We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit FDRLST. Make
sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the premium
version of our website as well. I'm very excited about today's guests. We
are joined by Luke Moon, who is the executive director over at the Felos
Project. Luke, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me so.
I actually asked Luke to come on the show after watching this fascinating kind
of a rebuttal video on the Felos Project's YouTube page to the interview that Tucker
Carlson did with Montha. Isaac Who Luke, I'm just going to guess,
and I'm guessing you were familiar with him before Tucker Adham on the show.
Oh yeah, he's like, you know, a friend of me. I
was going to say, because we were just talking about how you've had extensive
experience in this obviously in the space you work for Pelos, which is dedicated
to the space, but you have a long history of you know, actually
you've been to Bethlehem, you've been to Palestinian territory, You've obviously been to
Israel many times. But Tucker did an interview that was framed as in not
an investigation, but a conversation about Israel's treatment of Christians. And I really
liked the way that you approached this subject, Luke, because you said,
listen, I've watched Tucker with my wife. You know, I've I loved
to Sean Fox. This interview was wrong for reasons X Y and Z.
And I think that's important because I don't begrudge Tucker for having this curiosity about
the fate of Christians in the Middle East, about the fate of Christians in
Bethlehem, frankly, but I thought you brought some really helpful nuance to the
discussion. So could you tell us just a little bit about your reaction,
because this is your video is two hours long, and I commit it to
everyone. It's fantastic. But just if you had to answer the question basically
that Tucker post to a month there Isaac, which was you know, how
does Israel treat Christians? How would you respond? Right, Well, Israel
treats Christians actually pretty well. I mean, they don't really care that much.
I mean, there's just not that many of them. They don't matter.
I mean, and you could ask, well, you know, how
does America treat the Bahai right, Like you'd probably get a similar response,
right because like the behind, you know, they have so much influence on
America, right, maybe, but not really. I mean it's like there's
there just aren't that many Christians in Israel. There's listen, there's and it's
obviously mostly Jews, and then there's twenty percent of Israel's era, but most
of those eras are Muslim, and so the Christians just don't they don't matter
in any kind of they there's not enough of them to really matter. And
how how many would you estimate Christians are in Israel? Fifty sixty thousand,
right, and in Bethlehem it's about well, it's so small Bethlehem, you're
talking. I mean, the real estimate is eleven thousand. I doubt it's
even that they like I would I would cut that in half, maybe even
further. There's it's basically after COVID, the Christians left. It's just not
it's it's there's discrimination. There is hard to get a job, if it's
it's very clannish, like the Arab culture is very clannish, you know.
And so if you don't, your cousin's not part of the thing. And
like you know, your cousin gets you the job, like that's how life
happens. So if you don't, if you're not part of one of those
big families, you're going to have a hard time. And actually that's really
interesting because one of the things that Monther Isaac claims, I don't even remember
if you got to this in the Tucker interview, is that Christians have fled
Bethlehem because of Israel, because Bethlehem is sort of and you can explain this
by than I can contested area in the West Bank where Israel does some sort
of military operations, anti terrorist and military operations. But that's his that's his
sort of contention, right and we so we we had heard that for years,
so several years ago, actually this is in twenty twenty, I think
it came out. The survey actually came out in twenty one, but we
did we wanted to get at this, like what what is motivating Christians to
leave? And so we actually did surveys because what you'd fined is is that
I would take you know, you'd go in a public venue and a Christian
will if you ask Christian, ay, you know, how are you treated
by the Muslims? How's it going on? They're like, Oh, we're
just the best of friends. We're just having to like guys, it's amazing.
I mean, we like skip through the fields together. Really, it's
like when we walk down the street, rainbows follow us. I mean that's
the picture that they give you. But then you get them alone, especially
if you get a beer in them, man, they will like like they're
like, wow, it's just terrible. It's actually quite terrible. It's really
hard. It's really hard, and so we wanted to get at that,
and so we put a survey together. We hired the premiere surveyor of Palestinian
life, and the survey came back this is the primary reason people are leaving
is economic and the secondary reason is education. And mind you, both of
those are related to the conflict and the challenges facing the Palestinians, particularly in
the Palestinian territories. But it wasn't like it wasn't the primary driver. It
was just life was hard and it's like the like you know, why do
I got to stick around? This is not worth it. It's not worth
the hassle, it's not worth the discrimination the people who are against us.
This is not it's not great. And you know it's you know, my
cousin, he lives in Miami. Miami is great. Right, I can
go with the beach in Miami. I can go to the beach in Bethlehem,
right, and so they go. You know, it's it is,
it's a. It's a there's a lot of Palestinian Christians, a lot of
Palestinians just leaving because life's hard. And that's what people do with LiF's heart.
And unless you have And the thing is, here's here's a distinction I
think between Christians and Muslims and Jews is that Muslims and Jews are landed people,
meaning like they're very committed to the like the land matters in a very
deep way differently than it matters to Christians, where like the earth is the
lords and everywhere in it, and so it's like we're not that connected.
But Muslims they pray in a direction right right the temple for example, they
do well. The Muslims don't pray it towards the Temple the Jews right,
the Jews do right, and that is important exactly. And then the Jewish
prayer, like you know, the orthodoxtor praying three times a day. They're
praying particularly, they named Jerusalem in their prayers every like every time they pray,
they named Jerusalem, And so that matters, obviously if your whole orientation
of your faith is towards a land, and Christians were not, like you
know, I mean, maybe there are Christians out there praying towards Roman or
something or like, you know, with whatever the you know, I guess
the Baptist maybe they prayed to Nashville. But kidding Baptists, that's pretty good.
