And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is a triangle. You
know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham Paris concident. It
doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over
our heads classics also really standing into clearing. He turned over to my father
and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and said, we're
not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show. We're live every
Wednesday at eight pm Eastern Standard Time on the Dark Matter Radio Network. Please
remember to visit the website podcast ufo dot com for past episodes, blogs,
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Hello, and welcome to the show. This is Martin willis your host,
and I am back from Russia. That was way too long to be over
there. It feels really really good to be home. We are very lucky
to live in the country that we live in. And also just let you
know that intro, I'm going to have to change that because it says we're
live on the Dark Matter Digital Network. I don't know where I found that
intro, but that's an old one. We are not But however, if
you can't support our show and you'd like to listen to full shows, we
are still on the Dark Matter Digital network and that's every Thursday evening. It's
a like a podcast, two hour podcast every Thursday evening from ten to midnight.
You can catch it there. You can always catch our shows live for
free. The full show. That's either on YouTube on our YouTube channel you
can subscribe to that, or on podcast ufo dot com, and that's every
Wednesday at eight to ten pm Eastern Standard time. Also the Everything Else show.
I did a show last Monday with Nick Redfern. We talked about his
theory on Roswell, which is entirely different than I think most of us have
heard. And also we talked about cryptid animals and maybe kind of like the
paranormal side of what his thoughts were on that. Why no one has ever
found a big foot? Why no one has ever found any of these others
that countless people say they see no evidence. Why is that? So that's
what we talk about now that if you're a subscriber to the show, that
comes out as a podcast and that will be coming out on Saturday, so
you can listen to those shows on either Monday, or if you're a subscriber,
you can listen to the show in your media player for free. Speaking
of supporters, we did the statistics about three and a half percent of our
listeners support the show. So I want to say thank you very very much
for that three and a half percent. That helps us out. That does
pay the bills, and it's really nice to have that. We do get
a lot of downloads, use a lot of bandwidth, dedicated server and all
that. Our guests this evening is Mark O'Connell and he's going to be talking
about his book on Jay Allan. Heinik very interesting man. And before that,
Alejandro Rojas couldn't not make the UFO updates. He double booked himself according
to him, or he's playing hookie, so he's not going to be on
this week. He'll be back next week. Instead. I have Mick West.
Now, Mick has been on the show a couple of times and I
really respect his work, his very thorough work. He has metabunk dot org
and we're gonna be talking about the Nasca three fingered alien, and there's more.
These mummies that's what we're gonna be talking about and what his research and
how he uncovered. The most likely thought is that these are these are some
type of hoax, whether in recent hoax or an early hoax. But that's
kind of what it boils down to. So we're gonna be talking about that,
and welcome to the show. How are you, Mick? Good?
God? Great? So, first of all, how do you find all
these things? I mean, you do one or two things a week that
you dive into and try to find, you know, explanations for what they
really are. So how do you find all these things to take a look
at and dive deep into what they are? Well, you know, I've
been doing it for a while, so I kind of I think Facebook knows
the type of thing that I like, so I get up type of things
showing up on my Facebook feed. But I also have a Google filter set
for weird news and UFOs, and every time a story pops up in the
media, it just emails me with the story and I give it a quick
look to see its interesting and if it is, I might delve into it
a little bit. Now. The last time we had you on, you
were talking about the Chilean UFO, and you basically kind of broke the story
of what that really was. Now the entire you know, Chilean government was
behind that as being a UFO, and you found all the data when the
plane was exactly what where the plane was, the course of it, and
everything lined up perfectly. That changed that whole story. Yeah, it was
It was a it was a team effort. Really. There was other people
on Meta Bank who helped. But yeah, we we we've done that type
of thing before, like tracking down a plane, and I think once we
realized that it was probably a commercial jet and we were able to track down
the traffic for the area, it was actually fairly straightforward. YEA. Yeah,
we've basically done a lot of that before. With the whole chem trail
stuff that I'm looking into right right, I know that's another another one out
there, um that you hear a lot about. And basically since we're just
touching on that subject real quickly, Um, there's there's nothing, ever,
there's no evidence that there is such a thing as chem trails. Everybody says
they're spraying things for climate control or to control people and all that, Uh,
there's no there's never any solid evidence any anything like that is there not
that I've come across. I mean, people bring up a lot of things.
I mean, the most common thing that people bring up is the idea
that the trails shouldn't persist. But I've got like whole, a whole bookshelf
over there field of books on the weather that explain that controls do persist,
and they have done ever since planes were invented. So the basic premise of
the theory is flawed, and everything else is just kind of follow them from.
