We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on ex at fdr LST.
Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of
our website as well. We're joined today by Jerry Crete. Jerry is the
author of a new book. It came out in January on January sixteenth.
It's called Litanys of the Heart, Relieving post Traumatic Stress and Calming Anxiety through
Healing Our Parts. Jerry, Welcome to Federalist Radio Hour. It's great to
be here. Now. You were telling me before we started recording that you
actually have a private practice. You're quite literally practice saying what you quite literally
are preaching. That's right, so Christian perspective to an industry that is just
in so much trouble in our hyper secular society. So could you give us
a little bit of background on your career in private practice and how you came
how you became motivated to write this book. Yeah, yes, Well,
my private practice is called Transfiguration, Counseling and coaching. And we're in Atlanta,
and we're a group of therapists and coaches, and we're in Atlanta,
Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and California and New York
at the moment. So we've spread about. And I did a doctorate in
counseling and marriage and family therapy and the University of Georgia. So I've been
working in private practice for quite some time. So this book is actually,
in part kind of the collection of a lot of wisdom and clinical experience that
I've had over the years. I could say a little bit about like the
whole approach, like we're talking about parts is in the title of the book,
and some people might be wondering, what is a part and what is
that about? Yeah, you actually talk to us a little bit about that,
because it's obviously a critical sort of concept to how you approach the topic
in the book. Absolutely, I mean I bring in multiple, you know,
kind of methodologies or modalities, but parts work is the primary one.
But I'll just say a little bit before I get into that. When I
first started working as a therapist, I did a lot of work with couples
and I used emotionally focused couple's therapy, which is really grounded and attachment theory,
So it's helping people to connect, but it does it in an experiential
way. In other words, you really work with a couple in the moment
to feel their feelings and connect deeply with them and go deeper and then ideally
then relate to the other person. And that was powerful, and then I
moved from there to learning about EMDR. It stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing.
It's a type of trauma treatment, and again it's really experiential. It's
about connecting the body and our thoughts and our feelings and actually making real changes
within based on the memories and the past hurts and stuff that we hold.
So I moved from emotionally focused therapy to doing EMDR, which was very effective
and kind of very powerful. But then I discovered parts work, And the
most popular type of parts work today is internal family systems, and that was
developed in the nineteen eighties by Richard Schwartz. But as I explored that,
I looked at other the history of parts work and how it's kind of been
with us for decades, but it's kind of been pushed aside as well,
because there's kind of this general notion within the world of psychology and really in
the secular world in general, that we are just one consistent, solid personality
and that's what we are, when in reality, that's just far from the
truth. And as we explore our parts, we discover that within us there
we have different aspects of self or different sub personalities that show up at various
times in various situations, often to help us, but sometimes these parts can
actually be not helpful, if they burdened, wounded, carrying some kind of
shame, fear, any kind of emotions like that. So once I discovered
that, it really was transformational in my practice. I mean, the people
came back within a week or two of just one session or two sessions saying
I'm relating differently to myself, I'm relating differently to other people. It's phenomenal.
It's so interesting. And one of the things I wanted to ask you
about was site Paul writing, I delight in the law of God in my
inmost self. I'm so curious how that quote is in a way foundational to
your work at helping people understand their inmost self. And probably I'm just guessing
you can correct me if I'm wrong. I would imagine you have clients that
are resistant to the idea of an inmost self and maybe even to some of
the language that you use that people have to use to kind of understand their
in most selves. Quite frankly, well yeah, yeah, Well what's fascinating
is that I was trained in ego state therapy, which is the type of
parts work, as well as learned quite a bit about internal family systems as
well. And egostate therapy is very broad in its approach to the inner world,
and you know, it's very interesting. But internal family systems was developed
by Richard Schwartz. He really emphasized the self. He just called it the
self. And what he discovered, which was really interesting, is that when
you look help a person look inside, no matter how traumatized there are,
no matter how much difficulty and pain they have in their lives, no matter
how disregulated they are and messing their lives are, when you help them kind
of like separate out their parts, connect with their parts, identify their parts,
but access the self, it was this huge resource of compassion and patience
and calm and clarity, and the self just naturally was kind of helpful and
good and transformed it. And he did this purely from a secular perspective.
He wasn't thinking of God or anything. And so I was fascinated by this.
And when I was doing this work, I found generally the same thing.
