WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.279 Become a patron. For just five dollars a month, you get access to 3 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:14.000 a private RSS feed where all the shows have no ADS. Twenty dollars a 4 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:18.399 month will get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:24.199 up now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin, Richard 6 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.719 Here, as you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in 7 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:32.960 person conferences around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. 8 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:37.479 EDDC Oslow will be made twenty first through the twenty fifth. Go to Ndcoslo 9 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:43.079 dot com to register. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty 10 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:49.240 first. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. NDC Porto is 11 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:53.560 happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The early bird discount for dc Porto ends 12 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:58.560 July twenty first. Go to Edcporto dot com to register and check out. 13 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:15.319 The full lineup of conferences is at NDC Conferences dot com. Welcome back to 14 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.719 dot net Rocks. This is Carl Franklin and this is Richard Campbell and we 15 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.200 are in our respective home offices. Although it doesn't sound like it, does 16 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.079 it. It sounds like we're like together in a studio that costs millions of 17 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.599 dollars. Yeah, we fool people all the time with that. Can you 18 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:34.079 remember when we used to use the phone line to synchronize our audio files? 19 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:37.280 The tels one plus one? Oh yes, the t los? Yeah. 20 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:38.959 Yeah. If we went through like a laundry list of all the gear that 21 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.560 we've had to use throughout the years, and now it's evolved, thousands of 22 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:46.640 dollars worth of gear. Two those t loses were not cheap. Yeah you 23 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.439 want to buy one? No? No thanks, all right? Last one 24 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.120 I had cooked off and went to the e waste recycler. How is Vancouver 25 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.920 this time of year, Richard? Frozen? It's like negative six. A 26 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:02.959 couple of weeks ago it was like fifty degrees fahrenheit here, and then the 27 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.640 next week it was like ten below, right, what's what the hell? 28 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.159 Hell? And California froze too, froze. Yeah, yeah, we call 29 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:16.479 that climate instability. Oh, it's terrible. Well anyway, we'll tell terrible 30 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:20.520 for you, okay for me, But man, I would wish it would 31 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:25.120 be over. Yeah, before this show comes out, I will have jetted 32 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:29.919 off to New Zealand for a few days, Ain't you lucky? I am 33 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:35.159 officiating a wedding again. Richard had a little lamb, a little ham, 34 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.680 a little spam. All right, let's get it going with better no framework? 35 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.319 All right? Man? What do you got? This came across my 36 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:54.919 desk such as it is um from somebody I think it was on Mastodon, 37 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:01.400 and it's called code made, code made dot net doing our developer dirty work. 38 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.400 What an open source of visual studio extension to clean up and simplify C 39 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.000 sharp C plus plus F sharp VBPHP, PowerShell, R, json, zam 40 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:15.360 mlshtmails as less SCSS, JavaScript and type script coding. That's a lot. 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.280 Yeah, I I have a few customers that need this badly interesting. Let's 42 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:23.240 just say that. I mean, how do you how do you? How 43 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.360 does the tool clean up code without damaging it? Oh, removing unused using 44 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:38.520 statements, sorting them, adding unspecified access modifiers, removing empty regions, adding 45 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:43.759 blank line padding, removing blank lines next to braces, just like formatting, 46 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:47.919 you know. I mean when control E control D doesn't do the trick for 47 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.560 some reason, this. This kind of thing works, and there's been you 48 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:57.199 know, tools like this um throughout the ages, but this is kind of 49 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.240 the state of the art. So I'm told I don't particularly think my code 50 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.199 needs it, but somebody did. That's what I shared it with. Means 51 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:08.360 somebody thought your code needed it. Okay, yeah, yeah. It's kind 52 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.800 of like when your friend gives you some deodorant as a yea, or you 53 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:14.719 know, hands you the pack of tick tacks, did like, yeah, 54 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:16.240 here, No, I don't want those. Yes, take as many as 55 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:21.639 you want, please, all right, my friend, that's what I got. 56 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.439 Who's talking to us? I love it. Grabbed a comment off a 57 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.920 show seventeen sixty one, the one we did with Mads back in the fall 58 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.120 of twenty twenty one, talking about c sharp ten that was right before within 59 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.800 weeks of the twenty twenty one Really did fall, didn't it? Well, 60 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.839 there was a fall. It was cold, yeah, okay, And this 61 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.040 comment comes from Maurice Peters and he says, I just wanted to respond to 62 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.120 the remark from Mads. It's great to hear the c sharp team is listening 63 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.680 to the community and they take the time to design a feature like discriminating unions 64 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:54.160 by trying to find out what it is the community actually means when they say 65 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:57.839 they want discriminating unions. And I remember this conversation, right, and we've 66 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.360 talked about exactly that. So what do you mean when you say that Mad's 67 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:04.199 ads to this remarket And I am paraphrasing, perhaps crudely, but when no 68 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:10.079 community wants to have an F sharp like discribuinating union, they should probably use 69 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.399 F sharp. Yeah, dun, dunt du Now I understand his remark, 70 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:15.800 and I would love to use F sharp at my day job as well. 71 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.000 However, it is often not feasible to switch to a different programming language. 72 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:21.759 There are lots of reasons for this, one of them being that it's hard 73 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:26.279 to attract a larger number of developers with knowledge of F sharp or any other 74 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.639 functional language for that matter. And C sharp is a very enjoyable language to 75 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:31.639 work in, So don't forget that part. I totally agree with you, 76 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:33.920 and I think we said as much on the show. Yeah, and I 77 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:39.720 think we also suggested to that if possible, you know, you can create 78 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:43.040 a class library and F sharp just to do the f sharpie things. Yeah, 79 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.319 it's still and then use that at c sharp. Your employer kind of 80 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.360 needs to know you did that, right, like somebody does have to maintain 81 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:53.040 that. It can't be only you. And a feature like discriminating unions kind 82 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.160 of is a fundamental thing. So it's gonna is, It's going to be 83 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:59.319 in everything, And so Marie wraps up. I say feature is usually associated 84 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.240 with functional languages like discriminate unions have a lot of value, for instance, 85 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:09.000 designing type driven domain models, and he plugs Scott Woslin's book Domain Modeling Made 86 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.319 Functional here. The earlier in the development cycle we are able to catch air 87 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.639 as a domain model, the cheaper it is to fix them. So I 88 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.040 guess that means as early as possible in the inner development loop if you ask 89 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:24.560 me specifically what you would like to achieve the functional programming paradigms like in c 90 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.000 sharp in general, and I like to think I'm not the only one would 91 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:31.079 like him to expand my options to explicitly enclode a domain model by exploiting the 92 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:36.000 type system and the compiler. Thanks for a great show. Yeah, well, 93 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:39.800 thank you, Maurice. I have good thoughts that I'm sure Mads will 94 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.639 contribute to them when we let him speak because currently he's tied up in a 95 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.199 closet and a copy of us to codbuy is on its way to you. 96 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:47.639 And if you'd like him copy of us to code by, write a comment 97 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.000 on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks where reread 98 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.759 every comment, and if I read on the show, we'll say your copy 99 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:59.959 mused to codebuy, and definitely follow us on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin 100 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.120 at tech hub dot social, I'm Rich Campbell at Mastodondon Social. Send us 101 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.959 that too. I know the mastadon things, it just doesn't even to be 102 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:12.720 gaining any momentum. Maybe in your world not. But I find better engagement 103 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.160 on Mastodon with my you know, one percent of my followers sure that I 104 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.519 have on Twitter, I find they are more intentive and more interested in what 105 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:24.160 I have to say. And I think Twitter is not as big a dumpster 106 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:27.600 fire as you expected, honestly when you saw the layoffs, I you know, 107 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.079 I've done enough a large scale infrastructure stuff to think if he really got 108 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.199 rid of all those guys, he's got a week. But apparently he didn't. 109 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.040 The system is stayed up. Obviously, there's funny things happening, like 110 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:44.279 getting rid of free sms. Yeah to FA. Yeah, that's a great 111 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:48.079 idea. It turns out it wasn't free. That there are questionable telcos in 112 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:55.160 the world that were running bots that would create accounts on Twitter set up MFA 113 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.319 just to collect a few cents that they would get for every text message. 