That doesn't really have to do with altitude as well, with them hanging
around. It does, yes, it has to do with temperature, which,
of course you know, as you get higher it gets colder. So
when you're up at thirty five thousand feet, the temperature is usually forty below
or colder, and that temperature the exhaust basically condenses and freezes instantly and causes
creates a contrail, which is really just a type of cloud. It's not
really anything special. It's not like a smoke plume or anything. It's just
a cloud triggered by the EXHAUSTA but chet, you know, speaking of the
altitude and temperature had Nick Redfurn on my show and on Monday, and we
were talking about high altitude balloons and he said, you know, the higher
they go, sometimes they'll burst because of the heat of the sun. And
I thought about it afterwards. You know, I know that outside of a
plane is you know, well below zero, so that that's not really the
case, is it. Once a high altitude balloon keeps going higher, it
doesn't get hotter, does it, now? It doesn't really they burst because
of the reductionary pressure. Yeah, basically, like they'll just keep going up
until the gas inside of them will expand. And weather balloons, for example,
are designed so that the balloon will burst at a certain altitude and then
the package the radioson at the bottom will return back to Earth. So yeah,
it's not really being heated up by by by the sun, although if
you get really really high, then the air is too thin to actually take
away the heat in the form of cold, so it kind of works the
other way around as you get a lot higher, as I think called the
thermopause where things actually get warmer as you get higher. But generally to get
calm about that, Now, what is your background? Do you have a
science background or is it just a passion study of yours. No, I
don't really have a science background. My degree is in the computer science,
which I don't really consider a science myself, but it's there's a science on
my degree. But I know when I was young, I read a lot
of science books. And now since i've been doing metal bunk and control science,
you know, contral science has been going for about ten years now,
I just had a lot of exposure to these types of things and investigating this
type of thing. And I used the stuff from my background as a video
game programer, where I do lots of three D geometry calculations for the videographs
I see, and it all just kind of comes together and it's it's just
what I do now, and so I'm kind of got good at it for
a while. Okay, so let's talk about um the claims. First of
all, Um, we know himI Mosayin is um involved in this? And
god have you say? Is it gaya? Do you know how that's pronounced?
Yeah? Guy, yeah, yeah, So they're involved in this,
so um. And also I read somewhere online that there's a symposium they're trying
to put together. We're three hundred and fifty dollars per ticket and that type
of stuff. I couldn't find out any date or anything when that's supposed to
happen. But, um, what is your h what was your conclusions on
onto what these things are? Now there's more of them that have been rolling
out. One that looks like, um it possibly it looks like it has
eggs inside and stuff like that. Um. So so let's let's talk about
where this led you and what your your conclusions were. Well, the first
one I looked at was the large specimen which came out in that Guya video,
which is kind of it is killed into fetal position. It looks odd
because it has these three fingered hands and three toed feet, and it has
this strange looking face. But when they actually show the X rays of it,
that's kind of what you made me suspect what it actually was, because
if you look at the X rays of the mummy, you'll see that the
bones in the hand look exactly like the middle three bones of a human hand,
but with the little finger and the thumb removed. There's a bunch of
bones down here called the metacarpals. Of the carpals are the ones at the
bottom. These are the metacarpals, and it looks like all look they did
is they removed the little finger, they removed the thumb, and then they
split the hand down here. And if you compare what is a human skeleton
would look like, if you did that to the X rays that they provide
of the mummy, it would look exactly the same. So it really looks
like it's just a human human skeleton that's been modified to look unusual. Do
you think now there's speculation that you know that this is very possible that this
and I know that they modified some of these mummies with animal bones and things
like that, this is human bones, But do you think this was done
a long time ago or any ideas when it was done? You see,
that's the thing that's kind of very difficult to say. They say they've done
they've done carbon dating on it, which dates it back like a thousand years
or so, but that obviously only dates the actual material of the mummy.
We don't know if the entire thing dates back in a thousand years. They
could have actually put it together from other bits and pieces that are things that
were actually mummified a thousand years ago. Now there is a possibility that it
was actually created by the native people a thousand years ago. Perhaps for some
reason they were making strange looking mummies out of their dead people. There's been
suggestions that they were visited by aliens, and then they were trying to make
their dead look like these aliens so that they would be more like the gods
as they would see them. And you go up to join the gods,
but you know, there's really nothing to go by because no one's actually looked
at the archaeological site where these specimens are supposedly come from. And if you're
doing archaeology, really the first thing and the most important thing is to actually
secure and examine the site so you get a very solid record of exactly where
these objects come from. And you see them picking up these mummified hands and
waving them around like they're nothing. They don't seem to be really taking the
whole thing very seriously. Well, isn't it difficult to get permission to actually
go into these places and actually remove you know, archaeological Oh yeah, now
they have the Ministry of Antiquities or whatever it's called in Peru, But yeah,
they they're not supposed to be doing it. The official channels are supposed
to do it. So you know, there's some debate in Peru about,
you know, exactly what's been going on and have they broken the law or
is there any evidence that they've done that. But if no one can actually
prove that they took these things from anywhere, then the authorities can't really prove
them prove that they have taken them from anywhere. With that in itself implies
that they were faked. But really, you know, the important thing here
would be seeing the archeological site. Another thing obviously would be taking some DNA
samples of and seeing what they're actually made from. Right right now, As
far as the cranial formation, that that was nothing really that uncommon. I
mean, they used to shape you know, baby from infancy is to shoot
that they still do in some places. And you can also occasionally get natural
defamations of human skulls that turn out like that. But yeah, cronial modification
of much more extreme forms. We've seen that with the very long kind of
cone head type shapes in some cultures, so that in itself isn't really suspicious.
One thing that looks odd with the mummy is the eyes. But the
thing about that is that they're not really they don't really show up like that
on the skeleton. You can see that those eyes and those eye slits appear
to have just been formed manually by some kind of clay or something on the
front of the face. And the white. You know, at first they
thought the white was like a plaster, which is it is not. It's
something else that it's probably some type of like oxidations, very dry there,
yeah, exactly what it is, but it's not plaster. They say in
one of the videos that it was diamaticus earth, which is it's a common
material that you can buy at a gardening suppliest or used for like a type
of fertilizer essentially, or a bug killer, and it's just it's a desiccant.
