WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.799 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:09.480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.279 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.440 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:35.320 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to 6 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.880 dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'matechard Campbell, and we are in 7 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:44.200 our respective hovels. Here me on the East coast of North America. You 8 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.240 on the West coast of North America. Yep, both experiencing some weather. 9 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:51.240 Oh yeah, I mean it's warmer here, right. There's a little bit 10 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:54.000 of snow on the hilltops, which is where it should be, but just 11 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:57.640 a bit stormy. But you're right on the ocean. This is the trade, 12 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:03.920 right, So we're recording this ring what is really being hyped up as 13 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:10.280 like the worst storm to ever hit America ever? Really? Yeah, because 14 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:15.120 it's big, Yes, because it's big and tornadoes and like there's multiple fronts 15 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.159 and multiple things happening up here in the East coast. We're going to get 16 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:26.239 rain and strong winds with hurricane watches. So you know, if it was 17 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.599 colder, it would be a nor'easter, right, And I guess it's still 18 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.879 a nor Easter because it's coming out of the northeast. Yeah, nor eastern. 19 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:34.920 Typically you got the warm jet stream coming up from the south, the 20 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:40.400 southwest, and you got the Arctic blast coming over the Great Lakes and they 21 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:47.200 kind of join up and turn into Snowmageddon. But it's no snow this time. 22 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.879 Well, very little, I guess, but where I am. But 23 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:56.280 anyway, so we're we're hunkering down for a good show here, and thank 24 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.799 god the propane tank is full and the generators working. Yeah, I stalk 25 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:05.079 the wood in case we lose the electrical heat, although heating on wood is 26 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:07.560 pleasant, you know. But you know what though, if you lose power, 27 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:12.800 Yeah, what would be better then? To, you know, pull 28 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.719 out your battery powered phone or whatever, plug in a charger and listen to 29 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:21.919 some old dot it rock shows there what would be better? Okay, maybe 30 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.159 drinking yourself silly might be better, but I can think of a couple other 31 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:30.280 things. You know, you can do both. That's true. Hey, 32 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.479 David Fowler is here. We're going to be talking about dot net Aspire, 33 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:46.400 but first let's roll crazy music for better no framework awesome. What do you 34 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.159 got? This being showed eighteen hundred and eighty one, which is just unbelievable, 35 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:57.439 isn't it? M palindrome? Yeah exactly. Yeah, I noticed that 36 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:04.199 the last day of twenty three was one two three one two three one two 37 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.680 three yes, yeah, two three one two three one two three yeah. 38 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:14.120 All right, So it's eighteen eighty one dot pop dot me and that'll bring 39 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:21.240 you to leftover Salad dot com to some cartoon versions of personifications of your favorite 40 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.680 programming languages, and I just it just made me crack up. The first 41 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.240 one, Python is a hipster smoking a cigar. He's got tattoos and holding 42 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:37.599 a coffee cup, and he says, my formatting is my syntax. Boomer. 43 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:39.759 No, you didn't say boomer, but I can just I can just 44 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:46.319 see you can hear it. Yeah, So I asked you both, David 45 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.280 and Richard, to take a look and tell me your favorite ones. What's 46 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.840 your favorite one? Richard? Oh? Well, see Sharp, obviously I 47 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:58.800 have a daughter just like that. Yeah, C sharp is I am nothing 48 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.719 like my father, and she looks C and C plus plus she looks uh 49 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:08.599 off the father. Yeah. So the right right above her is Sea, 50 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.840 which is an old guy with a big gray beard and a balding head. 51 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.480 If you're not allocating memory, you're not living. And then C plus plus 52 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.879 right below it is the same guy, same caption, except now he has 53 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:26.040 borg implants. Right, David, did you find one that tickled you? 54 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.000 I thinkline is my favorite. Yeah, he's awesome. Her ling's very manga, 55 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.600 isn't it is it is? And it's uh. It's this woman with 56 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:40.279 a with a cane and skeletons behind her, and she's saying, destroy one 57 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:45.199 of my processes and I will only grow stronger. And that is a magic 58 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:49.720 staff if I've ever seen one. Absolutely, she's wearing like an amulet and 59 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:54.680 there's like mascara dripping from her from her eyes or whatever that is. I 60 00:04:54.680 --> 00:05:00.040 don't know, right, although Haskell is probably like peak. Yeah, the 61 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:05.319 diagram is exactly what I think of HOSCO programmers, Like above everything this pure 62 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:11.720 math, everything is just like it is perfect. Yeah. And then go 63 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:17.399 is this giant Google monster, you know, with a Google T shirt just 64 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:23.120 ripped right, bald head and it's a little nerd sitting in front with bang 65 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:28.279 Eyes. All right, Well anyway, okay, I thought that was fun. 66 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:30.839 It's a good diversion. So Richard, who's talking to us today, 67 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:32.959 Well, it turns out we haven't had mister Fowler on the show for a 68 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.839 little while, probably a little too long actually, but he's been busy being 69 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:41.360 a distinguish engineer and stuff. So I'm yeah, we're not gonna fuss too 70 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:45.120 much on that. He gets a get out of jail free card. Well, 71 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.199 and I went back and looked at some of the old shows and so 72 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.360 forth. I'm like, hey, you know, but I found this great 73 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.279 comment just by searching on his name. Actually, it's actually a comment. 74 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.639 It's seventy years old. It's from August of twenty sixteen, episode thirteen thirty 75 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.240 five, and when we were talking to Matt Watson, who's the Stacify guy, 76 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.000 about his experiences migrated to dot net Core, of which we blame David 77 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:11.600 for extensively. And so Matthew Decree made this comment admittedly seven years ago, 78 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.160 where he said, having weathered the storm of dot net core and its other 79 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.759 names since Beta eight, I can completely understand the frustrations trying to follow all 80 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:23.759 the decisions that have been made. I even gave up during the RC periods. 81 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:27.160 Yeah, there was some bumpy times getting too V one holy man. 82 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.519 However, the dot Net standard version is much easier to understand if only you 83 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:35.160 have the right resources. Trouble is it seems that a large number of naming 84 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:40.399 changes. That seems to be that there are many official locations for documentation too, 85 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:44.720 remember to Life before Learn, none of which you appear to be completed. 86 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:48.439 I guess a documentation is in preview two. I did manage to and 87 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:54.839 they managed to find an analogy by David Fowler, and he provides a link 88 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:01.160 to a GitHub doc that's not in his head David that puts in terms any 89 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.879 c sharp should be able to understand with code. With this is clear to 90 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:10.480 understand the PCL capabilities. You can target the right version based on your capabilities. 