1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,799 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,279 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,440 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:35,320 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to 6 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,880 dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'matechard Campbell, and we are in 7 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,200 our respective hovels. Here me on the East coast of North America. You 8 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,240 on the West coast of North America. Yep, both experiencing some weather. 9 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,240 Oh yeah, I mean it's warmer here, right. There's a little bit 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,000 of snow on the hilltops, which is where it should be, but just 11 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:57,640 a bit stormy. But you're right on the ocean. This is the trade, 12 00:00:57,759 --> 00:01:03,920 right, So we're recording this ring what is really being hyped up as 13 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:10,280 like the worst storm to ever hit America ever? Really? Yeah, because 14 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,120 it's big, Yes, because it's big and tornadoes and like there's multiple fronts 15 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:19,159 and multiple things happening up here in the East coast. We're going to get 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:26,239 rain and strong winds with hurricane watches. So you know, if it was 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,599 colder, it would be a nor'easter, right, And I guess it's still 18 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:32,879 a nor Easter because it's coming out of the northeast. Yeah, nor eastern. 19 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:34,920 Typically you got the warm jet stream coming up from the south, the 20 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,400 southwest, and you got the Arctic blast coming over the Great Lakes and they 21 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:47,200 kind of join up and turn into Snowmageddon. But it's no snow this time. 22 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,879 Well, very little, I guess, but where I am. But 23 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:56,280 anyway, so we're we're hunkering down for a good show here, and thank 24 00:01:56,319 --> 00:02:00,799 god the propane tank is full and the generators working. Yeah, I stalk 25 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:05,079 the wood in case we lose the electrical heat, although heating on wood is 26 00:02:05,159 --> 00:02:07,560 pleasant, you know. But you know what though, if you lose power, 27 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:12,800 Yeah, what would be better then? To, you know, pull 28 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,719 out your battery powered phone or whatever, plug in a charger and listen to 29 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:21,919 some old dot it rock shows there what would be better? Okay, maybe 30 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,159 drinking yourself silly might be better, but I can think of a couple other 31 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:30,280 things. You know, you can do both. That's true. Hey, 32 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,479 David Fowler is here. We're going to be talking about dot net Aspire, 33 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:46,400 but first let's roll crazy music for better no framework awesome. What do you 34 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,159 got? This being showed eighteen hundred and eighty one, which is just unbelievable, 35 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:57,439 isn't it? M palindrome? Yeah exactly. Yeah, I noticed that 36 00:02:57,759 --> 00:03:04,199 the last day of twenty three was one two three one two three one two 37 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,680 three yes, yeah, two three one two three one two three yeah. 38 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,120 All right, So it's eighteen eighty one dot pop dot me and that'll bring 39 00:03:14,199 --> 00:03:21,240 you to leftover Salad dot com to some cartoon versions of personifications of your favorite 40 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,680 programming languages, and I just it just made me crack up. The first 41 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:30,240 one, Python is a hipster smoking a cigar. He's got tattoos and holding 42 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:37,599 a coffee cup, and he says, my formatting is my syntax. Boomer. 43 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:39,759 No, you didn't say boomer, but I can just I can just 44 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:46,319 see you can hear it. Yeah, So I asked you both, David 45 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,280 and Richard, to take a look and tell me your favorite ones. What's 46 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:52,840 your favorite one? Richard? Oh? Well, see Sharp, obviously I 47 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:58,800 have a daughter just like that. Yeah, C sharp is I am nothing 48 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,719 like my father, and she looks C and C plus plus she looks uh 49 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:08,599 off the father. Yeah. So the right right above her is Sea, 50 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,840 which is an old guy with a big gray beard and a balding head. 51 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,480 If you're not allocating memory, you're not living. And then C plus plus 52 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,879 right below it is the same guy, same caption, except now he has 53 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:26,040 borg implants. Right, David, did you find one that tickled you? 54 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,000 I thinkline is my favorite. Yeah, he's awesome. Her ling's very manga, 55 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,600 isn't it is it is? And it's uh. It's this woman with 56 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:40,279 a with a cane and skeletons behind her, and she's saying, destroy one 57 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,199 of my processes and I will only grow stronger. And that is a magic 58 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,720 staff if I've ever seen one. Absolutely, she's wearing like an amulet and 59 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,680 there's like mascara dripping from her from her eyes or whatever that is. I 60 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:00,040 don't know, right, although Haskell is probably like peak. Yeah, the 61 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,319 diagram is exactly what I think of HOSCO programmers, Like above everything this pure 62 00:05:05,399 --> 00:05:11,720 math, everything is just like it is perfect. Yeah. And then go 63 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:17,399 is this giant Google monster, you know, with a Google T shirt just 64 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:23,120 ripped right, bald head and it's a little nerd sitting in front with bang 65 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,279 Eyes. All right, Well anyway, okay, I thought that was fun. 66 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:30,839 It's a good diversion. So Richard, who's talking to us today, 67 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,959 Well, it turns out we haven't had mister Fowler on the show for a 68 00:05:32,959 --> 00:05:36,839 little while, probably a little too long actually, but he's been busy being 69 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:41,360 a distinguish engineer and stuff. So I'm yeah, we're not gonna fuss too 70 00:05:41,439 --> 00:05:45,120 much on that. He gets a get out of jail free card. Well, 71 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,199 and I went back and looked at some of the old shows and so 72 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,360 forth. I'm like, hey, you know, but I found this great 73 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:54,279 comment just by searching on his name. Actually, it's actually a comment. 74 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,639 It's seventy years old. It's from August of twenty sixteen, episode thirteen thirty 75 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,240 five, and when we were talking to Matt Watson, who's the Stacify guy, 76 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,000 about his experiences migrated to dot net Core, of which we blame David 77 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:11,600 for extensively. And so Matthew Decree made this comment admittedly seven years ago, 78 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,160 where he said, having weathered the storm of dot net core and its other 79 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:18,759 names since Beta eight, I can completely understand the frustrations trying to follow all 80 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:23,759 the decisions that have been made. I even gave up during the RC periods. 81 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,160 Yeah, there was some bumpy times getting too V one holy man. 82 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,519 However, the dot Net standard version is much easier to understand if only you 83 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:35,160 have the right resources. Trouble is it seems that a large number of naming 84 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,399 changes. That seems to be that there are many official locations for documentation too, 85 00:06:40,639 --> 00:06:44,720 remember to Life before Learn, none of which you appear to be completed. 86 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,439 I guess a documentation is in preview two. I did manage to and 87 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:54,839 they managed to find an analogy by David Fowler, and he provides a link 88 00:06:56,199 --> 00:07:01,160 to a GitHub doc that's not in his head David that puts in terms any 89 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,879 c sharp should be able to understand with code. With this is clear to 90 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,480 understand the PCL capabilities. You can target the right version based on your capabilities. 