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But listen to your convenience, and remember every program is archived, so you
can listen to any Being Frank virtually anytime that you want. It's the intelligent
thing to do. This program is beginning on May twenty fifth. We're taping
on a Thursday. It's been a little over years since Russia's brutal invasion of
Ukraine. During that time, Prutent's thugs have murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian
civilians in an effort to feed his enormous lust for power and world domination.
Well, so far, despite the carnage, it ain't working. The Ukrainians
are putting up a fierce resistance that continues to cause Russia dearly. In fact,
they are on the verge of launching a spring counteroffensive in an effort to
finally drive the Russian invaders. Invaders from their native soil. One reporter that
I know of has been there from the very beginning. Phil Igner's mission has
been to document the heroic efforts the Ukrainian people to secure their freedom, and
he has done so magnificently. And he joins us once again. Phil,
thank you so much for joining us once again here on being Frank my pleasure.
Well, I know you're in Kiev. You're still in Kiev. What
is the current situation there? What can you tell us? I know recently
there were increased increased market attacks, etc. What can you tell us,
what's what's happening their card? Yeah, we went through a period of really
intense air uh just waves of air attacks, uh using all kinds of munitions
from sea based, air based and land based uh kind of launch points,
UM, cruise, missiles, drones, uh, you name it. It
was headed our way and the Ukrainian air defense system by and large held almost
completely. A couple of things got through and there was damage inflicted because of
the debris that fell. But so far, the Ukrainian Air defense is showing
exhibiting what it's learned over the last year, and it's it's effectively protecting Ukraine
from from air attack. Um. And then of course, yeah, add
to that the clearly the Patriot missile system is now here in operational and it
uh, it was. It was heavy there for a few days last week,
at towards the end of last week and then coming into this week,
but it has tapered off more or less, you know, touchwood and we'll
see what comes next. But the last couple of days have been comparatively quiet
in the Capitol, but lots of activity out in the east, lots of
activity on the diplomatic front, lots of activity in a number of different areas.
This war is an enormous historical event and there's a lot going on.
Yeah, I want to talk about that. Recently, you you made a
trip east to the actual battlefront where most of the heavy fighting is. What
can you tell us about what you saw there at that time. I was
out in chassav Jar, which is the next town along the front line,
past back Moot, which does appear to have actually found now I was there
about a month ago. Um, so uh, that was chas Yar.
But I've also been to Zaparijia about three weeks ago. That's another front line
area. Um in chase of Yar. I saw an awful lot of Ukrainian
troops, um prepping for either getting ready to exploit some sort of fault in
the Russian line or to beef up defenses if if Back Moot actually did fall,
which again it kind of appears as though it has. But we are
getting reports as well out in back Moot that the Ukrainians are making progress in
the areas, kind of uh sweep along Bach Moot so almost um as the
Wagner Group, which is a private military group, says that it's it's taken
control of Black Moot and it's ready to hand it over to Russian military troops.
But um, there's been little discussion on the Russian side about news we're
getting. The Ukrainians are are making advances along the wing of the city itself,
So lots going on out there. Um. I was down in Zapporisia.
There's a lot going on down there, and you know, I think
all of this and then here in the capitol, we we we get you
know, we get contact with the Ukrainian Press Corps, the Ukrainian UH military,
the Officer Corps and the Commanding Control UH and the you know them,
the kind of the UH the um what is it the radar not radar,
the telegraph, the kind of the underground telegraph that happens in war zones where
kind of things are talked about, whispered about, and you know, things
are anyhow the word here in the capital and what we see happening along the
front line is that we may have to change our perspective about what we talked
about when we talk about a counter offensive. Lots have been people will have
been looking for some sort of spearhead, and where that spearhead might go might
come from. It's starting to look like instead of a spearhead, you know,
piercing through Russian lines and then breaking behind and there's maneuver and attacking in
the rear and all that sort of stuff. What it may start to look
like, and we'll have to wait and see, is it might be an
entire front line. It might be a campaign where pressure is put on every
front, every area of the Russian Ukrainian line, to put pressure all encompassing
along the Russians and to occasionally make some sort of you know, demonstrable attack
or something to then you know, spread that message along the line. Hey,
you you might be next. So the readiness. The Russian readiness will
have to always be everywhere, all at once. That's what maybe you know,
there's this incident where Russian anti putin Russian soul of fighters soldiers working in
conjunction with Ukraine right pierce through deep into Russia itself. Right, But let's
look upon this as the all encompassing issue of this counter offensive, because again
let's stop thinking. And we don't know if there's for sure, but there's
a lot of talk about this, and there there there are people who are
looking at all aspects of this, and we all you know, talk about
it amongst ourselves, and it there's a lot of talk of that. There's
an idea of like constant pressure everywhere, all at once, so that there
is no safe haven for the Russians and in that way hope to break them.
