1 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,600 Welcome to the High Strangeness Factor, and for once I am your solo host, 2 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,399 Andy Mercer. My usual co host, Steve Ward isn't in this show, 3 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,199 which is rather strange, I know, because I don't think Ste's ever 4 00:00:27,239 --> 00:00:30,160 missed a show of The High Strangers Factor. But let's say this is a 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,000 special show where I've recorded an interview a very good friend of mine regarding his 6 00:00:34,079 --> 00:00:38,200 forthcoming book. I should also point out, quite strangely, this is probably 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,520 the first show of The High Strangers Factor in which a certain American author on 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,640 ultra terrestrials and other things doesn't get mentioned. I know, but it's quite 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,560 strange. Usually his name comes and believed once or twice, but not tonight. 10 00:00:51,719 --> 00:00:55,000 Tonight is a little bit different. So here you have an interview I 11 00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:57,799 conducted with a good friend of mine, Richard Ward, regarding his book on 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,119 witchcraft. Now, yes, his name is Richard, but no relation to 13 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,519 my good friend Steve is just pure coincidence. Anyway, here we are. 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,280 This is Richard Ward talking about his book on Essex Witchcraft. Yeah, sochidn't 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,159 mind just tell us a bit about yourself in the background in the occult world. 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,760 Yes, my name is Richard Ward, I've been interested in various occult 17 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:19,519 traditions for well over thirty years now. Within the Western occult tradition, I've 18 00:01:19,519 --> 00:01:25,959 particularly looked into the works of Kenneth Grant and Alista Crowley, and my main 19 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:32,079 interests are in Haitian voodoo and afrocentric religions and their origins. And I have 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,920 an extreme interest in the folk magic of my native Essex, which I've pursued 21 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,239 for many years now. So how long have you been interested in these particular 22 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,879 areas? For well over thirty years now, since my teenage years. I 23 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:52,200 first got interested in magic and with reference to the traditions of Essex and it's 24 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,120 magic probably from about that time, because I grew up listening to sort of 25 00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:02,040 various snippets of folklore and superstition from my mother which pertained to my late grandmother. 26 00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:07,800 Okay, so it's I mean, on the surface, Asian voodoo and 27 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,240 Essex witchcraft seem absolutely more literally worlds of articles is outside the world, but 28 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,560 sort of interest ones seem very far apart. How do you bring them together 29 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,960 or do you bring them together? I keep them relatively separate, to be 30 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,159 perfectly honest. Although that said, there's not really that much difference between a 31 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:34,199 lot of the operative techniques within voodoo and within certainly witchcraft in Essex. Okay, 32 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,080 as we'll come back to that. That's an interesting point. But how 33 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:40,599 did you go from which, well, which came first, the voodoo or 34 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,360 the witchcraft? I think interest wise, they probably both came around the sort 35 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,360 of the same time, because it was my father who sort of would talk 36 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,840 to me about a lot of strange things because he realized that I was interested 37 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,800 in them, and he was the first one to actually draw my attention to 38 00:02:57,879 --> 00:03:00,080 voodoo, even though all he had done was read books on the subject from 39 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,800 the local library. And then it was only much later that I met sort 40 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,159 of various people who were initiates, and that has you know, sort of 41 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,879 spurred on my practical learning in that in that sphere almost I can get the 42 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,240 idea of both having kind of roots in sort of folk culture as a bone. 43 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,000 Yes, yeah, yeah, they are both you know, sort of 44 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,879 folk you know, sort of magical traditions. Really yes, So of course, 45 00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:25,400 the reason we're talking today is that I am about to publish as Ninth 46 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:28,919 Circle Press, your third book, which is honest, it's witchcraft. But 47 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,120 I think as it's the third book that's a provo review of the first Tear 48 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,360 books, starting back with the beginning of that book, which we actually talked 49 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,400 about about six years ago on a different show on the same network and Media 50 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:43,879 Omerica, which is pretty quite popular, particularly recording, so I bactically just 51 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,280 briefly to go back to the beginnings all of that as well. Yes, 52 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,919 certainly. Yeah, my first book was on the magic of Kennith Grant, 53 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,280 but from a specific angle of looking at it, from his interest in a 54 00:03:53,319 --> 00:04:00,719 cult fiction, particularly that penned by New England or fantasy author HP love I've 55 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,879 also had a long standing interest in and really that was down to Kenneth Grant 56 00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:09,639 when I first bought my first Kenneth Grant books in my late teens, when 57 00:04:09,639 --> 00:04:13,960 I was about nineteen twenty something like that, and he would talk about Lovecraft 58 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,199 and the parallels he saw within Lovecraft stories to the magic that he was working 59 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,639 with, and that you know, sort of led me into reading a lot 60 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:28,680 of Lovecraft fiction and getting fascinated by that, and hence my first book came 61 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,639 out in twenty sixteen by Vonzo's Publishers in America, which was a study of 62 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,319 Kenneth Grant's work, but as I say, with particular reference to his interest 63 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:43,639 and parallels within weird fiction, you know, specifically that within HP Lovecraft, 64 00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:47,319 all the works of HP Lovecraft worth see you say it's been been outpit for 65 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,160 quite a while, as I've got a copy of but just a bit of 66 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,600 a bit of future plugers. Well, we're practically working on a new edition 67 00:04:53,639 --> 00:04:58,199 of that. Yes, yeah, I'm working on a revised and considerably enlarged 68 00:04:58,319 --> 00:05:03,120 edition which will also have additional essay in it about the Economica, which is 69 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:10,120 Lovecraft's most fictional, famous fictional grimoire, which was only available as a separate 70 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:15,639 publication with the deluxe printing of the first edition of my book. But the 71 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:19,959 contract has been signed with Starfire Publishing, who obviously are reprinting all of the 72 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:27,000 works of Kenneth Grant, and that hopefully will be coming out in the we'll 73 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,959 say near future. But obviously that you know, that's all going to be 74 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,240 down to staff are publishing. I mean, they've accepted the manuscript and I'm 75 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:35,480 you know, sort of tiding it up at the moment, shall we say, 76 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,959 published Grant's work in the first place, So it is a nice time, 77 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,279 yes, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So that's the second book, 78 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,000 the second book you've had published, that's the one in the video. 