91 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.399 It even describes Zamaran libraries in these terms. As a result, it 92 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.759 makes it easier to know whether you're making a library that can be run on 93 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.199 mobile or at least in that sense, if it compiles, it can ship. 94 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:23.360 And that's what delighted me about this find right, was it's like, 95 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.360 oh, it's David Fowler. So he answered a question with code. Of 96 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.759 course, it's great. And the code still run, is still up, 97 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.720 it's still there. I mean, of course the pcls are gone. Let's 98 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:38.560 not talk about that, my god. But yeah, it was such a 99 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.560 cool comment and I probably should have read it years ago because it was one 100 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.160 of those great things about how do you explain stuff to people? Yeah, 101 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:46.759 so, Matthew, thank you so much for your comment. A copy of 102 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.920 music Cobe is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 103 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.199 of music Code buy I write a comment on the website dot net rocks dot 104 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.120 com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and if you comment 105 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.519 there and a reading the show, we'll send your copy music Codbear and you 106 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:00.839 can follow us on Twitter if you want to. But the cool kids are 107 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.160 hanging out. I'm mastadon, I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, 108 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:11.040 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadondol social sen Usitute. You might get a 109 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:18.480 mug. Pretty sure you won't, Pretty sure you might. All right, 110 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.160 so let's bring David Fowler back here. He joined Microsoft, of course, 111 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.639 as a developer on the aspenat team in two thousand and eight. Before that, 112 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:31.839 he did two internships at Microsoft as a tester and developer. He's originally 113 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:33.559 from Barbados and went to college in Florida. And you may have heard of 114 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.320 a couple of things he's been interested in, like I don't know signal R 115 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.759 you know that little thing, lots of other stuff. And now we're going 116 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.840 to be talking to him about Aspire. Hey, David, what's up. 117 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.120 Hey y'all, haven't seen you in a while, haven't hung out for a 118 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.519 bit. Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, you know kidding, 119 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And again, congratulations on the distinguished engineer. 120 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:03.159 I don't even know if I know people people know what that even means. 121 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.120 Yeah, I think it means a little bit of great hair. You 122 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.720 had been doing this for a while, Tiny. It's weird when you go 123 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:16.559 from being the youngest person on the team, being the intern, to like 124 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.120 being there for a long time and only beginning to realize how long you've been 125 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:24.679 there when new people join and they ask you questions and you're like, what, 126 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.639 huh, you guys not just normal? If you guys want to hear 127 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.799 Old, I remember when dot net Aspire was a program designed to support the 128 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.159 growth and development of developers who are passionate about dot net technology. Oh my 129 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:43.919 gosh, name reuse problems that never happens. What that's not? That's not 130 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.399 that's not a thing. So if you go to chat GPT and ask can 131 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.240 you tell me about dot net Aspire, that's what comes out, unless you 132 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:52.320 ask it to go to the web and say no, no, no, 133 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:58.240 no, I'm talking about the Azure thing net framework thing. Oh my name 134 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.919 is super hard. I mean yeah, I remember even trying to name things 135 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.879 like Signal Or, Razor, Blazer. We got some pretty cool names. 136 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.519 I will like, Blazer is a really good name. Yeah. Finally Razors 137 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:16.279 as well, Razor Exactly. It's not Microsoft rendering tech stock for SP three 138 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.120 like that meme that we have at Microsoft were naming things poorly. Blazer and 139 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.240 Razor brought the entire mold. I mean to be clear, it's not a 140 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:39.279 meme just at Microsoft Over Technology Foundation otherwise known as w t F. Yeah, 141 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.200 OKID, it's been a ride. So it was an Ignite that you 142 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.919 decided to roll this thing out. Couldn't wait for build? Huh you were 143 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.799 ready, couldn't wait for build? That's right, that's right, Ignite. 144 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:56.559 What's insandable? Aspire was the team had a lot of ideas rolling in our 145 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.360 brands for like a couple of years now, right, So we did TIE 146 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.600 in twenty nineteen, and Tie if you hadn't seen it, it's still there 147 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.000 on GitHub, dot net, slash tight and TIE was our first real attempt 148 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:18.080 at trying to build a micro service tool developer experience for making easy to develop 149 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:22.320 these kinds of applications that were that were made up of multiple parts of your 150 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.320 app. And the story of TIE is is interesting because what ended up happening 151 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:31.039 was was twenty nineteen was that year where Kubernetes was like we had been ignoring 152 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.039 it, but me personally had been like, you see it, and it's 153 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.840 important, and it's a thing people are learning, but it you put it 154 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:41.320 in the back burner and you wait to see if you get more signal. 155 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.279 And it kept getting stronger and stronger. Okay, this is the thing that 156 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.120 people are using, and this is TIE T y E tie T y e. 157 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.240 Yeah exactly, yep, yeah, yeah. You know. I went 158 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.919 researching dot net Aspire a little deeper from when I saw it ignite, and 159 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.679 the first thing that came to mind is, oh, kind of like as 160 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:09.600 your service fabric, but you know, community driven and yeah, so and 161 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.240 we should correct one thing before Jeff Fritz actually reaches through the wire and strangles 162 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.720 us all. He announced it a dot comp which happened to the same same 163 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.919 time as a night but and I was working a night although I did do 164 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.960 a shift at dot net comp, but it was a dot dot com. 165 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:33.039 So please no car box, like, calm down. I very angry right 166 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:37.360 now. And we were we were actually at Ignite like that same week. 167 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.679 So I did the keynote dot net Comp. We did talks, and then 168 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:46.360 I did the two panels like Aspire and stuff at Ignite in Seattle. So 169 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.720 you did talk about Aspire at Ignite while also having announced it at dot net 170 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:58.320 Comp. Correct, because that's not confusing at all. That comp is a 171 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:05.720 community thing, right that Microsoft gets behind, and you know Ignite is obviously 172 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.519 Microsoft's baby. But from what I remember, there were more people that were 173 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.919 tuned into dot net KOMPF than went to Ignite. It was huge this year, 174 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:20.279 like it was insane this year. Just yeah, quite amazing actually watching 175 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:24.879 that conference girl from this super small thing that Heavier kind of helped together into 176 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:31.080 what it is today insanely massive conference that people watch real time life, and 177 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:33.039 it was a ton of fun, like making the keynote recording at this time. 178 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:41.559 I remember last year the keynote is life ye oh my gosh. Yeah, 179 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:45.919 total stressful, like the back to back rehearsals making a keynote like work. 180 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:50.360 Well yeah, well I know that you are no stranger to live keynote 181 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:56.879 code on the fly, demos that blow people's minds like mine. It's funny. 182 00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:01.879 Life coding to me is like the easy part, right yeah, all 183 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.200 right, so let's just talk about dot net Aspire. What is it? 184 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.480 So tai Tie is the precursor project, right, yeah, yeah, so 185 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.879 Tie is the precursor, but in particular, how does it compare to as 186 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.720 a service fabric, which kind of walks in the same path. Yeah. 187 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.720 So what's funny is when we were building TAI, I felt like we were 188 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:28.039 going to get feedback about Doctor Composed and Thaie service fabric. Kind of surprised 189 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.919 me, to be ho, and it should have, but it surprised me 190 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.639 that people drew the comparison. But it in hindsight it made complete sense because 191 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:41.360 Microsoft shit and Orchestrator. So during the Great Orchestration Wars of twenty you don't 192 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:46.080 know fifteen to twenty nineteen. Right, there was Mesos from Apache. There 193 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.679 was like it was Mesos, Doctor Swarm, Kubernetes, Service fabric. Right, 194 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.600 there are these four big ones that people were all using, and there's 195 00:14:54.639 --> 00:15:00.279 one called Nomad from I think Hashi Quork, and everyone was kind of trying 196 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.559 to see which one to win. I'm not sure if you recall, but 197 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.960 in Azure there was there was a service called ACS, right Adre I think 198 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.360 it was the original AJUC container service, and it supported multiple orchestrators. You 199 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.879 could pick your own and there was no winner at that point. Right, 200 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:22.279 you could pick an orchestrator like and bring your own containers. And then Kubernetes 201 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.039 won. A service fabric is still very much used, Like, yeah, 202 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.960 it's not like it went away and enterprise is Yes, it's still there. 