It's a thing that makes things dry. So if the white stuff is
diamaticus earth, that would be something you could figure out where that actually came
from, because it may it may well be that that that region Cusco is
very high, you know, it's Cusco a like thirteen thousand feet. So
I don't know if they're going to have diamaticus earth because that's the remainder of
the remains of seashells. So I don't know if they would have a source
of that. It sounds the fact that it is that sounds kind of modern.
And it's very bright, you know, whether that when they first said
it, someone said it was plaster or said that. You know, I
from my personal experience as an appraiser, know that plaster are always yellows over
time, you know, it doesn't stay bright like that. Yeah, yeah,
this is essentially it's calcified sea creatures, tiny little, tiny, little
like Mirsa. I don't know if you know what Mersham is, Yeah,
I don't. It's they actually make pipes and carvings out of it. It's
yeah, oh yeah. Now the thing that got me right off the bat
when I first saw this someone sent me the original video, and right off
the bat is the alien. You know, why do they have to throw
the alien tag on this thing? Right off the bat? I mean,
they are discovering human you know, different types of human type skeletons they always
have, and so why right off the bats say it's alien? I mean
yeah, And if you if you saw the article I wrote on it,
I made a list of I think like seven different things it could possibly be.
And you do, from the most probable thing to the least probable thing,
and alien seems to be pretty much the least likely thing that it would
be. Various types of fake or natural occurrence are more possible, things like,
you know, it could be a previously undiscovered animal, like some kind
of ape or something like that, but itself, it's very unlively something you
can prove very quickly by doing some DNA testing, which they you know,
they haven't done, are they do You happen to know if that is something
they're going to be doing and revealing before they have this supposium, or are
they going to I don't know what their plans are. You know, if
I was to guess at what their plans are, I think they're going to
try to draw this out as long as they can, and they will eventually
say that it is, you know, some kind of composite thing, either
a human skeleton or other smaller ones will be human skeletons bones mixed with animal
bones, and I think that's advantage actually where they're going to get and that
it was made to look in the image of aliens, so they've still got
that kind of connection and it's still kind of an interesting thing. But I
don't think they're going to be able to keep up the idea that these are
actual alien remains. Right. Well, hey, Mick, thanks so much.
And you know, I think you were on the very first time you
were on is when someone was saying they were sparting a triangle UFO on the
moon, and you figure you figured that out exactly what that was had nothing
They just had to do with the way the images were pieced together, all
right if I remember, right, Yeah, that's right, all right,
thanks so much, and everyone it's yeah, it was just an image pixel
right right, all right. So this is Mick Weston. He's from Metabunk.
It's spelled just the way it sounds m eta bunk dot org. Check
out his website and he has uncovered a lot. He is the friendly debunker.
Okay, so a lot of debunkers have a bad name, but he's
the friendly debunker. Thanks a lot, Mick. All right, I here
care bye, all right, so uh let's see make you're gonna have to
hang up if you would, Um, I can't. I can't do that
separately from our guests. So our guest, thank you, our guests,
good talking to you. Here. We are our guest, as Mark O'Connell.
Mark has been on the show before, and actually when he was on
the show last time, Um, he did bring up the fact that he
was writing a book on doctor Jay Allan Heinik and and he did, and
um, and it's a great book. I've heard a couple of interviews.
I have not read the book. I hope to. And that's the thing.
You know, a lot of people ask I had someone asking the last
show basically, why aren't you reading the books? Well, I have a
full time career as well as doing this show. I read. I love
to read, but I can't read books like George Napkin read a book in
a day. It takes me a long time to read a book. I'm
not like that. So anyway, I'm here with Mark O'Connell. How are
you Mark? I am great, Martin, thanks for having me here.
And I think you were. You were on the show just before you started
writing the book. If I if I got that right, I'm a little
I'm a little foggy on when that that was the last couple of years of
my life. Have been so full of research for the book that my timetable
sort of get compressed and screwed up. Well, you were on, Um,
I remembered that I think I connected you with Ray Stanford because Ray knew
doctor Heinik. Hmm, yes that yeah, okay, then that does go
back probably at least three years, I guess, yeah, right, yes,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would have to be that
far. Right. So, how is the book doing. It's doing pretty
well. We're having steady sales. Um. Just publishing world is all new
to me, the right The professional writing I've done in the past has generally
been um for the screen TV and movie scripts, and that world moves it.
It seems slow when you're you're in it, but compared to publishing,
is it's pretty fast. Publishing is. Things move very slowly in publishing.
I'm learning you have to measure things in weeks and so you know, I'm
just doing a lot of doing a lot of media appearances still and doing a
lot of social media and just enjoying the hell out of this whole book promotion.
That's great. And now when you when you wrote the book, hang
on, let me just fix something here. When you wrote the book,
well, I should put it this way, what made you decide to write
about Heineck himself? I didn't really decide that the opportunity kind of fell into
my lap. I'm sure the last time I did your show, I talked
about my blog High Strangeness High strangencufo dot com. Um I started that about
five years ago and was always looking for new material to write it about,
and sort of stumbled across a website for the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago
while I was living in Chicago at the time, and thought, Hey,
I need to I need to pay these guys a visit. So I got
a hold of Mark Rodiger, who was the scientific director of Goop. So
I should add KUPOS is the UFO research organization founded by j Allen Heinik in
the nineteen seventies, so they were still around in Chicago five years ago,
and um I, as I said, I contacted Mark Rodiger. He invited
me to stop buying to take a look at their archives, and I did,
and that became the first of a whole series of visits. There was
so much fun stuff in the archives at Mark's house that I just kept going
back over and over again to just look through files and look for fun UFO
documents and books and things. Finally, on one of those one of those
it's Mark just kind of casually mentioned, hey, we've always been looking for
someone to write the definitive account of doctor Heineck's career, and I said,
please, I would love to do that. So that's how it all started.
