WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:08.800 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:13.679 podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof 3 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:19.640 Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three thirty False when things change, I'll be happy 4 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:25.960 True, when I am happy things will change. Kyle Sea's broadcasting from a 5 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.920 dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next 6 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:35.200 draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of 7 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:39.960 screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, 8 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:45.560 Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. 9 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:50.119 I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored 10 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:56.719 by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script 11 00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:00.399 Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the 12 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.680 project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, 13 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.200 indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get 14 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.840 coverage from a reader that used to reading tempowl movies when your movie is going 15 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.400 to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that. 16 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.920 At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, 17 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.840 WM, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, 18 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.439 The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or 19 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:36.200 TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my screenplay dot 20 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:42.079 Com. Enjoy this episode with guest host Scott McMahon. Okay, today's episode 21 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:47.000 I'm super excited by today. I have screenwriter Rob Edwards on It's Bonkers. 22 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:51.560 It's like over two hours long, but is just pack with such great information. 23 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.239 I wanted to dig deeper into one area that I have a particular interest 24 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.760 in. It's the Pixar Brain Trust storytelling meetings. So how does Rob fit 25 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.239 in? But here's a quick bio of Rob's work. Rob Grip and Detroit 26 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:07.080 moved out to Los Angeles and had an agreement with his dad that he would 27 00:02:07.080 --> 00:02:10.560 find work in the industry within the first nine months he was there. Now 28 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:14.919 here's where Rob's hustle is on full display. Now this was back in the 29 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.879 mid nineteen eighties. He would call every production company in town and asked the 30 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.840 person on the other line if they wanted to hear a joke or a piece 31 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.400 of gossip. Most of the time, Rob was able to get a laugh 32 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:29.439 from them with his jokes, while those who picked the gossip would share even 33 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.000 juicier stories with Rob of their own. Now, all the people at these 34 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:36.719 production companies would ask what Rob wanted. Now, Rob didn't ask for anything 35 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:38.360 return, He just said that he would call back and let them know. 36 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.319 So when he calls back the people at these production companies they remembered him, 37 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.759 and when he asked for work, they were more inclined to hire him because 38 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:49.919 the fact that at least there would be a guy around the office who could 39 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.080 tell jokes all day. Robert worked these production gigs during the day and at 40 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:58.759 night write his scripts. Now the hustle paid off because he was eventually hired 41 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:01.639 as a writer for television before he was twenty one. Then that's crazy. 42 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.520 Since then, here are Rob's credits. He's been a writer on Full House, 43 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.319 in Living Color, The Fresh Prince of bel Air, which most of 44 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:14.039 the stories are based on his own experience while attending prep school in Detroit. 45 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.759 In fact, Rob went to the same school as Aaron Sorkin, who Rob 46 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:21.280 worked with on Studio sixty later on. Now, we didn't get a chance 47 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:23.560 to go into detail about working with Aaron Sorkin, but I do hope to 48 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:28.520 have Rob back again one day, so there's talk about more stories. You 49 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.240 know. Rob's work eventually landed him over at Disney, where he wrote Treasure 50 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.800 Planet and The Princess and the Frog. Rob was there at Disney when the 51 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.000 Pixar guys took over story development, and that is where we pick up the 52 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:44.319 story. I've always been fascinated by how Pixar continually knocks it out of the 53 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.080 park with their stories. In the book Creativity Inc. By Ed Catmill, 54 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:52.280 who was one of the founders of Pixar, explains how the development of this 55 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:57.439 brain trust group has been proven to be invaluable to the storytelling process for Pixar. 56 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.280 So I'm thinking, how does it work? What happens in those rooms 57 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.199 that is different than getting studio notes or working in a writer's room, and 58 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.599 now here today we need to find out because Rob worked firsthand in these brain 59 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.280 trust meetings for The Princess and the Frog. What I hope you get from 60 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.360 this episode is some real world strategies of how to make your stories better. 61 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.000 I mean, after all, it's not every day you get to sit in 62 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:25.000 on a Pixar storytelling meeting, So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Rob 63 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.680 edwords with the film Trooper. The goal was to try to help sort of 64 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:34.120 the uber independent filmmaker, the one that things have changed so much in the 65 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.360 filmmaking landscape. Obviously, you have the studio system, you have sort of 66 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.199 like the indie Hollywood like people that have one foot in the studio system and 67 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.519 put put in like the film international film market. And there's probably like ninety 68 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.720 percent of everybody now that has a camera and can edit movies on their laptop 69 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:55.240 right now. They've entered the scene. But there's a different sort of business 70 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:59.279 economics for them, and you know, we're just sort of discovering it. 71 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:05.439 And but at the core of all this is still telling a great story. 72 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:11.160 So because I also came from the video game world. For like twelve years, 73 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.199 I worked at Sony PlayStation and I was a cinematic supervisor there making you 74 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:21.600 know, movies for video games. But our department was considered fluff because at 75 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:27.519 the heart of all video games is the gameplay. So if movies and television 76 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.600 is, if story is king. Then in video games, gameplay is king 77 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:35.079 because you can have amazing graphics on your video game, but if it's sluggish, 78 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:41.279 if it's not fun to play, people put it aside. So I 79 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:46.800 wanted to if you would indulge me, just like, imagine this setup where 80 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:53.360 we have these uber independent filmmakers that they are learning the skill sets as a 81 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.360 filmmaker to shoot at it, you know, direct what it may be, 82 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.680 but we do see a lot of it fall short in terms of the storytelling 83 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:08.800 aspect of things. And with your history, with your experience, I'm really 84 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:15.120 curious about what you saw in the transition one working in writers rooms, working 85 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:18.959 in collaboratively, but then on top of that working with Disney, especially on 86 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:26.199 that transition when Pixar you know, came in, And I would really love 87 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.839 to know more about could you take us through a little journey of like how 88 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.240 the brain trust meetings work or because if if what I'm trying to do is 89 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:41.959 if there's something there, there's these nuggets there that we can then identify and 90 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.680 say, Okay, so if you're like an uber independent filmmaker and you're writing 91 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.480 your story right now, how can you simulate on your own by we were 92 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:53.519 talking about the accountability group, you know or masterminds. Could you create something 93 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.439 like that that's very specific to creating your own version of a brain trust group? 94 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:02.680 And if so, would be those inner workings that that we could apply 95 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.040 that'd be like, oh, like, how do you get in a room 96 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:12.720 where people can be free to be have candor without being consulting you know exactly? 97 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:15.959 Well, that's see, that's the thing I mean, the question is 98 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:21.240 is kind of the answer because it's that is the for me at at Disney 99 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:28.319 Pixar, I saw the pre John Lasseter Disney, you know, with Treasure 100 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:31.279 Planet. That was all you know, the old regime where there were levels, 101 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:36.839 levels after levels of middle management and uh and everybody, and you know, 102 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:40.839 sometimes a note would come down from on high, you know whatever, 103 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.839 and it would get some something simple like somebody would just read something and say, 104 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.480 hey, I wonder if we could do this, and then middle management 105 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:53.680 would just pound us and say this has to happen. You know, there's 106 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.480 no you know, uh, there is no other version. And we would 107 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.319 look at it and we would say, hey, look we tried this. 108 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.680 It doesn't work. It makes the movie bad. And they would say, 109 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:07.279 no, we got this note and you have to do it. And then 110 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.240 we would do it and it would go back to the person, you know, 111 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.279 the voice on high and he would say, what is this? This 112 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.680 is this is crap. They said, well, this was your note. 113 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:18.519 This isn't you know this addresses your note? Like no, no, no, 114 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.399 that was just a thought. You know, that didn't work. You 115 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:26.120 should have thrown it out. And that's what you know, middle management kind 116 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.720 of does to kill you. What's great about the brain Trust is that it's 117 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:39.200 it's too one is I'll say, the impossible part of it. We'll start 118 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.120 there. The impossible part of it is you're never going to find yourself in 119 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.399 a room with Brad Bird and you know, Anderson, the doctor, Bobby, 120 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.960 and that these guys are gonna say, hey, it's very important that 121 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.799 your movie is good, you know, and we'll invest in it with with 122 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:03.200 an artist's heart. And you know, that's very tough. Having said that, 123 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.480 you can construct rooms of filming before they were Pisarre, there were just 124 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.120 a bunch of guys who almost got shut down, you know. For Toy 125 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.080 Story, Toy Story was a mess. The first draft of Toy Story, 126 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.720 the first version, first set of reels of Toy story was a mess. 127 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.320 What he's yelling at everybody? You know, everybody was cowering in fear. 128 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.039 It was the most by their admission, the most unlikable film ever. And 129 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:33.360 then uh what what what Pete Peyton Bob said was that Pete doctor I said 130 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:39.519 that Andrew Setton kind of went into a room and figured it out. You 131 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:41.960 know, he went into a room with all of the texts, you know, 132 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.600 the Doc Truby whatever and Robert McKee and all the notes that they had 133 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.480 had from everything, along with his own thoughts about you know, movies that 134 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.559 he'd like, the notes that they had gotten. You know, why wasn't 135 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:58.559 picks, why it wasn't toy story working. We'll be right back after a 136 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:07.360 word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And how had 137 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.919 they arrived at this place where even Steve Jobs was saying like, okay, 138 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:16.720 guys, maybe it's maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right the right fit. 139 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.080 And he came out and said, I got it. It needs to 140 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.039 be this and this and this and those are the rules that you always see, 141 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.399 you know, in their ted talks and that you know of of what 142 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.279 they do, which they frequently break By the way, guys, in every 143 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.559 movie they have happy villages. They just don't call the happy villages. There 144 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.039 is a you know, there is an I want song. Everybody has to 145 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:46.399 state what it is they want. But those rules, basically what they do 146 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.759 is they enforce the rules and the way that the the the brain Trust works. 147 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:56.720 At least what I saw is that they start off. What you don't 148 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:01.360 get that you do get sometimes from your buddies is hey, a great movie. 149 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.840 Yeah, and that's that's the worst thing in the world. You know, 150 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.720 it's just it's the the uh, I would say, savagery of low 151 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:16.639 expectations. This is very good. Yes, don't change a word of it. 152 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.159 That's awful. What you say is, okay, what is the biggest 153 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.320 problem? That's where That's where andrewsand would usually start. So, okay, 154 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.919 what is the biggest problem. Let's start there, and then let's let those 155 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.679 things filter down because some of the smaller problems that people have may be things 156 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.799 that started with the bigger problems. When you see when you say a big 157 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.399 problem, is that the actual what's the biggest problem of the story not working? 158 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:41.759 Or what is the biggest problem in the story, or like, what 159 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.879 is the protagonist's problem. The biggest problem with the story not working. Okay, 160 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.039 and it and it is it is. Your buddy will say, oh, 161 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.720 it works, it just needs this a the brain trust says it's not 162 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:03.120 working. You know, the the the the default is it doesn't work. 163 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:05.240 These movies just don't work, you know. And if they are, if 164 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:09.519 they're good, it's still not good enough. You know, they're not great. 165 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.919 They're not everybody's favorite movie. You're not gonna you're not gonna turnstile. 166 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:16.759 You know, you're not gonna leave the theater, buy a ticket and come 167 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.360 right back in. Yeah. Yet, especially in the first second draft, 168 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.720 a lot of people will stop there. That's a that's a major problem. 