114 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.959 Interesting, Well, you can always use an authenticator too, and that's that's 115 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:07.279 what you should use, and arguably should Yeah. Absolutely, I think they 116 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:09.040 would have had a better PR statement and just said, hey, we're getting 117 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:13.560 rid of SMS for authentication, should use a real authenticator rather than say, 118 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:15.920 hey, you could pay us, but if you want to send us a 119 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.519 tweet. I'm at Carl Franklin. He's at Rich Campbell. Yes we are. 120 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.720 All right, let's bring on Mad's that's who you're here for. Mads 121 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:26.319 Turguson is the program manager for the c sharp language at Microsoft and runs the 122 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.000 c sharp design meetings. Prior to joining Microsoft in two thousand and five, 123 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.639 he was an associate professor at the University of our huss Is that right? 124 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:41.080 Oh yeah, that's close enough, doing programming language research. Welcome back. 125 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.559 Can't wait to hear what you have to say. Sir, thank you. 126 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.679 It's great to be bad. I feel like this. I've been here so 127 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:48.879 many times. This would be like my second or third time or something like 128 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:54.759 that, something like I should probably count them up. There's probably a few 129 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.519 more that I was gonna. I was in Sweden not long ago, and 130 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.960 the conversation came up above just how many language designers come from Denmark. It's 131 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.000 kind of staggering. Yeah, this is your sixth show, by the way, 132 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.240 sixth oh six. Yeah, there you go. More than any other 133 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.320 language designer, more than any other Daniel language designer. Yeah, it comes 134 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.039 up a lot, and I don't know what it is that. I mean, 135 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.440 there was a whole lot of interest in programming languages and compilers all the 136 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:31.559 way back in the sixties, you know, right, we we built alcohol 137 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:37.879 compilers in Denmark. Someone like Charles Simoni worked in Denmark for a while working 138 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.080 on an alcohol compiler. Might be the herring and sour cream, don't you 139 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.120 think maybe first said not a Danish thing. I mean, we have both. 140 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.399 Yeah. I gotta wonder if it was just certain professors and I wouldn't 141 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.480 know their names, that cultivated an environment where it just sort of became known 142 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.159 as a place where you work on programming languages, and so the folks that 143 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.799 wanted to do that tended to go there. It was the best place to 144 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:03.600 do it in Maybe. Yeah, I think there's definitely something to that. 145 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.679 I mean object going to programming famously was invented in not in Denmark, but 146 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.480 in Scanning Navy in no way. Um, one of the two inventors spent 147 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:16.120 a lot of time in anymore, you know, Hush, and I bumped 148 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.679 into him many times while I was there. So there's been a culture for 149 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:26.279 longer than I've been alive. I don't know if it's still going. Actually 150 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:30.080 I don't. I don't have I don't have that much of a connection anymore. 151 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:35.720 It's been seventeen years plus since I was there full time. But there 152 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.919 definitely was sort of like an environment in academic circles in particular. Yeah, 153 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.519 so you're not a good alumni of the university, you're not staying in touch 154 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.159 making regular visits. I would imagine they'd love to have you do a presentation 155 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:50.480 or two there. Oh, I've been back a few times. Yeah, 156 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.480 it's not that I completely lost touch. Um, but um, yeah, 157 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.080 it's probably half a decade between each visit. Well, we have had a 158 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:05.879 two half your interruption on just about everything right that too. Yeah, but 159 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:09.559 it doesn't sound like you guys have stopped at all C sharp eleven. Well 160 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.000 along in development, I see preview one of the framework dropped. I think 161 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:18.279 there was a language stuff in there as well. That's actually twelve C sharp 162 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.279 twelve sharp twelve we're talking about. See I told you twenty twenty one fell 163 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.639 Yeah. Yeah, there isn't any language stuff in the first preview, at 164 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:31.399 least as far as I'm aware. Okay, that'll start in preview two. 165 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.519 I think we'll see Um, I'm betting we'll see primary constructors and maybe a 166 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:41.360 few other things there, and then things will start seeping in. Okay, 167 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:50.960 what's a primary constructor, oh, carlitz Um. It's sort of a generalizing 168 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.360 a thing that we already did with records. You know, for a record 169 00:11:54.399 --> 00:12:00.639 in C chart, you can put um constructor primeters directly on the class name, 170 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:05.960 on the type name when you declare one, and you can also pass 171 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:13.879 along base constructor argument on the base class of a record of a record class. 172 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:16.080 But it was sort of limited to records, and in records, it's 173 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.720 very like it does a lot of things. When you do that, it 174 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.080 generates public properties for each of the parameters and so on. It's sort of 175 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:30.399 like a um it's sort of like a a way to try to mimic functional 176 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:33.799 records a little bit, a very terse way of describing you a data model 177 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.480 in one fields, and that's a little much for other classes, because you 178 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:43.320 know, records are specifically like when you want to describe very straight up data 179 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.960 with a clear structure and public properties and so on. But it can still 180 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:56.039 be very useful to to allow you to specify like a main constructor that where 181 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:01.000 the parameters are on the class itself, so that instead of doing the work 182 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:09.240 of stashing the incoming data somewhere in private fields, protected fields or whatever, 183 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.879 they're just they're just in scope. They're just capture them, just like at 184 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.600 lambic can capture things from around it. And so so there is a more 185 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.559 and more limited form of primary constructors coming out on ordinary classes and starts, 186 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.399 And we've tinkered a lot with the exact semantics and and everything, but we 187 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.639 think it's there now. We think it has a really good first design. 188 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:33.840 There are some optional things we could do to it that we haven't done yet 189 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.399 and we probably do the usual thing now that we're shipping every year and just 190 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.440 ship the basic version and see what people climber for. You know, there 191 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.000 are kinds of ideas for, Hey, you could do this that type scrip 192 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.639 does, or you could do that that F sharp does, or you could 193 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.200 do this third thing that no one does or and we're just like, yeah, 194 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.759 but here, we know this part is good, so let's ship that 195 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.440 and then let's see what you all say that the annual cadence. That must 196 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.120 be really empowering, because you know it's only a year and there will be 197 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:07.120 interim releases. Yeah, no, it's it's it's incredible. And the more 198 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.639 we we've sort of leaned into it, the more we've gotten used to it, 199 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:16.879 the more we use it. Like, um, we have many feature 200 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.519 sets that we drip out year after year because then we can take much more 201 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:28.080 fine grained quote unquote advice from from the community, from from us. It's 202 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.120 not just the people who engage before the original feature comes out, but the 203 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:37.840 people who are who are on the forefront enough that they use new features and 204 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.360 tell us when they think something is missing and give us the scenarios and so 205 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:45.200 on. But they're also self selecting, Like you used to do this back 206 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.679 in the before open source days, but it was software design reviews, Like 207 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.240 you had to get an invitation to come in and sit with the team and 208 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.440 they'd show off the features and it was a kind of a prestige sort of 209 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.639 thing, like you're just splent a lot of time to get your foot in 210 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.399 the door of an SDR in the first place. Now it's like if you 211 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:07.120 can get to GitHub and you care, you can participate. Yeah, and 212 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:11.519 it's important for us to have these different kind of circles of engagement, right. 