You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three thirty False when things change, I'll be happy
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I'm super excited by today. I have screenwriter Rob Edwards on It's Bonkers.
It's like over two hours long, but is just pack with such great information.
I wanted to dig deeper into one area that I have a particular interest
in. It's the Pixar Brain Trust storytelling meetings. So how does Rob fit
in? But here's a quick bio of Rob's work. Rob Grip and Detroit
moved out to Los Angeles and had an agreement with his dad that he would
find work in the industry within the first nine months he was there. Now
here's where Rob's hustle is on full display. Now this was back in the
mid nineteen eighties. He would call every production company in town and asked the
person on the other line if they wanted to hear a joke or a piece
of gossip. Most of the time, Rob was able to get a laugh
from them with his jokes, while those who picked the gossip would share even
juicier stories with Rob of their own. Now, all the people at these
production companies would ask what Rob wanted. Now, Rob didn't ask for anything
return, He just said that he would call back and let them know.
So when he calls back the people at these production companies they remembered him,
and when he asked for work, they were more inclined to hire him because
the fact that at least there would be a guy around the office who could
tell jokes all day. Robert worked these production gigs during the day and at
night write his scripts. Now the hustle paid off because he was eventually hired
as a writer for television before he was twenty one. Then that's crazy.
Since then, here are Rob's credits. He's been a writer on Full House,
in Living Color, The Fresh Prince of bel Air, which most of
the stories are based on his own experience while attending prep school in Detroit.
In fact, Rob went to the same school as Aaron Sorkin, who Rob
worked with on Studio sixty later on. Now, we didn't get a chance
to go into detail about working with Aaron Sorkin, but I do hope to
have Rob back again one day, so there's talk about more stories. You
know. Rob's work eventually landed him over at Disney, where he wrote Treasure
Planet and The Princess and the Frog. Rob was there at Disney when the
Pixar guys took over story development, and that is where we pick up the
story. I've always been fascinated by how Pixar continually knocks it out of the
park with their stories. In the book Creativity Inc. By Ed Catmill,
who was one of the founders of Pixar, explains how the development of this
brain trust group has been proven to be invaluable to the storytelling process for Pixar.
So I'm thinking, how does it work? What happens in those rooms
that is different than getting studio notes or working in a writer's room, and
now here today we need to find out because Rob worked firsthand in these brain
trust meetings for The Princess and the Frog. What I hope you get from
this episode is some real world strategies of how to make your stories better.
I mean, after all, it's not every day you get to sit in
on a Pixar storytelling meeting, So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Rob
edwords with the film Trooper. The goal was to try to help sort of
the uber independent filmmaker, the one that things have changed so much in the
filmmaking landscape. Obviously, you have the studio system, you have sort of
like the indie Hollywood like people that have one foot in the studio system and
put put in like the film international film market. And there's probably like ninety
percent of everybody now that has a camera and can edit movies on their laptop
right now. They've entered the scene. But there's a different sort of business
economics for them, and you know, we're just sort of discovering it.
And but at the core of all this is still telling a great story.
So because I also came from the video game world. For like twelve years,
I worked at Sony PlayStation and I was a cinematic supervisor there making you
know, movies for video games. But our department was considered fluff because at
the heart of all video games is the gameplay. So if movies and television
is, if story is king. Then in video games, gameplay is king
because you can have amazing graphics on your video game, but if it's sluggish,
if it's not fun to play, people put it aside. So I
wanted to if you would indulge me, just like, imagine this setup where
we have these uber independent filmmakers that they are learning the skill sets as a
filmmaker to shoot at it, you know, direct what it may be,
but we do see a lot of it fall short in terms of the storytelling
aspect of things. And with your history, with your experience, I'm really
curious about what you saw in the transition one working in writers rooms, working
in collaboratively, but then on top of that working with Disney, especially on
that transition when Pixar you know, came in, And I would really love
to know more about could you take us through a little journey of like how
the brain trust meetings work or because if if what I'm trying to do is
if there's something there, there's these nuggets there that we can then identify and
say, Okay, so if you're like an uber independent filmmaker and you're writing
your story right now, how can you simulate on your own by we were
talking about the accountability group, you know or masterminds. Could you create something
like that that's very specific to creating your own version of a brain trust group?
And if so, would be those inner workings that that we could apply
that'd be like, oh, like, how do you get in a room
where people can be free to be have candor without being consulting you know exactly?
Well, that's see, that's the thing I mean, the question is
is kind of the answer because it's that is the for me at at Disney
Pixar, I saw the pre John Lasseter Disney, you know, with Treasure
Planet. That was all you know, the old regime where there were levels,
levels after levels of middle management and uh and everybody, and you know,
sometimes a note would come down from on high, you know whatever,
and it would get some something simple like somebody would just read something and say,
hey, I wonder if we could do this, and then middle management
would just pound us and say this has to happen. You know, there's
no you know, uh, there is no other version. And we would
look at it and we would say, hey, look we tried this.
It doesn't work. It makes the movie bad. And they would say,
no, we got this note and you have to do it. And then
we would do it and it would go back to the person, you know,
the voice on high and he would say, what is this? This
is this is crap. They said, well, this was your note.
This isn't you know this addresses your note? Like no, no, no,
that was just a thought. You know, that didn't work. You
should have thrown it out. And that's what you know, middle management kind
of does to kill you. What's great about the brain Trust is that it's
it's too one is I'll say, the impossible part of it. We'll start
there. The impossible part of it is you're never going to find yourself in
a room with Brad Bird and you know, Anderson, the doctor, Bobby,
and that these guys are gonna say, hey, it's very important that
your movie is good, you know, and we'll invest in it with with
an artist's heart. And you know, that's very tough. Having said that,
you can construct rooms of filming before they were Pisarre, there were just
a bunch of guys who almost got shut down, you know. For Toy
Story, Toy Story was a mess. The first draft of Toy Story,
the first version, first set of reels of Toy story was a mess.
What he's yelling at everybody? You know, everybody was cowering in fear.
It was the most by their admission, the most unlikable film ever. And
then uh what what what Pete Peyton Bob said was that Pete doctor I said
that Andrew Setton kind of went into a room and figured it out. You
know, he went into a room with all of the texts, you know,
the Doc Truby whatever and Robert McKee and all the notes that they had
had from everything, along with his own thoughts about you know, movies that
he'd like, the notes that they had gotten. You know, why wasn't
picks, why it wasn't toy story working. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And how had
they arrived at this place where even Steve Jobs was saying like, okay,
guys, maybe it's maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right the right fit.
And he came out and said, I got it. It needs to
be this and this and this and those are the rules that you always see,
you know, in their ted talks and that you know of of what
they do, which they frequently break By the way, guys, in every
movie they have happy villages. They just don't call the happy villages. There
is a you know, there is an I want song. Everybody has to
state what it is they want. But those rules, basically what they do
is they enforce the rules and the way that the the the brain Trust works.
At least what I saw is that they start off. What you don't
get that you do get sometimes from your buddies is hey, a great movie.
Yeah, and that's that's the worst thing in the world. You know,
it's just it's the the uh, I would say, savagery of low
expectations. This is very good. Yes, don't change a word of it.
That's awful. What you say is, okay, what is the biggest
problem? That's where That's where andrewsand would usually start. So, okay,
what is the biggest problem. Let's start there, and then let's let those
things filter down because some of the smaller problems that people have may be things
that started with the bigger problems. When you see when you say a big
problem, is that the actual what's the biggest problem of the story not working?
Or what is the biggest problem in the story, or like, what
is the protagonist's problem. The biggest problem with the story not working. Okay,
and it and it is it is. Your buddy will say, oh,
it works, it just needs this a the brain trust says it's not
working. You know, the the the the default is it doesn't work.
These movies just don't work, you know. And if they are, if
they're good, it's still not good enough. You know, they're not great.
They're not everybody's favorite movie. You're not gonna you're not gonna turnstile.
You know, you're not gonna leave the theater, buy a ticket and come
right back in. Yeah. Yet, especially in the first second draft,
a lot of people will stop there. That's a that's a major problem.
I see a lot is it. Writers will say they'll do a draft or
two and they'll say, oh, great, you know this is good.
It all works, and then they'll stop. You can't. You have to
say, okay, well what you have to plus it? You have to
say, Okay, what's the next level of this? You know, we
have a really great uh eddemole has a has a has a great scene.
She's auditioning the costumes for the New Incredibles. Okay, that's fine, but
what's the next level of it. You know, oh great, let's put
her on a chair and the tier goes back and forth and we have everything,
you know, we show everything as it's happening. Okay, awesome,
you know. Now it's plus you know, and then can you plus it
even more the reactions to it all that kind of stuff, because yeah,
I'm sorry, that's definitely like a flaw within like this world of the uber
independent, like they kind of work a script a little bit, but they
just get it too good enough. They're like, I think I can make
this right, right, right exactly, you know, and you can make
it. Really, you can make anything. And sometimes that's the best thing
a professional can do for you is just say, okay, this, you
can make this. This is fine. You know, you can roll the
cameras, it'll all, it'll all shoot well, but you're gonna get creamed
by the by the critics. You know. You're it's good enough for forty
four percent ripe tomato, you know, but you're not going to get that
ninety nine unless you super super push it. And especially with independent films,
there are fantastic independent films, and then there are some that you just say
like, oh, you know, I can yeah that when they when your
friends send you the links. Yeah, yeah, everybody knows you watch it.
