Welcome to the High Strangeness Factor, and for once I am your solo host,
Andy Mercer. My usual co host, Steve Ward isn't in this show,
which is rather strange, I know, because I don't think Ste's ever
missed a show of The High Strangers Factor. But let's say this is a
special show where I've recorded an interview a very good friend of mine regarding his
forthcoming book. I should also point out, quite strangely, this is probably
the first show of The High Strangers Factor in which a certain American author on
ultra terrestrials and other things doesn't get mentioned. I know, but it's quite
strange. Usually his name comes and believed once or twice, but not tonight.
Tonight is a little bit different. So here you have an interview I
conducted with a good friend of mine, Richard Ward, regarding his book on
witchcraft. Now, yes, his name is Richard, but no relation to
my good friend Steve is just pure coincidence. Anyway, here we are.
This is Richard Ward talking about his book on Essex Witchcraft. Yeah, sochidn't
mind just tell us a bit about yourself in the background in the occult world.
Yes, my name is Richard Ward, I've been interested in various occult
traditions for well over thirty years now. Within the Western occult tradition, I've
particularly looked into the works of Kenneth Grant and Alista Crowley, and my main
interests are in Haitian voodoo and afrocentric religions and their origins. And I have
an extreme interest in the folk magic of my native Essex, which I've pursued
for many years now. So how long have you been interested in these particular
areas? For well over thirty years now, since my teenage years. I
first got interested in magic and with reference to the traditions of Essex and it's
magic probably from about that time, because I grew up listening to sort of
various snippets of folklore and superstition from my mother which pertained to my late grandmother.
Okay, so it's I mean, on the surface, Asian voodoo and
Essex witchcraft seem absolutely more literally worlds of articles is outside the world, but
sort of interest ones seem very far apart. How do you bring them together
or do you bring them together? I keep them relatively separate, to be
perfectly honest. Although that said, there's not really that much difference between a
lot of the operative techniques within voodoo and within certainly witchcraft in Essex. Okay,
as we'll come back to that. That's an interesting point. But how
did you go from which, well, which came first, the voodoo or
the witchcraft? I think interest wise, they probably both came around the sort
of the same time, because it was my father who sort of would talk
to me about a lot of strange things because he realized that I was interested
in them, and he was the first one to actually draw my attention to
voodoo, even though all he had done was read books on the subject from
the local library. And then it was only much later that I met sort
of various people who were initiates, and that has you know, sort of
spurred on my practical learning in that in that sphere almost I can get the
idea of both having kind of roots in sort of folk culture as a bone.
Yes, yeah, yeah, they are both you know, sort of
folk you know, sort of magical traditions. Really yes, So of course,
the reason we're talking today is that I am about to publish as Ninth
Circle Press, your third book, which is honest, it's witchcraft. But
I think as it's the third book that's a provo review of the first Tear
books, starting back with the beginning of that book, which we actually talked
about about six years ago on a different show on the same network and Media
Omerica, which is pretty quite popular, particularly recording, so I bactically just
briefly to go back to the beginnings all of that as well. Yes,
certainly. Yeah, my first book was on the magic of Kennith Grant,
but from a specific angle of looking at it, from his interest in a
cult fiction, particularly that penned by New England or fantasy author HP love I've
also had a long standing interest in and really that was down to Kenneth Grant
when I first bought my first Kenneth Grant books in my late teens, when
I was about nineteen twenty something like that, and he would talk about Lovecraft
and the parallels he saw within Lovecraft stories to the magic that he was working
with, and that you know, sort of led me into reading a lot
of Lovecraft fiction and getting fascinated by that, and hence my first book came
out in twenty sixteen by Vonzo's Publishers in America, which was a study of
Kenneth Grant's work, but as I say, with particular reference to his interest
and parallels within weird fiction, you know, specifically that within HP Lovecraft,
all the works of HP Lovecraft worth see you say it's been been outpit for
quite a while, as I've got a copy of but just a bit of
a bit of future plugers. Well, we're practically working on a new edition
of that. Yes, yeah, I'm working on a revised and considerably enlarged
edition which will also have additional essay in it about the Economica, which is
Lovecraft's most fictional, famous fictional grimoire, which was only available as a separate
publication with the deluxe printing of the first edition of my book. But the
contract has been signed with Starfire Publishing, who obviously are reprinting all of the
works of Kenneth Grant, and that hopefully will be coming out in the we'll
say near future. But obviously that you know, that's all going to be
down to staff are publishing. I mean, they've accepted the manuscript and I'm
you know, sort of tiding it up at the moment, shall we say,
published Grant's work in the first place, So it is a nice time,
yes, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So that's the second book,
the second book you've had published, that's the one in the video.
