Hey, everybody, welcome to coming out pod y'all. Today we are going
to be talking about dance and movement, and so for the queer root,
shout out, shout out to you. If your queer root is Zoe Saldana.
Zoe Saldana, now you could have She could be your queer root in
many things, depending on your age and what you saw her in. I
am thinking specifically because it's the matic. I'm thinking of her in the movie
Center Stage, which is a two thousand dance film that, oh my god
it is. It's a cult classic. It's not explain it's not like a
queer movie, but like it's kind of queer. I mean, all dances,
All dance is kind of queer, right, it's the girls dancing together.
Come on, it's an amazing movie. Zoe Saldana is like the cool
sort of like rebellious dancer girl in it. You got to see Center Stage
if you haven't seen it. So yeah, just wanted to honor Zoe Saldana's
work in Center Stage and all the other amazing things that she has been beautiful
and talented in. Okay, so let's jump right in. I have with
me today. My guest is Maddie Kling. Hi, Maddie, thank you
for being here. Hi, I'm so excited to be here, and thank
you for having me. I am so thrilled. So basically so, Maddie
is a grad student studying dance movement therapy, which is something we will talk
about in depth. But Maddie emailed the pod and was like, Hey,
I'm doing this project. I was wondering if I could like interview you for
it. And I almost never get to be on the other side of an
interview, so I was very excited and immediately was like, yes, please
interview me. And then I was like, also, if you want to
be a guest, I always like, anytime someone reaches out, I'm always
like, do you also want to be a guest? But I'm we had
never on the pod, we've never really spoken about uh certainly we've never spoken
specifically about dance movement therapy, and Mattie's project just sounded so so cool.
Uh, so we're gonna we're gonna talk about the project today. We're gonna
obviously talk about Mattie's personal coming out story, but yeah, I jumped at
the chance, and we are coming off of we just did our little interview,
which is really fun. So I sort of feel like I just did
like a mini episode and now we're turning it around and now Mattie's doing my
episode. So uh yeah, of Maddie, before we even get into how
you identify and all that good stuff, do you want to just give like
sort of like a little synopsis of what dance movement therapy is and what you're
studying and what your project is and all that good stuff. Oh yeah,
I'd absolutely love to. So dance movement therapy is under the umbrella of creative
arts therapy, which includes things like music therapy, art therapy, narrative therapy,
poetry therapy, drama therapy, and then dance movement therapy. That's my
world, and dance movement therapy can happen within any population and it has so
many different goals, but some include the mind, body connection, grounding,
expression, let's see, identity development, so many more that I can't even
think of off the top of my head, and that all comes from the
body. We use our body as our resource to achieve those goals, and
that's really rooted in dance movement therapy. Using our body as a resource to
achieve those goals, and so my work kind of follows the self identity expression
storytelling route, and I'm looking at how dance movement therapy can provide protective factors
and minimize risk factors for the queer community by allowing them to tell their coming
out story through dance and movement. So that's the project. Ah, yeah,
amazing. That is so cool in so many ways. And it came
up. I had asked Mattie during our our Opposite Sees interview right before this
if if, as far as as she knew, if she was the first
person doing something like this, and Maddie did It really made a great point
of acknowledging that in terms of academia, academia can often leave out marginalized folks
less privilege. So it's it's kind of impossible to really know the breath of
work that's been done, but in terms of like actual like academia that you
can like google or whatever. Yeah, as far as Mattie knows, she
is the first person to do a project like this, which is just so
so cool. Yeah, and I'm so honored to get to be like a
small part of that with the interview that we just did. Yeah, and
my question in terms of dance movement therapy, is this like a relatively recent,
I don't know, field of study, or is it like as old
as the hills? And I've just never heard about it, But like I
know about like like felt in Christ or like god, what's the other one
that actors are always doing? Like there's some that I've that I've heard of
in terms of like body movement stuff, but i never heard of dance movement
therapy, so I'm curious. Yeah, so I always like to say that,
no, it's not new. All across the world, dance has been
used as a healing mechanism forever. Like dancing, a movement is ingrained into
our lives, even in our like cellular level, So no, it's not
new. However, the field in air quotes, field of dance movement therapy
is relatively new from the sixty seventies and developed in for the Western culture.
