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Love Talk Radio. Welcome to Open
Minds Radio with your host Alejandro Rojash.

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Hello, everybody, it's good to
be back. It's Alejandro Rojas and you

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are listening to Open Minds Radio and
I'm putting in the chat right here.

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It's sweet now that we have our
website up and everything, it's a one

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stop shop. In order to listen
to the radio. In order to watch

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the radio over stream, all you
have to do is go to openmind dot

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tv Slash Radio. We're actually just
go to openminds dot tv and click on

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the radio link. So here is
where you can see video. Because many

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people were asking last week, how
can we see the video? How can

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we see the video? And the
video wasn't working last week so you couldn't,

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but now you can, and look
there I am and I'm so furry.

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I'm furry this week and I was
last week and you probably won't see

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this next week. It's a long
story, but uh, I don't know

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why. It makes me feel a
little bit like the guy from Pearl Jam

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and I can't remember his name,
and I'm trying hard not to do it,

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but I'm just I'm gonna have to
do my impression alone. Less buck

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the table and not a lot of
empty room. Sounds just like him,

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don't I don't call me Dotta,
not the Goby. Anyway, we have

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a great guest today. We have
Antonio Khunaus, who I have the pleasure

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Eddy Vedder or someone in the chat
got his name, thank you, that's

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who it is. Someone in the
chat got his name right. But we

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have one of my co workers here, Antonio hu Naios, and it's a

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great pleasure. I have some great
coworkers, some researchers who have been around

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for a very long time decades,
and Antonio is our guest in the studio.

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So if you're watching on the U
stream at open Minds dot tv,

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you're going to be able to see
him here and some pictures of him in

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the past with some of the researchers
he's worked with, which is just about

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everybody he got to work on the
Rockefeller Initiative. If you're a listener to

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the show, you've heard us talk
about Lawrence Rockefeller and how he was looking

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into UFOs like there he is,
and then also he was some people don't

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know you know lately, I know
Michael Sawas some others have made a big

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deal about possible back meeting at the
UN, but there were meetings in the

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UN in the past and Antonio was
there. Also. Antonio has done a

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lot of research and even written a
book on Russian UFO history and file,

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so we'll talk about that. So
it's really exciting because Antonio has been here

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researching the phenomena for a very long
time. Lots of great stuff to talk

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about, and I likeily to get
to sit a couple of cubicles away from

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him, and the cubicle in between
us is occupied by Marizio Bayata, the

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editor and the chief of the magazine
that we're going to have out us soon

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here and hopefully in the next week
or two. But Antonio and him are

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working on that, and we'll have
Marizio on the show in a couple of

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weeks. We can't have him next
week because that's Thanksgiving, although having Mauritio

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on Turkey Day might be fitting,
but we'll have him in a couple of

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weeks because he's also done a lot
of great speller research. And you can

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read both of their stories, all
of our stories that we write on our

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web page as well on the front
page of open mind dot tv. Speaking

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of our website. On the front
page. You'll also get our daily UFO

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headlines, because, as I always
emphasize, which I think is terribly interesting,

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is that UFOs are in the news
all the time. All of these

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are links to conventional news, you
know, regular newspapers out there, not

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UFO websites. Once in a while
I'll pop one of those in there when

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there's some big news on the UFO
website, but that's rare. Typically these

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are you know, papers like the
Washington Times, the Sun, biggest paper

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out there in London, or San
Francisco Chronicle had one recently. Just all

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of these papers and local papers out
there. The big news out there in

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Britain, of course, it's always
Gary McKinnon. You know. I always

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think, well, we won't be
hearing from him for a few more weeks

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or a month or something, because
something new happens. In his case.

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Of course, this was the UFO
hacker we talk about every week. Well

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now it's been nothing but bad news
for the guy. All I've been doing

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is coming on here and saying,
Garry McKinnon, he's been let down again.

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But not actually that. The MP's, the Parliament and Britain have been

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fighting over him, and they actually
are one of some of the groups in

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the Parliament want to keep him from
being extradited because of his health issues.

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I guess you sue a sidle right
now. They're afraid that if they send

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him to America, he's going to
kill himself. And I gotta say,

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come on, you know, if
that's how you people in Britain think of

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America, it's not that that.
Although American prisons I guess I shouldn't say

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they're probably pretty bad. Luckily I
wouldn't know, but I'm sure some of

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our coworkers. I wonder if Antonio
knows. We'll have to ask him and

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in hard time, but McKinnon might
get up. He might. They're debating.

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They have the weirdest departments out there. They have. The Home Office

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is one of the group of MPs
and I think they're the ones who were

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don't want mckinna to be They want
him to be extra extradited. And then

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there's Home Affairs is another group,
and they don't want him to be extradited.

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So it's kind of weird out there
in Britain. But they're fighting over

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it, so he might not go
away. Lots and lots of signings.

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Otherwise you're going to see, you
know, all over the place, some

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pictures and some UFOs in the UK
everywhere. However, I think this was

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an interesting story, and this is
because it comes from you know, where

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I used to live. But the
Balloon people, the people who hoaxed the

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balloon because they were on that wife
swap and they were the UFO family,

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they pled guilty to the Hopes chargers, So they're no longer trying to pretend

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that they were innocent and they didn't
hoax this whole thing. They've admitted,

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okay, to hoax, we're guilty, and hopefully I think that that allowed

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them to keep their children because they
were in trouble of you know, going

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to jail and having their children taken
away from them. So I guess that

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it's looking like the wife will probably
get off with not doing any time,

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but Dad might spend some time in
jail with Gary McKinnon talk and UFOs.

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Maybe he'll finally get a talk figure
out the truth behind the UFOs there and

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then finally this is a neat story, and we can talk to Antonio because

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Antonio he speaks like several different languages. He's been all over the world,

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and I know he's got some insight
into Chinese upology. But this gentleman named

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Zang Yi Fang, who's a physics
professor. He's actually we were talking about

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a convention they had over there and
China recently to talk about UFOs. This

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is a guy who put it on. But there's an interview online and it's

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Chinese and subtitled and you could read
that. It's kind of cool because he's

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really into UFOs and everything and seems
like a great guy. By the way,

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they get huge attendance at their UFO
conferences out there, So you know,

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you guys who are listening to the
show, what's coming up Laughlin the

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UFO Congress. It's not that expensive. You know, you can room meet

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with someone. I'm going to be
there, Antonio Mariccio and the whole Open

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Minds crew is going to be there, So come hang out with us,

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come see us at the UFO Congress
coming up here. Just go to Ufocongress

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dot com. It's a week long
UFO conference with all kinds of stuff going

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on. So even if you can
just come for a couple of days,

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it's worth it's definitely worth checking out. But enough about UFO news. That

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is everything fit to print. Let
us talk about let me put this out

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here again. Video not Open minds
dot TV for people who because people are

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always in the blog chop chats and
how do I look at the video?

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Well there's how you do it,
and there's chat rooms in both places.

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If you want to listen on blog
talk, you could go there, or

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if you want to come to Open
Mind to that TV and watch the video

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and chat, you can do that
too. And look, there's Antonio right

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there. I can see him in
the video. Antonio Juneos, Welcome to

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the show regularly. Pleasure Yep,
it's a pleasure to have you. So

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it's been a lot of fun.
Luckily, I've got to talk to you

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a bit about your history, but
I want to go way back at first.

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Unluckily we have lots of pictures to
show you way back, but I

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wanted to talk about how you first
got involved with this whole thing. Right

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Well, really, I became involved
already in the United States. I came

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to this country in nineteen seventy five, even though I was born in New

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York, because my father was a
Chilean diplomat and had worked at the United

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Nations. The first time that I
even became exposed to the idea of UFOs

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was, like I guess millions of
other people, I saw the Boondanican movie

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at a downtown theater in Santiago,
Chile in nineteen seventy two, like The

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Chariots of the Times of the Gods
and Spanish is called the Cuezos the Putudo

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Memories of the Future, and it
kind of blows my mind. I had

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never thought of any of these things. I was a science journalist in Chile

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back in those days, and I
was, I guess, somewhat open minded

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with regard to biropsychology and archeological mysteries, things like that I did write about,

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but not much about UFOs. I
was pretty skeptical, and so I

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understand why people are skeptic, because
I once there. It's, I guess,

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is what I called skeptical by ignorance, as opposed to you know,

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the professional debunker who yeah, yeah, because that's exactly what I was.

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I knew very little about the subject, and I thought there was all bunk

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basically. I mean, I knew
the press reported on flying saucers, even

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in Chile, but I just didn't
get much thought about it. And the

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reason I thought there was very little
to it is because I was a science

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columnist for a weekly magazine and I
was dealing with scientists all the time on

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various you know, physicists, astronomers, you name it, and these people

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never talked about UFOs. So I
assumed that since science, if upos were

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real, scientists would be all excited
and on the trail of it. Since

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they weren't, that meant that there
probably wasn't much about dufos. So that

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was my attitude. I remember reading
a book which was put by Contact Tee

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and Peru. I visited Ganimities,
which was the best seller. So I

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read it not because I was interested
in the subject, but because it was

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a popular bestseller and everybody was reading
it about and yeah, it intrigued me.

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I remember after finishing the book,
this would have been about nineteen seventy

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four, maybe going and we had
a house in the beach, my family

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in near Santiago, and I remember
looking at the skies, you know,

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looking for UFOs, and I had
a telescope. I wasn't astronomy, but

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really that was not my subject.
Then I came to the United States in

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nineteen seventy five, and I was
in New York City. Well, initially

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I lived in Miami briefly, and
then in Washington, DC. But eventually

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I moved to New York City by
seventy seven, seventy six actually, And

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in seventy seven, my brother,
one of my brothers, and she'll send

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me these newspaper clipics about a very
strange case of the it's known as the

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Corporal of this case, very strench
case happening with the military patrol in the

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north of Chile in the desert.
Which was the oddest thing because I was

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not into the subject, so why
didn't it was kind of the destiny thing.

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He sent me these clippings. And
on the same day that I received

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the clippings on the mail. Of
course, everything was done by post office

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mail back in those days. And
I lived in the East Village in New

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York City, Manhattan, and I
walked to a place called the gent Spot,

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which was a famous news stand in
that in our neighborhood, and I

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see this altern it the newspaper called
the New York Daily Planet, you know,

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like the Daily Planet, like Superman. So I'm looking at it.

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It looked pretty cool. Paper and
it had a whole section on UFOs and

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I said, oh great, I
just got this story from Chile and I

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was trying to get in roads in
journalism in the United States and this looked

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like an alternative paper you didn't need
connections to get in. So I went

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and I wrote the story basically,
and my English wasn't too good, so

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my friends had to kind of edit
the grammar. And I walked into the

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newspaper. The editor of publisher was
a guy called Mike Lackman, who I

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became friends with and later was the
author of this book called Alien Rock about

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the rock and gold Stars and UFOs, which I also worked on, but

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that was like thirty years later.
And he take a look at the article

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and he said, great publishers,
And so that became my very first year

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for article. And then did you
continue to write for him? I would

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have accept that they run out of
money, as the paper clothes now briefly,

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and I'm sure some of our listeners
may be familiar with the cases twice,

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Yeah, I wasn't familiar. Told
old at the time, wasn't all

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over the well mean, even the
National Inquiry did a big extory after time.

