Love Talk Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with your host Alejandro Rojash.
Hello, everybody, it's good to be back. It's Alejandro Rojas and you
are listening to Open Minds Radio and I'm putting in the chat right here.
It's sweet now that we have our website up and everything, it's a one
stop shop. In order to listen to the radio. In order to watch
the radio over stream, all you have to do is go to openmind dot
tv Slash Radio. We're actually just go to openminds dot tv and click on
the radio link. So here is where you can see video. Because many
people were asking last week, how can we see the video? How can
we see the video? And the video wasn't working last week so you couldn't,
but now you can, and look there I am and I'm so furry.
I'm furry this week and I was last week and you probably won't see
this next week. It's a long story, but uh, I don't know
why. It makes me feel a little bit like the guy from Pearl Jam
and I can't remember his name, and I'm trying hard not to do it,
but I'm just I'm gonna have to do my impression alone. Less buck
the table and not a lot of empty room. Sounds just like him,
don't I don't call me Dotta, not the Goby. Anyway, we have
a great guest today. We have Antonio Khunaus, who I have the pleasure
Eddy Vedder or someone in the chat got his name, thank you, that's
who it is. Someone in the chat got his name right. But we
have one of my co workers here, Antonio hu Naios, and it's a
great pleasure. I have some great coworkers, some researchers who have been around
for a very long time decades, and Antonio is our guest in the studio.
So if you're watching on the U stream at open Minds dot tv,
you're going to be able to see him here and some pictures of him in
the past with some of the researchers he's worked with, which is just about
everybody he got to work on the Rockefeller Initiative. If you're a listener to
the show, you've heard us talk about Lawrence Rockefeller and how he was looking
into UFOs like there he is, and then also he was some people don't
know you know lately, I know Michael Sawas some others have made a big
deal about possible back meeting at the UN, but there were meetings in the
UN in the past and Antonio was there. Also. Antonio has done a
lot of research and even written a book on Russian UFO history and file,
so we'll talk about that. So it's really exciting because Antonio has been here
researching the phenomena for a very long time. Lots of great stuff to talk
about, and I likeily to get to sit a couple of cubicles away from
him, and the cubicle in between us is occupied by Marizio Bayata, the
editor and the chief of the magazine that we're going to have out us soon
here and hopefully in the next week or two. But Antonio and him are
working on that, and we'll have Marizio on the show in a couple of
weeks. We can't have him next week because that's Thanksgiving, although having Mauritio
on Turkey Day might be fitting, but we'll have him in a couple of
weeks because he's also done a lot of great speller research. And you can
read both of their stories, all of our stories that we write on our
web page as well on the front page of open mind dot tv. Speaking
of our website. On the front page. You'll also get our daily UFO
headlines, because, as I always emphasize, which I think is terribly interesting,
is that UFOs are in the news all the time. All of these
are links to conventional news, you know, regular newspapers out there, not
UFO websites. Once in a while I'll pop one of those in there when
there's some big news on the UFO website, but that's rare. Typically these
are you know, papers like the Washington Times, the Sun, biggest paper
out there in London, or San Francisco Chronicle had one recently. Just all
of these papers and local papers out there. The big news out there in
Britain, of course, it's always Gary McKinnon. You know. I always
think, well, we won't be hearing from him for a few more weeks
or a month or something, because something new happens. In his case.
Of course, this was the UFO hacker we talk about every week. Well
now it's been nothing but bad news for the guy. All I've been doing
is coming on here and saying, Garry McKinnon, he's been let down again.
But not actually that. The MP's, the Parliament and Britain have been
fighting over him, and they actually are one of some of the groups in
the Parliament want to keep him from being extradited because of his health issues.
I guess you sue a sidle right now. They're afraid that if they send
him to America, he's going to kill himself. And I gotta say,
come on, you know, if that's how you people in Britain think of
America, it's not that that. Although American prisons I guess I shouldn't say
they're probably pretty bad. Luckily I wouldn't know, but I'm sure some of
our coworkers. I wonder if Antonio knows. We'll have to ask him and
in hard time, but McKinnon might get up. He might. They're debating.
They have the weirdest departments out there. They have. The Home Office
is one of the group of MPs and I think they're the ones who were
don't want mckinna to be They want him to be extra extradited. And then
there's Home Affairs is another group, and they don't want him to be extradited.
So it's kind of weird out there in Britain. But they're fighting over
it, so he might not go away. Lots and lots of signings.
Otherwise you're going to see, you know, all over the place, some
pictures and some UFOs in the UK everywhere. However, I think this was
an interesting story, and this is because it comes from you know, where
I used to live. But the Balloon people, the people who hoaxed the
balloon because they were on that wife swap and they were the UFO family,
they pled guilty to the Hopes chargers, So they're no longer trying to pretend
that they were innocent and they didn't hoax this whole thing. They've admitted,
okay, to hoax, we're guilty, and hopefully I think that that allowed
them to keep their children because they were in trouble of you know, going
to jail and having their children taken away from them. So I guess that
it's looking like the wife will probably get off with not doing any time,
but Dad might spend some time in jail with Gary McKinnon talk and UFOs.
Maybe he'll finally get a talk figure out the truth behind the UFOs there and
then finally this is a neat story, and we can talk to Antonio because
Antonio he speaks like several different languages. He's been all over the world,
and I know he's got some insight into Chinese upology. But this gentleman named
Zang Yi Fang, who's a physics professor. He's actually we were talking about
a convention they had over there and China recently to talk about UFOs. This
is a guy who put it on. But there's an interview online and it's
Chinese and subtitled and you could read that. It's kind of cool because he's
really into UFOs and everything and seems like a great guy. By the way,
they get huge attendance at their UFO conferences out there, So you know,
you guys who are listening to the show, what's coming up Laughlin the
UFO Congress. It's not that expensive. You know, you can room meet
with someone. I'm going to be there, Antonio Mariccio and the whole Open
Minds crew is going to be there, So come hang out with us,
come see us at the UFO Congress coming up here. Just go to Ufocongress
dot com. It's a week long UFO conference with all kinds of stuff going
on. So even if you can just come for a couple of days,
it's worth it's definitely worth checking out. But enough about UFO news. That
is everything fit to print. Let us talk about let me put this out
here again. Video not Open minds dot TV for people who because people are
always in the blog chop chats and how do I look at the video?
Well there's how you do it, and there's chat rooms in both places.
If you want to listen on blog talk, you could go there, or
if you want to come to Open Mind to that TV and watch the video
and chat, you can do that too. And look, there's Antonio right
there. I can see him in the video. Antonio Juneos, Welcome to
the show regularly. Pleasure Yep, it's a pleasure to have you. So
it's been a lot of fun. Luckily, I've got to talk to you
a bit about your history, but I want to go way back at first.
Unluckily we have lots of pictures to show you way back, but I
wanted to talk about how you first got involved with this whole thing. Right
Well, really, I became involved already in the United States. I came
to this country in nineteen seventy five, even though I was born in New
York, because my father was a Chilean diplomat and had worked at the United
Nations. The first time that I even became exposed to the idea of UFOs
was, like I guess millions of other people, I saw the Boondanican movie
at a downtown theater in Santiago, Chile in nineteen seventy two, like The
Chariots of the Times of the Gods and Spanish is called the Cuezos the Putudo
Memories of the Future, and it kind of blows my mind. I had
never thought of any of these things. I was a science journalist in Chile
back in those days, and I was, I guess, somewhat open minded
with regard to biropsychology and archeological mysteries, things like that I did write about,
but not much about UFOs. I was pretty skeptical, and so I
understand why people are skeptic, because I once there. It's, I guess,
is what I called skeptical by ignorance, as opposed to you know,
the professional debunker who yeah, yeah, because that's exactly what I was.