That may be the way it goes, although we don't know over sure.
It could be another example of what happened in the last counter offensive around
Heart even cares On. There could be massive you know kind of you know,
breakthroughs and encirclements and maneuver We we just don't know yet. But the
weather is fine for the counter offensive. There's no issues with like mud and
stuff. Anymore, those those days are passed. So um it's it does
feel a little bit like waiting for the other shooter drop. But it also
might not be some sudden event like a like a spearhead, as I say,
it could just be constant pressure. Our name you mentioned a few times,
and we hear quite often in the States because of the fierce fighting.
Buck muth uh. Tell us a little bit about it, and why is
why is it so key? What do we need to understand? Why it
seems so important for both sides to control that. It's a small rural town
from my understanding, why does it play such a sized role and it's importance
in the battle? Well, it is, it isn't it's it's odd that
it had become this massive issue because it before the war, it was about
a town of about seventy thousand people. Um but it yeah, I mean
it's not enormous, but it's it's not what would you think of of rural
eastern Europe. It's more, yes, I understand, No, it's it's
it's city blocks, it's things like that. It's very Soviet, or it
was before it was destroyed. Um Uh, But it does it does kind
of lie on a juncture of a whole bunch of kind of roads and roots.
But the problem with that is that all of Dunbass is like that.
The entire area out there has a lot of interconnecting roadways and hubs. It's
it's very different the road system out in the east than it is in central
or western Ukraine, where you have kind of large arteries. Out in the
east, there's a lot of transferring because that's the industrialized these So there was
a lot of need to to move um, you know, goods around because
you know, to go from one smelting plant to a supply yard, to
a storage area to a hub for transportation at export. It's a it's a
web design up there. Well, you know, much more in you know
now it gets to that. So buck Mood is one of those junctures,
but it's certainly not the only one. So why was it that the Russians
were so determined to take it, Well, you know, in part because
the task was given to this guy, you have Guinea Preclusion, who is
the head of a private military group. And you know, for those who
don't fall along closely to this, yeah, he's he's an old buddy of
Vladimir Putin's. Um, he's been with him for a long time. He's
been referred to as Putin Chef because he's made a lot of money in catering
and that kind of stuff. Um, and he has this private military group,
and I there's a lot of talk about how he was trying to exemplify,
you know, he was trying to show his worth by having this objective,
and so he he just went you know, he really wouldn't give up
on it, and um, he just threw conscripts and you know, his
his his soldiers such as they are, his mercenaries at frontline positions of the
Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians held their ground and just killed as many of them
as they could, which is why it became then important for the Ukrainians because
they were killing some man, you know, so much of the enemy that
they were like, well, if this is the hill you want to die
on, we'll accommodate you. And so they then entrenched in bak Mood and
then it also then became a symbolic issue for them as well. I mean,
this was over nine months that this city was this small city was fought
over and the blood that was shed over it was astronomical and the damage that
was done was enormous. And even if you know the Wagner group has taken
it U it's apric victory at best, and it you know, would have
been for the Ukrainians as well. I mean, but there's no reason why
bock Moot should have been as brutal as it was. But you know,
maybe it just it was the point in the map. You know, It's
like Gettysburg wasn't very terribly important before the battle happened there, but you know,
it's that was the pit, That was the point on the map where
the both sides decided to have this big battle, and so so it was
I think in you as a history buff and myself too, I see certain
certain similarities with Bestone during the Battle of the Bulge in the World War two,
of small as nobody ever heard of town hunting before, where a vicious
