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What's up y'all is Drewski and I've
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hilarious new basketball podcast called The Due
Zone with Drewski. Learn the backstories of

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your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal
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team? Was it the Raptors at
the time? Or no? Was the

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00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,760
Raptors even started on the topic?
Come on, bro Hid, tell you

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like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues,
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Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, there we have Blueire.

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Just wanted to take a second thank
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You know everything outside is pretty scary
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What is krack alacking hardware knocks the
listeners? I am dan fa Valley

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00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:19,480
coming out you once again without my
co host Andrew D. Bally. We

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00:01:19,519 --> 00:01:25,599
do have our top ten Charlotte Hornet's
player rankings for the past decade to go

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00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,000
through with MBA Maths and Bleacher Reports. Adam frommel we'll speak with him in

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a minute. Just want to remind
you, implore you, beg plead with

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you to continue rating, reviewing,
and subscribing to us on iTunes. You

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can also get us wherever else you
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Art nineteen, all those good places, Google Play, we are everywhere.

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Subscribe, rate, review, download
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iTunes is still the best way to
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so please make sure you do that. If you have done all that help

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people about us, retweet the promotions
that we have up on Twitter. If

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you've enjoyed this series where we're rolling
out our rankings the top ten players for

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00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:12,560
every team over the past decade,
please consider making sure that you're downloading the

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episode. Should you be streaming hit
on a nbamath dot com and subscribing to

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us, rating us, it really
does help us out and we appreciate it.

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You can follow us on Twitter at
Hardwood Knox. You can also follow

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us on YouTube YouTube dot com search
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I have a playlist built that will
have all of these rankings up as they

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come out, so that should help
you. Also, make sure that you're

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following the Blueire podcast network on Twitter
at blue Wire Pods. Last, but

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certainly not least, shout out to
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ag promo code at blue Wire is
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So head over there and enter promo
code blue Wire. All one word before

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we do start talking with Adam,
however, I did want to go through

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a news update since it's been a
while since we've talked about anything that's semi

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current event related. As we go
through this historical project, let's start with

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the coronavirus updates. Of course,
the NBA players who have been diagnosed with

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it apparently have recovered. We're talking
about Christian Wood, Marcus Smart, both

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Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert of the
Utah Jazz. I believe we don't know

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the names of the two Lakers players
that were that tested positive, but they

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have since recovered. I do not
believe that there's been an update on the

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NETS players, though I could be
mistaken. We know that Kevin Durant was

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one of them and that there were
three others, so that's something to consider

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there. Along those same lines,
Brian Wynhorst of ESPN dot com reported that

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the Chinese government issued in order to
delay the restart of the Chinese Basketball Association

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in addition to other group sporting events. This is of course a blow to

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anyone hoping to see sports again this
year. This season for the NBA specifically,

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everyone sort of looking to China,
who is dealing with a little bit

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of a second way outbreak of coronavirus
there. It seems they're sort of looking

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to them to be this figure of
the future, to see what we might

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be in store for us. Most
people seem to be pessimistic about whether they'll

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be an NBA season this year to
be finished. The regular season kind of

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feels like it's almost out of the
question. Maybe we can get some type

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of playoffs and abbreviated postseason or something, but most people, the general feeling

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is that this year is not just
that risk that it's pretty much done.

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I do have. That's sort of
where I lean, It's where I've always

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lented, But I tend to be
inherently pessimistic when it comes to these things.

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So there is still an element of
waiting and seeing here, because we

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know the league is going to draw
out their final decisions as long as possible,

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if they have to have the NBA
Finals in October or even November,

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depending on what's going on with the
NFL regular season. I could see a

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scenario in which they're they're doing that. Of course, that brings up the

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question of how does that impact the
off season. Maybe you could still hold

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the draft virtually when you would have, but then how do you resume a

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season where they're technically rookies on your
team, whether they're not a part of

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your roster at that point. There's, of course the free agency process to

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consider. Again, we have to
wait and see here things certainly you don't

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feel great about it. Also,
on a similar topic, we saw that

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ESPN and ESPN two broadcasted the NBA
two K Tournament, which was light on

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trash talk. I'll say from from
the moments I watched of it during Night

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number one. Anyway, I'm recording
this on a Sunday, which will be

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the second night of that tournament.
I picked Michael Porter Junior to win it

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all. So if you're listening to
this after he beat or lost to Devin

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Booker, I'm either going to be
bragging and doing a victory lap or I'm

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going to be very wrong. But
according to ESPN's Issue Warznarowski, the NBA

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and ESPN are working on televising a
horse competition that will involve several high profile

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players. This of course cannot be
done on location with the players together,

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and so you're limiting this to players
with home or at least a set up

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where they have I guess a viable
basketball hoops set up. If it's strictly

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players with home gyms, I'm talking
about the Lebron James Is. This idea

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is classist and I will not stand
for it, unless, of course,

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Frankie Lakina has a home gym and
has asked to partake, in which case

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this is the best idea ever.
On an actual serious note, people were

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making fun of this on Twitter,
and I can see why others want classic

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games to be shown, maybe with
players sort of narrating their their own performances

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from years past analyzing what they did. We're talking current players here or even

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you know, former players. Stuff
like that can be interesting. The NBA

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and ESPN broadcast partners, they're trying
to do something and I can at least

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appreciate that, And so I think, let people enjoy this if they want

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to see it, because it does
seem like it's going to happen. Make

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the jokes, and that's where people, I feel like, have this misperception

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that Twitter is for nuance. It
can be when you're doing a thread,

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but you know, nuance to me
is for podcasts, for articles. They're

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you know, the persona you have
on Twitter. Yes, there's a risk

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of people not taking you seriously.
I myself have heard it a bunch of

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times that people are surprised at how
nice I am when they talk to me

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because of I guess the air that
I give off on Twitter with my terrible,

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terrible jokes, and that's you know
what, That's fine Twitter. If

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you're going to do a thread,
it can be for nuance, but the

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jokes on Twitter or just that they're
jokes. If there are people that really

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want to enjoy this, I don't
think that we should actually be demeaning them

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or even the NBA for attempting to
try something. There are a lot more

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important things that we can harp on
that the league has gotten wrong. Moving

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on from this, though, the
Chicago Bulls, it appears the gar Packs

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era in Chicago is kind of sort
of maybe over a little bit. We

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don't we don't really know according to
who the Bulls and this is a direct

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quote now have embarked on a formal
search process to hire a new top executive

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with full authority on basketball decisions.
We already know that gar Foreman was put

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in sort of a reduced role,
and it seems like John Paxson, the

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vice president of basketball operations, is
going to follow suit. Among the candidates

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the Bulls are expected to interview,
one of them is not Pacers GM Chad

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Buchanan. He has removed his name
from consideration. That's a big win for

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the Pacers. Just anyone saying that
they'd rather be with the Indiana than a

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more of a i'll call it a
hallmark flagship franchise than Chicago. I think

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it says a lot about what Indiana
has built there. Maybe also Buchanan just

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doesn't want to uproot his life which
is also perfectly fair. Other names that

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have been mentioned the Raptors GM Bobby
Webster and Nuggets general manager our tourists carniche

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Fast. I tried. I tried
to look this up phonetically beforehead it is

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carniche Vas. So those are the
names that we have so far. The

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interviews are expected to begin next week, per Woge. What I will say

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is that I remain skeptical of any
organization that is making basketball operations overhauls but

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then keeping many of the key figures
from the current regime within the organization.

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Point to the Knicks with Steve Mills
still being employed by them, and so

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this is an excited time or time
to be excited for Bulls fans, but

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you should also probably still be a
little bit nervous. Jerry Ryan's ORF is

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still there, and again both Garfeman
and John Paxson could still remain employed by

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the organization. You have to imagine
at least one of them will continue to

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have the ear of people in charge
and perhaps carry real weight, and that's

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always a danger given what they've done. The final news item will go over

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is actually another rumor. According to
CMB Sports Businesses Jabari Young Damar de Rosen

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is not happy in San Antonio,
and he's sort of intimated that maybe Damar

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would decline his player option ahead of
free agency this year and enter the open

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market. I remain skeptical that this
will actually happen. Damar has a twenty

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seven point seven million dollar player option. I'm not trying to criticize the type

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of player he is. He's an
awkward fit on a lot of teams,

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but he is still really good for
what he can do as both a scorer

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and a playmaker out of the pick
and roll. It's just that there has

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00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,240
to be a very specific set of
players around him. It's not I wouldn't

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say it's the same as what Houston
has done with Russell Westbrooks arounding him with

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four shooters, but it's the same
idea because their styles are different. But

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I think that's where he needs to
be. The Spurs certainly just don't have

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that optionality. Even having LaMarcus Aldrich
take more threes that that helps, but

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it can only do so much when
you also have Derek White Jejantha Murray there.

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You're not really stockpiled with shooters.
When you're looking at their roster and

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what they have over the longer term. Now. If Demard Rozen hits free

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agency, however, though, I
struggle to find a team, and again

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this isn't to necessarily criticize him,
but I struggle to find a team that

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would offer him more than the mid
level exception, which is projected to come

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in around right now with the starting
salary of nine point eight ish million dollars,

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and that will come down if the
salary cap projections come down. Because

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of the hiatus that the NBA is
on right now, whatever you want to

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call it, the suspension of play, there aren't a ton of teams with

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cap space. Of the ones that
do, you're looking at Charlotte, Troy,

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New York, Atlanta, Miami.
I don't think Miami would go after

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him. That's been sort of a
popular or semi popular, offbeat scenario.