Yes, yes, Born of Blood and Fire, that's with Scarlett Imprints,
And that was, you know, pursuing my other interest in in voodoo,
particularly within the part of voodoo known as Petro, which is a particular voodoo
tradition which originated amongst the various sort of African tribes, particularly in the Congo
and a lot of the Euroba peoples and things like this, and how that
transferred to Haiti, and how that became a particular strain of voodoo in Haiti,
which was very important in Haitian history, not just in Haitian culture,
because it was Petro that really gave birth to the slave revolts, which actually
freed the country from their Western overlords and gave birth the first black republic in
the Western Hemisphere the very very start of the nineteenth century, so quite significant
to say the least. Yes, Yeah, so that obviously and sold rather
well. So brings you to the near future, which is the book on
Essex Witchcraft, which obviously I'm also a former native of essexs now living in
the deals on the country quite happily. Yeah, I must invest. But
obviously it's an interest of mine as well. Happen with a book that encomvers
lots of assets of witchcraft was probably a few years ago, so I have
a strong interest. But how did the book come about in the first place,
Well, it was obviously you know, I think anybody that gets interested
in magic is always or they should always look into the magic of where they're
born, what is you know, ancestral to them. And as I say,
I grew up hearing, you know, sort of snippets about weird superstitions
that my grandmother used to live by. And it wasn't until much later in
life that I found out that she was actually a tavanne, which is a
Romany word for which, even though which kind of has negative connotations, you
know, she was really no more than a healer, and you know,
sort of for the local community because doctors, you know, in the late
nineteenth and early twentieth century in sort of countryside districts, they they just weren't
any and those that were were prohibitively expensive because obviously we didn't have the National
Health Service back then and things like that. So you know, she was
in you know, great demand for her services as a healer and a midwife,
and the the book kind of came out of that, and I started
to realize my original intention was to write a book on Exits witchcraft, but
I then kind of realized that that didn't really do the whole magical traditions of
Essex justice, because the traditions like those you know, practiced by my maternal
great grandmother were actually a mixture of Christian and Pagan and I really wanted to
kind of emphasize that there's this crossover, you know, that not all witches,
you know, are Pagans. That's really a modern thing which is kind
of born out of Gerald Gardner and Wicker, that kind of divide between Christian
and Pagan. So, you know, it was you know, researching into
that the history of witchcraft in Essex and then finding all out about things like
cunning men, you know, sort of women and that sort of thing,
and all about the techniques that they would use. So it was more of
a case of Christianity in the whichovering in parallel to each other rather than blended
together. Yes, it was because you've got instances of witches, you know,
sort of going to church, you know, reciting things like the pattern
Noster, which is one of the you know sort of Catholic Christian prayers,
you know, and using that. But then you've got certain instances where you
were told that the witch wouldn't use these Christian you know, prayers when they
were working with their familiar familiars, or if they did, they would say
it in Latin because the familiars and the devil you know, supposedly didn't like
it in English because obviously it was you know, an antithesis of that of
that side of things. But to be honest, you know that there's just
so many overlaps that I found that you can't really distinguish the two. And
to say that, you know, sort of witches were you know, pagan
and you know, sort of because perhaps I should just say a little bit
about, you know, sort of something important that happened in history that round
about the sort of seventeenth century when we've got the time of you know,
Matthew Hopkins and the witch Finder General and lots of people being accused in country
districts of you know, practicing witchcraft, regardless of whether they were witches or
not. To be perfectly honest, but what happened was that you'd get all
witches or women rather would be you know, labeled as witches, regardless of
their actual religious beliefs, whereas men would be labeled as cunning folk or cunning
men and would be seen as Christian and claim to draw all their power from
God and his angels and the Church, just whereas witches were supposed to draw
all their power from the devil. But that's just not correct. You know,
the real picture is a lot greyer than that. It's not strictly black
and white like that. It wasn't simply a matter of good versus evil.