I knew very little about the subject, and I thought there was all bunk
basically. I mean, I knew the press reported on flying saucers, even
in Chile, but I just didn't get much thought about it. And the
reason I thought there was very little to it is because I was a science
columnist for a weekly magazine and I was dealing with scientists all the time on
various you know, physicists, astronomers, you name it, and these people
never talked about UFOs. So I assumed that since science, if upos were
real, scientists would be all excited and on the trail of it. Since
they weren't, that meant that there probably wasn't much about dufos. So that
was my attitude. I remember reading a book which was put by Contact Tee
and Peru. I visited Ganimities, which was the best seller. So I
read it not because I was interested in the subject, but because it was
a popular bestseller and everybody was reading it about and yeah, it intrigued me.
I remember after finishing the book, this would have been about nineteen seventy
four, maybe going and we had a house in the beach, my family
in near Santiago, and I remember looking at the skies, you know,
looking for UFOs, and I had a telescope. I wasn't astronomy, but
really that was not my subject. Then I came to the United States in
nineteen seventy five, and I was in New York City. Well, initially
I lived in Miami briefly, and then in Washington, DC. But eventually
I moved to New York City by seventy seven, seventy six actually, And
in seventy seven, my brother, one of my brothers, and she'll send
me these newspaper clipics about a very strange case of the it's known as the
Corporal of this case, very strench case happening with the military patrol in the
north of Chile in the desert. Which was the oddest thing because I was
not into the subject, so why didn't it was kind of the destiny thing.
He sent me these clippings. And on the same day that I received
the clippings on the mail. Of course, everything was done by post office
mail back in those days. And I lived in the East Village in New
York City, Manhattan, and I walked to a place called the gent Spot,
which was a famous news stand in that in our neighborhood, and I
see this altern it the newspaper called the New York Daily Planet, you know,
like the Daily Planet, like Superman. So I'm looking at it.
It looked pretty cool. Paper and it had a whole section on UFOs and
I said, oh great, I just got this story from Chile and I
was trying to get in roads in journalism in the United States and this looked
like an alternative paper you didn't need connections to get in. So I went
and I wrote the story basically, and my English wasn't too good, so
my friends had to kind of edit the grammar. And I walked into the
newspaper. The editor of publisher was a guy called Mike Lackman, who I
became friends with and later was the author of this book called Alien Rock about
the rock and gold Stars and UFOs, which I also worked on, but
that was like thirty years later. And he take a look at the article
and he said, great publishers, And so that became my very first year
for article. And then did you continue to write for him? I would
have accept that they run out of money, as the paper clothes now briefly,
and I'm sure some of our listeners may be familiar with the cases twice,
Yeah, I wasn't familiar. Told old at the time, wasn't all
over the well mean, even the National Inquiry did a big extory after time.
It's a very fascinating case. Basically, what you had. You had
a military patrol of seven soldiers in the corporal and they were camping near some
stables in the in the very remote area of chill And near the border with
Bolivia. It's a high desert area and they were sleeping. It was late
at night. But one soldier was as a scent, you know, there's
acting as a guard, as a watchman, and he sees this UFO that's
coming down near the patrol. Actually he sees two UFOs, but the other
one is on the other side of the hill and that we don't know whatever
happened to that one. But the other one comes near the patrol. So
he wakes up all the you know, his colleagues, and they're all scare
because this thing is big and it's hovering, and it's got blinking lights and
all that. It's at night, so they cannot see very well the details
of the shape of it. Now the leader is the corporal. His name
was about this corporal, valved or armandel Alde. He tells the soldiers that
they should all stick together, but later he relates that he heard like a
voice inside his brain basically urging to walk towards the objects. So even though
he gives instructions to the soldiers they should stay together, he walks towards the
object. He disappears for about twenty minutes. It's not clear exactly how he
disappears. That well, the soldiers see him walking towards the UFO and then
he's no longer there. Then this is where the story starts getting really strange.
Twenty minutes later, he reappears, but behind the patrol. Nobody saw
him walking from the object towards the camp. He's suddenly he's behind He's in
a state of shock and near amniesia and stuff and incoherent. Then the soldiers
and then he passes out. The soldiers. Notice two things that you know
in the army, Well, you probably haven't been in the army by any
of our listeners that have, or people know this. You have to shade
every day. You already will be in trouble right now. I'm more like
I've got the career shape in the navy. You can have beards, but
at least in the British Navy keep you warm on the right. I guess
it from the old days and the ship anyway, So he has a five
day growth on his beard as a soldier, he had shaved the previous morning.
Then they noticed the second effect. He had a wristwatch. You remember
the old wristwatches with a calendar. The clock had stopped after fifteen minutes,
but somehow the date showed five days in the future. So you had a
mechanical effect in a physiological effect. Now later about a two years, and
now maybe more about four or five years. It was an attempt to debunk
the story because what happened is about this became an Christian fundamentalist, and so
he said some strange things and so on. But I don't think that invalidates
though the original story. This was the time of the military dictatorship in Chili
Pinochet. It was a very very strict discipline, very Germanic type of organization,
especially the army, and these guys would have been lying, hoaxing,
doing anything, they would have been immediately with charged and nothing like that happened.
The story eventually got out, it was published in all the press.
As far as I know, the patrol were separated. They were sent to
different regiments, which is common in other UFOL stories. They don't want the
people to stick together. To reinforce their stories, and the soldiers were just
doing the military service. So after two years or whatever, one year they
were back in civilian life. But the corporal was an army man, you
know, he was doing a career and he stayed in the army. Eventually
he became a sergeant and he retired as a sergeant. So that that alone
tells me that there was not and the army I guess kept him from talking
to the past. Yes, at the time they did. What happened is
the story got out. This is pretty strange too. When the right after
the incident, the patrol were going back to the nearest town, which is
called Putre, and from there I guess, to go back to the viewing
it and report the incident. However, the first person they met was not
any official, but was a school teacher well who happened to be interested in
UFOs in the middle of nowhere. I mean, this would be like if
you're in the you know, in the desert in Arizona, now New Mexico,
somewhere in the middle of nowhere, and the one guy they meet not
only is and he had also had a tape recorder. It's like everything was
I guess you know, meant to be that way, so immediately recorded an
interview, which is also extraordinary because he interviewed all the witnesses, the seven
soldiers in the corporal, one hour after the incident. That almost never happened,
right, I mean think the best takes a couple of days or something.
Here they were interviewed instantly. Well, since the guy was not in
the army, he went back to Arica, which is the main city in
that area. It's a port, and he told the local newspaper there called
Aftrea the a Rica Star. Uh. They were ready to publish it,
but because there was the military leadership, the governor of Africa, who was
a military man, censored the story. However, the press was set up
with censorship at the time because everything was being censored after the coup. This
was the military coup in nineteen seventy three, and they pressed had to go
along with political stories. You know, they couldn't fight the military and that.
But this was a UFO story. This was different, and this time
there was pressure on the government saying enough we've been censored and everything else,
let us publish. And finally the military about a month later they gave in
and they allowed us. They probably didn't mistake because by censories they just increased
the value of the story. So finally it was published front page all over
the main newspapers Mekula, which would be like the New York Times. There
wasn't both frontage everywhere the whole transcript of the interview with that Ada had done
with the soldiers. And that's how I got hold of the story. Many
years later, I did try to interview the Baldez, but he still in
the army and I could not locate him. Another big newspaper did. They
got official permission from the army to interview him, but he didn't say anything.
He said, now it's not the time to talk of what they went
through the charade that he was going to be interviewed. But maybe they told
him that, you know, people like but don't say anything, or maybe
he didn't want to talk. Who knows, But nothing was obtained from that
interview. So after he was retired, he did go on TV and he
did there he was interviewed though, Oh he wasn't idea. Yeah, and
did he say anything about that missing time? Did he have any No,
he still doesn't remember. It's a missing time. But it's a gaining time,
you know. I mean, yeah, it's very strange. And in
all the years that I did the anthology all over the world, I only
found one case that was identical, and it happened in China in nineteen seventy
five. It was almost identical. It was also not a patrol, but
there were the guards at the military regiment. But I guess it was a
big location and there was a big distance between the gate and the you know,
the actual buildings. And there were two guys and one also was disappeared,
and then they found him like in the middle of the forest, and
he also hided growth on his beer and everything. But the interesting thing is
neither case could have influenced the other. The seventy five case in China could
have not influenced about this case because it wasn't published until the eighties. Nobody
knew about that case, and there was no way that some guys in the
north of Chile could have known about the case in China that wasn't even published.
