You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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Episode number three thirty nine. Cinema is a matter of what's in the
frame and what's out. Now, more than ever, we need to talk
to each other, to listen to each other and understand how we see the
world, and cinema is the best medium for doing this. Martin Scorsese broadcasting
from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's
your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof
Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's
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you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over
to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. My
next guest is a film and videographer from Ottawa, Canada. He has been
in the business for years making different wildlife videos and he and I are going
to talk a lot about videography, doing interviews even like this. You know
what happens when somebody, you know, you know, a project and somebody
says, hey, I can get my kid to make this for cheaper.
Why am I paying you ten thousand dollars or five thousand dollars. I can
get my kid to do it with an iPhone. We talk all about that
stuff, which happens a lot nowadays. Which is one of the reasons why
I don't do it anymore, because it just got it just got such to
be a paying the ass, because if you kid can do it, why
the hell you even talking to me? And I tell a little bit of
some stories in this too, about some of the things that I've encountered,
and we're gonna talk about Black Box, which is what my next guest decided
to make, and it's a really really cool venture. So without further ado,
Pat McGowan, I was always a kid that was interested in a lot
of different things, and I think I was pretty visual, but I was
more on the audio side. I was a musician. I was interested in
the music business. I worked as a musician for a long time. But
I also had my scientific side, so I ended up doing like pre meds
and biology and psychology at college. And I was a photographer when I was
a kid. So it's just kind of this mesh mash mixed up kid didn't
know what I wanted to do, but I had an opportunity when I was
at college to join a rock band and do some studio work. And when
I walked into the actual recording studio, it was a sixteen track recording studio
in Toronto, and I'll never forget the feeling that I was home. So
I was really I was a studio guy, and that led me into film
as a composer and as an audio post guy, and then led me into
more as a director. And you know, it's kind of the best of
all world for me. So, but you know, the people, all
those very interests, they usually end up making the most interesting people. Well,
I'm not going to say that. Maybe you can at the end of
the interview. Let's see what you say then, all right, all right,
now, now now the pressure's on that. Now it has to be
interesting. So basically, when you were going to college, you know,
and you were just doing all these different things, that kind of sounds like
my route too, because you know, when I was going to college,
I was doing ten thousand different things, but I was always the one thing
I was steady was screenwriting and stuff like that. And I till I was
ready to graduate, I was like, I don't want to do this one
thing anymore, which was business. I was like, I don't want to
go in that anymore. I'm about to get a degree in it. So
it's like, what the hell I hear you, man. Absolutely, We're
really lucky to do what we do, you know, because we get to
be involved in so many different things and so many different aspects of life.
We get to travel, we get to meet a lot of people, you
know. In my corporate and government and film production life, I was on
a new subject matter every week or two, you know, and you had
to become an instant expert, and you had to be able to hold your
own, especially if you were interviewing people like you do. And you know,
it's just to be a wonderful ride. Yeah, interviewing people, I
you know, just as a side of this podcast has really helped me in
other ways too. It's only made me like a better conversationalist. But it's
just you know, you can you can pretty much not talk to anybody.
I mean I was always pretty good before at networking, but I think this
is maybe from like good to like great, because now you can just you
have the confidence just to go up and strike a conversation about anything. Yeah,
for sure, man, You just have to ask two or three questions
and and know people people love to talk about themselves and what they do,
and if you just get out of their way, normally. Normally you'll get
some goal. Yeah, very very true. That's why I tend to let
people just sort of they let the guests take of the take over the conversation,
because a lot of times they might my guess will say, oh my
god, I just was talking and talking and talking. And I said,
well, that's a good thing because people could because I'm here every week.
You know, I go. The guest is only here for the one time,
so I might as well, you know, showcase them. Well,
once you get me going, you're not going to shut me up that easily.
I always say, feel free to talk is much as you want,
and I won't edit it and make it look bad or anything. All right,
sounds good to me. Man. So, Pat, when you're going
out there and you're doing like freelance video videography work and stuff like that,
and you're doing commercial work, et cetera, what are some of the things
that you've learned or some of the tips that you could like give because I
you know, I had a friend of mine, for instance, he always
would go into like different stores, like like mom and pop stores and pizza
places and stuff, and you'd always you know, say to the owner,
hey, this is a really cool place. You know, this is a
really cool blah blah blah. And he always would try to, you know,
different locations. He always would keep in the back of his mind in
case you ever had to film there for whatever reason. You know, have
you ever, you know, do you have any tips like that about how
you you know, maybe got you know, maybe met different people in different
places. Yeah, no question about that, especially because of some of the
work that I do, and a lot of the work that I ended up
doing had to do with filming, you know, b roll on stock footage.
So you're always on the lookout for friendly people that can give you access.
You're always on the lookout for great locations that you can return to you
later. So yeah, you just really keep your eyes peeled and you know,
figure it out and if you end up doing, you know, a
TV series or whatever, you kind of got you know. In my case,
I'm Canadian and I've got Canada mapped. I've been all over the country.
I've been all in every single province. I've been in every single city,
and we know a lot of people and you know the thing is is
that we're all kind of connected now. So once you make those relationships and
you understand the mapping, then it's so much easier to go back and the
next time you're there, you kind of know where you are. And yeah,
so you just kind of keep your eyes peeled and develop the relationships as
you move along. Yeah, building relationships. That is the key part of
this, my friend, building relationships. It's all about people, no question,
and it's getting more and more about people every day. In spite of
the fact that we've been I think we've been kind of trained with social media
and so on that we can, you know, live in our hobbit holes
and still be connected, which is true, but actually sitting down and talking
to people and getting to know them and being with them is the only way
to really connect. And I think we have an opportunity now, you know,
to do that more and more on a lobal level. Also, we
kind of put it all together and say we've got all these platforms now,
then well when you go there and just the relationships to the world is getting
smaller and smaller and smaller. And it's not a virtual world. It's a
virtual and a real world and you have to live in both. Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, I'm guilty of that. Too, where I
try to just well I did, I consciously made that decision. You know,
I don't know about you, Pat, but I got burned down from
going to networking events. I mean I got burned out. I used to
be mister networking event too, and eventually I stopped because I said, you
know what, Eventually you start to realize, you know, half these people
are never going to they don't they're not going to make anything because they really
don't want to make anything. They want to go somewhere and be seen and
take photos and stuff like that. And your goals aren't the same thing as
them, you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't really know how
to respond to that, Dave, because I do a fair bit of networking
and I usually end up meeting at least one or two people at you know,
whatever the event is where you end up actually getting a good forged relationship.
But you know, I think you're right. I think a lot of
people are just going to party a drink or whatever their thing is, and
you know, you kind of have to be able to wead that out.