79 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Yes, yes, Born of Blood and Fire, that's with Scarlett Imprints, 80 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:59,079 And that was, you know, pursuing my other interest in in voodoo, 81 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,920 particularly within the part of voodoo known as Petro, which is a particular voodoo 82 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:14,720 tradition which originated amongst the various sort of African tribes, particularly in the Congo 83 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,480 and a lot of the Euroba peoples and things like this, and how that 84 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:23,959 transferred to Haiti, and how that became a particular strain of voodoo in Haiti, 85 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,079 which was very important in Haitian history, not just in Haitian culture, 86 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,439 because it was Petro that really gave birth to the slave revolts, which actually 87 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:39,720 freed the country from their Western overlords and gave birth the first black republic in 88 00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:44,920 the Western Hemisphere the very very start of the nineteenth century, so quite significant 89 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,720 to say the least. Yes, Yeah, so that obviously and sold rather 90 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:53,360 well. So brings you to the near future, which is the book on 91 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,240 Essex Witchcraft, which obviously I'm also a former native of essexs now living in 92 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,079 the deals on the country quite happily. Yeah, I must invest. But 93 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,879 obviously it's an interest of mine as well. Happen with a book that encomvers 94 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:06,519 lots of assets of witchcraft was probably a few years ago, so I have 95 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,279 a strong interest. But how did the book come about in the first place, 96 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,519 Well, it was obviously you know, I think anybody that gets interested 97 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,120 in magic is always or they should always look into the magic of where they're 98 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,199 born, what is you know, ancestral to them. And as I say, 99 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,519 I grew up hearing, you know, sort of snippets about weird superstitions 100 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:33,199 that my grandmother used to live by. And it wasn't until much later in 101 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,279 life that I found out that she was actually a tavanne, which is a 102 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:45,439 Romany word for which, even though which kind of has negative connotations, you 103 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,560 know, she was really no more than a healer, and you know, 104 00:07:48,639 --> 00:07:53,439 sort of for the local community because doctors, you know, in the late 105 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:59,079 nineteenth and early twentieth century in sort of countryside districts, they they just weren't 106 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,160 any and those that were were prohibitively expensive because obviously we didn't have the National 107 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:05,759 Health Service back then and things like that. So you know, she was 108 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,040 in you know, great demand for her services as a healer and a midwife, 109 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:15,800 and the the book kind of came out of that, and I started 110 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:20,680 to realize my original intention was to write a book on Exits witchcraft, but 111 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,720 I then kind of realized that that didn't really do the whole magical traditions of 112 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:31,600 Essex justice, because the traditions like those you know, practiced by my maternal 113 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,799 great grandmother were actually a mixture of Christian and Pagan and I really wanted to 114 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:41,320 kind of emphasize that there's this crossover, you know, that not all witches, 115 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,480 you know, are Pagans. That's really a modern thing which is kind 116 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,600 of born out of Gerald Gardner and Wicker, that kind of divide between Christian 117 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:52,840 and Pagan. So, you know, it was you know, researching into 118 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:56,720 that the history of witchcraft in Essex and then finding all out about things like 119 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:01,919 cunning men, you know, sort of women and that sort of thing, 120 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:05,039 and all about the techniques that they would use. So it was more of 121 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:07,480 a case of Christianity in the whichovering in parallel to each other rather than blended 122 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:13,879 together. Yes, it was because you've got instances of witches, you know, 123 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,080 sort of going to church, you know, reciting things like the pattern 124 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,039 Noster, which is one of the you know sort of Catholic Christian prayers, 125 00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:26,440 you know, and using that. But then you've got certain instances where you 126 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,519 were told that the witch wouldn't use these Christian you know, prayers when they 127 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:35,240 were working with their familiar familiars, or if they did, they would say 128 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:41,039 it in Latin because the familiars and the devil you know, supposedly didn't like 129 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,000 it in English because obviously it was you know, an antithesis of that of 130 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:48,960 that side of things. But to be honest, you know that there's just 131 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:54,679 so many overlaps that I found that you can't really distinguish the two. And 132 00:09:54,759 --> 00:09:58,360 to say that, you know, sort of witches were you know, pagan 133 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,360 and you know, sort of because perhaps I should just say a little bit 134 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,879 about, you know, sort of something important that happened in history that round 135 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,879 about the sort of seventeenth century when we've got the time of you know, 136 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,960 Matthew Hopkins and the witch Finder General and lots of people being accused in country 137 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,799 districts of you know, practicing witchcraft, regardless of whether they were witches or 138 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,919 not. To be perfectly honest, but what happened was that you'd get all 139 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,480 witches or women rather would be you know, labeled as witches, regardless of 140 00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:35,279 their actual religious beliefs, whereas men would be labeled as cunning folk or cunning 141 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,879 men and would be seen as Christian and claim to draw all their power from 142 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:43,799 God and his angels and the Church, just whereas witches were supposed to draw 143 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:48,120 all their power from the devil. But that's just not correct. You know, 144 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,480 the real picture is a lot greyer than that. It's not strictly black 145 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,200 and white like that. It wasn't simply a matter of good versus evil. 146 00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:00,799 That's really, you know, quite a misnomer on modern content. As you 147 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,919 said before, in the past, nothing a person was thinking nothing going to 148 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,960 church on a Sunday, mall in clasting skills a Sunday evening. It would 149 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,519 be the same thing exactly. That's very true. And I mean I've put 150 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,519 you know, various instances in the book that you've got various cunning folk, 151 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:16,960 you know, sort of as you say, would practice magic. But you 152 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,240 know some of them were churchwardens. And there are even cases there was a 153 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:26,200 Bishop of coggishaw was actually you know, sort of accused of you know, 154 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,200 sort of conjuring spirits and you know, sort of manufacturing love potions and this 155 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,039 sort of thing, all the things that you know seen as part of magic. 