Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. My goodness,
being Franklin, where the only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone,
and welcome to being frank We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm
your host, Frank Lebanon, and i'd like to thank you for joining us
on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where no conversation is
out of bounds and all points of view are welcome. We are recording live
to tape of the day before Independence Day, so it's July third. We
give you that for a little context, and we're so glad that you'll join
us for our celebration of Independence Day. Stony Point, New York is the
tiny town where we stream this podcast. It is located in Rockland County,
geographically the smallest county in the state outside of New York City, but relax
in size, this county more than makes up for the amount of important in
American history, particularly Revolutionary War history, that occurred here. From the Old
seventy six House in Japan, America's oldest tavern that hosted the likes of Washington
and Hamilton, to the Benedict Arnold Treason site to the Battle Stony Point,
one of the colonial's earliest and most important victories. Few places of any size
can match the sheer volume of Revolutionary War sites found in Rockland County in American
history in Rockland didn't end with the Revolution. Places like cam Shanks and Orangeburg
and the Piermont Pierre played vital roles in our victory in World War Two,
and there is so much more. So to get to it is. Joining
me now is my guest, former Rockland County Executive and former president of the
Rockland Historical Society, Scott Vanderhoff, as we celebrate our nation's birth by discussing
these places and the critical roles they played in our history. Welcome again,
Scott, Thank you for joining us once again here on being Frank am my
pleasure. Frank, good to see you. You know, before we get
into all the sites, and there were so many, and I do want
to spend as much time as possible on the sites. A couple of questions
I'd like to ask first to give a little contacts and relativity. First of
all, what does the fourth mean to you? What is most important about
this day to you? Oh? Gee, well, I mean I think
we forget the importance and the drama of folks saying, you know what,
we are independent. We're not going to be part of Great Britain and declare
itself. And on July fourth, seventeen seventy four, you probably know,
Frank, the Orangetown Resolutions right here in Rocklin County was a precursor to the
declaration of independence. So, I mean, I think it's just, you
know, for all the things that the country is, the goods, the
in betweens, what have you, I mean, aside from the fireworks and
you know, the fun. The idea that we suddenly said, you know
what, we're not going to be part of an overbearing country. We are
ourselves and we are independent. I mean, it's just so cool, I
think. Yeah, and the slogan we shall serve no King, which is
something we could discuss a little bit more in the second part of our conversation
after the break. I think it's important because you know, and they always
say, you know, American democracy is an experiment, one that we have
to actively participate in, and of course that's the vote. We'll talk a
little bit more about that, but you can see how in the two hundred
and forty plus years of this country. It's not a static place. We
evolve and we continue to evolve. Do you think Americans get that message and
they in tune with that? You know, that's a that's a very interesting
I think is one looks at the news, reads the news, looks at
your phone, looks at information. It's sometimes hard to know if Americans are
focusing on that or whether eggs prices have gone up. And it's not that
the eggs price hasn't gone up, it's just that sometimes I think, I
think we forget our history and in doing so, we jeopardize our future.
And by that, I mean we have to understand the importance of why we
are where we are and the good, bad, and and different. You
know, I mean we really we need to understand that. That's why I
think history is so important. It's not that you it's not for an exam,
you know, it's to understand the context, even on information and things
that we go through day by day today. And I want to get off
on a tangent because this is about some of the honoring some of the great
sites here in Rockland County, and we will get to them, but you
know, I think with that mind how important it is for Americans to focus
and to be involved. And again people always said, I mean, Franklin
always said, you know, if you don't work with your democracy, are
going to lose it. So I think that's an important message that we have
to give to people today. And part of reliving art history is to is
to say and part of it. And I think from some of the stories
that you'll present the great sacrifice that was made to get us to this point
today. Yeah, and I think fundamentally, you know, whether you whether
you decide to vote or not, is important. But it's not It's not
just the voting, it's the opportunity to vote that that really strikes one as
being critical. And if if someone doesn't take advantage of it, well,
so be it. But it's unfortunate because it's that opportunity to determine who will
lead and how we live from from our towns and villages to the nation.
And we can thank July fourth, seventeen seventy six in large measure, and
before that, the Orangstoin Resolutions, before that talking about the need for independence,
and we're going to talk about the place where that occurred. One of
the most historic taverns, the oldest tavern in America, the seventy six House,
and Tapan we'll talk about in a minute. But while we're there,
we're talking about Tapan, why don't we start there. Great this incredible little
village in the southern, very southern tip of Rockland County, right on the
edge of Bergen County in New Jersey, so it's kind of right on the
border. But there are for such a small place, it's always struck me
as how many deeply historic sites there are there. Let's start with Washington's headquarters
and throughout the Hudson Valley because in general it was such an important strategic area.