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Where could Damar work in Miami?
I don't think that makes any sense.

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00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:18,200
Could you count on not so much
Atlanta just because they have Trey Young,

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I'll wet already, and they've invested
in a lot of wings who can be

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secondary ball handlers. But Charlotte,
Detroit or New York, if one of

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00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:28,759
them gets desperate for a name in
free agency maybe, and so you know,

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00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:31,960
if they're gonna come in with three
years, sixty million or something around

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there, it would make sense for
him to opt out. There are a

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00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,720
couple of wild cards on the market. Phoenix can have cap space if it

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does a few things did over Dallas, depending on what happens with Tim Hardaway

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Junior's player option. He's not a
fit on either of those squads, and

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so if he's looking at mid level
exception money, it would take him three

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00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,600
years at that level to recoup the
player option he'd lose. I just don't

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see it happening. Maybe he can
opt out and then work out assign and

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trade with the Spurs to go to
another team. I still just fail to

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00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:05,360
see where the obvious fit is,
and so my expectation would be that he

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opts in and then maybe the Spurs
look to move him later. Perhaps they

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00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,200
can send him to Orlando. That
was a team that was rumored to be

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interested in him at the trade deadline. I don't know that they'd be interested

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in him for sign and trade money, just because they have some really wonky

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long term books there. But he's
certainly someone to monitor, a big name,

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00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,600
a quality offensive player. Again,
though, just tough to fit in

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00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:28,960
with certain team dynamics that it seems
like it takes a very specific supporting cast

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for him to be at his peak. That's what we've really seen in San

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Antonio. They don't have the talent
around him to maximize him, and there

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are a few teams that do.
And even if they have the flexibility to

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00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:43,639
do that, I still don't think
he's someone that you build your team around.

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00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,679
And so do you have a better
number one option who also fits alongside

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00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,000
the Rosen because he can play a
ton off the ball and really spaces the

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00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,200
floor for you. I just don't
know where that fit is. You can

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00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,039
get at me on Twitter if you
want to suggest an Atlantic spart for de

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00:12:56,159 --> 00:12:58,840
Rosen and we can talk it out. Aside from Orlando, which they don't

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have personnel either, it just seems
that they want anyone who can really create

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from scratch from the point of attack, other than you know, Vujevich in

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00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,840
the post or what they're getting out
of Marquel folks this year. We don't

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00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,159
know what the future is for Evan
Fournier, who has a player option.

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00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:16,159
So if they're bringing all of those
guys back, you know, let's say

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00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:18,600
Evan Fournia doesn't opt out. I
don't know how good of a fit de

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00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,320
Rosen is there. Maybe it helps
having both him and Fournier, but they

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have a ton of of non shooters
there already. Moving on, though,

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let's get to our decade all decade
player rankings for the Charlotte Hornets. We're

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gonna be talking with NBA Maths Founder
editor in chief Adam Framo. Follow him

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00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,440
on Twitter at Framo zero nine,
and as ever, also follow NBA Math

203
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,879
at NBA Underscore Math to participate in
these composite rankings that were compiling. There

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00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:46,159
are a lot of fun and based
on the feedback we've been getting, you

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00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,879
seem to enjoy them. So let's
get Let's get to it. March is

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00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,159
over hard. When Knox listeners it
was the longest millennia of our lives,

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experts, Adam, how is it
going? It's going pretty well. I'm

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00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,159
a little scared though, just because
we thought that the Brooklyn Nets podcast in

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00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:54,600
this series was going to be rough. This one, this one's gonna be

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00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:58,159
rougher. I don't know that I'm
like fully mentally prepared for this. This

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00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,440
is not This is not a good
quarantine mental health activity. Yes, I

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agree with you. There were also
both ass hats for overplaying how tough Brooklyn

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was. When we knew that we
had Charlotte right on the horizon. It

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would have taken like one cursory glance
to realize we could have just bassed at

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least in the certainty of Brooklyn's top
six. They at least had that Charlotte

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no such thing. Hey, hey, Charlotte has a top one. Let's

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00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:24,720
let's give them some credit here.
It wasn't consensus though, we're universal,

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00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:28,879
whatever you want to call I'm just
I'm annoyed by that. But we did

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get one. We actually got a
little bit of a spoiler here, but

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we got two stray first place votes, one of which we deleted. One

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went. One went to Michael kid
Gilchrist, which we'll talk about later,

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and the other one to Chris Paul
and also had Tyson Chandler. I can't

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remember if it was second or third, but that was clearly a case of

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forgetting that the New Orleans Hornets are
not the same as the Charlotte's Hornets,

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so we deleted that one. Just
however, Chris Paul be a worthwhile pick

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if it was the same franchise,
So we give we give brownie points for

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that, unless Tyson Chandler was put
over Kemba in that exercise, because I

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think he was third. I think
he was third if I remember correctly.

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But I'm still struggling with Chris Paul
over Kemba Walker, just because it was

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still only one season of Chris Paul
in this time that's before he went to

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the Clippers, So it was it
was interesting. It's an excuse one a

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few fronts, but whatever. So
let's get into this we wanted. We're

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gonna start with the composite rankings and
then break ours down who came in.

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We had a three way tie.
I believe correct we did. We had

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00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,399
a three way tie from ninth place, which means that instead of only talking

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00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,200
about ten members of the Charlotte Hornets, we have to talk about eleven.

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And this is the content you guys
are here for. And we're going to

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start with Bismack Byambo, who finished
eleventh in the fan vote. He did

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00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:47,039
not appear in Dan's top ten,
and I actually had him at eighth.

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00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:52,200
It makes sense that we get to
start with an example of our favorite concept

251
00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,120
in this series, which is just
pure theirness. Like Bimbo never really developed

252
00:16:57,159 --> 00:17:02,200
into anything special. He was a
palatable defender. He still is. He's

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00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:04,759
a decent rebounder. He offers nothing
on offense. I think there are some

254
00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:08,920
examples of like how he spent the
least amount of time with the ball in

255
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,079
his hands of any NBA player who
plays big minutes. But to his credit,

256
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,920
the Hornets have actually been zero point
three points per one hundred possessions better

257
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,440
with him on the court throughout his
two ten years in Charlotte. So I'm

258
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,200
giving him credit for theirness here,
and I understand why you don't want to.

259
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,599
It's also his comeback roundness. He
came back. That's the only thing

260
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,920
that matter. Doesn't matter. There
was be a not voluntarily though it was

261
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,920
a trade, it was one of
the most or least noteworthy trades ever.

262
00:17:34,759 --> 00:17:40,599
He did have, so right before
there was that twenty sixteen cat boone.

263
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,960
He had the good twenty fifteen twenty
sixteen where no, he still wasn't doing

264
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,480
a ton on offense, but it
was like, oh he can really like

265
00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:51,480
be this this rim roller. And
then Orlando gave him four years and sixty

266
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four million. I believe it was
and that good for him for getting his

267
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,759
money. I just want to make
that clear whenever we criticize a contract,

268
00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:00,920
yeah, get your money. That
ended up being one of the worst signings

269
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,759
of that twenty sixteen free agency,
which is saying something because twenty six free

270
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:10,839
agency was bonkers bad in many ways. But I don't have anything to add

271
00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:12,000
there. It's just that he did
have I think What really swings it for

272
00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,240
him, if you want to put
him in here or even put him higher,

273
00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:18,119
is not just his theirness or his
comeback aroundness. It's the fact that

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00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,920
he had that really stand out twenty
fourteen twenty fifteen campaign. That's oh it

275
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,680
was in Toronto. Excuse me,
it was my timelines off here. Who

276
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,400
knows to the raptors, they just
develop all these guys. I can't believe

277
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,839
you didn't correct me while I was
speaking of a term before. So I'm

278
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:36,680
happy I didn't put him on my
list for this reason. Is I forgot

279
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,079
that he spent that one year in
Toronto where it looked like he was going

280
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,200
to be a solid rim roller.
Still didn't have the volume, but you

281
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,319
could count on him for all the
things he did, plus as a screen

282
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,480
and dive guy. I was just
gonna let you roll with it because I

283
00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:52,680
need all of the justification, whether
legitimate or not, for having him not

284
00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:57,200
just in my top ten but eighth. That's I'm like flabbergast did that.

285
00:18:57,279 --> 00:19:00,799
I'm like remembering that, and now
I think I even I was one of

286
00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:03,799
the people that overrated him, because
I believe I did free agency rankings that

287
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,519
year. But neither here nor there. I wonder if we're going to see

288
00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:10,640
that at this offseason with guys like
Fred van Vliet, where like Toronto's player

289
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,960
development is just so good, kind
of like we've seen with like San Antonio

290
00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:18,440
in some ways, where guys go
to San Antonio they in the last decade

291
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,079
they've played really well. Then they
go elsewhere and they have trouble justifying the

292
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,720
contracts just because this system isn't as
good. I mean, does Demard Rosen

293
00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:34,279
count and what's happened to maybe maybe
not so much recently. He would be

294
00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:37,039
interesting, maybe like a Chris Bouche
too is going to be there. It's

295
00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:41,119
tough because not a lot of their
develop I mean, Ronde Hollis Jefferson is

296
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,559
a free agent as well, and
he's played good this year. But Fred

297
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,759
VanVleet would be a perfect case study
in that for sure. Who do we

298
00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:51,079
got next? Also Tied at ninth, we have Gerald Wallace, who was

299
00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:53,440
tenth on the fan vote. He
did not appear in my top ten,

300
00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:56,920
he was ninth in yours. I
didn't have him there just because even though

301
00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,039
I think you can make a convincing
argument that he's the second best player in

302
00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:04,599
the franchise's history, but his All
Star season and most of his time that

303
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,359
was spend at a higher level came
before our decade. He only spent forty

304
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:14,599
eight relevant games before he ended up
in Portland midway through the twenty ten eleventh

305
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,519
season. So it was just it
was hard with only a forty eight game

306
00:20:17,559 --> 00:20:19,519
sample size for me to put him
in my top ten. Even though I

307
00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:23,799
will definitely say that I gave him
some consideration, I definitely cheated on some

308
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,319
level, and I admitted to this
before we started recording that you know what,

309
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,839
he made twenty ten all defense,
not the season uses the cut off,

310
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,319
but still in the same decade.
And so if I'm going to use

311
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,680
projection for a guy like Trey Young
for what he possibly could have done,

312
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:38,720
not just for the rest of this
year, but at the you know,

313
00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:42,000
the first half of next season,
That's part of how I justified it.