91 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,399 It even describes Zamaran libraries in these terms. As a result, it 92 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:15,759 makes it easier to know whether you're making a library that can be run on 93 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,199 mobile or at least in that sense, if it compiles, it can ship. 94 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:23,360 And that's what delighted me about this find right, was it's like, 95 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:26,360 oh, it's David Fowler. So he answered a question with code. Of 96 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:29,759 course, it's great. And the code still run, is still up, 97 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,720 it's still there. I mean, of course the pcls are gone. Let's 98 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:38,560 not talk about that, my god. But yeah, it was such a 99 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,560 cool comment and I probably should have read it years ago because it was one 100 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,160 of those great things about how do you explain stuff to people? Yeah, 101 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:46,759 so, Matthew, thank you so much for your comment. A copy of 102 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:48,920 music Cobe is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 103 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,199 of music Code buy I write a comment on the website dot net rocks dot 104 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,120 com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and if you comment 105 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,519 there and a reading the show, we'll send your copy music Codbear and you 106 00:07:58,519 --> 00:08:00,839 can follow us on Twitter if you want to. But the cool kids are 107 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:05,160 hanging out. I'm mastadon, I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, 108 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:11,040 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadondol social sen Usitute. You might get a 109 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:18,480 mug. Pretty sure you won't, Pretty sure you might. All right, 110 00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:22,160 so let's bring David Fowler back here. He joined Microsoft, of course, 111 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,639 as a developer on the aspenat team in two thousand and eight. Before that, 112 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,839 he did two internships at Microsoft as a tester and developer. He's originally 113 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:33,559 from Barbados and went to college in Florida. And you may have heard of 114 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,320 a couple of things he's been interested in, like I don't know signal R 115 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,759 you know that little thing, lots of other stuff. And now we're going 116 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,840 to be talking to him about Aspire. Hey, David, what's up. 117 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,120 Hey y'all, haven't seen you in a while, haven't hung out for a 118 00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,519 bit. Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, you know kidding, 119 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And again, congratulations on the distinguished engineer. 120 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,159 I don't even know if I know people people know what that even means. 121 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,120 Yeah, I think it means a little bit of great hair. You 122 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,720 had been doing this for a while, Tiny. It's weird when you go 123 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:16,559 from being the youngest person on the team, being the intern, to like 124 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,120 being there for a long time and only beginning to realize how long you've been 125 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,679 there when new people join and they ask you questions and you're like, what, 126 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:28,639 huh, you guys not just normal? If you guys want to hear 127 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,799 Old, I remember when dot net Aspire was a program designed to support the 128 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:37,159 growth and development of developers who are passionate about dot net technology. Oh my 129 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:43,919 gosh, name reuse problems that never happens. What that's not? That's not 130 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:46,399 that's not a thing. So if you go to chat GPT and ask can 131 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,240 you tell me about dot net Aspire, that's what comes out, unless you 132 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:52,320 ask it to go to the web and say no, no, no, 133 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,240 no, I'm talking about the Azure thing net framework thing. Oh my name 134 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:01,919 is super hard. I mean yeah, I remember even trying to name things 135 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,879 like Signal Or, Razor, Blazer. We got some pretty cool names. 136 00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:09,519 I will like, Blazer is a really good name. Yeah. Finally Razors 137 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:16,279 as well, Razor Exactly. It's not Microsoft rendering tech stock for SP three 138 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,120 like that meme that we have at Microsoft were naming things poorly. Blazer and 139 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,240 Razor brought the entire mold. I mean to be clear, it's not a 140 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:39,279 meme just at Microsoft Over Technology Foundation otherwise known as w t F. Yeah, 141 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,200 OKID, it's been a ride. So it was an Ignite that you 142 00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:46,919 decided to roll this thing out. Couldn't wait for build? Huh you were 143 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,799 ready, couldn't wait for build? That's right, that's right, Ignite. 144 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:56,559 What's insandable? Aspire was the team had a lot of ideas rolling in our 145 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,360 brands for like a couple of years now, right, So we did TIE 146 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:05,600 in twenty nineteen, and Tie if you hadn't seen it, it's still there 147 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,000 on GitHub, dot net, slash tight and TIE was our first real attempt 148 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:18,080 at trying to build a micro service tool developer experience for making easy to develop 149 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,320 these kinds of applications that were that were made up of multiple parts of your 150 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,320 app. And the story of TIE is is interesting because what ended up happening 151 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,039 was was twenty nineteen was that year where Kubernetes was like we had been ignoring 152 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,039 it, but me personally had been like, you see it, and it's 153 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,840 important, and it's a thing people are learning, but it you put it 154 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,320 in the back burner and you wait to see if you get more signal. 155 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:45,279 And it kept getting stronger and stronger. Okay, this is the thing that 156 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:48,120 people are using, and this is TIE T y E tie T y e. 157 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,240 Yeah exactly, yep, yeah, yeah. You know. I went 158 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,919 researching dot net Aspire a little deeper from when I saw it ignite, and 159 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,679 the first thing that came to mind is, oh, kind of like as 160 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:09,600 your service fabric, but you know, community driven and yeah, so and 161 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,240 we should correct one thing before Jeff Fritz actually reaches through the wire and strangles 162 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,720 us all. He announced it a dot comp which happened to the same same 163 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:22,919 time as a night but and I was working a night although I did do 164 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,960 a shift at dot net comp, but it was a dot dot com. 165 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:33,039 So please no car box, like, calm down. I very angry right 166 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,360 now. And we were we were actually at Ignite like that same week. 167 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,679 So I did the keynote dot net Comp. We did talks, and then 168 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:46,360 I did the two panels like Aspire and stuff at Ignite in Seattle. So 169 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,720 you did talk about Aspire at Ignite while also having announced it at dot net 170 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:58,320 Comp. Correct, because that's not confusing at all. That comp is a 171 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:05,720 community thing, right that Microsoft gets behind, and you know Ignite is obviously 172 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,519 Microsoft's baby. But from what I remember, there were more people that were 173 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,919 tuned into dot net KOMPF than went to Ignite. It was huge this year, 174 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:20,279 like it was insane this year. Just yeah, quite amazing actually watching 175 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,879 that conference girl from this super small thing that Heavier kind of helped together into 176 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:31,080 what it is today insanely massive conference that people watch real time life, and 177 00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:33,039 it was a ton of fun, like making the keynote recording at this time. 178 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:41,559 I remember last year the keynote is life ye oh my gosh. Yeah, 179 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:45,919 total stressful, like the back to back rehearsals making a keynote like work. 180 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,360 Well yeah, well I know that you are no stranger to live keynote 181 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:56,879 code on the fly, demos that blow people's minds like mine. It's funny. 182 00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:01,879 Life coding to me is like the easy part, right yeah, all 183 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,200 right, so let's just talk about dot net Aspire. What is it? 184 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,480 So tai Tie is the precursor project, right, yeah, yeah, so 185 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,879 Tie is the precursor, but in particular, how does it compare to as 186 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,720 a service fabric, which kind of walks in the same path. Yeah. 187 00:14:16,759 --> 00:14:20,720 So what's funny is when we were building TAI, I felt like we were 188 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:28,039 going to get feedback about Doctor Composed and Thaie service fabric. Kind of surprised 189 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,919 me, to be ho, and it should have, but it surprised me 190 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,639 that people drew the comparison. But it in hindsight it made complete sense because 191 00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:41,360 Microsoft shit and Orchestrator. So during the Great Orchestration Wars of twenty you don't 192 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,080 know fifteen to twenty nineteen. Right, there was Mesos from Apache. There 193 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,679 was like it was Mesos, Doctor Swarm, Kubernetes, Service fabric. Right, 194 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,600 there are these four big ones that people were all using, and there's 195 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:00,279 one called Nomad from I think Hashi Quork, and everyone was kind of trying 196 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:03,559 to see which one to win. I'm not sure if you recall, but 197 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,960 in Azure there was there was a service called ACS, right Adre I think 198 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,360 it was the original AJUC container service, and it supported multiple orchestrators. You 199 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,879 could pick your own and there was no winner at that point. Right, 200 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:22,279 you could pick an orchestrator like and bring your own containers. And then Kubernetes 201 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,039 won. A service fabric is still very much used, Like, yeah, 202 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,960 it's not like it went away and enterprise is Yes, it's still there. 