Made a decision. I'll face sunny sad on. I had a vision too.
We welcome to Thursday special guest episode of A for Crying Out Loud and
we have a special guest in studio Jillian Lauren, who, by the way,
is one of our most memorable I just told her this off air,
one of our most memorable guests that we've ever had on for Crying Out Loud
of all time. Yes, she wrote the book Some Girls about her time
in a harem and you told us the whole story. And it's a beautifully
written book. That book too, Yes, and it's so it was so
honest and like but entertaining, like we were just talking about before, and
I feel like kind of a breakthrough book. That book did really well,
right did Yeah, it was a great book. Know, it was like
they were just throwing spaghetti at the wall. They were like, sure,
you're a slut, and maybe this book will do. Like it was like
maybe something will happen. And it was the little engine that could you know
it like you know, it blew up and it's been translated in eighteen languages.
And I always think, you know, everyone's like, oh, you
know, you just have this wildlife, this wild wildlife. I'm like,
I do it's true, you know, I guess if you doesn't feel like
it right when it's your life, right. But also you know I'm a
writer, yes, right, you know plenty of people have wild lives.
But you are already a writer before you went, before you wrote Some Girls,
you were are writer? Correct? Yeah, I mean I wouldn't say
I would have identified that way like i'd be. I think my passport actually
said performance artists. Oh yeah, and that might be actually closer to the
truth than anything else. But yeah, I had a passport that said my
occupation was performance artists. Can I do weally just revisit that for one second
for people that don't know, how did you end up in a harem?
Well, I was trying to be an actor. I was living in New
York. Is this how every horrible story starts? It really is, isn't
it. And I went to college very early. I went to college when
I was sixteen, so I was at NYU, you know. And as
my fifteen year old sun says, now, I don't think that was a
very good idea. Mom. That doesn't sound very safe, mom, And
I'm like, oh, thank you, Lord, like I did something right,
and it definitely wasn't that. But you know, I left MU.
I was going on these auditions, and I was working on a vampire movie,
Victim one every time, like always a victim, never the purb,
Victim one, great tagline, and I made up right there on the spot.
You know, I had a tearorway cheerleader uniform, like I was running
through some beach in the Hamptons and freezing cold with you know, a cheerleader
uniform that came off and nieces right. And there I met a young woman
who also was in the same kind of you know, trying to make it
and also doing everything you have to do to live in New York, which
is basically donate a kidney, and and she was like, you are ruining
your knees acting like a stripper. And I actually have this audition that you
know, you can make way more money in short of time. And I
was like, oh, this friend, this new friend, and I went,
I went to the audition and I got it, and then they called
me and said, actually, that wasn't an audition. It was an invitation
to come to the parties of the richest man in the world, which he's
been knocked off into like number four now, oh oh, but he's still
up there. He's still up there. Yeah, I mean they have such
oil reserves. It's really about resources, right, It's tiny country. But
so did you know anything about it at the time. I never even heard
of it. Right. They were like, your all right, how much
money? Well you know it was They said twenty thousand dollars for two weeks,
and I was like, I've never heard that amount of money before in
my life. I mean, I left for Brunei three days after I was
eighteen. Oh my god, wow, and I had already been trying to
support myself in New York and I was just like, this is gonna be
a breeze and a half. And they're like, all you do is sing
songs and dance, and I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's not all I'm
gonna have to do. But so you did this. But I'm not an
idiot and I'm not a diplomat. You now, I thought, probably,
yeah, that you know, there was going to be some shady ship going
on, and they're absolutely was and did for the next year and a half.
But I remember you said that Prince Jeffrey was that same. Yes,
Prince Jeffrey, you never called him that. They have to call him Robin,
Robin Robin, I know, isn't It's like so lame like the Sultan.
You had to call him Marty. Oh, Marty, I know.
I was like, like my uncle Marty, like you couldn't know if you
can just pick well, because they do. They also like Robin. Yeah,
you have to call him Robin. You call him prince like greg or
like I know Marty, know, like just Chris Elmsworth is my you said
he was kind of cute right like you were he was. I mean,
you know, I'm a little short for me. He always said we're flats.
I was like, I'd rather die, but you know, little short.