314
00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:47,519
The other thing was just a solid
guy. And do you remember when he

315
00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:51,160
was traded to the Blazers, they
actually got a pretty good haul for him,

316
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,559
not that they ended up keeping,
said Hall, but the then Bobcats

317
00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,839
traded to the Blazers Gerald Wallace for
Dante Cunningham, John Marks, Joe uh

318
00:21:02,279 --> 00:21:06,359
Chris billa Cash, a two thousand
and eleven first round pick that became Tobias

319
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,559
Harris, and a two thousand and
fourteen first round pick that became Chabazz Napier.

320
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,759
That's a lot of value for forget
about the players that were drafted.

321
00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:18,240
Tobias Harris is is really good.
That's a good haul for for Gerald Wallace

322
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,160
and he wasn't you know, his
he was never known as an offensive player,

323
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,960
but his offense wasn't at the same
level it was the year before when

324
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,880
they actually flipped him in two ten, two thousand and eleven, and so

325
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,519
that can factor into leaving him off
as well, just because he only it

326
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:34,400
wasn't even that he spent just twenty
ten, twenty eleven there, it was.

327
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,440
It was for only forty eight games, but I again I cheated.

328
00:21:38,519 --> 00:21:41,559
But then also looking at what he
got them in that hall, you know,

329
00:21:41,599 --> 00:21:45,519
they capitalized on on his value.
So I'm just gonna I'm gonna absolutely

330
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,119
roll with it. And it's just
it is wild again not this decade,

331
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,039
but it's just wild to remember that
there was a season where he averaged over

332
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,759
nineteen points per game. That's just
not a version of Gerald Wallace, and

333
00:21:56,799 --> 00:21:59,799
I think a lot of people remember. I wish we did because he was

334
00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:04,000
so much fun one a fantastic defender
too. I just don't think he was

335
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,720
ever really known for his offense,
but he was a guy I saw transition

336
00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:11,240
offense, just the leakouts and the
transition threat. Why don't you say that

337
00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:14,200
those takes for Gerald Henderson, who
I know that you're gonna vistrate when he

338
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,000
appears. Oh we have more of
that, Yeah, don't worry. I'm

339
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,079
also just impressed that we got a
Vanilla Gorilla shout out on this podcast already.

340
00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:22,440
Nolla Gorilla. I like it.
I don't think I ever heard that

341
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,720
nickname. Oh really, I thought
that was a pretty common one. Is

342
00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,680
that your favorite NBA nickname? My
favorite NBA name? No, definitely not.

343
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:34,960
I think my favorite NBA nickname is
the Dancing Bear for Yabriselli. I'm

344
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,440
standing by that one. Not in
the NBA anymore, but I love the

345
00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:41,960
Dancing Bear, just throwing. If
anyone cares, I'm gonna have to think

346
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,960
on that and get back to you
because it's an important question and I don't

347
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,920
want to that might be a good
pod. I don't want to devalue it.

348
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,480
It would be it would be who
do we have to finish out our

349
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,599
three way tie? Finishing out our
three way tie. We have a guy

350
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:59,400
who was atrocious during his rookie season, was fantastic at the start of this

351
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,720
currently spended season, and then kind
of forgot how to shoot midway through it.

352
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,279
And that is DeVante Graham, who
was ninth place from the fans.

353
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,279
He barely missed it on mine and
he was in tenth on yours. Yeah,

354
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,480
look, his rookie season was bad, but I have to wait what

355
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:17,839
he did at the beginning of this
year where he was hitting a ton of

356
00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:21,319
those off the dribble threes. And
because you have the flexibility with the franchise

357
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,799
like this to me where you can
go with small samples, I still actually

358
00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:30,079
believe what he does is really important
because if you look at Terry Rosier's shooting

359
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,720
splits when DeVante graham is off the
floor, they are fucking awful, like

360
00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,480
they are bad, and so he
has that impact on a lot of the

361
00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:41,880
other players. I thought PJ.
Washington was one, and I still watching

362
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,599
the Hornets. I will die on
that hill. The stats don't really back

363
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,000
it up. I do think it's
a case of sample size bias there,

364
00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:52,480
but I still think the threat of
what he's supposed to do. Yes,

365
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:55,440
he sucks it finishing around the rim. You're not going to have a good

366
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,359
defense if he and Terry Rozier your
backcourt, but he just alleviates a lot

367
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,599
of the burden on everybody. Yeah, it's pretty good playmaker, particularly when

368
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,039
you consider what he was last season
and the start that he had to this

369
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,279
year, though it lasted about a
quarter of the season, When you look

370
00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:12,039
at the other options you had,
and when you also consider the fact that

371
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:15,519
he was in the running not just
for most Improved Player but All Star buzz

372
00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:19,200
because it's the Eastern Conference, that
was enough to sneak him in my top

373
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,559
ten. I thought about some other
players here and we'll talk about them at

374
00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,680
the end of this podcast, but
I'm comfortable putting DeVante Graham in the Hornet's

375
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,200
his top ten. I think you
should be. I had no expectations for

376
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:33,000
him coming into this year, but
it took all of like two games to

377
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,640
totally buy in. I think what
we saw during the first part of this

378
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,119
season was legitimate and is what we're
going to see from him going forward.

379
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,119
Because you just it takes five minutes
to watch him run pick and rolls and

380
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,160
realize, like what a great feel
he has for the game, Like his

381
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:53,400
passing is always precise, it's always
under control, and yeah, his shooting

382
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,880
splits are low, but he's also
playing on a team pretty devoid of other

383
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:03,079
offensive options, and he's asked to
initiate so much while drawing the bulk of

384
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,680
the defensive attention. Like, I'm
still totally bought in on him, and

385
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:11,039
I would be shocked if he isn't
on my top ten Hornets of the twenty

386
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:17,200
twenties once we eventually get to that, I just I value theirness too much

387
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,799
and he hasn't been there. What
probably helps if you're at least allowing the

388
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,079
small window of projection that we would
have assuming there's basketball again in twenty twenty,

389
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,720
which I guarantee. Obviously, he's
under contract for next year, so

390
00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:33,720
you can almost wait that into it. I understand what you're saying, though,

391
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:36,440
but it goes It goes both ways, and if this was a different

392
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,319
franchise, there obviously might be some
issues with viewing it that way. But

393
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,319
because as we've seen with the names
that with the names, we've already talked

394
00:25:42,319 --> 00:25:45,480
about. You do have that optionality
here, and he certainly deserves it.

395
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,759
What contract would you give Devonte Graham
right now? If everyone is a free

396
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:55,079
agent. I'm like too embedded in
what the actual cap scenarios is, so

397
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,960
I'm looking at like I wouldn't really
give him more than the non tax players

398
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,079
mid level because it's like, go
get more than that. I guess there

399
00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:04,119
are some bad teams that will have
money that might consider it, but with

400
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:10,359
a drop off in his efficiency.
If you went, like if you gave

401
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,000
him the Kemba Walker Special four years
and forty eight four eight, yeah,

402
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:18,519
I would probably feel not fully comfortable
with that, but comfortable enough just because

403
00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:22,920
he's still even if he's never efficient, even if he never finishes around the

404
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,039
rim, at at least, defenses
still seem to care about the threat of

405
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:29,559
his off the dribble. Three That's
the exact number I had in my head.

406
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,599
But I wanted to make that fourth
year one of the rarely used team

407
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,920
options just because I don't think it's
proven enough for me to feel confident giving

408
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,119
a four year deal. But I
want to still because I do believe it.

409
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,200
Right, if you can just be
a primary ball handler just in a

410
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,559
vacuum. You know, it doesn't
have to be the cleanest. You wanted

411
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:49,359
to be the most efficient, but
there's value in that itself. So I'm

412
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,039
right there with you. Yeah,
we are onto number eight. This makes

413
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:57,839
it correct. Correct. So at
number eight we have Gerald Henderson, who

414
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,359
was seventh on the vote. He
was ninth on mine, and he was

415
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,440
seventh on yours. Gerald Henderson one
of the one of the shooting guards who

416
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:14,240
who forgets that shooting is one of
the words of his position. Well from

417
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,799
the outside at least, right,
he had no problems getting those transition buckets,

418
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,039
right, I mean, and that's
pretty much all he did. Because

419
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:26,079
it's it's kind of astounding that a
shooting guard who has played since from two

420
00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,039
thousand and nine through twenty seventeen never
took more than two point four three's per

421
00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:34,519
game, which was in his final
season, and never shot better than thirty

422
00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:37,440
five point three percent from three,
which was also his final season, and

423
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:45,200
did not happen in Charlotte. He
was a transition threat, and I think

424
00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:48,519
that's it. He never developed into
a playmaker. He didn't really do anything

425
00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:53,960
off the dribble. I don't have
anything more to add on his positives,

426
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,839
I feel like Pete Jerrold Henderson did
a little bit off the dribble, maybe

427
00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:03,279
a little bit, and I I
liked watching him because I enjoyed the transition

428
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,200
game and the slashers who who enjoy
crashing into the into the paint while it's

429
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,319
crowded and still making things happen.
But like I, yeah, I'm struggling.