It takes you four four times to get all the way through it because
you're just kind of like, okay, well this is this is okay,
but nothing is really gripping, you know, getting me gripped to the screen.
On the other hand, you'll see, like you know, the Marvel
films, the new you know, the new Marvel films, the obviously the
Pixar films, films that are well told. They drive you. You know,
you instantly have a character that you understand that you really want them to
achieve their goals, and then the opposition is just monumental. And then you're
just watching them be clever and cool and and wonderful and make their way through
the story. Yeah, well then that is that is a school of storytelling.
And the way that you get to that is that thing where you know,
somebody at the table, hopefully everyone at the table, says, look,
let's start with protagonists. What does the protagonist want and how much do
they want it? Straight up? You know, first question. I'll see
dozens of scripts, stacks and stacks of scripts, and I'll ask thembut I'm
twenty pages into this, I can't tell who you know, what the protagonist
wants. If I can tell who the protagonist is, I can't tell what
they want. And that just sucks. You know. That means you know
you have terrible friends read your script, you know with any honesty and told
you you know, look, it is a chore to turn the pages of
the script. Can I ask you with the I know that you know obviously
Pixar Disney is and it is animation. And in the pitch process, like
when the brain Trust group comes together, is it just is the initial meeting
just the script phase or do they come like here's the script phase with some
storyboards or you know, they put up a board and somebody acts it out,
or like how does the how does the other members acquire the story or
is it presented to them or do they actually read a script come into the
meeting? And I guess the second part of the question, is there like
a moderator, is you know right? Or is it more of a loose
like all right, everybody, this is a story we're making, you know,
Rob's news story. He's the director on it. We read the script
or we've seen the pitch, are ready for their pitch, or like,
how does that? How does the room work? Then I'm just curious because
if I'm going to do something like on an uper independent level, should I
come to the table with some storyboards and present it as much as possible.
I'm I'm just trying to figure out how I can the best I can to
simulate what they're doing in the brainch Yeah exactly, Yeah, well Anderson has
those things is be be wrong as early as possible. You're gonna be wrong,
you know, It's and again that's always the assumption. It is broken.
It was broken until the last possible second. And even Ron Clements and
John Musker, Yeah, you know Princes the Frog and your planet, yeah
planet, and you know, uh a little thing called Little Mermaid, a
little thing that those guys what Don Hall, the head of story He would
say, they like to leave the paint wet, meaning that you're always developing,
You're always you're always coming up with ideas. You're leaving that door open
for that new, wonderful idea to come in. Even when I was working
with Aaron Sorkin on Studio sixty, he would we would talk about Yo.
It was kind of a paperless office. You know, you don't write it
down, don't lock any idea down. It's just you're just talking out stuff.
So when you start off with with with with John Lasseter and I was
working on a project called King of the Elves, was based on a Philip
K. Dick short story. Okay, And what you do is you start
talking about who are the main character is going to be? You know,
And in this case it was kind of like I wanted to just for me
as a writer, I wanted to address some of what I was going through
with my I have two sons and and just this idea of what is it
What are you looking for a son to do? When do you know that
a son has is ready to go off to college, is ready to you
know, has become a man. You know, as a father, you're
always searching around for stuff. You're trying to figure out fatherhood as you go.
And so what is it? You know, what is that look that
you want to see in your son's eyes that says I'm ready? And how
do you get there? There? And can we do that? In the
in the in the course of this this story, which is essentially about these
sides, which is essentially about these uh elves and this guy who essentially inherits
and inherits this elf world. So yeah, so so so you start there,
Okay, well these are this is the emotional palette. This is what
I think is is going to be fun. Let me kill that thing.
Sure, sure, go ahead, Sorry about that, you want to clean?
Where did I start? We're talking about your You're working a story about
you have two boys, but you know, when do you get that moment?
How do you how do you capture that moment when it's in their eyes
that they're ready for manhood, are ready to leave the nest or whatnot?
Yeah? Exactly, yeah, and so yeah, so for me, that's
what I was exploring. That's just what I'm exploring in life. And I
thought, okay, this is a great way to to to write it and
kind of you know, share it with people. I'll have a lot of
insights on it. It'll it'll be informative to me. It'll be a movie
that I would want to watch. Which start And then I was talking to
John about it and John said, oh, man, my son is sixteen
two, and there's this look they give you and and everything. We just
started sharing stories about you know, just how do you get through to them?
And what do you give them? And you know, just how do
you raise a boy? And we're sharing the story, shared story, shared
stories here, and I said, okay, excellent, I know, I
know what I'm going to do. So I go off from that basic conversation
because I know, okay, good, he's an audience I'm an audience member.
And that's another one of the Andrew Stanton Yeah that I cling to,
which is a film goer first, a film maker second. So I go
I set out to look at the story, which is very light. We'll
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
show, and say, okay, what can I do? Basically, how
can I get a rise out of John? You know, I'm gonna story
what I do is going to get a rise out of John. What are
going to be those real, great, honest moments that we can do?
So I go through what we know story team. We we kind of plot
and there's it's fantastical and it's all kinds of stuff, but at its core
it's got this really great emotional emotion to it, just like Princess and Froger
and Evos. Yeah, yeah, and and then and then you are pitching
kind of a wall of drawings. Uh, you know, first act is
on one wall. Actually second act is on it, so on two walls,
and then the third act is on the is on the next wall,
you know, because for a second act is always in two parts of two
yeah, with the midpoint and then uh you know. And and it's funny
because John will and I use this method all the time. John walks in
and he goes third act, he walks right up to it and he's,
Okay, where's that moment? You say, well, you know it's it's
there. And what he's looking for is what's the epiphany? What's that little
thing you know, where the the uh where you know where he is going
to turn into a star or when you know the both Tiana and Vine are
going to decide, you know, to uh that there to trade their journey
for their relationship all the things they want. What is that? What is
that moment? Like in yeah, in every you know, when when Luke
I was you know, when when Luke chooses the you know, the force
over the over the right, you know, what is that and what is
the and then you go back and you say okay, great, well,
what are the elements I need to tell? That's that story. And so
he's looking at that point at the mechanics, and then you go through it.
You pitch it once he's once he has bought off on that that moment
working great, Oh yeah, I can see that. I can see crying
at that moment. Then you go back and he says okay, you know,
he sits down in his chair and he says, okay, Act one,
Scene one, A flaming qualifier comes in from space and whatever, and
you're trying to give it as good a look as you can. Yeah,
you know, it doesn't help you to soft sell a pitch, you know,
even if it is rough, even if you just have little heads with
smiley faces on it. Yeah, you pitch it. You know, it's
your favorite movie. So you're you're you're going with it, going with it,
going with it, you sell out and go and then he says,
okay, great, I see it got slow here, it got slow here
whatever, I bought off on the ending. But and then you start doing
your story map right, if you're gonna if you're gonna have Luke use the
force to sell, you know, to to shoot down the desk Star.
There should be a scene in the middle of the movie where he realizes that
the force is stronger than, you know, than than just any mechanical concerns.
What if we put a helmet on him or something some oraculous happen and
then that'll be that And then how do we get him there? Well?
Okay, cool? He should be a kid who wants to I don't know,
he wants adventure. And how many of these movies start with, you
know, I want I want to live more than the provincial life, or
I want to you know whatever. Yeah, looking out of the window,
Harry Potter wanting something, you know, something better than living under the stairs
exactly, and you know, uh where Poe is looking at his his shelf
full of things going on? Oh man, it would be so awesome to
be a kung fu master o'neo looking, you know, seeing the rabbit.
You know that that that there's that call and then you say no, you
know because again just whatever, jump on the thing. You have to say
no to that call. And then you go through, like I say,
the story math. What's going to get him into the second act? How
is he locked in? Well, Luke, you're going to burn down his
family. His family's anything keeping him in this world, his uncle who says,
no, you're gonna sit here, you know, drink green milk and
be a good boy. And and so you burn that down because Luke's first
intention is just to is just to get the old man to the bar and
be done with you know, look, I'll get to that far, but
you know, you're all this other stuff is crazy talk and h and by
the time he gets to the bar, he's kind of in it. And
and then off they go. I'm the adventure or whatever, you know,
And the first part of the adventure is is impossible because the planet has been
destroyed. And then you're just going getting him deeper and deeper into it.
All you're doing is looking at that endpoint, like when is he completely bought
it? When is he going to sacrifice his life, take on this his
role as you know, jetmaster and whatever and embrace the ways of the fourth
Yeah, of course that's the whole thing. And you're gonna make it difficult
for him all along the way. You're going to build up the opposition as
much as you can. So going back to the brain trust, those are
the elements you're looking at it and you're saying, Okay, you're telling this
type of story. And a lot of times it's a straight up film theory.