We did a network event networking event in Toronto about a month ago, and
yeah, there were a lot of people there that were just for the there
for the beer, but a number of people I ended up developing, you
know, some really good contacts with and relationships. We'll be right back after
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, because,
as we'll get into a little bit later, we are actually trying to grow
a global movement. So that means that we we have to find the people
that are interested in having that connection and then reaching out and having that global
network so that you know, creators like us actually have a safer place to
operate. So yeah, I know what you mean though, like some of
the networking events that there's a lot of posing and posturing and a lot of
bullshit, but you do, you know, there's usually some pretty good people
at most of these things. Yeah, And I always feel free to always
disagree with me, you know, most people do. It's always and it's
always good too to hear. Here are two different opinions on the podcast,
you know, and so let's just say, you know, going to these
networking events, you know, whether they're in Canada like you are, or
they're in the you know, United States seket like I am, wherever they
might be listening to this, you know, what are some of the tips
that you have for networking? You know, just like going out there and
meeting people and and some of the things that you maybe even like warning signs
that you kind of see if people to stay away from. Well, I
think the main thing is just to be open and honest and transparent. And
you know, again, you know, it comes down to some people skills
too. Being able to walk up to somebody and say, hey, my
name is, what's your name? What do you do? Tell me?
More, be able to ask those three or four questions that are going to
get them comfortable so that they can you know, actually participate in a conversation
with you, or if they're cagey, you know, you kind of break
down their defenses a little bit and you know, so that you can actually
have a one on one conversation. Uh. The thing I always watch for
is eye contact. Actually, if people are not going to engage you with
eye contact, then it's going to be tough for work. Or if they're
kind of you know, looking around to see if there's a better person to
talk to. Maybe they think you're not worth it or you've got nothing for
them. I also really kind of watch out for people that don't ask questions
back because that means that they're not engaged in the conversation. And if you
got a prod and prod and prod, I say, just cut it off,
say thanks a lot, and move on, go talk to somebody else.
And you know what, I like that two PAC because I think that
works for you know, even you know, virtual meetings, like you know,
if you meet somebody online, maybe it's either Facebook or something or the
Twitter or whatever. I you know, I found that people who just kind
of you have to keep prodding them, whether it be like hey, this
or the you know about this or that, or where you know they they
don't want to ask you about what you do or whatever. Those are the
generally the people where you're kind of like, all right, they're not in
this meeting, and you know what they're what is waste each other's time at
this point. Yeah, I would totally agree with that. But again,
you know, like we got kind of get back to this whole idea of
what we do professionally too. And I interview a lot of people. I
mean I've actually, if I had to count the interviews I've done, I've
done thousands in my career. And you know, I kind of conduct myself
as if I'm doing an interview. I would like to ask a lot of
questions. So if I'm trying to engage somebody, even on Facebook, they
all ask them what do you do? You know, what's your specialty,
what are you up to, what kind of projects are you working on?
What's pissing you off? You know, like what barriers do you have in
your in your life right now that you know you could do better with?
And I find that, you know, I'd say I'd say that probably seven
out of ten people are willing to have the conversation once they realize. The
big thing these days is no one wants to be sold to, so they're
always they're always on a guard about you know, what do you want from
me? Right? So if you can kind of break through that, it's
it's easier to get a more meaningful discussion going. And yeah, hey man,
I'm not gonna lie sometimes I am selling. Sometimes I do want you
to get involved in what we're doing. But if you go right in with
that pitch hard at the beginning, your chances are going to go down.
So you know, you've got to really get get human, you know,
have a human conversation, be sincere, be honest, and like I said,
I think seven out of ten people will generally engage and the other three
well, you know what, so be it, no big deal, no
problem, or maybe they'll come back later, who knows. So you know,
you mentioned doing thousands of thousands of interviews, you know, so let's
just you know, go back to that and how you sort of got started
doing that, you know, back to to actually going around and just you
know, talking to all these different people. So how did that whole journey
start? Were you just going around interviewing all these people? Well, I
usually interview people when I'm on assignment. So if we're producing a video where
we need to collect interviews or we're doing a doc, that's my job.
So I'm the guy that sits in the chair and directs the shoot and does
the interviewing. And you know, I've learned a whole lot doing it,
and I learned a lot about psychology, a lot about people. But yeah,
so it all starts with a project. And you know, typically I
love to go in cold. I don't do a lot of research when I
do interviews. I want to explore the information along the path of the interview
rather than walking in with thirty nine questions and just running through the questions.
We want to find out what people are passionate about, so you've got to
read their body language. Like interviewing is a really interesting thing. You're usually
working at at least two levels, and usual and probably three. So you've
got your physical situation where you've got to engage with body language that allows the
person to feel a comfortable but be also then you want them to know that
you're interested in. Body language has an awful lot to do with that.
You can turn people off so easily with the wrong body language, so you've
got to be really well versed in how that works. And you also have
to be able to read body language to know where you're going to go with
this thing. The other level you're working at is at the intellectual level,
so you're gonna you know, I always say, you know when I'm recording,
when I'm doing interviews, my brain is actually recording the interview so that
I know where all the contextual points are. I know where the pickups and
drop offs are. I know how to correct people, I know how to
redirect them. So as I'm sitting there, you know, nodding and smiling
and using body language. My brain is just furiously processing what they're saying.
So you have to listen and actually process it and embed it and store it
so that later in the interview you can come back and make a make a
what I call a contextual link to what was said before. And that is
often when you get the best stuff. And then you've got the other the
other level, which is the conversation level, because now I've got to respond
in a conversational way that's actually reasonably intelligent. And you know, unless people
know that I care about what they're saying, I understand what they're saying,
and I know enough about what they're saying to actually have them feel validated and
engaged. So it's a really really interesting process and you and you end up
exhausted at the end of them. You know, some interviews you've just burned
so much brain energy that I mean, you need it. You need it
to go for lunch, like right away. So it's an amazing process actually,
and you know a lot of people, you know, I see some
young folks coming out, and the biggest caution that I would say is don't
just run the questions right don't just run the questions, get yourself into that
conversation, be interested in what people are saying, and you'd be amazed at
what you're going to get. And one tip I always use with a lot
of the people I interview is I don't respond to them as soon as they
stop talking, because sometimes if you leave a five second pregnant pause in the
conversation, they're going to say what they really need, right because a lot
of people get very nervous and they're vetting what they're saying. And you know,
we've had people in the chair crying because they couldn't do the interview because
they were so nervous. But if you just let them sit, you know,
just let it go and don't stop the camera and don't cut, sometimes
that's when the best stuff happens. I was giving you the pregnant pause there,
But you know it's a friend of mine once gave me this piece of
advice and he said, he said to me that whenever he's negotiating, he
always puts in that pregnant pause on purpose because he always says, the first
person that talks loses. You know what, As on the business side,
if you talk too much, you lose the deal. That's all there is
to it. You got to learn how to sit. Yeah, and he's
a fellow Canadian too, bat oh yeah, where's he from. I believe
he's from Toronto, Okay, because that's that's where all the sharks live in
Canada. All he does is talk about the housing market there. But that's
a whole nother podcast. Uh especially now, Yeah, he all he does
is talk about the housing market and and he just like about the insanity of
it. But but again, that's that's a whole other whole thing. Well,
you know, maybe it's interesting, maybe some of he's accusing some some
people of like Chinese millionaires and billionaires. We'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor, and now back to the show of using these houses as
sort of like a money laundering scam. I don't know if that's sure or
not, but you know, hey, you know, anything's possible. Well,
you know, man, I think that happens in London, New York,
Los Angeles, Seattle, Vancouver, certainly West Coast. Definitely there's a
lot of Chinese money on the move. I don't know if it's dirty money
or not. I have no opinion about that. But I know, you
know, Vancouver. Vancouver is ridiculous, and it's actually more ridiculous than Toronto.
