WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:08.359 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Be Frank. 2 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:16.199 We're the only way to be is Frank Low and welcome to being Frank. 3 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:19.960 We're the only way to be is of course, Frank. I'm your host, 4 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.800 Frank Leabono. We'd like to thank you for joining us here on the 5 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:28.519 Intelligent Conversation podcast. We know that your time is valuable. Competition is fierce. 6 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:32.280 It seems everyone has a podcast these days, but we'd like to think 7 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:36.799 of ourselves as an alternative to all that noise, so we really appreciate you 8 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:41.880 taking some of your time to be with Being Frank. 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I consider the 27 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.760 First Amendment sacred and in my mind, the foundation for and thereby the most 28 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:13.479 important of all our constitutional amendments. For without our ability to freely speak our 29 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.800 minds, the very concept of liberty collapses. But there are those who seek 30 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:23.439 to pervert this cherished tenant. They would use it as a shield for their 31 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:28.919 lies and deceit, peeling away all the layers. This is the heart of 32 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.520 the case against former President Donald J. Trump. Mister Trump and his lawyers 33 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:37.479 claim that he has a right to his opinion that the twenty twenty election was 34 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:43.639 stolen from him, and despite the amount of evidence disproving those claims, as 35 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:50.319 protected free speech, he cannot be prevented from believing what he believes thereby expressing 36 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.800 it. Is this a valid defense. It will be one of our intelligent 37 00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:00.120 conversations tonight. We'll also discuss the recent GOP debate, the candidates, the 38 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.719 winners and the losers, and the role the media plays with it all, 39 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.759 and to do so as a frequent contributor, my colleague at Fordham and an 40 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:13.000 expert media and the First Amendment, doctor Paul Levinson. Paul, thank you 41 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:15.439 once again for joining us here and we can always count on you well. 42 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:21.960 I'm always delighted to talk to your Frank again. We appreciated, Paul. 43 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:29.159 Your opinion counts and I think we need to hear I think we need to 44 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:31.520 hear it tonight. First, and this is not the first time we've discussed 45 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:36.479 the First Amendment, lots of ones there, but it is that important and 46 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.639 it keeps coming up in various ways, but I think people, once again, 47 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.840 I don't know if they totally grasp the concept. And one of the 48 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:50.080 things that's frequently used is to simplify what the First Amendment comes down to is 49 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:55.240 that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater if there's no fire. But 50 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.599 that's a fairly broad statement. Can you can you boil it down even further 51 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:05.080 what exactly does that mean in practical terms? And then again as that applies 52 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:10.879 to our general conversation of free speech, the use of it by former President 53 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:14.120 Trump and his lawyers to say, look, well, we have a right 54 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:18.639 to our opinion, etc. But put it all together against starting with you 55 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:23.720 can't yell fire in a crowded theater if there's no fire, break that down 56 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:29.720 a little further for us. Well, the reason why that was stated by 57 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:34.600 Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior, way way back over a hundred years ago, 58 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:43.920 and the Shank versus the United States case was if you shout fire and there 59 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.240 is no fire in a crowded theater and then people run out of the theater, 60 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:53.680 they could wind up hurting themselves or at the very least they would be 61 00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:00.199 deprived of the movie that they had paid money to see, so they would 62 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:06.920 be robbed of their experience by that false statement. Now I never thought, 63 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:14.720 as you know, that that was the best example anyway of what the First 64 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:20.639 Amendment does not protect, because as far as people stampeding and trampling themselves, 65 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:27.199 I think it would be a much better idea than worrying about whether the First 66 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:34.120 Amendment applies or not to just build theaters that have exits that people can run 67 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:39.519 out of in a safe way. If God forbid there is a fire, 68 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.959 and that you know, then I think you don't even have to talk about 69 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:47.879 if you have some malicious person saying there's a fire there when it isn't. 70 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:57.160 But there have been from the very beginning many things that the First Amendment does 71 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:04.920 not protect. The most common is protection if you say or write something that 72 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:12.920 defames someone else, and if you know what you're saying or writing is false, 73 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:17.920 and you know it's going to do them damage, and you publish it 74 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:25.800 or speak it or disseminated anyway, then you could be hauled into a civil 75 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.600 court. You're not going to wind up in jail, but you could be 76 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.759 fined millions of dollars, which is what happens when you are found guilty in 77 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:39.519 a civil suit. That was always the case. I'm totally in favor that 78 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:46.519 I think people should be punished if they lie in public with the intent of 79 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:53.800 defaming someone, hurting their career, damaging their reputation. But there's also far 80 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.879 more serious thing that you can't do even though there is a First Amendment, 81 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:10.120 and that's communication that is intended to lead to commission of a crime. Now 82 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:15.199 you can make a general statement saying, you know what, I