203 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:31,759 Right, why do you think Kubernetes won? But it's also really tied to 204 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:37,039 Azure, isn't it service fabric. I mean it will run on Primo, 205 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,159 we'll run on whatever cloud. But it's really it really shines because it's using 206 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,320 I mean Azure itself is using service fabric, but it is the core of 207 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:50,799 Azure uses service fabric for sure. The Spire is really more like a framework, 208 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,960 isn't it. For the dot net framework that super challenging makes it easy 209 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,519 to put these things together. So there's the difference. We had this really 210 00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:02,960 hard time trying to figure out how to describe it succinctly, like what is 211 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,399 a single sensus that describes what Aspire is because it combines kind of four things 212 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,799 together and it is a framework, but it isn't a framework, So like, 213 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:15,360 don't you don't use the Aspire framework. You use it's been at core 214 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,240 right. One of the challenges was, you know, we built this amazing 215 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:23,039 website, we built this amazing tech over the last like eight years, and 216 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,519 we have all these pieces that you can put together yourself in an application, 217 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:30,080 but you kind of have to know how to do it. How do you 218 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,559 wire up telemetry, how do you wire up wire up poly how do you 219 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,159 wire up health checks? All these things existed in the ecosystem, but putting 220 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:45,679 it together into a package and having it be orchestrated and to end is the 221 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:52,919 thing that aspired it to Aspire added orchestration for local development and give you patterns 222 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,879 in your application for that. And what's funny is the tech isn't new. 223 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,200 It's just we we glued things together that were that were there already, right, 224 00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:07,400 So I looked at the Aspire components. Yeah, and you know, 225 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,359 there are all the components that I would use my own dot net framework, 226 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,880 except they have an Aspire in front of them. So yeah, obviously, 227 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:19,079 so like Aspire dot as your blob service or whatever is as your blob service, 228 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,680 but it's got the glue to hook it into the rest of what Aspire 229 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,559 does. Open telemetry, Yeah, there's tons of them. Open Telemetry Configuration 230 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,839 DII exactly exactly, so, and it's funny. We spent a lot of 231 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:38,640 time trying to figure out if that's valuable, Like is it valuable to have 232 00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:45,880 Glue packages that our version consistently and that glue things together that you would always 233 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,680 need in an application. And we went back and forth with the you know, 234 00:17:49,759 --> 00:17:53,400 the adre ESDIKA team. Should we put this in the SDK, Should 235 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,039 we have a separate component? What's the value in having a separate thing on 236 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,000 a glue package? But it I think based on what we've seen feedback, 237 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,200 why so far people love the convenience, Like you basically grab this package and 238 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,599 you call a method and it wires up like four or five things that you 239 00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:14,079 would have had to do by hand. And I think in isolation it looks 240 00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:17,160 simple, Yeah, I did it once this one time here for this one 241 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:22,200 component. But when it's four or five reds and blogs and all these and 242 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,839 you have distributed tracing on canfig config working, de I working, and it 243 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,880 also configures the pipeline in the right order. Right, I mean that's right. 244 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,559 That's that's the biggest problem. When you have these things. It's like 245 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,279 where does this go? Right? Yeah, exactly, It's like a jigsaw 246 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:44,519 puzzle. Yep. And some of this actually came out of watching there were 247 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:49,039 some internal teams building these higher level libraries on top of lower level SDKs, 248 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,920 and we asked them like, why are you not using the SDK as is? 249 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,240 And they were like, well, if you're building an at skilled cloud 250 00:18:55,279 --> 00:18:59,799 service. Turns out these default configured, configed heatings made to work in any 251 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,599 of it don't work well for the for our services. So we went, 252 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,279 huh, could we take what you've learned from kind of building, you know, 253 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,200 the team's backhand or the bang backhand and package it into a way that 254 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:18,359 just works for our customers by default. So aspires trying to take knowledge from 255 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,279 teams at Microsoft building high skill services and making it available for a third party 256 00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:26,839 as well. That's as well. Nice. Yeah, there's a lot there. 257 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,160 There's a lot to it. But at the end of the day, 258 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,759 it's about that configuration, isn't it. It's about the distributed builders. Instead 259 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,119 of like the regular old app builder you do in aspn net, you use 260 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,720 the Aspire builder and then you can just add reddits at this ad that, 261 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,880 yeah, wherever, and it just figures out how to put that pipeline together. 262 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,640 Correct. One of the the first things we did was we took the 263 00:19:52,839 --> 00:20:00,519 shop example on containers. Was one of like, is that it's funny? 264 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,359 The backstory for shop is kind of incredible. One of our product managers, 265 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,640 i want to say, like seven years ago, said we need to have 266 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,279 this sample and a book with it, and they kind of like on their 267 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,720 own built this thing, right, got vendors built, built this mega samples 268 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,319 out. It's super popular, right, yeah, it never goes away, 269 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:26,240 it never goes it super popular. So we were like, okay, that's 270 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,160 why I said, it's like really I heard I heard you. Well shop 271 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:37,079 Shop got a massive revamp revapp in so the engineering team to cover e shop. 272 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,119 So now the Aspinet core team owns the shop. There's a there's a 273 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,519 new fork. It was a new repo that is kind of like successful to 274 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:49,160 the older one containers and it's a Spire based a Blazer front end, right, 275 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,000 yeah, it got it. It's all a Blazer front end, like 276 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,039 it's all modern, super modern, has a beautiful photo like the the the 277 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,079 diagram is like amazing, and it's all Aspire based. And part of the 278 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,720 proof we were like, okay, we need to be able to take each 279 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:14,480 shop which is built on Doctor Composed and had a lot of manual deployment scripts 280 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,359 for deployment to different parts of Azure like akas Aca, et cetera. And 281 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,480 we said, okay, our test is we need to be able to take 282 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:26,640 at a minimum a thing like each shop and aspiify it and then like be 283 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,640 able to deploy it to Azure and have it just work right Azure or crew 284 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:38,039 nities and have it just work without too much changes. Right. The Doctor 285 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:42,200 composed situation for Aspire and those who don't know, Doctor composed is a way 286 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:49,960 to compose a multi process application locally, but you have to put everything in 287 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,079 containers first. One of the big pain points in building doctor files for dot 288 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:03,119 net projects is you have to copy every single project reference into the container for 289 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,319 container builds. Wow. So if you were to look at the doctor files 290 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:15,000 for the shop, they're like one hundred lines long copying cs projects because Dunnet 291 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:19,000 has solutions and project references and you end up having to copy the transitive closure 292 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:23,559 of all these dependencies just to build containers. Right, So imagine. So 293 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,480 I've seen feedback people saying why would I use Aspire if I have composed And 294 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,039 I think the the what ends up happening there is if you figured out the 295 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:37,119 secret sauce to make it all work, and you have like massage your composed 296 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,880 files to a point where if you're Mark Randall, yeah if if you if 297 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,640 you somehow figured it out, then maybe you're happy with what you have. 298 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,519 But the moment you want to change add move things around, it gets hard 299 00:22:52,519 --> 00:23:00,000 again, right right? Yeah, wait for two exactly. So the when 300 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,200 I mean when we moved each shop to Aspire, when we got enough of 301 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,799 Aspire working to move each op to it, it was like, holy crap, 302 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,200 Like we move and I think there were like four or five composed files 303 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:18,519 on different environments because if yamo, there's no code you can't write if statements. 