I don't know if you're a film student or whatever, but all you
do in film school it is wonderful is you watch a ton of movie and
watching old musicals, You're watching whatever. You know. For me, when
I start a movie, I'll go, you know, I'm gonna watch every
spaghetti western that ever was boom, you know, and I'll just I'll just
go through my Netflix quew is just you know, just budding with stuff.
I'm gonna watch every kung fu movie, every crazy kung fu movie that I
can find, and I'll just go through every single everything, single weird one.
I'll do all of my research. I'll just kind of become in bett,
you know, just completely embedded in this stuff. Let it seep into
my DNA, and then I really and then I'll see the matrix. I'll
see, Okay, this is how these types of stories are told. If
I can stay on this path, I think I'll be fine. And I
think also I'll be satisfying the audience that that enjoys this type of movie.
So yeah, and then off I go. Then I know, like I'm
working on a project right now, there's the airport for yeah, a studio,
I'll say studio. Yeah, but it's you know, completely mainstream.
But it's one of the things I said was was the audience has seen a
ton of movies like this and and the uh it's in the category of the
of like Maze Runner and Insurgent and those kind of things, and the audience
of that of that genre is often like they're really super skeptical, you know,
if you if you show them like what is it? There's a ton
of these kind of Percy and those things. You know, there are a
bunch of these movies that come out and the audience has never absorbed, you
know, just never takes them in. And then you're done. And so
there are things that you need to do. There are tropes that they want
to see, but they don't want to see the same tropes as they've seen
in the other movies. So you have to mess with them and mess with
them in a very clever way. So that it said an very early signal
that Okay, this is cool, you know, forget your popcorn, lean
in and enjoy the movie. Yeah, that's the plussing. That's the extra
extra extra right, and hopefully, like a bad room would be a room
full of people who don't all like making the same kind of movies. You
know, they're going to pull you in every direction. Good. You know,
you go into Marvel and all those guys have read every single comic book,
throw off a reference. They will all go, oh, yeah,
and this, and then you could do this, and then the room just
explodes with everything, you know, all the minutia. Everybody will go,
you know what's great about that issue? Was this and this and this happened.
No, here's what I think. I think this is what made it
great. But this, you know, this episode and this, this issue
and this issue didn't do well because of this, and everybody will have their
theory and great, if you can move towards this and away from that,
you'll be fine. And that's generally what happens in those brain trust meetums is
it's a yes and kind of table. That is that is literally the same
principles of improv yes exactly. The whole teaching is an actor will give you
something and the other actor has to say yes and yes. Literally, that's
what it is. Act I act up here in Portland, so you know,
just for my acting friends and stuff like that. So it's one of
those things that's funny that you brought that up. Yeah, do more of
that because it becomes for me. Yeah. I did a lot of improv
in college, and I did some instand up as well, and improv.
Yeah, after and even in my stand up I would leave. I'd always
i'd consider it in quarters, right, I would do my introductions and kind
of get everybody into like, this is who I am, this is where
my comedy is going to come from, guys, so get you to it.
Yeah, exactly ten jokes in this area, and then I would kind
of like, Okay, now that we're friends, now that we know each
other, here we go. You know, we're gonna go and go into
this. And then third quarter I would just kind of kick back and I'd
say, hey, let's talk about something, and I would just riff and
and you know, I would just I would ask the audience a question or
else, you know, or whatever, and I would just go on whatever
I was given. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. Just lean into it and fly and then
i'd of course wrap it up with some you know, some stuff that was
money night and you know whatever, drop the mic and take off. But
that that and and frankly, it's also the same kind of thing that happens
in a TV room, like you had mentioned before, you know, in
sitcom rooms, that's exactly what happens, because literally you cannot afford in a
sitcom room for somebody to go yeah, I don't know, you know.
So when I was running tables, I would always say buy it or beat
it, you know, being okay, there's an idea on the table that
I believe to be very good. If you think of a better idea,
pitch it now. Otherwise we're going to build off of the idea we have,
but we're not going to spend an hour and a half just kind of
shooting, you know, just telling everybody why it's a bad idea. So
so it winds up being really really great. So that's exactly what you find
in the pis room. Somebody will say, well what if? You know,
that's the first thing. What if? And anytime anybody says what if
and whatever, the room gets really quiet. Even if you have even if
you have your own what if you're like, okay, great, I'm just
gonna get in line. Yeah, what if we turn the whole thing upside
down and this happens, and then this happens, and instead of everybody going
oh, shut up, you go, okay, if that happens, then
this would also happen, and this and this, and then this would happen
and this and this. All the energy winds up around that that idea.
Boom boom boom, and you're just building a mountain off this idea, and
hey, you know what's a great sequence with that? You can do this
and this and this, and then somebody else will say, hey, and
that will fix this scene because you can do this instead, and they'll start
pitching the dialogue and everybody were cracking out the jokes and all that. And
then sometimes you get to the top of that of that mountain and you go,
I don't know, built this whole thing, and you say it's good,
but it's not necessarily better than what we had before, or it's good,
but it's a whole other movie or whatever, and then it gets quiet
and everybody digests what we had, and then the next person says, well
what about this? Boom? And then you start, you build again,
same energy and everything. Everybody gets into everything. There is no there is
some negative and because some people will say, ah, you know, we
tried that and blah blah blah blah blah. But if you were going to
make it work, here's what you would do. I say. So everybody
is looking at it in terms of they're making the movie and that you get
too, which is you know, uh, which I think is wonderful because
Brad Bird is going to have a different idea in his head and Pete Doctor,
Yeah, and Pete Doctor is going to have a different one than than
Mark, you know, than than even even John. And John's gonna have
you you know whatever, and everybody's gonna it's an orchestra, right. So
John is, John's got a big heart at John's or whatever, and he's
he's a big kids who he's gonna love the you know, a big block
scene. Uh, Andrew is looking to make sure it's you know, you're
checking the boxes. Uh, Pete's got you know, Pete's got his take.
You know, Brad's a cowboy, you know, he he's he's doing
his thing. And uh and in that symphony, you have like, Okay,
great this is this wonderful set of ideas. Even what is it?
Michael, Arn't you know who wrote to you know, a little sunshine?
He comes in and he I love the way he thinks because he thinks a
lot like me. I'm a I'm a structured guy. Uh. You know
when when I when I started doing sitcoms, there were two rooms, were
three rooms. There was there was the room of guys who would think about
the stories. There was story guys, you know, who would who would
as you were breaking the story, they would sit down and say, well,
it should be this and then this and then this, you know,
and just plot out the plot out the story, knowing where the jokes were
going to come. And then we would invite a larger group in and then
those would be the joke guys would come in and say oh yeah, and
then this and this. You know, they would have great dialogue. And
I saw very early, you know, they were like, well, which
room do you want to be? And I was like, I want to
be in the room with the exect producer, you know, And that's the
story room that those guys seem to be. Those guys are working all the
time, and those guys anytime stuff was wrong, they would kick the joke
guys out of the room, and a very small group of story guys would
work would work through it. And story guys where the guys who would hold
the pencil, meaning they would make the last decision. They would write down
whatever the choice was. And and so I like that a lot. And
even now as I'm working in chers and stuff, it's always the story guys
who are kind of called in when things are really wrong. They'll say,
okay, please help us, you know what's wrong with it, and you
go in with your toolbox, unmotivated character. The third act moment doesn't work,
Let's build back from that. What are the values that we're doing here
and go through And before I go to the I just want to kind of
recap sure, like make sure I'm I'm grabbing the essence of everything you're talking
about. There's it sounds like there's a little bit of a I think your
cable might be hitting I think it's hitting my shirt. So okay, yeah,
you get you get a little story just you and I. Yeah,
they go, okay, good, is it going clean? Clan clean?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, man, is that's not too bad? It's
but I just it's such great information you have and it's just you and I
on the video, so it's all good. Look like a prison shirt or
hopefully that's perfect. So the well we can what I can gather from here
is I like this concept of one make sure that the room that you create,
the group that you create, if you're going to create your own brain
trust group, you know, if you're writing a horror genre, you know,
make sure you have people that like it, that helps have studied up
on it. Yeah, exactly, that know that know the genre that no
the tropes that have a passion for it, that that can gel with you
as well as I like this idea that you start from the b end what
is that one thing or just have that conversation, like what is the one
thing you want on this film? The story? Is it the moment?
What does that magic moment, that third act moment that makes it the payoff
all worth it? And then reverse engineer go back from the beginning and work
towards that. I like all that. I love this that little note you
gave about the second act the midpoint of like, if the payoff and the
third act, then that magic movie moment is it works? You have to
give us a little taste of in the midpoint, which is great, you
know, and it totally makes sense. But then obviously the people that you
put together have to know, you know, their story structure or you know
that they're just their film geeks or other filmmakers themselves that are have an opportunity
to contribute to the storytelling process where you know, we all seem to do
it. Anyway, after we watch a movie, we're like, why didn't
not work? You know, like I think my wife, My wife and
I just rewatched the remake of Poltergeist last night and were huge fans of the
first one. I mean watched that many times over and seeing what happened,
you know, our own analysis of taking away. And it's interesting the conversation
you have just saying why why didn't it work? Because you're trying to figure
out like what's gut wise, what's what's what's something's off? Whyden? Is
it not working for us? And I think it was. I think it
was like it took an hour, like originally a two hour movie into an
hour and a half, and it was like go time from the beginning,
like there was no one. It was just like bang bang bang, there
was no time to catch your breath, and it it definitely felt rushed than
all the wonderful cinematic you know, vision visions of the stuff. But it
was there's some soul aspect missing. I think. See that's the thing.