battle Americans held on the one hundred and first Airborne in the legendary fight that
really kind of saved the front. So there were obviously differences, but I
certainly see certain similarities. Would you would you say that's a fair analysis with
Bestone? I meant, I mean Boston also hadd the issues of having it,
of having a an encirclement issue going on, and supply and and all
the rest, and the brutality of fighting in the middle of winter. We
have to remember that, you know, they were fighting in bach Mood all
through the winter, all through the fall, in mud and dirt and awful
you know, environmental conditions. There's another analogy to be able to best on
there. But yeah, I mean, it's just it seems like it was
this. It was a place where the Ukrainians pinned down the Russians and killed
a whole bunch of them, similar to Mariopal, it's uh, if I
might and share a story with you that I think you'll appreciate in our listeners
will as well. My father was a World War Two veteran Third Army,
so he participated in the Battle of the Bulge, and interestingly, never he
wouldn't often talk about the horrors of war, which are obvious. See he
more he enjoyed the camaraderie and he was a tuned sergeant. Of the things
he would share, and I think it's relative to what we're talking about,
was not only the brutal fighting at the Bulge, but the cold, sleeping
out night at night and wondering in the morning, who in your foxhold with
you would wake up, who didn't freeze to death overnight. So you're not
only fighting the Germans at that moment, you're fighting the elements, the cold,
et cetera. And I know that took I know it took a brutal
toll on him, both mentally and physically. And you see, I start
an interesting report on CNN, and it was a very honest report and talking
about even though the Ukrainian soldiers talk and put up a bolt front and they
are incredibly brave, in their eyes, you can see the fatigue that kind
of intense fighting week after week, month after month, has to take a
toll. Film your thoughts on that, Yeah, for you, I mean
absolutely, yeah, Well, I mean yeah, you know, it's not
easy on anybody being in a war zone. Uh, you know, that's
exhausting, uh for everybody, But those guys out on the front lines.
Absolutely, you can see the fatigue in their in their faces. You there's
you know, it's a soldier's prerogative to complain, So there's there are complaints,
um, and there's frustrations and anger and there's some in fighting that happens
nothing you know, that's nothing perfect. But the thing is they know that
they have to do it. And so there's as loathsome as awful as it
is, and they hate it. It's like, well, if I don't
do it, somebody else is going to have to do it, because this
is an existential fight for us. So there's that, and then even that
becomes resentment, and there's then there's those who aren't fighting, and they have
survivors guilt, and there's so much going on. And I I UM.
I have some friends who work in kind of UM whether they're they're mental health
experts and h A lot of people in Kiev and in Ukraine are already starting
to anticipate a wave of UM, you know, having to deal with PTSD,
having to deal with other mental health issues that are going to arise from
this war. Not to mention the fact that this is a country that is
finally coming into its own, but it's coming into its own after centuries of
abuse. And this is generational pain that has passed from your great grandfather to
your grandfather to your father to you and and and it's just the history of
this nation has been trauma, after trauma, and after trauma for a good
you know, two hundred years basically, um, you know, whether it
was the Great Famine of the nineteen thirties or the Second World War, or
the repressions of the Soviet era Bizarist Empire before that in the nineteenth century,
this country has dealt with trauma down throughout its history. And it's happening again.
And so I talk to these friends of mine working mental health and they
say, what's what's amazing to me and a very poignant um different you know,
differentiation from the Russians is that we're going to make a point after this
war is over, to get these people help in you know, just you
know, be tough or or here's a bottle of vodka. You know that
that those days are gone. We're not going to be like the reussions anymore.