That kind of part of dance movement therapy is a little bit newer ish,
and it continues to grow and find new ways to become mainstream and finding new
ways to adapt to different populations. And yeah, yeah, this is I'm
so excited to talk to you about this because I've been very candid on the
podcast about how I am one of those people who is sadly very kind of
disconnected from my body, my physical meat casing, and it's something that I,
you know, I try to get better with. I do struggle with
it. I am very intellectual, very sort of like living in my head,
and my body is sort of like a secondary like oh yeah, I
have this body I forgot And my former co host Nicole was like, I
wouldn't say she's the opposite. She's also very heady and intellectual, but she
is so rooted in her body and connected to her body, and dance specifically
is like such a point of like she she would say, like if I
haven't danced in like a couple months or something like I have to go out
and spend a Saturday night dancing, or like I feel like I'm losing it
and I'm like, wow, I am always on my couch. So we
were very different in that respect, but like, I'm so I'm so excited
to just talk to you about all of this stuff because I struggle to like
have my body be more connected to the rest of me, which is the
hilarious sense. I feel like so many people in Western society, especially in
the United States, like that disconnect is so very real and so very prevalent.
Yeah, that it is difficult then to find our way back to that
mind body connection. And I think that's where dance movement therapy can be so
rich and valuable. It's like a bridge to that instead of like immediately doing
that, which can be harmful or not feel well, it kind of,
yeah, trickles in so that you can feel some sort of safety or bravery
within your body instead of just dropping in, which may not be the most
safe option. I love that. Yeah. I have famously said in the
past, like, especially during college when there are a lot of parties involved
dancing, I was like, the only time I'm comfortable dancing or feel like
I'm any good at dancing is when I'm drunk. I am like, that
speaks to a whole other thing. But like, how cool would it be
to be able to feel that way without having to get drunk first? So
I love the idea of something bridging the cab yep. Yeah, But dancing
can often make me like I remember when I was younger, it would make
me stressed if I was like if like some friends were like going out dancing.
I was like, oh, no, people will see my body move.
I don't even want to see my body move, So like, yeah,
it's just really interesting how how this stuff can maybe come naturally to some
people and then people like me, it's like ew, And I'm wondering,
are you yourself a dancer or a former dancer, or like what's your specific
relationship to dance in general? Yeah, I would say current dancer. I'm
still dancing. I've been dancing since I was five, so that's like eighteen
and a half years now. If you want to do the math on that
even tell my age, but maybe not right now. But yeah, I
still dance, still take classes, have done a lot of different styles.
I'm so I'm so jealous, and just I had people who that's amazing to
me. I love it. Okay, okay, So so Maddie, how
do you identify? Great question? I identify as queer by demisexual, cisgendered
woman, white woman, currently not disabled. And yeah, that's where I'll
cap it for now. Ah. I love wow, I love that.
I also love yeah I did just it took me a minute, but I
did the math in my head. And so you are certainly one of the
younger guests that I've had at and I love I love I love the I
don't know if it would be a micro label, but I love this specificity
that went into breaking that down. I love that you're saying, how did
did you phrase it currently? Not disabled? Am I saying that correctly?
Or like? Yeah, I just love the acknowledgment. Uh yeah, especially
as someone who deals with the body and movement like that. I just I
love it. I love everything you said. Can you will you? Will
you run through the first part of it one more time for me so that
I can zero in on anything I might have questions about. Yeah, so
queer's like the overarching that I use. Yeah, bisexual and demisexual I perse
out, and then I'm sis gender, which is gender identity, which we
all know can impact sexual orientation. So that's why I put that in there
for sure. Thank you so much. Yeah, demisexual is something I'd love,
I'd love to dig into. I've said often on the podcast that I
think demisexual or demi romantic, like I'm never sort of sure about, but
I feel like one of those is probably right for me. But yeah,
let's let's talk about all of it as it comes up. Uh, where
did things start for you? Where are you from? Yeah? I like
thinking about my coming out story because of my dummy sexualness. I did not
have crushes for the longest time, like until even late college. However,
in retrospect, I was like, Oh, everything lines up, and I
knew the term bisexual fit even before I even had crushes, like probably late
high school, early high school. So that kind of all intermeshes together.