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It's a very fascinating case. Basically, what you had. You had

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a military patrol of seven soldiers in
the corporal and they were camping near some

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stables in the in the very remote
area of chill And near the border with

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Bolivia. It's a high desert area
and they were sleeping. It was late

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at night. But one soldier was
as a scent, you know, there's

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acting as a guard, as a
watchman, and he sees this UFO that's

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coming down near the patrol. Actually
he sees two UFOs, but the other

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one is on the other side of
the hill and that we don't know whatever

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happened to that one. But the
other one comes near the patrol. So

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he wakes up all the you know, his colleagues, and they're all scare

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because this thing is big and it's
hovering, and it's got blinking lights and

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all that. It's at night,
so they cannot see very well the details

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of the shape of it. Now
the leader is the corporal. His name

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was about this corporal, valved or
armandel Alde. He tells the soldiers that

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they should all stick together, but
later he relates that he heard like a

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voice inside his brain basically urging to
walk towards the objects. So even though

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he gives instructions to the soldiers they
should stay together, he walks towards the

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object. He disappears for about twenty
minutes. It's not clear exactly how he

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disappears. That well, the soldiers
see him walking towards the UFO and then

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he's no longer there. Then this
is where the story starts getting really strange.

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Twenty minutes later, he reappears,
but behind the patrol. Nobody saw

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him walking from the object towards the
camp. He's suddenly he's behind He's in

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a state of shock and near amniesia
and stuff and incoherent. Then the soldiers

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and then he passes out. The
soldiers. Notice two things that you know

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in the army, Well, you
probably haven't been in the army by any

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of our listeners that have, or
people know this. You have to shade

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every day. You already will be
in trouble right now. I'm more like

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I've got the career shape in the
navy. You can have beards, but

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at least in the British Navy keep
you warm on the right. I guess

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it from the old days and the
ship anyway, So he has a five

215
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day growth on his beard as a
soldier, he had shaved the previous morning.

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Then they noticed the second effect.
He had a wristwatch. You remember

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the old wristwatches with a calendar.
The clock had stopped after fifteen minutes,

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but somehow the date showed five days
in the future. So you had a

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mechanical effect in a physiological effect.
Now later about a two years, and

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now maybe more about four or five
years. It was an attempt to debunk

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the story because what happened is about
this became an Christian fundamentalist, and so

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he said some strange things and so
on. But I don't think that invalidates

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though the original story. This was
the time of the military dictatorship in Chili

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Pinochet. It was a very very
strict discipline, very Germanic type of organization,

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especially the army, and these guys
would have been lying, hoaxing,

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doing anything, they would have been
immediately with charged and nothing like that happened.

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The story eventually got out, it
was published in all the press.

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As far as I know, the
patrol were separated. They were sent to

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different regiments, which is common in
other UFOL stories. They don't want the

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people to stick together. To reinforce
their stories, and the soldiers were just

231
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doing the military service. So after
two years or whatever, one year they

232
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were back in civilian life. But
the corporal was an army man, you

233
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know, he was doing a career
and he stayed in the army. Eventually

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he became a sergeant and he retired
as a sergeant. So that that alone

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tells me that there was not and
the army I guess kept him from talking

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to the past. Yes, at
the time they did. What happened is

237
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the story got out. This is
pretty strange too. When the right after

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the incident, the patrol were going
back to the nearest town, which is

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called Putre, and from there I
guess, to go back to the viewing

240
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it and report the incident. However, the first person they met was not

241
00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:11.839
any official, but was a school
teacher well who happened to be interested in

242
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UFOs in the middle of nowhere.
I mean, this would be like if

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00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.359
you're in the you know, in
the desert in Arizona, now New Mexico,

244
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.480
somewhere in the middle of nowhere,
and the one guy they meet not

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only is and he had also had
a tape recorder. It's like everything was

246
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:30.400
I guess you know, meant to
be that way, so immediately recorded an

247
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.319
interview, which is also extraordinary because
he interviewed all the witnesses, the seven

248
00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:41.279
soldiers in the corporal, one hour
after the incident. That almost never happened,

249
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.000
right, I mean think the best
takes a couple of days or something.

250
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Here they were interviewed instantly. Well, since the guy was not in

251
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the army, he went back to
Arica, which is the main city in

252
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that area. It's a port,
and he told the local newspaper there called

253
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Aftrea the a Rica Star. Uh. They were ready to publish it,

254
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.359
but because there was the military leadership, the governor of Africa, who was

255
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.839
a military man, censored the story. However, the press was set up

256
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:14.279
with censorship at the time because everything
was being censored after the coup. This

257
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was the military coup in nineteen seventy
three, and they pressed had to go

258
00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.559
along with political stories. You know, they couldn't fight the military and that.

259
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.759
But this was a UFO story.
This was different, and this time

260
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.519
there was pressure on the government saying
enough we've been censored and everything else,

261
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.359
let us publish. And finally the
military about a month later they gave in

262
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and they allowed us. They probably
didn't mistake because by censories they just increased

263
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the value of the story. So
finally it was published front page all over

264
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.799
the main newspapers Mekula, which would
be like the New York Times. There

265
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:52.400
wasn't both frontage everywhere the whole transcript
of the interview with that Ada had done

266
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.839
with the soldiers. And that's how
I got hold of the story. Many

267
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.400
years later, I did try to
interview the Baldez, but he still in

268
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.279
the army and I could not locate
him. Another big newspaper did. They

269
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.319
got official permission from the army to
interview him, but he didn't say anything.

270
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He said, now it's not the
time to talk of what they went

271
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through the charade that he was going
to be interviewed. But maybe they told

272
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.440
him that, you know, people
like but don't say anything, or maybe

273
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he didn't want to talk. Who
knows, But nothing was obtained from that

274
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:29.480
interview. So after he was retired, he did go on TV and he

275
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did there he was interviewed though,
Oh he wasn't idea. Yeah, and

276
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did he say anything about that missing
time? Did he have any No,

277
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.640
he still doesn't remember. It's a
missing time. But it's a gaining time,

278
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you know. I mean, yeah, it's very strange. And in

279
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.359
all the years that I did the
anthology all over the world, I only

280
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:55.559
found one case that was identical,
and it happened in China in nineteen seventy

281
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five. It was almost identical.
It was also not a patrol, but

282
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there were the guards at the military
regiment. But I guess it was a

283
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.079
big location and there was a big
distance between the gate and the you know,

284
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the actual buildings. And there were
two guys and one also was disappeared,

285
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.160
and then they found him like in
the middle of the forest, and

286
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.920
he also hided growth on his beer
and everything. But the interesting thing is

287
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:23.920
neither case could have influenced the other. The seventy five case in China could

288
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.160
have not influenced about this case because
it wasn't published until the eighties. Nobody

289
00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.960
knew about that case, and there
was no way that some guys in the

290
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.359
north of Chile could have known about
the case in China that wasn't even published.

291
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:38.680
And Vicesta, the Chinese case could
have not been influenced by the Chilean

292
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:45.480
case because happened before. So that's
the only similarity that I found. So

293
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anyway, after going back now to
New York, so I published this article.

294
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Now my curiosity is you know,
triggered. Of course, I could

295
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.400
have never thought that. I said, well, now I'm going to become

296
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.880
a authologists. You know, it
didn't happen way, But I mean,

297
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.920
when you're a journalist, you deal
with all kinds of stories, right,

298
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.720
and you may become very involved or
a month for something you're doing an investigative

299
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.920
report about something else. Then you
move on to the next story and then

300
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.960
the next story. But somehow this
is a weird phenomenon, as you know,

301
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:22.640
and once your curiosity is triggered,
you know, is awoken, and

302
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.559
then you want to see, well
what is this but that compulsion, what's

303
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.440
the bottom of this? So then
a few things happened. Well, first,

304
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.119
this was the time when I remember
there was a shortly after I published

305
00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:38.599
my article on the Chilean Patrol,
I was still writing some columns for a

306
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:47.079
Chilean daily newspaper from New York,
and the blue Book files had been published,

307
00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:51.480
some of them by Brat Steiger.
I put out a pocketbook was called

308
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:55.599
Project blue Book. Since I was
still somewhat skeptic, I figured, well,

309
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.880
if anything credit if you know,
the Air Force looks like a credible

310
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.359
So this looks like a good book
to read. So I read it.

311
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.119
And even though people laugh about Blue
Book and they said it wasn't it was

312
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.400
skeptical. But on the country,
after I read the whole book, I

313
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.160
convinced me that there was definitely there
was something. Yeah, because cases,

314
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.400
Yeah, there are great cases number
one and number two. My thinking at

315
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.559
the time was, well, if
there was nothing to UFOs, why did

316
00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:26.599
the Air Force keept this project going
for twenty two years? So that was

317
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.640
one thing. Then the timing was
just right. Now we're in nineteen seventy

318
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:37.519
seven, nineteen seventy eight, and
you mentioned earlier there was the famous in

319
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.279
your introduction, there was the famous
hearing of the United Nations, right,

320
00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:48.640
and this was the only really official
event that ever happened at the United Nations.

321
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.960
There were lectures. I myself gave
the lecture there a couple of times.

322
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:57.759
But these lectures that me and many
other who fologists John Mack and in

323
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.880
the how and stand tree and how
does that happen? How do you get

324
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:06.759
to lecture at the UN? Well, there's two things. This was an

325
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.119
official event and we'll get back to
the minute, right. The others were

326
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:18.519
basically the UN Like any large organization, have employee organizations. So you get

327
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:23.680
to lecture at the UN if you're
invited by one of the employee associations and

328
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.519
it then it is run by something
called the UN Staff Recreational Council, and

329
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.359
it can be anything. Can be
a soccer game, can be a science

330
00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:40.319
fiction movie club, can be a
chess club or yoga classes whatever. So

331
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.759
obviously it doesn't have an official status. This is just that. In my

332
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:48.039
case, it was a group called
the Biopsychology Association or Society. Par Psychological

333
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:55.960
Society was run by an Egyptian translation
translator called Mohammed Ramadan and it was fascinated

334
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:02.079
by UFOs. It later changed the
name to Seats and basically they were inviting

335
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:07.839
speakers. How many people when attend
those, well, it varies. Sometimes

336
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:12.519
they were actually held at the dog
Back Hammer's called Auditorium, which is an

337
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.839
actual auditorium for several hundred people.
There was even this imposium held there in

338
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:22.319
around nineteen ninety two, I believe, and they had hundreds of people.

339
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:26.640
I lecture once there too, so
that could be attended by many people the

340
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.359
others were usually in briefing rooms.
And how many people did you get ten

341
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:37.200
twenty thousand, Well, at the
big lectures travel at the one of the

342
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.640
auditorium, I forgot how many of
god, there might have been one hundred,

343
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.440
one hundred and fifty leeve Now interesting. What's interesting of course being inside

344
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.279
the UN and this is all pre
ninety eleven, it was much easier to

345
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.480
walk in than U went and all
that, so you could invite some guests,

346
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:57.319
some outside guests. The only thing
that was particularly interesting of doing it

347
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:02.319
in the UN is like you would
would notice this on the elevators and all

348
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:07.680
that, and you could theoretically anybody
that worked on the building could attend.

