1 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,480 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, 2 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:24,760 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,640 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on ex at fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:33,560 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,840 our website as well. We're joined today by Jerry Crete. Jerry is the 6 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,359 author of a new book. It came out in January on January sixteenth. 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,600 It's called Litanys of the Heart, Relieving post Traumatic Stress and Calming Anxiety through 8 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,439 Healing Our Parts. Jerry, Welcome to Federalist Radio Hour. It's great to 9 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:56,240 be here. Now. You were telling me before we started recording that you 10 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,159 actually have a private practice. You're quite literally practice saying what you quite literally 11 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:06,840 are preaching. That's right, so Christian perspective to an industry that is just 12 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,359 in so much trouble in our hyper secular society. So could you give us 13 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:17,120 a little bit of background on your career in private practice and how you came 14 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:21,519 how you became motivated to write this book. Yeah, yes, Well, 15 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,120 my private practice is called Transfiguration, Counseling and coaching. And we're in Atlanta, 16 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,239 and we're a group of therapists and coaches, and we're in Atlanta, 17 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,760 Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and California and New York 18 00:01:37,879 --> 00:01:42,200 at the moment. So we've spread about. And I did a doctorate in 19 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,799 counseling and marriage and family therapy and the University of Georgia. So I've been 20 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:52,239 working in private practice for quite some time. So this book is actually, 21 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,319 in part kind of the collection of a lot of wisdom and clinical experience that 22 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:01,439 I've had over the years. I could say a little bit about like the 23 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,760 whole approach, like we're talking about parts is in the title of the book, 24 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:08,199 and some people might be wondering, what is a part and what is 25 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,400 that about? Yeah, you actually talk to us a little bit about that, 26 00:02:12,439 --> 00:02:17,159 because it's obviously a critical sort of concept to how you approach the topic 27 00:02:17,199 --> 00:02:22,159 in the book. Absolutely, I mean I bring in multiple, you know, 28 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,199 kind of methodologies or modalities, but parts work is the primary one. 29 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,520 But I'll just say a little bit before I get into that. When I 30 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,639 first started working as a therapist, I did a lot of work with couples 31 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,840 and I used emotionally focused couple's therapy, which is really grounded and attachment theory, 32 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,159 So it's helping people to connect, but it does it in an experiential 33 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:47,759 way. In other words, you really work with a couple in the moment 34 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,439 to feel their feelings and connect deeply with them and go deeper and then ideally 35 00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:59,719 then relate to the other person. And that was powerful, and then I 36 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:06,719 moved from there to learning about EMDR. It stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. 37 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:12,919 It's a type of trauma treatment, and again it's really experiential. It's 38 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:20,680 about connecting the body and our thoughts and our feelings and actually making real changes 39 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:24,599 within based on the memories and the past hurts and stuff that we hold. 40 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:30,240 So I moved from emotionally focused therapy to doing EMDR, which was very effective 41 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,840 and kind of very powerful. But then I discovered parts work, And the 42 00:03:35,919 --> 00:03:43,800 most popular type of parts work today is internal family systems, and that was 43 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,560 developed in the nineteen eighties by Richard Schwartz. But as I explored that, 44 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:53,319 I looked at other the history of parts work and how it's kind of been 45 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,639 with us for decades, but it's kind of been pushed aside as well, 46 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,240 because there's kind of this general notion within the world of psychology and really in 47 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:10,919 the secular world in general, that we are just one consistent, solid personality 48 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,120 and that's what we are, when in reality, that's just far from the 49 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:18,600 truth. And as we explore our parts, we discover that within us there 50 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,839 we have different aspects of self or different sub personalities that show up at various 51 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,319 times in various situations, often to help us, but sometimes these parts can 52 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,600 actually be not helpful, if they burdened, wounded, carrying some kind of 53 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:41,800 shame, fear, any kind of emotions like that. So once I discovered 54 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,800 that, it really was transformational in my practice. I mean, the people 55 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,279 came back within a week or two of just one session or two sessions saying 56 00:04:49,199 --> 00:04:54,240 I'm relating differently to myself, I'm relating differently to other people. It's phenomenal. 