So it's a little bit like doesn't really have like a flash beginning point per
se, but kind of like a meltz into my life. But I think
the first part maybe is like late high school. Oh my god, wait,
so can I ask how did I love that? You're saying that you
had a like you knew about bisexuality but weren't having crushes. So what did
that like look like for you if they weren't crushes per se? Was it
like an esthetic attraction thing where you were like, I like looking at all
kinds of people are like what did that? Yeah, I'm so interested in
the not crushes but still knowing. Yeah, I like saying demisexual. There's
like demisexual because I didn't have sexual feelings, but I am absolutely a hopeless
romantic and nice. So those kind of like dreaminess feelings. So that's why
I didn't. I don't really I don't really have a crush per se because
I didn't want anything to happen. I didn't want to pursue these people.
But I was like, h dreaminess. Cut, that's the vibe a little
bit. Oh, I love that. And you're talking about like real people,
like in your life at school or something like that. It sounds like
like those kinds of feelings. Okay. Was there was there anything with like
celebrities or like characters on TV or anything like that, or because you are
demisexual, was that not really figuring into it because you're like I don't know
these people. Yeah, no exactly. I was like, I still don't
really get celebrity crushes because it just doesn't really translate to me as Okay.
I will say though, like fictionally, that also kind of helped me with
my bisexuality because you do get to know characters really intimately. Yeah, so
I will say fictionally, I could have maybe crushes. I'll put also that
in air quotes. I'm not really sure if i'd call it a crush for
me, but there was a little bit more that I'm gonna call it dreaminess
again. I don't know why I'm coming back to that, but that,
No, I love that. Yeah, this is and it's also why I'm
like, see, I don't know if Debbie sexual or Debbie robantic is right
for me as someone who's like very obsessed with Rachel Vice. I'm like,
so that must mean but like I I'm sure it manifests differently and everybody,
so it's just really cool to hear about it. But yeah, so I
think you said was it late high school or like when? Yeah, and
it was always for it sounds like whomever not according to gender did that?
Was that a source of like like oh I don't feel I'm scared this might
mean something bad? Or was it just like a fact of life and it
didn't bother you? Like what was Yeah? I think at first, like
before late high school, I was like whatever, didn't really matter. And
then at some point in late high school, my friend came out to me
as bisexual. And at that point I was starting to get like understand myself
a little bit more and have a little bit more questions. And once she
said that, I immediately after started being like, well, do I like
boys? Do I like girls? Do I like no? One like that
just constantly was in my brain after cycle after cycle after cycle. So like,
once I heard her say that term, I was like, WHOA.
Mine was kind of broken a little bit, but also gave me a lot
to think about. And that's kind of that's where it really started to really
explore sexual identity in that way. And that's kind of why I say that's
the ground zero, if you will, for all of these questions, and
were your friends at this point like dating? What was the and did you
not have any innswerts in that or were you like I should do this because
everyone else is doing it and I don't want like a big spotlight on me
or a lot of questions like how did that all? I was lucky that
in my high school there weren't there wasn't for some reason, like that much
dating, so like it just like, wasn't that big a deal? Yeah,
if you weren't dating. But let's see, I'm trying to think in
my friend group there no one really dated, so there wasn't that pressure.
And also I was friends with a lot of out queer people in high school
already, which I think gave me a safety to think about those questions.
So I didn't have, at least to my knowledge, I didn't have pressure
to be heteronormative, which was kind of relieving. I did kind of have
a pressure to be like, oh, I have a crush and maybe I'll
come up with just someone that maybe would fit and pretend to have a crush
at some points, but never pressure to date or really go that heteronormative path,
which I think I'm really fortunate and privileged to have that experience too.
But yeah, no, that's that's amazing. You're reminding me of a former
guest. She's an uk asexual activist er at Yasmin and she I remember her
talking about when she was in like high school or something, the Twilight movies
and how it was like do you like Jacob or do you like Edward?
And she was like, I didn't give a shit about either one of them,
but I just arbitrarily picked one because I knew I had to. I
just like didn't want people. So I was like, I don't even remember
who she ended up picking, but it was like she literally did not care,
but was just like, I'm going to say one so that people do
not think I'm weird for not liking one or the other, and it's like,
I'm so glad that you didn't. It sounds like have that much of
that experience of like yeah, pushed on you, right exactly. I distinctly
remember, I think this was second grade. There was a new kid that
came to my school. All the girls were raving over him. Oh my
god, this person is so cute, like don't you like him? And
I'm sitting in the corner being like yeah, I guess, like side eyeing
and not sharing that sentiment at all. And I was like, well,
I don't want to be left out, so I'll just say yeah, I
have a crush. But in reality I was like nah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, Okay. So what happens I guess for college? Did you
go far from home or like, or were you still living at home?