156 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,000 But he was actually you know, a member of the of the clergy 157 00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:41,279 of the church, and this sort of thing, you know, wasn't uncommon 158 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:43,600 at that sort of time. But the fact that you were, you know, 159 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:46,440 a man at that time, you were kind of able to get away 160 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,559 with it, whereas obviously women unfortunately weren't. Yes, of course, class 161 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,879 may be given as well. Yes, of course I did persuading you an 162 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:58,399 interest in magic. Were perfectly fine with almost intellectual kind of magic, but 163 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,120 any one of a lower class it was involved with a frown upon least. 164 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,000 Yes, exactly. It's funny. I probably know really that I may have 165 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:11,759 mentioned other shows. But my dad's mum grandmother was the wiser woman of the 166 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:15,720 village in Wales where they're from, So there we have a kind of a 167 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,200 similar connection there. So I have a simply interesting less which were of course 168 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,600 as well. So your book starts off what sort of time frame, Well, 169 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:26,799 I've kind of started at the very beginning, really, going back to 170 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:33,759 the time when England became Christianized really and something was born which certain you know, 171 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:39,840 sort of modern Essex practitioners such as Andrew Andrew Chumley I've referred to as 172 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:43,960 the dual observance, which means, you know, sort of paying lip service 173 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:48,960 to the Christian God but maintaining a connection with you know, pagan deities. 174 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,720 And this, you know, was evidence with people like Redwoll, the last 175 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,320 of the Great East Anglian kings, who for a while maintained a pagan ultra 176 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,240 alongside that of the Christian God because it was a bit like you know, 177 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,799 sort of we're going to keep both sides happy, so to speak. Yeah. 178 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,519 Historically speaking, of course, a lot of pre Christian sites or pagan 179 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,720 sizes you might call them, were then built upon by the Christians exactly, 180 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,759 exactly, yeah, and that's why, you know, I mean you've got 181 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:20,399 places like bow shap Roading in Essex where you've got a pagan standing stone standing 182 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,879 in the churchyard because obviously it was a pagan site originally. And as you 183 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,399 quite rightly say, and you know a lot of Christian sites now and particularly 184 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,200 churches, you know, we're built on pagan sites because it was like, 185 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,200 you know, the Christian God claiming that, you know, sort of ancient 186 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,960 energy of the land. So I know it's claimed, I don't know if 187 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,159 it's ever been improved. It's been claimed that the Sas Church in Landen in 188 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,240 Essex, that's how BAZDM was a stone, some kind of standing stone on 189 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,480 that side before the jobs that built on top of it. Again, I 190 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,159 don't think they've been proven to be the case, but there is a folkloric 191 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:56,679 suggestion that that was the case as well. So there's another good example again 192 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,960 in Essex. So we go from then to I suppose all the burning times 193 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,480 of older? Yes, yes, then obviously you know sort of get we 194 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,960 get into that time because as I say, that was a very important time 195 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,519 in Essex magic, because you've got this divergence where you'd get a new breed 196 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:22,200 of cunning folk coming up who profess to say, draw you know, all 197 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,840 of their power from God and his angels, and they would get rid of 198 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,120 the witches by performing anti curses against the witches, you know, particularly you 199 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,919 know, sort of witch bottles and things like that. And this is something 200 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,559 which really in Essex and a lot of other country you know, sort of 201 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,480 more you know, sort of country side parishes went on well into you know, 202 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:48,960 the late nineteenth and even in parts the early twentieth century where you'd got 203 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,320 this continued belief in witchcraft. So therefore there was still a need for cunning 204 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,840 folks supposedly to combat these witches. Interestingly, indeed, of course there is 205 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,399 the move us to more kinds of Victorian age. There was a couple of 206 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:09,200 characters which we cannot avoid mentioning. Is the very very significant one for reality 207 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,679 one for more for mythical reasons of course, as we've discussed in the past, 208 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,840 But you can't avoid not talking about, first and foremost the myth, 209 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,320 shall we say, the myth of certain George picking Gill. This is may 210 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:24,639 not be familiar with the name, but we are very familiar. But perhaps 211 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:26,840 you want to tell them, yes, well, I mean George Pickeinill, 212 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:31,480 according to a lot of books you might read these days, was probably one 213 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,159 of the most famous cunning men in England. But the problem is that accounts 214 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,679 of George Pickeinill being a cunning man and aura which only really started with the 215 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:50,240 testimony of one person, and that was a certain Lilian Garner who was born 216 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Lillian Higbee, and she was a Canwdon, resident of Dutch descent and supposedly 217 00:15:54,879 --> 00:16:00,960 an adept in white magic. When Eric Maple, the Essex folkalist Essex amateur 218 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:07,440 folklorist who wrote articles for Folklore Magazine and subsequently put a lot of his Essex 219 