57 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,319 It's so interesting. And one of the things I wanted to ask you 58 00:04:58,319 --> 00:05:02,600 about was site Paul writing, I delight in the law of God in my 59 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:12,879 inmost self. I'm so curious how that quote is in a way foundational to 60 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:17,279 your work at helping people understand their inmost self. And probably I'm just guessing 61 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:21,240 you can correct me if I'm wrong. I would imagine you have clients that 62 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:29,279 are resistant to the idea of an inmost self and maybe even to some of 63 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:34,199 the language that you use that people have to use to kind of understand their 64 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:40,680 in most selves. Quite frankly, well yeah, yeah, Well what's fascinating 65 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,639 is that I was trained in ego state therapy, which is the type of 66 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:48,160 parts work, as well as learned quite a bit about internal family systems as 67 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:54,319 well. And egostate therapy is very broad in its approach to the inner world, 68 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,560 and you know, it's very interesting. But internal family systems was developed 69 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,399 by Richard Schwartz. He really emphasized the self. He just called it the 70 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:11,480 self. And what he discovered, which was really interesting, is that when 71 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,360 you look help a person look inside, no matter how traumatized there are, 72 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,040 no matter how much difficulty and pain they have in their lives, no matter 73 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:25,240 how disregulated they are and messing their lives are, when you help them kind 74 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,480 of like separate out their parts, connect with their parts, identify their parts, 75 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,600 but access the self, it was this huge resource of compassion and patience 76 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:43,839 and calm and clarity, and the self just naturally was kind of helpful and 77 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,560 good and transformed it. And he did this purely from a secular perspective. 78 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:54,399 He wasn't thinking of God or anything. And so I was fascinated by this. 79 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:58,319 And when I was doing this work, I found generally the same thing. 80 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,199 And so I look backwards into our into the Christian tradition to see, 81 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,720 well, where where does this exist? Is this compatible? And that took 82 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:11,000 me to that kind of quote you mentioned from Saint Paul about the inmost self, 83 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,439 And we know that Paul talks about this inmo self, but he also 84 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:17,120 talks about things that he does not want to do, the thing you know, 85 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,360 I do what I do not want to do. And Saint James later 86 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,480 talks about his members being in war with each other. And so there's this 87 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,800 there's a self, there's this deeper self, but then there's also these sort 88 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:31,800 of battling parts that are going on as well. But then if you look 89 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,560 at the entire like the history of the of the Christian Church, you know, 90 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:41,439 there's the monastery, the monastics, the you know, the monks and 91 00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:46,199 spiritual gurus and so on, and saints and that, and they the ones 92 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,480 that are very mystical and very spiritual and prayer focus. They're always talking about 93 00:07:50,519 --> 00:07:57,040 either a true self or a core self, or you know, sometimes they 94 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,639 talk about like the cave of the heart or the eye of the soul, 95 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,040 or the mirror. Anthon Asia is the mirror of the soul. It's like 96 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:11,399 this deep spiritual center. And so I think what Schwartz stumbled upon was this 97 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:18,680 deeper truth that we have an inner spiritual ciner that's that can get very much 98 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:24,079 covered over if you will, or very much obscured, very much of you 99 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,360 know, overwhelm. But once we discover it, it opens up healing, 100 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,360 It opens up opportunities for healing and growth, you know, against my better 101 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,480 judgment, I sort of went down the rabbit hole of sort of a militantly 102 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:43,799 secular website and a couple of weeks ago and was reading about their criticism of 103 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:50,679 the early Church and of monasticism being too derivative of the Stoics. And it's 104 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,159 funny because one of the things I wanted to ask is actually, where else 105 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:01,639 in scripture, you know, someone like yourself in the industry and people who 106 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,879 are thinking deeply about this incredibly important question, how where else is there in 107 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:11,679 scripture that we should find, you know, other than everywhere, but very 108 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:18,159 specifically that we can find God centered approaches christ centered approaches to this important work 109 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:24,600 of therapy. Wow, that's a great question. I mean, I was 110 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:28,320 really interested in exploring the scriptures because they do and in the book every chapter 111 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:33,759 has a component that's a scripture study. And I wanted to get away from 112 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:39,559 just doing you know, little text proof texts, you know, and little 113 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,960 passages here and there, and to actually deep dive into it as much as 114 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,799 I could in the and so looking into the Old Testament, I mean, 115 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,200 first of all, there's this concept of the heart, and it's used a 116 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,600 little differently sometimes in the Hebrew mind in the Old Testament compared to sometimes what 117 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:58,919 you see in the New Testament and what you see later on in the Church. 118 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,799 And so this even these terms are sometimes they're hard to get a fix 119 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:05,759 on. Fully, I like to I have a Western mind that wants to 120 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:11,240 define and systematize it. And it's tricky. So sometimes they mean different things 121 00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:15,279 when they say soul, and they mean different things when they say heart. 