349
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:11.759
They were free, so you could
have an ambassador or someone like that if

350
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.119
it was interested, you know.
But they absolutely had no official status,

351
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.279
in other words, that they didn't
go into the proceedings of the UN.

352
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:23.920
They were not transcripts made. It
was just for the employees. But some

353
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:30.759
UFO speakers they made a big pr
about it, and they made it sound

354
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.960
like they were giving you know,
big briefings and things. But that's not

355
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:41.279
true. And I'm gonna put that
in your bio briefed the UN informally,

356
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.680
you can say. Now in nineteen
seventy eight, it was a different story.

357
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:52.000
Now you had a head of state, in this case Sir Eric Gary

358
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.480
from the little island of Grenada in
the Caribbean, and this man was obsessed

359
00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:02.920
with UFOs. He had tried to
initially involved the Organization of American States,

360
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.240
which is the local organization for the
Americas. They didn't give him the time

361
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.000
of the day anyway. It was
a very small country, had just become

362
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:18.279
independent, had only about one hundred
thousand people population, but it still was

363
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:23.400
a member of the UN. And
when the General Assembly comes any all the

364
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.119
head of states get to talk,
and as the head of state, you

365
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:33.279
can talk whatever you want. So
he brought up the UFU subject and what

366
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.240
he wanted to do was to create
a UFULL Study Group out of the Outer

367
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:44.119
Space Committee. And they actually made
an official motion. Well this was in

368
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:48.559
nineteen seventy seven, the initial stage
and to create this, and they passed

369
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:56.160
it what is called a resolution forty
two dash forty four something like that.

370
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:57.960
I don't have the papers in front
of me, but that is an official

371
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.559
document. And he was sent to
many countries. Most countries ignored it.

372
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:08.039
There were few that responded. India, interestingly enough, was one of the

373
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:15.200
countries that responded luke warm, but
at least responded. There were a couple

374
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.599
of other small islands, say Shells
whatever responded. And then in nineteen seventy

375
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:27.319
eight he convened this hearing at the
UN Political Special Committee. This was a

376
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.640
totally official meeting. There were transcripts
you can still get the transcripts from the

377
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:37.599
UN. And he had a panel
of experts there and including doctor Allen Heinek

378
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.240
and Shaq Ballet. Gordon Cooper,
the astronaut, also was involved, but

379
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:48.440
not at that hearing, but previously
they had a private meeting with the Secretary

380
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:53.000
General, who was an Austria called
Kurt Wallheim, and Gordon Cooper was present

381
00:30:53.079 --> 00:31:00.160
there. Also there was a witness, Lieutenant Colonel A. Coin, the

382
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.519
famous helicopter case in Ohio nineteen seventy
three. One I shouldn't mention, I

383
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:08.880
guess for those who don't know what. Gordon Cooper he had a sighting where

384
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.519
he saw a craft land and filmed
it at was that Nellis Edwards Edwards Air

385
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.279
Force Base. Well, and he
had almost confiscated Yeah, well we had

386
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.400
two sightings he had the first well
the first sighting because this is only in

387
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:30.319
his biography. The first was in
Germany chasing UFO. Yeah, as a

388
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.880
fighter pilot in Germany he saw UFOs
and then in the one in Edwards he

389
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:38.599
did. He didn't see it,
but he saw the film right and he

390
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:41.680
heard the stories from them. And
there was a UFO that landed on the

391
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.759
dry lake bed and I wouldn't say
the film was confiscating. He was ordered

392
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:52.119
by his superiors to be put in
a container and sent to watching them that

393
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.240
that was the end of it.
Yeah, Gordon Cooper. I met him,

394
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.960
actually, he had the honor of
meeting him at the conference in Fortsmouth,

395
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:02.640
New Hampshire has the move on conference
that used to be put in New

396
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:07.079
Hampshire, the only time that to
my knowledge that he actually spoke at a

397
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:12.599
UFO conference. And what else was
at the U n oh well other than

398
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:19.240
coin Vallet that was it. I
think the Piagures. Now there was another

399
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.599
man who was involved previously with Prime
Minister Gary, but him and Heineg didn't

400
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:30.200
get along. And he was a
very colorful personality and his name is Coleman

401
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:35.759
bon Kevinski and he was one of
my Ufour Mentors really really was Garan colonel

402
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:40.359
and he had a small organization in
New York called Kophone, the Continental Ufour

403
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:45.480
Network. And he was a great
guy, very very colorful guy. Why

404
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.640
didn't him and Heinek get along because
Coleman was very blunt. He was a

405
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:55.960
military man, and so he believed
in like and he believed in saying things,

406
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.319
you know, like without any pree
ambles or and Heinig was the opposite.

407
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:05.720
It was a very cautious man.
And so initially Coleman had been involved

408
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:10.319
with Gary, but then when Heinig
became involved, Heinich made it a condition

409
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.200
that I'll work with you, but
no Coleman. Coleman was there in the

410
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.960
basically he was at the press conference. So there was a press conference and

411
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:25.640
he made trouble there because Coleman was
the character like that. And unfortunately what

412
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.680
happened then came nineteen seventy nine.
Maybe this thing would have gone somewhere.

413
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.359
Although Renata had no influence, I
also believed that this, even though this

414
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.920
was at the height of the Cold
War, that here was an issue where

415
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:45.880
both the US and then the Soviet
Union agreed and they neither superpower wanted this,

416
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:51.319
so neither and they basically controlled the
UN and back in those days.

417
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.680
So the thing was it kicksotic.
You know, it would have a teris

418
00:33:54.839 --> 00:34:00.519
story where who was the guy I'm
sorry who sponsored and g Gary, sirh

419
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.720
Gary Brenada, Eric Gary did it? Wasn't there a story where he witnessed

420
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.519
and that passion in New York.
No, No, that's a different story.

421
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.760
That's the Linda case, that poud
Hopkins's case, and that is not

422
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:21.800
him but the Secretary General allegedly Pais
Equator. Okay, who was the guy

423
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:27.599
who came after Baalheim? But that's
another story. Now, in nineteen seventy

424
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:34.400
nine, Saray Gary was overthrown in
a military coups in Grenada. He was

425
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.920
just he was all the time doing
his view of full lobby. Apparently he

426
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.880
wasn't taking very good care of business
and as a head of state even though

427
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.920
he was the George Washington, you
know, he was the first leader of

428
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:51.559
the independent country Grenetta. But he
was overthrown. Now, of course many

429
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.880
conspiracy people would say, well the
US had a hands, but this conspiracy

430
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.199
I do not believe, for a
simple reason, the people who overthrown Gary

431
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:04.760
were Marxists, and we're in the
middle of the Cold War, and they

432
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.880
were Marxists, and they invite the
Cubans. And I cannot think even on

433
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:12.440
the Euphotian that you would have the
CIA. They would probably rather have a

434
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:17.719
US exactly upon two sets with no
influence than the Commonist country. And in

435
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.639
fact, as you know, probably
I don't know, well, I guess

436
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:25.320
you should. You probably know this
to nineteen eighty four, I think Reagan

437
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:30.599
invader Granada. We sent the Marines
there to get rid of the Marxists,

438
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.639
because then there was a second coup
and they killed the guy who had his

439
00:35:35.719 --> 00:35:38.840
name was Maurice Bishop, the guy
that had overthrown Gary. And the second

440
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:44.679
coup they were much more hardcore.
The first one was sort of a soft

441
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:50.199
Marxist, the second ones were total
Marxist. So this was under Reagan and

442
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:52.760
Weinberger and those people said, no
way, now we're going into They found

443
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:58.519
some excuse as there were some American
students at a medical school or something and

444
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.239
quote to to say, you know, protect their lives. We send a

445
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:07.920
huge Flatida. And of course it
took you know, about one day to

446
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:15.760
invade the country or half a day, and that was it. So Unfortunately,

447
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:22.039
after this whole episode, nobody,
no other country has wanted to touch

448
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:27.280
the issue of UFOs in the United
Nations. On the other hand, the

449
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:32.239
resolution that was passed under Gay is
still in the books. So now that

450
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:37.960
everybody's talking about exopolitics, that would
be the move. You have to actually

451
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:42.039
we have to lobby or find a
country, and it could be small country.

452
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.280
And at one time we thought we
had a candidate, which was the

453
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.920
little Republic of San Marino in Italy, which is exactly an independent country.

454
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.320
There was a hope at one time
that they would take the banner, you

455
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:59.000
know, from Grenada and levine this
resolution. Well maybe if they're small enough

456
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.920
country, all of this uthologists can
get together, maybe we could get moved

457
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.840
on. They got a few thousand
people, and we hold a coupe over

458
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.440
one of the small countries and yeah, they're there are city size countries,

459
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.239
you know, well Samrino for instance, but some Marino didn't go for it

460
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:20.920
either. We did sign a thing
called the San Marino Charter or Karta,

461
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:24.320
you know, the document was this
was back in night. Now we're moving

462
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:29.000
from seventy eight to ninety eight.
Well, what was your role in the

463
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.920
U n No. Basically at that
time, that was it. I might

464
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.480
I just went there as a journalist. Basically, Yeah, he was open

465
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.639
to the public. The hearing was
open to the public, and I attended

466
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:45.920
it. I will say, nobody
in athology back then were you covering it.

467
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.880
I wrote a couple of articles for
the I guess it was the Chilean

468
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:53.599
papers at the Times. Yeah,
and now maybe some small alternative paper in

469
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.239
New York or something, But that's
it. That was That was even before

470
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:06.079
I started writing for the U formats
around nineteen seventy nine thanks to the well

471
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.400
no, I think it was around
seventy nine seventy eight. Well somewhere in

472
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.159
the late seventies, I sort of
caught the tail end of what they used

473
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:20.360
to be the polpe Era UFO magazines
remem Masaga Ufo Report. There was one

474
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.639
called Ideal for Ufo Magazine. They
were very, you know, low budget,

475
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:30.400
but nevertheless they were a nuisance and
they paid and everything. And I

476
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:35.239
yes, I did write for several
of those magazines until they went out of

477
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.639
business by like the early eighties.
I also wrote for some international magazines.

478
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:45.920
Thanks to the connections that Comapon Kelinski
had internationally. I got some connections to

479
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:52.920
write for Spanish magazines Mundo is Conosio, which was a big magazine, and

480
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:58.639
I also wrote some other articles for
Chilean newspapers, and eventually I wrote for

481
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.719
New York paper to the New York
City Tribune, where I had a science

482
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:09.480
column. I was mostly writing about
NASA and you know, exploration of Mars

483
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:15.960
and whatever its mainstream scientific is.
But luckily for me, my editor was

484
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:21.599
open minded about UFOs and so every
so often I would squeeze the UFO story.