203 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.759 Right, why do you think Kubernetes won? But it's also really tied to 204 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:37.039 Azure, isn't it service fabric. I mean it will run on Primo, 205 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.159 we'll run on whatever cloud. But it's really it really shines because it's using 206 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:46.320 I mean Azure itself is using service fabric, but it is the core of 207 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.799 Azure uses service fabric for sure. The Spire is really more like a framework, 208 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.960 isn't it. For the dot net framework that super challenging makes it easy 209 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.519 to put these things together. So there's the difference. We had this really 210 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.960 hard time trying to figure out how to describe it succinctly, like what is 211 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:07.399 a single sensus that describes what Aspire is because it combines kind of four things 212 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.799 together and it is a framework, but it isn't a framework, So like, 213 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:15.360 don't you don't use the Aspire framework. You use it's been at core 214 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.240 right. One of the challenges was, you know, we built this amazing 215 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.039 website, we built this amazing tech over the last like eight years, and 216 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.519 we have all these pieces that you can put together yourself in an application, 217 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.080 but you kind of have to know how to do it. How do you 218 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.559 wire up telemetry, how do you wire up wire up poly how do you 219 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:41.159 wire up health checks? All these things existed in the ecosystem, but putting 220 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.679 it together into a package and having it be orchestrated and to end is the 221 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:52.919 thing that aspired it to Aspire added orchestration for local development and give you patterns 222 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.879 in your application for that. And what's funny is the tech isn't new. 223 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.200 It's just we we glued things together that were that were there already, right, 224 00:17:03.079 --> 00:17:07.400 So I looked at the Aspire components. Yeah, and you know, 225 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.359 there are all the components that I would use my own dot net framework, 226 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.880 except they have an Aspire in front of them. So yeah, obviously, 227 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:19.079 so like Aspire dot as your blob service or whatever is as your blob service, 228 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.680 but it's got the glue to hook it into the rest of what Aspire 229 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:27.559 does. Open telemetry, Yeah, there's tons of them. Open Telemetry Configuration 230 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.839 DII exactly exactly, so, and it's funny. We spent a lot of 231 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:38.640 time trying to figure out if that's valuable, Like is it valuable to have 232 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:45.880 Glue packages that our version consistently and that glue things together that you would always 233 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.680 need in an application. And we went back and forth with the you know, 234 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.400 the adre ESDIKA team. Should we put this in the SDK, Should 235 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.039 we have a separate component? What's the value in having a separate thing on 236 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:02.000 a glue package? But it I think based on what we've seen feedback, 237 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.200 why so far people love the convenience, Like you basically grab this package and 238 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.599 you call a method and it wires up like four or five things that you 239 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:14.079 would have had to do by hand. And I think in isolation it looks 240 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.160 simple, Yeah, I did it once this one time here for this one 241 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.200 component. But when it's four or five reds and blogs and all these and 242 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:27.839 you have distributed tracing on canfig config working, de I working, and it 243 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:32.880 also configures the pipeline in the right order. Right, I mean that's right. 244 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.559 That's that's the biggest problem. When you have these things. It's like 245 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.279 where does this go? Right? Yeah, exactly, It's like a jigsaw 246 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:44.519 puzzle. Yep. And some of this actually came out of watching there were 247 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:49.039 some internal teams building these higher level libraries on top of lower level SDKs, 248 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.920 and we asked them like, why are you not using the SDK as is? 249 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.240 And they were like, well, if you're building an at skilled cloud 250 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.799 service. Turns out these default configured, configed heatings made to work in any 251 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.599 of it don't work well for the for our services. So we went, 252 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.279 huh, could we take what you've learned from kind of building, you know, 253 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.200 the team's backhand or the bang backhand and package it into a way that 254 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:18.359 just works for our customers by default. So aspires trying to take knowledge from 255 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.279 teams at Microsoft building high skill services and making it available for a third party 256 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.839 as well. That's as well. Nice. Yeah, there's a lot there. 257 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.160 There's a lot to it. But at the end of the day, 258 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:36.759 it's about that configuration, isn't it. It's about the distributed builders. Instead 259 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:40.119 of like the regular old app builder you do in aspn net, you use 260 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.720 the Aspire builder and then you can just add reddits at this ad that, 261 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.880 yeah, wherever, and it just figures out how to put that pipeline together. 262 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.640 Correct. One of the the first things we did was we took the 263 00:19:52.839 --> 00:20:00.519 shop example on containers. Was one of like, is that it's funny? 264 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.359 The backstory for shop is kind of incredible. One of our product managers, 265 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:07.640 i want to say, like seven years ago, said we need to have 266 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.279 this sample and a book with it, and they kind of like on their 267 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.720 own built this thing, right, got vendors built, built this mega samples 268 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.319 out. It's super popular, right, yeah, it never goes away, 269 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:26.240 it never goes it super popular. So we were like, okay, that's 270 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.160 why I said, it's like really I heard I heard you. Well shop 271 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:37.079 Shop got a massive revamp revapp in so the engineering team to cover e shop. 272 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.119 So now the Aspinet core team owns the shop. There's a there's a 273 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:45.519 new fork. It was a new repo that is kind of like successful to 274 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:49.160 the older one containers and it's a Spire based a Blazer front end, right, 275 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.000 yeah, it got it. It's all a Blazer front end, like 276 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.039 it's all modern, super modern, has a beautiful photo like the the the 277 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:03.079 diagram is like amazing, and it's all Aspire based. And part of the 278 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.720 proof we were like, okay, we need to be able to take each 279 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:14.480 shop which is built on Doctor Composed and had a lot of manual deployment scripts 280 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.359 for deployment to different parts of Azure like akas Aca, et cetera. And 281 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.480 we said, okay, our test is we need to be able to take 282 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.640 at a minimum a thing like each shop and aspiify it and then like be 283 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.640 able to deploy it to Azure and have it just work right Azure or crew 284 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:38.039 nities and have it just work without too much changes. Right. The Doctor 285 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:42.200 composed situation for Aspire and those who don't know, Doctor composed is a way 286 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:49.960 to compose a multi process application locally, but you have to put everything in 287 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.079 containers first. One of the big pain points in building doctor files for dot 288 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:03.119 net projects is you have to copy every single project reference into the container for 289 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.319 container builds. Wow. So if you were to look at the doctor files 290 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:15.000 for the shop, they're like one hundred lines long copying cs projects because Dunnet 291 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.000 has solutions and project references and you end up having to copy the transitive closure 292 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:23.559 of all these dependencies just to build containers. Right, So imagine. So 293 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:30.480 I've seen feedback people saying why would I use Aspire if I have composed And 294 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.039 I think the the what ends up happening there is if you figured out the 295 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.119 secret sauce to make it all work, and you have like massage your composed 296 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:42.880 files to a point where if you're Mark Randall, yeah if if you if 297 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.640 you somehow figured it out, then maybe you're happy with what you have. 298 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:52.519 But the moment you want to change add move things around, it gets hard 299 00:22:52.519 --> 00:23:00.000 again, right right? Yeah, wait for two exactly. So the when 300 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.200 I mean when we moved each shop to Aspire, when we got enough of 301 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.799 Aspire working to move each op to it, it was like, holy crap, 302 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:12.200 Like we move and I think there were like four or five composed files 303 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:18.519 on different environments because if yamo, there's no code you can't write if statements. 