WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:08.480 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Be Frank. 2 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:15.119 We're the only way to be is Frank. Blow everyone, and welcome to 3 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:19.160 Being Frank. We're the only way to be, is Frank. I'm your 4 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:22.199 host, Frank Lagono, and we'd like to thank you for joining us here 5 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:27.920 on the Intelligent Conversation podcast. We know that your time is valuable in competition 6 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:31.719 is fierce. Let's face a lot of podcasts out there, but we like 7 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:36.359 to think of ourselves as an alternative to all that noise, so we really 8 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:41.200 appreciate you sharing some of your day with Being Frank. We stream from Hudson 9 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:46.079 River Radio dot com, where the mailman because he always delivers. Mister Neil 10 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.600 Richter is our engineer. 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Being Frank Brings 19 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:34.640 Us brings our audience a new topical program every week, beginning on Thursdays. 20 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.359 But listen to your convenience, and remember every program is archived, so you 21 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:44.079 can listen to any Being Frank virtually anytime that you want. It's the intelligent 22 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:48.920 thing to do. This program is beginning on May twenty fifth. We're taping 23 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.760 on a Thursday. It's been a little over years since Russia's brutal invasion of 24 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:59.000 Ukraine. During that time, Prutent's thugs have murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian 25 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.599 civilians in an effort to feed his enormous lust for power and world domination. 26 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:07.639 Well, so far, despite the carnage, it ain't working. The Ukrainians 27 00:02:07.639 --> 00:02:14.120 are putting up a fierce resistance that continues to cause Russia dearly. In fact, 28 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:17.039 they are on the verge of launching a spring counteroffensive in an effort to 29 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:23.879 finally drive the Russian invaders. Invaders from their native soil. One reporter that 30 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:28.159 I know of has been there from the very beginning. Phil Igner's mission has 31 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:34.280 been to document the heroic efforts the Ukrainian people to secure their freedom, and 32 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:38.439 he has done so magnificently. And he joins us once again. Phil, 33 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.879 thank you so much for joining us once again here on being Frank my pleasure. 34 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:46.400 Well, I know you're in Kiev. You're still in Kiev. What 35 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:50.680 is the current situation there? What can you tell us? I know recently 36 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.479 there were increased increased market attacks, etc. What can you tell us, 37 00:02:54.280 --> 00:03:00.719 what's what's happening their card? Yeah, we went through a period of really 38 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:10.280 intense air uh just waves of air attacks, uh using all kinds of munitions 39 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:16.520 from sea based, air based and land based uh kind of launch points, 40 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:23.240 UM, cruise, missiles, drones, uh, you name it. It 41 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:29.919 was headed our way and the Ukrainian air defense system by and large held almost 42 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:36.039 completely. A couple of things got through and there was damage inflicted because of 43 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.120 the debris that fell. But so far, the Ukrainian Air defense is showing 44 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:46.719 exhibiting what it's learned over the last year, and it's it's effectively protecting Ukraine 45 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.360 from from air attack. Um. And then of course, yeah, add 46 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:55.159 to that the clearly the Patriot missile system is now here in operational and it 47 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.080 uh, it was. It was heavy there for a few days last week, 48 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.360 at towards the end of last week and then coming into this week, 49 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:13.400 but it has tapered off more or less, you know, touchwood and we'll 50 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.439 see what comes next. But the last couple of days have been comparatively quiet 51 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:23.399 in the Capitol, but lots of activity out in the east, lots of 52 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:28.040 activity on the diplomatic front, lots of activity in a number of different areas. 53 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:32.360 This war is an enormous historical event and there's a lot going on. 54 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.360 Yeah, I want to talk about that. Recently, you you made a 55 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:41.680 trip east to the actual battlefront where most of the heavy fighting is. What 56 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:48.120 can you tell us about what you saw there at that time. I was 57 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:54.120 out in chassav Jar, which is the next town along the front line, 58 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:58.720 past back Moot, which does appear to have actually found now I was there 59 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:03.079 about a month ago. Um, so uh, that was chas Yar. 60 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:08.439 But I've also been to Zaparijia about three weeks ago. That's another front line 61 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:12.439 area. Um in chase of Yar. I saw an awful lot of Ukrainian 62 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:18.199 troops, um prepping for either getting ready to exploit some sort of fault in 63 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:24.319 the Russian line or to beef up defenses if if Back Moot actually did fall, 64 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.879 which again it kind of appears as though it has. But we are 65 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:34.959 getting reports as well out in back Moot that the Ukrainians are making progress in 66 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:42.600 the areas, kind of uh sweep along Bach Moot so almost um as the 67 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.120 Wagner Group, which is a private military group, says that it's it's taken 68 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.959 control of Black Moot and it's ready to hand it over to Russian military troops. 69 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:56.600 But um, there's been little discussion on the Russian side about news we're 70 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.120 getting. The Ukrainians are are making advances along the wing of the city itself, 71 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:05.360 So lots going on out there. Um. I was down in Zapporisia. 