But there's a big correction about to happen, so I wouldn't be buying
any high priced real estate in Toronto just right now, I think I walk
away from that. Yeah, it's I heard about that too, about that
correction. But you know, just to get you know, back to to
what we're talking about with interviewing, you know, I wanted to ask you
a question and I'll and i'll you know, I'll tell you my funny story.
First, I wanted to ask you about one of the worst interviews you've
ever done, because again, we always learn more from our mistakes than from
our successes. And so so what happened was, when I was working in
Higher ed they had asked me, so I I to do this. This
probably is the worst one, but it's the funniest one. So they asked
me to do this, this interview segment with the girls volleyball team, and
the coach who you know, who was a part time coach, showed up
late and he has all these questions just hands, you know, scribbled on
a piece of paper. It's all, you know, cut up. He
just ripped it out of a notebook, and he's asking these questions, Well,
these girls are talking about stuff that I could never ever use in a
school setting. They're talking about doing drugs, they're talking about there, they're
yeah, they're they're they're trash talking their teammates. They're doing this and that,
and and the coach was reading the same questions teach each girl because we
told him to. And and then he would be, you know, asking
a couple of different questions here and there. And finally when he asked me,
he could if I put this together, and I said, you don't
want me to use any of that. I said, you know except for
one girl. And those girls were you know, do you know, trash
talking girls, shit talking this and that. And he yeah, I guess,
well you can just put something together. So I put this thing together
and and bat, let me tell you, his face dropped and he goes,
he goes, you're right, I could never use any of this.
He goes, it was it was, It was. It was so hilarious
because what I would do is I kind of gave it like the MTV styalve
editing where I was like, here you go here's what they think of this,
this and this, and it was like, you know, they they
thought, oh, what do you think of this thing? Oh it's terrible,
it sucks, blah blah. I'm like, you can't use any of
that, you can't have to school promote this. But it was just it
was just hilarious just because of how ridiculous it was so beat I want to
throw the question to you. You know what, what was one of the
worst, you know times you've had, you know, doing an interview segment.
Well, I was telling you a few minutes ago, I had this
this poor woman who was so upset that she couldn't perform. So, you
know, this is one of the things that we tell people, do not
try to memorize what you're going to say in the interview, like don't take
our quest Like a lot of a lot of the institutional or government types or
you know, bureaucratic types, they want you to send them the questions in
advance so they can prepare so you know, then they end up writing,
you know, writing ben hur so that they can answer these questions. And
it's just ridiculous. They come in with you know, like pages and pages
and pages and just again, I'm going you can't possibly, like, there's
no way you're going to be able to do that. And this lady that
I was working with, and it was a very serious subject matter, and
she was like the CEO, and she was brilliant, really intelligent person,
very you know, beautiful woman, clearly very professional. But the boy,
she was nervous and I could tell as soon as she walked in the room
it was going to be trouble. So we got her in the chair.
Wasn't the studio set, you know, everything's controlled environment, And we got
her in the chair and she could not just could not do it, could
not do it. And I think she had like a tiny little nervous breakdown.
Anyways, we had her in the chair for two hours because she wouldn't
quit either, her cap telling her, you know, you need to take
a break, you know, don't worry about it, and we were being
really really kind, you know, and accommodating, and she was in this
chair for two hours and I thought she was just gonna snap. It was.
It was a horrible experience. It was. It was painful actually for
everybody in the room, even at the camera guy and producer was in the
room. Her colleagues were in the room, and everybody just felt so bad.
So that's you know, I know, that's not like you know,
talking to a bunch of teenage girls trash talking each other to really have that
experience, but you know, that was probably the worst one. It's just
terrible when you get people who are so upset that they're judging themselves so harshly
when all they have to do is just talk like we're having coffee, right,
And I've got like a zillion techniques that I use to get people to
settle down and to relax and stop being so freaked out, but sometimes they
just don't work. You know, they just don't work. And you know,
some of the worst ones we do are actually when the client, you
know, tells us, well, we don't have travel budget to send you
to locations, so you know, we're going to hire a camera guy locally
and can you direct by skype? And those are really really hard to do
because you don't have the personal connection, you can't do eye contact properly,
and if you get somebody who's tough to deal with in that situation, you
know, sometimes the client's grinding on you because well, why couldn't you get
it. What's so hard about this? And I going, well, you
know, I guess you haven't done several thousand interviews, so it's going to
be hard for me to explain this to you. But they sucked, So
what do you want me to do? I can't force these people to give
a good interview basically, So yeah, I mean there's a lot of pressure
and uh, you know, there's money on the line and everything. So
my attitude is always the same, and I always ask myself this question.
In all production situations, it's basically like who's going to die here? Like
what are the stakes? Okay, so nobody's gonna die. Everybody relax.
Let's just let's just do our jobs. And we're do our good jobs.
We're all professional. Let's just get this done. But you know, we
don't need stress and pressure in production situations. It's just it's just a completely
ridiculous waste of time when you do that. Yes, I could not agree
more man, And I've been a part of both of both productions like that
where it's been you know, sort of more loose, and then others where
it was just you know, you walk on set and you could just feel
the tension you know where the director doesn't like the DP, the DV doesn't
like the producer, the producers of the director, and you're just kind of
like, wow, you know, who the hell needs this stuff? It's
just bullshit. Yeah, So, you know, I came to a point
in my career where I just said, I'm not doing bullshit anymore. I'm
not I'm just not doing it. It's not worth it. So now I
hunt situations with my startup black Box, where it's a no bullshit deal.
And even when I do some freelance work or I'm doing contract work, I
just I try to work it so that there's there's no bullshit and it's all
about the work and doing good work and you know, making sure they have
a pleasant experience and you end up with a good product and that's the bottom
line, because there's just no need for that. Yeah, you know,
that's so true. And I also like that phrase. You know, there's
no more bullshit products but projects. I'm sorry. And was there a point,
by the way, Pat where you you know, what was it?
Was there a project in particular that finally to set you over the edge.