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:14,759 witchcraft material into a book called The Dark World of Witches, and Lillian Higbee 220 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,320 or Lillian Garner as her married name, she was known locally as Granny Ganner 221 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:22,840 because she was obviously quite old by then, talked to Eric Maple about this 222 00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:30,240 supposed witch called George Pickingill and or Pickingale was you know, he goes under 223 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:33,039 alternative names. And here comes another part of the problem with this is that 224 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:37,879 people are a bit unsure whether these things, you know, are actually beauty 225 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,399 to George Pickinghill himself, George picking Neil junior, his son, or you 226 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,600 know. And because he went under these various names, he's been difficult to 227 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:49,799 trace. But as I say, the problem with the picking and material is 228 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:57,519 that it only really started with Lillian Garner. And if George Pickingil was this 229 00:16:57,639 --> 00:17:04,240 great cunning man, why wasn't anything reported of him to do with witchcraft or 230 00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:10,119 the cunning craft before before this? Because it wasn't like this was the first 231 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:17,119 time that folklorist had gone to Canwden and looked into its witchcraft traditions. You've 232 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,319 got you know, lots of stuff, you know, pre Maple, even 233 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,759 going back to Philip Benton's History of the roch Had hundred, which was written 234 00:17:23,759 --> 00:17:27,039 in them, you know, sort of early to mid nineteenth century, and 235 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:32,400 he talks about, you know, legends of witches in Canwdon, but George 236 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,160 Picking is not mentioned. He's also not mentioned in any other folkloric books, 237 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,039 the one that we've both talked about in the past, Charlotte Mason's ESSEXIX Forrests 238 00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:48,000 and Folklore, He's not mentioned in that. He's not mentioned in bee House 239 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,000 article for the that that she wrote. I think it was for the Times 240 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:56,759 magazine, and there was another art there was another article also written you know 241 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:03,279 before Maple went to Canwden. One of these mentioned Pickinill at all. Now 242 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,119 this is not to say that Pickanill wasn't mentioned before Maple, because he was 243 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:11,680 because he was quite famous as the oldest man in the village and therefore there 244 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:18,640 are various news reporters that went down to interviewing because of this. But a 245 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,640 he faked his age a lot he was actually, you know, sort of 246 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,680 supposedly something like about one hundred and six when he died, and there's notices 247 00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:32,400 by the vicar changing the date first of all, I think, to one 248 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:34,319 hundred and three, and then it was changed back to ninety three, which 249 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:40,279 is his true age in death, as he's now accepted. But he was 250 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,319 famous for being the most oldest man in England at one time. But that 251 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,920 was all he was famous for. So if he was a great cunning man, 252 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,519 I can't see that, you know, sort of news of that would 253 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:57,400 have escaped these news reports. How that's simple but important. What we missed 254 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,759 off his biography, as it were, that leaves us wondering, as we've 255 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:04,759 seen in many occasions, of what's going on here. Of course, we 256 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:10,160 have a very famous professor who also seems to hear to the picking girls story. 257 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,880 But I think you should tell the story about when he went to suppose 258 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,200 you've interviewed these people was rather amusing. Well, yes, I mean, 259 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,200 you know, I mean, the whole picking all legend really has been given 260 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:22,559 credence by you know, sort of modern academics, you know, sort of 261 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:30,400 professor Ronald Hutton for example, who wait, sometime in the nineteen sixties to 262 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,599 you know, sort of an interview to Guy Arden, who claimed that you 263 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,519 know, he was because he was very old at the time, and he 264 00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:40,519 claimed to have known George Pickingill towards the end of his life. But all 265 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:47,000 that he really recounted was tales of horsemanship. And if you read the books 266 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:51,559 of George you were Evans, who was a great folklorist who recorded a lot 267 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,119 to do with East Anglian traditions. He showed that traditions of horsemanship which were 268 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,920 derived from you know, probably the Roman traditions a lot of the time, 269 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,720 you know, we're still prevalent, you know, through to the mid twentieth 270 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:08,359 century in parts of Suffolk, which he wrote about. So the problem there 271 00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:14,880 is that that's the only new evidence post you know, sort of maple that 272 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,720 was able to add. And in my humble opinion, that does not in 273 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,599 any way confirm him as a cunning man, because, as I say, 274 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:26,480 if you read the works of Georgia Evans, you'll find that lots of country 275 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,200 folk possess some knowledge of this, But that doesn't in any way imply they 276 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,000 were, you know, a cunning man or even a regular practitioner of magic. 277 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:37,960 He's also worth pointing out, how does ronan to see this guy? 278 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,480 Well, I mean, if we're to believe you know, the online you 279 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:45,759 know sort of ages that are put on things like Wikipedia and things like this, 280 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,160 that he would have only been in his very very early teens. So 281 00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:56,119 I'm not saying that, you know, sort of he was hoodwinked, but 282 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:03,160 I have I can't help enter attain the possibility that if you're a young teenager 283 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,799 going and seeking out the locals, you know, for salacious stories on witchcraft, 284 00:21:07,839 --> 00:21:12,480 that they might have decided to you know, beefing up a little bit, 285 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:17,599 shall we say, and embellish the truth. And this is something also 286 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:22,920 that that's been entertained by various other people that have looked at the picking all 287 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,680 legend they you know, and Canwden basically got a sort of a bit of 288 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:33,720 a reputation. There's a letter actually, which I've quoted in the book from 289 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,480 a woman called Prudence Jones, who was a pagan and wrote a lot of 290 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:40,119 you know, sort of books on wicker and things. In her opinion was 291 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:44,319 that Canwton was a village of hoaxes. And you know, that might be 292 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,400 a bit strong, but I can see where she's coming from, because I 293 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,400 think, you know, they tried to play upon the legend, and I 294 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,160 can see why they might want to pick George Pickinnill as you know, the 295 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,240 sort of front man if you like, for you know, Canuden witchcraft because 296 00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:03,160 he was the village's most famous resident. As I say, only because he 297 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,359 was the oldest man in the village. Just not for any supernatural reason. 