WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.359 Hey, everybody, welcome to coming out pod y'all. Today we are going 2 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.000 to be talking about dance and movement, and so for the queer root, 3 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:21.839 shout out, shout out to you. If your queer root is Zoe Saldana. 4 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:26.559 Zoe Saldana, now you could have She could be your queer root in 5 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:30.920 many things, depending on your age and what you saw her in. I 6 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:35.920 am thinking specifically because it's the matic. I'm thinking of her in the movie 7 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:41.439 Center Stage, which is a two thousand dance film that, oh my god 8 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:47.280 it is. It's a cult classic. It's not explain it's not like a 9 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:51.079 queer movie, but like it's kind of queer. I mean, all dances, 10 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:55.640 All dance is kind of queer, right, it's the girls dancing together. 11 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.759 Come on, it's an amazing movie. Zoe Saldana is like the cool 12 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:04.519 sort of like rebellious dancer girl in it. You got to see Center Stage 13 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.840 if you haven't seen it. So yeah, just wanted to honor Zoe Saldana's 14 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:14.640 work in Center Stage and all the other amazing things that she has been beautiful 15 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:22.239 and talented in. Okay, so let's jump right in. I have with 16 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.719 me today. My guest is Maddie Kling. Hi, Maddie, thank you 17 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.640 for being here. Hi, I'm so excited to be here, and thank 18 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:36.920 you for having me. I am so thrilled. So basically so, Maddie 19 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:41.840 is a grad student studying dance movement therapy, which is something we will talk 20 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:47.079 about in depth. But Maddie emailed the pod and was like, Hey, 21 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:52.079 I'm doing this project. I was wondering if I could like interview you for 22 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:56.719 it. And I almost never get to be on the other side of an 23 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.879 interview, so I was very excited and immediately was like, yes, please 24 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.159 interview me. And then I was like, also, if you want to 25 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.719 be a guest, I always like, anytime someone reaches out, I'm always 26 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:09.680 like, do you also want to be a guest? But I'm we had 27 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:15.919 never on the pod, we've never really spoken about uh certainly we've never spoken 28 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:21.039 specifically about dance movement therapy, and Mattie's project just sounded so so cool. 29 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.599 Uh, so we're gonna we're gonna talk about the project today. We're gonna 30 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:28.560 obviously talk about Mattie's personal coming out story, but yeah, I jumped at 31 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.800 the chance, and we are coming off of we just did our little interview, 32 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.280 which is really fun. So I sort of feel like I just did 33 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:42.960 like a mini episode and now we're turning it around and now Mattie's doing my 34 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:52.120 episode. So uh yeah, of Maddie, before we even get into how 35 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:53.960 you identify and all that good stuff, do you want to just give like 36 00:02:54.199 --> 00:03:00.719 sort of like a little synopsis of what dance movement therapy is and what you're 37 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.639 studying and what your project is and all that good stuff. Oh yeah, 38 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:10.759 I'd absolutely love to. So dance movement therapy is under the umbrella of creative 39 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:19.159 arts therapy, which includes things like music therapy, art therapy, narrative therapy, 40 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:24.400 poetry therapy, drama therapy, and then dance movement therapy. That's my 41 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:31.240 world, and dance movement therapy can happen within any population and it has so 42 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:38.240 many different goals, but some include the mind, body connection, grounding, 43 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:47.280 expression, let's see, identity development, so many more that I can't even 44 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.319 think of off the top of my head, and that all comes from the 45 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:55.039 body. We use our body as our resource to achieve those goals, and 46 00:03:55.159 --> 00:04:01.120 that's really rooted in dance movement therapy. Using our body as a resource to 47 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:10.879 achieve those goals, and so my work kind of follows the self identity expression 48 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:18.560 storytelling route, and I'm looking at how dance movement therapy can provide protective factors 49 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:26.079 and minimize risk factors for the queer community by allowing them to tell their coming 50 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:32.160 out story through dance and movement. So that's the project. Ah, yeah, 51 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:38.160 amazing. That is so cool in so many ways. And it came 52 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:43.560 up. I had asked Mattie during our our Opposite Sees interview right before this 53 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.360 if if, as far as as she knew, if she was the first 54 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.519 person doing something like this, and Maddie did It really made a great point 55 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:58.800 of acknowledging that in terms of academia, academia can often leave out marginalized folks 56 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.399 less privilege. So it's it's kind of impossible to really know the breath of 57 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:06.120 work that's been done, but in terms of like actual like academia that you 58 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:10.000 can like google or whatever. Yeah, as far as Mattie knows, she 59 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.600 is the first person to do a project like this, which is just so 60 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.079 so cool. Yeah, and I'm so honored to get to be like a 61 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:23.000 small part of that with the interview that we just did. Yeah, and 62 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:28.920 my question in terms of dance movement therapy, is this like a relatively recent, 63 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.240 I don't know, field of study, or is it like as old 64 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:34.399 as the hills? And I've just never heard about it, But like I 65 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:39.920 know about like like felt in Christ or like god, what's the other one 66 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.680 that actors are always doing? Like there's some that I've that I've heard of 67 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.439 in terms of like body movement stuff, but i never heard of dance movement 68 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.399 therapy, so I'm curious. Yeah, so I always like to say that, 69 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:57.040 no, it's not new. All across the world, dance has been 70 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:04.439 used as a healing mechanism forever. Like dancing, a movement is ingrained into 71 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:10.399 our lives, even in our like cellular level, So no, it's not 72 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:15.240 new. However, the field in air quotes, field of dance movement therapy 73 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:25.759 is relatively new from the sixty seventies and developed in for the Western culture. 