72 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.519 There's a lot going on down there, and you know, I think 73 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:14.000 all of this and then here in the capitol, we we we get you 74 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:21.879 know, we get contact with the Ukrainian Press Corps, the Ukrainian UH military, 75 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:29.680 the Officer Corps and the Commanding Control UH and the you know them, 76 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:35.120 the kind of the UH the um what is it the radar not radar, 77 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:43.319 the telegraph, the kind of the underground telegraph that happens in war zones where 78 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.639 kind of things are talked about, whispered about, and you know, things 79 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:53.360 are anyhow the word here in the capital and what we see happening along the 80 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:57.160 front line is that we may have to change our perspective about what we talked 81 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:00.319 about when we talk about a counter offensive. Lots have been people will have 82 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.680 been looking for some sort of spearhead, and where that spearhead might go might 83 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:10.240 come from. It's starting to look like instead of a spearhead, you know, 84 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.879 piercing through Russian lines and then breaking behind and there's maneuver and attacking in 85 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.199 the rear and all that sort of stuff. What it may start to look 86 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.600 like, and we'll have to wait and see, is it might be an 87 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:28.759 entire front line. It might be a campaign where pressure is put on every 88 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.160 front, every area of the Russian Ukrainian line, to put pressure all encompassing 89 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:40.879 along the Russians and to occasionally make some sort of you know, demonstrable attack 90 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:46.360 or something to then you know, spread that message along the line. Hey, 91 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.600 you you might be next. So the readiness. The Russian readiness will 92 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.319 have to always be everywhere, all at once. That's what maybe you know, 93 00:07:55.399 --> 00:08:01.720 there's this incident where Russian anti putin Russian soul of fighters soldiers working in 94 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:09.800 conjunction with Ukraine right pierce through deep into Russia itself. Right, But let's 95 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:15.199 look upon this as the all encompassing issue of this counter offensive, because again 96 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.279 let's stop thinking. And we don't know if there's for sure, but there's 97 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.839 a lot of talk about this, and there there there are people who are 98 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.279 looking at all aspects of this, and we all you know, talk about 99 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.000 it amongst ourselves, and it there's a lot of talk of that. There's 100 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:33.919 an idea of like constant pressure everywhere, all at once, so that there 101 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.799 is no safe haven for the Russians and in that way hope to break them. 102 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:43.240 That may be the way it goes, although we don't know over sure. 103 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.559 It could be another example of what happened in the last counter offensive around 104 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.919 Heart even cares On. There could be massive you know kind of you know, 105 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.960 breakthroughs and encirclements and maneuver We we just don't know yet. But the 106 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:01.360 weather is fine for the counter offensive. There's no issues with like mud and 107 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:07.120 stuff. Anymore, those those days are passed. So um it's it does 108 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:09.000 feel a little bit like waiting for the other shooter drop. But it also 109 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.480 might not be some sudden event like a like a spearhead, as I say, 110 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:18.440 it could just be constant pressure. Our name you mentioned a few times, 111 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.360 and we hear quite often in the States because of the fierce fighting. 112 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.720 Buck muth uh. Tell us a little bit about it, and why is 113 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.240 why is it so key? What do we need to understand? Why it 114 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.039 seems so important for both sides to control that. It's a small rural town 115 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:39.399 from my understanding, why does it play such a sized role and it's importance 116 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:46.200 in the battle? Well, it is, it isn't it's it's odd that 117 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.840 it had become this massive issue because it before the war, it was about 118 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:56.279 a town of about seventy thousand people. Um but it yeah, I mean 119 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.600 it's not enormous, but it's it's not what would you think of of rural 120 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.639 eastern Europe. It's more, yes, I understand, No, it's it's 121 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.440 it's city blocks, it's things like that. It's very Soviet, or it 122 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:13.720 was before it was destroyed. Um Uh, But it does it does kind 123 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:18.480 of lie on a juncture of a whole bunch of kind of roads and roots. 124 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:24.840 But the problem with that is that all of Dunbass is like that. 125 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:31.559 The entire area out there has a lot of interconnecting roadways and hubs. It's 126 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.879 it's very different the road system out in the east than it is in central 127 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.240 or western Ukraine, where you have kind of large arteries. Out in the 128 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.720 east, there's a lot of transferring because that's the industrialized these So there was 129 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.240 a lot of need to to move um, you know, goods around because 130 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.799 you know, to go from one smelting plant to a supply yard, to 131 00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:01.360 a storage area to a hub for transportation at export. It's a it's a 132 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:03.879 web design up there. Well, you know, much more in you know 133 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:09.240 now it gets to that. So buck Mood is one of those junctures, 134 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.519 but it's certainly not the only one. So why was it that the Russians 135 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:16.840 were so determined to take it, Well, you know, in part because 136 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.960 the task was given to this guy, you have Guinea Preclusion, who is 137 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.080 the head of a private military group. And you know, for those who 138 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:31.080 don't fall along closely to this, yeah, he's he's an old buddy of 139 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.480 Vladimir Putin's. Um, he's been with him for a long time. He's 140 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.639 been referred to as Putin Chef because he's made a lot of money in catering 141 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.679 and that kind of stuff. Um, and he has this private military group, 142 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:50.279 and I there's a lot of talk about how he was trying to exemplify, 143 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.279 you know, he was trying to show his worth by having this objective, 144 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.679 and so he he just went you know, he really wouldn't give up 145 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:03.120 on it, and um, he just threw conscripts and you know, his 146 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.960 his his soldiers such as they are, his mercenaries at frontline positions of the 147 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:11.639 Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians held their ground and just killed as many of them 148 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.360 as they could, which is why it became then important for the Ukrainians because 149 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.720 they were killing some man, you know, so much of the enemy that 150 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.240 they were like, well, if this is the hill you want to die 151 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.559 on, we'll accommodate you. And so they then entrenched in bak Mood and 152 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.120 then it also then became a symbolic issue for them as well. I mean, 153 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:41.399 this was over nine months that this city was this small city was fought 154 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.799 over and the blood that was shed over it was astronomical and the damage that 155 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:52.440 was done was enormous. And even if you know the Wagner group has taken 156 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.200 it U it's apric victory at