think banks 83 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:20.879 are very detrimental to our society, and uh, you know, I would 84 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:27.160 be happy if everyone just ran into a bank and you know, demanded to 85 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:31.240 get back all their money and even stole the money if necessary. Someone could 86 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:34.959 make, you know, as insane as that statement is, that's the person's 87 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:44.000 opinion that is protected under the First Amendment. But if someone was either writing 88 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:51.079 or talking about a plan to go into a specific bank, and here's how 89 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.879 you're going to do it, and you should show up at you know, 90 00:07:55.079 --> 00:08:01.079 nine am, you know, two weeks from now on a Thursday Friday morning, 91 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.199 and what I'm going to do is distribute to you plans so you can 92 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:13.000 see what the bank looks like on the inside where the vaults are, and 93 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.160 before we go there, we'll get the weapons, which we'll use if anybody 94 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.480 gets in our way, et cetera, et cetera. And obviously we've all 95 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:28.720 seen this in many many movies and television shows. Hopefully no one listening to 96 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:33.559 this has actually been planning something like that, because if they were, that 97 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.840 would be a crime. That communication would not be protected by the First Amendment, 98 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:46.360 because it's communication that's intended to commit a crime robbing a bank. How 99 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.879 does this relate to Trump, Well, as we've been talking about since that 100 00:08:50.039 --> 00:09:00.399 dark day, you know, back in January twenty one, Trump not only 101 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.480 lied, and there's a lot of evidence that he knew that he lost. 102 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.159 So he not only lied and continues to lie about the results of the twenty 103 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:16.600 twenty election, but he actually worked to get the results of that election disgarded 104 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:20.960 so that he Donald Trump, who did not win the election, would be 105 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.639 recognized as the winner of an election. That's a crime. He was trying 106 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:33.879 to subvert the election laws in our country, and that's a crime even without 107 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:39.600 the insurrection at the Capitol on January six, twenty twenty one, So that 108 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:46.240 sadly for our democracy, is a stark example of what the First Amendment does 109 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:52.720 not protect. And I'll just conclude this by saying I often have said in 110 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:58.399 the past, you know casually that I'm pretty much an absolutist when it comes 111 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.679 to the First Amendment, by which I mean to say people should be entitled 112 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:09.679 to say the most hateful things they want. But ever since Trump, I've 113 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:16.799 stopped saying I'm an absolutist because he has violated the First Amendment in so many 114 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.279 different ways, in ways that you know the First Amendment does not protect, 115 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.679 and he's made a mockery of the First Amendment that now I would never say 116 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.639 I'm an absolutist regarding the First Amendment. I'm a very strong, like you, 117 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:37.240 fervent believer and supporter in the First Amendment. But I'm equally strong about 118 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:43.720 wanting to bring people who use the First Amendment as a cover to commit criminal 119 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:50.240 activities and use the First Amendment as a cover to subvert our democracy. I'm 120 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:56.840 a very strong believer also in those people being brought to justice. Well, 121 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:00.720 let me play the devil's advocate because I like to. It's part of what 122 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:09.639 intelligent conversation is about what he's certainly in his lawyers and supporters believe at least 123 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.480 as a gray area. Okay, And you hear it, and I think 124 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.559 we've discussed it before, and you hear it in many of the interviews with 125 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:22.919 people, particularly the people who support former President Trump. Well, in my 126 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.720 opinion, okay, I feel I thought, and we know, the burden 127 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:33.519 of proof in a particular case like this is with the state and with the 128 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:39.159 government. They have to prove that there was intent, and Trump continually goes 129 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.720 back. And this is also when I want your opinion on political speech, 130 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.879 especially during political times. It's almost as if they're given a free license to 131 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:56.320 lie, certainly at least to exaggerate. That's part of the political jargon whatever. 132 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:00.080 And it's up to us to wade through and say who's lying who's not, 133 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.759 because let's face it, it seems at some point most politicians certainly at 134 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.919 least exaggerate their accomplishments, and most people would say, well, they should. 135 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:15.000 That's the idea of politics, that's the idea of campaigning. So here, 136 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.360 now again you have the gray area where Trump is saying, you don't 137 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:26.200 understand I believe that I was given evidence by others to make me believe that, 138 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.919 and how can you tell me to believe what I can believe and what 139 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.159 I can't believe? Those are your facts, they're not necessarily my facts. 140 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.639 So here they set up this gray area of him saying, well, his 141 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:45.039 intent was he felt he was doing the right thing, that he was robbed 142 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:50.279 from the election, and he quote unquote legitimately believes that. We may think 143 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.480 otherwise, but again, within the burden of proof, can we prove that 144 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:01.159 he was intentionally misleading and therefore of violating the First Amendment? What do you 145 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.120 think of that gray area, Paul, I don't really think it's that great. 