WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:09.919 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, my friend 2 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.199 Riki Hayashi, our new co host, and I are diving into the question 3 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:19.079 of can pirates be heroes? Can piracy be a victimless crime. We're doing 4 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:22.640 this all through the lens of the one piece show, both the anime and 5 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:25.239 the recent live action, and we're gonna have a lot to say about that. 6 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:28.640 But first, as I said, we love listener feedback, and Riki, 7 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.280 we got a great piece of feedback from our one of our friends named 8 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:37.640 Rachel, and she wrote Rachel here pronounced she. They First off, I 9 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:41.039 wanted to say thanks for your amazing podcast and your super speedy and in depth 10 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:44.600 coverage of Avatar. We did two episodes a day for four days, so 11 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.640 I'm very glad to know that was appreciated. Overall, agree with a lot 12 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.439 of what you have what you have said. I think the casting has been 13 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:55.840 brilliant across the board, and they absolutely nailed Momo and Appa. I love 14 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.039 getting to see scenes we never got in the original. The highlight to me 15 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:03.079 was Zuko's agne with his father. I wanted to email specifically about the gender 16 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.159 presentations and intentional choices to remove some of the misogyny from the show. As 17 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:11.200 you mentioned, wanting some femin perspectives, we very much doo, so thank 18 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.239 you. Overall, I've been really on board with a decision to remove Socca's 19 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:15.840 overt misogyny from the show, and I don't feel that this was a key 20 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:21.439 ingredient to the story by any means, but all in caps, I feel 21 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:25.840 that in taking this out, they've also been inadvertently or intentionally taking out all 22 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.439 of the traditionally unseen and underappreciated women's labor that Katara did growing up in Wolf 23 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.799 Cove. In the animated version, it's a key point that while Soaka has 24 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.920 dealt with the pressure of protecting the village, Katara has been raising children, 25 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:45.040 cooking and cleaning literally Sokka's underwear, and doing invisible emotional labor for the village 26 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:48.280 the whole time too. This goes on to be a key part of her 27 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:52.200 character in later seasons when there's an arc about how her motherliness and the fact 28 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.319 that she feels such a responsibility to be a caretaker because that's the role responsibility 29 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.280 she had to take up at home. So while I really like the work 30 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.599 they've done on Soccau, I really feel like they could have removed his overt 31 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:07.639 misogyny without also removing aspects of the patriarchy that really actively shaped Katara's character. 32 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.639 In short, I think they improved Snacha's character at what I think was a 33 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:16.439 totally unnecessary cost to Katara's. This particular rewrite has a real, written by 34 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:21.439 a man vibe to it from my perspective. Having said that, I really 35 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.840 love the show and I've already watched it twice and will likely watch it a 36 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:27.000 bunch more. Sorry for the length, don't worry, we love all our 37 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.360 thoughts. Just had a bunch of feelings to share, and thanks so much 38 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:30.479 for all you do. Love the cast and keep it up. Rachel. 39 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:42.240 Awesome, Thank you so much Rachel for that in depth feedback. And hello 40 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.199 Matthew. Yeah, good to be here again. Good to see you too. 41 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.400 Yeah. What do you think what Rachel had to say? I want 42 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:53.120 to I want to briefly. I want to briefly touch upon what they mentioned 43 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:58.840 at the beginning about Zuko's agney kai, and I know it's not the main 44 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:02.080 point, but I agree that the action was good, and I think they 45 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:08.680 replaced an agne kai between Zuko and Joo with having more action in that one, 46 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:15.599 but it was It was interesting to me because in this version, in 47 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:20.159 the live action version, Zuko holds first off, holds his own and it's 48 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:25.960 actually appears to be defeating Ozi and then stops because it's his father. He's 49 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.719 like, he's not going to do like this, not killing blow, but 50 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:35.680 you know, very harmful blow and that, and Ozi takes advantage of that 51 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.520 and strikes back, and then that's his lesson, right, like weakness, 52 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:46.240 you can never show weakness. And in the original animated version, Zuko doesn't 53 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.759 even fight. He just supplicates himself, bows down and says, it was 54 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.919 not my intention to dishonor you father, please, like, don't do this. 55 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:58.400 And it was much I don't know, it seems like that version seemed 56 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:03.840 harsher. Yeah, that so it's a balance. I'm not sure which I 57 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.280 like better. I know, I've heard opinions both ways. They're but they're 58 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.319 very different. And how they portray that relationship between the two of them. 59 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.560 Yeah, I think if they had just switched it to do something different would 60 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:19.560 have felt weird. I think Zuko and his father's relationship is just overall quite 61 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:24.279 different, and so I think that this fit that interpretation and you can decide 62 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.600 which one you like more. To Rachel's main point, though, I really 63 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.759 love it and I think you're right for me, at least I think as 64 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.959 a masculine person, someone raised as a man. It is something I totally 65 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:41.040 missed, and in particular, we do see in the live action at the 66 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:46.000 end of the season that the women at first feel like that they shouldn't be 67 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:48.480 fighters and the guitar shouldn't be a fighter because they have a role to do 68 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.199 too, and that they're they're sort of perspective of like the men fight and 69 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.560 we do the teaching, and they're both equal, and why is katar A 70 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.720 getting so upset about this? And that was an interesting take on it, 71 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.720 and I think still is a very kind of sexist way of looking at it, 72 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:06.959 in patriarchal, but just with a more like, you know, separate 73 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.959 put equal kind of thing, which is bad but different than the purely hierarchical. 74 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.120 But I think that it definitely was missing something and I really love reach 75 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.399 to the point because definitely that mothering aspect that she has to take on, 76 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:27.480 and also just her frustration. I think that Sokka, we spend so much 77 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.680 time talking about all the pressure that was on him, but no one really 78 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.160 looks at the pressure that was on Katara is such a big part of her 79 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.959 character that, Yeah, I think it's unfortunate that that kind of got left 80 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:42.439 out as muchs it did. I completely agree with you and Rachel. I 81 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.439 think Katara live action Katara is probably the character that was done the most dirty 82 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.759 in this version in terms of all of it. I mean we talked about 83 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:57.800 her the lack of showing her development as a water bender, right, I 84 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:00.720 mean they only showed very brief glimpse, and they left out the whole her 85 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:08.959 helping to train Aang in water bending, which leads to her growing in her 86 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.360 mastery. So the whole scene where she confronts Zuko at the end and he's 87 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:15.360 like, I see you found a master and she's like, yeah, it's 88 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:20.759 me. It was like a girl Boss moment as written, but did not 89 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:26.240 feel earned because we did not get the sense of her becoming a master. 90 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.199 I mean it just kind of like was very rushed and all of that. 91 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:35.319 I think, like Sokka's lack of misogyny in the live action is a part 92 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:42.680 of that, because seeing her grow through his lens and his respect for her 93 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.480 change, and his understanding of her change was it was all part of that. 94 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.560 So no, you don't need him to be like as overtly misogynist. 95 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:56.120 But I think by taking that out, by ramping that down, they have 96 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:01.759 inadvertently just again like done Qatar dirty as a character in terms of her development. 