But other than that, like I just don't, I don't know,
Like the Christians were just not a land that people really aren't and so,
you know, it's one of the reasons all across the region the Christians are
just leaving. You know, in nineteen fifty in Iraq there was about five
million Christians. Today there's one hundred and twenty five thousand. And that was
part of Tucker's critique, is like, oh, it's because of America,
because of our war and all that sort of stuff, well kind of,
but it was also because just like Islam's not nice to Christians. Yeah,
all right, so there's that, yeah right, but it also matters that
you're like the Christians, just like the land is not that important. You
know. That's interesting because it gets at this fundamental I think argument coming from
Tucker, which is that the United States has been disproportionately disinterested in the fate
of Christians throughout the Middle East. That sort of US imperialism or US adventurism,
I'll put it that way, actually kind of sacrifices Christians, Christian life,
Christian culture in the Middle East, ancient Christian culture that was a beautiful
church that was was hit early in the post October seventh conflict, just a
verial I think it is like more than a thousand. It was more than
a thousand. The virus is that. Yeah, it's but well it wasn't
it wasn't hit. The building next to it was hit fell on it because
it was That's an important distinction. It wasn't targeted. It was unfortunate,
I mean, but the you know, it was the building next to it
was being used to launch rockets out of and Tucker's sort of a stand in
here for because I think again I don't begrudge him for asking some of these
questions, is stand in for a proxy for a larger kind of curiosity or
backlash that's that's mounting on the right, and the the argument is that again,
you know, Islam not friendly to Christians, but the Israel and the
United States should also be more concerned about Christians than it has shown. That's
probably a chitrible description of the argument. How do you address love that?
I would love that, like I swear if Christians care like heck, if
I could get Christians, not even Americans, if I could get Christians that
care about Christians, right, I mean, because you've been doing this is
what life's work. I have been doing this so long. I can raise
more money in like two days, then I've probably raised in fifteen years for
Christian persecution, like like for something else. Like It's just I have not
been able to find the secret sauce to get Christians to care about other Christians.
I mean, I went to a conference, you know, it was
was a Christian justice conference back in now twenty sixteen or some long time ago.
And afterwards, you know, I think Hillsong played and they were raising
money to help refugees were who were fleeing Isis basically, and they were going
to help a refugee camp. Well here's the problem. There are no Christian
refugee camps anywhere in the world. They were like, there's Sunni Muslim camps,
and there is Shia Muslim camps, and there's Yazidi camps, but there
are no Christian camps. I mean, it's not just America. America doesn't
care about Christians anywhere. I mean over the weekend on on Saturday, eleven
Nigerians were butchered in their church and they was set on fire. Yes,
yeah, like I can't get Christians to care about that. Australia yesterday,
Australia, can you can you tell us a little bit about what happened.
Yeah, there was a the archbishop. He's got a great name of mar
Mai this anyways, he was actually he had gone to Gaza and he had
visited the Christians in Gaza and was coming back to Australia. Like tell the
dude was no Zionists, you know, and he's this guy comes up and
like as he's preaching, it stabs him in the head. Like in the
neck and you know, obviously the people, you know, grab the the
attacker and the bishop was actually praying for him as the bishop himself was bleeding
waiting for the for the ambulance to get there. But that's that's just yesterday.
I mean, like this stuff is happening all the time, all of
the world, and I can't get Christians to care. I haven't. Like,
I'm under no illusion America is going to care about We never have,
Like I can't think of a single instance where we have have cared. I
mean, we have a we had a special visa during the Balkan War for
Muslims fleeing who needed a place to go because of like they were, you
know, in danger, you know, in some in one of those countries,
forgo Slavia, and we we opened the door for I think Bosnian Muslims
like a special category. We had a special visa for that. During Isis,
we tried to get a special visa for Christians who were fleeing Isis who
were being targeted like gun to the head, you know, convert or die,
that kind of thing. And I mean there was I met a woman,
her and her husband took two separate cars with two like one of them
each took a kid in hopes that they would like maybe get together at the
very end as they were fleeing Isis and the husband and the kid that was
with the husband. They didn't make it. That's that's and the United States
didn't care. He didn't care at all. So, like you know,
Tucker, I would love it. You know, if you want to lend
your voice, anybody else wants to lend their voice to help me make the
case for Christian persecution around the world, I'm all game. I mean,
there's a verse in the New Testament where Saint Paul says, do good to
all men, but first the household of faith, And I mean I used
that verse old. I got an argument with the former pastor of mine one
time, and he's like, well, you know, we just can't let
Christianity become tribal. You know, the Jews are standing for the Jews,
and the Muslims are standing for the Muslims. But Christians we just can't stand.
We just can't stand just for Christians because then we're just like them and
we're not like you know, ecumenical or whatever the right right, and no,
Paul says, first, like of course, like you got to start
somewhere. How about you know we're welcoming all these people into the faith.
Hey, come, become a brother and sister in Christ and then but hey,
if you do, just know that you know we're not going to help
you if you get in trouble though, sorry about that. You know we
have brothers and sister but we leave buy. This is Molly Hemingway of the
Federalist Join me, my husband, Mark of Real Clear Investigations, twelve time
All American Swimmer, Riley Gaines, Aaron Wren of The American Conservative, and
others for the twenty twenty four Making the Case Conference Friday July twelfth and Saturday
July thirteenth at Concordia University, Chicago. Learn more at Issues etc. Dot
org. Making the Case July twelfth and thirteenth in Chicago, Issues etc.
Dot Org. There's so much to go off with it, and actually one
of the places that I want to talk about I was thinking, in the
context of this current debate about immigration, I'm so glad you brought this up.
The footage of Chinese migrants coming out across the border right now. Some
of them are saying, I don't know if their asylum claims are accurate.
But some of them are saying they're Christians that are fleeing persecution from China,
and what we're doing is just encouraging everyone to kind of come in and get
lost in this asylum system instead of saying here's a special route for persecuted Christians
or even persecuted Muslims, which we're not doing. But that I guess calls
to mind what you were talking about with the Yazidis. And there are probably
other Christian populations throughout the recent wars in the Middle East that have been decimated,
like the CDs that I don't even know about even as a journalist that
I don't even know about, and a Christian journalist that I don't even know
about. Can you tell us, can you give us some background on what
happened over the course of the last couple of decades to Christian populations like the
Eazid's in the Middle East. Well, these are not Christians, but they're
like, they're like a bad Muslim. They have so explaining that. Yeah,
they're like, so it's going to like an offshoot. Yeah, yeah,
it's an offshoot. Man, put me on the spot here only it's
been a long time as I looked at with the like basically they are they're
seen by other Muslims as being apostate. I mean that, like they don't
they didn't you know, they created some you know, they have their own
special prophet. Yeah, the prophet Muhammad's their guy, but they got this
other guy too. Like it's kind of one of those types of things,
a bit like the Alla Whites have a similar there, that's the Assad family.