What was your situation once you once you were out of high school? Yeah,
so I stayed in the same state. I'm from Colorado, by the
way. I don't know if that matters much to context, but I was
about an hour and a half away. I would say, not much changed
and textually from like high school to college, except for maybe the fact that
there was a little sprinkle of freedom. And so I still had these running
thoughts and all of this curiosity starting to like bubble up in me. And
it was when I went away to college that my cousin came out to me,
and that also further furthered those questions. And let me tell you,
this is a great story as well, a story within a story. So
one night I'm just sitting calmly and I get a text from my cousin.
It goes, can I tell you something? And in my head I said,
oh, they're going to come out. I don't know where that thought
came from, but I that's literally inner monologue was they're going to come out
too. I said, yep, you can tell me anything. Go redhead.
And next thing is is just I'm gay sent right to me and I
was like fist punching the air like so it started for that and I am
so excited and I was like secretly, I was like, can can I
tell you something? Back? They were like sure, It's like I knew
and they were like how. And the best part is I was like,
you cheered so loud at the Halsey concert when Halsey was like, okay,
let's cheer for the queers, and next to me, my cousin is screaming,
and I was like a big tell, that's just how I knew.
And it was a great moment. But from then on my brain just kept
going and going and added layer everything my cousin does thir a year older than
me, I also must do so, just maybe not consciously, but it
just seems like that's the pattern they do. Something kind of follow right along.
So my brands continue continually thinking about these questions but still kind of like
in the minutias of it, not quite coming out yet, but yeah,
sure, sure, okay, and and so you're in I'm trying to like
so my experience I remember of being in college so long ago. It's depressing,
but I had a lot of anxiety I guess about like if it mattered
that I was a virgin and hadn't had sex and I hadn't even fully figured
out at all my identity. I think at that point I was I thought
I was bisexual, but I hadn't like really come out to people, but
I was. I remember being really stressed that like, uh, this isn't
like high school, where a lot of my friend group were the same as
me, Like oh, some of them had sex, but not ever,
not to the point where I was like in the minority. But then at
college, especially as I got older, I was like, ugh, is
it weird that I'm a version of people gonna think I'm weird? Or do
I have to tell people? Like are they going to be able to tell
by looking at me? And that was like such a point of stress.
And I famously, as I've said on the podcast, didn't lose my virginity
until I hate that term. I'm trying not to use that term. I
did not have sex with somebody until my senior year of college, which was
like pretty late quote unquote in terms of like certainly in terms of what you
see on like TV and movies, but like also at that time in history,
like it by that point, like most people had had sex. And
that was just like so kind of weighing on me and stressful, and for
someone who knows, even if you don't have the language that you're a demi
sexual, I'm wondering if that was also like really stressful for you. I'm
hoping it's gotten better in the many years since I was in college, but
I don't know. College is a very sex heavy environment in my experience.
Yeah, I still I share that sentiment. I was absolutely stressed, and
I think that added a layer of like the internal biophobia of like well,
how do you know, or even at internal homophobia at that, like how
do you know nort had sex? Like that was also a constant thought that
played into this. I was like, well, how can you be sure?
And I at the time did not know that was internalized messaging at all,
and so I just was like, well, great, now I'm extra
not sure because of what people are saying, and it is stressful, and
I have no sexual attraction to anyone, so there's no way that I am
going to find out, and so yeah, I kind of just had to
trust myself. That's kind of like a little bit later on in the coming
out part of my story, like to myself is like fully trusting that what
my truth in my head is is in fact truth, whether it doesn't need
to be confirmed. So definitely stressed, Absolutely absolutely, that's sort of yeah.
And just for the record, it's worth repeating. I've said it,
Nicole, and I used to say this, and I've said this many times.
I will repeat myself. Someone can be any type of sexuality, not
just like buyer Pan. But like even gay, having never had sex with
like that is not a prerequisite, because I've spoken on this pot to so
many asexual people who will still identify, like it is absolutely not a prerequisite,
but it is so especially in college where it's like sex sex sex sex
sex. It's just like so stressful those thoughts, and I have so much
empathy, sympathy all the words for a sexual folks who are like in that
pressure cooker as well, because my god, I viscerally remember that feeling.