97 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:05.560 Yeah, it's like it's kind of ironic. I it also takes a 98 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.920 lot away from his dynamic with Suki, you know, because again, it 99 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:12.040 doesn't have to be that he's overt about it in any way. It can 100 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.279 just be that he's internalized the teachings of his home, you know. So 101 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:23.079 yeah, and it's not he was like animated Sokka. Yes, like it 102 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.240 is a noted part of his character. But I think it was just like 103 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.480 with Suki, was a couple of lines like oh, like women can't be 104 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.040 warriors or something like that, and then she like throws them to the grounds 105 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:36.680 like oh okay, wait maybe they can. Yeah, and it was it 106 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:42.279 was pretty quick. I think, I believe like their interaction and his turn 107 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:48.879 because you know that their interactions were kind of brief, but it's I mean, 108 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:55.279 yeah, I don't know, I feel like it was missing and it's 109 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:59.160 not important to his character, but it was a part of it. So 110 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:01.439 yeah, I think I'm more okay with not having it there. But I 111 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.600 think that, you know, as Rachel points out, like there's knock on 112 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.800 effects there that we just don't wind up seeing. So thank you Rachel for 113 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.639 the great feedback. We love something like that. Please keep sending more. 114 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.800 We'll probably do a full feedback episode at some point on Avatar. But now 115 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.480 on to our main question. But now on to our main episode. As 116 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.879 we talked about, as we talked about a bit last week, one thing 117 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:30.519 Ricky and I have really wanted to do is bring the focus of these episodes 118 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:35.080 a little more back to specific questions that was the focus for a long time. 119 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.879 More recently, I think we've gotten into more kind of like review type 120 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.000 stuff, which is still fun. We still may do that from time to 121 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.679 time, and we will probably have some more review type comments about the live 122 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.519 action one piece in our bonus member sect. But I think what we're gonna 123 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:52.279 be trying to do more often is take a central question of that often is 124 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.080 very inspired by one particular piece of media and kind of go with that. 125 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:00.519 And so today we want to talk about this idea of kind of be a 126 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:03.320 hero. Can a pirate be a you know, there's kind of quotes around 127 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.960 all these terms, and were talking about how we understand these terms, but 128 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.240 can a pirate be a good guy? I will be doing this a lot 129 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:15.759 through the lens of One Piece, because it's bazificly and asking us BASILICI when 130 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.120 I was watching One Piece, that was something I said to Riki a couple 131 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.559 of times, who had encouraged me to watch it. Was I would quote 132 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:24.799 lines from Loofy about how he doesn't want to steal or hurt people, and 133 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.039 you know, pirates don't have to be bad people, and I was like, 134 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.000 does does this guy understand what a pirate is? And I think that 135 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.519 joking question came this very much more serious discussion that we want to have of 136 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:41.200 because I think the topics of piracy and heroism and how we define these things 137 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:45.639 are kind of fundamental to a lot of the media we talk about. Soriki, 138 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.799 let me just start by why was this the a topic you were excited 139 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.679 about and the lens you wanted to look at One Piece through? Well? 140 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:58.320 First off, because I love One Piece. Yeah, and if you're looking 141 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:01.480 for a review, my one sentence or you is it's amazing, go watch 142 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:11.240 it. But in terms of this question, it's always fascinated Like pirates in 143 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:18.759 media has fascinated me for a long time, and particularly in One Piece, 144 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:26.799 Like clearly Loofy is a the protagonist and be the hero, right, because 145 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.320 those can be different things. Yeah, And in fact, like he is 146 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:39.960 probably one of the most heroic, altruistic protagonists we've ever seen in a in 147 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:46.200 an animated product, like I I can't it's hard to think of someone who 148 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:54.360 is like more fundamentally good than Lufy at his core, just like his innate 149 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.799 trust in people and belief in them. It's infectious, and I think that 150 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:03.639 is one of the things I love about the product. And the character is 151 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.559 at the end of this all, you know he's going to find the one 152 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.360 piece, Like it hasn't happened yet, but like we know that now that 153 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:13.480 we know, we know that's how the story has to end, right, 154 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:18.080 But there's a real sense that it's going to be. The whole meme of 155 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.159 the real treasure was the friends he made along the way, right, because 156 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.279 that like already, like in the first season of this live action you can 157 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.080 see how important his crewe and his friends are to him and that, like, 158 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:37.440 it's fundamental to his character. So yeah, I he's he's good, 159 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.039 he's a good pirate. And it's like what And I started asking myself, 160 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.799 like what does that mean? Right? And then in particular, in contrast 161 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.840 with in this world, in this universe, we have bad Marines, right, 162 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:54.639 The Marines are supposed to be the law of the see of the there's 163 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.840 a world government. I don't know that if there are any other nations beside 164 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.440 the world government, that there are like individual kingdoms, because there are kings 165 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.120 and stuff, but I think they are all under the authority of the world 166 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:13.759 government. So it's one central authority. And their military arm is the Marines, 167 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.080 and they purport to uphold justice in the world in the Japanese at Segi, 168 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.279 and they literally have the word written on the backs of their uniforms. 169 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh it's interesting. Yeah, and that gets on Yeah, yeah, please, 170 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.919 I would say, And that gets and that gets in all the questions 171 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:35.720 of who gets to define what justice is? And I think that's what we've 172 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:41.000 really talk about. I just want to hype. I just want to focus 173 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.600 a little bit more first on this question of what do we mean by a 174 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.399 pirate being a good guy? Being a hero or a good good woman. 175 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.519 You know, I mean kind of the media term good guy there, because 176 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.759 I think we do often get movies about pirates and any kind of you can 177 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:05.720 say larger you know, criminals who are protagonists and are the people we root 178 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.720 for but are not necessarily heroes, are heroic and certainly not necessarily people we 179 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.039 think of as like super altruistic, you know, people like Jack Sparrow to 180 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:18.159 take specific pirates, or Blackbeard in movies where he's the focus or kind of 181 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:26.679 pulling a wider lens, someone like The Godfather, or really the protagonist of 182 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:31.759 most movies about sort of mafia types or you know, criminal organizations where the 183 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.360 one group that is our protagonist is kind of our hero and we see them 184 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.759 like that you know, they're maybe not as bad as all the others, 185 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.960 or that you know, we understand and sympathize with how they got pulled into 186 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.120 this life of crime. But there's still not people would think of as like 187 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:50.240 Captain America moral paragon type things. And so let's kind of get into this 188 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:56.080 idea of what exactly do we mean by the word pirate and reak, because 189 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.559 I think one thing we also have to remember is that we're talking about pirate, 190 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.360 Like I think, let me start that again. We're talking about the 191 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.919 word pirate. It also has a number of different cultural context you know. 192 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.320 I mean today people use the word piracy to refer to like you know, 193 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:20.720 Yemenese sailors who are interfering with ships in the Red Sea and the golf down 194 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.120 there, to people who download software that they haven't paid for, to copyright 195 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.440 infringements to you know, I know a lot of people in the transgender movement 196 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.120 who've talked a lot. I know a lot of transgender folks who talk to 197 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.480 themselves about like gender pirates and all this kind of thing. And so there's 198 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.679 so many different definitions of pirate for you. And I think one thing also 199 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.799 is that we, as English speaking people are talking about a English language story, 200 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:54.039 the live action that originally comes from a Japanese language anime that comes from 201 00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:00.200 a Japanese language manga. So Riki is someone who has grown up in both 202 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:01.720 of those contacts that I love to to start from. You, what does 203 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:07.960 the word pirate mean to you? So In the Japanese, pirate is translated 204 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.559 as kaiso ku, which literally just means sea bandit. Yeah, that's the 205 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:20.759 characters it uses, and then it contrasts with Sanzoku is mountain bandit, which 206 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.320 I guess is just like a land pirate. I guess like or just we 207 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:31.080 would call it a bandit, but it's like to me like kaizoku and pirate 208 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.840 are the same thing, and especially like in terms of one Piece, the 209 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:43.960 visual esthetics the technological level of this universe are clearly based on like sixteen hundred 210 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.840 to seventeen hundred's like pirate era, like the Golden age of pirates that we 211 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:56.519 think of, and so like in that context, like a pirate is someone 212 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:04.759 who sails on the sea and basically like interrupts commerce by stealing from other ships 213 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:10.399 or from you know, landing on an island or a coastal town and stealing 214 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:18.200 from that town. And the interesting thing for me is historically piracy I think 215 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.759 would be something basically between nations, and of course we get the more direct 216 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:30.720 example of privateer who were state sanctioned or state sponsored pirates, like literally like 217 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.679 England would take go to pirates and say hey, we want you to work 218 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:42.720 for us and only attack Spanish ships and villages. Yeah, So in the 219 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.960 context of one Piece, it's weird because there's only the world government. So 220 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:53.440 yeah, like the pirates we would think of traditionally probably disrupt the commerce of 221 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.240 the world government, you know, steal from them, fight the marines, 222 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:03.600 and and so like they are bad, bad guys, you know, villains 223 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.160 from the perspective of the world government. So what does it mean to be 224 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.559 a good pirate? I think it's essentially pirates who take from other pirates, 225 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:18.319 