213 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:16.720 Obviously we've had we've had this program called the MVP program for a long 214 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.080 time, and we had that that was even around when I when I joined 215 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:22.519 these many years ago, and that was a way to have a certain group 216 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:28.320 of people that you could share your secrets with and get early design advice. 217 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.159 And then yes, there were the design reviews and so on. But it's 218 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:37.480 almost like guaranteed that that will not be a representative set of people, right, 219 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.159 but you're selected from that for that kind of thing, then you are 220 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.759 special in some way. Uh yeah, I remember Steven Sudovski gave me the 221 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.799 best admistration i'd ever seen this to the RDS when they were talking about I 222 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.840 E. Nine, which was not out yet, so that was such a 223 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:54.519 the time frame forward. He says to the room, there must be one 224 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.480 hundred and fifty of us. How many of you here use bookmarks? In 225 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.519 the entire room puts up its hands. Yeah, yeah, would you like 226 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.600 to see the doctor walks in data for bookmark usage? It's two percent, 227 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:12.240 right, you're talking to the people that use the product more than anybody else. 228 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.440 That's right, and in a much different way. And I also appreciate 229 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:21.120 that, you know, you have the really two groups of people who are 230 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:27.799 who don't want to maybe change everything to use the new language features because they're 231 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:33.360 maintaining old code and that would you know the it's a cultural disruption. It's 232 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:37.360 not a backward compatibility issue. It's a cultural disruption, right. And then 233 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.759 you have the people like like me who are just on the forefront to in 234 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.840 research every day and saying, you know whoa that that's really cool. Let 235 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.519 me show everybody how that works. So, yeah, there's a there's a 236 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.840 big difference between those groups. It's definitely a span and we yeah, we 237 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.879 want to have more circles of influence, so to speak, and we can 238 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.360 now that we're so open and now that we're shipping so frequent, right, 239 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:06.400 so we get so we get people on on GitHub helping us with the things 240 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.839 we haven't done, we haven't finished yet, and we have people um who 241 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.720 are adopting new features as they come out give us feedback in time for us 242 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:22.319 to um choose the right next steps for a given feature that's already shared. 243 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.079 I appreciate that you It feels like you guys, work on a given feature 244 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.240 until you say, okay, that now has value. Let's stop getting that 245 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.400 out in the field and see how they use it before we go any further. 246 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.519 Yeah, yeah, sort of. I mean it's not it's not enough 247 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.880 to achieve minimum value necessary. We'll go until we feel like, um, 248 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:47.640 it's we'll do the things that we're we feel certain are useful. Or is 249 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.000 it you get to a point, the fork in the road where it's like 250 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.240 there's now three ways to go, it's hard to tell which one's better. 251 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.000 Maybe this is the best place to stime. Yeah, it's often that kind 252 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.720 of thing. Yeah, Or you know, it's just it's just time because 253 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.480 or isn't that long? And so we're like this as far as we got. 254 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.400 But this, this is a coherent feature in and of itself, So 255 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.480 we'll ship that because I'm sure there's features that don't get put into the product 256 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.519 that we're worked on in that year, and it's like, this is not 257 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.319 there yet, it's going to slip a cycle. We'll go, we'll work 258 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.480 on it later. Absolutely, And that was one of the one of the 259 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:22.680 harder things actually with switching to a yearly cadence is to make sure you keep 260 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.640 doing things that take longer than a year. Yeah, right right, you 261 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.319 get hooked on that. I got to deliver this every year. You're only 262 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.400 taking you're making smaller things rather than bigger things, right, Yeah. It 263 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.720 has to be fine to work on something that is not about to ship interesting, 264 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.640 Okay, it has to be. Is that more about good for the 265 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.160 career or good for the product? Like that's a that's the issue. Balance. 266 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.839 It's like if nothing made it in the latest release, that would be 267 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:49.839 a problem. Also, that's true. I yes, so, But there's 268 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:56.079 definitely a balance there where you want and I think it comes sort of on 269 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.160 its own if you look for the right mix of features in general, some 270 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.799 of them will be small, some you know, quality of life features or 271 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:11.680 medium that we can relatively quickly take from idea to product and some and then 272 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.920 but then we also just have to keep those strategic lines in mind of we 273 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.440 really want to grow the language on this front, and we might spend several 274 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:25.440 years before people see the first even the first sort of down payment on a 275 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:29.119 given feature direction. Also, I imagine you've got groups of people, like 276 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.079 you have the ADHD people working on this year's features, and you have like 277 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.720 the old time or long term people who just want to work on code every 278 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:38.920 day, working on those things that are going to come out in a couple 279 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:44.359 of years. That might be how it pans out. I don't know about 280 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.519 who has ADHD and who doesn't. I know I do, but I still 281 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.559 do work on the long term features. Yeah, but it's a personality trait 282 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.119 too to folks who are great at knock it out quick things of bols and 283 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.839 enjoy a long duration we work at the same thing every day. Yeah, 284 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.039 that is that is true to some degree. I think that, Um, 285 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:12.240 I think that we generally have a culture of also not of letting people span 286 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.799 these different kinds of don't pigeonhole them either. Yeah, like you only do 287 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.799 short stuff. Yeah, don't actively pigeonhole people for sure, Like everybody should 288 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.519 have room to grow in a direction they're not strong end and um, and 289 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.440 I think that that works out pretty well. So it's not so much that 290 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.359 oh this, oh, this feels like a Bob feature and this feels like 291 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.960 a Katie features. That's not how I want do people volunteer for features? 292 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.359 Like how does this happen? Stuff comes in on GitHub conversations go on, 293 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.680 I see you generally in them. You know, it's a sort of shepherd 294 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:51.319 of the language. But how does that happen? Well? So, um, 295 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.880 there's sort of a there's the language to sign team, and then there's 296 00:20:53.920 --> 00:21:00.000 the compiler team and other teams that also do some work language related work. 297 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:07.400 So first first there's the language designed team, and that is sort of that's 298 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.319 the thing I lead. That's I'm the only dictatorial power I like to exercises 299 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.920 that I get to decide who's on that team. Right, So that's a 300 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.960 that's a virtual team of people from different parts. They're all work at Microsoft. 301 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:26.319 It's not like a community forum. That's it. It's it's one Microsoft 302 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:33.000 employees, but they're plucked from various parts of the product and from various um 303 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:40.359 disciplines and backgrounds and generally the ideas people who are passionate about c SHARP, 304 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:45.839 who have great ideas, and who are collaborative, and who collectively represent a 305 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.480 bunch of different viewpoints. Right. So you want folks from the compiler team 306 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.759 there, and you want folks that focus on the frameworks there like that have 307 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.200 all those different views, but I also have a passion for the language. 308 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.319 Yeah, that essentially have enough passion for the language that they want to invest 309 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:07.039 essentially extracurricular time um in making CHR good and working actively on its future. 310 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.000 So um so that's where things go first, essentially, because there's so much 311 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.400 coming in on the I don't think anyone reads everything that comes in on geth 312 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.759 hubs. It's unbelievable, it's vast, right, So we um so we 313 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.839 have a system, a championing system that we've essentially stolen from academia, when 314 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:33.359 from academic conferences. Um that for a feature to reach discussion, make it 315 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.960 to discussion in in in the design team, someone on the design team needs 316 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.119 to have champion ins they like I want to discuss this. That gets it 317 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:42.880 on the agenda. Then, which we are shit, so to speak. 