122 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,240 But overall, if you kind of capture it all and you look at it 123 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,480 all, you see that there's this idea of this heart. You know, 124 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:28,440 you hear in the in Exodus, Pharaoh's heart is heartened. You hear about 125 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,120 the heart being softened. You hear about a new heart. You hear about, 126 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:35,559 you know, a fleshly heart like this kind of thing. And so 127 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:39,799 the heart is all throughout the Bible, this idea of the heart, and 128 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,279 so what is that? And I connected that to this deep spiritual center right 129 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,120 and the parts though too, because when there's division, if you will, 130 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,240 when there's a disintegrated heart, Saty Gustin of Hippo talks about in the Confessions 131 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:05,120 is beautiful psychologicals and spiritual journey. He talks about his heart being disintegrated and 132 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,679 what it is to be reintegrated, and so so much of the Christian message 133 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,960 if you look at the heart in the Bible, is about how the heart 134 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,840 is to be reintegrated and in the union with God. And so I don't 135 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,360 know if I'm getting to exactly what you were asking for, but I think 136 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,679 that's throughout. And I think then when you come to the New Testament and 137 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,799 you see, you know, Saint Paul and so much of what he was 138 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:39,519 writing, For example, he's talking about Christ as our example, as that 139 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,840 we are the body of Christ. And that together we have this diversity of 140 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:48,080 people like you, me, everyone, and together we are this unity. 141 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,679 Well that's kind of cool because that's going on in the sort of the kingdom 142 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,919 that's being created in the world, the church, but it's also the kingdom 143 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:03,200 within that we have as inner diversity that is also with this inmost self. 144 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:05,759 That is, you know, when sectified and so on, is kind of 145 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:13,200 representing Christ or mediating Christ's grace to us within our own selves. So it's 146 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,679 that's so I kind of believe the personal healing happens when we do allow we 147 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,879 do access that spiritual center, when we are open to God's grace in that 148 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,960 too. But we're healing and working with our parts so that we create an 149 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:33,320 inner harmony, an inner and we would say integration, not where we lose, 150 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:39,320 like we lose the individuality and a sense of our parts. There's diversity 151 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:46,480 there, but it's all united and integrated. No matter what side of funding 152 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,200 the war in Ukraine you fall on, enough is enough. The watched at 153 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:54,000 on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the 154 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,879 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Congress is 155 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,559 sitting your tax dollars. But they don't want to said it by cutting anything 156 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,080 else. They'll just throw it onto the pile of trillions of more debt. 157 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,360 Cut it from somewhere else in the budget. Whether it's happening in DC or 158 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:11,320 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out 159 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,799 the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or 160 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:20,200 wherever you get your podcasts. Again, it's funny because I know some Christians 161 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,559 are vulnerable to this thinking of therapy culture as as something that is new and 162 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:31,120 necessarily progressive, that this is all sort of downstream of Freud and Young and 163 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:37,679 there can be no true Christian approach to having these conversations. Obviously it's not 164 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:43,159 true, but it is striking, especially reading you know Paul's work, how 165 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:50,759 much of what he wrote about was about self discipline and what might be categorized 166 00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:54,039 even as self help these days. When you go back and I know you 167 00:13:54,080 --> 00:14:00,360 did a lot of that with this book, there's something there's something to it 168 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,559 that's so much about discipline, and I wanted to ask you, I mean, 169 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,360 this is a culture that is very, very difficult to exercise discipline in 170 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:13,440 we are so blessed in all of our material realities, we are so distracted. 171 00:14:15,799 --> 00:14:20,919 We are you know, all of our Maslowian hierarchies are mostly met or 172 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,519 a culture that has a problem of you know, being overweight in poor communities. 173 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:28,600 You know, poor communities more overweight than wealthy communities. And a lot 174 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:31,799 of that is just downstream of how materially blessed we are. But it does 175 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:37,159 sound like from your as you approach this issue, the culture we live in 176 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:45,000 makes it extremely difficult, extremely difficult, especially for all the distractions and everything, 177 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:52,279 to just focus em better yourself. Yeah, that's that's a great question. 178 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,039 A lot of things are coming to mind as as you propose this, 179 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,559 and I would agree in our society that as a challenge. However, I 180 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,919 think that what's interesting is that when when I talk about self love, and 181 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,600 I would say that we have to have self love first, we have to 182 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:16,960 love ourselves before we can truly love others and love God even and even that 183 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,919 scriptural when he said we are to love others as we love ourselves, Well, 184 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,360 if we hate ourselves, what does that mean for our neighbor? Right? 