Well, you know that's a big question. So the answer is yes,
and No, I had a huge project that we had won that was a
museum job, and it was a million dollar contract. It was a big,
big contract, and there were a number of players involved, design agency
out of the States, and a lot of curators and a lot of experts,
and it was a very very difficult project. The product at the end
was absolutely wonderful, but there were so many human imposed turf defending types of
interactions during the process that it really became a very unpleasant project and it could
have been, you know, really rewarding to do. So it was just
basically people being people, you know, defending their turf and you know,
whatever was going on. And really it was during that project that I said
to myself, Okay, I've been in this business a long time. I've
had a great career. I think I'm ready to move away from doing this
type of work because the bureaucracy and the layers of crap were sucked the soul
right out of your chest and then you couldn't even be creative anymore because they
took all the fun out of it. And you know, I don't want
to be cynical or anything, but there's a lot of that going on these
days. Right where. It's just there's so much bureaucracy, there's so much
political correctness, there's so much business pressure that honestly a lot of these jobs
just aren't fun to do anymore. We'll be right back after a word from
our sponsor, and now back to the show. Yes, and that's what
happened to me too when I got burned out, not even just doing freelance
work, but like other other work in general, you know, and just
you know, here's another story for you. I when I was doing freelance
work, somebody asked me to come do this very so. They said,
it's just an interview. They said, it's just an interview. We're going
over all this stuff, et cetera, et cetera. And I get there
and it's a completely it's a whole one eighty from what they told me it
was going to be. Instead, it's a company. It was just a
competition about who could use like who could you know, use this soul the
fastest or whatever. And it was like this whole sort of convention. And
I said to the guy, I said, wait a minute, this is
completely different than what you said it was going to be. And I mean
he was like, well, for any you know, always the kicker was
too bad. I showed up there and he had no idea who I was,
and I said, aren't you and I won't use his name, and
I said aren't you blank and he goes yeah, and I said, well,
Dave, I the videographer. He goes videographer for what? And I
said, well, you're doing some interview thing today or something, and he
goes, I don't know what you're talking about. So I go outside.
I look at the business and I'm like, wait, yeah, this is
it. This is the place. And I call my friend who had introduced
us, and she comes out and she goes, oh, yeah, that's
him. And I go back in there and I look at him and I
say, hey, you know, I'm Dave. We've been talking back and
forth like a month now. He goes, oh yeah, I forgot you
were coming. And I'm like, Jesus Christ, this is And it just
went downhill from there. Pat Well, you know what, you know,
I don't want to get on my on a negative soapbox or anything, because
you know, things have changed, that's for sure. But this is just
an example of how I think. I think the perceptions of what we do
in the industry have changed a lot over the past five years, let's say,
so, I think the perception of you know, how professional we are,
how well trained and experienced we are. I think some people people think
that we are a bit of a commodity, right, you know, it's
just a video guy. Oh yeah, whatever, right, but they still
want it done perfectly, but they don't even know what that entails. So
you know, like I said, I don't want to get down on it
too much because I'm going to sound like a grumpy old man. But you
know, things have changed, and the perception of what a professional does in
our industry and who they are has has changed a lot. And you know,
quite frankly, I think in a lot of instances, we're seeing a
lot of bad work being done, you know, in that context, and
the clients don't even know that it's bad work anymore because the wrong person on
their team is actually handling it. So, you know, we got this
weird thing going on right now where you know it's and it's always been that
way. I mean, we always had what we call the bottom feeders in
the industry that just shitty work, but everyone know who they were, and
so on and they you know, they got hired on certain gigs, but
usually not. And those of us that were kind of working the higher end
of the market, we knew, we knew who was who. But these
days it's like, you know, if I didn't tell a client, if
I have a client telling me one more time in the meeting, well,
you know, you guys are just super overprist because you know, actually,
my son is taking film studies and he's going to do it for us for
a hundred bucks. And you know, I just got hired to have those
meetings, honestly, And these days, you know, the question, the
one question I get asked by my clients in meetings is can you do it
cheaper? Consistently? So it's time to say, actually, no, I
can't do it cheaper. And if you want done cheaper, you can get
it done by somebody else, no problem. But you know, at the
same time, the work is a little more scarce than it was let's say
ten years ago, and the prices of the higher priced jobs are actually coming
down. So we're looking at a situation where our market is becoming uncommoditized.
As I say, you know, we are less of a custom valued service
than we were, we're now expected to do work for the same rate that
we're working for hey man, twenty years ago. Think about it. The
rates haven't changed really very much, if at all, and now they're going
down again for the contract work that we do in video and film. So
so what point, you know, again, when I read your bio,
you know, you mentioned that you know, you realize you woke up one
day and you realize you have been disrupted, you know, And I think
that's a big part of it, because what you said there is with with
you know, hey, I'm just going to have my undo it. I
actually, let me tell you, I've had other people say that too,
and you know, or I'm going to have my son edit this or whatever
else, and you know, it's like, hey, we're pe to you
if you think that you know your son can do it. You know,
it's just one of those things. But so, at what point did you
then create you know, black Box? Well, it's I created black Box
where I didn't create it three years ago. I dated it three years ago.
So I I was sitting in my boardroom realizing that I had built,
you know, a beautiful company. I had forty employees, I had offices
in two cities, had a really great team, and I realized that the
market had changed. So I realized a couple of things. First of all,
we were involved in some broadcast work here in Canada, and I mean,
you're familiar with the cutting the cord phenomenon, But what happens in markets
like Canada is when the cord gets cut, the cable fees that people were
paying are no longer allocated for broadcast production by the broadcasters because that's how they
get their money. And then in our market, the Canadian government has you
know, some fun matching programs and so on, tax credits that are all
predicated on the broadcasters coming to the table. Well, the broadcasters stopped coming
to the table because they were making less money because people were cutting the cord
and why were they cutting the cord to go and watch content from digital platforms
like Netflix and YouTube and what have you. So that's the first thing that
happened. The second thing that happened at the same time is that technology became
much more readily available with the advent of DSLR camera technology, So all of
a sudden, the cost of acquiring equipment went down. If that's what you
were going to buy. You know, it wasn't high gear. It was
low end gear, but it was low in gear that was doing good looking
product. And the third thing that happened is we had a lot of young
people coming into the market. And people like to beat up on millennials.
Personally, I don't think that's right. I know a lot of millennials and
I really like these guys. But unfortunately they came into a market where they
could tool themselves and were competent enough because they were doing some good work.
