WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:05.679 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. My godness, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.519 Frank, Being Frank, Frank, We're the only way to be is Frank. 3 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.519 Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to 4 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:21.160 be, is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leblona, and I'd like 5 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:25.519 to thank you for joining us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation 6 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:30.960 podcast, where no conversation is out of bounds and all points of view are 7 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:34.240 welcome. We go live to tape, and I always give you the date 8 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.640 so you have some context and some relevance to our conversation. It is the 9 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:45.159 second of May twenty twenty four. Am old enough to remember when college protests 10 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:50.799 against America's involvement in the Vietnam War had a lasting effect on the outcome of 11 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.640 that war. I also remember the disastrous effect that resulted when a heavy handed 12 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:03.320 response to a mostly peaceful protest on one such campus resulted in the death of 13 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:07.959 four innocent students. As of today's taping, we find ourselves in an eerily 14 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:15.040 similar situation with protests royal and college campuses, both public and private, from 15 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:19.680 coast to coast, with the crux of their mission to end israel siege of 16 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:25.719 Gaza and the creation of an independent Palestine. Some have been peaceful, others 17 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:30.719 not so much. At Columbia University in New York, a private university and 18 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:36.560 keeping with its tradition, perhaps the epicenter of the protests, a mostly peaceful, 19 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:41.920 tense city sleep in turned violent when students and, according to the NYPD, 20 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:49.920 outside professional agitators violently occupied the legendary Hamilton Hall. Eventually, at the 21 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:55.200 request of the university, the NYPD did what it often does best and cleared 22 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.799 the building in most of the campus within a few hours. It has been 23 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.040 reported that over three hundred people were arrested. Protests also turn violent in other 24 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.560 campuses throughout the country, producing similar results. In fact, in the early 25 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.280 morning hours before this taping, police authorities moved in great force to break up 26 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:22.280 the encampment. At UCLA and the university at which i am an adjunct professor. 27 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:29.719 Fordham University also experienced a blockade and the removal of some students. But 28 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.800 will it end here? Should it end here? Do they have the right 29 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:38.000 to be there? Are the demands reasonable and doable? Do they have the 30 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.919 same moral high ground as the students that came before them? Are they being 31 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:47.560 duped by those with ulterior and less than honest motives? Does anti Semitism play 32 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:52.439 a role? Can they win? Of course? The only way to come 33 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:57.120 to at least some level of understanding for such a complex issue is through intelligent 34 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:00.120 conversation. And who better than a man who's he's been a great friend of 35 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:05.439 this program. An expert in media and the First Amendment, he's a musician, 36 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.439 blogger, and author, creator of its Real Life and Alternate History of 37 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:14.800 the Beatles. He's also my colleague at forty University. Welcome doctor Paul Levitson. 38 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.560 Paul, thank you once again for joining us. Well, I usually 39 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.280 say my pleasure to be here, and I'm always happy to talk to you, 40 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.840 Frank, as you know. But what's been going on is about the 41 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:30.360 furthest thing from a pleasure that's come along in a long time. You know, 42 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:35.319 there's so much too unpacked. I mean, just the one paragraph. 43 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:39.599 I took my list of questions basically from them, because I mean, all 44 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:45.520 of them kind of need to be answered and on some level, so let's 45 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.240 unpack one at a time as we can. Maybe the most important one, 46 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.879 especially from your perspective In mind, as well as a journalist and a college 47 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:59.759 professor. Do they have a right to be there? Do these protests have 48 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:05.159 right to exist first and on any level, Well, absolutely, they have 49 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.960 a right to exist, and they have a right to be there. But 50 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:15.199 the question of what the level is, what the nature of the protest is, 51 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:23.279 is absolutely crucial to this. The First Amendment explicitly guarantees the right of 52 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:31.279 people to peaceably assemble and assembling in the case specifically of the First Amendment, 53 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:39.120 to petition the government for a redress of grievances, which in plain English is 54 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:44.639 if you have a problem with what the United States government is doing, then 55 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:53.759 you are absolutely protected in your right to peaceably assemble to petition the government to 56 00:04:53.879 --> 00:05:00.240 change what it's doing. So, regardless of what our views are about US 57 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:09.120 as savage brutal attack on Israel that started this, and in turn Israel's incredibly 58 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:14.839 militant response to that, and we should talk about that as well, and 59 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.480 we will, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind, and I think in 60 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:25.959 the law that Americans have the right to peaceably assemble to say, well, 61 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.480 we don't want the US government to support Israel as much as it's been supporting 62 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:41.240 Israel. But the word peaceably suggests that there is an important qualification there. 63 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:47.879 You can assemble peaceably, which means, again in plain English, you can 64 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:54.560 talk about things, you can carry signs that say things, you can communicate 65 00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:01.879 things. But once you begin doing things that physical assault people, and this 66 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.319 goes beyond speech, and by the way, legally there are all kinds of 67 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:10.600 assaults. You know, if you put your hands on anyone and that person 68 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:15.480 doesn't want your hands on that person, where you are guilty of assault if 69 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.759 you do that. If you block a building, that are also going to 70 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:24.040 get to that way block because you and I know you're making the point and 71 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:26.560 getting to it. But to me, in my mind, right off the 72 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:31.079 bat, what about block k preventing others from their execution of their dearly lives? 73 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:38.439 Does that cross the line if you do anything that prevents a person from 74 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.800 doing what they are legally entitled to do, such as a student entering a 75 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.160 building, And again, there are all kinds of ways you can do that. 76 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.800 The most passive way is just blocking them from entering. More aggressive is 77 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:57.279 you push them aside. So you have to look at the specific situation. 78 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:04.399 But once it moves from communication to action, in the real physical world, 79 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:12.600 action that in some way interferes with a person's exercise of their lawful rights, 80 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:17.879 then you are doing something that's criminal and not acceptable. Now, even there, 81 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:24.600 of course, there's a whole hierarchy of assault, and you know, 82 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:32.160 blocking a building surely is not as serious as pushing someone, ripping an Israeli 83 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:39.079 flag out of someone's hands, making someone feel so uncomfortable they're afraid to be 84 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:46.360 on campus. But that's where the illegality starts. And then the question is 85 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:54.519 what is the university to do to stop that illegality, because the university also 86 00:07:54.759 --> 00:08:01.839 has a profound responsibility not only to respect the of people who want to exercise 87 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.680 their First Amendment rights, but to protect the rights of people to go about 88 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.600 their lawful business on the premises of a university. It's a perfect point to 89 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.920 make, Paul, but doesn't put universities. I keep thinking between a rock 90 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:20.600 and a hard place. And you see some of these university presidents testifying before 91 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.079 Congress, and some of the let's face it, some of the responses have 92 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:30.600 been horrendous at best. However, still considering a rock between again, using 93 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.559 the analogy of Iraq or the metaphor rock and a hard place they do have. 94 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:41.840 A university is supposed to be bastions of free speech, learning, communicating. 