They're part of that. Like it's some of these kind of they're they're
they're kind of weird Muslims, right, they have their own special belief in
As a result, they had a special mountain in Iraq that you know,
they were in a particular area in northern Iraq, and when Isis came,
they targeted them. They targeted the Christians and they really like carried off thousands
of easy to girls to be Muslim slaves and the rest of the region and
a lot of them have never been seen again. And but you know,
the United States actually recognized what happened to the diseases as a genocide, but
when we asked them to recognize Christians, the attacks of the decimation of the
Christian community. The State Department was like, no, no, we're not
going to do that. So we actually sued them. We actually we were
part of the coalition of organizations that sued the State Department to recognize the Christians
as being victims of genocide under Isis because it was like, no, well
the Christians they don't count right. It's like there really is a animus towards
Christianity in most institutions, it seems, the government institutions, and they just
don't have any power anywhere. But you know, I know that the challenge
is is that there isn't I mean, I'll be all for you know,
having some special designations, having you know, a special way for Christians to
come in. But the other problem is that, you know, when when
Trump came into to office in twenty seventeen, one of the first things he
did was he issued that executive order saying that we're going to limit like immigration
from from these Muslim countries in particular that we're basically failed states and unable to
help us evaluate who was coming in. And he said in that executive order,
with the exception of religious minorities, okay, and the there was a
bunch of Christians. A bunch of Christian organizations that took a swipe at that,
like they had to get there, you know, the their dig into
Trump, right, and so they took a full page ad in the Washington
Post saying, you know, it's terrible, this is you know, we
we you know, we're called as Christians to love our neighbor, and you
know, this is a terrible thing. And I'm like, Trump literally singled
out Christians as being able to be an exception here. How about we focus
on helping Christians come And they're like you no, no, no, we
can't do that. And it it to this day like I have, I
have. It just killed my calleries for most of the people involved in the
uh you know, the refugee resettlement cases on the Christian side, because they
were I just watched over and over again how they just had no regard for
what was happening to Christians in the region. And it's it's not gotten any
better. And the problem is, like you do have this is happening just
recently in Gaza, people were saying there was a bunch of reports early on,
within the first month and a half or so, you know, where
people were saying that they had seen visitations of Jesus and they were getting dreams
and there was you knowundreds of Gosins were coming to faith. And I asked
the past and the pastor about that. I said, oh, you know,
we hear that. You know, all these Gosins are coming to faith.
And he goes, yeah, yeah, I don't believe that they're just
trying to get out. They're just trying to they like they they know that
they can say Christian and we you know, we had a dream of Jesus
and then like they get fast tracked to America or something like that. He
said, does that happen? I'm assuming because saying pastor by knows better than
me. I mean, I do believe that people do see visions of Jesus
and they get saved, oh of course, but that they would get relocated
through the nonprofits or something. It would it would probably help out their cause
a bit, if you know, someone like vouched for them and some nonprofit
would help pay for the leader, okay or whatever. And this and this
pastor was like the people he knows who are real who became real followers of
Jesus, there be they're big concern. They don't want to leave. They
want to stay and evangelize, And I'm like, okay, that's a big
difference, right, But this is hard over there? How do you get
so like this is this is such a basic and maybe seemingly silly question,
but how do you sort fact from fiction on this issue? Because you live
in the States, you've been there many many times, But for the layman,
even again, like even in media, it's very very hard, especially
within you know, twenty four hour periods, to understand exactly what happened in
various situations because there's so much propaganda and disinformation willfully and unwillfully. How do
you just personally follow this and feel confident in the facts? Yeah, well
at this point because I've been in it so long that I kind of just
you know, kind of know and you know people, and I know people.
But early on my rule was I don't believe any of y'all, like
you know, like I'm I just distrust. It's a high bar of distrust.
Like you really have to convince me, you know. I remember once
one one time a friend sent me a picture of there was a there was
a group coming out a group of Christians coming out of Saint George's church,
I think somewhere, and I don't know. It was from Allar Jerusalem or
some East Rusalem somewhere, and there was rocks being thrown at down and somebody
sent me the YouTube saying, hey, like the Christians are under attack,
you know, by the Muslims, and that a Christian was stabbed. And
so I started reaching out to my friends on the ground saying, like,
what happened, And the story of what happened was like, you know,
it was it was a Christian who was stabbed. No, it was a
Muslim who was stabbed. No, it was that, you know, and
he was stabbed and died. And then the other one was, no,
he's stabbed and he's in the hospital, and it's like or they weren't stabbed,
And like there was so many There was no less than five or six
different stories about what happened. And there was a video, there was lily
a video of the like people hiding from the rocky What found that The story
was is that there was a group of eighteen year old dudes sitting on a
railing Muslim dudes and the Christian girls walked by and they got ket call the
Muslim the Christian dudes started picked the fight with the Muslim dudes and one of
them got stabbed. So it was totally like, yeah, it was Christian,
but it was really just a bunch of eighteen year old dudes picking a
fight over girls. Like that's that's the actual story. That is such an
interesting example, Like it's yeah, it's like it literally made it to my
inbox right like the the and I was ready to go, and I was
ready to throw down the rocks, you know, given chance, I couldn't
make one, you know, And and it turned out Yeah, no,
it's just dudes, just dud, dud. That is a really good example
though, because I'm sure similar things like that happened frequently as launched all the
time, all the time. Yeah, So, like I was in one
of those like uh, you know, Friday afternoon skirmishes, if you will,
Like on Friday in Bethlehem, I was in actually it's the same one
of those conferences where I was hanging out with month Isaac who was interviewed by
by Tucker uh. And I was at this hotel that was right by the
wall where refugee kids would come out on Friday afternoon after the mosque let out.