185 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:30,159 So, if we are to love ourselves in a proper way that it's 186 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,399 not about egotism, it's not about self absorption or selfishness. No, it's 187 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,480 about wanting the good for our self. And that might mean we're looking at 188 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,639 our different parts of ourselves and looking what is the good for each of our 189 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:48,879 parts? What is the good for ourselves? And so when we want the 190 00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:54,559 good and we align our will our will, which kind of is the ability 191 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,679 to choose, right, we make it sure our whole human person makes the 192 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:02,600 choice. No part does it for us. The part influences it, but 193 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,080 we as a person, we make a choice. But when we want the 194 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,200 good for ourselves truly and we then we are loving ourselves. When, for 195 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,840 example, we have discipline. So you know, if all I want to 196 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,600 do is eat donuts all to a that's not really my good, right, 197 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:23,840 that's not truly loving myself, right. I mean, there are lots of 198 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,360 reasons why I might feel the need. You know, I'm numbing emotional pain, 199 00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:32,480 or I'm just whatever it might be, but that's not actually my good. 200 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:36,039 So when we're working with the parts, we actually are wanting to help 201 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,320 them actually experience the good, which ultimately that is love. Right, And 202 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:48,240 so that involves some discipline. Then it's not going to be just say hey, 203 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,360 do whatever you want. It's not a hedonistic kind of a thing that's 204 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:59,080 not truly loving somebody. But ultimately, even that comes back to wanting our 205 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,079 ultimate ultimate good, which is union with God, relationship, communion, and 206 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:10,319 relationship with others as well. Like we want, it's about having healthy relationships, 207 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,880 it's about having real connections, it's about having real intimacy, real you 208 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,200 know, it's meaningful and purposeful, and we're finding meaning and purpose in our 209 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,240 lives through that and so much of what we're so many people struggle with anxiety 210 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:27,559 in this world because they don't really have any sense of purpose and meaning and 211 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:36,519 they're very disconnected from themselves, from others God. You said something earlier that 212 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:41,400 I wonder So you mentioned people are sort of believing that they're categorized as a 213 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:52,200 personality type and seeing themselves through that. Prism is the eneagram part of that, 214 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:56,440 not to get to granular and specific, but in Christian circles it's controversial 215 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,319 for some different reasons, but also really really popular. What do you make 216 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,039 of the aniogram and how it kind of fits into everything that you write about? 217 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,680 Yeah, yeah, so I'm not. I'm not an expert on the 218 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,039 aneogram. I don't even remember what I know. There's numbers, and I 219 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,920 remember that I had certain numbers and don't even ask me what they were. 220 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,440 I think there's probably some wisdom in that. I think that it's it's getting 221 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,440 at an understanding of ourselves and our personality, temperaments, and our preferences and 222 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,400 what it is. Like. There's other ones that I'm more familiar with, 223 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:33,519 like I used to know Myers Briggs a lot, which you know the letters 224 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,480 I'm an I, NFJ, for example. But what's great about it is 225 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:42,079 that it helps you kind of know yourself better. And a lot of those, 226 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,359 like the antiagram, like it's really neutral. It's not really good or 227 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,599 bad. It's just kind of like, yeah, this is gaining a better 228 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:56,240 understanding of who I am. I really like Clifton strengths. I don't know 229 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,960 if you're familiar with them. There it's developed a gallup initially, and there's 230 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:07,319 they basically come up with thirty four strengths or talents that people have, and 231 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:10,319 they and the combination of your strengths, like you have the top, you 232 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,440 have top strengths, and the combination that they're in really kind of says a 233 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,240 lot about who you are as a person. And Gallup has developed this out 234 00:19:18,319 --> 00:19:25,000 of like tons of statistical analysis and tons of people, and so what they've 235 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:30,200 come up with is that it's your exact combination and the order of your strengths 236 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,359 is makes you like shockingly unique, something like you're one in a trillion or 237 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,440 something. And so, and what I find is when people get to know 238 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,799 there's top strengths and they learn and they're neutral, and the strengths are good 239 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,920 or bad, they're just neutral. They have different kinds, like some are 240 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,359 more about relationships, some are more about influencing others, some are more about 241 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,559 executing tasks and this and that. And so when you get to know them, 242 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,240 you're like, I'm really knowing myself better. I'm knowing my preferences, 243 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:04,039 what I'm good at, and I can