169 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.639 I see a lot is it. Writers will say they'll do a draft or 170 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:28.799 two and they'll say, oh, great, you know this is good. 171 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.080 It all works, and then they'll stop. You can't. You have to 172 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.759 say, okay, well what you have to plus it? You have to 173 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:37.720 say, Okay, what's the next level of this? You know, we 174 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.480 have a really great uh eddemole has a has a has a great scene. 175 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.120 She's auditioning the costumes for the New Incredibles. Okay, that's fine, but 176 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.240 what's the next level of it. You know, oh great, let's put 177 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.879 her on a chair and the tier goes back and forth and we have everything, 178 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.639 you know, we show everything as it's happening. Okay, awesome, 179 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.320 you know. Now it's plus you know, and then can you plus it 180 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.080 even more the reactions to it all that kind of stuff, because yeah, 181 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.960 I'm sorry, that's definitely like a flaw within like this world of the uber 182 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.720 independent, like they kind of work a script a little bit, but they 183 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.600 just get it too good enough. They're like, I think I can make 184 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.600 this right, right, right exactly, you know, and you can make 185 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:22.120 it. Really, you can make anything. And sometimes that's the best thing 186 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.639 a professional can do for you is just say, okay, this, you 187 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:30.080 can make this. This is fine. You know, you can roll the 188 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.200 cameras, it'll all, it'll all shoot well, but you're gonna get creamed 189 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.639 by the by the critics. You know. You're it's good enough for forty 190 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.600 four percent ripe tomato, you know, but you're not going to get that 191 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:46.679 ninety nine unless you super super push it. And especially with independent films, 192 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.879 there are fantastic independent films, and then there are some that you just say 193 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:56.200 like, oh, you know, I can yeah that when they when your 194 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.639 friends send you the links. Yeah, yeah, everybody knows you watch it. 195 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.159 It takes you four four times to get all the way through it because 196 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.440 you're just kind of like, okay, well this is this is okay, 197 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.440 but nothing is really gripping, you know, getting me gripped to the screen. 198 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.919 On the other hand, you'll see, like you know, the Marvel 199 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:20.320 films, the new you know, the new Marvel films, the obviously the 200 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:24.279 Pixar films, films that are well told. They drive you. You know, 201 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:30.960 you instantly have a character that you understand that you really want them to 202 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.039 achieve their goals, and then the opposition is just monumental. And then you're 203 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.399 just watching them be clever and cool and and wonderful and make their way through 204 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:45.279 the story. Yeah, well then that is that is a school of storytelling. 205 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.120 And the way that you get to that is that thing where you know, 206 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.399 somebody at the table, hopefully everyone at the table, says, look, 207 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.279 let's start with protagonists. What does the protagonist want and how much do 208 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.720 they want it? Straight up? You know, first question. I'll see 209 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.799 dozens of scripts, stacks and stacks of scripts, and I'll ask thembut I'm 210 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:07.879 twenty pages into this, I can't tell who you know, what the protagonist 211 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.679 wants. If I can tell who the protagonist is, I can't tell what 212 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:15.399 they want. And that just sucks. You know. That means you know 213 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.840 you have terrible friends read your script, you know with any honesty and told 214 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.120 you you know, look, it is a chore to turn the pages of 215 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.799 the script. Can I ask you with the I know that you know obviously 216 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:33.639 Pixar Disney is and it is animation. And in the pitch process, like 217 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.600 when the brain Trust group comes together, is it just is the initial meeting 218 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.960 just the script phase or do they come like here's the script phase with some 219 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.279 storyboards or you know, they put up a board and somebody acts it out, 220 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.879 or like how does the how does the other members acquire the story or 221 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.080 is it presented to them or do they actually read a script come into the 222 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.200 meeting? And I guess the second part of the question, is there like 223 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.080 a moderator, is you know right? Or is it more of a loose 224 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.799 like all right, everybody, this is a story we're making, you know, 225 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.000 Rob's news story. He's the director on it. We read the script 226 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.200 or we've seen the pitch, are ready for their pitch, or like, 227 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.840 how does that? How does the room work? Then I'm just curious because 228 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.360 if I'm going to do something like on an uper independent level, should I 229 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.200 come to the table with some storyboards and present it as much as possible. 230 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.480 I'm I'm just trying to figure out how I can the best I can to 231 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.399 simulate what they're doing in the brainch Yeah exactly, Yeah, well Anderson has 232 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:33.720 those things is be be wrong as early as possible. You're gonna be wrong, 233 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.679 you know, It's and again that's always the assumption. It is broken. 234 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.399 It was broken until the last possible second. And even Ron Clements and 235 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.759 John Musker, Yeah, you know Princes the Frog and your planet, yeah 236 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.799 planet, and you know, uh a little thing called Little Mermaid, a 237 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.919 little thing that those guys what Don Hall, the head of story He would 238 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:02.519 say, they like to leave the paint wet, meaning that you're always developing, 239 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.960 You're always you're always coming up with ideas. You're leaving that door open 240 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:11.200 for that new, wonderful idea to come in. Even when I was working 241 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.880 with Aaron Sorkin on Studio sixty, he would we would talk about Yo. 242 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.920 It was kind of a paperless office. You know, you don't write it 243 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:25.440 down, don't lock any idea down. It's just you're just talking out stuff. 244 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.880 So when you start off with with with with John Lasseter and I was 245 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:33.079 working on a project called King of the Elves, was based on a Philip 246 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.480 K. Dick short story. Okay, And what you do is you start 247 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.000 talking about who are the main character is going to be? You know, 248 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:41.960 And in this case it was kind of like I wanted to just for me 249 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.119 as a writer, I wanted to address some of what I was going through 250 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:52.079 with my I have two sons and and just this idea of what is it 251 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.400 What are you looking for a son to do? When do you know that 252 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.799 a son has is ready to go off to college, is ready to you 253 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.400 know, has become a man. You know, as a father, you're 254 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:06.200 always searching around for stuff. You're trying to figure out fatherhood as you go. 255 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.200 And so what is it? You know, what is that look that 256 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.200 you want to see in your son's eyes that says I'm ready? And how 257 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.519 do you get there? There? And can we do that? In the 258 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.960 in the in the course of this this story, which is essentially about these 259 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:29.519 sides, which is essentially about these uh elves and this guy who essentially inherits 260 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:36.319 and inherits this elf world. So yeah, so so so you start there, 261 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:37.920 Okay, well these are this is the emotional palette. This is what 262 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.279 I think is is going to be fun. Let me kill that thing. 263 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.160 Sure, sure, go ahead, Sorry about that, you want to clean? 264 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.880 Where did I start? We're talking about your You're working a story about 265 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.599 you have two boys, but you know, when do you get that moment? 266 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.480 How do you how do you capture that moment when it's in their eyes 267 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.000 that they're ready for manhood, are ready to leave the nest or whatnot? 268 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.880 Yeah? Exactly, yeah, and so yeah, so for me, that's 269 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.599 what I was exploring. That's just what I'm exploring in life. And I 270 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:08.039 thought, okay, this is a great way to to to write it and 271 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.839 kind of you know, share it with people. I'll have a lot of 272 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.039 insights on it. It'll it'll be informative to me. It'll be a movie 273 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.039 that I would want to watch. Which start And then I was talking to 274 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.279 John about it and John said, oh, man, my son is sixteen 275 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.880 two, and there's this look they give you and and everything. We just 276 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:30.240 started sharing stories about you know, just how do you get through to them? 277 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.319 And what do you give them? And you know, just how do 278 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.880 you raise a boy? And we're sharing the story, shared story, shared 279 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:37.799 stories here, and I said, okay, excellent, I know, I 280 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.759 know what I'm going to do. So I go off from that basic conversation 281 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.759 because I know, okay, good, he's an audience I'm an audience member. 282 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.039 And that's another one of the Andrew Stanton Yeah that I cling to, 283 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:52.480 which is a film goer first, a film maker second. So I go 284 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:59.279 I set out to look at the story, which is very light. We'll 285 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:06.200 be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the 286 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:11.119 show, and say, okay, what can I do? Basically, how 287 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.119 can I get a rise out of John? You know, I'm gonna story 288 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.640 what I do is going to get a rise out of John. What are 289 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.279 going to be those real, great, honest moments that we can do? 290 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.720 So I go through what we know story team. We we kind of plot 291 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.960 and there's it's fantastical and it's all kinds of stuff, but at its core 292 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.079 it's got this really great emotional emotion to it, just like Princess and Froger 293 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.480 and Evos. Yeah, yeah, and and then and then you are pitching 294 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:44.319 kind of a wall of drawings. Uh, you know, first act is 295 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:48.200 on one wall. Actually second act is on it, so on two walls, 296 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:49.559 and then the third act is on the is on the next wall, 297 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.680 you know, because for a second act is always in two parts of two 298 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:59.200 yeah, with the midpoint and then uh you know. And and it's funny 299 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.920 because John will and I use this method all the time. John walks in 300 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.880 and he goes third act, he walks right up to it and he's, 301 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.759 Okay, where's that moment? You say, well, you know it's it's 302 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:15.240 there. And what he's looking for is what's the epiphany? What's that little 303 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.160 thing you know, where the the uh where you know where he is going 304 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:25.039 to turn into a star or when you know the both Tiana and Vine are 305 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:29.400 going to decide, you know, to uh that there to trade their journey 306 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.480 for their relationship all the things they want. What is that? What is 307 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.319 that moment? Like in yeah, in every you know, when when Luke 308 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.400 I was you know, when when Luke chooses the you know, the force 309 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.599 over the over the right, you know, what is that and what is 310 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.279 the and then you go back and you say okay, great, well, 311 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.119 what are the elements I need to tell? That's that story. And so 312 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.640 he's looking at that point at the mechanics, and then you go through it. 313 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.160 You pitch it once he's once he has bought off on that that moment 314 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.920 working great, Oh yeah, I can see that. I can see crying 315 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.160 at that moment. Then you go back and he says okay, you know, 316 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.960 he sits down in his chair and he says, okay, Act one, 317 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:17.079 Scene one, A flaming qualifier comes in from space and whatever, and 318 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.720 you're trying to give it as good a look as you can. Yeah, 319 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:27.920 you know, it doesn't help you to soft sell a pitch, you know, 320 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.759 even if it is rough, even if you just have little heads with 321 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:33.920 smiley faces on it. Yeah, you pitch it. You know, it's 322 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.160 your favorite movie. So you're you're you're going with it, going with it, 323 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.319 going with it, you sell out and go and then he says, 324 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.640 okay, great, I see it got slow here, it got slow here 325 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.640 whatever, I bought off on the ending. But and then you start doing 326 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.559 your story map right, if you're gonna if you're gonna have Luke use the 327 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.480 force to sell, you know, to to shoot down the desk Star. 328 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.160 There should be a scene in the middle of the movie where he realizes that 329 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.720 the force is stronger than, you know, than than just any mechanical concerns. 330 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:07.759 What if we put a helmet on him or something some oraculous happen and 331 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.039 then that'll be that And then how do we get him there? Well? 332 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.599 Okay, cool? He should be a kid who wants to I don't know, 333 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.359 he wants adventure. And how many of these movies start with, you 334 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.200 know, I want I want to live more than the provincial life, or 335 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.240 I want to you know whatever. Yeah, looking out of the window, 336 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.359 Harry Potter wanting something, you know, something better than living under the stairs 337 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:34.079 exactly, and you know, uh where Poe is looking at his his shelf 338 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:37.519 full of things going on? Oh man, it would be so awesome to 339 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:42.200 be a kung fu master o'neo looking, you know, seeing the rabbit. 