430
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,720
I'm struggling for more positives here.
Speaking of someone who got there is

431
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:19,200
in twenty sixteen free agency when he
signed with the Sixers world was it two

432
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,240
years and fifteen million at that point
or something? That was just good?

433
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:25,559
That was good money for him at
the time, because I don't know who

434
00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:29,799
looked at You're exactly right, who
looked at the year that he had in

435
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,880
Portland and was like, I know
the Sixers, it was kind of their

436
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,920
timeline was at least a little bit
different than but that was that was certainly

437
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,559
a contract. Who do we have
at number seven? Because I have nothing

438
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,519
to add to your gerald Henderson takes
just and his theirness matters by the way,

439
00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:47,960
too. He was for sure,
I think he was He was very

440
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,599
there. Fourth in minutes for the
Hornets and six games played. Yeah,

441
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,640
so that certainly matters as well.
Shout out to Gerald Henderson. We don't

442
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,839
mean to dump all over you.
Adam does, but I don't. I

443
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,960
do a little bit. You do
a lot of bit. It was out

444
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:07,119
of it. Yeah maybe, yeah, maybe, but at least we got

445
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:11,119
through a player like relatively relatively quickly
before we were on this tangent. Yeah,

446
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,680
yeah, that's true. Who do
we have at number seven? At

447
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,759
number seven, we have a guy
who sits two spots lower on the Game's

448
00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:25,160
played rankings, and that is Jeremy
Lamb. The fans had Jeremy Lamb at

449
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,319
number eight. I had him up
at number six. You had him up

450
00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,519
at number five. I'm intrigued by
by why you had him so high,

451
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:36,160
and I'm guessing that it's just his
final season and the growth that he showed

452
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920
throughout his time in Charlotte which allowed
him to get the deal that he did

453
00:29:40,039 --> 00:29:44,160
from the Indiana Pacers, where he's
continued to be a pretty pretty solid offensive

454
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,200
presence. It wasn't just his final
season for me. There was his his

455
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:52,039
second season there. You know,
he was been a middring savant basically his

456
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,359
entire time in Charlotte. But certainly
those last two seasons. And I know

457
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,240
that's not the shot that people want
to hear about, but when you're not

458
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,000
when they're not assisted mid range jumpers, they still have some value because you're

459
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:08,240
creating your own looks there. And
so he just shot absurd percentages, you

460
00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:11,440
know, in those in between areas
while he was with the Hornets, at

461
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,480
least during those latter two seasons.
And then certainly you have you factor in

462
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,799
that jump in his third year before
or excusing me, fourth year. I

463
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:23,079
forgot. He spent four years there
right before free agency. Was their second

464
00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:26,599
best player last year, behind Kima
Walker. And there's just really no argument

465
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,480
to the contrary to have that and
just someone who, yes, he kind

466
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,079
of wished he would shoot better than
thirty three thirty four percent from three.

467
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,720
He did do that in twenty seventeen
twenty eighteen, hit thirty seven percent of

468
00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:41,799
his triples, but just to have
someone who can get to his spots make

469
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,880
some looks, I don't think.
I don't know who's how I would compare

470
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,799
him to someone on defense. I
don't view him as like this huge liability

471
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:55,119
and maybe I'm just colored by the
time he spent with the pacers this season

472
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,480
because they seem to make any wing
just into a solid defender. So perhaps

473
00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:02,559
that's a little bit too but there
are worse defenders when you're looking at twos

474
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:06,599
and threes. But specifically what he
did on offense, I think it was

475
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,759
underrated. And his finishing at the
rim it dropped off in his final season

476
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:14,079
in Charlotte, but it was mostly
consistent. You could count on him to

477
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:17,519
be in like those high to mid
sixties around the rim, which is good,

478
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,720
and looking at the players they've had
over this decade, I'm just surprised

479
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,759
he finished this low. He spent
four seasons there, and two of them

480
00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:32,359
I would say we're clearly above average
campaigns. Yeah, he's definitely In terms

481
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:36,319
of our rankings are composite rankings,
he's very much in a three person tier

482
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:41,480
with the next two people who are
tied at fifth. It was very there

483
00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,480
was very little that distinguished those three
players from each other. So I think

484
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,759
you can make like you had him
in fifth, and I think there's a

485
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:51,960
very reasonable argument for that, just
given who the other two are, which

486
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,039
we can move on to if you
want. Oh I would like to,

487
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,799
let's do it. So tied for
number five, tied for number fifth,

488
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,480
tied for number five, either one, whichever you English is less important these

489
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:06,079
days. While I can confirm we
should be yes, maybe I still yeah,

490
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:07,920
we need to do an intoxicated podcast
at some point. I'm going to

491
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:12,839
jot that down on the ideal list. Okay, that'll be the nickname Pause.

492
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:19,000
I'm totally down for that if I'm
invited for that. Oh you'll be

493
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:21,400
if we can make that out of
you, and that'll be I have not

494
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,160
drank since October twenty and eighteen,
so that would be my first first civil

495
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,880
alcohol in that time. Yeah,
that's not going to go well for you

496
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,400
then, no, I wouldn't,
but maybe it would make for good content.

497
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,640
Yeah, good anything for the content. So anyway, tied tied for

498
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,240
fifth. We have we have Michael
kid Gilchrist, who was a sixth place

499
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,160
from the fans. He was fourth
for me, and he was down at

500
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,640
eight for for you. I didn't
talk about him when you specifically for this

501
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,880
reason, when you mentioned that I
had him at number eight before. How

502
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,079
is he this high? There's not
even like I guess there's the vereness of

503
00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:00,640
course that we talk about. I
love that this has become a thing and

504
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:06,240
so he spends you know, seven
and a half seasons there, So where's

505
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,960
it eight and a half he's been
at First of all, he's been the

506
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:13,119
league forever, so seven and a
half. So, but what were like

507
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,960
his really good years? He had
twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, those two

508
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,240
seasons where he wasn't like a complete
liability on offense, and it sort of

509
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,599
looked like he was could be used
as a small ball big at the start

510
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,519
of James Rago's first season in Charlotte, but that never really panned out.

511
00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:35,039
Wasn't really part of the rotation this
year when he was healthy. So I

512
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:37,359
am a little shocked that he was
this high. I no, he's a

513
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:42,119
good at his peak, was a
quality defender, but he was such a

514
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,759
non factor on it. I think
he was better than quality during at his

515
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:50,319
peak on defense. Like the switchability
and the physicality I think did make him

516
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:54,759
a significantly above average defender. But
it is the theirness that that pushes him

517
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:57,920
up so high. I mean second
in games played, I think he's fourth

518
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,880
and minutes played, And we can't
forget that during that twenty fifteen sixteen season

519
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:05,599
he did develop into a reliable floor
spacer. I mean, how many people

520
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,800
remember that he shot forty two point
nine percent from three that season? Oh

521
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:15,440
wait, it was it was it
was on seven shots. Look, so

522
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:17,960
his defense was above average, But
what I really always felt like he couldn't

523
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,039
do was actually defend the bigger guys, like these bigger wings, and so

524
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:28,360
he was locked down if you could
put him on like smaller weaker players.

525
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,760
And Hornets fans can correct me because
they will have watched way more Charlotte Hornets

526
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,679
basketball over the past seven and a
half years than I have. But I

527
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,079
just never got that vibe from him, And so I don't want to say

528
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:43,119
I thought he was overrated on defense, because like you said, mkg in,

529
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,280
do we say in his prime?
That almost seems mean he's not even

530
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,920
did seven. We couldn't say that, okay, because he's always he had

531
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,480
really good hands, though. I
think that's the biggest thing. Like when

532
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,159
you did put him on on bigger
players, like it was dangerous for them

533
00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:00,159
to put the ball on the floor, it was it was harder for them

534
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:02,480
to get into their post moves.
Like maybe he could still get overpowered or

535
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:07,000
scored on down low, but I
think he made it tougher and was just

536
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,480
more disruptive than you would see from
a lot of guys his size. Maybe

537
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,199
I'm just penalizing him too much because
he's not Anthony Davis and that's the player

538
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:16,559
they missed. Oh. I thought
he was going to be so good coming

539
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:20,880
out of Kentucky too. That's one
of my biggest draft missfires. I was

540
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,599
totally convinced that he should be the
number two pick, that he was going

541
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:28,400
to be a star just watching him
at Kentucky, like the defensive dominance and

542
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,280
the transition dominance. I don't it's
been a while since we've seen a collegiate

543
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:38,760
prospect who is that good finishing in
transition. Yeah, there was a point

544
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:44,039
in his career it felt like it
dropped off where he was a threat on

545
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:45,800
the break. And well, perhaps
that helps, and maybe I had him

546
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,400
too low. It's just I really
only remember the one season. Was it

547
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,360
his third year? I should be
looking at this. I think it was

548
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,159
his third season. I remember he
was going on offense. And then of

549
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,280
course you mentioned the season where he
shot forty two point nine percent and seven

550
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,639
to ten three seven. He only
played seven games that year too, That's

551
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:06,840
where his career high points for the
game come from telve point seven. And

552
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,880
that's that's kind of the season where
we thought he was going to be putting

553
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,840
it together a little bit too.
We saw some of the shooting improvements and

554
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,320
and shout out to to MKG for
having some of the most horrific jump shooting

555
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:22,039
form in NBA history. Like,
I did he learn how to play basketball

556
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,519
before ever watching anyone play basketball?
Yeah? I don't, And it just

557
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,239
it. I actually have not seen
him. He barely played this year,

558
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,239
so I haven't seen him a bunch
either. I don't understand, like how

559
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,119
your elbow ends up like above your
head and out to the side when you're

560
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:40,280
shooting a jumper, like your dominant
elbow. I just I never understood,

561
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,760
like how it's like Jim Furick,
except it didn't work. It was like,

562
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,880
I don't even it was like kind
of if Kevin Martin was drunk while

563
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,239
he was shooting, like a little
bit no, because you wanted the release

564
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,440
point was higher than than Kevin Martin's. That's a bad that's a bad example.