right, the idea, like you steal rob from other people who are doing 226 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:23.359 harm. Yeah, you're not ever hurting innocent people, right exactly. And 227 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.000 that's a term that does come up a couple of times in the live action 228 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:32.319 one Pieces Innocent people. I think Loofy has a conversation with Kobe, the 229 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.400 young man who wants to become a marine and eventually does, and they talk 230 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.039 about in This Is Kobe is like, I want to be a marine to 231 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:44.920 protectness in people. And I think there's a conversation they have discussing a bad, 232 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.880 bad marine, and Loufy's like, he's not protecting innocent people. It's 233 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.440 like, you're right, Like he's he's he's not a he's not a good 234 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:56.880 marine, right. And Kobe, we also learned from his first meeting he 235 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.279 has internalized this idea that pirates are inherently bad. At one point, he 236 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.039 says, when he first met Loofy, and Lufy has said, I want 237 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.039 to be a pirate, and Kobe says pirates are scum, they are thieves 238 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.720 and murderers, and Lufy says, not the pirates I know. And I 239 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.839 think from at the very beginning, they're really trying to say, this is 240 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.519 not your grandfather's piracy. This is not the kind of piracy that people think 241 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:29.480 of necessarily. And there's there's like two instances where the idea behind a Loofy 242 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.519 as a good pirate, I think is defined as like what what does he 243 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.759 want? He wants freedom and he wants adventure, and I think those are 244 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.720 also outlined kind of in the intro and they talk about gold Roger. It's 245 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.480 like it opened up an era of the age of pirates, of adventure and 246 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:56.279 freedom. And that's and if you look at Lufy's mentor figure Shanks, you 247 00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.519 know he would be another example of a good pirate. Right the scenes, 248 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:07.960 we are shown he fights against the in the manga it's a sanzoku, it's 249 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:15.680 a mountain bandit and saves Loofy and saves like the the bartender of this bar 250 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:22.960 that they frequent, right, and he's never shown taking from the village that 251 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.920 they stop at. And in fact that it seems like they engage in like 252 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.440 completely legal and up and up commerce with that that I resupply there, but 253 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:40.599 somewhere somewhere out there when they go out on their adventures, they're presumably stealing 254 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:45.079 from someone because because he's presented as a good pirate, probably from other pirates, 255 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.119 from bad pirates who have been taking from other people, right, And 256 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.119 I do think he's not perfect about that, which is little discussed later, 257 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:57.079 but just taking on this idea for a bit, one of the things that 258 00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:03.960 I think is really essential to this version of piracy is the idea of you 259 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:08.000 know, what does it mean to have a moral code when the law of 260 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.400 the land is actually not moral? And so that where you know, the 261 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.119 difference between do you follow the rules or do you follow your understanding of what 262 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:25.880 you think is right becomes really stark and in that regard, and in that 263 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.920 regard, one of the things that comes to mind from me. Although the 264 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.440 word pirate isn't really used very often, I think at one point they may 265 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:37.039 describe themselves as such is Malcolm Reynolds in the cast of Firefly, where for 266 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.599 him that he has very similar desires. He wants to be free, he 267 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:44.920 wants to be able to do his own thing, to do what he wants 268 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.359 without someone else looking over him. And I think he is a little more 269 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.519 morally gray than Lufy is, but a lot of it is the same. 270 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.039 It's a very oppressive system that wants to tell people what to do and say 271 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:57.200 you can do this, and you can do that, and nothing else, 272 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.680 and he just wants to be able to do his own thing. Like there's 273 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.400 giving an American context, which is very much true Firefly, but it's very 274 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:07.559 much I think the romanticism of the Old West or of you know, some 275 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.720 of those other ideas that you know that the end, every man is his 276 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:19.400 own captain, every person gets to do their own thing. Yeah. And 277 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:26.400 I think one of the things that at least I have not really gotten out 278 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:32.559 of one piece is why the world government is so bad. M hmm. 279 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.200 That's right. I think there have been hints of it, of it being 280 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:44.960 kind of there's like an aristrata, aristocratic class who has shown to be like 281 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:52.160 very classist and racist and oppressive, so that that's something that comes in later, 282 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.039 but at least in terms of like right now, it's like, I 283 00:21:55.079 --> 00:22:00.920 don't know, like we identify with Loofy because he's the protagonist, and by 284 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.960 extension, we kind of are supposed to hate the world government and hate the 285 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.480 Marines, right, although we're presented I think we're presented with good examples of 286 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:15.799 marines in this season, Like we get we get bad marines, we get 287 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.000 axe Hand, and then we get Nezumi is like bad marines, and then 288 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.680 Garf is presented as an example of a good marine. And I really love 289 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:33.319 their interactions because Garf is Loufy's I mean spoilers for the show, right, 290 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:40.559 Garf is Lufy's grandfather, right, and always wanted him to become a marine 291 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:45.160 and opposed him becoming a pirate because of his own code. But by the 292 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.160 end of the season, like he sees that Loufy is honoring that code to 293 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.839 some degree lets him go because of that. Yeah, part of how I 294 00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.680 saw it is that, I mean, I kind of saw it through a 295 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:07.559 superhero lens, where often our hero is someone who has to go outside the 296 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:14.359 law, in part because the actual government is either unable or unwilling to deal 297 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.720 with the problems and so our hero feels like they have to do it. 298 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.960 And that could be everything from something where the government is fairly benign to like 299 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.920 Spider Man, to something where the government is you know, outwardly corrupt, 300 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.519 especially the law enforcement like Batman. Both of those are criminals. For both 301 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:36.000 of those are to somethinger and other heroes, And I think I kind of 302 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:41.160 saw and again I've only seen the live action Eureki, have much more experience 303 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.559 of the manga and the anime, but I think I kind of saw the 304 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:49.319 primary falls of the world government is that it kind of like Jonah Jamerson or 305 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:55.920 you know, Commissioner Gordon early in the story, in that they see Loofy 306 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.920 and the much more evil pirates, Well, they're both breaking the laws. 307 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.480 They're both equally bad. And you know, when you talked about kind of 308 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:08.000 the end the change that Gart makes, to me, it feels a lot 309 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.000 like what Commissioner Gordon goes through becoming to understand in some versions of the story 310 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:18.880 that some like Lufy or Batman is acting outside of the law, but he's 311 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.519 not doing harm and it's actually doing a lot of good in a lot of 312 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.799 ways. That they the sort of more establishment law enforcement types can't. And 313 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.000 just to be clear, I want to say that, like a lot of 314 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.480 what I'm saying here is very vigilanteist. Some of them think, how I'm 315 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.079 describing Loofy as kind of libertarian, I'm necessarily saying I'm in favor of all 316 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.079 of those things. I'm saying that this is I think the moral argument the 317 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.440 show is making. Well, yeah, I would absolutely classify Loofy as a 318 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.920 libertarian. Right, the idea of freedom, like personal freedom, and then 319 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.799 but the way that he projects that, like with his power, is that 320 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:59.319 he never uses his personal freedom and his strength as a as a fighter or 321 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.640 as a pirate crew to oppress other people. And in fact, he only 322 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.920 uses his power to fight against oppressors, whether they are marines or pirates. 323 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.440 Yeah, and yeah, in terms in terms of like the what the world 324 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.920 government is doing, that's bad. I think what they're they're doing, or 325 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.920 that they're not doing, is they're they're not handling the pirate problem, right 326 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:32.640 despite everything, a like their own forces aren't strong enough. So the the 327 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:37.279 character of Drakul Mihawk, the Greatest Swordsman, is called one of the Warlords 328 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:42.799 of the Sea, the Seven war Lords and he is essentially a privateer. 