340 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:48.720 You know that that that there's that call and then you say no, you 341 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.440 know because again just whatever, jump on the thing. You have to say 342 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.559 no to that call. And then you go through, like I say, 343 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.480 the story math. What's going to get him into the second act? How 344 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.519 is he locked in? Well, Luke, you're going to burn down his 345 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.799 family. His family's anything keeping him in this world, his uncle who says, 346 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:07.680 no, you're gonna sit here, you know, drink green milk and 347 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:14.920 be a good boy. And and so you burn that down because Luke's first 348 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:21.680 intention is just to is just to get the old man to the bar and 349 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.119 be done with you know, look, I'll get to that far, but 350 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:29.160 you know, you're all this other stuff is crazy talk and h and by 351 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.759 the time he gets to the bar, he's kind of in it. And 352 00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:34.480 and then off they go. I'm the adventure or whatever, you know, 353 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:41.240 And the first part of the adventure is is impossible because the planet has been 354 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.359 destroyed. And then you're just going getting him deeper and deeper into it. 355 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.960 All you're doing is looking at that endpoint, like when is he completely bought 356 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.960 it? When is he going to sacrifice his life, take on this his 357 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.440 role as you know, jetmaster and whatever and embrace the ways of the fourth 358 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.240 Yeah, of course that's the whole thing. And you're gonna make it difficult 359 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.880 for him all along the way. You're going to build up the opposition as 360 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:14.039 much as you can. So going back to the brain trust, those are 361 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:18.759 the elements you're looking at it and you're saying, Okay, you're telling this 362 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.960 type of story. And a lot of times it's a straight up film theory. 363 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.680 I don't know if you're a film student or whatever, but all you 364 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:30.720 do in film school it is wonderful is you watch a ton of movie and 365 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:33.759 watching old musicals, You're watching whatever. You know. For me, when 366 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.880 I start a movie, I'll go, you know, I'm gonna watch every 367 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.359 spaghetti western that ever was boom, you know, and I'll just I'll just 368 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:44.599 go through my Netflix quew is just you know, just budding with stuff. 369 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:49.319 I'm gonna watch every kung fu movie, every crazy kung fu movie that I 370 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:55.000 can find, and I'll just go through every single everything, single weird one. 371 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.599 I'll do all of my research. I'll just kind of become in bett, 372 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:02.000 you know, just completely embedded in this stuff. Let it seep into 373 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.519 my DNA, and then I really and then I'll see the matrix. I'll 374 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:07.920 see, Okay, this is how these types of stories are told. If 375 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:12.000 I can stay on this path, I think I'll be fine. And I 376 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:21.000 think also I'll be satisfying the audience that that enjoys this type of movie. 377 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:27.319 So yeah, and then off I go. Then I know, like I'm 378 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:33.160 working on a project right now, there's the airport for yeah, a studio, 379 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.640 I'll say studio. Yeah, but it's you know, completely mainstream. 380 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:45.000 But it's one of the things I said was was the audience has seen a 381 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:52.680 ton of movies like this and and the uh it's in the category of the 382 00:26:53.559 --> 00:27:00.880 of like Maze Runner and Insurgent and those kind of things, and the audience 383 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:06.400 of that of that genre is often like they're really super skeptical, you know, 384 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.519 if you if you show them like what is it? There's a ton 385 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.599 of these kind of Percy and those things. You know, there are a 386 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.799 bunch of these movies that come out and the audience has never absorbed, you 387 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:19.759 know, just never takes them in. And then you're done. And so 388 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:22.319 there are things that you need to do. There are tropes that they want 389 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.559 to see, but they don't want to see the same tropes as they've seen 390 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.119 in the other movies. So you have to mess with them and mess with 391 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:32.720 them in a very clever way. So that it said an very early signal 392 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.440 that Okay, this is cool, you know, forget your popcorn, lean 393 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:41.000 in and enjoy the movie. Yeah, that's the plussing. That's the extra 394 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:47.319 extra extra right, and hopefully, like a bad room would be a room 395 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:51.559 full of people who don't all like making the same kind of movies. You 396 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:55.640 know, they're going to pull you in every direction. Good. You know, 397 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.359 you go into Marvel and all those guys have read every single comic book, 398 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.880 throw off a reference. They will all go, oh, yeah, 399 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:08.160 and this, and then you could do this, and then the room just 400 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.359 explodes with everything, you know, all the minutia. Everybody will go, 401 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.160 you know what's great about that issue? Was this and this and this happened. 402 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.799 No, here's what I think. I think this is what made it 403 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.000 great. But this, you know, this episode and this, this issue 404 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.400 and this issue didn't do well because of this, and everybody will have their 405 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.839 theory and great, if you can move towards this and away from that, 406 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:36.319 you'll be fine. And that's generally what happens in those brain trust meetums is 407 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:41.480 it's a yes and kind of table. That is that is literally the same 408 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:48.839 principles of improv yes exactly. The whole teaching is an actor will give you 409 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.720 something and the other actor has to say yes and yes. Literally, that's 410 00:28:53.839 --> 00:29:00.640 what it is. Act I act up here in Portland, so you know, 411 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.960 just for my acting friends and stuff like that. So it's one of 412 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.200 those things that's funny that you brought that up. Yeah, do more of 413 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:11.920 that because it becomes for me. Yeah. I did a lot of improv 414 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.559 in college, and I did some instand up as well, and improv. 415 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:22.680 Yeah, after and even in my stand up I would leave. I'd always 416 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:27.279 i'd consider it in quarters, right, I would do my introductions and kind 417 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.960 of get everybody into like, this is who I am, this is where 418 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.559 my comedy is going to come from, guys, so get you to it. 419 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.200 Yeah, exactly ten jokes in this area, and then I would kind 420 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:41.599 of like, Okay, now that we're friends, now that we know each 421 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.119 other, here we go. You know, we're gonna go and go into 422 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.200 this. And then third quarter I would just kind of kick back and I'd 423 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.839 say, hey, let's talk about something, and I would just riff and 424 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.759 and you know, I would just I would ask the audience a question or 425 00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.160 else, you know, or whatever, and I would just go on whatever 426 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:03.839 I was given. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 427 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:12.039 and now back to the show. Just lean into it and fly and then 428 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.559 i'd of course wrap it up with some you know, some stuff that was 429 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.079 money night and you know whatever, drop the mic and take off. But 430 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:25.119 that that and and frankly, it's also the same kind of thing that happens 431 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:27.079 in a TV room, like you had mentioned before, you know, in 432 00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:34.000 sitcom rooms, that's exactly what happens, because literally you cannot afford in a 433 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:37.920 sitcom room for somebody to go yeah, I don't know, you know. 434 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.599 So when I was running tables, I would always say buy it or beat 435 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:47.759 it, you know, being okay, there's an idea on the table that 436 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:52.440 I believe to be very good. If you think of a better idea, 437 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.079 pitch it now. Otherwise we're going to build off of the idea we have, 438 00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.559 but we're not going to spend an hour and a half just kind of 439 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.839 shooting, you know, just telling everybody why it's a bad idea. So 440 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.920 so it winds up being really really great. So that's exactly what you find 441 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.400 in the pis room. Somebody will say, well what if? You know, 442 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.799 that's the first thing. What if? And anytime anybody says what if 443 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:18.319 and whatever, the room gets really quiet. Even if you have even if 444 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:21.400 you have your own what if you're like, okay, great, I'm just 445 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.400 gonna get in line. Yeah, what if we turn the whole thing upside 446 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.799 down and this happens, and then this happens, and instead of everybody going 447 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:34.240 oh, shut up, you go, okay, if that happens, then 448 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:40.599 this would also happen, and this and this, and then this would happen 449 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.720 and this and this. All the energy winds up around that that idea. 450 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:47.680 Boom boom boom, and you're just building a mountain off this idea, and 451 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:48.880 hey, you know what's a great sequence with that? You can do this 452 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.000 and this and this, and then somebody else will say, hey, and 453 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.319 that will fix this scene because you can do this instead, and they'll start 454 00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:57.640 pitching the dialogue and everybody were cracking out the jokes and all that. And 455 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.240 then sometimes you get to the top of that of that mountain and you go, 456 00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:08.200 I don't know, built this whole thing, and you say it's good, 457 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:12.880 but it's not necessarily better than what we had before, or it's good, 458 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.279 but it's a whole other movie or whatever, and then it gets quiet 459 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:21.079 and everybody digests what we had, and then the next person says, well 460 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.319 what about this? Boom? And then you start, you build again, 461 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:29.160 same energy and everything. Everybody gets into everything. There is no there is 462 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:32.359 some negative and because some people will say, ah, you know, we 463 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:36.480 tried that and blah blah blah blah blah. But if you were going to 464 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.880 make it work, here's what you would do. I say. So everybody 465 00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:45.559 is looking at it in terms of they're making the movie and that you get 466 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.319 too, which is you know, uh, which I think is wonderful because 467 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.720 Brad Bird is going to have a different idea in his head and Pete Doctor, 468 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.519 Yeah, and Pete Doctor is going to have a different one than than 469 00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:00.039 Mark, you know, than than even even John. And John's gonna have 470 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:05.240 you you know whatever, and everybody's gonna it's an orchestra, right. So 471 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:09.799 John is, John's got a big heart at John's or whatever, and he's 472 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:14.440 he's a big kids who he's gonna love the you know, a big block 473 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:19.640 scene. Uh, Andrew is looking to make sure it's you know, you're 474 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.200 checking the boxes. Uh, Pete's got you know, Pete's got his take. 475 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.559 You know, Brad's a cowboy, you know, he he's he's doing 476 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.039 his thing. And uh and in that symphony, you have like, Okay, 477 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:39.279 great this is this wonderful set of ideas. Even what is it? 478 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:44.440 Michael, Arn't you know who wrote to you know, a little sunshine? 479 00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:49.279 He comes in and he I love the way he thinks because he thinks a 480 00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:52.319 lot like me. I'm a I'm a structured guy. Uh. You know 481 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.000 when when I when I started doing sitcoms, there were two rooms, were 482 00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.880 three rooms. There was there was the room of guys who would think about 483 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.079 the stories. There was story guys, you know, who would who would 484 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.720 as you were breaking the story, they would sit down and say, well, 485 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:08.639 it should be this and then this and then this, you know, 486 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:13.639 and just plot out the plot out the story, knowing where the jokes were 487 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.039 going to come. And then we would invite a larger group in and then 488 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.719 those would be the joke guys would come in and say oh yeah, and 489 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.000 then this and this. You know, they would have great dialogue. And 490 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:25.599 I saw very early, you know, they were like, well, which 491 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.000 room do you want to be? And I was like, I want to 492 00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.079 be in the room with the exect producer, you know, And that's the 493 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.079 story room that those guys seem to be. Those guys are working all the 494 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.519 time, and those guys anytime stuff was wrong, they would kick the joke 495 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.800 guys out of the room, and a very small group of story guys would 496 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.360 work would work through it. And story guys where the guys who would hold 497 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:51.639 the pencil, meaning they would make the last decision. They would write down 498 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:57.440 whatever the choice was. And and so I like that a lot. And 499 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:02.360 even now as I'm working in chers and stuff, it's always the story guys 500 00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:07.159 who are kind of called in when things are really wrong. They'll say, 501 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.519 okay, please help us, you know what's wrong with it, and you 502 00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:15.000 go in with your toolbox, unmotivated character. The third act moment doesn't work, 503 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:20.280 Let's build back from that. What are the values that we're doing here 504 00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.760 and go through And before I go to the I just want to kind of 505 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:29.400 recap sure, like make sure I'm I'm grabbing the essence of everything you're talking 506 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.239 about. There's it sounds like there's a little bit of a I think your 507 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.119 cable might be hitting I think it's hitting my shirt. So okay, yeah, 508 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:39.639 you get you get a little story just you and I. Yeah, 509 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:42.639 they go, okay, good, is it going clean? Clan clean? 