And but he was thirty thirty something early thirties when I was, you
know, in my very I'm just like not early Jean, like my late
teens, right, and uh, you know that just seemed like so old.
Any younger ones around, any younger guys. Well, he had an
entourage, okay, but all of them had girlfriends within the harem. So
it was just a big party every single night, right right, And but
like his entourage, there maybe ten of them, some of them, I
liked one of the others. You know, some were cool, but they
would have a girlfriend there. But like if you were Prince Jeffrey's girlfriend,
then you were not up for grabs. I feel like in the story,
I mean, I read it so long ago, but I feel like I
remember that you were you kind of were in and out of favor, like
you were uh huh, like you were you were the prize. You were
like number one for a little while right now, no number number two,
oh number two, okay, and two weeks led more and it did not
end up being two weeks a year and aye, eighteen months. Wow,
Jesus, I now, and then you went home and didn't you go back?
Yeah? I yes, I went went room and I went back like
there was this I had this whole I know. It's you know, it's
actually like if you're talking about sex trafficking, right, which I don't tend
to like hit that really hard because I feel it's the minute that people stop
listening, you know. But I was a teenager, yeah, you know,
and I was, you know, very quickly sort of drawn into this
thing that was presented as one thing and then it was actually another thing.
I mean, and when I talk about it, I always say, you
know, I know it sounds like when you read the shopping chapter, Like
when I got sent shopping and Singapore and they closed down all the malls and
I had a guard with me with the Luviton sack full of cash, just
saying like hit Chanel, hit like every designer store and get everything you want.
I was like that mom at Toys r US or whatever that is now
just like they're like, you have fifteen minutes to get every single cabbage BATCHKT
right, and like they read that and go like wow, it sounds so
glamorous and fantastic, and I wish I could do that. And then,
you know, I mean the truth was. And also now I look back
and I'm like, could you be a little more fun? Like does everything
have to be a bummer? And we can move into my next book with
that so much more. He does have to be a bummer. I came.
You know, everyone's like, oh, the shopping trip where you get
to buy every Harmony gown. You know there's no price limit. I'm throwing
Chanel purses at them like just just these and that one too, and that
also and that sounds like your dream but like, really what I did was
go home after that and just like cry right because you know, there were
fifteen suitcases in front of me and I was not an idiot, not then
or not ever, and I was like this is disgusting, you know,
like, yes, I did just get to run through a mall and throw
Chanel purses that you know, and I did the dumbest thing. Do you
want to know what I did? Yeah? Like I was like, I
just have to clan. I had one of those ray Condo moments. Don't
do it. I was like, this doesn't bring me joy to touch this
Chanel person. I'm giving it to my babysitter. I'm giving them all to
my babysitter, all of it. I know, I have like one thing
left. Wow, I say, I was just like I gave it all
away, right, And I mean I can't say you know that that process
for me was you know, I'm like, dumbass, you couldn't have sold
it in the real real But also kind of I don't know that there would
have been enough money right like then to pay for me just saying fuck you,
this isn't ever what really mattered to me. Do you feel like writing
the book in some ways helped you process, you know, what you went
through, and maybe some of the trauma from that like helped you figure out
a way to look at it. Or do you think it was more a
time like now as a real grown woman you can come back and go as
woman. Yeah, I know I hate that I'm a woman. I think
that writing is not therapy. However, the writing process for me has given
me a way to frame the world right, it has given It's given me
a reason to pay attention. And and yes I was a writer ish when
I went entrepreneur, but really I started being a writer there frankly because it
was so damn boring, you know, And all of a sudden my journals
turned into and not like I need to lose five pounds and Chris is real
cute, and you know, I really need to do better in juggling class,
you know, in experimental theater school. You know how much I impressed
my kids my juggling skills. Now, you never know how these things are
gonna can juggle. You can juggle. These things are gonna turn out.
I can juggle a little bit, only three. I can juggle. I
can juggle three, all right. I can do a juggle. Three,
I don't make me add a fourth and why? But really, I don't
think writing is therapy. I think you need therapy for the writing. However,
like writing has given me meaning, yeah, as a person and as
an artist, and a way to grapple with stuff that you know. I've
been talking to my husband lately. I'm like, did you even know that
this, this, and this happened? And he's like, not, like
that was not one of the things you mentioned in the nineteen episodes of sexual
abuse or sex. You know, writing has given me a way to take
that narrative and make it mine. I can't say it fixed it fixed me,
or it was cathartic, or but it's given me a purpose in life.