329 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.960 He is someone who has been contracted by the world government to hunt down other 330 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:55.400 pirates. Right. And then on the other side you have the example of 331 00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:00.880 the I mentioned Nazumi, the marine who basically takes brad vibes from yeah, 332 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.319 I mean he does. He takes bribes from our long the Fisherman pirate to 333 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:08.400 turn the other way. And so like that's a clear example of where the 334 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:14.519 world government is failing. And then Garb comes along and finds all this corruption 335 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.039 and Lufi has like dealt with the pirates and it's like you kind of did 336 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.759 my job for me, so I'm gonna let you go right well, And 337 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.640 this is I think really interesting because one of the questions that I kept coming 338 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:33.559 up with is who gets to define who is a pirate? Because reading through 339 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.839 a lot of the history both in kind of the Western like you talked about 340 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.119 the Golden Age of piracy, and I think when we're talking about that, 341 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.880 we're mostly is talking among Western nations. A lot of it's in the Caribbean, 342 00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.440 a lot of it's off the coast of Spain and England. There is 343 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:48.920 some of it, you know, in the Far East, but mostly like 344 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:56.400 the history of banditry and on the sea and stuff like that. Is in 345 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.000 Japan and China. There's different words that are used. And this great article 346 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:06.000 I'm gonna link to in the show notes about all that and one of but 347 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.480 one of the things that one was reading about, there's a word I'm not 348 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:14.079 gonna be the translated properly. I think it's wahou in Mandarin, but it 349 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:18.000 basically was a word that was used specifically to refer to and because if you 350 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.599 search for piracy in Japan, this is often will come up first because it 351 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.599 specifically was a Chinese word and then a Korean version of it for raiders who 352 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:33.079 they associated with coming from the Japanese archipelago. And the article goes into how 353 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.000 that often wasn't correct and at times it was maybe only thirty percent of the 354 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.559 people were actually from Japan and a number of the things like that. But 355 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.000 one thing he talks about a lot is that it would be the people who 356 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:47.400 felt like they had been attacked would call people this word that you know is 357 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.279 understood to be pirates or not seed bandit the word you used. And as 358 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.720 for example, they talk about how like people who came as merchants, but 359 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:57.960 then later people felt like they'd gotten a bad deal out of it. We 360 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:03.640 were often referred to as pirates and things like that, and so kind of 361 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.640 what I see happening in this world, looking at this lens of this question 362 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:11.000 of who gets to define what a pirate is, it feels to me like 363 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.599 what has happened is that there are people who are what we think of primarily 364 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.559 as pirates in terms of the bad usage of that term. They are, 365 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.680 you know, raiding villages and stealing from other ships and hurting people and killing 366 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.839 people all that stuff. The world government in that sort of like you know, 367 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.440 attacking a fleet with a warhammer kind of idea of painting with a very 368 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:37.319 broad bush brush, starts calling anyone who is not obeying the world government completely, 369 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.480 who's you know, working for their freedom instead of their authority and is 370 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.519 connected to the sea in any way a pirate. And so for someone like 371 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.200 Loofy, it almost feels like he's kind of reclaiming the word like the way 372 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:52.559 like you know, a lot of like queer communities have reclaimed that word specifically 373 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.960 or other words like that, where it's like, yeah, I want to 374 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.000 be free and I've grown up learning that that means I'm a pirate, And 375 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.559 so he's kind of like redefining the term in a lot of ways and saying, 376 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.880 like I can be this People were originally saying pirate means outlaw and bad 377 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.960 persons. But in this world where any kind of freedom is outlawed, then 378 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:18.640 I yeah, I can be a pirate too. Yeah, absolutely, Like 379 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:25.799 Loofy is not just redefining the word, but he is redefining the world, 380 00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:30.319 right. I mean, that's the scope of this character ultimately. I mean 381 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:37.000 it starts off small, but I think it's gonna I don't I don't know 382 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.440 how it's gonna end, but somehow, like he's going to come into conflict 383 00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:47.519 with the world government, right, Like I don't know if he's going to 384 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:52.319 topple it or change it or just like beat the beat their strongest warriors and 385 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:56.440 walk away. Right that that seems like kind of maybe what he would do. 386 00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:02.000 It's like, yeah, I'm just gonna to be your strongest warriors because 387 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.319 you're impeding my freedom. And then one I defeats you, like I don't 388 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:08.680 want to be king, Like he wants to be King of the pirates, 389 00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.640 but he doesn't want to be the King of the world right. He doesn't 390 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.720 want to govern, He just wants to be on the sea. There's another 391 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.359 great article I read that'll also link in the show notes called freedom, Heroism, 392 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.240 and the Definition of Pirate in One Piece by Sean Atchinson, and I 393 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:26.720 think he wrote. It's on crunchyroll dot com and I think this was written 394 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:34.359 before the live actions. It's mostly talking about the manga and anime, and 395 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:38.759 he writes to explore, to see new places and experience new islands, meet 396 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:44.319 interesting people, salety unknown, eat new foods, make great friends. These 397 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:47.440 are the things Loofy wants, and finding the One Piece and becoming King of 398 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.920 the Pirates is just the endpoint of his thirst for a venture and freedom. 399 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.240 Lufy says as much in chapter five oh seven, episode four hundred of One 400 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.039 Piece. Riley asks him if he can really rule as a pirate king, 401 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.480 and Lufy responds with I'm not going to rule anything. It's the freest person 402 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.000 in the sea who's king of the pirates. And I really appreciated that because 403 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.319 I think that is one thing that I was confused by by the show, 404 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:18.200 because I can sort of get under the idea of a pirate who is not 405 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:19.759 our definition of pirate. But then I kept hearing him say I want to 406 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.240 be king of the pirates, and I would think, so, does that 407 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.880 mean you don't want any freedom for anyone else who's a pirate? Like, 408 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:27.319 if you're a king, aren't you a ruler? Don't you have some authority 409 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:32.200 over them? And so it's interesting that again it feels like he's saying it 410 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:37.119 not in the king as in the actual ruling monarch of this world of piracy, 411 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.799 but more like the way you can say, like you know, someone 412 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.440 is the king of lightsaber sales, or someone is the king. You know, 413 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.400 it's it's to be the best, to be the epitome, to be 414 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.920 the pinnacle of that particular thing. And that's what he means by king. 415 00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:01.000 Yeah, the way I imagine him ruling is that he's he doesn't conquer anyone, 416 00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:07.400 but people follow him because they admire him so much, right, Like 417 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:09.440 that's how his character is built, That's how his crew has been built, 418 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:14.279 Like he kind of forces them that he his crew. At first, he's 419 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:15.759 like, you're going to be on my crew. I was saying, like, 420 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.960 one of the freedoms he doesn't really believe in is the freedom of other 421 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.759 people to say no we're not a crew. But the conceit, the conceit 422 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.720 of his character is that he's always right, right, and that's just something 423 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.480 you have to accept. But it is also like he is right in an 424 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:37.200 inspiring way, like he inspires his crew crewmates, right, he liberates their 425 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:42.440 crewmates in some cases, like from their past shackles and trauma. It helps 426 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.359 them and says, I am going to support your goal if you support my 427 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:52.319 goal. Right, the Zoro's goal is to become the greatest swordsman. He's 428 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.039 like, well, I'm going to help you do that, like, because 429 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.720 you know you're my first mate. If you're not the greatest swordsman, you 430 00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.799 can't be my first mate. Yeah, And that's I think that's what I 431 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.240 love about it, And that's what makes this end goal of King of the 432 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:10.680 Pirates kind of interesting because yeah, like obviously he's the protagonist. He's going 433 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.519 to end up becoming King of the Pirates, but it's not going to be 434 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:20.880 as you say, like he's not going to be like this warlord who controls 435 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:23.920 everything. He's just going to be out there still like the same person having 436 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:28.799 a good time. And as long as you are having a good time and 437 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.079 not I guess impeding other people from having a good time by stealing from them, 438 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:38.519 He's okay with them. Yeah, And it's an interesting philosophical ethos because 439 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:45.039 if everyone follows that, we're good, right, right, and in fact 440 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:46.720 we're bored because then there's no one left to fight. If no one is 441 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:51.319 stealing from anyone, then the good guys don't have anyone to steal from and 442 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.599 fight. But you know that we're never going to be in that idealized world. 443 00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:00.359 There will always be bad people for Loofy to fight. Is kind of 444 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.759 the point, And there's a lot there that I want to unpack because I 445 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.359 think that that's both a lot of what I love by his character and also 446 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.119 what kind of makes me fearful of him in the same way I'm fearful of 447 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:14.039 Libertaranism in general, as well as anyone who claims to believe that they know 448 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.280 what is objectively right or wrong or good or bad, either in general or 449 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.400 for specific people. But first, I am curious. We talked a bit 450 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:27.159 about the word pirate. Talk to me about the word king in Japanese. 