510 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:45.480 Yeah? Yeah, yeah, man, is that's not too bad? It's 511 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:49.400 but I just it's such great information you have and it's just you and I 512 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:53.320 on the video, so it's all good. Look like a prison shirt or 513 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.840 hopefully that's perfect. So the well we can what I can gather from here 514 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:07.440 is I like this concept of one make sure that the room that you create, 515 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:09.039 the group that you create, if you're going to create your own brain 516 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:14.800 trust group, you know, if you're writing a horror genre, you know, 517 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:20.159 make sure you have people that like it, that helps have studied up 518 00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:22.960 on it. Yeah, exactly, that know that know the genre that no 519 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.800 the tropes that have a passion for it, that that can gel with you 520 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:30.280 as well as I like this idea that you start from the b end what 521 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.599 is that one thing or just have that conversation, like what is the one 522 00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.960 thing you want on this film? The story? Is it the moment? 523 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.760 What does that magic moment, that third act moment that makes it the payoff 524 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.440 all worth it? And then reverse engineer go back from the beginning and work 525 00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:47.079 towards that. I like all that. I love this that little note you 526 00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:51.440 gave about the second act the midpoint of like, if the payoff and the 527 00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:55.719 third act, then that magic movie moment is it works? You have to 528 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:59.320 give us a little taste of in the midpoint, which is great, you 529 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.320 know, and it totally makes sense. But then obviously the people that you 530 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.960 put together have to know, you know, their story structure or you know 531 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.599 that they're just their film geeks or other filmmakers themselves that are have an opportunity 532 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:17.360 to contribute to the storytelling process where you know, we all seem to do 533 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.679 it. Anyway, after we watch a movie, we're like, why didn't 534 00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:22.199 not work? You know, like I think my wife, My wife and 535 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:29.119 I just rewatched the remake of Poltergeist last night and were huge fans of the 536 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.519 first one. I mean watched that many times over and seeing what happened, 537 00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:37.320 you know, our own analysis of taking away. And it's interesting the conversation 538 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.000 you have just saying why why didn't it work? Because you're trying to figure 539 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.320 out like what's gut wise, what's what's what's something's off? Whyden? Is 540 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.800 it not working for us? And I think it was. I think it 541 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:51.599 was like it took an hour, like originally a two hour movie into an 542 00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:53.599 hour and a half, and it was like go time from the beginning, 543 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.360 like there was no one. It was just like bang bang bang, there 544 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.880 was no time to catch your breath, and it it definitely felt rushed than 545 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:07.639 all the wonderful cinematic you know, vision visions of the stuff. But it 546 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.079 was there's some soul aspect missing. I think. See that's the thing. 547 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.280 Because that and because I was going to ask you, okay, what what 548 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:19.079 what did you think was was was missing? So in what part of the 549 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.880 movie do you think it was missing from? If you if your conclusion was 550 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.400 that it was soulless, and we and we're in the brain Trust meeting right 551 00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:30.679 now, so yea, yeah, yeah, this conclusion was that Polter Guys 552 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:32.360 was souless? Where how do you fix that? Where? What? What? 553 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.679 What had they taken out? Because you have in this case, it's 554 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:39.440 empirical, right, you have a movie that works and a movie does not 555 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:43.920 that does not work. That are the exact that are supposed to be the 556 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 exact same movie, right, so you can kind of look at them side 557 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:51.000 by side, you know. And I'm notorious for this. I'll get iTunes 558 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:53.920 and I'll just i will watch five minutes of one movie, five minutes of 559 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:58.519 another movie, the next five minutes of the next, and I'll just I'll 560 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:04.199 completely go go through because a lot of movies will have If you watch Point 561 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:07.760 Break and Fast and Furious, they're the exact same movie, right, and 562 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:15.440 they will tell you they're the exact same movie, and uh, every you 563 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.559 know, in every way you know, and and so the question is, 564 00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.159 okay, great, will those two work now? Now this one? Okay 565 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:27.800 great? So so we're back to it's soulless. That's our problem. Where 566 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:34.559 did that come from? Definitely? I think from watching the remake and being 567 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.400 a fan, like you said, being so well versed in the first one 568 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.559 and seeing it many times over. You know all the nuances, you know 569 00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:44.880 all the scenes, but mostly from the from it was there's a sense of 570 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:51.119 wonderment and awe and sort of respect for this, this deeper conversation about the 571 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:57.360 paranormal that was existed in the first one. We'll be right back after a 572 00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:06.920 word from our sponsor, and now back to the show again. We're talking 573 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:13.880 about somebody remaking Spielberg exactly. Yeah, but Spielberg's got a bag of tricks 574 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.840 that is very interesting. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look 575 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:25.199 at man. I just had this conversation with Spielberg himself. Well, his 576 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:28.760 daughter went to school with my son. So it was okay, it's kind 577 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:31.960 of fun. You know. We got and and his and his other son 578 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:37.599 too, karate class with my older son. So wow, okay, so 579 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.920 it's just all this cross ower. But but we never like, hey, 580 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:44.440 tell me about Jaws or whatever. But I did get a chance to meet 581 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.840 the writer of Jaws, I said, Jenner with him a couple of months 582 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:52.239 ago, and and we were talking just about those things of Manucia, of 583 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:57.320 all of that stuff. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look 584 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.920 at when I'm analyzing a filmmaker, the first couple of films, the first 585 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.239 two films. I may have mentioned this failure, but that that that I 586 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:08.639 always look at them when they're in their infancy, when they're trying to put 587 00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:12.400 together their bag of tricks, and then I try to find what is their 588 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:16.199 worst film. And for Spielberg, it's nineteen forty one right there. And 589 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:22.480 in nineteen forty one he is doing he's showing his bag of tricks, but 590 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:27.599 he's doing everything wrong. And you can tell like, oh, this is 591 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.840 what he what he does great, everything that he does great in the in 592 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:35.960 the first couple of movies, he does really poorly. Here and everything that 593 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.760 he did great like an Et. And this gets to the answer of what 594 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:45.239 I was digging at with the two Poulter guys is that it's the first act. 595 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:50.000 It's a first act problem that that you when you buy into something emotionally, 596 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.159 it's if you don't feel it emotionally, it's because when we met those 597 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:57.039 people, we didn't care about them exactly. You know, if it's a 598 00:41:57.159 --> 00:41:59.760 roller coaster ride, if if they're thinking, well, the best thing about 599 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:02.800 we told you guys is the little girl gets sucked into the TV and whatever, 600 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:06.559 there's a closet and all that stuff like that is not the best thing. 601 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.280 It's about this family. It's about this guy who is who is you 602 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.679 know, has moved his family into this into this new environment. He's worried 603 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:21.760 that there is something wrong with the area. There's this drumbeat of weird things 604 00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:25.800 that have been happening around the area, and you're filling in the character. 605 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.760 It's like it's like Jaws, It's like Et. It's everything. The conversation 606 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:38.000 that they have at at breakfast in ET before ET shows up is the most 607 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:44.039 important conversation you have. Yeah, I remember in Princess and the Frog, 608 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:49.679 there was this whole thing of we were just we're trying to get them into 609 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:53.320 the body as quickly as possible. And the note we kept getting back in 610 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.639 the brain trust, because that's the other part of the brain trust, right, 611 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.360 is you screen the movie. You're showing the movie to a lot of 612 00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:02.880 people, and they're giving you notes back. Everybody in the building, everybody 613 00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:07.519 at Disney, everybody a Pixar. You get reams of notes. Uh, 614 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:10.239 I didn't think, you know, this is a problem, this is a 615 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:15.280 problem. This is a problem. And then they put the notes into sections, 616 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.719 so someone's about you know, the main character, or something about you 617 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:22.239 know, the story itself. And then we were getting all these notes. 618 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:25.559 I you know, the story seems funny. I just don't care. I 619 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:29.519 don't care about the journey. Yeah, And I said, well that's the 620 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:34.440 first act problem. Same thing. And you didn't care because she wanted to 621 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:37.599 have a restaurant, but you didn't care why she wanted to have a restaurant. 622 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.880 So I said, well, hey, I saw this drawing of a 623 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:44.599 dad. I love this story. Yeah, yeah, this keep going on. 624 00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:47.519 This is a great done. I don't want there was a dad picture 625 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.800 of drawing of a dad and Basically, they were trying to figure out what 626 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.039 the mom looked like. So they had drawn a dad just to figure out, 627 00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:57.639 you know, what were the features that that Tiana had gotten from both 628 00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:00.039 of her parents, and then that would be the mom. And there was 629 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.840 this a drawing and I asked the character designer, what you know, what 630 00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.239 is this like? Oh, we explained it, and I said, well 631 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.400 this is Can I borrow this? And I took it back into the room. 632 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.679 I said, this guy is the most important person in the movie because 633 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:20.320 daughters, that relationship between daughters and fathers, and we've been looking driving so 634 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:24.800 hard to have a person to have an emotional reason why she wants to have 635 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:29.519 this restaurant. Why not? Why can't it be the daughter the dream of 636 00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.760 a daughter and her father, and and that the legacy of that once the 637 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:42.239 father passes away, she wants to continue that dream. And then there is 638 00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:49.760 no way the thing can't have emotion. It's a woman holding you know, 639 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.199 it's it's what they did in up right the house at a certain point becomes 640 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.719 you know that Karl is trying to continue the dream that he had with his 641 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:04.360 with his wife. That's that's the And I could mention probably fifty other movies 642 00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:07.599 that are fueled with that kind of emotion. There is a reason why we 643 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:12.039 tell stories in that way. And so once that happened, it was a 644 00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.159 tiny adjustment. It was about three pages and in the beginning of the movie, 645 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.880 and everybody said, wow, what did you do? Did you rewrite 646 00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.800 the entire movie? Like, no, we just gave every time, you 647 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:27.719 know, she says the word restaurant, you know what it means. And 648 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.199 I had to hit it. I think in the middle, at the midpoint, 649 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.960 when they're right before they dance, and then at the end when they're 650 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.639 on the riverboat and they're looking looking out at the restaurant itself, and it's 651 00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:44.400 what gets Navine to back off. He wants to proposed to her, and 652 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.400 it has such huge emotional weight that it's like, Okay, great, my 653 00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:50.440 job here, My job here has done the mechanics. The rest of the 654 00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:55.119 mechanics of the storytelling were I don't want to say inconsequential, but they were 655 00:45:55.239 --> 00:46:00.880 less consequential because we had launched the story correctly. You watch a movie like 656 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:05.199 Man on Fire, they spent a ton of time. I don't think anybody 657 00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:07.840 dies until the midpoint of that movie. Yeah. The whole movie is about 658 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:15.039 this broken guy's love for this little girl and how this girl redeems has his 659 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:21.000 soul and makes him, stops him from committing suicide. Yeah, you know, 660 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:23.519 the bullet doesn't go off. There is something, you know, the 661 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:28.599 god of the story has a larger plan for this guy, and it's about 662 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.280 this. It's about this relationship with this little girl. And you know, 663 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:37.440 he starts coaching her about you know, don't be afraid of the gun and 664 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.760 all that, and and they have this wonderful, wonderful relationship. So at 665 00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:46.039 the point when she's kidnapped, you're like, oh no, yeah, go 666 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:52.800 down, because now this guy has license. You know, he is he 667 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:55.199 is fired up. And if you look at I'm sorry when I say last 668 00:46:55.239 --> 00:47:00.400 example, but if you look at Taken, Taken follows the exact same model. 669 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:05.559 That girl doesn't get kidnapped. Chill deep into that movie yet heartbreak, 670 00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.280 heartbreak, the pony versus the you know, karaoke machine, all of those 671 00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:13.519 scenes. If you're looking at it from an executive standpoint, you'll think, 672 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:15.679 oh god, you know the movie is really about it. It's a shoot 673 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:20.960 them up, and why is it taking sixty minutes before the guy fire is 674 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.599 the first shot. You know, well, like, can't we just condense 675 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:29.639 this and you have to as a writer, as an artist, say no, 676 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:36.320 people don't watch buildings burn. They watch people saving the people they love 677 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:40.199 that are in the building that is on fire. You know that that's drama. 