And Vicesta, the Chinese case could have not been influenced by the Chilean
case because happened before. So that's the only similarity that I found. So
anyway, after going back now to New York, so I published this article.
Now my curiosity is you know, triggered. Of course, I could
have never thought that. I said, well, now I'm going to become
a authologists. You know, it didn't happen way, But I mean,
when you're a journalist, you deal with all kinds of stories, right,
and you may become very involved or a month for something you're doing an investigative
report about something else. Then you move on to the next story and then
the next story. But somehow this is a weird phenomenon, as you know,
and once your curiosity is triggered, you know, is awoken, and
then you want to see, well what is this but that compulsion, what's
the bottom of this? So then a few things happened. Well, first,
this was the time when I remember there was a shortly after I published
my article on the Chilean Patrol, I was still writing some columns for a
Chilean daily newspaper from New York, and the blue Book files had been published,
some of them by Brat Steiger. I put out a pocketbook was called
Project blue Book. Since I was still somewhat skeptic, I figured, well,
if anything credit if you know, the Air Force looks like a credible
So this looks like a good book to read. So I read it.
And even though people laugh about Blue Book and they said it wasn't it was
skeptical. But on the country, after I read the whole book, I
convinced me that there was definitely there was something. Yeah, because cases,
Yeah, there are great cases number one and number two. My thinking at
the time was, well, if there was nothing to UFOs, why did
the Air Force keept this project going for twenty two years? So that was
one thing. Then the timing was just right. Now we're in nineteen seventy
seven, nineteen seventy eight, and you mentioned earlier there was the famous in
your introduction, there was the famous hearing of the United Nations, right,
and this was the only really official event that ever happened at the United Nations.
There were lectures. I myself gave the lecture there a couple of times.
But these lectures that me and many other who fologists John Mack and in
the how and stand tree and how does that happen? How do you get
to lecture at the UN? Well, there's two things. This was an
official event and we'll get back to the minute, right. The others were
basically the UN Like any large organization, have employee organizations. So you get
to lecture at the UN if you're invited by one of the employee associations and
it then it is run by something called the UN Staff Recreational Council, and
it can be anything. Can be a soccer game, can be a science
fiction movie club, can be a chess club or yoga classes whatever. So
obviously it doesn't have an official status. This is just that. In my
case, it was a group called the Biopsychology Association or Society. Par Psychological
Society was run by an Egyptian translation translator called Mohammed Ramadan and it was fascinated
by UFOs. It later changed the name to Seats and basically they were inviting
speakers. How many people when attend those, well, it varies. Sometimes
they were actually held at the dog Back Hammer's called Auditorium, which is an
actual auditorium for several hundred people. There was even this imposium held there in
around nineteen ninety two, I believe, and they had hundreds of people.
I lecture once there too, so that could be attended by many people the
others were usually in briefing rooms. And how many people did you get ten
twenty thousand, Well, at the big lectures travel at the one of the
auditorium, I forgot how many of god, there might have been one hundred,
one hundred and fifty leeve Now interesting. What's interesting of course being inside
the UN and this is all pre ninety eleven, it was much easier to
walk in than U went and all that, so you could invite some guests,
some outside guests. The only thing that was particularly interesting of doing it
in the UN is like you would would notice this on the elevators and all
that, and you could theoretically anybody that worked on the building could attend.
They were free, so you could have an ambassador or someone like that if
it was interested, you know. But they absolutely had no official status,
in other words, that they didn't go into the proceedings of the UN.
They were not transcripts made. It was just for the employees. But some
UFO speakers they made a big pr about it, and they made it sound
like they were giving you know, big briefings and things. But that's not
true. And I'm gonna put that in your bio briefed the UN informally,
you can say. Now in nineteen seventy eight, it was a different story.
Now you had a head of state, in this case Sir Eric Gary
from the little island of Grenada in the Caribbean, and this man was obsessed
with UFOs. He had tried to initially involved the Organization of American States,
which is the local organization for the Americas. They didn't give him the time
of the day anyway. It was a very small country, had just become
independent, had only about one hundred thousand people population, but it still was
a member of the UN. And when the General Assembly comes any all the
head of states get to talk, and as the head of state, you
can talk whatever you want. So he brought up the UFU subject and what
he wanted to do was to create a UFULL Study Group out of the Outer
Space Committee. And they actually made an official motion. Well this was in
nineteen seventy seven, the initial stage and to create this, and they passed
it what is called a resolution forty two dash forty four something like that.
I don't have the papers in front of me, but that is an official
document. And he was sent to many countries. Most countries ignored it.
There were few that responded. India, interestingly enough, was one of the
countries that responded luke warm, but at least responded. There were a couple
of other small islands, say Shells whatever responded. And then in nineteen seventy
eight he convened this hearing at the UN Political Special Committee. This was a
totally official meeting. There were transcripts you can still get the transcripts from the
UN. And he had a panel of experts there and including doctor Allen Heinek
and Shaq Ballet. Gordon Cooper, the astronaut, also was involved, but
not at that hearing, but previously they had a private meeting with the Secretary
General, who was an Austria called Kurt Wallheim, and Gordon Cooper was present
there. Also there was a witness, Lieutenant Colonel A. Coin, the
famous helicopter case in Ohio nineteen seventy three. One I shouldn't mention, I
guess for those who don't know what. Gordon Cooper he had a sighting where
he saw a craft land and filmed it at was that Nellis Edwards Edwards Air
Force Base. Well, and he had almost confiscated Yeah, well we had
two sightings he had the first well the first sighting because this is only in
his biography. The first was in Germany chasing UFO. Yeah, as a
fighter pilot in Germany he saw UFOs and then in the one in Edwards he
did. He didn't see it, but he saw the film right and he
heard the stories from them. And there was a UFO that landed on the
dry lake bed and I wouldn't say the film was confiscating. He was ordered
by his superiors to be put in a container and sent to watching them that
that was the end of it. Yeah, Gordon Cooper. I met him,
actually, he had the honor of meeting him at the conference in Fortsmouth,
New Hampshire has the move on conference that used to be put in New
Hampshire, the only time that to my knowledge that he actually spoke at a
UFO conference. And what else was at the U n oh well other than
coin Vallet that was it. I think the Piagures. Now there was another
man who was involved previously with Prime Minister Gary, but him and Heineg didn't
get along. And he was a very colorful personality and his name is Coleman
bon Kevinski and he was one of my Ufour Mentors really really was Garan colonel
and he had a small organization in New York called Kophone, the Continental Ufour
Network. And he was a great guy, very very colorful guy. Why
didn't him and Heinek get along because Coleman was very blunt. He was a
military man, and so he believed in like and he believed in saying things,
you know, like without any pree ambles or and Heinig was the opposite.
It was a very cautious man. And so initially Coleman had been involved
with Gary, but then when Heinig became involved, Heinich made it a condition
that I'll work with you, but no Coleman. Coleman was there in the
basically he was at the press conference. So there was a press conference and
he made trouble there because Coleman was the character like that. And unfortunately what
happened then came nineteen seventy nine. Maybe this thing would have gone somewhere.
Although Renata had no influence, I also believed that this, even though this
was at the height of the Cold War, that here was an issue where
both the US and then the Soviet Union agreed and they neither superpower wanted this,
so neither and they basically controlled the UN and back in those days.
So the thing was it kicksotic. You know, it would have a teris
story where who was the guy I'm sorry who sponsored and g Gary, sirh
Gary Brenada, Eric Gary did it? Wasn't there a story where he witnessed
and that passion in New York. No, No, that's a different story.