451 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:31.199 Because I'm by no means an expert, but in my study of Japanese history, 452 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.280 I often see reference to an emperor or other times a shogun or other 453 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:39.440 kind of leaders. I've never seen much discussion of there being someone that is 454 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.239 translated to king, and I'm just kind of curious, like what is the 455 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:46.800 word that you do? Do you know offhand, what is the word that's 456 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:50.880 used that he wants to be and is is it just kind of like the 457 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.039 Japanese word for how you'd refer to Henry the eighth or is something different and 458 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:59.559 kind of what's that concept like coming from a Japanese perspective. Yeah, I 459 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:04.239 mean the word they use is kaisa ku ol the kaisaku pirate, and then 460 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:09.000 ol is from osama, which is just king. Okay, you're right, 461 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:15.920 I don't I cannot think of like a historical example where a ruler in Japan 462 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:21.000 would have been in ol sama. So it could be a word that is 463 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:27.320 just used to refer to outside nations kings, even though like it is a 464 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:30.880 Japanese word, it's not like a word we took from as far as I 465 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:37.880 know, from another language, because there there's kanji for it. So yeah, 466 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:39.880 that's interesting. I never thought about it that way, but yeah, 467 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:45.679 old sama and then the sama is just the suffix the honorific suffix. So 468 00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:52.320 ol is king. I'm not really sure what to think about that right now. 469 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.920 Yeah, Well, and certainly if other people are listening and they have 470 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:59.599 more thoughts on this right in, because certainly you're telling us that it is 471 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:05.239 the Japanese word for kings specifically, does help I think a lot, and 472 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.079 that it does not only at least that that king is an accurate translation there, 473 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:10.280 but yeah, to me, it's an important thing to think about about 474 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:15.320 how these things can be in such different contexts and stuff like that, especially, 475 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:16.360 you know, because I think pirate is also a word just like that. 476 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:24.320 So let's get back to this idea of the philosophy of it of and 477 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.920 again pulling out at the larger and then talking more specifically about loofy in general. 478 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:35.559 How do you tend to react to characters who will say everyone else's idea 479 00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:38.239 of right and wrong is they don't understand. I know what's right and wrong, 480 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.719 and so I'm gonna follow my own lead do what I think is right, 481 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:45.920 and if someone tells me I'm wrong, I'm not gonna let them stop 482 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:54.519 me. Sorry. What was the original question, Oh, just your reaction 483 00:36:54.599 --> 00:37:02.480 to characters who have that kind of a perspective reaction is that they they better 484 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:10.280 be good. Yeah, And I think I've mentioned attack on Titan in the 485 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:17.199 past with you, but that that protagonist just goes off the rails and is 486 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:23.840 like a bad evil. It's an evil character, and yet he's the protagonist. 487 00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:30.679 And I think that's what makes Lufy magical is that he has always been 488 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:36.519 good, Like He's had some interesting quandaries and moments, but they are not 489 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:44.400 related to him being evil or bad or they pertain to his lack of character 490 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.480 as a captain like that, I think that is the place where his ethics 491 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:57.360 are questioned the most in his story is that he does something that maybe hurts 492 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:01.519 someone, like hurts a member of his crew emotionally sometimes physically, like they 493 00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:08.679 fight all the time, but he has to do it because that's captain's responsibility. 494 00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:15.360 And I think that's that's the most bad or evil like his character is 495 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:21.360 portrayed as and other than that, like he's just this paragone. And I 496 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:28.280 think with a character like this whose ethos is I just want to be free 497 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.559 and I want everyone to be free, but just don't do bad stuff like 498 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:36.840 he has, he has to be like almost perfect, right, like morally 499 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:42.559 perfect. Otherwise that doesn't work. Otherwise other people are not going to follow 500 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.360 him willingly. It's like, well, I kind of disagree with you on 501 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:50.480 this like type of thing. And it's it's very black and white, but 502 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.400 I think it's done in a it's done in a well written and beautiful way. 503 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:57.079 Yeah, in a lot of ways. I see him a lot like 504 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:00.719 Captain America and that scene from Civil War and she says, you know, 505 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.280 even when everyone else says you're wrong, you know you're right. You know 506 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:08.159 you say you move. And I think I have kind of the same reaction 507 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.679 to him that I have to Captain America, which is, yes, I 508 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:19.320 believe that you are enough of paragon of morality that I trust that you are 509 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.159 going to be right. And most of the time, in Lovie's case, 510 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:23.719 I think he actually makes him real. He has some real sort of gaps 511 00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:28.840 in his moral wisdom that we'll talk about in a little bit. Papa, 512 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:30.039 I think, is getting a lot better about that, and we've seen CAP's 513 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:37.159 evolution about it in earlier movies. But part of why Captain America terrifies me 514 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.760 when he says that, and I have a similar reaction, I think to 515 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:44.920 Loofy is, like you said, it's not only that the people who follow 516 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.199 again, like you said, the people who follow him have to be just 517 00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.639 as moral or not even to follow him in terms of being part of his 518 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.039 crew. But the other people who say, oh, Loofy can do whatever 519 00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.400 he thinks he's right, Well, I'm going to do the same thing too. 520 00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:01.039 And yet what they think right is that they be well taken care of. 521 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:05.039 So if someone has stuff that they want, well they should take it, 522 00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:09.159 you know. I think in many ways that's how you see Loofy is 523 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:16.320 and opoint. Also, I have a bias in that Lufy is portrayed in 524 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.360 the live action at least, and I don't think this is true in the 525 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:24.960 other versions as a kind of character that I don't think is bad or wrong, 526 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.400 and I think I don't think people are bad or wrong to enjoy it. 527 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.159 I personally don't find it pleasant to see on screen the kind of super 528 00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:37.239 exuberance, the like yelling and screaming every time he does something good, the 529 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.400 naming his moves, and you know, the just like yep, I've at 530 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.599 our confidence. I don't care what anyone else thinks. I don't'm gonna do 531 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:51.519 it I just don't like people like that, either in person or in the 532 00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.199 stuff I watch. So I have that bias, and that's my own bias. 533 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.039 And you know, maybe you're the therapy will help me fix it, 534 00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:01.159 who knows. But the actual failings that I think I see al most often 535 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.039 with Loofy, that I think I also see a lot. And this is 536 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.599 where for me the libertarian comment comes in, is it feels like a lot 537 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:13.360 of the time he's not aware of who he might be hurting because I think 538 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:15.679 you're right, he wants to steal from bad people. He wants to steal 539 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:19.679 from institutions and things like that. You know, to give just one example, 540 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:23.440 I think stealing food for subsistence, Like, that's not something I'm ever 541 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:28.639 going to come down on. But one episode, he takes his crew into 542 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:32.360 a fairly fancy restaurant and you know, orders a huge amount of food for 543 00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:38.079 he and his friends, and uh, you know orders you know, the 544 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:42.159 most extravagant things on the menu, and he has no idea how he's going 545 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.800 to pay. He's like, I don't I don't have any want to pay. 546 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.360 What's the big deal? And that well, no he sees he says, 547 00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:52.440 put it on my treasure tab I think is the phrase they use, 548 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.119 right, because you think he has this idea that he's going to have all 549 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.239 this money one day and so everyone should believe him. Yeah theory, right, 550 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:06.920 like if you're a pirate and you frequently find treasure and yeah, like, 551 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.440 hey, I don't have any right now, but you know I'm good 552 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:13.760 for it, right, But that only works if anyone has any reason that 553 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.760 he's good for it, and he does, right. And it's weird because 554 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.920 he's very much not a person who has privilege, but I feel like he 555 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.480 acts in a way as though he acts in a way that feels like he's 556 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:28.880 been very spoiled and very entitled in terms of he always assumes everyone around him 557 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:30.719 is going to be just as hopeful as he is, or even more important, 558 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.880 that they're gonna believe that. And to me, and that's just stealing. 