I've scratched my head at what's happening at the SEC a lot. It doesn't
make a lot of sense. It's not good for keeping businesses here in the
US, encouraging innovation, and frankly, protecting my constituents. You know,
we want to protect consumers and we see an SEC that is moving in the
wrong direction. I've you know, spoken out publicly and privately in a bipartisan
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com. Link in the description. Welcome to the Thinking Crypto Podcasts. You're
home for cryptocurrency news and interviews. With me today is Congressman Wiley Nickel,
who's a Democrat out of North Carolina. Congressman Nickel, great to have you
on. Thanks for having me. It's great to see you, Congressman.
There's lots to talk about as it relates to crypto in the United States,
whether that's the SEC or crypto regulations themselves. But I would love to get
to know you a bit better. First, tell us about where you're from,
where'd you grow up, and what made you want to get into politics.
Yeah. I grew up all over the country. My mom was in
TV news, so we moved around a lot as a kid. I live
in Kerry, North Carolina right now, and for me, it was always
about fixing a broken healthcare system. That's what got me into politics. My
father died from cancer at an early age, so you know, the work
that we are doing and still need to do to fix a healthcare system isn't
responsive to the needs of the American people is the thing that got me into
it. And I've worked for every major presidential candidate for close to twenty years
either at the White House or on the campaign as a staff member, and
now my first term in Congress. Congressman, I hope you don't mind me
asking this question, but it's more personal for me because sometimes I get frustrated
with the government's system. Maybe I'm a bit impatient, and sometimes it seems
government can get out of its own way sometimes to get things done. And
sometimes that's because of a divided Congress. But how do you remain optimistic as
someone who's in the mix doing all these things. It's tough. It's tough
to be optimistic in this Congress. We just haven't gotten almost anything done.
I've learned in my time in Washington that we are good in Congress at doing
nothing. That's the easiest default. So you've got to really work. And
you know, I'm part of a dwindling group of people in the middle who
are you know, screaming, yelling and fighting like hell to make this place
work, to work across the island a bipartisan way, you know, And
it's one of the things that you're looking at things you can do to fix,
you know, the mess that you see in Washington. It's jerrymandering in
the House. We have over ninety percent of the seats, our safe Democrat
seats or safe Republican seats. My colleagues, some are amazing and wonderful people,
but they only need to win their Democrat or Republican primaries to get here
and to stay here. There's less than ten percent of the seats that are
truly responsive and could go either way in November. We need a lot more
of those. That's one of the things that I'm fighting to fix. And
if you're going to put your finger on something for why we have such dysfunction
here in Washington, that's one of the issues. And is it you know,
maybe we do have these lull moments where we sit on our laurels and
no one gets things done. But then pain comes, right there's situations that
come to our front door and it's like, okay, we got to take
action. We got to get past the jerrymandering and all these things. So
is it kind of is cyclical? Right? We go through these cycles where
things are not moving, but then people start to really feel the pain and
then we get moving. Yeah, I mean, you know, the deadlines
have been you know, one of the only saving graces for getting things done.
Whether it's raising the debt ceiling or passing a budget. You know,
with a government shutdown, we've had deadlines and we have to respond. That's
been something that we've barely been able to do. But you know, that's
one of the things that helps us move along. But what we really do
need are we need voters who are able to punish politicians who you know,
who aren't serving the needs of the American people. And with jerry mandering,
you know, there's far too little of it. Now, let's talk about
crypto. We are seeing the next layer of the Internet being built with blockchain
and crypto and tokenization and much more, and there's an opportunity for the United
States to be a leader here. We haven't made some progress, but we
still don't have comprehensive crypto regulations, and we see certain agencies like the SEC
are taking advantage of that and attacking good actors. And you know, we're
losing out jobs, Jobs are going overseas, but we want to keep those
jobs here. We want to get the economic benefits the same way we did
with the Internet version one point zero, with Google and Amazon and much more.
What are your thoughts on this situation and how we can get this right.
Yeah, it's a big deal. It's one of the things we're going
to look back on in this Congress. And if we can get legislation done
on stable coin, on crypto and digital assets, you know, we're going
to look back and say we actually accomplished something that made a huge difference.
And this is much like the dawn of the Internet, what we're going to
be able to do with you know, with crypto, with stable coins,
uh, you know Web three. These are things that have the ability to
transform the lives of the people that I serve in a positive way. And
we got to get clear rules of the road here. That's one of the
things I've been fighting and pushing for in my time in Congress. I serve
on the House Financial Services Committee, the Committee of Jurisdiction on these issues.