95 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.639 We are communications professors, so we encourage it. Yet at the same 96 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.240 time, there has to be a function within the university. They have to 97 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.440 function at the same time. And I guess it kind of brings me to 98 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.080 a point that I wanted to make, and it's the John Lewis quote of 99 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:03.360 making good trouble. Let's talk a little bit about how that line gets blurred 100 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.159 because people will say talk is cheap. Anybody can talk, We can stand 101 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:13.399 out there with bullhorns. Is it really going to be effective now? Whether 102 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.399 and I want to as we develop our conversation, talk about whether this has 103 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.639 been truly effective or not. But in the past, a lot of people 104 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:26.440 will say the only way is action, and there are many slow Martin Luther 105 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:33.200 King said words without action, without follow up or nothing. Where is the 106 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.759 difference between that and what's happening here in your mind? Well, if you 107 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.879 look at people like Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi, you know, two 108 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:50.559 of the great leaders of in affect peaceful revolution, but they also did more 109 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:56.480 than talk. They did inconvenience people. And that's why I said, first 110 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:01.759 you do need to draw the line between I mean speech on the one hand 111 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.759 and action on the other hand. But then you do have to look at 112 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:13.519 what the action is. And technically, let's just talk about a rather innocuous 113 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:20.240 example. If you have protests to standing on a lawn in a university and 114 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:28.000 that prevents other students from sitting on the lawn, Technically that's a physical violation, 115 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:35.919 but I think most reasonable people would agree that that is a reasonable form 116 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.360 of protest, you know, just standing on a lawn, not pushing anyone, 117 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.399 not making people afraid to be, you know, in that place, 118 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:50.840 not preventing people from attending classes. So you can't just say it's an either 119 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.000 or a situation. You can do that at the beginning, the either or 120 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.679 being is it speech communication or is it action. Once you get into the 121 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:05.399 action realm, you have to look at what the action is and that governs 122 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.440 what the response is. And here, I think you know you alluded to 123 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:16.480 it in your introduction. Bringing in the National Guard is almost never an appropriate 124 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:22.559 response because the National Guard are part of our military and they're you know, 125 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.639 trained to be fighting in combat, and you know, the you know, 126 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.600 in my life, and you know, in the life of anyone who remembers 127 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.720 what happened at Kent State, you know, in nineteen seventy. You know, 128 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.840 I put that right up there with the assassinations of John F. Kennedy 129 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:46.279 and Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King and right after that. The 130 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:52.480 murder of those four students by the National Guard is one of the worst things 131 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:58.799 that ever happened in American history. The only time anything justifies bringing in the 132 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.879 National Guard would be, for example, the January sixth attack on the Capitol 133 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.360 by people who were trying to overthrow the results of the election. You know, 134 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:13.840 they weren't shooting, but they were armed with other deadly weapons, and 135 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:22.279 they were literally physically attacking Congress, breaking into Congress and there. You know, 136 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:26.759 people often ask me, so, what would be a justified situation where 137 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.600 the National Guard should be brought in? That would be one, But I 138 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.480 can't think of a situation. I mean, I guess I could think of 139 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.679 a situation, but none of the situations that have happened so far on campus 140 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.200 we justified the National Guard being brought in. So but the next level going 141 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:48.559 down in terms of an extreme response to the university, is you bring in 142 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:56.159 the NYPD, etc. And the question is what kind of physical violations again, 143 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:01.840 not speech, not communication, not protected by the First Amendment, Warren't 144 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.960 bringing in the police. And there you have to look at each situation. 145 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.720 And you know, you mentioned also something that's very important. There is a 146 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:20.399 difference between peaceful protesters and outside adjectators whose sole view is to disrupt a situation 147 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:28.120 for their own political benefit on a campus or any place else. And I 148 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:33.360 think it's very important and very helpful to understand what's going on to as much 149 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:39.440 as possible find out who are these people on campus? Are they students? 150 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.919 Are they outside adjuctators? There's a huge difference there, and if there are 151 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:50.799 outside adjectators, that certainly justifies bringing in a local police force. Well, 152 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.480 you know, Paul's very interesting and it's classic of what's happening today with social 153 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.399 media too, depending on your point of view, and people make it again 154 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:05.480 the people who are in total support of the protesters, especially if they interview 155 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.480 students within and of course people have and should understand things are said from their 156 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.519 perspective, from their point of view, and many of them are refuting the 157 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:20.799 claims that there are outside sources that the media is capitalizing grabbing onto this. 158 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.200 This is another plot by the government to pull the wool over people's eyes. 159 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:33.279 This is truly a true and truly student movement led by students and some professors. 160 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:39.759 That there is some outside agitation, but it's extremely limited. Then you 161 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.600 hear Mayor Adams from the NYP and speaking for the NYPD that their intelligence says 162 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.840 so, and he produced actually a letter from Columbia that said please help us. 163 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.159 But again people would say, well that's Columbia. Of course is going 164 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.840 to say that because they want to blame it on something else besides what really 165 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:03.840 is So how do people wade through that ball? It's always a challenge. 166 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.840 There's so much is such a flood of information and from both sides, and 167 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.519 in very strong fashion. Well let me just say, you know, another 168 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.279 First Amendment issue, and not to get off on this is the threat to 169 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.159 ban TikTok. And as you know, I've said yes, yes, yeah, 170 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:26.639 the government shouldn't be talking about that. That bill should not have been 171 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:31.120 signed into law by Joe Biden. It should not have been passed by either 172 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.799 House of Congress. It shouldn't have been tucked into a completely different. The 173 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:41.840 main part of that bill that was passed and signed into law was much needed 174 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:48.399 aid for Ukraine and much needed military aid for Israel, and humanitarian aid for 175 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:54.840 the people in Gaza and military aid for Taiwan. What does any of that 176 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.639 have to do with TikTok? The only justification of it that would be if 177 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:06.840 there was evidence that the Chinese are using TikTok. The Chinese government is using 178 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.080 TikTok to spy on us. Absent such evidence, which is very different than 179 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:17.759 just concerns that people might have, that's a blatant violation of the First Amendment. 