559 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.440 Like the restaurant seems like it's a decent place, Like I mean, 560 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:39.639 I'm not supporting big business here, it's not. But it's not like a 561 00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:44.159 huge chain that's oppressing people. It's just a restaurant with a pretty awesome guy 562 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:50.239 who was the chef there and the assistant chef, so It's just one example, 563 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.000 but I think that's the kind of thing where it felt to me like 564 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:57.199 for Loofy to make sense, he has to have, like you said, 565 00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.360 he has to have that perfect moral compass, and I felt like at least 566 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:01.400 in season one and he doesn't have that yet. And maybe that's the point 567 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:07.719 is he gets that and that's awesome, but there's that. Another example to 568 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.039 me is where we got a joke before, we kind of talked a little 569 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:19.079 bit before about how he tells everyone they're gonna be on his crew, and 570 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.719 as you said, it's because he winds up being right that that is what 571 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:27.320 they want. Well, maybe or that he actually doesn't incredibly strong personality and 572 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.199 can talk people in anything. Because again, to me, when someone says 573 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:36.239 I know what other people want better than they do, so I'm gonna get 574 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:38.440 them to do it, that that to me is not something that leads to 575 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:46.000 good places. Well, I think in terms of the way his character is 576 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:54.039 portrayed or written, he does seem to have the perfect humpass in terms of 577 00:43:54.079 --> 00:44:02.960 reading people h whether either whether whether it comes to joining his crew or just 578 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.719 punching their lights out, I can't remember if it's portrayed in this one, 579 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:15.960 but I recall in my head something where he just like punches someone and it's 580 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:20.159 not even fully established yet that the person he punched is a villain. But 581 00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:22.280 it's like, why did you do that? And he's like, I don't 582 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:28.400 know, they bothered me. Yeah, So I mean that's the manga side 583 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:34.760 of it, like it's comical, and they play his naivy tae to comedy 584 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.960 a lot of the times. I want to go back real quick to what 585 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:42.920 you mentioned about Captain America because it struck a nerve for me. I don't 586 00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:45.800 know it struck a nerve, but it rang a bell for me when you 587 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:51.360 compare the Loofy to Captain America, right, the quote you said. And 588 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:58.239 then in Civil War the movie, his personal failing by the end of it 589 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:04.840 is that he lied to his friend Tony Stark about Bucky being the assassin that 590 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.480 killed his parents. And I think, like what I mentioned about upcoming Loofy 591 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:14.599 stories, like not going to spoil the specifics, but like that's his moral 592 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:20.880 failing is like when he holds something back from his friends, right, And 593 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:25.199 I think, like, I don't know, like that just made a very 594 00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:31.960 interesting contrast of like I never thought about Captain America and Loofy as parallels. 595 00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:36.800 So I appreciate that. Yeah, well, I think it's awesome because, 596 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:39.280 like for me, I'm I wasn't even thinking about that. I was thinking 597 00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:43.840 just of the conflict at the beginning of the movie, where you know, 598 00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:47.239 it is this question of should someone have moral oversight or should ethical or legal 599 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:52.280 oversight over the Avengers and his position is no, we know best what to 600 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:59.000 do. And you know, and I've spoken a lot about Captain America and 601 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.159 my thoughts about other places sys I don't want get into this with everly, 602 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:05.480 but yeah, I think you're right. I think what you're getting at there, 603 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.599 I think is maybe a better way of kind of pulling this back to 604 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.440 the philosophy of all. Of course, I love freedom, of course, 605 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.079 I love the idea of everyone getting to do exactly what they want. But 606 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:19.599 you know, there's that old quote that the freedom to swing my arm ends 607 00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:25.440 when my arm hits your face. And I feel like the problem that I 608 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:30.320 so often have with people like Loofy or libertarians or whatever you want to call 609 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:35.719 it, is how areware are they of the actual harm they're doing to others? 610 00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:38.480 And so I think that's why I kind of have a knee jerk response 611 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:43.639 of being very critical of it, and it even if it's an idea that 612 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.760 like someone like Captain America or Loofy is that paragon who can do it. 613 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.679 Loofy seemed to believe that everyone can do it and that to be just fundamentally 614 00:46:52.719 --> 00:47:01.440 wrong and that every one should be free. Is that what you're saying, 615 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:07.719 Pree in the way that he thinks in terms of like there isn't any overarching 616 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:14.239 authority or structure of I guess to me where I kind of come And this 617 00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:15.679 is now kind of getting into political philosophy, but I think it's kind of 618 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:22.840 where we're going with the whole show. I'm a strong believer that the idea 619 00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:30.400 of when does my freedom become an infringement on someone else's freedom is such a 620 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:36.679 complicated question, with so many things that any individual person might not see or 621 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.840 might not want to see, and so many dangers of individual bias coming in 622 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:47.760 that I tend to lean towards thee Like if the extremes are everyone decides for 623 00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:52.559 themselves and one world government decides for everybody else. Both of those I think 624 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:58.599 are awful, but I lean a little bit more towards community and societies and 625 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:04.599 cultures coming together to help everyone understand what's the best way to see freedom is 626 00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:12.880 not imprinting against someone else's freedom rather than all being individuals like Loofy. Yeah, 627 00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:19.239 I don't. It's hard. It's hard to paint with such broad rushes 628 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:24.159 with this product. I mean, because it's it's very simplistic, right, 629 00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:29.960 And for me, that's the point, and that's why I enjoy it. 630 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:36.119 I know, like there are other things we talk about and watch where characters 631 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:44.559 are more complicated and nuanced, and that's interesting to discuss. But again, 632 00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:52.920 like I'm you have the the narrative of one piece is set up in such 633 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:59.199 a way that you you have to have trust in Loofy, right, right, 634 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:06.519 and at least to now, to over like eleven hundred episodes that I 635 00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:10.159 believe that trust has not been broken, right, even though like there are 636 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:14.880 moments where he struggles and fails, Like, I don't think the trust has 637 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:20.719 been broken in terms of like the goodness of his character, and that to 638 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:28.760 me, like is an important part of some I guess heroic journeys or heroic 639 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:34.960 narratives, and maybe like maybe this goes to like why Paul has such a 640 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:37.159 problem with the last Jedi, and the way that Luke is portrayed is that 641 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:44.239 he feels like that some of that trust was broken by showing Luke despondent right, 642 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:52.000 not necessarily like that he failed, like I think heroic characters can fail, 643 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.159 but that he turned his back on it like that moment I can understand, 644 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:00.239 like in this context, now I can understand like why that would feel 645 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:04.719 like the betrayal of a character that has been built up as the hero. 646 00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:07.920 Yeah. I think you're will make very good points, and I want to 647 00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:12.599 say two things. One is, I do agree with you in the specific 648 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:17.280 world of One Piece, I do think we're supposed to just trust Loofy. 649 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:22.119 And also kind of see it as a like, we're not saying that someone 650 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.599 like Loofy would work in our own world, but in this world where someone 651 00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.079 like Loofy can be such a moral paragon, but also where the government is 652 00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.000 so fundamentally authoritarian itself, and like you said, where the point is to 653 00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:36.800 have a fun story, not necessarily a perfectly morally complex and nuanced story. 654 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.519 I agree with all that. I think I was more trying to say, 655 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:43.840 well, but let's it's still an interesting question to take and apply to our 656 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:47.840 own world and larger things like that. I think, though specifically with one 657 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:53.000 piece, and here again, I really want to hear from listeners. I 658 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:57.400 wonder if I would have a very different perspective on this if I had grown 659 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:00.239 up or just you know, at some point had a lot of experience of 660 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.920 the manga or the anime. Because I feel like, and I rewatched the 661 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:08.440 first three episodes just this morning, and it confirmed for me, I don't 662 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:13.880 feel like the show ever gives me a reason to trust Loofy, particularly because 663 00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:17.800 the first person he tries to free is Kobe. He meets Kobe very early 664 00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.920 on. Kobe is the kid who, as you said, wants to eventually 665 00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:28.280 become a marine. It does become a marine. Kobe is the kid who 666 00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:31.039 wants to become a marine, who he meets in the first episode early on, 667 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:37.960 But at this point Kobe is basically a pirate for Avina I think it's 668 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.280 her name, Avita Alvida Alvida, thank you, and not by choice. 