That's really, you know, quite a misnomer on modern content. As you
said before, in the past, nothing a person was thinking nothing going to
church on a Sunday, mall in clasting skills a Sunday evening. It would
be the same thing exactly. That's very true. And I mean I've put
you know, various instances in the book that you've got various cunning folk,
you know, sort of as you say, would practice magic. But you
know some of them were churchwardens. And there are even cases there was a
Bishop of coggishaw was actually you know, sort of accused of you know,
sort of conjuring spirits and you know, sort of manufacturing love potions and this
sort of thing, all the things that you know seen as part of magic.
But he was actually you know, a member of the of the clergy
of the church, and this sort of thing, you know, wasn't uncommon
at that sort of time. But the fact that you were, you know,
a man at that time, you were kind of able to get away
with it, whereas obviously women unfortunately weren't. Yes, of course, class
may be given as well. Yes, of course I did persuading you an
interest in magic. Were perfectly fine with almost intellectual kind of magic, but
any one of a lower class it was involved with a frown upon least.
Yes, exactly. It's funny. I probably know really that I may have
mentioned other shows. But my dad's mum grandmother was the wiser woman of the
village in Wales where they're from, So there we have a kind of a
similar connection there. So I have a simply interesting less which were of course
as well. So your book starts off what sort of time frame, Well,
I've kind of started at the very beginning, really, going back to
the time when England became Christianized really and something was born which certain you know,
sort of modern Essex practitioners such as Andrew Andrew Chumley I've referred to as
the dual observance, which means, you know, sort of paying lip service
to the Christian God but maintaining a connection with you know, pagan deities.
And this, you know, was evidence with people like Redwoll, the last
of the Great East Anglian kings, who for a while maintained a pagan ultra
alongside that of the Christian God because it was a bit like you know,
sort of we're going to keep both sides happy, so to speak. Yeah.
Historically speaking, of course, a lot of pre Christian sites or pagan
sizes you might call them, were then built upon by the Christians exactly,
exactly, yeah, and that's why, you know, I mean you've got
places like bow shap Roading in Essex where you've got a pagan standing stone standing
in the churchyard because obviously it was a pagan site originally. And as you
quite rightly say, and you know a lot of Christian sites now and particularly
churches, you know, we're built on pagan sites because it was like,
you know, the Christian God claiming that, you know, sort of ancient
energy of the land. So I know it's claimed, I don't know if
it's ever been improved. It's been claimed that the Sas Church in Landen in
Essex, that's how BAZDM was a stone, some kind of standing stone on
that side before the jobs that built on top of it. Again, I
don't think they've been proven to be the case, but there is a folkloric
suggestion that that was the case as well. So there's another good example again
in Essex. So we go from then to I suppose all the burning times
of older? Yes, yes, then obviously you know sort of get we
get into that time because as I say, that was a very important time
in Essex magic, because you've got this divergence where you'd get a new breed
of cunning folk coming up who profess to say, draw you know, all
of their power from God and his angels, and they would get rid of
the witches by performing anti curses against the witches, you know, particularly you
know, sort of witch bottles and things like that. And this is something
which really in Essex and a lot of other country you know, sort of
more you know, sort of country side parishes went on well into you know,
the late nineteenth and even in parts the early twentieth century where you'd got
this continued belief in witchcraft. So therefore there was still a need for cunning
folks supposedly to combat these witches. Interestingly, indeed, of course there is
the move us to more kinds of Victorian age. There was a couple of
characters which we cannot avoid mentioning. Is the very very significant one for reality
one for more for mythical reasons of course, as we've discussed in the past,
But you can't avoid not talking about, first and foremost the myth,
shall we say, the myth of certain George picking Gill. This is may
not be familiar with the name, but we are very familiar. But perhaps
you want to tell them, yes, well, I mean George Pickeinill,
according to a lot of books you might read these days, was probably one
of the most famous cunning men in England. But the problem is that accounts
of George Pickeinill being a cunning man and aura which only really started with the
testimony of one person, and that was a certain Lilian Garner who was born
Lillian Higbee, and she was a Canwdon, resident of Dutch descent and supposedly
an adept in white magic. When Eric Maple, the Essex folkalist Essex amateur
folklorist who wrote articles for Folklore Magazine and subsequently put a lot of his Essex
witchcraft material into a book called The Dark World of Witches, and Lillian Higbee
or Lillian Garner as her married name, she was known locally as Granny Ganner
because she was obviously quite old by then, talked to Eric Maple about this