318 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:48.119 See if it if we have a feeling that it has legs and there's and 319 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.799 there's a path forward. There are many good features that fall at this stage 320 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.920 because we just like that that would be great, but a we don't know 321 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.799 how to do it or be um, it's well, it would be great. 322 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.519 There are these many things that are greater. So I'll have to write 323 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:08.160 so that. It can be frustrating if you're out there trying to you know, 324 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.240 get our attention. But it's just we need some kind of filtering mechanism 325 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:18.319 and this kind of everybody can scour and then champion if there's something there that 326 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:22.039 they think we should discuss, and I you know, it's not necessarily that 327 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:26.440 you want that we want that feature, it's that it warrants discussion. I 328 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.039 got championed several features that I I probably at the end of the day what 329 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:37.319 at least initially didn't feel like was the right thing. But it was bringing 330 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.079 up a good discussion that we should have. Right, but it's awful. 331 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.640 It's just as powerful to have conversations about the language shouldn't do as what the 332 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.079 language should do. Yeah, right. It does help put parameters around things. 333 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.319 I had to go look at the rosal And repository and it's like fifty 334 00:23:52.400 --> 00:24:00.359 minutes ago another issue opened and it's sixty seven thousands. At thirty eight there's 335 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:03.839 eight thousand open and twenty two thousand clothes. Is like, this is a 336 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.519 lot of stuff. Bads holy Man. Yeah, Well, the Rosslyn repo 337 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:12.480 is where the compilers built, and so we started out having our language design 338 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.680 go on in the same repo. But we we branched it out fairly early 339 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.680 on because it so we have our own repo for the lengths design parts char 340 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:27.759 B blang, right, which is which doesn't have code in it as like 341 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:33.640 the the the source in there is is all documents, right, So we 342 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:38.440 separated out the language design workstream. It was it was two kind of semi 343 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.559 separate audiences and it was a mess to kind of have it all together. 344 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.400 So when did you separate it out? Oh, it's it's a long time. 345 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.559 It must been a few years. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's 346 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.759 at least five years ago. I would say it was pretty early on. 347 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:53.640 Like we first we were on what's it called code Plex for a bit, 348 00:24:53.960 --> 00:25:00.559 ye didn't We cohabited co inhabited the Rosslyn repo for year or two. I 349 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.759 don't think it was longer than that. Okay, so that's twenty fourteen, 350 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.079 twenty fifteen. Within a couple of years you felt like you need to peel 351 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.519 it off. I don't disagree at all. And it's interesting to see. 352 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:14.759 I'm looking at them side by side, C sharp lying and Roslin and the 353 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.000 difference in the conversation, the kinds of topics of show but C sharp lying 354 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:22.079 are different. Yeah, And it's kind of like you want to be able 355 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.160 to talk about language without talking about compilers, because most people who have something 356 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.559 interesting to say about languages don't necessarily know how I shouldn't know how a compiler 357 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:34.359 works. Right. Part of doing language design, of course is is this 358 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:40.000 feasible to build? And you know it could ever be efficient? You know 359 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:41.960 that kind of thing, so you do. Some of us on the design 360 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:45.279 team do need to have compiler background, right, But that shouldn't be the 361 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.799 only thing. Yeah, right. It shouldn't be a thing that makes the 362 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.200 language design discussion less welcoming. It shouldn't be sort of a corner of a 363 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.759 compiler place. So that so this works really well that it means that people 364 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.599 can come in with much more of a user perspect on the thing. Yeah, 365 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.039 and al and just to pure language prospective, like I suspect some big 366 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.079 ideas come out of here that turn into this would be really hard to do, 367 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.920 but does this showed up value that it might be worth taking it on. 368 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.519 Where As soon as you get to boy, that's gonna be tough on 369 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.039 local piler. A lot of stuff's going to think yeah, yeah, and 370 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.319 you you don't want a bunch of people saying no, you want to at 371 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:25.279 least you want to balance it with another bunch of people saying but wait, 372 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.480 yeah, so yeah, having having breath they're both in the community and on 373 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.799 the design team is really very very useful. Nobody can kind of see all 374 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:40.519 the perspectives at once, so diversity just really is extremely useful. It spans 375 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:45.799 out like this vast space of opportunity. Well, this feels like a good 376 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.200 time to take a break because I want to dive into some of the new 377 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.920 features. But let's do that when we come back. We'll be right back 378 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:56.079 after this message. 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As a developer, do you need to 393 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:15.799 integrate PDF generation, document editing, or electronic signatures into your asp net, 394 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.200 corps or Angular applications, or you want to learn more about the differences between 395 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.559 electronic and digital signatures. Text Control is offering a free consulting service to educate 396 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.440 you about digital document processing and how text control products can help you add these 397 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.599 features to your applications. Go to text control dot com, slash contact and 398 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:44.079 request your free personal consultation. And we're back this Carl Franklin, you're listen 399 00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.440 to Dot and Rocks. That's Richard Campbell. Hey, that's Mad's Tarkusen, 400 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:52.039 the MADS scientists on the c sharp team. And we've been talking about sort 401 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.680 of the culture around how Microsoft, you know, decides what comes in what 402 00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:00.680 goes out, and let's talk about some new features. It looks like there's 403 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:07.000 a lot of really cool small features, you know, default parameters and lambdas 404 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.240 and things like that, but maybe we can talk about some of the bigger 405 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:14.039 things that you know that that people may not know about. Yeah, I 406 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:19.400 mean, we we shipped UM. We ships Chever eleven in November of twenty 407 00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:26.440 twenty two, and that's when we ship every year UM and there were there 408 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:33.200 were some very big things in there and some medium big things. A huge 409 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.640 thing that is an example of a multi year effort that that culminated in this 410 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:45.640 release is UM that the language part of it is static virtual members in interfaces. 411 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:52.640 So that's that sounds a little gnarly, um but the the the it 412 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:57.559 has several potential use cases that essentially, um are you know, new new 413 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.559 abstractive power if you will. Sure, But the one that we really doubled 414 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:04.440 down on as the first as a use case for it, the one that 415 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:11.160 kind of drove it home that we are supporting in the framework is generic math. 416 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:17.920 So the ability to have massive code code with operators and so on be 417 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:26.640 abstracted over the type that it's working on. So the from a language point 418 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.160 of view, the feature is that an interface can now have that the virtual 419 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:36.680 interface members can now be static. Right. You can say a class that 420 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:41.039 implements this interface must have this static member must have for instance, this must 421 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:47.599 have a plus operator, okay, and or it must have this static property 422 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:55.400 you know zero. So you can imagine now interface is dictating the shape not 423 00:30:55.480 --> 00:31:00.240 just of the the instances of the classes that implement them, but also the 424 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:06.400 classes themselves. And that is that's sort of the key new abstractive power, 425 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:11.599 if you will, And it has it has a number of really cool use 426 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.720 cases. One of them, of course, is what I mentioned, like 427 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.720 you can now you can abstract over math and we build a whole set of 428 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:26.160 interfaces that represent different math capabilities, essentially different sets of operators and stuff. 