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And it hits me, Oh my
gosh, this is a triangle. You

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know, there's explanation for everything that
occurred in the randallsham Paris concident. It

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doesn't involve aliens at all. It
was completely silent. It comes right over

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our heads classics also really standing into
clearing. He turned over to my father

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and held his hand, and he
looked in his eyes and said, we're

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not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO
for our live show. We're live every

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00:00:29,519 --> 00:00:34,719
Wednesday at eight pm Eastern Standard Time
on the Dark Matter Radio Network. Please

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00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:40,520
remember to visit the website podcast ufo
dot com for past episodes, blogs,

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00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,719
and forums. During the show,
feel free to participate live in our chat

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00:00:44,799 --> 00:00:48,920
room, and don't forget to like
us on our very active Facebook page.

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Hello, and welcome to the show. This is Martin willis your host,

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and I am back from Russia.
That was way too long to be over

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there. It feels really really good
to be home. We are very lucky

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to live in the country that we
live in. And also just let you

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know that intro, I'm going to
have to change that because it says we're

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live on the Dark Matter Digital Network. I don't know where I found that

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intro, but that's an old one. We are not But however, if

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you can't support our show and you'd
like to listen to full shows, we

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are still on the Dark Matter Digital
network and that's every Thursday evening. It's

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a like a podcast, two hour
podcast every Thursday evening from ten to midnight.

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You can catch it there. You
can always catch our shows live for

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free. The full show. That's
either on YouTube on our YouTube channel you

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can subscribe to that, or on
podcast ufo dot com, and that's every

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Wednesday at eight to ten pm Eastern
Standard time. Also the Everything Else show.

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I did a show last Monday with
Nick Redfern. We talked about his

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theory on Roswell, which is entirely
different than I think most of us have

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heard. And also we talked about
cryptid animals and maybe kind of like the

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paranormal side of what his thoughts were
on that. Why no one has ever

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found a big foot? Why no
one has ever found any of these others

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that countless people say they see no
evidence. Why is that? So that's

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what we talk about now that if
you're a subscriber to the show, that

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comes out as a podcast and that
will be coming out on Saturday, so

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you can listen to those shows on
either Monday, or if you're a subscriber,

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you can listen to the show in
your media player for free. Speaking

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of supporters, we did the statistics
about three and a half percent of our

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listeners support the show. So I
want to say thank you very very much

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for that three and a half percent. That helps us out. That does

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pay the bills, and it's really
nice to have that. We do get

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a lot of downloads, use a
lot of bandwidth, dedicated server and all

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that. Our guests this evening is
Mark O'Connell and he's going to be talking

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about his book on Jay Allan.
Heinik very interesting man. And before that,

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Alejandro Rojas couldn't not make the UFO
updates. He double booked himself according

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to him, or he's playing hookie, so he's not going to be on

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this week. He'll be back next
week. Instead. I have Mick West.

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Now, Mick has been on the
show a couple of times and I

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really respect his work, his very
thorough work. He has metabunk dot org

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and we're gonna be talking about the
Nasca three fingered alien, and there's more.

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These mummies that's what we're gonna be
talking about and what his research and

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how he uncovered. The most likely
thought is that these are these are some

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type of hoax, whether in recent
hoax or an early hoax. But that's

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kind of what it boils down to. So we're gonna be talking about that,

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and welcome to the show. How
are you, Mick? Good?

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God? Great? So, first
of all, how do you find all

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these things? I mean, you
do one or two things a week that

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you dive into and try to find, you know, explanations for what they

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really are. So how do you
find all these things to take a look

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at and dive deep into what they
are? Well, you know, I've

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been doing it for a while,
so I kind of I think Facebook knows

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the type of thing that I like, so I get up type of things

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showing up on my Facebook feed.
But I also have a Google filter set

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for weird news and UFOs, and
every time a story pops up in the

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media, it just emails me with
the story and I give it a quick

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look to see its interesting and if
it is, I might delve into it

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a little bit. Now. The
last time we had you on, you

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were talking about the Chilean UFO,
and you basically kind of broke the story

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of what that really was. Now
the entire you know, Chilean government was

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behind that as being a UFO,
and you found all the data when the

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plane was exactly what where the plane
was, the course of it, and

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everything lined up perfectly. That changed
that whole story. Yeah, it was

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It was a it was a team
effort. Really. There was other people

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on Meta Bank who helped. But
yeah, we we we've done that type

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of thing before, like tracking down
a plane, and I think once we

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realized that it was probably a commercial
jet and we were able to track down

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the traffic for the area, it
was actually fairly straightforward. YEA. Yeah,

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we've basically done a lot of that
before. With the whole chem trail

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stuff that I'm looking into right right, I know that's another another one out

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there, um that you hear a
lot about. And basically since we're just

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touching on that subject real quickly,
Um, there's there's nothing, ever,

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there's no evidence that there is such
a thing as chem trails. Everybody says

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they're spraying things for climate control or
to control people and all that, Uh,

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there's no there's never any solid evidence
any anything like that is there not

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that I've come across. I mean, people bring up a lot of things.

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I mean, the most common thing
that people bring up is the idea

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that the trails shouldn't persist. But
I've got like whole, a whole bookshelf

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over there field of books on the
weather that explain that controls do persist,

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and they have done ever since planes
were invented. So the basic premise of

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the theory is flawed, and everything
else is just kind of follow them from.

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That doesn't really have to do with
altitude as well, with them hanging

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around. It does, yes,
it has to do with temperature, which,

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of course you know, as you
get higher it gets colder. So

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when you're up at thirty five thousand
feet, the temperature is usually forty below

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or colder, and that temperature the
exhaust basically condenses and freezes instantly and causes

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creates a contrail, which is really
just a type of cloud. It's not

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really anything special. It's not like
a smoke plume or anything. It's just

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a cloud triggered by the EXHAUSTA but
chet, you know, speaking of the

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altitude and temperature had Nick Redfurn on
my show and on Monday, and we

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were talking about high altitude balloons and
he said, you know, the higher

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they go, sometimes they'll burst because
of the heat of the sun. And

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I thought about it afterwards. You
know, I know that outside of a

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plane is you know, well below
zero, so that that's not really the

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case, is it. Once a
high altitude balloon keeps going higher, it

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doesn't get hotter, does it,
now? It doesn't really they burst because

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of the reductionary pressure. Yeah,
basically, like they'll just keep going up

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until the gas inside of them will
expand. And weather balloons, for example,

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are designed so that the balloon will
burst at a certain altitude and then

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the package the radioson at the bottom
will return back to Earth. So yeah,

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it's not really being heated up by
by by the sun, although if

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you get really really high, then
the air is too thin to actually take

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away the heat in the form of
cold, so it kind of works the

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other way around as you get a
lot higher, as I think called the

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thermopause where things actually get warmer as
you get higher. But generally to get

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calm about that, Now, what
is your background? Do you have a

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science background or is it just a
passion study of yours. No, I

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don't really have a science background.
My degree is in the computer science,

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which I don't really consider a science
myself, but it's there's a science on

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my degree. But I know when
I was young, I read a lot

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of science books. And now since
i've been doing metal bunk and control science,

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you know, contral science has been
going for about ten years now,

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I just had a lot of exposure
to these types of things and investigating this

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type of thing. And I used
the stuff from my background as a video

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game programer, where I do lots
of three D geometry calculations for the videographs

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I see, and it all just
kind of comes together and it's it's just

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what I do now, and so
I'm kind of got good at it for

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a while. Okay, so let's
talk about um the claims. First of

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all, Um, we know himI
Mosayin is um involved in this? And

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god have you say? Is it
gaya? Do you know how that's pronounced?