565
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,920
But if you look at it too, he like actually makes with his

566
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,280
elbows like these two distinct ells when
he's going up for it. Yeah,

567
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,920
it defies explanation, but this is
all coming from a place of love,

568
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,400
because I think we both liked MKG
just for the energy. Speaking of nicknames,

569
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,639
when you talk about simplicity and the
acronyms that work, MKG I've always

570
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:21,639
liked. It's a solid one.
Yeah, that might have been the nicest

571
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:25,079
thing I said about him. Super
good defender though, and look if you

572
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,719
so while you were talking, I
did google MKG jump Shop for him,

573
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,199
just to look at it again.
He's given us some good pictures. There

574
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:36,360
are some pretty good shooting, but
you would never know that he was shooting

575
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,599
right. No, no, well, I don't even know what you could

576
00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:46,320
mistake if or unfortunately, so from
from one player that we were not kind

577
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,880
to to another who I'm sure we're
going to have nothing but good things to

578
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,400
say about. Also tied for fifth, we have Nicholas Patoun, who was

579
00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:58,159
fifth from the fans, who was
seventh from me, who was sixth from

580
00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:02,559
you, also a member of this
three person some tier. What a disappointment

581
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:08,119
right like he was in Portland.
He was this versatile, do everything,

582
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:14,360
weighing like a very modern player who
managed to contribute in just about every area.

583
00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:16,559
And I guess. He still managed
to contribute in just about every area

584
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:22,119
in Charlotte. It's just they weren't
good contributions. His first season there was

585
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:24,639
really good. It's first like two
seasons there, but then the drop off

586
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:29,519
came quickly. Yeah, and his
second season was actually probably better than his

587
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:35,920
first two individually. Just he apologized
for it too earlier this year. I

588
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,679
don't know if you saw that that
he basically admitted he didn't live up to

589
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,880
his contract, and I kind of
respect that too. I also respect that

590
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,639
he didn't become like a problem publicly
or behind the scenes while he wasn't playing.

591
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,880
He very much understood the position or
the direction that the Hornets were going,

592
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,039
And I do like that about him. Is it weird? Look,

593
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,880
here's what I like about him.
Just if you had to pick an NBA

594
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,039
player during let's if we went back
a couple of years, it was most

595
00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:06,000
likely to log the five by five
stat line. He would have been right

596
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:08,280
on that list. Who else would
have been on there? Draymond Green maybe

597
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,719
twenty sixteen, Draymond Green, Oh, definitely Draymond Green. People get mad

598
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,800
because I pronounced his name like that. I don't know why I do it.

599
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,159
Either. I guess you could always
put Lebron in that, but but

600
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:22,239
Touma was always sort of right up
there. And is it weird that I

601
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,320
feel like he could still I want
him. I want him to get bought

602
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,199
out from Charlotte or something, because
he's not declining his player option twenty seven

603
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,559
point one million dollars for anyone who
wants to rehash that five year contract.

604
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,800
They gave him five year, one
hundred twenty million, And I'll admit that

605
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,880
that was part of the reason I
dropped him a little bit down in my

606
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,039
rankings. I had him ahead of
Jeremy Lamb at first, but ultimately dropped

607
00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:47,960
him down because when you signed that
owners of a contract, it's it's harder

608
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,920
to build a quality team around around
him. And like it's not his fault

609
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,760
for accepting the money, for them
thinking he was worth the money, but

610
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,440
like, ultimately, like if we're
looking at the greatest Charlotte or it's of

611
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,760
the decade, that that matters to
me. No, I'm one hundred percent

612
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,079
with you there, And the fact
that he kind of it's been like two

613
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:14,159
seasons where I would say three where
yeah, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen just

614
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:19,800
massively disappointing. But then last year, still getting playing time over thirty minutes

615
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,320
a game, appeared in seventy five
games, just wouldn't shoot. He had

616
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:29,480
there was a point where he had
he was averaging fewer shots per thirty six

617
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:37,079
minutes than Bismack Biyombo. And that's
just like the ultimate low point. So

618
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:43,199
these past three seasons have just been
been wildly disappointing on his right. Like

619
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:46,320
I think if you if after his
second season in Charlotte, you told us

620
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:54,039
that he was going to average like
ten five and five's, that seems realistic,

621
00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:59,519
but like three point six four point
five and three in twenty two games

622
00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:01,440
this year, fifth year of that
contract really kills him. And it's look,

623
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,480
that was the market in because because
that was the summer of twenty sixteen,

624
00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:07,920
it was it was another one of
those the market would have given him

625
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,280
a four year max somewhere else.
But the fifth yet really, I mean,

626
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,599
it kills Charlotte. It killed Charlotte's
flexibility. So there's there's that,

627
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:19,559
but you're you're actually right. And
then again just the level of disappointment this

628
00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:22,039
year not so much because you sort
of expected this to happen, but certainly

629
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:27,960
the past two seasons where it's like, okay, there's no after twenty seventeen,

630
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,079
twenty eighteen, Nicholas Petun can't possibly
get any worse. And then I

631
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,400
did. Do you think do you
think if I if I talk about our

632
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,280
fourth place guy for a little bit
here, do you think you can find

633
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,079
where we one of us had him
in free agency rankings for twenty sixteen?

634
00:41:42,039 --> 00:41:44,920
Uh, Nicholas Beatum, Yes I
can. Yeah, So let's do that.

635
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,760
So while Dan is looking that up, I will reveal that we had

636
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,000
Al Jefferson at fourth in the composite
rankings, and it's really the beginning of

637
00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:57,960
a new tier that stopped short of
number one. No, I think the

638
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,960
next three players are all grouped together
pretty closely. They're they're definitely not separated

639
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,760
by much. In our composite rankings. Al Jefferson was actually second place for

640
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,760
the fans, He was fifth place
for me, he was fourth place for

641
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,079
Dan. And I think that all
of those are like fairly reasonable reasonable spots

642
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,000
to have him. He only spent
three years in Charlotte, didn't make any

643
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,719
All Star teams or anything, but
his first season especially like he was very

644
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,960
very good, still playing that that
old school style, operating from the left

645
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,559
block almost exclusively. But he averaged
twenty one point eight points and ten point

646
00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:34,559
eight rebounds while shooting fifty point nine
percent during his first season in Charlotte,

647
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:37,000
And given what we've seen from the
players we've already talked about, like that

648
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:40,239
one season alone, had he left
to go elsewhere, would probably have been

649
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,679
enough to get him in the top
ten. And then combine that with his

650
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,960
next two seasons where he was declining
but still effective, especially on offense.

651
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,719
I get the argument for having him
as high as two. I totally understand

652
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,199
it. And the teams with him
they had the what was it, the

653
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:59,480
one bad year they won like thirty
three games or something, but the teams

654
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,400
with him just seem to work.
That twenty fifteen twenty sixteen Charlotte Hornet's team,

655
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:07,960
Yes, in retrospect, they probably
overachieved, and it did lull them

656
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:12,119
into reinvesting in that core, Nicholas
Pertuna being one of them. That team

657
00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:15,679
was fun. That first round series
was the Heat going to seven games.

658
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,519
That was just a fun team,
and I associate Al Jefferson with that.

659
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:22,719
He was there. Kema Walker was
always their number one option, but they

660
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:28,119
would really go to him in the
post and they would rely on his playmaking.

661
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:30,760
Where's ability just to like that combination
of brute force and finesse that he

662
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,119
could show down there did I obviously
did not have him too as you mentioned,

663
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,280
but I could see the case for
putting him at two mostly, and

664
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,880
I think I think it's important that
he was a central part of both Charlotte

665
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,519
teams that made the playoffs in this
last decade. Neither of them advanced out

666
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:47,800
of the first round. They've missed
the playoffs eight times. They've had some

667
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,760
of the worst seasons in NBA history
during this ten years stretch. But yeah,

668
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,880
they made the playoffs twice, and
he actually was the Windshares leader.

669
00:43:55,159 --> 00:44:00,679
And on the first of those two
to hear Nicholas Pertume requests you and I,

670
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,519
it's gonna be really high. It
was published under my name, but

671
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,079
you and I tagged the team this
We ranked in the top fifty free agents

672
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:10,800
of twenty sixteen. We ranked Nicholas
between number six. Now, just to

673
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,400
give you context on who was around
him, Number five in front of him

674
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:19,159
was Andre Drummond. Number four was
this on white side by the way.