And so I look backwards into our into the Christian tradition to see,
well, where where does this exist? Is this compatible? And that took
me to that kind of quote you mentioned from Saint Paul about the inmost self,
And we know that Paul talks about this inmo self, but he also
talks about things that he does not want to do, the thing you know,
I do what I do not want to do. And Saint James later
talks about his members being in war with each other. And so there's this
there's a self, there's this deeper self, but then there's also these sort
of battling parts that are going on as well. But then if you look
at the entire like the history of the of the Christian Church, you know,
there's the monastery, the monastics, the you know, the monks and
spiritual gurus and so on, and saints and that, and they the ones
that are very mystical and very spiritual and prayer focus. They're always talking about
either a true self or a core self, or you know, sometimes they
talk about like the cave of the heart or the eye of the soul,
or the mirror. Anthon Asia is the mirror of the soul. It's like
this deep spiritual center. And so I think what Schwartz stumbled upon was this
deeper truth that we have an inner spiritual ciner that's that can get very much
covered over if you will, or very much obscured, very much of you
know, overwhelm. But once we discover it, it opens up healing,
It opens up opportunities for healing and growth, you know, against my better
judgment, I sort of went down the rabbit hole of sort of a militantly
secular website and a couple of weeks ago and was reading about their criticism of
the early Church and of monasticism being too derivative of the Stoics. And it's
funny because one of the things I wanted to ask is actually, where else
in scripture, you know, someone like yourself in the industry and people who
are thinking deeply about this incredibly important question, how where else is there in
scripture that we should find, you know, other than everywhere, but very
specifically that we can find God centered approaches christ centered approaches to this important work
of therapy. Wow, that's a great question. I mean, I was
really interested in exploring the scriptures because they do and in the book every chapter
has a component that's a scripture study. And I wanted to get away from
just doing you know, little text proof texts, you know, and little
passages here and there, and to actually deep dive into it as much as
I could in the and so looking into the Old Testament, I mean,
first of all, there's this concept of the heart, and it's used a
little differently sometimes in the Hebrew mind in the Old Testament compared to sometimes what
you see in the New Testament and what you see later on in the Church.
And so this even these terms are sometimes they're hard to get a fix
on. Fully, I like to I have a Western mind that wants to
define and systematize it. And it's tricky. So sometimes they mean different things
when they say soul, and they mean different things when they say heart.
But overall, if you kind of capture it all and you look at it
all, you see that there's this idea of this heart. You know,
you hear in the in Exodus, Pharaoh's heart is heartened. You hear about
the heart being softened. You hear about a new heart. You hear about,
you know, a fleshly heart like this kind of thing. And so
the heart is all throughout the Bible, this idea of the heart, and
so what is that? And I connected that to this deep spiritual center right
and the parts though too, because when there's division, if you will,
when there's a disintegrated heart, Saty Gustin of Hippo talks about in the Confessions
is beautiful psychologicals and spiritual journey. He talks about his heart being disintegrated and
what it is to be reintegrated, and so so much of the Christian message
if you look at the heart in the Bible, is about how the heart
is to be reintegrated and in the union with God. And so I don't
know if I'm getting to exactly what you were asking for, but I think
that's throughout. And I think then when you come to the New Testament and
you see, you know, Saint Paul and so much of what he was
writing, For example, he's talking about Christ as our example, as that
we are the body of Christ. And that together we have this diversity of
people like you, me, everyone, and together we are this unity.
Well that's kind of cool because that's going on in the sort of the kingdom
that's being created in the world, the church, but it's also the kingdom
within that we have as inner diversity that is also with this inmost self.
That is, you know, when sectified and so on, is kind of
representing Christ or mediating Christ's grace to us within our own selves. So it's
that's so I kind of believe the personal healing happens when we do allow we
do access that spiritual center, when we are open to God's grace in that
too. But we're healing and working with our parts so that we create an
inner harmony, an inner and we would say integration, not where we lose,
like we lose the individuality and a sense of our parts. There's diversity
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wherever you get your podcasts. Again, it's funny because I know some Christians
are vulnerable to this thinking of therapy culture as as something that is new and
necessarily progressive, that this is all sort of downstream of Freud and Young and
there can be no true Christian approach to having these conversations. Obviously it's not
true, but it is striking, especially reading you know Paul's work, how
much of what he wrote about was about self discipline and what might be categorized
even as self help these days. When you go back and I know you
did a lot of that with this book, there's something there's something to it
that's so much about discipline, and I wanted to ask you, I mean,
this is a culture that is very, very difficult to exercise discipline in
we are so blessed in all of our material realities, we are so distracted.