I mean when I say that the sun could do it, the sun could
really do it, but the sun should have been getting paid five hundred bucks
a day rather than one hundred That's my point. So the commodification happened on
the perceived value of the work, right from the client saying, well,
my kid can do it for one hundred bucks rather than you doing it for
five hundred bucks or whatever, or a thousand, you know, which is
what we used to get. So now we've got these three factors, we've
got a glut of labor willing to work at lower pricing. And why would
millennials work at lower pricing, Well, a lot of them were either living
in apartments or the roommates. So they don't have car payments, they don't
have college funds to build. They're not building for retirement. You know,
they're young and because you used see you know there were buring entry coming into
the market. If you were going to be a video production company owner,
you better have the ability to acquire capital, so you could buy high end
cameras for one hundred thousand dollars each headed systems cost of fortune. You had
to have an edit bay, you had a voiceover booth, you had to
have a small studio. Well all that's gone now, like people kids are
at these millennials. Sorry again I don't like the term, but younger people,
you know, they're editing at Starbucks, or they're forming into collectives where
they're sharing small office spaces. And that's okay with that because they can cut
the video on a MacBook or a surface or whatever, and they can shoot
it on a DSLR and they're not using a twenty thousand dollars sachular tripod anymore.
They're using one thousand dollars you know, Vinton or whatever, or a
Matt Frauto. So everything, it wasn't just that one thing commodified and disrupted.
Everything changed at the same time. And then you had a lot of
institutional clients like government clients or you know businesses, even bigger businesses, smaller
businesses bringing somebody in house, so they would hire a young person to do
it in house. And why well, because the young person had the camera,
had the edit bay in their pocket, had control over and these kids
are quite well trained, and they're multi faceted, like they can shoot an
edit, they know how to do audio. They're not terrible at it,
they're good at it. So you know, this disruption had to do with
that whole change from you know, a team of three or four people doing
work will be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
the show, to a team of one or two doing work that didn't have
an office, probably weren't insured, you know what I mean, didn't have
staff. So all of this happened at the same time. So here I
am sitting there, a twenty five year veteran of the business, and yeah,
we did get to disrupted. We got disrupted at three levels we have
had. In nineteen or twenty fifteen, we had four I believe four broadcast
projects canceled because at whatever, there were three different broadcasters involved relaying people off.
So you know, they were just canceling a series, and we had
four series canceled. It was a huge amount of money involved. So yeah,
we got hit pretty hard. So I'm sitting in my boardroom with my
wife and I'm like, Okay, we're not making money. Who's making money?
What's going on here? So we sat and we did a bunch of
research and we concluded that there were two ends of the spectrum that were making
money. There was the YouTube crowd and that was prior to the YouTube apocalypse
that happened a year or so ago, and that was before they changed the
monetization. But that's another problem that we can talk about. But there were
a lot of YouTubers who were making money and we found you know, we
just said, let's go look at the top ten YouTubers and see who's making
money and see what they're making. And you know, as a kind of
a trained experienced filmmaker, it was pretty shocking because I hadn't paid much attention
to YouTube. Stupid me, and you kind of look at it, going,
wow, this stuff is popular. Why, Well, you know,
we kind of figured with a couple of things. It was probably because a
four year old sitting in the back of mommy's suv hitting the iPad again and
again and again, and people were making millions of dollars. There is this
one channel we found called Disney Collector, and this is an Hispanic woman with
really nice blame any fingernails, in a really sweet sounding voice, who shows
you how to use Plato right, Disney character Plato shit. And the woman
has now got two hundred and fifty million views on one of her videos or
more, and she's purported to make twelve million dollars a year or more from
her YouTube box. Okay, so that's just a why an eye opener.
And then I looked at the other end of the spectrum with Netflix, and
Netflix had not even started to I mean, I don't even think Orange's New
Black had been produced twenty fifteen. Yeah, maybe it was. I guess
they're going into season four at any rates. And we started thinking, Okay,
well, we've got this distribution platform that's actually starting to create content.
So what they're doing is they're aggregating the rights to intellectual property at the top
of their organization, and producers who used to make shows, own shows,
and license shows to broadcasters are not going to be able to do that for
very long. So it made me kind of think. You know, the
term that I believe came to me at the time was user generated content.
So you've got YouTubers making user generated content, and you've got Netflix making user
generated content, but we're creators and all of that. Well, in the
YouTube case, you've got one or two people making this stuff. There aren't
very many teams of trained people doing it, although there's lots of cool stuff
going on in YouTube right now. But in the in the Netflix example,
basically creators were turned into workers. So and that's not bad when the rates
are good and everything, but as I understand it, you know, the
rates are dropping, and the people that I know in markets where you know,
big platforms are making a lot of content, the rates are static,
they're still installed, and even studio owners and equipment rental houses are getting really
really pushed down a rate. So basically, you know, everybody's making money
except Netflix, and people who want a gig in this industry, you know,
they're really just looking for work and they're being forced to take longer hour
days for less money and I'm not saying that's happening everywhere. Lots of people
are gonna say, hey man, that's not true where I am or whatever,
but it is true where a lot of people are. Because through our
platform, I hear these people, I know them, and they want a
better deal. So I decided to create a platform that was all about creators
being able to do user generated content alone or in groups and gain access to
global markets, not have to sell themselves as workers, but convert to being
owned of the content that they make, and take advantage of all the licensing
fees, long tail revenue, or residuals, they're all the terms apply uh
and do better in their lives. And we want to do that on a
global context where every creator all over the world actually has the same access because
they have the same access to technology and tools, but they don't have the
same access to markets and business systems. So what we designed as a platform
that is really has really captured and automated all of the things that creators need
in order to work together to make content, to co own the content,
and to share in the revenue streams of it develop through these new digital platforms.
So we think it's really revolutionary. So it's uh, you know,
you touched on YouTube and you know I had friends who were creators who saw
their their you know, their monestization, cut down some channels hell, or
even gotten into trouble with all the new rules. You know. I have
another friend who's just getting back into it and he has one of the top
YouTube channels ever, which is crazy. But just going back to black Box,
you know, it's you know, it's allowing. So basically it's it's
cutting out the middleman essentially, you know what I mean. It's you can
actually you know, go on there and actually don't have to worry about you
know, selling. You don't trying to say you basically could have the movement.
Yeah, but I think that can help you understand a little bit.
But we're not cutting anybody out because they're already cut out. Okay. Being
a producer is a much harder gain because you have actually been turned into a
worker again. Now there are people who are who are developing product as producers
and selling it to Netflix or licensing to Netlex and that hasn't died, but
a lot of that business has gone away. So what's happened is like people
that used to be producers, like actual producers have become service producers. So
they're getting paid, you know, by whoever their client is and they could
be ABC, NBC, it could be Hulu, it could be Netflix,
could be anybody. They're getting paid to manufacture the project for those companies,
not with them, right, So that's really changed. So everybody all the
way down the line is now a worker, and that would be fine as
long as as as the you know, the disruption wasn't happening where the rates
were dropping. So, I mean, it's bad enough that the business model
changed to the point where people, you know, couldn't own their own content,
but the rates are going down. So what does that mean for the
future, Well, you know, it means we're going to have a commodified
labor market. Look at what happened in visual effects, right. Visual effects.