485
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:28.039
And then in the nineties I was
writing all over the place. I

486
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.800
was writing for I was the faith
the columnists for ten years for Fath magazine

487
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:38.639
on UFOs, and I was writing
for big Spanish magazines, and I wrote

488
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:44.760
for had a couple of stories in
Omni, all over the place. So

489
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:51.400
at what point did you get involved
with Rockefeller's briefing document. Yeah, this

490
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:59.639
would have been around nineteen maybe I
was up ninety five. Probably I was

491
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.519
a pro In nineteen ninety five.
I was working for the Japanese at the

492
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.119
time. I had some big contract
in Japan. I went there three times

493
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:14.440
and then there were some pretty exciting
projects and I remember that Bootsy as they

494
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:22.400
call her. Marie golbrit who was
the wife of Evan Golbrith, who passed

495
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:30.159
away recently. He had been a
candidate for governorship of New York. It

496
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:36.079
was an important man in New York
and a banker, investment bankers on He

497
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:40.880
was ambassador of France in France,
the Ronald Reagan, he was the American

498
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:47.800
ambassador in Paris. Their husband,
Marie Gobet, was very interesting in UFOs

499
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:52.760
and she and Sandy Wright, a
dear friend of mine who was also involved

500
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:58.519
in the early stages. They approached
me. They had already done Berliner,

501
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:02.400
you know, the aviation writer and
all member of Nightcap and the fun for

502
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:08.360
UFO Research, had written the original
draft of the UFO Briefing document the best

503
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:15.280
available evidence, but it needed some
revamping and I needed more international cases,

504
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:21.880
and it needed a serious rewriting in
their opinion, and so they I think

505
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.800
I was recommended by various people,
and so they came to me. I

506
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.960
remember I had an office after one
of the one of the Japanese projects.

507
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:35.159
Unfortunately, I was very busy at
the time, so I actually I had

508
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.280
to turn it down because I was
under pressure to finish some major projects for

509
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:43.960
a laser disc on ufolds, and
I just realistically I couldn't do it.

510
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:45.719
But I said, but this is
going to end, you know, within

511
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:49.920
six months or something, this project
will end, and then I might be

512
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:53.119
able to help you. So sure
enough, the project did end, and

513
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:58.280
I think I contact them and they
said, yeah, now that's what we

514
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.039
really need you, because now we
have this draft and it needs to be

515
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:07.400
done. So I then I went
to work for them, and I actually

516
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:13.880
worked at the office that Marie Golbert
had in Madison Avenue for a few months

517
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:19.199
and we basically got that report out. We finished the report. I re

518
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:27.000
wrote considerably the original manuscript and it
was finally completed in December of ninety five,

519
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.239
and it was really sent to the
VIPs and members of Congress and all

520
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:37.079
that in early ninety ninety six,
and it was only one thousand copies.

521
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.559
And I think we have the cover. I don't know if it's in the

522
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:45.519
in the five Yeah, we do
have a cover that maybe they can show

523
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:51.320
on it. And basically that was
it. Unfortunately, there were a couple

524
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.960
of things that happened with his project, and one is that they I don't

525
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.880
know. I never understood well,
why this happened, because they invested quite

526
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:02.440
a bit of money and it's a
long term project. And this, of

527
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.880
course was one of many things that
Rockefeller funded, but this was one of

528
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:12.199
them. And yet even though it
was supposed to be like a lobbying document

529
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:17.599
basically to be sent to important people, there was no policy whatsoever to PR

530
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.840
to do PR. I mean,
that's the whole point. You do a

531
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:23.599
document and then you have to pressure
the people, you know, if you

532
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.679
want to come, if you want
to comp in something. Well, it

533
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.639
sounded like I mean, I'm looking
at like Grant Cameron's presidential UFO website.

534
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:37.360
It seemed like he just wanted a
document that he could give to his Rockefeller

535
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:42.239
and his colleagues and the people he
was trying to influence to do something such

536
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.800
as the Clintons. Right, But
there was no policy whatsoever. I remember

537
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.199
Marie Goldworth did not want to deal
with the media. She was almost terrified

538
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.760
of having to deal with the media. And we had media coming because the

539
00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:00.760
word got out mostly thanks to Mike
Lackman, who was the PR man,

540
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:04.880
and he since there was a void, he basically filled that void and he

541
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.400
released the news. It was funny
I asked. Actually he was angry with

542
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.239
him at the time because you know, I was a member of the thing

543
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.639
and he wasn't. And he was
releasing it like if he had written the

544
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.519
document. You know, he was
sending it to the page six and then

545
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.000
Your Post and the Daily News and
everywhere, and we had no there was

546
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:27.239
no policy. There was no,
no, no, nothing happened. Well,

547
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:32.920
all of Rockefeller's involvement was really not
probably well no, of course,

548
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.440
Rockefeller was always under the scene.
Yeah, that was his thing. However,

549
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:42.199
oddly enough, so in the US
had very little official impact. I

550
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.320
mean, he went to the Clinton
administration people, but nothing happened there.

551
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:51.400
He went to several congressmen, and
I believe Henry Kissinger received the copy.

552
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.679
He was, yeah, he wasn't. The mailing list Colin Powell received the

553
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:59.119
copy. So some people like that
did get it, but there was no

554
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:04.000
follow up. Not Some of these
people wrote Marie Golbreth courtesy letters, you

555
00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:07.239
know, and polite letters saying,
you know, acknowledging received. Oh yeah,

556
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:12.000
no, that picture is good,
you're showing it. Because this document

557
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.880
had, however, impact to my
knowledge, and at least two places,

558
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:20.159
one was in France and the other
one was in Chile. In France,

559
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.400
what happened is Marie Golbrith, as
I mentioned earlier, was the wife of

560
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:28.559
the American ambassador. So and she
had lived in Paris for years, so

561
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:34.039
she knew everybody, she knew,
she raped everybody, and obviously if you

562
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.519
were the wife of the American ambassador, you're gonna yeah everybody, you know.

563
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:43.519
So the document had maximum distribution in
France with important people. We also

564
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.199
had the cooperation of the French Space
Agency with your van which now as you

565
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.239
know, the documents are all online. A gentleman, well, a gentleman

566
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.639
in the picture. So that was
in France, and in France eventually led.

567
00:45:54.800 --> 00:46:00.280
I think it had an influence to
their own report, which was the

568
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.159
Cometa Report, because everybody that was
in Cometa had copies of our document.

569
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:10.000
In fact, it's mentioned in the
bibliography and in the text they hardly mentioned

570
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:14.280
my name of Berliner. They give
all the accolades to Marie Golbert, you

571
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:17.480
know, because they knew her.
Then. I was going to Chile at

572
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.239
that time too, very often,
because it was a boom in followed in

573
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:25.719
Chile. There were many symposiums sponsored
by universities and all kinds of things.

574
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:35.239
And it so happened that in Chile
there was an effort was brewing to create

575
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.480
an official committee in the government to
study UFOs. And in that picture that

576
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:44.840
just showed, I'm handing the document. Well he's reading it. But I

577
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:49.239
had just handed a copy of the
document to General Ramon Vega, who was

578
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.320
a former Commander in chief of the
Chilean Air Force, who at the time

579
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.119
was a senator. There he's reading
the report. He actually has the page

580
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.000
where there's the famous painting of the
Virgin Mary in the UFO, you know,

581
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:05.519
from the fifteenth century. It lurns. Yeah, so this was just

582
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:10.559
good timing. Uh. These people
were trying to convince their own government that

583
00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:16.920
the UFOs were worthwhile phenomenon to pursue, and here was this very elegant report.

584
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:21.920
We're not talking of the paperback edition
that was put many yeys later by

585
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.880
Wittless Treeber, you know, as
a paperback, as a pocket book.

586
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:29.559
This was the elegant with the blue
cover and all that, and it really

587
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.199
looked like an official document. Oh
yeah, I know, I hadn't seen

588
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:37.280
that until you showed that. Yeah, there's no comparaton that one who UFO

589
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:39.760
book. You know, they don't
want to copy so bad, we'll try

590
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:45.880
to get them. And so it
was the timing was just great. It

591
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:47.519
wasn't meant to be that way.
It's just the way it happened. I

592
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:52.239
get in the document and they were
amassing all the arguments, and they presented

593
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.440
the arguments to the Chilean government,
and sure enough, the Air Force went

594
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:01.800
along and they created a small unit
out of the out of the air defense

595
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:07.239
no no, the radar, the
air control application, you know, organization,

596
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.360
and they have offices there. You
know, Originally I had felt a

597
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:16.559
little negatively towards the Rockefeller document.
And the reason why is when I really

598
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:22.719
got into this, when I found
Careers document, oh yeah, briefing document,

599
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.559
I was extremely excited, and especially
because he makes that free on his

600
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:30.400
website download, and so it was
widely distributed, unlocked the Rockefeller and I

601
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:36.800
was, you know, you get
in that conspiratorial mindset and you think was

602
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.559
Rockefeller trying to Career was trying to
Actually Rockefeller didn't have the copyright. Was

603
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:47.360
actually the three main ufoganuations. So
if there was an effort to supersit it,

604
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:51.880
it was from us, not from
me, because I was all for

605
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.440
having it out and what were well, it was a Coalition for UFO Research.

606
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.440
And this the history of this goes
because back in those days I was

607
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:02.719
was move On two. As you
know, in the old days, I

608
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:07.280
was an international coordinator, although I
didn't have much a cloud anyway, but

609
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.760
I tried. But back in those
days it was the first time they got

610
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.960
some money from Bigelow. And but
Bigelow said, I'm not going to give

611
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:21.800
you money to one organization or the
other. You have to create an umbrella

612
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:24.639
organization and then I will give you
the money to the three of them.

613
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.880
So they created this this coalition.
It was called the Coalition for u for

614
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:35.199
Research, and it was formed by
move On, the Fund for UFO Research

615
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:40.039
and KUFLES And if you read the
Rocketfeller, the documented the best available evidence.

616
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:45.480
It's signed by the three directors at
the time, which I think was

617
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:53.000
the call for the for the full
four Walt Andrews from move On and what's

618
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:58.519
his name for Koufos, I forgot
his name? Who? Yeah, But

619
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.800
bringing up that that object, Mark
Rodiger from the kindness bringing up the subject

620
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:07.480
a career in the briefing document just
because not a lot of people have much

621
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:12.159
insight into that, but you do. You were out there, and I

622
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.599
know it might be hard to choose
your works to be diplomatic about it,

623
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:20.239
but you know, how would you
explain what happened there? Well? What

624
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.280
happened in part was that, first
of all, Greer had received money from

625
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:28.559
Rockefeller previously. Rockefeller, like I
said, had funded many things, and

626
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:34.280
he funded quite a bit of large
sums of money to Greer for to do

627
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:38.440
the beginning of the earlier days of
the disclosure project, basically the witnesses,

628
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:45.679
to go around the world and locate
witnesses and interview them. I guess Greer

629
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:51.039
had proposed a briefing documents at one
time, but then the thing changed and

630
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:55.079
now Marigolvers was in charge, and
even though she had been friends with Grear,

631
00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:01.199
but Berliner and these guys wouldn't worked
with green Year, so he had

632
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:07.639
nothing to do with our document now. Greer, when the document was finally

633
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:14.920
published, was very mad, basically
and uh and he said that basically it

634
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:19.119
was I don't know if he used
the word plagiarism or something like that,

635
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.599
but it was. First of all, he objected to the title briefing document

636
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:28.800
Briefing document is is a you know, it's a standard name for any government

637
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:31.239
document, you know, I think
that's the title is generic. Yeah that

638
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:35.519
yeah, but it's a generic and
briefing document is generic. You cannot say,

639
00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:37.760
well, that's my title, you
know. I mean, any any

640
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:43.119
organization briefing and another head of state
of something does the briefing document. So

641
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:45.599
that's that doesn't make it. There's
no, no, no legs to that

642
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:51.679
complaint. The other complaint was that
we had supposedly used a lot of the

643
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:55.679
material. But that is also ridiculous
because we use the same documents that everybody

644
00:51:55.719 --> 00:52:00.639
has. I mean, Greer doesn't
have a hold over whatever the Strategic Air

645
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:07.079
Force incidents of nineteen seventy five,
or the Ran case of nineteen seventy six,

646
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:10.440
or the then the Charles the Colonel
Hold memo. I mean I had

647
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:15.079
those documents back in the seventies,
long before Breer was even in the map,

648
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:20.920
and so did Verliner. So we
really didn't use a material. We

649
00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:23.400
used material that was also used by
Greer, and it was used by Timothy

650
00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:27.639
Good, and it was used by
Comanta. I mean the documents are the

651
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:32.320
same. So Greer made a big
fuss. I don't in my opinion,

652
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:37.000
I don't think he behaved very well
because he had received money also from Rocketfellers.