They would have the kafias wrapped around their faces and their sling shots in
hand, and they would just start rocking knocking the the the door of the
IDF guys, and pretty soon that door would open and I would come the
IDF guys and this you know, next thing to your guys and flash bang
and all that sort of stuff, And after about two hours, everybody's like,
all right, see you next week. I mean literally, that's exactly
how it felt. It was an international incident, but it was basically what
you're gonna do on Friday, Oh you know, you know I want to
go, you know, throw the rocks at the Jews or throw throw smoke
bombs at the past India. I mean like that's and it and that like
happened every Friday. It was like a normal just it almost felt like people
letting off steam. Problem is like that escalates and if there's external media,
then then the pictures and then it starts. Oh you know, it's it
can get a little out of control. But it seemed very much that the
times I was in it, it seemed like everybody's just kind of knows what
they're they're doing the Monday and kind of rhythm of that area. Yeah,
and it's almost really I'm telling you, like, there's I mean there's You're
talking to eighteen year old boys on both sides right right, like nobody's dying.
They're just kind of messing around. You've been an eighteen year old boy.
I have been an eighteen year old boy. Sometimes I'm a thirteen year
old boy in my hit. But you know it's the it's the eighteen year
old boys. Like, yeah, I'd be on either side, I'd be
there. You know. So back to month or Isaac. You just mentioned
that you've known him, and one of the kind of dunks on Tucker that
frankly was fair after he posted that long interview with month Isaac, is that
you know a lot of people knew month or Isaac because he gave that speech
around Christmas that went viral about Jesus in the rebble of Bethlehem. But going
back right after October seventh, he referred to the siege, the Israeli siege.
He kind of you know, he said, we condemned murder and everything.
But basically, you know, typical leftist argument. His church is so
I grew up Missouri, Sin and Lutheran he's affiliated kind of with ALCA in
the American side, the Evangelical Lutheran Church for America. But is clearly and
you're going to be able to explain this better, but he's clearly from a
progressive, a progressive branch of the church in because I have familiarity with him,
is that he led for the ordination of women. Tell us it just
filling the many dots that I just left, right. I love I love
the international infrastructure of the Lutheran Church. Let me tell you about it.
Yes, he is. Here's the thing is that he actually has become more
progressive over the years that I've known him. Okay, like he was he
he became a serious believer, you know, actually as more as an adult
and got more into it, and he would I think the progressive I think
got pushed on him. And by progressivism, I mean the kind of language
of the wokeism, like the woke language things like you know, the settler
colonialists, the appeal to the indigenity, like thee like the language of the
left. He started using that a lot more, and I would say in
the last four or five years, like like, he's to me indistinguishable from
a you know, progressive professor, any kind of like liberal Christian institution.
It's like, you know, the Last christis the checkpoint that I attended.
There was only about seventy people there. I was not well received, and
there was a you know, the accession was like the Book of Ruth,
a story of sexual exploitation. Like course of course, yes, this is
perfect exactly what you know, which is like you would find that, you
know anywhere, you know, at a progressive seminary or something like that.
So he's not always been that way, he has become more and more that
direction he is. There's only like I don't think that is very neat.
People actually go to his church and his you know, baby Jesus in the
Rubble thing got a lot of traction all over the media, huge, huge
story, and to me, the issue with that was it's very much you
know, for all the crying of cultural appropriation, it was serious cultural appropriation
to take baby Jesus the Jew and put him in a rubble and wrapping him
with cafel, right, and like, make no reference to the fact that
you are in Bethlehem, the city of David, the Jewish city of David,
where Mother Mary and Joseph WinCE, you know, to register right like
that, that is it's so weird to me. That was like, oh,
okay, it's totally acceptable for us to culturally appropriate Jesus for this moment.
Put them in rubble. Now does Jesus uh stand with those who are
suffering and justly in God's a percent? Right? But Jesus is Jewish.
And if if part of your actions are to kill the people whom which Jesus
was part of, I guess some issues there, right. It just is
not It's like that. There's there's a you know, injustice is getting what
you're doing right, and it comes around, you know, debt. It
keeps you tossing and turning at night. You just can't get away from it.
But the truth is the system is actually designed to trap you in debt.
Insanely high interest credit cards and loans make it nearly impossible to pay off
your debt. But there's a new way out of the debt trap. Pivotal
Debt Solutions. Pivotal Debt Solutions isn't like the old school debt relief companies that
string your debt out for years. They have new aggressive strategies that can end
your debt faster and easier than you thought possible. Pivotal Debt Solutions can cut
or even eliminate interest, find programs to write off your balances so you owe
less, stop those threatening phone calls without bankruptcy and without a loan. The
bottom line is they find every solution possible to end your debt permanently. Before
you do anything, contact Pivotal Debt Solutions first. Talk to them for free.
Find out how fast they can help you get out of debt. Visit
zapmydebt dot com. That's zapmdebt dot com, zapmidebt dot com. And that
really brings us to one of the central questions of why or why Amn't or
Isaac now blames Israel for the fleeing of the Christians, for the quote unquote
siege and Bethlehem and all of that, because we were talking before we started
recording fundamentally about what both sides want, what the intended outcome is. In
Iran over the weekend obviously launched an attack on Israeli soil, not from a
proxy, not through the who these or has Belah, but from Iran itself.
Unprecedented in that respect. So that kind of brings into focus. What
the intended end goal is here? Because you know Iran really truly wants to
destroy Israel? Yes, so why then is it that month or Isaac sees
this through maybe a micro perspective instead of a macro perspective. What explains someone
who would be killed by our onions or persecuted by Iranians? Should they you
know, have their fantasy of their own imperialism destroying Israel, wiping off the
face of the earth. What's this deal? Well, I think so he
has the I mean the challenge for the Palestinian who is still sticking around in
best way is like it really does them no favors to support Jews or Israel,
Like it's like no one's like like Israel doesn't care. The Christians around
the world, they don't care. But you know who really cares the Muslims,
right right, Like you will? You will? You could die for
what like it's not worth it, right, And so if that's your starting
point, like it doesn't do any favors to come out and support of Israel
or or Jews or Christians sorry or Jews, then you're not going to do
it. And then like it just becomes kind of normal like your normal everybody
around you, and it's to protect you know, your your flock is to
say the things that keep them safe, and the things that keep them safe
is Israel sucks, right, And so you just start saying that all the
time, and over time it begins to like, you know, like it's
becomes normal and normative for you to speak in favor of the Muslims who rule
your life. I mean, I was with a I was with a Catholic
priest one time in Jordan, and it actually it was a we interviewed.