We're going to open this up and we're going to try and help our
people who whose mental health have been hurt by this war, by you know,
as I say, the generations in the history of this beautiful but tragic
country. And that I think is a healthy thing and and and shows how
this country plans to actually build a future after this war. So It's a
long one, a round of saying that the Ukrainians are well, the mental
health issues and they're they're already anticipating it. Let's talk about eventual and all
wars end at some point um. And the Ukrainians have been linked to the
Russians by some culture, some language, certainly some territory. Is it possible
to families? It's possible, yeah, at family etc. After everything that's
been done, all the atrocities, all all the hatred, is it possible
to rebuild those relationships? Is that? Is that a real vision for the
future? Can that happen after all this? No? No, The short
answer, and the short answer is now, there's been too much damage,
too much history, too much And again this goes back to century, you
know, if not five centuries, certainly too on the Bizarrest Empire and the
Soviet Union. I would argue it goes back much further than that, and
I know a lot of Ukrainians would agree with me. There. The Russians
have always been an abusive spouse in a marriage of reluctance by the Ukrainians.
So the abused spouse has got the bags packed and is headed for the taxi
and the abusive partner not realizing that by putting hands on the other it's changing
the dynamic of the relationship forever. But you see the analogy I'm getting here
to here. We have all we all of us know people who have been
in toxic, abusive relationships and one partner comes to the realization that it doesn't
work anymore, and they leave, and the partner who's being left, you
know, abuses that partner in the process of leaving. I see that exact
analogy happening here. And this, you know, the second that you that
Russia started massacre, you know, sitting in rape squads and mass occurring village
you know, people in villages and hauling people out and summarily executing them on
the streets of Bucha or you know, or or other you know u Hostamel
or you know other areas you know, or burying them in mass graves like
around Issium. You don't come back from something like that. There's and also
the attitude on the other side of the fence, where I talk about families
and relationships in history, I know, I can't. I can't tell you
how many Ukrainians I know who call their Russian relatives they're you know, cousins
or they're you know, their auntie or there your even grandmother in some case
and say, you know, you people are bombing us, you're killing us,
and the and the Russian will will just deny it because that's what they've
been told by the Kremlin. You know. So when you get the betrayal
and the actual criminality and the cruelty and you wrap that all up in one
big ball there, I can't see a scenario where Ukraine normalizes relations with Russia
and culturally, personally, diplomatically, all the rest of it. There's this
has been too awful and too traumatic, and um, you know, it's
it's Vladimir Putin's fault a lot of ways. It's a lot of Russians who
support Vladimir Putin's fault in a lot of ways. But you know, at
the end of the day, I can't Ukrainians are They've been through so much
at the hands of the Russians that I can't see it normalizing anytime in the
future. Generations, generations for sure. It likes to switch gears slightly,
h Pil and take advantage of your experience as a reporter in the Kremlin.
You were there for how many years actually reporting from the Kremlin refreshment roughly roughly
five about five years, so certainly enough to just short under five. Yeah.
But so tell well, first of all, and I obviously want to
work it around to the imprisonment of the Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershevitz.
But first before we get to that, to tell us a little bit about
what what is it like to work in the Kremlin. It's got to be
a different experience because the amount of scrutiny you must be under. What I
mean, well, I mean I worked well, I was. So my
time in Moscow full time was basically ninety eight to two thousand and two.
It's the very tail end of the Elton area in the very beginning of the
Putin era. So it was a very different Russia and it was a very
different Moscow at that time. Um So we didn't have the we didn't have
the clamp down on freedom of speech. Uh that actually a lot of people
would plained about that that. You know, people could say anything they wanted
to, and that was a bad thing. There used to be a puppet
show that used to ridicule, ridicule the Great and Powerful, and I can't.
I mean, it was one of the first things that Putin shut down.
It was like a Russian version of spitting image the Great British Puppet Show,
and Putin couldn't abide by that and being ridiculed, so you got rid
of it. I mean, these are indications of things that we should have
seen coming a long time off with with Putin. But anyhow, but anyhow,
um well, let me talk a little bit about the court system in
Russia, because I there are a couple of very high profile court cases.
There were a couple of high profile court cases that happened while I was there,
so I spent some time, you know, studying the Russian judicial system.
And the Russian judicial system is not based on the rule of law.