653
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.679
So you don't bite as the hands
that feed you. Number one.

654
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:44.719
Number two, he didn't have much
of the case. Unfortunately. I wasn't

655
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:50.280
involved in that aspect. Yeah,
well, then I think Greer was also

656
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:54.000
giving copies of the document or something, and then Verliner objected and I think

657
00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:58.840
they threatened him with lawyers or something
like that. Right, Yeah, there

658
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:01.559
was a whole battle, but that
I was not involved, not with that

659
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:06.639
part of it. Behind the scenes
in neupology, but maybe sometimes not so

660
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:12.159
behind the scenes in neupology. There's
lots of mind. But I mean,

661
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:15.599
it was still good. I think
it is still great that career at least

662
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:20.159
continued on and got his document so
well distributed. Well, he did his

663
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:23.719
thing, we did ours. There
were some similarities in ours is much more

664
00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:29.719
conservative because ours was really meant to
be sent to all these people and for

665
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:34.480
them to really read read it carefully. Was sent to the administration, I

666
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:38.199
mean, and yeah, now from
presidential UFO, we can see that it

667
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:43.039
actually appears in some of these documents
about the Rockefeller initiative. He's one.

668
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:47.079
We can see that you know,
Rockefeller was working with Hillary Clinton and through

669
00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:52.119
her. Oh you know, Rockefeller
himself had not any input in the in

670
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.480
the dressing of our documents. Nobody
ever pressure us saying I know because I

671
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:59.440
was working. That's what I've heard
from everybody he funded. He gave him

672
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:01.159
money. Yeah they did. Yeah, we never heard anything like saying,

673
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:07.360
well you ought to discuss this and
not that. No. Marigobrick, on

674
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:09.480
the other hand, yes, she
was sort of the project coordinator and she

675
00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:15.320
was the one seeing Rockefeller. But
but yeah, giving from what I know

676
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:20.239
of him and the way he dealt
with later with the Stirrup Report, Yeah,

677
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:22.400
basically, like you say, he
would give the money and then let

678
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:28.480
people do what they what they would
do with it. So and then well,

679
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:32.159
let's move on to your book on
Russian UFL. Well, that was

680
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.199
an old one actually, that's much
earlier than the Rockefeller one. That that

681
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:42.960
was published in nineteen ninety one.
Probably how you get involved with Well,

682
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:46.480
that actually came when at the very
tail end of the Soviet Union it was

683
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:52.159
still called and we have the cover
there somewhere too. I thought of print.

684
00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:57.599
Now, But Antonio, are you
a communist? No, that initially

685
00:54:57.639 --> 00:55:02.400
came about in I guess two ways. One was I attended a very large

686
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:09.760
symposium that Michael Hesseman put in Frankfurt, Germany in nineteen eighty nine, and

687
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:14.199
it was one of the largest in
posiums I ever attended. It had way

688
00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:17.320
over a thousand people. Wow.
And where was that Frankfort. Wow.

689
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:24.199
Everybody important from the United States was
their freedman, Bud Hopkins, Wendell stevens

690
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:30.199
In, Coleman Van Kevinsky, in
the many more, and they were people

691
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:35.760
from all over the world. But
what was unusual for that time is that

692
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.639
for the first time ever we had
a big delegation from the Soviet Union.

693
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:45.320
And this had really never happened because
in the Cold War there was absolutely no

694
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:52.599
contact between Russian uthologists in the West. Occasionally the West, some article would

695
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:54.880
appear in the Russian press, you
know, and even now it doesn't happen

696
00:55:54.920 --> 00:56:00.000
too much. Yeah, but now
you can certainly go on the Internet or

697
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:04.480
whatever and and and talk to people. I mean they do nothing and stops

698
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:09.719
them. But back then it was
really impossible. I think occasionally that someone

699
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:15.559
would have with one letter and it
was like a rare thing. But and

700
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:20.639
then came Gorbachev in the eighties,
in the late eighties, and the Russian

701
00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:24.760
society opened up, and the press, the Soviet media opened up, and

702
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:32.199
one of the things that opened up
like crazy was the UFO issue. And

703
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:36.320
you were there, of course,
you were the States manager at the At

704
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:42.000
the recent Pressure Tribal conferences in Las
Vegas and Peter Robbins, a friend of

705
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:45.760
mine, I discussed the baroness case
of Bors I think they call it.

706
00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:52.360
And this is the city in Russia, large city where this UFO landed in

707
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:58.519
the in the park and and these
very tall beings came out of the the

708
00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:01.800
the craft and it was seen by
a bunch of kids that were playing soccer

709
00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:07.480
or something, as well as by
other adult Willis is too well, they've

710
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:10.760
been cases like this before. But
what was interesting is that this case was

711
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:15.880
picked up by the Task news agency
and it was published all over Russia.

712
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:19.719
And then it was because it was
published now openly in Russia, then he

713
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.199
was picked up by the Western media
and he made even front page on the

714
00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:28.119
New York Times, totally unheard of, and it was all over the world.

715
00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:31.679
So now we go a few months
later, we have this big conference

716
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:38.280
in Franklin, and h and Hesseman
invited all this Russian as the time,

717
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:44.280
they're still Soviet mythologists, and they
came and this was unique, and we

718
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:49.360
had a surgeate Bulansef, who had
appeared on that UFO cover up live show.

719
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:53.480
That was an early indication that things
were opening in Russia when in an

720
00:57:53.559 --> 00:58:00.239
American TV show you had two Russian
mythologists live via satellite from Moscow talking about

721
00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:04.559
the polls that again had never happened. But that's in nineteen eighty eight.

722
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:08.280
Things were moving, you know.
But here you had these people right there

723
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:14.079
and they gave talks and everything.
A Colonel Morgan Chouldro, who was a

724
00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:17.280
man from what was still called landing
Red later became Saint Petersburg, one of

725
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:25.280
the pioneers of Russian apologies. Ubarov
Ouvarov another guy from Saint Petersburg. So

726
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:30.239
I became friends with these guys.
I figured that this was the hot story

727
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:34.239
of the moment, you know,
because it was so new and new,

728
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:39.119
fresh storesh and I basically spent the
whole it was a very large symposium.

729
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:43.719
Last the days, I forgot four
or five days. I spent all the

730
00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:46.679
time with them. I got a
lot of material from them, and I

731
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:52.400
start collecting material from Russia, and
Kolmavankeevinski, who was Hungarian, was in

732
00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:57.559
contact with a lot of countries in
Eastern Europe. He was getting tons of

733
00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:01.920
material. Unfortunately, there was a
man who actually lives here in Tempe Arizona,

734
00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:07.480
was with move On, Dmitriosio,
a great guy, originally Serbian,

735
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:12.039
and he's a Polyglood. He because
I don't read Russian, and at the

736
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.360
time he was living in New York
City and he made all these free translations

737
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:21.760
for us. He translated all these
documents. And then also I would go

738
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:27.199
to the Victor Canting, which was
the old Soviet bookstore in New York City

739
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:30.880
where they used to sell in the
old days, you know, Russian propaganda

740
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.719
books, so you could write classic
literature, told story whatever. I think.

741
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.840
It was an agreement in the Cowards. So the Americans had an American

742
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:40.400
bookstore in Moscow, and the Russians
had won in New York and Washington or

743
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:45.599
something like that. It was usually
boring, you know, Soviet life,

744
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:49.239
you know how great the Soviet Union
is or whatever. But then finally it

745
00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:54.880
became interesting in the eighties again with
Glasnost and they were always uiful stories.

746
00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:00.480
I mean I would go there like
every ten days and always find some even

747
01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:06.960
Soviet military magazines there was one called
Soviet Soldier and another one like Air Force

748
01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:10.199
Times or something like that, and
they had beautiful series. Some was in

749
01:00:10.239 --> 01:00:15.159
English because it was a foreign distribution. Someon was in Russian. But then

750
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:19.360
we had the nature translated. Can
you remember some of these stories the more

751
01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:23.239
shocking, some of them were fascinating, but just to finish the book,

752
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:29.079
So basically I assembled a lot of
these stories. And it was not just

753
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:32.280
on UFOs. They had chapters on
cryptozoology, you know, the Russian bigfoot

754
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:37.920
which they call Almasti and or they
have a large nest type creature too,

755
01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:42.320
and Lake by Kyle, Yeah,
they had one. And there was stuff

756
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:45.079
about our psychology of course the Russians
that had a long history of our psychology.

757
01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:50.039
Russian to Pa Cabra not back in
those days, but I know,

758
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:54.679
but even in America two Pacabras wasn't
around. Yeah, and we published that

759
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:59.760
book was a small edition out of
print. Probably we can still find it

760
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:02.559
used copies of Amazona somewhere, but
it looks like cool. But yeah,

761
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:06.400
but yeah, what were some of
that big stories. Well, well,

762
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:10.639
there were lots of interesting us.
There was a fascinating story of a UFO

763
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:19.199
that harverd over a train. You
always hear about your phone interfering you with

764
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.159
with the cars or even airplanes,
but this is the only one that I

765
01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:28.199
know of a train right, and
there was a train to start Yeah,

766
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:31.639
no, I think the train was
going very fast and the conductor lost control

767
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:36.920
over his and there was something in
his pedometer of the train or something too.

768
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:39.840
I forgot the details, but it
was fascinating and it was published in

769
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:46.199
the cover of an equivalent to like
Popular Mechanics call it was a famous famous

770
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:52.039
Russian magazine Technical Molidacy like the Technology
and Youth I think it's called. It

771
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:55.480
was a very popular magazine in the
Soviet Union in the old days, you

772
01:01:55.519 --> 01:02:00.519
know, because they had a space
program and to write a lot of years

773
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:05.599
right to get Russian people to go
into science and engineering. But here this

774
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:09.800
was cover story that was a fascinating
case, and they investigated and they looked

775
01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:15.280
at the machines and all that.
Then there was of course documents that came,

776
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:22.360
but that was later. That was
after the Soviet Union fail and then

777
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:28.320
that's when the late cosmonaut to Pablo
Papovich, which we have an obituary on

778
01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:32.840
the our forthcoming magazine, you know, Open Mind magazine. I wrote it

779
01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:37.639
myself. In fact, I sent
you a copy of the briefing document.