146 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.039 I still think this is a black and white situation, because, first 147 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.039 of all, it doesn't matter what Trump believed or didn't believe. He's entitled 148 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.360 to believe that the Earth is flat. He's entitled to believe that he won 149 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:26.840 the election. That's not why he's currently in Atlanta and he's going to go 150 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:33.360 in and be arraigned, and he's already been indicted. Of all the cases 151 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:39.320 against Trump, this is the most clear cut case. He's not being indicted 152 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:46.600 because he believed that he won the election. He's being indicted and being arraigned 153 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:54.120 and arrested, and he'll be brought to trial for the grave offense in which, 154 00:13:54.320 --> 00:14:01.320 fortunately we have a tape recording of the telephone kind of station in which 155 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.600 Trump is telling the people in Georgia who are responsible for tallying and certifying the 156 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.840 votes in an election that look, you know, you got to find me 157 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:18.799 x number of votes because that's what I need to win the election. And 158 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.360 it doesn't matter that he was entitled to believe that he won the election. 159 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:31.480 What matters is he is pressuring a state official to commit a crime digging up 160 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.879 votes, printing up votes. I don't know how he expected them to find 161 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.080 the votes, but however it was, it doesn't matter. That's where the 162 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:48.279 criminal activity happened. And that's why that case is even more clear cut than 163 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:54.799 the federal case against Trump for inciting the right because in the capital and the 164 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.360 attack on the Capitol, I think Trump is guilty of that too, but 165 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.080 I think that it's a little harder to prove, because you know, he 166 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.840 could there maybe he was just giving his opinion, you know, wouldn't it 167 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:13.080 be nice, But here in trying to fix the election, and the worst 168 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.799 possible meaning of the word fix, not fix something that's broken, but fix 169 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.279 something I do something in an illegal way, and we have him on tape 170 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:31.039 urging that that I think is a clear cut, not gray area which Trump 171 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:37.200 clearly broke the law. He deserves to be indicted. He deserves to be 172 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.200 brought up on trial. He deserves to be found guilty and spend some time 173 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:46.720 in prison. Well, it's a little bit about fraud, fraud in the 174 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.559 media, and what comes to mind, because I think it's it's all kind 175 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:54.879 of related, and they're all seemed to be, at least in my mind. 176 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.159 Snake oil salesman, if you will, in flashing around his one on 177 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.399 on Sunday mornings, or any number of evangelical creatures of any assorted faith, 178 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:11.080 et cetera, selling things, and one of them sells holy water that for 179 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.000 fifty dollars they'll get special water that they can either drink or sprinkle or whatever, 180 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:21.000 and it'll bring them great wealth. And you could see it every week. 181 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.399 For most rational people. You raise an eyebrow at least and say, 182 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:32.159 you're not serious, are you? Yet? He's made millions millions by people 183 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:38.639 who will buy that product. To me, seems to be obviously false advertising. 184 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:47.080 Ie fraud. Where where does that land within free speech? Defrauding the 185 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.320 public? Is there something that could be done about that? In other words, 186 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:56.879 it seems like again within the realm of free speech and belief. Well, 187 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.759 he believes that that it can and he convinced there's others to believe that 188 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:06.000 it can work. So can it be stopped? Should it be stopped? 189 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.759 Well, I'm gladu raised that point because that is another area in which the 190 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:21.519 First Amendment does not permit an organization from, say, selling a product and 191 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:27.680 falsely claiming that the product does such and such when it doesn't. So if, 192 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:36.440 for example, somebody is out shopping for a new car and they're told 193 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:41.680 that this new Chevy you know, can go it has like you know, 194 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:47.319 it's a gasoline car. You know, it's not a hybrid or electric vehicle, 195 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:52.559 and uh, you know, it can go x number of miles on 196 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:56.400 a gallon. And it turns out that the number of miles is maybe half 197 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:03.640 that amount. The f he see, the Federal Trade Commission would crack down 198 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:08.880 on that automobile company or it might be a dealership or whatever and say no, 199 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.240 you're not allowed to do this. We're going to find you. You 200 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:18.720 can't falsely advertise something that's going to defraud the public. So that's a very 201 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:26.279 clear cut example. The problem though, in applying that to politics is yeah, 202 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.240 it's not as clear as well. The most you're going to get out 203 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:34.680 of a car, you know, is maybe thirty or thirty five miles per 204 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:40.079 gallon. And if you're advertising that this, you know, all gas engine 205 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.160 is going to give you seventy miles per gallon. That's just a clear, 206 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:51.039 mathematical lie. The problem is we don't have such clear cut boundaries and politics, 207 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:56.880 and so I think the First Amendment, I mean, ethnically, it's 208 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.079 always wrong to lie and exaggerate, but I think we have to accept the 209 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.799 fact that I know we're going to be talking about this, you know, 210 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.599 in a few minutes last night's debate. Uh, it's it's it's okay for 211 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:14.160 this vivid character to every word out of his mouth was a lie. But 212 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:21.640 that's and we will indeed, and and and it's funny because I saw the 213 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.400 new ads are out and Biden has his and how he's improved the country, 214 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.079 and of course Trump now has come out with his first I actually saw it 215 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.079 today or yesterday A couple of times and within it again raising an eyebrow. 