180 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:22.279 Also, so to get back to the demonstrations, you know, I 181 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:27.679 can't believe I'm hearing myself say this, but I'm glad that the NYPD made 182 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:34.840 some arrests because we'll find out pretty soon. I assume who did they arrest 183 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:40.679 students only? Okay, so then it's not true, you know what the 184 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:44.639 may of New York said is not the case. But if it turns out 185 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:52.279 that there is any outside interference that certainly raises the ante, that is something 186 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:59.080 that's going beyond the protest. That's just an outright attack on the university or 187 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:03.400 whatever. Play These outside adjectators may be going out and I do have to 188 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.559 say to my wife, you know, she has like an eye for detail, 189 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:10.200 and you know, she pointed out to me. You know, when 190 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:15.480 you look at these videos of the encampments, many of them have seem to 191 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.920 have like five, ten, fifteen green tents and they're the same green. 192 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:26.680 Yes, y UCLA also wearing white helmets all the virtually all the students. 193 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:33.079 Somebody's getting them. Why there is some organization obviously involved out top of exactly 194 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:38.279 right, And you know that basically also raises the ante. It's one thing 195 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.359 that students are on a campus, are upset about something, and they even 196 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:47.599 want to practice some civil disobedience, and you know, I think the university 197 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.960 does need to respond to that if it's physical civil disobedience, but maybe they 198 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.880 don't need to call them the police. That's a completely different situation than if 199 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:03.920 you have any outside adjectators stirring students up coming in on campus, you know, 200 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:11.279 basically inciting students who might feel a certain way politically to get violent and 201 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.119 to do things that interfere with the rights of other students or do things that 202 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:21.680 make students uncomfortable because they happen to be you know, of a certain religion 203 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.440 and like just to be clear. You know, if you think about the 204 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:29.400 protests during the Vietnam War, which I was a part of, I was 205 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:33.799 tear gassed in Washington, you know, I went on many marches and so 206 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.119 on. Sure that made supporters of the Vietnam War uncomfortable, but that's a 207 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.400 very very different thing than making I want to talk about that, you know 208 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:47.400 perfect well, it's like you read my mind. I want you keep hearing 209 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.079 the moral high ground. You know, at Columbia for example, at one 210 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.559 point, and that's sort you heard in my intro, and it's the truth. 211 00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:00.599 These student protests that royaled the country during the Vietnam War area were effective. 212 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:07.160 They were they they swayed public opinion. And then afterwards Colombia again I 213 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.720 mentioned, they have a tradition of civil disobedience, if you will, and 214 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:18.079 UH they did it in the mid eighties for apartheid against UH. I want 215 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.079 to talk a little bit about student demands down the road in more detail, 216 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:26.880 but getting to the point where these students feel they have the same moral high 217 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:34.400 ground as those who protested against the Vietnam War and those who protested against investment 218 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:40.559 in apartheid by Colombia and were and were successful at the time. Are they 219 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:45.519 analogous? Are there enough similarities? Are they the same thing to both have 220 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:52.440 equal moral high grounds in your mind? I wouldn't say equal moral high ground 221 00:19:52.720 --> 00:20:00.079 because the protests about the Vietnam War were protested against the United States government go 222 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:07.720 over to Vietnam and killing people who never raised a finger against us, let 223 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:14.000 alone attacked us or did anything. Was part of the Cold War insanity, 224 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.920 you know, in which both superpowers were armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. 225 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.680 You know, thank god, we're not quite in that situation anymore. 226 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.359 We got over it. But the Vietnam War was an undeclared war, meaning 227 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:33.480 it was a totally illegal war. And it was also a war that had 228 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.680 no reason to happen because no one attacked the United States, you know, 229 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:42.160 the Gulf of Tonkin, which was a law which we all found out was 230 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:48.759 a lot people. Remember there was a destroyer that was supposedly attacked by some 231 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.079 Vietnamese patrol boats. All bs, and we'll leave it at that. That's 232 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.240 right. This is a very different situation because, first of all, it 233 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:02.680 started as many of these protests who seem to either not care about or forgot, 234 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.480 or I don't know what their problem is. But it's not as if 235 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:11.160 Israel one day got up and said we are going to send a huge military 236 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:17.799 force into Gaza and basically level parts of Gaza. And I think it's horrible 237 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:22.319 the loss of human life there. And I'm no supporter of net and Yahoo. 238 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.680 Frankly, if I were in ISRAELI I would do the best I could 239 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:29.960 to get him out of office. He's responsible for being asleep on the job 240 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.640 or worse, because he was the person who was in charge when the Harmas 241 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:41.599 attack happened in the first place, and that Hamas attack killed a huge number 242 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:48.039 of innocent people, raped women, took hostages. You know, everyone knows 243 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.079 about that. And yet these protesters, they seem to have memories that begin 244 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.920 I don't know, maybe like sometime in December or something, making no mention 245 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:02.839 at all, or at most giving lip service to mentioning why all this started. 246 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.960 So that's why, in response to your question, these two protests are 247 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:12.319 not even remotely alike in my opinion, Again, the US and Vietnam no 248 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:19.039 reason whatsoever based on a lie, no declaration of war, wrong for a 249 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:26.720 dozen different profound reasons. As far as Israel in Gaza, I don't support 250 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:33.880 the extremity of some of what they've done there. I certainly was horrified by 251 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:41.039 the killing of people who are trying to bring food into Gaza to feed people 252 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.680 who are starving. You know, I'm horrified by all those things, and 253 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:51.279 wherey in Israel, I would be working as best I could to get the 254 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.799 Israeli government and military to do things differently. But anyone who talks about that 255 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.599 without first mentioning that none of this would started in the first place had there 256 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:10.160 not been that savage, brutal you talk about anti semitism, This goes beyond 257 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.319 anti semitism. Why do you talk about that. Yeah, let's get let's 258 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.759 get to the cross. So many people say flat out that these protests are 259 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:26.200 fueled by anti Semitism, despite the fact that many of the protests are populated 260 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.039 by Jewish students. Well, I think that there is some anti semitism there. 