I was just I was in the right place at the right time.
Mark just made this comment that day and I just jumped on it. So
that was the start of this long, long, crazy ride. And it's
it's been Fenn. Yes, Um, I think I mentioned to you the
other day that I was I was looking for interviews with Heineck and I actually
was watching one with Tom Snyder, talk show host, and yeah, and
that was great. So I'm still in touch with Actually knew Tom. He
was a neighbor when I lived out in California and I he passed away.
I met him just before we passed away at about a year. I had
and great guy. He loved Dan Akroyd's imitation. Him and Dan actually were
friends. Danneric or iad used to do an invitation on Saturday Night Live of
Tom Snyder as the talk host shows for anyone, you know, this goes
way back into the early eighties, I believe. Anyway, So I talked
to Tom's his widow, Pam Burke, who's a producer. She was a
producer of his show as well, and she said that Jay Alan Heinek was
one of their very very favorite guests. They loved him. They said he
was really funny, and he was so interesting and brilliant and they just loved
having him on the show. Well, I've I've watched the I don't know
if it's the entire interview, but you can see at least portions of it
on YouTube, and it is a really fun It's a fun interview to listen
to. You can tell that, you can tell that Heineck felt he was
talking with someone who respected what he had to say and so, you know,
and so that that animated Heineck, you know, more than he might
have been, you know, into some other interviews. So they had a
nice energy together for sure. Yeah. Now, the thing I think is
the most fascinating part about Heineck is the switchover. You know, he was
the guy too debunk and then all of a sudden it's like, hey,
there's really something to this and then totally dives into it. What do you
know in your research about him, as say, from childhood on if he
had a fascination with say, science fiction or anything like that. Did you
uncover any of that, Yeah, there is, there's definitely some of that
in his background. He was born in nineteen ten as Hallie's Comma was appearing
in the sky, so he was he was born under the comet, which
seemed to have some influence on his life. When he was about eight years
old, he came down with scarlet fever and he was bedridden for many,
many days, and his mother just went through every book in the house and
then started borrowing books from neighbors so that she could keep her son occupied,
and so she read some of the books to him. He read some of
the books himself, but one of those books was an astronomy textbook. So
from the research I did, that was that moment when he was sick in
bed at age eight was his first real contact with the scientific world. And
apparently he he fell in love with astronomy. He fell in love with the
stars while reading that book when he was eight years old. He also had
interests in writing. He was really a pretty good writer in his high school
days. He was a regular contributor to his high school's literary magazine. He
wrote some really fun short stories. Wow, isn't it funny? How like
a turn in life can just change everything you know? And a lot of
times you do here about it is a sickness that changes someone's life and get
some interested in things that just turned before. I forget this, Um,
Shane in the chat room and welcome back Shane, I should say, welcome
back me in the regular time slot. Is uh. Shane wanted to know
if the image on the book was an actual unexplained UFO. What are any
story on that that? That is art that was created by the HarperCollins uh,
graphic art. I mean, it's it's clear. It's clear that they
looked at a lot of vinded UFO pictures because they really captured that look in
that style of those kinds of images like the Rex suffering photos for example.
Um, but yeah, I believe that was completely created by there are.
Wow, you could have lied, you had your chance made up? Yeah,
sorry, Missbuster. Yeah. Well, skepticism is the theme of a
little bit. Yeah all right, So um, hi Nick, he we're
going back home. This is many years ago. So he was contacted first
by the Air Force. At what point and how was he standing as an
astronomer at that time. Why did they reach out to him. He had
virtually no standing as an astronomer. Actually he had been. He was teaching
at the Ohio State University and Ohien Wesleyan University, and he was a I
think at this point he may have been an associate professor. Not a big
wheel in the world of science or astronomy or academia at all. He was
just, you know, he was a young, young professor, kind of
making his way in the world. But he had spent some time during World
War two engaged in some high security work for the US government, working on
what was called the proximity fuse. The first smart weapon was developed in during
World War Two. It was a It was a radio device that you could
put in the nose of a warhead and it would send out radio waves ahead
of it as it was flying through the air, and it could be programmed
to detonate when the return time of those bounced off radio waves would return to
the fuse. It could tell how close it was to the target, and
it could set the warhead off at a certain distance. So as you can
imagine, this made things a lot safer for our gunners. They didn't always
have to hit a bull's eye every time, and so a lot more lived
as a result of that. So Heineck had high security clearance because he had
worked on this project. So here you've got the poor as a right,
Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. So they're right down the road
from Columbus where the universities are. Were Heinex teaching, and they are starting
to get in late nineteen forty seven, early nineteen forty eight, they are
starting to get buried in UFO reports. Ever since Kenneth Arnold had seen his
string of flying saucers flying through the Cascade Mountains in June of nineteen forty seven,
UFOs were on everybody's mind, and the Air Force was getting deluged with
dozens and dozens and dozens of strange UFO reports from around the country. Well,
they were doing their best to explain away, to debunk these reports as
misidentifications of perfectly ordinary things airplanes, balloons, birds, astronomical objects. So
and they were they were pretty good at explaining those sightings away, but they
needed they need a credible, no nonsense, scientific spokesperson to back them up
on this. So Heinick was teaching at a university literally or right up the
road, and he already had had some top secret government security clearance, so
he was a guy who could be put to work on this project with a
minimum of red tape. So the Air Force guys paid Heineke visit at Ohio
State one day and said, say, have you ever heard of these flying
saucers? And Heineke had heard of them, and he thought they were kind
of a joke. He thought they were embarrassing, and really he thought they
were a fad. He believed that this was a fad that would die out
in no time. But they asked him if he would sign on as a
consultant to look over these UFO reports and let them know which of these reports
he could write off as simply a misidentification of an astronomical body or an astronomical
occurrence. So that was his job on what was then called Project Sign.