best, and it you know, would have 157 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.960 been for the Ukrainians as well. I mean, but there's no reason why 158 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:07.000 bock Moot should have been as brutal as it was. But you know, 159 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.519 maybe it just it was the point in the map. You know, It's 160 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:15.480 like Gettysburg wasn't very terribly important before the battle happened there, but you know, 161 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.120 it's that was the pit, That was the point on the map where 162 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.840 the both sides decided to have this big battle, and so so it was 163 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.279 I think in you as a history buff and myself too, I see certain 164 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.480 certain similarities with Bestone during the Battle of the Bulge in the World War two, 165 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.000 of small as nobody ever heard of town hunting before, where a vicious 166 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:43.200 battle Americans held on the one hundred and first Airborne in the legendary fight that 167 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.879 really kind of saved the front. So there were obviously differences, but I 168 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:52.240 certainly see certain similarities. Would you would you say that's a fair analysis with 169 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:58.639 Bestone? I meant, I mean Boston also hadd the issues of having it, 170 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:05.559 of having a an encirclement issue going on, and supply and and all 171 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.279 the rest, and the brutality of fighting in the middle of winter. We 172 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.240 have to remember that, you know, they were fighting in bach Mood all 173 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.480 through the winter, all through the fall, in mud and dirt and awful 174 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:24.360 you know, environmental conditions. There's another analogy to be able to best on 175 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.159 there. But yeah, I mean, it's just it seems like it was 176 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:31.519 this. It was a place where the Ukrainians pinned down the Russians and killed 177 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.600 a whole bunch of them, similar to Mariopal, it's uh, if I 178 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.600 might and share a story with you that I think you'll appreciate in our listeners 179 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.159 will as well. My father was a World War Two veteran Third Army, 180 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.320 so he participated in the Battle of the Bulge, and interestingly, never he 181 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.000 wouldn't often talk about the horrors of war, which are obvious. See he 182 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.480 more he enjoyed the camaraderie and he was a tuned sergeant. Of the things 183 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.639 he would share, and I think it's relative to what we're talking about, 184 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.679 was not only the brutal fighting at the Bulge, but the cold, sleeping 185 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.960 out night at night and wondering in the morning, who in your foxhold with 186 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.639 you would wake up, who didn't freeze to death overnight. So you're not 187 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.639 only fighting the Germans at that moment, you're fighting the elements, the cold, 188 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.480 et cetera. And I know that took I know it took a brutal 189 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:28.759 toll on him, both mentally and physically. And you see, I start 190 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:35.240 an interesting report on CNN, and it was a very honest report and talking 191 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.799 about even though the Ukrainian soldiers talk and put up a bolt front and they 192 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.559 are incredibly brave, in their eyes, you can see the fatigue that kind 193 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.240 of intense fighting week after week, month after month, has to take a 194 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.320 toll. Film your thoughts on that, Yeah, for you, I mean 195 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:58.519 absolutely, yeah, Well, I mean yeah, you know, it's not 196 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.960 easy on anybody being in a war zone. Uh, you know, that's 197 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:07.440 exhausting, uh for everybody, But those guys out on the front lines. 198 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:12.799 Absolutely, you can see the fatigue in their in their faces. You there's 199 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:19.399 you know, it's a soldier's prerogative to complain, So there's there are complaints, 200 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.960 um, and there's frustrations and anger and there's some in fighting that happens 201 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:33.000 nothing you know, that's nothing perfect. But the thing is they know that 202 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.919 they have to do it. And so there's as loathsome as awful as it 203 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.440 is, and they hate it. It's like, well, if I don't 204 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.799 do it, somebody else is going to have to do it, because this 205 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:47.080 is an existential fight for us. So there's that, and then even that 206 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:51.000 becomes resentment, and there's then there's those who aren't fighting, and they have 207 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:56.639 survivors guilt, and there's so much going on. And I I UM. 208 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:03.960 I have some friends who work in kind of UM whether they're they're mental health 209 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:11.559 experts and h A lot of people in Kiev and in Ukraine are already starting 210 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.839 to anticipate a wave of UM, you know, having to deal with PTSD, 211 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.680 having to deal with other mental health issues that are going to arise from 212 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:26.599 this war. Not to mention the fact that this is a country that is 213 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.200 finally coming into its own, but it's coming into its own after centuries of 214 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:37.359 abuse. And this is generational pain that has passed from your great grandfather to 215 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:41.319 your grandfather to your father to you and and and it's just the history of 216 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:47.720 this nation has been trauma, after trauma, and after trauma for a good 217 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.079 you know, two hundred years basically, um, you know, whether it 218 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.240 was the Great Famine of the nineteen thirties or the Second World War, or 219 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.279 the repressions of the Soviet era Bizarist Empire before that in the nineteenth century, 220 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.839 this country has dealt with trauma down throughout its history. And it's happening again. 221 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.839 And so I talk to these friends of mine working mental health and they 222 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:19.920 say, what's what's amazing to me and a very poignant um different you know, 223 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.920 differentiation from the Russians is that we're going to make a point after this 224 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:33.519 war is over, to get these people help in you know, just you 225 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.480 know, be tough or or here's a bottle of vodka. You know that 226 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.960 that those days are gone. We're not going to be like the reussions anymore. 