678 00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:44.519 Yeah, it's interesting. You know you brought that up. It got 679 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:46.760 me excited because you were saying, like how important to set up, how 680 00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:51.039 portant the first act is. And if you look at some movies back in 681 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:54.280 the in the seventies, like even Exorcist, literally I think the first hour 682 00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:00.000 like nothing major paranormal like happens. I mean, the priest doesn't show up 683 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.800 up until after the hour mark, like like all this stuff I remember about 684 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.440 the Exorcist doesn't happen until like almost after the midpoint. You know. It's 685 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:13.199 like, yeah, because the even like Rosemary's the Baby, same thing, 686 00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:19.679 uh, Gary Shining, Like yeah, exactly, Shining. You're just watching 687 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:24.719 girls and bikes and yeah, yeah, it's just and and there are a 688 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:29.000 little creepy things that happened. There's always got you know, a cat dropped 689 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:34.320 out of the box. Uh. I was watching Alien, same thing. 690 00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:42.599 It's just the day to day workings of of space uh, space teamsters. 691 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:47.800 And then and then midpoint the thing leaps out of the guy's chest and you're 692 00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:52.480 it's off, off and running exactly what we've been setting up before. That 693 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:58.440 is nobody listens to Ripley. You know, these guys are are in it 694 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:02.760 for a paycheck. You froze up, do you see me? Good? 695 00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.639 Yeah? Okay, sorry? Yeah that that that nobody listens to her, 696 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:09.800 that that you know, these guys are are in it for a paycheck, 697 00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:15.880 and that something is wrong with the science officer, you know, and there's 698 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:20.800 all these kind of your you're just setting up the dynamics, uh, and 699 00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:23.199 it's getting your heart is kind of in your chest. You know that something's 700 00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:28.039 got to happen. Yeah. Uh. And then when it does, it's 701 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.079 just like bam bam, bam bam bam. And then you're left the best 702 00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:36.199 thing about looking at the third act versus it it's the thing, it's the 703 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.840 thing that you are. You know, the lights go up, you walk 704 00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:45.440 to your car and you go, man, that was awesome. And that's 705 00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:52.199 the thing. You know, If that third act moment works, then it's 706 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.480 all worth it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter what you did 707 00:49:54.559 --> 00:50:00.360 up until that point. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 708 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:09.440 and now back to the show. Nobody's gonna you know, the the 709 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:13.280 audience coming out of the seven o'clock show. I talk about this all the 710 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.320 time because it's what it's what makes movies great. It's what makes the business 711 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:22.159 of making a movie, even if it's an independent film. It's the audience 712 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:27.840 coming out of the seven o'clock show, their reaction as you're in line for 713 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:31.079 the nine o'clock show, and everybody knows that thing of like people who are 714 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:37.199 going oh, snap, yeah, yeah, and they're like crying or they're 715 00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:42.480 like high fiving or stuff, and they're they're nodding at you because they know, 716 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:45.119 like, oh, this is gonna be you know, you are in 717 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.280 for a treat. This is gonna be magnificent and uh. And it's that 718 00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:52.440 thing that's what makes movies great. That's what makes movie going great, you 719 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:59.119 know, and everything you know, Yeah, go ahead, now we can 720 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.280 say it's fascinating. We were talking about the long setup and then we gave 721 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:05.599 some examples, but you did mention even like the movie up and I think 722 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:09.480 it's one of the greatest examples of the shortest most heartbreaking setups ever. You 723 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:15.039 know, it's within You're in tears within the first whatever five minutes of that 724 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.519 story of Carl. You know, it's beautiful, and they're just it's just 725 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.639 building up, you know, remember, they're building up for the moment when 726 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:29.400 he ditches the house to save the boy, you know, and and so 727 00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:32.280 and that's the whole you know that John, you know, was who walked 728 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:36.880 into the room. Okay, what happens. He crashes the house, He 729 00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:39.239 throws all the stuff out, you know, to give it ballaced. He's 730 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:44.000 run out of balloons, and you know, uh, and he goes and 731 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:50.159 saves the boy. And uh, that's that's his Luke Skywalker moment, right 732 00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:53.039 right. And so so in the beginning, you want to say, well, 733 00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:58.519 if the house doesn't mean anything, right again, story math, If 734 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.119 the house doesn't mean anything, moment's not going to mean anything. Everybody's going 735 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.199 to go so what it's a house, Yeah, you know, get another 736 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:07.159 house, like no, no, no, this house is very special because 737 00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:13.719 it is the embodiment of you know, his relationship with his with his wife. 738 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:19.639 Yeah, yeah, exactly, ely and and I believe it at various 739 00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:24.559 times he calls the house Ellie, and it's the he's working towards the picture 740 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:30.159 of the house on the on the mountain. Yeah, and so you're going 741 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.800 to give him that, and then you're gonna take it away. You know, 742 00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:37.079 he's gonna get all the way there, realize it's it's not worth what 743 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:39.000 he thought it would be worth. And then he's gonna go save the boy. 744 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:49.119 Great, so you need and I forget who There is a one the 745 00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:55.000 co director of of Inside Out, Ronnie del Carman, I want to say, 746 00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:59.880 Okay, he I believe that was his sequence and that put him on 747 00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:01.760 the map as a star, or you know he's been on the map as 748 00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:07.039 a star anyway, because he's fantastic artists. But he was the guy who 749 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:12.199 who walked through that sequence and said it's stripped it of its dialogue. He 750 00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:15.360 had temporary music that was that was wonderful for it. This this kind of 751 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:22.400 very you know, ballad kind of thing, and it was amazing, you 752 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.519 know, just a process of how that sequence came. It came to be 753 00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:32.960 because you know, obviously the first twenty drafts of that sequence were not that 754 00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:37.239 sequence. Yeah, you really had to kind of work on it, work 755 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:42.559 on it work on it, and so it just wasn't it. It would 756 00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:45.360 make you cry. And I believe it's five minutes and thirty seconds long. 757 00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:52.639 It is not very long in in in pure movie movie terms, but by 758 00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:55.639 the end of it, when you know, just that pan across the doctor's 759 00:53:55.679 --> 00:54:00.320 office, oh my god, you know, just every one of those moments 760 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:05.719 is completely iconic. It's just it's truly wonderful. And then it gives him 761 00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.360 license to do everything that he does, which is he won't sell the house, 762 00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:12.760 smashes the guy on the head when he you know, when he's when 763 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.599 he's threatened, and now he's going to you know, go live this dream 764 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:22.719 and go to uh, you know this this waterfall great, is amazing. 765 00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:28.000 I was curiously you with your thanks. We've history of like writing on your 766 00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:31.480 own, working in rooms, you know, in television and and now working 767 00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:37.920 like obviously the last few years and animation is the advent of visuals, like 768 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.880 because I don't know if you have an opportunity with the Princess and the Frog 769 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.480 to go down to New Orleans too, or you're part of the research crew 770 00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:50.880 because you know, you were mentioning like how Lasseter was such a huge proponent 771 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:53.719 of research, like just getting as orb into your DNA, like like you've 772 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.920 probably already done prior, but I was curious. You know, we have 773 00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:02.000 the TV room. We're seeing like this explosion of Golden Age of television, 774 00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:07.000 just amazing shows left and right, and I can only count like because the 775 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:12.000 power the writers there, like in writers together pushing each other to make it 776 00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:16.360 great. And then you have animation which allows you to I mean my past 777 00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:20.840 working with so many PlayStation work with visual effects, we always had to work 778 00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.039 with visuals. We always had something to draw from to try to make it, 779 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.159 you know, better, And I'm wondering, like, because now you 780 00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:30.280 have visual cues like you mentioned and Princess of the Frog, here's a drawing, 781 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:35.199 a sketch drawing about the fathers, Like that is huge for me, 782 00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:40.679 And I was wondering, have you seen I guess, like, how could 783 00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:46.519 like an independent you know, borrow from this concept of like should they just 784 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:52.280 intundate themselves with so many look frames or drawings or initial sketches anything like that 785 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.599 to like inundate themselves of what their world would look like. So if they 786 00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:00.480 brought in their own makeshift brain trust group, so everybody connect to like oh, 787 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:02.840 what's that? What's this? Or you know, how's this fin the 788 00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:07.719 story? I don't know from your any like stories you could share of like 789 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:09.679 just like you said, you're walking around, you're seeing artists or somebody. 790 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:17.000 Pretty much the film made in like visual format before even like even one written 791 00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:21.000 word is put on an actual traditional script. I guess I don't know, 792 00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:25.239 right well, that's the that's the fun of the new the new tools, 793 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:32.239 we'll call it is it's I know that Robert Rodriguez his his process is very 794 00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:37.800 similar to the Pixar process, which is interesting. He kind of pre shoots 795 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:43.400 his movies and he will just with a handheld camera or I don't know, 796 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:45.039 a cell phone or whatever. He'll get his actors in a room and he 797 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:50.440 films his rehearsals and he takes them back and I don't know if he's using 798 00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:52.840 you know whatever, you know, final problem, whatever it is. But 799 00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:57.400 you know, as easy it is as it is to edit something. He 800 00:56:57.559 --> 00:57:00.480 just edits it at home and then he goes in the next day if they're 801 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.760 shooting the next day, and he'll show it to everybody like this is this 802 00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:07.239 is what this is, and here's what I think is wrong with it, 803 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.639 here's what I did to rewrite it, and here we go. You know. 804 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:15.960 So the second thing you see will be that Woody Allen shoots an entire 805 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:22.320 movie, edits it and edits it, shows it, you know, it, 806 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:23.760 takes a look at it, and then I don't know if he gets 807 00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:29.559 outside feedback or or anything. I assume he does, and then reshoots the 808 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.920 entire movie. It's always in his budget that he will shoot it twice. 809 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:37.840 So you do it, and obviously that you know, the first version is 810 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.760 not just everybody kind of slogging through not wearing their costumes and stuff. It's 811 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:45.639 an actual movie, you know. And then he shoots it again. So 812 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:54.039 and I think that that that is a great way to go if you can't. 813 00:57:54.320 --> 00:58:00.320 Ridley Scott storyboards his own movies top to them, and I believe shoots 814 00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:06.039 the storyboards and show you know, shows shows those. So that the first 815 00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.559 draft, and the way I look at it is, you know, from 816 00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:12.400 a Disney perspective, is that when guys are drawing, right, they take 817 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:14.880 a blue pencil. It's very light, you can barely see it, and 818 00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:17.920 they just start drawing and whatever, and they're just and the lines are everywhere, 819 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:22.760 and they're it's a complete mess, and they're drawing over themselves and they're 820 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.239 doing whatever, and then they start to see it, and then they'll they'll 821 00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:30.440 they'll take out a black pencil and they'll start tagging it down and they'll you 822 00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:32.800 know, okay, great, here the eyes, here's where the eyes go, 823 00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:37.159 here's whatever, because you're kind of trying to see it on the page, 824 00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:42.159 and only a handful of people can just start drawing with a black pencil 825 00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.599 and go you're sketching, sketching, sketching until you see it. If you 826 00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:50.280 if you listen to a band right, the band will go you know, 827 00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:54.519 it'll sound terrible the first and then they'll kind of gradually, you know, 828 00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:59.119 come down to whatever they're doing. Sculpture is the same way. It's a 829 00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:02.199 blob, an amorphous blob for so long, and then they start to tack 830 00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:07.480 down little sections. And writers are the only ones who don't do that. 831 00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:10.039 Writers, I'll see them go, oh, I have an idea, you 832 00:59:10.119 --> 00:59:15.360 know, faded go in, you know, and here broke the store day, 833 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.280 and like, who does that? Nobody does that? You don't think 834 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.760 that way. You say, I want to make a movie, I think 835 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.760 it should be kind of like this movie that I loved when I was a 836 00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:30.320 kid, or it should be. I want to make the best you know, 837 00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:39.679 badass six year old whatever magical power movie that I can. Here is 838 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:45.079 a precedent of other you know, badass six year old. Here's where some 839 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:51.480 have gone right and others have gone wrong. And this is what moves me 840 00:59:51.599 --> 00:59:53.360 about this kind of movie. This is why these kinds of movies are my 841 00:59:53.400 --> 01:00:02.159 favorite movies. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and 842 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:08.679 now back to the show. And this is where others have fallen afield. 