He was he was very good at it, and he actually kind of enjoyed
debunking all these UFO reports because, as I said, he thought it was
he thought it was a fad, and I think he thought that by debunking
the Air Force's reports, he could hasten the demise of this fad which was
very much anti science as far as he was concerned. Wow, well,
we have some questions coming in on the chat room. Someone wanted to know
with if he ever had any view on Roswell. Now, I know Roswell
wasn't made much of at the time. Basically, you know, it was
like a two day event and swept under the rock. Basically, yeah,
you're right, at the time, it really, it really was inconsequential.
I'll tell you a little background on that for your your questionnaire. When I
was researching the book, I could not find anything for the longest time that
Heinech ever said or wrote or thought about the Roswell story, or about any
saucer crash story, because of course there are many saucer crash stories, not
just the Roswell story. So I was having a hard time finding anything.
And at one point I was talking with Mark Rodiger again the sign to FIC,
director of the Heineck Center for UFO Studies, and I said, you
know, when I get to Roswell, I don't think I'm going to really
have much to say about it in this book. And Mark said, well,
you know what, you don't really need to say anything about Roswell in
the book he said, he said it was really not a factor in Heineck's
career or in his thinking at all. And well, I thought it would
be a mistake to not mention Roswell at all. That would be kind of
hard hard to do in a book that is focusing on the history of UFOs.
So there is a short segment in the book about Roswell. But Heineck
made it very clear in several interviews that he was extremely uncomfortable with saucer crash
stories. And the big, big reason for that was if you start talking
about a flying saucer crash landing and leaving behind a debris field, leaving behind
wreckage, then what you're actually saying is that object was a physical, manufactured
object. And Heineck was absolutely not into that idea at all. That nuts
and bolts theory. Heineck stayed as far away from that as he possibly could.
So so Heineck just Heineck did a really good job of keeping his hands
clean where where Roswell was concerned, and again that applies to pretty much every
saucer craft story. Heineck just didn't want to have anything, and that goes
all the way to the end of his life he felt that way. Yeah,
how about that? Yeah he did. Now, had he ever had
a sighting himself? Yes, I'm so glad you asked that, because I
have to tell you, Martin, I kind of laugh at myself now,
But I was almost completely done writing the book before that question even occurred to
me, and I thought, wait a minute, I need to find out
if Heineck ever saw any UFOs himself. And it turns out he had.
He had had two different UFO sightings. I can't remember the dates offhand,
but he had seen a UFO out of the window of a commercial airliner one
time. I believe it was a night flight, and he did take some
pictures of it, but as is so often the case with UFO pictures taken
at the spur of the moment, you can't really tell a whole lot from
the image on the film. So he saw the UFO from the airplane.
And then years later he was at his family's vacation cottage in Ontario, Canada,
which is a very remote location cabin built on a lake in the deep
deep northwoods of Ontario, and he saw something one day over the over the
lake that where his cabin was built, and he had no phone at the
cabin, so there wasn't really a whole lot he could do about it.
They were very, very isolated. But when he had a chance, he
did contact someone at the Canadian Air Force or Air Ministry, I'm not sure
what they call it, and he gave them the details of his sighting,
the date at the time, the you know, latitude and longitude, and
said, you know, did anybody else report this? And he came up
empty handed. There there were no other reports that he was ever able to
find. So so he saw two UFOs, but um, they were both
seen very far away, so he couldn't count them as close encounters. Uh,
So there was there was no real wow factor to his UFO sightings.
I'll say wow still, I'll say wow too. But he was. But
he he confessed, and I quote him in the book that he was.
He was rather disappointed. He felt rather left out. How about that that
he hadn't that he hadn't had a close Well, Blue Sky asked that question
in the chat room. Methought that was a good question to ask. So,
um, he was such an interesting man. And um he also came
up with the person that doesn't know this. He's the one that came up
with the term of the different encounters close encounters of the first kind, second
kind, third kind, fourth kind. And that is that something he actually
coined. How did that? Do you know? How that came about?