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Yeah? Guy, yeah, yeah, So they're involved in this,

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so um. And also I read
somewhere online that there's a symposium they're trying

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to put together. We're three hundred
and fifty dollars per ticket and that type

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of stuff. I couldn't find out
any date or anything when that's supposed to

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happen. But, um, what
is your h what was your conclusions on

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onto what these things are? Now
there's more of them that have been rolling

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out. One that looks like,
um it possibly it looks like it has

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eggs inside and stuff like that.
Um. So so let's let's talk about

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where this led you and what your
your conclusions were. Well, the first

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one I looked at was the large
specimen which came out in that Guya video,

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which is kind of it is killed
into fetal position. It looks odd

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because it has these three fingered hands
and three toed feet, and it has

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this strange looking face. But when
they actually show the X rays of it,

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that's kind of what you made me
suspect what it actually was, because

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if you look at the X rays
of the mummy, you'll see that the

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bones in the hand look exactly like
the middle three bones of a human hand,

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but with the little finger and the
thumb removed. There's a bunch of

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bones down here called the metacarpals.
Of the carpals are the ones at the

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bottom. These are the metacarpals,
and it looks like all look they did

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is they removed the little finger,
they removed the thumb, and then they

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split the hand down here. And
if you compare what is a human skeleton

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would look like, if you did
that to the X rays that they provide

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of the mummy, it would look
exactly the same. So it really looks

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like it's just a human human skeleton
that's been modified to look unusual. Do

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you think now there's speculation that you
know that this is very possible that this

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and I know that they modified some
of these mummies with animal bones and things

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like that, this is human bones, But do you think this was done

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a long time ago or any ideas
when it was done? You see,

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that's the thing that's kind of very
difficult to say. They say they've done

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they've done carbon dating on it,
which dates it back like a thousand years

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or so, but that obviously only
dates the actual material of the mummy.

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We don't know if the entire thing
dates back in a thousand years. They

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could have actually put it together from
other bits and pieces that are things that

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were actually mummified a thousand years ago. Now there is a possibility that it

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was actually created by the native people
a thousand years ago. Perhaps for some

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reason they were making strange looking mummies
out of their dead people. There's been

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suggestions that they were visited by aliens, and then they were trying to make

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their dead look like these aliens so
that they would be more like the gods

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as they would see them. And
you go up to join the gods,

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but you know, there's really nothing
to go by because no one's actually looked

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at the archaeological site where these specimens
are supposedly come from. And if you're

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doing archaeology, really the first thing
and the most important thing is to actually

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secure and examine the site so you
get a very solid record of exactly where

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these objects come from. And you
see them picking up these mummified hands and

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waving them around like they're nothing.
They don't seem to be really taking the

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whole thing very seriously. Well,
isn't it difficult to get permission to actually

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go into these places and actually remove
you know, archaeological Oh yeah, now

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they have the Ministry of Antiquities or
whatever it's called in Peru, But yeah,

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they they're not supposed to be doing
it. The official channels are supposed

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to do it. So you know, there's some debate in Peru about,

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you know, exactly what's been going
on and have they broken the law or

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is there any evidence that they've done
that. But if no one can actually

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prove that they took these things from
anywhere, then the authorities can't really prove

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00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,799
them prove that they have taken them
from anywhere. With that in itself implies

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00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,960
that they were faked. But really, you know, the important thing here

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would be seeing the archeological site.
Another thing obviously would be taking some DNA

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samples of and seeing what they're actually
made from. Right right now, As

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far as the cranial formation, that
that was nothing really that uncommon. I

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mean, they used to shape you
know, baby from infancy is to shoot

186
00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:07,159
that they still do in some places. And you can also occasionally get natural

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defamations of human skulls that turn out
like that. But yeah, cronial modification

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00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,279
of much more extreme forms. We've
seen that with the very long kind of

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cone head type shapes in some cultures, so that in itself isn't really suspicious.

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One thing that looks odd with the
mummy is the eyes. But the

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00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,279
thing about that is that they're not
really they don't really show up like that

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00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,000
on the skeleton. You can see
that those eyes and those eye slits appear

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00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,360
to have just been formed manually by
some kind of clay or something on the

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front of the face. And the
white. You know, at first they

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00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,360
thought the white was like a plaster, which is it is not. It's

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00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:50,000
something else that it's probably some type
of like oxidations, very dry there,

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00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:56,879
yeah, exactly what it is,
but it's not plaster. They say in

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00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:01,440
one of the videos that it was
diamaticus earth, which is it's a common

199
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,840
material that you can buy at a
gardening suppliest or used for like a type

200
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,080
of fertilizer essentially, or a bug
killer, and it's just it's a desiccant.

201
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,120
It's a thing that makes things dry. So if the white stuff is

202
00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:20,200
diamaticus earth, that would be something
you could figure out where that actually came

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00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,080
from, because it may it may
well be that that that region Cusco is

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00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,039
very high, you know, it's
Cusco a like thirteen thousand feet. So

205
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I don't know if they're going to
have diamaticus earth because that's the remainder of

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the remains of seashells. So I
don't know if they would have a source

207
00:15:33,879 --> 00:15:37,600
of that. It sounds the fact
that it is that sounds kind of modern.

208
00:15:39,279 --> 00:15:41,080
And it's very bright, you know, whether that when they first said

209
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it, someone said it was plaster
or said that. You know, I

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00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:48,840
from my personal experience as an appraiser, know that plaster are always yellows over

211
00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:52,600
time, you know, it doesn't
stay bright like that. Yeah, yeah,

212
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:58,559
this is essentially it's calcified sea creatures, tiny little, tiny, little

213
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like Mirsa. I don't know if
you know what Mersham is, Yeah,

214
00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:07,840
I don't. It's they actually make
pipes and carvings out of it. It's

215
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,159
yeah, oh yeah. Now the
thing that got me right off the bat

216
00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:15,799
when I first saw this someone sent
me the original video, and right off

217
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:18,960
the bat is the alien. You
know, why do they have to throw

218
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,519
the alien tag on this thing?
Right off the bat? I mean,

219
00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:30,840
they are discovering human you know,
different types of human type skeletons they always

220
00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:33,440
have, and so why right off
the bats say it's alien? I mean

221
00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:38,000
yeah, And if you if you
saw the article I wrote on it,

222
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I made a list of I think
like seven different things it could possibly be.