supposed witch called George Pickingill and or Pickingale was you know, he goes under
alternative names. And here comes another part of the problem with this is that
people are a bit unsure whether these things, you know, are actually beauty
to George Pickinghill himself, George picking Neil junior, his son, or you
know. And because he went under these various names, he's been difficult to
trace. But as I say, the problem with the picking and material is
that it only really started with Lillian Garner. And if George Pickingil was this
great cunning man, why wasn't anything reported of him to do with witchcraft or
the cunning craft before before this? Because it wasn't like this was the first
time that folklorist had gone to Canwden and looked into its witchcraft traditions. You've
got you know, lots of stuff, you know, pre Maple, even
going back to Philip Benton's History of the roch Had hundred, which was written
in them, you know, sort of early to mid nineteenth century, and
he talks about, you know, legends of witches in Canwdon, but George
Picking is not mentioned. He's also not mentioned in any other folkloric books,
the one that we've both talked about in the past, Charlotte Mason's ESSEXIX Forrests
and Folklore, He's not mentioned in that. He's not mentioned in bee House
article for the that that she wrote. I think it was for the Times
magazine, and there was another art there was another article also written you know
before Maple went to Canwden. One of these mentioned Pickinill at all. Now
this is not to say that Pickanill wasn't mentioned before Maple, because he was
because he was quite famous as the oldest man in the village and therefore there
are various news reporters that went down to interviewing because of this. But a
he faked his age a lot he was actually, you know, sort of
supposedly something like about one hundred and six when he died, and there's notices
by the vicar changing the date first of all, I think, to one
hundred and three, and then it was changed back to ninety three, which
is his true age in death, as he's now accepted. But he was
famous for being the most oldest man in England at one time. But that
was all he was famous for. So if he was a great cunning man,
I can't see that, you know, sort of news of that would
have escaped these news reports. How that's simple but important. What we missed
off his biography, as it were, that leaves us wondering, as we've
seen in many occasions, of what's going on here. Of course, we
have a very famous professor who also seems to hear to the picking girls story.
But I think you should tell the story about when he went to suppose
you've interviewed these people was rather amusing. Well, yes, I mean,
you know, I mean, the whole picking all legend really has been given
credence by you know, sort of modern academics, you know, sort of
professor Ronald Hutton for example, who wait, sometime in the nineteen sixties to
you know, sort of an interview to Guy Arden, who claimed that you
know, he was because he was very old at the time, and he
claimed to have known George Pickingill towards the end of his life. But all
that he really recounted was tales of horsemanship. And if you read the books
of George you were Evans, who was a great folklorist who recorded a lot
to do with East Anglian traditions. He showed that traditions of horsemanship which were
derived from you know, probably the Roman traditions a lot of the time,
you know, we're still prevalent, you know, through to the mid twentieth
century in parts of Suffolk, which he wrote about. So the problem there
is that that's the only new evidence post you know, sort of maple that
was able to add. And in my humble opinion, that does not in
any way confirm him as a cunning man, because, as I say,
if you read the works of Georgia Evans, you'll find that lots of country
folk possess some knowledge of this, But that doesn't in any way imply they
were, you know, a cunning man or even a regular practitioner of magic.
He's also worth pointing out, how does ronan to see this guy?
Well, I mean, if we're to believe you know, the online you
know sort of ages that are put on things like Wikipedia and things like this,
that he would have only been in his very very early teens. So
I'm not saying that, you know, sort of he was hoodwinked, but
I have I can't help enter attain the possibility that if you're a young teenager
going and seeking out the locals, you know, for salacious stories on witchcraft,
that they might have decided to you know, beefing up a little bit,
shall we say, and embellish the truth. And this is something also
that that's been entertained by various other people that have looked at the picking all
legend they you know, and Canwden basically got a sort of a bit of
a reputation. There's a letter actually, which I've quoted in the book from
a woman called Prudence Jones, who was a pagan and wrote a lot of
you know, sort of books on wicker and things. In her opinion was
that Canwton was a village of hoaxes. And you know, that might be
a bit strong, but I can see where she's coming from, because I
think, you know, they tried to play upon the legend, and I
can see why they might want to pick George Pickinnill as you know, the
sort of front man if you like, for you know, Canuden witchcraft because
he was the village's most famous resident. As I say, only because he
was the oldest man in the village. Just not for any supernatural reason.