216 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:40.759 Border security. Yes, I built the wall well like thirty two miles of 217 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:47.039 it, so it's not entirely falls but it's certainly an exaggeration. And from 218 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.279 again, you are a much more the expert than I am. But it 219 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:56.079 seems like political speech, especially at this time here is is even more so 220 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.799 protected by the First Amendment. They were allowed to certainly at least exaggerate, 221 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:04.519 if not completely lie. And they all do, as I said, in 222 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:10.920 fairness to a degree. But obviously why we're here with former President Trump is 223 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.880 because he does it to the nth degree. He seems to be the best 224 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.400 at it. And again the latest commercial that was just one example, and 225 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.119 he put out some other things that were, you know, just blatantly false, 226 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.359 but it doesn't seem to be able to be stopped. Yeah, but 227 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.759 I do think we have to be careful in politics. And I'll give you 228 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:37.359 an example. I guess it was in the two thousand and twelve election when 229 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:44.640 Romney had not yet gotten the GOP nomination, but he was beginning to campaign 230 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:55.079 for the GOP nomination, and he was asked a question about the citizens United 231 00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:07.720 Supreme Court decision. Would said that the government cannot prohibit cooperations from donating money 232 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:11.680 to campaigns, and Romney was asked what he thought about that, and Romney 233 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.480 sort of left and said, well, what do you mean? Corporations are 234 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.759 people, you know, so if people can you know, give money, 235 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:25.720 why I can't corporations? And you know, all all of my progressive friends 236 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.359 went crazy. What a stupid thing to do is to say he shouldn't be 237 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.000 allowed to say that. But actually I think he was making a good point. 238 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:40.519 I mean, the First Amendment does forbid the government from interfering with any 239 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:48.920 kind of lawful communication, and it doesn't say that you have to be just 240 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:53.240 an individual person to contribute to a campaign. So why shouldn't a corporation, 241 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.759 which after all, is made up of people, why shouldn't they be able 242 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.799 to contribute. Now a lot of people I know disagree with me. They 243 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:06.640 think that I'm some kind of horrible conservative to say that, But I still 244 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:12.160 wouldn't ever say that. I'm glad. But the point is that example is 245 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:18.960 why I think we have to be very careful about about saying a politician can't 246 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:26.160 lie or even exaggerate, because often politicians are trying to make points and often 247 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:33.440 unfortunately, what we think is a lie, it turns out not to be 248 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.759 a lie, just a different interpretation. Now, now let me say, 249 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.799 look, our history, our political American history is filled with lives. One 250 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.079 of the thing that one of the things that Daniel Ellsberg, who who sadly 251 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.480 passed away but at a ripe old age, you know, just recently a 252 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:56.119 couple of months ago, pointed out, you know, back in the Pentagon 253 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.480 papers, is that Lyndon Johnson lie right to the American people and said, 254 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.240 the North Vietnamese attacked our you know, destroyers ship. It became the Gulf 255 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:14.640 of Punkin resolutions that's really triggered the Vietnam warwere and tens of thousands of Americans 256 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:19.119 and hundreds of thousand, millions of Vietnamese were killed. That's fine, that's 257 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:23.640 right. So you know that's an ipso facto'll lie lying about a fact, 258 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:30.279 and you know there are exceptions to everything, and that would be something that 259 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.880 for a government to lie like that, And and I think that that's why 260 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:41.920 Elsberg wanted to get the Pentagon papers out there. Lyndon Johnson passed away pretty 261 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:47.000 much at the same time, so as the Pentagon Papers came out, so 262 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:49.480 there was no way he could be brought to justice. But but you know, 263 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:59.960 the politics, unfortunately, is always close to lying and exaggerating, because 264 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:06.680 politicians are not interested in telling the truth as clearly as possible. They're interested 265 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:12.839 in convincing people that they're doing the good and right thing. And therefore politics 266 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:18.799 is a haven for propaganda, which means it's rife with distortion and exaggeration. 267 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:22.160 Perfectly, and we'll take a break pull, but it's a perfect lead into 268 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:27.039 our next part of our discussion, which is the role the media plays in 269 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.160 it in all of this, and how these political candidates use the media. 270 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.160 Quite frankly, we can talk a little bit about the debate, the winners, 271 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.519 the losers, the making of the president if we remember that very seminal 272 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:48.480 book about image and how important literally the physical image of the president was and 273 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.599 how modern candidates have taken that and they use the media and shape their own 274 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.079 image within it. I think is an important and a good discussion to have 275 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.599 when but we'll take a break first and we'll be right back. I'm your 276 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.359 host, Frank lebov Le Bono'd be great if I could say my own name 277 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:08.680 properly. Will go from there, you're watching Being Frank. We're the Only 278 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:15.720 way to be Is Frank. My guest tonight is Fordham University Professor expert in 279 00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:19.759 media matters. In the First Amendment, Doctor Paul Levinson moved back with so 280 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:26.440 much more. Right after these brief commercial messages don't go anywhere yet, Hudson 281 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.480 River Radio dot com. Bring a dash of green into your life. Check 282 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.960 out the Many Shades of Green with Maxine Margat, Reuben and Malcolm Burman. 