Well, let's I think, let's take a quick break. We'll get
to her new book. Okay, we're back. So you've written some books
in between. This book is something very different for you. And it's called
Behold the Months her a very attention grabbing title, I think. And it's
about the serial killer Sam Little and you, like a lot of us,
especially women, were already into true crime, already fascinated by true crime.
I want to hear. I have read some of this book so far.
I only got the book Full Disclosure a couple of days ago, but I've
already it's already can't put it down. My husband was like, what are
you reading? Like constantly, like every few minutes. I was like picking
the book back up, and he's like, what is that. I was
like, She's going to be a guest on her show, and it's so
good. And this book has everything. So it's basically how you found this
case and how you got into it, and then your interviews with detectives and
your own research, but a lot of it is and then your meetings with
this serial killer, which I want to hear all about. But then also,
as the beautiful writer that you are, there are all of these chapters
in the books where you put yourself in the body of the victims and told
their story as best as you could put it together. So I mean,
just just like, start at the beginning, tell us how it came came
about. I highly recommend this book. It's amazing. I highly recommend this
book too. And I've never felt about any of my books like I'm not
a message driven writer, you know, I'm not like writing a book to
convince you of something or like I'm I'm like sharing an experience of life and
this world and my unique as I for detail, perhaps you know, is
all I ever hoped for. But I've I've never stood on a soapbox before,
and I will do it for this book. Because I started by working
on a novel. I was writing a mystery novel. I have been obsessed
with mysteries. I've read every Agatha Christie book before I was twelve years old.
And I just asked myself, you know, I'm a little bit sick
of me being the center of the narrative right like everything it's like memoir memoir.
And I also do have a lovely little novel called Pretty in there.
But what has really caught fire have been my memoirs. And I was like,
I want out, I want out of this story. So I'm gonna
do this audacious thing. I was writing a fiction book. I got an
interview with this incredible detective. Her name is Mitzi Roberts. She works at
the Homicide Division here in LA which is they're the fancy detectives that you see
in all the shows U And actually, if you're a reader of Michael Connolly,
who's been a great champion of this book, and everyone is a reader
of Michael Connolly. I think his character, Renee Ballard is based on Mitsy
Roberts. And through Michael, I was able to get this coveted interview with
like the hottest detective and I was talking to her about the Black Dahlia case.
I was talking to her about historical cases. And at the very end
of the interview, because I'd like to leave it on a high note,
I said, you know, what are you the most proud of She said,
I'm proud of them all. But I did catch this serial killer once,
and that was pretty cool. I was just like, I blew this
entire interview. You're like, what what? I buried the lead. I
blew the whole interview. All the iced tea is like down to the water,
you know, And I was just like, all right, give it
to be quick, you know, like exactly feeling a need for some I
don't even know what dessert is. But she did tell me, and I
went and looked him up, Samuel Little, and she told me he was
an underreported serial killer. They got him on three counts of murder and they
did it through a grant through the Department of justice. As forensics have advanced,
you know, we can look at cold case evidence in a new way
with new materials, and so they were able. They got a hit,
they got a hit, they got another hit, and now you have a
serial killer. And so you know, I said, I called my editor
at New York Magazine and was like, I got a serial killer here.
And she was like, we're not doing another gruesome like serial killer Store.