Washington had many headquarters, including the DeWint House, which is in Tapan,
New York. So let's talk a little bit about that. Believe it's
still the oldest house structure still in existence in Rockland County. But tell us
about it, well, I mean it's certainly, and you know it's for
its importance. One wonders if people know enough about it. I mean,
it was built in seventeen hundred. And of course all of tap Han has
a series of things which we'll cover in a second here. But the Washington's
headquarters is particularly important. The building was built in seventeen hundred, but Washington
spent several times periods there and during the Revolutionary War. But what I think's
really fascinating is it is there in Tappan, New York that the British gave
up New York City and essentially the end of the war right in Tappan.
Fellow by the name of Sir Guy Charlton. Carlton gave up essentially in New
York City in Tappan, New York to Washington, George Washington, which ended
both the occupation and the end of the British and control of the United States
as we've come to know it. And in the first ever a salute to
the New Country took place in an area called the Tappan Z. That is
not the bridge, is the tap and Z area of the Hunt area that
time, when you get into arguments the name of the bridge, the whole
area is the Tappan called the Z and for good reason, because it's the
Tappan Tappan indigenous tribes that controlled much of Nayak and Tapan and what have you
in that area part of the Lenape, Indiana. But I'm moving off what
I wanted to say is the seventeen gun salute took place in the Hudson River
for the first time ever coming from Washington's headquarters. And of course, you
know a hop and a jump you get to the seventy six House, which
is a whole another story. Well, let's continue with Tapan And and it's
one of my favorite places. And if people have never been there, it's
literally a one stoplight town. That's what's amazing about how tiny it is.
But there's so much history there. There's from the seventy six House, which
was Maybe's tavern. We mentioned it's still a tavern. It still operates.
From the seventeen sixties. It housed Washington Hamilton, the signing of the Orangetown
Resolutions, the precursors, but also very famously held the trial of Major Andre
who was the British end of the Benedict Arnold Treeson plot. The church where
the trial took places across the street. That the wind house up just down
the block where Washington State and the execution site is again just up the block.
All with stop site. Well, it's a bill in Africa we got
to get to as well. Yeah, but the seventy sixth House was actually
the prison. The trial was held in the church, which is a different
church than was there, but in the same location. But the prison was
seventy six House where Midjor John Andre was by the way, you know,
I mean folks who maybe they forget, but John Andre was captured having left
Benedict Donald at West Point with the plans for West Point, he wanted to
give it to the British so that they could take over. Benedict Donald,
of course wanted to become a famous both English officer as well as having having
been American. Anyway, he was caught with and this is I never I'd
forgotten this, but Benedict Donald told him to wear right regular clothes because that
way his trip to New York City where the British were, he would not
be caught. Well, it be caught. It was caught, and he
was in regular clothes. And of course a lot of folks, including Alexander
Hamilton, after he was found guilty of holding those West Point plans, wanted
him to be shot as an officer of the British Army. George Washington absolutely
refused and said he was caught with his regular regular shows regular clothes on and
therefore was hung on a hill not far from the seventy sixth else right up
the road. So I mean, it's just interesting tidbits. By the way,
Major John Andre was very much liked by a number of Americans for different
reasons, but he also was one who helped map so they British in fact
attacked. This is important to get on briefly in a place called Baylor's Massacre.
If you get so perfect lead and yes, please take it there a
little. But it also how bitter this conflict was. People didn't realize.
I think they had this idea that was almost like a gentlemanly war. It
was far from that. Well, not this one particular. You can find
the you can find the note down there just over the border. Baylor's Massacre
occurred in the middle of the night, and the British came in slaughtered a
Aerican soldiers either fifteen or sixteen immediately killed in some other And that's important not
just because of the horror of it was allowed by John Andre's maps, who
was a map maker of all things that to begin with, But more importantly
what happened thereafter is that because of Baylor's massacre when med Anthony Wayne attacks Stony
Point. And that's another piece we'll get to We're going to get to you.