We are you know, all of our Maslowian hierarchies are mostly met or
a culture that has a problem of you know, being overweight in poor communities.
You know, poor communities more overweight than wealthy communities. And a lot
of that is just downstream of how materially blessed we are. But it does
sound like from your as you approach this issue, the culture we live in
makes it extremely difficult, extremely difficult, especially for all the distractions and everything,
to just focus em better yourself. Yeah, that's that's a great question.
A lot of things are coming to mind as as you propose this,
and I would agree in our society that as a challenge. However, I
think that what's interesting is that when when I talk about self love, and
I would say that we have to have self love first, we have to
love ourselves before we can truly love others and love God even and even that
scriptural when he said we are to love others as we love ourselves, Well,
if we hate ourselves, what does that mean for our neighbor? Right?
So, if we are to love ourselves in a proper way that it's
not about egotism, it's not about self absorption or selfishness. No, it's
about wanting the good for our self. And that might mean we're looking at
our different parts of ourselves and looking what is the good for each of our
parts? What is the good for ourselves? And so when we want the
good and we align our will our will, which kind of is the ability
to choose, right, we make it sure our whole human person makes the
choice. No part does it for us. The part influences it, but
we as a person, we make a choice. But when we want the
good for ourselves truly and we then we are loving ourselves. When, for
example, we have discipline. So you know, if all I want to
do is eat donuts all to a that's not really my good, right,
that's not truly loving myself, right. I mean, there are lots of
reasons why I might feel the need. You know, I'm numbing emotional pain,
or I'm just whatever it might be, but that's not actually my good.
So when we're working with the parts, we actually are wanting to help
them actually experience the good, which ultimately that is love. Right, And
so that involves some discipline. Then it's not going to be just say hey,
do whatever you want. It's not a hedonistic kind of a thing that's
not truly loving somebody. But ultimately, even that comes back to wanting our
ultimate ultimate good, which is union with God, relationship, communion, and
relationship with others as well. Like we want, it's about having healthy relationships,
it's about having real connections, it's about having real intimacy, real you
know, it's meaningful and purposeful, and we're finding meaning and purpose in our
lives through that and so much of what we're so many people struggle with anxiety
in this world because they don't really have any sense of purpose and meaning and
they're very disconnected from themselves, from others God. You said something earlier that
I wonder So you mentioned people are sort of believing that they're categorized as a
personality type and seeing themselves through that. Prism is the eneagram part of that,
not to get to granular and specific, but in Christian circles it's controversial
for some different reasons, but also really really popular. What do you make
of the aniogram and how it kind of fits into everything that you write about?
Yeah, yeah, so I'm not. I'm not an expert on the
aneogram. I don't even remember what I know. There's numbers, and I
remember that I had certain numbers and don't even ask me what they were.
I think there's probably some wisdom in that. I think that it's it's getting
at an understanding of ourselves and our personality, temperaments, and our preferences and
what it is. Like. There's other ones that I'm more familiar with,
like I used to know Myers Briggs a lot, which you know the letters
I'm an I, NFJ, for example. But what's great about it is
that it helps you kind of know yourself better. And a lot of those,
like the antiagram, like it's really neutral. It's not really good or
bad. It's just kind of like, yeah, this is gaining a better
understanding of who I am. I really like Clifton strengths. I don't know
if you're familiar with them. There it's developed a gallup initially, and there's
they basically come up with thirty four strengths or talents that people have, and
they and the combination of your strengths, like you have the top, you
have top strengths, and the combination that they're in really kind of says a
lot about who you are as a person. And Gallup has developed this out
of like tons of statistical analysis and tons of people, and so what they've
come up with is that it's your exact combination and the order of your strengths
is makes you like shockingly unique, something like you're one in a trillion or
something. And so, and what I find is when people get to know
there's top strengths and they learn and they're neutral, and the strengths are good
or bad, they're just neutral. They have different kinds, like some are
more about relationships, some are more about influencing others, some are more about
executing tasks and this and that. And so when you get to know them,
you're like, I'm really knowing myself better. I'm knowing my preferences,
what I'm good at, and I can live out of that space comfortably and
I don't have to try to be something I'm not. And so I find
any of those kind of those temperaments, the strengths, even our kerosms or
some things through some programs that talk about our kerosms, I find all those
things are often very helpful to get to know one's self. That's super interesting
and leads me to another question, which is we were talking earlier about how
people see mainstream contemporary therapies making sort of dadstream of Freud and Young and I
want to just get your take. We did a whole episode maybe a year
ago with doctor Sallie to tell at the American Enterprise Institute about some of the
problems with therapy enabling a culture of victimization in ways that are just psychologically unhealthy.