But yeah, yeah, that's a good message. Oh it's so important.
It's so important that we parse out like the act of sex. And then
again it's like, well what does sex mean as it We're like obvious,
it's different depending on how you have sex. So it's just such a weird
meter to use anyway. But yeah, absolutely, people identifying as by or
PAN who have never had sex with someone who we would be like that is
the you know, textbook definition of it, like not a thing. I
said, that's so clunky, but you know what I mean, Like,
it doesn't It absolutely is not a pre requisite for identifying. So yeah,
so you're so you're so young. I want to be like, keep going,
where does it? But then I'm like, oh my god, we're
already up to the age you are because you're sorry, I'm so fu Yeah,
that's a good point to bring out that I know I'm still finding out
all of the little niches of my own identity as a small twenty three year
old, but it feels like it was condensed in this first year, second
year ish of college. Speaking of like sex and dating in college, that
is like so forward that that's like just on everyone's mind. I distinctly remember,
I don't know how this came about, but I was on like creating
a profile on Bumble. I wasn't even interested in dating, but here I
was creating a profile on Bumble, and I'm like putting in my name,
putting in my email, dress, putting in my age. And it comes
to preference and it said man woman both. And I just stare at that
page for so long. I was like, I don't I kind of know,
but I don't know. And I just remember that moment of seeing man
woman both. Instinctually I came to this idea of it's absolutely both, and
that was like the coming out to self moment I like to call it.
I was like, you know what, this is really scary, so I'm
not going to complete this profile right now. But it is absolutely one hundred
percent both and like full spectrum of genders both. So that was cool.
That's one of the best stories. Usually dating app stories are like not great,
but that look at a dating app being useful in a way that it's
maybe not intended, but like it helped you. That's a beautiful thing,
right, Who would have thought that? I love that? Yeah? Yeah,
yeah? And had how recently ish was that? Are we talking just
like a couple of years ago? That that's sort of yeah, I guess
like to me, it feels far away, so like four years ago maybe,
Oh okay, but that's a little bit No, that's a little bit
of time. Sure, Yeah, so kind of close, I guess,
in like a full lifespan kind of vibe, not short time. But for
me and my time now, I've grown a lot since that that moment of
intuition or insight i'd like to say, but from there that spark, it
just started to like bubble up and like solidify somewhat in my mind. And
the friend that came out to me as by she was the first person I
told that I'm bisexual, which I think is a great roundabout moment, and
I distinctly remember we were at a full place because we always meet over fuf
and I just say, oh, and like, by the way, I'm
bisexual, and she breaks out into a big grin and that just made me
feel a little warm and snugly, and I again, I'm so privileged to
have that warm, confirming reaction to my first coming out to another person that
I treasure that memory so much. So, Oh god, that is a
beautiful full circle. That's so cool because it's like, you know, oh,
it's gonna go well like and you get to sort of like pay it
forward like they came out of the just I don't know. That's really love
it, that's really love. Yeah, that was like the first person I
told. And in my head then I started like tallying who else I wanted
to tell from that moment. And I have a really close relationship to my
mom and so she was like, number one, I'm not going to tell
anyone else until I tell her like that that's the next part of my foundation
that I need to feel solid on my feet, so to speak. And
so this is like that was like first year of college, second year of
college. That was my mountain to climb, was telling her, and every
little moment we had together alone, it was like in the back of my
mind, I was like, just spit it out, just spit it out,
It'll be okay. That's what went on in the little behind my ear
kind of telling me. And it didn't happen for so long. So this
is like, I would say, maybe six months of this ringing in my
ear. I just really want to tell my mom, but I was scared
and apprehensive. Even though I knew that there would be a positive reaction,
there's still that, yeah, I would call it like apprehension to it.
And so it all accumulated these six months again that bubbling over kind of sensation.