298 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,440 Although as we also know, a lot of people, you know, back 299 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,680 in past times, if they lived, you know, to a ripe old 300 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,440 age, it was sometimes attributed to supernatural means. So long, well, 301 00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:23,319 yeah, you get you know, another you know example which I've quoted in 302 00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:30,400 the book, which is, you know Mary Ellis who is buried in Saint 303 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,039 Clement's Church in leon Cea. She was a reputed witch, but she was 304 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,720 no witch. All she did really was manufacture a few herbal remedies to give 305 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:42,119 to the poor at a time when you know, which is which is when 306 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,839 doctors were you know, sort of prohibitively expensive. So she was labeled a 307 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,759 witch because she died at the Grand old Age or something like about one hundred 308 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:56,440 and nineteen or something like that, or potions obvious work, yes, and 309 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,680 then of course there was another particular what she should mention that really does beef 310 00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:03,319 up the story of George being beyond belief. This is the picking your papers, 311 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,359 of course, which is there's must of work affections each We love craft 312 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,880 really, but he's become quite popular, yes, yeah, I mean it 313 00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:15,720 really. It started off with letters which were first of all published in the 314 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,680 Wiccan Newsletter, and as I say, this was ented by Prudence Jones. 315 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,839 But and then came out in a few small booklets I think in the early 316 00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:30,599 you know, nineteen eighties, talking how George Pickinhill was not just a local 317 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:37,079 village cunning man, but that he'd met Aleister Crowley, he'd been partly responsible 318 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,440 for penning rituals used by the Hametic Order of the Golden Dawn in collusion with 319 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:47,000 Alista Crowley, and that you know Crowley and people, you know, he 320 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:49,839 was linked with Gerald Gardner and these people inducted into his covens, and he 321 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,880 supposedly had several covens throughout East Anglia. And I should point out that you 322 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,319 know the academics, you know, Professor Ronald Hutton, you know, and 323 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,880 in his stead, you know sort of people like Owen Davis who written, 324 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,839 you know, some great books on magic and witchcraft, but they still accept 325 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,000 Maple's word that he was a small town, you know, sort of cunning 326 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,960 person, as I say, you know, I can't even see the evidence 327 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,759 for that, but certainly, you know, this person, you know, 328 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:23,559 who eventually was found out to be a guy called Bill Liddle, although I 329 00:24:23,559 --> 00:24:27,640 think his real name was actually or his birth name was something like Graham Irwin 330 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,960 Moss. I think I'd have to check that, but you know, he 331 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,759 was, you know, sort of lived or his family lived at some point 332 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:40,519 in Canude, and then he moved out to Australia. But you know, 333 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:45,599 he just penned all these you know, sort of outlandish claims really, and 334 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,160 this was one of the reasons that actually Prudence Joe's decided to stop, you 335 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,960 know sort of. She said, you know, in the introduction to one 336 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,480 of his books, I think was George picking on the Roots of East England 337 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,240 Witchcraft or something like that. I forget the exact title, but in the 338 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:03,640 introduction to the book, she said, We've tried checking, you know, 339 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,839 all of the references that Leu has given for the you know, the information 340 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,359 that he's put in this book, and we can't find any of them, 341 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,559 and basically it's because they don't exist alarm bells and he can't find the source 342 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,079 I suppose that you mentioned. But unfortunately, a large the army last and 343 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,559 I people still believe the picking up it was to be accurate, which is 344 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:26,720 rather saying really but as often belief sometimes Trump's fact, which is a real 345 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,000 show. Well, this is true, and it didn't help really that Mike 346 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:33,799 Howard, you know, who's you know, a great champion of traditional witchcraft, 347 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,519 published The Cauldron magazine you know for many years, which is you know, 348 00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:41,920 fantastic magazine. Unfortunate he is no longer with us, and you know, 349 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,799 but I had various conversations with him during his lifetime about picking hire and 350 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,680 unfortunately, you know, we just agreed to disagree on that. You know, 351 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:56,240 he was still willing to accept that, you know, sort of the 352 00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:02,240 elders that informed or supposedly informed you know, Moss or Bill Little as he's 353 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,200 more popularly known, did exist and they were correcting what they said. You 354 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,839 know, but if there is any truth in those rumors, they could have 355 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,839 been the same people, you know, people like Lillian Garner and you know 356 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,279 sort of the other people living in Canute at the time who gave birth to 357 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:23,880 the original picking your legend and just decided, you know, we'll beef it 358 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,240 up a bit. Let's move from I said there's now myth to fact. 359 00:26:29,759 --> 00:26:33,839 There is or was undoubtedly a very important coming man who definitely did live in 360 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,039 ethics and he was a going man, and that is James Cunning Mrrell. 