Could you talk to us a little bit about how the industry has been
influenced and I don't mean this in a leading way, but for better or
worse by some of those really popular psychologists and psychiatrists just in the last one
hundred and fifty years or so. Yeah. Yeah, Well, if I
go back further than that, actually, the word psychology, the word psychemeds
soul. So really psychology should be the study of the soul, which is
really fascinating. And we've reduced the soul to just the brain basically, or
just the intellectual behaviors and so on, and so we've kind of exercised the
spirituality aspect of our soul out of the equation of understanding the whole person.
That wasn't true in the you know, in the history in the first nineteen
hundred years of the last nineteen hundred years before the twentieth century, and there
was the Ancients and the medievals and stuff. These people they understood that those
the soul are spirit, our soul and our bodies were connected, that they
weren't in silos. So I would just throw that out that And there's a
long history actually that I've been having fun kind of exploring of how soul care
or how spiritual guidance and which was related to how you live your one's life
has been with us for so long. Just maybe it hasn't taken the form
that it did in the twentieth century where you sit on a couch and you
talk to somebody and you pay them and then you know, and this kind
of thing hasn't That hasn't been the norm, but it's been there in different
forms, maybe the spiritual fathers, or it's you know, maybe even in
going to confession or just having consultant whatever. There's there's always through of this.
But just you ask specifically about the last one hundred and fifty years,
I mean, I think that it comes out of really a whole approach again,
you know, kind of a scientific method type approach to trying to understand
our mental health. And I think if you look at Freud and Young and
all the early psychodynamic experts there, I mean, they were discovering some truths,
and I think the whole history of psychology is that they're discovering some truths.
But they're doing it with in my mind and my view with they're a
little bit impaired, you know, because they they're coming at it from that
Enlightenment mindset, the separation of science and faith, the separation of spirit and
body, the separate in these things, and that's ultimately unsatisfying. It will
answer some things, and it might provide some truths, but it won't be
the whole picture. And we've seen how since them, so much has changed
in terms of even just purely in a secular way. We've moved into a
more a lot more experiential methods of doing psychotherapy, like the ones I mentioned
EMDR for example. We're understanding better the body and the body and mind connection
and that you can't ignore the body, that it's we're affected by our mind
affects our body, and our body effects our mind. They can't be separated.
We're also aware house spirituality is so important a few years ago, like
in the nineteen maybe it was in the nineteen nineties into the two thousands,
but mindfulness became super popular. I mean, it still is popular, and
it's basically a secularized form of Buddhism. But they found it to be extraordinarily
effective in helping with anxiety and depression and various things. Well, it's because
it was including an aspect of our of who we are, which is our
soul or spirit, and so but I would say to that, you know,
that's interesting. There might be some dangers to that as well, I
would say my own view, But we have this incredible Christian history of meditation
and of exploring our inner world and of coming to that deeper, calmer place
of unit, but we don't do it. A big different between Buddhists,
like Eastern religions like Buddhism and Christianity would be that their whole point is to
empty oneself and to lose oneself in this sort of larger Bachmann or what have
you, whereas our whole tradition is about just maintaining the integrity of who we
are as a person, that we're created as beautifully as image in the image
of God, and so we never lose who we are, and yet we
enter and when we enter meditation, we experience this incredible calm and peace when
we are united with our God. So it's a personal relational experience that's powerful
and psychologically healthy, and that the whole one hundred and fifty years of psychology
hasn't really explored. No, it's so interesting, and you addressed this,
but it struck me as you were talking that the one important aspect is,
or maybe the foundation the premise here is actually a supernatural belief in the soul.
And when you take that out of the equation, you probably do discover
some truths and land in some important places, but what you're doing is still
fundamentally different in a way. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it's
a hard thing to define the soul, and so that's why we get into
some trouble a little bit, right, because of course we want to our
Western minds, we want to exactly quantify that, and we can't put our
minds on it. It's interesting some things that are coming up these days.