I had this group and we're interviewing a Catholic priest in a in a Muslim
cleric together, right, And the Catholic priest would not name the Temple Mount
the Temple Mount. He called it harmash Reef, which is what the Muslims
call it. And I said, why don't you call the Temple Mount the
Temple Mount? He said, well, it doesn't matter. I was like,
when Jesus went up, where did he go? Well it it doesn't
matter. It's not that you know, it's it's what's important, is you
know? And he just would not. I pushed him and it was clear
that he just couldn't do it because it wasn't it just it wouldn't do any
favors, Like why do that? Why why I pick that fight? Right?
Everybody everybody makes risk of reword calculations. Sure, Christians in the region
make them in a direction that we often don't have to hear. And aren't
they used intentionally as propaganda? Har and they just don't. It's a risk
award calculation. It is. It is. And at some point, like
you are, I mean listen, if you're your Palastandi and you've gone like
you've already crossed that line of like I'm just gonna you know, protect my
own first and like my my community and like then then it's you know,
you see what's happening in Gaza, and you come out like you're you're part
of you know, like we all order our lives, you know, and
like priority, like order them. You know, my am I American first.
I'm a Christian first? Am I? You know? Am I?
You know my my ancestors are like French and English or whatever? Am I
like? You know, my my Christian French American? Or am I French
American Christian? Like and and so I think a guy like Month has he's
like he's he's actually Palestinian first and then he's Christian, right, that's the
order in which he is has has chosen to align himself. And the thing
is, like, I know pastors over there who are who have done the
opposite, who identify as Christian first, and they face you know, a
good bit of persecution, but I won't name them so that nobody hurts them.
People. And if you know, they're just doing the work on the
ground of the Gospel, right, helping the poor, taking care of their
members, just trying to trying to hold it together, right. And they're
not out you know, in you know, giving statements to the International Court
of Justice how to stick it to the Jews, right, Like they're not
doing that. They're just doing the work of the Gospel. And if you
like at that point, really I don't care what you think about Israel and
Jewish people, because you're doing the hard work of the Gospel, right.
But if you like, the reason that I feel fine to go after the
month or is because not only do I know him, and we've had lots
of these conversations face to face, we've had fun ones. But it's like
he has chosen how he orders himself, and he is he has chosen to
order himself as the palace in need first and be himself to be used by
the Muslims and by Hamas specifically to make their case to the world. And
he's been doing it aggressively. And he's on you know, he was you
know, he was on piece Now's page, and now he's speaking the Tucker
and I have friends who messaged me is like, well, that horseshoe theory,
really that's funny. Well, that's actually though, I mean, I
think you can that's that's a version an explanation, a version of the explanation
that makes so much sense because you can see how in somebody's mind they would
order those priorities with the kind of what they see as a virtuous goal of
protecting their community, protecting this ancient community, this in the case of Piferus,
this beautiful church, et cetera. That's super interesting. No, and
it is you know, listen, I have I feel I feel terrible for
the plight of the Palestinians. Know, it really does, is really hard
for them, and it's even it just it got a lot harder after October
seventh, and they are they're in a difficult spot. They're in a bund
right and and like I said, a bunch of them have chosen to leave.
But the ones that have chosen to stick around, there are some that
are like, we're going to you know, we're just we feel like we're
called to be here and called to remain and be faithful. And and then
there are you know, there's there's Christians who are like one of the weird
thing is is that there are Christians who self identifies Christians because of the familial
background of like my family's been Christians for a thousand years, right, Like
that's our people. We're part of the Christian people. But they're atheists.
I was getting my haircut in Nazareth one time, and I asked, a
great way to start a story, I know, and I asked the barber,
I said, are you are you Christian and Moslim? You goes?
I'm Christian? So what church do you go to? Church? I'm an
atheist. And I think it's really hard for Americans to consider because we are
like for us, like the Christian label is a matter of faith, whereas
in a lot of places in particularly in the Middle East, like religion is
a part of identity. It's part of like you know, the fertility rate
of of in Iran is super low. It's one of the it's like you
put it on part with like Club med which is the lowest, one of
the lowest in Europe. And one of the factors is that secular people don't
have babies, which is which is true, is lots of lots of statistics
and data backing that up. Which means that you have all these people who
are outwardly religious, meaning the women wearing the huge job the like you know,
they'll do Ramadan, they'll do all the stuff. They're like, but
they they're not into it there, they're just going through the but they're like
they're they're essentially atheists or just not they're they're nons. They're like the nouns
of of the of the region, like theres not embracing it. And so
you know, it's you have a lot of that also there in Israel and
the Palestinian territories. It's it's not so it's just not so cut and dry.
And I think we you know, we look at it from over here
and go, you know, as as Tucker, did you know, man,
if you if you're if you're supporting you know, the country that's blown
up churches and and killing Christians. You know, you've lost the message.
You know, I would agree to that. I would agree that if that's
what's happenings, that's not what's happening. It's like it's it's it's much more,
it's much more complicated, like it's tribal, and it's very different than
it is here in the United States. But at the same time, it's
also I don't think it's hard for I think it shouldn't be hard for Christians
to actually take a stand and say, who's really causing the problems to the
Christian community in the region. It's not the Jews macro perspective, it is
clearly not the Jews, right, And you'd rather live in Israel than Irun
exactly. And there's a saying among the Islamis first to Saturday people than the
Sunday people. I was standing on a bridge in northern Iraq. Well that
was a long time and I was talking to an older Iraqi gentleman who said
he remembers playing with he remembers playing with the Jews when he was young.
And he said to us, and this was you know, a city emptied
of Christians because of ices. He said, I wish I knew then what
I know now, meaning like I wish I knew that they were coming for
us next, because we would maybe prepared differently, taking things, had different
like calculations. It's not it's it's like the fact is is that here in
the United States, when the Prohamas rally started, you know, in October,
it was like, oh, it's you know, Israel and the Jews
and whatever. But like I mean, they literally protested the Rockefeller Christmas tree
lighting. There was in Dallas, there was a Christmas tree lighting in a
mall and they Palestinian or the mos activists stopped that. The you know you
haven't Newsom canceled the Christmas tree lighting and in California said it was because of
you know, the threats, probably just because he didn't want to do it.