That's the Linda case, that poud Hopkins's case, and that is not
him but the Secretary General allegedly Pais Equator. Okay, who was the guy
who came after Baalheim? But that's another story. Now, in nineteen seventy
nine, Saray Gary was overthrown in a military coups in Grenada. He was
just he was all the time doing his view of full lobby. Apparently he
wasn't taking very good care of business and as a head of state even though
he was the George Washington, you know, he was the first leader of
the independent country Grenetta. But he was overthrown. Now, of course many
conspiracy people would say, well the US had a hands, but this conspiracy
I do not believe, for a simple reason, the people who overthrown Gary
were Marxists, and we're in the middle of the Cold War, and they
were Marxists, and they invite the Cubans. And I cannot think even on
the Euphotian that you would have the CIA. They would probably rather have a
US exactly upon two sets with no influence than the Commonist country. And in
fact, as you know, probably I don't know, well, I guess
you should. You probably know this to nineteen eighty four, I think Reagan
invader Granada. We sent the Marines there to get rid of the Marxists,
because then there was a second coup and they killed the guy who had his
name was Maurice Bishop, the guy that had overthrown Gary. And the second
coup they were much more hardcore. The first one was sort of a soft
Marxist, the second ones were total Marxist. So this was under Reagan and
Weinberger and those people said, no way, now we're going into They found
some excuse as there were some American students at a medical school or something and
quote to to say, you know, protect their lives. We send a
huge Flatida. And of course it took you know, about one day to
invade the country or half a day, and that was it. So Unfortunately,
after this whole episode, nobody, no other country has wanted to touch
the issue of UFOs in the United Nations. On the other hand, the
resolution that was passed under Gay is still in the books. So now that
everybody's talking about exopolitics, that would be the move. You have to actually
we have to lobby or find a country, and it could be small country.
And at one time we thought we had a candidate, which was the
little Republic of San Marino in Italy, which is exactly an independent country.
There was a hope at one time that they would take the banner, you
know, from Grenada and levine this resolution. Well maybe if they're small enough
country, all of this uthologists can get together, maybe we could get moved
on. They got a few thousand people, and we hold a coupe over
one of the small countries and yeah, they're there are city size countries,
you know, well Samrino for instance, but some Marino didn't go for it
either. We did sign a thing called the San Marino Charter or Karta,
you know, the document was this was back in night. Now we're moving
from seventy eight to ninety eight. Well, what was your role in the
U n No. Basically at that time, that was it. I might
I just went there as a journalist. Basically, Yeah, he was open
to the public. The hearing was open to the public, and I attended
it. I will say, nobody in athology back then were you covering it.
I wrote a couple of articles for the I guess it was the Chilean
papers at the Times. Yeah, and now maybe some small alternative paper in
New York or something, But that's it. That was That was even before
I started writing for the U formats around nineteen seventy nine thanks to the well
no, I think it was around seventy nine seventy eight. Well somewhere in
the late seventies, I sort of caught the tail end of what they used
to be the polpe Era UFO magazines remem Masaga Ufo Report. There was one
called Ideal for Ufo Magazine. They were very, you know, low budget,
but nevertheless they were a nuisance and they paid and everything. And I
yes, I did write for several of those magazines until they went out of
business by like the early eighties. I also wrote for some international magazines.
Thanks to the connections that Comapon Kelinski had internationally. I got some connections to
write for Spanish magazines Mundo is Conosio, which was a big magazine, and
I also wrote some other articles for Chilean newspapers, and eventually I wrote for
New York paper to the New York City Tribune, where I had a science
column. I was mostly writing about NASA and you know, exploration of Mars
and whatever its mainstream scientific is. But luckily for me, my editor was
open minded about UFOs and so every so often I would squeeze the UFO story.
And then in the nineties I was writing all over the place. I
was writing for I was the faith the columnists for ten years for Fath magazine
on UFOs, and I was writing for big Spanish magazines, and I wrote
for had a couple of stories in Omni, all over the place. So
at what point did you get involved with Rockefeller's briefing document. Yeah, this
would have been around nineteen maybe I was up ninety five. Probably I was
a pro In nineteen ninety five. I was working for the Japanese at the
time. I had some big contract in Japan. I went there three times
and then there were some pretty exciting projects and I remember that Bootsy as they
call her. Marie golbrit who was the wife of Evan Golbrith, who passed
away recently. He had been a candidate for governorship of New York. It
was an important man in New York and a banker, investment bankers on He
was ambassador of France in France, the Ronald Reagan, he was the American
ambassador in Paris. Their husband, Marie Gobet, was very interesting in UFOs
and she and Sandy Wright, a dear friend of mine who was also involved
in the early stages. They approached me. They had already done Berliner,
you know, the aviation writer and all member of Nightcap and the fun for
UFO Research, had written the original draft of the UFO Briefing document the best
available evidence, but it needed some revamping and I needed more international cases,
and it needed a serious rewriting in their opinion, and so they I think
I was recommended by various people, and so they came to me. I
remember I had an office after one of the one of the Japanese projects.
Unfortunately, I was very busy at the time, so I actually I had
to turn it down because I was under pressure to finish some major projects for
a laser disc on ufolds, and I just realistically I couldn't do it.
But I said, but this is going to end, you know, within
six months or something, this project will end, and then I might be
able to help you. So sure enough, the project did end, and
I think I contact them and they said, yeah, now that's what we
really need you, because now we have this draft and it needs to be
done. So I then I went to work for them, and I actually
worked at the office that Marie Golbert had in Madison Avenue for a few months
and we basically got that report out. We finished the report. I re
wrote considerably the original manuscript and it was finally completed in December of ninety five,
and it was really sent to the VIPs and members of Congress and all
that in early ninety ninety six, and it was only one thousand copies.
And I think we have the cover. I don't know if it's in the
in the five Yeah, we do have a cover that maybe they can show
on it. And basically that was it. Unfortunately, there were a couple
of things that happened with his project, and one is that they I don't
know. I never understood well, why this happened, because they invested quite
a bit of money and it's a long term project. And this, of
course was one of many things that Rockefeller funded, but this was one of
them. And yet even though it was supposed to be like a lobbying document
basically to be sent to important people, there was no policy whatsoever to PR
to do PR. I mean, that's the whole point. You do a
document and then you have to pressure the people, you know, if you
want to come, if you want to comp in something. Well, it
sounded like I mean, I'm looking at like Grant Cameron's presidential UFO website.
It seemed like he just wanted a document that he could give to his Rockefeller
and his colleagues and the people he was trying to influence to do something such
as the Clintons. Right, But there was no policy whatsoever. I remember
Marie Goldworth did not want to deal with the media. She was almost terrified
of having to deal with the media. And we had media coming because the
word got out mostly thanks to Mike Lackman, who was the PR man,
and he since there was a void, he basically filled that void and he
released the news. It was funny I asked. Actually he was angry with
him at the time because you know, I was a member of the thing
and he wasn't. And he was releasing it like if he had written the
document. You know, he was sending it to the page six and then
Your Post and the Daily News and everywhere, and we had no there was
no policy. There was no, no, no, nothing happened. Well,
all of Rockefeller's involvement was really not probably well no, of course,
Rockefeller was always under the scene. Yeah, that was his thing. However,
oddly enough, so in the US had very little official impact. I
mean, he went to the Clinton administration people, but nothing happened there.
He went to several congressmen, and I believe Henry Kissinger received the copy.
He was, yeah, he wasn't. The mailing list Colin Powell received the
copy. So some people like that did get it, but there was no
follow up. Not Some of these people wrote Marie Golbreth courtesy letters, you
know, and polite letters saying, you know, acknowledging received. Oh yeah,
no, that picture is good, you're showing it. Because this document
had, however, impact to my knowledge, and at least two places,
one was in France and the other one was in Chile. In France,
what happened is Marie Golbrith, as I mentioned earlier, was the wife of
the American ambassador. So and she had lived in Paris for years, so
she knew everybody, she knew, she raped everybody, and obviously if you
were the wife of the American ambassador, you're gonna yeah everybody, you know.
So the document had maximum distribution in France with important people. We also
had the cooperation of the French Space Agency with your van which now as you
know, the documents are all online. A gentleman, well, a gentleman
in the picture. So that was in France, and in France eventually led.
I think it had an influence to their own report, which was the
Cometa Report, because everybody that was in Cometa had copies of our document.