I'm not an expert in quantum physics. I'm not an expert. I'm nowhere
near an expert. But even when I look at those things, and we're
discovering things like about you know, consciousness and quantum theory, and we're discovering
that there's a lot, we're discovering deeper truths sometimes that it the ancients have
always understood, they've just didn't have those scientific language for. But it relates
to our spiritual who we are as spirit and what is our consciousness and what
is it? What is our mind, our will and our intellect and what
is that? How is that spiritual on a deep level. That's image because
it's immaterial in some sense, because we have never been able to, like,
we can't put the will in a in a box in the brain.
They try, but they really can't. And they haven't been able to put
a box on what really makes us alive, which is the spirit and and
what makes us unique as human beings too, and the ability to be so
creative, the ability to be so compassionate. Are when we're great, we're
great. When we're great as human beings, we're almost divine, like in
the image of God. That's why. But when we're when we're not we
can be more depraved than an animal because because we have malice. But even
just that that morality that I'm just sort of laying out there really quickly,
Even just the fact that there is a morality that you get and I think
most of our listeners, your listeners probably are getting right now. But we
can't put that in a scientific box, but it's it's inherent to who we
are. Yeah, that is very interesting. I think a lot of people
were surprised during the pandemic to see the levels and this was happening before the
pandemic, but especially I think coming out of the pandemic, people were surprised
to see the levels of addiction of you know, use of antidepressants among so
many different demographics, really high, high level, high levels there at really
high levels of people who do go to therapy. Now there's a lot of
consciousness amount mental health, and you know, I think you're offering something that's
an alternative to the kind of mainstream and we're in an era of institutional distrust.
So just wonder if that's something is that is that a real challenge working
in the space right now overcoming uh, you know, people's perhaps distrust in
the medical profession be therapy, see different uh treatments, all of that is
that a real hurdle that has to be overcome. Now, perhaps I haven't
experienced that as a counselor. I think there's just so much need that you
know, we're just we're just trying to meet at the demand for need that
you're talking about. Yeah, that is good in a sense, it's good
for business. But I know also that people are willing to turn yes help,
yes, yes, and so no, that is good. I think
younger generations have a different understanding of therapy than than people even my age and
older. I think they're just there's just an openness and an understanding that getting
help in this in this domain is a normal part of life. It's not
a stigma thing. It's not you don't have to be delusional or psychotic to
just get therapy. You know, everyone kind of can use help. But
I would say the pandemic like you were mentioning, led to a lot of
you know, of anxiety in the world and so on, or depression in
that And I would say a couple of things. We have a deep seated
need for connection and we have a deep you know, to be known to
connect with other people to be in relationship. Even even if you're really you're
an introvert, you still need connections. You're just maybe not going to have
them as as many individuals or as intense or whatever. But and that was
curtailed during the pandemic when we were forced dies a late or when we were
you know, not able to connect with people, or even if you think
about situations where like somebody was giving birth and their other family members weren't able
to connect with them, or people were dying in hospitals and people weren't able
to connect with their loved ones, they were forts to wait outside. It
was deep, deep trauma. There deep disconnections going on throughout the pandemic.
But the bigger thing also is just we seek connection in part for safety,
and we seek safety and we want it. We don't feel peace inside unless
we have safety, and that we're not going to always have safety every minute
of the day, but we want to have this general sense that we are
in fact safe where we live, our community, our world, country,
that there's a sense of safety and connection with others. Well, we talked
about institutional distrust, you talked about the pandemic and everything people didn't feel safe.
They didn't feel safe on a physical level, like am I going to
die from this disease? Like? What do we know about it? You
know? And there's all these different kinds of competing information about it. Do
I feel safe in medical institutions? Do I feel safe with the information?
Am I going to be cared for? You know? And then you've got
other things like you know, wars going on, You've got Russia, Ukraine,
You've got stuff that Israel and housetime. Like basically people feel like will
feel like this world isn't very safe. And then you add to that the
pandemic where you feel like you can't even connect with the loved ones easily.
You're isolated. That really digs at our deepest, deepest insecurities and brings us
lots of anxiety. And what about the specific influence of social media doing something
that has never happened before in human history, which is allowing people in one
part of the world, you know, not just to turn on the nightly
news and see Dan Rather broadcasting from the middle of the Vietnam War in a
jungle, but actually twenty four hours a day to see the full extent of
human suffering in every corner of the globe. You know, if you have
Snapchat, you can literally zoom into wars Own in any hour of the day
and watch the stories that have been posted there. You know, if you're
on social media at all, you can basically do the same thing. It's
unusual, it seems hyper novel. It seems something that you know is exacerbating
a lot of stress and anxiety. Is there something specific about social media that's
that's ailing the modern man or woman? Yeah, I mean again, I
want to have research on it. And it hasn't been around for that long.