304 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:23,720 You're you're bound by Like you basically end up having n different files for 305 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,400 any different configurations. Right where in the Inspire world we give you see sharp 306 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:30,759 and you can write it if statement and you can declare variable. So like 307 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,960 you end up in this place where I can just write code to say, 308 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,559 if I'm in development, do X, otherwise do y right, yeah, 309 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:44,680 super nice, super nice dot net visual studio, dot net templates. Yeah, 310 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,359 is that where we would start, Like, I know you need docer 311 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,759 for desktop, but I think it requires currently the preview version of visual Studio, 312 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,880 right, yeah, so there is, there is. It's funny this, 313 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:59,480 This is one of the big things when we were like debating how were 314 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,319 things land first, you can use Aspire from the command line or VS coach 315 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:10,839 is fine, okay, cool, right? Big thing VS big VS does 316 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,160 for you is when you hit F five, it'll auto attach to all your 317 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,279 processes and you can debug. That's one of the big things people ask for 318 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,279 When we did TIE three or four years ago, it was I want to 319 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:26,160 be able to debug a micro service, and I want to hit F five, 320 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,480 and I wanted to launch the under the debugger all of my processes, 321 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:33,920 so I can step across the end to end tracing right the end to end. 322 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:37,240 So typically you do that with the solution properties, right, run multiple 323 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,079 projects exactly the same time, so you don't have to do that, correct, 324 00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:42,240 you don't have to do it. So your Aspire app, it just 325 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:48,519 launches like end projects, containers, processes, and it will attach and you 326 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,759 can just step into it. That's cool. Yeah, so be more of 327 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:56,160 that please, it's super nice. Yeah. We we built this local orchestrator 328 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,920 and I think this is where the service fabric can be comes in because it 329 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,400 has a very similar thing where service fabric has a local orchestrator, but that 330 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:11,000 thing is the real orchestrator. When you deploy to like your environment on prem 331 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,400 or to Azure, you are running that orchestrator. Yeah. Service service fabric 332 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,480 is really it includes the platform, the path. The platform is a service 333 00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:25,160 right, yes, correct, it's the platform right like it really is like 334 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:27,079 you are running service fabric. It is an all in one, like give 335 00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:32,279 me the local dev orchestrator and then when you publish you get that same experience 336 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:37,400 like in the cloud or whatever else. So Aspire Aspire is different different It 337 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,759 differs there it's lightweight's community driven. Did we mention that open source? It 338 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:48,839 is this lightweight orchestrator and actually details wise, it's actually built on the Kubernetes 339 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:55,160 pattern locally, but then when you when you deploy, when you publish, 340 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,960 we create this intermediate format or IL if you must. This manifest. It 341 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,759 is declarative and it kind of describes all of the resources used to build the 342 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:18,440 application locally. And then it's definitely Jason, but this is one of the 343 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,680 big things we were trying to figure out, what do we how do you 344 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:27,799 go from local development to production? Right? Do you do? You do? 345 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,559 You take the orchestrator everywhere you go. So we said, no, 346 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,039 that isn't what we're gonna do. We're gonna spit out this manifest that kind 347 00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:40,920 of describes in this declarative format all the resources and all the types. The 348 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,359 reatises all the caches, environment variables. And then it's up to a separate 349 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,960 tool to glean from that manifest and turn it into concrete resources. So when 350 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,240 you use the Azure Developer c l I you say a cd up, it 351 00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:00,640 actually tells ASPIRER give me your manifest and then it'll convert that manifest into BICEP, 352 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,200 which is the you know, the as code language for azure. Yeah. 353 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,559 Yeah, it's for ARM for as your resource man exactly, for for 354 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:14,279 ARM exactly. It's nicer ARM than ARM Jason. But it's writing ARM under 355 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:15,799 the hood for you, just so you know, like there's no voodoo here. 356 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:18,799 It is, but there's no matches. But if you've gotten tired of 357 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:23,640 staring at Jason, like is more language y correct, I'm more tired of 358 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,759 staring at Yamel. Honestly. One of the big things that we were we 359 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,400 were trying to have as a as a selling point for a spier was like, 360 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,039 are you tired of looking at Yamo your silver Hansleman must have been involved 361 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:41,279 in that because he hates it just as much as I do, honestly. 362 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,759 Like when you enter the cloud Nati space, one of the big things I 363 00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:49,960 think people just accept is like there is YAMO and can figure everywhere you are 364 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:57,119 doing bits together by editing canfig files and passing in IP addresses and host and 365 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,720 trying to figure out how things all like do this right glue together? No, 366 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:06,039 get hub told me again, YAML is my number two language and I'm 367 00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:11,319 like, Steph, I bleue a lot of stuff together, Like that's just 368 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,240 reality for me. Yeah, it is. I think one of the big 369 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:22,400 things Aspire will enable is building an ecosystem of packages that hide some of the 370 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,000 YAML that the ammal isn't there is that you didn't have to type it. 371 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:32,400 Yes, Rank God, that's the important part. You call rettis and you 372 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:38,839 can give Intel a sense for configuring the port configuring like the uife reddis and 373 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,640 you can build like you actually compose things, right. I think one of 374 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,720 the big things that Polumi did, like they put that Plumi figured out which 375 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,279 they knew. Right. With code, you can build abstractions and packages and 376 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,079 modules, and you can you can abstract end things by by having like one 377 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,200 interface that does end things under covers yep, the Yamo bass can fig models 378 00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:06,119 don't let you do that. You are stuck with stream replacements. You were 379 00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:11,079 like, how do I how do I have Let's say you want to have 380 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,599 a base platform for your team, So my team is going to use Grafana 381 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,119 and low key, and you name the top five CNC things, right, 382 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,599 how do you give all of your team a template that says you guys should 383 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,720 use this base template for all of your services. Like it's difficult, right, 384 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:33,519 I wonder what the cartoon representation of Yamo would be. Let's just think 385 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:37,319 about something to do with like it's duplication. So it's something to do with 386 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,880 duplicating stuff everywhere, maybe like Lucille ball trying to sort the strawberries as they 387 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,079 come off, or the chocolate chocolate. Yeah. Yeah, So that was 388 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:53,519 one of our big drivers, like could be and it was a big discussion 389 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:57,079 on the team, like what do we use as this file format? Do 390 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,119 we have a solution, do we try to change the solution file because the 391 00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:07,920 solution is kind of like the Uber project for multiple projects, but we wanted 392 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,720 something code based. It was like you put together your application by saying, 393 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:17,440 give me an application, let me add projects to it, containers to it, 394 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,880 executables to it. And that gives you enough of a primitive for others 395 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,960 to kind of say, my company is going to use my platform. You 396 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,000 know I can do builder dot add my company's platform composition. Right, things 397 