Yes, he actually said, you know, do not kill Let's not
kill them, Let's show them. Let's show these Brits who in fact of
the humane folks in this war. And he captured five hundred or more of
those soldiers who are at Stony Point. And of course Tony Point being one
of the great I'm sure you have on your list there, one of the
great places historic places in Rockland. Well, perfect segue. We wear the
southern tip of Rockland, and we said it's geographically a tiny place, the
smallest county outside of New York City, which is the city, county,
and state of New York Rockland, the smallest. Besides that said, we're
in the southern port, which is just on the northern end of Boergon County,
New Jersey. Let's move all the way to its northern extreme in Stony
Point. And we mentioned that that's where our signal emance from Stony Point,
New York. And again a very tiny little hamlet. Maybe more than one
stops but stop signing or stop light, but not manymore. And a little
known very important, very pitottle battle early in the war happened there at Stony
Point. Talk a little bit about that. Well, in fact it was
a British held fort. Mad Anthony Wayne and the team today midnight type of
raid, surprise the whole place. By the way, one of the fellows
who allowed that to take place, just diverted the guards just enough. He
was a friend of the guards. He was an African American who was apparently
working with them, and just averted them enough so they the Americans could take
over the fort, and in fact did take over the fort. You remembery
and folks will remember. The Hudson River becomes a very critical piece that Revolutionary
War. It's like the Great Ocean because there are no bridges. I mean,
you know, you get across by boat, and any place that you
can have a fortress of that sort, particularly given New York City was controlled
largely by the Britz, was very important. So yeah, it was a
big battle. As I say, we captured five hundred. There were deaths,
but the bayonets were stowed because of Baylor's massacre and the desire of met
Anthony Wayne. By the way, right next to if you go up there
to Stony Point nine. Encourage your viewers to do so. It's a great
place to tour. You know, it's nationally known. And right next to
Stony Point is a place called King's Ferry. King's Ferry is a little spot,
but if you look at a map you'll see the Stony Point right there
is one of the narrowest areas of the Hudson River, and that spot King's
Ferry allowed French and colonial troops to march across ro County down through what is
now known as three h three Western Highway, down through what was two two
down to a place called Yorktown, from King's Ferry down to Yorktown, and
of course, in nineteen eighty or seventeen eighty one, the end of the
British I mean at the end of the battles. So just that little place,
that Stony Point and kings Ferry are very very important places in the history
of Rockland. Now you mentioned and I think it's a good time to segue.
You've mentioned the Lenapes, the local indigenous people here, and we've had
Chief Perry has been on and one of the things he mentions is they're key
in the Ramapop Pass and control of the Ramopop Pass and usage of it with
Native American guides, the Lenape, who helped French and American troops also move
from the Ramapo Mountain area safe through and through the Hudson. In other words,
it was another very important artery in the Revolutionary War, and in particular
aided by the Native Americans in the area. Talk a little bit of bit
now about the Ramapole Pass. Well, the Ramapop Pass, whereas you was
known as Sidmund's Clove. It's the only way that you can get from here
to Albany without the river. In those days, there was no other way
that that was the past. So Sidmund's Clove, now the Ramapop Pass became
a critical juncture. Washington, George Washington and his troops were up there,
stationed in what we're now known as the Torn Valley, and that whole area
Mahwa Slowsburg was like Cowboy Area. I mean it was you really had no
way around because it wasn't controlled by either the British or the Americans per se.
But the pass itself became very critical, which is why Washington's troop did
troops were stationed in the Torn Valley to make sure that things who go smoothly.
And oh, by the way, it was a wonderful because it was
so and we're talking about suffering and that whole area of that area. If
one goes there and look now, all of you, all of your major
power lines, all of your water lines, all of your gas lines,
everything comes from the Ramapop Pass. The Revolutionary War it was as critical.
So the Americans, as the story goes, and I happened to believe it,
decided that they really made to do a feint during the Revolutionary War.
Prior to Yorktown. They sent a fellow who got captured purposely with notes suggesting
that Washington was going to attack New York City, which of course was a
stronghold for the Brits. What he was doing was he was going with rasch
Abo and others in French and marching around New York City to this place we
now know is Yorktown. And it happened in Mahwah with a diversion of the
British troops, so they say, and I happened to believe it. Yeah,
And it's interesting in how pivotal New York City was, but how strategically
Washington knew it was better to leave it to the British and fight elsewhere.
You know, sometimes tactically may not have been the best, but strategically he
certainly was. And that was a huge strategic move, it was, and
of course we had the French then suddenly on our size since seventeen seventy seven
Battle of Saratoga, which by the way, Benedict Arnold was tremendous at I
mean, he was wounded there and helped us make that battle which stopped were
going from coming down and splitting you know, the Hudson River, right,
so you know all of this, and the British fleets, the Navy fleets
occupied and cornered Burgoyne's team down in New Yorktown. But they had to go
through Rocklin County, which is my point. And on places they marched down
are places we know well, and one of them is a Ramapo Pass,
and how they went through there, you know, it's great stuff. You
know, we mentioned the Hudson River and the strategy of the British and the
Americans. They both knew it was really the key to the war because if
the British could control absolutely the Hudson River on both sides of the River,
they would effectively split the colonies in half and could safely attack one and then
attack the other, rather than multiple fronts. So it was absolutely key.