227 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.480 We're going to open this up and we're going to try and help our 228 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.200 people who whose mental health have been hurt by this war, by you know, 229 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:53.119 as I say, the generations in the history of this beautiful but tragic 230 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:59.960 country. And that I think is a healthy thing and and and shows how 231 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:04.160 this country plans to actually build a future after this war. So It's a 232 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.920 long one, a round of saying that the Ukrainians are well, the mental 233 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:15.400 health issues and they're they're already anticipating it. Let's talk about eventual and all 234 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.240 wars end at some point um. And the Ukrainians have been linked to the 235 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:26.759 Russians by some culture, some language, certainly some territory. Is it possible 236 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:33.079 to families? It's possible, yeah, at family etc. After everything that's 237 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.680 been done, all the atrocities, all all the hatred, is it possible 238 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.839 to rebuild those relationships? Is that? Is that a real vision for the 239 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:48.000 future? Can that happen after all this? No? No, The short 240 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.640 answer, and the short answer is now, there's been too much damage, 241 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:57.400 too much history, too much And again this goes back to century, you 242 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:03.240 know, if not five centuries, certainly too on the Bizarrest Empire and the 243 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.640 Soviet Union. I would argue it goes back much further than that, and 244 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.079 I know a lot of Ukrainians would agree with me. There. The Russians 245 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:18.119 have always been an abusive spouse in a marriage of reluctance by the Ukrainians. 246 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:26.960 So the abused spouse has got the bags packed and is headed for the taxi 247 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:33.559 and the abusive partner not realizing that by putting hands on the other it's changing 248 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.559 the dynamic of the relationship forever. But you see the analogy I'm getting here 249 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.440 to here. We have all we all of us know people who have been 250 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:47.279 in toxic, abusive relationships and one partner comes to the realization that it doesn't 251 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:51.440 work anymore, and they leave, and the partner who's being left, you 252 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:56.480 know, abuses that partner in the process of leaving. I see that exact 253 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:03.279 analogy happening here. And this, you know, the second that you that 254 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.599 Russia started massacre, you know, sitting in rape squads and mass occurring village 255 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:14.000 you know, people in villages and hauling people out and summarily executing them on 256 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:18.000 the streets of Bucha or you know, or or other you know u Hostamel 257 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.680 or you know other areas you know, or burying them in mass graves like 258 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:29.039 around Issium. You don't come back from something like that. There's and also 259 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.599 the attitude on the other side of the fence, where I talk about families 260 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.319 and relationships in history, I know, I can't. I can't tell you 261 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:44.319 how many Ukrainians I know who call their Russian relatives they're you know, cousins 262 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.039 or they're you know, their auntie or there your even grandmother in some case 263 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.640 and say, you know, you people are bombing us, you're killing us, 264 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.640 and the and the Russian will will just deny it because that's what they've 265 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.960 been told by the Kremlin. You know. So when you get the betrayal 266 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.160 and the actual criminality and the cruelty and you wrap that all up in one 267 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:14.400 big ball there, I can't see a scenario where Ukraine normalizes relations with Russia 268 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:18.359 and culturally, personally, diplomatically, all the rest of it. There's this 269 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.759 has been too awful and too traumatic, and um, you know, it's 270 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:27.000 it's Vladimir Putin's fault a lot of ways. It's a lot of Russians who 271 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:32.319 support Vladimir Putin's fault in a lot of ways. But you know, at 272 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:37.920 the end of the day, I can't Ukrainians are They've been through so much 273 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:42.799 at the hands of the Russians that I can't see it normalizing anytime in the 274 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.039 future. Generations, generations for sure. It likes to switch gears slightly, 275 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:53.200 h Pil and take advantage of your experience as a reporter in the Kremlin. 276 00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:00.640 You were there for how many years actually reporting from the Kremlin refreshment roughly roughly 277 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:04.920 five about five years, so certainly enough to just short under five. Yeah. 278 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.720 But so tell well, first of all, and I obviously want to 279 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:14.359 work it around to the imprisonment of the Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershevitz. 280 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.480 But first before we get to that, to tell us a little bit about 281 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.960 what what is it like to work in the Kremlin. It's got to be 282 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.880 a different experience because the amount of scrutiny you must be under. What I 283 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:30.200 mean, well, I mean I worked well, I was. So my 284 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:37.720 time in Moscow full time was basically ninety eight to two thousand and two. 285 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.599 It's the very tail end of the Elton area in the very beginning of the 286 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.920 Putin era. So it was a very different Russia and it was a very 287 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:53.599 different Moscow at that time. Um So we didn't have the we didn't have 288 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:59.559 the clamp down on freedom of speech. Uh that actually a lot of people 289 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.759 would plained about that that. You know, people could say anything they wanted 290 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.519 to, and that was a bad thing. There used to be a puppet 291 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.680 show that used to ridicule, ridicule the Great and Powerful, and I can't. 292 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.640 I mean, it was one of the first things that Putin shut down. 293 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:22.359 It was like a Russian version of spitting image the Great British Puppet Show, 294 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:27.400 and Putin couldn't abide by that and being ridiculed, so you got rid 295 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:30.240 of it. I mean, these are indications of things that we should have 296 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.119 seen coming a long time off with with Putin. But anyhow, but anyhow, 297 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.480 um well, let me talk a little bit about the court system in 298 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.839 Russia, because I there are a couple of very high profile court cases. 299 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.119 There were a couple of high profile court cases that happened while I was there, 300 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:51.759 so I spent some time, you know, studying the Russian judicial system. 