live out of that space comfortably and 244 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,960 I don't have to try to be something I'm not. And so I find 245 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,799 any of those kind of those temperaments, the strengths, even our kerosms or 246 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:17,400 some things through some programs that talk about our kerosms, I find all those 247 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,240 things are often very helpful to get to know one's self. That's super interesting 248 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:30,359 and leads me to another question, which is we were talking earlier about how 249 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:37,240 people see mainstream contemporary therapies making sort of dadstream of Freud and Young and I 250 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,480 want to just get your take. We did a whole episode maybe a year 251 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,759 ago with doctor Sallie to tell at the American Enterprise Institute about some of the 252 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:51,599 problems with therapy enabling a culture of victimization in ways that are just psychologically unhealthy. 253 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,799 Could you talk to us a little bit about how the industry has been 254 00:20:55,839 --> 00:20:59,319 influenced and I don't mean this in a leading way, but for better or 255 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:06,799 worse by some of those really popular psychologists and psychiatrists just in the last one 256 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,559 hundred and fifty years or so. Yeah. Yeah, Well, if I 257 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:14,200 go back further than that, actually, the word psychology, the word psychemeds 258 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,000 soul. So really psychology should be the study of the soul, which is 259 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:23,279 really fascinating. And we've reduced the soul to just the brain basically, or 260 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:30,240 just the intellectual behaviors and so on, and so we've kind of exercised the 261 00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:33,599 spirituality aspect of our soul out of the equation of understanding the whole person. 262 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:40,640 That wasn't true in the you know, in the history in the first nineteen 263 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,880 hundred years of the last nineteen hundred years before the twentieth century, and there 264 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,640 was the Ancients and the medievals and stuff. These people they understood that those 265 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:56,839 the soul are spirit, our soul and our bodies were connected, that they 266 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,720 weren't in silos. So I would just throw that out that And there's a 267 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,799 long history actually that I've been having fun kind of exploring of how soul care 268 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:12,039 or how spiritual guidance and which was related to how you live your one's life 269 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:17,440 has been with us for so long. Just maybe it hasn't taken the form 270 00:22:17,839 --> 00:22:19,480 that it did in the twentieth century where you sit on a couch and you 271 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:22,720 talk to somebody and you pay them and then you know, and this kind 272 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,240 of thing hasn't That hasn't been the norm, but it's been there in different 273 00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:33,160 forms, maybe the spiritual fathers, or it's you know, maybe even in 274 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,319 going to confession or just having consultant whatever. There's there's always through of this. 275 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,640 But just you ask specifically about the last one hundred and fifty years, 276 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,640 I mean, I think that it comes out of really a whole approach again, 277 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,519 you know, kind of a scientific method type approach to trying to understand 278 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:56,759 our mental health. And I think if you look at Freud and Young and 279 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:03,599 all the early psychodynamic experts there, I mean, they were discovering some truths, 280 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:10,559 and I think the whole history of psychology is that they're discovering some truths. 281 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,680 But they're doing it with in my mind and my view with they're a 282 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,400 little bit impaired, you know, because they they're coming at it from that 283 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,799 Enlightenment mindset, the separation of science and faith, the separation of spirit and 284 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,920 body, the separate in these things, and that's ultimately unsatisfying. It will 285 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,119 answer some things, and it might provide some truths, but it won't be 286 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,079 the whole picture. And we've seen how since them, so much has changed 287 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:44,680 in terms of even just purely in a secular way. We've moved into a 288 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,799 more a lot more experiential methods of doing psychotherapy, like the ones I mentioned 289 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,359 EMDR for example. We're understanding better the body and the body and mind connection 290 00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:03,799 and that you can't ignore the body, that it's we're affected by our mind 291 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,680 affects our body, and our body effects our mind. They can't be separated. 292 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:11,599 We're also aware house spirituality is so important a few years ago, like 293 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,400 in the nineteen maybe it was in the nineteen nineties into the two thousands, 294 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,599 but mindfulness became super popular. I mean, it still is popular, and 295 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:27,640 it's basically a secularized form of Buddhism. But they found it to be extraordinarily 296 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,720 effective in helping with anxiety and depression and various things. Well, it's because 297 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,920 it was including an aspect of our of who we are, which is our 298 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,599 soul or spirit, and so but I would say to that, you know, 299 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,319 that's interesting. There might be some dangers to that as well, I 300 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:51,079 would say my own view, But we have this incredible Christian history of meditation 301 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:56,359 and of exploring our inner world and of coming to that deeper, calmer place 302 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,960 of unit, but