Was? It was part of a long process with him. He actually started
to think in terms of categorizing UFO events in the late nineteen sixties, when
the Condon Committee at the University of Colorado had essentially actually taken overall UFO research
US government while the time during the during the time that they were that they
were in existence, and during that time, Heineck wrote he actually wrote an
article that appeared in Playboy magazine in nineteen sixty seven, and in that article
he started formulating his ideas for classifying UFO events that he was hoping that the
Colorado Committee people would adopt. He thought maybe once maybe somebody on the committee
would read Playboy and see his ideas there. So at that early stage,
his idea was simple to isolate cases that had a high strangeness factor, which
means anything that doesn't really comport with the known laws of nature and physics,
and also cases that had a high credibility factor for the witnesses, which basically,
you know, goes into the witnesses social standing, their state of mohind,
their education, you know, all these factors. So Heinekes isolate these
strangeness factor with high credibility witnesses and start looking for patterns among those sightings that
might be a way into at least starting to understand the UFO phenomenon. Well,
the counting committee did not adopt those ideas in the end, but heine
kept going with his thinking and eventually he sort of expanded things to um a
system that he really first wrote about it in nineteen seventy two book The UFO
Experience, which everyone should read. It's a great, great book. And
he had actually two systems of three categories each. The first one was general
categorizations of UFO sightings that would include number one daylight, number two meandering nocturnal
lights, and number three visual radar sightings. He was most interested in the
visual radar sightings because he felt that those had the most scientific value. So
on top of those three categories, then he went a step further and developed
the three close encounter categories. In close encounter number one was visual contact with
the UFFO within about five hundred yards. He thought that was close enough so
that the witness could make out physical details siziye sheep outline things, things of
that nature. Close encounter number two involved physical evidence. So in this case
CE two K would involve the U leaving behind say um landing pad imprints or
or scorched grass where a UFO was seen to have landed. Possibly some physical
effects among the witnesses, you know, retinal burns or sunburns or things like
that. All of those things have been have been reported. Or one of
my favorites, um making cars stall out and their headlights god dead. So
encounter the third kind, the big one, involves, of course UFO occupants
entities that are associated with the UFO and either come out of the UFO or
are seen close to the UFO. And in those cases, of course,
the witnesses sometimes they merely see these entities from a distance. Sometimes they actually
interact with the entities. So you've got so and then you've got those six
categories, and of course they overlapped. Something that began as a simple daylight
disc could come within five hundred yards of you and suddenly become a close encounter
case. So that's how Heineck systematized. I think that's a word. That's
how That's how Heineck organized his thinking. And because he just believed that you
know, um, as with all scientific data, if you can categorize it
and start seeing patterns, that is the best way to start to understand the
Yeah. Yeah, did he as far as you know, did he ever
think that he was going to be alive long enough to find out what was
going on? Like we all do. I love that question. I think
I think he was like a lot of us. Yes, yes, I
think he starting out, I think he really believed that it would be possible
for us to solve the mystery, to answer all the questions we have about
what these objects are. I think later in life, um, you know,
his hopes dimmed a little. Uh. There's a lot in my book
about that when he ended up, um leaving Chicago and moving to Arizona,
when he thought that he had financial backing to form a really world class UFO
research center in Scott's still there's um and then and then that fell by the
wayside for a lot of complicated reasons. So yeah, towards the end,
I think, um, I think Kinek kind of lost faith that we would
ever understand the problem. But here's the interesting twist to that. I also
think, just from my readings of his final interviews and his final talks with
friends and his final writings, UM, I think that he was actually okay
with that. I think he actually was starting to think that as as I
say in the book, some mysteries are meant to be savored and not necessarily
solved. I think I think he reached a point where he was okay with
not knowing as long as we kept trying to find out what it is.
I think that's all we can all help for, you know, I mean,
I I don't have any It goes back to watch a documentary, an
early UFO documentary that was somewhere in like the sixties, and there was a
an older guy in that and he was saying, you know, I think
we'll find out in my lifetime. He said that, I'm thinking this guy's
long gone. Um. So it kind of made me think about the whole
topic in that in that way and think, hey, you know, I'll
probably never know. Um, it is interesting to explore the topic. That's
why I love, you know, doing the show. UM, we have
a question in the forum for you from Kerry, and that question is,
as Alan Heinik was an astronomer, how did his peers and astronomy regard him
with his UFO research, especially when his opinion changed about his belief in UFOs
in later years. A very very loaded question. That's that's a complicated one.
Hicks peck relations with his fellow scientists um were sometimes very troubled, sometimes
very very negative. He didn't always make a whole lot of friends in the
scientific community. And of course you know some immediate names bought up Donald Menzel,
who was one of the directors of the Harvard Observatory. He was he
was an astronomy superstar and he hated you a post and everything to do with
them. So he was a thorn in heineck side for many, many years.
Doctor James McDonald at the University of Arizona became a UFO believer and just
and just visited Heineck once and just pounded on his desk and said, damn
it, Allen, why have you been sitting on all this good data and
not sharing it with the rest of the world. So he had he had
issues with fellow astronomers, but on the flip side u sometimes he had some
very surprising allies in the scientific world. When he got into the late sixties
early seventies, after he had stopped working for the Air Force, when he
could sort of become um he could be, he could become more flexible and
actually more or free in in how he studied the UFO phenomenon. Once he
was discerned, he actually started to gather around him this asciation and they ended
up the College LuSE Association of Scientists and some pretty heavy hitters in the world
of science and academia who were willing thinking to It doesn't mean that they believed
this, that or the other thing about the UFO phenomenon, but it meant
that they were they agreed with Heineck that this subject was interesting enough and had
a level of reality to it that made it worthy of serious scientific study.
So so for every scientist to Heinech had a really bad, horrible relationship,
there were there was another scientist who who kind of believed in what Heineck was
doing and wanted to joined forces with him. So that's kind of a very
heartening part of the story that there there was always somebody listening to Heinich.