223
00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:45,720
And you do, from the most
probable thing to the least probable thing,

224
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,480
and alien seems to be pretty much
the least likely thing that it would

225
00:16:52,480 --> 00:17:00,519
be. Various types of fake or
natural occurrence are more possible, things like,

226
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,480
you know, it could be a
previously undiscovered animal, like some kind

227
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,960
of ape or something like that,
but itself, it's very unlively something you

228
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,920
can prove very quickly by doing some
DNA testing, which they you know,

229
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,680
they haven't done, are they do
You happen to know if that is something

230
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,839
they're going to be doing and revealing
before they have this supposium, or are

231
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,440
they going to I don't know what
their plans are. You know, if

232
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I was to guess at what their
plans are, I think they're going to

233
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try to draw this out as long
as they can, and they will eventually

234
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,319
say that it is, you know, some kind of composite thing, either

235
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a human skeleton or other smaller ones
will be human skeletons bones mixed with animal

236
00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:48,799
bones, and I think that's advantage
actually where they're going to get and that

237
00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:52,519
it was made to look in the
image of aliens, so they've still got

238
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:56,039
that kind of connection and it's still
kind of an interesting thing. But I

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00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:00,200
don't think they're going to be able
to keep up the idea that these are

240
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,759
actual alien remains. Right. Well, hey, Mick, thanks so much.

241
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,000
And you know, I think you
were on the very first time you

242
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:14,279
were on is when someone was saying
they were sparting a triangle UFO on the

243
00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:18,319
moon, and you figure you figured
that out exactly what that was had nothing

244
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,640
They just had to do with the
way the images were pieced together, all

245
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,920
right if I remember, right,
Yeah, that's right, all right,

246
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,079
thanks so much, and everyone it's
yeah, it was just an image pixel

247
00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:33,839
right right, all right. So
this is Mick Weston. He's from Metabunk.

248
00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:40,279
It's spelled just the way it sounds
m eta bunk dot org. Check

249
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:45,039
out his website and he has uncovered
a lot. He is the friendly debunker.

250
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,079
Okay, so a lot of debunkers
have a bad name, but he's

251
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,440
the friendly debunker. Thanks a lot, Mick. All right, I here

252
00:18:52,599 --> 00:19:00,200
care bye, all right, so
uh let's see make you're gonna have to

253
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,119
hang up if you would, Um, I can't. I can't do that

254
00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:07,519
separately from our guests. So our
guest, thank you, our guests,

255
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:14,000
good talking to you. Here.
We are our guest, as Mark O'Connell.

256
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,359
Mark has been on the show before, and actually when he was on

257
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,319
the show last time, Um,
he did bring up the fact that he

258
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:26,480
was writing a book on doctor Jay
Allan Heinik and and he did, and

259
00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:30,160
um, and it's a great book. I've heard a couple of interviews.

260
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,240
I have not read the book.
I hope to. And that's the thing.

261
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,720
You know, a lot of people
ask I had someone asking the last

262
00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,000
show basically, why aren't you reading
the books? Well, I have a

263
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:44,559
full time career as well as doing
this show. I read. I love

264
00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:48,640
to read, but I can't read
books like George Napkin read a book in

265
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,599
a day. It takes me a
long time to read a book. I'm

266
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,319
not like that. So anyway,
I'm here with Mark O'Connell. How are

267
00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,640
you Mark? I am great,
Martin, thanks for having me here.

268
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,200
And I think you were. You
were on the show just before you started

269
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,839
writing the book. If I if
I got that right, I'm a little

270
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,440
I'm a little foggy on when that
that was the last couple of years of

271
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,960
my life. Have been so full
of research for the book that my timetable

272
00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:23,279
sort of get compressed and screwed up. Well, you were on, Um,

273
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:29,759
I remembered that I think I connected
you with Ray Stanford because Ray knew

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00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,319
doctor Heinik. Hmm, yes that
yeah, okay, then that does go

275
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:40,319
back probably at least three years,
I guess, yeah, right, yes,

276
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,000
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would have to be that

277
00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:49,559
far. Right. So, how
is the book doing. It's doing pretty

278
00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:53,720
well. We're having steady sales.
Um. Just publishing world is all new

279
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,559
to me, the right The professional
writing I've done in the past has generally

280
00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:03,079
been um for the screen TV and
movie scripts, and that world moves it.

281
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,680
It seems slow when you're you're in
it, but compared to publishing,

282
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:12,039
is it's pretty fast. Publishing is. Things move very slowly in publishing.

283
00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:18,920
I'm learning you have to measure things
in weeks and so you know, I'm

284
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,920
just doing a lot of doing a
lot of media appearances still and doing a

285
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,559
lot of social media and just enjoying
the hell out of this whole book promotion.

286
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,559
That's great. And now when you
when you wrote the book, hang

287
00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:34,279
on, let me just fix something
here. When you wrote the book,

288
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,680
well, I should put it this
way, what made you decide to write

289
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,079
about Heineck himself? I didn't really
decide that the opportunity kind of fell into

290
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,519
my lap. I'm sure the last
time I did your show, I talked

291
00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:59,799
about my blog High Strangeness High strangencufo
dot com. Um I started that about

292
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:06,039
five years ago and was always looking
for new material to write it about,

293
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,200
and sort of stumbled across a website
for the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago

294
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,400
while I was living in Chicago at
the time, and thought, Hey,

295
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,039
I need to I need to pay
these guys a visit. So I got

296
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,640
a hold of Mark Rodiger, who
was the scientific director of Goop. So

297
00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:29,799
I should add KUPOS is the UFO
research organization founded by j Allen Heinik in

298
00:22:29,839 --> 00:22:33,960
the nineteen seventies, so they were
still around in Chicago five years ago,

299
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:40,240
and um I, as I said, I contacted Mark Rodiger. He invited

300
00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:42,720
me to stop buying to take a
look at their archives, and I did,

301
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,359
and that became the first of a
whole series of visits. There was

302
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,319
so much fun stuff in the archives
at Mark's house that I just kept going

303
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,920
back over and over again to just
look through files and look for fun UFO

304
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:59,799
documents and books and things. Finally, on one of those one of those

305
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,640
it's Mark just kind of casually mentioned, hey, we've always been looking for

306
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:10,640
someone to write the definitive account of
doctor Heineck's career, and I said,

307
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,599
please, I would love to do
that. So that's how it all started.

308
00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:15,559
I was just I was in the
right place at the right time.

309
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,720
Mark just made this comment that day
and I just jumped on it. So

310
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,119
that was the start of this long, long, crazy ride. And it's

311
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,880
it's been Fenn. Yes, Um, I think I mentioned to you the

312
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,759
other day that I was I was
looking for interviews with Heineck and I actually

313
00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:41,759
was watching one with Tom Snyder,
talk show host, and yeah, and

314
00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:45,759
that was great. So I'm still
in touch with Actually knew Tom. He

315
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,440
was a neighbor when I lived out
in California and I he passed away.