843 01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:14.519 I think my movie is somewhere in here, and and then you get out 844 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:17.159 like I'm old school. So I have like I have, you know, 845 01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:22.199 just a clipboard and a fountain pen, and I will sit down and I'll 846 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:28.800 just start writing. And it's rarely dialogue. It's just what do I love 847 01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:30.360 about these kinds of movies? I love this, I love this, I 848 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:34.800 love that. Hey, my favorite scene in one of these things was blah 849 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:38.559 blah blah blah blah, and and my least favorite scene is blah blah blah 850 01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:44.599 blah blah. Excellent. I like to eat my dessert first, so if 851 01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:47.199 I'm writing, I will say, well, here are scenes that should be 852 01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:52.519 in my movie. You know, these are great scenes. And if I 853 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:57.760 can just string a clothes line between these scenes, I think I'll be okay, 854 01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:00.960 because these are the classic scenes. There should be the mentor scene and 855 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:06.320 the and so and the equipment, you know, the badass piece of machinery 856 01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.400 you know, or the you know, the great gun or whatever it is, 857 01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:13.880 you know, a cool monster, a you know, fantastic spaceship a 858 01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:16.159 you know, always kind of I'll put those in and then I'll say, 859 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:19.960 okay, well, wait now I'm going to try to make myself crying the 860 01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:24.679 third act and go, you know, yeah, and that's yeah. But 861 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:29.679 but it's always starting from like a morphous a morphous you know, the the 862 01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:32.760 ink, you know, the paint is wet, there's no paper. I'm 863 01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:40.480 just freestyling until I find like it should be this, and then I'll start 864 01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:45.400 to give it shape and tack it down, and then only last the last 865 01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:52.840 like it's it's. I often will write the entire thing by hand, and 866 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:59.079 then after I've gone through the whole thing, then I type it into software. 867 01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:01.760 Interesting, do you know, is there a difference for you between like, 868 01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:07.360 uh, plot in character or is it the same like because I could 869 01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:13.159 see like doing an outline constructing like the logic of the world of where you 870 01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:15.599 want this moment to go for the protagonists and maybe the protagon, like you 871 01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:19.840 see like a major change that's going to have to happen for this character. 872 01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:24.360 But once you kind of maybe have like the simple idea laid out, then 873 01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:28.760 do you do you go in and start like thinking like, Okay, the 874 01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:32.400 Dad character a lot right now, my early drafts are serving exposition. Well, 875 01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:37.639 then how do I make that character more interesting? Because there was this 876 01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:44.000 whole I think you were talking about, like in Jason Buff's podcast about how 877 01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:47.639 like in Finding Emo, there was all these wonderful characters, all the supporting 878 01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:52.639 characters, even no matter how small the character is, Like each fish had 879 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:58.679 some interesting best story, one scar one like was nervous or I don't know 880 01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:02.119 it was this. It was just rich with content because our context, because 881 01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:06.280 it was so each character was so unique that way, as opposed of just 882 01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:10.360 being serving up exposition. Do you see that within those group meetings you have 883 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:15.960 or or sometimes somebody goes, I have this is the character. I don't 884 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:19.400 know what story was going to happen with them, but I don't know how 885 01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:22.039 like did you see it built by ways? Right? Right? No? 886 01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:30.280 That that that it's the interesting thing is and it's it's it's fantastic question because 887 01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:38.280 it is I think at the crux of most I'd say a good and ninety 888 01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:45.719 percent of filmmakers don't understand this one specific thing, which is that there should 889 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:50.679 be no difference between character and story. But there is a huge difference between 890 01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:55.119 character and plot. Okay, the plot is just I was in this uh 891 01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:01.280 it was a masterclass in France, in Marseille, and this there was a 892 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:04.159 guy who'd done this web these webcasts and stuff like that was you know, 893 01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:10.079 really charismatic guy, really energetic, you know, great storyteller in quotes, 894 01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:15.840 and I'd done this thing and I'll talk about it a little later because it 895 01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:20.320 remind me to tell you this thing because I think it helps all writers, 896 01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:24.960 everybody that I've done it with, with writers, it makes them a lot 897 01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:30.559 better. But this guy is telling this story and he's going on, he's 898 01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:34.440 pitching me this this movie, and he says, oh, and then an 899 01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:38.719 alien comes in and bla bla bla blah blah. He's pitching, pitching more 900 01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:41.280 and more. The Italian guy right, He was like, yeah, and 901 01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:44.679 then this happens, and then and then they fall into an abyss and then 902 01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:47.920 a guy has a gun and whatever and he shoots his grandma and whatever. 903 01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:53.559 And he's just going through, going through and going through, and I'm watching 904 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:55.880 the audience and I and I stopped him for a second. I say, 905 01:04:55.960 --> 01:04:59.079 watched the audience as you're as you're doing this, keep going, And he's 906 01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:03.119 what and then this happened. There was a big explosion and whatever. And 907 01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:05.559 I said, I said, what what what do you think I saw? 908 01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:12.559 Uh, after about two minutes, everybody started talking to each other. He 909 01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:15.079 just tuned him out. There were a couple of his friends in the back 910 01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:18.760 that were kind of smiling. Really towards the end, everybody was just everybody 911 01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:25.760 was just hiding from the thing because he was. Because it was it was 912 01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:29.760 mostly sorry, I mean to do something to the screens. Have I have 913 01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:35.880 flux? And I didn't realize that it's been it's been kind of making the 914 01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:44.719 image of more sleepy as we But yeah, so I said, look at 915 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:46.719 the audience, and the audience has just completely tuned him out. I said, 916 01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:51.400 why as well. Uh, he couldn't figure it out. I said, 917 01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:55.960 well, because you lost your character. First, you didn't make me 918 01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:59.920 care about your character. And second, as it's going on, you were 919 01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:04.239 just it's just getting more and more. You were using plot to try to 920 01:06:04.360 --> 01:06:08.840 save you from character. And I said, okay, And I pitched his 921 01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:13.199 own his story the same way, and I pitched it all character. Yeah, 922 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:15.360 this guy comes in and more than anything else in the world, he 923 01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:24.000 wants this. Oh but you know this guy also wants it and blah blah 924 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.519 blah, and he wants it even more so at the very beginning, the 925 01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:29.239 guy boom whatever, he takes it from him, and now he's sitting there 926 01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:31.840 going, oh, no, what am I gonna do? Now? Aliens 927 01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:35.280 attack and blah blah blah and whatever. And everybody's leaning in as I'm as 928 01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.400 I'm telling the story because you care. You know, you give a crap 929 01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:43.599 about the story. Before he was doing plot, what I was doing was 930 01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:47.599 character. And you know, if it's if it's finding Nemo, every character 931 01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:55.360 that Marlin passes should develop him as a character. You're going from the journey 932 01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:58.199 of a guy who's overly cautious to a guy who's going to let his kid 933 01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:03.719 do this thing. In The Incredibles, everything that passes Bob pars. You 934 01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:08.119 know, we set him up as a guy who will save everybody at any 935 01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:11.320 time, you know, whatever you're doing. The whole thing, everybody that 936 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:16.280 he passes, every experience that he has, is is basically kind of to 937 01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:23.079 show that his addiction has gotten out of control, you know, and until 938 01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:26.239 he even finds an enabler in the nail. Oh great, Actually, I'm 939 01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:29.800 gonna go off and do this thing, and I'm just going to completely ignore 940 01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:31.679 my family, right because those are the two values that are at stake. 941 01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:36.360 It's it's do you are you going to reclaim your your your glory at the 942 01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:42.039 expense of the thing that you that that you know, your future, you 943 01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:44.960 know your family. You were once this guy, now you're this guy. 944 01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:48.960 You need to be more than mister incredible, she says pointedly, you know, 945 01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:54.760 thematically in order to do it. So every single scene is going to 946 01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:58.760 be him deperately clinging to his former life. He's in the meeting with his 947 01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:01.239 boss and he's looking out side and he can't can you know, And he's 948 01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:05.079 just seeing a guy getting his pocket picked and he can't give it up. 949 01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:09.920 You know. He's he's there with the old lady, and the old lady 950 01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:13.559 is worried that she's going to lose her thing, and he can't you know 951 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:16.720 that that his his new life. He just won't do it. Everything, 952 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:21.840 everything he's doing is kind of these things butter butterressing it but against each other. 953 01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:28.119 That's the nature of storytelling. That is character. You're developing that character 954 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:33.199 to the point where the character has to make this decision of like, you 955 01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:39.079 know, I can either go and try to save the you know, save 956 01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:43.680 the city by myself, which I know I cannot do, or I can 957 01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:46.079 trust my family to help me. I can do this as a family, 958 01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:51.039 and off you go. Yeah, you know that. That's that that in 959 01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:57.880 that way, as you're telling the story, it's very clear what's muscle and 960 01:08:57.960 --> 01:09:01.840 what's bone. You know that that or what's wheat and what's chap right that 961 01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:13.199 that any scene that doesn't have him moving towards either on the upside where he's 962 01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:17.279 he is completely like, yes, regaining your former glory is the most awesome 963 01:09:17.319 --> 01:09:20.359 thing in the world you can do. That's the bill to the midpoint, 964 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:26.439 and he's and then at the midpoint, ha ha, I've killed all these 965 01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:28.680 people and now I'm going to kill you, and he can't get out of 966 01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:30.399 and whatever. Now I can't get out of the room, and he's you 967 01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:35.439 know those those little yeah whatever wind whatever, and now, oh no, 968 01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:40.319 this is where it's gotten you to the you know, to the terrible, 969 01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:45.640 terrible midpoint. And then it's the family is going to go rescue him, 970 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:48.319 right, So now you're on the downslope, and so everything that happened from 971 01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:55.560 that point on is look how cool this family is when the family is unrestrained. 972 01:09:57.279 --> 01:10:03.159 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back 973 01:10:03.199 --> 01:10:10.880 to the show. Yeah, until you get to this point where it's he's 974 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:13.760 bemoaning the fact that, you know, it's almost a false act too. 975 01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:18.479 Right, the rocket is headed towards the city and Bob is sitting there saying, 976 01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:21.760 oh, I can't believe what I've done, you know, do guys 977 01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:25.560 this is really terrible. And his daughter he says, yeah, yeah, 978 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:28.000 blah blah blah, daddy, you know whatever, And she saved them ball 979 01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:32.159 very easily because he's not thinking about family. He's thinking about himself. Right. 980 01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:35.920 So we're driving, driving, driving for that moment, and that's all 981 01:10:36.079 --> 01:10:42.479 character. You know, every scene in that is a scene that you absolutely 982 01:10:42.600 --> 01:10:47.560 need and none of it is, but none of it should feel like plot. 983 01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:53.000 Yeah, it is all to drive the guy towards making that decision. 984 01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:59.199 It's really interesting because we started our conversation about talking about mastermind groups or accountability 985 01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:02.760 groups, and like how it's so much easier to look at somebody else's problem 986 01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:08.600 or look at what they stand for because we can see from an outside perspective 987 01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:12.960 what's in front of them. But we as individuals are so wrapped up in 988 01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:15.039 our own stuff. We can't, like you mentioned, we can't see our 989 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:18.399 own get out of our own way. It's all. And we were talking 990 01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:24.199 about there's so much things that we have to unlearn to be able to be 991 01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:30.920 and then we're here we are talking you know, character and story and all 992 01:11:30.960 --> 01:11:35.000 these characters or especially with the Pixar stories we were talking about, and and 993 01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:40.960 you know the stories we were mentioning. There's there's this aspect of baggage or 994 01:11:41.039 --> 01:11:45.199 that there's these known beliefs that they hold on too for so long. But 995 01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:48.640 that third act moment, that John Laster moment he's talking about, has to 996 01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:53.840 be this let go of all that in order to have that transformation at the 997 01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.640 end. But it's funny because we were talking, we started talking about it 998 01:11:57.680 --> 01:12:00.960 in real life and we're seeing it happen in story's It's like, oh wow, 999 01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:03.720 that's that's fascinating and and and really that's why I think, that is 1000 01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:10.720 why I like to look at well screenwriting everybody, you know, it's the 1001 01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:15.039 technology of screenwriting. But really we're storytellers, right, guys in rocking chairs, 1002 01:12:15.560 --> 01:12:19.079 you know, saying hey, is this is what's important. And that's 1003 01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:24.920 why is because we always we make the same mistakes, you know, all 1004 01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:28.399 the time, as human animals, as machines, whatever that we are, 1005 01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:33.079 that we we make the same mistakes all the time, and so we tell 1006 01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:39.520 ourselves these stories like let go you know of that and embrace the new. 1007 01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:44.159 One of the things I'll say, like in masterclasses all the time is you 1008 01:12:44.239 --> 01:12:48.199 can learn how to speak French without learning, without forgetting how to speak English. 