301 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.000 And the Russian judicial system is not based on the rule of law. 302 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:03.599 It is an instrument of power. Um it is. The regulations and the 303 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:10.720 laws in Russia are purposely byzantine. I mean, that's understandable where that word 304 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.400 came from. You know, it's their per personally byzantine and their purposely contradictory 305 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.920 because it's not really about the rule of law. It's not about the law 306 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:26.400 itself. It's about the application of power. And and it doesn't it you 307 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.920 know, if you have if you have a better connected, Um guy, 308 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.559 you will, you will win your court case. And and the you're also 309 00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:45.400 supposed to be very um uh, you bow to the power the state as 310 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:51.640 exerted through the criminal through the court system. That's uh. It was taken 311 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:57.799 the basketball the women's basketball uh player, and everybody was shocked, Yes, 312 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.559 brit Grinder and there was there. Everybody was shocked at the fact that over 313 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:08.559 ninety nine percent of people plead guilty. And that's because you're supposed to your 314 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:15.960 light power structure within Russia as a whole, not just in the judiciary, 315 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.519 but also in pretty much every power structure in Russia. You bow to the 316 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:26.839 more powerful regardless of you know, it's it doesn't matter about the law, 317 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.039 it doesn't matter about your position. You are, you are, you bowed 318 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:34.759 to the to the more powerful state, usually state structure. So let's let's 319 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.920 just replace the judiciary as an instrument of the state. And so you you 320 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:47.519 that's you bow to that and so um, it's it's definitely not about um, 321 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.279 the rule of law. It's about the application of power. So I'm 322 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.359 afraid that um, you know, uh, he's mostly journal reporter who's going 323 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:02.480 to be in there for quite some time, I suspect and he will be 324 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:07.240 used as a pawn of Vladimir Putin as a trading uh item in this war. 325 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:15.240 And it's it's disgraceful. So and I know many many reports, many 326 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:21.240 many media outlets pulled their reporters from Russia for that very reason. Um, 327 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:23.359 but you know, so what's what's one to do? How are we to 328 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.960 get information? I mean obviously they do it for for intimidation as well, 329 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.599 that if you if you say the wrong things, you're going to get picked 330 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:37.880 up and maybe never heard. No, absolutely no, that's that's right. 331 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.200 That's absolutely one hundred percent true. It isn't just about this one case. 332 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:47.359 It's sending a message not only to journalists but of course the foreign press are 333 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:52.119 first and foremost, but also just to send a message to the entire uh 334 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:59.079 you know X fact community, including you know diplomats, uh, you know, 335 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:03.400 businessmen and uh you know, take your pick that if they're willing to 336 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.039 do that to remember the press corps, then they're gonna they're potentially going to 337 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.319 do it to you. And a lot of businesses will pull their people out 338 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.559 because not even out of like oh, we're afraid for our people and you 339 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.160 cynically. I'm I'm afraid to say, but I believe this is true. 340 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.119 It's less about protecting your people, and it's about the fact that you know, 341 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:26.599 if some of your people do get chucked into jail, there's gonna be 342 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.799 You're gonna have to, you know, take care of that person and that 343 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.680 person's family, and there might be legal issues and you know, the being 344 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:37.240 counters and the lawyers will sum it all up and be like, now we 345 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.079 got to pull you thirty percent of our staff out of there because you know, 346 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.839 God forbid one of them gets gets you know, nabbed on the street 347 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.599 drunk snight or something, and the next thing, you know, we got 348 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.680 in the next ten years, we're taking care of this and then there's insurance 349 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.160 policies and blah blah blah. But um, you know, it is a 350 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:03.880 dampening effect all on Russia's relationship with the West. And that is not a 351 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:11.519 mistake. It's done on purpose, and it's done um by the Kremlin to 352 00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.640 drive a wedge between you know, you know, there's it's it's gonna be, 353 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:18.480 and it has been, that's going to continue to be this thing of 354 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:25.359 like you know, um, we we're under persecution. They're coming for us. 355 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:32.400 We have to divide ourselves from the others. The Westerners are deconant and 356 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:33.839 they're bad, and they're out. You know, they're out to get us. 357 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.880 So you know, good and good and riddence to him anyhow, you 358 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:45.039 know, putting his driving his country deeper and deeper into the ground. He's 359 00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:51.079 isolating them further and further. And I don't see any good outcome for Russia 360 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:55.680 from this war at all. Well, I'm gonna take a quick break, 361 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.400 and when we come back on switch gears a little bit. I want to 362 00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:03.599 get your perspective of what you've been hearing about what's happening here in America and 363 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:10.559 a move quite frankly towards fascism, banning books. Just recently the poet Laureates 364 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.559 a poem that she read the inauguration being banned to be read in school and 365 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.160 Florida another word, things that are that are moving in this country in a 366 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:25.359 direction that I think someone like yourself can appreciate and point out that the dangers 367 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.160 of not involving yourself and stopping fascism at its very roots. I want to 368 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.240 get your feelings on that when we come back. I think you can give 369 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.240 us a great respect being in a place where people are literally fighting to have 370 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.359 that, where we have it here and it seems we so easily give it 371 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.319 up. I want your perspective on that, but we'll get that in just 372 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:48.640 a minute. This is Being Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. 373 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:55.200 Remember it's intelligent conversation. My guest Lie from Ukraine is our intrepid reporter there, 374 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.920 mister phil Itner will be back with more with him on Being Frank Ray 375 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.240 right after these brief commercial messages. Please don't go away. Hudson River Radio 376 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.240 dot com Bring a dash of green into your life. 