It is an instrument of power. Um it is. The regulations and the
laws in Russia are purposely byzantine. I mean, that's understandable where that word
came from. You know, it's their per personally byzantine and their purposely contradictory
because it's not really about the rule of law. It's not about the law
itself. It's about the application of power. And and it doesn't it you
know, if you have if you have a better connected, Um guy,
you will, you will win your court case. And and the you're also
supposed to be very um uh, you bow to the power the state as
exerted through the criminal through the court system. That's uh. It was taken
the basketball the women's basketball uh player, and everybody was shocked, Yes,
brit Grinder and there was there. Everybody was shocked at the fact that over
ninety nine percent of people plead guilty. And that's because you're supposed to your
light power structure within Russia as a whole, not just in the judiciary,
but also in pretty much every power structure in Russia. You bow to the
more powerful regardless of you know, it's it doesn't matter about the law,
it doesn't matter about your position. You are, you are, you bowed
to the to the more powerful state, usually state structure. So let's let's
just replace the judiciary as an instrument of the state. And so you you
that's you bow to that and so um, it's it's definitely not about um,
the rule of law. It's about the application of power. So I'm
afraid that um, you know, uh, he's mostly journal reporter who's going
to be in there for quite some time, I suspect and he will be
used as a pawn of Vladimir Putin as a trading uh item in this war.
And it's it's disgraceful. So and I know many many reports, many
many media outlets pulled their reporters from Russia for that very reason. Um,
but you know, so what's what's one to do? How are we to
get information? I mean obviously they do it for for intimidation as well,
that if you if you say the wrong things, you're going to get picked
up and maybe never heard. No, absolutely no, that's that's right.
That's absolutely one hundred percent true. It isn't just about this one case.
It's sending a message not only to journalists but of course the foreign press are
first and foremost, but also just to send a message to the entire uh
you know X fact community, including you know diplomats, uh, you know,
businessmen and uh you know, take your pick that if they're willing to
do that to remember the press corps, then they're gonna they're potentially going to
do it to you. And a lot of businesses will pull their people out
because not even out of like oh, we're afraid for our people and you
cynically. I'm I'm afraid to say, but I believe this is true.
It's less about protecting your people, and it's about the fact that you know,
if some of your people do get chucked into jail, there's gonna be
You're gonna have to, you know, take care of that person and that
person's family, and there might be legal issues and you know, the being
counters and the lawyers will sum it all up and be like, now we
got to pull you thirty percent of our staff out of there because you know,
God forbid one of them gets gets you know, nabbed on the street
drunk snight or something, and the next thing, you know, we got
in the next ten years, we're taking care of this and then there's insurance
policies and blah blah blah. But um, you know, it is a
dampening effect all on Russia's relationship with the West. And that is not a
mistake. It's done on purpose, and it's done um by the Kremlin to
drive a wedge between you know, you know, there's it's it's gonna be,
and it has been, that's going to continue to be this thing of
like you know, um, we we're under persecution. They're coming for us.
We have to divide ourselves from the others. The Westerners are deconant and
they're bad, and they're out. You know, they're out to get us.
So you know, good and good and riddence to him anyhow, you
know, putting his driving his country deeper and deeper into the ground. He's
isolating them further and further. And I don't see any good outcome for Russia
from this war at all. Well, I'm gonna take a quick break,
and when we come back on switch gears a little bit. I want to
get your perspective of what you've been hearing about what's happening here in America and
a move quite frankly towards fascism, banning books. Just recently the poet Laureates
a poem that she read the inauguration being banned to be read in school and
Florida another word, things that are that are moving in this country in a
direction that I think someone like yourself can appreciate and point out that the dangers
of not involving yourself and stopping fascism at its very roots. I want to
get your feelings on that when we come back. I think you can give
us a great respect being in a place where people are literally fighting to have
that, where we have it here and it seems we so easily give it
up. I want your perspective on that, but we'll get that in just
a minute. This is Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono.
Remember it's intelligent conversation. My guest Lie from Ukraine is our intrepid reporter there,
mister phil Itner will be back with more with him on Being Frank Ray
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Hundsome River Radio dot Com, your local Rockland County station. Welcome back to
being Frank everyone. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your
host, Frank Lebono. Our very special guest tonight is mister Phil Ititner,
joining us from Kiev, Ukraine, as he has been from the very beginning
of the conflict, and we'll stick it out to the very end. Phil.