304 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:23.720 You're you're bound by Like you basically end up having n different files for 305 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.400 any different configurations. Right where in the Inspire world we give you see sharp 306 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:30.759 and you can write it if statement and you can declare variable. So like 307 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:33.960 you end up in this place where I can just write code to say, 308 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.559 if I'm in development, do X, otherwise do y right, yeah, 309 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:44.680 super nice, super nice dot net visual studio, dot net templates. Yeah, 310 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.359 is that where we would start, Like, I know you need docer 311 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.759 for desktop, but I think it requires currently the preview version of visual Studio, 312 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:53.880 right, yeah, so there is, there is. It's funny this, 313 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:59.480 This is one of the big things when we were like debating how were 314 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.319 things land first, you can use Aspire from the command line or VS coach 315 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:10.839 is fine, okay, cool, right? Big thing VS big VS does 316 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.160 for you is when you hit F five, it'll auto attach to all your 317 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.279 processes and you can debug. That's one of the big things people ask for 318 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.279 When we did TIE three or four years ago, it was I want to 319 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.160 be able to debug a micro service, and I want to hit F five, 320 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.480 and I wanted to launch the under the debugger all of my processes, 321 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.920 so I can step across the end to end tracing right the end to end. 322 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:37.240 So typically you do that with the solution properties, right, run multiple 323 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:41.079 projects exactly the same time, so you don't have to do that, correct, 324 00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:42.240 you don't have to do it. So your Aspire app, it just 325 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:48.519 launches like end projects, containers, processes, and it will attach and you 326 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.759 can just step into it. That's cool. Yeah, so be more of 327 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.160 that please, it's super nice. Yeah. We we built this local orchestrator 328 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.920 and I think this is where the service fabric can be comes in because it 329 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.400 has a very similar thing where service fabric has a local orchestrator, but that 330 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:11.000 thing is the real orchestrator. When you deploy to like your environment on prem 331 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.400 or to Azure, you are running that orchestrator. Yeah. Service service fabric 332 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:19.480 is really it includes the platform, the path. The platform is a service 333 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:25.160 right, yes, correct, it's the platform right like it really is like 334 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.079 you are running service fabric. It is an all in one, like give 335 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:32.279 me the local dev orchestrator and then when you publish you get that same experience 336 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:37.400 like in the cloud or whatever else. So Aspire Aspire is different different It 337 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.759 differs there it's lightweight's community driven. Did we mention that open source? It 338 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:48.839 is this lightweight orchestrator and actually details wise, it's actually built on the Kubernetes 339 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:55.160 pattern locally, but then when you when you deploy, when you publish, 340 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.960 we create this intermediate format or IL if you must. This manifest. It 341 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.759 is declarative and it kind of describes all of the resources used to build the 342 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:18.440 application locally. And then it's definitely Jason, but this is one of the 343 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.680 big things we were trying to figure out, what do we how do you 344 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:27.799 go from local development to production? Right? Do you do? You do? 345 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:32.559 You take the orchestrator everywhere you go. So we said, no, 346 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.039 that isn't what we're gonna do. We're gonna spit out this manifest that kind 347 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:40.920 of describes in this declarative format all the resources and all the types. The 348 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:45.359 reatises all the caches, environment variables. And then it's up to a separate 349 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.960 tool to glean from that manifest and turn it into concrete resources. So when 350 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.240 you use the Azure Developer c l I you say a cd up, it 351 00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:00.640 actually tells ASPIRER give me your manifest and then it'll convert that manifest into BICEP, 352 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.200 which is the you know, the as code language for azure. Yeah. 353 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:07.559 Yeah, it's for ARM for as your resource man exactly, for for 354 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:14.279 ARM exactly. It's nicer ARM than ARM Jason. But it's writing ARM under 355 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:15.799 the hood for you, just so you know, like there's no voodoo here. 356 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.799 It is, but there's no matches. But if you've gotten tired of 357 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:23.640 staring at Jason, like is more language y correct, I'm more tired of 358 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:29.759 staring at Yamel. Honestly. One of the big things that we were we 359 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.400 were trying to have as a as a selling point for a spier was like, 360 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.039 are you tired of looking at Yamo your silver Hansleman must have been involved 361 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:41.279 in that because he hates it just as much as I do, honestly. 362 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:44.759 Like when you enter the cloud Nati space, one of the big things I 363 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:49.960 think people just accept is like there is YAMO and can figure everywhere you are 364 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:57.119 doing bits together by editing canfig files and passing in IP addresses and host and 365 00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:02.720 trying to figure out how things all like do this right glue together? No, 366 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.039 get hub told me again, YAML is my number two language and I'm 367 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:11.319 like, Steph, I bleue a lot of stuff together, Like that's just 368 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.240 reality for me. Yeah, it is. I think one of the big 369 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:22.400 things Aspire will enable is building an ecosystem of packages that hide some of the 370 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.000 YAML that the ammal isn't there is that you didn't have to type it. 371 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:32.400 Yes, Rank God, that's the important part. You call rettis and you 372 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:38.839 can give Intel a sense for configuring the port configuring like the uife reddis and 373 00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.640 you can build like you actually compose things, right. I think one of 374 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.720 the big things that Polumi did, like they put that Plumi figured out which 375 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.279 they knew. Right. With code, you can build abstractions and packages and 376 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.079 modules, and you can you can abstract end things by by having like one 377 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:02.200 interface that does end things under covers yep, the Yamo bass can fig models 378 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:06.119 don't let you do that. You are stuck with stream replacements. You were 379 00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:11.079 like, how do I how do I have Let's say you want to have 380 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:15.599 a base platform for your team, So my team is going to use Grafana 381 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.119 and low key, and you name the top five CNC things, right, 382 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.599 how do you give all of your team a template that says you guys should 383 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.720 use this base template for all of your services. Like it's difficult, right, 384 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:33.519 I wonder what the cartoon representation of Yamo would be. Let's just think 385 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.319 about something to do with like it's duplication. So it's something to do with 386 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:42.880 duplicating stuff everywhere, maybe like Lucille ball trying to sort the strawberries as they 387 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:48.079 come off, or the chocolate chocolate. Yeah. Yeah, So that was 388 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:53.519 one of our big drivers, like could be and it was a big discussion 389 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.079 on the team, like what do we use as this file format? Do 390 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:02.119 we have a solution, do we try to change the solution file because the 391 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:07.920 solution is kind of like the Uber project for multiple projects, but we wanted 392 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.720 something code based. It was like you put together your application by saying, 393 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:17.440 give me an application, let me add projects to it, containers to it, 394 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.880 executables to it. And that gives you enough of a primitive for others 395 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.960 to kind of say, my company is going to use my platform. You 396 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.000 know I can do builder dot add my company's platform composition. Right, things 397 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.480 we learned I don't know, fifty years ago from programming languages that can picktiles 398 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:41.240 don't give you nonm ranting. Yeah, I know, it's so great that 399 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.319 we're on the same team. Hey, guys, let's just take a break 