429 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.519 And we implemented those interfaces on all our own Mathew types, and now people 430 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:37.559 can plug into those interfaces as well with our own Mathew types and that, 431 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:45.759 you know, just imagine doing abstract composition. Like you have a matrix type, 432 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.640 and you can say matrix of T or TS element type of the matrix, 433 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.519 and now you can require that T implements the interfaces that represent the math 434 00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:00.359 operations you need in order to implement the math operations on the matrix, like 435 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:07.440 the if you want to do matrix multiplication, for instance, well the elements 436 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.119 need to be able to be added and multiplied and they they're you know, 437 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.680 if you if you want to build an identity matrix, you need to have 438 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:20.519 some representation of zeros and ones, right and so on, and and you 439 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:22.960 can now abstractor over all of that. You can say matrix of T, 440 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:30.119 where T has these capabilities and the interface is actually looks like it's implementing the 441 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.039 math, right yeah, yeah, which is weird. That's that's not an 442 00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:37.119 interface, that's a base class. That's what my brain is telling me. 443 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:42.559 I'm fighting against it. The interface isn't implementing the math. It is just 444 00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.759 specifying the math, right, and then types that implement the interface will implement 445 00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:51.720 the math. So the only it's not the interface is not playing a different 446 00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:53.440 role, and it does. It's still just like a contract, right, 447 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:59.000 But it Okay, I see I'm looking. I'm looking at them the docs, 448 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.559 and was looking at the implementation, not the interface. The interface public 449 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:07.240 static of t like midpoint is the thing that returns the midpoint of two double 450 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:15.200 numbers. But the yeah, the the interface doesn't actually do it. Yeah, 451 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.480 right, it's very cool. I mean you can have you can have 452 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.400 default implementations of these things, just that you can of other things nowadays. 453 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:30.240 But um, yeah, the main thing is that that you can, um 454 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:35.400 you can specify a contract that is about these static members. Yeah, but 455 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.839 there are other users for that as well. And one of the coolest I 456 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:42.119 think is abstract static factories. Right there, as these two design patterns, 457 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:46.720 you have static factories, which are up until now being static methods that produce 458 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.920 instances of the class they're on or a subclass or whatever they so they they 459 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:58.920 sort of they abstract over constructors in a way. They're like the details about 460 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:05.839 how this update is constructed. But that can't vary down a type hierarchy, 461 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.920 right, the static it's a method that's non virtual. Or you can have 462 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.840 abstract factories which do vary by the type of the thing they produce, but 463 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:20.199 you kind of have to have a parallel hierarchy of factories that implement the abstract 464 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:24.239 factories for some other type hierarchy, and which is like a pretty gnarly pattern 465 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:28.159 to do with this. You can just smoosh them together. You can say, 466 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:35.679 everything that implements this interface has a factory that takes these specific elements and 467 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:40.480 produces itself produces that type that implement. Right. So so an example, 468 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:50.440 for instance, is a think about an eye possible. We actually have added 469 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.199 such an interface as an eye possible as a new interface in that I possible 470 00:34:53.239 --> 00:35:01.079 of T that has a static method parts that it takes a string and returns 471 00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:06.599 a fresh instance of the type the interface is implemented on of tea. Right, 472 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:10.280 And so so all of a sudden you can say you can get the 473 00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:16.480 symmetry between the If you think serialize and de serialize, right. Serialized is 474 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:21.519 an instance method on an object of a given type, and de serialized now 475 00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:30.960 can be a static method that is that is implemented specific to the specific type 476 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.000 that it's working on, but abstracted up in the same interface. So interesting, 477 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.960 some beautiful things come out of that, and I'm I can't wait to 478 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:39.800 see what else people do with this, because this is sort of like it's 479 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:44.519 very rare that we add this kind of new abstractive power to the language, 480 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:45.639 to the very core of the language, Like it's in the run time and 481 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:51.400 everything. It's like, this is new expressiveness. This isn't just syntactic sugar 482 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:55.559 or it's jenuine new expressiveness. And it's fun to do that kind of feature. 483 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:59.280 It's fun to see it, to see what people do with it. 484 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.800 How much energy do you put into looking at what people are doing with it? 485 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.119 Like I don't know how you'd go about that, but it's surveys or 486 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.639 something just to see, you know, people experimenting with this new feature. 487 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:14.639 Well, we probably don't have enough like systematic looking for it. We sort 488 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:19.000 of say, if you do something fun with it, please tell us and 489 00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.800 then you know. And we have enough kind of interaction with customers and various 490 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:30.920 in various fura that we do get some examples of things. But but honestly, 491 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:37.280 we probably don't do enough of kind of Once the features in and it's 492 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:42.800 too late, it might still be good to do more to see is it 493 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.599 actually being used the way we thought or at all? Right, well, 494 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.599 an inster stantime to sugar you could have after the fact and later versions to 495 00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.239 make it easier to use too. I mean, we've had this conversation before, 496 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.519 but we've had abstract EDA factories for a long time, and there are 497 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:59.840 hard waste implemented. Like you said, gnarly code. Yeah, if you 498 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.039 like that pattern. We've had approaches to serialization, deserialization that exists. Like 499 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:07.679 to me, it always seems like the hardest thing about C sharp eleven is 500 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:14.360 all the C sharp six out there. That's true. There's certainly the well 501 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:15.960 we already have these patterns, so too bad for us, you know. 502 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.320 Yeah, that's often that thing that we have to think about for a language 503 00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:25.960 feature. If it fundamentally changes something that everybody already does in a certain way, 504 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.960 including our own core libraries, well it might not be worth doing. 505 00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:35.960 Even if it's like you can be like, oh I wish we had done 506 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.559 this from the start, the whole world would be better. I can't I 507 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:42.800 can't imagine how many times you say that, right, you can't get maybe 508 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.920 you can't get from here to there in any like now you'll just have the 509 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.199 old way in the new way coexisting forever. Yes, um, which is 510 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:57.440 actually a very an interesting um. Like you read that comment in the beginning 511 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:02.320 about discriminated unions, that's that's exactly like one of those challenges where well they 512 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.960 benefit in really well with what's already there. It can't be just this new 513 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:12.320 way of doing things, because then how will it work with everything that's already 514 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.840 there? Sure, so you have to think about those things. Yeah, 515 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:17.760 Because discriminated union, I mean, it's it's coming from F sharp. It's 516 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.719 about function passing like architectural. It's a different thing. So it's not going 517 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.800 to work well in C sharp. You don't want to make C sharp into 518 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.480 F sharp, right. I mean there are versions of discriminated unions that can 519 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:37.199 work well in C sharp, but I think by and large they are ones 520 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:42.320 that are very closely integrated with the data modeling capabilities we already have. They're 521 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.880 sort of like records to classes. Is like records are not a new thing. 522 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.199 There are kind of thing. They are a vary end of classes that 523 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:57.440 that can be treated as in most ways just treated as classes, but they 524 00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.519 just do some extra things for you. And it's if you can do have 525 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:06.280 that kind of relationship, then it's it becomes less of a whole new like 526 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:13.280 sublanguage and more of a fine grained choice like here, I want to do 527 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:17.039 this particular little hierarchy as a discriminated union because that would give me these these 528 00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:21.960 certain benefits. Becomes that kind of thing. It's much more, much more 529 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.800 fine grain and much more local than oh, everything should have been discriminated unions 530 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.320 instead of time. You're crazy, like you never you can't do anything about 531 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:37.280 that, right. The install base is the install base. And how often 532 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.199 do you ever introduce breaking shages in the language these days? I can't think 533 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.480 of anything. Well, we very much don't want to. Yeah, um 534 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:51.159 and but but it's funny you should bring it up, because we do. 535 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.679 We are starting to have a little bit of an itch there. Um. 536 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:59.039 So we definitely don't want to ever like remove a feature from chart or something 537 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:02.079 like even we hate the most. I'm sure there's a list of ones you'd 538 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:06.679 love to remove, except for all the loud screaming that would cur afterwards. 