You're gonna have to have an angle. And I was like, okay,
you're an angle. I'm I'm going to talk to this guy. And so
I started writing him, which is how you do it, because you can't
just like walk into a maximum ski I'm here to see Samuel. Yes,
I would like to see sam Little who I Maybe it made me like take
my nose rings out at the oh. The worst was when I first showed
up at the prison. You know, my aunt is a famous psychiatrist,
and she told me just it's gonna be what it's gonna be, and like
she sounded sad when I was like, what's gonna be, Like, what's
gonna be like to talk to a psychopath? And she said, it's gonna
be like this, he's gonna ask you for your shirt off your back,
and you're gonna give him the shirt off your back, and at the same
time he's gonna be telling you he is stealing the shirt off your back,
and you will still feel compelled to give it to him. And I thought
that was probably the best simmation what my entire experience over years was with him,
which is a fabulous It's a fabulous opportunity for a journalist to have hundreds
of hours of interviews, not three It takes more than three hours, kind
of get it right. So you wrote him back and forth and then tell
us about I thought it was so it's so good in the book, tell
us about like your first visit, you were so nervous you had brought tell
us what you brought because quarters Okay, so she's looking at me like I
don't know what I brought him Like, I'm like, what did I bring?
Well, no, actually I still have that. You can bring a
clear like purse or a plastic bag. Right, So the first time I
actually showed up with like a baggy, but then I went to Target and
got myself the proper clear purse because you were not cool if you just had
a baggy, right, And well, I know enough scumbags who have done
time that I called them and I said, like, what do I do?
And they said, bring quarters for the vending machines, because you're not
cool if you're a visitor, doesn't bring quarters and your visitor is in some
way in prison like a value. Right, Like right, here's this put
together woman showing up to visit me, and she I mean put together.
It's like, I don't even know what that sounds like, but you know,
let's just say aspirationally attractive. It's a Hollywood word for like cute but
not too cute, showing up with quarters for the vending machines. Thank you,
Sasha, wherever you may be, and you know, buying you wings
and funians and little Debby cakes. Okay, so this is really off topic,
but it was a question that came to my mind reading the book.
So the chicken wings, so did they were they like not cooked yet?
Because did you have to put them there? Or you brought no? I
know, you can't bring chicken wings. Okay, you can bring this a
clear plastic baggy and if you're cool, I suggest you go to Target and
buy one. But you could also bring in a plast back, so you
can bring wings there, Yes, in a vending machine. I know,
right. This was very surprising for me because I get my ideas about serial
killers from the same place we do TV, right, and it's it's the
same thing with police work, you know, like you I think a DNA
goes through in like five and a half seconds. It No, it does.
For an episode that someone's writing, it really digs like three years.
The backup is so intense. What did Sam do? What was his in
what years? Okay? And so excellent question who who is this man?
And what did he do? This man? And I went in to visit
and also, yes, I was extremely surprised that there were microwaves for the
wings you could buy in the vending machines, but only the visitors can use
the microwaves. Okay, okay, I don't want to get bogged down in
chicken wings. Get to the killing, No, But it was like,
I'll get to the killings right now, because I mean, this is the
point where the killings started to like pour forth. But I was expecting like
the phone and the glass and the whole thing, and no, I was
in the family and visiting room, like you know with convicts, and their
babies right now, and and and a giant section for legos, like for
the kids to play, Like you could give this man a hug. Oh
yeah, I hugged him. But he was a serial killer, Like you,
weren't you scared that he might like what if he was like, oh
good, I have access to a woman. Well he planned, he planned
that I'd be his last victim. I mean, he told me as much,
and I could. But also I know how to talk to people,
like if you just take if you just take all the weirdness out, like
the serial killing weirdness, but forget a forget about a downfalls and the serial
killing and the African adoptions and all the rest of it. You know,
every single thing is just being present in the moment. And what I did
was I remember the names of the guards right and ask them about their kids.
And I was always in the same place because they're always recording. Everything
I ever did with Sam was recorded. And but I felt like I could
calculate there were this many meters between me and the guard, and how long
does it take to strangle someone? Because the thing is that, to answer
your questions, Sam was a sexual strangler. Sam could Samuel little like sex
for him, with strangulation to the point of death and as long and painful
as you could possibly make it. Like he would give CPR to his victims
to bring them back, just to put them down again because and what it
was like, and that would be you know, I mean what year was
he doing these killings in Los Angeles? Well, Los Angeles was what he
called his killing fields. And that is because in the eighties here in Los
Angeles a number of things happened, crack happened. We have the first swat
team in the nation. So all of a sudden, after the Watts riots
in the sixties, you know, there are tanks in the streets of a
city. And that was the first time paramilitary tactics I've been used. So
there were far more, like far steeper sentences for drugs used in minority communities.