Although as we also know, a lot of people, you know, back
in past times, if they lived, you know, to a ripe old
age, it was sometimes attributed to supernatural means. So long, well,
yeah, you get you know, another you know example which I've quoted in
the book, which is, you know Mary Ellis who is buried in Saint
Clement's Church in leon Cea. She was a reputed witch, but she was
no witch. All she did really was manufacture a few herbal remedies to give
to the poor at a time when you know, which is which is when
doctors were you know, sort of prohibitively expensive. So she was labeled a
witch because she died at the Grand old Age or something like about one hundred
and nineteen or something like that, or potions obvious work, yes, and
then of course there was another particular what she should mention that really does beef
up the story of George being beyond belief. This is the picking your papers,
of course, which is there's must of work affections each We love craft
really, but he's become quite popular, yes, yeah, I mean it
really. It started off with letters which were first of all published in the
Wiccan Newsletter, and as I say, this was ented by Prudence Jones.
But and then came out in a few small booklets I think in the early
you know, nineteen eighties, talking how George Pickinhill was not just a local
village cunning man, but that he'd met Aleister Crowley, he'd been partly responsible
for penning rituals used by the Hametic Order of the Golden Dawn in collusion with
Alista Crowley, and that you know Crowley and people, you know, he
was linked with Gerald Gardner and these people inducted into his covens, and he
supposedly had several covens throughout East Anglia. And I should point out that you
know the academics, you know, Professor Ronald Hutton, you know, and
in his stead, you know sort of people like Owen Davis who written,
you know, some great books on magic and witchcraft, but they still accept
Maple's word that he was a small town, you know, sort of cunning
person, as I say, you know, I can't even see the evidence
for that, but certainly, you know, this person, you know,
who eventually was found out to be a guy called Bill Liddle, although I
think his real name was actually or his birth name was something like Graham Irwin
Moss. I think I'd have to check that, but you know, he
was, you know, sort of lived or his family lived at some point
in Canude, and then he moved out to Australia. But you know,
he just penned all these you know, sort of outlandish claims really, and
this was one of the reasons that actually Prudence Joe's decided to stop, you
know sort of. She said, you know, in the introduction to one
of his books, I think was George picking on the Roots of East England
Witchcraft or something like that. I forget the exact title, but in the
introduction to the book, she said, We've tried checking, you know,
all of the references that Leu has given for the you know, the information
that he's put in this book, and we can't find any of them,
and basically it's because they don't exist alarm bells and he can't find the source
I suppose that you mentioned. But unfortunately, a large the army last and
I people still believe the picking up it was to be accurate, which is
rather saying really but as often belief sometimes Trump's fact, which is a real
show. Well, this is true, and it didn't help really that Mike
Howard, you know, who's you know, a great champion of traditional witchcraft,
published The Cauldron magazine you know for many years, which is you know,
fantastic magazine. Unfortunate he is no longer with us, and you know,
but I had various conversations with him during his lifetime about picking hire and
unfortunately, you know, we just agreed to disagree on that. You know,
he was still willing to accept that, you know, sort of the
elders that informed or supposedly informed you know, Moss or Bill Little as he's
more popularly known, did exist and they were correcting what they said. You
know, but if there is any truth in those rumors, they could have
been the same people, you know, people like Lillian Garner and you know
sort of the other people living in Canute at the time who gave birth to
the original picking your legend and just decided, you know, we'll beef it
up a bit. Let's move from I said there's now myth to fact.
There is or was undoubtedly a very important coming man who definitely did live in
ethics and he was a going man, and that is James Cunning Mrrell.