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:33,480 we learned I don't know, fifty years ago from programming languages that can picktiles 398 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:41,240 don't give you nonm ranting. Yeah, I know, it's so great that 399 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:44,319 we're on the same team. Hey, guys, let's just take a break 400 00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:51,680 real quick for these very important messages and we'll be right back. And we're 401 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:53,880 back. It's dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. It's my friend Richard 402 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,039 Campbell. He get out there with the beavers and the otters and the bears, 403 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,400 most of the otters these days. And we're talking to David Fowler for 404 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:07,720 Microsoft about dot net Aspire and how absolutely freaking cool it is and how much 405 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:12,720 I love Jason, and I know, you know, it also strikes me 406 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:17,759 that this might be the thing that gets you know, I developed a dot 407 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,799 a developer that hasn't really gotten into the micro services container space yet, and 408 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,759 said, am I ready now? Because it's pretty intimidating, you know, 409 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,839 I got to this project works, you want me to do? What to 410 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,319 it? You know exactly? So I just I just wonder, coming from 411 00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:38,000 an existing application that just hasn't been broken down in that way at all, 412 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,319 it's just a happy ball of mud. Great question, and then we do 413 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,079 that. Yeah, can Aspire help me get started it? Can it? 414 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:52,240 One of the big things we tempted to do was Aspire has kind of these 415 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:59,480 four main pieces like orchestration, components, telemetry. You can kind of pull 416 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,200 in what you want want to pull in for your projects, so you can 417 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:06,799 adopt at your own pace. One of the big things we learned and personally 418 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,880 personally that I learned doing dot net Core in the first place, was people 419 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,759 love migration when they can opt into doing it incrementally, right, Yeah, 420 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:21,799 no dead drops please. We just had a great show with with with Jimmy 421 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:25,920 Bogart where he talked about migrating a framework app over the core, you know, 422 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:30,359 to starting you got went to six and then up from there and just 423 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,480 that we reverse processes things so you can just replace one piece at a time. 424 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:39,279 It's always done on two platforms. And but no dead drops except that 425 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:46,680 one day there's nothing left running in framework anymore except authentication. That was last 426 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,359 off session super heard off in session. But yeah, so that that was 427 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,960 one of our main driving factors. Like you add the Aspire orchard to your 428 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,720 main solution and you just get Aspire. You launched that project, it'll launch 429 00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:07,599 your big application, your big ball of mud, and you get the dashboard, 430 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,279 you get telemetry like you can you can kind of ease your way into 431 00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:15,079 getting these benefits and features, You get container published, you get deployed to 432 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:22,440 different environments, you watch the percentage of mud go down every day. That's 433 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,160 the whole. Right. We have big aspirations. I'll tell you. While 434 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,400 we were doing the Aspire prototype, I was trying to project, like a 435 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,839 couple of years out, what this could look like in the in the long 436 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,400 run, And there were ideas floating around and just about being able to build 437 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,799 your app as a monolith, the holy grail. Right you to build your 438 00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:45,160 app. You think about app components, you think about parts of your app, 439 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,599 and I think laser is the first incantation of seeing this from for a 440 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,359 client framework. Yes, I mean and next jess and spelt kittting those things. 441 00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:58,559 Let me carve off a set of my app as a component, and 442 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:01,599 then let me name it. And then I'm going to turn that universe into 443 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,960 a deployable asset. So it doesn't matter if I start as one project or 444 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,800 like five projects. I can isolate my code, and I can isolate my 445 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:17,159 app into different deployable units. Yes, and I feel as though Aspire is 446 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,320 kind of inching in that direction. We started off with this very basic like 447 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400 I can add a project here, I can add a container here. You 448 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,599 can imagine that being like, let me add a chunk of code, and 449 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,760 that chunk of code becomes its own deployable unit. Right. So I think 450 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,960 I feel like that is the way to get people into a mode where I 451 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,400 can build my application without feeling guilty that I did it wrong, right, 452 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,639 and I can shift and change and refractor like as I go as I grow, 453 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,480 right, Because who would want to start with micro services? Like when 454 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:55,159 you don't have the complexity like it, it's asking for pain before you have 455 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,760 that desire, right, And if you can have someone be pretty active when 456 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,199 they start off, start off, and then as they scale up, they 457 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:06,840 don't have to rewrite everything from scratch, like, I think that is the 458 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:09,920 holy girl we've been looking for for the last Like I don't know how many 459 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:15,159 years we've been doing software right, many many many many many years. Yeah, 460 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,840 Yeah, it's been a while. Good stuff. It's good stuff. 461 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,000 So we were talking about the open source finess of Aspire. So in terms 462 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:30,679 of those community contributions, what are some of the areas in dot net Aspire 463 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,480 that could benefit the most from open source development. So one of the big 464 00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,719 parts of Aspire that we knew, we knew would be once it controversial. 465 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,599 It was a point of discussion for the team itself was components. Components are 466 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:52,920 accurated. One of the big things we were trying to learn from watching other 467 00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:57,400 players in the space spring boot being the Java equipment, the biggest probably the 468 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,760 biggest well known thing in the club needs space for a spring Boot. Right. 469 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,320 One of the things they have is this thing called spring Cloud, which 470 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,159 is essentially a set of components that are curated. So when you are looking 471 00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:14,159 for something like a critis or a database driver or any client library for any 472 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,079 open source piece of software, they had an answer, right. And it 473 00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:22,679 wasn't that we didn't have an answer. It was that they showed you this 474 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,920 list that had all the answers. So we were like, you know, 475 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,719 maybe there's something to this list. Let's try to do a curation thing where 476 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,960 all the aspiring components are basically this first class list that we create and third 477 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,679 parties can build their own. But if you want to be in the curated 478 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,480 list, you need to you have to be a verified Aspire component, so 479 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:44,800 you have to come through us, right. That was the You have to 480 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,679 pay your eight dollars a month and get that badge. It's free. It's 481 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,760 free, but you have to pass. You have to We don't really have 482 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:59,280 a really well defined council ar review process as yet, but the intent is, 483 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,360 like you if you were in the a Spark component list, you can 484 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:07,320 be sure like the quality is high. It has these these minimum features by 485 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,320 default, et cetera, et cetera. Right, so it is a new 486 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,199 GET package, but it's one where there's like more checks and there's more things 487 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,920 in place, and there's more more things that we did to make sure it 488 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,719 passes some midbar of feature work. Right. Yeah. The community as soon 489 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,960 as we went by open source, I could not believe how fast the community 490 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:32,440 added more components like we had in the very beginning seql server obviously, like 491 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:39,559 that's what we ship SQL server, seql server postgrass Rettis and the community just 492 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,400 like through out a ton of amazing things. And the prs were of such 493 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,280 high quality it was incredible. We got my cql from the from the my 494 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,599 sql author for dot net. We got after PR, we got Cosmos. 