400 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:51.680 real quick for these very important messages and we'll be right back. And we're 401 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.880 back. It's dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. It's my friend Richard 402 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.039 Campbell. He get out there with the beavers and the otters and the bears, 403 00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.400 most of the otters these days. And we're talking to David Fowler for 404 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:07.720 Microsoft about dot net Aspire and how absolutely freaking cool it is and how much 405 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:12.720 I love Jason, and I know, you know, it also strikes me 406 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:17.759 that this might be the thing that gets you know, I developed a dot 407 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:21.799 a developer that hasn't really gotten into the micro services container space yet, and 408 00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:26.759 said, am I ready now? Because it's pretty intimidating, you know, 409 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.839 I got to this project works, you want me to do? What to 410 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.319 it? You know exactly? So I just I just wonder, coming from 411 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:38.000 an existing application that just hasn't been broken down in that way at all, 412 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:41.319 it's just a happy ball of mud. Great question, and then we do 413 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.079 that. Yeah, can Aspire help me get started it? Can it? 414 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:52.240 One of the big things we tempted to do was Aspire has kind of these 415 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:59.480 four main pieces like orchestration, components, telemetry. You can kind of pull 416 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.200 in what you want want to pull in for your projects, so you can 417 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:06.799 adopt at your own pace. One of the big things we learned and personally 418 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.880 personally that I learned doing dot net Core in the first place, was people 419 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:15.759 love migration when they can opt into doing it incrementally, right, Yeah, 420 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:21.799 no dead drops please. We just had a great show with with with Jimmy 421 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.920 Bogart where he talked about migrating a framework app over the core, you know, 422 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:30.359 to starting you got went to six and then up from there and just 423 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:34.480 that we reverse processes things so you can just replace one piece at a time. 424 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:39.279 It's always done on two platforms. And but no dead drops except that 425 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:46.680 one day there's nothing left running in framework anymore except authentication. That was last 426 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.359 off session super heard off in session. But yeah, so that that was 427 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:57.960 one of our main driving factors. Like you add the Aspire orchard to your 428 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.720 main solution and you just get Aspire. You launched that project, it'll launch 429 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.599 your big application, your big ball of mud, and you get the dashboard, 430 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.279 you get telemetry like you can you can kind of ease your way into 431 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:15.079 getting these benefits and features, You get container published, you get deployed to 432 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:22.440 different environments, you watch the percentage of mud go down every day. That's 433 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:27.160 the whole. Right. We have big aspirations. I'll tell you. While 434 00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.400 we were doing the Aspire prototype, I was trying to project, like a 435 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:32.839 couple of years out, what this could look like in the in the long 436 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:38.400 run, And there were ideas floating around and just about being able to build 437 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.799 your app as a monolith, the holy grail. Right you to build your 438 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.160 app. You think about app components, you think about parts of your app, 439 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:50.599 and I think laser is the first incantation of seeing this from for a 440 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.359 client framework. Yes, I mean and next jess and spelt kittting those things. 441 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:58.559 Let me carve off a set of my app as a component, and 442 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.599 then let me name it. And then I'm going to turn that universe into 443 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:07.960 a deployable asset. So it doesn't matter if I start as one project or 444 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.800 like five projects. I can isolate my code, and I can isolate my 445 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:17.159 app into different deployable units. Yes, and I feel as though Aspire is 446 00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:22.320 kind of inching in that direction. We started off with this very basic like 447 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.400 I can add a project here, I can add a container here. You 448 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:28.599 can imagine that being like, let me add a chunk of code, and 449 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.760 that chunk of code becomes its own deployable unit. Right. So I think 450 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:36.960 I feel like that is the way to get people into a mode where I 451 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:40.400 can build my application without feeling guilty that I did it wrong, right, 452 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.639 and I can shift and change and refractor like as I go as I grow, 453 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:50.480 right, Because who would want to start with micro services? Like when 454 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:55.159 you don't have the complexity like it, it's asking for pain before you have 455 00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:00.760 that desire, right, And if you can have someone be pretty active when 456 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:04.199 they start off, start off, and then as they scale up, they 457 00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:06.840 don't have to rewrite everything from scratch, like, I think that is the 458 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:09.920 holy girl we've been looking for for the last Like I don't know how many 459 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:15.159 years we've been doing software right, many many many many many years. Yeah, 460 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.840 Yeah, it's been a while. Good stuff. It's good stuff. 461 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.000 So we were talking about the open source finess of Aspire. So in terms 462 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:30.679 of those community contributions, what are some of the areas in dot net Aspire 463 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:36.480 that could benefit the most from open source development. So one of the big 464 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.719 parts of Aspire that we knew, we knew would be once it controversial. 465 00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:46.599 It was a point of discussion for the team itself was components. Components are 466 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:52.920 accurated. One of the big things we were trying to learn from watching other 467 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:57.400 players in the space spring boot being the Java equipment, the biggest probably the 468 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:00.760 biggest well known thing in the club needs space for a spring Boot. Right. 469 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:05.320 One of the things they have is this thing called spring Cloud, which 470 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:08.159 is essentially a set of components that are curated. So when you are looking 471 00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:14.159 for something like a critis or a database driver or any client library for any 472 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.079 open source piece of software, they had an answer, right. And it 473 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.679 wasn't that we didn't have an answer. It was that they showed you this 474 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.920 list that had all the answers. So we were like, you know, 475 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.719 maybe there's something to this list. Let's try to do a curation thing where 476 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:35.960 all the aspiring components are basically this first class list that we create and third 477 00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:37.679 parties can build their own. But if you want to be in the curated 478 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.480 list, you need to you have to be a verified Aspire component, so 479 00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:44.800 you have to come through us, right. That was the You have to 480 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.679 pay your eight dollars a month and get that badge. It's free. It's 481 00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:52.760 free, but you have to pass. You have to We don't really have 482 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:59.280 a really well defined council ar review process as yet, but the intent is, 483 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:02.360 like you if you were in the a Spark component list, you can 484 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:07.320 be sure like the quality is high. It has these these minimum features by 485 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.320 default, et cetera, et cetera. Right, so it is a new 486 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.199 GET package, but it's one where there's like more checks and there's more things 487 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:16.920 in place, and there's more more things that we did to make sure it 488 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:22.719 passes some midbar of feature work. Right. Yeah. The community as soon 489 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.960 as we went by open source, I could not believe how fast the community 490 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:32.440 added more components like we had in the very beginning seql server obviously, like 491 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:39.559 that's what we ship SQL server, seql server postgrass Rettis and the community just 492 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.400 like through out a ton of amazing things. And the prs were of such 493 00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:50.280 high quality it was incredible. We got my cql from the from the my 494 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.599 sql author for dot net. We got after PR, we got Cosmos. 