Yes, I mean James Murrell. I mean, you know, and we
have contemporary ports, you know, unlike picking here, we have contemporary ports
of James Murrall's magic in Philip Benton's History of the Rochford Hundred, which is
first published are thinking about the eighteen sixties, and he actually knew Mrrell and
actually even you know, up until Benton's death actually possessed certain of Murrell's books
and phrenologically you know, decorated skulls and heads and you know, prenological heads
and things like this, which Murrell actually used. Although he was very very
scathing and very very skeptical about Murrell's abilities, he did at least, you
know, sort of accurately pought you know, what he did. And there's
no doubt that Murrell was, you know, a proper cunning man. And
you know, as I've argued before, you know, back in a series
of articles I did for Mike Howard's Cauldron magazine back in I think it was
twenty fourteen, that James Murrell was the last of the great Essex cunning folk.
And the strange thing is he would have you know sort of he did
actually go to Canwdon because he had a lot of ties with qu not because
I think it was his daughter married Daniel Whitwell, a Canwdon resident, and
they lived in Canwden from that time on, so Murrell was a regular visitor
to Canwdon. And it's one quite you know, sort of amusing story that
doesn't involve Picking Hill, but of Murrell being asked the villager's petition in the
Reverend Atkinson in Canwton to get Murrell in to actually whistle up the witches and
call them all out. But Atkinson supposedly refused this request because he knew that
his wife would be amongst them, so that didn't happen. But the interesting
thing is that if you look at the things that have now been attributed to
Picking Hill, such the ability to whistle up witches, wart charming, and
several other things, you know, sort of flying around on a hurdle and
a bruised it. These are all things that were previously attributed to Murrell and
seem to have been sort of grafted onto the pickinill legend in order to give
it some kind of gravitas. Mason. What we mentioned just now in the
nineteen twenties is a real kind of proof of that, because some of the
things that are written that were clear done that by Murrell are also because things
said the picking gilt exactly. The transition has taken transitional that's taking place to
the copy on the other. So, I mean both of us have talked
about this another other cases. Both I've talk about other shows as well.
This whole point of Murrale is the real kind of Big Girls, just a
bit of a myth and legends. So that's the important material. That one
of the reasons why I wanted to publish it and as Ninth Circle Press my
publishing company, was to get that out there that we have got very very
good evidence to say that Pick and Guilt, wherever he might have been,
the old Man or whatever, may have some links possibly, although there's nothing
to prove it at all. It was kind of moral. James Murell was
the man. He was the real Yeah exactly. I mean, as I
say, you know you're talking about evidence. You know, you've got plenty
of evidence of Morral, but unfortunately when you look at picking Ill, there
is just no evidence prior to to Eric Maple's, you know, talking to
Lillian Gharana and if they that was. And I also find it quite interesting
that in the wake of Maple, I think it was in about the early
or very nineteen sixty or very early nineteen sixties, there was still an interest
in witchcraft in Essex and a reporter for a magazine called Q went out to
Canewdon and again who did you meet up with in the local pub? Lily
and Ghana, who woud obviously informed Maple. So you would think that you
know, he would have got you know, information on Pickingill from her,
but no, she didn't mention Pickingill at all in the article. He gets
no mention at all. But you get mentioned of a guy called Bibby Kemp,
who again was touted as some kind of spiritual air almost to George Pickinhill
without mentioning picking Hill, with even a very very similar picture to the one
used of which is supposedly George Pickinhill, you know, And I say supposedly
because nobody's ever approved it, and there is only one picture out there.