74 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:30.240 That kind of part of dance movement therapy is a little bit newer ish, 75 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.399 and it continues to grow and find new ways to become mainstream and finding new 76 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:43.920 ways to adapt to different populations. And yeah, yeah, this is I'm 77 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.160 so excited to talk to you about this because I've been very candid on the 78 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.360 podcast about how I am one of those people who is sadly very kind of 79 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:59.199 disconnected from my body, my physical meat casing, and it's something that I, 80 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:00.759 you know, I try to get better with. I do struggle with 81 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:04.680 it. I am very intellectual, very sort of like living in my head, 82 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:09.279 and my body is sort of like a secondary like oh yeah, I 83 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.759 have this body I forgot And my former co host Nicole was like, I 84 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:15.920 wouldn't say she's the opposite. She's also very heady and intellectual, but she 85 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.519 is so rooted in her body and connected to her body, and dance specifically 86 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:28.360 is like such a point of like she she would say, like if I 87 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.000 haven't danced in like a couple months or something like I have to go out 88 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.839 and spend a Saturday night dancing, or like I feel like I'm losing it 89 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:38.879 and I'm like, wow, I am always on my couch. So we 90 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:43.079 were very different in that respect, but like, I'm so I'm so excited 91 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:48.839 to just talk to you about all of this stuff because I struggle to like 92 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:54.319 have my body be more connected to the rest of me, which is the 93 00:07:54.360 --> 00:08:00.720 hilarious sense. I feel like so many people in Western society, especially in 94 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:05.560 the United States, like that disconnect is so very real and so very prevalent. 95 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:11.120 Yeah, that it is difficult then to find our way back to that 96 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:16.000 mind body connection. And I think that's where dance movement therapy can be so 97 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.519 rich and valuable. It's like a bridge to that instead of like immediately doing 98 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.639 that, which can be harmful or not feel well, it kind of, 99 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:30.399 yeah, trickles in so that you can feel some sort of safety or bravery 100 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:35.679 within your body instead of just dropping in, which may not be the most 101 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.240 safe option. I love that. Yeah. I have famously said in the 102 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.120 past, like, especially during college when there are a lot of parties involved 103 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.759 dancing, I was like, the only time I'm comfortable dancing or feel like 104 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.080 I'm any good at dancing is when I'm drunk. I am like, that 105 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.039 speaks to a whole other thing. But like, how cool would it be 106 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.320 to be able to feel that way without having to get drunk first? So 107 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:03.600 I love the idea of something bridging the cab yep. Yeah, But dancing 108 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.679 can often make me like I remember when I was younger, it would make 109 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.240 me stressed if I was like if like some friends were like going out dancing. 110 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:13.480 I was like, oh, no, people will see my body move. 111 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:15.720 I don't even want to see my body move, So like, yeah, 112 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:20.840 it's just really interesting how how this stuff can maybe come naturally to some 113 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:24.919 people and then people like me, it's like ew, And I'm wondering, 114 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.879 are you yourself a dancer or a former dancer, or like what's your specific 115 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:35.679 relationship to dance in general? Yeah, I would say current dancer. I'm 116 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.399 still dancing. I've been dancing since I was five, so that's like eighteen 117 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.720 and a half years now. If you want to do the math on that 118 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.759 even tell my age, but maybe not right now. But yeah, I 119 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.759 still dance, still take classes, have done a lot of different styles. 120 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.039 I'm so I'm so jealous, and just I had people who that's amazing to 121 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:07.440 me. I love it. Okay, okay, So so Maddie, how 122 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:18.559 do you identify? Great question? I identify as queer by demisexual, cisgendered 123 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:26.480 woman, white woman, currently not disabled. And yeah, that's where I'll 124 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:31.879 cap it for now. Ah. I love wow, I love that. 125 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.639 I also love yeah I did just it took me a minute, but I 126 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.919 did the math in my head. And so you are certainly one of the 127 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:43.879 younger guests that I've had at and I love I love I love the I 128 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.440 don't know if it would be a micro label, but I love this specificity 129 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.720 that went into breaking that down. I love that you're saying, how did 130 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:56.440 did you phrase it currently? Not disabled? Am I saying that correctly? 131 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.240 Or like? Yeah, I just love the acknowledgment. Uh yeah, especially 132 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.480 as someone who deals with the body and movement like that. I just I 133 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.799 love it. I love everything you said. Can you will you? Will 134 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.639 you run through the first part of it one more time for me so that 135 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.000 I can zero in on anything I might have questions about. Yeah, so 136 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:28.000 queer's like the overarching that I use. Yeah, bisexual and demisexual I perse 137 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.120 out, and then I'm sis gender, which is gender identity, which we 138 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:37.200 all know can impact sexual orientation. So that's why I put that in there 139 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.519 for sure. Thank you so much. Yeah, demisexual is something I'd love, 140 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.879 I'd love to dig into. I've said often on the podcast that I 141 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:50.000 think demisexual or demi romantic, like I'm never sort of sure about, but 142 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:52.879 I feel like one of those is probably right for me. But yeah, 143 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.799 let's let's talk about all of it as it comes up. Uh, where 144 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:05.000 did things start for you? Where are you from? Yeah? I like 145 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:13.440 thinking about my coming out story because of my dummy sexualness. I did not 146 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:20.200 have crushes for the longest time, like until even late college. However, 147 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:26.679 in retrospect, I was like, Oh, everything lines up, and I 148 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:33.320 knew the term bisexual fit even before I even had crushes, like probably late 149 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:39.320 high school, early high school. So that kind of all intermeshes together. 150 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:46.360 So it's a little bit like doesn't really have like a flash beginning point per 151 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.159 se, but kind of like a meltz into my life. But I think 152 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:56.919 the first part maybe is like late high school. Oh my god, wait, 153 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.360 so can I ask how did I love that? You're saying that you 154 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:09.200 had a like you knew about bisexuality but weren't having crushes. So what did 155 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:15.200 that like look like for you if they weren't crushes per se? Was it 156 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:20.360 like an esthetic attraction thing where you were like, I like looking at all 157 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.440 kinds of people are like what did that? Yeah, I'm so interested in 158 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:30.519 the not crushes but still knowing. Yeah, I like saying demisexual. There's 159 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:35.080 like demisexual because I didn't have sexual feelings, but I am absolutely a hopeless 160 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:43.559 romantic and nice. So those kind of like dreaminess feelings. So that's why 161 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.080 I didn't. I don't really I don't really have a crush per se because 162 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.000 I didn't want anything to happen. I didn't want to pursue these people. 