WEBVTT

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You are listening to the IFH podcast
Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting

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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot
com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,

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00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.719
Episode number three thirty nine. Cinema
is a matter of what's in the

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frame and what's out. Now,
more than ever, we need to talk

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to each other, to listen to
each other and understand how we see the

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world, and cinema is the best
medium for doing this. Martin Scorsese broadcasting

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from a dark, windowless room in
Hollywood when we really should be working on

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that next draft. It's the Bulletproof
Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and

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business of screenwriting while teaching you how
to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's

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your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof

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Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's

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show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now, unlike other script coverage services,

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Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the
kind of project you are and the

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goals of the project you are,
So we actually break it down by three

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you need your screenplay or TV script
covered by professional readers, head on over

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to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Enjoy today's
episode with guest host Dave Bullis. My

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next guest is a film and videographer
from Ottawa, Canada. He has been

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in the business for years making different
wildlife videos and he and I are going

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to talk a lot about videography,
doing interviews even like this. You know

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what happens when somebody, you know, you know, a project and somebody

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says, hey, I can get
my kid to make this for cheaper.

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Why am I paying you ten thousand
dollars or five thousand dollars. I can

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get my kid to do it with
an iPhone. We talk all about that

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stuff, which happens a lot nowadays. Which is one of the reasons why

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I don't do it anymore, because
it just got it just got such to

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be a paying the ass, because
if you kid can do it, why

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the hell you even talking to me? And I tell a little bit of

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some stories in this too, about
some of the things that I've encountered,

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and we're gonna talk about Black Box, which is what my next guest decided

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to make, and it's a really
really cool venture. So without further ado,

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Pat McGowan, I was always a
kid that was interested in a lot

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of different things, and I think
I was pretty visual, but I was

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more on the audio side. I
was a musician. I was interested in

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the music business. I worked as
a musician for a long time. But

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I also had my scientific side,
so I ended up doing like pre meds

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and biology and psychology at college.
And I was a photographer when I was

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a kid. So it's just kind
of this mesh mash mixed up kid didn't

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know what I wanted to do,
but I had an opportunity when I was

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at college to join a rock band
and do some studio work. And when

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I walked into the actual recording studio, it was a sixteen track recording studio

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in Toronto, and I'll never forget
the feeling that I was home. So

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I was really I was a studio
guy, and that led me into film

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as a composer and as an audio
post guy, and then led me into

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more as a director. And you
know, it's kind of the best of

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all world for me. So,
but you know, the people, all

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those very interests, they usually end
up making the most interesting people. Well,

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I'm not going to say that.
Maybe you can at the end of

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the interview. Let's see what you
say then, all right, all right,

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now, now now the pressure's on
that. Now it has to be

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interesting. So basically, when you
were going to college, you know,

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and you were just doing all these
different things, that kind of sounds like

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my route too, because you know, when I was going to college,

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I was doing ten thousand different things, but I was always the one thing

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I was steady was screenwriting and stuff
like that. And I till I was

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ready to graduate, I was like, I don't want to do this one

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thing anymore, which was business.
I was like, I don't want to

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go in that anymore. I'm about
to get a degree in it. So

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it's like, what the hell I
hear you, man. Absolutely, We're

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really lucky to do what we do, you know, because we get to

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be involved in so many different things
and so many different aspects of life.

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We get to travel, we get
to meet a lot of people, you

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know. In my corporate and government
and film production life, I was on

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a new subject matter every week or
two, you know, and you had

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to become an instant expert, and
you had to be able to hold your

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own, especially if you were interviewing
people like you do. And you know,

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it's just to be a wonderful ride. Yeah, interviewing people, I

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you know, just as a side
of this podcast has really helped me in

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other ways too. It's only made
me like a better conversationalist. But it's

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just you know, you can you
can pretty much not talk to anybody.

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I mean I was always pretty good
before at networking, but I think this

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is maybe from like good to like
great, because now you can just you

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have the confidence just to go up
and strike a conversation about anything. Yeah,

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for sure, man, You just
have to ask two or three questions

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and and know people people love to
talk about themselves and what they do,

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and if you just get out of
their way, normally. Normally you'll get

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some goal. Yeah, very very
true. That's why I tend to let

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people just sort of they let the
guests take of the take over the conversation,

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because a lot of times they might
my guess will say, oh my

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god, I just was talking and
talking and talking. And I said,

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well, that's a good thing because
people could because I'm here every week.

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You know, I go. The
guest is only here for the one time,

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so I might as well, you
know, showcase them. Well,

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once you get me going, you're
not going to shut me up that easily.

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I always say, feel free to
talk is much as you want,

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and I won't edit it and make
it look bad or anything. All right,

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sounds good to me. Man.
So, Pat, when you're going

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out there and you're doing like freelance
video videography work and stuff like that,

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and you're doing commercial work, et
cetera, what are some of the things

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that you've learned or some of the
tips that you could like give because I

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you know, I had a friend
of mine, for instance, he always

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would go into like different stores,
like like mom and pop stores and pizza

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places and stuff, and you'd always
you know, say to the owner,

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hey, this is a really cool
place. You know, this is a

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really cool blah blah blah. And
he always would try to, you know,

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different locations. He always would keep
in the back of his mind in

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case you ever had to film there
for whatever reason. You know, have

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you ever, you know, do
you have any tips like that about how

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you you know, maybe got you
know, maybe met different people in different

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places. Yeah, no question about
that, especially because of some of the

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work that I do, and a
lot of the work that I ended up

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doing had to do with filming,
you know, b roll on stock footage.

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So you're always on the lookout for
friendly people that can give you access.

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You're always on the lookout for great
locations that you can return to you

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later. So yeah, you just
really keep your eyes peeled and you know,

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figure it out and if you end
up doing, you know, a

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TV series or whatever, you kind
of got you know. In my case,

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I'm Canadian and I've got Canada mapped. I've been all over the country.

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I've been all in every single province. I've been in every single city,

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and we know a lot of people
and you know the thing is is

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that we're all kind of connected now. So once you make those relationships and

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you understand the mapping, then it's
so much easier to go back and the

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next time you're there, you kind
of know where you are. And yeah,

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so you just kind of keep your
eyes peeled and develop the relationships as

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you move along. Yeah, building
relationships. That is the key part of

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this, my friend, building relationships. It's all about people, no question,

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and it's getting more and more about
people every day. In spite of

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the fact that we've been I think
we've been kind of trained with social media

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and so on that we can,
you know, live in our hobbit holes

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and still be connected, which is
true, but actually sitting down and talking

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to people and getting to know them
and being with them is the only way

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to really connect. And I think
we have an opportunity now, you know,

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to do that more and more on
a lobal level. Also, we

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kind of put it all together and
say we've got all these platforms now,

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then well when you go there and
just the relationships to the world is getting

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smaller and smaller and smaller. And
it's not a virtual world. It's a

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virtual and a real world and you
have to live in both. Yeah.

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Yeah, and you know, I'm
guilty of that. Too, where I

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try to just well I did,
I consciously made that decision. You know,

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I don't know about you, Pat, but I got burned down from

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going to networking events. I mean
I got burned out. I used to

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be mister networking event too, and
eventually I stopped because I said, you

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know what, Eventually you start to
realize, you know, half these people

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are never going to they don't they're
not going to make anything because they really

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don't want to make anything. They
want to go somewhere and be seen and

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take photos and stuff like that.
And your goals aren't the same thing as

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them, you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't really know how

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to respond to that, Dave,
because I do a fair bit of networking

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and I usually end up meeting at
least one or two people at you know,

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whatever the event is where you end
up actually getting a good forged relationship.

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But you know, I think you're
right. I think a lot of

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people are just going to party a
drink or whatever their thing is, and

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you know, you kind of have
to be able to wead that out.

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We did a network event networking event
in Toronto about a month ago, and

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yeah, there were a lot of
people there that were just for the there

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for the beer, but a number
of people I ended up developing, you

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know, some really good contacts with
and relationships. We'll be right back after

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a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show, because,

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as we'll get into a little bit
later, we are actually trying to grow

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a global movement. So that means
that we we have to find the people

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that are interested in having that connection
and then reaching out and having that global

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network so that you know, creators
like us actually have a safer place to

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operate. So yeah, I know
what you mean though, like some of

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the networking events that there's a lot
of posing and posturing and a lot of

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bullshit, but you do, you
know, there's usually some pretty good people

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at most of these things. Yeah, And I always feel free to always

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disagree with me, you know,
most people do. It's always and it's

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always good too to hear. Here
are two different opinions on the podcast,

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you know, and so let's just
say, you know, going to these

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networking events, you know, whether
they're in Canada like you are, or

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they're in the you know, United
States seket like I am, wherever they

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might be listening to this, you
know, what are some of the tips

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that you have for networking? You
know, just like going out there and

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meeting people and and some of the
things that you maybe even like warning signs

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that you kind of see if people
to stay away from. Well, I

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think the main thing is just to
be open and honest and transparent. And

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you know, again, you know, it comes down to some people skills

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too. Being able to walk up
to somebody and say, hey, my

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name is, what's your name?
What do you do? Tell me?