In fact, it's mentioned in the bibliography and in the text they hardly mentioned
my name of Berliner. They give all the accolades to Marie Golbert, you
know, because they knew her. Then. I was going to Chile at
that time too, very often, because it was a boom in followed in
Chile. There were many symposiums sponsored by universities and all kinds of things.
And it so happened that in Chile there was an effort was brewing to create
an official committee in the government to study UFOs. And in that picture that
just showed, I'm handing the document. Well he's reading it. But I
had just handed a copy of the document to General Ramon Vega, who was
a former Commander in chief of the Chilean Air Force, who at the time
was a senator. There he's reading the report. He actually has the page
where there's the famous painting of the Virgin Mary in the UFO, you know,
from the fifteenth century. It lurns. Yeah, so this was just
good timing. Uh. These people were trying to convince their own government that
the UFOs were worthwhile phenomenon to pursue, and here was this very elegant report.
We're not talking of the paperback edition that was put many yeys later by
Wittless Treeber, you know, as a paperback, as a pocket book.
This was the elegant with the blue cover and all that, and it really
looked like an official document. Oh yeah, I know, I hadn't seen
that until you showed that. Yeah, there's no comparaton that one who UFO
book. You know, they don't want to copy so bad, we'll try
to get them. And so it was the timing was just great. It
wasn't meant to be that way. It's just the way it happened. I
get in the document and they were amassing all the arguments, and they presented
the arguments to the Chilean government, and sure enough, the Air Force went
along and they created a small unit out of the out of the air defense
no no, the radar, the air control application, you know, organization,
and they have offices there. You know, Originally I had felt a
little negatively towards the Rockefeller document. And the reason why is when I really
got into this, when I found Careers document, oh yeah, briefing document,
I was extremely excited, and especially because he makes that free on his
website download, and so it was widely distributed, unlocked the Rockefeller and I
was, you know, you get in that conspiratorial mindset and you think was
Rockefeller trying to Career was trying to Actually Rockefeller didn't have the copyright. Was
actually the three main ufoganuations. So if there was an effort to supersit it,
it was from us, not from me, because I was all for
having it out and what were well, it was a Coalition for UFO Research.
And this the history of this goes because back in those days I was
was move On two. As you know, in the old days, I
was an international coordinator, although I didn't have much a cloud anyway, but
I tried. But back in those days it was the first time they got
some money from Bigelow. And but Bigelow said, I'm not going to give
you money to one organization or the other. You have to create an umbrella
organization and then I will give you the money to the three of them.
So they created this this coalition. It was called the Coalition for u for
Research, and it was formed by move On, the Fund for UFO Research
and KUFLES And if you read the Rocketfeller, the documented the best available evidence.
It's signed by the three directors at the time, which I think was
the call for the for the full four Walt Andrews from move On and what's
his name for Koufos, I forgot his name? Who? Yeah, But
bringing up that that object, Mark Rodiger from the kindness bringing up the subject
a career in the briefing document just because not a lot of people have much
insight into that, but you do. You were out there, and I
know it might be hard to choose your works to be diplomatic about it,
but you know, how would you explain what happened there? Well? What
happened in part was that, first of all, Greer had received money from
Rockefeller previously. Rockefeller, like I said, had funded many things, and
he funded quite a bit of large sums of money to Greer for to do
the beginning of the earlier days of the disclosure project, basically the witnesses,
to go around the world and locate witnesses and interview them. I guess Greer
had proposed a briefing documents at one time, but then the thing changed and
now Marigolvers was in charge, and even though she had been friends with Grear,
but Berliner and these guys wouldn't worked with green Year, so he had
nothing to do with our document now. Greer, when the document was finally
published, was very mad, basically and uh and he said that basically it
was I don't know if he used the word plagiarism or something like that,
but it was. First of all, he objected to the title briefing document
Briefing document is is a you know, it's a standard name for any government
document, you know, I think that's the title is generic. Yeah that
yeah, but it's a generic and briefing document is generic. You cannot say,
well, that's my title, you know. I mean, any any
organization briefing and another head of state of something does the briefing document. So
that's that doesn't make it. There's no, no, no legs to that
complaint. The other complaint was that we had supposedly used a lot of the
material. But that is also ridiculous because we use the same documents that everybody
has. I mean, Greer doesn't have a hold over whatever the Strategic Air
Force incidents of nineteen seventy five, or the Ran case of nineteen seventy six,
or the then the Charles the Colonel Hold memo. I mean I had
those documents back in the seventies, long before Breer was even in the map,
and so did Verliner. So we really didn't use a material. We
used material that was also used by Greer, and it was used by Timothy
Good, and it was used by Comanta. I mean the documents are the
same. So Greer made a big fuss. I don't in my opinion,
I don't think he behaved very well because he had received money also from Rocketfellers.
So you don't bite as the hands that feed you. Number one.
Number two, he didn't have much of the case. Unfortunately. I wasn't
involved in that aspect. Yeah, well, then I think Greer was also
giving copies of the document or something, and then Verliner objected and I think
they threatened him with lawyers or something like that. Right, Yeah, there
was a whole battle, but that I was not involved, not with that
part of it. Behind the scenes in neupology, but maybe sometimes not so
behind the scenes in neupology. There's lots of mind. But I mean,
it was still good. I think it is still great that career at least
continued on and got his document so well distributed. Well, he did his
thing, we did ours. There were some similarities in ours is much more
conservative because ours was really meant to be sent to all these people and for
them to really read read it carefully. Was sent to the administration, I
mean, and yeah, now from presidential UFO, we can see that it
actually appears in some of these documents about the Rockefeller initiative. He's one.
We can see that you know, Rockefeller was working with Hillary Clinton and through
her. Oh you know, Rockefeller himself had not any input in the in
the dressing of our documents. Nobody ever pressure us saying I know because I
was working. That's what I've heard from everybody he funded. He gave him
money. Yeah they did. Yeah, we never heard anything like saying,
well you ought to discuss this and not that. No. Marigobrick, on
the other hand, yes, she was sort of the project coordinator and she
was the one seeing Rockefeller. But but yeah, giving from what I know
of him and the way he dealt with later with the Stirrup Report, Yeah,
basically, like you say, he would give the money and then let
people do what they what they would do with it. So and then well,
let's move on to your book on Russian UFL. Well, that was
an old one actually, that's much earlier than the Rockefeller one. That that
was published in nineteen ninety one. Probably how you get involved with Well,
that actually came when at the very tail end of the Soviet Union it was
still called and we have the cover there somewhere too. I thought of print.
Now, But Antonio, are you a communist? No, that initially
came about in I guess two ways. One was I attended a very large
symposium that Michael Hesseman put in Frankfurt, Germany in nineteen eighty nine, and
it was one of the largest in posiums I ever attended. It had way
over a thousand people. Wow. And where was that Frankfort. Wow.
Everybody important from the United States was their freedman, Bud Hopkins, Wendell stevens
In, Coleman Van Kevinsky, in the many more, and they were people
from all over the world. But what was unusual for that time is that
for the first time ever we had a big delegation from the Soviet Union.
And this had really never happened because in the Cold War there was absolutely no
contact between Russian uthologists in the West. Occasionally the West, some article would
appear in the Russian press, you know, and even now it doesn't happen
too much. Yeah, but now you can certainly go on the Internet or
whatever and and and talk to people. I mean they do nothing and stops
them. But back then it was really impossible. I think occasionally that someone
would have with one letter and it was like a rare thing. But and
then came Gorbachev in the eighties, in the late eighties, and the Russian
society opened up, and the press, the Soviet media opened up, and
one of the things that opened up like crazy was the UFO issue. And
you were there, of course, you were the States manager at the At
the recent Pressure Tribal conferences in Las Vegas and Peter Robbins, a friend of
mine, I discussed the baroness case of Bors I think they call it.
And this is the city in Russia, large city where this UFO landed in
the in the park and and these very tall beings came out of the the
the craft and it was seen by a bunch of kids that were playing soccer
or something, as well as by other adult Willis is too well, they've
been cases like this before. But what was interesting is that this case was
picked up by the Task news agency and it was published all over Russia.