163 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.840 But I was like, h dreaminess. Cut, that's the vibe a little 164 00:13:54.840 --> 00:14:00.480 bit. Oh, I love that. And you're talking about like real people, 165 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.960 like in your life at school or something like that. It sounds like 166 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:09.519 like those kinds of feelings. Okay. Was there was there anything with like 167 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.879 celebrities or like characters on TV or anything like that, or because you are 168 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.960 demisexual, was that not really figuring into it because you're like I don't know 169 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.080 these people. Yeah, no exactly. I was like, I still don't 170 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:31.399 really get celebrity crushes because it just doesn't really translate to me as Okay. 171 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:37.720 I will say though, like fictionally, that also kind of helped me with 172 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.720 my bisexuality because you do get to know characters really intimately. Yeah, so 173 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.600 I will say fictionally, I could have maybe crushes. I'll put also that 174 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.320 in air quotes. I'm not really sure if i'd call it a crush for 175 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:56.480 me, but there was a little bit more that I'm gonna call it dreaminess 176 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.840 again. I don't know why I'm coming back to that, but that, 177 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.799 No, I love that. Yeah, this is and it's also why I'm 178 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.440 like, see, I don't know if Debbie sexual or Debbie robantic is right 179 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.039 for me as someone who's like very obsessed with Rachel Vice. I'm like, 180 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:16.200 so that must mean but like I I'm sure it manifests differently and everybody, 181 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.000 so it's just really cool to hear about it. But yeah, so I 182 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.440 think you said was it late high school or like when? Yeah, and 183 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:31.600 it was always for it sounds like whomever not according to gender did that? 184 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.919 Was that a source of like like oh I don't feel I'm scared this might 185 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.320 mean something bad? Or was it just like a fact of life and it 186 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.320 didn't bother you? Like what was Yeah? I think at first, like 187 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:50.440 before late high school, I was like whatever, didn't really matter. And 188 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.759 then at some point in late high school, my friend came out to me 189 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:02.240 as bisexual. And at that point I was starting to get like understand myself 190 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.279 a little bit more and have a little bit more questions. And once she 191 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.679 said that, I immediately after started being like, well, do I like 192 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.919 boys? Do I like girls? Do I like no? One like that 193 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:21.799 just constantly was in my brain after cycle after cycle after cycle. So like, 194 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.879 once I heard her say that term, I was like, WHOA. 195 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.240 Mine was kind of broken a little bit, but also gave me a lot 196 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:34.120 to think about. And that's kind of that's where it really started to really 197 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.960 explore sexual identity in that way. And that's kind of why I say that's 198 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.559 the ground zero, if you will, for all of these questions, and 199 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:52.519 were your friends at this point like dating? What was the and did you 200 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.679 not have any innswerts in that or were you like I should do this because 201 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.519 everyone else is doing it and I don't want like a big spotlight on me 202 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.759 or a lot of questions like how did that all? I was lucky that 203 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.319 in my high school there weren't there wasn't for some reason, like that much 204 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.519 dating, so like it just like, wasn't that big a deal? Yeah, 205 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:15.319 if you weren't dating. But let's see, I'm trying to think in 206 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:21.279 my friend group there no one really dated, so there wasn't that pressure. 207 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.160 And also I was friends with a lot of out queer people in high school 208 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:32.279 already, which I think gave me a safety to think about those questions. 209 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.759 So I didn't have, at least to my knowledge, I didn't have pressure 210 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:41.000 to be heteronormative, which was kind of relieving. I did kind of have 211 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.279 a pressure to be like, oh, I have a crush and maybe I'll 212 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.720 come up with just someone that maybe would fit and pretend to have a crush 213 00:17:48.759 --> 00:18:00.640 at some points, but never pressure to date or really go that heteronormative path, 214 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.119 which I think I'm really fortunate and privileged to have that experience too. 215 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:11.599 But yeah, no, that's that's amazing. You're reminding me of a former 216 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:18.039 guest. She's an uk asexual activist er at Yasmin and she I remember her 217 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.960 talking about when she was in like high school or something, the Twilight movies 218 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.599 and how it was like do you like Jacob or do you like Edward? 219 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:26.920 And she was like, I didn't give a shit about either one of them, 220 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.000 but I just arbitrarily picked one because I knew I had to. I 221 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.920 just like didn't want people. So I was like, I don't even remember 222 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:37.119 who she ended up picking, but it was like she literally did not care, 223 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:40.759 but was just like, I'm going to say one so that people do 224 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.799 not think I'm weird for not liking one or the other, and it's like, 225 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.240 I'm so glad that you didn't. It sounds like have that much of 226 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:53.400 that experience of like yeah, pushed on you, right exactly. I distinctly 227 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:57.160 remember, I think this was second grade. There was a new kid that 228 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:02.839 came to my school. All the girls were raving over him. Oh my 229 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.720 god, this person is so cute, like don't you like him? And 230 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:11.799 I'm sitting in the corner being like yeah, I guess, like side eyeing 231 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.079 and not sharing that sentiment at all. And I was like, well, 232 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.319 I don't want to be left out, so I'll just say yeah, I 233 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:29.799 have a crush. But in reality I was like nah, yeah, yeah, 234 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:36.720 yeah, Okay. So what happens I guess for college? Did you 235 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.839 go far from home or like, or were you still living at home? 236 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:44.759 What was your situation once you once you were out of high school? Yeah, 237 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.359 so I stayed in the same state. I'm from Colorado, by the 238 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.079 way. I don't know if that matters much to context, but I was 239 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:59.559 about an hour and a half away. I would say, not much changed 240 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.720 and textually from like high school to college, except for maybe the fact that 241 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.160 there was a little sprinkle of freedom. And so I still had these running 242 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:17.079 thoughts and all of this curiosity starting to like bubble up in me. And 243 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.920 it was when I went away to college that my cousin came out to me, 244 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:29.480 and that also further furthered those questions. And let me tell you, 245 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.680 this is a great story as well, a story within a story. So 246 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.480 one night I'm just sitting calmly and I get a text from my cousin. 