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More, be able to ask those
three or four questions that are going to

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get them comfortable so that they can
you know, actually participate in a conversation

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with you, or if they're cagey, you know, you kind of break

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down their defenses a little bit and
you know, so that you can actually

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have a one on one conversation.
Uh. The thing I always watch for

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is eye contact. Actually, if
people are not going to engage you with

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eye contact, then it's going to
be tough for work. Or if they're

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kind of you know, looking around
to see if there's a better person to

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talk to. Maybe they think you're
not worth it or you've got nothing for

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them. I also really kind of
watch out for people that don't ask questions

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back because that means that they're not
engaged in the conversation. And if you

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got a prod and prod and prod, I say, just cut it off,

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say thanks a lot, and move
on, go talk to somebody else.

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And you know what, I like
that two PAC because I think that

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works for you know, even you
know, virtual meetings, like you know,

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if you meet somebody online, maybe
it's either Facebook or something or the

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Twitter or whatever. I you know, I found that people who just kind

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of you have to keep prodding them, whether it be like hey, this

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or the you know about this or
that, or where you know they they

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don't want to ask you about what
you do or whatever. Those are the

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generally the people where you're kind of
like, all right, they're not in

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this meeting, and you know what
they're what is waste each other's time at

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this point. Yeah, I would
totally agree with that. But again,

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you know, like we got kind
of get back to this whole idea of

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what we do professionally too. And
I interview a lot of people. I

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mean I've actually, if I had
to count the interviews I've done, I've

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done thousands in my career. And
you know, I kind of conduct myself

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as if I'm doing an interview.
I would like to ask a lot of

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questions. So if I'm trying to
engage somebody, even on Facebook, they

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all ask them what do you do? You know, what's your specialty,

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what are you up to, what
kind of projects are you working on?

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What's pissing you off? You know, like what barriers do you have in

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your in your life right now that
you know you could do better with?

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And I find that, you know, I'd say I'd say that probably seven

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out of ten people are willing to
have the conversation once they realize. The

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big thing these days is no one
wants to be sold to, so they're

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always they're always on a guard about
you know, what do you want from

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me? Right? So if you
can kind of break through that, it's

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it's easier to get a more meaningful
discussion going. And yeah, hey man,

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I'm not gonna lie sometimes I am
selling. Sometimes I do want you

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to get involved in what we're doing. But if you go right in with

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that pitch hard at the beginning,
your chances are going to go down.

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So you know, you've got to
really get get human, you know,

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have a human conversation, be sincere, be honest, and like I said,

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I think seven out of ten people
will generally engage and the other three

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well, you know what, so
be it, no big deal, no

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problem, or maybe they'll come back
later, who knows. So you know,

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you mentioned doing thousands of thousands of
interviews, you know, so let's

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just you know, go back to
that and how you sort of got started

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doing that, you know, back
to to actually going around and just you

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know, talking to all these different
people. So how did that whole journey

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start? Were you just going around
interviewing all these people? Well, I

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usually interview people when I'm on assignment. So if we're producing a video where

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we need to collect interviews or we're
doing a doc, that's my job.

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So I'm the guy that sits in
the chair and directs the shoot and does

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the interviewing. And you know,
I've learned a whole lot doing it,

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and I learned a lot about psychology, a lot about people. But yeah,

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so it all starts with a project. And you know, typically I

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love to go in cold. I
don't do a lot of research when I

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do interviews. I want to explore
the information along the path of the interview

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rather than walking in with thirty nine
questions and just running through the questions.

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We want to find out what people
are passionate about, so you've got to

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read their body language. Like interviewing
is a really interesting thing. You're usually

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working at at least two levels,
and usual and probably three. So you've

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got your physical situation where you've got
to engage with body language that allows the

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person to feel a comfortable but be
also then you want them to know that

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you're interested in. Body language has
an awful lot to do with that.

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You can turn people off so easily
with the wrong body language, so you've

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got to be really well versed in
how that works. And you also have

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to be able to read body language
to know where you're going to go with

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this thing. The other level you're
working at is at the intellectual level,

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so you're gonna you know, I
always say, you know when I'm recording,

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when I'm doing interviews, my brain
is actually recording the interview so that

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I know where all the contextual points
are. I know where the pickups and

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drop offs are. I know how
to correct people, I know how to

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redirect them. So as I'm sitting
there, you know, nodding and smiling

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and using body language. My brain
is just furiously processing what they're saying.

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So you have to listen and actually
process it and embed it and store it

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so that later in the interview you
can come back and make a make a

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what I call a contextual link to
what was said before. And that is

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often when you get the best stuff. And then you've got the other the

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other level, which is the conversation
level, because now I've got to respond

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in a conversational way that's actually reasonably
intelligent. And you know, unless people

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know that I care about what they're
saying, I understand what they're saying,

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and I know enough about what they're
saying to actually have them feel validated and

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engaged. So it's a really really
interesting process and you and you end up

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exhausted at the end of them.
You know, some interviews you've just burned

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so much brain energy that I mean, you need it. You need it

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to go for lunch, like right
away. So it's an amazing process actually,

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and you know a lot of people, you know, I see some

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young folks coming out, and the
biggest caution that I would say is don't

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just run the questions right don't just
run the questions, get yourself into that

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conversation, be interested in what people
are saying, and you'd be amazed at

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what you're going to get. And
one tip I always use with a lot

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of the people I interview is I
don't respond to them as soon as they

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stop talking, because sometimes if you
leave a five second pregnant pause in the

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conversation, they're going to say what
they really need, right because a lot

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of people get very nervous and they're
vetting what they're saying. And you know,

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we've had people in the chair crying
because they couldn't do the interview because

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they were so nervous. But if
you just let them sit, you know,

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just let it go and don't stop
the camera and don't cut, sometimes

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that's when the best stuff happens.
I was giving you the pregnant pause there,

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But you know it's a friend of
mine once gave me this piece of

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advice and he said, he said
to me that whenever he's negotiating, he

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always puts in that pregnant pause on
purpose because he always says, the first

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person that talks loses. You know
what, As on the business side,

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if you talk too much, you
lose the deal. That's all there is

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to it. You got to learn
how to sit. Yeah, and he's

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a fellow Canadian too, bat oh
yeah, where's he from. I believe

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he's from Toronto, Okay, because
that's that's where all the sharks live in

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Canada. All he does is talk
about the housing market there. But that's

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a whole nother podcast. Uh especially
now, Yeah, he all he does

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is talk about the housing market and
and he just like about the insanity of

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it. But but again, that's
that's a whole other whole thing. Well,

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you know, maybe it's interesting,
maybe some of he's accusing some some

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00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:59.920
people of like Chinese millionaires and billionaires. We'll be right back after a word

291
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:07.799
from our sponsor, and now back
to the show of using these houses as

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sort of like a money laundering scam. I don't know if that's sure or

293
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not, but you know, hey, you know, anything's possible. Well,

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you know, man, I think
that happens in London, New York,

295
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Los Angeles, Seattle, Vancouver,
certainly West Coast. Definitely there's a

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lot of Chinese money on the move. I don't know if it's dirty money

297
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or not. I have no opinion
about that. But I know, you

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know, Vancouver. Vancouver is ridiculous, and it's actually more ridiculous than Toronto.

299
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But there's a big correction about to
happen, so I wouldn't be buying

300
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any high priced real estate in Toronto
just right now, I think I walk

301
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away from that. Yeah, it's
I heard about that too, about that

302
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correction. But you know, just
to get you know, back to to

303
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what we're talking about with interviewing,
you know, I wanted to ask you

304
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a question and I'll and i'll you
know, I'll tell you my funny story.

305
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First, I wanted to ask you
about one of the worst interviews you've

306
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ever done, because again, we
always learn more from our mistakes than from

307
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our successes. And so so what
happened was, when I was working in

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Higher ed they had asked me,
so I I to do this. This

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probably is the worst one, but
it's the funniest one. So they asked

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me to do this, this interview
segment with the girls volleyball team, and

311
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the coach who you know, who
was a part time coach, showed up

312
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.960
late and he has all these questions
just hands, you know, scribbled on

313
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.160
a piece of paper. It's all, you know, cut up. He

314
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.680
just ripped it out of a notebook, and he's asking these questions, Well,

315
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.440
these girls are talking about stuff that
I could never ever use in a

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00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.119
school setting. They're talking about doing
drugs, they're talking about there, they're

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00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.720
yeah, they're they're they're trash talking
their teammates. They're doing this and that,

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and and the coach was reading the
same questions teach each girl because we

319
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told him to. And and then
he would be, you know, asking

320
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a couple of different questions here and
there. And finally when he asked me,

321
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.079
he could if I put this together, and I said, you don't

322
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want me to use any of that. I said, you know except for

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one girl. And those girls were
you know, do you know, trash

324
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talking girls, shit talking this and
that. And he yeah, I guess,

325
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.319
well you can just put something together. So I put this thing together

326
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and and bat, let me tell
you, his face dropped and he goes,

327
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he goes, you're right, I
could never use any of this.