539 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.519 Yeah, well you'd just be breaking a bunch of code that works just fine 540 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:15.159 today. How to make people angry in one easy step, the one. 541 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:19.480 So I actually don't believe that. Well, the size of the language is 542 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.000 a bit of a problem, like we grow it, but we never shrink 543 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:27.239 it. But I don't think the solution to that is to start removing things 544 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.280 from the language. We are we are working towards. Bill Wagner recently started 545 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:38.440 a project in the Docks Repo that um that is starting to kind of very 546 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:43.519 gently point out what I probably what we call everyday c sharp you know, 547 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.719 right, pople Given that you're starting a new project and you don't have like 548 00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:52.960 a certain codebase or culture that you need to abide by, what are the 549 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:57.360 things that the ways that you should probably do things nowadays? So it's kind 550 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:01.280 of like a very soft bound to we around. You're not going to say 551 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:07.440 best practices because that's rude. Yeah, you're really going to say, hey, 552 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:12.119 here's the set of approaches that really take advantage of the what the current 553 00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.920 compiler can do for you. Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, because 554 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.440 we add new features because we think they do things better than than before. 555 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:21.400 Right, that's a whole point. So, but and we need to have 556 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:28.039 some sort of counterweight to the to the the just the sheer weight of old, 557 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.920 old advice that's out there now yeah, to say nowadays, well you 558 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:35.639 can actually do this instead. So so that I think is we're trying to 559 00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:39.719 create a much softer counterbalance to that that you can go and see, well, 560 00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:45.039 okay, I want to I'm open minded. I want to try using 561 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.960 c Chhart the best it can nowadays in my next project or my team wants 562 00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.440 to do that. Well, this is where this is a good place to 563 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.719 start. And I love that it's Bill doing that because he is everybody's granddad. 564 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:58.880 He didn't have a knacker putting his arm around your shoulder, you know, 565 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.559 metaphorically and say it's going to be okay, let's go, let's take 566 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.119 a walk and we'll figure this out. That's exactly right. Yeah, he 567 00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:13.199 has a lot of compassion for developers, like regardless of how leaning into new 568 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.920 features they are and whatnot. And he's a really good person to drive striking 569 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:22.079 that balance. But there is one other problem with the back compat, and 570 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:27.159 that is that occasionally it is when we add a new feature, it is 571 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:36.599 limited in very annoying ways because of some because of some you know, old 572 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:40.840 code could accidentally occasionally or whatever, like already look like this, right, 573 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:46.800 So we want to introduce a new keyword in a certain context or whatever, 574 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:50.840 Well, there could be available with that name or a type with that name 575 00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.639 somewhere, and we have to bend over backwards to accommodate those old cases, 576 00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:58.239 even if they're relatively rare, and so on, And it does make the 577 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.280 language more narly. And people know, I mean people know a var right 578 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:06.480 var. When we introduced var, in order not to break people, we 579 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:08.760 had to take into account the fact that somebody could have a type called var 580 00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:15.199 with lower case V right, And so the language is is more gnarly than 581 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:17.480 it would have to be. We could just have said, well, sorry, 582 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.440 this is a keyword, or in the type decision, this is a 583 00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.639 keyword. We would have broken a few people, but not very many. 584 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:28.119 Instead, what we have is this awkward rule that if you declare something called 585 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:32.559 var in scope, then the feature var is put out of like it's just 586 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:38.239 turned off, right, And that is that actually sucks for everyone, except 587 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:42.440 there are a few people don't like var who actually declare a type called var 588 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:49.920 and just so that they can a piler out, they can force for other 589 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.599 people on the team not to use a variable named var. I look on 590 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:58.599 you with the same disdain that I looked on basic programmers that had a dollar 591 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:02.679 sign in b dollar sign for variable places you know so far, Oh boy, 592 00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:07.400 that's that's great. And I think the best example in recent years is 593 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:14.159 discards. I mean you can go almost everywhere. You can use a discard 594 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.199 to mean like a throwaway variable that I assigned to and I don't care about 595 00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:22.360 the result, and that I can pass us an out parameter when I don't 596 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.360 care about the result and that kind of stuff. Right, It's just a 597 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:30.119 variable without a name that you can never get back to, except that underscore 598 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:36.280 is already a valid variable name, and so that in some places, in 599 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:43.000 some places underscore is a variable and in some places it's a discard, depending 600 00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:46.159 on whether it could have meaning before this feature was introduced. And that is 601 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.599 just nuts man, And they get it's like, what do you do in 602 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:53.760 name in something underscore like stop it? Well, actually a bunch of people 603 00:44:53.800 --> 00:45:00.159 did, because they were simulating. They were using that to signal that they 604 00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.599 wanted that was a discard. So most of the people who do actually probably 605 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.679 would be fine, yeah breaking that and just using a real discard, But 606 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:10.559 there are a few that use it for other things for whatever reasons. You 607 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:14.159 know, yeah it was there, it was available. Can you tell me 608 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.440 why somebody would use discard? I mean discard first of all, is like 609 00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:21.960 when you say underscore equals and then some function that returns something that you don't 610 00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:24.840 care about, but you could still call that function that returns something without having 611 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.719 a return value. Why do you need that discard in that case? Well, 612 00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:31.559 there are functions you can you can call a function as a statement. 613 00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:34.880 It's not everything you can do as a statement. So essentially, if you 614 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:38.679 want to do something, you want to do something that can't be a statement, 615 00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.679 so an express like you want to add two things just to see if 616 00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:46.199 your conversions work out right or whatever. I don't know why. There are 617 00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:52.119 a bunch of things that aren't allowed as statements in short, but there's also 618 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:59.239 there are things that require a variable. For instance, um, so a 619 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:04.239 couple of good samples are out parameters. We're just like, yeah, I 620 00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:06.480 don't care about this one, I do care about that one. So now 621 00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.960 you can pass a discard for one of them. And you can actually declare 622 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:15.039 a variable in place with an outbars inside step seven and whenever that was also 623 00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:19.920 deconstruction. Um. Yeah, this thing returns to two pole of four things. 624 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.800 I care about the three, but the fourth I don't care about. 625 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.840 Why do I have to declare a dummy variable and call it dummy variable to 626 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:31.320 receive that fourth thing? Why don't I just put an underscore and say to 627 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.840 say, don't care okay, right, and make it clear to anybody reading 628 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:37.559 it, I don't care about this exactly. Yeah, maybe that's it, 629 00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:42.639 Richard. It's more readable. Yeah, it's a legibility. It's a strong 630 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.280 and very brief signal that you know, don't care about this, don't care 631 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.119 about But and it's a wonderful feature and the only thing not wonderful about. 