It used to go to LA and you go down by Santa Monica Pier
and there are all these nice two three story buildings that were full of visual
effects asses. Well they're all gone now. And there's a saying in Hollywood
amongst certain executive producers that goes like this, if you haven't put a VFX
companies a company out of business, on your film. You're not doing your
job right. So what's happening with VFX companies? I mean when you go
and see blockbuster movies, now you used to see like ILM would be in
there or whoever. Right, Well, now you see look at the end
credits. There are hundreds and hundreds of people who employ in the VFX game,
but they're working for fifty companies, right, So instead of seeing ILM
crew of two hundred people on the end credit that, now you're seeing fifty
companies with ten to fifteen people. So what's happened there is that the VFX
companies have been divided and conquered into smaller and smaller units. So now the
producers, the big guys can actually go in and hammer them on price a
little more effectively because they're playing them all against each other. And I know
this sounds horribly cynical, and you know, if there's a Netflix Exact listening,
you know, Hey, I'm just coming from the creator perspective right where
I think that there's a better deal for creators. The creators should and can
now have the ability to have their piece of the pie and to have better
lives as a result of that, and to be able to do the work
they do with a lot more freedom. You know, I created black Box
to have more freedom for me and for my creator colleagues because we are special
people. You know. I call it the creator class actually, and so
the creator class for me are people who are talented, generous, kind,
hard working, resourceful, honest people. We'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And I would say
ninety nine percent of the people that I know there are creators fall into those
categories. So that means we're going to get beat up as business people,
plain and simple. So what we do is kind of give We create a
platform that's a safe haven that allows creators to actually not worry about all that
business stuff because just like so many other businesses, we want to automate a
lot of it so that there's not a lot of backroom deals going on there.
The sharks can't play. You know. Basically, we've been a product
and we move it through a market, just like any other industry. Look
at the auto manufacturing industry, right They've got this think called the supply chain.
And the supply chain means that all these parts are created by all these
suppliers and brought together the assembly plant. And it has to be it has
to be all coordinated properly. Well, you know what make movies no different
than building a car. It's a supply chain. You had to bring all
these resources together. They had to happen at the right time. Budgets have
to be respected, and and then you deliver to the customer. So what
I've done is created a platform that allows creators to be part of the supply
chain and to own the end product as they're moving along. So it's a
really it's a really big shift in terms of an economic reality. We liken
it dave to a return to the guild system. Uh, you know prior
to the Industrial Revolution, where guilds actually had these inherent protections in place.
You know, if you were building a cathedral and you need a stonework done,
you went to the Stonemasons. And if you needed a bunch of pews
done and woodwork done in the church, you went to the carpenter's Guild.
And so what we are is a creator's guild, and we're global, and
we're digital, and we are going to change the face of the industry.
And I know exactly where you're coming from by the way, about the VX.
About the VX situation, I actually have a friend, I've actually had
friends who've worked in the industry, and they were describing, you know,
pretty much what you just described as well. But you know, black box
looks awesome. I'm all in favor of anything that allows you know, creators,
good creators, to you know, to share their stuff and to actually
get seen because you know, like I've said before this podcast, the idea
of just uploading something to YouTube now and saying, hey, it'll go viral
is like a one in a million shot, and you can't rest anything on
that. That's not a business plan for sure. Man. Well, you
know, that's just that standard fragmentation. But we're working within a global context
and we're working within a digital platform context. Nobody's done this before, so
no one really knows the rules. But we do know that there is an
awful lot of money being aggregated at the top of these multinational corporations. And
then you have to bring in the idea that they are some of them are
publicly traded corporations, so that whole dynamic is very different too. So who
end up who ends up getting caught in Avice are the individual creators because in
fact, as these companies blew apart, you know, big company with forty
people, right, and that company is pretty much gone now. So the
protections that were afforded to the workers within that relationship they had with me as
their boss, they're on their own now, right. So what we're doing
is we're actually saying, look, we don't want to aggregate these people back
into a company again, but we want to have a platform that performs those
functions for them, that allows them to have a little more predictability and security
in their life. So, and I should tell you that we analyzed the
market and we said, look, ultimately, we want black boxers, we
call them black boxers, to be able to do the work they love to
do. So if they are they want to work on feature films and they're
a gaffer, we want them and they love being a gaffer, Who want
them to be able to be a gaffer on a great feature film on regular
work. And if they're an actress, who want them to be an actress.
And if they're a musician, we want them to be a composer.
We want them to be able to do what they love to do. So
what we allow them to do is come together into groups of like minded creators
and make the project they want to make. That is that has a lot
more creative freedom for everybody. Now, not a lot of not most,
sorry, not most. A lot of people they just want the gig and
they want to get paid, and they want to go home, and they
want to be safe, and they want to make money, and they want
to take care of their families. And that's that's never going to end.
But we offer an alternative to people who, you know, kind of feel
that desire to really be involved in something that takes a lot of craft,
a lot of love, and ends up being a very valuable product. So
I'm going to give you an example. Moonlight won the Academy Award two years
ago. And Moonlight was made for reputedly one hundred and fifty dollars, sorry,
one point five million bucks, and then there was a big marketing budget,
well not big five million, probably the one against it. So Moonlight
ends up getting a theatrical run that did well, and then they ended up
doing very well on vod and cable and they won an Academy Award. But
I have to wonder, Okay, this movie is going to make one hundred
and fifty million dollars after production net. Who's getting that money? Is it
the people that sacrificed their rate, showed up, did the extra hours,
put the love into it, and made the movie, or is it somebody
else? Well, I think we all know the answer. Is it somebody
else? So what if My question is, what if a group of filmmakers
could come together make a product like Moonlight and now the budget is not going
to be one point five million because no one's getting paid. You're doing it
in kind for ownership in the movie. And then if you've got some fixed
costs. But we can bring everybody into this scenario. Studio owners that are
getting squeezed can actually let us use the studio for a piece of the movie.
Camera department. Maybe they've got two year old cameras that aren't being rented
for full price anymore that they'll put on the movie, for a piece of
the action craft, anybody, anybody involved, location owners, transport the works,
and you're still gonna have some fixed costs. So now you can make
the movie for a really good movie for two or three hundred thousand dollars or
less. It all depends on what your consumables are. So now you make
the movie great and it's owned by the people that made it. Okay,
this is a key thing. Now, if that movie goes out and it
makes one hundred and fifty million dollars net after distribution or whatever, okay,
And you can even bring a marketing team in to be part of your group,
so you don't have to go pay for marketing. You can find a
marketing group and say, do you want to be part of this? Right?
Anybody can be part of it. The distribution people can be part of
it. So you create this wonderful waterfall saying, okay, all these dollars
that come in, they're all going pro rata to the people that own the
property. And by my math, on a one point five million dollar feature
that does one hundred and fifty million dollars net after distribution over a period of
time, because it's longtail money and that's how money gets made on distribution platforms.