495 00:37:53,679 --> 00:38:00,440 It was just like dB so I yeah, Mango dB like and we didn't 496 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,960 even have a document on how to write components. People just figured out how 497 00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:10,159 to write figure it out. But so we're even there yet. It normally, 498 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:15,320 when I've worked on open source for a long time, and the maturity 499 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,559 in the in the pull request that we got for Aspire, we're shocking, 500 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,480 like shocking because these weren't small bug fixes. These weren't like, you know, 501 00:38:27,199 --> 00:38:30,239 changing the semi colon hair are cleaning up comments. This was here's a 502 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,079 whole new feature that works end to end, right, it blew me away. 503 00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:37,360 You mentioned open telemetry, Yeah, so how does that? How did 504 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:42,679 I mean that? That requires some knowledge of how to use open telemetry obviously, 505 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,599 yeah, but how does the how does that work together with Aspire? 506 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,719 So one of the things we get to do since it was twenty twenty three 507 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,880 and now we're in twenty twenty four. One of the benefits of coming this 508 00:38:55,039 --> 00:39:00,400 lit to like these spaces are things become more stand so we don't have to 509 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,199 invent our own protocol, we don't have to invent our own tools, we 510 00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:07,800 don't have to invent our own libraries. Turns out, over the last five 511 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:14,519 or so years, open telemetry has been pretty much being standardized in the industry. 512 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:19,239 So the benefit of that is we in Aspire, we said, how 513 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,840 do we get telemetry by default. One of the things we realized was if 514 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:30,000 you think about the F five experience for a single project, the debugger and 515 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:32,480 VS and like how amazing it is and the experience you get when you step 516 00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:37,840 through can see variables, what is that experience for distributed systems? Right? 517 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:45,119 And James James King who did just donet. He went away for a week 518 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,920 one week, right, and he built this trace UI in the dashboard. 519 00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:53,840 And the first demo we had where we showed someone here's kind of our fate 520 00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:58,920 shop and here's the end to end trace, Like, people just sat there 521 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,760 because on F five you had this default end to entrace that went through service 522 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,079 A, service B and a database call and it was just on by default. 523 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,960 And all the work we had been doing with open telemetry, with like 524 00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:15,320 our libraries, with the EF team, with all these open source partners, 525 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,639 they had all this stuff like in the tools, it was just really hard 526 00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:24,920 to see without wearing up ten different containers and diamo. And now on your 527 00:40:25,079 --> 00:40:30,199 default Aspire F five it's just there, right as though we turned the light 528 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,239 on. Someone said, we did all this work and it was invisible, 529 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,400 And now with this one dashboard view. All the work we did over the 530 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,079 last five years is like there in your face. Is there a danger in 531 00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:46,960 not knowing how these things work under the hood and just running the default application 532 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:54,639 the projects and just publishing it. Absolutely so. One of the first Reddit 533 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,079 threads on the Aspire stuff when it first came out, you can see the 534 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:02,519 the tug of war developers had where this is amazing. It made me so 535 00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:07,440 productive, where some other people are like, oh, you know, this 536 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:14,360 is an astraction layer. I need to know what's happening. I think it's 537 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:20,320 kind of like like like anything else, developers will have to know certain things, 538 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,719 and I think part of my job and our job as designers of a 539 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:30,320 framework is to hide stuff but don't make it obscure. Right. So one 540 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,719 of the things we do is when you create an Aspire project. The reason 541 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,239 open telemetry works is because there's coding your app that says at open telemetry like, 542 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,679 it's there. We didn't hide it from you. It's not magic, 543 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:49,119 it's right there. Configure with the comment and it says add the the OTLP 544 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,960 exporter, which just says if you have an environment variable to call this thing 545 00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:58,400 like it's passed in from the Aspire host and it works. What I've learned 546 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,440 over the years is if developers can draw lines from coll to how things work 547 00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:07,599 in their brain, then it becomes less magic and more Oh, I get 548 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:09,360 how that works. I get how this this goes there, how that gets 549 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,599 sent here, et cetera, et cetera. It might be helpful to have 550 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,039 an AI that could explain things when you don't understand what's going on. If 551 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:19,960 only we had that. Yeah, if only there was an AI that way, 552 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,519 that would be strange. That's not a real thing. You guys are 553 00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:28,400 crazy, but you know, like, Okay, I get how to do 554 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,280 it and it works, But what's going on here? Why does it work? 555 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,360 Right? I love that. I love that. Right now, I 556 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,360 think we're at the phase of what's funny is that discussion? This discussion would 557 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,719 have been super strange if we had it like four years ago. Yeah, 558 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,400 yeah, it would have been It would have been a joke, right, 559 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,239 It would have been like, it's sort of like, what problem we try 560 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,679 to solve here? Like, what are you talking about? I know we're 561 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,920 here in twenty twenty four saying that statement, and it is reasonable, it's 562 00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:00,679 right. Yeah, I could to the AI like describing how works under the 563 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:04,960 cover. Is how how like when you create a container and a process held 564 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920 in neworking works between them, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, look at 565 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,039 my app and draw me a app. Right, that's not crazy, No, 566 00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:16,519 it's not crazy. Yeah, we are. We are interesting towards that. 567 00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:20,519 It's an ability to see these pieces. But the other I mean, 568 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:24,679 part of what you're doing here is you're creating better delineations between pieces of functionality, 569 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,639 right, yeah, That's always been the problem is it was very it's 570 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,639 very hard to tell what is one piece live and another piece live? And 571 00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:36,400 how do they talk to each other? Like that whole manifest part has never 572 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:42,039 been well described. You really have to read it and dig at it and 573 00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:45,400 then watch it running like it takes a while to have confidence. This is 574 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,320 what this actually means. I've been programming I believe it or not, a 575 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,960 Windows Forms app in the last month for a client. Oh man, it's 576 00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:59,960 all like scientific technical analysis kind of stuff. And this this guy who hired 577 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:04,440 me is a knows VB, knows how to read VB, but he didn't 578 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,559 understand link and so I had some link statements in there that were pretty complex, 579 00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:10,920 and he's like, what the heck is that? And so I just 580 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,199 took the link statement pasted into GPT and says, hey, can you explode 581 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:20,960 this into four loops for me and comment it? And it did and I 582 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,400 was like, here, this is what it's doing. And I tried it, 583 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,800 you know, and it get me the same result. And so I 584 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,840 just left it in the code as commented rights as a way for somebody who 585 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,360 doesn't understand how to read link statements. That's great idea. It's very very 586 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,239 cool, very powerful stuff. Or here's another thing that you can do the 587 00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:43,719 other way. You have this convoluted for loop that somebody's written and you say, 588 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,079 hey, can you optimize this code for me? And it will? 589 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,199 Will it write a link statement? I will tell you, it'll write link 590 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,320 statements, it'll use parallel computing, like you know, it's pretty freaking amazing. 591 00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:59,519 This is a space that there is active interests on our team looking at 592 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,320 like how do we take advantage of the AI to do this kind of stuff? 