And again I'm on my phone because I'm a gen zer, so I'm
going to fully own that. I'm on my phone scrolling Refinery twenty nine and
I'm looking through all of it was like a guide to sexual orientations or something
like that is that kind of article, And I'm scrolling through, I'm reading
all of them. I get to bisexual and like tossing my yes, I
love that makes sense fits. I'm so excited about that, and then I
get to demisexual and I'm reading it and again my jaw drops and I'm like,
ah, huh, I didn't know this existed. And I felt again
affirmed, and that I think inertia pushed me into calling my mom, and
again I just nonchalantly was like, you know, I like men, I
like women. It's called being bisexual, and I'm also demi sexual. And
then I started crying because bubble of emotion, of positive emotion, all that
anxiety released. And honestly, I do not remember what my mom said back,
because it was just a bubble over of emotion. I know what was
positive. I know I felt supported, and that's all I can remember from
that Moment's amazing. I love that. Do you remember if she was like,
I'm so supportive, what is demisexual? Because I'm wondering, like I
feel like she probably hadn't heard of that, like you had only just heard
of that, yes, And she's a very academic focus and so she absolutely
began to just ask me a whole bunch of questions about it, and I
was like, I just read this definition. I'm not prepared to answer.
Yeah, I'm like reading from ice screenshot at that page of what demisexual definition
was, I'm just reading from the screenshot and like trying the best I can.
And subsequently, I feel like every time, like every few weeks she
called, she'd be like, remind me what your identities are again, like
every couple of weeks, which I absolutely loved, but I also am like,
I know, you know. At one point I was just like,
I know, you can tell me, and she did. She knows.
She just kept asking to be supportive. So wow, that's adorable. Okay,
okay, And so so that's like three ish years ago sounds like yeah.
And so once you read and sort of absorbed the demisexual did that label?
Did that change anything for you in terms of how you were thinking about
Did that make you feel like, oh, maybe now I'm interested in like
like dating or people now that I understand that, I like the way I
maybe see it and function like did that free you up at all? Absolutely?
Yeah. There was that sense of like blossoming almost and gave me such
I think maybe the word I will use is relief for maybe feeling like an
outcast in the past. I'm like, oh, it was just my brain
being my brain. I mean, there was some thing I of course had
to work through it in my own regard, but gave relief, maybe some
clarity. Yeah, so and help me into the future, for sure.
I'm so glad to hear that. That is why. You know. The
thing I always say about labels is like, if you don't want labels,
that is totally fine. Nobody has to use them. You don't owe labels
to anybody. But for some of us, labels are so much more a
comfort than like, I know, for some people they feel restricting and you
feel like you're in a box. But for some people, depending on how
your brain works or your personality, they can be really comforting once you find
ones that feel right for you. Uh. And I'm so glad that you
had that. I'm just so glad you had that experience, Like that's what
they're there for. That's yeah, that's the best case scenario for it.
Yeah, for all the labels that we have. Yeah, and yeah it
speaking of labels, kind of going ahead just a tiny bit, but yeah,
it's obviously evolved. I keep well, maybe not evolved, but it
just keeps adding, like I keep adding past first buy and then DEMI and
I've added queer to as like a liberating word to use in the space and
to bring that into spaces. Yeah, agreed, I fully agree. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, So do you want to talk more about like how
things evolved after? I'd love to, because I have a lot of roundabout
ways that things came for me. But after I told my mom, well,
like I said, that was the foundation, and then I began to
feel a lot more stable, and I practice using language and other spaces in
more space of like anonymity that I knew people wouldn't see me again, so
that I was a little bit safer. And then I told my cousin,
and we had recently moved in together, so we were just out shopping and
I we're in van, a van store, which again I feel like is
very by of me to be in a van store to come out to my
cousin. But I just lean over again my nonchalantness. That's I guess how
I'm coping with this and probably will continue to cope with coming up. But
I just nonchalantly I'm like, well, I'm bisexual. And their response also
won for the books. They just no words, They just hugged me.
And then a few days later they deliver me a package and it's a bye
flag. And I still have that flag hanging up, and I remember pinning
up that flag and feeling such like that was the first time I felt chills
from being able to fully see externally my identity and uh uh, it was
such I can't even describe the moment, like there was chills and happy tears,
and it was just a very culminating moment to have that flag pinned up
in my room, like of being proud and really out and desplaying myself.
Yeah, is this post if you're moving in together? Are you still in
college like living off campus? Or have you graduated by this point? Yeah?
That was still. That was at the beginning ish of junior year,
so yeah, I was off campus. I had a couple of years left.