Even when he thought nobody was listening to him. Talking with Stan Friedman a
while ago, he mentioned that Donald Menzel actually had a CIA connection. It
was uncovered. You know, he had a high security clearance and so there
was a that's kind of a mystery. Um you know why he was so
adamant against the UFO topic. Well, especially since Donald Menzel had actually seen
really as as had James McDonald. Yeah, yeah, how about that.
Yeah, it's it's weird. Yeah, there, Donald Menzel, I could
probably write a book about him. He's kind of a mystery man there.
There are a lot of parts to that guy's story that really don't seem to
fit together. Very wow, interesting your next book? You heard it all
here, folks. Yeah. Um, you know, were having a little
bit of a sky. I have a couple I have a couple ideas.
Oh well, are you serious? So go ahead and talk about it if
you would. Oh, I was just gonna say I have a couple of
The idea is um. But we're still so devolved in in promoting this book
and spreading the word that I'm not even I'm not close to starting work on
a second book. But but I have some ideas percolating, and they're not
all UFO related. Okay, so I'll be honest. Problem, Hey,
can you turn off the camera on your skype? We're having some skype issues
and I'm hoping that that will solve it, you know perhaps. Yeah,
just that's perfect, Yes, right there, that's fine. Um, so
we'll go this. We'll go this way a while and see if if it
doesn't sound any better than you can turn your camera back on. But we'll
go this way for now. UM. So let me just see if we
have any questions up in in chat. Um. There's probably something I'll have
to scroll back now when you're when you were doing this research for the book,
Um, what was the I guess what I'd like to ask you is
what was some of the things you uncovered that you had no idea about about
Heineck? Was there anything like that that you just said, wow, this
is really interesting. Oh yeah, there were. There were a number of
moments like that. One of the first was I've already told you the story
of how I would visit the KUFOS archives in Chicago and dig dig into their
files in their bookshelves. So when I started officially working on the book,
that was where I spent a lot of my time. Eventually I started to
visit the archives across town in Evanston, Illinois, at the Northwestern University Library,
Heineck had taught astronomy, had been chairman of the astronomy department for many
years. He had he had taught ot there for almost a quarter of a
century, very very long and happy career there, and um Northwestern has a
huge, huge collection of Heineck's work, papers and correspondent and news clippings and
all sorts of treasures. So the one of the first big surprises for me
was what an amazing career as an astronomer he had had. And I discovered
all of that at Northwestern University and then later on at the University of Chicago,
which is where Heinech had had gone to college and gotten his doctorate his
PhD in astronomy. They also had a huge, wonderful collection of Heineck's papers
from the very early years of his career. So between the You of Chicago
archives of his early years and then the Northwestern archives of his later years,
I had developed this amazing picture of a of a really really was a pioneer
in the field of celestial imaging. I mentioned in the book at least once
that really, without Heineck, I don't think we would have had all the
orbital telescopes we now have, including the Kepler telescope, which is spotting all
these planets. Heinich was. Heinick was inspiration for that kind of technology.
He was quite an amazing guy. He never saw himself as a superstar scientist
and never really wanted to be one, but he had some pretty impressive contributions
to science, to astronomy, So that was kind of the first big thing.
The second big surprise was that he had this really interesting spiritual side.
He wasn't a religious guy at all. His son Paul told me, he
said, we never had any religion in our house. We were very atypical
in that regard. But but in his young years in high school in college
he had read a lot of writings of the Rosaecrucians and a spiritual leader named
Rudolf Steiner, and Heineck was really really interested in the topics that they talked
about, and those included, you know, making contact with the afterlife.
Rudolf Steiner wrote about something he called the supersensible realm, which is really a
fancy name for a parallel dimension that he thought existed alongside ours and that we
could enter anytime we wanted to, if we could train ourselves to. Those
are the kinds of ideas that Heineck loved reading about as he was growing up
and later in life when he was last year of his life or so,
when he was after he'd been diagnosed with brain cancer and he was in his
last months of his life, he returned to that spiritual side of things again.
So that was the second big, big surprise. So you've got this
guy who, for me, at the outset of this project, he was
purely one dimensional. He was this UFO guru. Well it turns out no,
he was the UFO guy, he was the astronomy guy, and then
he was this spiritual guys. Really fascinating, amazing. Yeah, that is
something, and who knows he might be right with the dimensions. You never
know. There's still a lot of there's still a lot of speculation of that
as far as what we're seeing in UFOs and other things. Absolutely, and
Heinek had a really great term for it. He called it, he called
it metaterrestrial. He was never he was never a real big backer of the
extra terrestrial hypothesis, but he was fascinated by the metaterrestrial hypothesis. Wow.
Well, another question that came up, and I think I know a little
bit of this anyway. Do you know if Jallen Heineck had any collaboration with
Ray Stamford over the SoCoRo case. I know that he was there, and
but I don't know much more about it than you know. He did show
up, and he was there, and Ray met him there and all that.
Yeah, I did. I did have a talk with Ray at one
point, and Ray was kind of a just send me his book. Oh
yeah, Um, the Socorro Saucer and the Pentagon Pantry, I think that's
the title, um, And yeah, it's he was. He was absolutely
on site. He was one of the first people on site Tokoro and um.
And he was either kine or very close, very nearby Heineck when Heineck
was was there investigating the event. Um. The impression I get from Heineck's
take, and there's quite a bit of documentation on the Sacaro case. Um,
But the impression I get just from from the the Blue Pronject Bluebek file
and for material that I found in Heine's archives was um that he played.