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Murder in the Hudson Valley is available on Apple 385 00:31:52.519 --> 00:32:00.680 Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is 386 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:06.599 Hundsome River Radio dot Com, your local Rockland County station. Welcome back to 387 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.000 being Frank everyone. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your 388 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:14.079 host, Frank Lebono. Our very special guest tonight is mister Phil Ititner, 389 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.519 joining us from Kiev, Ukraine, as he has been from the very beginning 390 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:22.519 of the conflict, and we'll stick it out to the very end. Phil. 391 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.000 Before the break, we teased one of the things I really like to 392 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.519 talk about. I think you can give us an incredible perspective. You're in 393 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:36.240 a country that's literally fighting for its freedom. Okay literally on a daily basis. 394 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:42.480 People are dying to gain freedom of expression, freedom of movements, etc. 395 00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:46.240 Etc. There seems to be a movement in this country towards a level 396 00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:51.279 of fascism as we I don't think certainly, I've never seen in my lifetime 397 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.920 where more and more freedoms are being eroded. Freedom of speech, freedom of 398 00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:00.839 expression, particularly from our LGBTQUE Brothers and sister. It's very similar as to 399 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.559 what you see in Russia, for example, and little by little banning books. 400 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.359 As I mentioned in the tease before the break, the poet Laureates Beautiful 401 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:15.440 Poet that she read at the President's President Biden's inauguration has been banned because one 402 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:22.000 parent complained at a school in Florida and they they they banned the speech. 403 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:28.200 I find it frightening, and I don't think it's hyperbole to say if we 404 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.799 allow it to be eroded, it may be too late when we want to 405 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:38.039 get them back your thoughts please, Well, you're you know, you're absolutely 406 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:45.079 right. You it's you know, once you lose freedom, it's going to 407 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.680 be a lot harder to regain them. Uh so, you know, and 408 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.559 look, I mean as we saw in Russia in the nineties and then into 409 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:55.319 the you know Putin. When Putin came into power, one of the first 410 00:33:55.319 --> 00:34:02.640 things he started doing was shutting down up physician television stations and this you know, 411 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:09.920 the the the farcical satirical h program Kukle or Dolls, which was hugely 412 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:15.639 popular in the nineties in Russia, but which ridiculed m the rich and the 413 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.559 powerful was one of the first targets that he went for. And you know, 414 00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:27.199 I mean it's it's that fundamental right of the freedom of speech that he 415 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.760 went after. But then he went after a whole bunch of other you know, 416 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.599 like uh, you know, habeas corpus and um, you know all 417 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:42.440 you know, all other sorts of kind of um freedoms and protections under the 418 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:47.480 law. He went straight for those. And we I'm scared about the potential 419 00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:53.440 of something very similar happening in the States, where under one pretense or another, 420 00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:00.800 certain laws, certain freedom, certain rights are infringed upon, or laws 421 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:06.639 are altered to you know, benefit one group or you know, power structure 422 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:10.079 would have you over another. And what should be a pluralistic society, uh 423 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:16.760 reminds me of a very similar kind of makeup of a country like I see 424 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:22.000 in Boutin's Russia. And we should all be worried about that, because that's 425 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:28.119 that's not that's not good. Um. You know, we we you know, 426 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:32.400 we value our liberties and our that's what the constitution, the rule book 427 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.719 we're also plosed to play, uh you know along, I mean, we're 428 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:40.199 we're we're you know, we come from so many it's that great scene and 429 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.039 in kind of um in one of the Spielberg's kind of underrated films, UH, 430 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:50.159 where it's uh The Bridge of Spies, I believe, where Tom Hanks 431 00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:53.719 has that great, that great um, you know speech that he gives to 432 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.360 the CIA guy who's trying to twist him in the bar in Berlin about you 433 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:05.199 know, kind of you know, betray betray client lawyer privilege, you know, 434 00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:07.599 don't worry about it. It's just the bending of the rules. And 435 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:13.000 Hanks's character makes a very good point in that we all come from different places 436 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:17.400 around the world where a nation of immigrants, there's one thing that binds us 437 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.480 all together, and that's the idea of America embodied in the Constitution. And 438 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:27.920 so to chip away at that, you know, the Russians don't have a 439 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:34.199 history like that we do, and to see it chipped away at very similar 440 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.840 to what is you know, existent in Russia it has been for quite some 441 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:43.559 time. It's sad to see it's it's um and also, hey, let's 442 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:47.679 I'm also one who firmly believes that we are the war that is going on 443 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:54.920 right now between autocracies in particular Russia and liberal democracies is not just on the 444 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:00.559 battlefield. There's an information war going on. And Um, there are fellow 445 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:06.400 travelers in what are called, you know, fellow travelers in America who hold 446 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:13.280 very similar white Christian nationalist ideals that has been that has been used in Russia 447 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.559 for you know, a long long period of time, arguably centuries, and 448 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:22.320 they find commonality. And it's about the idea that there is no such thing 449 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:27.119 as in the rule of law, the rights of man, the bill of 450 00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:30.599 rights. Those are all nice, little trite things. This is the cynical 451 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:37.360 Russian perspective on that of those are all nice and good, but because you're 452 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.880 born, you know, there is no such thing as a bill of rights 453 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:46.480 in Russia. It's you win the rights that you get in Russia. It's 454 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:53.920 it's a much more um brutal but naturalistic kind of perception of how power exists. 