we don't do it. A big different between Buddhists, 303 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:07,279 like Eastern religions like Buddhism and Christianity would be that their whole point is to 304 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,480 empty oneself and to lose oneself in this sort of larger Bachmann or what have 305 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:18,960 you, whereas our whole tradition is about just maintaining the integrity of who we 306 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,400 are as a person, that we're created as beautifully as image in the image 307 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:29,359 of God, and so we never lose who we are, and yet we 308 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:37,240 enter and when we enter meditation, we experience this incredible calm and peace when 309 00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:42,799 we are united with our God. So it's a personal relational experience that's powerful 310 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:49,480 and psychologically healthy, and that the whole one hundred and fifty years of psychology 311 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,440 hasn't really explored. No, it's so interesting, and you addressed this, 312 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,680 but it struck me as you were talking that the one important aspect is, 313 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:08,799 or maybe the foundation the premise here is actually a supernatural belief in the soul. 314 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:15,200 And when you take that out of the equation, you probably do discover 315 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,440 some truths and land in some important places, but what you're doing is still 316 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,799 fundamentally different in a way. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it's 317 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:30,000 a hard thing to define the soul, and so that's why we get into 318 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:33,440 some trouble a little bit, right, because of course we want to our 319 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,559 Western minds, we want to exactly quantify that, and we can't put our 320 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:41,200 minds on it. It's interesting some things that are coming up these days. 321 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,039 I'm not an expert in quantum physics. I'm not an expert. I'm nowhere 322 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:49,200 near an expert. But even when I look at those things, and we're 323 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:56,160 discovering things like about you know, consciousness and quantum theory, and we're discovering 324 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,519 that there's a lot, we're discovering deeper truths sometimes that it the ancients have 325 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:07,160 always understood, they've just didn't have those scientific language for. But it relates 326 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,000 to our spiritual who we are as spirit and what is our consciousness and what 327 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,920 is it? What is our mind, our will and our intellect and what 328 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,880 is that? How is that spiritual on a deep level. That's image because 329 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,799 it's immaterial in some sense, because we have never been able to, like, 330 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,599 we can't put the will in a in a box in the brain. 331 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:30,559 They try, but they really can't. And they haven't been able to put 332 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:36,599 a box on what really makes us alive, which is the spirit and and 333 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,160 what makes us unique as human beings too, and the ability to be so 334 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:45,880 creative, the ability to be so compassionate. Are when we're great, we're 335 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,519 great. When we're great as human beings, we're almost divine, like in 336 00:27:49,559 --> 00:27:53,400 the image of God. That's why. But when we're when we're not we 337 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,720 can be more depraved than an animal because because we have malice. But even 338 00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:00,920 just that that morality that I'm just sort of laying out there really quickly, 339 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,640 Even just the fact that there is a morality that you get and I think 340 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,200 most of our listeners, your listeners probably are getting right now. But we 341 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,920 can't put that in a scientific box, but it's it's inherent to who we 342 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,920 are. Yeah, that is very interesting. I think a lot of people 343 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:26,119 were surprised during the pandemic to see the levels and this was happening before the 344 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000 pandemic, but especially I think coming out of the pandemic, people were surprised 345 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,519 to see the levels of addiction of you know, use of antidepressants among so 346 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:38,279 many different demographics, really high, high level, high levels there at really 347 00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:41,160 high levels of people who do go to therapy. Now there's a lot of 348 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:47,920 consciousness amount mental health, and you know, I think you're offering something that's 349 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:53,400 an alternative to the kind of mainstream and we're in an era of institutional distrust. 350 00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:59,440 So just wonder if that's something is that is that a real challenge working 351 00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:06,759 in the space right now overcoming uh, you know, people's perhaps distrust in 352 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:15,799 the medical profession be therapy, see different uh treatments, all of that is 353 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:22,319 that a real hurdle that has to be overcome. Now, perhaps I haven't 354 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,960 experienced that as a counselor. I think there's just so much need that you 355 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,119 know, we're just we're just trying to meet at the demand for need that 356 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,680 you're talking about. Yeah, that is good in a sense, it's good 357 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,039 for business. But I know also that people are willing to turn yes help, 358 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,119 yes, yes, and so no, that is good. I think 359 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:52,200 younger generations have a different understanding of therapy than than people even my age and 360 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,279 older. I think they're just there's just an openness and an understanding that getting 361 00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,400 help in this in this domain is a normal