Washington knew that, the British knew that. So all along the Hudson River,
which Rockland happens to lie from south to north, and as we continue
our journey north, we have to go to West Point. Of course Fort
Putnam, who's a part And people have to remember before it was a military
academy, it was a key fortress. And I wish you talk a little
bit, but I think it's very fascinating the chain that was erected across the
Hudson River from West Point to Constitution Island. But let's talk a little bit
first about West Point and the key role it played first as a fortress before
it became a military academy. Yeah. Well, of course, the Hudson
River, as you pointed out, was key, and West Point and the
forts for Montgomery and others were there were very important in trying to protect our
area. We were somewhat successful, by the way. That's one of the
reasons why Stony Point was important as well the Hudson River. Yeah, so
so we the colonists, we future Americans built a big chain. You know
where the iron ore came from. It came from Rockland County right up in
the areas of Slowsburg in Tuxedo. Incidentally, when I when I say Rockland,
Frank and it's important that your viewers know that Rockland County became a county
in part because of the total destruction of Rockland area during the Revolutionary War.
Orange County residents didn't want to pay the taxes to take care of us so
and literally because our farms are destroyed, everything was messed up. They agreed
finally with people what they call south of the Borders, south of the mountains
rather which of the Ramapo Mountains, will let them go and live by themselves
and do their own their own taxing, which is how Rocklin County became a
county and broke from Orange County early border crisis, and we've been dealing with
it ever since, in one one form or another, it seems. But
yeah, well it's fascinating, and of course it's still that the Ramapol Mountain
area and and and will nape just to go back. I mean, they
they were tremendous in lots of different areas, and and of course they the
Tappans had most of the control of almost all the control. They were part
of the Algonquin speaking uh tribes uh As I say, in in in Nayak,
and in Paramount and in spark Hill. If you go all those places
in any of that West Point is a critical peace along with the other fortresses.
And when that big chain they wanted to again, the Hudson River being
key, the big chain was forged in many cases with iron Ore uh to
our in our north and and our and our county in northern areas. If
you had to choose one, and I know it's difficult because there are so
many great sites, you know, even for somebody to visit, what would
you think might be Oh, I mean, let's not limit it to one.
The top two or three sites that you say you think that people should
should certainly see here of historic significance in Rockland County for revolutionary sites, and
we're going to move on from there. What would you say the top two
or three would be. Well, I mean, we've talked about a couple
of them already. I think without question, Washington's headquarters. It's just it's
run by the Masons. I mean, it's still kept up by the Masons.
It's a great place to really get an absorption of how important our little
area was and how important it was. The Stony Point Battlefield is a great
place. And although the Stony Point Battlefield was giving back and forth, you
know, the battle itself had a lot of meaning and really made a lot
of difference in terms of how we were viewed in terms of the war as
well. I would also suggest going to a very small museum set up by
a friend of ours, Jerrey donn Ellen, that basically set it up,
which is the Camp Shanks Museum, which is an Orangeburg we you know,
real quickly, not actual, really important too. First place we're gonna move,
we'll move. Let's move to that. It's a natural segue. So
let's be cause I you know, nineteenth and twentieth century, and I have
it on my list here. So many things happening in Naya, from the
Nayak Turnpike, the train that went through, the electricity there, the shoe
thing, the brinks rock. So much happened to nay Why don't you take
it from there? Then? Well, I'm just going to say briefly that
the first electricity ever was in Christmas even eighteen ninety nine in Nayak, New
York. For real electricity generated in Orangeburg, which is where location right now,
approximately where the Camp Camp Shanks Museum is. Just to make this old
that much more interesting. So uh but but Nayak becomes you know, very
very important. Not only it shoes what have you. But an interesting fact
is that Nayak also was one of the first places where steamboats were allowed to
stop. And those steamboats, you know, they were terrific. Havistraw I
had one, and and Nyac and Doug Gonet spark killed, slashed Tappan Sloat
was jealous, so they built a pier which and then changed their name to
Piermont. Well, Piermont then became a no place another place for the for
those ferries, those steamboats to go, and that pier became famous both for
Camp Shanks, but not the least of which is uh. One of one
of our local guys said, you know what, his daughter's granddaughter came in
and said, I lies on a railroad. I was on a rail car
in South Carolina. Got it was great, you get you should get one
granddad up here. And uh so he thought about it, went to a
guy named Elazar Lord, and they created the Eerie railro which they built from
the Piermont Pier to Buffalo, New York. It all happened here in Rocken
County. And his name was Jeremiah Pearson, by the way, and Jeremiah
Pearson was also the fellow who ran the various nail factories and cotton factory up
in Slotsburg and Sterlington, New York. Anyway, as an aside, that
Piermont Pier becomes critical not just for the Erie Railroad, but for Camp Shanks
and for World War two and troop movements in World War Two. Well,
let's get to Camp Shanks. It's a name familiar to many of us here
in Rockland County, but not necessarily nationally, and it should be because it
played such a pivotal role in World War Two, particularly in the invasion of
Normandy. Tell us about Camp Shanks. Well, Camp Shanks's about was properly
purchased by the government nineteeen forty two, I forget them, total of racers,
but two hundred plus acres and it is currently now where the Tappanzee High
School is right now to Dominican University where Schaefer Elementary School is for those in
Orangeburg, and it literally became a community unto itself. They had jails,
they had entertainment, and they brought in troops from all over the country to
go to Camp Shanks for training and what have you. And from Camp Shanks
they went down to Piermont on the Pier and got in ships and went to
Europe to fight in World War Two. One point three million troops left off
that Piramont Pier to go fight in Europe against the Germans. About seventy percent
of the invasion force at Normandy, I believe was shipped out originally from Camp
Shanks. It was. It was enormous and it had I mean it was.