247 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.680 It goes, can I tell you something? And in my head I said, 248 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.200 oh, they're going to come out. I don't know where that thought 249 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:51.200 came from, but I that's literally inner monologue was they're going to come out 250 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.519 too. I said, yep, you can tell me anything. Go redhead. 251 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:02.240 And next thing is is just I'm gay sent right to me and I 252 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:10.559 was like fist punching the air like so it started for that and I am 253 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:15.319 so excited and I was like secretly, I was like, can can I 254 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.000 tell you something? Back? They were like sure, It's like I knew 255 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.319 and they were like how. And the best part is I was like, 256 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:29.279 you cheered so loud at the Halsey concert when Halsey was like, okay, 257 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.400 let's cheer for the queers, and next to me, my cousin is screaming, 258 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.960 and I was like a big tell, that's just how I knew. 259 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.599 And it was a great moment. But from then on my brain just kept 260 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:48.319 going and going and added layer everything my cousin does thir a year older than 261 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:56.559 me, I also must do so, just maybe not consciously, but it 262 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:00.400 just seems like that's the pattern they do. Something kind of follow right along. 263 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.759 So my brands continue continually thinking about these questions but still kind of like 264 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.680 in the minutias of it, not quite coming out yet, but yeah, 265 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:19.599 sure, sure, okay, and and so you're in I'm trying to like 266 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:27.039 so my experience I remember of being in college so long ago. It's depressing, 267 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:37.359 but I had a lot of anxiety I guess about like if it mattered 268 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.559 that I was a virgin and hadn't had sex and I hadn't even fully figured 269 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:47.400 out at all my identity. I think at that point I was I thought 270 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.039 I was bisexual, but I hadn't like really come out to people, but 271 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.880 I was. I remember being really stressed that like, uh, this isn't 272 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.640 like high school, where a lot of my friend group were the same as 273 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.599 me, Like oh, some of them had sex, but not ever, 274 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:04.079 not to the point where I was like in the minority. But then at 275 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.880 college, especially as I got older, I was like, ugh, is 276 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.000 it weird that I'm a version of people gonna think I'm weird? Or do 277 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.359 I have to tell people? Like are they going to be able to tell 278 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.799 by looking at me? And that was like such a point of stress. 279 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.319 And I famously, as I've said on the podcast, didn't lose my virginity 280 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.200 until I hate that term. I'm trying not to use that term. I 281 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:27.359 did not have sex with somebody until my senior year of college, which was 282 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:33.279 like pretty late quote unquote in terms of like certainly in terms of what you 283 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:37.319 see on like TV and movies, but like also at that time in history, 284 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.160 like it by that point, like most people had had sex. And 285 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.880 that was just like so kind of weighing on me and stressful, and for 286 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.680 someone who knows, even if you don't have the language that you're a demi 287 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:55.279 sexual, I'm wondering if that was also like really stressful for you. I'm 288 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.880 hoping it's gotten better in the many years since I was in college, but 289 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:03.039 I don't know. College is a very sex heavy environment in my experience. 290 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:10.880 Yeah, I still I share that sentiment. I was absolutely stressed, and 291 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:15.759 I think that added a layer of like the internal biophobia of like well, 292 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.640 how do you know, or even at internal homophobia at that, like how 293 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:26.440 do you know nort had sex? Like that was also a constant thought that 294 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:27.960 played into this. I was like, well, how can you be sure? 295 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.920 And I at the time did not know that was internalized messaging at all, 296 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:38.799 and so I just was like, well, great, now I'm extra 297 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.960 not sure because of what people are saying, and it is stressful, and 298 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.720 I have no sexual attraction to anyone, so there's no way that I am 299 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:53.680 going to find out, and so yeah, I kind of just had to 300 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:59.200 trust myself. That's kind of like a little bit later on in the coming 301 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:07.279 out part of my story, like to myself is like fully trusting that what 302 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.559 my truth in my head is is in fact truth, whether it doesn't need 303 00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:23.319 to be confirmed. So definitely stressed, Absolutely absolutely, that's sort of yeah. 304 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.000 And just for the record, it's worth repeating. I've said it, 305 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.119 Nicole, and I used to say this, and I've said this many times. 306 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.920 I will repeat myself. Someone can be any type of sexuality, not 307 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.200 just like buyer Pan. But like even gay, having never had sex with 308 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.920 like that is not a prerequisite, because I've spoken on this pot to so 309 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:52.440 many asexual people who will still identify, like it is absolutely not a prerequisite, 310 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.839 but it is so especially in college where it's like sex sex sex sex 311 00:25:55.880 --> 00:26:00.559 sex. It's just like so stressful those thoughts, and I have so much 312 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:07.079 empathy, sympathy all the words for a sexual folks who are like in that 313 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.599 pressure cooker as well, because my god, I viscerally remember that feeling. 