Because that and because I was going to ask you, okay, what what
what did you think was was was missing? So in what part of the
movie do you think it was missing from? If you if your conclusion was
that it was soulless, and we and we're in the brain Trust meeting right
now, so yea, yeah, yeah, this conclusion was that Polter Guys
was souless? Where how do you fix that? Where? What? What?
What had they taken out? Because you have in this case, it's
empirical, right, you have a movie that works and a movie does not
that does not work. That are the exact that are supposed to be the
exact same movie, right, so you can kind of look at them side
by side, you know. And I'm notorious for this. I'll get iTunes
and I'll just i will watch five minutes of one movie, five minutes of
another movie, the next five minutes of the next, and I'll just I'll
completely go go through because a lot of movies will have If you watch Point
Break and Fast and Furious, they're the exact same movie, right, and
they will tell you they're the exact same movie, and uh, every you
know, in every way you know, and and so the question is,
okay, great, will those two work now? Now this one? Okay
great? So so we're back to it's soulless. That's our problem. Where
did that come from? Definitely? I think from watching the remake and being
a fan, like you said, being so well versed in the first one
and seeing it many times over. You know all the nuances, you know
all the scenes, but mostly from the from it was there's a sense of
wonderment and awe and sort of respect for this, this deeper conversation about the
paranormal that was existed in the first one. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show again. We're talking
about somebody remaking Spielberg exactly. Yeah, but Spielberg's got a bag of tricks
that is very interesting. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look
at man. I just had this conversation with Spielberg himself. Well, his
daughter went to school with my son. So it was okay, it's kind
of fun. You know. We got and and his and his other son
too, karate class with my older son. So wow, okay, so
it's just all this cross ower. But but we never like, hey,
tell me about Jaws or whatever. But I did get a chance to meet
the writer of Jaws, I said, Jenner with him a couple of months
ago, and and we were talking just about those things of Manucia, of
all of that stuff. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look
at when I'm analyzing a filmmaker, the first couple of films, the first
two films. I may have mentioned this failure, but that that that I
always look at them when they're in their infancy, when they're trying to put
together their bag of tricks, and then I try to find what is their
worst film. And for Spielberg, it's nineteen forty one right there. And
in nineteen forty one he is doing he's showing his bag of tricks, but
he's doing everything wrong. And you can tell like, oh, this is
what he what he does great, everything that he does great in the in
the first couple of movies, he does really poorly. Here and everything that
he did great like an Et. And this gets to the answer of what
I was digging at with the two Poulter guys is that it's the first act.
It's a first act problem that that you when you buy into something emotionally,
it's if you don't feel it emotionally, it's because when we met those
people, we didn't care about them exactly. You know, if it's a
roller coaster ride, if if they're thinking, well, the best thing about
we told you guys is the little girl gets sucked into the TV and whatever,
there's a closet and all that stuff like that is not the best thing.
It's about this family. It's about this guy who is who is you
know, has moved his family into this into this new environment. He's worried
that there is something wrong with the area. There's this drumbeat of weird things
that have been happening around the area, and you're filling in the character.
It's like it's like Jaws, It's like Et. It's everything. The conversation
that they have at at breakfast in ET before ET shows up is the most
important conversation you have. Yeah, I remember in Princess and the Frog,
there was this whole thing of we were just we're trying to get them into
the body as quickly as possible. And the note we kept getting back in
the brain trust, because that's the other part of the brain trust, right,
is you screen the movie. You're showing the movie to a lot of
people, and they're giving you notes back. Everybody in the building, everybody
at Disney, everybody a Pixar. You get reams of notes. Uh,
I didn't think, you know, this is a problem, this is a
problem. This is a problem. And then they put the notes into sections,
so someone's about you know, the main character, or something about you
know, the story itself. And then we were getting all these notes.
I you know, the story seems funny. I just don't care. I
don't care about the journey. Yeah, And I said, well that's the
first act problem. Same thing. And you didn't care because she wanted to
have a restaurant, but you didn't care why she wanted to have a restaurant.
So I said, well, hey, I saw this drawing of a
dad. I love this story. Yeah, yeah, this keep going on.
This is a great done. I don't want there was a dad picture
of drawing of a dad and Basically, they were trying to figure out what
the mom looked like. So they had drawn a dad just to figure out,
you know, what were the features that that Tiana had gotten from both
of her parents, and then that would be the mom. And there was
this a drawing and I asked the character designer, what you know, what
is this like? Oh, we explained it, and I said, well
this is Can I borrow this? And I took it back into the room.
I said, this guy is the most important person in the movie because
daughters, that relationship between daughters and fathers, and we've been looking driving so
hard to have a person to have an emotional reason why she wants to have
this restaurant. Why not? Why can't it be the daughter the dream of
a daughter and her father, and and that the legacy of that once the
father passes away, she wants to continue that dream. And then there is
no way the thing can't have emotion. It's a woman holding you know,
it's it's what they did in up right the house at a certain point becomes
you know that Karl is trying to continue the dream that he had with his
with his wife. That's that's the And I could mention probably fifty other movies
that are fueled with that kind of emotion. There is a reason why we
tell stories in that way. And so once that happened, it was a
tiny adjustment. It was about three pages and in the beginning of the movie,
and everybody said, wow, what did you do? Did you rewrite
the entire movie? Like, no, we just gave every time, you
know, she says the word restaurant, you know what it means. And
I had to hit it. I think in the middle, at the midpoint,
when they're right before they dance, and then at the end when they're
on the riverboat and they're looking looking out at the restaurant itself, and it's
what gets Navine to back off. He wants to proposed to her, and
it has such huge emotional weight that it's like, Okay, great, my
job here, My job here has done the mechanics. The rest of the
mechanics of the storytelling were I don't want to say inconsequential, but they were
less consequential because we had launched the story correctly. You watch a movie like
Man on Fire, they spent a ton of time. I don't think anybody
dies until the midpoint of that movie. Yeah. The whole movie is about
this broken guy's love for this little girl and how this girl redeems has his
soul and makes him, stops him from committing suicide. Yeah, you know,
the bullet doesn't go off. There is something, you know, the
god of the story has a larger plan for this guy, and it's about
this. It's about this relationship with this little girl. And you know,
he starts coaching her about you know, don't be afraid of the gun and
all that, and and they have this wonderful, wonderful relationship. So at
the point when she's kidnapped, you're like, oh no, yeah, go
down, because now this guy has license. You know, he is he
is fired up. And if you look at I'm sorry when I say last
example, but if you look at Taken, Taken follows the exact same model.
That girl doesn't get kidnapped. Chill deep into that movie yet heartbreak,
heartbreak, the pony versus the you know, karaoke machine, all of those
scenes. If you're looking at it from an executive standpoint, you'll think,
oh god, you know the movie is really about it. It's a shoot
them up, and why is it taking sixty minutes before the guy fire is
the first shot. You know, well, like, can't we just condense
this and you have to as a writer, as an artist, say no,
people don't watch buildings burn. They watch people saving the people they love
that are in the building that is on fire. You know that that's drama.
Yeah, it's interesting. You know you brought that up. It got
me excited because you were saying, like how important to set up, how
portant the first act is. And if you look at some movies back in
the in the seventies, like even Exorcist, literally I think the first hour
like nothing major paranormal like happens. I mean, the priest doesn't show up
up until after the hour mark, like like all this stuff I remember about
the Exorcist doesn't happen until like almost after the midpoint. You know. It's
like, yeah, because the even like Rosemary's the Baby, same thing,
uh, Gary Shining, Like yeah, exactly, Shining. You're just watching
girls and bikes and yeah, yeah, it's just and and there are a
little creepy things that happened. There's always got you know, a cat dropped
out of the box. Uh. I was watching Alien, same thing.
It's just the day to day workings of of space uh, space teamsters.
And then and then midpoint the thing leaps out of the guy's chest and you're
it's off, off and running exactly what we've been setting up before. That
is nobody listens to Ripley. You know, these guys are are in it
for a paycheck. You froze up, do you see me? Good?