261 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.000 I mean, I don't know. I mean, you tell me, 262 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:40.519 surely these people don't have such poor memories that they forgot you know, what 263 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:45.480 happened in October that started this whole thing. I mean, it's as simple 264 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.279 as that, and Because of that, I have to conclude that there is 265 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.400 some anti Semitism there. And as I mentioned too when we were talking, 266 00:23:53.480 --> 00:24:02.400 you know, before this podcast conversation began, even if Fordamuniversity there was a 267 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:10.640 petition center around and the title of the petition is justice for Palestine. Okay, 268 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:14.039 I'm in favor of justice. But then when you read the petition, 269 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:18.880 all it talks about is the Israeli attack on Gaza. Is if this whole 270 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.319 thing started because one day, you know, Israel woke up and says, 271 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.920 hey, We're going to send a huge military force into Gaza. How anyone 272 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:34.240 would have the audacity to distribute a petition like that that makes no mention of 273 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:40.359 a mosque, It doesn't appear once in that petition is totally beyond me. 274 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.200 And frankly, as a member of the faculty at Fordham University, I'm outraged 275 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:52.160 as a faculty member that there would be people faculty at Fordham University whose moral 276 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:57.640 compass would be so out of whack that they could talk about what's going on 277 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:03.680 in Gaza as if somehow Israel started that. It's the equivalent of talking about, 278 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.759 oh my god, look what the United States did on D Day. 279 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.440 They just you know, let's protest against the United States sending American troops into 280 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.160 France and killing you know, Germans who were in France. Is if that's 281 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.559 the way World War two started, No, it didn't. You know, 282 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.599 it started with Pearl Harbor. And then you know, after we declared war 283 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:30.079 on Japan, Germany declared war on US. That's how it started. Well, 284 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:36.039 this is well related, and it just reminds me how it's it's become 285 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:37.440 more popular, if you will, all of a sudden, you know, 286 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:44.319 for the longest time. And we've mentioned in Fordham, it's amazing, even 287 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.200 though it's the Catholic University of New York, how many of the professors are 288 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.160 Jewish and students as well too. Well, I guess the point that I 289 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:57.240 wanted to make is that for years, you know, many academics were probably 290 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:00.359 as reel, and for a lot of it was the you know, it's 291 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.960 it's the only democratic, mostly democratic country in the Middle East, et cetera. 292 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:11.160 So there there were reasons for it. That seems to have shifted lately 293 00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:17.720 where it seems like a lot of academic pressure seems more towards the Palestinian cause 294 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:22.559 as it's presented by the students, that Israel is an occupier, that there 295 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:33.119 is apartheid, Israel does practice apartheid. Do you feel the pressure from other 296 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:38.240 academics also, and that this this kind of mood swings there is the right 297 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.480 word, But I think you know, the point that I'm trying to make 298 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.319 here is is there. It seems to have changed, And what's evidenced is 299 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:53.759 this enormous amount of student involvement, which I don't think was possible years ago. 300 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:57.000 Why now? And I think it's got to be more than just what 301 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:03.480 happened in October. Anyway, while stup rambling your thoughts, please yeah, 302 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:07.240 well, you know, just an indication of how much things have changed. 303 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:15.200 My wife and I were just commenting the other day how unhappy we are that 304 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.640 we seem to be on the same side as the Speaker of the House or 305 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:26.680 Republican who came to Columbia University and said something which I strongly disagree with, 306 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:32.599 that the National Guard should be called into Columbia. I don't think the situation 307 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:37.599 there is and was remotely the kind of thing that the National Guard should be 308 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:42.039 called in for, but as an indication of the sea change, although as 309 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:47.000 you well know, because We've talked about this many times before. I don't 310 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:55.480 agree with just about anything that Republicans usually say, and so it bothers me 311 00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:00.680 that we seem to be at least somewhat on the same side as far as 312 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:07.400 the Israeli Hamas conflict. I will say, though, you know, I 313 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.359 was very happy, and I don't know if you caught it. The President 314 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:15.079 Joe Biden today gave a very very brief statement in which he outlined well basically 315 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:22.319 what I said at the beginning of our conversation that America guarantees freedom of speech, 316 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.960 freedom to peaceably protest, but draws the line at violence and you know, 317 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:34.000 instilling fear into people by physically preventing them from doing things. So I 318 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.759 was glad to hear a Democrat say that. And I have to say, 319 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.119 as far as politics are concerned, and in terms of what you said about 320 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:47.720 there being a sea change, nonetheless, far too many Democrats in the House 321 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:52.000 of Representatives. There's a guy up here by the name of Bowman, Jamal 322 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.079 Bowman, I think his name is. I'm not going to vote for him 323 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.839 in the primary, and I'm going to vote Vlatimer. You know, another 324 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.319 Democrat, and you know basically, you know, they both have pretty good 325 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:11.720 records. But I don't like Bowman's anti Israel rhetoric because, again, as 326 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:17.799 I've been saying, he seems to have some kind of memory lapse, because 327 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:22.920 I don't hear him talking about Hamas. It's all Israel has attacked Gaza, 328 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.240 which again is not only an insult to very recent history, but an insult 329 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:36.759 to human decency to not at the very least acknowledge that the tragedy that's now 330 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:42.640 going on in Gaza was caused by Amas, plain and simple. You know, 331 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:47.920 there are a lot of inequities that I see this and funny both of 332 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.119 us, kind of young men at the Vietnam era and certainly liberal or bent. 333 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:59.440 I think is certainly fair to say, you know, but there are 334 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.039 certain things and when I see these protests that kind of rubbed me the wrong 335 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.680 way. One of the things also is that how many students are wearing masks. 336 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.640 Now, I understand in some cases pepper spray, etc. There you 337 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:17.400 get, there is tear gas, et cetera, and so it can be 338 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.799 physically necessary at times, but there are other times during interviews, et cetera, 339 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:25.960 where to me, it's simply because they want to mask their identity. 340 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:29.680 Now. One of the demands, and I do want to go over some 341 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.039 of the demands and whether they are reasonable or not, is transparency from the 342 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.279 colleges where they're protesting. Where is their college tuition going, What are the 343 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:45.200 colleges investing in and so on and so forth. So they're calling for complete 344 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.799 transparency on the part of the universities, and yet they're not transparent, often 345 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:53.319 using only their first names, often using masks. And I know why because 346 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:59.319 they could be held liable for what they're saying or accountable. I should say 347 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:03.559 it is a better they could be held accountable for what they're saying and doing. 