You know, it's busy that night, you know, at dinner or
something. French laundry, laundry was calling the reservation. Couldn't get out of
it a long time. You don't want to give that up. No,
it's takes a long time. You want us right, but it's it's still
like there was this clear shift between it's not just about the Jews, and
to me, it's you know that to me, the the root of anti
Semitism, the root of this like irrational Jew hatred, is that the Jews
were the people by which God brought has moral revelation into this world, and
the world hates him for it. Like like we we we know things like
all people are made in the image of God because of the books that the
Jews gave to the world and that the Christians then picked up and spread all
over the place, right like, we're just inconvenient by the way to us
as human beings, human being right, right, and we don't want that
we like we you know, are the New Testament talks about the love of
darkness, right like, we don't want to be exposed and we we actually
like to you know, hate each other, right, And so when we're
told to love one another one like, we're told to not hate each other,
we're told to live right by people that comes out of that book.
And if you're you don't want that, then you're gonna like it's you know,
there's a a lot of people been talking to me over the last couple
of weeks about this unity of what they're calling the Red and the Green right,
like the the Marxist communists and the you know Islamists lighting up together.
You know, they wouldn't be friends in other places are united and shutting down
you know, bridges and airports. I mean, it's like, wrote a
book on that right and it's and it's that's to me the moment we're in,
and it makes it civilizational. And what makes it so frustrating to me
that of all the people that Tucker could have interviewed in you know, Israel,
Palistini interritor or it's like, okay, you did the Palestinian territories,
but he asked him about Israel a month. Doesn't know anything about it,
Christians and Israel because he's not there, right, And instead he's you know,
he interviews somebody from interview a Christian in Israel, and they'll tell you,
they'll give you a different story. You got to hear all the sides.
But that's not what he did. And Plus, at the same time,
the real core problem is this unifying of the Red and the Green against
civilization, against the people who affirm the Bible. That's what the fight is
here. And either we can be like uniting to be people like we're the
people who are united and believe that the Bible is a blueprint for human flourishing.
Come together to say, hey, this is no this is like civilization
comes like we're rooted in this book. We know things like civil disobediences is
we understand civil disobedience is a good thing. Because of that. Where's the
like the you know, if it wasn't for the Jews would never have embraced
that, right because you have stories like the wind not the midwives in the
you know, in the time of Moses at the beginning of the Book of
Exodus, or you know the chad Rack Mishak and Bendigo and the fiery furnace,
right, like the details rendering of that is indullible. By the way,
I have no doubt. I have no doubt. And and you have
this those where God affirms civil disobedience, that doesn't happen in any other like
cultural institution out there. Things like difference yeah, well also, but the
difference between nations and empire, right like God affirms nations all through the Bible.
God never affirms empire right like he actually gives the boundaries to digital and
mostes hears your boundaries be right because you're a nation limiting where the empires is
just like ever growing. So it's never there's never the affirmation of empires,
always the affirmation of nations. That difference comes out of the Hebrew Bible,
like like you know, the New Testament is about interpersonal relationships. It's about
husbands, love your wives and fathers. Don't exasperate your children, and like
these relationships, you know, be like loved one kind Like this kind of
of interpersonal relationships is essential. Like much of the New Testament is kind of
talking about that kind of thing, whereas the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible
is about like nation building. How do you how do you build a community
and live together in peace? And there's this great there's this great picture in
the Book of Isaiah, second chapter where like basically the nations come up to
Jerusalem, they learn of the God of Jacob, right, they learn of
the law, and then God will judge between people, and then they will
turn their swords into pleasures and the spears into premnting books. It's me it's
a progression of you learn of this book, this book of human flourishing,
and if you adopt it. It brings peace, It brings the peace that
you're after. But we live in a world where people don't want to read
that book anymore, and yet they want peace. You know, Like my
daughter's you know, all she's graduating out of high school, but all through
her public education, every gymnasium and cafeteria had like you know, written on
the walls, kindness counts, don't bully, you know, be nice,
right, all of these some these are very biblical concepts and dress of its
roots. Right, and and ozgenis the public theologian has this great ideas,
like you said, like we're a cut flower generation. Right, It's like
this, we're like cut flowers in a vase. We don't we've been separated
from our roots and we're and we're struggling to understand why we're falling apart because
we were like we got all the pretty parts, you know what we did,
and then you know, COVID didn't help, and you know, and
then the conflicts and you know, it's where we were withering flowers. Right.
The water is getting a little dirty and steaky, and and it's we're
we we gotta we gotta get back to that. To me, we got
to get back to the roots, and it's understanding like it's I would say,
it's almost landed. That's why it's me that's so valuable for Christians to
visit Jerusalem, like to go to this place and stand it and recognize that
God chose a place and the people on this earth to make that known to
the world, and maybe they still matter. I'm baking. All they want
to do is keep you poor and stupid. The watch Doot on Wall Street
podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics
and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Some of the media are
trying to tell you it's bad if your prices go down, causing a deflation
spiral. If prices go down, are people really going to hold off on
buying things? Doesn't everyone need groceries. Whether it's happening in DC or down
on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the
Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski, Apple, Spotify, or wherever
you get your podcasts. I love the metaphor of the flowers in the base
because another part of that is you're just sort of floating right you're not tithered
to a root. You're floating in the water and you don't even know where
you are right. You know, a lot of my friends on the left
have these caricatures of why Christians care about Israel, and these are caricatures that
you're very familiar with, and I'm sure you confront all the time. I
imagine you know, they would listen to what you said about how Christians are
less landed and say, what do you mean. I hear these like wild
end Times pastors that are at the forefront of this Christian nationalism rising movement that
Donald Trump is going to usher into the White House and you know, rebuild
the Temple and all that. In your interactions with Israel, the country,
the government at Felos, which I'm imagining of great relationships with a lot of
people in Israel, is that ever an issue? Is that you know,
if you were responding to somebody on the left, does that define the Christian
approach to Israel? No? No, I mean you actually have a great
piece in the most about this from years ago that we dug up before we
started recording you. No, it's it's that is so, it's so much
of the assumption is oh like, actually, you know, I was,
you know, weeks ago with with one of the famous Christian nationalists and he's
like, Louke, you must be you know, I'm not a dispensationalist,
and you know, like you and I'm like, well, I'm not a
dispensationalist either. And this has been for those who don't know, dispensationalism is
one of the like premiere End Times visions where Israel is very key in that.