675
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Number seven was Mike Conley behind Nicholas. Wow, Okay, we also had

676
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,320
Dwayne Wade behind Nichas between at that
point, I would say, I think

677
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,639
that's fair though, that was probably
fair at the point, but we had

678
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:36,039
to Marche Rosen behind him as well. I mean, I think I think

679
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:39,840
having Betune that high was was valid
though, coming off the versatility he displayed,

680
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,400
and we had no idea that injuries
were going to affect him like this.

681
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,719
Also, Bradley Beals number ten on
this list. I'm going to close

682
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,239
it because it's Yeah, that's bad. Can you stop sharing those results?

683
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360
It's gonna make me feel bad about
myself. Younger Bradley Beale, there's no

684
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:58,239
excuse for having him that low.
Who So, who was our actual number

685
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,400
three through this exercise? Our actual
number three for this exercise was Cody Zeller,

686
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,440
who was fourth for the fans,
who was third for me, and

687
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,760
who was actually second for you.
So if you want to take this overarching

688
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,519
explanation as the highest on Tody Zeller, feel free. I know that he's

689
00:45:16,559 --> 00:45:22,320
had some injury problems in recent years
just to plus minus Superhero and did a

690
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,639
lot of things for them defensively as
a as a rim rolling guy. Or

691
00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:30,159
a guy who's willing to set screens
and do a lot of the dirty work

692
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,400
as a as a defensive rebounder,
I feel like his offensive rebound has always

693
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,000
been inconsistent, but it's also had
more to do with the way that they

694
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,400
played. And you look at his
offensive rebounding over the last three seasons,

695
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:46,039
that's been by and large very good. He is just solid fundamentally, and

696
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:51,519
it makes sense to me that the
Hornets usually routinely have been so much better

697
00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:55,199
with him on the floor. And
if you just look over this past decade,

698
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:04,199
who is the more consistent contributor for
longer for these Hornets then Kemba Walker.

699
00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:06,719
And I don't think he can come
up with the name. Part of

700
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,239
that is because there are players who
just haven't been around as long as he

701
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,400
had. He is now his sixth
seventh season. He's in it to seventh,

702
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:15,599
all of which have been spent with
the Hornets, and so look,

703
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:20,360
that's just gonna bring up his thereness
factor. I do think that a lot

704
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,400
of people wish that, you know, his range might have come along a

705
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,320
little bit better, a little bit
more quickly. He's averaging over one three

706
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,639
point attempt per game. This year, but only hitting him twenty four percent

707
00:46:30,639 --> 00:46:32,639
of the time, And there's always
been that level of mystery, could he

708
00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:37,599
be a little bit more pick and
pop. They've sort of let him dabble

709
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,360
a little bit in those longer twos
before the past two seasons as they kind

710
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,480
of got those out of his game. There are disappointments offensively there, and

711
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,239
he's not going to give you a
ton but just a solid, fundamental guy.

712
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,760
He's gonna work really hard, set
your screens, hit the glass hard.

713
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,039
He's not going to get you killed, you know, as a rim

714
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:59,199
protector. Look, it's fine if
you want like as as your five guy,

715
00:46:59,639 --> 00:47:00,760
but he's not going to be the
anchor of a great defense. But

716
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,360
he's also not going to be this
huge liability if he's going to get at

717
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,079
least as of a couple of years
ago. You know when you watch him

718
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:10,639
play, when he gets pulled out
of the paint. So I feel like

719
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,639
he's probably one of the just the
careers. And maybe it's the contract a

720
00:47:14,679 --> 00:47:17,599
little bit, because the contract he's
on now I would say slightly overvalues him.

721
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:21,480
And he ended up being a four
year, fifty six million dollars extension

722
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,239
again signed in twenty and sixteen when
everyone's getting money, and so I could

723
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,800
see the argument against, yeah,
you don't want to pay Cody Zeller,

724
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,039
you know these latter two years,
especially a combined thirty million dollars, but

725
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:37,039
probably looking at his career during this
span, one of the NBA's more underrated

726
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:40,960
players. To me, that was
a hell of a monologue. I'm impressed.

727
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,639
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I have very little to add

728
00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:49,599
other than I'm sure that he is
a fan favorite in Utah just because of

729
00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:53,760
the screen assists. Yeah, he's
He's definitely one of those guys who just

730
00:47:53,920 --> 00:48:00,159
always seems to do everything that doesn't
show up in the box score, even

731
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,679
getting hurt, which is probably the
biggest negative. And yet he's still six

732
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:07,800
ten minutes played. He's still fourth
in games played over the last decade for

733
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,880
Charlotte. So, as you said, the theirness factor is definitely important here.

734
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,639
But yeah, I mean, just
a solid player who who might not

735
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:15,320
have become what we thought he was
going to early in his career. But

736
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,440
it's hard to complain about the career
trajectory he's had because he has been valuable

737
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:27,519
for them. He's more like a
guess somebody would be like middle class Steven

738
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:30,920
Adams with the hairline of a poor
man. Steven Adams hey as someone with

739
00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:37,639
a quickly receding headline due in large
part to having a fifteen month old child.

740
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:38,840
I resent that a little bit.
I mean, I don't have the

741
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,559
greatest hairline either, so I'm still
pretty jealous of it. I think you

742
00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:47,000
have more hair right now than I've
seen in a long time. But he

743
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:51,119
was that might be like the because
we look at Steven Adams as that star

744
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,239
who did a lot of things that
Cody Zeller does, but just at a

745
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,199
star level, and he like he
has those floaters in his game, has

746
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:00,920
always been a better passer than Cody
Zeller. But that might be someone.

747
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,239
I don't think there's styles aligned perfectly
because you can do pull ups on Steven

748
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,159
adams biceps and he plays like you
could do pull ups on Steven adams biceps.

749
00:49:08,159 --> 00:49:13,239
But that would be sort of the
richer power parallel that I would make

750
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,880
for Cody Zeller. Yeah, I
think that's a fair one. Who do

751
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,679
we have at number two? I
feel like, given the list so far,

752
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,239
this has to be a no brainer. Yeah, And I think it

753
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,360
is a no brainer. And I
actually have an important question for you about

754
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,639
Marvin Williams, who was a third
from the fan vote, second on mine

755
00:49:29,679 --> 00:49:31,519
and third on yours. No,
I do not think he had a better

756
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:36,760
career than Chris Paul. It's my
question is actually like kind of similar.

757
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,440
So he was the second pick in
the two thousand and five NBA draft,

758
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,599
which has been criticized a lot,
especially because Chris Paul and Darren Williams came

759
00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:49,519
off the board right after him,
especially brutal for the Hawks. But he's

760
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:54,000
now spent fifteen years in the NBA. He's been consistently impactful, maybe not

761
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:58,639
as a star, but as a
quality role player, and probably never more

762
00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:02,880
so than in Charlotte, maybe maybe
in Utah for a little bit. But

763
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,119
has he justified being a number two
pick at this point, just given the

764
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:14,159
longevity? I would say no,
because I don't think you use the number

765
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:20,119
two pick in any draft and hope
that and do it, but do so

766
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,159
under the notion that he'll never even
come close to being an All star.

767
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,320
Right, I guess, like we've
seen, number two is where the most

768
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:31,280
busts happen. Right, We've seen
that demonstrated throughout plenty of studies of successive

769
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,159
draft picks, and like, yeah, he was never a star. He

770
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:37,760
never even came close to sniffing an
All Star team, even in the Eastern

771
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:44,039
Conference, which he's played in for
what thirteen of his fifteen seasons. But

772
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:49,480
still like as as a bust,
he's He's played for fifteen years at a

773
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,719
solid level. He's still an important
part of a rotation, less so now

774
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,199
that he's in Milwaukee, but even
there, he's playing eighteen point five minutes

775
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,480
per games since he arrived. I
don't know, I'm not sure he's he's

776
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:04,599
totally justified it. But like if
you told me that I was going to

777
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:09,320
get fifteen years from a player at
a reasonable price point with reasonable production for

778
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:14,199
so long at number two, like
maybe you think about it just like from

779
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:19,639
a cost benefit analysis perspective, he's
definitely not a bust. Yeah, And

780
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,920
that's probably the best way to put
it. Like maybe it's semantics to say,

781
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:23,920
like he didn't justify it, but
he's not a bust, But I

782
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:30,400
think that's accurate. I would like
to see though, had he like played

783
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,400
more five not even just earlier,
but in general, it always seemed like

784
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,800
Charlotte was a little bit reluctant to
go to that with the exception of probably

785
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,239
the past two seasons, and even
that he was mostly a four. He

786
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,519
could still defend force two though.
And that's the other thing. He's like

787
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:49,159
an understated floor spacing grim protector.
That's like the best way to really put

788
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,039
him. And he was one we
were I believe he was a free agent

789
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,039
in twenty sixteen as well, who
we were also super high on. So

790
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:59,960
and I think he's he's kind of
validated that just because the like he's,

791
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:02,119
like you described them, the floor
spacing, rim protecting, switchable defender.

792
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:07,679
It's it's what Atlanta wanted, and
he didn't really become that. I don't

793
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,559
think he he embraced the spaciness of
his game until he left the Hawks.

794
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:16,960
But imagine imagine what he could have
done on those Mike budenholtzer Halt Hawks.