1009 01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:51.840 You know, you can accept a new philosophy, a new way of 1010 01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:56.479 thinking. Just try it out and then if you want, you can go 1011 01:12:56.560 --> 01:12:59.279 back to what it is is you do. But a lot of people will 1012 01:12:59.319 --> 01:13:00.159 say like, well, in a minute, I don't like, you know, 1013 01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:03.159 I'm not such a big fan of Disney movies, and you guys are 1014 01:13:03.279 --> 01:13:08.039 you know you guys, it's all a factory and blah blah blah, and 1015 01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:10.520 I'm not going to make movies like that. I'm like, okay, well, 1016 01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:15.359 let me see what it is you've done. Yeah, it's morphus horrendous 1017 01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:18.399 kind of what and like, what are you doing? You haven't you've so 1018 01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:24.079 resisted all of the kind of rules, and not just necessarily like the Disney 1019 01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:28.319 rules or the Pixar rules, but just the rules of general storytelling. You 1020 01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:32.920 know, like of that fifty characters, fifty main characters is not a good 1021 01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:39.800 way to go. You know that that a film without conflict is not is 1022 01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:43.680 probably not going to work all that well. Right, A film that is 1023 01:13:43.760 --> 01:13:48.159 about something that nobody in the world cares about is not going to be uh 1024 01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:57.079 is not going to be enjoyable. There are but a film, a terribly 1025 01:13:57.159 --> 01:14:00.960 constructed film about something I really care about, and a you know, a 1026 01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:04.680 person who is who is wonderful, who I want to see more of, 1027 01:14:06.279 --> 01:14:11.680 And you know that that film is going to go through the roots. You 1028 01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:14.840 know it's gonna be be I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna and people are 1029 01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:16.680 gonna say, like, what was that that you were you kept talking about. 1030 01:14:16.720 --> 01:14:18.880 You know, I'm gonna go on social media. It's like, okay, 1031 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:21.479 look, I'm gonna go on on the limb and just say that this 1032 01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:26.720 movie was the best movie you know, that I've ever seen. And that's 1033 01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.760 especially from the indiast side. That's what you really likes. Goes in, 1034 01:14:32.520 --> 01:14:39.159 breaks into a house, eats porridge, sits in a chair, eats all 1035 01:14:39.159 --> 01:14:42.079 the porridge, sits in a chair, breaks it, and then sleeps in 1036 01:14:42.399 --> 01:14:45.840 a person's bad So it is an active crime going on. And then three 1037 01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:51.720 people return. Three characters return and and one is eating, one, one 1038 01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:56.079 is eating, one discovers something is wrong, one sits down, one sits 1039 01:14:56.119 --> 01:14:59.880 down, one is oh my god, whatever, and then they go pursue 1040 01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:01.920 it. So the baby bear is the is the protagonist of the story. 1041 01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:06.920 Now go tell the story, but tell the story in you know, what 1042 01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:11.479 are you going to do with the story now you know now you have your 1043 01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:15.279 own edge to it. Are you going to tell a story about a boy 1044 01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:18.119 who really wants to go to sleep? Are you going to tell a story 1045 01:15:18.119 --> 01:15:21.239 who's about a kid who's really hungry? Are you going to tell a story 1046 01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:26.119 about a kid with anger issues who is trying to hold it down whatever that 1047 01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:29.479 angle is. You know you have you now have the form war, you 1048 01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:32.199 know the format, and you can go and tell tell that and then get 1049 01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:36.479 good at that, get good at telling that story of doing your cover of 1050 01:15:36.760 --> 01:15:44.439 Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Then once you're feeling that, now go start 1051 01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:46.800 pitching your own stuff, you know, get that. And the way I 1052 01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:54.359 look at it is, you know, you've just seen you just saw Star 1053 01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:58.000 Wars. You know you just saw you know, the jj Abrams Star Wars, 1054 01:15:58.680 --> 01:16:01.520 and as you were leaving the building, it burned down. There was 1055 01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:03.840 an oil fire. The whole thing burned down, you know, all the 1056 01:16:03.960 --> 01:16:08.279 friends, everything, And now everybody turns to you and said, oh, 1057 01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:11.560 what was it? You know what happened? Yeah. A lot of people 1058 01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:15.560 when they pitched, they'll go, okay, well there's a ship and bigger 1059 01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:21.520 ship. This kid comes in and he's take out garbage, and then it's 1060 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:29.920 this kind of hipstory. Who was really mean? There's a soccer ball but 1061 01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:32.680 you know it does whatever, and it's like, no, you know, 1062 01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:39.439 how do you tell that story? You are the last lifeline of this of 1063 01:16:39.560 --> 01:16:45.600 the greatest movie ever made. How do you tell it and have that behind 1064 01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:48.840 you, but with a story that you already know. Get comfortable with that 1065 01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:53.399 if it's it's your tape recorders, whatever, and then go. Then you 1066 01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:57.279 have that set of skills and you're not pitching garbage, and you also are 1067 01:16:57.439 --> 01:17:00.960 learning from those reps. This pitch as well. This does not pitch well. 1068 01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:06.520 You know, this is the essence of storytelling most of the time. 1069 01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.920 And I mentioned it before, most of the time. Like right now, 1070 01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:15.359 I'm doing a you know, this superhero thing, and I watched everything. 1071 01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:21.239 It's everything, and I rewatched everything from the point of view of me making 1072 01:17:21.399 --> 01:17:25.960 this new movie, and I'm taking notes on it, like, oh great. 1073 01:17:26.119 --> 01:17:30.000 You know, they spend a good iron Man spends a good long time 1074 01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:33.319 in the middle of the movie just becoming Iron Man. Yeah, Man spends 1075 01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:38.680 a good long time in the middle of that movie. And in both you 1076 01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:44.079 know, first versions, you know when when Uncle Ben dies, spends a 1077 01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:46.560 lot of time on the suit and the web and the thing, you know, 1078 01:17:46.800 --> 01:17:51.359 the mechanics of becoming Spider Man. That's a big part of our enjoyment. 1079 01:17:51.399 --> 01:17:56.600 They don't just put on the suit and oh here I go. It's 1080 01:17:56.720 --> 01:17:59.600 it's a big part of the journey. So great I have to have that 1081 01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:03.399 in mine, you know, and just kind of going through it, understanding 1082 01:18:03.439 --> 01:18:08.000 it, and then when I pitch it, I'm pitching it like a Star 1083 01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:13.079 Wars. I just had this meeting a day or two ago, you know, 1084 01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:15.520 and I'll get up, I'll warn around the room, you know, 1085 01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:19.800 I'm shooting stuff down whatever. You know. I have this, this this 1086 01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:24.560 total enjoyment because I love these movies. You know, I want first I 1087 01:18:24.600 --> 01:18:29.079 want them to make my movie. But second, I can't wait to see 1088 01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:30.560 my movie, you know. I can't wait to be in the line, 1089 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:33.439 you know for the nine o'clock show when the seven o'clock comes, you know, 1090 01:18:34.600 --> 01:18:39.720 comes out. So I love that. So that's my little soapbucket. 1091 01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:44.279 I'm glad I said it in the other one and and I'm hopefully, like 1092 01:18:44.359 --> 01:18:47.960 I said, I hope it's valuable to your Actually it's extremely valuable because I 1093 01:18:48.199 --> 01:18:50.880 had, you know, with my podcast, I have just people will email 1094 01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:56.399 me, you know occasionally, and just they's just asking advice or opinions. 1095 01:18:57.039 --> 01:19:00.720 And I made a point to a young filmmaker, I said, if you 1096 01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:03.079 kind of want to test yourself as a filmmaker, whether or not you're a 1097 01:19:03.159 --> 01:19:10.760 good director or not make a short film based off of some very famous short 1098 01:19:10.840 --> 01:19:15.279 story that's in public domain, something that has proven like that exists, like 1099 01:19:15.319 --> 01:19:19.680 an Edgar Allan Poe story. That's something that's like, Okay, this exists. 1100 01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:27.039 This is a historically well known story that has all the elements in there 1101 01:19:27.159 --> 01:19:32.079 that make it successful. So if you can one write it, adapt adaptation 1102 01:19:32.159 --> 01:19:35.359 of it, and then two, if you're a director, you can test 1103 01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:39.880 your directing chops that way because it's all the elements are there. You know, 1104 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.119 the stories solid, you know it's a you know, short enough that 1105 01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:46.479 you can make it within your means, and then if it falls flat, 1106 01:19:46.800 --> 01:19:49.359 then you can go back and figure out why it fell flat, because it 1107 01:19:49.560 --> 01:19:55.439 then it puts you because you can't blame anything like I can't blame the story 1108 01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:58.039 didn't work or the screenwriter didn't write it right or something like that. It's 1109 01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:05.520 will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to 1110 01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:11.279 the show. I mean there's all these elements there of like you really really 1111 01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:15.000 want to test yourself as a director, that's a good thing. And look 1112 01:20:15.039 --> 01:20:17.560 at the look at this exc you know, out of Sundance right there. 1113 01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:21.880 The Birth of a Nation's sold for fourteen seventeen four, right, and that's 1114 01:20:23.279 --> 01:20:27.800 that was a take on they already established movie. You know, it's his 1115 01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:30.920 riff on this movie that you can't wait to see because it's definitely a long 1116 01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:34.439 overdue take on that movie. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, and 1117 01:20:34.520 --> 01:20:39.760 it should it should be fun and and that enhances the viewing of the movie. 1118 01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:45.199 And I think too. Yeah, with a lot of short films that 1119 01:20:45.359 --> 01:20:47.439 I see, I'll always say, like, what short films did you watch 1120 01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:51.760 to inspire you to do this? Because most of the short films I've seen, 1121 01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:55.720 especially the you know, the good one, you know, the Pixar 1122 01:20:55.800 --> 01:21:00.680 ones and also the really good live action ones, are very very simple. 1123 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:05.479 One one person or two, you know, in a relationship, and then 1124 01:21:05.560 --> 01:21:12.720 that slowly evolves over time. There was a you're talking about riffs on some 1125 01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:15.399 There was this YouTube thing that happened that I thought was great. Was the 1126 01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:19.239 Power Rangers thing with I don't know if you saw that the fan film or 1127 01:21:19.279 --> 01:21:21.880 which one, Yeah, the fan film, the Power Rangers fan film. 1128 01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:26.159 I guess they had to take it down, but it was fantastic. It 1129 01:21:26.319 --> 01:21:31.439 was like I'd never you know, this guy's take on Power Rangers. You 1130 01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:34.600 know, the wink is of course it's Power Rangers, but it's like the 1131 01:21:36.279 --> 01:21:41.439 yeah, you know they're Dams vander Being and stuff like, oh, this 1132 01:21:41.720 --> 01:21:45.439 is this is seriously enjoyable. This guy can I can't wait to watch this 1133 01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:49.359 guy make a movie. You know, the Deadpool trailer, you know, 1134 01:21:49.520 --> 01:21:56.039 the little sizzle off of that. You know, that's the first time director 1135 01:21:56.159 --> 01:22:00.760 and now of course the biggest highest grossing I take my for a time director. 1136 01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:05.159 It was you know, it is something that we've seen before, you 1137 01:22:05.239 --> 01:22:11.560 know, you know, it's it's a thing, and the way he did 1138 01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:15.239 it was just fantastic, you know, and obviously like because the other thing 1139 01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:19.039 that I would put to that is the short story that you adapt should be 1140 01:22:19.119 --> 01:22:23.640 one that you absolutely love, and the way that you do it should be 1141 01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:27.560 you should be showing everything that you do great. You know. If you 1142 01:22:27.720 --> 01:22:30.680 are a great cinematographer, it should be a beautiful movie. If you are 1143 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:34.039 great with character, it should be or whatever. If you're funny, you 1144 01:22:34.119 --> 01:22:39.279 know, don't try to wake funny if you're not funny way by all means, 1145 01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:42.439 because one bad joke will kill you, you know, as far as 1146 01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:46.399 the enjoyment of it. But yeah, if you can work. If your 1147 01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:51.960 best friend is a fantastic actor, you know, go do you know, 1148 01:22:54.279 --> 01:22:57.000 get on him, you know, call it every favor. You know, 1149 01:22:57.199 --> 01:23:00.880 hey, I give the speech at your wedding, you know, show up 1150 01:23:00.920 --> 01:23:03.079 for four an hour and a half and and help me. Help me in 1151 01:23:03.159 --> 01:23:08.560 my movie. Robert Rodriguez will talk about that, like, don't anything that 1152 01:23:08.720 --> 01:23:10.680 you know, I have a friend that has a bar. I have another 1153 01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:14.199 friend that owns a bus. You know, great, there's going to be 1154 01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:15.960 a bus chase and part of this is going to take place in my friend's 1155 01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:20.279 bar. Awesome. Then you know, production value goes through the roof and 1156 01:23:20.479 --> 01:23:26.359 you're on the map as a as a serious filmmaker. Yeah, and definitely, 1157 01:23:26.600 --> 01:23:30.000 like all those processes helps. The idea is to kind of keep yourself 1158 01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:33.760 in check, to keep humbled, so that, like you said, if 1159 01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:38.680 you're to put yourself out there as a writer, as a filmmaker, as 1160 01:23:38.680 --> 01:23:44.199 a storyteller, to utilize a brain trust kind of concept, you have to 1161 01:23:44.399 --> 01:23:48.039 be willing to accept, like to to to let go of what you've created 1162 01:23:48.520 --> 01:23:51.920 and know that it's not yours anymore. I think Laster talked about that. 1163 01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:56.159 He said that when they created Buzzing Woody, there was a point where they 1164 01:23:56.199 --> 01:24:00.439 realize it's no longer theirs. It's like now they have a responsibility to serve 1165 01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:09.159 those characters honestly and and truthfully to the audience, you know. And I 1166 01:24:09.239 --> 01:24:15.439 think that's a very very important because you have to you have to listen that 1167 01:24:15.520 --> 01:24:17.359 people don't just give notes just for the sake of giving notes. Yeah, 1168 01:24:17.479 --> 01:24:25.640 they're addressing, they're addressing a problem. Sometimes a problem took place pages before 1169 01:24:26.039 --> 01:24:29.359 what they're addressing. You know, sometimes the wheels were off the wagon way 1170 01:24:29.439 --> 01:24:33.119 before. You know, this particular scene that that drove everybody nuts. You 1171 01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:35.119 know, it was a setup. It was the amp up to it. 1172 01:24:35.680 --> 01:24:39.920 And uh, and you have to be open to that. I was giving 1173 01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:42.760 notes to a writer. He sent me something and said, oh, I 1174 01:24:42.840 --> 01:24:45.000 just want to hear your input. Okay, I'm gonna be tough. Oh 1175 01:24:45.199 --> 01:24:49.920 yeah, that's okay. And I gave him the notes and it was and 1176 01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:54.880 you know, me like I like to talk, but it was it was 1177 01:24:55.880 --> 01:25:00.479 I would say, four fifths him defending the thing that he had done and 1178 01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:04.359 only one fifth of me giving the note. And I was like, look, 1179 01:25:04.399 --> 01:25:08.760 we're not going to get anywhere with this because I'm not just giving you 1180 01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:11.399 notes because I want you to talk me out of it. You know, 1181 01:25:11.560 --> 01:25:15.640 I know your intent is on the piece of paper. If it is not 1182 01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:18.199 clear, you know, you've got to work with it. You know, 1183 01:25:18.640 --> 01:25:24.239 it's not just you know, I will give this note, but probably you 1184 01:25:24.319 --> 01:25:27.399 know, everyone that you give it to will probably give these same notes. 1185 01:25:27.439 --> 01:25:30.920 And if they don't, they're not doing you any favors. But that but 1186 01:25:31.119 --> 01:25:35.600 part of the process when you're a when you're an artist, it hurts to 1187 01:25:35.680 --> 01:25:40.439 get notes. It physically hurts you. You know, it's like somebody is 1188 01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:45.720 roughing up your baby and you just have to. I think it was David, 1189 01:25:46.199 --> 01:25:49.600 the guy who created Family Ties. He said, you just write down 1190 01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:54.560 the note. That's all you need to do. Understand it, write it 1191 01:25:54.640 --> 01:26:00.199 down, then, you know, conclude the conversation, punched the pillows or 1192 01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:05.279 whatever, you know, bry in the shower, and then and then go 1193 01:26:05.479 --> 01:26:10.920 and look at the notes and say, Okay, what did I This will 1194 01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:14.560 ultimately make it better something you'll just cross off and say, I don't care. 1195 01:26:14.600 --> 01:26:16.960 I'll get this note nine times out of ten. Most of the time 1196 01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:20.680 it's like, you know what, I didn't sell it. I just there's 1197 01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:26.960 something you know, my intention was to do this. I didn't. That's 1198 01:26:27.000 --> 01:26:30.920 what threw him off and this But of course you have to start off with 1199 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:34.079 the intention, right, You have to start off with a strong motivated character. 