It left an entire population of women with their asses hanging out on Figaro
Street not knowing what to do, and they were the easiest targets. So
Sam started in seventy one. His last murder was two thousand and five.
Wow. Yeah, he had a really successful and long career if you want
to look at it, though, said like over ninety victims, right,
so ninety three confessions and those were those were not all mine. I you
know, like I got him talking, I kept him talking. I observed
the entire judicial process that was happening. He was not my only, my
only subject in this book, but you know, certainly a very impactful one.
And you know, so there were ninety three confessions, and I happened
to I just happened to land in the middle of this federal investigation. Like
I was, like, I got the underreported serial killer. Well, I
guess what, You're not the only one. There was also a cowboy.
There is also a Texas ranger who is six three six seven in his hat
who is getting these confessions out of Sam and is supposedly, like you know,
the serial killer whisperer in the country. They just needed a Texas case
for him to be able to start interviewing Sam. So you know, in
a way, I was observing the whole investigation. I wasn't just getting confessions
from him. But you know what he did was, you know, he
had a very trajectory that's very similar to what we're all familiar with the bundies,
the gay sies. You know, there's usually childhood, sexual trauma,
there's often traumatic brain injury. Now, get hit in the front of the
head enough times, that's where our impulse control lies, right, and born
with a certain genetic like perfect storm, right, including the ma jean,
the warrior jean, which cops also mostly have, which you know people in
the military have. But you know, pick your sides. So he was
he became obsessed with necks, you know. And he'll tell you a million
stories. Why was it was the little redhead girl in his kindergarten class.
It was, you know, who just gave him snotty looks right and was
just a bitch. And he always talked like he would do a woman voice,
you know, and just talk with such vicious bitchery. There was such
hatred there. Wow. So at one point I have two questions. One,
this is a quick side note, but you interviewed this guy, this
doctor James Fallon. So my husband, he's basically this doctor who who tested
himself, who like is famous for talking about psychopathy versus socioci sociopaths like sociopaths
versus psychopaths, and he there's like a test and he tested himself and found
out that he was a psychopath. Well know this guy, but he's not
violent, right, you could be another says I've I've actually threatened him.
I was like, I just think you'd be the best character, Like what
if you were really And I'm not saying this about doctor Fallon. He is
a phenomenal intellect and one of the most interesting interviews of my life. And
I hoped to talk to him again, but I told him, you know
what if. What happened was he was doing two different studies in his graduate
studies. He was studying, you know, the effects of Alzheimer's on the
brain, and he was using pet scans, right, and also psychopathy.
And then there was just he used his family as as a control group group,
right, And then he was like, well, one of the one
of the wrong things wound up in this pile, like one of the things
from my family wound up in the psychopath pile. And then he was like,
oh, it's me. And he went his mom and was like have
you thought this along? And they were like, yeah, well we all
kind of know there's something wrong with you. This sounds like about right,
but yeah, he's a non violent psychopathy you know, psychopathy, sociopathy.
There are ideas that they're the same thing that they're different things. Really,
the diagnosis is anti social personality disorder right, right, and that does show
up like if you're if you're scanning a brain, you're going to have way
less activity in your frontal lobe, right, which is like our executive functioning.
That's what lets us think critically and say like maybe even if you want
to kill, don't kill, right, you know, just don't kill people.
And also, you know, less less functioning in the inmangdala and the
sort of reptile brain that we have. That's you know, our fight or
flight response, you know, because they're predators, you know, it's it's
a it's a kill response to the world. So my husband interviewed doctor Fallon
as well a lot like years ago and had told me he was working on
some show and he came home and he was like, oh my gosh,
I interviewed this guy and he's so interesting, say Irvine. But he was
like, and this is before I read this part of your book. I
said, oh, there's a chapter about this doctor that I remember is the
same when you saw And he was like, oh, yeah, he's so
weird, he said. He greeted me in these like short shorts and put
out this like charcuterie board, and he's like and then he and then he
was looking at me while he was like cutting sausage, like and then I
started reading the book. I was like, John, John, I go
and I read him the thing about the charcuterie board and the sauce a sausage
of Job's like, oh my god, nothing's changed, and he goes,
you must ask her if he was wearing short shorts now. He was like,
I could basically see his balls while he was doing that. I definitely
would have probably fucking to them. I don't know, honestly. Like,
no, he was. He was like the perfect teddy bear. That's so
funny, you know. And then he took me apart. He took me
apart in that interview. You know, he said like hold out your hand,
and you know I have extreme anxiety. I know, I know that's
really hard to believe. But he's like, listen, you know everyone wants
a pet scan, right and my job here is not to psychoanalyze you.