495 00:37:53.679 --> 00:38:00.440 It was just like dB so I yeah, Mango dB like and we didn't 496 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.960 even have a document on how to write components. People just figured out how 497 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:10.159 to write figure it out. But so we're even there yet. It normally, 498 00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:15.320 when I've worked on open source for a long time, and the maturity 499 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:20.559 in the in the pull request that we got for Aspire, we're shocking, 500 00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:25.480 like shocking because these weren't small bug fixes. These weren't like, you know, 501 00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.239 changing the semi colon hair are cleaning up comments. This was here's a 502 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:34.079 whole new feature that works end to end, right, it blew me away. 503 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.360 You mentioned open telemetry, Yeah, so how does that? How did 504 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:42.679 I mean that? That requires some knowledge of how to use open telemetry obviously, 505 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.599 yeah, but how does the how does that work together with Aspire? 506 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:52.719 So one of the things we get to do since it was twenty twenty three 507 00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:54.880 and now we're in twenty twenty four. One of the benefits of coming this 508 00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:00.400 lit to like these spaces are things become more stand so we don't have to 509 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.199 invent our own protocol, we don't have to invent our own tools, we 510 00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.800 don't have to invent our own libraries. Turns out, over the last five 511 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:14.519 or so years, open telemetry has been pretty much being standardized in the industry. 512 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:19.239 So the benefit of that is we in Aspire, we said, how 513 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:23.840 do we get telemetry by default. One of the things we realized was if 514 00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:30.000 you think about the F five experience for a single project, the debugger and 515 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.480 VS and like how amazing it is and the experience you get when you step 516 00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:37.840 through can see variables, what is that experience for distributed systems? Right? 517 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:45.119 And James James King who did just donet. He went away for a week 518 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:50.920 one week, right, and he built this trace UI in the dashboard. 519 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.840 And the first demo we had where we showed someone here's kind of our fate 520 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:58.920 shop and here's the end to end trace, Like, people just sat there 521 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.760 because on F five you had this default end to entrace that went through service 522 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:07.079 A, service B and a database call and it was just on by default. 523 00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:10.960 And all the work we had been doing with open telemetry, with like 524 00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.320 our libraries, with the EF team, with all these open source partners, 525 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:20.639 they had all this stuff like in the tools, it was just really hard 526 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:24.920 to see without wearing up ten different containers and diamo. And now on your 527 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:30.199 default Aspire F five it's just there, right as though we turned the light 528 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.239 on. Someone said, we did all this work and it was invisible, 529 00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:38.400 And now with this one dashboard view. All the work we did over the 530 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:43.079 last five years is like there in your face. Is there a danger in 531 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.960 not knowing how these things work under the hood and just running the default application 532 00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:54.639 the projects and just publishing it. Absolutely so. One of the first Reddit 533 00:40:54.760 --> 00:41:00.079 threads on the Aspire stuff when it first came out, you can see the 534 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.519 the tug of war developers had where this is amazing. It made me so 535 00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:07.440 productive, where some other people are like, oh, you know, this 536 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:14.360 is an astraction layer. I need to know what's happening. I think it's 537 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:20.320 kind of like like like anything else, developers will have to know certain things, 538 00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.719 and I think part of my job and our job as designers of a 539 00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:30.320 framework is to hide stuff but don't make it obscure. Right. So one 540 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.719 of the things we do is when you create an Aspire project. The reason 541 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:39.239 open telemetry works is because there's coding your app that says at open telemetry like, 542 00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:42.679 it's there. We didn't hide it from you. It's not magic, 543 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:49.119 it's right there. Configure with the comment and it says add the the OTLP 544 00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:52.960 exporter, which just says if you have an environment variable to call this thing 545 00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:58.400 like it's passed in from the Aspire host and it works. What I've learned 546 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:02.440 over the years is if developers can draw lines from coll to how things work 547 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:07.599 in their brain, then it becomes less magic and more Oh, I get 548 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:09.360 how that works. I get how this this goes there, how that gets 549 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.599 sent here, et cetera, et cetera. It might be helpful to have 550 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.039 an AI that could explain things when you don't understand what's going on. If 551 00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.960 only we had that. Yeah, if only there was an AI that way, 552 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.519 that would be strange. That's not a real thing. You guys are 553 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:28.400 crazy, but you know, like, Okay, I get how to do 554 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.280 it and it works, But what's going on here? Why does it work? 555 00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:35.360 Right? I love that. I love that. Right now, I 556 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.360 think we're at the phase of what's funny is that discussion? This discussion would 557 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:42.719 have been super strange if we had it like four years ago. Yeah, 558 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:44.400 yeah, it would have been It would have been a joke, right, 559 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.239 It would have been like, it's sort of like, what problem we try 560 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.679 to solve here? Like, what are you talking about? I know we're 561 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.920 here in twenty twenty four saying that statement, and it is reasonable, it's 562 00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:00.679 right. Yeah, I could to the AI like describing how works under the 563 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.960 cover. Is how how like when you create a container and a process held 564 00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.920 in neworking works between them, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, look at 565 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:12.039 my app and draw me a app. Right, that's not crazy, No, 566 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.519 it's not crazy. Yeah, we are. We are interesting towards that. 567 00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:20.519 It's an ability to see these pieces. But the other I mean, 568 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:24.679 part of what you're doing here is you're creating better delineations between pieces of functionality, 569 00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.639 right, yeah, That's always been the problem is it was very it's 570 00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:31.639 very hard to tell what is one piece live and another piece live? And 571 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:36.400 how do they talk to each other? Like that whole manifest part has never 572 00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:42.039 been well described. You really have to read it and dig at it and 573 00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:45.400 then watch it running like it takes a while to have confidence. This is 574 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.320 what this actually means. I've been programming I believe it or not, a 575 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:52.960 Windows Forms app in the last month for a client. Oh man, it's 576 00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:59.960 all like scientific technical analysis kind of stuff. And this this guy who hired 577 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.440 me is a knows VB, knows how to read VB, but he didn't 578 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.559 understand link and so I had some link statements in there that were pretty complex, 579 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.920 and he's like, what the heck is that? And so I just 580 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.199 took the link statement pasted into GPT and says, hey, can you explode 581 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.960 this into four loops for me and comment it? And it did and I 582 00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:22.400 was like, here, this is what it's doing. And I tried it, 583 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.800 you know, and it get me the same result. And so I 584 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:30.840 just left it in the code as commented rights as a way for somebody who 585 00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.360 doesn't understand how to read link statements. That's great idea. It's very very 586 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.239 cool, very powerful stuff. Or here's another thing that you can do the 587 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:43.719 other way. You have this convoluted for loop that somebody's written and you say, 588 00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.079 hey, can you optimize this code for me? And it will? 589 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:51.199 Will it write a link statement? I will tell you, it'll write link 590 00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:54.320 statements, it'll use parallel computing, like you know, it's pretty freaking amazing. 591 00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:59.519 This is a space that there is active interests on our team looking at 592 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.320 like how do we take advantage of the AI to do this kind of stuff? 593 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:07.559 Yeah, because it really does begin to feel like the things that you 594 00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.159 wanted to do before in your brand, you know, possible, Like what 595 00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.000 if we could have Stephen Toby in a box? Right? Yeah? What 596 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.519 if I could just have him on my shoulder when I'm coating, like the 597 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:21.000 toll model, and there's a more optimal way to do that. You know, 598 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:28.679 let me just optimize that for you. Start with the system prompt. 