It was absolutely enormous, and Camp Shanks was there for many years until
nineteen forty six. A lot of folks who populated rock and County frank were
from originally from the Camp Shanks, you know, and were shipped out.
They were from other places, but they came back and a lot of the
folks, a lot of our lawyers and judges and what have you, lived
in the Camp Shanks barracks early on in Rocking County the Rocking County's involvement.
So yeah, it was a critical spot. So that Piermont Pier. You
asked where people should go, I would. I would go down to Piermont
Pier and think about things like, can you imagine a first railroad in the
east on second longest in the whole world, were emanating from that place in
eighteen fifty something, and then think of a one point three million troops who
left to go fight on behalf of our country. You talk about something important
to think about on July fourth now and the museum is where the old Orangeburg
pipe factory which was run by Roe. How was his name, Stephen,
Stephen, I'll think of it a Bradley. That area now has changed,
but there is a is a small museum of Camp Shanks, and I would
urge people to go there because it's a small but it's fascinating. Well I
tend to agree, but you know, Piermont so historic, great little town,
physical beauty right on the Hudson River is extraordinary to pan beautiful little town.
The seventy six House still operates as a restaurant with good food and you
can get the vibe. You can sit where George Washington sat where Alexander Hamilton
sat. It's a good, great experience and walk the little town. And
then of course you know the Stony Point Battlefield again, not only the history.
It's a beautiful place. As a matter of I little known the oldest
lighthouse in New York State is located on the property. Well, again because
of the key waterway that the Hudson has been since the beginning of the inception
of this country. So I agree those are three great great spots now and
study points good in front too, because there are tours there and there's a
whole you know, whole exhibition, so it's you know, you just go
there and people take care of you and give you a sense of it.
I want to talk a little bit too about the Havestraw brickyards because it was
so key. So much of New York City was built with have straw brick.
So tell us a little bit about the Havestraw the brickyards there, Yeah,
you know, and I think it was seventeen early seventeen seventies seventy one.
The clay that exists there in Hastraw area was great, and so they
started making bricks and by seventeen I was seventeen or about eighteen eighteen fifties,
they had forty two brick making factories in Haverstraw, known as I mean,
and these bricks were set all over the East coast, you know for a
building. So it was the nails were you know, cropped up and made
in Sterlington, the Slotsburg, and they were sent all over the rocks of
one have you you were all over and they were sent to all many places
from Rockland. But the bricks and the brickyards and those brickyards, you know,
they were marvelous. They had a bad accident up there and have a
Straw. I think it was the first huge environmental industrial slash accidents with the
brick they undermined so much of the town by digging it collapse, you'd say,
yeah, nineteen I think it was nineteen oh six. I'm not sure,
but I think that's about the right. And people died because of the
collapse of the areas, you know, where clay had been taken. But
have Astraw bricks, you know, they built a lot of what was the
early parts of the United States, you know, And sometimes you think Habstrow
doesn't get its due. Originally the Dutch name was Habstrew of something along those
lines. I'm not the historian, but I am fascinated and I do read
up about it, and I understand it was probably the first point that some
of the sailors from from Hudson's adventures up up the Hudson with the river that
eventually bore his name, actually settled first in the area of have a Straw,
So it was really kind of the first settlement along the Hudson River.