795
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:21,800
Imagine what he could have could have
been done on the Mike Budenholzler Bucks.

796
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,119
I know he's deechinitely on them right
now, but yeah, that's just something

797
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:27,400
to think about. I'm actually surprised. I thought, I know, we

798
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,119
always overrate buy out candidates and their
impact. He was someone I thought who

799
00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:32,760
could wasn't, of course, but
he was. He was someone I thought

800
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,280
who could actually be like that,
that mid season swing piece still just really

801
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,400
good. And that's an interesting discussion
to have if is he did he validate

802
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,480
his number two status? I would
say he's closer to Yes than Bust by

803
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:46,719
a pretty clear margin. That might
be the best way to put it.

804
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,639
Yeah, it seems it's seemed weird
at number two in my own rankings is

805
00:52:50,679 --> 00:52:52,159
where he was, and it seemed
kind of weird to put a guy there

806
00:52:52,159 --> 00:52:55,559
who spent five and a half years
in Charlotte and averaged single digit points.

807
00:52:55,679 --> 00:53:00,239
I mean his now that he's on
Milwaukee's roster, like his final number from

808
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,639
Charlotte are nine point seven points,
five point three rebounds, one point three

809
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:06,840
assists, zero point eight steals,
zero point seven blocks per game. Shot

810
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:08,960
forty three point seven percent from the
field, thirty seven point eight percent from

811
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,039
three, eighty one point nine percent
from the free throw line. None of

812
00:53:13,079 --> 00:53:15,559
those are solid or none of those
are great. They're all solid. And

813
00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:19,960
that's that's who he was to me, and Charlotte was just that guy who

814
00:53:20,039 --> 00:53:23,239
was just going to get stuff done, didn't didn't need to run plays for

815
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:30,239
him, but he very consistently aided
them. Who's number one? Come on,

816
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,920
it's Kemba Walker. Yeah. No, ke Kemba was number one for

817
00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:38,599
composite, for the fans, for
me, for Dan. He only was

818
00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:44,639
not number one on the one ballot
that had Michael kid Gilchrist in first place,

819
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,159
but he was number two there and
interestingly, like the rest of that

820
00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:52,480
ballot seemed pretty solid. Al Jefferson
at three, Cody Zeller at four,

821
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,199
Marvin Williams at five. They did
have PJ. Washington and Devonte Graham and

822
00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:00,679
in the top ten, which I
think makes you pretty happy, aside from

823
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:05,960
the non Kemba in the top spot. But come on, like, who

824
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,039
else was it going to be here? There are a bullet point this because

825
00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:12,920
these are the things that I respected
moments about Kemba Walker. He enters the

826
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,840
NBA as a bucket getter, and
that's what he became to an extent.

827
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:21,679
But if you look at the first
four seasons of his career, he was

828
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,719
inefficient and it wasn't just it was
around the rim and everything, and then

829
00:54:24,039 --> 00:54:28,599
he you know, by the time
twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen rolls around,

830
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,960
he's not just a good three point
shooter. He's a good three point shooter

831
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:36,719
on super high volume, and that's
something I always respected because that held and

832
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,280
I feel like you very rarely see
that type of jump sustained when a players

833
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:45,480
already gone through four seasons. And
this was a similar to what happened with

834
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,440
Steph Curry's extension when Kemba Walker signed
his. I think there was more of

835
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:52,360
the I don't want to say angered
reaction, but there was more of a

836
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,519
question, oh, is is he
actually worth this? If you, if

837
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:58,320
you at least looked at points per
game, you probably would say, oh,

838
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,440
that's fine. He turned in to
one of the best bargains in the

839
00:55:01,599 --> 00:55:05,559
NBA during that span, and there
was a point where he was probably the

840
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:10,880
best bargain, if only because Stephen
Curry's contract ended sooner. So that's just

841
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,320
absurd. Another thing, he has
always been better on defense than people give

842
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,559
him credit for. Not good,
but when you look at his size,

843
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,960
I would say six foot on a
good day, the effort he has put

844
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:30,519
into fighting over screens being in the
right positions, I feel like that's gone

845
00:55:30,639 --> 00:55:34,039
overlooked, and given the burden that
he's carried on offense, it did feel

846
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:37,159
like he slipped a little bit last
year, his final season in Charlotte,

847
00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:39,199
but when you look at the load
that he's carried for most of his time

848
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:45,239
in Charlotte, I always feel like
the defensive energy and effort he gave went

849
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,760
underappreciated. And finally he's clearly one
of the NBA's best leaders. And it

850
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,519
might be in a more sort of
deferential fashion because it doesn't seem like he's

851
00:55:54,559 --> 00:55:59,440
the most outspoken. But you hear
these stories about how last year when I

852
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,679
think the I think was probably on
the wall for him, he's still talking

853
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,519
and mentoring the young guys. They
had a text message group. This is

854
00:56:05,519 --> 00:56:07,679
I think it was per Rick Bonnoll
of the Charlotte Observer called Kemba and the

855
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,400
Avengers, and it was just him
and the kids in a group chat.

856
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,280
That's just that's fucking fantastic. And
you're seeing the effects that he has on

857
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,079
Boston. Now that's not part of
this, but he comes in and he

858
00:56:19,119 --> 00:56:22,639
doesn't have a problem. Maybe it's
in part because he spent so long being

859
00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:27,320
all everything in Charlotte, but he
doesn't have a problem being the number two

860
00:56:27,639 --> 00:56:31,320
to Jason Tatum. He doesn't never
a problem deferring to Jaylen Brown on points

861
00:56:31,559 --> 00:56:36,480
as well. So there are just
so many things that I appreciate Kemba Walker,

862
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:38,719
the improvement, the leadership, and
then just the effort that he's given

863
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,360
on defense relative to I think his
reputation. I'm not saying that Kemba Walker

864
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,320
is this really good defender, but
those are things that really stand out to

865
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,960
me when you look at his career. And then of course number four,

866
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,400
his arness right right and to the
bareness point, you know, twenty thousand,

867
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,320
six hundred and seven minutes in Charlotte's
second places Marvin Williams at eleven thousand,

868
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,920
six hundred teen, Like that alone
probably pushes him into the number one

869
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,639
spot. And I'm not gonna lie, like Kemba is one of my all

870
00:57:06,679 --> 00:57:10,239
time favorite players. I totally fell
in love with his game during I think

871
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,719
it was the twenty eleven Big East
Tournament, the one where he won like

872
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,599
six games in six days, made
the ridiculous step back jumper over Stephen McGee

873
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:22,400
from Pittsburgh. Like it was it
was hard not to love him. Then.

874
00:57:22,519 --> 00:57:25,400
I was all over him coming into
the draft, and it's been fun

875
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,480
to like watch that love be validated
over the years, and it's it's almost

876
00:57:30,559 --> 00:57:34,920
unfathomable a guy who was an inefficient
jump shooter, like the shot we associate

877
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,840
most with him now is like coming
around a screen and immediately pulling up for

878
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,000
a three. It's off the dribble
threes too, it's the it's the off

879
00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:45,199
the dribble threes, and it's like
it's him, It's Damian Lillard, it's

880
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:50,000
James Harden. The guys who will
curl around that screen, stop and jump

881
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,079
and take that contact right away and
still make the shot like those are the

882
00:57:53,079 --> 00:57:57,679
three guys that I associate that with
with that shot more than anyone else.

883
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,440
And for him to get to that
point after being such a limited shooter throughout

884
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:06,159
his rookie contract is amazing. Like
it was his fourth season in the NBA

885
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,639
where he shot thirty point four percent
on threes, he shot thirty eight point

886
00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:14,320
five percent from the field, and
now he's a remarkably efficient off the dribble

887
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:19,559
score. It's I think it's it's
one of the biggest testaments to hard work

888
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:23,079
from a star we've seen within recent
NBA history and an offense unto himself the

889
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:28,880
Hornets. I don't like comparing specific
lineups to just teams in general. But

890
00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:32,039
the Hornets offensive rating was top shelf
in the NBA last year with Kima Walker

891
00:58:32,039 --> 00:58:34,960
on the floor. And I'm using
last year because that team, if you

892
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,960
look at his supporting cast, just
didn't have it. So he can be

893
00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:42,440
that offense unto himself and that's huge. And he also has you mentioned this

894
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,320
with that shot. I remember the
shot while he was at Yukon as well.

895
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,239
And this is coming from someone who
wasn't really interested in college basketball ever.

896
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,280
I do my draft cramming, you
know, a couple of months before

897
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,719
the draft. I remember that shot, and it also just feels like the

898
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,320
stats do not back this up.
But when it's crunched time, that mid

899
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,840
range pull up, it just still
feels like it's money, especially when he's

900
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,519
playing the Knicks. For some reason, as someone who thought that Marcus Smart's

901
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:08,079
clutch shooting percentages were very high,
I would advise you to not look that

902
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:10,199
up. I don't know what it
is, but I just I don't want

903
00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:14,119
you to be as disappointed as I
was, just in case. I tend

904
00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:16,239
not to wait too much into crunch
time performances because I don't really either.