part of life. It's not 362 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:06,240 a stigma thing. It's not you don't have to be delusional or psychotic to 363 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,799 just get therapy. You know, everyone kind of can use help. But 364 00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:14,960 I would say the pandemic like you were mentioning, led to a lot of 365 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,279 you know, of anxiety in the world and so on, or depression in 366 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:22,480 that And I would say a couple of things. We have a deep seated 367 00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:26,599 need for connection and we have a deep you know, to be known to 368 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:32,480 connect with other people to be in relationship. Even even if you're really you're 369 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:37,599 an introvert, you still need connections. You're just maybe not going to have 370 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:44,559 them as as many individuals or as intense or whatever. But and that was 371 00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:48,400 curtailed during the pandemic when we were forced dies a late or when we were 372 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,400 you know, not able to connect with people, or even if you think 373 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,519 about situations where like somebody was giving birth and their other family members weren't able 374 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:00,480 to connect with them, or people were dying in hospitals and people weren't able 375 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,440 to connect with their loved ones, they were forts to wait outside. It 376 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,480 was deep, deep trauma. There deep disconnections going on throughout the pandemic. 377 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:15,960 But the bigger thing also is just we seek connection in part for safety, 378 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:22,119 and we seek safety and we want it. We don't feel peace inside unless 379 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,079 we have safety, and that we're not going to always have safety every minute 380 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:29,279 of the day, but we want to have this general sense that we are 381 00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:33,920 in fact safe where we live, our community, our world, country, 382 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,279 that there's a sense of safety and connection with others. Well, we talked 383 00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:44,279 about institutional distrust, you talked about the pandemic and everything people didn't feel safe. 384 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,480 They didn't feel safe on a physical level, like am I going to 385 00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:49,359 die from this disease? Like? What do we know about it? You 386 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:53,720 know? And there's all these different kinds of competing information about it. Do 387 00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:59,599 I feel safe in medical institutions? Do I feel safe with the information? 388 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,480 Am I going to be cared for? You know? And then you've got 389 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:07,599 other things like you know, wars going on, You've got Russia, Ukraine, 390 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,559 You've got stuff that Israel and housetime. Like basically people feel like will 391 00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:15,039 feel like this world isn't very safe. And then you add to that the 392 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:19,119 pandemic where you feel like you can't even connect with the loved ones easily. 393 00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:27,519 You're isolated. That really digs at our deepest, deepest insecurities and brings us 394 00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:35,839 lots of anxiety. And what about the specific influence of social media doing something 395 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,480 that has never happened before in human history, which is allowing people in one 396 00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:44,039 part of the world, you know, not just to turn on the nightly 397 00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:49,599 news and see Dan Rather broadcasting from the middle of the Vietnam War in a 398 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,920 jungle, but actually twenty four hours a day to see the full extent of 399 00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:57,759 human suffering in every corner of the globe. You know, if you have 400 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,720 Snapchat, you can literally zoom into wars Own in any hour of the day 401 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,680 and watch the stories that have been posted there. You know, if you're 402 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,279 on social media at all, you can basically do the same thing. It's 403 00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:15,240 unusual, it seems hyper novel. It seems something that you know is exacerbating 404 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:20,319 a lot of stress and anxiety. Is there something specific about social media that's 405 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,960 that's ailing the modern man or woman? Yeah, I mean again, I 406 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,279 want to have research on it. And it hasn't been around for that long. 407 00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:34,640 But even in my own lifetime, I mean, you talked about the 408 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,039 news. You would get the paper in the morning maybe, and then you 409 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:39,839 would watch the news in the evening, and that was your contact with the 410 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:44,519 outside world and what was going on in the world in general for most people. 411 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,559 And you know, and there was a lot of time to absorb that 412 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,359 and discuss that. But you did it in a small community where you lived, 413 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,119 and you felt safe in that small community. I think that in general 414 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,519 most people and then, but in general now is social media. People are 415 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:05,519 less connected in their small communities, if they're connected at all in their small 416 00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:08,199 communities. But they're connected all over the world often, and yeah, like 417 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,480 you're mentioning, they have getting all this information and some of it is very 418 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,800 scary, is very frightening, and they're getting it at twenty four they can 419 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,159 get it twenty four seven if they want to. So there's no And I 420 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:28,599 think social media my understanding of how a lot of it works, with the 421 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,920 algorithms