314 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:21.079 But yeah, yeah, that's a good message. Oh it's so important. 315 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:26.559 It's so important that we parse out like the act of sex. And then 316 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.319 again it's like, well what does sex mean as it We're like obvious, 317 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:32.920 it's different depending on how you have sex. So it's just such a weird 318 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:38.640 meter to use anyway. But yeah, absolutely, people identifying as by or 319 00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:47.599 PAN who have never had sex with someone who we would be like that is 320 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:51.000 the you know, textbook definition of it, like not a thing. I 321 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:52.079 said, that's so clunky, but you know what I mean, Like, 322 00:26:52.160 --> 00:27:00.279 it doesn't It absolutely is not a pre requisite for identifying. So yeah, 323 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.279 so you're so you're so young. I want to be like, keep going, 324 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.039 where does it? But then I'm like, oh my god, we're 325 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.240 already up to the age you are because you're sorry, I'm so fu Yeah, 326 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:18.160 that's a good point to bring out that I know I'm still finding out 327 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:25.279 all of the little niches of my own identity as a small twenty three year 328 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:33.359 old, but it feels like it was condensed in this first year, second 329 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:40.079 year ish of college. Speaking of like sex and dating in college, that 330 00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:47.279 is like so forward that that's like just on everyone's mind. I distinctly remember, 331 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.960 I don't know how this came about, but I was on like creating 332 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.640 a profile on Bumble. I wasn't even interested in dating, but here I 333 00:27:55.720 --> 00:28:00.440 was creating a profile on Bumble, and I'm like putting in my name, 334 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.599 putting in my email, dress, putting in my age. And it comes 335 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.200 to preference and it said man woman both. And I just stare at that 336 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:19.400 page for so long. I was like, I don't I kind of know, 337 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:26.599 but I don't know. And I just remember that moment of seeing man 338 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:33.279 woman both. Instinctually I came to this idea of it's absolutely both, and 339 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:40.000 that was like the coming out to self moment I like to call it. 340 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:42.240 I was like, you know what, this is really scary, so I'm 341 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:47.839 not going to complete this profile right now. But it is absolutely one hundred 342 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:55.720 percent both and like full spectrum of genders both. So that was cool. 343 00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.599 That's one of the best stories. Usually dating app stories are like not great, 344 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.599 but that look at a dating app being useful in a way that it's 345 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.839 maybe not intended, but like it helped you. That's a beautiful thing, 346 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:14.359 right, Who would have thought that? I love that? Yeah? Yeah, 347 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:18.920 yeah? And had how recently ish was that? Are we talking just 348 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:23.200 like a couple of years ago? That that's sort of yeah, I guess 349 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:30.759 like to me, it feels far away, so like four years ago maybe, 350 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:33.759 Oh okay, but that's a little bit No, that's a little bit 351 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.240 of time. Sure, Yeah, so kind of close, I guess, 352 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.039 in like a full lifespan kind of vibe, not short time. But for 353 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:48.319 me and my time now, I've grown a lot since that that moment of 354 00:29:48.599 --> 00:30:00.160 intuition or insight i'd like to say, but from there that spark, it 355 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:06.720 just started to like bubble up and like solidify somewhat in my mind. And 356 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:10.400 the friend that came out to me as by she was the first person I 357 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:15.079 told that I'm bisexual, which I think is a great roundabout moment, and 358 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:22.680 I distinctly remember we were at a full place because we always meet over fuf 359 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:27.039 and I just say, oh, and like, by the way, I'm 360 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:33.799 bisexual, and she breaks out into a big grin and that just made me 361 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:40.119 feel a little warm and snugly, and I again, I'm so privileged to 362 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:48.319 have that warm, confirming reaction to my first coming out to another person that 363 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:56.720 I treasure that memory so much. So, Oh god, that is a 364 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.119 beautiful full circle. That's so cool because it's like, you know, oh, 365 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:04.079 it's gonna go well like and you get to sort of like pay it 366 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:08.640 forward like they came out of the just I don't know. That's really love 367 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.920 it, that's really love. Yeah, that was like the first person I 368 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.599 told. And in my head then I started like tallying who else I wanted 369 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:23.039 to tell from that moment. And I have a really close relationship to my 370 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.000 mom and so she was like, number one, I'm not going to tell 371 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.960 anyone else until I tell her like that that's the next part of my foundation 372 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:37.680 that I need to feel solid on my feet, so to speak. And 373 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.359 so this is like that was like first year of college, second year of 374 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.599 college. That was my mountain to climb, was telling her, and every 375 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.279 little moment we had together alone, it was like in the back of my 376 00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.000 mind, I was like, just spit it out, just spit it out, 377 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:57.279 It'll be okay. That's what went on in the little behind my ear 378 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:04.400 kind of telling me. And it didn't happen for so long. So this 379 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:09.359 is like, I would say, maybe six months of this ringing in my 380 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:15.119 ear. I just really want to tell my mom, but I was scared 381 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:20.519 and apprehensive. Even though I knew that there would be a positive reaction, 382 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.759 there's still that, yeah, I would call it like apprehension to it. 383 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:36.000 And so it all accumulated these six months again that bubbling over kind of sensation. 