328
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He goes, it was it was, It was. It was so hilarious

329
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because what I would do is I
kind of gave it like the MTV styalve

330
00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.680
editing where I was like, here
you go here's what they think of this,

331
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this and this, and it was
like, you know, they they

332
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thought, oh, what do you
think of this thing? Oh it's terrible,

333
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it sucks, blah blah. I'm
like, you can't use any of

334
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.039
that, you can't have to school
promote this. But it was just it

335
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.640
was just hilarious just because of how
ridiculous it was so beat I want to

336
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.759
throw the question to you. You
know what, what was one of the

337
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.720
worst, you know times you've had, you know, doing an interview segment.

338
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.880
Well, I was telling you a
few minutes ago, I had this

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00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:02.839
this poor woman who was so upset
that she couldn't perform. So, you

340
00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:04.279
know, this is one of the
things that we tell people, do not

341
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.359
try to memorize what you're going to
say in the interview, like don't take

342
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.720
our quest Like a lot of a
lot of the institutional or government types or

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00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.240
you know, bureaucratic types, they
want you to send them the questions in

344
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.400
advance so they can prepare so you
know, then they end up writing,

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00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:26.759
you know, writing ben hur so
that they can answer these questions. And

346
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it's just ridiculous. They come in
with you know, like pages and pages

347
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.440
and pages and just again, I'm
going you can't possibly, like, there's

348
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no way you're going to be able
to do that. And this lady that

349
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I was working with, and it
was a very serious subject matter, and

350
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:45.920
she was like the CEO, and
she was brilliant, really intelligent person,

351
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:52.039
very you know, beautiful woman,
clearly very professional. But the boy,

352
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.960
she was nervous and I could tell
as soon as she walked in the room

353
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it was going to be trouble.
So we got her in the chair.

354
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Wasn't the studio set, you know, everything's controlled environment, And we got

355
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:07.480
her in the chair and she could
not just could not do it, could

356
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.920
not do it. And I think
she had like a tiny little nervous breakdown.

357
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Anyways, we had her in the
chair for two hours because she wouldn't

358
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.599
quit either, her cap telling her, you know, you need to take

359
00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.599
a break, you know, don't
worry about it, and we were being

360
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:29.160
really really kind, you know,
and accommodating, and she was in this

361
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chair for two hours and I thought
she was just gonna snap. It was.

362
00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.440
It was a horrible experience. It
was. It was painful actually for

363
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.960
everybody in the room, even at
the camera guy and producer was in the

364
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:45.039
room. Her colleagues were in the
room, and everybody just felt so bad.

365
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.640
So that's you know, I know, that's not like you know,

366
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:53.119
talking to a bunch of teenage girls
trash talking each other to really have that

367
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.440
experience, but you know, that
was probably the worst one. It's just

368
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:03.279
terrible when you get people who are
so upset that they're judging themselves so harshly

369
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.279
when all they have to do is
just talk like we're having coffee, right,

370
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.400
And I've got like a zillion techniques
that I use to get people to

371
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:17.400
settle down and to relax and stop
being so freaked out, but sometimes they

372
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:22.400
just don't work. You know,
they just don't work. And you know,

373
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some of the worst ones we do
are actually when the client, you

374
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.039
know, tells us, well,
we don't have travel budget to send you

375
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.720
to locations, so you know,
we're going to hire a camera guy locally

376
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.680
and can you direct by skype?
And those are really really hard to do

377
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.559
because you don't have the personal connection, you can't do eye contact properly,

378
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:48.960
and if you get somebody who's tough
to deal with in that situation, you

379
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.000
know, sometimes the client's grinding on
you because well, why couldn't you get

380
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:53.160
it. What's so hard about this? And I going, well, you

381
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.640
know, I guess you haven't done
several thousand interviews, so it's going to

382
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.240
be hard for me to explain this
to you. But they sucked, So

383
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:07.960
what do you want me to do? I can't force these people to give

384
00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.680
a good interview basically, So yeah, I mean there's a lot of pressure

385
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.400
and uh, you know, there's
money on the line and everything. So

386
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:22.400
my attitude is always the same,
and I always ask myself this question.

387
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.680
In all production situations, it's basically
like who's going to die here? Like

388
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.839
what are the stakes? Okay,
so nobody's gonna die. Everybody relax.

389
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.960
Let's just let's just do our jobs. And we're do our good jobs.

390
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:38.079
We're all professional. Let's just get
this done. But you know, we

391
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:44.279
don't need stress and pressure in production
situations. It's just it's just a completely

392
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.519
ridiculous waste of time when you do
that. Yes, I could not agree

393
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.759
more man, And I've been a
part of both of both productions like that

394
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:56.240
where it's been you know, sort
of more loose, and then others where

395
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.000
it was just you know, you
walk on set and you could just feel

396
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.720
the tension you know where the director
doesn't like the DP, the DV doesn't

397
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.599
like the producer, the producers of
the director, and you're just kind of

398
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.640
like, wow, you know,
who the hell needs this stuff? It's

399
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.880
just bullshit. Yeah, So,
you know, I came to a point

400
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:18.039
in my career where I just said, I'm not doing bullshit anymore. I'm

401
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.200
not I'm just not doing it.
It's not worth it. So now I

402
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:27.720
hunt situations with my startup black Box, where it's a no bullshit deal.

403
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.839
And even when I do some freelance
work or I'm doing contract work, I

404
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.039
just I try to work it so
that there's there's no bullshit and it's all

405
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:42.160
about the work and doing good work
and you know, making sure they have

406
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:45.920
a pleasant experience and you end up
with a good product and that's the bottom

407
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.359
line, because there's just no need
for that. Yeah, you know,

408
00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.519
that's so true. And I also
like that phrase. You know, there's

409
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:57.599
no more bullshit products but projects.
I'm sorry. And was there a point,

410
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.680
by the way, Pat where you
you know, what was it?

411
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:04.480
Was there a project in particular that
finally to set you over the edge.

412
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:11.960
Well, you know that's a big
question. So the answer is yes,

413
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:17.920
and No, I had a huge
project that we had won that was a

414
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.759
museum job, and it was a
million dollar contract. It was a big,

415
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:26.640
big contract, and there were a
number of players involved, design agency

416
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:32.119
out of the States, and a
lot of curators and a lot of experts,

417
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.960
and it was a very very difficult
project. The product at the end

418
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:48.000
was absolutely wonderful, but there were
so many human imposed turf defending types of

419
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:53.200
interactions during the process that it really
became a very unpleasant project and it could

420
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.680
have been, you know, really
rewarding to do. So it was just

421
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:02.480
basically people being people, you know, defending their turf and you know,

422
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:07.240
whatever was going on. And really
it was during that project that I said

423
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.039
to myself, Okay, I've been
in this business a long time. I've

424
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.720
had a great career. I think
I'm ready to move away from doing this

425
00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:26.319
type of work because the bureaucracy and
the layers of crap were sucked the soul

426
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:32.039
right out of your chest and then
you couldn't even be creative anymore because they

427
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.440
took all the fun out of it. And you know, I don't want

428
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.279
to be cynical or anything, but
there's a lot of that going on these

429
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:42.880
days. Right where. It's just
there's so much bureaucracy, there's so much

430
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:49.960
political correctness, there's so much business
pressure that honestly a lot of these jobs

431
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:55.839
just aren't fun to do anymore.
We'll be right back after a word from

432
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:03.680
our sponsor, and now back to
the show. Yes, and that's what

433
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.720
happened to me too when I got
burned out, not even just doing freelance

434
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.599
work, but like other other work
in general, you know, and just

435
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.160
you know, here's another story for
you. I when I was doing freelance

436
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.039
work, somebody asked me to come
do this very so. They said,

437
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:22.559
it's just an interview. They said, it's just an interview. We're going

438
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.319
over all this stuff, et cetera, et cetera. And I get there

439
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.359
and it's a completely it's a whole
one eighty from what they told me it

440
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.519
was going to be. Instead,
it's a company. It was just a

441
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:40.200
competition about who could use like who
could you know, use this soul the

442
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.160
fastest or whatever. And it was
like this whole sort of convention. And

443
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:45.920
I said to the guy, I
said, wait a minute, this is

444
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.160
completely different than what you said it
was going to be. And I mean

445
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.480
he was like, well, for
any you know, always the kicker was

446
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:55.160
too bad. I showed up there
and he had no idea who I was,

447
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.640
and I said, aren't you and
I won't use his name, and

448
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.920
I said aren't you blank and he
goes yeah, and I said, well,

449
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.400
Dave, I the videographer. He
goes videographer for what? And I

450
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:04.079
said, well, you're doing some
interview thing today or something, and he

451
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.880
goes, I don't know what you're
talking about. So I go outside.