593 00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:07,559 Yeah, because it really does begin to feel like the things that you 594 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,159 wanted to do before in your brand, you know, possible, Like what 595 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,000 if we could have Stephen Toby in a box? Right? Yeah? What 596 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,519 if I could just have him on my shoulder when I'm coating, like the 597 00:45:17,519 --> 00:45:21,000 toll model, and there's a more optimal way to do that. You know, 598 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:28,679 let me just optimize that for you. Start with the system prompt. 599 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:35,079 You are, Stephen Taub, How would you do this exactly? That's what 600 00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:38,880 you want? Yeah, yeah, But we digress a little bit. This 601 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,440 is a conversation we had with Mad's Targeted back in the day where I said, 602 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,199 like, okay, you're twelve versions of C sharp in like what and 603 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,840 pretty much the code I wrote in C sharp three still runs just fine, 604 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,119 So why would I use the new features? He says, You know, 605 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,239 we're really going to have to focus on the tooling to help drive you towards 606 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,960 the new language constructs. So it is that how do you hint? How 607 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,960 do you present a given chunk of code that runs It's say, you know, 608 00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:09,920 there's a terser way or cleaner way or faster way to do that. 609 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:16,960 Yeah, yeah, it's tricky. Like languages, the changes have I think 610 00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:22,079 personally have been quite amazing, and I love the I love hew C sharp 611 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:28,599 mixed things that were arduous and like more verbose, less verbose, and like 612 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:37,039 succinct. I've seen a lot of teeth gnashing about being able to do things 613 00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:40,039 in a very similar way with different syntax. The way I see it as 614 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,559 the syntax gets cleaner over time, Right, I can do things more more 615 00:46:45,679 --> 00:46:50,679 expressively and easier. But it can be seen also as like you've added more 616 00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:53,039 ways to do the same thing, Right. I really think that's the thing. 617 00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:58,519 We we see as like an even split. Like I'll paste something on 618 00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:02,880 Twitter and on X and people will be like, what is this new syntax? 619 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,639 I don't understand it, and I'm like, this is super nice to 620 00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,679 have. I love the simplification. Simplication. Yeah, that's how I think 621 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,639 we see it, like implicit usings. We simplify the syntax. Yeah, 622 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,719 yeah, yeah, we' usings yeah, collection expressions. Yeah, it's beautiful, 623 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,920 beautiful. So I want to get back to something that Richard brought up 624 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:29,280 before the break, which was taking an existing dot net application and what did 625 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:36,800 you say, aspiifying it as asper. So what challenges do you foresee in 626 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,679 adopting dot aspire in existing projects and how can you address them? How can 627 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:45,719 we address them? So the big the biggest broad block thus far has been 628 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,000 the fact that the Aspire Aspire has been targeting and up So when we started 629 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:58,519 off, we were like, let's just say it, and immediately you know, 630 00:47:58,599 --> 00:48:01,159 people use the product and they want to use it because I think once 631 00:48:01,199 --> 00:48:07,800 you figure out how easy it is to use and how how you can opt 632 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,559 into different parts of it incrementally, then I think people begin to say, 633 00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:13,639 Okay, this isn't such a big hammer. I don't have to change all 634 00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:15,119 my stuff. I can add it to all of my stuff, Like, 635 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,719 I'm not not worried, right, we will have to see what ends up 636 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,159 happening there. I think that's one of the big blockers today, Like you 637 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,800 have to be undone at it for it to work, right. So it's 638 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:30,000 really great applications, but for or or if you're going to upgrade to eight, 639 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:34,719 then you'll have Aspire support in your in your apps, right. But 640 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,400 most people are still on earlier versions of dot net let's face it. Yeah, 641 00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:42,800 but but you know, if they're on five, then they're unsupported. 642 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,239 If they're on six, they're supported, right, But I mean, I 643 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,920 know people are spread across the spectrum. We we see like that feedback sometimes. 644 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:57,199 So if you still have a startup dot cs in your project, you 645 00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:00,000 you might be a red neck. Oh my god, do you want to 646 00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:05,159 crazy a crazy thing? So when we shipped dot net one core one zero, 647 00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:08,880 right, we had gotten rid of the product Jason, my beloved product 648 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:15,760 Jason that we killed. And there was a team inside Microsoft who had deployed 649 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:22,440 an app on DNX and the engineer that had deployed it left and this engineer, 650 00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:25,599 the engineer that had that took over pay me. I was like, 651 00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:29,119 can you please get some support. I don't know how to move this thing. 652 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:30,960 I don't know what to do with it. We built a tool to 653 00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:36,360 help migrate. So like that's what he did over time, but like something 654 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,760 broke and then he was like I can't find the dots anymore because the dots 655 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,360 are now for like the cs fraud and the Jason follow is like gone. 656 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,039 And it was yeah, those were tough times, yeah right, crazy? 657 00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:57,400 Where was being AI? Yeah? Huh huh. Let's talk about the roadmap 658 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,119 for dot net Aspire in any coming features or integrations that you think are particularly 659 00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:07,239 exciting. Yesterday, so let's say we came back from vacation. We shipp 660 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:14,159 preview to just before the breaking for for winter, for before we all left 661 00:50:14,159 --> 00:50:17,280 for holidays. What's funny about that one. We a set of us went 662 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,800 on vacation and we were trying to ship like days before going on break. 663 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,440 This is about it. They do not ship software days before you to break. 664 00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:29,519 You're going to wrack your holiday, like you're just asking for it. 665 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,880 So it took us a couple more days to get it out. So some 666 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,920 of us were like every night I was watching the chats trying to see if 667 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,400 we were like any closer we got out the door. Preview two is what 668 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,159 I thought Preview one should have been. How do we had more time? 669 00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:49,719 Preview two is like, yeah, I can try it now. And we 670 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,760 took all of the top feedback and we addressed a bunch of issues. So 671 00:50:53,159 --> 00:50:59,719 people were asking, how would I orchestra and application where I have multiple repositories 672 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,199 right that have my source code? What do I do right? And their 673 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,000 options that are like I can clone them all locally and orchestra and orchestrate that 674 00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:12,480 way, I can put it in a container. So we basically give you 675 00:51:12,519 --> 00:51:15,960 the options now to do all the things. You can reference projects not in 676 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,360 your solution. You can reference containers, you can reference the process and they 677 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,360 all work the same way. That that was one of the big things we 678 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,159 had to solve because everyone saw it and thought, do I have to put 679 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,519 everything in one solution? And then to fight that, we have to have 680 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:36,320 enough features so you can experiment with how you liilt your source code, how 681 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,960 you lailt your projects, et cetera. Right, Yeah, I imagine you 682 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,960 see a lot of variations on that, like more than any given person. 683 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,960 Yeah, just because you guys have such a broad view of the different ways 684 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:52,599 that the studio gets used, correct and people. The hardest part. If 685 00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:57,159 you look at the Aspire docs, it says that the stack is opinionated. 686 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,519 H The team struggles, like we struggle with having strong opinions because we are 687 00:52:04,519 --> 00:52:10,239 built in to be framework designers and we basically build pluggable systems. Yeah right, 688 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,599 Yeah, So you have this dynamic between being inclusive. Lots of people 689 00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:16,719 can use this the way they want to and opinionate it, so it's not 690 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,960 trying to be everything everything exactly, and so it's really nothing exactly. You 691 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,639 got it. Another way to say opinionated is convention over configuration, which last 692 00:52:25,639 --> 00:52:30,960 time I looked, was a really good idea. It is I think some 693 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:37,159 of the Aspire things we said no to early on may come back in the 694 00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:42,079 future and people may ask for things like there's a lot of there's a lot 695 00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:45,320 of requests and I shouldn't be surprised there are a lot of requests to run 696 00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:50,599 the orchestrator like locally on prem like on prem. People want to replace their 697 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:55,400 local on prem deployments with I and I guess I'll win now service with Aspire. 