384 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:39.160 And again I'm on my phone because I'm a gen zer, so I'm 385 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:45.319 going to fully own that. I'm on my phone scrolling Refinery twenty nine and 386 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:51.400 I'm looking through all of it was like a guide to sexual orientations or something 387 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.480 like that is that kind of article, And I'm scrolling through, I'm reading 388 00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:00.160 all of them. I get to bisexual and like tossing my yes, I 389 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:05.480 love that makes sense fits. I'm so excited about that, and then I 390 00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:10.559 get to demisexual and I'm reading it and again my jaw drops and I'm like, 391 00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.440 ah, huh, I didn't know this existed. And I felt again 392 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:23.319 affirmed, and that I think inertia pushed me into calling my mom, and 393 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:29.400 again I just nonchalantly was like, you know, I like men, I 394 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:35.359 like women. It's called being bisexual, and I'm also demi sexual. And 395 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.960 then I started crying because bubble of emotion, of positive emotion, all that 396 00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:45.119 anxiety released. And honestly, I do not remember what my mom said back, 397 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.200 because it was just a bubble over of emotion. I know what was 398 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:52.759 positive. I know I felt supported, and that's all I can remember from 399 00:33:52.799 --> 00:34:00.880 that Moment's amazing. I love that. Do you remember if she was like, 400 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.960 I'm so supportive, what is demisexual? Because I'm wondering, like I 401 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.320 feel like she probably hadn't heard of that, like you had only just heard 402 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:14.920 of that, yes, And she's a very academic focus and so she absolutely 403 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.400 began to just ask me a whole bunch of questions about it, and I 404 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.400 was like, I just read this definition. I'm not prepared to answer. 405 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:30.119 Yeah, I'm like reading from ice screenshot at that page of what demisexual definition 406 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:35.000 was, I'm just reading from the screenshot and like trying the best I can. 407 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.840 And subsequently, I feel like every time, like every few weeks she 408 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:44.119 called, she'd be like, remind me what your identities are again, like 409 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:47.159 every couple of weeks, which I absolutely loved, but I also am like, 410 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:51.960 I know, you know. At one point I was just like, 411 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:53.920 I know, you can tell me, and she did. She knows. 412 00:34:54.320 --> 00:35:02.320 She just kept asking to be supportive. So wow, that's adorable. Okay, 413 00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.880 okay, And so so that's like three ish years ago sounds like yeah. 414 00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:16.199 And so once you read and sort of absorbed the demisexual did that label? 415 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:22.239 Did that change anything for you in terms of how you were thinking about 416 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:28.480 Did that make you feel like, oh, maybe now I'm interested in like 417 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.039 like dating or people now that I understand that, I like the way I 418 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:37.199 maybe see it and function like did that free you up at all? Absolutely? 419 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:45.360 Yeah. There was that sense of like blossoming almost and gave me such 420 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:51.880 I think maybe the word I will use is relief for maybe feeling like an 421 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.960 outcast in the past. I'm like, oh, it was just my brain 422 00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:00.639 being my brain. I mean, there was some thing I of course had 423 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.760 to work through it in my own regard, but gave relief, maybe some 424 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:10.360 clarity. Yeah, so and help me into the future, for sure. 425 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.079 I'm so glad to hear that. That is why. You know. The 426 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.000 thing I always say about labels is like, if you don't want labels, 427 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:21.679 that is totally fine. Nobody has to use them. You don't owe labels 428 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.920 to anybody. But for some of us, labels are so much more a 429 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.159 comfort than like, I know, for some people they feel restricting and you 430 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:31.400 feel like you're in a box. But for some people, depending on how 431 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:36.599 your brain works or your personality, they can be really comforting once you find 432 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.840 ones that feel right for you. Uh. And I'm so glad that you 433 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:43.679 had that. I'm just so glad you had that experience, Like that's what 434 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.559 they're there for. That's yeah, that's the best case scenario for it. 435 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:52.400 Yeah, for all the labels that we have. Yeah, and yeah it 436 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.920 speaking of labels, kind of going ahead just a tiny bit, but yeah, 437 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.840 it's obviously evolved. I keep well, maybe not evolved, but it 438 00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:10.559 just keeps adding, like I keep adding past first buy and then DEMI and 439 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:20.679 I've added queer to as like a liberating word to use in the space and 440 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.920 to bring that into spaces. Yeah, agreed, I fully agree. Yeah, 441 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:30.159 yeah, yeah, So do you want to talk more about like how 442 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:37.400 things evolved after? I'd love to, because I have a lot of roundabout 443 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:45.119 ways that things came for me. But after I told my mom, well, 444 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.239 like I said, that was the foundation, and then I began to 445 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:54.440 feel a lot more stable, and I practice using language and other spaces in 446 00:37:54.519 --> 00:38:00.639 more space of like anonymity that I knew people wouldn't see me again, so 447 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.480 that I was a little bit safer. And then I told my cousin, 448 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:13.039 and we had recently moved in together, so we were just out shopping and 449 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.639 I we're in van, a van store, which again I feel like is 450 00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:21.360 very by of me to be in a van store to come out to my 451 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:28.440 cousin. But I just lean over again my nonchalantness. That's I guess how 452 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.760 I'm coping with this and probably will continue to cope with coming up. But 453 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:39.199 I just nonchalantly I'm like, well, I'm bisexual. And their response also 454 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:43.800 won for the books. They just no words, They just hugged me. 455 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:50.800 And then a few days later they deliver me a package and it's a bye 456 00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:57.920 flag. And I still have that flag hanging up, and I remember pinning 457 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.840 up that flag and feeling such like that was the first time I felt chills 458 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:10.119 from being able to fully see externally my identity and uh uh, it was 459 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:15.920 such I can't even describe the moment, like there was chills and happy tears, 460 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:22.559 and it was just a very culminating moment to have that flag pinned up 461 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:30.760 in my room, like of being proud and really out and desplaying myself. 