And then it was because it was published now openly in Russia, then he
was picked up by the Western media and he made even front page on the
New York Times, totally unheard of, and it was all over the world.
So now we go a few months later, we have this big conference
in Franklin, and h and Hesseman invited all this Russian as the time,
they're still Soviet mythologists, and they came and this was unique, and we
had a surgeate Bulansef, who had appeared on that UFO cover up live show.
That was an early indication that things were opening in Russia when in an
American TV show you had two Russian mythologists live via satellite from Moscow talking about
the polls that again had never happened. But that's in nineteen eighty eight.
Things were moving, you know. But here you had these people right there
and they gave talks and everything. A Colonel Morgan Chouldro, who was a
man from what was still called landing Red later became Saint Petersburg, one of
the pioneers of Russian apologies. Ubarov Ouvarov another guy from Saint Petersburg. So
I became friends with these guys. I figured that this was the hot story
of the moment, you know, because it was so new and new,
fresh storesh and I basically spent the whole it was a very large symposium.
Last the days, I forgot four or five days. I spent all the
time with them. I got a lot of material from them, and I
start collecting material from Russia, and Kolmavankeevinski, who was Hungarian, was in
contact with a lot of countries in Eastern Europe. He was getting tons of
material. Unfortunately, there was a man who actually lives here in Tempe Arizona,
was with move On, Dmitriosio, a great guy, originally Serbian,
and he's a Polyglood. He because I don't read Russian, and at the
time he was living in New York City and he made all these free translations
for us. He translated all these documents. And then also I would go
to the Victor Canting, which was the old Soviet bookstore in New York City
where they used to sell in the old days, you know, Russian propaganda
books, so you could write classic literature, told story whatever. I think.
It was an agreement in the Cowards. So the Americans had an American
bookstore in Moscow, and the Russians had won in New York and Washington or
something like that. It was usually boring, you know, Soviet life,
you know how great the Soviet Union is or whatever. But then finally it
became interesting in the eighties again with Glasnost and they were always uiful stories.
I mean I would go there like every ten days and always find some even
Soviet military magazines there was one called Soviet Soldier and another one like Air Force
Times or something like that, and they had beautiful series. Some was in
English because it was a foreign distribution. Someon was in Russian. But then
we had the nature translated. Can you remember some of these stories the more
shocking, some of them were fascinating, but just to finish the book,
So basically I assembled a lot of these stories. And it was not just
on UFOs. They had chapters on cryptozoology, you know, the Russian bigfoot
which they call Almasti and or they have a large nest type creature too,
and Lake by Kyle, Yeah, they had one. And there was stuff
about our psychology of course the Russians that had a long history of our psychology.
Russian to Pa Cabra not back in those days, but I know,
but even in America two Pacabras wasn't around. Yeah, and we published that
book was a small edition out of print. Probably we can still find it
used copies of Amazona somewhere, but it looks like cool. But yeah,
but yeah, what were some of that big stories. Well, well,
there were lots of interesting us. There was a fascinating story of a UFO
that harverd over a train. You always hear about your phone interfering you with
with the cars or even airplanes, but this is the only one that I
know of a train right, and there was a train to start Yeah,
no, I think the train was going very fast and the conductor lost control
over his and there was something in his pedometer of the train or something too.
I forgot the details, but it was fascinating and it was published in
the cover of an equivalent to like Popular Mechanics call it was a famous famous
Russian magazine Technical Molidacy like the Technology and Youth I think it's called. It
was a very popular magazine in the Soviet Union in the old days, you
know, because they had a space program and to write a lot of years
right to get Russian people to go into science and engineering. But here this
was cover story that was a fascinating case, and they investigated and they looked
at the machines and all that. Then there was of course documents that came,
but that was later. That was after the Soviet Union fail and then
that's when the late cosmonaut to Pablo Papovich, which we have an obituary on
the our forthcoming magazine, you know, Open Mind magazine. I wrote it
myself. In fact, I sent you a copy of the briefing document.
And I never met him personally, unfortunately, that I did have correspondence with
him. He sent me at flax one time. I remember thanking before the
briefing document. I didn't meet Marina Papolovitch of course with his wife, although
they later divorced. It was his first wife. He had obtained a bunch
of documents from the KGB back in ninety one, I think, and these
were the first official military documents that were declassified in Russia. It was quite
quite in use. And we had one case in our briefing document because it's
very similar to bend Waters or to some of the cases that Mounstrom and you
know, the other bases in the Strategic Air Command cases where you basically had
a UFO Harvard over a highly top secret base in Capusti Yard in central Russia,
Siberia, somewhere in the middle of Russia, and there was a jet
fighter sand and it was seen by a lot of guards. And we only
have a portion of the doc I'm sure it's much figerent, but the most
fascinating part there is that, and there's a document about it, and even
the night witness drawing which we published in a briefing document where the UFO shot
a beam of light at the hangar where they had nucleir wes wow so And
of course, like I said that, Hope, Colonel Hope always talks about
that. That was probably the most significant aspect of the Bedwater's case, at
least to him as a military man. He was always and he was always
I met Colonel Hope myself, you know, a couple of times. He
was always shocked why it wasn't a follow up on this, or probably it
was, but he was he didn't even know. I mean, if it
was, it was it was so secret that he didn't even find out.
And Colonel Hope, that's in relationship at Randall Forest, right, and he
mentions that there were beams going into the into the story and where the weapons
were and uh, and I think there was a it was a very delicate
subject because the British public wasn't supposed to know that there were nuclear weapons there,
but they were, and you know, there was a lot of it.
It was a big anti nuclear movement in Europe against the US, and
so it was touching. And like one I think it was Lord hill Norton,
not the House of Lords. So one of those I think it was
Lord hill Norton, who had been the chiefly in admiral. He said,
well, if this is not affects security, and then what does Yeah,
because the British miniature of defense kept like well, basically was the classic case
of each they kept passing the butt to each other. The Bridishers say,
well, it's not our case because it happened even though the basis they were
the landlord, right, but by all the personnel was American. So it's
an American affair because the witnesses where American and Americans. It's a British affair
because it happened in Great Britain and they kind of kept passing the butt to
each other. And one of the stories speaking of the Russian files and and
uh not the debunk, but I think that it's important some of the information
you have that I hadn't heard before about the Navy documents, well, the
KGB files, TV shows, the TV show Yeah, yeah, and some
of what you and your colleagues had found about. Yeah. Yeah, it's
not one of my favorite subjects, but because you know, unfortunately I was
interviewed there. I'm on the show. Well, initially I thought it was
great. I mean, I had James Bond, you know, Roger Moore,
Tonio U four expert Antonio who nails and he pronounces perfectly too, because
people always mispronounced my name, so that I was good. But but I
had nothing to do with I mean, I had no idea what this thing
was all about. I was I was contact by by through a friend.
I found out that this TV show was being produced. I had of course
published not only that book but many articles on on Soviet and Russian ufour cases,
so it was natural that they would want to talk to it. And
I remember I went with major filer George Fyler. They pull us together to
La They put us on a nice hotel there and we were interviewed the typical
TV show. They interviewed me for whatever forty minutes and and they only used
like two three app and except for the Dominigres case, which is a very
interesting case where there was something crash and it's a legitimate case and there photographs
was the one where there's a crash on a Russian basis. No, the
down Goes case happened on not on the military futility. That's why we know
about it. This happened in nineteen eighty six, and I wrote about it
in the newspaper at the time when I was still writing for the New York
City Tribune. And it's a fascinating case because there was a commission at that
time. The followed in Russia was under the Academy of Sciences and the Academy
of well one aspect of it. The other aspect, of course, was
secret. There were two commissions in Russia. One was the public one and
the other one was the secret one. The public one was run by the
like I said, by the National Academy of Sciences, which is unlike in
America, and America is a small organization, but in Russia it's a huge
one. There's thousands of members. And so what they had they had committees
in the major different Russian cities on what was called anomalous aerial phenomena because they
didn't want to use the name UFO because of all its connotation. So but
it was basically the same thing and these people were sientists. This was it
was a serious tough and they were very cautious and you know, documenting scientifically
these various UFO events. Meanwhile, there was another commission which was secret,
which was run by the military and the KGB. The KGD of course had
units, had agents in every military unit, any any Russian Soviet we're talking
in any Soviet ship or regiment or battalion would have always a KGB officer posted
there to make sure that ideologically, you know, everybody step in line and
you know, to control intelligence and all that. And uh so they were
also they had an actual committee and they were also keeping extensive files on UFOs.