We've started working on this issue in a bipartisan way, and I'm hopeful we're
gonna have some progress in this Congress. What are your thoughts on what's happening
at the SEC though they seem to be running a muck here and cheer agencer
Uh, going back on things you've said over the years, even before Congress,
and now it seems it's all it's an all at war and attack on
the crypto industry. I know recently you partner with your colleagues to push back
on SAB one two one or one twenty one. What do you think about
what's happening at the SEC. You know, I I've scratched my head at
what's happening with SEC a lot. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
It's not good for keeping businesses here in the US, encouraging innovation and and
frankly, protecting my constituents. You know, we want to protect consumers and
we see an SEC that is moving in the wrong direction. I've you know,
spoken out publicly and privately in a bipartisan way against a lot of the
pushback. But but it's it's it's you know, fairly a fairly hostile regulatory
body for for digital assets, and it's just so easy to take a laptop
and move overseas, and we don't want to see that happen here in the
US. Absolutely. Now, I know the initial vote on to get SAB
one two one repealed has taken place, and then it has to go to
the House floor. What can you tell us there when that vote may take
place? Yeah, it's gonna it's gonna happen soon. We passed the resolution
against SAB one twenty one out a committee in a bipartisan way. I was
part of a smaller group of Democrats to joined my Republican colleagues on that issue.
I think when we get to the floor, you're going to see a
larger number of Democrats standing, you know, with with my Republican colleagues on
this issue. It's it's a place where the SEC needs to go through the
rulemaking process or better yet, we need legislation from Congress to provide clarity and
guidance. We see though that the checks and balances of the government seem to
be working, where the courts are handing a lot of losses to the SEC
where they acted arbitrary or capricious, not abiding by the law on these things.
Is there a way for the House Financial Services Committee to hold the SEC
accountable as an agency? Maybe it's reducing their budget, maybe it's other ways.
How can they be held accountable? Well, you know, we've certainly
in a bipartisan way, we've made our feelings known in Congress, and so
Gary Gensler is a smart guy. He sees the writing on the wall on
a lot of these issues. So it is my hope that he saves the
industry and the country a lot of trouble and moderates his approach, and that
means, you know, more caret and less stick. And if he does
that, I think we're going to be much better off. Do you have
any thoughts on what took place recently where the SEC got sanctioned in the debt
Box case they also made well it was not fully confirmed yet, but they're
going after Ethereum now the second largest crypto, trying to classified as a security
Any thoughts on what took place there? Yeah, I mean the debt Box
case was very disappointing because the taxpayers are going to be the ones responsible to
pay the bills here when they got sanctioned like that, we got the US
governments to pay those legal fees. So, you know, I think that's
certainly just another proof point for why regulation by enforcement isn't doing any good and
is the wrong approach on this issue. And at time, you know,
like you said, you know, time and time again, we're seeing victories
in court for an SEC that is acting you know, on its own out
of step with the wishes of Congress and we have a chance to make our
voice clear in the US Congress with SAB one twenty one and a number of
these issues. You know, going back to what I was talking about earlier
about it comes to a point where there is pain and then people that start
to move and they start to stay action. There's a level of urgency.
So when do you think we get to that point for the House to get
the let's say the f T bill out the House of stable corn regulations,
it has to go to the Senate and it has to go to President.
What do you think we get to that point where it's like, Okay,
we got to get this done. It's too long. There's too much confusion
happening with the agencies, SEC and c FDC. I notice is a hard
question, but when do you think we see cryptoregulations getting pushed through? Well,
you know, I think the first thing for people kind of watching Congress
is, you know, we've got a real problem with Republican chaos and confusion.
They are my Republican House colleagues are at war with each other. They
just can't get their act together. You have Republican after Republican quitting because they're
just fed up with it. So they now, you know, within days,
will have an effective one seat majority in Congress after retirements and flipping the
George Santos seat, so it's really tough for them to get a lot of
things on it. We probably had Kevin McCarthy still and you know, hadn't
had the mess that ensued after that, you know, I think we would
have already voted on you know, digital assets you know, and stable coin
legislation on the floor of the House. So the next thing for those two
issues, you know, passing a stable coin bill, which I think we're
very close to with you know, our ranking member Maxine Waters and Democrats talk
to the Fed about it. There. I think what I would say is
a very good place for getting stable coins done. And then the digital assets
market structure built to get you know, regulations you know, for the for
the for the industry here, rules of the road, you know, that's
what we're pushing for. Those are the two things where you're going to see
votes on both of them in the coming months. And for me, as
a moderate Democrat, I'm trying to do all I can to boost the score
of Democrats on these issues when they get to the floor so that we have
the momentum to get it done through the Senate. That's the main thing.