Yeah? Okay, sorry? Yeah that that that nobody listens to her,
that that you know, these guys are are in it for a paycheck,
and that something is wrong with the science officer, you know, and there's
all these kind of your you're just setting up the dynamics, uh, and
it's getting your heart is kind of in your chest. You know that something's
got to happen. Yeah. Uh. And then when it does, it's
just like bam bam, bam bam bam. And then you're left the best
thing about looking at the third act versus it it's the thing, it's the
thing that you are. You know, the lights go up, you walk
to your car and you go, man, that was awesome. And that's
the thing. You know, If that third act moment works, then it's
all worth it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter what you did
up until that point. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. Nobody's gonna you know, the the
audience coming out of the seven o'clock show. I talk about this all the
time because it's what it's what makes movies great. It's what makes the business
of making a movie, even if it's an independent film. It's the audience
coming out of the seven o'clock show, their reaction as you're in line for
the nine o'clock show, and everybody knows that thing of like people who are
going oh, snap, yeah, yeah, and they're like crying or they're
like high fiving or stuff, and they're they're nodding at you because they know,
like, oh, this is gonna be you know, you are in
for a treat. This is gonna be magnificent and uh. And it's that
thing that's what makes movies great. That's what makes movie going great, you
know, and everything you know, Yeah, go ahead, now we can
say it's fascinating. We were talking about the long setup and then we gave
some examples, but you did mention even like the movie up and I think
it's one of the greatest examples of the shortest most heartbreaking setups ever. You
know, it's within You're in tears within the first whatever five minutes of that
story of Carl. You know, it's beautiful, and they're just it's just
building up, you know, remember, they're building up for the moment when
he ditches the house to save the boy, you know, and and so
and that's the whole you know that John, you know, was who walked
into the room. Okay, what happens. He crashes the house, He
throws all the stuff out, you know, to give it ballaced. He's
run out of balloons, and you know, uh, and he goes and
saves the boy. And uh, that's that's his Luke Skywalker moment, right
right. And so so in the beginning, you want to say, well,
if the house doesn't mean anything, right again, story math, If
the house doesn't mean anything, moment's not going to mean anything. Everybody's going
to go so what it's a house, Yeah, you know, get another
house, like no, no, no, this house is very special because
it is the embodiment of you know, his relationship with his with his wife.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, ely and and I believe it at various
times he calls the house Ellie, and it's the he's working towards the picture
of the house on the on the mountain. Yeah, and so you're going
to give him that, and then you're gonna take it away. You know,
he's gonna get all the way there, realize it's it's not worth what
he thought it would be worth. And then he's gonna go save the boy.
Great, so you need and I forget who There is a one the
co director of of Inside Out, Ronnie del Carman, I want to say,
Okay, he I believe that was his sequence and that put him on
the map as a star, or you know he's been on the map as
a star anyway, because he's fantastic artists. But he was the guy who
who walked through that sequence and said it's stripped it of its dialogue. He
had temporary music that was that was wonderful for it. This this kind of
very you know, ballad kind of thing, and it was amazing, you
know, just a process of how that sequence came. It came to be
because you know, obviously the first twenty drafts of that sequence were not that
sequence. Yeah, you really had to kind of work on it, work
on it work on it, and so it just wasn't it. It would
make you cry. And I believe it's five minutes and thirty seconds long.
It is not very long in in in pure movie movie terms, but by
the end of it, when you know, just that pan across the doctor's
office, oh my god, you know, just every one of those moments
is completely iconic. It's just it's truly wonderful. And then it gives him
license to do everything that he does, which is he won't sell the house,
smashes the guy on the head when he you know, when he's when
he's threatened, and now he's going to you know, go live this dream
and go to uh, you know this this waterfall great, is amazing.
I was curiously you with your thanks. We've history of like writing on your
own, working in rooms, you know, in television and and now working
like obviously the last few years and animation is the advent of visuals, like
because I don't know if you have an opportunity with the Princess and the Frog
to go down to New Orleans too, or you're part of the research crew
because you know, you were mentioning like how Lasseter was such a huge proponent
of research, like just getting as orb into your DNA, like like you've
probably already done prior, but I was curious. You know, we have
the TV room. We're seeing like this explosion of Golden Age of television,
just amazing shows left and right, and I can only count like because the
power the writers there, like in writers together pushing each other to make it
great. And then you have animation which allows you to I mean my past
working with so many PlayStation work with visual effects, we always had to work
with visuals. We always had something to draw from to try to make it,
you know, better, And I'm wondering, like, because now you
have visual cues like you mentioned and Princess of the Frog, here's a drawing,
a sketch drawing about the fathers, Like that is huge for me,
And I was wondering, have you seen I guess, like, how could
like an independent you know, borrow from this concept of like should they just
intundate themselves with so many look frames or drawings or initial sketches anything like that
to like inundate themselves of what their world would look like. So if they
brought in their own makeshift brain trust group, so everybody connect to like oh,
what's that? What's this? Or you know, how's this fin the
story? I don't know from your any like stories you could share of like
just like you said, you're walking around, you're seeing artists or somebody.
Pretty much the film made in like visual format before even like even one written
word is put on an actual traditional script. I guess I don't know,
right well, that's the that's the fun of the new the new tools,
we'll call it is it's I know that Robert Rodriguez his his process is very
similar to the Pixar process, which is interesting. He kind of pre shoots
his movies and he will just with a handheld camera or I don't know,
a cell phone or whatever. He'll get his actors in a room and he
films his rehearsals and he takes them back and I don't know if he's using
you know whatever, you know, final problem, whatever it is. But
you know, as easy it is as it is to edit something. He
just edits it at home and then he goes in the next day if they're
shooting the next day, and he'll show it to everybody like this is this
is what this is, and here's what I think is wrong with it,
here's what I did to rewrite it, and here we go. You know.
So the second thing you see will be that Woody Allen shoots an entire
movie, edits it and edits it, shows it, you know, it,
takes a look at it, and then I don't know if he gets
outside feedback or or anything. I assume he does, and then reshoots the
entire movie. It's always in his budget that he will shoot it twice.
So you do it, and obviously that you know, the first version is
not just everybody kind of slogging through not wearing their costumes and stuff. It's
an actual movie, you know. And then he shoots it again. So
and I think that that that is a great way to go if you can't.
Ridley Scott storyboards his own movies top to them, and I believe shoots
the storyboards and show you know, shows shows those. So that the first
draft, and the way I look at it is, you know, from
a Disney perspective, is that when guys are drawing, right, they take
a blue pencil. It's very light, you can barely see it, and
they just start drawing and whatever, and they're just and the lines are everywhere,
and they're it's a complete mess, and they're drawing over themselves and they're
doing whatever, and then they start to see it, and then they'll they'll
they'll take out a black pencil and they'll start tagging it down and they'll you
know, okay, great, here the eyes, here's where the eyes go,
here's whatever, because you're kind of trying to see it on the page,
and only a handful of people can just start drawing with a black pencil
and go you're sketching, sketching, sketching until you see it. If you
if you listen to a band right, the band will go you know,
it'll sound terrible the first and then they'll kind of gradually, you know,
come down to whatever they're doing. Sculpture is the same way. It's a
blob, an amorphous blob for so long, and then they start to tack
down little sections. And writers are the only ones who don't do that.
Writers, I'll see them go, oh, I have an idea, you
know, faded go in, you know, and here broke the store day,
and like, who does that? Nobody does that? You don't think
that way. You say, I want to make a movie, I think
it should be kind of like this movie that I loved when I was a
kid, or it should be. I want to make the best you know,
badass six year old whatever magical power movie that I can. Here is
a precedent of other you know, badass six year old. Here's where some
have gone right and others have gone wrong. And this is what moves me
about this kind of movie. This is why these kinds of movies are my
favorite movies. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show. And this is where others have fallen afield.
I think my movie is somewhere in here, and and then you get out
like I'm old school. So I have like I have, you know,
just a clipboard and a fountain pen, and I will sit down and I'll
just start writing. And it's rarely dialogue. It's just what do I love
about these kinds of movies? I love this, I love this, I
love that. Hey, my favorite scene in one of these things was blah
blah blah blah blah, and and my least favorite scene is blah blah blah
blah blah. Excellent. I like to eat my dessert first, so if
I'm writing, I will say, well, here are scenes that should be
in my movie. You know, these are great scenes. And if I
can just string a clothes line between these scenes, I think I'll be okay,
because these are the classic scenes. There should be the mentor scene and
the and so and the equipment, you know, the badass piece of machinery
you know, or the you know, the great gun or whatever it is,
you know, a cool monster, a you know, fantastic spaceship a
you know, always kind of I'll put those in and then I'll say,
okay, well, wait now I'm going to try to make myself crying the
third act and go, you know, yeah, and that's yeah. But
but it's always starting from like a morphous a morphous you know, the the
ink, you know, the paint is wet, there's no paper. I'm
just freestyling until I find like it should be this, and then I'll start
to give it shape and tack it down, and then only last the last
like it's it's. I often will write the entire thing by hand, and
then after I've gone through the whole thing, then I type it into software.
Interesting, do you know, is there a difference for you between like,
uh, plot in character or is it the same like because I could
see like doing an outline constructing like the logic of the world of where you
want this moment to go for the protagonists and maybe the protagon, like you
see like a major change that's going to have to happen for this character.
But once you kind of maybe have like the simple idea laid out, then
do you do you go in and start like thinking like, Okay, the
Dad character a lot right now, my early drafts are serving exposition. Well,
then how do I make that character more interesting? Because there was this
whole I think you were talking about, like in Jason Buff's podcast about how
like in Finding Emo, there was all these wonderful characters, all the supporting
characters, even no matter how small the character is, Like each fish had
some interesting best story, one scar one like was nervous or I don't know
it was this. It was just rich with content because our context, because
it was so each character was so unique that way, as opposed of just
being serving up exposition. Do you see that within those group meetings you have
or or sometimes somebody goes, I have this is the character. I don't
know what story was going to happen with them, but I don't know how
like did you see it built by ways? Right? Right? No?