316
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,839
I met him just before we passed
away at about a year. I had

317
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,920
and great guy. He loved Dan
Akroyd's imitation. Him and Dan actually were

318
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,480
friends. Danneric or iad used to
do an invitation on Saturday Night Live of

319
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,319
Tom Snyder as the talk host shows
for anyone, you know, this goes

320
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,880
way back into the early eighties,
I believe. Anyway, So I talked

321
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:19,759
to Tom's his widow, Pam Burke, who's a producer. She was a

322
00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:25,279
producer of his show as well,
and she said that Jay Alan Heinek was

323
00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:30,039
one of their very very favorite guests. They loved him. They said he

324
00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:36,920
was really funny, and he was
so interesting and brilliant and they just loved

325
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,319
having him on the show. Well, I've I've watched the I don't know

326
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:44,480
if it's the entire interview, but
you can see at least portions of it

327
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:49,319
on YouTube, and it is a
really fun It's a fun interview to listen

328
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,720
to. You can tell that,
you can tell that Heineck felt he was

329
00:24:55,079 --> 00:25:00,799
talking with someone who respected what he
had to say and so, you know,

330
00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,880
and so that that animated Heineck,
you know, more than he might

331
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,759
have been, you know, into
some other interviews. So they had a

332
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:11,720
nice energy together for sure. Yeah. Now, the thing I think is

333
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:18,319
the most fascinating part about Heineck is
the switchover. You know, he was

334
00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:22,839
the guy too debunk and then all
of a sudden it's like, hey,

335
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:29,160
there's really something to this and then
totally dives into it. What do you

336
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,160
know in your research about him,
as say, from childhood on if he

337
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,640
had a fascination with say, science
fiction or anything like that. Did you

338
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,799
uncover any of that, Yeah,
there is, there's definitely some of that

339
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,440
in his background. He was born
in nineteen ten as Hallie's Comma was appearing

340
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,039
in the sky, so he was
he was born under the comet, which

341
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:56,559
seemed to have some influence on his
life. When he was about eight years

342
00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:02,039
old, he came down with scarlet
fever and he was bedridden for many,

343
00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:07,279
many days, and his mother just
went through every book in the house and

344
00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:11,680
then started borrowing books from neighbors so
that she could keep her son occupied,

345
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,559
and so she read some of the
books to him. He read some of

346
00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:21,519
the books himself, but one of
those books was an astronomy textbook. So

347
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,559
from the research I did, that
was that moment when he was sick in

348
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:32,079
bed at age eight was his first
real contact with the scientific world. And

349
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,039
apparently he he fell in love with
astronomy. He fell in love with the

350
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,440
stars while reading that book when he
was eight years old. He also had

351
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,640
interests in writing. He was really
a pretty good writer in his high school

352
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,759
days. He was a regular contributor
to his high school's literary magazine. He

353
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,440
wrote some really fun short stories.
Wow, isn't it funny? How like

354
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,519
a turn in life can just change
everything you know? And a lot of

355
00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:00,920
times you do here about it is
a sickness that changes someone's life and get

356
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,559
some interested in things that just turned
before. I forget this, Um,

357
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:08,559
Shane in the chat room and welcome
back Shane, I should say, welcome

358
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:12,279
back me in the regular time slot. Is uh. Shane wanted to know

359
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:17,839
if the image on the book was
an actual unexplained UFO. What are any

360
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,160
story on that that? That is
art that was created by the HarperCollins uh,

361
00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:30,480
graphic art. I mean, it's
it's clear. It's clear that they

362
00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:34,759
looked at a lot of vinded UFO
pictures because they really captured that look in

363
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:38,880
that style of those kinds of images
like the Rex suffering photos for example.

364
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,640
Um, but yeah, I believe
that was completely created by there are.

365
00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:48,480
Wow, you could have lied,
you had your chance made up? Yeah,

366
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,359
sorry, Missbuster. Yeah. Well, skepticism is the theme of a

367
00:27:53,359 --> 00:28:00,119
little bit. Yeah all right,
So um, hi Nick, he we're

368
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,799
going back home. This is many
years ago. So he was contacted first

369
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,400
by the Air Force. At what
point and how was he standing as an

370
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:18,200
astronomer at that time. Why did
they reach out to him. He had

371
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,440
virtually no standing as an astronomer.
Actually he had been. He was teaching

372
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:32,799
at the Ohio State University and Ohien
Wesleyan University, and he was a I

373
00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:34,880
think at this point he may have
been an associate professor. Not a big

374
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,759
wheel in the world of science or
astronomy or academia at all. He was

375
00:28:40,839 --> 00:28:44,039
just, you know, he was
a young, young professor, kind of

376
00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:49,720
making his way in the world.
But he had spent some time during World

377
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:57,680
War two engaged in some high security
work for the US government, working on

378
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:03,200
what was called the proximity fuse.
The first smart weapon was developed in during

379
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,440
World War Two. It was a
It was a radio device that you could

380
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,559
put in the nose of a warhead
and it would send out radio waves ahead

381
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:15,839
of it as it was flying through
the air, and it could be programmed

382
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:23,160
to detonate when the return time of
those bounced off radio waves would return to

383
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:27,799
the fuse. It could tell how
close it was to the target, and

384
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:32,039
it could set the warhead off at
a certain distance. So as you can

385
00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:34,519
imagine, this made things a lot
safer for our gunners. They didn't always

386
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:38,240
have to hit a bull's eye every
time, and so a lot more lived

387
00:29:38,319 --> 00:29:44,200
as a result of that. So
Heineck had high security clearance because he had

388
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,759
worked on this project. So here
you've got the poor as a right,

389
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:55,319
Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton,
Ohio. So they're right down the road

390
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:59,640
from Columbus where the universities are.
Were Heinex teaching, and they are starting

391
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,480
to get in late nineteen forty seven, early nineteen forty eight, they are

392
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:08,519
starting to get buried in UFO reports. Ever since Kenneth Arnold had seen his

393
00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:15,559
string of flying saucers flying through the
Cascade Mountains in June of nineteen forty seven,

394
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:21,880
UFOs were on everybody's mind, and
the Air Force was getting deluged with

395
00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:26,160
dozens and dozens and dozens of strange
UFO reports from around the country. Well,

396
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:33,319
they were doing their best to explain
away, to debunk these reports as

397
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:41,519
misidentifications of perfectly ordinary things airplanes,
balloons, birds, astronomical objects. So

398
00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,759
and they were they were pretty good
at explaining those sightings away, but they

399
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:53,160
needed they need a credible, no
nonsense, scientific spokesperson to back them up

400
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:59,279
on this. So Heinick was teaching
at a university literally or right up the

401
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:04,279
road, and he already had had
some top secret government security clearance, so

402
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,480
he was a guy who could be
put to work on this project with a

403
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:12,799
minimum of red tape. So the
Air Force guys paid Heineke visit at Ohio

404
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,799
State one day and said, say, have you ever heard of these flying

405
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,039
saucers? And Heineke had heard of
them, and he thought they were kind

406
00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:23,279
of a joke. He thought they
were embarrassing, and really he thought they

407
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:26,559
were a fad. He believed that
this was a fad that would die out

408
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:30,839
in no time. But they asked
him if he would sign on as a

409
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:37,240
consultant to look over these UFO reports
and let them know which of these reports

410
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:44,319
he could write off as simply a
misidentification of an astronomical body or an astronomical

411
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,960
occurrence. So that was his job
on what was then called Project Sign.