He was playing his cards pretty close to his vest I think he sensed immediately
even before he arrived in New Mexico. I think Heineck was already thinking that
this case could be UM. It was a physical trace case. It was
a case that involved a craft that apparently left behind landing pad imprints and had
burned some some shrubs in the ground. Sound. Those were Heineck's favorite cases.
So I think I think, UM that Heineck kept a lot of what
he was thinking and seeing from mister Stanford. UM, that's the impression I
get. I don't really have any ironclad, you know, documentation for that,
um but myself. And it wasn't just mister Stanford. My impression isn't
Heineck kept a lot of what he was thinking about Sikoro to himself until he
could really figure it out. Because it really was, you know, it
was kind of a bombshell case. Uh it was. The witness was amazingly
reliable, incredible as a traffic cop who you know, didn't smoke, didn't
drink, you know, a very very credible witness, A close encounter the
third kind UM, the object was cited very close up there were occupants involved,
it was it was a huge case. So yeah, I think heine
um, I think Heinik just kind of I said close to his vest during
that case because there was a lot going on and I think he wanted to
be very very full of that. Um how oh he shared in for me.
Yeah, Um, are you able to hear me? Okay? Yes,
So yeah, we're having a bit of Um are you have can you
tell on your side? Um? I don't want to take up too much
time in this, but are you having some internet issues on your side that
you're aware of? No, everything looks good on my end, all right,
so I have I have had internet troubles over the past few days though,
so so there may be a problem. Okay, I may have to
have everything looks great great, all right, because you you are fading in
out, in and out quite a bit and and I may have to switch
to a calling you on the phone if it keeps up. And uh.
In that case, I would like for you to type and skype message.
Just type me your phone number, no, give your buzz back, so
I'll let you know as we go along here, sir. And so the
case that someone asked this real early on in the chat the case that changed
doctor Heineck's mind from being um someone that was to debunk um UFOs to someone
that hey, there's really something to this. How did all that happen?
Ah, it didn't happen all at once. I think that's that's a common
misconception that people have, is that there was some kind of Eureka moment when
when Heineck just suddenly saw the world differently and he completely changed his mind UFOs.
It was really a gradual zube and it began surprisingly as early as nineteen
fifty two, back when this was all still very very new. You got
better remember the Kenneth Arnold sighting had taken place in the summer of nineteen forty
seven, So nineteen fifty two, five years into this, Heineck is starting
to sort of waver. As I mentioned earlier, when he first started out
with this, he thought it was a fad. He thought it would die
out very quickly. He kind of made fun of it and made fun of
the people who had spotted the UFOs. But after five years, the Air
Force calls him back and says, hey, we still Heineck had left their
employee for a couple of years, so he comes back in nineteen fifty two
and he realizes, hey, not only has this fad not burned itself out,
but there's a remarkable consistent to go back. If he went back over
the previous five years of UFO reports that the Air Force had amassed, there
was a very clear twenty percent residue of cases that nobody could explain. Heineck
couldn't explain them, the Air Force couldn't explain them. They just sort of
hung there, define in explanation and puzzle them. And so when Heineck saw
that consistent pattern of twenty percent year after year, that's when he started to,
Okay, maybe there's something that I need to be paying attention to here,
Maybe I should start looking at things differently. So that was the star
part of the process. It honestly did. That process was really complete until
fourteen six in Michigan at the famous fabulous swamp gas case the Dexter Hillsdale in
southern Michigan. So it was it was really a fourteen year process from Heineck
first starting to sort of have some doubts about what he was doing, until
he, you know, finally reached a point where he decided Okay, I'm
gonna fool around anymore. I'm not gonna I'm not going to carry water for
the Air Force anymore. I'm going to start approaching this as a scientific problem.
Wow. Interesting. Do you know if he ever had a chance to
meet Betty and Barney Hill? Yes, he did, Yeah, yeah he
um yeah. In fact, that that was that was such a busy time
because um So, Barney and Betty Hills UFO abduction took place in nineteen sixty
one. But by the time that by the time the Hills had gone through
all the physical maladies, all their psychological issues resulting from that sighting which they
could not remember. Um by the time they ended up going under time regression
hypnosis to remember what had happened to them in the two missing hours of their
their honeymoon trip. We're getting into nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five. This
is right around the time of the Cicaro case that we were just discussing the
Secara, New Mexico case. Um So, uf there are there are some
really high profile, really remarkable, unexplainable UFO cases going on that have really
captivated the American public in the mid in the mid nineteen sixties. So um
Heineck ends up meeting Barney and Betty Hill in that later time frame I can't
remember exactly sixty four sixty five, at the behest of John Fuller, who
had just written, you know, two of the hands down the UFO books
ever incident at Exeter and the Interrupted Journey. Now Interrupted Journey was all about
Barney and Betty's abduction. So um Fuller invites doctor Heineck to have dinner with
him and doctor sim But doctor Benjamin Simon, who had performed the timer aggression
hypnosis, and Barney and Betty Hiller there too, So Heineck's at this amazing
dinner party with John Fuller, Benjamin Simon, Barney Hill, Betty Hill and
the Hills agree to go under hypnosis while doctor Henig is there. That's it
for the free part of the show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll
be back next week with a Venezuelan UFO researcher and his name is Thiago Louise
Tikti, and so check back next week and remember you can support the show
for two dollars or more per month that informations on podcast UFO. Thanks so
much, and we'll be back next week, keep your eyes to the sky