462 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.559 Yeah, is this post if you're moving in together? Are you still in 463 00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:38.599 college like living off campus? Or have you graduated by this point? Yeah? 464 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:45.119 That was still. That was at the beginning ish of junior year, 465 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:50.079 so yeah, I was off campus. I had a couple of years left. 466 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:58.000 And from that moment on, I felt more comfortable to just be authentically 467 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:02.679 myself in other spaces. One time, at a dance concert I was doing, 468 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:08.559 I was drawing a poster for something and I famously cannot draw a straight 469 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.840 line, and I was, you know, my shaky hands going all over 470 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.239 the paper, and I turned to my friend like, this line is as 471 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:20.880 straight as I am. I was like my first queer joke I ever made. 472 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:22.800 I was very proud at that moment, and I did get a few 473 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:29.039 chuckles, and that was the best, the best queer jokes I've ever made. 474 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:30.519 Oh good. That is such a big part of it, though, 475 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.159 is that when you get comfortable enough to start like making jokes or just like 476 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:44.559 casually offhandedly referring to it in conversation like that's a huge milestone. Oh that's 477 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:52.480 awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to think what else happens next? 478 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:58.599 Like yeah, Like I said, everything just kept evolving. Started telling people 479 00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.199 again in my nonchalant tone, be like yeah, I'm by. Yeah, 480 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:07.599 started using the label queer a lot more, especially in grad school, to 481 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:13.760 encompass both By and Demi within one word instead of trying to say that every 482 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:19.800 time. I didn't even think of that. Yeah about encompassing Yeah, yeah, 483 00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:25.119 that's very cool. Yeah. And so finding that space, I started 484 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:34.679 going to Brave meetings at my grad school. They're called Brave Cats for Creative 485 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:38.440 Arts Therapists, that's the acronym. So yeah, I just started to be 486 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:45.480 more authentically myself and kind of owning and being proud of my identities, which 487 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:53.679 is it has been very healing. I want to say, that's like a 488 00:41:53.719 --> 00:42:02.480 healing part and growing part of myself. Yeah. And in terms of dance, 489 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:08.000 have you ever like, do you feel like you used dance to help 490 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.639 you, like either get more comfortable with coming out or to tell your own 491 00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:20.599 coming out story? Like what what made gave you the idea for this project? 492 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:22.199 Was it? Like it started internally and you were like, what if 493 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:29.000 I did this for other people? Are like, yeah, I think the 494 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:37.119 most the most comfortable space I felt being out was dance. I major did 495 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:43.559 dance in undergrad and in that space, I felt super comfortable being myself. 496 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:50.800 And so that's like, I think just the space of artists creates that super 497 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:55.960 accepting, welcoming environment that I felt safe going into and that definitely helped. 498 00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:05.880 I witnessed other coming out journeys in my peers through dance, even from like 499 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:12.320 my wreck dancing when I was super young. A lot of those those people 500 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:16.360 that I danced with came out in college, and seeing their journeys has bolstered 501 00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:30.039 my feelings. And I've definitely used my dance in choreography to express my identity 502 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:36.639 and have witnessed other people doing that, And so it's all encompassed into support 503 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:43.639 and expression and just I don't know. I'm doing like a wavy thing with 504 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.119 my arms because I'm a dancer. I want to express myself. It's so 505 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:52.559 cool how you effortlessly. Yeah. No, I love that, I really 506 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:57.440 do. Yeah. And so okay, so you talked about how your this 507 00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:02.280 project is ongoing until June, which is prime, and like, what does 508 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:08.000 something like this sort of look like ultimately? Like what is the scope of 509 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.719 it? I know I just got interviewed, but like, does it is 510 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.639 there what? I've been out of college for so long that I don't know 511 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:21.760 what stuff, yeah, ultimately looks like it. Does it become an academic 512 00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:25.000 paper that gets published or does it become a performance or both? Right, 513 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.280 So it starts with a literature review, which is where your interview will kind 514 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:36.119 of tie into finding the foundation for my work well, which we'll look at 515 00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:40.480 what coming out is, defining it, defining the risk factors, protective factors, 516 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:47.000 all that good stuff, and looking at dance and embodied narratives and how 517 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:52.440 that can support those protective factors. So that comes into a little paper. 518 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:58.320 It's not little. I say that very sarcastically. It's not a little paper 519 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:07.480 very much anyway. Job, then that transitions into a community engagement project. 520 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:12.599 That's what I've chosen, and I will go out into the queer community that 521 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.679 I am lovingly a part of and figure out what they want to say and 522 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:21.079 what I want to say, but what they want to say about coming out 523 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.880 stories? What is their story? How do they think? Embody narratives can 524 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:31.079 help I pull those themes and I put it into a lovely presentation. Ideally 525 00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.920 in my heart of hearts, I love to take that into a performance. 526 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.519 Realistically, as a grad student, I can't do that. I do not 527 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:45.199 have that time or the scope or energy to do that right now. However, 528 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:50.679 I do want to take that onto stage, onto performance, because I 529 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.719 think performance and having the audience witness stories is a really big part of healing 530 00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.800 and coming out in general. Because coming out you have an audience, even 531 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:04.880 if it's yourself as the audience, you have a second part of relationship with 532 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.000 that, and so I think it would be really beautiful to have a coming 533 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:13.960 out on stage. There's that performance, there's the audience to witness a story, 534 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:19.880 maybe feel seen or heard by someone else's story, and then that's relational 535 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.320 there. So that's the dream, but so far it's ending with a little 536 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:28.639 bit of pulling themes. Yeah, yeah, I mean, my guy, 537 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:35.719 I'm just like envisioning like a show that's a performance that's just different performers all 538 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:40.119 sharing their coming out stores, their dads. That would be like so emotional 539 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.440 and just beautiful. I've never seen anything like that. Like I love that. 540 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:52.119 And with what you're you're studying and you're and this project and everything, 541 00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:55.760 what does that I'm like, again, I obviously you're in school, you're 542 00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:02.920 so young, but what does that maybe look like for do you become a 543 00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:08.039 dance movement therapist? Is that a thing? Is that like more like what 544 00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:13.280 would you like to do? And do do you envision working with the queer 545 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:20.880 communities? Like being something like that you specifically try to keep doing. Yeah, 546 00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:25.320 so I definitely become a dance movement therapist. That's when I graduate. 