As you know, I'm sure your listeners can go on the internet and they
will only find the one picture of picking Hill, Yeah, exactly, that
one outside his cottage, you know, which unfortunately is sadly is no longer
there. It's demolished some years ago. But Bibby Kemp, you know,
with the same sort of you know, he's got a hat on, same
sort of you know, menacing sort of look, and you think, yeah,
again, you know, it's like Lillian Garner's trying to taunt this guy's
the new George Pickenhill, really, you know, and again attributing you know,
sort of various curses to Bibby Kemp, you know, saying yes,
he was also a watch armor. He also you know, flew around the
village on a hurdle and scared the children during the nineteen thirties and things like
this. So you think you can see the continuity of the stories. That's
the thing, of course, because back in sort of the time frame of
these writers in nineteen sixties, this of us seeing slacious nonsense. Anyways,
suppose you no one really cared about the truth of what was going on,
say, more modern sort of researchs and historians want to know more accurate what's
happening. So the idea of picking Gilder's story began to just grow bigger and
bigger. No one really cared it was that important, But to us it's
a little more important now. But's toy. It's so if you can move
on beyond sort of those guys to the twentieth century stuff about us, it's
what's the name that stand out for you? Well, I mean, if
you want to sort of pull it forward a bit too recent times, then
obviously Andrew Chumley has to be you know, mentioned who I've treated in the
book, because Andrew was, you know, a very maverick figure, you
know, in the magical community, you know, sort of a very solitary
figure. You know, didn't really sort of you know, mix a lot,
and you know, brought out several books, you know, the Azueisha,
which first came out in nineteen ninety two, which is you know,
his own personal grimoire, which sort of mixed various you know, sort of
traditions, you know, bits of Austin Osman Spare and you know, sort
of bits of various sort of traditions. But then I really want to come
up onto the groom rather golden toad which you know, I think it came
out in two thousand or something like that, which Andrew performed, you know,
the toadbone, right or a version of it, which is a you
know, particular right within East Anglian, you know, and Essex witchcraft,
which I've treated the book it is it is generalist, I think toadbones.
Who cares about those? But we know there's a lot more to them,
a small charm exactly, yes, Yeah, And you know and Andrew,
you know, sort of performed a version of that particular right and he actually
saw you know him, and you know sort of the members of his you
know particular you know, the uni members of his order, the Cult Sabatai
as the natural you know, sort of inheritance of the cunning craft of Essex,
you know, all the currenters. He termed it, which is a
term which comes from Eric Maple. Unfortunately I can't trace that term beyond Maple,
so I can't you know, really say that it's something that has any
great antiquity. But yes, yeah, I mean yeah Maple, you know,
I mean, very interesting figure and very important in the history of Essex
witchcraft and folklore. But I think, you know, with some of what
he wrote, you have to take it with a little bit of a pinch
of salt. But yes, of course jemy m Zebud claimed they have certain
antecedents in the past, that this stuff wasn't out of the bluly he was
part of a continuing line as well, of course, yes, although nothing
to do with that Essex specifically. I think he claimed his lineages came from
two specific lineages, one for Oxfordshire, which supposedly dated back to around about
sort of the nineteen forty something like that, and another one which came from
West or Mid Wales I think, which was a matriarchal you know sort of
lineage. But unfortunately, we don't have any specific details of these lineages,
you know, we can only take them, you know, on you know,
sort of you know, sort of hearsay if you like. You know,
we don't really have any details of those. I mean, it was
a guy called James mcness who actually introduced Chumnley certainly to the oxyd share one
I think. So, you know, Andrew only had really Nessi's claim.
You know, he never actually you know, sort of met anybody that was
in these covens in the nineteen forties or anything. So you know, but
the problem is we have so many modern traditions claiming to be traditional witchcraft,
which really only came about as a counter balance to Gardener's Wicker, which they
didn't agree with. And really going back to the whole Little Material, you
know, as I've written in the book, you know, you can see
why this stuff came out because, as Little himself admitted, you know,
his elders wanted to record their tradition as a counterbalance against what they really guarded.
Does the heresy of Garden's wicker? Yeah, yes, I've said this
before in other shows where you as you've got three threads, you've got the
wicker, you've got traditional witchcraft, which is kind of borrowing from genuine historic
material, but then kind of synthesize into a traditional quote traditional witchcraft, and
you've got stuff like actual old spells you can actually find in old books,
like the phocolosoph I used in the past. Is there anything more sort of
practically in your book as well as a spell work. Oh yes, yeah,
I mean that, you know, I've gone into obviously the various you
know sort of curses anti curses. You know, talked about you know the
toadbone right, which you know, very very important and you know certainly does
have you know, considerable antiquity because you can, you know, look back
in history and you know, people like Reginald Scott in the sixteenth century wrote
about you know, the toadbone right, and it's you know, interesting to
look how it's changed slightly over the years as it's been recorded. And then
if you bring it up to date with the books of Georgia at Evans,
which are written in sort of like the nineteen fifties and nineteen these he records
various you know instances of this right being performed in East England. There's a
book on poaching which I've actually got a copy of, I forget the name
of it now goes by travels by Night. I think it's called something on
those lines that brief events it as well. So I found I was quite
fascinating and also think clearly the Elder in Roman Times wrote about a version of
it. I'm sure that somewhere, yes, that that that is correct.