283 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:40.559 Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect us all. Pick a 284 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:45.119 shade of green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many Shades of Green available 285 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:52.279 on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You 286 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.880 ought to be in movies, well, at least you should watch movies. 287 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:03.640 The silver Screen Podcast talks about all aspects of film and entertainment, current films, 288 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.480 old films, how movies are made, and interviews with moviemakers, authors 289 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:14.279 and musicians too. Check out The Silver Screen Podcast at Hudson River Radio dot 290 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:25.160 com or wherever you get your podcasts, and go watch a movie Hudson River 291 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:29.640 Radio dot com. We're back with Being Frank. We're the Only way to 292 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.039 be is Frank. We're having another intelligent conversation, of course, with my 293 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.799 guest, my colleague at Fordham University and expert in media in the First Amendment, 294 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.839 doctor Paul Levinson. We'll continue our discussion about the First Amendment, politics, 295 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:47.480 the debates and everything. Remember Neil Richter as our engineer, and he 296 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:52.119 reminded to me to tell everybody I'm fumbling all over myself because in jet lag, 297 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:53.640 who's gone for a couple of weeks. I'll brag a little bit. 298 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:59.559 I was visiting in Sicily, so we just got back. It's great to 299 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:03.000 be back and saddle again. As they say, it'll take me probably this 300 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:08.119 whole show to pronounced my own name right. But if you'll bear with me, 301 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:12.119 we've got some great conversation. Remember we here every week, unless I'm 302 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.240 away for a week or two. We try to get you a fresh topic 303 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:21.319 every week. It's streams on all major podcasting platforms. It's archives, so 304 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:26.680 there's no excuse to not check out. Being Frank. Okay, I want 305 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.920 to talk a little bit about image in the media and how important it has 306 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.400 become. That really became crystallized in the early days of television with the Kennedy 307 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.319 Nixon debates, and I think we've discussed it in the past where it's very 308 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:48.240 interesting. The radio audience, people who could not see the debate actually Nixon 309 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:55.319 as the winner, but those who watched the first debates on television clearly went 310 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:59.880 for Kennedy because he looked better. Nixon looked sinister, and again we discussed 311 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:04.799 it hadn't shaved, he was dark, and his appearance became, as I 312 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:08.839 said, more sinister, and he lost votes that way. So obviously it 313 00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:15.079 became, especially with a visual medium like television, that it's important to not 314 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:19.599 only sound good, but to look good and have an important presentation. And 315 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:25.200 now with the multiple platforms that we have, everybody used to have to go 316 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:29.960 through broadcast television. Now you have your own you can do your own TikTok 317 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.680 videos, you could do YouTube videos, you can have your own channel, 318 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:38.680 you can become an influencer, et cetera. So the idea of image has 319 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:44.119 become even more important. Paul, is that a good thing or is that 320 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.559 a bad thing? Well, it remains to be seen. It's certainly a 321 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:53.519 different thing, as you're saying, and at this point, it certainly is 322 00:28:53.559 --> 00:29:00.400 something that looks like it's not particularly good for democ set and you know, 323 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:07.480 to go back in history, democracy in the United States begins in a world, 324 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.799 in a society when the only medium is print newspapers and books. And 325 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:17.559 by the time we get to the nineteen thirties, we have this brand new, 326 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:23.279 incredible, magical medium radio And one of the reasons why FDR was elected 327 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:29.279 president four times as he was a master of radio. And as you said, 328 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:34.920 the television makes its entrance and the Kennedy Nixon debates in nineteen sixty. 329 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.680 But I have to say, looking at that debate last night, and you 330 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:48.039 know, watching Fox, which pains me in any case anytime, but the 331 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:57.640 that debate last night was a said, said, example of how far the 332 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:07.039 television debate has fallen since the Kennedy Nixon debates, since even the you know, 333 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:12.559 the the Reagan Mondale debates, even as I mentioned a little earlier, 334 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:18.680 the two thousand and twelve election, Romney versus Obama. And by the way, 335 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.759 in that debate, Obama actually didn't even do that well in the first 336 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.559 presidential debate. Now, of course, the debate last night was not a 337 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:33.119 Republican versus Democrat. It was an all Republican debate. But I think it 338 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.480 was a sad spectacle. And I just want to mention here I read shortly 339 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:42.759 before we saw this podcast a very good article by the name of someone I 340 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:49.559 haven't read his work before, John Asconis ask O n a s John J. 341 00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:56.160 O n in Compact, which is an online magazine. And the gist 342 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:03.480 of the article is that if you think about the fact that, at least 343 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:11.440 according to Twitter or x that is Elon Musk's system, the the Tucker Carlson 344 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:18.920 interview with Trump got many, many more viewers than we're watching the debate on 345 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:26.279 Fox, that that last night's debate was just, you know, a pathetic 346 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:34.319 example of the decline of the debate and as a format that's helpful to democracy. 