547 00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:31.039 I paid the American Dance Therapy Association a little bit of money, and that's 548 00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:37.719 capitalism. But anyway, then I get the letters our DMT, which means 549 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:43.480 Registered Dance Movement Therapists, and I could practice as a dance therapist. Yeah, 550 00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.480 And like I said, DMT goes into so many different populations, so 551 00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:53.440 it is absolutely something that I want to use for community resource for the queer 552 00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:00.760 community. Absolutely. Ah, God, that's incredible. This is so I 553 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.039 love that. Again, I've been doing this podcast for like five and a 554 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:07.400 half years and I just haven't heard about this, and just like it's so 555 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:12.599 cool that it exists. It's so cool that it can be used to help 556 00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:17.280 people in this way. Like I'm even thinking now because like about how it 557 00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:28.360 could potentially be helpful for cultures that are traditionally not accepting of sexuality, gender 558 00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:34.840 nonconforming, etc. But are rooted in like dance and movement. Like how 559 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:39.320 there some cultures were like those things are very tied to the actual culture or 560 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:44.280 even like the religion or whatever, and maybe there's some sort of synthesis that 561 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:47.519 can I mean, just like any God, anytime, we have more ways 562 00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:52.360 that we can help people be understanding either of their own coming out journey or 563 00:48:52.400 --> 00:49:00.239 creating allies or getting people to understand you know that like it's okay to be 564 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.199 different. Like that's just so valuable, right, I think sometimes like you 565 00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:09.880 say, is like so historically ancient that I hope that I can That's really 566 00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:15.199 cool. That's really cool, Maddie. Is there anything else that you want 567 00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:19.239 to say? Either about you personally or anything. I just want to make 568 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:24.760 sure you have all the yeah in the world. Yeah, I'm trying to 569 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.159 think, I to me those three little coming out points, that's what I 570 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:35.599 encompass as my coming out story that those couple of years. And I just 571 00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:42.400 want to acknowledge that coming out never stops, and it is ongoing, and 572 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:46.119 everyone has a choice, and I hope that they have the choice in agency 573 00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:52.039 to either remain where they need to be, whether it's come out in their 574 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:57.360 head or out to others. They have that agency and choice and acknowledgment that 575 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:01.000 it never stops, but can hopefully continue to grow and be a positive thing 576 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:07.000 for everybody. And I know it is for me, and that I'm extremely 577 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.920 grateful for. Oh God, so well really beautifully said. And yeah, 578 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.840 I'm trying to dig back in my memory banks. And like I think, 579 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:20.280 I think by the time I was your age, I was probably saying gay 580 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:22.920 at that point, but certainly when I was twenty two, I was still 581 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:28.239 saying that I was by and was still trying to date guys. So like 582 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:32.360 that, it is very like these things take time, they absolutely evolve, 583 00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:38.000 Like Yeah, it's just it's really interesting to me that for my entire college 584 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:43.719 experience, for my entire year and a half first relationship, and coming out 585 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.079 of that relationship, I believed I was by and that's fascinating to me. 586 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:52.760 Like, yeah, so so these things, Yeah, you're like you say, 587 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:57.440 you never stop, and certainly at a younger age, it's like who 588 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:00.559 yeah, who knows, who knows? Who knows? In my mind what 589 00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:04.760 I'll you know, identify as in a couple of years, Right, I 590 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.079 think that's so cool and we should have that ability. Cool. God, 591 00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:14.639 it's all about rather than being terrified of that, which unfortunately is a lot 592 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:17.480 of people's reactions because it's like, ah, it's amorphous. I am scared, 593 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:21.800 Like I can't point to it and name it, so that creates fear 594 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:23.679 in me, which is you know, that's a very like lizard brand like 595 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:29.440 instinct, Like if you don't recognize something, you're scared of it like that 596 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:32.559 that makes sense. But the more we can try to be like oh that's 597 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.719 chill, like, the better. And I just love I love all the 598 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:40.280 stuff that you're doing and how I love your personal journey. So yeah, 599 00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:45.960 just thank you so much for talking to me about it, and thank you 600 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.800 for doing that fun interview because it is really fun for me to get to 601 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:52.679 have it be turned around. Well, I want to say thank you for 602 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:58.039 being willing to be interviewed. And I have so much fun telling my own 603 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:01.800 story. It's not off that I tell a story verbally. I'm usually using 604 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.320 my body to do that, so I love to try that. I had 605 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.159 a great time. So thank you, Oh my god that you know this 606 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:12.840 is so much fun. Thank you. Also, thank you for being my 607 00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.480 youngest guest in quite a while. I always like to know what kids are 608 00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:22.639 up to, what the new words are, and what's going on. Yeah, 609 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:27.320 so so you all know this, But if you would like to find 610 00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:31.119 me on social media, hit up at Lauren Flance on Twitter or Lauren underscore 611 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:36.639 Flans on Instagram. The podcast, as always is at coming Out Pod. 612 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:40.480 The hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod. Hey. I've got some patrons who 613 00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:45.360 I adore. They are Carmel Kaz Simone, Chyenne, Michelle l Adri, 614 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:51.039 Tanya Pooh, Tiya, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Ornandez and Beyond 615 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:53.599 Clexa dot com and folks. I always say it if you would like to 616 00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:59.000 help the podcast out without spending any money, A really great way to do 617 00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:02.320 that is to rate it five stars. You can rate it five stars on 618 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:08.039 iTunes or on Spotify, and that's just super super helpful. You can even 619 00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:14.280 leave a little review if you'd like to, on iTunes specifically. This was 620 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:16.960 so fun. Thank you again, Mattie. It is just such a joy 621 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:21.039 to talk to you and to hear about something that I didn't even know existed 622 00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.480 until you emailed me. So thank you and everybody else. I will see 623 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:31.360 you next week. Bye.