Before the break, we teased one of the things I really like to
talk about. I think you can give us an incredible perspective. You're in
a country that's literally fighting for its freedom. Okay literally on a daily basis.
People are dying to gain freedom of expression, freedom of movements, etc.
Etc. There seems to be a movement in this country towards a level
of fascism as we I don't think certainly, I've never seen in my lifetime
where more and more freedoms are being eroded. Freedom of speech, freedom of
expression, particularly from our LGBTQUE Brothers and sister. It's very similar as to
what you see in Russia, for example, and little by little banning books.
As I mentioned in the tease before the break, the poet Laureates Beautiful
Poet that she read at the President's President Biden's inauguration has been banned because one
parent complained at a school in Florida and they they they banned the speech.
I find it frightening, and I don't think it's hyperbole to say if we
allow it to be eroded, it may be too late when we want to
get them back your thoughts please, Well, you're you know, you're absolutely
right. You it's you know, once you lose freedom, it's going to
be a lot harder to regain them. Uh so, you know, and
look, I mean as we saw in Russia in the nineties and then into
the you know Putin. When Putin came into power, one of the first
things he started doing was shutting down up physician television stations and this you know,
the the the farcical satirical h program Kukle or Dolls, which was hugely
popular in the nineties in Russia, but which ridiculed m the rich and the
powerful was one of the first targets that he went for. And you know,
I mean it's it's that fundamental right of the freedom of speech that he
went after. But then he went after a whole bunch of other you know,
like uh, you know, habeas corpus and um, you know all
you know, all other sorts of kind of um freedoms and protections under the
law. He went straight for those. And we I'm scared about the potential
of something very similar happening in the States, where under one pretense or another,
certain laws, certain freedom, certain rights are infringed upon, or laws
are altered to you know, benefit one group or you know, power structure
would have you over another. And what should be a pluralistic society, uh
reminds me of a very similar kind of makeup of a country like I see
in Boutin's Russia. And we should all be worried about that, because that's
that's not that's not good. Um. You know, we we you know,
we value our liberties and our that's what the constitution, the rule book
we're also plosed to play, uh you know along, I mean, we're
we're we're you know, we come from so many it's that great scene and
in kind of um in one of the Spielberg's kind of underrated films, UH,
where it's uh The Bridge of Spies, I believe, where Tom Hanks
has that great, that great um, you know speech that he gives to
the CIA guy who's trying to twist him in the bar in Berlin about you
know, kind of you know, betray betray client lawyer privilege, you know,
don't worry about it. It's just the bending of the rules. And
Hanks's character makes a very good point in that we all come from different places
around the world where a nation of immigrants, there's one thing that binds us
all together, and that's the idea of America embodied in the Constitution. And
so to chip away at that, you know, the Russians don't have a
history like that we do, and to see it chipped away at very similar
to what is you know, existent in Russia it has been for quite some
time. It's sad to see it's it's um and also, hey, let's
I'm also one who firmly believes that we are the war that is going on
right now between autocracies in particular Russia and liberal democracies is not just on the
battlefield. There's an information war going on. And Um, there are fellow
travelers in what are called, you know, fellow travelers in America who hold
very similar white Christian nationalist ideals that has been that has been used in Russia
for you know, a long long period of time, arguably centuries, and
they find commonality. And it's about the idea that there is no such thing
as in the rule of law, the rights of man, the bill of
rights. Those are all nice, little trite things. This is the cynical
Russian perspective on that of those are all nice and good, but because you're
born, you know, there is no such thing as a bill of rights
in Russia. It's you win the rights that you get in Russia. It's
it's a much more um brutal but naturalistic kind of perception of how power exists.
And I just don't want to see that happen in America. And I'm
getting scared that the fellow travelers that hold similar ideas between this white Christian nationalism
in Russia and when I see growing malignantly in America, UM gives me really
serious cause for concern. And just you know, to wrap this up.