452
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.759
I look at the business and I'm
like, wait, yeah, this is

453
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.160
it. This is the place.
And I call my friend who had introduced

454
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:15.759
us, and she comes out and
she goes, oh, yeah, that's

455
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.039
him. And I go back in
there and I look at him and I

456
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:21.640
say, hey, you know,
I'm Dave. We've been talking back and

457
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:23.039
forth like a month now. He
goes, oh yeah, I forgot you

458
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.920
were coming. And I'm like,
Jesus Christ, this is And it just

459
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:32.039
went downhill from there. Pat Well, you know what, you know,

460
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.160
I don't want to get on my
on a negative soapbox or anything, because

461
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.400
you know, things have changed,
that's for sure. But this is just

462
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:45.839
an example of how I think.
I think the perceptions of what we do

463
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.720
in the industry have changed a lot
over the past five years, let's say,

464
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.920
so, I think the perception of
you know, how professional we are,

465
00:31:55.119 --> 00:32:00.640
how well trained and experienced we are. I think some people people think

466
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.200
that we are a bit of a
commodity, right, you know, it's

467
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:10.000
just a video guy. Oh yeah, whatever, right, but they still

468
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:14.839
want it done perfectly, but they
don't even know what that entails. So

469
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:16.680
you know, like I said,
I don't want to get down on it

470
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.000
too much because I'm going to sound
like a grumpy old man. But you

471
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:27.559
know, things have changed, and
the perception of what a professional does in

472
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:31.920
our industry and who they are has
has changed a lot. And you know,

473
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:37.200
quite frankly, I think in a
lot of instances, we're seeing a

474
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:42.079
lot of bad work being done,
you know, in that context, and

475
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:46.240
the clients don't even know that it's
bad work anymore because the wrong person on

476
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:51.200
their team is actually handling it.
So, you know, we got this

477
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:55.000
weird thing going on right now where
you know it's and it's always been that

478
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:58.920
way. I mean, we always
had what we call the bottom feeders in

479
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.680
the industry that just shitty work,
but everyone know who they were, and

480
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:07.079
so on and they you know,
they got hired on certain gigs, but

481
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.720
usually not. And those of us
that were kind of working the higher end

482
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.640
of the market, we knew,
we knew who was who. But these

483
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.359
days it's like, you know,
if I didn't tell a client, if

484
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.279
I have a client telling me one
more time in the meeting, well,

485
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:28.119
you know, you guys are just
super overprist because you know, actually,

486
00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:31.400
my son is taking film studies and
he's going to do it for us for

487
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.519
a hundred bucks. And you know, I just got hired to have those

488
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.799
meetings, honestly, And these days, you know, the question, the

489
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:45.920
one question I get asked by my
clients in meetings is can you do it

490
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:53.200
cheaper? Consistently? So it's time
to say, actually, no, I

491
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:58.240
can't do it cheaper. And if
you want done cheaper, you can get

492
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.279
it done by somebody else, no
problem. But you know, at the

493
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:06.160
same time, the work is a
little more scarce than it was let's say

494
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:10.039
ten years ago, and the prices
of the higher priced jobs are actually coming

495
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:16.400
down. So we're looking at a
situation where our market is becoming uncommoditized.

496
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.039
As I say, you know,
we are less of a custom valued service

497
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:28.960
than we were, we're now expected
to do work for the same rate that

498
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:34.039
we're working for hey man, twenty
years ago. Think about it. The

499
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.159
rates haven't changed really very much,
if at all, and now they're going

500
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:45.159
down again for the contract work that
we do in video and film. So

501
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:49.039
so what point, you know,
again, when I read your bio,

502
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:51.639
you know, you mentioned that you
know, you realize you woke up one

503
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.360
day and you realize you have been
disrupted, you know, And I think

504
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.599
that's a big part of it,
because what you said there is with with

505
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.599
you know, hey, I'm just
going to have my undo it. I

506
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.239
actually, let me tell you,
I've had other people say that too,

507
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.519
and you know, or I'm going
to have my son edit this or whatever

508
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.519
else, and you know, it's
like, hey, we're pe to you

509
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:14.199
if you think that you know your
son can do it. You know,

510
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.880
it's just one of those things.
But so, at what point did you

511
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:22.639
then create you know, black Box? Well, it's I created black Box

512
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:27.079
where I didn't create it three years
ago. I dated it three years ago.

513
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:31.519
So I I was sitting in my
boardroom realizing that I had built,

514
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.639
you know, a beautiful company.
I had forty employees, I had offices

515
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:43.679
in two cities, had a really
great team, and I realized that the

516
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.800
market had changed. So I realized
a couple of things. First of all,

517
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:52.119
we were involved in some broadcast work
here in Canada, and I mean,

518
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:57.119
you're familiar with the cutting the cord
phenomenon, But what happens in markets

519
00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:00.800
like Canada is when the cord gets
cut, the cable fees that people were

520
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:07.559
paying are no longer allocated for broadcast
production by the broadcasters because that's how they

521
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:13.079
get their money. And then in
our market, the Canadian government has you

522
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:19.079
know, some fun matching programs and
so on, tax credits that are all

523
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.360
predicated on the broadcasters coming to the
table. Well, the broadcasters stopped coming

524
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:27.760
to the table because they were making
less money because people were cutting the cord

525
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.800
and why were they cutting the cord
to go and watch content from digital platforms

526
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:38.159
like Netflix and YouTube and what have
you. So that's the first thing that

527
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:45.000
happened. The second thing that happened
at the same time is that technology became

528
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:52.280
much more readily available with the advent
of DSLR camera technology, So all of

529
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:58.280
a sudden, the cost of acquiring
equipment went down. If that's what you

530
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.679
were going to buy. You know, it wasn't high gear. It was

531
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.079
low end gear, but it was
low in gear that was doing good looking

532
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.400
product. And the third thing that
happened is we had a lot of young

533
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.920
people coming into the market. And
people like to beat up on millennials.

534
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:15.360
Personally, I don't think that's right. I know a lot of millennials and

535
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.960
I really like these guys. But
unfortunately they came into a market where they

536
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.440
could tool themselves and were competent enough
because they were doing some good work.

537
00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:28.880
I mean when I say that the
sun could do it, the sun could

538
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:31.400
really do it, but the sun
should have been getting paid five hundred bucks

539
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:37.960
a day rather than one hundred That's
my point. So the commodification happened on

540
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:42.119
the perceived value of the work,
right from the client saying, well,

541
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.679
my kid can do it for one
hundred bucks rather than you doing it for

542
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.559
five hundred bucks or whatever, or
a thousand, you know, which is

543
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:52.960
what we used to get. So
now we've got these three factors, we've

544
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.079
got a glut of labor willing to
work at lower pricing. And why would

545
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.239
millennials work at lower pricing, Well, a lot of them were either living

546
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.320
in apartments or the roommates. So
they don't have car payments, they don't

547
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:07.880
have college funds to build. They're
not building for retirement. You know,

548
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:14.280
they're young and because you used see
you know there were buring entry coming into

549
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.719
the market. If you were going
to be a video production company owner,

550
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:22.119
you better have the ability to acquire
capital, so you could buy high end

551
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.559
cameras for one hundred thousand dollars each
headed systems cost of fortune. You had

552
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:29.000
to have an edit bay, you
had a voiceover booth, you had to

553
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.840
have a small studio. Well all
that's gone now, like people kids are

554
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:37.360
at these millennials. Sorry again I
don't like the term, but younger people,

555
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.639
you know, they're editing at Starbucks, or they're forming into collectives where

556
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:45.920
they're sharing small office spaces. And
that's okay with that because they can cut

557
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:52.119
the video on a MacBook or a
surface or whatever, and they can shoot

558
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.920
it on a DSLR and they're not
using a twenty thousand dollars sachular tripod anymore.

559
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.440
They're using one thousand dollars you know, Vinton or whatever, or a

560
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:07.360
Matt Frauto. So everything, it
wasn't just that one thing commodified and disrupted.

561
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.400
Everything changed at the same time.
And then you had a lot of

562
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:21.039
institutional clients like government clients or you
know businesses, even bigger businesses, smaller

563
00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:25.960
businesses bringing somebody in house, so
they would hire a young person to do

564
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.519
it in house. And why well, because the young person had the camera,

565
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:36.840
had the edit bay in their pocket, had control over and these kids

566
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.079
are quite well trained, and they're
multi faceted, like they can shoot an

567
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:43.800
edit, they know how to do
audio. They're not terrible at it,

568
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:47.000
they're good at it. So you
know, this disruption had to do with

569
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.519
that whole change from you know,
a team of three or four people doing

570
00:39:52.599 --> 00:40:00.599
work will be right back after a
word from our sponsor and now back to

571
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:06.960
the show, to a team of
one or two doing work that didn't have

572
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:12.079
an office, probably weren't insured,
you know what I mean, didn't have

573
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:15.119
staff. So all of this happened
at the same time. So here I

574
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:19.440
am sitting there, a twenty five
year veteran of the business, and yeah,

575
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.119
we did get to disrupted. We
got disrupted at three levels we have

576
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:29.119
had. In nineteen or twenty fifteen, we had four I believe four broadcast

577
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:37.519
projects canceled because at whatever, there
were three different broadcasters involved relaying people off.

578
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.679
So you know, they were just
canceling a series, and we had

579
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:45.119
four series canceled. It was a
huge amount of money involved. So yeah,

580
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:50.159
we got hit pretty hard. So
I'm sitting in my boardroom with my

581
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:54.639
wife and I'm like, Okay,
we're not making money. Who's making money?