905
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,719
There's so much luck in there,
which I don't want to look his thought

906
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,280
stats for it, but he's the
one where it's like by reputation or someone

907
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,440
who has the clutch geen, Like
he's just one of those guys. I've

908
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,719
always thought of the clutch geen more
as maintaining performance than elevating performance. Yeah,

909
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:37,880
so I can see that. Who
who else received votes? This is

910
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:43,280
one of it's a long list and
it gets ugly, but let's run through

911
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,320
him. So in the fan vote, we had tied for eleventh, where

912
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:51,440
Dwight Howard and Bismack bionbo. I
guess, actually, before before we do

913
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,559
this, if we want to backtrack, because I actually did have somebody on

914
00:59:54,599 --> 00:59:58,320
my list who wasn't in the top
ten, and I am curious for your

915
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,519
thoughts about them before get to the
fans honorable mentions, And that was Josh

916
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:05,800
McRoberts, who I put in my
tent spot kind of because of the bairness,

917
01:00:06,039 --> 01:00:08,400
also because I think like his contributions
were just a little bit underrated while

918
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,559
he was in Charlotte. It was
tough to to have him there over Devonte

919
01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:16,480
Graham and and over Gerald Wallace.
But I don't think I regret it.

920
01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:21,960
Maybe just the time that he played
where was the floor spacing big man wasn't

921
01:00:22,719 --> 01:00:27,039
like what now where? It's not
that they're not an asset, but if

922
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:30,039
you were Josh mcrobertson today's NBA,
it's just like, well, show me

923
01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:32,280
something else, like you need to
operate off the dribble or switch a ton

924
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,159
defensively. But when you look at
what the time he was in Charlotte,

925
01:00:36,239 --> 01:00:39,880
you know, the twenty twenty thirteen, perhaps that's part of it. I

926
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,880
mean, he played well enough in
twenty thirteen twenty fourteen for the Miami Heat

927
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:45,639
to overpay him in free agency,
right, and they were better with him

928
01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:49,360
on the court, which which definitely
matters too, especially for the guys who

929
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:52,480
who are there for their bairness.
Just not I don't know, I guess

930
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,920
because he only spent you know,
a partial season and then a full year

931
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,280
there just didn't really do it for
me. He did the full season that

932
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:01,880
he spent there. He did average
over thirty minutes per game, though,

933
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,679
so it's not like you're dealing with
a crazy small sample. And what people

934
01:01:06,719 --> 01:01:10,920
probably don't really remember is that year
he ever's over four assist per game.

935
01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:15,039
So he was definitely a better offensive
player than he's remembered for. He's remembered

936
01:01:15,039 --> 01:01:19,480
for his offense, but he's actually
better when people remember him for. You

937
01:01:19,519 --> 01:01:22,559
weren't going to get me to take
off JARYD. Wallace or DeVante Graham.

938
01:01:22,599 --> 01:01:27,039
And that's which is totally fair.
If anything, I probably could have thought

939
01:01:27,039 --> 01:01:30,519
about bumping MKG, but that would
have been too cruel. Wow wow,

940
01:01:30,599 --> 01:01:34,280
Okay, but yeah, I wanted
I wanted Josh McRoberts to get a little

941
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,360
love before we went through all these
honorable mentions, which we can do now.

942
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:42,559
So Ted tied for eleventh. We
had Dwight Howard and Bismack Biondo and

943
01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:45,079
feel free to interrupt and say something
about any why is Dwight Howard there?

944
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,599
His one season was pretty good.
Yeah, but why is he ahead of

945
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:52,559
both PJ. Washington and Miles Bridges
should be ahead of Dwight Howard. I

946
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,880
don't disagree with you. That is
my take. That is gospel. That

947
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:00,519
is Dwight Howard did actually get a
second place vote, which it was surprising.

948
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:04,440
It's good to know that Dwight Howard
participated in this exercise. Then yeah,

949
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,280
thank you, thank you, Dwight. I appreciate the humility of not

950
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,119
putting yourself first. Was Kemba at
least first in that in that ballot.

951
01:02:10,159 --> 01:02:13,880
We probably have no idea right now, well we do, just because the

952
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:19,079
only other one had had MKG at
number one. So the Dwight Howard ballot,

953
01:02:19,679 --> 01:02:22,840
Oh, I forgot about that one. No, So this was one

954
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,840
that I actually had to modify a
little bit because they had They had Kemba

955
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,599
Walker first, Dwight Howard, second, Dwight Howard, third, Dwight Howard,

956
01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:32,239
fourth, Dwight Howard, fifth,
Dwight Howard, sixth, all the

957
01:02:32,239 --> 01:02:36,760
way through tenth. So I just
removed the third through tenth because we are

958
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,960
limited one appearance for player. It
had to be just enough humility to put

959
01:02:40,039 --> 01:02:44,440
Kemba Walker in there, but then
nobody else. But yeah, like,

960
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:50,320
if if I had included all of
those votes, he would have risen up

961
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:55,199
to ninth place. So we we
dodged a bullet there. Please continue.

962
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,559
Yeah. So so moving on beyond
White, Howard and Bismack Beyonmbo tied at

963
01:03:00,599 --> 01:03:06,800
eleventh, we have DJ Augustine at
thirteenth. We have Jeremy Lynn at fourteenth,

964
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,920
we have Stephen Jackson. At fifteenth. We had Boris Diaw At sixteenth,

965
01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:16,559
we had Tony Parker. At seventeenth. We had Josh McRoberts at eighteenth,

966
01:03:16,639 --> 01:03:21,760
which is sad because I think he
deserved to be higher. We had

967
01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:27,119
Frank Kaminski at nineteenth, we had
a Mecca Oka four. At twentieth,

968
01:03:28,119 --> 01:03:34,360
we had Terry Rosier, Ramon sessions
Byron Mullins and Lance Stevenson grouped together in

969
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:39,679
a tie for twenty first. At
twenty fifth, we had a three way

970
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:45,599
tie between Ben Gordon, PJ.
Washington, and the one and only Sagana

971
01:03:45,679 --> 01:03:50,039
jop Nice proud of you, thank
you. I had to work on that

972
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:53,880
pronunciation since it's been a while since
we since we heard his name. At

973
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:58,719
twenty eighth, we had a two
way tie between DJ White and Marco Belinelli,

974
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,559
who I actually thought was gonna show
up a little higher since he did

975
01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:03,559
have like one pretty good season in
Charlotte, which is more than we can

976
01:04:03,599 --> 01:04:09,719
say about some of these other guys
who we've already named. At thirtieth we

977
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,519
had Derek Brown. Thirty first is
a three way tie between Corey mcgetty,

978
01:04:13,559 --> 01:04:16,880
Jeff Adrian, and Miles Bridges.
And at thirty fourth we have a three

979
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:23,239
way tie between Moe Williams, Malik
Monk, and Gary Neal. Wow,

980
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,440
I'm surprised Remote Sessions didn't get a
little bit more love. Maybe that's just

981
01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:30,599
like two anecdotally. Maybe I'm overrating
him there. Then did any of the

982
01:04:30,639 --> 01:04:34,079
Martin brothers, Caleber, Cody were
they on there? Either of the Martin

983
01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:38,199
brothers received any votes? I feel
like Cody should have been on there,

984
01:04:38,239 --> 01:04:42,280
but whatever, he could have been, but it's it's hard when it's a

985
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,239
rookie during abbreviated season. Did Jeremy
Line get any love? Jeremy Lynde did

986
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:51,480
get some love. He was a
tie for fourteenth. He appeared on on

987
01:04:54,039 --> 01:04:57,719
a little under a quarter of the
ballots that were submitted, all right,

988
01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:02,760
but never higher than a than fifth
place. He had his one year.

989
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,840
He only spent one year in Sharrow. That definitely has to be part of

990
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,679
it. His one year was pretty
good though. Yeah, he was on

991
01:05:06,719 --> 01:05:11,880
the twenty fifteen twenty sixteen team.
I'm actually surprised that he didn't get that.

992
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,679
I know he didn't shoot great from
three that year, but you know,

993
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,760
him and Kema Walker worked offensively anyway
together, right, And so that

994
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:24,400
I'm a little bit surprised that he
wasn't closer to ten. Yeah, I

995
01:05:24,639 --> 01:05:27,559
think DJ Augustine is the big one
for me, where he was just like

996
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:30,320
a steady offensive point guard, naming
all these second string point guards right right

997
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,239
right, It's it's dire straits here
in the in the Charlotte Hornet's podcast.

998
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,519
Do you have anything else to add
to this? Let's move on to Chicago.

999
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:44,480
Yes, that'll be dropping shortly.
They should be. They're gonna be

1000
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,840
tougher, but they'll be more upbeat
than this. I'm I have not submitted

1001
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,400
my ballot for them, even though
our our voting is open for Chicago,

1002
01:05:50,519 --> 01:05:55,400
and I'm I'm struggling with the order
of my top three. Yeah, so

1003
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,719
the Chicago voting is open. Everybody
go to at NBA Underscore Math. Thank

1004
01:05:59,719 --> 01:06:02,320
you all for listening to this.
We've actually gotten some feedback, at least

1005
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,559
I have in the DMS that you
guys are enjoying these podcasts. So please

1006
01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:11,239
tell tell your friends, acquaintances,
family members, everybody about it. We've

1007
01:06:11,239 --> 01:06:14,559
had some fun doing them. And
Chicago bills ohs, we'll be up next.

1008
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:17,639
Until then, I leave everybody with
a shout out too. This is

1009
01:06:17,639 --> 01:06:20,440
a tough one. I feel like
I'm gonna go with Staghana Job. Shout

1010
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out to him, Sugar Ray,
Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin

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Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends
whose four way rivalry define one of the

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greatest errors in boxing history, relive
their decade of dominance in the new Showtime

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Sports documentary The Kings, a four
parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth,

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only on Showtime