Uh Popovich obtained some of them. George Knapp when he went to Russia
in ninety five or something also brought back a thick year of which he gave
me copies. There was some fascinating cases, including the one in Whi,
Ukraine of soo Au Solo base, when the UFO changed the codes of the
of the of the intercontinental ballistic missile. Oh really yeah, and they in
only a time. At one moment it looked that the thing was lighting up
and only the order could come from Moscow, you know, so they thought
maybe launching, Yeah, maybe it was launching and they had no control over
it. So fortunately stopped, you know, and then they went crazy and
they dismantled the whole thing to see if there was any malfunction that they couldn't
find anything. The guy who was at the bunker never saw the UFOL because
he wasn't the underground bunker, but he testified to the to where he lost
control over of the control pan. Meanwhile outside, This was in nineteen eighty
two. This, by the way, was in prime time twenty twenty one
of those programs, not twenty prime time. I think it's Yeah with Sam
Donaldson. Actually that show was broadcast there they interviewed the guy or one of
the witnesses. And at the same time that the officer and the bunker was
experiencing all this malfunction with the control panel for the nuclear weapons, the people
outside were seeing UFOs hovering over the base. So that came in those documents
that George Nap obtained. And then most recently, of course, we had
this news about the release of the Navy. Navy document we just said,
and I will touch on that, but I mean, I wanted to follow
up, just so people know. I think it's important people know when they're
being deceived and with those KGB files. The show, oh oh yeah,
sorry. The show well, so basically, so I go to this TV
production in Hollywood, Associated Independent Television, and they show me father and I
this this footage. I had never seen of it, never heard of it,
and I get my opinion, you know, yeah, I said,
it looks very clear. It looks the best we have if it's real.
But then unfortunately, in the beginning of the show they cut you know,
if it's real, I appear like endorsing it. Later they do show the
full clip. Well, eventually, though I was very suspicious. It was
an exciting program, no question about it, and they did interview some people
in Russia that that were we know they exist, like Aveanski was a phenom
mine one of the Russian apologists appears on that show. But unfortunately there's so
many holes in that story and the main well, they they mentioned that guy
Callver shagin Ovator Shagin, who was supposed to be a Russian expert, who
was the expert on this case and wrote a book about it. Now it'sa's
weird. I know, all the Russian apologists. I know it's a big
country, but I mean I heard of it. Well, not only me,
even all the Russian nobody has ever heard of this guy. And you
know it really he didn't end his but there was no book. The book
was never published. The guy never existed. So once you get that,
you already have a bad start, and uh, everything kind of fall apart.
Uh the there's the business with They claim that this UFO crash, right,
and where the video? Yeah, yeah, the turtle kind of looking,
and then they take the being uh to some medical facility I've forgotten in
which city Landing, right, I guess, and they and the three doctors
do the autopsy and stuff. It was obviously a copycat of the Santilli,
you know, because that had such a success that this company figured, hey,
we'll do one in Russia and it'll be much harder to verify things in
Russia, so we'll get away with it, That's my guess. But in
any case, they have these doctors supposedly take the autopsic make their topsy to
the being, and then they claim that the three doctors died of radiation fickness
or something like within weeks. They show the documents of the desertificates years later,
I mean when the I mean, well, this would have happened like
in nineteen sixty eight or something like that. So that was the Soviet Union.
So the desertificate should that say Soviet Russian Republic, remember, because it
was the Union of Socialist Soviet republics. But of course it's in surreally alpha
bit so for us it doesn't make a difference. But the Russian guys that
looked at this could tell that what the producers were careless and they used current
documents de certificates from the new Russia, so it says instead of Soviet Russian
Republic, it said Russian Federated Republic. Well that's after the following the Soviet
Union, so god document could not be valid for nineteen sixty eight. That's
one thing. There's a whole host officials like that I had to do with
insignias and the military uniforms and this and that. But to me, the
whole thing is a hoax. Unfortunately. Yeah and yeah, that is unfortunate,
but it's always good to find that out. I mean, for instance,
I've been talking about this picture in nineteen fifty two of the buzzing of
the White House, right, it was great to have you tell me that.
Actually, you know, we found out other lent swears and it's not
taken in nineteen fifty two, but like in nineteen fifty nine or something like
that, or even the sixties. We have the re both both Marica and
I we have different reports. I have the report that was prepared by Coleman
Gonkevinski, who was a photo analyst for the Hungarian Army. He was creator
of the Audio visual Department of the Hungarian in the nineteen thirties, so he
knew all about photography and he was totally proll UFO. So you cannot say
the guys at the Bunker or whatever. He was, you know, a
firm believer in UFOs. Yet he was honest in that case and he discovered
that he was Lenslers. My Ustio has a similar report that was done by
some Italian professor who came without each knowing of each other, came exactly to
the same conclusion. Yeah, unfortunately, there's a lot of false information in
UFOs. In it doesn't help our case. You know, if we if
we promote everything as a true UFO. Yeah, and I like to get
as much information out to people as possible. Yeah, but yeah, let's
move on then to those Navy. Well, I'm still really trying to track
down the story of the navy on my only son of personal thing there is
that when this story came out just about two months ago, right, I
had just started working for Open Minds, and Marisa put me in charge of
the news section for our magazine, and I said, well, obviously this
is one of the main stories we had. Of course scored Mackinna and there
as well, and yeah, I had to revise that story like three times,
you know, before we closed the magazine. Now you have to revise
it again. So it's too late now, I think where we're practically going,
and we were finished with a text for the magazine. But anyway,
going back to the Russian so uh, they were all quoting the doctor Vlady
and doctor Ajaja. Probably most of your listeners are not familiar with him.
Yeah, but he's one of the great legendary upologists in Russia. Originally it
was doctor Viegel, who was a professor of the Moscow Aviation Institute, and
he was really the founding father of Russian apology. But he passed away in
nineteen eighty eight, and the other figure was Ajaja. He's he's eighty.
Oh yes, I am there with him and Marina Popovic. And this was
in an interview done in Tokyo in nineteen ninety one. They were I need
yeah, So I met both of them and I interviewed the good doctor.
He's much older now and Asraja was a submarine captain and he's also an oscanographer,
so his expertise, his professional expertise is the oceans. He later became
a neupologist. He drafted the Christiannaire, the UFO reporting form for the Russian
Merchant Marine. He did that so when the story came out, he was
quoted in all these Russian resources because he's obviously an expert, and he gives
the percentage. He says that a large number of cases in Russia as well
as everywhere else, but he's specifically talking of Russia happened in bodies of water
where it's lakes or UFOs or big rivers. So but the one I have
not I'm still working on that story and I will as soon as we got
news on it, we will of course post it on our website. We're
still trying to get hold of the actual documents. We have not seen the
documents themselves. Now. I think that part of it is that the Russian
yes, it's great that they're releasing and I assume this is true because it
was reported all over the Russian press, so I didn't hear any denial,
you know. So I'm sure they're released, but they're not like the French,
or the British, or even the Brazilians who now or the Danish with
all these other countries. Now when they're releasing the documents, they're almost immediately
posting them online. I think the Russian Navy is a little bit more.
They don't want probably lots of people going online to their site or whatever,
so you probably have to request them by letter or something, or leave them
at their library or something like that. But if they are the classified,
sooner or later we'll get hold of them. Yeah, so I'm looking.
I still have not seen the actual documents. I was looking for some of
the documents that we have, you know, from the from the George Knapp.
They'll see it. And I did find a couple of onths from Navy.