The very first, the very first settlement was the spark Hill Creek because it
was it was the first, it was easier, and they had a creek
there, uh Tappan sloughed I think it was called, but which I always
found find funny spark Hill Creek, which really sad. Spark Kill Creek means
spark kill, spark creek, creek creek, creek kill creek, creek killed
creek Creek is I think one of the first places that people actually from New
York area and what have you. But Lavistraw has been there, and of
course it's the bay and Hastraw is so big and it's relatively shallow, so
it's great for that kind of thick and ships. So it it. Nayak
and and and Piramont and spark Hill basically were like the spots. By the
way, those the only place you you can get into Rockland. You got
Hooked Mountain, you got the Palisades. I mean you only there are only
three spots that you could actually land in rock And County. But one of
those spots, and I just want to mention this because I think it's it's
fun and that is that. You know, one of the things we overlook
is the Naiak Turnpike. And the nick Turnpike was never there. There was
no road running from Suffern to Nayak. And the reason for that is a
thing called a swamp, the green Bush Swamp. We know it as the
Palisades Center Mall. That swamp is still a swamp. But they decided to
go floods with every buge I have to Rocklanders are laughing because it's still floods
with every single big rating storm. But please continue. Yeah, but they
decided again. Jeremiah Pearson Eliza Lord And said they've built a toll road.
Why because they could get faster from Suffern Slowsburg to the Hudson River if they
went directly instead of having to go through two to O two have a strong
Well, it was a big fight between Haristraw and and my point to that
is what's new. I mean, that's been true all these years. So
they finally got it done after nineteen years. But that road, that toll
road, allowed for tremendous amounts of goods and materials to then get out of
Nayak and to help build Nayak into a major place. So that toll road
that ran through the swamp that's still a swamp is important to the Rock and
County history. And the Thruway decided to follow the same route slightly slightly off,
but the same route. Before we go to the break, and as
they mentioned in the beginning, I want to talk a little bit about where
we are now, where we're going, how America evolves, et cetera.
But before we to get your personal feelings, how did it feel to you
to be, if you will, the representative of a place so historic and
so rich in history. That's one of that I know Orangeberg uses that as
one of its slogans. But how did it feel to be the chief executive
of such a historic place? Well, first of all, I was very
out to be it, and you know, I think in those days I
was the second. You know, the history of the whole political history is
another show how we got there. But when you look at the county we
had in nineteen fifty we had about ninety thousand people total. This happens z
Bridge was built, nineteen fifty five was completed. So by nineteen seventy we
had two hundred and thirty thousand people in Rockham County. There were a thousand
homes built every year in Rockham. So if you look at the overall,
you know, we really are a modern, relatively modern county from that perspective,
having grown so quickly. But I, you know, I happened to
love it. I grew up here, and so you know, I sort
of I remember when if I may say so, and I think it's great.
And because of the history and because it's so dynamically different, Sony points
a different place than Pearl River, you know, it's a different place than
They're all different demographics. It's amazing. Each little town, it's a little
place, but each has its own little flavor, yes it really does,
and its own issues on have you. So it's a great county. All
right, we're gonna take a break. My very special guest is former Rockland
County executive and head of the Rockland County Historical Society, Scott Vanderhoff. We're
talking history from the beginning until now. When we come back, we're gonna
talk a little bit about now, where where are we with our founding fathers
recognize us today? So I'll prepare you with that question, Scott. We'll
come back and let you give a few moments during a commercial break to come
up with a good answer for that one. This is being Frank. I'm
your host, Frank Lebarma will be break back right after these brief commercial messages.
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Pudsonriverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation podcast.
Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. My
guest is a former Rockland County executive and former head of the Rockland Historical Society,
Scott Vanderhoff, and we're discussing everything American history, particularly as it relates
to our area of Rockland County. You know, we bring our audience a
fresh topic every week, and we stream from Hudson River Radio, located and
beautiful and as we mentioned, historic Stony Point, New York. But remember
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to the podcast, and if you really like us, share Being Frank with
your family and friends. Scott Vanderhoff, welcome back. I tease you a
little bit before the break. So let's start with that question. Would the
Founding Fathers recognize America today? And if so, would they be pleased displeased?
What are your feelings. I'm not going to put you on the spot
or anything, but remember all conversations are good, so go for Well.
First, I'm not sure the Founding Fathers, I mean, even in their
wisdom, could have imagined a country that they helped create, which is a
good one. I mean, I really not to be quite quite blunt about
it. I mean, I think a lot of it, including the Constitution,
was built up over a period of time and as amended and what have
you to try to deal with the adjustments of modernity and what have you.