412
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:52,200
He was he was very good at
it, and he actually kind of enjoyed

413
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,759
debunking all these UFO reports because,
as I said, he thought it was

414
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,000
he thought it was a fad,
and I think he thought that by debunking

415
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,039
the Air Force's reports, he could
hasten the demise of this fad which was

416
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,559
very much anti science as far as
he was concerned. Wow, well,

417
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:13,880
we have some questions coming in on
the chat room. Someone wanted to know

418
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,400
with if he ever had any view
on Roswell. Now, I know Roswell

419
00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:22,720
wasn't made much of at the time. Basically, you know, it was

420
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:27,519
like a two day event and swept
under the rock. Basically, yeah,

421
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,319
you're right, at the time,
it really, it really was inconsequential.

422
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:37,000
I'll tell you a little background on
that for your your questionnaire. When I

423
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:40,720
was researching the book, I could
not find anything for the longest time that

424
00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:47,480
Heinech ever said or wrote or thought
about the Roswell story, or about any

425
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,799
saucer crash story, because of course
there are many saucer crash stories, not

426
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,559
just the Roswell story. So I
was having a hard time finding anything.

427
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,240
And at one point I was talking
with Mark Rodiger again the sign to FIC,

428
00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:04,039
director of the Heineck Center for UFO
Studies, and I said, you

429
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:08,079
know, when I get to Roswell, I don't think I'm going to really

430
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:13,079
have much to say about it in
this book. And Mark said, well,

431
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,559
you know what, you don't really
need to say anything about Roswell in

432
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:20,680
the book he said, he said
it was really not a factor in Heineck's

433
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:25,079
career or in his thinking at all. And well, I thought it would

434
00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:29,440
be a mistake to not mention Roswell
at all. That would be kind of

435
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,119
hard hard to do in a book
that is focusing on the history of UFOs.

436
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,880
So there is a short segment in
the book about Roswell. But Heineck

437
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:44,839
made it very clear in several interviews
that he was extremely uncomfortable with saucer crash

438
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,839
stories. And the big, big
reason for that was if you start talking

439
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,279
about a flying saucer crash landing and
leaving behind a debris field, leaving behind

440
00:33:55,359 --> 00:34:04,480
wreckage, then what you're actually saying
is that object was a physical, manufactured

441
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:08,679
object. And Heineck was absolutely not
into that idea at all. That nuts

442
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:14,079
and bolts theory. Heineck stayed as
far away from that as he possibly could.

443
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:19,199
So so Heineck just Heineck did a
really good job of keeping his hands

444
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,000
clean where where Roswell was concerned,
and again that applies to pretty much every

445
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:27,280
saucer craft story. Heineck just didn't
want to have anything, and that goes

446
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,039
all the way to the end of
his life he felt that way. Yeah,

447
00:34:31,079 --> 00:34:34,760
how about that? Yeah he did. Now, had he ever had

448
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,760
a sighting himself? Yes, I'm
so glad you asked that, because I

449
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,000
have to tell you, Martin,
I kind of laugh at myself now,

450
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,280
But I was almost completely done writing
the book before that question even occurred to

451
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,320
me, and I thought, wait
a minute, I need to find out

452
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,039
if Heineck ever saw any UFOs himself. And it turns out he had.

453
00:34:57,079 --> 00:35:00,840
He had had two different UFO sightings. I can't remember the dates offhand,

454
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:06,760
but he had seen a UFO out
of the window of a commercial airliner one

455
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,960
time. I believe it was a
night flight, and he did take some

456
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:15,320
pictures of it, but as is
so often the case with UFO pictures taken

457
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,480
at the spur of the moment,
you can't really tell a whole lot from

458
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,320
the image on the film. So
he saw the UFO from the airplane.

459
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:29,440
And then years later he was at
his family's vacation cottage in Ontario, Canada,

460
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,079
which is a very remote location cabin
built on a lake in the deep

461
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,800
deep northwoods of Ontario, and he
saw something one day over the over the

462
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:46,320
lake that where his cabin was built, and he had no phone at the

463
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,519
cabin, so there wasn't really a
whole lot he could do about it.

464
00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:52,039
They were very, very isolated.
But when he had a chance, he

465
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:58,280
did contact someone at the Canadian Air
Force or Air Ministry, I'm not sure

466
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,079
what they call it, and he
gave them the details of his sighting,

467
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:04,920
the date at the time, the
you know, latitude and longitude, and

468
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,079
said, you know, did anybody
else report this? And he came up

469
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:12,360
empty handed. There there were no
other reports that he was ever able to

470
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,760
find. So so he saw two
UFOs, but um, they were both

471
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,800
seen very far away, so he
couldn't count them as close encounters. Uh,

472
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,320
So there was there was no real
wow factor to his UFO sightings.

473
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,960
I'll say wow still, I'll say
wow too. But he was. But

474
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:31,480
he he confessed, and I quote
him in the book that he was.

475
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,280
He was rather disappointed. He felt
rather left out. How about that that

476
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,480
he hadn't that he hadn't had a
close Well, Blue Sky asked that question

477
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,000
in the chat room. Methought that
was a good question to ask. So,

478
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:50,039
um, he was such an interesting
man. And um he also came

479
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:52,199
up with the person that doesn't know
this. He's the one that came up

480
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:58,159
with the term of the different encounters
close encounters of the first kind, second

481
00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:02,519
kind, third kind, fourth kind. And that is that something he actually

482
00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:05,559
coined. How did that? Do
you know? How that came about?

483
00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:14,000
Was? It was part of a
long process with him. He actually started

484
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:20,519
to think in terms of categorizing UFO
events in the late nineteen sixties, when

485
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:27,119
the Condon Committee at the University of
Colorado had essentially actually taken overall UFO research

486
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,599
US government while the time during the
during the time that they were that they

487
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:36,920
were in existence, and during that
time, Heineck wrote he actually wrote an

488
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,480
article that appeared in Playboy magazine in
nineteen sixty seven, and in that article

489
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:46,320
he started formulating his ideas for classifying
UFO events that he was hoping that the

490
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:53,159
Colorado Committee people would adopt. He
thought maybe once maybe somebody on the committee

491
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:59,079
would read Playboy and see his ideas
there. So at that early stage,

492
00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:04,800
his idea was simple to isolate cases
that had a high strangeness factor, which

493
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:13,079
means anything that doesn't really comport with
the known laws of nature and physics,

494
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:19,639
and also cases that had a high
credibility factor for the witnesses, which basically,

495
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,880
you know, goes into the witnesses
social standing, their state of mohind,

496
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,559
their education, you know, all
these factors. So Heinekes isolate these

497
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:37,440
strangeness factor with high credibility witnesses and
start looking for patterns among those sightings that

498
00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:44,000
might be a way into at least
starting to understand the UFO phenomenon. Well,

499
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,960
the counting committee did not adopt those
ideas in the end, but heine

500
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:53,119
kept going with his thinking and eventually
he sort of expanded things to um a

501
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,559
system that he really first wrote about
it in nineteen seventy two book The UFO

502
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:02,199
Experience, which everyone should read.
It's a great, great book. And

503
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:09,039
he had actually two systems of three
categories each. The first one was general

504
00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:17,960
categorizations of UFO sightings that would include
number one daylight, number two meandering nocturnal

505
00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:22,559
lights, and number three visual radar
sightings. He was most interested in the