Also, you began by you know, saying Ukrainians are fighting for the antithesis
of that white Christian nationalism you see in Russia. They're looking for pluralism,
they're looking for democracy, they're looking for the rule of law. It's going
to be very hard, it's gonna be extremely hard. They're gonna they're they're
fighting against corruption, they're fighting against, you know, this kind of model
that Russia tried to, you know, maintain here, and the Ukrainians are
rejecting it, and they're rejecting it, and they're spinning a lot of treasure
and blood. And so there's a very widespread feeling here in Ukraine that it
has to have meant something. So after this war, I strongly believe,
having spoken to you know, thousands of Ukrainians, that not only do they
want to win this war, they want to be a shining beacon of an
idea that you can throw off autocracy and you can build you can you find
soil where you could plant that seed and a real liberal democracy that is an
example to the entire continent. If not the world can grow out of the
decay of a brutal impire like Russia, and I hope, I sure hope
they do it, and I think they can. But it is humbling to
see these people fighting as hard as they can, dedicating so much of their
lives to this cause, and then to see it being you know, undermined
in America. Its humbling to be here, and it does make me want
to kind of grab America by the collar and kind of slap it around the
face once twice and say, you know, wake up. You've got a
good thing here and there are people who would die for what you have and
you're willing to chuck it away for base domestic power politics. It's you know,
it's disheartening to see there, and it's encouraging to see here. I
just hope that we take a little a couple of lessons from the Ukrainians at
some point. It's it's so funny, it was, that was very very
next question, what lessons should we take from Ukraine? You just you just
gave us perhaps the biggest. What else would you say we should we should
learn from this conflict? What should we take from it? You can't that
you can't let a bully or you know, a lion who has blood on
his fangs. Um just sit there, uh, you know, and and
just ignore it because it's expedient for you um or to hope that a conflict
that we can all see was intangible and almost you know, inevitable, to
just stick our heads in the sand and hope that it'll just go away.
And you know, maybe if we ignore it or we just kind of try
and make everybody play nice, it'll go away. We never should have accommodated
Putin, and we should never have ignored the threat and the belligerency that was
growing within Russia. I mean, I was in Georgia in two thousand and
eight, and I remember reporting for CBS News and one of the most important
things I said to CBS News Radio was that, you know, one one
important thing message coming out of the Kremlin in the two thousand and eight war
and Georgia was we are going to pursue our national interests, regardless of what
it means on the global stage. We'll break international law, We'll do whatever
we want. We're gonna you know, and also we're going to act in
you know, in our interests regardless of the interests of other nations or regional
you know, stability. And it was basically, you know, we should
have learned in two thousand and eight that this guy was going to keep pushing
to restore the Russian Empire and he wasn't going to stop, and we should
have anticipated this war a lot better than we did. And then finally,
the one of the lessons, I mean, there are a lot more lessons
than just this handful I'm giving you here, but what you know, in
my opinion, Um, but one other thing was, um, the incrementalism
and the the oh, let's not let's be afraid of the Kremlin, so
let's not be too nice to the Ukrainians. The incrementalism of giving one weapons
system and then we'll think about it. No, maybe we'll give you well,
we'll give you anti tank weapons, sure, sure, yeah, And
then you know, maybe maybe we'll give you long range mississ systems in the
form of the high Marson. Okay, well, all right, we'll do
that, and then you know, maybe we'll give you, you know,
main battle tanks, including the Abrahms. Okay, you know, and the
Russians I'm sorry, the Ukrainians has said all along that this incrementalism has caused
Ukrainians. If you guys had just decided to do this from the get go.
Actually, if you really armed us back after twenty fourteen, because we
all knew this was coming, then we could have avoided this. You can't.
You have to stand up to bullies, and sometimes that means be an
armed to the teeth and ready to punch the bully in the nose when he
comes for you. And we didn't do it, and we should have.