582
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:59.599
What's going on here? So we
sat and we did a bunch of

583
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:04.559
research and we concluded that there were
two ends of the spectrum that were making

584
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:10.679
money. There was the YouTube crowd
and that was prior to the YouTube apocalypse

585
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.920
that happened a year or so ago, and that was before they changed the

586
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:20.239
monetization. But that's another problem that
we can talk about. But there were

587
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.800
a lot of YouTubers who were making
money and we found you know, we

588
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.440
just said, let's go look at
the top ten YouTubers and see who's making

589
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.239
money and see what they're making.
And you know, as a kind of

590
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:36.400
a trained experienced filmmaker, it was
pretty shocking because I hadn't paid much attention

591
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.199
to YouTube. Stupid me, and
you kind of look at it, going,

592
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:43.719
wow, this stuff is popular.
Why, Well, you know,

593
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:45.159
we kind of figured with a couple
of things. It was probably because a

594
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:50.119
four year old sitting in the back
of mommy's suv hitting the iPad again and

595
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.880
again and again, and people were
making millions of dollars. There is this

596
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:59.280
one channel we found called Disney Collector, and this is an Hispanic woman with

597
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.920
really nice blame any fingernails, in
a really sweet sounding voice, who shows

598
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:09.719
you how to use Plato right,
Disney character Plato shit. And the woman

599
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:16.719
has now got two hundred and fifty
million views on one of her videos or

600
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:22.079
more, and she's purported to make
twelve million dollars a year or more from

601
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:27.280
her YouTube box. Okay, so
that's just a why an eye opener.

602
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:30.639
And then I looked at the other
end of the spectrum with Netflix, and

603
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:36.920
Netflix had not even started to I
mean, I don't even think Orange's New

604
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.679
Black had been produced twenty fifteen.
Yeah, maybe it was. I guess

605
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:45.039
they're going into season four at any
rates. And we started thinking, Okay,

606
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:50.280
well, we've got this distribution platform
that's actually starting to create content.

607
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:57.280
So what they're doing is they're aggregating
the rights to intellectual property at the top

608
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:01.719
of their organization, and producers who
used to make shows, own shows,

609
00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:07.639
and license shows to broadcasters are not
going to be able to do that for

610
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.639
very long. So it made me
kind of think. You know, the

611
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.559
term that I believe came to me
at the time was user generated content.

612
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:22.519
So you've got YouTubers making user generated
content, and you've got Netflix making user

613
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:27.599
generated content, but we're creators and
all of that. Well, in the

614
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:30.599
YouTube case, you've got one or
two people making this stuff. There aren't

615
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.679
very many teams of trained people doing
it, although there's lots of cool stuff

616
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.119
going on in YouTube right now.
But in the in the Netflix example,

617
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:45.840
basically creators were turned into workers.
So and that's not bad when the rates

618
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.239
are good and everything, but as
I understand it, you know, the

619
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.880
rates are dropping, and the people
that I know in markets where you know,

620
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:59.039
big platforms are making a lot of
content, the rates are static,

621
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:05.039
they're still installed, and even studio
owners and equipment rental houses are getting really

622
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:10.000
really pushed down a rate. So
basically, you know, everybody's making money

623
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:15.280
except Netflix, and people who want
a gig in this industry, you know,

624
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:21.599
they're really just looking for work and
they're being forced to take longer hour

625
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:27.719
days for less money and I'm not
saying that's happening everywhere. Lots of people

626
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.760
are gonna say, hey man,
that's not true where I am or whatever,

627
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.800
but it is true where a lot
of people are. Because through our

628
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.599
platform, I hear these people,
I know them, and they want a

629
00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:45.920
better deal. So I decided to
create a platform that was all about creators

630
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:53.519
being able to do user generated content
alone or in groups and gain access to

631
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:59.719
global markets, not have to sell
themselves as workers, but convert to being

632
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:04.360
owned of the content that they make, and take advantage of all the licensing

633
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:10.599
fees, long tail revenue, or
residuals, they're all the terms apply uh

634
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.559
and do better in their lives.
And we want to do that on a

635
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:20.559
global context where every creator all over
the world actually has the same access because

636
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:23.079
they have the same access to technology
and tools, but they don't have the

637
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:28.719
same access to markets and business systems. So what we designed as a platform

638
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:35.719
that is really has really captured and
automated all of the things that creators need

639
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.840
in order to work together to make
content, to co own the content,

640
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:44.559
and to share in the revenue streams
of it develop through these new digital platforms.

641
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.559
So we think it's really revolutionary.
So it's uh, you know,

642
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.599
you touched on YouTube and you know
I had friends who were creators who saw

643
00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:00.159
their their you know, their monestization, cut down some channels hell, or

644
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.679
even gotten into trouble with all the
new rules. You know. I have

645
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:06.280
another friend who's just getting back into
it and he has one of the top

646
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.480
YouTube channels ever, which is crazy. But just going back to black Box,

647
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:19.280
you know, it's you know,
it's allowing. So basically it's it's

648
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:22.199
cutting out the middleman essentially, you
know what I mean. It's you can

649
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:27.000
actually you know, go on there
and actually don't have to worry about you

650
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.440
know, selling. You don't trying
to say you basically could have the movement.

651
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:34.000
Yeah, but I think that can
help you understand a little bit.

652
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:38.079
But we're not cutting anybody out because
they're already cut out. Okay. Being

653
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:43.519
a producer is a much harder gain
because you have actually been turned into a

654
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:47.559
worker again. Now there are people
who are who are developing product as producers

655
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:52.320
and selling it to Netflix or licensing
to Netlex and that hasn't died, but

656
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:57.199
a lot of that business has gone
away. So what's happened is like people

657
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:01.400
that used to be producers, like
actual producers have become service producers. So

658
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:06.159
they're getting paid, you know,
by whoever their client is and they could

659
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:08.599
be ABC, NBC, it could
be Hulu, it could be Netflix,

660
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:14.519
could be anybody. They're getting paid
to manufacture the project for those companies,

661
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.679
not with them, right, So
that's really changed. So everybody all the

662
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:23.880
way down the line is now a
worker, and that would be fine as

663
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:30.039
long as as as the you know, the disruption wasn't happening where the rates

664
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:35.239
were dropping. So, I mean, it's bad enough that the business model

665
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:37.239
changed to the point where people,
you know, couldn't own their own content,

666
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:43.679
but the rates are going down.
So what does that mean for the

667
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:45.159
future, Well, you know,
it means we're going to have a commodified

668
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:51.280
labor market. Look at what happened
in visual effects, right. Visual effects.

669
00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:53.400
It used to go to LA and
you go down by Santa Monica Pier

670
00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:57.639
and there are all these nice two
three story buildings that were full of visual

671
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:01.840
effects asses. Well they're all gone
now. And there's a saying in Hollywood

672
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:07.960
amongst certain executive producers that goes like
this, if you haven't put a VFX

673
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:10.639
companies a company out of business,
on your film. You're not doing your

674
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:16.199
job right. So what's happening with
VFX companies? I mean when you go

675
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:22.760
and see blockbuster movies, now you
used to see like ILM would be in

676
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.559
there or whoever. Right, Well, now you see look at the end

677
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:30.800
credits. There are hundreds and hundreds
of people who employ in the VFX game,

678
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:37.280
but they're working for fifty companies,
right, So instead of seeing ILM

679
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.480
crew of two hundred people on the
end credit that, now you're seeing fifty

680
00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:46.199
companies with ten to fifteen people.
So what's happened there is that the VFX

681
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:51.559
companies have been divided and conquered into
smaller and smaller units. So now the

682
00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:57.679
producers, the big guys can actually
go in and hammer them on price a

683
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:00.639
little more effectively because they're playing them
all against each other. And I know

684
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:06.559
this sounds horribly cynical, and you
know, if there's a Netflix Exact listening,

685
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.840
you know, Hey, I'm just
coming from the creator perspective right where

686
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:15.440
I think that there's a better deal
for creators. The creators should and can

687
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:22.199
now have the ability to have their
piece of the pie and to have better

688
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.840
lives as a result of that,
and to be able to do the work

689
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:30.760
they do with a lot more freedom. You know, I created black Box

690
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:38.079
to have more freedom for me and
for my creator colleagues because we are special

691
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:43.400
people. You know. I call
it the creator class actually, and so

692
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:49.880
the creator class for me are people
who are talented, generous, kind,

693
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:58.079
hard working, resourceful, honest people. We'll be right back after a word

694
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:06.480
from our sponsor, and now back
to the show. And I would say

695
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:10.079
ninety nine percent of the people that
I know there are creators fall into those

696
00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:14.880
categories. So that means we're going
to get beat up as business people,

697
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:20.760
plain and simple. So what we
do is kind of give We create a

698
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:25.000
platform that's a safe haven that allows
creators to actually not worry about all that

699
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:30.800
business stuff because just like so many
other businesses, we want to automate a

700
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:35.360
lot of it so that there's not
a lot of backroom deals going on there.

701
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.760
The sharks can't play. You know. Basically, we've been a product

702
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:43.519
and we move it through a market, just like any other industry. Look

703
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.199
at the auto manufacturing industry, right
They've got this think called the supply chain.