The main task at hand for me is how can we continue to get more
and more Democrats on board making the case, the progressive case for why crypto
is so good, why you know, we need to do everything we can
to support this emerging blockchain industry has a chance to just change the lives for
all of our constituents in a really positive way. Yeah. Absolutely. What
are your thoughts on the Bitcoin ETF launches? I mean, all of Wall
Street have issued these ets and the inflows of an incredible and it shows that
people were clamoring for it as huge demand. Now ris can offer it to
their clients, people can put in their retirement counts. What are your thoughts
on the launch of the ETFs. You know, it's it's an issue that
you know, as soon as I got to Congress, we were pushing to
to you know, support the ability to do these ETFs. I think we've
seen a good roll out with the Bitcoin et F and uh, you know
again that was a place where the sec didn't want to act and you know,
and the courts you know, required them to do it, so uh,
you know, I think I think the the what we've seen so far
with the Bitcoin ETFs is is a good sign and a reason why we need
to, you know, give folks more regulatory clarity by passing a bill through
Congress. Yeah, for sure, I'd love to get your thoughts on CBDCs.
There have been talks about the FED working on a digital dollar. I
think we see where this is headed. We have stable coins and money on
the blockchain, and governments around the world are trying to create their own central
bank digital currencies. However, people are concerned about privacy and and you know,
potentially a draconian government pulling the levers, cutting off money and things like
that. I don't think that's going to happen here in the United States.
We have the Constitution at least, and I'm hoping the digital dollar that they
put together is aligned with the Constitution. I would love to get your take
on that, you know, I think we're a lot further away on CBC's
and Congress. We got a lot more stuff we need to do and finish
first. I am the co sponsor of a bill that says that the only
person who should be making a decision about cbccs is the United States Congress,
So I think that's the first place we got to start. This is something
that you know, an administration or a regulator shouldn't be dealing with. This
is something where Congress needs to step in and make our voice clear on what
we do and how that all works. And I think we're kind of further
away, but the privacy issues too are a huge piece of all of this.
And my hope is that when we can start functioning as a US Congress
and getting things done, we do a global privacy bill across all industries,
because the rest of the the world is getting way further along on these issues
and we're not. We're you know, we are again doing what we do
best in Congress, doing nothing, but we got to act on privacy in
a global way. Absolutely. What are your thoughts on digital identity? And
once again, these things seem like they're down to road on the horizon for
the entire world because of the next layer on top of the Internet is blockchain
where you have money or identity and so forth. But this could also maybe
improve the voting system where maybe there's less voter fraud or errors and things along
those lines. What are your thoughts on that? And you know, are
we like ten years away from that where everyone you know, they have their
idea on the blockchain, it's verified by scanning a cure code something like that.
What are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean I think that's sort of
the next step that we get to as a Congress. You know, I
think the direction we're moving is in a good one. You know, a
lot of privacy concerns that are very appropriate there. But you know, I
just look at the way that we you know, that all the improvements we're
making can help consumers, you know number one. And and frankly, you
know, as a Democrat, I want to you know, say this.
We represent a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet, and
poor people spend so much of their money transferring money, payday loans, moving
money you know by Western Union these When you do this, it takes a
huge chunk out of what's already you know, a difficult and low salary to
begin with, you know, and if we when we get this right,
we're going to be able to move money. We're gonna be able to transfer
funds in a way that will save folks a lot of money. That's a
good thing for the people we represent. And really the place that I look
in addition to I think that the big point to kind of what you're getting
at, too, is the strength of the digital dollar for the United States.
That's something that is so important in this whole thing. You know,
where we're going to be in ten, fifteen, twenty years. We are
going to continue to chase the way we do business in the world around the
world, and if we if we bear ahead in the sand, other countries
are going to advance. The innovation is going to happen overseas, those jobs
are going to go overseas, and we're going to be playing catchup. And
that's not good for our economy where we need to be and continue to stay
the global reserve currency. And unless we get serious about digital assets, we're
going to keep losing ground. Yeah, and one of my major concerns is
the United States dollar losing reserves. That is because I don't know China's digital
y wan or whatever it is, right, the Russian ruble, I don't
know. But you know, as these we're in a global competition, and
as these folks go to other countries and they help develop their economies they inject
their digital y wan and digital currency, and where's the United States? Right?