That that that it's the interesting thing is and it's it's it's fantastic question because
it is I think at the crux of most I'd say a good and ninety
percent of filmmakers don't understand this one specific thing, which is that there should
be no difference between character and story. But there is a huge difference between
character and plot. Okay, the plot is just I was in this uh
it was a masterclass in France, in Marseille, and this there was a
guy who'd done this web these webcasts and stuff like that was you know,
really charismatic guy, really energetic, you know, great storyteller in quotes,
and I'd done this thing and I'll talk about it a little later because it
remind me to tell you this thing because I think it helps all writers,
everybody that I've done it with, with writers, it makes them a lot
better. But this guy is telling this story and he's going on, he's
pitching me this this movie, and he says, oh, and then an
alien comes in and bla bla bla blah blah. He's pitching, pitching more
and more. The Italian guy right, He was like, yeah, and
then this happens, and then and then they fall into an abyss and then
a guy has a gun and whatever and he shoots his grandma and whatever.
And he's just going through, going through and going through, and I'm watching
the audience and I and I stopped him for a second. I say,
watched the audience as you're as you're doing this, keep going, And he's
what and then this happened. There was a big explosion and whatever. And
I said, I said, what what what do you think I saw?
Uh, after about two minutes, everybody started talking to each other. He
just tuned him out. There were a couple of his friends in the back
that were kind of smiling. Really towards the end, everybody was just everybody
was just hiding from the thing because he was. Because it was it was
mostly sorry, I mean to do something to the screens. Have I have
flux? And I didn't realize that it's been it's been kind of making the
image of more sleepy as we But yeah, so I said, look at
the audience, and the audience has just completely tuned him out. I said,
why as well. Uh, he couldn't figure it out. I said,
well, because you lost your character. First, you didn't make me
care about your character. And second, as it's going on, you were
just it's just getting more and more. You were using plot to try to
save you from character. And I said, okay, And I pitched his
own his story the same way, and I pitched it all character. Yeah,
this guy comes in and more than anything else in the world, he
wants this. Oh but you know this guy also wants it and blah blah
blah, and he wants it even more so at the very beginning, the
guy boom whatever, he takes it from him, and now he's sitting there
going, oh, no, what am I gonna do? Now? Aliens
attack and blah blah blah and whatever. And everybody's leaning in as I'm as
I'm telling the story because you care. You know, you give a crap
about the story. Before he was doing plot, what I was doing was
character. And you know, if it's if it's finding Nemo, every character
that Marlin passes should develop him as a character. You're going from the journey
of a guy who's overly cautious to a guy who's going to let his kid
do this thing. In The Incredibles, everything that passes Bob pars. You
know, we set him up as a guy who will save everybody at any
time, you know, whatever you're doing. The whole thing, everybody that
he passes, every experience that he has, is is basically kind of to
show that his addiction has gotten out of control, you know, and until
he even finds an enabler in the nail. Oh great, Actually, I'm
gonna go off and do this thing, and I'm just going to completely ignore
my family, right because those are the two values that are at stake.
It's it's do you are you going to reclaim your your your glory at the
expense of the thing that you that that you know, your future, you
know your family. You were once this guy, now you're this guy.
You need to be more than mister incredible, she says pointedly, you know,
thematically in order to do it. So every single scene is going to
be him deperately clinging to his former life. He's in the meeting with his
boss and he's looking out side and he can't can you know, And he's
just seeing a guy getting his pocket picked and he can't give it up.
You know. He's he's there with the old lady, and the old lady
is worried that she's going to lose her thing, and he can't you know
that that his his new life. He just won't do it. Everything,
everything he's doing is kind of these things butter butterressing it but against each other.
That's the nature of storytelling. That is character. You're developing that character
to the point where the character has to make this decision of like, you
know, I can either go and try to save the you know, save
the city by myself, which I know I cannot do, or I can
trust my family to help me. I can do this as a family,
and off you go. Yeah, you know that. That's that that in
that way, as you're telling the story, it's very clear what's muscle and
what's bone. You know that that or what's wheat and what's chap right that
that any scene that doesn't have him moving towards either on the upside where he's
he is completely like, yes, regaining your former glory is the most awesome
thing in the world you can do. That's the bill to the midpoint,
and he's and then at the midpoint, ha ha, I've killed all these
people and now I'm going to kill you, and he can't get out of
and whatever. Now I can't get out of the room, and he's you
know those those little yeah whatever wind whatever, and now, oh no,
this is where it's gotten you to the you know, to the terrible,
terrible midpoint. And then it's the family is going to go rescue him,
right, So now you're on the downslope, and so everything that happened from
that point on is look how cool this family is when the family is unrestrained.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
to the show. Yeah, until you get to this point where it's he's
bemoaning the fact that, you know, it's almost a false act too.
Right, the rocket is headed towards the city and Bob is sitting there saying,
oh, I can't believe what I've done, you know, do guys
this is really terrible. And his daughter he says, yeah, yeah,
blah blah blah, daddy, you know whatever, And she saved them ball
very easily because he's not thinking about family. He's thinking about himself. Right.
So we're driving, driving, driving for that moment, and that's all
character. You know, every scene in that is a scene that you absolutely
need and none of it is, but none of it should feel like plot.
Yeah, it is all to drive the guy towards making that decision.
It's really interesting because we started our conversation about talking about mastermind groups or accountability
groups, and like how it's so much easier to look at somebody else's problem
or look at what they stand for because we can see from an outside perspective
what's in front of them. But we as individuals are so wrapped up in
our own stuff. We can't, like you mentioned, we can't see our
own get out of our own way. It's all. And we were talking
about there's so much things that we have to unlearn to be able to be
and then we're here we are talking you know, character and story and all
these characters or especially with the Pixar stories we were talking about, and and
you know the stories we were mentioning. There's there's this aspect of baggage or
that there's these known beliefs that they hold on too for so long. But
that third act moment, that John Laster moment he's talking about, has to
be this let go of all that in order to have that transformation at the
end. But it's funny because we were talking, we started talking about it
in real life and we're seeing it happen in story's It's like, oh wow,
that's that's fascinating and and and really that's why I think, that is
why I like to look at well screenwriting everybody, you know, it's the
technology of screenwriting. But really we're storytellers, right, guys in rocking chairs,
you know, saying hey, is this is what's important. And that's
why is because we always we make the same mistakes, you know, all
the time, as human animals, as machines, whatever that we are,
that we we make the same mistakes all the time, and so we tell
ourselves these stories like let go you know of that and embrace the new.
One of the things I'll say, like in masterclasses all the time is you
can learn how to speak French without learning, without forgetting how to speak English.
You know, you can accept a new philosophy, a new way of
thinking. Just try it out and then if you want, you can go
back to what it is is you do. But a lot of people will
say like, well, in a minute, I don't like, you know,
I'm not such a big fan of Disney movies, and you guys are
you know you guys, it's all a factory and blah blah blah, and
I'm not going to make movies like that. I'm like, okay, well,
let me see what it is you've done. Yeah, it's morphus horrendous
kind of what and like, what are you doing? You haven't you've so
resisted all of the kind of rules, and not just necessarily like the Disney
rules or the Pixar rules, but just the rules of general storytelling. You
know, like of that fifty characters, fifty main characters is not a good
way to go. You know that that a film without conflict is not is
probably not going to work all that well. Right, A film that is
about something that nobody in the world cares about is not going to be uh
is not going to be enjoyable. There are but a film, a terribly
constructed film about something I really care about, and a you know, a
person who is who is wonderful, who I want to see more of,
And you know that that film is going to go through the roots. You
know it's gonna be be I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna and people are
gonna say, like, what was that that you were you kept talking about.
You know, I'm gonna go on social media. It's like, okay,
look, I'm gonna go on on the limb and just say that this
movie was the best movie you know, that I've ever seen. And that's
especially from the indiast side. That's what you really likes. Goes in,
breaks into a house, eats porridge, sits in a chair, eats all
the porridge, sits in a chair, breaks it, and then sleeps in
a person's bad So it is an active crime going on. And then three
people return. Three characters return and and one is eating, one, one
is eating, one discovers something is wrong, one sits down, one sits
down, one is oh my god, whatever, and then they go pursue
it. So the baby bear is the is the protagonist of the story.