348 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.920 Well, if you have the courage of your convictions, well then show 349 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:12.720 it. That's just kind of what's going through my mind when I'm watching all 350 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.640 these things. Your thoughts, Well, I agree with you completely. Martin 351 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:22.200 Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi didn't wear masks. We didn't wear masks in the 352 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:26.799 nineteen sixties when we protested the Vietnam War. We were proud of our protests 353 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:34.640 because we thought that we, Marley, were superior to the people who were 354 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:41.359 waging this unconstitutional war. And so yes, I wonder about that as well. 355 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.880 And look, it could just be a question of a personal cowardice, 356 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:51.519 you know, you know, you don't have to be a total hero to 357 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:55.839 protest. So I mean, I wouldn't say that's the worst thing that's happening, 358 00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.000 that they're wearing masks. But if they are trying to conceal their identity 359 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.680 is because to get back to what we were just talking about, they don't 360 00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:07.680 want it to be known that, in fact, they're not students at whatever 361 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.279 the university is. They're outside agucators, and that's why they're wearing masks. 362 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.680 That's another thing. Entirely. I assume they're not wearing masks because they're concerned 363 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:20.720 about COVID, So you know, they're wearing a mask, you know, 364 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.079 as you pointed out, to conceal their identity. But again, this is 365 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:31.519 why I think it's so important. Evidence is always the path towards resolving these 366 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.400 complex, dangerous situations. And so again it sounds odd to say this, 367 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:43.480 but I'm glad that the police took so many people into custody because we'll find 368 00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:45.680 out soon enough who are these people, you know, and it's our job 369 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:51.160 as journalists and media people to find out so pleays me to my next question, 370 00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.440 So media doing a good job with this? Has it been balanced reporting 371 00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.920 overall? I mean I've heard both things. Don't listen to the media there 372 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.319 they're just taking the line of the of the of the school and the conservatives, 373 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:06.920 and then other people saying, don't listen to the kids. They don't 374 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.799 know what they're talking about. Where do we get good information? Is the 375 00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:16.400 media doing overall a good job of reporting what's really happening? I don't know. 376 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:22.039 If I were a professor who was grading the media, i'd give them 377 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:27.519 maybe a city, you know, or at times a C plus. And 378 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:32.720 I'm not talking about Fox News, which I only watched at times to see 379 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:37.920 how, you know, horribly they mangle the truth and you know, they 380 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:45.000 regularly talk about Trump's lies as if they were true. I'm talking about MSNBC, 381 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.400 and you know, some of the people on MSNBC, for example, 382 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:52.440 like Joy Anne Reid, who I think is actually a pretty good anchor. 383 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:58.640 She has a show called The Readout. I think it's on from uh Joy 384 00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:02.359 read I think, yeah, okay, from seven take. She also seems 385 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:07.799 to have a little bit of amnesia, because I hear a lot of her 386 00:34:07.199 --> 00:34:15.480 commentary on what's going on now, starting with what Israel is now doing in 387 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:20.199 Gaza. And just to be clear, I am not saying at all that 388 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.599 that shouldn't be talked about. It should be talked about, it should be 389 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:30.719 discussed in the media, and I understand completely people who want to protest that, 390 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:37.000 but what I do find unacceptable and dangerous, and maybe it's sometimes motivated 391 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.559 by anti Semitism. I don't know what their problem is. But people, 392 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:50.039 not only the occupiers of buildings on college campuses, but some of the commentators, 393 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:55.760 some of the anchors on a generally progressive cable outfit like MSNBC, they 394 00:34:55.800 --> 00:35:00.559 also seem to be suffering from this amnesia. In contrast, for example, 395 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:06.000 Laurence O'Donell, every time he talks about what's going on there, he's on 396 00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:12.360 the ten to eleven PM show, The Last Word, he always talks about 397 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:17.480 the Hamas starting this and what Israel is doing in response. And so again 398 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.280 I am not saying that we shouldn't be talking about we shouldn't be scrutinizing this, 399 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:29.559 we shouldn't be strongly criticizing Israel and doing what we can to get them 400 00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:36.599 to figure out a better way of basically exterminating Hamas. And I know that's 401 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:39.199 not easy. I'm not a military person. I don't have the Vegast idea 402 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:45.599 what the better solution would be, but killing so many innocent people that's not 403 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:51.800 acceptable either. But if you want to discuss that, which I think is 404 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.920 always appropriate, if you want to do what you can to end that, 405 00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:01.960 you must make it clear in all fairness, in decency that Israel didn't start 406 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.960 this. And I'll add anyone who says, well, Israel did start it 407 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.840 because they came in in nineteen forty. It's apart in the second classes. 408 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.920 I Wastitians have got used, used and abused forever. Yeah, you know 409 00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:19.480 whose fault that is. It's the Arab's fault because basically, the whole idea 410 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:24.480 of Israel, which was created after the Holocaust in World War II and Britain 411 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:29.960 was trying to finally trying to do something right. They were pulling back as 412 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:32.039 a colonial power, and they said we're going to set up a state of 413 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.719 Israel. It had to be set up somewhere, and the idea was that, 414 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.320 And I know it's easier said than then. There were people who were 415 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:43.519 living there. They didn't want to move, but there's there are a huge 416 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:49.639 number of Arab Muslim countries all around Israel. Rather than trying to work something 417 00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:53.800 out to solve this problem right back there, and then in nineteen forty eight, 418 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:59.519 what did those Arab countries do. They promptly attacked Israel, militarily tried 419 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.920 to extert erminade Israel in nineteen forty eight. And that's what's been going on 420 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:08.440 ever since then. And that's why Israel, you know, is in this 421 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:15.000 position in the first place. And Hermas is just the latest expression of that 422 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.800 anti Semitic, anti Israeli hatred. And people, how did that message? 423 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.079 How did that message? It seems to have gotten lost? I agree with 424 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:30.639 you when I again, there's so little mention of Hamas, the elimination of 425 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:37.159 Hamas, the guilt of Hamas in this whole thing. How did that message 426 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:42.519 get so lost? Well, this is why I don't know the answer to 427 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.679 that. But this is why so many people say it's a resurgence of anti 428 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.480 Semitism. And you know, I'll tell you this, and I made mentioned 429 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:54.119 this to you previously a long long time ago, when I was a kid. 430 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.280 I can't remember what the reason was, but I was having a discussion 431 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.840 about some current event with my father, who was a lawyer, and at 432 00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.960 some point my father said to me, you know that might be you know, 433 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:13.119 antisemitism, whatever the issue was, and me, whatever I was, 434 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.679 I was like fourteen or fifteen years old. You know, the arrogance of 435 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:21.360 youth. Although many people think I'm still arrogant now, maybe even more so. 436 00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:23.920 But back then, I looked at my father said, Dad, come 437 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.840 on, this is not the nineteen thirties anymore. There is no antisemitism. 