Now everyone would get paid one hundred times the rate. Good. Bad?
What do you think that sounds a good trade off? Yeah? Man,
So where we started is saying we're going to dream big right at black
Box. We're in a dream big. We're gonna say we want to make
blockbuster feature films. We would love to be able to make a Black Panther
in five years and have all the people that made the movie get a really
nice paycheck, right because they deserve it. We love these people. They
need they need this opportunity because right now it's just it's not working out so
good. Right, So that's our dream, but we couldn't start there,
so we decided to build our platform in a smaller, more highly defined marketing
nuts this stock foot market. So currently our platform servance is start footage.
So what you can do is you can take your camera right now, like
you're a camera guy, right dad? Yeah? Okay, do you own
your own gear? Yeah? I have it right here. Actually it's actually
right behind me. You can't see it because it's a podcast, but yeah,
it's right about it. So what kind of camera you're on? I
have a canon rebel. I think it's the was it sixty to seventy?
Okay, So let's say you've got a sixty You could probably walk out of
where you are right now, and it's not daylight there anymore. So let's
say you get up in the morning and go for a walk and you see
something beautiful that you want to capture, so you do it, and then
you see something else that you want to capture maybe you know whatever. And
this is a very simple example, mind you. So but you can then
go home and you can actually curate that into five very nice clips. You
can put them up to our platform. We'll take them out to all the
big stock agencies, and when the money comes, it returns to black Box
and then we take fifteen percent of the net sale and we deliver the rest
to you. So basically, it's an upload once get to many scheme.
Now, let's say you go back to your house and you say, oh,
I don't really don't want to edit this, pat We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. You
want to edit this, and you call me up and say you want to
edit my clips. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do it for
thirty percent and you go, okay, deal thirty percent. So now you
can upload those clips to black Box or send me sorry, send me the
raw, and I will actually edit them, upload them, tag them and
do the metadata and then when and then when the money comes, black Box
auto automatically pays me my share, and you automatically get paid your share.
You don't touch my money. I don't touch your money. Or another option
is you want to edit, but you hate doing the metadata, you hate
doing the keywords and the descriptions and all that. So you can actually edit
them, upload them and then hand off to me and I'll do the metadata
and I'll do it for fifteen percent. So that's what we built and it
actually works. So we've got thousands of people all over the world doing this.
I just project go through where a guy in South Africa had seven hundred
clips. He put him up on the platform and he assigned the curation to
metadata curation to a woman here in Ottawa where I live actually, who's a
very good editor. So now we've got this international collaboration going and it all
happens within our platform. So that's where we started. And our next move
is into short form and long form and you can do YouTube videos this way.
So, like I said earlier, a lot of YouTubers they want to
do everything themselves because they want to keep the money right like, and they
don't know what they're going to make, and it's like it's all freaking everybody
out. Well what have you said? Well, why don't we do this
as a team. Why don't we actually do some produced content where we actually
use real writer, real director, real you know, real, real,
real and everybody worse together and make some product that's watchable and then you put
it to black Box and we manage the whole process of getting into audience and
then dividing a revenue. And it works. I mean, that's all I
have to say. It works, It works really really well. And then
as we grow, we're going to take on bigger projects indie films. Right
now, if there are indie filmmakers that have had no luck distributing their film,
you can contact me and I will find a way to get your film
onto our platform. You will have to go back and figure out who did
what on the movie, so you can make sure that everybody gets compensated when
the money comes. And then we will, through our developing relationships with distribution
and VOD, will have a good chance of getting your movie seen. So
this is what we're trying to do. And you know, I think that's
great. Too bad, I mean, you mentioned you mentioned Black Panther.
I'm always in favor of the movies like Black Moonlight Where or movies like obviously
The Blair which or Paranormal Activity. You know, those movies that come out
of left field that just you know, go they go ape shit. You
know, My big fat Greek Wedding. You know these movies that are shot
for like twenty thousand dollars and they have a pretty good return, you know.
And you know, just just as we talk about, you know,
gear and producers and stuff. You know, I went at a friend of
mine who was going to make a movie for ten grand and this this person
who owned a rental house got a hold of them and he came back heck
to tell me. He goes, Dave, I can't do it for ten
thousand anymore. I need a quarter of a million. And I said,
well, I said, no, you don't. I said, love of
God, you don't need a co I've read a script. He did not
need a quarter of a million dollars. He could have done it for ten
thousand dollars at the max because it only took place in one room. There
was no stunts or explosives. There's no squibs, there's nothing. There's no
famous people that were needed or we're going to be in it. So I
was like, man, just just don't even worry about that stuff. Well,
you know, the whole point here is that making a good Like you
can make a movie. Anybody can make a movie. I got an iPhone,
I can make a movie right now, Like, no problem, right,
But are you going to make a movie that's going to be compelling that
someone's going to want to watch? And yeah, you can bank on having
the next Blair Witch or whatever. But I believe that for the same reasons
that our labor market have disrupted, we have an army of young filmmakers who
are actually quite talented and capable who are coming along. But the problem is
they're trying to do it all themselves, Like they're trying to self produce,
self make, and self distribute movies. And I think that that's a missed
opportunity because when we put together, when we put groups of talented people together,
it makes for better product. And when we work together and we try
to develop platforms like black Box that help people do the business end, which
is often where things fall apart. Right Like for example, you know,
I make a movie for ten grand and I call in all the favors in
town. Right, Well, if that movie ends up going viral and I
make I don't know two and a half million dollars on it, how much
that money is going to go back to the people that helped me. There
are no deals in place, there's no structure, there's no system, and
it's very likely that those people aren't going to get paid because they did it
as a favor. Right, So what black Box does is eliminates the favors.
We don't do favors, and we don't do deferrals. No one ever
gets paid on deferral. You know anyone that's ever been paid on deferral.
It's a big joke, true. I know Hollywood actors, you know who
I talked to, Like, I was talking to a guy named Martin Cove
who was the Sin Say and the Karate Kid, and Martin's a great guy,
and I said, hey, Martin, how many deferrals have you ever
been paid on? He just laughed, he laughed, He said, no,
people don't get paid on deferrals. And he's bullish on black Box act
Like, there's a lot of actors in Hollywood that'll do this because it's not
a deferral and it's not a favor. And it's not a rate reduction either.
It's a fair share of the movie that you make. So if it
makes money, and when it makes money, you get paid your share.
Our system is guaranteed to pay you. So, guy that wants to do
a ten thousand dollars movie, I would say, make a million dollar movie,
but make sure it's all in kind, and then your fixed costs will
only be ten thousand dollars if you happen to have to buy some squibs.