347 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:40.599 Now, this didn't begin. This decline didn't begin last night. It 348 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:47.359 began in the two thousand and sixteen election in the Republican debates then. But 349 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:52.400 who can forget the debates, you know, and both the actual debate that 350 00:31:52.680 --> 00:32:01.480 the Trump and Hillary Clinton had and before that the Republican primary debates in which 351 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:08.599 you know, Megan Kelly basically puts the truth to Trump. You know, 352 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.880 you say that women are pigs, you say this and that, and Trump 353 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.759 interrupts and says, no, you know, I only I'm not even going 354 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.319 to mention a name because I don't want to insult her. He insults a 355 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:30.160 woman and and and gets away with that. And one would have thought that 356 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:38.640 anyone who had answered a question like that would have dropped precipitously in the polls. 357 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:45.400 But in twenty sixteen we got the first taste of somebody who in a 358 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:52.799 debate lies, says outrageous things, insults people, and what happens he moves 359 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:59.680 up in terms of voters who are supporting him, and he eventually gets the 360 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:04.119 nomination, and he eventually he did lose the popular vote, but eventually won 361 00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:07.359 enough electoral votes, you know, twenty elections. So I think that last 362 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:15.359 night's the debate is just a further example of the deterioration of the television debate 363 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:28.279 as a worthwhile vehicle for our democracy. Well you had mentioned and by most 364 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:36.480 accounts of pundits and polls afterwards, Vivic Ramaswami, the thirty six year old 365 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:44.240 to a billionaire businessman, won the debate by basically uttering, I wouldn't even 366 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:52.119 call them falsehood's lie after lie denying, climate denying, showing real naivete when 367 00:33:52.160 --> 00:34:01.319 it came to international affairs, obviously had some missenogenistic tendency, etc. And 368 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:07.440 yet by presentation it seemed like it's just throwing raw meat to the base. 369 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:14.400 Wound up once again with if you will style over substance, although the substance 370 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:19.079 he was throwing was obviously believed by many. So once again we have this 371 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:25.800 situation where the person talking the loudest, talking over everyone, really kind of 372 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.079 won the debate and again being allowed and not really being challenged. He was 373 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:35.760 by some of the other candidates, but certainly not the viewers seemed to really 374 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:42.280 accept what he had to say just as he said it. Yet most people 375 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.320 of any kind of education or knowledge know it not to be true, but 376 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:52.280 it didn't seem to matter. How did we get there because unfortunately, one 377 00:34:52.599 --> 00:35:00.800 of the impacts, one of the babyful results of social media, has been 378 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:09.280 the displacement of truth as the goal of communication. And we've talked about this 379 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:15.639 before as well. The most important thing in social media is no longer is 380 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:22.119 the communication true? What it's been now for years, not for four years, 381 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:31.599 even longer than that, is is it shared, reposted, liked, 382 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:38.880 And that's what people in social media strive for and it doesn't matter if what 383 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:46.679 they're saying is true or not. And this again is a very sharp departure 384 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:53.760 from broadcast media, from cable media, and from print media, where truth 385 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:58.280 was the goal. They didn't always get it right. I mean, you 386 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:02.400 know, Fox from the outset, you know, basically had information that were 387 00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:08.880 just lies and not true, but they had some truth mixed into it. 388 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:17.639 Social media and I am totally in favor of social media existing. I'm not 389 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:22.880 for a moment you and I use it, and also that's right, that's 390 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.920 right. So yes, and I think it is a tool to be used. 391 00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.760 But I think I'm glad to say I know it's true for you, 392 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.559 and I hope people would say the same thing about me. We use it 393 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.960 with integrity. I mean, you know what I said from the beginning, 394 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.320 Well, people have approached me and they said, you know, we really 395 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:44.320 like your show. It's good information and it's good exchange. But you could 396 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:49.679 probably get more listeners if you're a little bit more controversial controversial, And I 397 00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.800 said, I don't do controversy just for the sake of controversy, and just 398 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:58.239 for the sake of ratings. That's not that important to me, truth is 399 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.719 more important open conversation. Even if people tend to not to agree with me, 400 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:06.920 that's okay certainly if they could present their case with logic and respect. 