780
01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:40.880
And I never met him personally,
unfortunately, that I did have correspondence with

781
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:45.000
him. He sent me at flax
one time. I remember thanking before the

782
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:50.360
briefing document. I didn't meet Marina
Papolovitch of course with his wife, although

783
01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:55.199
they later divorced. It was his
first wife. He had obtained a bunch

784
01:02:55.199 --> 01:03:00.639
of documents from the KGB back in
ninety one, I think, and these

785
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:07.719
were the first official military documents that
were declassified in Russia. It was quite

786
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:13.280
quite in use. And we had
one case in our briefing document because it's

787
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:19.079
very similar to bend Waters or to
some of the cases that Mounstrom and you

788
01:03:19.119 --> 01:03:23.519
know, the other bases in the
Strategic Air Command cases where you basically had

789
01:03:23.559 --> 01:03:32.039
a UFO Harvard over a highly top
secret base in Capusti Yard in central Russia,

790
01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:37.079
Siberia, somewhere in the middle of
Russia, and there was a jet

791
01:03:37.159 --> 01:03:40.840
fighter sand and it was seen by
a lot of guards. And we only

792
01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:45.400
have a portion of the doc I'm
sure it's much figerent, but the most

793
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:50.599
fascinating part there is that, and
there's a document about it, and even

794
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:54.280
the night witness drawing which we published
in a briefing document where the UFO shot

795
01:03:54.360 --> 01:04:01.400
a beam of light at the hangar
where they had nucleir wes wow so And

796
01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:05.119
of course, like I said that, Hope, Colonel Hope always talks about

797
01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:10.480
that. That was probably the most
significant aspect of the Bedwater's case, at

798
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:14.280
least to him as a military man. He was always and he was always

799
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:16.440
I met Colonel Hope myself, you
know, a couple of times. He

800
01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:20.760
was always shocked why it wasn't a
follow up on this, or probably it

801
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.760
was, but he was he didn't
even know. I mean, if it

802
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:28.119
was, it was it was so
secret that he didn't even find out.

803
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:33.239
And Colonel Hope, that's in relationship
at Randall Forest, right, and he

804
01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:39.079
mentions that there were beams going into
the into the story and where the weapons

805
01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:43.159
were and uh, and I think
there was a it was a very delicate

806
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:47.280
subject because the British public wasn't supposed
to know that there were nuclear weapons there,

807
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.920
but they were, and you know, there was a lot of it.

808
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:54.639
It was a big anti nuclear movement
in Europe against the US, and

809
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:58.679
so it was touching. And like
one I think it was Lord hill Norton,

810
01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:00.599
not the House of Lords. So
one of those I think it was

811
01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:04.760
Lord hill Norton, who had been
the chiefly in admiral. He said,

812
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:12.199
well, if this is not affects
security, and then what does Yeah,

813
01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:15.239
because the British miniature of defense kept
like well, basically was the classic case

814
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.639
of each they kept passing the butt
to each other. The Bridishers say,

815
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:23.920
well, it's not our case because
it happened even though the basis they were

816
01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:27.960
the landlord, right, but by
all the personnel was American. So it's

817
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.039
an American affair because the witnesses where
American and Americans. It's a British affair

818
01:05:31.159 --> 01:05:34.760
because it happened in Great Britain and
they kind of kept passing the butt to

819
01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:41.639
each other. And one of the
stories speaking of the Russian files and and

820
01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:45.039
uh not the debunk, but I
think that it's important some of the information

821
01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:49.400
you have that I hadn't heard before
about the Navy documents, well, the

822
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:55.199
KGB files, TV shows, the
TV show Yeah, yeah, and some

823
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:58.920
of what you and your colleagues had
found about. Yeah. Yeah, it's

824
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:03.000
not one of my favorite subjects,
but because you know, unfortunately I was

825
01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:09.039
interviewed there. I'm on the show. Well, initially I thought it was

826
01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:11.679
great. I mean, I had
James Bond, you know, Roger Moore,

827
01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:16.679
Tonio U four expert Antonio who nails
and he pronounces perfectly too, because

828
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:21.679
people always mispronounced my name, so
that I was good. But but I

829
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:26.400
had nothing to do with I mean, I had no idea what this thing

830
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:30.079
was all about. I was I
was contact by by through a friend.

831
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:33.360
I found out that this TV show
was being produced. I had of course

832
01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:40.400
published not only that book but many
articles on on Soviet and Russian ufour cases,

833
01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:45.119
so it was natural that they would
want to talk to it. And

834
01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:50.280
I remember I went with major filer
George Fyler. They pull us together to

835
01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:57.199
La They put us on a nice
hotel there and we were interviewed the typical

836
01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:00.840
TV show. They interviewed me for
whatever forty minutes and and they only used

837
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:04.960
like two three app and except for
the Dominigres case, which is a very

838
01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:11.599
interesting case where there was something crash
and it's a legitimate case and there photographs

839
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:14.800
was the one where there's a crash
on a Russian basis. No, the

840
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.800
down Goes case happened on not on
the military futility. That's why we know

841
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:24.400
about it. This happened in nineteen
eighty six, and I wrote about it

842
01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:29.320
in the newspaper at the time when
I was still writing for the New York

843
01:07:29.320 --> 01:07:34.519
City Tribune. And it's a fascinating
case because there was a commission at that

844
01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:41.079
time. The followed in Russia was
under the Academy of Sciences and the Academy

845
01:07:41.079 --> 01:07:43.760
of well one aspect of it.
The other aspect, of course, was

846
01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:46.199
secret. There were two commissions in
Russia. One was the public one and

847
01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:49.480
the other one was the secret one. The public one was run by the

848
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:54.039
like I said, by the National
Academy of Sciences, which is unlike in

849
01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:57.719
America, and America is a small
organization, but in Russia it's a huge

850
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:01.239
one. There's thousands of members.
And so what they had they had committees

851
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:06.519
in the major different Russian cities on
what was called anomalous aerial phenomena because they

852
01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:12.519
didn't want to use the name UFO
because of all its connotation. So but

853
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:16.520
it was basically the same thing and
these people were sientists. This was it

854
01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:23.800
was a serious tough and they were
very cautious and you know, documenting scientifically

855
01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:29.279
these various UFO events. Meanwhile,
there was another commission which was secret,

856
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:33.119
which was run by the military and
the KGB. The KGD of course had

857
01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:41.079
units, had agents in every military
unit, any any Russian Soviet we're talking

858
01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:46.560
in any Soviet ship or regiment or
battalion would have always a KGB officer posted

859
01:08:46.600 --> 01:08:51.039
there to make sure that ideologically,
you know, everybody step in line and

860
01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:56.520
you know, to control intelligence and
all that. And uh so they were

861
01:08:56.600 --> 01:09:01.199
also they had an actual committee and
they were also keeping extensive files on UFOs.

862
01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:06.760
Uh Popovich obtained some of them.
George Knapp when he went to Russia

863
01:09:06.800 --> 01:09:13.000
in ninety five or something also brought
back a thick year of which he gave

864
01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:16.279
me copies. There was some fascinating
cases, including the one in Whi,

865
01:09:16.600 --> 01:09:23.560
Ukraine of soo Au Solo base,
when the UFO changed the codes of the

866
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:29.079
of the of the intercontinental ballistic missile. Oh really yeah, and they in

867
01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:31.840
only a time. At one moment
it looked that the thing was lighting up

868
01:09:32.319 --> 01:09:35.159
and only the order could come from
Moscow, you know, so they thought

869
01:09:35.199 --> 01:09:39.880
maybe launching, Yeah, maybe it
was launching and they had no control over

870
01:09:39.960 --> 01:09:44.479
it. So fortunately stopped, you
know, and then they went crazy and

871
01:09:44.520 --> 01:09:48.359
they dismantled the whole thing to see
if there was any malfunction that they couldn't

872
01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:54.119
find anything. The guy who was
at the bunker never saw the UFOL because

873
01:09:54.119 --> 01:09:58.119
he wasn't the underground bunker, but
he testified to the to where he lost

874
01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:02.560
control over of the control pan.
Meanwhile outside, This was in nineteen eighty

875
01:10:02.600 --> 01:10:09.000
two. This, by the way, was in prime time twenty twenty one

876
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:14.279
of those programs, not twenty prime
time. I think it's Yeah with Sam

877
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:18.680
Donaldson. Actually that show was broadcast
there they interviewed the guy or one of

878
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:24.840
the witnesses. And at the same
time that the officer and the bunker was

879
01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:30.039
experiencing all this malfunction with the control
panel for the nuclear weapons, the people

880
01:10:30.079 --> 01:10:35.399
outside were seeing UFOs hovering over the
base. So that came in those documents

881
01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:41.079
that George Nap obtained. And then
most recently, of course, we had

882
01:10:41.079 --> 01:10:45.439
this news about the release of the
Navy. Navy document we just said,

883
01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:48.399
and I will touch on that,
but I mean, I wanted to follow

884
01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:54.239
up, just so people know.
I think it's important people know when they're

885
01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:58.960
being deceived and with those KGB files. The show, oh oh yeah,

886
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:04.840
sorry. The show well, so
basically, so I go to this TV

887
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:12.359
production in Hollywood, Associated Independent Television, and they show me father and I

888
01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:15.039
this this footage. I had never
seen of it, never heard of it,

889
01:11:15.560 --> 01:11:17.560
and I get my opinion, you
know, yeah, I said,

890
01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:21.840
it looks very clear. It looks
the best we have if it's real.

891
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:26.359
But then unfortunately, in the beginning
of the show they cut you know,

892
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:30.640
if it's real, I appear like
endorsing it. Later they do show the

893
01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:36.760
full clip. Well, eventually,
though I was very suspicious. It was

894
01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:42.720
an exciting program, no question about
it, and they did interview some people

895
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:46.760
in Russia that that were we know
they exist, like Aveanski was a phenom

896
01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:51.720
mine one of the Russian apologists appears
on that show. But unfortunately there's so

897
01:11:51.880 --> 01:12:00.199
many holes in that story and the
main well, they they mentioned that guy

898
01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:04.720
Callver shagin Ovator Shagin, who was
supposed to be a Russian expert, who

899
01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:10.000
was the expert on this case and
wrote a book about it. Now it'sa's

900
01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.479
weird. I know, all the
Russian apologists. I know it's a big

901
01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:15.680
country, but I mean I heard
of it. Well, not only me,

902
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:18.800
even all the Russian nobody has ever
heard of this guy. And you

903
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:21.840
know it really he didn't end his
but there was no book. The book

904
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:27.000
was never published. The guy never
existed. So once you get that,

905
01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:30.960
you already have a bad start,
and uh, everything kind of fall apart.