and so on, that when you are interested in something, they keep 422 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,039 showing you things related to that, and if you're and also if you have 423 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:40,800 a certain perspective on it, it's going to show you more things with that 424 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,480 perspective. So if you are afraid of something, you're going to get more 425 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,519 sites and more things that are going to include that fear and reinforce that fear. 426 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,800 So we're not in we're not having actually good discussions with people that we 427 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:01,320 disagree with. We're not learning about things that we won't that we're not already 428 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,360 worried about. We're learning more about the things we're already worrying about. And 429 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,199 it's all the time, and so we're not having any time to distill that, 430 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,239 we're not having much time to process that. So to me, I 431 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:21,760 can't I can't imagine that it does anything but create anxiety for most people, 432 00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:25,199 right, And of course it's also I think there's an addictive quality to the 433 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:30,239 stuff as well. So I've experienced that I sometimes do that on the news, 434 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,519 on my news feed. I sometimes I am just like I need to 435 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,159 just stop looking at this. I could just go on forever and do is 436 00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:40,159 that good for me? And what is it doing for me to be feel 437 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:44,840 like all these things are happening and I'm completely helpless to do anything about it. 438 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,239 After a while, that just creates a sense of helplessness. This creates 439 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:55,119 a sense of lack of empowerment, the sense of despair ultimately. So I'm 440 00:35:55,159 --> 00:36:00,079 not saying social media is all that. I'm just saying I think that it's 441 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:05,599 become so part of our lives and that many people are on it, like 442 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,440 what seems like twenty four to seven is just that cannot be healthy. No, 443 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:12,519 that makes a lot of sense. My last question is this is just 444 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,719 my own personal curiosity as a counselor can you, like, if you're in 445 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,440 a conversation with friends, new acquaintances, can you turn it off or are 446 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,159 you constantly you know, in your personal life, is it hard for you 447 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,840 to not sort of be seeing people or and maybe this is a good thing, 448 00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:36,559 but you know, seeing their where their where their fears may be, 449 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:38,800 where their insecurities might be. How do you handle that just on a personal 450 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,400 level. Well, I mean, the great thing about this, my whole 451 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,440 approach that's in my book and everything is about parts work, is that there's 452 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,880 a part of me. This shows up as a therapist, right And so 453 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,159 you're getting that right now, Well you're getting that, but you're also getting 454 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,840 this part of me that is where and cond just that there are a lot 455 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,000 of people listening, not just to you, and so I'm also conscious of 456 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:07,639 that. But I do think you're getting a certain part of me. If 457 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,079 you know, if I was to meet you with a bunch of friends and 458 00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:14,760 we're having a few drinks and we're just chatting or whatever, you would see 459 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,639 a different part of me. It wouldn't be It's still me, you know 460 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,920 what I mean, Like it would still be me. But but you're getting 461 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,400 a different, different part. And I think we have multiple parts and for 462 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,320 good reasons, right And you know, if you were if I'm working with 463 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,880 my kids, my kids see a dad part of me, you know, 464 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,760 So we have that we're different now. I will admit, though, I 465 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,320 can remember playing a game with somebody it was I'm really nerdy. It was 466 00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:42,440 a it was a game based on the TV show Battlestar Galactica. Where Where 467 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,480 Where the other where somebody in the group is asylum, but you don't know 468 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,480 who it is. And then and you're playing this game anyway, and I 469 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,760 was the guy across from me said something like, oh, I'm not a 470 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,320 sideline, and his eyebrow went up or he did a certain twitch in his 471 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,840 face, and right away I knew, oh, that's a tell he's lying. 472 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:02,119 So I knew he was the pylon. And I was able to like 473 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,079 take him out quickly right in the game, which I felt like I was 474 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:12,039 sort of cheating. It's like, you're probably good at poker too, Yeah, 475 00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:15,159 maybe. Yeah, if somebody is bluffy, I can sometimes tell. 476 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,039 That's so funny. Well, thank you so much. The book again is 477 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:24,000 Litany's of the Heart, Relieving post traumatic stress and calming anxiety through Healing our 478 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:30,719 Parts. Jerry Crete, just appreciate you sharing your insights with us on today's 479 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,440 edition of the show. It's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you 480 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,400 so much. Well, you've been listening to another episode of Federalist Radio Hour. 481 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,320 I'm Emily Tshenski, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be back 482 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:54,599 soon with more. Until then, see lovers of freedom and anxious for the friend right