506
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:27,519
visual radar sightings because he felt that
those had the most scientific value. So

507
00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:30,760
on top of those three categories,
then he went a step further and developed

508
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:37,880
the three close encounter categories. In
close encounter number one was visual contact with

509
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,679
the UFFO within about five hundred yards. He thought that was close enough so

510
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:51,480
that the witness could make out physical
details siziye sheep outline things, things of

511
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:57,039
that nature. Close encounter number two
involved physical evidence. So in this case

512
00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:04,400
CE two K would involve the U
leaving behind say um landing pad imprints or

513
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,400
or scorched grass where a UFO was
seen to have landed. Possibly some physical

514
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,480
effects among the witnesses, you know, retinal burns or sunburns or things like

515
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,960
that. All of those things have
been have been reported. Or one of

516
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,360
my favorites, um making cars stall
out and their headlights god dead. So

517
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:30,159
encounter the third kind, the big
one, involves, of course UFO occupants

518
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,239
entities that are associated with the UFO
and either come out of the UFO or

519
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,239
are seen close to the UFO.
And in those cases, of course,

520
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,719
the witnesses sometimes they merely see these
entities from a distance. Sometimes they actually

521
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:49,000
interact with the entities. So you've
got so and then you've got those six

522
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:52,320
categories, and of course they overlapped. Something that began as a simple daylight

523
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:59,039
disc could come within five hundred yards
of you and suddenly become a close encounter

524
00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:04,400
case. So that's how Heineck systematized. I think that's a word. That's

525
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,280
how That's how Heineck organized his thinking. And because he just believed that you

526
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,679
know, um, as with all
scientific data, if you can categorize it

527
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,199
and start seeing patterns, that is
the best way to start to understand the

528
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,360
Yeah. Yeah, did he as
far as you know, did he ever

529
00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:27,360
think that he was going to be
alive long enough to find out what was

530
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:34,280
going on? Like we all do. I love that question. I think

531
00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:37,559
I think he was like a lot
of us. Yes, yes, I

532
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:42,880
think he starting out, I think
he really believed that it would be possible

533
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,840
for us to solve the mystery,
to answer all the questions we have about

534
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,639
what these objects are. I think
later in life, um, you know,

535
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,719
his hopes dimmed a little. Uh. There's a lot in my book

536
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,960
about that when he ended up,
um leaving Chicago and moving to Arizona,

537
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:04,280
when he thought that he had financial
backing to form a really world class UFO

538
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:10,320
research center in Scott's still there's um
and then and then that fell by the

539
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,880
wayside for a lot of complicated reasons. So yeah, towards the end,

540
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,679
I think, um, I think
Kinek kind of lost faith that we would

541
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:23,800
ever understand the problem. But here's
the interesting twist to that. I also

542
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,079
think, just from my readings of
his final interviews and his final talks with

543
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:31,440
friends and his final writings, UM, I think that he was actually okay

544
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:37,920
with that. I think he actually
was starting to think that as as I

545
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,280
say in the book, some mysteries
are meant to be savored and not necessarily

546
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,840
solved. I think I think he
reached a point where he was okay with

547
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:52,320
not knowing as long as we kept
trying to find out what it is.

548
00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:54,440
I think that's all we can all
help for, you know, I mean,

549
00:42:54,519 --> 00:43:00,800
I I don't have any It goes
back to watch a documentary, an

550
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:07,519
early UFO documentary that was somewhere in
like the sixties, and there was a

551
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:09,920
an older guy in that and he
was saying, you know, I think

552
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,440
we'll find out in my lifetime.
He said that, I'm thinking this guy's

553
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,079
long gone. Um. So it
kind of made me think about the whole

554
00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:21,159
topic in that in that way and
think, hey, you know, I'll

555
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:24,880
probably never know. Um, it
is interesting to explore the topic. That's

556
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,719
why I love, you know,
doing the show. UM, we have

557
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,519
a question in the forum for you
from Kerry, and that question is,

558
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:38,920
as Alan Heinik was an astronomer,
how did his peers and astronomy regard him

559
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,039
with his UFO research, especially when
his opinion changed about his belief in UFOs

560
00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:53,000
in later years. A very very
loaded question. That's that's a complicated one.

561
00:43:53,440 --> 00:44:00,960
Hicks peck relations with his fellow scientists
um were sometimes very troubled, sometimes

562
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:07,800
very very negative. He didn't always
make a whole lot of friends in the

563
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,719
scientific community. And of course you
know some immediate names bought up Donald Menzel,

564
00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:15,360
who was one of the directors of
the Harvard Observatory. He was he

565
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,719
was an astronomy superstar and he hated
you a post and everything to do with

566
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,800
them. So he was a thorn
in heineck side for many, many years.

567
00:44:24,519 --> 00:44:30,000
Doctor James McDonald at the University of
Arizona became a UFO believer and just

568
00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:36,119
and just visited Heineck once and just
pounded on his desk and said, damn

569
00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:37,679
it, Allen, why have you
been sitting on all this good data and

570
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:43,719
not sharing it with the rest of
the world. So he had he had

571
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:50,119
issues with fellow astronomers, but on
the flip side u sometimes he had some

572
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,760
very surprising allies in the scientific world. When he got into the late sixties

573
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,760
early seventies, after he had stopped
working for the Air Force, when he

574
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:04,039
could sort of become um he could
be, he could become more flexible and

575
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:09,760
actually more or free in in how
he studied the UFO phenomenon. Once he

576
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:17,400
was discerned, he actually started to
gather around him this asciation and they ended

577
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:22,599
up the College LuSE Association of Scientists
and some pretty heavy hitters in the world

578
00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:30,360
of science and academia who were willing
thinking to It doesn't mean that they believed

579
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:35,119
this, that or the other thing
about the UFO phenomenon, but it meant

580
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:39,480
that they were they agreed with Heineck
that this subject was interesting enough and had

581
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:45,239
a level of reality to it that
made it worthy of serious scientific study.

582
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:51,920
So so for every scientist to Heinech
had a really bad, horrible relationship,

583
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:58,760
there were there was another scientist who
who kind of believed in what Heineck was

584
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,920
doing and wanted to joined forces with
him. So that's kind of a very

585
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,800
heartening part of the story that there
there was always somebody listening to Heinich.

586
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,800
Even when he thought nobody was listening
to him. Talking with Stan Friedman a

587
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,000
while ago, he mentioned that Donald
Menzel actually had a CIA connection. It

588
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:20,039
was uncovered. You know, he
had a high security clearance and so there

589
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,239
was a that's kind of a mystery. Um you know why he was so

590
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:30,679
adamant against the UFO topic. Well, especially since Donald Menzel had actually seen

591
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:37,039
really as as had James McDonald.
Yeah, yeah, how about that.

592
00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:39,719
Yeah, it's it's weird. Yeah, there, Donald Menzel, I could

593
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,480
probably write a book about him.
He's kind of a mystery man there.

594
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,719
There are a lot of parts to
that guy's story that really don't seem to

595
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,679
fit together. Very wow, interesting
your next book? You heard it all

596
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,760
here, folks. Yeah. Um, you know, were having a little

597
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,960
bit of a sky. I have
a couple I have a couple ideas.