438 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:35.000 What do you And my father looked at me and said, you're going to 439 00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:39.440 find out that you're wrong. There's plenty of anti Semitism. It's just under 440 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:45.000 the surface, and sooner or later it's going to come out. And you 441 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.480 know, I hate to say it, he was right, it has. 442 00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.679 Well before we go to our break, Paul, we wrap up this because 443 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:54.280 we got to talk a little bit about TikTok. We teased it a little 444 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.440 bit before. I want to talk a little bit about more detail. And 445 00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:02.440 also our buddy mister Trump is with the gag order, is back in the 446 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:07.199 news as well. Going to squeeze him in. But before we'll wrap this 447 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:12.440 up, where do we go from here, Paul, I mean, do 448 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.079 they clean up the campus that they go back? Where do we go from 449 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:23.360 here? What happens now? Well, one fortunate thing in this very dangerous 450 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:32.039 situation is that we are entering summer session pretty soon, meaning the spring term 451 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:37.199 is pretty much over. So you know, if there was the best time 452 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:43.159 to have these kinds of disruption on campus, it would be when there really 453 00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:46.400 are no classes being held for a while. Summer session actually doesn't usually begin 454 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.920 until May, so we have a good couple of weeks where there's going to 455 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:58.280 be some great movement of students away from campus anyway, as they you know, 456 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.719 going on about their normal life activities. So I think that that's good. 457 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:07.639 That will lead to a good peacefulness and quiet to some extent, you 458 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:12.079 know, I will say, and I didn't get a chance to mention this 459 00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:15.559 before. I was very impressed with what Brown University did in response to the 460 00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.719 student protests there. But they said, is you know what, we're not 461 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.840 calling the police in. They said to the protesters, We're going to turn 462 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:29.840 this whole thing over to the board of trustees and let's see what their decision 463 00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:32.559 is. And I don't think they've given a decision yet. But the protesters, 464 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:37.880 at least at Brown University said okay, that's enough for us, and 465 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:44.199 they withdrew. So I do think we need to take these protesters seriously. 466 00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:46.320 I do think again, to get back to what we were talking about at 467 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:52.679 the beginning of this somewhat heated discussion, because I'm very heated about this, 468 00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:58.360 that they that whatever whoever the protesters are, they have a right to exercise 469 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:01.960 their First Amendment rights, again, as long as it's not violent. And 470 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:08.480 I think we have to encourage universities to be very judicious about when they call 471 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:14.360 the police in. You know, that's an inherently dangerous thing. I don't 472 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:20.800 like seeing armed anyone on campus, including police. And again to just underline 473 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:27.320 this point again to never call in a military operation, which is what the 474 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:34.400 National Guard are, unless it's something that's the equivalent of January sixth, where 475 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:42.639 actually the people in charge, meaning Trump and you know, the federal government, 476 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:47.000 that was one of the worst oversights in that whole horrible event. Back 477 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:52.480 then, you're listening to being Frank. My very special guest is Fordham University 478 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:59.239 media professor doctor Paul Levinson. I'm your host, Frank Leabono. We're back 479 00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:02.559 with more being Frank where the only way to be is Frank. In just 480 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:06.679 a few minutes, Please don't go anywhere. Our conversation has been great and 481 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:14.039 will continue to be so. Right after this Hudson River Radio dot com. 482 00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:19.079 Check out The angel Quest Show with psychic media and author Karen Noe. Karen 483 00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:23.679 covers spiritual topics such as near death experiences, reincarnation, life after death, 484 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:28.960 how your thoughts create your reality, creating peace on Earth, and so much 485 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:34.480 more. Check out The angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify 486 00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:39.679 or wherever you get your podcasts. Bring a dash of green into your life. 487 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:45.440 Check out the Many Shades of Green with Maxine, Margart Rubin and Malcolm 488 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.599 Berman. Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect us all. 489 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.400 Pick a shade of green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many Shades of 490 00:42:54.440 --> 00:43:00.400 Green available on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your 491 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:15.400 podcasts. Hudsonriverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frankly Intelligent Conversation podcast. 492 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.239 Thanks for sticking with us. You know I'm your host, Frank Lebona, 493 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.880 and we bring you a fresh topic every week, usually premiering on Thursday, 494 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:29.360 evenings. We stream from Hudson River Radio, located in beautiful and historic Stony 495 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.159 Point, New York. Neil Richter, I call him the mailman because he 496 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:37.599 always delivers, is our engineer. But remember, you can catch Being Frank 497 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.079 anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. That includes Apples, Spotify, iHeartRadio, 498 00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:45.519 and all the others. Being Frank is also archives, so you can listen 499 00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.159 to any program anytime you like. Find a link to Being Frank on the 500 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:54.840 Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website Hudsonriverradio dot com. Click on 501 00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:59.519 my icon for the show and you're there. Leave us a comment, and 502 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:04.960 please consider subscribing to the podcast. If you really like us, consider sharing 503 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.559 us with your family and friends. My guest is a regular contributor, forda 504 00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:14.480 media professor, author and creator of Its Real Life, an alternate history of 505 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:16.559 the Beatles, and so much more. If I keep giving you all of 506 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:21.760 his qualifications, we'll run out of time. In the program, Doctor Paul 507 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:23.840 Levinson. Paul, we talked a little bit about what was going on in 508 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:28.639 the college campuses, but it's time to change a little bit. I want 509 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:30.840 to talk a little bit about TikTok. You spoke of it. We spoke 510 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.400 it a little bit of it in the past, and you've teased it a 511 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.400 little bit in the first half of our program. I talked to it a 512 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.639 little bit about in detail and what inspired me. Also, obviously it's in 513 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:47.920 the news. Was an interesting article in the Fordham Rams newsletter written by Fordham 514 00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:52.800 and two students wrote something that was very interesting to me. The title is 515 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:59.519 what a TikTok band would mean to two gen Z Catholics by Bridget McCabe and 516 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:05.000 or an old Father, and congratulations to them for such an excellent article. 517 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:10.039 Look. The crux of it being that again they see it as a force 518 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:15.480 of good in so many ways, especially for their generation which has really kind 519 00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:20.639 of grown up with it. They describe being the first thing they do in 520 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.920 the morning and check it with their TikTok accounts. But also they took it 521 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:30.400 one step further at the Catholic University that they use it as an expression also 522 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:35.039 of their faith and share that with many other people. That's the upside we 523 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.400 see that, and of course Congress has the fear factor of the downside. 