401 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.679 But you know, that seems to be the minority. And we've mentioned before 402 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:15.719 we came on a vivec. It seems to be like Ann Coulter and and 403 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:21.960 Tucker Carlson who basically say anything to make them famous, and therefore like even 404 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:29.199 the Kardashians famous simply for being famous. Uh you know, and I don't 405 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:34.239 know we have how we combat that. Uh you know, it's interesting, 406 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.760 and I could wind all I want about it and say, well, you 407 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:39.559 know, forty I get forty listeners. I'd like to get four hundred thousand, 408 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:43.800 and you see the people that get the four hundred thousand. But yet 409 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:47.679 I just my my integrity, my conscience won't just won't let me go there, 410 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.519 Paul. But for others that's that's the way of as you mentioned, 411 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.440 it's it's getting likes clicks, and that's more important, and how you get 412 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:04.960 them, uh seem to be the most important thing is maybe the least important 413 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.559 thing. I should say, I should rephrase it's it's not important to them 414 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.679 how they get them, as long as they get them. Your thoughts, 415 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.119 well, I know less, I'll say, and you. I hate to 416 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.159 do this every time this is brought up, but this is not the first 417 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:29.159 time in history that lies and dangerous lies have played a major role in politics. 418 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:36.039 And the arch example of that is what happened in Germany in the Weimar 419 00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:42.599 Republic in the nineteen thirties and Hitler and Joseph Garbbels, who had a PhD 420 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.880 in communication from the University of Heidelberg. He earned it nineteen twenty two. 421 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:52.280 He was no dummy, and he was advising Hitler. And one of the 422 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.440 things he said to Hitler, if you're gonna lie, make the lie as 423 00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:00.360 big and outrageous as possible, because what that will do is just to track 424 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:06.559 more people. It's more exciting. Don't waste your time with slight wise and 425 00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:13.119 that's indeed what Hitler did with tragic tragic consequences. Now, I'm not saying 426 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:19.679 that that Vivic Ramswami is Hitlarian, but I am saying that the reason why 427 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.559 he was so effective last night is he just went for broke. He lied 428 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:28.679 about everything. You know, he lied about the climate crisis. I mean, 429 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:30.840 we could just make a list. I don't think anything that he said 430 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.800 was truth. And you know this is in contrast to you know, someone 431 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.239 like Nicky Haley, who I don't agree with her on many things at all, 432 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.280 but just use one example, and I know you feel strongly as I 433 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:51.920 do about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and unlike Vivic Ramswami, who you 434 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.960 know thinks no, we shouldn't give them any money and we shouldn't support them. 435 00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.639 I thought it was great when Nikki Haley took him to task and said, 436 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:07.280 look, you know, the Ukraine's at democracy. You know, Putin 437 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.639 is a Nazi, and we need as the world's strongest democracy, the United 438 00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:19.000 States to continue supporting Ukraine. So we did have some people saying that. 439 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.679 Unfortunately, though Nikki Hailey's position, although you and I agree with it, 440 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:29.840 is not the red meat that thank goodness, it's not a majority of the 441 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:34.719 population. But let's say thirty thirty five percent, thirty eight percent the Magar 442 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:42.559 Republicans, that's what they believe, and they applaud and say he had won 443 00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:46.960 the audience. It's obvious for those that were their live virtually hanging on every 444 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:53.320 word and applauding things that many of them and literally thankfully most Americans still would 445 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:58.639 find important. Yet there was a significant amount of people you could you could 446 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.039 you could feel it in the room, and he used it to gain more 447 00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:07.639 strength, and he had certainly what we might call media savvy. He used 448 00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:14.760 his moment and he captured his moment and that and that's obviously important even if 449 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:17.880 I think, and Paul get your final thoughts on that, even if he 450 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:22.079 doesn't win the nomination, and it's unlikely at this point, but we also 451 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:28.039 said that at Trump with Trump many years ago, it's unlikely. But even 452 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:32.679 if he doesn't, he's already elevated his public profile already so that he can 453 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:37.519 put himself in a position again famous for being famous, And I think I 454 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:42.800 believe that's one of his motivations. You know, he doesn't really necessarily want 455 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.960 the office. He'll take the power that goes with it, but I don't 456 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:52.639 think he wants the responsibility again, just my opinion. Yet he's and I 457 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.320 think many of them do it with the idea that well, look, I'm 458 00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:59.440 not going to win this, but it's certainly I've created a public profile that 459 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.440 I can use down the road. So in a sense, and I guess 460 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:07.480 it's a smart thing. They use the medium the media for what it was 461 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:10.400 designed to use to get their message out, to get themselves out. Your 462 00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:15.679 thoughts, Well, I think that's completely right. I don't know what he 463 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:21.559 wants. Maybe he's hoping Trump will choose him to be his vice presidential running 464 00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:30.199 mate. Maybe he's hoping that, you know, as Lauren's Tribe and Judge 465 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:38.760 Ludick have argued that whether Trump is convicted or not, the fourteenth Amendment should 466 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:45.800 prevent him from running for president, and so somehow they will go and they 467 00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:54.360 made Republicans will choose this person who's had no experience whatsoever in politics. But 468 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.239 then again, neither did Trump. You know, I think we're in a 469 00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:04.320 very dangerous situation in our democracy. And you know, I was thinking that, 470 00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:07.760 you know, our country survived by and law, I mean means of 471 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:13.000 people died around the world, and over million