361 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,759 Yes, I mean James Murrell. I mean, you know, and we 362 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,880 have contemporary ports, you know, unlike picking here, we have contemporary ports 363 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:52,440 of James Murrall's magic in Philip Benton's History of the Rochford Hundred, which is 364 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,119 first published are thinking about the eighteen sixties, and he actually knew Mrrell and 365 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,759 actually even you know, up until Benton's death actually possessed certain of Murrell's books 366 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:07,119 and phrenologically you know, decorated skulls and heads and you know, prenological heads 367 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,920 and things like this, which Murrell actually used. Although he was very very 368 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,799 scathing and very very skeptical about Murrell's abilities, he did at least, you 369 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:21,240 know, sort of accurately pought you know, what he did. And there's 370 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:25,799 no doubt that Murrell was, you know, a proper cunning man. And 371 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,720 you know, as I've argued before, you know, back in a series 372 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,519 of articles I did for Mike Howard's Cauldron magazine back in I think it was 373 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:40,480 twenty fourteen, that James Murrell was the last of the great Essex cunning folk. 374 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:45,920 And the strange thing is he would have you know sort of he did 375 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,480 actually go to Canwdon because he had a lot of ties with qu not because 376 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,119 I think it was his daughter married Daniel Whitwell, a Canwdon resident, and 377 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:03,359 they lived in Canwden from that time on, so Murrell was a regular visitor 378 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:07,680 to Canwdon. And it's one quite you know, sort of amusing story that 379 00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:15,200 doesn't involve Picking Hill, but of Murrell being asked the villager's petition in the 380 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:22,319 Reverend Atkinson in Canwton to get Murrell in to actually whistle up the witches and 381 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,880 call them all out. But Atkinson supposedly refused this request because he knew that 382 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:33,920 his wife would be amongst them, so that didn't happen. But the interesting 383 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,960 thing is that if you look at the things that have now been attributed to 384 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Picking Hill, such the ability to whistle up witches, wart charming, and 385 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,880 several other things, you know, sort of flying around on a hurdle and 386 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,480 a bruised it. These are all things that were previously attributed to Murrell and 387 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:57,000 seem to have been sort of grafted onto the pickinill legend in order to give 388 00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:02,279 it some kind of gravitas. Mason. What we mentioned just now in the 389 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:04,680 nineteen twenties is a real kind of proof of that, because some of the 390 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:10,240 things that are written that were clear done that by Murrell are also because things 391 00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:15,279 said the picking gilt exactly. The transition has taken transitional that's taking place to 392 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,000 the copy on the other. So, I mean both of us have talked 393 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:21,519 about this another other cases. Both I've talk about other shows as well. 394 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:23,559 This whole point of Murrale is the real kind of Big Girls, just a 395 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:26,640 bit of a myth and legends. So that's the important material. That one 396 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,559 of the reasons why I wanted to publish it and as Ninth Circle Press my 397 00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:33,279 publishing company, was to get that out there that we have got very very 398 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:37,319 good evidence to say that Pick and Guilt, wherever he might have been, 399 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:41,559 the old Man or whatever, may have some links possibly, although there's nothing 400 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:44,720 to prove it at all. It was kind of moral. James Murell was 401 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:47,960 the man. He was the real Yeah exactly. I mean, as I 402 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:49,680 say, you know you're talking about evidence. You know, you've got plenty 403 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,440 of evidence of Morral, but unfortunately when you look at picking Ill, there 404 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,319 is just no evidence prior to to Eric Maple's, you know, talking to 405 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,480 Lillian Gharana and if they that was. And I also find it quite interesting 406 00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:06,319 that in the wake of Maple, I think it was in about the early 407 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:11,000 or very nineteen sixty or very early nineteen sixties, there was still an interest 408 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:18,279 in witchcraft in Essex and a reporter for a magazine called Q went out to 409 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,680 Canewdon and again who did you meet up with in the local pub? Lily 410 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,640 and Ghana, who woud obviously informed Maple. So you would think that you 411 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,680 know, he would have got you know, information on Pickingill from her, 412 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:36,759 but no, she didn't mention Pickingill at all in the article. He gets 413 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,079 no mention at all. But you get mentioned of a guy called Bibby Kemp, 414 00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:45,000 who again was touted as some kind of spiritual air almost to George Pickinhill 415 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:51,240 without mentioning picking Hill, with even a very very similar picture to the one 416 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,200 used of which is supposedly George Pickinhill, you know, And I say supposedly 417 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,240 because nobody's ever approved it, and there is only one picture out there. 418 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,200 As you know, I'm sure your listeners can go on the internet and they 419 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,759 will only find the one picture of picking Hill, Yeah, exactly, that 420 00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:11,079 one outside his cottage, you know, which unfortunately is sadly is no longer 421 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:15,599 there. It's demolished some years ago. But Bibby Kemp, you know, 422 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:18,519 with the same sort of you know, he's got a hat on, same 423 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,519 sort of you know, menacing sort of look, and you think, yeah, 424 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,200 again, you know, it's like Lillian Garner's trying to taunt this guy's 425 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,720 the new George Pickenhill, really, you know, and again attributing you know, 426 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,720 sort of various curses to Bibby Kemp, you know, saying yes, 427 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,240 he was also a watch armor. He also you know, flew around the 428 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:41,359 village on a hurdle and scared the children during the nineteen thirties and things like 429 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,839 this. So you think you can see the continuity of the stories. That's 430 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,319 the thing, of course, because back in sort of the time frame of 431 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:52,359 these writers in nineteen sixties, this of us seeing slacious nonsense. Anyways, 432 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:55,759 suppose you no one really cared about the truth of what was going on, 433 00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:00,359 say, more modern sort of researchs and historians want to know more accurate what's 434 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:02,799 happening. So the idea of picking Gilder's story began to just grow bigger and 435 00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:07,400 bigger. No one really cared it was that important, But to us it's 436 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,960 a little more important now. But's toy. It's so if you