906
01:12:31.279 --> 01:12:36.800
Uh the there's the business with They
claim that this UFO crash, right,

907
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:42.279
and where the video? Yeah,
yeah, the turtle kind of looking,

908
01:12:42.920 --> 01:12:47.840
and then they take the being uh
to some medical facility I've forgotten in

909
01:12:47.880 --> 01:12:54.800
which city Landing, right, I
guess, and they and the three doctors

910
01:12:54.840 --> 01:12:58.279
do the autopsy and stuff. It
was obviously a copycat of the Santilli,

911
01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:01.720
you know, because that had such
a success that this company figured, hey,

912
01:13:01.760 --> 01:13:05.359
we'll do one in Russia and it'll
be much harder to verify things in

913
01:13:05.439 --> 01:13:10.199
Russia, so we'll get away with
it, That's my guess. But in

914
01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:15.960
any case, they have these doctors
supposedly take the autopsic make their topsy to

915
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.960
the being, and then they claim
that the three doctors died of radiation fickness

916
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:27.600
or something like within weeks. They
show the documents of the desertificates years later,

917
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:30.039
I mean when the I mean,
well, this would have happened like

918
01:13:30.079 --> 01:13:33.920
in nineteen sixty eight or something like
that. So that was the Soviet Union.

919
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:40.479
So the desertificate should that say Soviet
Russian Republic, remember, because it

920
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:45.319
was the Union of Socialist Soviet republics. But of course it's in surreally alpha

921
01:13:45.399 --> 01:13:49.039
bit so for us it doesn't make
a difference. But the Russian guys that

922
01:13:49.239 --> 01:13:56.680
looked at this could tell that what
the producers were careless and they used current

923
01:13:56.960 --> 01:14:01.680
documents de certificates from the new Russia, so it says instead of Soviet Russian

924
01:14:01.720 --> 01:14:06.640
Republic, it said Russian Federated Republic. Well that's after the following the Soviet

925
01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.439
Union, so god document could not
be valid for nineteen sixty eight. That's

926
01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:15.319
one thing. There's a whole host
officials like that I had to do with

927
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:19.560
insignias and the military uniforms and this
and that. But to me, the

928
01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:25.760
whole thing is a hoax. Unfortunately. Yeah and yeah, that is unfortunate,

929
01:14:25.800 --> 01:14:29.079
but it's always good to find that
out. I mean, for instance,

930
01:14:29.159 --> 01:14:32.880
I've been talking about this picture in
nineteen fifty two of the buzzing of

931
01:14:32.920 --> 01:14:36.359
the White House, right, it
was great to have you tell me that.

932
01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:41.720
Actually, you know, we found
out other lent swears and it's not

933
01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:45.439
taken in nineteen fifty two, but
like in nineteen fifty nine or something like

934
01:14:45.479 --> 01:14:48.119
that, or even the sixties.
We have the re both both Marica and

935
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:53.319
I we have different reports. I
have the report that was prepared by Coleman

936
01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:58.079
Gonkevinski, who was a photo analyst
for the Hungarian Army. He was creator

937
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:01.079
of the Audio visual Department of the
Hungarian in the nineteen thirties, so he

938
01:15:01.159 --> 01:15:04.640
knew all about photography and he was
totally proll UFO. So you cannot say

939
01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:08.000
the guys at the Bunker or whatever. He was, you know, a

940
01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:13.039
firm believer in UFOs. Yet he
was honest in that case and he discovered

941
01:15:13.039 --> 01:15:16.239
that he was Lenslers. My Ustio
has a similar report that was done by

942
01:15:16.279 --> 01:15:20.800
some Italian professor who came without each
knowing of each other, came exactly to

943
01:15:20.920 --> 01:15:25.680
the same conclusion. Yeah, unfortunately, there's a lot of false information in

944
01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:30.680
UFOs. In it doesn't help our
case. You know, if we if

945
01:15:30.720 --> 01:15:33.760
we promote everything as a true UFO. Yeah, and I like to get

946
01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:38.800
as much information out to people as
possible. Yeah, but yeah, let's

947
01:15:38.840 --> 01:15:43.359
move on then to those Navy.
Well, I'm still really trying to track

948
01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:47.119
down the story of the navy on
my only son of personal thing there is

949
01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:51.920
that when this story came out just
about two months ago, right, I

950
01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:57.880
had just started working for Open Minds, and Marisa put me in charge of

951
01:15:57.920 --> 01:16:01.239
the news section for our magazine,
and I said, well, obviously this

952
01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:04.640
is one of the main stories we
had. Of course scored Mackinna and there

953
01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:11.960
as well, and yeah, I
had to revise that story like three times,

954
01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:14.199
you know, before we closed the
magazine. Now you have to revise

955
01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:17.800
it again. So it's too late
now, I think where we're practically going,

956
01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:20.720
and we were finished with a text
for the magazine. But anyway,

957
01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:27.640
going back to the Russian so uh, they were all quoting the doctor Vlady

958
01:16:29.319 --> 01:16:32.399
and doctor Ajaja. Probably most of
your listeners are not familiar with him.

959
01:16:34.279 --> 01:16:39.880
Yeah, but he's one of the
great legendary upologists in Russia. Originally it

960
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:45.039
was doctor Viegel, who was a
professor of the Moscow Aviation Institute, and

961
01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:48.479
he was really the founding father of
Russian apology. But he passed away in

962
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:55.000
nineteen eighty eight, and the other
figure was Ajaja. He's he's eighty.

963
01:16:55.039 --> 01:16:58.680
Oh yes, I am there with
him and Marina Popovic. And this was

964
01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:05.039
in an interview done in Tokyo in
nineteen ninety one. They were I need

965
01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:12.319
yeah, So I met both of
them and I interviewed the good doctor.

966
01:17:12.399 --> 01:17:18.560
He's much older now and Asraja was
a submarine captain and he's also an oscanographer,

967
01:17:19.159 --> 01:17:24.720
so his expertise, his professional expertise
is the oceans. He later became

968
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:32.119
a neupologist. He drafted the Christiannaire, the UFO reporting form for the Russian

969
01:17:32.439 --> 01:17:39.520
Merchant Marine. He did that so
when the story came out, he was

970
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:45.439
quoted in all these Russian resources because
he's obviously an expert, and he gives

971
01:17:45.439 --> 01:17:50.119
the percentage. He says that a
large number of cases in Russia as well

972
01:17:50.119 --> 01:17:55.880
as everywhere else, but he's specifically
talking of Russia happened in bodies of water

973
01:17:56.000 --> 01:18:01.640
where it's lakes or UFOs or big
rivers. So but the one I have

974
01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:05.960
not I'm still working on that story
and I will as soon as we got

975
01:18:08.119 --> 01:18:12.560
news on it, we will of
course post it on our website. We're

976
01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:15.239
still trying to get hold of the
actual documents. We have not seen the

977
01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:19.000
documents themselves. Now. I think
that part of it is that the Russian

978
01:18:19.720 --> 01:18:23.960
yes, it's great that they're releasing
and I assume this is true because it

979
01:18:24.079 --> 01:18:28.800
was reported all over the Russian press, so I didn't hear any denial,

980
01:18:29.319 --> 01:18:31.960
you know. So I'm sure they're
released, but they're not like the French,

981
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:36.239
or the British, or even the
Brazilians who now or the Danish with

982
01:18:36.359 --> 01:18:41.880
all these other countries. Now when
they're releasing the documents, they're almost immediately

983
01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:45.920
posting them online. I think the
Russian Navy is a little bit more.

984
01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:48.880
They don't want probably lots of people
going online to their site or whatever,

985
01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:55.680
so you probably have to request them
by letter or something, or leave them

986
01:18:55.720 --> 01:18:59.920
at their library or something like that. But if they are the classified,

987
01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:02.720
sooner or later we'll get hold of
them. Yeah, so I'm looking.

988
01:19:02.800 --> 01:19:06.279
I still have not seen the actual
documents. I was looking for some of

989
01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:11.239
the documents that we have, you
know, from the from the George Knapp.

990
01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:15.199
They'll see it. And I did
find a couple of onths from Navy.

991
01:19:15.560 --> 01:19:18.720
By most of those documents are air
force though well in ninety one,

992
01:19:20.359 --> 01:19:24.760
Yes, those were mostly Air Force
two. Okay, weren't there some Navy

993
01:19:24.760 --> 01:19:28.760
ones there? At least one in
there. I did not. I'm not

994
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:30.439
sure. Okay, okay, I'm
not sure. We do have in my

995
01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:34.640
files. There are some other cases
with Navy, so we will be posting

996
01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:40.640
to some additional material I know and
I had received when we sent out that

997
01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:46.039
message about those files. Bruce mcabee
said that a Japanese researcher had told him

998
01:19:46.039 --> 01:19:50.640
about at least one of those Navy
Russian stories back and then another. It

999
01:19:50.680 --> 01:19:55.000
could be because I don't have the
entire they'll see if the Vigia there were

1000
01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:59.319
like one hundred and thirty high documents
and I only have I don't know a

1001
01:19:59.359 --> 01:20:01.840
few dozens, so it's possible I
do have, I believe in index of

1002
01:20:01.880 --> 01:20:06.479
it. I would have to take
a look at it. Now going back

1003
01:20:06.520 --> 01:20:12.199
to Chile, now, there was
an interesting story too of a former commander

1004
01:20:12.279 --> 01:20:17.520
in chief of the Chilean Navy who
gave a TV interview a few years ago,

1005
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:24.359
about two thousand and two, maybe
something like that, and his name

1006
01:20:24.439 --> 01:20:31.520
is Martinis Bush, no relation to
Guity George and this man former commander in

1007
01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:34.680
chief of the Navy and Chile is
a very long country with a very long

1008
01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:40.279
navy, you know, very very
rich naval tradition because they saw so much

1009
01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:44.640
ocean. And you know, we
have the father of the Chilean Navy,

1010
01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:49.039
the British admiral actually Lord Cochran,
and from the days of the War of

1011
01:20:49.119 --> 01:20:55.239
Chilean Independence in the eighteen tens and
twenties. So in any case, this

1012
01:20:55.279 --> 01:21:00.039
guy goes on TV and he tells
the reporter that, yes, there are

1013
01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:04.840
many cases in the Chilean Navy with
UFOs and when I was a young officer,

1014
01:21:05.399 --> 01:21:11.640
I have two experiences. Then he
goes and he helps experiences and that's

1015
01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:14.760
incredible. That's pretty cool. Yeah, when you have a former commander in

1016
01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:19.359
chief, you know, but we
haven't seen documents. There were I think

1017
01:21:19.399 --> 01:21:23.760
you mentioned in one of your earlier
TV shows, I mean radio shows.