So bring the rental house in as a partner, bring the studio in as
a partner, Bring the locations in as a partner, Bring the actors in,
bring the crew in, bring everybody in as a partner. I mean,
even to the point where you're making an Indian you say, you know,
well, we're not catering is bring your own lunch, right, and
make a great movie and capture the passion of all those people, and get
the best people involved, right, Like, don't get your cousin to hold
the boom, get a sound guy to do it, get somebody who's really
good at it to do it. And then guess what you're going to have
usable audio and post right, and your movie is not going to sound like
crap, and you can get yourself a decent composer. And you know,
it just goes on and on and on and on and on. And we
learned all of this through the stock footage thing, because you know, what
we see. We see people who are learning faster, doing better work,
and making more money. We've got people actually on our platform right now who
are getting ready to quit their jobs and they're not taking gigs anymore because they're
making enough money off of their stock footage portfolio to float their boat. And
now what they're doing is they're saying, great, I'm floating my boat from
my stock work, so I'm going to go make my movie now, and
they're going to make it using a black box or at the black box platform.
I know, it's a big idea, Like a lot of people are
sitting out there in your audience right going, what the hell is Pat talking
about? If I don't get this at all? Right, But because it
is a huge, huge shift, it's an absolute it's a paradigm shift.
Like it's revolutionary. And I'm not saying that because you know, hey,
you know Pats and smart guy, he did a revolutionary thing. I actually
did this so that I could have a better life facing a disruptive market.
And I did it so that my peeps, the creators who I know,
could have a better life too. And we did it as well so that
the guy living in Nairobi, which is a bad place to be right now
with all the flooding, but the guy living in Nairobi could go out and
capture images of all the wonderful natural beauty in Nairobi are in Kenya, as
opposed to having a bund of white guys flying in on a plane with an
area alexa and leave with all the imagery and all the guy got was in
his porter feet. So we could actually go in and train that guy and
maybe even helping get a quick so that he can be the content creator because
he's possibly very talented. So we're going to liberate a lot of creators using
this platform, and we're gonna flatten out the world, and we're gonna make
it a fair deal. Yeah. And when you were talking about everyone getting
paid deferrals and stuff like that, it always reminds me of what they call
the Hollywood accounting side of things, where you know, uh, you know,
people get points in the movie never terms of profits, so you never
see those points. But when you were you were talking about black Box,
Pat, I, you know, all of this, you know makes sense
to me. It sounds like a really really really cool platform where people can
actually collectively get together. And if you do decide to hire this DP or
hire this person or hire this whatever, you know, people will get you
know, people now are bounded to to to get paid rather than deferrals or
like you know, you promises or you know whatever. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show which I I
which sometimes by the way, you know, I just want to mention I've
seen that getting people into a lot of trouble before it too. Deferrals.
Uh, you know, I actually had a project that that that I saw,
I wasn't involved in, and feelings were let out on Facebook, and
you know how what happens then patted just snowballs, and all of a sudden
you have people young at each other on social media. Exactly. It just
gets ugly, exactly. You know. Well, you know the one the
one point I would like to leave people people with is that you can work
or you can earn. Okay, So black Box allows people to earn.
It converts you from being a worker into an earner and an owner of the
content that you make. It's like, it's like, you know, there's
lots of good analogies out there. I think farming is a good analogy.
Do you want to be a paid farm worker getting a low rate or do
you want to be a sharecropper and own part of the product that goes out?
You know. And so what we're creating is an environment where you have
that choice because nobody works in black Box there. It's not a job,
it's not a gig, not at all. Actually, it's very different.
And just so everybody knows, the website is www Dot black box, dot
global. It's not a dot com, it's a dot global. So www
dot blackbox, dot global. I had to throw that in there. Date
and you know, come to the website, check it out. See what
you think. It doesn't cost anything to join this. If you do join,
you know, we want to see you get active and we're going to
try to help you do that. But it's not free candy. Like you
got to work. You got to do the work, and you know there's
stuff that you have to do. You got to make content. You got
to edit it, you got to curate it, you got to upload it.
But if you're trying to go to five stock footage libraries right now,
you've got to upload five times and it is not fun work. So we
take that whole adgro out for you. And then if you're trying to share
revenue with a collaborator, you know, like, for instance, if you
want to do a shoot tomorrow with three models in a cafe, you could
actually instead of having to pay the cafe and the models, you could say
to the model in the cafe and find people who are willing to do this
to take a share of the revenue or the footage. Awesome. And we
got a lot of people doing this. We have a member that did a
cool shoot in a hospital and did a whole bunch of medical stuff and everybody
is getting paid on a share basis. So you see these little micro transactions
going through, but it adds up. It really does. Like a lot
of the stuff that I've done, I've been lucky. You know, I'm
not a genius cinematographer or anything, but i know what I'm doing and I've
done a lot and lots of shoots where I go out for a week and
do wildlife stuff where I would have gotten paid anywhere from six to ten thousand
dollars for the week if I was working for a network, and my projection
on some of those shoots is one hundred thousand dollars to me because the market
is so the market demand is so high for that type of footage, So
like you can make your day rate over a period of years using black Box,
or you can make five to ten times your day rate or more.
And we've got lots of examples of that, some really spectacular examples of people
making a lot more money doing this than they would get on a game.
So it's it's looking really really promising. We're really excited, and we really
want to help them as many creators in I mean dative. I'm going to
invite you to join budd to go to the website and register, and maybe
you got a bunch of clotes you want to throw up there and h and
be part of the community. And that's another thing about this. We've got
We've got a great community. Feel like we have a Facebook group for members
where it's the least toxic Facebook group I've ever seen. It's almost too nice.
And everybody is so cooperative and supportive and is getting into the spirit of
what we're trying to do because it's black Box is not a doggy dog world.
It's a place where we're all in it together. And when we when
when one person succeeds, everybody succeeds, you know. And I'm going to
link to all that in the show notes everybody, and I'm going to check
it out. I'm dead serious, Pat. I also want to check out
this non toxic Facebook group because I have one myself and I keep it.
I'm the moderator, so it's always kept non toxic. But I've never seen
anybody else have a non toxic Facebook Facebook group because usually it the voids into
something. And funny enough, it's usually screenwriting Facebook groups that go bed fans
and I've seen the fights and I've seen everything else. Man, But you
know, I was going to ask you where if you'll find you out online,
but you you know, you know I will make sure to link to
that. You you already gave the r L. But I'm going to link
to that and everything else we talked about everyone in the show notes at Dave
Bullis dot com. Pat, I want to say thank you so much for
coming on. Man, it's been a real pleasure. No, you're a
great interviewer, so thanks for that. Well, thank you, Matt,
you know, thanks for letting me talk about black Box. Oh my pleasure.
Pat, and you know, let's talk again real soon. You got
it, brother, Thanks a million. I want to thank Dave so much
for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get
links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show
notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three thirty nine. Thank you
so much for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter
what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting
podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.