By most of those documents are air force though well in ninety one,
Yes, those were mostly Air Force two. Okay, weren't there some Navy
ones there? At least one in there. I did not. I'm not
sure. Okay, okay, I'm not sure. We do have in my
files. There are some other cases with Navy, so we will be posting
to some additional material I know and I had received when we sent out that
message about those files. Bruce mcabee said that a Japanese researcher had told him
about at least one of those Navy Russian stories back and then another. It
could be because I don't have the entire they'll see if the Vigia there were
like one hundred and thirty high documents and I only have I don't know a
few dozens, so it's possible I do have, I believe in index of
it. I would have to take a look at it. Now going back
to Chile, now, there was an interesting story too of a former commander
in chief of the Chilean Navy who gave a TV interview a few years ago,
about two thousand and two, maybe something like that, and his name
is Martinis Bush, no relation to Guity George and this man former commander in
chief of the Navy and Chile is a very long country with a very long
navy, you know, very very rich naval tradition because they saw so much
ocean. And you know, we have the father of the Chilean Navy,
the British admiral actually Lord Cochran, and from the days of the War of
Chilean Independence in the eighteen tens and twenties. So in any case, this
guy goes on TV and he tells the reporter that, yes, there are
many cases in the Chilean Navy with UFOs and when I was a young officer,
I have two experiences. Then he goes and he helps experiences and that's
incredible. That's pretty cool. Yeah, when you have a former commander in
chief, you know, but we haven't seen documents. There were I think
you mentioned in one of your earlier TV shows, I mean radio shows.
There was some videos were released by the Chilean military by this commission that is
connected to the airpace so I'm not actually an air force. Well, it's
connected to the Air Traffic Control Organization, which in Chile has in many countries
under the umbrella of the air Force. Okay, and they released some videos,
most of which I had seen already. It's the same thing, you
know, with the Brazilian documents. Everybody's talking about the Brazilian documents, which
thanks in part to a j Jeva air you know, he's obtained and now
it's true they're releasing all these documents and Jeri is putting them online. You
know, that's that's great because we can everybody can access them. But the
truth is that most of those documents I already had a lot of This is
happening with a lot of these releases of documents. What happens is in the
old days, a lot of these countries did not have like freedom equivalent to
our Freedom of Information Act. So what would happen is that occasionally, in
general, someone would informally be classic the fact of the classified documents and give
them to some apologists, to some organization or some scientists saying, oh,
yeah, you want to know about that airliner case or whatever, Well here's
the documents. And so once the documents were, you know, available,
with someone hand them, then they would potocopy them and then everybody would have
them. But they were not part of a legal process, official process.
So although I think there's some new documents in the Brazilian but a lot of
it once that I had, I have already seen I had them, and
I believe this is the case. They can Canadian documents. This is not
new. The Canadian government has been releasing documents for many years. They're probably
releasing it's an ongoing process. So even the British Ministry of Defense they were
had released previously, right. But and that that gets me excited talking about
this stuff because we're probably due for another batch of British files pretty soon here.
Yeah, so hopefully they come soon and remember download them quick, yes,
otherwise you have to pay this the queen yep, or you're gonna have
to pay the Queen the station the Queen Her Majesty's station area and they'll forget.
Those are copyrighted by the Queen. It is so weird. Can't use
government or earth that actually puts the copyright on official documents. An official document
by it's not a commercial thing, you know, I mean, it's played
by taxpayers. But the British do put the copy of the crown copyrights.
It's called that's funny. Although I don't think that, I mean, I
don't think that they pursued anybody. I mean, want the documents are people
have heard anything like that. Well, I wanted to talk about I guess
pluck some steps we're dealing without the manure, such as some of the topics
of the stories that you've written in the magazine. And people keep an eye
on the website because we'll have the magazine probably up in the next couple of
weeks where you'll be able to download our magazine. But what were some of
the stories you have in there? Well, basically as you know, well
our listeners probably don't know that, but I mean, I've only been here
for a little bit over two months. Yeah, so I came after you.
You know. Of course Malitia was here in the first one and so
by the time I got here, he already had put most of the magazine.
But I took care of all the little sections. So I did the
news stories. But of course the news stories, because news is the one
element I call it perishable, you know, if you wait too many months
by the time your publication comes. And this used to happen to prin magazines
all the time, you know, monthly or buy monthly magazine. So we
decided to put most of them on the web. So I was a story
about the Japanese first Lady and her comments and the Russian navy one and uh
and the Chinese eclipse footage. But when people get the magazine they'll see those
stories. Uh. Then I did a few other sections to uh. Unfortunately
this is not a happy section, but it's still important. The memorial page
we call it, and we had I wrote all of that. We attribute
to people like John Michelle and John Keel and Richard Hall. A lot of
them are getting really old. Exactly. Our field has been long enough now
that this is it may be a regular feature. Not we want, not
that we want to, but it's just nature right all the major of the
feature stories. I only have one major story there, and it's a very
interesting one. I interviewed the filmmaker Randall Nickerson, who was a friend of
the late John mac and also by Hopkins, and he reopened that famous case
in at the real school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, remember with the UFO and
landed and they came and sixty two children, all the kids. So it's
a really fascinating case. And even though John Mack had worked on it,
and I think it was his intention to do a documentary after his untimely death,
that was left unfinished, and then Dominique Kalimopoulos, who was working with
John mc brought Randall Nickerson. First idea was that he would just edit the
material and just make a documentary with what he had, what they had,
what the John mckinstood had. But when he saw this stuff, this guy
got so excited and said, well, this is such an important story that
we should not just use the material you have, but why don't we go
back and now trace some of the witnesses who at the time that were between
like eight and eleven years old or something like that. Now they're all kids
in their twenties and interview them and also, you know, find other witnesses
and on. So I guess they approved this idea. They got some funding
and he went to South Africa, mostly to South Africa. He did of
course go to Zimbabwe too, but because as you know, the economic situation
and the political situation is so bad in Zimbabwe, that country is the basket
case and it's been falling apart for years. Practically all the kids that he
was able to locate had all emigrated. They had all moved to South Africa
or economic reasons or political reasons or whatever personal reasons so he was able to
locate a lot of the witnesses. He located a lot of additional witnesses who
had never been interviewed by mac or by the late Cinthia Hind also from Zimbabwe,
who originally had documented the case, or by the press because the case
got a lot of attention. The BBC was there and everything, but it
was within the next you know, the few weeks after the incident. What's
forgotten and what he discovered is this was much bigger than what people realize.
Well, actually, I'm gonna have to cut you off because we're a boat
out of time. But I have to read it. They can read it
in the magazine. Also another couple of great stories on the Mexican philosopher who
had a really unusual story. Yeah, and the Vietnam, which is great
because I have never seen another story on Vietnam and UFOs And those two stories
are on our website. So hopefully you're already there listening to the show,
So go ahead to the front page and check us out. Yeah, we'll
be posting the review that I did also for the magazine on the James folks.
Oh yeah, I know what, I know what. I Yeah,
that will be there probably tomorrow. Great, so we're out of time.
Thanks for being on the show. And actually we'll have Maricio in a couple
of weeks because these guys I want to have on the show periodically. So
you know, if Antonio sees a movie and he wants to talk about it,
we'll have him on the show and he'll share his thoughts or any thing
like that. So I have these got on regularly. But from here on
out, be sure to check out the web page because we've always got new
information and news and feature articles from all of us there. In fact,
I'm going to have one up and this is breaking on some cattle mutilations that
happen again out in Colorado. So you heard me talk about I think I
told you that's the only one kind of motivation that I kind of investigated where
they started and where a lot happened. So be sure to check us out
next week be able to be sure to check out the website. We won't
or two weeks from now because next week is Thanksgiving as a Turkey day,
so we have to take a break off a break and actually my ETU and
Antonio are coming over to my moms. We're going to have some Thanksgiving holiday
dinner and be great. But you guys have a great Thanksgiving and check us
out. In a couple of weeks audio okay I land Bat called gay Land,
Maten called gating with il, Matt called parting with bad Land, Bat
called getting ba