I can, I will, I'll do it right now. But like my
job as a psychopath is to own you. So here we go. You
have extraordinarily high executive function and memory, and as a result, you are
a nervous wreck and you always will be. And I was like, just
can I have one of those sausages. I'll take a sausage now, please,
I mean, and it's absolutely the truth. And he was like,
hold at your hand, you know, for how long can you make it
not shake? And like, I gave it a shot. But the truth
is, if I hold my hand out for long enough, it'll start shake.
Because I have anxiety that's really profound. And also, you know,
I think that motivates you too, though you know, in the same way
that being a psychopath motivated James Fallon into this incredible career, right, you
know, and that is also teaching us about psychopathy. You know, I
tried to get him Sam's brain, right, well, try to get let's
take another let's take one more break, yeah, and we'll be right back.
Okay, you tried to get in Sam's brain. Yeah, I would
No, No, I tried to get his actual his actual brain. He
tried to get his brain. Oh challenge. You know it wasn't or it
shouldn't have been, except it was the middle of COVID when he died.
He died. I haven't gotten to that. December tween twenty and there were
like meat trucks at the coroner's office and I was his next of kin.
He had designated me his next of kin. No why I know, but
the plan was and he knew it. I was like, I promise you
I will like get rid of your remains in a respectful way. I'm gonna
take your brain and take it to use Irvine and also took out at Stanford
because you don't need the entire brain, just need like a little slice,
right, So I was entitled to that, But there's only so much time,
Like a body is decomposing, right, and the brain is decomposing faster
than anything else. And what they would have I was like on the phone
them. I was in the Corners parking lot with the meat trucks in my
mask, like pounding on their door, like I am entitled to this.
I'm sorry if this seems schoolish to you, but I want this brain.
Yeah, And I know. I was like, I'll take a has on
myself, but this brain needs to be stored under certain conditions. And of
course they're looking at me like are you the weirdest person ever? And then
you know what happened a year later, when it't all like played out,
they call me and they said, we're sorry. We realized that you should
have been entitled tis freaking Organs. That was that was the point, right,
you know, And but you know, you do get actually all of
his possessions, and we have done you the favor of cremating him, and
you need to come and pick up these ashes. And my ten year old
at the time now eleven, was home from school sec with like a terrible
fever, and I was like, yeah, the car, wow, get
in the car. And he was like, where are we going, ma,
And I was like, we are going to the Coroner's office. It
is an extremely interesting historical building in Los Angeles. Also, this is where
they processed dead bodies. And he was like, nice, MA, real
want to go to Jackie Cheese, real nice? And I was like,
you know what, dude, this is my job. Okay, So if
you don't want to come with me and go pick up some serial killer ashes,
you get a job. And also I'll get you some McNuggets now.
But I think they probably were surprised when I, you know, dragged my
ten year old up to the door with this sweaty, little fever hand giving
them the eye, you know, and like thank you for the ashes.
Oh my gosh, Well, what was it like like in general being a
mom and having young kids and getting obviously so wrapped up and like this is
not a nine to five job. This was probably like twenty four seventh thinking
about this, and also the intensity of the subject matter that you're dealing with
and you're you're taking on the point of view of these victims and each one.
I mean, I can't imagine what that must have been like, like
how did you how did you know I did? And your husband's job,
yeah, yeah, my husband is a touring musician, right, but this
was COVID like the middle, like I'm almost down in the book Covid hits.
My husband isn't working. He's a touring musician, right, he's a
weezer. That sounds very fancy to all of you, and it is very
very fancy. Sometimes your husband's and Duran Durant. That's not true, but
a lot of people think it is because his name is John Taylor. I
love John to a lot of people. Do It's not the same John Taylor.