599 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:35.079 You are, Stephen Taub, How would you do this exactly? That's what 600 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.880 you want? Yeah, yeah, But we digress a little bit. This 601 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.440 is a conversation we had with Mad's Targeted back in the day where I said, 602 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:46.199 like, okay, you're twelve versions of C sharp in like what and 603 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:50.840 pretty much the code I wrote in C sharp three still runs just fine, 604 00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.119 So why would I use the new features? He says, You know, 605 00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:58.239 we're really going to have to focus on the tooling to help drive you towards 606 00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:00.960 the new language constructs. So it is that how do you hint? How 607 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:06.960 do you present a given chunk of code that runs It's say, you know, 608 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:09.920 there's a terser way or cleaner way or faster way to do that. 609 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:16.960 Yeah, yeah, it's tricky. Like languages, the changes have I think 610 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:22.079 personally have been quite amazing, and I love the I love hew C sharp 611 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:28.599 mixed things that were arduous and like more verbose, less verbose, and like 612 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:37.039 succinct. I've seen a lot of teeth gnashing about being able to do things 613 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:40.039 in a very similar way with different syntax. The way I see it as 614 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:45.559 the syntax gets cleaner over time, Right, I can do things more more 615 00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.679 expressively and easier. But it can be seen also as like you've added more 616 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.039 ways to do the same thing, Right. I really think that's the thing. 617 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:58.519 We we see as like an even split. Like I'll paste something on 618 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:02.880 Twitter and on X and people will be like, what is this new syntax? 619 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:06.639 I don't understand it, and I'm like, this is super nice to 620 00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:09.679 have. I love the simplification. Simplication. Yeah, that's how I think 621 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:14.639 we see it, like implicit usings. We simplify the syntax. Yeah, 622 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.719 yeah, yeah, we' usings yeah, collection expressions. Yeah, it's beautiful, 623 00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:21.920 beautiful. So I want to get back to something that Richard brought up 624 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:29.280 before the break, which was taking an existing dot net application and what did 625 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:36.800 you say, aspiifying it as asper. So what challenges do you foresee in 626 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.679 adopting dot aspire in existing projects and how can you address them? How can 627 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:45.719 we address them? So the big the biggest broad block thus far has been 628 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:52.000 the fact that the Aspire Aspire has been targeting and up So when we started 629 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:58.519 off, we were like, let's just say it, and immediately you know, 630 00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:01.159 people use the product and they want to use it because I think once 631 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:07.800 you figure out how easy it is to use and how how you can opt 632 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:10.559 into different parts of it incrementally, then I think people begin to say, 633 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:13.639 Okay, this isn't such a big hammer. I don't have to change all 634 00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.119 my stuff. I can add it to all of my stuff, Like, 635 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:20.719 I'm not not worried, right, we will have to see what ends up 636 00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.159 happening there. I think that's one of the big blockers today, Like you 637 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.800 have to be undone at it for it to work, right. So it's 638 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:30.000 really great applications, but for or or if you're going to upgrade to eight, 639 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:34.719 then you'll have Aspire support in your in your apps, right. But 640 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.400 most people are still on earlier versions of dot net let's face it. Yeah, 641 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:42.800 but but you know, if they're on five, then they're unsupported. 642 00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.239 If they're on six, they're supported, right, But I mean, I 643 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:50.920 know people are spread across the spectrum. We we see like that feedback sometimes. 644 00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:57.199 So if you still have a startup dot cs in your project, you 645 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.000 you might be a red neck. Oh my god, do you want to 646 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:05.159 crazy a crazy thing? So when we shipped dot net one core one zero, 647 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.880 right, we had gotten rid of the product Jason, my beloved product 648 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:15.760 Jason that we killed. And there was a team inside Microsoft who had deployed 649 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:22.440 an app on DNX and the engineer that had deployed it left and this engineer, 650 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.599 the engineer that had that took over pay me. I was like, 651 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:29.119 can you please get some support. I don't know how to move this thing. 652 00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:30.960 I don't know what to do with it. We built a tool to 653 00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:36.360 help migrate. So like that's what he did over time, but like something 654 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:38.760 broke and then he was like I can't find the dots anymore because the dots 655 00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:43.360 are now for like the cs fraud and the Jason follow is like gone. 656 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:49.039 And it was yeah, those were tough times, yeah right, crazy? 657 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:57.400 Where was being AI? Yeah? Huh huh. Let's talk about the roadmap 658 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:02.119 for dot net Aspire in any coming features or integrations that you think are particularly 659 00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:07.239 exciting. Yesterday, so let's say we came back from vacation. We shipp 660 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:14.159 preview to just before the breaking for for winter, for before we all left 661 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:17.280 for holidays. What's funny about that one. We a set of us went 662 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:22.800 on vacation and we were trying to ship like days before going on break. 663 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.440 This is about it. They do not ship software days before you to break. 664 00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:29.519 You're going to wrack your holiday, like you're just asking for it. 665 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:32.880 So it took us a couple more days to get it out. So some 666 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.920 of us were like every night I was watching the chats trying to see if 667 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:43.400 we were like any closer we got out the door. Preview two is what 668 00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:45.159 I thought Preview one should have been. How do we had more time? 669 00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:49.719 Preview two is like, yeah, I can try it now. And we 670 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.760 took all of the top feedback and we addressed a bunch of issues. So 671 00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:59.719 people were asking, how would I orchestra and application where I have multiple repositories 672 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.199 right that have my source code? What do I do right? And their 673 00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:08.000 options that are like I can clone them all locally and orchestra and orchestrate that 674 00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.480 way, I can put it in a container. So we basically give you 675 00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:15.960 the options now to do all the things. You can reference projects not in 676 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.360 your solution. You can reference containers, you can reference the process and they 677 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:23.360 all work the same way. That that was one of the big things we 678 00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:28.159 had to solve because everyone saw it and thought, do I have to put 679 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.519 everything in one solution? And then to fight that, we have to have 680 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:36.320 enough features so you can experiment with how you liilt your source code, how 681 00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:38.960 you lailt your projects, et cetera. Right, Yeah, I imagine you 682 00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:42.960 see a lot of variations on that, like more than any given person. 683 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:45.960 Yeah, just because you guys have such a broad view of the different ways 684 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:52.599 that the studio gets used, correct and people. The hardest part. If 685 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:57.159 you look at the Aspire docs, it says that the stack is opinionated. 686 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:02.519 H The team struggles, like we struggle with having strong opinions because we are 687 00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:10.239 built in to be framework designers and we basically build pluggable systems. Yeah right, 688 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:14.599 Yeah, So you have this dynamic between being inclusive. Lots of people 689 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:16.719 can use this the way they want to and opinionate it, so it's not 690 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:21.960 trying to be everything everything exactly, and so it's really nothing exactly. You 691 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.639 got it. Another way to say opinionated is convention over configuration, which last 692 00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:30.960 time I looked, was a really good idea. It is I think some 693 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:37.159 of the Aspire things we said no to early on may come back in the 694 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:42.079 future and people may ask for things like there's a lot of there's a lot 695 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:45.320 of requests and I shouldn't be surprised there are a lot of requests to run 696 00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:50.599 the orchestrator like locally on prem like on prem. People want to replace their 697 00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:55.400 local on prem deployments with I and I guess I'll win now service with Aspire. 