And from that moment on, I felt more comfortable to just be authentically
myself in other spaces. One time, at a dance concert I was doing,
I was drawing a poster for something and I famously cannot draw a straight
line, and I was, you know, my shaky hands going all over
the paper, and I turned to my friend like, this line is as
straight as I am. I was like my first queer joke I ever made.
I was very proud at that moment, and I did get a few
chuckles, and that was the best, the best queer jokes I've ever made.
Oh good. That is such a big part of it, though,
is that when you get comfortable enough to start like making jokes or just like
casually offhandedly referring to it in conversation like that's a huge milestone. Oh that's
awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to think what else happens next?
Like yeah, Like I said, everything just kept evolving. Started telling people
again in my nonchalant tone, be like yeah, I'm by. Yeah,
started using the label queer a lot more, especially in grad school, to
encompass both By and Demi within one word instead of trying to say that every
time. I didn't even think of that. Yeah about encompassing Yeah, yeah,
that's very cool. Yeah. And so finding that space, I started
going to Brave meetings at my grad school. They're called Brave Cats for Creative
Arts Therapists, that's the acronym. So yeah, I just started to be
more authentically myself and kind of owning and being proud of my identities, which
is it has been very healing. I want to say, that's like a
healing part and growing part of myself. Yeah. And in terms of dance,
have you ever like, do you feel like you used dance to help
you, like either get more comfortable with coming out or to tell your own
coming out story? Like what what made gave you the idea for this project?
Was it? Like it started internally and you were like, what if
I did this for other people? Are like, yeah, I think the
most the most comfortable space I felt being out was dance. I major did
dance in undergrad and in that space, I felt super comfortable being myself.
And so that's like, I think just the space of artists creates that super
accepting, welcoming environment that I felt safe going into and that definitely helped.
I witnessed other coming out journeys in my peers through dance, even from like
my wreck dancing when I was super young. A lot of those those people
that I danced with came out in college, and seeing their journeys has bolstered
my feelings. And I've definitely used my dance in choreography to express my identity
and have witnessed other people doing that, And so it's all encompassed into support
and expression and just I don't know. I'm doing like a wavy thing with
my arms because I'm a dancer. I want to express myself. It's so
cool how you effortlessly. Yeah. No, I love that, I really
do. Yeah. And so okay, so you talked about how your this
project is ongoing until June, which is prime, and like, what does
something like this sort of look like ultimately? Like what is the scope of
it? I know I just got interviewed, but like, does it is
there what? I've been out of college for so long that I don't know
what stuff, yeah, ultimately looks like it. Does it become an academic
paper that gets published or does it become a performance or both? Right,
So it starts with a literature review, which is where your interview will kind
of tie into finding the foundation for my work well, which we'll look at
what coming out is, defining it, defining the risk factors, protective factors,
all that good stuff, and looking at dance and embodied narratives and how
that can support those protective factors. So that comes into a little paper.
It's not little. I say that very sarcastically. It's not a little paper
very much anyway. Job, then that transitions into a community engagement project.
That's what I've chosen, and I will go out into the queer community that
I am lovingly a part of and figure out what they want to say and
what I want to say, but what they want to say about coming out
stories? What is their story? How do they think? Embody narratives can
help I pull those themes and I put it into a lovely presentation. Ideally
in my heart of hearts, I love to take that into a performance.
Realistically, as a grad student, I can't do that. I do not
have that time or the scope or energy to do that right now. However,
I do want to take that onto stage, onto performance, because I
think performance and having the audience witness stories is a really big part of healing
and coming out in general. Because coming out you have an audience, even
if it's yourself as the audience, you have a second part of relationship with
that, and so I think it would be really beautiful to have a coming
out on stage. There's that performance, there's the audience to witness a story,
maybe feel seen or heard by someone else's story, and then that's relational
there. So that's the dream, but so far it's ending with a little
bit of pulling themes. Yeah, yeah, I mean, my guy,
I'm just like envisioning like a show that's a performance that's just different performers all
sharing their coming out stores, their dads. That would be like so emotional
and just beautiful. I've never seen anything like that. Like I love that.
And with what you're you're studying and you're and this project and everything,
what does that I'm like, again, I obviously you're in school, you're
so young, but what does that maybe look like for do you become a
dance movement therapist? Is that a thing? Is that like more like what
would you like to do? And do do you envision working with the queer
communities? Like being something like that you specifically try to keep doing. Yeah,
so I definitely become a dance movement therapist. That's when I graduate.