Yeah, Well, you don't have to admit that. I mean,
I don't, but then sometimes people feel robbed. I felt like they can't
believe that they literally have thought that for ten years if it's news to them
that he's actually not. But yeah, you know, I actually have in
my acknowledgements. So thank you to Trevor Noah. And everyone's like Trevor Noah
because everyone like goes toy the acknowledgements. You're thinking, I'm like different,
Trevor no It is a different there's two Trevor Noah. Yes, oh,
interesting, that's hilarious. My team he worked with, My research team was
amazing. But yeah, it's a different Trevor now. But I should just
say, yeah, how many kids do you? Totally? Yeah, Trevor
Noah was really helpful. How many kids? He's been a great supporter.
I have two kids, fifteen and eleven. And what you're saying is,
what's it like to be a mom? Yeah? It was different before COVID
because all of a sudden they were making a documentary about me at that time,
about Joe Burlinger was making a documentary about my investigation process, and it's
called I'm like it's called I Think Confronting a serial Killer and it is on
all major streaming platforms right now. And all of a sudden they couldn't go
to the city, the other cities they had to go to. So I've
got two kids in the house now, I hadn't managed so that, like
they were out of the house before the interviews were happening. We have an
open floor plan. You can hear anything that's going on. So like what
was going on is I was talking to a serial killer for hours a day,
and like, you don't you really don't unless like I'm saying, you
know, meaning purpose, I would will stand on a soapbox on the corner
in downtown LA with this book and just say, please hear these victims.
See these victims. I've never felt a passion like this, but like to
move my kids around like they were a piece of furniture so they didn't have
to hear his voice, just because you know, we were just all stuck
in the house together. We had a COVID truck in our driveway. Thank
god. The COVID guy. I was like, really got along with Jovi
there playing TAGMT, you know, so it felt like, oh wow,
you know, here's sort of this incredible like enclosed creative environment. And also
I'm the you know, I'm the I'm the victim. I'm victim. One
always like to have a camera up your nose for every single second of these
conversations, you know, and and do interviews that are nine hours long.
And I mean it was, it was incredibly difficult for my family. And
I think now, so fifteen seems to be about the age that the kids
start getting into true crime. And so now my kid thinks he's cool because
I now because his mom, you know, got a serial killer to confess
that now they know, you know, now it's cool. But like,
I also have kids to comment on my Instagram, like my mom won't let
me buy your book. I mean I'm like, she's probably right, dude.
I have a fifteen year old son, and I cannot imagine him reading
this. No, I mean my kids don't read this. Yeah, they
don't read this. Yeah, but they know what I do. Yeah,
of course, you know. It's not like I'm like I'm going to,
you know, volunteer at the Red Cross or something, you know. Yeah,
I mean, you know, I work in and difficult I work with
difficult and fringe subject matter. You know, I am difficult and fringe subject
matter. I'm gonna change all my moments, change all my like bios to
that right now. So did you close to any of the victims families?
Yes, and to Sam's family, you know, like I became very close
with his niece, who is just I mean, if I could say,
like the damage that Sam did to my brain to my family, just like
I just felt like I was in the ultimate ring. You know. It
was one of the ways we connected. Like I'm a big I'm a big
fan of the fights. I was raised that way. I can talk about,
you know, pound for pound, who he thinks the best of the
world, you know, and you know, and that's how I got Sam.
By a boxer. He was a boxer, was a millweight boxer in
prison, which at the time in the fifties was you know, like a
funnel into the actual boxing world. So it was possible that he could have,
you know, been a successful boxer, except you know what I mean,
I just I can't say what I really want to say right now.
But he was a coward at the end of the day, Like he won
and won and one and the minute he lost, he got his lips split.
He was so vain that he threw his boxing gloves in the trash and
never picked him up again, and then just started picking on women. That's
when he started killing. Oh wow, yeah, And I'm just like,
really, you got your lips split, Like see this tooth. You know
how expensive this tooth is, your front tooth? You know how much it
hurts? Right now? I pressed on it like that because I got hit
in the face. I was boxing. I got hit in the face.
I just I just I rolled the wrong direction right into an elbow and had
to go to my dentist and he was like, your teeth are so expensive.