But I think this certainly in recent events, Okay, I happen to believe
that there is some disappointment that some would have and you know, I I
don't know how to exactly say this, but there's almost a self driven desire
by folks that I'm not sure existed. I mean, everybody certainly is you
know, entitled to life, living and uh and what have you. But
there's something about I think something that happened in COVID. I think changed a
dynamic and I and I think that's why I say it. It was almost
as if when we put those masks on, we became so self centered,
selfish in the sense we don't want anybody else to catch anything, but we
didn't want to catch anything from anybody. Combined with that, and combined with
the you know, the information is out there, both good and incorrect,
sort of transformed the individual identity to a very more a less public spirited identity
for a lot of people, and more in house. I'm not expressing this
very well, but there's almost there's almost a withdrawal from the public good for
the need of the public good overall. And you know, and I'll tell
you, Frank, and this is purely just me, but you see it
a lot on highways and roads people seem to not care as much about how
fast they go or or you know, interrupted, yeah, on roads and
here and there, and it's almost like we've created a at least temporarily a
society of me only as opposed to I think what our forefathers were thinking about
a broader good and and and so that that's rather my broader kind of view
of it. I just think we've we sort of we've sort of lost the
the community spirit that I think certainly was there. And when they decided to
in July fourth seventy actually it was July second, as I understand it,
But anyway, when they signed the declaration of independence and said we are we
want to become our own nation. And I think a lot of us driven
I think by the whole mentality of the COVID process that's taken over the last
several years. Very very interesting point of view. If I might to do
one thing that strikes me as ironic, especially today or tomorrow. We're recording
on the third, but we're doing it for a fourth of July celebration.
And you know, we call it the fourth of July, but we forget
the real title is Independence Day, and the whole idea of it is that.
And you mentioned as an independent nation, we shall serve no king.
But yet there are certain things that are happening now. One of them the
Supreme Court decision which has really changed the tenor of what it means to be
the chief executive in this country, and something called Project twenty twenty five,
which from what I've read, is almost a fascist doctrine. So it disturbs
me that we're celebrating our independence, yet there seems to be a move towards
demagoguery, if you will, towards someone who could actually become a dictator in
this country, and that these are there are people who actually support that move,
and that's shocking to me because if anything is anti democratic, it would
be that. So what your feelings, like I said, without getting overtly
political, but it affects us. We live in this country and decisions like
the recent one that I felt was shocking from the Supreme Court because the depth
of it to be able to create the whole idea again, remember they did
America was an idea and an ideal okay, that no one is above the
law. That that is, to me, the prime tenet of American democracy.
No one is above the law. And now it's like, well,
maybe somebody is are we going in the right direction with things like that?
Scott, Well, the answer is I don't know, but but I think
the Supreme Court decision has got a lot of elements of interpretation that will take
place. And having said that, okay, on first blush, one would
say what what what are you? What are you doing? But remember every
word is used in former and further legal issues as to how exactly the court
would interpret various things. So while I find it dramatic, I don't find
that I think that there will be changes in ways that will ameliorate what our
gut feeling. I am more concerned or no, I'm more concerned with ignorance,
because there are many folks in the country, in my opinion, who
are are not knowledgeable about the truth, about finding the truth, about looking
for information that they accept whatever their favorite just and that ultimately, if we
do not trustworthiness, it's the first thing on the scout, oh, trustworthiness.
If we can't find a way to trust, and I don't care what
your political affiliation is, if we don't have that fundamental I believe in this
as opposed to where we are. Government officials aren't trusted, the courts aren't
trusted, the candidates aren't trusted, and we have lost this sense of Listen,
I'm telling the truth. This is the facts. They may then maybe
you can interpret them, but here are the facts. I don't you know,
I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know what's going
to change. It may be an outside attack on our society generally to get
folks to recognize that opinions and all these other things that go on without fact,
without truth, without some looking into it, we are in trouble as
a democracy. I don't think there's any question because you won't know what you're
voting for or or even who you're voting for. I mean, and so
there's a lot of this which I think relates to you, all the information
we get from whatever sources on our phones and our computers and what have you,
and also on those who would take advantage of it, who are many,
you know. I think that's really important that this is not by accident.
This is a deliberate act. You know. Something came up today,
it was very interesting, and it was posted about this is the addiversary of
the end of the Vietnam War and has not been a single man Well,
the reason is not there hasn't been a single mention is because it's not true,
Okay, and it's amazing to me is that that very particular it's on
social media, and that particular ad or whatever you want to call it appears
every two weeks or so, so you can only have so many anniversaries at
a time. But people don't see it. And again it's something you mentioned.
They want to believe it, okay, and what they don't understand.
And sometimes I have to catch myself because I can be very critical and say,
guys, you have to be aware, you have to be aware,
you have to be awarey, because there are people deliberately these are Chinese,
Russian bots, etc. Who are doing these things deliberately to sow misinformation and
to create issues between people. So like, oh nobody cares. Of course
people care if it were true. It just happens not to be true,
but people stop when it reaches well, that's all I want to hear.