And but here's what's Here's Here's a weird thing, Emily is that over
the last several years, the Third Temple thing is is becoming very popular,
but not in Christian world, in the Jewish world, right, And I
was like I started getting you know, because I'm always curious, you know,
I think about we're the arguments that that either people on the left or
even like Christians who don't support Israel, like, what is the arguments they're
making? And I love to kind of like go explore that kind of those
issues on the ground, right, Like you know, I'm I love to
have conversations with people I'm not supposed to have conversations with, you know.
In two thousand and one, I spent two hours with the co founder of
Hamas and a rooftop in Ramala. Yeah. I know, it's super's super
weird. Yeah yeah. Yeah. He had gotten out of jail for like
like a like a couple of weeks before, and I landed a meeting with
him and it was fun. It was fun. Oh wait, I mean
fun as in like interesting and fun. And I like, I like good
conversations. I mean, anybody wants So I didn't throw you off the room.
I'm here and yeah no, it was like mind you was It was
like a mob boss. So I was like, that's that's what it is.
The vibe very charismatic. You could see how he could draw people.
I mean it's like, you know, leadership in charisma really matter, right,
and you can see that. One of the things I was was scariy
about this third Temple thing, and I was like, so I reached out
to my tour operator and I said, I want to meet the guy who
wants to build a third temple, like introduce me to that. Guy answered
like okay, And so they bring me to this place called the Temple Mount
Institute and then we go in and we go around and it's all the parts.
It's like the show, red table and this and the lamp stands and
like all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but why, like
because this is these are all Jews who are doing this. And I was
like, but make the case. Like and the person who was following,
you know, showing us around was you know, she was like a twenty
year old girl and she's cool and all, but she couldn't explain to me,
like make the case from the Jewish perspective. And so I got out
my tour opper. I said, listen, I want to meet the guy
who makes the case for the Third Temple. I want to hear it.
I want to hear the third And so they set up a lunch for me
and I meet this guy and actually it was not just me, but I
had my group with me and so everybody's part of this. And I,
you know, he's telling me all about you know, it's his vision for
it. You know, you asked him like, well, what about the
you know, there's there's a dome with the rock. It's kind of it's
in the ways, and how's that going to you know, I just don't
know. I don't know, I don't know how it's gonna like, but
I just know that this was you know, I'm supposed to I was supposed
to be you know, working towards that, okay uh And I said,
well, how did you get into this? And he goes, well,
I was. I was laying with my wife in bed and my wife says
to me, you know, Bible says we're supposed to have a temple.
What are you doing about that? And I was like, oh my gosh,
how many how many warriors have started in this world because some dude's wife
and next ms like, you know, you to take that, you know,
like right is that you Hug's wife's laying next to him going like what
you know, like Komanie is gonna like let lone three hundred rockets at you
and you got what nothing come on man? Right? Like I guarantee there's
a lot of a lot of international incidents is because some dudes wives land at
going you take that. But the strange thing is it's become there like it's
a very big thing among amongst a certain sector of Jews. And I feel
like that was catalyzed by the moving of the embassy that the start Trump administration
moving. Then you'll again you're shaking your head. Now, No, no,
it was before then, actually it was. It's it's there is a
there has been for a while, a rising kind of it's called a Messianic
movement within within within Judaism, and that we're in there when they're we're in
the age of of Mishiah, of the Messiah. And you know, I
don't think like, it's not like the Christians aren't driving this, like it's
like that. It's if anything, it's the other way around. Like the
Jews are are, you know, coming to the Christians and like saying,
hey, you know, can you help us with this kind of thing?
And and a bunch of Christians are like, yeah, okay, that sounds
fun, you know, but but it's not like definitive of the Christian No.
Not. Actually, I would say the majority of Christians, the majority
of Christians in America, actually the majority of the Christians in the world.
I don't think there's anything special about Israel and Jewish people and God's redemptive plant
like this. Like I would say it's probably a sixty forty split, maybe
it's thirty five, but it's in the direction of it's just you know,
Israel's Israel is to the Jews as Fiji is to the Fijians and French as
to France, right right, like you know, it's just part of like
it's the people is where they are. But it's not that like there's nothing
special in God's plan, right, like God moved on. Like we would
as Americans want to protect the Washington Monument, we would want to protect this
is this is our stuff, right yeah, we'd want to guess many we
want to protect these things. But it's not but it's not we don't need
them to practice right right, they're not they're not necessarily uh theologically significant any
longer. That's a huge group of American Christians. I would say it's the
majority, much to my much of the consternation of my Christian zion As friends,
if you think they actually have the majority, I mean all like that's
the Catholics. The Catholics don't think they're faythings, specially necessarily and like the
you know, the Missouri Synod does think so. Actually the Lutherans in general
don't think so. You know, the Baptists are played in half, you
know some like you know, the non Denomns displayed in half, so you
don't get this like it's not coming from this place of like there's this deep
well of plans, you know. And and I actually was was talking to
a friend of mine about doing a podcast series called the Rise and Fall of
Mars Hill. No, sorry, you did that, the Rise and Fall
of the Left Behind series, right, because that was huge for a whole
group of generation, definitely my generation, yeah generation right. I read them
all to and you know, I remember sitting with a pastors the you know,
the best and worst thing ever happened to dispensationalism was the Left Behind series
because you know, everybody's like, I'm a dispensational and then they read the
books like, oh, I'm not dispensational right like it was. It was.
It was a huge swing. And actually I was talking to recently a
worship guy and he was like, I was telling him that, he goes,
oh, it actually would be called the Rise and Fall and Rise again
of that bed. I was like, what do you mean and he said,
well, actually, the most popular worship songs that are coming that are
like growing in popularity all come out of the book a Revelation. I'm like,
oh, that's interesting. So I don't know, Emily, I don't
I like the people project on me that like the reason that I'm in this
because I have some grand end times planned. I don't. I don't.