632 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.119 And I think I don't have evidence for this, but I'm sure that it 633 00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:58.039 has harmed its adoption to some degree. Is that it's so gnarly that and 634 00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:00.840 occasionally it's not a discard. When you see an underscore, it's not a 635 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:06.960 discard. And that is just navigating those rules for developers just silly. Yeah, 636 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.800 it's like the English language, all these exceptions to obvious rules. Yeah, 637 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.679 and so all this is to say, that is something where I think 638 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.320 we're we have an active discussion now and it'll you know, we'll probably get 639 00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.480 it out and get introduce it as a breaking change. I get something down 640 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:28.559 that we can have sort of like a very a very light breaking change in 641 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:34.559 those situations. Its like enough to push existing features over in a few scenarios 642 00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:37.880 as so that we don't have to do a stupid design of the new one 643 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:43.719 for the sake of everyone's future. Yeah, it's got a hurt to introduce 644 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:47.840 a new feature damaged by the past, especially if it's a past that isn't 645 00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:53.639 that important. That's a simple So if there's a simple little fix that even 646 00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:57.920 we could automatic we have to do a new feature, it'll break a few 647 00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.400 things. That's a simple fix that we can just you know, if you're 648 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.239 in an ide, we can just say, hey, this is going to 649 00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:06.639 be broken. Just want to fix all of them. You know, say, 650 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:08.159 if you have a if there's a field somewhere all called underscore, do 651 00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:10.679 you want to say this stood underscore instead? Do you want to rename this 652 00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:15.920 to to understood one rename k yeah, yeah, yeah. This is this 653 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:21.960 gets into that conversation about the tooling helping the language. Yeah, that's true. 654 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.119 But at the same time, you can't really assume that everybody's using in 655 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:29.639 a rich ide like visual studio. Yeah, you know, no, that's 656 00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:35.559 completely coore. So we so, um, we have to be and that's 657 00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:38.840 the devil is really in what is the what is an acceptable experience? Like 658 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:44.360 a what is an acceptable level of break has to be small? Um, 659 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:49.639 has to be really well justified, um, and be what is an acceptable 660 00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:53.119 experience when we do do it, and that this may all very well come 661 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.679 to nothing because there is no good sweet spot there. Um. We're just 662 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:00.199 starting to poke at it, and we'll try to write up some things and 663 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:04.719 put out in the community. It might already be be out by the time 664 00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:10.000 this publishes, and where they may not, but try to get more community 665 00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:15.559 input on what is an acceptable experience here? That doesn't really that doesn't boil 666 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:21.400 the ocean for this in some other way. Yeah, I appreciate that. 667 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:25.000 The You and I've talked a number of times both online and offline about the 668 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:30.360 whole how do we get folks using the new features? Like the side effect 669 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.960 of twenty plus years of development of a language is all that stuff and people 670 00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:37.599 you know, I joke about people coding like it's two thousand and five, 671 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:43.119 but I'm sure they're folks that are doing that. And you said many times 672 00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:49.400 like it's the tooling. We see these large language models showing up everywhere. 673 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:54.039 Do you look at leaning on that kind of technology to help people write more 674 00:49:54.079 --> 00:50:00.320 moderncy sharp? I that's it. Oh, that's an interesting kind of um 675 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:06.159 cross discipline question there. Yeah. I mean, and you're not the visual 676 00:50:06.199 --> 00:50:09.920 studio guy, but Visual Studio seventeen point five and twenty twenty two seventy point 677 00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:15.119 five, you could see some of this stuff starting to appear. Immediately, 678 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:16.960 think, are you going to help me write better C sharp? Because I'd 679 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:20.800 like that by C sharp not that good. I'd still like to ask for 680 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:25.840 it though, Yeah, and I think there's um yes, the answer is 681 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:29.599 yes, And you're already seeing it, and you see things like a pilot 682 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:35.400 and in telecode and so on, like you're already seeing AI based things creep 683 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:40.559 in and I and they're very localized, but you could definitely you will see 684 00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:45.360 this keep growing. And does it impact the language creation to think about the 685 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:52.159 tooling U Yes, to some degree, but more in a more traditional way 686 00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:54.840 like that that has nothing to do with AI per se, but we um 687 00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:01.760 it impacts us. We've certainly for many years focused on being able to create 688 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:07.000 a good idea experience, not so much able to in a can we implement 689 00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.880 a kind of sense? But is it doesn't flow naturally all the way think 690 00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:16.159 all the way back to query expressions in link, which if you think about 691 00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:21.719 it, they're based on sequel queries for their structure, right, But in 692 00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:28.480 in sequel you say select from where, and in C sharp you say from 693 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:34.039 where select. So the order of that is. The change in order is 694 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.519 so that you're introducing your variables first, so that the subsequent parts of the 695 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:43.920 query can use inteli sense. So if you're in a type of head mode, 696 00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:51.079 the things that you're projecting out at the end actually are at the end 697 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.800 by the time that you've established what they are and what they look like. 698 00:51:52.880 --> 00:52:00.480 So that was clearly driven by having a tooling perspective. Yeah, so the 699 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.800 order of things in syntax, well, you talk about regrets for language designers. 700 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.679 I bet the sequel folks load the fact that they put select ahead of 701 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.880 from you know, like they because it's so apparent. Now it's like to 702 00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.280 find the sources of data then what you request. I personally think it makes 703 00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.480 more sense. Well, it reads more like English. Yeah, and it 704 00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:23.280 also it also is from very general to very specific, right, which is 705 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:30.119 what compilers like. Yeah. One question that I have I've come across in 706 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:37.280 my travels a desire to serialize link expressions. Not the implementation, so to 707 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:42.159 speak, but just like a link expression, you know, like we were 708 00:52:42.199 --> 00:52:45.360 just talking about from X and this and select and all. That would be 709 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:49.760 very cool to turn that into some JSON, send it over the wire, 710 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.400 and then allow an API, let's say, to execute it. What do 711 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:57.599 you think about that? I think there are several instances of it out there, 712 00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:02.800 none of already. That's probably true. That's not my fault though I 713 00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:08.000 don't know. But well, the thing is if you if you take a 714 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:15.400 link query and um, you start with a data source that is I queriable 715 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:21.320 rather than innumerable, that is, in other words, that is expression tree 716 00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:23.719 based, Well, then the query does in fact become a data structure, 717 00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:30.639 right, The query itself is a data structure, um, and you so 718 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.960 that means that you can you can find a way to serialize that. Now 719 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:40.880 there's still um if the query is all written out in text, Well, 720 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:46.000 every every single part of the expression becomes part of the expression tree, and 721 00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:52.960 it's fully like scrutable whatever. The opposite of inscrutable is um an abstraction around 722 00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:58.320 it. But it kind of hurts because you have to take into account every 723 00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:02.000 data type and then every operation for you know, you know, less than 724 00:54:02.119 --> 00:54:07.639 greater than starts with events with like all of those things have to be uh, 725 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:10.199 you know, it's a great big switch statement. But yeah, I 726 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.840 didn't say it was going to be easy. You can't do it. I 727 00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:22.559 mean, you're you're basically decomposing and deconstructing a select statement and into its constituent 728 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:29.119 parts and then turning that into data. But h and of course we do 729 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:31.159 various forms. I mean, if you think about it, uh, something 730 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:37.159 like endy framework is sort of that. It's just that the serialization format if 731 00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:43.800 you will sequel right right, yeah, very good. So is there anything 732 00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:47.119 new for pattern matching coming in C sharp twelve or do people not even know 733 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:51.519 what's there in eleven? Um? I think people are still discovering what's there 734 00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:54.480 in eleven. That might be a little more in twelve. We don't have 735 00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:59.400 that much plan in twelve pound matching, But I can't talk about both briefly. 736 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah, I think that's what one of those features that C sharp programmers 737 00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:06.000 are kind of like, huh yeah, that's kind of a head scratcher. 