Well, and just just tagging on that, I think the issue of legitimacy
of telling the truth of you know, we can't have a situation where elected
officials are those who want to be elected simply lie and nobody nobody counters it,
because ultimately, then who do you trust If you can't trust the leaders
and you can't trust your government. If you can't, then you have a
form anarchy. Okay, and and maybe that's where we're headed. But if
we just if people would just I know, it's difficult, you know,
I mean everybody has their own news station and what have you. If one
just begins to at least look at two or three sources for the info and
try to discover the truth and then to attach you know, Okay, I'm
going to go this way, we'd be good. But right now, I
fear once we lose our faith and trust in people who are governing us and
people who are who are who are medical professors, the people who are giving
this, the people who are on our you know, who were expected to
follow the rules of the road on a highway, we are in trouble because
there there will be you know, then then nobody uh will know what to
do. And instantly one final point on that, when I was executive,
one of the keys we want to make sure we could do is to know
people that could rely on us if we had to evacuate the county, God
forbid, something happened to Indian point, we had a nuclear emergency. We
had to make sure that people trusted us to know that we're doing this for
the best benefit. That know, they can't run to their their local grammar
school because we've got a system set up so that nobody gets crashed in there
things of that nature. If we lose that and the ability to sincerely and
honestly get forth instructions and help and guidance, then then we're all going to
be swimming in a you know, in a very i'd say, you know,
drowning turf. You know, I think Scott because it takes effort.
Again, I mentioned it in the past, and Franklin said it. You
know, democracy is a participatory type of government. You have to be active,
and part of that is you have to educate yourself. And I remember
a while ago there was something on the internet, of course, in some
Facebook meme or whatever, and it suited my narrative, and it turned out
to be not true. Okay, And what you see when that happens,
often people instead of saying okay, I get it and I'll do better,
often they say, well, it should be true or it should have been
true because it fits their narrative. But that's wrong. I made that mistake
once, and I swore I would never make that mistake again, so things
and maybe because I'm a journalist, I have that little extra radar. Well.
I go by the old axiom things that are too good to be true
usually are you know, so they're not true in other words, so you
know, it takes a little bit of an effort to say, you know,
to jump on and there. And we've actually talked about letters from Einstein
that aren't true, the deathbed confessions of Steve Jobs, and you look at
them and you say, boy, that's a beautiful letter. But I don't
think it came from Steve Jobs. And there are mess and there are methods,
scopes, Google, et cetera. There are websites where you can actively
check these things, but you have to actively do it. One last question
before we wrap up, Scott, are you you optimistic or pessimistic for the
future. What is your feeling? Oh, I am I have optimism with
a touch of pessimism. You know. I happen to believe that in the
end this will work its way through. I am quite uneasy about our current
situation, and I mean everything from the wars to you know, to alliances
to politics. I'm extremely uneasy and want to be defeatist and depressed, but
I really believe, and maybe it's just because I believe in the process as
historically shown, that in the end Americans will find a way to preserve both
the independence and the way of life, as difficult as it may be from
a financial point of view or what have you, that we have and that
that ultimately that the theory of democracy and the theory will strive and will over
bear the negative, the nastiness, you know, the fear mong greene,
and that we ultimately will come out all right. You know, my paraphrase
Winston Churchill is that something along the lines that when the chips are down,
the Americans may may dally, but at some point they'll do the right thing.
And we certainly hope for that. You know what, I write a
blog Talk Talk Frank you can people can check it out ww dot talk dash
Frank dot blogspot dot com. And I have some thoughts that I share on
Independence Day and and where we might be and where we might going, and
I share a lot of your concerns, et cetera. Then it will take
us work, but if we work at it will be okay. Let's hope
so, and you know, uh, for those of us who are getting
on an age. We hope that works. Yeah, they can't see our
great beards because we don't. We don't transmit video anymore, but we'll let
them know. Yes, you and I are both great beards at this point.
I remember when we first met, we didn't have all these little more
hair too. Yeah, it's a little bit more and it was certainly a
lot dark Scott vandahh. Thank you for being Frank and your intelligent conversation.
You're always welcome here. Thank you, Frank, appreciate it. You know.
We offer special thanks to our listeners who take time to give us a
voice in their lives. You remember, we offer a fresh topic every week.
You can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts That includes
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We also ask that you consider sharing Being Frank with others. You always
like to leave you with a couple little nuggets, as I call them on
a slogan that I hope is appropriate for our conversation. And then some some
good original some great original music. This is from Thomas Paine, who by
the Way had a homestead not too far from Rockland County over in Westchester County
in New Rochelle, and I highly recommend you read his stuff. It's absolutely
brilliant, and I think this is very appropriate for our conversation today and what's
going on. And this is in short, because a body of men holding
themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody. Okay, And
I've got some great music from a friend, the legendary Pat Keating, who
took some time out and he composed this original ditty called the Mailman's Shuffle especially
for us and independsen stay here in America. I'm your host, Frank Lobono
for our engineer, the mail Man, Neil Richter, like to say,
thanks for tuning in and we'll catch you on the next being Frank, we
certainly hope so everything and thing thing thin Hudson River Radio dot com. Mm hmm