Now go tell the story, but tell the story in you know, what
are you going to do with the story now you know now you have your
own edge to it. Are you going to tell a story about a boy
who really wants to go to sleep? Are you going to tell a story
who's about a kid who's really hungry? Are you going to tell a story
about a kid with anger issues who is trying to hold it down whatever that
angle is. You know you have you now have the form war, you
know the format, and you can go and tell tell that and then get
good at that, get good at telling that story of doing your cover of
Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Then once you're feeling that, now go start
pitching your own stuff, you know, get that. And the way I
look at it is, you know, you've just seen you just saw Star
Wars. You know you just saw you know, the jj Abrams Star Wars,
and as you were leaving the building, it burned down. There was
an oil fire. The whole thing burned down, you know, all the
friends, everything, And now everybody turns to you and said, oh,
what was it? You know what happened? Yeah. A lot of people
when they pitched, they'll go, okay, well there's a ship and bigger
ship. This kid comes in and he's take out garbage, and then it's
this kind of hipstory. Who was really mean? There's a soccer ball but
you know it does whatever, and it's like, no, you know,
how do you tell that story? You are the last lifeline of this of
the greatest movie ever made. How do you tell it and have that behind
you, but with a story that you already know. Get comfortable with that
if it's it's your tape recorders, whatever, and then go. Then you
have that set of skills and you're not pitching garbage, and you also are
learning from those reps. This pitch as well. This does not pitch well.
You know, this is the essence of storytelling most of the time.
And I mentioned it before, most of the time. Like right now,
I'm doing a you know, this superhero thing, and I watched everything.
It's everything, and I rewatched everything from the point of view of me making
this new movie, and I'm taking notes on it, like, oh great.
You know, they spend a good iron Man spends a good long time
in the middle of the movie just becoming Iron Man. Yeah, Man spends
a good long time in the middle of that movie. And in both you
know, first versions, you know when when Uncle Ben dies, spends a
lot of time on the suit and the web and the thing, you know,
the mechanics of becoming Spider Man. That's a big part of our enjoyment.
They don't just put on the suit and oh here I go. It's
it's a big part of the journey. So great I have to have that
in mine, you know, and just kind of going through it, understanding
it, and then when I pitch it, I'm pitching it like a Star
Wars. I just had this meeting a day or two ago, you know,
and I'll get up, I'll warn around the room, you know,
I'm shooting stuff down whatever. You know. I have this, this this
total enjoyment because I love these movies. You know, I want first I
want them to make my movie. But second, I can't wait to see
my movie, you know. I can't wait to be in the line,
you know for the nine o'clock show when the seven o'clock comes, you know,
comes out. So I love that. So that's my little soapbucket.
I'm glad I said it in the other one and and I'm hopefully, like
I said, I hope it's valuable to your Actually it's extremely valuable because I
had, you know, with my podcast, I have just people will email
me, you know occasionally, and just they's just asking advice or opinions.
And I made a point to a young filmmaker, I said, if you
kind of want to test yourself as a filmmaker, whether or not you're a
good director or not make a short film based off of some very famous short
story that's in public domain, something that has proven like that exists, like
an Edgar Allan Poe story. That's something that's like, Okay, this exists.
This is a historically well known story that has all the elements in there
that make it successful. So if you can one write it, adapt adaptation
of it, and then two, if you're a director, you can test
your directing chops that way because it's all the elements are there. You know,
the stories solid, you know it's a you know, short enough that
you can make it within your means, and then if it falls flat,
then you can go back and figure out why it fell flat, because it
then it puts you because you can't blame anything like I can't blame the story
didn't work or the screenwriter didn't write it right or something like that. It's
will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to
the show. I mean there's all these elements there of like you really really
want to test yourself as a director, that's a good thing. And look
at the look at this exc you know, out of Sundance right there.
The Birth of a Nation's sold for fourteen seventeen four, right, and that's
that was a take on they already established movie. You know, it's his
riff on this movie that you can't wait to see because it's definitely a long
overdue take on that movie. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, and
it should it should be fun and and that enhances the viewing of the movie.
And I think too. Yeah, with a lot of short films that
I see, I'll always say, like, what short films did you watch
to inspire you to do this? Because most of the short films I've seen,
especially the you know, the good one, you know, the Pixar
ones and also the really good live action ones, are very very simple.
One one person or two, you know, in a relationship, and then
that slowly evolves over time. There was a you're talking about riffs on some
There was this YouTube thing that happened that I thought was great. Was the
Power Rangers thing with I don't know if you saw that the fan film or
which one, Yeah, the fan film, the Power Rangers fan film.
I guess they had to take it down, but it was fantastic. It
was like I'd never you know, this guy's take on Power Rangers. You
know, the wink is of course it's Power Rangers, but it's like the
yeah, you know they're Dams vander Being and stuff like, oh, this
is this is seriously enjoyable. This guy can I can't wait to watch this
guy make a movie. You know, the Deadpool trailer, you know,
the little sizzle off of that. You know, that's the first time director
and now of course the biggest highest grossing I take my for a time director.
It was you know, it is something that we've seen before, you
know, you know, it's it's a thing, and the way he did
it was just fantastic, you know, and obviously like because the other thing
that I would put to that is the short story that you adapt should be
one that you absolutely love, and the way that you do it should be
you should be showing everything that you do great. You know. If you
are a great cinematographer, it should be a beautiful movie. If you are
great with character, it should be or whatever. If you're funny, you
know, don't try to wake funny if you're not funny way by all means,
because one bad joke will kill you, you know, as far as
the enjoyment of it. But yeah, if you can work. If your
best friend is a fantastic actor, you know, go do you know,
get on him, you know, call it every favor. You know,
hey, I give the speech at your wedding, you know, show up
for four an hour and a half and and help me. Help me in
my movie. Robert Rodriguez will talk about that, like, don't anything that
you know, I have a friend that has a bar. I have another
friend that owns a bus. You know, great, there's going to be
a bus chase and part of this is going to take place in my friend's
bar. Awesome. Then you know, production value goes through the roof and
you're on the map as a as a serious filmmaker. Yeah, and definitely,
like all those processes helps. The idea is to kind of keep yourself
in check, to keep humbled, so that, like you said, if
you're to put yourself out there as a writer, as a filmmaker, as
a storyteller, to utilize a brain trust kind of concept, you have to
be willing to accept, like to to to let go of what you've created
and know that it's not yours anymore. I think Laster talked about that.
He said that when they created Buzzing Woody, there was a point where they
realize it's no longer theirs. It's like now they have a responsibility to serve
those characters honestly and and truthfully to the audience, you know. And I
think that's a very very important because you have to you have to listen that
people don't just give notes just for the sake of giving notes. Yeah,
they're addressing, they're addressing a problem. Sometimes a problem took place pages before
what they're addressing. You know, sometimes the wheels were off the wagon way
before. You know, this particular scene that that drove everybody nuts. You
know, it was a setup. It was the amp up to it.
And uh, and you have to be open to that. I was giving
notes to a writer. He sent me something and said, oh, I
just want to hear your input. Okay, I'm gonna be tough. Oh
yeah, that's okay. And I gave him the notes and it was and
you know, me like I like to talk, but it was it was
I would say, four fifths him defending the thing that he had done and
only one fifth of me giving the note. And I was like, look,
we're not going to get anywhere with this because I'm not just giving you
notes because I want you to talk me out of it. You know,
I know your intent is on the piece of paper. If it is not
clear, you know, you've got to work with it. You know,
it's not just you know, I will give this note, but probably you
know, everyone that you give it to will probably give these same notes.
And if they don't, they're not doing you any favors. But that but
part of the process when you're a when you're an artist, it hurts to
get notes. It physically hurts you. You know, it's like somebody is
roughing up your baby and you just have to. I think it was David,
the guy who created Family Ties. He said, you just write down
the note. That's all you need to do. Understand it, write it
down, then, you know, conclude the conversation, punched the pillows or
whatever, you know, bry in the shower, and then and then go
and look at the notes and say, Okay, what did I This will
ultimately make it better something you'll just cross off and say, I don't care.
I'll get this note nine times out of ten. Most of the time
it's like, you know what, I didn't sell it. I just there's
something you know, my intention was to do this. I didn't. That's
what threw him off and this But of course you have to start off with
the intention, right, You have to start off with a strong motivated character.
It has to be very clear what it is the story that you're telling.
People get bored with plot. They are excited with story with you know,
with the drive and the conflict. You know, even Aristotle talked about,
you know, intention, obstacle anything was. I was watching Don't Nabby
right because the last episode was on, and I'm oh, just in tear
a kid from Black Kid from Detroit, you know, main demo. But
but it made me go back to the first episode and watch that. So
I'm watching that in the first three episode and and it's all there, you
know. And and Julian Fellows in an interview, he says, well,
I was watching West Wing and I saw that how Aaron Sorkin crafted the characters
in the pilot of West Wing, and I took that as my template.
And then that's what I did in Downtown Abbey. Interesting now you would think
those two shows are completely completely different. But a structuralist, a writer who
knows craft and loved crafts, it's the same thing. So the flirtation between
the you know, Carson and you know this is that's that's there, and
the little dynamics and just the sisters, all of that's there, and uh,
you know, progress is coming. I mean the opening event is is
the Titanic, you know, goes down and kills dozens who were set to
inherit the estate. And now it's you know this this this other guy so
like cheers, right, this person is coming in, you know, he's
lost the waitress, this new person comes in. You know, it's it
clocks along. But it's all story. You know, it's all story.
You're you're driving towards this thing that the world is changing, and the you
know, the the head butler and in the lord of the estate are saying,
oh my god, I don't know what's you know, what are we
going to do? And that's the tension in every episode. That's great.