704
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:50.920
And the supply chain means that all
these parts are created by all these

705
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:57.039
suppliers and brought together the assembly plant. And it has to be it has

706
00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:00.880
to be all coordinated properly. Well, you know what make movies no different

707
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:04.000
than building a car. It's a
supply chain. You had to bring all

708
00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.119
these resources together. They had to
happen at the right time. Budgets have

709
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:13.400
to be respected, and and then
you deliver to the customer. So what

710
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:17.719
I've done is created a platform that
allows creators to be part of the supply

711
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:24.079
chain and to own the end product
as they're moving along. So it's a

712
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:31.760
really it's a really big shift in
terms of an economic reality. We liken

713
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:37.199
it dave to a return to the
guild system. Uh, you know prior

714
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:45.960
to the Industrial Revolution, where guilds
actually had these inherent protections in place.

715
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:49.840
You know, if you were building
a cathedral and you need a stonework done,

716
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.440
you went to the Stonemasons. And
if you needed a bunch of pews

717
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:57.000
done and woodwork done in the church, you went to the carpenter's Guild.

718
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.920
And so what we are is a
creator's guild, and we're global, and

719
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:05.800
we're digital, and we are going
to change the face of the industry.

720
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:08.800
And I know exactly where you're coming
from by the way, about the VX.

721
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:14.000
About the VX situation, I actually
have a friend, I've actually had

722
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.119
friends who've worked in the industry,
and they were describing, you know,

723
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:20.480
pretty much what you just described as
well. But you know, black box

724
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:25.159
looks awesome. I'm all in favor
of anything that allows you know, creators,

725
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:30.360
good creators, to you know,
to share their stuff and to actually

726
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.519
get seen because you know, like
I've said before this podcast, the idea

727
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:37.920
of just uploading something to YouTube now
and saying, hey, it'll go viral

728
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:42.559
is like a one in a million
shot, and you can't rest anything on

729
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.559
that. That's not a business plan
for sure. Man. Well, you

730
00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:50.559
know, that's just that standard fragmentation. But we're working within a global context

731
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:54.760
and we're working within a digital platform
context. Nobody's done this before, so

732
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:59.239
no one really knows the rules.
But we do know that there is an

733
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:05.599
awful lot of money being aggregated at
the top of these multinational corporations. And

734
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.039
then you have to bring in the
idea that they are some of them are

735
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:14.880
publicly traded corporations, so that whole
dynamic is very different too. So who

736
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:19.760
end up who ends up getting caught
in Avice are the individual creators because in

737
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:23.320
fact, as these companies blew apart, you know, big company with forty

738
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:29.719
people, right, and that company
is pretty much gone now. So the

739
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:35.679
protections that were afforded to the workers
within that relationship they had with me as

740
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:39.920
their boss, they're on their own
now, right. So what we're doing

741
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.039
is we're actually saying, look,
we don't want to aggregate these people back

742
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.159
into a company again, but we
want to have a platform that performs those

743
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:52.880
functions for them, that allows them
to have a little more predictability and security

744
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:58.400
in their life. So, and
I should tell you that we analyzed the

745
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.360
market and we said, look,
ultimately, we want black boxers, we

746
00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.960
call them black boxers, to be
able to do the work they love to

747
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.960
do. So if they are they
want to work on feature films and they're

748
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:14.840
a gaffer, we want them and
they love being a gaffer, Who want

749
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:19.719
them to be able to be a
gaffer on a great feature film on regular

750
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.239
work. And if they're an actress, who want them to be an actress.

751
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:23.480
And if they're a musician, we
want them to be a composer.

752
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:27.480
We want them to be able to
do what they love to do. So

753
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.119
what we allow them to do is
come together into groups of like minded creators

754
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:37.920
and make the project they want to
make. That is that has a lot

755
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:42.840
more creative freedom for everybody. Now, not a lot of not most,

756
00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:45.920
sorry, not most. A lot
of people they just want the gig and

757
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:47.559
they want to get paid, and
they want to go home, and they

758
00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:50.280
want to be safe, and they
want to make money, and they want

759
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.320
to take care of their families.
And that's that's never going to end.

760
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:57.320
But we offer an alternative to people
who, you know, kind of feel

761
00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:00.719
that desire to really be involved in
something that takes a lot of craft,

762
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:05.800
a lot of love, and ends
up being a very valuable product. So

763
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.480
I'm going to give you an example. Moonlight won the Academy Award two years

764
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:15.519
ago. And Moonlight was made for
reputedly one hundred and fifty dollars, sorry,

765
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:20.880
one point five million bucks, and
then there was a big marketing budget,

766
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:23.960
well not big five million, probably
the one against it. So Moonlight

767
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:29.719
ends up getting a theatrical run that
did well, and then they ended up

768
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:35.119
doing very well on vod and cable
and they won an Academy Award. But

769
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:38.559
I have to wonder, Okay,
this movie is going to make one hundred

770
00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:44.599
and fifty million dollars after production net. Who's getting that money? Is it

771
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:47.800
the people that sacrificed their rate,
showed up, did the extra hours,

772
00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:52.960
put the love into it, and
made the movie, or is it somebody

773
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:57.519
else? Well, I think we
all know the answer. Is it somebody

774
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:02.639
else? So what if My question
is, what if a group of filmmakers

775
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:09.280
could come together make a product like
Moonlight and now the budget is not going

776
00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:13.519
to be one point five million because
no one's getting paid. You're doing it

777
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:17.159
in kind for ownership in the movie. And then if you've got some fixed

778
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:21.840
costs. But we can bring everybody
into this scenario. Studio owners that are

779
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.679
getting squeezed can actually let us use
the studio for a piece of the movie.

780
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:30.679
Camera department. Maybe they've got two
year old cameras that aren't being rented

781
00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:32.400
for full price anymore that they'll put
on the movie, for a piece of

782
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:40.519
the action craft, anybody, anybody
involved, location owners, transport the works,

783
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:44.000
and you're still gonna have some fixed
costs. So now you can make

784
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.920
the movie for a really good movie
for two or three hundred thousand dollars or

785
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:53.159
less. It all depends on what
your consumables are. So now you make

786
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:58.920
the movie great and it's owned by
the people that made it. Okay,

787
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:01.280
this is a key thing. Now, if that movie goes out and it

788
00:57:01.320 --> 00:57:07.159
makes one hundred and fifty million dollars
net after distribution or whatever, okay,

789
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.079
And you can even bring a marketing
team in to be part of your group,

790
00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:14.039
so you don't have to go pay
for marketing. You can find a

791
00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:15.480
marketing group and say, do you
want to be part of this? Right?

792
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:20.320
Anybody can be part of it.
The distribution people can be part of

793
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:24.079
it. So you create this wonderful
waterfall saying, okay, all these dollars

794
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:28.800
that come in, they're all going
pro rata to the people that own the

795
00:57:28.840 --> 00:57:34.320
property. And by my math,
on a one point five million dollar feature

796
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.519
that does one hundred and fifty million
dollars net after distribution over a period of

797
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:45.440
time, because it's longtail money and
that's how money gets made on distribution platforms.

798
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:50.559
Now everyone would get paid one hundred
times the rate. Good. Bad?

799
00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:54.400
What do you think that sounds a
good trade off? Yeah? Man,

800
00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:59.599
So where we started is saying we're
going to dream big right at black

801
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:01.840
Box. We're in a dream big. We're gonna say we want to make

802
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:07.320
blockbuster feature films. We would love
to be able to make a Black Panther

803
00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:12.920
in five years and have all the
people that made the movie get a really

804
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.719
nice paycheck, right because they deserve
it. We love these people. They

805
00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:22.400
need they need this opportunity because right
now it's just it's not working out so

806
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:27.800
good. Right, So that's our
dream, but we couldn't start there,

807
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:34.239
so we decided to build our platform
in a smaller, more highly defined marketing

808
00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:39.760
nuts this stock foot market. So
currently our platform servance is start footage.

809
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:44.360
So what you can do is you
can take your camera right now, like

810
00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:47.159
you're a camera guy, right dad? Yeah? Okay, do you own

811
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:51.079
your own gear? Yeah? I
have it right here. Actually it's actually

812
00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:52.039
right behind me. You can't see
it because it's a podcast, but yeah,

813
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.159
it's right about it. So what
kind of camera you're on? I

814
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:00.039
have a canon rebel. I think
it's the was it sixty to seventy?

815
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:06.760
Okay, So let's say you've got
a sixty You could probably walk out of

816
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:09.800
where you are right now, and
it's not daylight there anymore. So let's

817
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:14.239
say you get up in the morning
and go for a walk and you see

818
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:17.519
something beautiful that you want to capture, so you do it, and then

819
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:22.360
you see something else that you want
to capture maybe you know whatever. And

820
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.960
this is a very simple example,
mind you. So but you can then

821
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:32.400
go home and you can actually curate
that into five very nice clips. You

822
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:36.159
can put them up to our platform. We'll take them out to all the

823
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:40.239
big stock agencies, and when the
money comes, it returns to black Box

824
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:45.760
and then we take fifteen percent of
the net sale and we deliver the rest

825
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:50.519
to you. So basically, it's
an upload once get to many scheme.

826
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:54.159
Now, let's say you go back
to your house and you say, oh,

827
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:59.840
I don't really don't want to edit
this, pat We'll be right back

828
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:07.440
after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. You

829
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.280
want to edit this, and you
call me up and say you want to

830
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:13.159
edit my clips. I'm like,
yeah, sure, I'll do it for

831
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:16.800
thirty percent and you go, okay, deal thirty percent. So now you

832
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:22.239
can upload those clips to black Box
or send me sorry, send me the

833
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.760
raw, and I will actually edit
them, upload them, tag them and

834
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:31.360
do the metadata and then when and
then when the money comes, black Box

835
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:35.840
auto automatically pays me my share,
and you automatically get paid your share.