698 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,559 And we had no intention, like zero intention of having this thing live 699 00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:05,920 past development, right, So that is N five locally, it's not it's 700 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,760 not run time exactly. You five locally and you can debug and see the 701 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:14,719 dashboard. But then when you publish, you're targeting something. You you target 702 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:22,039 kubrunettes, you target Azure, you target Amazon's cloud like you you run locally 703 00:53:22,119 --> 00:53:28,559 and you target a cloud environment to a space. There's a lot of feedback 704 00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:32,559 from people, and I think the feeling is you can help me make might 705 00:53:32,639 --> 00:53:37,360 out more modern if you give me a way to kind of like take the 706 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:42,360 ASPA experience, put it onto my local on prem environment, and then I 707 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,760 can go to the cloud. So that's an interesting like thing that I think 708 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,800 came up that we didn't foresee, Like I did not think that was gonna 709 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,519 be a thing. Do you want to go down the run time of path 710 00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:55,159 because man adds a lot of weight. Yeah, just to use Kaberunetes. 711 00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:00,159 Honestly, it might just be if you're on a local machine and you want 712 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:07,719 orchestration Kubernetes, and yeah, exactly, you guys don't want to put exactly 713 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,400 exactly you got it. We already had too many as it is, right, 714 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:15,320 and and Kubernetes now has that that natural monopoly weight that the ecosystems growing 715 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:20,079 around it. It has Helm and all these other tools right that make our 716 00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:24,119 lives everywhere. Yeah, and everything runs it. So your every nautical metaphor 717 00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:30,280 you can possibly think the same. The same way you made us write less 718 00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:36,239 Yamo, you can make us can figure less Kubernetes exactly. So that's what 719 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,760 we're gonna do. So we have this. So on the road map is 720 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:46,239 we're targeting Azure container Apps in the addera space for for V one that people 721 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:52,400 ask for app service, people ask for Azure Kubernetes service. Akash aka s 722 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,199 was was on the map, It might still be on the map, but 723 00:54:55,679 --> 00:55:00,559 Agri Container Apps is the primary like scenario or for B one, now we 724 00:55:00,639 --> 00:55:07,599 have community one of our community members. Remember I mentioned mentioned high quality contributions. 725 00:55:08,119 --> 00:55:15,079 This contributor built a manifest Kubernetes experience. Incredible. Wow, it's called 726 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,639 it's called Aspirate, like not, I mean the name is desperate. Yeah, 727 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,840 and I have an in the name, so it's Aspire eight. That's 728 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,679 all very close to Respirate, which is it's still breathing. It's still breathing. 729 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,840 It is very close to respiate. But it's super cool. I can 730 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:37,239 take my Aspire app and say, like, give me a Kubernetes and it 731 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,679 spits out all of the stuff and it's all a lot of stuff, all 732 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,840 the manifests, all the yamo, all the it does all the things. 733 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,400 How about g r p C g RPC web speaking of James King, Oh 734 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,639 yeah, so there's there's first class support for g r p c's service Discovery 735 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:58,519 and Aspire. One of the things we aim to not do is recreate anything 736 00:55:58,519 --> 00:56:01,039 that we already have. So say it's been at Core, it's g RPC, 737 00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:07,039 and we weave our way into those subsystems via how they're extended. Yeah, 738 00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:12,000 that's great. It really like it really should feel like I have my 739 00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:16,800 app. I added Aspire and I tweak like two pieces of code, and 740 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,960 it's not cold that you wouldn't have done yourself. It's just we did it 741 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,639 for you, right, And it's the plumbing you would have done. You 742 00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:27,880 would have done this code yourself, you would have called at open telemetry and 743 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,760 add these five things. We're just making it available to call like as a 744 00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,559 as a baseline. Yeah, awesome, very cool. So personally, what's 745 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,800 new, What's what's coming up for you? What's in your inbox? What's 746 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:45,199 next? Good question. I've definitely been looking at the AI space a lot. 747 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,840 You could imagine inside Microsoft, there's a lot of interest in overall, 748 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,079 a lot of interest, and I've been avoiding AI personally for a very long 749 00:56:54,119 --> 00:56:58,239 time, but just you know, you know it exists. Yeah, you 750 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,280 know there's people doing learning and that stuff, but you you kind of like 751 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,239 wait until the way I get involved in stuff is I kind of like keep 752 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,960 it on the back burner and I wait for signal to like kind of exceed 753 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,320 some threshold. Yeah. Yeah, And it is past that point now where 754 00:57:16,039 --> 00:57:21,559 I have to know enough about the space to have conversations to understand how I 755 00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:24,800 can integrate with what we're doing. So for me, for me personally, 756 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:30,039 I've been getting involved in just understanding more the space so I can kind of 757 00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:34,079 understand how it affects the next ten years of dot net, Like do we 758 00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:37,039 have to be a big player in this space? Is it the Python will 759 00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:43,000 win it? Ready? Like just those those basic things I've been thinking about. 760 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,800 Just yeah, but definitely shipping aspires is top top top of top of 761 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,800 my list, right yeah, yah, yeah yeah. It doesn't not sound 762 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,360 like a spire is going to leave your life anytime soon. Yeah, right 763 00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:55,639 sure, no, no, and that definitely not. The list of next 764 00:57:55,679 --> 00:58:00,920 is huge, That's correct. Your burn list runfo and you wouldn't you wouldn't 765 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:07,239 believe. Like historically, when you build a new thing sometimes I mean this 766 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,199 is well known, like people wait until Virgin three to try it out, 767 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,320 like the version version one is not good, And internally it's really hard to 768 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:20,400 get teams and to adopt things sometimes because you know, they want things that 769 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,840 are tried and true and done, and only if they already have affordances for 770 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,840 it will they like take a dependency on it. HM. Like we're seeing 771 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,000 people want to want to use a spire, like they see the benefit of 772 00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:34,280 it and they want to get toe lemetry and they want to get these things. 773 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,480 So we're going to spend some time also trying to figure out what Aspire 774 00:58:37,559 --> 00:58:43,280 looks like for inside of my inside of the company sure, and hopefully bring 775 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,119 some of those learnings like back out. Yeah, that reminds me of a 776 00:58:45,159 --> 00:58:50,159 line from when I one time drinking with Jeff Snover where he said, you 777 00:58:50,199 --> 00:58:53,519 know, when I created PowerShell, they may be a distinguished engineer, but 778 00:58:53,559 --> 00:58:57,880 when I got the whole company to use it, they made me a technical 779 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:04,480 fellow. That's pretty awesome. That's great, that's what I have to do. 780 00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:10,679 I got it. Well, David, it's been a delight talking to 781 00:59:10,719 --> 00:59:14,480 you for the last hour, and it's always great talking to you. And 782 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,880 Aspire is amazing. What can I say? And I hope everybody will dive 783 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:23,480 in, check out the documentation and get started write something awesome. Thanks again, 784 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:45,119 all right, and we'll see you next time on dot net rocks. 785 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,960 Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, 786 00:59:54,360 --> 01:00:00,599 a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically New London, 787 01:00:00,639 --> 01:00:06,280 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 788 01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,679 Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c k S 789 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:15,280 dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access 790 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,719 to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two 791 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,320 thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep 792 01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:27,079 us in business. Now, go write some code, See you next time. 793 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,920 You got jamdavans and