698 00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.559 And we had no intention, like zero intention of having this thing live 699 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:05.920 past development, right, So that is N five locally, it's not it's 700 00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.760 not run time exactly. You five locally and you can debug and see the 701 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:14.719 dashboard. But then when you publish, you're targeting something. You you target 702 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:22.039 kubrunettes, you target Azure, you target Amazon's cloud like you you run locally 703 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:28.559 and you target a cloud environment to a space. There's a lot of feedback 704 00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:32.559 from people, and I think the feeling is you can help me make might 705 00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:37.360 out more modern if you give me a way to kind of like take the 706 00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:42.360 ASPA experience, put it onto my local on prem environment, and then I 707 00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.760 can go to the cloud. So that's an interesting like thing that I think 708 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.800 came up that we didn't foresee, Like I did not think that was gonna 709 00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:51.519 be a thing. Do you want to go down the run time of path 710 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:55.159 because man adds a lot of weight. Yeah, just to use Kaberunetes. 711 00:53:55.719 --> 00:54:00.159 Honestly, it might just be if you're on a local machine and you want 712 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:07.719 orchestration Kubernetes, and yeah, exactly, you guys don't want to put exactly 713 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:09.400 exactly you got it. We already had too many as it is, right, 714 00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:15.320 and and Kubernetes now has that that natural monopoly weight that the ecosystems growing 715 00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:20.079 around it. It has Helm and all these other tools right that make our 716 00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:24.119 lives everywhere. Yeah, and everything runs it. So your every nautical metaphor 717 00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:30.280 you can possibly think the same. The same way you made us write less 718 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:36.239 Yamo, you can make us can figure less Kubernetes exactly. So that's what 719 00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:39.760 we're gonna do. So we have this. So on the road map is 720 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:46.239 we're targeting Azure container Apps in the addera space for for V one that people 721 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:52.400 ask for app service, people ask for Azure Kubernetes service. Akash aka s 722 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.199 was was on the map, It might still be on the map, but 723 00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:00.559 Agri Container Apps is the primary like scenario or for B one, now we 724 00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:07.599 have community one of our community members. Remember I mentioned mentioned high quality contributions. 725 00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:15.079 This contributor built a manifest Kubernetes experience. Incredible. Wow, it's called 726 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:19.639 it's called Aspirate, like not, I mean the name is desperate. Yeah, 727 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.840 and I have an in the name, so it's Aspire eight. That's 728 00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:27.679 all very close to Respirate, which is it's still breathing. It's still breathing. 729 00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.840 It is very close to respiate. But it's super cool. I can 730 00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:37.239 take my Aspire app and say, like, give me a Kubernetes and it 731 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.679 spits out all of the stuff and it's all a lot of stuff, all 732 00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:43.840 the manifests, all the yamo, all the it does all the things. 733 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:47.400 How about g r p C g RPC web speaking of James King, Oh 734 00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:52.639 yeah, so there's there's first class support for g r p c's service Discovery 735 00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:58.519 and Aspire. One of the things we aim to not do is recreate anything 736 00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:01.039 that we already have. So say it's been at Core, it's g RPC, 737 00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:07.039 and we weave our way into those subsystems via how they're extended. Yeah, 738 00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:12.000 that's great. It really like it really should feel like I have my 739 00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:16.800 app. I added Aspire and I tweak like two pieces of code, and 740 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:20.960 it's not cold that you wouldn't have done yourself. It's just we did it 741 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:22.639 for you, right, And it's the plumbing you would have done. You 742 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:27.880 would have done this code yourself, you would have called at open telemetry and 743 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:31.760 add these five things. We're just making it available to call like as a 744 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:36.559 as a baseline. Yeah, awesome, very cool. So personally, what's 745 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:38.800 new, What's what's coming up for you? What's in your inbox? What's 746 00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:45.199 next? Good question. I've definitely been looking at the AI space a lot. 747 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:50.840 You could imagine inside Microsoft, there's a lot of interest in overall, 748 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:54.079 a lot of interest, and I've been avoiding AI personally for a very long 749 00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:58.239 time, but just you know, you know it exists. Yeah, you 750 00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:02.280 know there's people doing learning and that stuff, but you you kind of like 751 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:07.239 wait until the way I get involved in stuff is I kind of like keep 752 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:10.960 it on the back burner and I wait for signal to like kind of exceed 753 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:15.320 some threshold. Yeah. Yeah, And it is past that point now where 754 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:21.559 I have to know enough about the space to have conversations to understand how I 755 00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:24.800 can integrate with what we're doing. So for me, for me personally, 756 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:30.039 I've been getting involved in just understanding more the space so I can kind of 757 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:34.079 understand how it affects the next ten years of dot net, Like do we 758 00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.039 have to be a big player in this space? Is it the Python will 759 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:43.000 win it? Ready? Like just those those basic things I've been thinking about. 760 00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:47.800 Just yeah, but definitely shipping aspires is top top top of top of 761 00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:50.800 my list, right yeah, yah, yeah yeah. It doesn't not sound 762 00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:52.360 like a spire is going to leave your life anytime soon. Yeah, right 763 00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:55.639 sure, no, no, and that definitely not. The list of next 764 00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:00.920 is huge, That's correct. Your burn list runfo and you wouldn't you wouldn't 765 00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:07.239 believe. Like historically, when you build a new thing sometimes I mean this 766 00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:10.199 is well known, like people wait until Virgin three to try it out, 767 00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:15.320 like the version version one is not good, And internally it's really hard to 768 00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:20.400 get teams and to adopt things sometimes because you know, they want things that 769 00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:24.840 are tried and true and done, and only if they already have affordances for 770 00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:28.840 it will they like take a dependency on it. HM. Like we're seeing 771 00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:31.000 people want to want to use a spire, like they see the benefit of 772 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:34.280 it and they want to get toe lemetry and they want to get these things. 773 00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.480 So we're going to spend some time also trying to figure out what Aspire 774 00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:43.280 looks like for inside of my inside of the company sure, and hopefully bring 775 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:45.119 some of those learnings like back out. Yeah, that reminds me of a 776 00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:50.159 line from when I one time drinking with Jeff Snover where he said, you 777 00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:53.519 know, when I created PowerShell, they may be a distinguished engineer, but 778 00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:57.880 when I got the whole company to use it, they made me a technical 779 00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:04.480 fellow. That's pretty awesome. That's great, that's what I have to do. 780 00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:10.679 I got it. Well, David, it's been a delight talking to 781 00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:14.480 you for the last hour, and it's always great talking to you. And 782 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.880 Aspire is amazing. What can I say? And I hope everybody will dive 783 00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:23.480 in, check out the documentation and get started write something awesome. Thanks again, 784 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:45.119 all right, and we'll see you next time on dot net rocks. 785 00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:53.960 Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, 786 00:59:54.360 --> 01:00:00.599 a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically New London, 787 01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:06.280 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 788 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:08.679 Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c k S 789 01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:15.280 dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access 790 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:19.719 to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two 791 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.320 thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep 792 01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:27.079 us in business. Now, go write some code, See you next time. 793 01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:30.920 You got jamdavans and