836
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.719
You don't touch my money. I
don't touch your money. Or another option

837
01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:42.960
is you want to edit, but
you hate doing the metadata, you hate

838
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:45.519
doing the keywords and the descriptions and
all that. So you can actually edit

839
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:50.360
them, upload them and then hand
off to me and I'll do the metadata

840
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.400
and I'll do it for fifteen percent. So that's what we built and it

841
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:58.880
actually works. So we've got thousands
of people all over the world doing this.

842
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.440
I just project go through where a
guy in South Africa had seven hundred

843
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:07.880
clips. He put him up on
the platform and he assigned the curation to

844
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:13.519
metadata curation to a woman here in
Ottawa where I live actually, who's a

845
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:21.119
very good editor. So now we've
got this international collaboration going and it all

846
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:24.360
happens within our platform. So that's
where we started. And our next move

847
01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:30.800
is into short form and long form
and you can do YouTube videos this way.

848
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:32.719
So, like I said earlier,
a lot of YouTubers they want to

849
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:36.280
do everything themselves because they want to
keep the money right like, and they

850
01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:38.519
don't know what they're going to make, and it's like it's all freaking everybody

851
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:42.440
out. Well what have you said? Well, why don't we do this

852
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:46.000
as a team. Why don't we
actually do some produced content where we actually

853
01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:50.480
use real writer, real director,
real you know, real, real,

854
01:01:50.559 --> 01:01:57.360
real and everybody worse together and make
some product that's watchable and then you put

855
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:01.599
it to black Box and we manage
the whole process of getting into audience and

856
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:07.679
then dividing a revenue. And it
works. I mean, that's all I

857
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:10.280
have to say. It works,
It works really really well. And then

858
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:16.559
as we grow, we're going to
take on bigger projects indie films. Right

859
01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:22.639
now, if there are indie filmmakers
that have had no luck distributing their film,

860
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:27.320
you can contact me and I will
find a way to get your film

861
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:30.880
onto our platform. You will have
to go back and figure out who did

862
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.280
what on the movie, so you
can make sure that everybody gets compensated when

863
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:38.840
the money comes. And then we
will, through our developing relationships with distribution

864
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:45.360
and VOD, will have a good
chance of getting your movie seen. So

865
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:50.920
this is what we're trying to do. And you know, I think that's

866
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:52.360
great. Too bad, I mean, you mentioned you mentioned Black Panther.

867
01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:59.599
I'm always in favor of the movies
like Black Moonlight Where or movies like obviously

868
01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:02.000
The Blair which or Paranormal Activity.
You know, those movies that come out

869
01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:06.480
of left field that just you know, go they go ape shit. You

870
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.519
know, My big fat Greek Wedding. You know these movies that are shot

871
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:14.199
for like twenty thousand dollars and they
have a pretty good return, you know.

872
01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:15.239
And you know, just just as
we talk about, you know,

873
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:19.400
gear and producers and stuff. You
know, I went at a friend of

874
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:22.679
mine who was going to make a
movie for ten grand and this this person

875
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:27.320
who owned a rental house got a
hold of them and he came back heck

876
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:29.960
to tell me. He goes,
Dave, I can't do it for ten

877
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:34.480
thousand anymore. I need a quarter
of a million. And I said,

878
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:37.119
well, I said, no,
you don't. I said, love of

879
01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:38.519
God, you don't need a co
I've read a script. He did not

880
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:42.039
need a quarter of a million dollars. He could have done it for ten

881
01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:46.039
thousand dollars at the max because it
only took place in one room. There

882
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:52.000
was no stunts or explosives. There's
no squibs, there's nothing. There's no

883
01:03:52.039 --> 01:03:54.320
famous people that were needed or we're
going to be in it. So I

884
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:59.480
was like, man, just just
don't even worry about that stuff. Well,

885
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:02.400
you know, the whole point here
is that making a good Like you

886
01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:04.760
can make a movie. Anybody can
make a movie. I got an iPhone,

887
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:08.360
I can make a movie right now, Like, no problem, right,

888
01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:11.320
But are you going to make a
movie that's going to be compelling that

889
01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:15.239
someone's going to want to watch?
And yeah, you can bank on having

890
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:19.480
the next Blair Witch or whatever.
But I believe that for the same reasons

891
01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:26.920
that our labor market have disrupted,
we have an army of young filmmakers who

892
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:30.239
are actually quite talented and capable who
are coming along. But the problem is

893
01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:36.000
they're trying to do it all themselves, Like they're trying to self produce,

894
01:04:36.639 --> 01:04:42.320
self make, and self distribute movies. And I think that that's a missed

895
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:46.320
opportunity because when we put together,
when we put groups of talented people together,

896
01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:50.039
it makes for better product. And
when we work together and we try

897
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:55.239
to develop platforms like black Box that
help people do the business end, which

898
01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:58.960
is often where things fall apart.
Right Like for example, you know,

899
01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:01.199
I make a movie for ten grand
and I call in all the favors in

900
01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:06.440
town. Right, Well, if
that movie ends up going viral and I

901
01:05:06.519 --> 01:05:10.960
make I don't know two and a
half million dollars on it, how much

902
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:13.199
that money is going to go back
to the people that helped me. There

903
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:17.440
are no deals in place, there's
no structure, there's no system, and

904
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:21.000
it's very likely that those people aren't
going to get paid because they did it

905
01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:27.199
as a favor. Right, So
what black Box does is eliminates the favors.

906
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:31.280
We don't do favors, and we
don't do deferrals. No one ever

907
01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:34.280
gets paid on deferral. You know
anyone that's ever been paid on deferral.

908
01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:40.880
It's a big joke, true.
I know Hollywood actors, you know who

909
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:44.079
I talked to, Like, I
was talking to a guy named Martin Cove

910
01:05:44.679 --> 01:05:48.280
who was the Sin Say and the
Karate Kid, and Martin's a great guy,

911
01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:50.679
and I said, hey, Martin, how many deferrals have you ever

912
01:05:50.679 --> 01:05:54.840
been paid on? He just laughed, he laughed, He said, no,

913
01:05:55.039 --> 01:06:00.119
people don't get paid on deferrals.
And he's bullish on black Box act

914
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:02.679
Like, there's a lot of actors
in Hollywood that'll do this because it's not

915
01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:06.920
a deferral and it's not a favor. And it's not a rate reduction either.

916
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:13.679
It's a fair share of the movie
that you make. So if it

917
01:06:13.800 --> 01:06:15.880
makes money, and when it makes
money, you get paid your share.

918
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:20.760
Our system is guaranteed to pay you. So, guy that wants to do

919
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:25.480
a ten thousand dollars movie, I
would say, make a million dollar movie,

920
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:29.599
but make sure it's all in kind, and then your fixed costs will

921
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:33.039
only be ten thousand dollars if you
happen to have to buy some squibs.

922
01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:38.199
So bring the rental house in as
a partner, bring the studio in as

923
01:06:38.199 --> 01:06:41.480
a partner, Bring the locations in
as a partner, Bring the actors in,

924
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.800
bring the crew in, bring everybody
in as a partner. I mean,

925
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:46.880
even to the point where you're making
an Indian you say, you know,

926
01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:50.360
well, we're not catering is bring
your own lunch, right, and

927
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:55.920
make a great movie and capture the
passion of all those people, and get

928
01:06:55.920 --> 01:07:00.000
the best people involved, right,
Like, don't get your cousin to hold

929
01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:03.920
the boom, get a sound guy
to do it, get somebody who's really

930
01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:08.039
good at it to do it.
And then guess what you're going to have

931
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:12.400
usable audio and post right, and
your movie is not going to sound like

932
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:15.480
crap, and you can get yourself
a decent composer. And you know,

933
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:18.159
it just goes on and on and
on and on and on. And we

934
01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:21.000
learned all of this through the stock
footage thing, because you know, what

935
01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:26.599
we see. We see people who
are learning faster, doing better work,

936
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:30.360
and making more money. We've got
people actually on our platform right now who

937
01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:34.159
are getting ready to quit their jobs
and they're not taking gigs anymore because they're

938
01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:40.719
making enough money off of their stock
footage portfolio to float their boat. And

939
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:43.840
now what they're doing is they're saying, great, I'm floating my boat from

940
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.760
my stock work, so I'm going
to go make my movie now, and

941
01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:50.199
they're going to make it using a
black box or at the black box platform.

942
01:07:51.159 --> 01:07:54.159
I know, it's a big idea, Like a lot of people are

943
01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:57.280
sitting out there in your audience right
going, what the hell is Pat talking

944
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.039
about? If I don't get this
at all? Right, But because it

945
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:03.960
is a huge, huge shift,
it's an absolute it's a paradigm shift.

946
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:09.079
Like it's revolutionary. And I'm not
saying that because you know, hey,

947
01:08:09.159 --> 01:08:12.239
you know Pats and smart guy,
he did a revolutionary thing. I actually

948
01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:16.520
did this so that I could have
a better life facing a disruptive market.