This is great storyteller, right, and and those are the tools that has
nothing to do with the software. Yeah, yeah, exactly nothing. You
know, I don't care what method. You know, what if he's a
movie magic, if Julian Fellows is reading writing it with a quill, you
know it is it is it is great storytelling, and and that's what's gonna
that's what it's gonna save you. You could film that thing, you know,
with a cardboard box, and it will be compelling television. Yeah.
Yeah, you know you mentioned some things like clear is it is? You
know, when you're giving notes or feedback or accepting that. I don't remember
where I heard this before, but I wanted to implement because somebody had asked
me, like just advice, like me to give advice like when you're giving
like when somebody read your script. I said, well, one thing you
can do to get constructive feedback. I don't I really don't know where I
heard this before, but I thought it was great. Was simply, Uh
was simply when you read the script, can you read my story? Can
you tell me one? Is it clear? Two? If it is clear,
is it interesting? We'll be right back after a from our sponsor and
now back to the show. The exactly that way. That way, you're
not there's no there's no like you can't be defensive about it. It's just
like, well I read it, I wasn't sure about what happened here or
why the character did this. He goes, well, it is clear,
but it felt like stuff I've seen before. You know that way, it's
not a personal attack on you. Like, okay, so that I can
work on that note and that you can kind of police yourself on right,
Yeah, that that you. I was working with Dan Fogelman, who who
had written Cars and You Would Love, and we were working on a draft,
yeah, a movie for Disney Live Action Animation Hybrid. And one of
the things that he said to me, which was great, he says,
on every page, assume that the person reading it might be on a treadmill,
and and that that person, you know, you have to make the
intention very clear, the obstacle very clear. Tell the story that you're going
to tell. Clarity, clarity, clarity, because you don't want the note.
That's one note that you can easily take off the table. It wasn't
clear. I like one of one of the things that I love. I'm
I'm a writer who likes a study writing. I like, I'll listen to
anybody who's talking about how they're how they you know, every everybody's lecture is
everybody's series. I love that stuff. And one thing was this guy,
the guy who wrote four Weddings in a Funeral, whose name is Escape,
but he had also written Love Actually, and before that he wrote this great
series called Blackadder, and he was, you know, Royan Atkinson's like kind
of main guy, and and one thing that he said is, you know,
don't be afraid of writing on the note. And he says one of
the most famous lines, and I think it's love actually, as he says
he's sitting there, he's riding around it, around it, around it,
and he says, I'm just gonna say what it is it's happening, and
he wrote the line I'm just a woman talking to a man, just a
girl talking to a boy. No, that's I think. I was actually
nodding Hill right with Julie Robins exactly. Yes, oh guy, you're right.
Don't be afraid to ride in the nose. That's such a great like
simple a vice, like yeah, then if it's then if if people don't
like it, then find then that's a that's a whole separate conversation. But
they won't go what what's going on? You know this stage it was like
they're kind of talking around something. I don't really get it whatever, and
then it just lost me, like no, you know that that what is
it? Like, you know, Darth Vader states his intentions pretty much that
you know, yeah lines, you know, he's like, you know,
I will you know he states isn't tentions. That's why that's one of those
things that you know you can dance around, but you really have to hit
at some point or another. Is you know what what Pixar would call the
I want song. You know that that nobody does. Everybody sings and I
want song in some way or another and go, I like that sing that
one song. You know, I can't I talk to you for There's so
much I would love to having. I would love to have another opportunity to
have you come back on too. We could talk more. You know,
you're working with Aaron's workin and just other writing. You have your master's classes
coming up. I definitely make sure you have. Everybody has the links and
promote. You know, Rob Edwards dot Net. I know you're you're starting.
That's the community. Yeah, you can also find me a at I
am Rob Edwards on Twitter. Okay, great, yeah that's that's new.
Oh that's brand new. Perfect. I was terrified of what I would do
on Twitter and finally I said, okay, just put it away at three
am. Yeah, don't don't. I try not to twitter too much,
but but I most uh, anything that happens that of interest will be on
there. Oh fantastic, Okay, yeah, all the blog posts, all
that stuff will be well, you know as we wrap you know, wrap
all this stuff up. I can't thank you enough for taking a time,
your generosity to share with me your knowledge, your experience, and this aspect
of the brain Trust, or of any sort of communal like writing group that
has affected this. Like that was really important to me because I'm trying to
show to my audience like I want to apply this stuff. So like literally,
I think the next episode I'll be doing for my podcast is a video
hang out with some people I bring together to illustrate like here it is,
you know, a brain trust, my own version of a brain trust group
put together on on the on the script that I'm then we're I don't know,
yeah exactly with those improvms. You know, yeah, the rules established,
the rules. You're clearly you know, hit the bigger problems. First.
It's a yes and you know what if and and yes and yeah and
and piling on and you know, best idea, you know, no bad
ideas. Just build build build, right, Yeah, that's that's awesome.
I think it's something so the people to see it, like, oh,
I see how that's working, and maybe they can stop before they settle on
their story, like they can push themselves. And it's really just it's a
call. It's a cry out, a call to the rest of the independent
filmmakers out there, like just because you can make it, just don't make
it just yet, you know, like use use the right tools, you
know, don't you like I always say, I want to say, you're
using the wrong tools. You know. Just stay stay, stay with you
know three about you know, index cards and post it notes and and stuff,
and work the story. Don't lock it down so so early. It's
like you don't lack a painting after the first jroke and and use use other
people. It's a told we tell stories, you know. A big part
of a Princess in the Frog we were we were pitching that thing all the
time. You know. I love him to pitch. I will pitch people
say hey, what are you working on? I will you know, I'll
just take over the party. Oh, let me tell you this. It's
upon a time because I want to see if people are gonna if people's eyes
are gonna glaze over. Yeah, if people's eyes are gonna glaze over,
I want to see him glaze over. If people are if people are leaning
in, if people laugh at something. Then the next time I tell that
thing, I'm gonna tell it's gonna be twice long, you know, till
that thing, you know, through a colosseum. Uh, and I'm gonna
avoid you know, just like the plague, the part where people's eyes glazed
over, and I could probably tell why their eyes eyes glazed over. Yeah,
it's that second question. It's yeah, it was clear but not interesting.
Okay, Yeah, this is amazing. That's something. Yeah, so
so awesome. So yeah, no, no, yeah, please let me
know when that happens. I can't wait to Yeah, I I put it
together. Actually, it's funny because I wrote a book as an experiment.
I was telling my audience and the podcasts like, hey, if you know,
filmmakers are just we're making digital products. And a lot of authors for
the longest time have been writing digital products for Amazon. You know, you're
just selling a digital product. So what are the mechanisms of like writing,
creating something digitally and then selling it. What are the marketing mechanisms of selling?
So I said, I'll write a book and put myself as a guinea
pick. So I did that last year and put it on Amazon, and
I've been selling it and I'm seeing what works and what doesn't work. But
part part of that process of writing a book, I I also record an
audio recording version of an audiobook of it. And I was like, wait
a minute, this is I've seen this happen because I know The Blacklist has
a podcast, and so I did an early version of my script by recording
it as an audio basically play. I was reading, like it's like an
audio table read, but it's you know, you can listen to it.
So the next I'm rewriting, doing the rewrites, and I'm going to I'll
record it. And that's sort of my way of like inviting my guests on
who will be part of this makeshift mass I'm sorry. Brain Trust group is
like you can either read the script or you can listen to it all the
bells and whistles with the actors I put in place, and the audio cues
and the music, so you can have like an audio experience of it.
And then that way it's easier for them. Like you said, they're on
a treadmill, they're in traffic, and they can listen to the story.
And then that way, when they come to the table, they can tell
me like what worked or what wasn't clear or what was it and then we
can take the brain trust meeting to the next level, because hopefully I have
to do something to create that visual experience or an emotional experience that's just not
just the written word. At least that's my intentions, right exactly. And
starting yeah, starting with yourself. What I love about that is that you
started with yourself as an audience. You know, what is the book I
most want to read? And then you know and then and you started there
so so you know what it what it needs to be. You also did
that, you know, kind of what I love that Tim Ferriss thing of,
like I'm a I'm a guinea pig. Yes, I'm just going to
throw myself into this and see what happens, which I think is a good
life experience. Like get used to getting bruised. You know, I say
it all the time. Embrace the suck. You know it all sucks.
You're always going to hear somebody going like, oh, that's stupid, and
you have to just say I know it's stupid now, but you know in
a couple of months it won't be. Yeah, we'll be right back after
a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. If you
tell if if I get the right you know, if I get the right
stuff, so so yeah, so so put yourself. You know, putting
yourself in the in the mouth of the lion is a great idea. Yeah,
that's that's that's gonna be a lot of fun. And you will you
will probably learn volumes from it because you'll have that that delicious like you says
flop set kind of thing. Yeah, like oh no, this is embarrassing,
and then you know, you always pull yourself out of the ashes.
Everybody does. Very very cool. Thank Rob, Thank you, thank you
so much. I can't thank you enough. Really, thank you for having
me. I want to thank Scott so much for doing such a great job
with this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about
in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV
Ford Slash three thirty. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As
always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasted Bulletproove Screenwriting dot tv. H