I mean, you know, I think it was because Andrew Chumley, as
well as performing you know, the right itself, also wrote his own kind
of history of you know, sort of toad magic and he does obviously,
you know, show that, you know, Yes, there are very variations
in plenty, and then if you want to take it forward, there's also
variations in Agrippa, and then variations in Scotland, so so on and so
forth. So it's something which has been recorded throughout history really since you know,
very very early times, but seems to have changed slightly, you know.
I mean, I won't go into all the full details of the change
the history changes here people can read that in the book, but absolutely so
other areas you want to talk about the book covers. I suppose one of
the main you know, sort of areas you know, sort of as we
talked about coming up to modern times the Roman e or traveler you know,
sort of aspects of magic, which really kind of as Maple when I think
quite correctly noted in this, you know instance, kind of revitalized you know,
sort of magical traditions in particularly more remote farming communities, because during the
eighteen seventies you've got a lot of Romani travelers came down to Essex from where
they've been, you know, sort of camping out on the borders of Epping
and Epping Forest. And this was also a time when you've got a lot
of others coming down from Suffolca and other parts of the country, which is
how you know, my great maternal great grandmother ended up here. And I
mean originally you know, I mean she was Emma Taylor. And even if
you go to tip Tree today, you know, because Tuddick, where she
lived, is like a you know, sort of little hamlet outside of Tiptree,
you know, sort of remote farming community, and even today the Tailors
and the Andersons are the two biggest Romany families in the area, you know,
and they you know, from from that time that's when they first moved
down. So I think, you know, it's quite you know. One
of the important things in the book for me was to show how, you
know, sort of those traditions of you know, the Romanese you know,
sort of put a new injection into you know, sort of Essex magic and
and it kind of revitalized it to the point where you've even got sort of
various country Parsons, you know, during the nineteen thirties writing in church newsletters.
Of quote one instance in the book that you know, I forget the
exact quote, it's something like, you know, sort of there is still
you know, a dark paganism within the country communities and the resistance to Christianity,
which there were. And the reason for this is is because all of
this main thrust you know, magic in Essex was to do with agriculture,
and again, you know sort of that dates back to the whole sort of
beliefs in certain pagan gods you know, sort of thraw wode In and various
others, you know, that sort of Anglo Saxon gods introduced from you know,
Scandinavia or you know, or potentially Germany. It's a little bit you
know, sort of of a gray area exactly where they you know. Again,
it's something I've gone into in the book, which people can read in
more detail there if they want to. But I think it was, you
know, sort of important to sort of you know, show you know,
sort of why these traditions survived in agricultural areas, and you know, and
that's how kind of you know, the devil, you know, among the
country folk, you know, was far different to the devil of Christianity,
you know. And again I've gone into the book into the various rights and
traditions associated with him and things like that, you know, and how you
know you could show that basis in agricultural heritage. Well excellent. So that's
give us a lot of information about your book, which I shall give the
other information will be published very soon. It should be out in June from
Ninth Circle Press. That's my publishing company, night Saga Press dot com as
the website or dot code at uki in both domain names. And what's the
full title TwixT God and the Devil, which goes back to it said at
the beginning the idea of the dual observance. You can be a Christian at
Sunday church in the morning and then practice your magic and Sunday evening and actually
the problem between the two. Well, thank you very much Richard for joining
me to this evening on a extra special Highest strangeres Factor show which will be
going out very soon, and i'd say that bok will be available from June.
There will be a standard edition hardback which is number but not signed,
as a special edition which is numbered and signed. At least there's a signed
book Plato gives of it. That's a leather bound in a slipcase. It's
four leather, but it's still very good quality. And both will be available
in June later this month, hopefully so audio a copy from again Ninth Circlepress
dot co dot UK or Ninth Circlepress dot com. I'll put a leak actually
in the description of where the website is and you can order from there.
And so thank you very much for thank you and excellent, thank you for
listening to the interview. I hope you've had it interesting. We were back
very soon, of course, with Steve myself together hosting The High Strangers Factor.
Until then, I live for now.