524 00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:45.800 Anyway, put it into perspective for us, Paul, there's more everything, 525 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.159 I guess has a bad side? Is there more good than bad? Tell 526 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:52.559 us? Well, first of all, I thought that was a great article, 527 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:55.000 and I was very proud to be a professor at a university that has 528 00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:00.760 such intelligent, thoughtful students, and to give you an idea of what I 529 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.239 think about this band of TikTok. And I mean this very seriously. Were 530 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.719 it not for the fact that Donald Trump, if he is re elected president, 531 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:15.119 could well destroy our democracy. Were it not for that reason, I 532 00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:22.199 would not vote again for Joe Biden. And the reason is that he signed 533 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:30.239 that bill into law threatening to ban TikTok. That's how wrong I think that 534 00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:35.719 law is. And I do think TikTok does an enormous amount of good. 535 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.559 Of course, there are things on there that some people might dislike. Of 536 00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:44.119 course, there's propaganda on there. Of course, it's used by people whose 537 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:50.480 motives God knows what they are. That's the nature of all social media. 538 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.760 And you know what, in many ways, nonetheless, social media are still 539 00:46:54.119 --> 00:47:00.840 better for our democracy than traditional media, which are gate kept in which somebody 540 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:06.400 at the top makes decisions as to what they can and can't talk about. 541 00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.519 You know that worked, okay? You know I still like television but I 542 00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:16.920 think social media have added a really important dimension to our lives by giving people, 543 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:23.079 whoever they are, and a chance to learn about things to express themselves. 544 00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:30.119 And obviously TikTok has had this effect, has opened up this avenue for 545 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:36.199 millions and millions of people. There are one hundred and seventy million Americans on 546 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:42.400 TikTok. And to ban it because there is a concern, I don't care. 547 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.679 The director of the FBI SA he's concerned about China. What does that 548 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:51.360 mean? That's how we basically Chinese owned company. So the guys goes to 549 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:53.480 China, where it goes from there? They don't know, right, I'm 550 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:57.760 concerned about a whole bunch of things. But I mean, you know, 551 00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:00.440 that's not a reason to ban something. And again, in some of these 552 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:07.199 congresspeople, including Democratic congressmen, by the way, are painfully ignorant of the 553 00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:09.760 First Amendment. I can't even remember this guy's name. I mean, our 554 00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:13.280 listeners were welcome to look it up, he said, like a couple of 555 00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:19.760 months ago. You know, this is not a First Amendment because the First 556 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:24.199 Amendment guarantees freedom of expression to the people of the United States, not to 557 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:29.800 some social app You know, that's not even here in the United States. 558 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:36.079 Clearly that person doesn't understand the First Amendment. The First Amendment guarantees the one 559 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:42.760 hundred and seventy million Americans that use it the right to express themselves there period. 560 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.800 You can't just ban a mode of communication because you're concerned about something. 561 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:52.360 So I think this was a horrible thing, and I hope it's not banned. 562 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:58.039 I would support TikTok one hundred percent if they go to the Supreme Court 563 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.599 to get them to overturn that. Again, I do know why this is 564 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:07.119 like the worst example of what's called pork barrel legislation. You have a bill 565 00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:13.599 that's giving crucial aid to Ukraine. I was delighted about that it's giving aid 566 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:20.559 to israel military fight against Hamas. I was delighted about that it's giving humanitarian 567 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.119 aid to people in God's I was delighted about that it's giving military aid to 568 00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:30.119 Taiwan that's being threatened by mainland China. I'm very happy about that. And 569 00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:36.159 that same bill they're basically depriving They're threatening to deprive one hundred and seventy million 570 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:39.400 Americans of using TikTok. No, that makes no sense at all. I 571 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.559 think it's blatantly unconstitutional. I hope it doesn't become enacted, and if it 572 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:51.719 does, I hope the Supreme Court promptly strikes it down to the outrageous violation 573 00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:55.039 of the First Amendment. That it is no I have friends who don't use 574 00:49:55.039 --> 00:50:04.159 social media, and we talk about it from time to time. Use it, 575 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.159 and I don't let it use me. And that's what I try to 576 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:14.320 explain to people sometimes that it's a tool. The tool you make things with 577 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:20.360 the tool. The tool doesn't make things with you, So to me, 578 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:24.039 it's an important tool. I be able. For example, when we're done 579 00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:28.880 here and Neil lets me know that everything is edited together, the first thing 580 00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:31.840 I'll go to is to social media tag you and friends, Hey, the 581 00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:37.679 podcast is ready. How else am I to let them know my photography? 582 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:45.480 I share my photography and also friends socially. I've reconnected often with friends who 583 00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:49.239 I would have no other means of finding and people say, well, they 584 00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:52.000 can find you too, et cetera. But I am in control of this 585 00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:57.920 media, not vice versa. And I understand for young people, and that's 586 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:02.840 a conversation we can have for another day. Some of these outlets use their 587 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:07.840 message to entice young people in not a positive way. Again, that's, 588 00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:12.800 as I said a conversation for another day. I'm talking about adult use of 589 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.119 social media, and as I said, it was something I always learned from 590 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:19.639 my father, is like, it's not the tools. What are you making 591 00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:22.320 with the tool? Social media is a tool. TikTok is a tool. 592 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.079 What am I going to do with it? How am I using it? 593 00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:30.079 And for me, I use it to my advantage. When it's not to 594 00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:35.960 my advantage, I block or don't look or scroll past. It's a pretty 595 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:40.280 simple thing. I have to say. You know why people are so afraid 596 00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:43.920 of it sometimes? Yeah, listen, I was very proud of you. 597 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.719 I can't remember what it was a couple of months ago, some like honey 598 00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:53.840 pot woman basically commented on you know, one of your posts, and you 599 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:58.079 have that very very well. I do have that. It was like two 600 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:02.840 or three months ago on Facebook you said whatever, I can't remember who she 601 00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:06.679 was was clearly like, you know, some kind of bogus account. So 602 00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.440 I think that you're you're a master already of social media. But I do 603 00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:15.039 have to say, though, one thing though, you know more seriously that 604 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:20.760 kids have rights too. And we in the United States, I think, 605 00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:25.760 are too quickly, too quick to deny the rights of people who are not 606 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:30.440 legally adult to do things. So and I'm not talking about six year olds 607 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:35.599 or four year olds. I'm talking about fourteen year olds and sixteen year olds. 608 00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:39.840 They do make up a large part of the TikTok population and good. 609 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:44.559 I think that's great. I'm not worried. You know that, you know 610 00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:46.719 bad things are going to happen to them. Again, there's no evidence of 611 00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:51.000 that at all. And I think it's great that they have a way to 612 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.440 express themselves as kids that age have never had in the past. Right, 613 00:52:55.719 --> 00:53:00.119 just one last point. We got just a few minutes, which is never 614 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:06.559 enough time to talk about our buddy, Donald J. Trump once again fighting 615 00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.840 the gag order, using the First Amendment right to free speech as his as 616 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:16.559 his crutch, as his his shield. To me, it doesn't hold water 617 00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:22.159 because it's very specific. You could talk about anything you want except this. 618 00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:25.840 And there's a reason why there's an exception. Your your thoughts un fault. 