can move 437 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,200 on beyond sort of those guys to the twentieth century stuff about us, it's 438 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,039 what's the name that stand out for you? Well, I mean, if 439 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:22,480 you want to sort of pull it forward a bit too recent times, then 440 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,440 obviously Andrew Chumley has to be you know, mentioned who I've treated in the 441 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,359 book, because Andrew was, you know, a very maverick figure, you 442 00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:35,519 know, in the magical community, you know, sort of a very solitary 443 00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:37,759 figure. You know, didn't really sort of you know, mix a lot, 444 00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:43,319 and you know, brought out several books, you know, the Azueisha, 445 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,400 which first came out in nineteen ninety two, which is you know, 446 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:51,160 his own personal grimoire, which sort of mixed various you know, sort of 447 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,400 traditions, you know, bits of Austin Osman Spare and you know, sort 448 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,799 of bits of various sort of traditions. But then I really want to come 449 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,759 up onto the groom rather golden toad which you know, I think it came 450 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:09,680 out in two thousand or something like that, which Andrew performed, you know, 451 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,519 the toadbone, right or a version of it, which is a you 452 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,079 know, particular right within East Anglian, you know, and Essex witchcraft, 453 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:24,400 which I've treated the book it is it is generalist, I think toadbones. 454 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,279 Who cares about those? But we know there's a lot more to them, 455 00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:31,960 a small charm exactly, yes, Yeah, And you know and Andrew, 456 00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:37,960 you know, sort of performed a version of that particular right and he actually 457 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:42,119 saw you know him, and you know sort of the members of his you 458 00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:45,240 know particular you know, the uni members of his order, the Cult Sabatai 459 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:51,720 as the natural you know, sort of inheritance of the cunning craft of Essex, 460 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:53,079 you know, all the currenters. He termed it, which is a 461 00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:59,000 term which comes from Eric Maple. Unfortunately I can't trace that term beyond Maple, 462 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480 so I can't you know, really say that it's something that has any 463 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:07,960 great antiquity. But yes, yeah, I mean yeah Maple, you know, 464 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:12,039 I mean, very interesting figure and very important in the history of Essex 465 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,639 witchcraft and folklore. But I think, you know, with some of what 466 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,599 he wrote, you have to take it with a little bit of a pinch 467 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:22,840 of salt. But yes, of course jemy m Zebud claimed they have certain 468 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,800 antecedents in the past, that this stuff wasn't out of the bluly he was 469 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,280 part of a continuing line as well, of course, yes, although nothing 470 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:36,840 to do with that Essex specifically. I think he claimed his lineages came from 471 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:42,519 two specific lineages, one for Oxfordshire, which supposedly dated back to around about 472 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,960 sort of the nineteen forty something like that, and another one which came from 473 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,400 West or Mid Wales I think, which was a matriarchal you know sort of 474 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,840 lineage. But unfortunately, we don't have any specific details of these lineages, 475 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,440 you know, we can only take them, you know, on you know, 476 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:04,800 sort of you know, sort of hearsay if you like. You know, 477 00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:07,000 we don't really have any details of those. I mean, it was 478 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,519 a guy called James mcness who actually introduced Chumnley certainly to the oxyd share one 479 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:16,480 I think. So, you know, Andrew only had really Nessi's claim. 480 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,039 You know, he never actually you know, sort of met anybody that was 481 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:23,719 in these covens in the nineteen forties or anything. So you know, but 482 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:34,320 the problem is we have so many modern traditions claiming to be traditional witchcraft, 483 00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:39,880 which really only came about as a counter balance to Gardener's Wicker, which they 484 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:46,239 didn't agree with. And really going back to the whole Little Material, you 485 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,119 know, as I've written in the book, you know, you can see 486 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,400 why this stuff came out because, as Little himself admitted, you know, 487 00:35:54,119 --> 00:36:00,360 his elders wanted to record their tradition as a counterbalance against what they really guarded. 488 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,599 Does the heresy of Garden's wicker? Yeah, yes, I've said this 489 00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:07,119 before in other shows where you as you've got three threads, you've got the 490 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:12,400 wicker, you've got traditional witchcraft, which is kind of borrowing from genuine historic 491 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,519 material, but then kind of synthesize into a traditional quote traditional witchcraft, and 492 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,320 you've got stuff like actual old spells you can actually find in old books, 493 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,639 like the phocolosoph I used in the past. Is there anything more sort of 494 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:25,559 practically in your book as well as a spell work. Oh yes, yeah, 495 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:29,440 I mean that, you know, I've gone into obviously the various you 496 00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:32,880 know sort of curses anti curses. You know, talked about you know the 497 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,360 toadbone right, which you know, very very important and you know certainly does 498 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,239 have you know, considerable antiquity because you can, you know, look back 499 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,280 in history and you know, people like Reginald Scott in the sixteenth century wrote 500 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,760 about you know, the toadbone right, and it's you know, interesting to 501 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,159 look how it's changed slightly over the years as it's been recorded. And then 502 00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:57,400 if you bring it up to date with the books of Georgia at Evans, 503 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,159 which are written in sort of like the nineteen fifties and nineteen these he records 504 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,920 various you know instances of this right being performed in East England. There's a 505 00:37:05,559 --> 00:37:07,360 book on poaching which I've actually got a copy of, I forget the name 506 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:13,239 of it now goes by travels by Night. I think it's called something on 507 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,280 those lines that brief events it as well. So I found I was quite 508 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,920 fascinating and also think clearly the Elder in Roman Times wrote about a version of 509 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,119 it. I'm sure that somewhere, yes, that that that is correct. 