I mean, like you know, I actually don't think about it all that
much. I am in this because I do think that there is something special
that the Jews have to play in this, in this unfolding of God's plan.
And I think the fact that Jews are going back to the land from
north to southeast and the west, back to the land that was promised to
them as an everlasting covenant. When I when when I hear everlasting, I
understand it to be everlasting, because that's what that would be, right,
And so I'm in this because I think there's something special there all and all
of our the whole New Testament is written by Jews, and so maybe there
I should try and think about what does this mean for them? Right,
Because I'm a gentile, I'm not Jewish, and I you know, I
got I got I got grafted into this story. But it's really their story
and I get to be a part of it, which is cool, but
it's not my story. And I'm and I'm excited to see how it unfolds.
And I and and I'm and I see this really strong connection between.
Wow, it's like the world really hates the Jews and that's really weird,
and then they hate the Christians too. Wonder Oh, maybe it's because we've
got the same book, right, And then you know, there's you know,
we're in Paul talks about Romans that were grafted in, like we're grafted
into this story. Says in Romans nine that the root sustains you. You
don't sustain the root, and he's talking to the Gentiles there and he thought
the root being this like story of the Jewish of the Patriot, the story
like thet the Covenants. And I'm like, oh, well, maybe,
because like we're grafted into the blessings, maybe we're also grafted into this the
curses, which means that this hatred that follows the Jews everywhere they go.
And there is a point, you know, and then we hated them also
for like two thousand years that I didn't help. But we're in this moment
now and my hope is that you know, Christians will take a moment,
take a step back and go, maybe there's something going on here. I
don't know how it unfolds. I'm actually I mean, I find it fascinating
and I'm into the you know, having a good conversation over beer. But
I'm not, like it's not the motivating factor, but it is for some
and I don't I don't slight them for it. And I also don't you
know, you know that all my friends who don't think there's anything special,
I don't think that is by nature anti semitic. And forget me in trouble.
Sure, no, no, that's fair. But because I don't think
saying that the Jews are not special is anti semitic, right, I think
that actually the point in which it makes anti semitic is to say they're they're
extra bad, right, there's something especially bad, right, and they are
the problem of the world. That is where you get anti Semitism. To
say that there's nothing actually special about them, to me is not that.
Actually I don't think that's particularly anti submittic. But I also think that I
do think there's about something special about them, and I think there's something special
that God still has a plan for them. That's that's my that's my starting
point. That's kind of I don' won't say it's my ending point, but
it's it's it's why I do this. And I totally didn't expect I don't
think I knew any Jews until twenty eleven. So it's a long time later.
I know. I know it's a long time for young and it's like
you, but for me, it was like I had I had a life
before then, you know, and and and I think it's yeah, I
fell into this. I always thought people like when I looked at people who
were like, really you know, zealous ra Israel and the Jews, like,
oh man, it's weird people people here. I am freaking weirdo over
here. Jews. Well, you know, this is a great place to
ask the last question I wanted to do. Ask so I know that a
fee of those you guys have done stuff with Nic Goneru, Cara Bac.
I know you've done stuff in a rock. I know you've done stuff easily
everywhere. And I just wanted to before I let you go, look,
you to tell us a little bit about what philos does and what you see
is the stakes for Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa and all of
those places that you guys are working. Yeah, I mean we are are
taglines. We promote positive Christian engagement in the Near East. And we define
the Near East if you draw a nine hundred mile radius out from Jerusalem,
that puts you in the lands of the Bible, right, And you know,
we started, we started this thing called Save Armenia to basically raise awareness
about the problem that was going on with you know, Turkey and osba Jhan
squeezing out the Armenians, because that's a big issue. And like, you
know, Noah's arc was like where it landed was in Armenia, and then
it was taken over by Turkey, but it's still like in the ethnic Armenian
area. And here's this first, you know, one of these first Christian
nations in the world, and they're just being squeezed by they squeezed by the
same way that the Christians throughout the region are being squeezed. And so we
started. You know, when we started, we were raising awareness about Christian
persecution all over the region. Isis was rising and the Christian communities were being
decimated fourteen And it's weird how I'm like that the same thing is happening again,
except like the Islamists are still strong and they've changed there. You know,
it's not isis anymore. It's amas Or. I mean, there was
a Christian in Lebanon that was a major Christian figure was he was killed last
week, and the head of the Meyrinite Church in Lebanon, for perhaps one
of the first time I'm aware of, actually came out against Hesbala and said,
hey watch it. You know, we got guns to guys. I
mean say that. That's me adding to it, but you know it's the
you know, felos means friend in Greek. And our argument is that there
are friends in the region. There are Christians, there are there are actually
good Muslims, Muslims who aren't looking to kill Jews. I mean, you
know, like the you know in the UAE and Bahrain and those countries that
have chosen to normalize with Israel. Right, Like, you know, what
if Israel was the model of the region instead of the problem of the region,
right, And what's the models they have? You have religious liberty,
you have freedom, you have a robust media, you have you know,
the freedoms that we want to have here, you know, and and even
if that doesn't happen, the Jews aren't going away, and there's something going
on with God and them that I think is real and you know, and
our roots are over there. It's like these churches are ancient, and you
know, I still think that they have a special place to play in what
God's doing in this world. And so we're very much about trying to you
know, just muck about. We also have some you know, programming to
engage the Spanish speaking world and the African Americans. We have those Catholic we
have stuff that we do related to fighting anti Semitism here in the United States.
But it's really it's really about, you know, let's let's get back
to our roots, because you know, you get back to your roots,
maybe we'll find the path out of this, you know, malaise that we're
in. This you know, the flowers wilting, you know, and maybe
we should change the water or put in the ground or something different than what
we're doing. And so, yeah, my hope is my hope. It's
for peace in the least I want that I want, but I know it's
going to be one step at a time. And because I'm a Christian,
I believe there's you got to lean into hope because I've seen I've seen too
many things that in my life to be hopeless him Man Luke Moon, executive
director of Philo's Project. Thank you so much. This has been fascinating.
You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Kashinski,
culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more.
Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fray. You got
me all right, well, you know