people in the United States died 472 00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:17.280 of COVID, but by and large or our society did survive COVID. I 473 00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:30.960 think our democracy is under a deadly socially pathogenic attack right now. And you 474 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:34.960 know, I'm an optimist. I think that there's still a majority of people 475 00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:40.480 who do value truth and prought of what needs to be done is getting everyone 476 00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:47.519 over eighteen out there and voting. And but I am not going to be 477 00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:53.719 comfortable about where the future of our country is going until this next election takes 478 00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:57.960 place. You know. Well, in one last thought, I and we 479 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:02.039 discussed before we came or do our taping. I saw an interview with some 480 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.400 MAGA supporters and they yes, would you continue to support and vote for President 481 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:12.320 and Trump if he's convicted in a jail? Said? We said absolutely, 482 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.639 even if he's in a jails. Paul, for the life of me, 483 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:20.079 I can't understand the logic of that, and how how do we we counter 484 00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:23.719 because it's not just one or two people, it's millions of people. Harol 485 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:29.960 Fhitler was in prison in the late nineteen twenties and he used that as one 486 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.960 of the main things when he was running for election after that to basically strengthen 487 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:42.199 his support. Wow, Paul, well we're at it. We're at it 488 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:46.440 again. We just hopefully we just saved we just saved American democracy. Yet 489 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.039 he goes not stupid to think that we actually could. But somebody's got into 490 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.599 it. Paul, Right, Hey, maybe you and I should run for 491 00:44:55.719 --> 00:45:00.719 office. You and I both will be ticket. I'll tell you that would 492 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:05.519 be some ticket. Paul. Of course, thank you for being Frank with 493 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:08.559 your intelligent conversation. Always. You know, you're always You're always welcome here. 494 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.920 Pleasure is always Frank, appreciate it. Of course, we offer special 495 00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.119 thanks to our listeners. We take a little time to give us a voice 496 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:21.119 in their lives. And remember we offer a fresh topic every week and you 497 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:25.639 can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts like Apple, Spotify, 498 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.000 iHeart Radio, Speaker and more. You can also check us out on 499 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:36.320 the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Leave us a comment. We also ask 500 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:42.719 you to consider sharing being Frank with others. Believe the two last little nuggets. 501 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.519 First, of course my quote and of course I went to the man 502 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:52.000 hunter S. Thompson, and I think we'll all appreciate this considering our discussion 503 00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:58.800 tonight. In a closed society where everybody is guilty, the only crime is 504 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:05.239 getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. 505 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:07.679 Paul. Again, another reason I like to have you on the shows. 506 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.880 You make my life easy in so many ways. You're a musician as 507 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:14.400 well. I always call you the renaissance man. I was going to say, 508 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.039 you know, take in mind, taking into consideration, keep in mind 509 00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:21.760 that neither of us are lawyers. But I don't know, Paul, you 510 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:27.000 might you might be you two so much, but but I certainly love your 511 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:30.440 music. Tell us what are we going to hear tonight? You picked out 512 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:32.800 a tune for us. Well, you know, if you think about our 513 00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:38.400 discussion, it almost seems like we're living in an alternate reality, something that's 514 00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:44.119 not quiet democracy. As a science fiction writer, as you also know because 515 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:47.199 we've done a show on it, thank you, I have an alternate reality 516 00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:52.320 story. It's real life. What would the world be like had John, 517 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:59.079 had Lena not been assassinated and the Beatles survived, but as a group of 518 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:06.760 four. But I also wrote a song about love across alternate realities, And 519 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:10.440 of course you know it's science fiction, but still a love song. And 520 00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:15.119 the name of the song is some mathon all right, we need that tonight 521 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:19.719 for our engineer, Neil Richter. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. We 522 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.559 hope to have you join us for the next being. Frank, We're the 523 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:27.920 only way to be is Frank, have some more intelligent conversation. Please join 524 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:39.159 us again. We'll see you next time. Some matha. Can't you see 525 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:52.920 there's no way to love work for you? Yeah, it's true. Some 526 00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:12.000 Mantha facts so sweets past not but we can do. You come from that 527 00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:21.440 hold and die that shot. That's what makes you so of healing, but 528 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:30.440 that's what puts being all to see you come from. But it ain't stop. 529 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.639 Check they'll put you by that and in time I'll put you by that 530 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:46.199 on that die. Some mad das with me. But I don't think that 531 00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:57.960 would be on the phone next year because you won't be in it. Some 532 00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:07.159 man I changes. We couldn't trip way art see, it won't be live 533 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:22.000 and you really, your love just wants to live and story Shore does and 534 00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:30.760 now with feeling all that, now news is worth to your love. Just 535 00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:40.639 as I stood up to Shore, I I can't do the time and you 536 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:53.880 get to love crying. I trust three hour to some man tregious see weconcide. 537 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:51.280 We can't twist and shoe what Hudson River Radio dot com