619 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.840 We'll wrap it up. Okay, Well, the courtroom has always been an 620 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:31.760 exception to the First Amendment, and we can talk about that. You know, 621 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:37.199 judges and courts have enormous power. If a lawyer says to a judge, 622 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:44.719 you know, because a judge has not basically accepted his or her objection 623 00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:46.239 to something else, and the lawyer responds, just say, you know, 624 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:51.800 you're a real jackass, your honor, that lawyer could be found in contempt 625 00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:54.079 of court and sent to jail, you know, for a night or two. 626 00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.519 So you know, we might not like it, but you know that's 627 00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:02.599 the way court to operate. And the gang Yeah, and the gag order 628 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:07.360 on Trump is just designed to get him to behave the way that the courts 629 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:13.960 insists that people who come before a magistrate and certainly being on trial, is 630 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:16.360 the way Trump is as an example of that have to behave. You're not 631 00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:22.400 allow to criticize, you know, witnesses, potential witnesses, people who are 632 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:28.880 working for the judge because that might intimidate them and distort the legal process. 633 00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:34.039 So it might seem like a violation of the First Amendment. But the First 634 00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:38.079 Amendment is not absolute. We've talked about this before. You know, you 635 00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:45.079 can't communicate about something that is going to be part of a criminal conspiracy to 636 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:51.079 murder somebody. You know that that kind of speech is not protected because it's 637 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:57.760 part of a crime. And also not permitted is a speech that disrupts legal 638 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:02.159 proceedings because it's been ruled ountless, countless times over the hundreds of years we've 639 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:08.719 had this country that it is more important to protect the sanctity and safety of 640 00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:15.599 the legal proceedings than it is to allow people to say whatever they want, 641 00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:21.719 both in the courtroom, but also outside of the courtroom as well. Doctor 642 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:23.880 Paul Levinson, we'll let that be the final word. We want to thank 643 00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:29.880 you for being frank of course, with your intelligent conversation always, Paul, 644 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:37.360 You and I could go on lot couldn't wait that I love being frank because 645 00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:42.000 it's the only way to be well. Thank you, Neil. We got 646 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:45.719 to cut that out for a promo somewhere you know. Of course, we 647 00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:50.199 offer special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give us a voice 648 00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:53.519 in their lives. We offer fresh topic every week. We work hard at 649 00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:58.400 bringing you fresh news. We try to make it topical like today's program was. 650 00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:02.519 We also have some fun and with some interesting social issues, etc. 651 00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:07.679 So you can check us out wherever you get your favorite podcast that includes Apple, 652 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:12.960 Spotify, your iHeart radio speaking all the rest. Check us out on 653 00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:16.519 Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us, leave us a comment, and 654 00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:22.119 you might also consider sharing being frank with others. Of course, I like 655 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.480 to leave you with two things. One is one a slogan, and then 656 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:28.920 some music. And that's why I also love having Paul on because I don't 657 00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.800 have to I don't have to search for any music because as a musician, 658 00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:35.639 he always brings his own music with him. We'll get to that in a 659 00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:37.920 minute, but first, here's a quote from Leonardo da Vinci that I think 660 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:47.119 you'll all appreciate. Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence. So Paul, 661 00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:50.960 what are we gonna listen to? What are we gonna close our program with? 662 00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.639 This is? This is a song called the Lama will be late this 663 00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:00.840 year and I wrote it with Ed Fox. He wrote the music, I 664 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:06.000 wrote the lyrics, but he actually came up with the title because one day 665 00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:09.639 I was over his house and we were sitting by the piano writing some songs, 666 00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:14.039 and he pointed to a newspaper and he said, is this a great 667 00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:16.840 title for a song? And basically it was the headline the Lama the Dale 668 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:22.599 Lama will be laid on his journey. This year has absolutely as how we 669 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.480 sat down we wrote this crazy song. But in a way it has relevance 670 00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:32.840 because the song is about the delay in the bringing of good tidings, which 671 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:43.519 I think, unfortunately describes our current world very accurately. Perfect for our engineer 672 00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:45.199 and Neil Richter. I'm your host, Frank Lubona. We hope you to 673 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.280 join us on our next being Frank, We're the only way to be is 674 00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:53.639 Frank in Italian, molto morde sempre. Much love always everyone. We hope 675 00:57:53.639 --> 00:58:00.199 to see you next time. Thanks Paul, Thanks Neil, See you guys. 676 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:07.280 Hey, pull pull, what's ama? What's is it a camble? 677 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:12.880 What is it? It's not camble, it's it's a person. It was 678 00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:17.719 a long time ago a distant country called to bet No he was. He 679 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:20.760 was a man with a long white bear, and every year he used to 680 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.480 come down from the snowy hills. He used to bring the kid's presents and 681 00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.880 food and flowers and everything, and everyone really had a good time. And 682 00:58:27.079 --> 00:58:30.280 but one day he disappeared. Having him nobody knows where he came again. 683 00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:35.679 But years ago I heard this old story from a from a man man. 684 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:46.719 Nobody knows what his name was. His name was Hawaiian. Yes, visiting 685 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:52.360 volcaps in the studio, somebody you know play a tape on the machine that 686 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:54.840 was able to work specially machine. And when he played the tape to heard 687 00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:59.039 the story about the lama. But how did the story going. Well, 688 00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:02.079 I'll play a tape for off right now we're just here'll go. Here's it 689 00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:10.639 takes children? Don't you know that time you've been waiting a day for the 690 00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:24.599 sun comes outside it he's the mold load and people love cut such long time 691 00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:39.840 I seen flo be a come. Maybe you don't want any more? Alma 692 00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:54.159 will waiting this year? The lama will be late this year he's been heaven. 693 00:59:54.320 --> 01:00:25.199 No ways say wait will be rain next year? After doing those the 694 01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:43.880 snakes they have wait this year it's time running again. It's not round time. 695 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:52.599 Maybe that's some next week. Let's just keep on spending to let you 696 01:00:52.880 --> 01:01:13.280 wait for his man to the loma will be night mess you spend. I 697 01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:45.559 know where the stay you, I said, said my man go stas men 698 01:01:52.480 --> 01:02:16.079 going to bolsh. Love more likes you, yes here love more. We 699 01:02:16.599 --> 01:03:23.000 like this, Yes you love lives like lass that masses like last from Living 700 01:03:45.360 --> 01:05:09.960 Wife, Anything Right sp Hudson River Radio dot com