455 00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.199 And I just don't want to see that happen in America. And I'm 456 00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:07.199 getting scared that the fellow travelers that hold similar ideas between this white Christian nationalism 457 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:12.960 in Russia and when I see growing malignantly in America, UM gives me really 458 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.760 serious cause for concern. And just you know, to wrap this up. 459 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:21.119 Also, you began by you know, saying Ukrainians are fighting for the antithesis 460 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:27.239 of that white Christian nationalism you see in Russia. They're looking for pluralism, 461 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.679 they're looking for democracy, they're looking for the rule of law. It's going 462 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.119 to be very hard, it's gonna be extremely hard. They're gonna they're they're 463 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:37.039 fighting against corruption, they're fighting against, you know, this kind of model 464 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:43.559 that Russia tried to, you know, maintain here, and the Ukrainians are 465 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:46.239 rejecting it, and they're rejecting it, and they're spinning a lot of treasure 466 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:52.280 and blood. And so there's a very widespread feeling here in Ukraine that it 467 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:57.559 has to have meant something. So after this war, I strongly believe, 468 00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:04.760 having spoken to you know, thousands of Ukrainians, that not only do they 469 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.360 want to win this war, they want to be a shining beacon of an 470 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:13.000 idea that you can throw off autocracy and you can build you can you find 471 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:17.079 soil where you could plant that seed and a real liberal democracy that is an 472 00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:22.199 example to the entire continent. If not the world can grow out of the 473 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:30.400 decay of a brutal impire like Russia, and I hope, I sure hope 474 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:32.920 they do it, and I think they can. But it is humbling to 475 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.480 see these people fighting as hard as they can, dedicating so much of their 476 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:44.639 lives to this cause, and then to see it being you know, undermined 477 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:49.840 in America. Its humbling to be here, and it does make me want 478 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.679 to kind of grab America by the collar and kind of slap it around the 479 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.679 face once twice and say, you know, wake up. You've got a 480 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.519 good thing here and there are people who would die for what you have and 481 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:04.960 you're willing to chuck it away for base domestic power politics. It's you know, 482 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.960 it's disheartening to see there, and it's encouraging to see here. I 483 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.440 just hope that we take a little a couple of lessons from the Ukrainians at 484 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.199 some point. It's it's so funny, it was, that was very very 485 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:20.840 next question, what lessons should we take from Ukraine? You just you just 486 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.239 gave us perhaps the biggest. What else would you say we should we should 487 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:29.159 learn from this conflict? What should we take from it? You can't that 488 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:34.440 you can't let a bully or you know, a lion who has blood on 489 00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.480 his fangs. Um just sit there, uh, you know, and and 490 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:46.360 just ignore it because it's expedient for you um or to hope that a conflict 491 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.960 that we can all see was intangible and almost you know, inevitable, to 492 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.000 just stick our heads in the sand and hope that it'll just go away. 493 00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:59.280 And you know, maybe if we ignore it or we just kind of try 494 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:04.199 and make everybody play nice, it'll go away. We never should have accommodated 495 00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:09.920 Putin, and we should never have ignored the threat and the belligerency that was 496 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:14.159 growing within Russia. I mean, I was in Georgia in two thousand and 497 00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.039 eight, and I remember reporting for CBS News and one of the most important 498 00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:23.199 things I said to CBS News Radio was that, you know, one one 499 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:29.039 important thing message coming out of the Kremlin in the two thousand and eight war 500 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:34.559 and Georgia was we are going to pursue our national interests, regardless of what 501 00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.719 it means on the global stage. We'll break international law, We'll do whatever 502 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:43.719 we want. We're gonna you know, and also we're going to act in 503 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.519 you know, in our interests regardless of the interests of other nations or regional 504 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:54.960 you know, stability. And it was basically, you know, we should 505 00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:00.519 have learned in two thousand and eight that this guy was going to keep pushing 506 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:05.800 to restore the Russian Empire and he wasn't going to stop, and we should 507 00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:10.079 have anticipated this war a lot better than we did. And then finally, 508 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.920 the one of the lessons, I mean, there are a lot more lessons 509 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.679 than just this handful I'm giving you here, but what you know, in 510 00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:22.920 my opinion, Um, but one other thing was, um, the incrementalism 511 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:28.320 and the the oh, let's not let's be afraid of the Kremlin, so 512 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.199 let's not be too nice to the Ukrainians. The incrementalism of giving one weapons 513 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:36.400 system and then we'll think about it. No, maybe we'll give you well, 514 00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:37.719 we'll give you anti tank weapons, sure, sure, yeah, And 515 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:43.440 then you know, maybe maybe we'll give you long range mississ systems in the 516 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:45.280 form of the high Marson. Okay, well, all right, we'll do 517 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:49.079 that, and then you know, maybe we'll give you, you know, 518 00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:52.920 main battle tanks, including the Abrahms. Okay, you know, and the 519 00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:59.280 Russians I'm sorry, the Ukrainians has said all along that this incrementalism has caused 520 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.159 Ukrainians. If you guys had just decided to do this from the get go. 521 00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:07.360 Actually, if you really armed us back after twenty fourteen, because we 522 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:13.159 all knew this was coming, then we could have avoided this. You can't. 523 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:16.639 You have to stand up to bullies, and sometimes that means be an 524 00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:21.679 armed to the teeth and ready to punch the bully in the nose when he 525 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.199 comes for you. And we didn't do it, and we should have. 526 00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:29.360 Interesting, I've researched a little bit and I wanted to know what Gandhi's thoughts 527 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.719 were on violence, and he said, if I would, I would take 528 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:39.119 violence over cowardice. Is I guess to simplify his response, when you in 529 00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:43.000 other words, you got sometimes you have to stand up to a bully and 530 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:46.239 you got to punch him in the nose. You just do what's what's what's 531 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:51.199 in the future for you have to And that's what Budin was. We should 532 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:57.519 have known him in the beginning. Well for you, Well, I just 533 00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.400 that's funny you should say that because I just day was granted a renewal of 534 00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:07.719 my press accreditation. Uh so I'm gonna as long as I have that press 535 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:14.519 accreditation, I can stay here, uh beyond the normal six months, you 536 00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:19.639 know, just tourist visa sort of thing. Um, So I'm sticking. 