You've been hit in the face so many times, Like I had to
get a root canal and every place I know we talked about I'm just like
here, yeah, it's a big topic for us. Serial killers and teeth,
well, you know they're not unrelated. I mean seriously, they take
you know, like the human body becomes a thing they want to own,
right, So, like one thing Sam is. One thing that makes Sam
remarkable is he drew all his victims. Right, So if they had say
a gold too, which was how they just identified one of the victims in
Pascagoula, Mississippi, was that gold tooth, you know, and they were
looking for those remains and looking for that map, and they got it.
They just got it. You know. It's like it seems every month I
get to move a pin on my board where I actually have a board.
I have a map, you know, because it was like ninety three confessions,
sixty three now confirmed sixty three women? Like how many women? Is
that easy? Like you have to actually look at it? And you know,
I would say, go draw map, Go draw, you know,
and put you and put your marks on it, you know, and then
look at the thirties. Something odd that aren't you know, my I changed
them to black when they're solved. They're red when they're unsolved, you know.
And I mean, I don't know when that map will ever leave my
life, and I hope it will because I hope they close all these cases.
It's very unlikely that they'll close the entire gap. But every month there's
assault, there's a detective somewhere who cares and is fighting. So everybody needs
to go buy this book. Behold the Monster Jillian Lauren And where can we
find you on social media? And what's next for you? You want to
know it's next for me? Really yeah, I'm going to secretarial school.
Stop it now. I that was what I That was the best I could
come up with at you am last night. You know, you always have
this like I need a day job, and I'm like, I don't type
fast enough, Like I could easily get a job as an investigator. You
know that. Well, I think I may, you know, but also
like what's next for me will always be writing. But this investigation thing,
it got me where it got me where it gets you. Like, you
know, when I think when I think, oh, I could just go
write another book about anything else, Like I'm really into sports, you know,
and women's sports in particularly I think are incredibly exciting. Now women's fighting
is really exciting right now. Also, I just want to go on with
Joe Rogan and just I just want to count him. But I just want
to give him on one too. But you know, I'm like, I
could do any of these things, and what I want to do is keep
working, not on Sam Little's case forever. Like right now, I invite
all of you to read the book. Yes, and also you know there
are victims it's unsolved and more and more, you know, citizens not necessarily
you know, like or work in conjunction with law enforcement and and find people.
And you know they're they're incredible group of citizens sleuths who just you know,
they're looking at the Charlie Project and the Dope Project every day. So
like this book is my invitation to everyone to just like join join the fight,
and not necessarily like it's a fight, but join the fight for for
an equitable justice system. How about that that doesn't consider you know, certain
victims. I mean in the eighties, they would call these prostitutes. You
know, they call the murders in they were finding women and dumpsters every morning
in South LA and they would call them as an A one eighty seven on
you know, fifth and Main. It's an NHI No humans involved. Wow.
Yeah, so I'm like, there are humans involved. Like I felt
a real passion to humanize the victims in this book and also give you know,
the straight science and the details and I mean the most unbelievably creepy interviews
you could ever imagine. It's all the joy and you're doing the Lord's work.
Really, thank you, yeah, and thank you for coming. Yeah,
thank you? And do you have a website? Is a Jillian Laurens
And yes, Jillian Lauren dot com. I'm also a Jillian Lauren author on
many things and Insta. I am Jillian Lauren at Jillian Lauren uh and that
you know, and I've also been doing a TikTok my kids force me.
I was like, absolutely not, but you know that, like every post
I do that's like a missing person gets thousands of views and I'm like,
that's thousands of people that wouldn't have seen that missing and they are going to
talk to their friend, They're going to talk to their mother. They're like
somewhere it's gonna hit. And so I was like, fine, and I
do have my fifteen year old running the camera. Is that at Jillian Lauren
at Julian and Lauren. Okay, Jillian Learned author. Okay, there we
go. All right, well you TikTok, I'm Jillie, I'm Jillian,
I'm Jillian Learned author. Okay, yeah, we will find you. Thanks
so much for companies, and everybody run run to wherever you buy your books
books and grab behold the monster. Yes, all right, by everybody letting go