We don't have our version yet, and not that it's not that we
have to have a digital dollar. Maybe it's a stable coin or something.
But you know, that's a concern. And we see bricks countries and these
there's all types of talks and grand standing and things that are happening. So
I hope the United States moves sooner than later because the reserve currency status is
a threat. I think it's a huge issue here. And you know,
the you know, the European Union as well as China, Russia. You
know, they want to you know, continue to make gains on our status
is the global reserve currency and they and they have you know that. You
know, we're seeing we're seeing that shift, and you know, this is
an issue where when we look back in ten or twenty years, we're either
going to get it right, you know, and we're going to continue to
have that elevated status that allows you know, the people I represent to borrow
money for less, allows our sanctions to work so much better because of that.
So we got to make sure we're doing everything we can to preserve that
and as we transform and change to a digital dollar, you know, you
know, and you and have that more and more relevant in people's lives.
That's the thing that motivates me to you know, push on this issue,
to try to get something done at Congress for sure. Now there was also
news I saw that you're planning to run for Senate in twenty twenty six.
I'm a rookie to all this. So how does that work like leaving Congress
going to the Senate. Yeah, I'm not doing it voluntarily. You know,
I won a fifty to fifty district. The district I got elected to
Congress and is one that our courts drew. You know. It wasn't a
Democratic district, wasn't a Republican district, you know, barely Republican district,
but it could have gone either way. And Republicans in the legislature drew maps
for themselves and drew me out of a district, so I didn't have a
district I could run in for re election. But you know, I'm doing
everything I can to fight for fair maps in our state, certainly not giving
out or going out quietly in the fight to make sure, you know,
we have maps that allow voters to choose their politicians the other way around.
So in two years, we're gonna have a seat for the US Senate coming
up, and you know, we're doing everything we can to take a real
good look at that Senate race because they can't gerrymander the boundaries of the state
of North Carolina. I got some wrap up questions here for you. First,
if you could create your own metaverse, because we see the metaverse is
being built, what would the theme be? You know my kids, my
kids have the Facebook metaverse where I do fruit and ninja. But you know,
I don't know. I'm so busy with politics. I don't have a
lot of time to get on that. But I would love I would love
if there was some sort of educational app where people could come and see how
I vote, see how it works on the floor when we're kind of having
the sausage made in Congress. Because it's it's really just a totally unique thing.
I need to figure out how I can can get that experience into something
that you can share with people, because every day we're on the floor voting
and and I think that there's there's something cool there that's fascinating. I love
that idea education as a whole is going to be a big part of the
metaverse where you can tap into different parts of the world and learn things.
But to see, like you said, how the sausage is made, or
maybe you don't want to see it because like you're saying, it can be
rough at times to get things done. But I would be fascinated. And
to be on the floor with you guys, and to see what's being said
and how it's being said and so forth, that would be pretty amazing.
So I like that idea. Yeah. And as a district though, we've
got epic games in and around where I'm my district in North Carolina, so
you know, obviously a big, a big player there. Now I've got
some rapid fire questions for you versus favorite food cheeseburgers, I make a great
cheeseburger, and favorite musician or band, you know they have so many.
But I was just in Vegas, uh, and I saw you two at
the Sphere totally amazing. Recommend that to anybody to see that. This just
amazing concert with the biggest screen in the world. That's amazing. I have
that on my bucket list to do. Uh. Favorite movie Shawshank Redemption.
That's a good one. Favorite book, you know, I have so many.
I just finished The Wager, a really good book by the guy who
did The Killers of the Flower Moon, the the the Leonardo DiCaprio movie,
but a great book about you know, British seamen and you know, hundreds
of years ago, really fascinating stuff. And finally, when you're not doing
your congressional duties, what are you doing for fun as a hobby? You
know, I just love the job. You know, being in Congress is
amazing, But you know, I when I have time, you know,
I love running. I run high with my kids is a big thing.
We got great places to hike in North Carolina. So that's that's, you
know, the stuff that I like doing. Honest with Nicole, thank you
so much for the work you're doing on behalf of the crypto industry and trying
to push things forward. Thank you for joining me. It was great to
see you.