669 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:45.639 He feels like he can't get away. He has to do these things or 670 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.239 else he's gonna get punished. He does not have freedom in this situation, 671 00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:53.239 but he also was very scared to challenge that freedom because he, I think 672 00:51:53.280 --> 00:52:00.239 somewhat rightly believes that the consequences would be pretty dire. And so when comes 673 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:04.559 along and just very cavalierly says, no, just be free, just don't 674 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.920 do that. That's fine, there's no problem, and then specifically kind of 675 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:14.239 Outsloopy uh, specifically almost outs Kobe in a way that Kobe has in no 676 00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:19.559 way consented to, and makes up thinks like he extrapolates kind of what he 677 00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.079 thinks Kobe is thinking, but tells the pirate leaders like, oh, yeah, 678 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:24.480 Kobe was calling you stupid. He was, you know, trying to 679 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:29.360 piss them off and start a fight that Kobe wants no part of. To 680 00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:34.760 me, that's an incredibly reckless and that made me significantly not trust him because 681 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.679 he winds up putting Kobe into lethal danger and yes, because of the rules 682 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:42.880 of comic book fighting and stuff like that, they wind up surviving. And 683 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.559 maybe the point is that he just knew that would happen. And maybe that's 684 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:49.199 what my failing is. I haven't read enough comic books because I just can't. 685 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:52.960 To me, I am going to start a fight on half of someone 686 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:58.119 else that puts them in danger because I'm so confident that I will win, 687 00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:00.079 and so they're not actually in any danger, which it doesn't work for me. 688 00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.599 And there's other stuff like that, But I think for me, that's 689 00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:07.440 the point is that I don't by the end of it, I do have 690 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.000 that trust. So I'm very curious to see where second season will go. 691 00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:14.039 But for most of this first season, I just don't trust Loofy the way 692 00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:20.880 you're saying you do, well, yeah, I mean, I would say 693 00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:25.519 that that is a central concept of a lot of shonen stories, is the 694 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:35.159 openess of the protagonist, especially in the beginning, like One Piece, Dragon 695 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:42.760 Ball, Bleach, like oftentimes, these characters are like supernaturally stronger than just 696 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:49.800 about everyone around them, and they kind of defeat the like average, you 697 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:54.440 know, villain pretty easily, and I think that's used to establish, you 698 00:53:54.480 --> 00:54:01.039 know, establish their power level and use that as a storytelling method, or 699 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:06.800 when you know, the stronger villains show up, like in this first season 700 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:12.679 arc ar Along, the Fishman defeats Loofy initially in his fight and that's kind 701 00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:17.639 of like a big moment, and then he has his his rematch and Zorro 702 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:21.519 loses the fight. That shows he's not the greatestwordsman of the world. And 703 00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:25.320 I think one almost guaranteed that same guy again at the later point, well 704 00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:30.719 someday maybe the final battle like that. I don't think that's happened yet, 705 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:37.880 because that is that is one of the most interesting storytelling decisions I've ever seen, 706 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.639 is to have Zoro say I want to be the greatest swordsman, and 707 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:47.880 then very early on meet the person who is acknowledged is the greatest, the 708 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:53.760 current greatest swordsman, right and lose to him right that. I can't think 709 00:54:53.800 --> 00:55:00.599 of another story where you just like immediately get the final boss like so in 710 00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:04.920 your face, like final bloss for Zoro at least. Yeah, And I 711 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.400 think it's what made I mean one of I sometimes have this with you know, 712 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:12.840 main character syndrome and stuff like that. This is definitely a show where 713 00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:16.119 I really enjoyed every other character except Loofy and Zora. I think was one 714 00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:19.840 of my favorites. Positingly my favorite in part because of that, because I 715 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:24.800 feel like, whereas Loofy has this incredibly unfounded, no reason for it, 716 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:30.320 hyper confidence, but because of you know, his fighting ability and sheer luck 717 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.280 and all these other things he hasn't fallen yet. Zorro is the exact opposite. 718 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:39.960 Zoro is someone who has incredible hubris and sense of himself, but he 719 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.719 gets knocked down and then the rest of the story is about him first getting 720 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:46.159 back up onto his feet and not just saying Okay, well I'm the worst, 721 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:49.880 so I'm a failure, but also saying no, I'm not the greatest 722 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:52.039 yet, but I will be one day, and I want to work towards 723 00:55:52.119 --> 00:56:00.760 that. That's interesting that you think of them so differently, because to me, 724 00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:04.079 like, that's the same. I guess what what you're saying is, 725 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:09.320 Like the difference is that Zoro has failed once, like in a major way. 726 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:14.719 More important, he's learned, he accepts that he has Like but they're 727 00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:19.280 but their characters are the same to me, Like they both have like this 728 00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:24.440 goal of the highest thing I can achieve within my career. You know, 729 00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:30.880 my my place, and I'm going to do that no matter what, and 730 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:36.079 nothing's going to stand in my way. Like those that's that they have the 731 00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:37.400 same thing, right, I want to be the king of the pirates. 732 00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.280 I want to be the greatest swordsman in the world. Like those are the 733 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:45.760 pinnacles of their things right, and it's it's different from like the other characters, 734 00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:52.280 like Sanji wants to find the all Blue, which doesn't it doesn't make 735 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:53.480 him the great. He doesn't want to be the greatest chef in the world. 736 00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:58.119 He just wants to find this mythical place where all the ingredients and all 737 00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:00.719 the fish can be found, right, and to cook with those ingredients, 738 00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:06.880 which is still like a highly unattainable goal because no one else in this world 739 00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:08.440 is like, yeah, like all Blues is like they all think it's a 740 00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:13.119 myth Oh, but he doesn't say so, I can be the greatest chef 741 00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:16.079 in the world right what I'm doing. But to me, like Zorro and 742 00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:21.719 Lufier are the same in their goals, I think there really are. It's 743 00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:28.079 that I think that Zorro's confidence feels like it has a lot more basis in 744 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:32.320 fact than just in pure hubris, and Zorro has learned a lesson, Like 745 00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:37.880 I think if the end of that first episode had been Loofy's saying to Kobe, 746 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.480 you know what, I was wrong to think that I knew what was 747 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:43.079 best for you, and I got us into a fight that I never should 748 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.639 have gotten us into, and I'm sorry. And if you think it's better 749 00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:46.880 and then gotten to the same place. If you think what was best for 750 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:50.920 us to be a marine, you go be a marine. And we'd seen 751 00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:53.360 him then be a little more cautious about telling other people what is best for 752 00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:57.400 them. I think I would like his character a lot more and to me, 753 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:02.280 then he'd feel a lot more like Zorro. It's that Zoro had that 754 00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:07.039 moment of you know, there's a lot of jokes online about like, you 755 00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:09.440 know, if only all of us had the confidence of the you know, 756 00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:15.719 underqualified, you know, the confidence of the underqualified, basic male who thinks 757 00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:21.280 that he's so much better than he actually is. That Loofy really hits that 758 00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:22.760 bone for me, you know, and that there is no reason for him 759 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.360 to have all this confidence, all this hubris, and when he's shown that 760 00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:29.199 he's wrong, he doesn't learn anything from it. And I think that's where 761 00:58:29.199 --> 00:58:35.079 I feel like him and him and Zoro are so different. Okay, Well, 762 00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:38.320 I think I disagree. That's fair, that's fair, and mainly like 763 00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:45.639 I disagreed just because of the conceit of what a manga story is is that 764 00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:52.480 the main character in the end, by the end will succeed the time right 765 00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:58.239 right, so to me, like his confidence is not unfound, it's just 766 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.079 kind of like comically curated, and we're just waiting for the rest of the 767 00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:05.599 people to realize it. Well. And like I said, I think for 768 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.880 myself, not knowing much about manga i'm and also not having read it or 769 00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:13.079 seen any of that, I'm only going by the what Netflix shows. Uh 770 00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.840 and here again, listeners, I'd really love to know you know more what 771 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:20.159 you think if other folks have only seen the live action I'm curious, you 772 00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:22.119 know, are you closer to when I am or close to Whriki is, 773 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:24.239 because I don't know. I don't know if I'm an outlier in that regard 774 00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:30.119 or if this is something that you know. Sometimes I think what can happen? 