I paid the American Dance Therapy Association a little bit of money, and that's
capitalism. But anyway, then I get the letters our DMT, which means
Registered Dance Movement Therapists, and I could practice as a dance therapist. Yeah,
And like I said, DMT goes into so many different populations, so
it is absolutely something that I want to use for community resource for the queer
community. Absolutely. Ah, God, that's incredible. This is so I
love that. Again, I've been doing this podcast for like five and a
half years and I just haven't heard about this, and just like it's so
cool that it exists. It's so cool that it can be used to help
people in this way. Like I'm even thinking now because like about how it
could potentially be helpful for cultures that are traditionally not accepting of sexuality, gender
nonconforming, etc. But are rooted in like dance and movement. Like how
there some cultures were like those things are very tied to the actual culture or
even like the religion or whatever, and maybe there's some sort of synthesis that
can I mean, just like any God, anytime, we have more ways
that we can help people be understanding either of their own coming out journey or
creating allies or getting people to understand you know that like it's okay to be
different. Like that's just so valuable, right, I think sometimes like you
say, is like so historically ancient that I hope that I can That's really
cool. That's really cool, Maddie. Is there anything else that you want
to say? Either about you personally or anything. I just want to make
sure you have all the yeah in the world. Yeah, I'm trying to
think, I to me those three little coming out points, that's what I
encompass as my coming out story that those couple of years. And I just
want to acknowledge that coming out never stops, and it is ongoing, and
everyone has a choice, and I hope that they have the choice in agency
to either remain where they need to be, whether it's come out in their
head or out to others. They have that agency and choice and acknowledgment that
it never stops, but can hopefully continue to grow and be a positive thing
for everybody. And I know it is for me, and that I'm extremely
grateful for. Oh God, so well really beautifully said. And yeah,
I'm trying to dig back in my memory banks. And like I think,
I think by the time I was your age, I was probably saying gay
at that point, but certainly when I was twenty two, I was still
saying that I was by and was still trying to date guys. So like
that, it is very like these things take time, they absolutely evolve,
Like Yeah, it's just it's really interesting to me that for my entire college
experience, for my entire year and a half first relationship, and coming out
of that relationship, I believed I was by and that's fascinating to me.
Like, yeah, so so these things, Yeah, you're like you say,
you never stop, and certainly at a younger age, it's like who
yeah, who knows, who knows? Who knows? In my mind what
I'll you know, identify as in a couple of years, Right, I
think that's so cool and we should have that ability. Cool. God,
it's all about rather than being terrified of that, which unfortunately is a lot
of people's reactions because it's like, ah, it's amorphous. I am scared,
Like I can't point to it and name it, so that creates fear
in me, which is you know, that's a very like lizard brand like
instinct, Like if you don't recognize something, you're scared of it like that
that makes sense. But the more we can try to be like oh that's
chill, like, the better. And I just love I love all the
stuff that you're doing and how I love your personal journey. So yeah,
just thank you so much for talking to me about it, and thank you
for doing that fun interview because it is really fun for me to get to
have it be turned around. Well, I want to say thank you for
being willing to be interviewed. And I have so much fun telling my own
story. It's not off that I tell a story verbally. I'm usually using
my body to do that, so I love to try that. I had
a great time. So thank you, Oh my god that you know this
is so much fun. Thank you. Also, thank you for being my
youngest guest in quite a while. I always like to know what kids are
up to, what the new words are, and what's going on. Yeah,
so so you all know this, But if you would like to find
me on social media, hit up at Lauren Flance on Twitter or Lauren underscore
Flans on Instagram. The podcast, as always is at coming Out Pod.
The hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod. Hey. I've got some patrons who
I adore. They are Carmel Kaz Simone, Chyenne, Michelle l Adri,
Tanya Pooh, Tiya, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Ornandez and Beyond
Clexa dot com and folks. I always say it if you would like to
help the podcast out without spending any money, A really great way to do
that is to rate it five stars. You can rate it five stars on
iTunes or on Spotify, and that's just super super helpful. You can even
leave a little review if you'd like to, on iTunes specifically. This was
so fun. Thank you again, Mattie. It is just such a joy
to talk to you and to hear about something that I didn't even know existed
until you emailed me. So thank you and everybody else. I will see
you next week. Bye.