But even in my own lifetime, I mean, you talked about the
news. You would get the paper in the morning maybe, and then you
would watch the news in the evening, and that was your contact with the
outside world and what was going on in the world in general for most people.
And you know, and there was a lot of time to absorb that
and discuss that. But you did it in a small community where you lived,
and you felt safe in that small community. I think that in general
most people and then, but in general now is social media. People are
less connected in their small communities, if they're connected at all in their small
communities. But they're connected all over the world often, and yeah, like
you're mentioning, they have getting all this information and some of it is very
scary, is very frightening, and they're getting it at twenty four they can
get it twenty four seven if they want to. So there's no And I
think social media my understanding of how a lot of it works, with the
algorithms and so on, that when you are interested in something, they keep
showing you things related to that, and if you're and also if you have
a certain perspective on it, it's going to show you more things with that
perspective. So if you are afraid of something, you're going to get more
sites and more things that are going to include that fear and reinforce that fear.
So we're not in we're not having actually good discussions with people that we
disagree with. We're not learning about things that we won't that we're not already
worried about. We're learning more about the things we're already worrying about. And
it's all the time, and so we're not having any time to distill that,
we're not having much time to process that. So to me, I
can't I can't imagine that it does anything but create anxiety for most people,
right, And of course it's also I think there's an addictive quality to the
stuff as well. So I've experienced that I sometimes do that on the news,
on my news feed. I sometimes I am just like I need to
just stop looking at this. I could just go on forever and do is
that good for me? And what is it doing for me to be feel
like all these things are happening and I'm completely helpless to do anything about it.
After a while, that just creates a sense of helplessness. This creates
a sense of lack of empowerment, the sense of despair ultimately. So I'm
not saying social media is all that. I'm just saying I think that it's
become so part of our lives and that many people are on it, like
what seems like twenty four to seven is just that cannot be healthy. No,
that makes a lot of sense. My last question is this is just
my own personal curiosity as a counselor can you, like, if you're in
a conversation with friends, new acquaintances, can you turn it off or are
you constantly you know, in your personal life, is it hard for you
to not sort of be seeing people or and maybe this is a good thing,
but you know, seeing their where their where their fears may be,
where their insecurities might be. How do you handle that just on a personal
level. Well, I mean, the great thing about this, my whole
approach that's in my book and everything is about parts work, is that there's
a part of me. This shows up as a therapist, right And so
you're getting that right now, Well you're getting that, but you're also getting
this part of me that is where and cond just that there are a lot
of people listening, not just to you, and so I'm also conscious of
that. But I do think you're getting a certain part of me. If
you know, if I was to meet you with a bunch of friends and
we're having a few drinks and we're just chatting or whatever, you would see
a different part of me. It wouldn't be It's still me, you know
what I mean, Like it would still be me. But but you're getting
a different, different part. And I think we have multiple parts and for
good reasons, right And you know, if you were if I'm working with
my kids, my kids see a dad part of me, you know,
So we have that we're different now. I will admit, though, I
can remember playing a game with somebody it was I'm really nerdy. It was
a it was a game based on the TV show Battlestar Galactica. Where Where
Where the other where somebody in the group is asylum, but you don't know
who it is. And then and you're playing this game anyway, and I
was the guy across from me said something like, oh, I'm not a
sideline, and his eyebrow went up or he did a certain twitch in his
face, and right away I knew, oh, that's a tell he's lying.
So I knew he was the pylon. And I was able to like
take him out quickly right in the game, which I felt like I was
sort of cheating. It's like, you're probably good at poker too, Yeah,
maybe. Yeah, if somebody is bluffy, I can sometimes tell.
That's so funny. Well, thank you so much. The book again is
Litany's of the Heart, Relieving post traumatic stress and calming anxiety through Healing our
Parts. Jerry Crete, just appreciate you sharing your insights with us on today's
edition of the show. It's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you
so much. Well, you've been listening to another episode of Federalist Radio Hour.
I'm Emily Tshenski, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be back
soon with more. Until then, see lovers of freedom and anxious for the friend right