537 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:25.400 I'm gonna stick around. We'll see what happens with the the whatever this offensive, 538 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:30.039 counter offensive or you know, campaign that happens in the coming months. 539 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:36.119 Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay on top of that. Uh. And 540 00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:43.079 I'll continue to I'll continue to put out logs on my YouTube channel. UM. 541 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.000 I'm hoping to expand my audience as best I can. Um, just 542 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:52.800 you know, not for my own uh advantage. But um, and a 543 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:57.559 border on ego here when I say this, But you know, the question 544 00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:00.519 is am I doing it for myself? Or am I doing for a cause 545 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:07.719 that I genuinely believe in? And where does ego and and and a self? 546 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.880 But I will say that I want to expand my audience because I genuinely 547 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.079 feel I have a perspective on the war here and on the people of Ukraine 548 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.559 that is not widely spread. Look, you and I come from you know, 549 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:24.039 CBS, We come from corporate. We know what the structure of the 550 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:29.400 news business is. And the structure, unfortunately of the news business, whether 551 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:34.079 it's CNN, CBS, AL Jazeera, Fox, take your pick, it 552 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:38.880 doesn't matter. The structure does not lend itself to really digging in deep into 553 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:43.639 who are these people, why are they doing this, Why is this happening, 554 00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:47.119 Why are the Russians doing this? What's the motivation there? Where does 555 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:52.159 this come from? And where does this go to? And how important this 556 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.280 is? Basically, you know, what I hope to do is to give 557 00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:04.639 context and complexity to the headline you get in on your televisions. Uh, 558 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:07.639 and certainly from you know, there are only a few of us over here 559 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.159 blogging, vlogging, what have you. Um, you don't you know, 560 00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:16.320 you don't get from other sources either. So I'm I genuinely want to grow 561 00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:21.880 my audience. So if anybody you know is interested in talking to me and 562 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:23.599 that you know, I'm happy to do that. In the more ears I 563 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:28.639 can get on, great, the better because you know, not again not 564 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.880 from my own you know advantage, but basically because I really do believe, 565 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.639 um, I provide a bit of context and a perspective that you're not going 566 00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:42.760 to hear elsewhere. So UM, that's my that's my pitch to follow my 567 00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:45.360 vlog just just my name Philip it or all one word, one L and 568 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:51.159 Philip two ts and it or over a YouTube and um, I'm hoping to 569 00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:55.119 put out some other things as well that that people will hopefully be able to 570 00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:59.199 learn a little bit more than just what they're seeing on their TV or what 571 00:46:59.239 --> 00:47:04.840 they're reading, you know, on the web. So we'll fill your intelligent 572 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:07.880 conversation is always welcome here on being Frank, you always give us a great 573 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:12.239 perspective. You've been here what about a half a dozen times now, and 574 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.960 you'll always appreciate it. I'll come back and I'll use one of my favorite 575 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.840 words, right, I certainly appreciate it. Frank, you're you're a man 576 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:21.519 should a true sense of the word. I love that that word. It 577 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:25.039 just in a single word, captures so much. Keep keep keep doing it, 578 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:30.000 brother, keep going. Of course, we'd like to thank you, 579 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:32.400 all right, we'll do, Frank, thank you our pleasure always. We'd 580 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:37.559 like to give us special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give 581 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:39.920 us a voice in their lives as well. And remember we offer a fresh 582 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:45.320 topic every week and you can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite 583 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:50.840 podcasts. That's Apples, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Speaker and all the others. 584 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.719 You can also check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. 585 00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:59.360 Just go to the Being Frank tab. Okay, leave you with a couple 586 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:05.599 of last It's from Thomas Paine, when my opinion is really an underrated philosopher 587 00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.519 and truly great founding father an American, and he said, a body of 588 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:17.039 men holding themselves unaccountable to nobody, ought not to be trusted by anybody. 589 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:22.159 Brilliant. It's brilliant. And let's leave you some brilliant great music from a 590 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:25.480 good friend, former co worker. And it's just a kick ass tune. 591 00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:30.960 It's called Garrett and it's by Bob Perry. Thank you once again for listening 592 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:34.880 to Being Frank. Thanks to Neil Richter for keeping us going here streaming at 593 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:39.159 Hudson River Radio dot com. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. Remember being 594 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:43.880 Frank is the only way to be Okay. We'll see you next week. 595 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:54.280 Thanks for listening. West spend night in jail. In the morning, he 596 00:48:54.559 --> 00:49:04.719 was due to be rain about the game and that being better me judge sends 597 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:14.400 him ninety days. He was sent to a direction of facility where it counted 598 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:20.639 down the days. He was all at thirty five on a Wednesday when he 599 00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:29.880 died. And the story gets less clear by the day. Shot inside of 600 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:36.079 sound, Garret's roommate screamed up him. He hasn't had his medicine. Days 601 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:44.239 before the clouds arrived, he'd already died. And the story gets less clear 602 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:52.519 a five days season. No one has an answer, just want to happen 603 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:59.079 on that day. What a man he might have been. But he got 604 00:49:59.159 --> 00:52:00.599 that answer. Gary, he was trying to Garry died. Hudson rivereo dot com