1200 01:26:34.359 --> 01:26:38.560 It has to be very clear what it is the story that you're telling. 1201 01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:44.960 People get bored with plot. They are excited with story with you know, 1202 01:26:45.239 --> 01:26:48.479 with the drive and the conflict. You know, even Aristotle talked about, 1203 01:26:48.560 --> 01:26:55.039 you know, intention, obstacle anything was. I was watching Don't Nabby 1204 01:26:55.319 --> 01:26:59.840 right because the last episode was on, and I'm oh, just in tear 1205 01:27:00.920 --> 01:27:04.720 a kid from Black Kid from Detroit, you know, main demo. But 1206 01:27:05.720 --> 01:27:11.680 but it made me go back to the first episode and watch that. So 1207 01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:17.520 I'm watching that in the first three episode and and it's all there, you 1208 01:27:17.600 --> 01:27:21.720 know. And and Julian Fellows in an interview, he says, well, 1209 01:27:21.720 --> 01:27:30.159 I was watching West Wing and I saw that how Aaron Sorkin crafted the characters 1210 01:27:30.279 --> 01:27:32.439 in the pilot of West Wing, and I took that as my template. 1211 01:27:32.520 --> 01:27:35.840 And then that's what I did in Downtown Abbey. Interesting now you would think 1212 01:27:35.880 --> 01:27:42.279 those two shows are completely completely different. But a structuralist, a writer who 1213 01:27:42.359 --> 01:27:47.359 knows craft and loved crafts, it's the same thing. So the flirtation between 1214 01:27:47.479 --> 01:27:54.279 the you know, Carson and you know this is that's that's there, and 1215 01:27:55.000 --> 01:28:00.359 the little dynamics and just the sisters, all of that's there, and uh, 1216 01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:04.079 you know, progress is coming. I mean the opening event is is 1217 01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:10.039 the Titanic, you know, goes down and kills dozens who were set to 1218 01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:13.359 inherit the estate. And now it's you know this this this other guy so 1219 01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:17.159 like cheers, right, this person is coming in, you know, he's 1220 01:28:17.199 --> 01:28:21.640 lost the waitress, this new person comes in. You know, it's it 1221 01:28:23.239 --> 01:28:26.760 clocks along. But it's all story. You know, it's all story. 1222 01:28:27.279 --> 01:28:31.439 You're you're driving towards this thing that the world is changing, and the you 1223 01:28:31.479 --> 01:28:34.560 know, the the head butler and in the lord of the estate are saying, 1224 01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:39.359 oh my god, I don't know what's you know, what are we 1225 01:28:39.439 --> 01:28:42.600 going to do? And that's the tension in every episode. That's great. 1226 01:28:43.039 --> 01:28:49.159 This is great storyteller, right, and and those are the tools that has 1227 01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:54.359 nothing to do with the software. Yeah, yeah, exactly nothing. You 1228 01:28:54.399 --> 01:28:57.800 know, I don't care what method. You know, what if he's a 1229 01:28:57.840 --> 01:29:01.840 movie magic, if Julian Fellows is reading writing it with a quill, you 1230 01:29:01.920 --> 01:29:09.600 know it is it is it is great storytelling, and and that's what's gonna 1231 01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:13.439 that's what it's gonna save you. You could film that thing, you know, 1232 01:29:13.520 --> 01:29:16.000 with a cardboard box, and it will be compelling television. Yeah. 1233 01:29:16.399 --> 01:29:21.479 Yeah, you know you mentioned some things like clear is it is? You 1234 01:29:21.520 --> 01:29:26.560 know, when you're giving notes or feedback or accepting that. I don't remember 1235 01:29:26.600 --> 01:29:29.479 where I heard this before, but I wanted to implement because somebody had asked 1236 01:29:29.520 --> 01:29:34.159 me, like just advice, like me to give advice like when you're giving 1237 01:29:34.239 --> 01:29:38.159 like when somebody read your script. I said, well, one thing you 1238 01:29:38.199 --> 01:29:42.319 can do to get constructive feedback. I don't I really don't know where I 1239 01:29:42.399 --> 01:29:45.039 heard this before, but I thought it was great. Was simply, Uh 1240 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:49.640 was simply when you read the script, can you read my story? Can 1241 01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:55.479 you tell me one? Is it clear? Two? If it is clear, 1242 01:29:56.039 --> 01:30:03.600 is it interesting? We'll be right back after a from our sponsor and 1243 01:30:03.720 --> 01:30:10.479 now back to the show. The exactly that way. That way, you're 1244 01:30:10.479 --> 01:30:13.680 not there's no there's no like you can't be defensive about it. It's just 1245 01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:16.239 like, well I read it, I wasn't sure about what happened here or 1246 01:30:16.439 --> 01:30:19.239 why the character did this. He goes, well, it is clear, 1247 01:30:19.399 --> 01:30:24.479 but it felt like stuff I've seen before. You know that way, it's 1248 01:30:24.560 --> 01:30:27.600 not a personal attack on you. Like, okay, so that I can 1249 01:30:27.680 --> 01:30:30.760 work on that note and that you can kind of police yourself on right, 1250 01:30:30.920 --> 01:30:34.720 Yeah, that that you. I was working with Dan Fogelman, who who 1251 01:30:34.760 --> 01:30:46.319 had written Cars and You Would Love, and we were working on a draft, 1252 01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:55.600 yeah, a movie for Disney Live Action Animation Hybrid. And one of 1253 01:30:55.640 --> 01:30:57.600 the things that he said to me, which was great, he says, 1254 01:30:57.920 --> 01:31:00.840 on every page, assume that the person reading it might be on a treadmill, 1255 01:31:01.119 --> 01:31:05.359 and and that that person, you know, you have to make the 1256 01:31:05.439 --> 01:31:10.239 intention very clear, the obstacle very clear. Tell the story that you're going 1257 01:31:10.279 --> 01:31:13.039 to tell. Clarity, clarity, clarity, because you don't want the note. 1258 01:31:13.279 --> 01:31:15.079 That's one note that you can easily take off the table. It wasn't 1259 01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:26.399 clear. I like one of one of the things that I love. I'm 1260 01:31:27.640 --> 01:31:30.720 I'm a writer who likes a study writing. I like, I'll listen to 1261 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:34.920 anybody who's talking about how they're how they you know, every everybody's lecture is 1262 01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:38.880 everybody's series. I love that stuff. And one thing was this guy, 1263 01:31:39.800 --> 01:31:43.399 the guy who wrote four Weddings in a Funeral, whose name is Escape, 1264 01:31:43.960 --> 01:31:47.880 but he had also written Love Actually, and before that he wrote this great 1265 01:31:47.960 --> 01:31:53.000 series called Blackadder, and he was, you know, Royan Atkinson's like kind 1266 01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:57.800 of main guy, and and one thing that he said is, you know, 1267 01:31:57.960 --> 01:32:01.079 don't be afraid of writing on the note. And he says one of 1268 01:32:01.079 --> 01:32:06.560 the most famous lines, and I think it's love actually, as he says 1269 01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:10.119 he's sitting there, he's riding around it, around it, around it, 1270 01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:12.640 and he says, I'm just gonna say what it is it's happening, and 1271 01:32:12.720 --> 01:32:17.119 he wrote the line I'm just a woman talking to a man, just a 1272 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:20.840 girl talking to a boy. No, that's I think. I was actually 1273 01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:25.359 nodding Hill right with Julie Robins exactly. Yes, oh guy, you're right. 1274 01:32:25.840 --> 01:32:28.359 Don't be afraid to ride in the nose. That's such a great like 1275 01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:31.600 simple a vice, like yeah, then if it's then if if people don't 1276 01:32:31.840 --> 01:32:35.439 like it, then find then that's a that's a whole separate conversation. But 1277 01:32:35.520 --> 01:32:41.159 they won't go what what's going on? You know this stage it was like 1278 01:32:41.199 --> 01:32:44.600 they're kind of talking around something. I don't really get it whatever, and 1279 01:32:44.640 --> 01:32:48.439 then it just lost me, like no, you know that that what is 1280 01:32:48.479 --> 01:32:53.560 it? Like, you know, Darth Vader states his intentions pretty much that 1281 01:32:54.279 --> 01:32:58.079 you know, yeah lines, you know, he's like, you know, 1282 01:32:58.279 --> 01:33:00.920 I will you know he states isn't tentions. That's why that's one of those 1283 01:33:01.039 --> 01:33:03.880 things that you know you can dance around, but you really have to hit 1284 01:33:04.000 --> 01:33:08.239 at some point or another. Is you know what what Pixar would call the 1285 01:33:08.279 --> 01:33:13.319 I want song. You know that that nobody does. Everybody sings and I 1286 01:33:13.479 --> 01:33:17.439 want song in some way or another and go, I like that sing that 1287 01:33:17.680 --> 01:33:21.479 one song. You know, I can't I talk to you for There's so 1288 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:25.239 much I would love to having. I would love to have another opportunity to 1289 01:33:25.319 --> 01:33:27.600 have you come back on too. We could talk more. You know, 1290 01:33:28.399 --> 01:33:33.359 you're working with Aaron's workin and just other writing. You have your master's classes 1291 01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:36.399 coming up. I definitely make sure you have. Everybody has the links and 1292 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:40.720 promote. You know, Rob Edwards dot Net. I know you're you're starting. 1293 01:33:40.960 --> 01:33:45.840 That's the community. Yeah, you can also find me a at I 1294 01:33:45.960 --> 01:33:50.039 am Rob Edwards on Twitter. Okay, great, yeah that's that's new. 1295 01:33:50.119 --> 01:33:54.720 Oh that's brand new. Perfect. I was terrified of what I would do 1296 01:33:54.880 --> 01:33:59.880 on Twitter and finally I said, okay, just put it away at three 1297 01:34:00.079 --> 01:34:03.520 am. Yeah, don't don't. I try not to twitter too much, 1298 01:34:03.560 --> 01:34:10.520 but but I most uh, anything that happens that of interest will be on 1299 01:34:10.600 --> 01:34:13.920 there. Oh fantastic, Okay, yeah, all the blog posts, all 1300 01:34:13.960 --> 01:34:16.640 that stuff will be well, you know as we wrap you know, wrap 1301 01:34:16.680 --> 01:34:20.880 all this stuff up. I can't thank you enough for taking a time, 1302 01:34:20.920 --> 01:34:27.279 your generosity to share with me your knowledge, your experience, and this aspect 1303 01:34:27.319 --> 01:34:32.359 of the brain Trust, or of any sort of communal like writing group that 1304 01:34:32.520 --> 01:34:36.159 has affected this. Like that was really important to me because I'm trying to 1305 01:34:36.279 --> 01:34:42.000 show to my audience like I want to apply this stuff. So like literally, 1306 01:34:42.039 --> 01:34:45.039 I think the next episode I'll be doing for my podcast is a video 1307 01:34:45.279 --> 01:34:50.880 hang out with some people I bring together to illustrate like here it is, 1308 01:34:53.319 --> 01:34:56.720 you know, a brain trust, my own version of a brain trust group 1309 01:34:56.760 --> 01:35:01.039 put together on on the on the script that I'm then we're I don't know, 1310 01:35:01.479 --> 01:35:05.640 yeah exactly with those improvms. You know, yeah, the rules established, 1311 01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:09.880 the rules. You're clearly you know, hit the bigger problems. First. 1312 01:35:10.520 --> 01:35:15.079 It's a yes and you know what if and and yes and yeah and 1313 01:35:15.560 --> 01:35:19.800 and piling on and you know, best idea, you know, no bad 1314 01:35:19.880 --> 01:35:25.239 ideas. Just build build build, right, Yeah, that's that's awesome. 1315 01:35:25.640 --> 01:35:28.199 I think it's something so the people to see it, like, oh, 1316 01:35:28.319 --> 01:35:31.840 I see how that's working, and maybe they can stop before they settle on 1317 01:35:31.960 --> 01:35:35.079 their story, like they can push themselves. And it's really just it's a 1318 01:35:35.319 --> 01:35:40.159 call. It's a cry out, a call to the rest of the independent 1319 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:44.279 filmmakers out there, like just because you can make it, just don't make 1320 01:35:44.319 --> 01:35:46.840 it just yet, you know, like use use the right tools, you 1321 01:35:46.880 --> 01:35:50.079 know, don't you like I always say, I want to say, you're 1322 01:35:50.199 --> 01:35:55.960 using the wrong tools. You know. Just stay stay, stay with you 1323 01:35:56.039 --> 01:36:00.439 know three about you know, index cards and post it notes and and stuff, 1324 01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:04.039 and work the story. Don't lock it down so so early. It's 1325 01:36:04.039 --> 01:36:10.319 like you don't lack a painting after the first jroke and and use use other 1326 01:36:10.479 --> 01:36:15.680 people. It's a told we tell stories, you know. A big part 1327 01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:18.039 of a Princess in the Frog we were we were pitching that thing all the 1328 01:36:18.159 --> 01:36:23.720 time. You know. I love him to pitch. I will pitch people 1329 01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:26.800 say hey, what are you working on? I will you know, I'll 1330 01:36:26.840 --> 01:36:31.199 just take over the party. Oh, let me tell you this. It's 1331 01:36:31.239 --> 01:36:35.159 upon a time because I want to see if people are gonna if people's eyes 1332 01:36:35.159 --> 01:36:41.880 are gonna glaze over. Yeah, if people's eyes are gonna glaze over, 1333 01:36:41.960 --> 01:36:46.239 I want to see him glaze over. If people are if people are leaning 1334 01:36:46.319 --> 01:36:49.600 in, if people laugh at something. Then the next time I tell that 1335 01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:54.039 thing, I'm gonna tell it's gonna be twice long, you know, till 1336 01:36:54.119 --> 01:36:57.920 that thing, you know, through a colosseum. Uh, and I'm gonna 1337 01:36:58.039 --> 01:37:01.560 avoid you know, just like the plague, the part where people's eyes glazed 1338 01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:05.760 over, and I could probably tell why their eyes eyes glazed over. Yeah, 1339 01:37:06.239 --> 01:37:11.760 it's that second question. It's yeah, it was clear but not interesting. 1340 01:37:12.560 --> 01:37:15.760 Okay, Yeah, this is amazing. That's something. Yeah, so 1341 01:37:16.119 --> 01:37:19.079 so awesome. So yeah, no, no, yeah, please let me 1342 01:37:19.159 --> 01:37:23.239 know when that happens. I can't wait to Yeah, I I put it 1343 01:37:23.279 --> 01:37:26.680 together. Actually, it's funny because I wrote a book as an experiment. 1344 01:37:26.720 --> 01:37:30.239 I was telling my audience and the podcasts like, hey, if you know, 1345 01:37:30.279 --> 01:37:34.000 filmmakers are just we're making digital products. And a lot of authors for 1346 01:37:34.239 --> 01:37:39.840 the longest time have been writing digital products for Amazon. You know, you're 1347 01:37:39.880 --> 01:37:43.199 just selling a digital product. So what are the mechanisms of like writing, 1348 01:37:43.319 --> 01:37:46.720 creating something digitally and then selling it. What are the marketing mechanisms of selling? 1349 01:37:47.079 --> 01:37:49.560 So I said, I'll write a book and put myself as a guinea 1350 01:37:49.600 --> 01:37:53.319 pick. So I did that last year and put it on Amazon, and 1351 01:37:53.359 --> 01:37:57.039 I've been selling it and I'm seeing what works and what doesn't work. But 1352 01:37:57.119 --> 01:38:00.560 part part of that process of writing a book, I I also record an 1353 01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:03.199 audio recording version of an audiobook of it. And I was like, wait 1354 01:38:03.199 --> 01:38:06.439 a minute, this is I've seen this happen because I know The Blacklist has 1355 01:38:06.920 --> 01:38:12.600 a podcast, and so I did an early version of my script by recording 1356 01:38:12.680 --> 01:38:16.159 it as an audio basically play. I was reading, like it's like an 1357 01:38:16.199 --> 01:38:18.359 audio table read, but it's you know, you can listen to it. 1358 01:38:18.840 --> 01:38:23.600 So the next I'm rewriting, doing the rewrites, and I'm going to I'll 1359 01:38:23.640 --> 01:38:26.880 record it. And that's sort of my way of like inviting my guests on 1360 01:38:27.079 --> 01:38:31.720 who will be part of this makeshift mass I'm sorry. Brain Trust group is 1361 01:38:31.800 --> 01:38:35.760 like you can either read the script or you can listen to it all the 1362 01:38:35.840 --> 01:38:40.319 bells and whistles with the actors I put in place, and the audio cues 1363 01:38:40.359 --> 01:38:43.359 and the music, so you can have like an audio experience of it. 1364 01:38:44.279 --> 01:38:45.920 And then that way it's easier for them. Like you said, they're on 1365 01:38:45.960 --> 01:38:49.399 a treadmill, they're in traffic, and they can listen to the story. 1366 01:38:49.760 --> 01:38:51.880 And then that way, when they come to the table, they can tell 1367 01:38:51.960 --> 01:38:56.079 me like what worked or what wasn't clear or what was it and then we 1368 01:38:56.159 --> 01:39:00.479 can take the brain trust meeting to the next level, because hopefully I have 1369 01:39:00.560 --> 01:39:06.640 to do something to create that visual experience or an emotional experience that's just not 1370 01:39:06.800 --> 01:39:11.600 just the written word. At least that's my intentions, right exactly. And 1371 01:39:11.720 --> 01:39:15.039 starting yeah, starting with yourself. What I love about that is that you 1372 01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:17.159 started with yourself as an audience. You know, what is the book I 1373 01:39:17.279 --> 01:39:21.279 most want to read? And then you know and then and you started there 1374 01:39:21.439 --> 01:39:25.840 so so you know what it what it needs to be. You also did 1375 01:39:25.880 --> 01:39:28.119 that, you know, kind of what I love that Tim Ferriss thing of, 1376 01:39:28.199 --> 01:39:30.800 like I'm a I'm a guinea pig. Yes, I'm just going to 1377 01:39:30.880 --> 01:39:35.640 throw myself into this and see what happens, which I think is a good 1378 01:39:35.720 --> 01:39:41.399 life experience. Like get used to getting bruised. You know, I say 1379 01:39:41.399 --> 01:39:45.039 it all the time. Embrace the suck. You know it all sucks. 1380 01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:47.560 You're always going to hear somebody going like, oh, that's stupid, and 1381 01:39:48.439 --> 01:39:53.880 you have to just say I know it's stupid now, but you know in 1382 01:39:53.960 --> 01:40:00.239 a couple of months it won't be. Yeah, we'll be right back after 1383 01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:08.800 a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. If you 1384 01:40:08.960 --> 01:40:11.439 tell if if I get the right you know, if I get the right 1385 01:40:11.479 --> 01:40:14.239 stuff, so so yeah, so so put yourself. You know, putting 1386 01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:16.520 yourself in the in the mouth of the lion is a great idea. Yeah, 1387 01:40:16.600 --> 01:40:19.159 that's that's that's gonna be a lot of fun. And you will you 1388 01:40:19.199 --> 01:40:25.279 will probably learn volumes from it because you'll have that that delicious like you says 1389 01:40:25.359 --> 01:40:29.479 flop set kind of thing. Yeah, like oh no, this is embarrassing, 1390 01:40:29.640 --> 01:40:30.880 and then you know, you always pull yourself out of the ashes. 1391 01:40:31.000 --> 01:40:34.399 Everybody does. Very very cool. Thank Rob, Thank you, thank you 1392 01:40:34.640 --> 01:40:38.920 so much. I can't thank you enough. Really, thank you for having 1393 01:40:38.960 --> 01:40:43.159 me. I want to thank Scott so much for doing such a great job 1394 01:40:43.239 --> 01:40:45.800 with this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about 1395 01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:48.199 in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV 1396 01:40:48.520 --> 01:40:51.960 Ford Slash three thirty. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As 1397 01:40:53.039 --> 01:40:56.439 always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. 1398 01:40:57.039 --> 01:41:06.800 Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasted Bulletproove Screenwriting dot tv. H