949
01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:21.359
And I did it so that my
peeps, the creators who I know,

950
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:27.960
could have a better life too.
And we did it as well so that

951
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:31.000
the guy living in Nairobi, which
is a bad place to be right now

952
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:35.039
with all the flooding, but the
guy living in Nairobi could go out and

953
01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:44.159
capture images of all the wonderful natural
beauty in Nairobi are in Kenya, as

954
01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:46.239
opposed to having a bund of white
guys flying in on a plane with an

955
01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:51.119
area alexa and leave with all the
imagery and all the guy got was in

956
01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:58.720
his porter feet. So we could
actually go in and train that guy and

957
01:08:58.840 --> 01:09:01.960
maybe even helping get a quick so
that he can be the content creator because

958
01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:08.119
he's possibly very talented. So we're
going to liberate a lot of creators using

959
01:09:08.119 --> 01:09:13.159
this platform, and we're gonna flatten
out the world, and we're gonna make

960
01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:16.680
it a fair deal. Yeah.
And when you were talking about everyone getting

961
01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:21.239
paid deferrals and stuff like that,
it always reminds me of what they call

962
01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:25.880
the Hollywood accounting side of things,
where you know, uh, you know,

963
01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:29.000
people get points in the movie never
terms of profits, so you never

964
01:09:29.039 --> 01:09:31.399
see those points. But when you
were you were talking about black Box,

965
01:09:31.439 --> 01:09:34.079
Pat, I, you know,
all of this, you know makes sense

966
01:09:34.119 --> 01:09:39.720
to me. It sounds like a
really really really cool platform where people can

967
01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:43.680
actually collectively get together. And if
you do decide to hire this DP or

968
01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:45.720
hire this person or hire this whatever, you know, people will get you

969
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:50.520
know, people now are bounded to
to to get paid rather than deferrals or

970
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:57.199
like you know, you promises or
you know whatever. We'll be right back

971
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:05.000
after a word from our sponsor and
now back to the show which I I

972
01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:10.119
which sometimes by the way, you
know, I just want to mention I've

973
01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:13.199
seen that getting people into a lot
of trouble before it too. Deferrals.

974
01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:16.720
Uh, you know, I actually
had a project that that that I saw,

975
01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:21.479
I wasn't involved in, and feelings
were let out on Facebook, and

976
01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:25.680
you know how what happens then patted
just snowballs, and all of a sudden

977
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:29.920
you have people young at each other
on social media. Exactly. It just

978
01:10:29.960 --> 01:10:33.960
gets ugly, exactly. You know. Well, you know the one the

979
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:39.159
one point I would like to leave
people people with is that you can work

980
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:45.119
or you can earn. Okay,
So black Box allows people to earn.

981
01:10:45.079 --> 01:10:50.079
It converts you from being a worker
into an earner and an owner of the

982
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:55.760
content that you make. It's like, it's like, you know, there's

983
01:10:55.800 --> 01:10:58.880
lots of good analogies out there.
I think farming is a good analogy.

984
01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:02.760
Do you want to be a paid
farm worker getting a low rate or do

985
01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:06.479
you want to be a sharecropper and
own part of the product that goes out?

986
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:11.359
You know. And so what we're
creating is an environment where you have

987
01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:16.000
that choice because nobody works in black
Box there. It's not a job,

988
01:11:16.039 --> 01:11:20.399
it's not a gig, not at
all. Actually, it's very different.

989
01:11:21.039 --> 01:11:26.560
And just so everybody knows, the
website is www Dot black box, dot

990
01:11:26.680 --> 01:11:30.439
global. It's not a dot com, it's a dot global. So www

991
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.119
dot blackbox, dot global. I
had to throw that in there. Date

992
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:36.600
and you know, come to the
website, check it out. See what

993
01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:42.960
you think. It doesn't cost anything
to join this. If you do join,

994
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:45.800
you know, we want to see
you get active and we're going to

995
01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:48.479
try to help you do that.
But it's not free candy. Like you

996
01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:54.520
got to work. You got to
do the work, and you know there's

997
01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:56.800
stuff that you have to do.
You got to make content. You got

998
01:11:56.800 --> 01:11:59.199
to edit it, you got to
curate it, you got to upload it.

999
01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:02.439
But if you're trying to go to
five stock footage libraries right now,

1000
01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:08.720
you've got to upload five times and
it is not fun work. So we

1001
01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:12.800
take that whole adgro out for you. And then if you're trying to share

1002
01:12:12.880 --> 01:12:16.800
revenue with a collaborator, you know, like, for instance, if you

1003
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:20.600
want to do a shoot tomorrow with
three models in a cafe, you could

1004
01:12:20.600 --> 01:12:24.960
actually instead of having to pay the
cafe and the models, you could say

1005
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:27.600
to the model in the cafe and
find people who are willing to do this

1006
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:31.359
to take a share of the revenue
or the footage. Awesome. And we

1007
01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:34.640
got a lot of people doing this. We have a member that did a

1008
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:42.199
cool shoot in a hospital and did
a whole bunch of medical stuff and everybody

1009
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:45.880
is getting paid on a share basis. So you see these little micro transactions

1010
01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:49.239
going through, but it adds up. It really does. Like a lot

1011
01:12:49.239 --> 01:12:54.479
of the stuff that I've done,
I've been lucky. You know, I'm

1012
01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:59.119
not a genius cinematographer or anything,
but i know what I'm doing and I've

1013
01:12:59.159 --> 01:13:02.000
done a lot and lots of shoots
where I go out for a week and

1014
01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:08.439
do wildlife stuff where I would have
gotten paid anywhere from six to ten thousand

1015
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:14.199
dollars for the week if I was
working for a network, and my projection

1016
01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:18.640
on some of those shoots is one
hundred thousand dollars to me because the market

1017
01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:24.800
is so the market demand is so
high for that type of footage, So

1018
01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:30.119
like you can make your day rate
over a period of years using black Box,

1019
01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:32.199
or you can make five to ten
times your day rate or more.

1020
01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:40.239
And we've got lots of examples of
that, some really spectacular examples of people

1021
01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:44.079
making a lot more money doing this
than they would get on a game.

1022
01:13:45.039 --> 01:13:49.279
So it's it's looking really really promising. We're really excited, and we really

1023
01:13:49.319 --> 01:13:54.319
want to help them as many creators
in I mean dative. I'm going to

1024
01:13:54.359 --> 01:13:58.399
invite you to join budd to go
to the website and register, and maybe

1025
01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:00.680
you got a bunch of clotes you
want to throw up there and h and

1026
01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:03.560
be part of the community. And
that's another thing about this. We've got

1027
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:08.560
We've got a great community. Feel
like we have a Facebook group for members

1028
01:14:08.720 --> 01:14:13.560
where it's the least toxic Facebook group
I've ever seen. It's almost too nice.

1029
01:14:14.439 --> 01:14:18.960
And everybody is so cooperative and supportive
and is getting into the spirit of

1030
01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:24.239
what we're trying to do because it's
black Box is not a doggy dog world.

1031
01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:28.119
It's a place where we're all in
it together. And when we when

1032
01:14:28.239 --> 01:14:32.159
when one person succeeds, everybody succeeds, you know. And I'm going to

1033
01:14:32.239 --> 01:14:34.800
link to all that in the show
notes everybody, and I'm going to check

1034
01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:38.640
it out. I'm dead serious,
Pat. I also want to check out

1035
01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:43.119
this non toxic Facebook group because I
have one myself and I keep it.

1036
01:14:43.159 --> 01:14:45.960
I'm the moderator, so it's always
kept non toxic. But I've never seen

1037
01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:50.000
anybody else have a non toxic Facebook
Facebook group because usually it the voids into

1038
01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.920
something. And funny enough, it's
usually screenwriting Facebook groups that go bed fans

1039
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:00.960
and I've seen the fights and I've
seen everything else. Man, But you

1040
01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:03.199
know, I was going to ask
you where if you'll find you out online,

1041
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:06.039
but you you know, you know
I will make sure to link to

1042
01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:10.840
that. You you already gave the
r L. But I'm going to link

1043
01:15:10.880 --> 01:15:14.680
to that and everything else we talked
about everyone in the show notes at Dave

1044
01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:17.359
Bullis dot com. Pat, I
want to say thank you so much for

1045
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:21.760
coming on. Man, it's been
a real pleasure. No, you're a

1046
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:25.319
great interviewer, so thanks for that. Well, thank you, Matt,

1047
01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:29.520
you know, thanks for letting me
talk about black Box. Oh my pleasure.

1048
01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:31.319
Pat, and you know, let's
talk again real soon. You got

1049
01:15:31.319 --> 01:15:35.039
it, brother, Thanks a million. I want to thank Dave so much

1050
01:15:35.119 --> 01:15:38.319
for doing such a great job on
this episode. If you want to get

1051
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.000
links to anything we spoke about in
this episode, head over to the show

1052
01:15:41.000 --> 01:15:45.720
notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash three thirty nine. Thank you

1053
01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:48.159
so much for listening to guys.
As always, keep on writing no matter

1054
01:15:48.199 --> 01:15:53.119
what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting

1055
01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:56.199
podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.