598
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,079
Oh well, are you serious?
So go ahead and talk about it if

599
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:06,360
you would. Oh, I was
just gonna say I have a couple of

600
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:13,960
The idea is um. But we're
still so devolved in in promoting this book

601
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:17,639
and spreading the word that I'm not
even I'm not close to starting work on

602
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:22,159
a second book. But but I
have some ideas percolating, and they're not

603
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,199
all UFO related. Okay, so
I'll be honest. Problem, Hey,

604
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,440
can you turn off the camera on
your skype? We're having some skype issues

605
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,400
and I'm hoping that that will solve
it, you know perhaps. Yeah,

606
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,400
just that's perfect, Yes, right
there, that's fine. Um, so

607
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,079
we'll go this. We'll go this
way a while and see if if it

608
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:39,719
doesn't sound any better than you can
turn your camera back on. But we'll

609
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,840
go this way for now. UM. So let me just see if we

610
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,360
have any questions up in in chat. Um. There's probably something I'll have

611
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,800
to scroll back now when you're when
you were doing this research for the book,

612
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,559
Um, what was the I guess
what I'd like to ask you is

613
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:02,519
what was some of the things you
uncovered that you had no idea about about

614
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:07,239
Heineck? Was there anything like that
that you just said, wow, this

615
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:13,440
is really interesting. Oh yeah,
there were. There were a number of

616
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,559
moments like that. One of the
first was I've already told you the story

617
00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:22,800
of how I would visit the KUFOS
archives in Chicago and dig dig into their

618
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:29,159
files in their bookshelves. So when
I started officially working on the book,

619
00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:34,119
that was where I spent a lot
of my time. Eventually I started to

620
00:48:34,199 --> 00:48:39,280
visit the archives across town in Evanston, Illinois, at the Northwestern University Library,

621
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,840
Heineck had taught astronomy, had been
chairman of the astronomy department for many

622
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,440
years. He had he had taught
ot there for almost a quarter of a

623
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:54,639
century, very very long and happy
career there, and um Northwestern has a

624
00:48:54,719 --> 00:49:00,800
huge, huge collection of Heineck's work, papers and correspondent and news clippings and

625
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:07,320
all sorts of treasures. So the
one of the first big surprises for me

626
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:13,360
was what an amazing career as an
astronomer he had had. And I discovered

627
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:19,920
all of that at Northwestern University and
then later on at the University of Chicago,

628
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:23,639
which is where Heinech had had gone
to college and gotten his doctorate his

629
00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:30,199
PhD in astronomy. They also had
a huge, wonderful collection of Heineck's papers

630
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:35,159
from the very early years of his
career. So between the You of Chicago

631
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,000
archives of his early years and then
the Northwestern archives of his later years,

632
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:51,960
I had developed this amazing picture of
a of a really really was a pioneer

633
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,079
in the field of celestial imaging.
I mentioned in the book at least once

634
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,039
that really, without Heineck, I
don't think we would have had all the

635
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:05,679
orbital telescopes we now have, including
the Kepler telescope, which is spotting all

636
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:12,760
these planets. Heinich was. Heinick
was inspiration for that kind of technology.

637
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,559
He was quite an amazing guy.
He never saw himself as a superstar scientist

638
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:22,440
and never really wanted to be one, but he had some pretty impressive contributions

639
00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:25,400
to science, to astronomy, So
that was kind of the first big thing.

640
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:31,239
The second big surprise was that he
had this really interesting spiritual side.

641
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,639
He wasn't a religious guy at all. His son Paul told me, he

642
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,119
said, we never had any religion
in our house. We were very atypical

643
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:44,320
in that regard. But but in
his young years in high school in college

644
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:50,760
he had read a lot of writings
of the Rosaecrucians and a spiritual leader named

645
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:58,639
Rudolf Steiner, and Heineck was really
really interested in the topics that they talked

646
00:50:58,679 --> 00:51:02,519
about, and those included, you
know, making contact with the afterlife.

647
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,199
Rudolf Steiner wrote about something he called
the supersensible realm, which is really a

648
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:14,320
fancy name for a parallel dimension that
he thought existed alongside ours and that we

649
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,559
could enter anytime we wanted to,
if we could train ourselves to. Those

650
00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:21,960
are the kinds of ideas that Heineck
loved reading about as he was growing up

651
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:24,719
and later in life when he was
last year of his life or so,

652
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:30,559
when he was after he'd been diagnosed
with brain cancer and he was in his

653
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:35,559
last months of his life, he
returned to that spiritual side of things again.

654
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,960
So that was the second big,
big surprise. So you've got this

655
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:42,079
guy who, for me, at
the outset of this project, he was

656
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:45,840
purely one dimensional. He was this
UFO guru. Well it turns out no,

657
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:47,519
he was the UFO guy, he
was the astronomy guy, and then

658
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:53,280
he was this spiritual guys. Really
fascinating, amazing. Yeah, that is

659
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:59,199
something, and who knows he might
be right with the dimensions. You never

660
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,679
know. There's still a lot of
there's still a lot of speculation of that

661
00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:09,039
as far as what we're seeing in
UFOs and other things. Absolutely, and

662
00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:13,199
Heinek had a really great term for
it. He called it, he called

663
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,719
it metaterrestrial. He was never he
was never a real big backer of the

664
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:23,239
extra terrestrial hypothesis, but he was
fascinated by the metaterrestrial hypothesis. Wow.

665
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:29,920
Well, another question that came up, and I think I know a little

666
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,840
bit of this anyway. Do you
know if Jallen Heineck had any collaboration with

667
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,960
Ray Stamford over the SoCoRo case.
I know that he was there, and

668
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:43,079
but I don't know much more about
it than you know. He did show

669
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:45,519
up, and he was there,
and Ray met him there and all that.

670
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,960
Yeah, I did. I did
have a talk with Ray at one

671
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,199
point, and Ray was kind of
a just send me his book. Oh

672
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,519
yeah, Um, the Socorro Saucer
and the Pentagon Pantry, I think that's

673
00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:04,400
the title, um, And yeah, it's he was. He was absolutely

674
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:09,719
on site. He was one of
the first people on site Tokoro and um.

675
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:15,079
And he was either kine or very
close, very nearby Heineck when Heineck

676
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:21,360
was was there investigating the event.
Um. The impression I get from Heineck's

677
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:27,880
take, and there's quite a bit
of documentation on the Sacaro case. Um,

678
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,599
But the impression I get just from
from the the Blue Pronject Bluebek file

679
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:37,320
and for material that I found in
Heine's archives was um that he played.

680
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,400
He was playing his cards pretty close
to his vest I think he sensed immediately

681
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:47,199
even before he arrived in New Mexico. I think Heineck was already thinking that

682
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:52,760
this case could be UM. It
was a physical trace case. It was

683
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,079
a case that involved a craft that
apparently left behind landing pad imprints and had

684
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:01,760
burned some some shrubs in the ground. Sound. Those were Heineck's favorite cases.