1018
01:21:23.760 --> 01:21:30.439
There was some videos were released by
the Chilean military by this commission that is

1019
01:21:30.439 --> 01:21:33.279
connected to the airpace so I'm not
actually an air force. Well, it's

1020
01:21:33.279 --> 01:21:39.000
connected to the Air Traffic Control Organization, which in Chile has in many countries

1021
01:21:39.239 --> 01:21:43.359
under the umbrella of the air Force. Okay, and they released some videos,

1022
01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:46.199
most of which I had seen already. It's the same thing, you

1023
01:21:46.239 --> 01:21:50.239
know, with the Brazilian documents.
Everybody's talking about the Brazilian documents, which

1024
01:21:50.920 --> 01:21:55.640
thanks in part to a j Jeva
air you know, he's obtained and now

1025
01:21:55.680 --> 01:22:00.920
it's true they're releasing all these documents
and Jeri is putting them online. You

1026
01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:03.760
know, that's that's great because we
can everybody can access them. But the

1027
01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:09.720
truth is that most of those documents
I already had a lot of This is

1028
01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:12.920
happening with a lot of these releases
of documents. What happens is in the

1029
01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:16.680
old days, a lot of these
countries did not have like freedom equivalent to

1030
01:22:16.720 --> 01:22:20.960
our Freedom of Information Act. So
what would happen is that occasionally, in

1031
01:22:21.359 --> 01:22:28.840
general, someone would informally be classic
the fact of the classified documents and give

1032
01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:31.439
them to some apologists, to some
organization or some scientists saying, oh,

1033
01:22:31.520 --> 01:22:34.720
yeah, you want to know about
that airliner case or whatever, Well here's

1034
01:22:34.760 --> 01:22:40.760
the documents. And so once the
documents were, you know, available,

1035
01:22:40.880 --> 01:22:45.000
with someone hand them, then they
would potocopy them and then everybody would have

1036
01:22:45.079 --> 01:22:48.119
them. But they were not part
of a legal process, official process.

1037
01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:54.520
So although I think there's some new
documents in the Brazilian but a lot of

1038
01:22:54.520 --> 01:22:57.680
it once that I had, I
have already seen I had them, and

1039
01:22:57.760 --> 01:23:00.479
I believe this is the case.
They can Canadian documents. This is not

1040
01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:04.840
new. The Canadian government has been
releasing documents for many years. They're probably

1041
01:23:04.840 --> 01:23:11.359
releasing it's an ongoing process. So
even the British Ministry of Defense they were

1042
01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:15.600
had released previously, right. But
and that that gets me excited talking about

1043
01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:20.880
this stuff because we're probably due for
another batch of British files pretty soon here.

1044
01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:25.439
Yeah, so hopefully they come soon
and remember download them quick, yes,

1045
01:23:25.479 --> 01:23:29.119
otherwise you have to pay this the
queen yep, or you're gonna have

1046
01:23:29.159 --> 01:23:32.600
to pay the Queen the station the
Queen Her Majesty's station area and they'll forget.

1047
01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:36.680
Those are copyrighted by the Queen.
It is so weird. Can't use

1048
01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:42.640
government or earth that actually puts the
copyright on official documents. An official document

1049
01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:44.880
by it's not a commercial thing,
you know, I mean, it's played

1050
01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:48.119
by taxpayers. But the British do
put the copy of the crown copyrights.

1051
01:23:48.159 --> 01:23:51.279
It's called that's funny. Although I
don't think that, I mean, I

1052
01:23:51.319 --> 01:23:55.840
don't think that they pursued anybody.
I mean, want the documents are people

1053
01:23:56.039 --> 01:24:00.000
have heard anything like that. Well, I wanted to talk about I guess

1054
01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:04.840
pluck some steps we're dealing without the
manure, such as some of the topics

1055
01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:09.640
of the stories that you've written in
the magazine. And people keep an eye

1056
01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:13.640
on the website because we'll have the
magazine probably up in the next couple of

1057
01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:17.279
weeks where you'll be able to download
our magazine. But what were some of

1058
01:24:17.319 --> 01:24:20.760
the stories you have in there?
Well, basically as you know, well

1059
01:24:21.199 --> 01:24:25.000
our listeners probably don't know that,
but I mean, I've only been here

1060
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:28.680
for a little bit over two months. Yeah, so I came after you.

1061
01:24:29.239 --> 01:24:31.479
You know. Of course Malitia was
here in the first one and so

1062
01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:36.239
by the time I got here,
he already had put most of the magazine.

1063
01:24:36.359 --> 01:24:41.239
But I took care of all the
little sections. So I did the

1064
01:24:41.359 --> 01:24:45.399
news stories. But of course the
news stories, because news is the one

1065
01:24:45.479 --> 01:24:47.720
element I call it perishable, you
know, if you wait too many months

1066
01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:51.840
by the time your publication comes.
And this used to happen to prin magazines

1067
01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:55.840
all the time, you know,
monthly or buy monthly magazine. So we

1068
01:24:55.960 --> 01:25:00.600
decided to put most of them on
the web. So I was a story

1069
01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:04.359
about the Japanese first Lady and her
comments and the Russian navy one and uh

1070
01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:11.359
and the Chinese eclipse footage. But
when people get the magazine they'll see those

1071
01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:15.960
stories. Uh. Then I did
a few other sections to uh. Unfortunately

1072
01:25:16.079 --> 01:25:19.520
this is not a happy section,
but it's still important. The memorial page

1073
01:25:19.560 --> 01:25:24.199
we call it, and we had
I wrote all of that. We attribute

1074
01:25:24.239 --> 01:25:28.800
to people like John Michelle and John
Keel and Richard Hall. A lot of

1075
01:25:28.880 --> 01:25:32.439
them are getting really old. Exactly. Our field has been long enough now

1076
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:36.720
that this is it may be a
regular feature. Not we want, not

1077
01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:42.960
that we want to, but it's
just nature right all the major of the

1078
01:25:43.039 --> 01:25:46.800
feature stories. I only have one
major story there, and it's a very

1079
01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:54.920
interesting one. I interviewed the filmmaker
Randall Nickerson, who was a friend of

1080
01:25:55.000 --> 01:26:00.279
the late John mac and also by
Hopkins, and he reopened that famous case

1081
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:05.840
in at the real school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, remember with the UFO and

1082
01:26:06.359 --> 01:26:12.239
landed and they came and sixty two
children, all the kids. So it's

1083
01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:15.640
a really fascinating case. And even
though John Mack had worked on it,

1084
01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:20.319
and I think it was his intention
to do a documentary after his untimely death,

1085
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:27.079
that was left unfinished, and then
Dominique Kalimopoulos, who was working with

1086
01:26:27.159 --> 01:26:32.159
John mc brought Randall Nickerson. First
idea was that he would just edit the

1087
01:26:32.279 --> 01:26:36.640
material and just make a documentary with
what he had, what they had,

1088
01:26:36.720 --> 01:26:41.319
what the John mckinstood had. But
when he saw this stuff, this guy

1089
01:26:41.399 --> 01:26:44.680
got so excited and said, well, this is such an important story that

1090
01:26:44.800 --> 01:26:47.119
we should not just use the material
you have, but why don't we go

1091
01:26:47.319 --> 01:26:53.680
back and now trace some of the
witnesses who at the time that were between

1092
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:57.840
like eight and eleven years old or
something like that. Now they're all kids

1093
01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:02.840
in their twenties and interview them and
also, you know, find other witnesses

1094
01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:08.479
and on. So I guess they
approved this idea. They got some funding

1095
01:27:08.640 --> 01:27:12.840
and he went to South Africa,
mostly to South Africa. He did of

1096
01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:15.520
course go to Zimbabwe too, but
because as you know, the economic situation

1097
01:27:15.720 --> 01:27:20.279
and the political situation is so bad
in Zimbabwe, that country is the basket

1098
01:27:20.359 --> 01:27:28.199
case and it's been falling apart for
years. Practically all the kids that he

1099
01:27:28.359 --> 01:27:31.680
was able to locate had all emigrated. They had all moved to South Africa

1100
01:27:32.079 --> 01:27:36.840
or economic reasons or political reasons or
whatever personal reasons so he was able to

1101
01:27:38.000 --> 01:27:43.399
locate a lot of the witnesses.
He located a lot of additional witnesses who

1102
01:27:43.439 --> 01:27:46.960
had never been interviewed by mac or
by the late Cinthia Hind also from Zimbabwe,

1103
01:27:47.000 --> 01:27:53.880
who originally had documented the case,
or by the press because the case

1104
01:27:53.960 --> 01:27:56.600
got a lot of attention. The
BBC was there and everything, but it

1105
01:27:56.760 --> 01:28:00.239
was within the next you know,
the few weeks after the incident. What's

1106
01:28:00.239 --> 01:28:04.159
forgotten and what he discovered is this
was much bigger than what people realize.

1107
01:28:04.359 --> 01:28:06.560
Well, actually, I'm gonna have
to cut you off because we're a boat

1108
01:28:06.560 --> 01:28:10.960
out of time. But I have
to read it. They can read it

1109
01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:15.720
in the magazine. Also another couple
of great stories on the Mexican philosopher who

1110
01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:20.119
had a really unusual story. Yeah, and the Vietnam, which is great

1111
01:28:20.119 --> 01:28:25.800
because I have never seen another story
on Vietnam and UFOs And those two stories

1112
01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:29.520
are on our website. So hopefully
you're already there listening to the show,

1113
01:28:29.960 --> 01:28:31.920
So go ahead to the front page
and check us out. Yeah, we'll

1114
01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:38.840
be posting the review that I did
also for the magazine on the James folks.

1115
01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:41.479
Oh yeah, I know what,
I know what. I Yeah,

1116
01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:45.000
that will be there probably tomorrow.
Great, so we're out of time.

1117
01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:49.560
Thanks for being on the show.
And actually we'll have Maricio in a couple

1118
01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:53.680
of weeks because these guys I want
to have on the show periodically. So

1119
01:28:54.199 --> 01:28:56.840
you know, if Antonio sees a
movie and he wants to talk about it,

1120
01:28:56.920 --> 01:29:00.199
we'll have him on the show and
he'll share his thoughts or any thing

1121
01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:03.079
like that. So I have these
got on regularly. But from here on

1122
01:29:03.199 --> 01:29:06.640
out, be sure to check out
the web page because we've always got new

1123
01:29:08.279 --> 01:29:12.520
information and news and feature articles from
all of us there. In fact,

1124
01:29:12.560 --> 01:29:15.479
I'm going to have one up and
this is breaking on some cattle mutilations that

1125
01:29:15.640 --> 01:29:20.560
happen again out in Colorado. So
you heard me talk about I think I

1126
01:29:20.640 --> 01:29:29.039
told you that's the only one kind
of motivation that I kind of investigated where

1127
01:29:29.079 --> 01:29:31.800
they started and where a lot happened. So be sure to check us out

1128
01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:35.800
next week be able to be sure
to check out the website. We won't

1129
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:41.399
or two weeks from now because next
week is Thanksgiving as a Turkey day,

1130
01:29:41.479 --> 01:29:45.399
so we have to take a break
off a break and actually my ETU and

1131
01:29:45.439 --> 01:29:49.479
Antonio are coming over to my moms. We're going to have some Thanksgiving holiday

1132
01:29:49.560 --> 01:29:56.159
dinner and be great. But you
guys have a great Thanksgiving and check us

1133
01:29:56.159 --> 01:30:36.680
out. In a couple of weeks
audio okay I land Bat called gay Land,

1134
01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:45.600
Maten called gating with il, Matt
called parting with bad Land, Bat

1135
01:30:46.159 --> 01:30:47.520
called getting ba