Interesting, I've researched a little bit and I wanted to know what Gandhi's thoughts
were on violence, and he said, if I would, I would take
violence over cowardice. Is I guess to simplify his response, when you in
other words, you got sometimes you have to stand up to a bully and
you got to punch him in the nose. You just do what's what's what's
in the future for you have to And that's what Budin was. We should
have known him in the beginning. Well for you, Well, I just
that's funny you should say that because I just day was granted a renewal of
my press accreditation. Uh so I'm gonna as long as I have that press
accreditation, I can stay here, uh beyond the normal six months, you
know, just tourist visa sort of thing. Um, So I'm sticking.
I'm gonna stick around. We'll see what happens with the the whatever this offensive,
counter offensive or you know, campaign that happens in the coming months.
Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay on top of that. Uh. And
I'll continue to I'll continue to put out logs on my YouTube channel. UM.
I'm hoping to expand my audience as best I can. Um, just
you know, not for my own uh advantage. But um, and a
border on ego here when I say this, But you know, the question
is am I doing it for myself? Or am I doing for a cause
that I genuinely believe in? And where does ego and and and a self?
But I will say that I want to expand my audience because I genuinely
feel I have a perspective on the war here and on the people of Ukraine
that is not widely spread. Look, you and I come from you know,
CBS, We come from corporate. We know what the structure of the
news business is. And the structure, unfortunately of the news business, whether
it's CNN, CBS, AL Jazeera, Fox, take your pick, it
doesn't matter. The structure does not lend itself to really digging in deep into
who are these people, why are they doing this, Why is this happening,
Why are the Russians doing this? What's the motivation there? Where does
this come from? And where does this go to? And how important this
is? Basically, you know, what I hope to do is to give
context and complexity to the headline you get in on your televisions. Uh,
and certainly from you know, there are only a few of us over here
blogging, vlogging, what have you. Um, you don't you know,
you don't get from other sources either. So I'm I genuinely want to grow
my audience. So if anybody you know is interested in talking to me and
that you know, I'm happy to do that. In the more ears I
can get on, great, the better because you know, not again not
from my own you know advantage, but basically because I really do believe,
um, I provide a bit of context and a perspective that you're not going
to hear elsewhere. So UM, that's my that's my pitch to follow my
vlog just just my name Philip it or all one word, one L and
Philip two ts and it or over a YouTube and um, I'm hoping to
put out some other things as well that that people will hopefully be able to
learn a little bit more than just what they're seeing on their TV or what
they're reading, you know, on the web. So we'll fill your intelligent
conversation is always welcome here on being Frank, you always give us a great
perspective. You've been here what about a half a dozen times now, and
you'll always appreciate it. I'll come back and I'll use one of my favorite
words, right, I certainly appreciate it. Frank, you're you're a man
should a true sense of the word. I love that that word. It
just in a single word, captures so much. Keep keep keep doing it,
brother, keep going. Of course, we'd like to thank you,
all right, we'll do, Frank, thank you our pleasure always. We'd
like to give us special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give
us a voice in their lives as well. And remember we offer a fresh
topic every week and you can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite
podcasts. That's Apples, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Speaker and all the others.
You can also check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page.
Just go to the Being Frank tab. Okay, leave you with a couple
of last It's from Thomas Paine, when my opinion is really an underrated philosopher
and truly great founding father an American, and he said, a body of
men holding themselves unaccountable to nobody, ought not to be trusted by anybody.
Brilliant. It's brilliant. And let's leave you some brilliant great music from a
good friend, former co worker. And it's just a kick ass tune.
It's called Garrett and it's by Bob Perry. Thank you once again for listening
to Being Frank. Thanks to Neil Richter for keeping us going here streaming at
Hudson River Radio dot com. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. Remember being
Frank is the only way to be Okay. We'll see you next week.
Thanks for listening. West spend night in jail. In the morning, he
was due to be rain about the game and that being better me judge sends
him ninety days. He was sent to a direction of facility where it counted
down the days. He was all at thirty five on a Wednesday when he
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before the clouds arrived, he'd already died. And the story gets less clear
a five days season. No one has an answer, just want to happen
on that day. What a man he might have been. But he got
that answer. Gary, he was trying to Garry died. Hudson rivereo dot com