685
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:07,800
So I think I think, UM
that Heineck kept a lot of what

686
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:13,400
he was thinking and seeing from mister
Stanford. UM, that's the impression I

687
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,000
get. I don't really have any
ironclad, you know, documentation for that,

688
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:22,239
um but myself. And it wasn't
just mister Stanford. My impression isn't

689
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:28,079
Heineck kept a lot of what he
was thinking about Sikoro to himself until he

690
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,960
could really figure it out. Because
it really was, you know, it

691
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:36,639
was kind of a bombshell case.
Uh it was. The witness was amazingly

692
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,519
reliable, incredible as a traffic cop
who you know, didn't smoke, didn't

693
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:46,280
drink, you know, a very
very credible witness, A close encounter the

694
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:52,440
third kind UM, the object was
cited very close up there were occupants involved,

695
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:58,039
it was it was a huge case. So yeah, I think heine

696
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,599
um, I think Heinik just kind
of I said close to his vest during

697
00:55:01,639 --> 00:55:07,199
that case because there was a lot
going on and I think he wanted to

698
00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:15,639
be very very full of that.
Um how oh he shared in for me.

699
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:22,360
Yeah, Um, are you able
to hear me? Okay? Yes,

700
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:24,760
So yeah, we're having a bit
of Um are you have can you

701
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,159
tell on your side? Um?
I don't want to take up too much

702
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:30,320
time in this, but are you
having some internet issues on your side that

703
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:37,119
you're aware of? No, everything
looks good on my end, all right,

704
00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:42,880
so I have I have had internet
troubles over the past few days though,

705
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,760
so so there may be a problem. Okay, I may have to

706
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,840
have everything looks great great, all
right, because you you are fading in

707
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,599
out, in and out quite a
bit and and I may have to switch

708
00:55:53,639 --> 00:55:58,960
to a calling you on the phone
if it keeps up. And uh.

709
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,800
In that case, I would like
for you to type and skype message.

710
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,039
Just type me your phone number,
no, give your buzz back, so

711
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:12,760
I'll let you know as we go
along here, sir. And so the

712
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,440
case that someone asked this real early
on in the chat the case that changed

713
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,679
doctor Heineck's mind from being um someone
that was to debunk um UFOs to someone

714
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,719
that hey, there's really something to
this. How did all that happen?

715
00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:36,880
Ah, it didn't happen all at
once. I think that's that's a common

716
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:43,000
misconception that people have, is that
there was some kind of Eureka moment when

717
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:50,639
when Heineck just suddenly saw the world
differently and he completely changed his mind UFOs.

718
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,280
It was really a gradual zube and
it began surprisingly as early as nineteen

719
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,960
fifty two, back when this was
all still very very new. You got

720
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,800
better remember the Kenneth Arnold sighting had
taken place in the summer of nineteen forty

721
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:09,800
seven, So nineteen fifty two,
five years into this, Heineck is starting

722
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,480
to sort of waver. As I
mentioned earlier, when he first started out

723
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,519
with this, he thought it was
a fad. He thought it would die

724
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:21,679
out very quickly. He kind of
made fun of it and made fun of

725
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:29,719
the people who had spotted the UFOs. But after five years, the Air

726
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:31,880
Force calls him back and says,
hey, we still Heineck had left their

727
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,440
employee for a couple of years,
so he comes back in nineteen fifty two

728
00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:39,840
and he realizes, hey, not
only has this fad not burned itself out,

729
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:50,039
but there's a remarkable consistent to go
back. If he went back over

730
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:53,559
the previous five years of UFO reports
that the Air Force had amassed, there

731
00:57:53,639 --> 00:58:00,599
was a very clear twenty percent residue
of cases that nobody could explain. Heineck

732
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:04,719
couldn't explain them, the Air Force
couldn't explain them. They just sort of

733
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,880
hung there, define in explanation and
puzzle them. And so when Heineck saw

734
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:16,559
that consistent pattern of twenty percent year
after year, that's when he started to,

735
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:22,039
Okay, maybe there's something that I
need to be paying attention to here,

736
00:58:22,639 --> 00:58:25,119
Maybe I should start looking at things
differently. So that was the star

737
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:31,719
part of the process. It honestly
did. That process was really complete until

738
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:40,039
fourteen six in Michigan at the famous
fabulous swamp gas case the Dexter Hillsdale in

739
00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:45,360
southern Michigan. So it was it
was really a fourteen year process from Heineck

740
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:50,639
first starting to sort of have some
doubts about what he was doing, until

741
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,400
he, you know, finally reached
a point where he decided Okay, I'm

742
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,480
gonna fool around anymore. I'm not
gonna I'm not going to carry water for

743
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,360
the Air Force anymore. I'm going
to start approaching this as a scientific problem.

744
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:07,599
Wow. Interesting. Do you know
if he ever had a chance to

745
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:13,039
meet Betty and Barney Hill? Yes, he did, Yeah, yeah he

746
00:59:13,239 --> 00:59:16,440
um yeah. In fact, that
that was that was such a busy time

747
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:23,280
because um So, Barney and Betty
Hills UFO abduction took place in nineteen sixty

748
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:30,599
one. But by the time that
by the time the Hills had gone through

749
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:37,960
all the physical maladies, all their
psychological issues resulting from that sighting which they

750
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:43,840
could not remember. Um by the
time they ended up going under time regression

751
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,480
hypnosis to remember what had happened to
them in the two missing hours of their

752
00:59:46,639 --> 00:59:54,159
their honeymoon trip. We're getting into
nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five. This

753
00:59:54,199 --> 00:59:57,960
is right around the time of the
Cicaro case that we were just discussing the

754
00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:04,239
Secara, New Mexico case. Um
So, uf there are there are some

755
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:12,159
really high profile, really remarkable,
unexplainable UFO cases going on that have really

756
01:00:12,239 --> 01:00:16,599
captivated the American public in the mid
in the mid nineteen sixties. So um

757
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:22,079
Heineck ends up meeting Barney and Betty
Hill in that later time frame I can't

758
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:28,519
remember exactly sixty four sixty five,
at the behest of John Fuller, who

759
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,199
had just written, you know,
two of the hands down the UFO books

760
01:00:32,199 --> 01:00:37,880
ever incident at Exeter and the Interrupted
Journey. Now Interrupted Journey was all about

761
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:44,559
Barney and Betty's abduction. So um
Fuller invites doctor Heineck to have dinner with

762
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:50,039
him and doctor sim But doctor Benjamin
Simon, who had performed the timer aggression

763
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:53,159
hypnosis, and Barney and Betty Hiller
there too, So Heineck's at this amazing

764
01:00:53,800 --> 01:01:00,039
dinner party with John Fuller, Benjamin
Simon, Barney Hill, Betty Hill and

765
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:07,400
the Hills agree to go under hypnosis
while doctor Henig is there. That's it

766
01:01:07,519 --> 01:01:09,159
for the free part of the show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll

767
01:01:09,159 --> 01:01:17,679
be back next week with a Venezuelan
UFO researcher and his name is Thiago Louise

768
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:24,800
Tikti, and so check back next
week and remember you can support the show

769
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:30,159
for two dollars or more per month
that informations on podcast UFO. Thanks so

770
01:01:30,239 --> 01:02:01,679
much, and we'll be back next
week, keep your eyes to the sky