510 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,400 I mean, you know, I think it was because Andrew Chumley, as 511 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,760 well as performing you know, the right itself, also wrote his own kind 512 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,559 of history of you know, sort of toad magic and he does obviously, 513 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,159 you know, show that, you know, Yes, there are very variations 514 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,400 in plenty, and then if you want to take it forward, there's also 515 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:45,960 variations in Agrippa, and then variations in Scotland, so so on and so 516 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:52,480 forth. So it's something which has been recorded throughout history really since you know, 517 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,119 very very early times, but seems to have changed slightly, you know. 518 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,559 I mean, I won't go into all the full details of the change 519 00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:04,199 the history changes here people can read that in the book, but absolutely so 520 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,119 other areas you want to talk about the book covers. I suppose one of 521 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:12,199 the main you know, sort of areas you know, sort of as we 522 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,800 talked about coming up to modern times the Roman e or traveler you know, 523 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,840 sort of aspects of magic, which really kind of as Maple when I think 524 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:30,159 quite correctly noted in this, you know instance, kind of revitalized you know, 525 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:36,239 sort of magical traditions in particularly more remote farming communities, because during the 526 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,480 eighteen seventies you've got a lot of Romani travelers came down to Essex from where 527 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,039 they've been, you know, sort of camping out on the borders of Epping 528 00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:46,880 and Epping Forest. And this was also a time when you've got a lot 529 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,440 of others coming down from Suffolca and other parts of the country, which is 530 00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:54,400 how you know, my great maternal great grandmother ended up here. And I 531 00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:59,599 mean originally you know, I mean she was Emma Taylor. And even if 532 00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:02,280 you go to tip Tree today, you know, because Tuddick, where she 533 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,400 lived, is like a you know, sort of little hamlet outside of Tiptree, 534 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,920 you know, sort of remote farming community, and even today the Tailors 535 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,480 and the Andersons are the two biggest Romany families in the area, you know, 536 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,079 and they you know, from from that time that's when they first moved 537 00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:21,360 down. So I think, you know, it's quite you know. One 538 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,039 of the important things in the book for me was to show how, you 539 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:28,320 know, sort of those traditions of you know, the Romanese you know, 540 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,559 sort of put a new injection into you know, sort of Essex magic and 541 00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:37,280 and it kind of revitalized it to the point where you've even got sort of 542 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,119 various country Parsons, you know, during the nineteen thirties writing in church newsletters. 543 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,239 Of quote one instance in the book that you know, I forget the 544 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,800 exact quote, it's something like, you know, sort of there is still 545 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,199 you know, a dark paganism within the country communities and the resistance to Christianity, 546 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:58,199 which there were. And the reason for this is is because all of 547 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,800 this main thrust you know, magic in Essex was to do with agriculture, 548 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,519 and again, you know sort of that dates back to the whole sort of 549 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:13,400 beliefs in certain pagan gods you know, sort of thraw wode In and various 550 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,840 others, you know, that sort of Anglo Saxon gods introduced from you know, 551 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:22,039 Scandinavia or you know, or potentially Germany. It's a little bit you 552 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:25,800 know, sort of of a gray area exactly where they you know. Again, 553 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,239 it's something I've gone into in the book, which people can read in 554 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,480 more detail there if they want to. But I think it was, you 555 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:37,199 know, sort of important to sort of you know, show you know, 556 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,360 sort of why these traditions survived in agricultural areas, and you know, and 557 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,199 that's how kind of you know, the devil, you know, among the 558 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,800 country folk, you know, was far different to the devil of Christianity, 559 00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:54,800 you know. And again I've gone into the book into the various rights and 560 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,840 traditions associated with him and things like that, you know, and how you 561 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:05,079 know you could show that basis in agricultural heritage. Well excellent. So that's 562 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,280 give us a lot of information about your book, which I shall give the 563 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:12,280 other information will be published very soon. It should be out in June from 564 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,119 Ninth Circle Press. That's my publishing company, night Saga Press dot com as 565 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:20,199 the website or dot code at uki in both domain names. And what's the 566 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,760 full title TwixT God and the Devil, which goes back to it said at 567 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,679 the beginning the idea of the dual observance. You can be a Christian at 568 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,480 Sunday church in the morning and then practice your magic and Sunday evening and actually 569 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,000 the problem between the two. Well, thank you very much Richard for joining 570 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,760 me to this evening on a extra special Highest strangeres Factor show which will be 571 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,360 going out very soon, and i'd say that bok will be available from June. 572 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,199 There will be a standard edition hardback which is number but not signed, 573 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,239 as a special edition which is numbered and signed. At least there's a signed 574 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,840 book Plato gives of it. That's a leather bound in a slipcase. It's 575 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,079 four leather, but it's still very good quality. And both will be available 576 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:04,639 in June later this month, hopefully so audio a copy from again Ninth Circlepress 577 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,599 dot co dot UK or Ninth Circlepress dot com. I'll put a leak actually 578 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,559 in the description of where the website is and you can order from there. 579 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,440 And so thank you very much for thank you and excellent, thank you for 580 00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:20,480 listening to the interview. I hope you've had it interesting. We were back 581 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,360 very soon, of course, with Steve myself together hosting The High Strangers Factor. 582 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,559 Until then, I live for now.