738 00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:12.159 When do I need that? You need pattern matching when you have logic to 739 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:19.159 select which way to go? That is getting gnarly and hard to hard to 740 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:24.119 keep in your head. What what pattern matching does, and in particular switch 741 00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:29.639 statements and expressions with patterns do is that they can give you a very neat 742 00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:35.880 list of that under these circumstances. To do this under those circumstances, do 743 00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:42.199 that that is highly kind of like readable um, straight line and readable so 744 00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:47.400 um patterns? Can you know? There are various kinds of patterns. We 745 00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:51.559 only there were only a few patterns when we introduced the overall feature and C 746 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.320 seven and then we've been it's one of those features that we've just been able 747 00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:59.320 to say, Okay, what is the next what would be the next useful 748 00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.280 pattern? If you look at a language like f shark, it has a 749 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:07.480 bunch different patterns. The sort of classic example of a of a pattern in 750 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:13.559 a functional language actually is a list pattern um where you um, you match 751 00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:16.440 a list, you can match an empty list in one case, and then 752 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:22.039 you can match um a list that has an element and some remaining you know, 753 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:25.960 arrest um in another case, or various ways to match a list and 754 00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:29.880 then do different things depending on the shape of the list, very much tailored 755 00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:36.079 to linked the lists and that kind of UM classic functional approach to that UM 756 00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.159 And so for a long time we've been mulling what is the Is there like 757 00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:46.360 a non linked list specific counterpart to that that we could add to see shirt 758 00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:50.480 And that's what became list patterns into sharp eleven. So we have a really 759 00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.559 good syntax now and patterns to say to you know, you get something in 760 00:56:55.239 --> 00:56:58.960 you say, um, well it's the first element is this and the last 761 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.519 element is that, you know, grab the rest into this variable and then 762 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:08.480 execute this branch and you know, so um, it's um. It's just 763 00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:15.719 yet another way to decompose your input in a very sixcinct readable way and you 764 00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:21.239 know, check its shape and decompose it at the same time and use the 765 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:25.760 bits that you drag out of it if you if you indeed match the shape 766 00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:31.199 of the thing. I can imagine like a boolean method is sorted. Yeah, 767 00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:35.960 right, that would be a good UM A good thing to use list 768 00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:42.000 pander matching on UM rather than having to go iterate through everything and determine if 769 00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:45.119 it really is sorted. It could possibly be. Yeah, I'd have to 770 00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:49.320 think about how to how to do that, but yeah, it's it's quite 771 00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:52.960 possible that you could use that in the implementation, certainly if you're doing some 772 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:57.519 sort of divide and conqueror. I guess, I don't know. It depends 773 00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:02.360 right UM. And so for C sharp twelve, we don't have big new 774 00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:07.239 plans. We we're probably going to expand the reach of list patterns a little 775 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:12.239 bit to more kinds of types like to innumerables for instance, aren't covered today 776 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:20.480 UM, and a few other things like allowing the same variable to be used 777 00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:24.519 in multiple disjoint parts of a pattern so you can you know, it's just 778 00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:28.679 various kinds of little optimization. I don't think that's going to be a big 779 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:36.000 thing in pattern magic. Any other great big wamping features that you want to 780 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.960 lay on us for twelve UM, Well, there are some things that we 781 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:46.400 would really like to do in twelve. M One is actually the feature that 782 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:52.639 that triggered us talking about back compat again is UM is what we call field 783 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:59.320 access in auto properties. So you know, an auto property is a very 784 00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.239 tercht int act that just generates a backing field for the property and the getter 785 00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:08.880 and the setter public string food, get set Yeah exactly. Yeah. And 786 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:13.840 you know, immediately after we added that and we knew that full well, 787 00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:16.239 people will start to climber for a well, can I just do this as 788 00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.119 well? And can I just do that as well? And that is sort 789 00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:21.800 of like and we've added little things to auto properties over the years, but 790 00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:24.960 it sort of represents the fact that there's really a cliff where and there still 791 00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:29.559 is where if I wanted to just one tiny little thing, then I have 792 00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:32.440 to expand this out to a full property implementation and a private backing field that 793 00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:37.199 I'm manually declared, or like, can we smooth out that cliff? More 794 00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:43.000 so? The idea here is that if you're if you're writing a property and 795 00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:47.519 inside of an access or, you know, if you don't if an accessor 796 00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:52.679 is not implemented, then okay, that means this is an auto property and 797 00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:55.719 there's a backing field and the access is automatically implemented for you. But you 798 00:59:55.719 --> 01:00:00.360 could also actually have an access or implementation on both could you could pride an 799 01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:07.119 implementation and inside of that implementation, you can reference a generated back you know, 800 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:12.960 backing field with the with the variable name field. So we've got to 801 01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:16.840 introduce the variable name field variables all over my code. What are you doing 802 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:22.000 to me? Yeah? Yeah, so that's so that's why we need to. 803 01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.679 Um, like, if you were if you were in certain if your 804 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:34.599 domain is particle physics or agriculture or whatever, you know, field might be 805 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:37.719 a common common simulator. Yeah, oh yes, yeah, yeah, that's 806 01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:43.880 another one. Um. So that's a kind of feature that we can we 807 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:46.119 really want to introduce it. There's no like, we could try to come 808 01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:50.280 up with a more obscure keyword instead of field. But who are we helping 809 01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:52.480 if we may get super obscure. Yeah, and this is a this is 810 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:57.719 exactly the feature that it was so lovely for people to have. But there 811 01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:00.199 are a few places where you will just have to say stut field instead of 812 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:05.000 field when you're inside, when you're inside of an accessor or property act. 813 01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:09.039 Okay, and that's if you think about it. We already have value in 814 01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:13.159 properties. Value is such a variable, right and people just know that. 815 01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:15.599 Okay, if I have a fuel coal value I can I can have a 816 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:17.519 fuel coal value, that's fine. But if I want to get at the 817 01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:22.000 field, I just say this stud value instead of value because value is shadowed. 818 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:24.679 Right, it's not no mystery and it won't be mystery in the future 819 01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:29.440 either with Field if we do it the right way. The only mystery is, 820 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:32.519 you know, how can I make sure that all the places where I 821 01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:38.519 don't say this dut field today don't get broken in some kind of nasty Yeah. 822 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:42.400 So, yeah, that's one that we're really eager to do. We 823 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:45.119 wanted to do it last release, and then this particular issue came up that 824 01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:49.639 we're like, we're about to do it the wrong way. Let's not, 825 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:51.920 let's try to see if we can do it the right way. And I 826 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.840 suspected you. You only realize that fairly far down the path. It's like, 827 01:01:54.920 --> 01:01:59.039 there's going to be a right and wrong way to do something. Well, 828 01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:02.039 we knew all long, but we because we have that kind of brains, 829 01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.960 have been conditioned to work like that, So we knew very early on 830 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:07.199 that, yeah, this is gonna be a problem. But we were just 831 01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:13.519 reaching for a standard solution quote unquote, which was, well, we'll just 832 01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:20.960 contort ourselves till it fits right, Star of my Life. Yeah, all 833 01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:22.880 right, man's man, it's been great. The hours flown by and that's 834 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:27.079 that always makes for a good show. So thanks for coming back and keep 835 01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:30.360 us informed. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure as always, 836 01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:54.119 all right, and we'll see you next time on dot net rocks. Dot 837 01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:59.559 net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, 838 01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:05.199 a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, 839 01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:09.280 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 840 01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:15.559 Visit our website at dt n et r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, 841 01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:21.519 downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back 842 01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:24.960 to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make 843 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.559 sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go 844 01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:34.079 write some code. CNX time Van