775 00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:32.199 So I think has happened with Ahska to a large extent. If you 776 00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:36.360 know a lot of the other versions of the story, it's easier to kind 777 00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:38.599 of fill in some of the gaps that people who aren't only seeing it for 778 00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:43.039 the first time in live action don't get to fill in. And so I 779 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.960 maybe that and it may well be that for the overall character, You're completely 780 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:49.440 right. All I can talk about is just because that's that's the limited thing 781 00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:53.880 that I've seen. Yeah, for me, like I just finished another series 782 00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:59.960 called Hunter Hunter, and again, like the main character gone is the very 783 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.880 headstrong, somewhat naive but like very well meaning, like like this is gonna 784 01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:10.119 happen because like it's what has to happen type of character. And there's actually 785 01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:16.480 like very interesting moments where he fails, but every time he has that anime 786 01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:21.639 protagonist moment of like we're just gonna do this, Like, yeah, I've 787 01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:24.559 rolled my eyes one hundred percent roll my eyes, but I also believe they're 788 01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:30.199 just gonna do it. Right, Yeah, that makes sense, That makes 789 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.400 sense. You know this maybe it should the place on a crimodgeon, you 790 01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:36.000 know, in the same way that like Paul is always y only get me, 791 01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:37.360 Like, no, it's comic book physics. You know. Head injuries 792 01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:42.079 don't work that way in comic books and comic book shows. It's just again 793 01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:45.159 where I have trouble believe in it. But that's fair. We've been about 794 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:49.920 an hour. I want to start wrapping up. So it's been about an 795 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:51.639 hour. I want to start wrapping up. So Riky, let me just 796 01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:57.199 kind of pulls back to the original question. Having this discussion, I think 797 01:00:57.239 --> 01:01:00.320 we both agree that Lufy is a good guy. I I think he wants 798 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:01.920 to be a good guy. I don't think he's as good as he thinks 799 01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:06.000 he is. But I think we both agree that he's definitely not the malevolent 800 01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:07.440 pirate. He's not even the sort of you know, anti hero. He's 801 01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:13.119 definitely a hero in this world. Do you think outside of this world? 802 01:01:13.880 --> 01:01:15.000 Not to say, like in our own world, although I think there's an 803 01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:20.000 interesting example in our own but also like in general, does a pirate have 804 01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:25.559 to mean a bad guy in other stories? In other stories and other stories 805 01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:30.199 are or like in the real world. I mean, like I'll give a 806 01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:36.519 real example right now. There are people in Yemen who ride out on boats 807 01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:40.840 with weapons to interfere with shipping that's happening in the area around like the south 808 01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:47.599 of the South Arabian Peninsula peninsula. We all call them pirates. Most to 809 01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:51.360 my knowledge, they have not killed anybody, or not killed very few people, 810 01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.800 and most of what they're doing is interfering with shipping that's going to Israel 811 01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:58.360 because of their understanding of what's happening in that conflict. So to me, 812 01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:00.679 that's an example of like where people are labeled pirates, and I think many 813 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:04.079 people kind have a negative view of them. Some might have a more positive 814 01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:07.480 view of them. Uh So I'm kind of asking for you, like either 815 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.880 in our own world or just in stories in general, like what do you 816 01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:15.559 think of the central question? Can can pirates be good guys? Good people? 817 01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:22.800 No? I'm gonna say no, my, Like the way the definition 818 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.880 of piracy is set up, it is literally like people who are breaking the 819 01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:34.599 law, so to me, like that's that's not good. And then you 820 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:37.760 have to ask a question of like well are the laws just? Is are 821 01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.960 the people in power just? And that gets more complicated, and I think 822 01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:51.559 you just have to go to like specific examples. But it's uh, I 823 01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:57.559 mean, and like the specific example you cite like is at a certain point, 824 01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:02.000 like iracy is just war is just undeclared war in my opinion, Like 825 01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:07.239 historically too, like what we were talking about between England and Spain, Like 826 01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:12.559 between those empires they did also like declare war several times during that period. 827 01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:17.599 But then like during the times of supposed peace, a lot of this fighting 828 01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:22.440 going on, the piracy, the privateering was just those nations like trying to 829 01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:28.159 get at each other and like steal their resources and stop them from having bigger 830 01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:35.239 colonies, right, and and like that, it's just get into broader questions 831 01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:42.119 of like are wars good and like again like no, but specific examples of 832 01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:45.719 like why wars are being fought and like who's fighting them. It's it's complicated, 833 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:52.760 but like I'm fairly comfortable just like on a broad basis just saying no, 834 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:58.119 pirates are bad, Okay, I think when me really come down to 835 01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:01.440 who's defining the pirate, you know, and I think by the strict definition 836 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:06.159 of a pirate, who is robbing and stealing for their own benefit. Yeah, 837 01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:09.719 I think I'm with you, pirates are bad. I think when we 838 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:13.280 look at it more from the perspective of who are other people defining as pirates? 839 01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:16.639 And that you know, as definitely happens in this world, but I 840 01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:19.360 think happens in our own world. It is a lot of those kind of 841 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:24.719 people, but also people who have much more you know, altruistic goals or 842 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.360 even just you know, what they think is justice for their own people goals, 843 01:04:29.039 --> 01:04:31.239 what are doing where the law isn't perfect or where are the authorities corrupt? 844 01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:33.960 Or things like that. I think is a lot of more grayness. 845 01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:36.320 So this was a great question. I'm really glad that you kind of brought 846 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:39.800 this up with One Piece. I'm glad you encourage me to watch One Piece. 847 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:45.079 I think I'm coming off very negative because I really it's a philosophical question 848 01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.880 I really care about. But you know, none of this is to say 849 01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:50.760 that I think One Piece is bad or wrong. It's just not one that 850 01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:55.599 I the central Conceit is one that I don't necessarily wrap my head around. 851 01:04:55.599 --> 01:04:57.960 But that's you know, it's not a criticulous show, but any means, 852 01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:01.320 it's just I mean to wrap up going back to one Piece, I think 853 01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:06.760 even like Loofy's version of piracy like stealing from people who have stolen from others, 854 01:05:06.880 --> 01:05:10.920 it's is wrong, right, and he does like a robin Hood thing 855 01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:15.119 like often of redistributing that wealth to the people who have been oppressed. But 856 01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:20.320 if we look at his like end goal of like everyone's free, like but 857 01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:25.119 don't steal from other people, right, Like, if that's the end goal 858 01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:29.119 and no one is stealing from other people, then Loofy, like I said, 859 01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:32.000 has no one himself to steal from. So I think that kind of 860 01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:38.880 points to like, on a very broad perspective that even his version of piracy 861 01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:44.119 is wrong, and once you reach the quote unquote perfect world becomes unnecessary. 862 01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:48.199 Yeah, I mean, and that's drawing that comparison. Like I said before, 863 01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:51.639 you know, Batman in a lot of the versions of the story wants 864 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:57.280 to do enough to bring you know, the bad elements of Gotham under control 865 01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:00.719 that the actual government and police can you know, re established themselves enough that 866 01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:05.119 he's not needed anymore. Right, Yeah, And yet and the ideal world 867 01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:10.920 Batman is not needed, right, it's the idea that he's he's trying to 868 01:06:11.039 --> 01:06:15.400 reach, but never will because that story, well I was just gonna say, 869 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:19.079 because that story will never end, right right. That's the other thing 870 01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:27.159 about manga stories is that they do end, unlike American comics. So even 871 01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:30.800 though like dragon Ball is trying to change that, I say, one Piece 872 01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:34.000 hasn't ended either, right, One piece hasn't ended, But there is an 873 01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:40.199 end. There's going to be an end, and Oda Sense has started talking 874 01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:45.400 about it like that we're getting close and he's like finalizing his final ideas. 875 01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:48.800 What I was saying about dragon Ball is that it ended and then came back. 876 01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:54.039 So I don't and that's something we could talk about about franchises in a 877 01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:58.239 future episode about you know why they never end, et cetera. But I'm 878 01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:03.199 not sure what's going on with dragon Ball because especially now that tordyemosense has passed 879 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:09.039 away, like who who writes the stories? Like who owns this property? 880 01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:13.559 Who controls this property? And what will it become? Is? Yeah, 881 01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:16.719 I said for a future discussion, Yeah, definitely, all right Oriki, 882 01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:18.880 Thank you so much. As always, this is a great conversation to our 883 01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:24.760 listeners. Thank you so much. As always, there's a lot of As 884 01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:27.039 always, there's going to be bonus content for our members. We'll have a 885 01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:30.400 little bit extra after this episode. We're gonna start doing bonus member full episodes 886 01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:35.079 here on Superhero Ethics. We've been doing them on Star Wars generations. Please 887 01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:38.840 become a member only five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. 888 01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:41.079 You get all those things, and you get to help support what we're doing, 889 01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:43.360 and it's such a great thing to be a part of, So please 890 01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:46.119 consider doing that. All the informations on our show notes and on our website, 891 01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:49.679 the Ethicalpana dot com. You can also find all this by just googling 892 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:55.519 the Ethical Panada or Superhero ethics or my name Matthew Fox. With those things 893 01:07:55.719 --> 01:07:58.960 and you'll find our Twitter, our TikTok, our email. We love feedback. 894 01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:00.719 We always want more of it. Let us know what you think. 895 01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:01.880 We raised some questions here. I want to know what you all think of 896 01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:05.880 the answers, so please do all that. Please check out all the great 897 01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:15.519 things we're doing, and most importantly, we have spoken. I'm going to 898 01:08:15.559 --> 01:08:15.119 be the Pirvate