WEBVTT

1
00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:46.439
Hello, and welcome to this special
edition of Open Mind UFO Radio. I'm

2
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:52.679
your host, Alejandro Rojas, and
I am joined by Martin. I don't

3
00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:59.159
know what to call you, Martin, unidentified willis well, yes, only

4
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.719
because I forgot my license. How
did you know that I'm driving without a

5
00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:07.280
license? Wow? That fits.
It just came out, and then it

6
00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.840
actually applied to the situation. I
know. I left my my wallet at

7
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.879
home by accident this morning, So
that was I think you're doing like this

8
00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:19.840
teleptofy thing of something I don't know, I don't know going on it.

9
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:23.239
Wow. The world's a strange place
the last few days. I think everybody

10
00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.120
would agree with that. I think
so, especially with all this news and

11
00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:30.200
everything going on. You still okay, No, I agree. I think

12
00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.640
I think you're right. It's so
it's really been something, hasn't it.

13
00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.760
Yeah, So let's talk about that
something, and this show is something.

14
00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.920
So I called it a special report
some of you may be expecting, because

15
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:48.159
that is I'm having Leslie Kane on
today. You're wrong and I'm so sorry,

16
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:52.319
and so is Leslie. She was
not able to make it, and

17
00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.400
so, which is kind of a
bummer. Of course, She's really busy.

18
00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:59.640
She's been out there, but the
holidays and a bunch of other stuff

19
00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:05.239
came up and she had the cancel. She's devastated. However, she has

20
00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.199
promised me, and I apologize Martin, but she has a promise me that

21
00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:15.280
I will be the first interview she
does when she gets back into you know,

22
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:20.800
having some time. So she'll be
doing an interview with us in the

23
00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:24.120
next couple of weeks. So that'll
be good because news keeps developing. In

24
00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.599
fact, she was very concerned.
She was like, Hey, if we

25
00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.319
do an interview, you can't post
it like a couple of days later because

26
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:37.800
there's so much that. Excuse me, there's so much that's changing from day

27
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.199
by day. So at least we'll
have the latest when that happens. However,

28
00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:46.319
I have the next best thing.
There would be better. Better would

29
00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:49.719
be maybe lou Elizondo, the man
of the hour right now, but it's

30
00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:54.120
not him. But I do have
John Alexander and Nick Pope. Why is

31
00:02:54.159 --> 00:03:00.400
that important? Yeah, pretty cool
because John Alexander was in Army Intelligence,

32
00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:05.199
just like a lot of these people
in To the Stars Academy, which i'll

33
00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.400
refer to as TTSA going forward,
that group that Tom put together. A

34
00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:14.400
lot of those guys were in defense
and intelligence, and lou Elizondo, who

35
00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:20.599
ran this Department of Defense program,
he also was in defense intelligence. So

36
00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.319
John Alexander comes from that world,
not only that when he was in intelligence,

37
00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:29.840
and this was a couple decades ago, this is before this DoD UFO

38
00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:36.639
program. He and somebodies got together
to find who are these people keeping the

39
00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:39.879
UFO secrets. They did a deep
dig to figure out is there a secret

40
00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:46.960
organization out there that is investigating UFOs
and keeping the secrets. Some of them

41
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:51.159
assumed there were, but John says
he didn't find any. What you found

42
00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.560
was disappointing, was kind of bumbling
by the Air Force. They're just kind

43
00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.840
of like UFOs are a hot potato. I don't want to deal with it,

44
00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:01.159
You deal with it type of situation. Wow, Yeah, that's I

45
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:06.680
remember. You know, he did
that project where he was trying to find

46
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:14.879
out and I understand the hot potato. And it's kind of how this whole

47
00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:20.000
thing kind of developed very quietly,
and it's quite fascinating how all this took

48
00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.079
place. And we talk about this
kind of this embarrassment factor that happens the

49
00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.800
other person I have is Nick Pope. I've had on several times. But

50
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.959
the reason he's important is because he
worked at the UFO desk for the mod

51
00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:39.000
the Ministry of Defense in the UK. So essentially Nick Pope's job there in

52
00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:44.600
the nineties was similar to lou Elizondo's
job in many ways, and so we'll

53
00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:46.560
talk about that. So it's kind
of a round table. Got him both

54
00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.720
on at the same time, and
we do this roundtable discussion about all this

55
00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:56.879
recent news. So very very exciting
stuff. I mean, these guys are

56
00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:03.040
I mean, they talk about having
some internal insight. I think it doesn't

57
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:08.279
get better than these two guys.
I can't wait to listen to the show.

58
00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.519
So it's a lot of fun.
So there's a lot of news of

59
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:17.360
course around this DoD program. And
you know, since we've talked last Martin,

60
00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.240
there's been more news because there's stories
coming out every day. There's a

61
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:26.480
story that came out today in the
Sun actually that has my face on the

62
00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:31.439
front, which is a little bit
of embarrassing with Tom DeLong because you know,

63
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.839
I'm not this story, but they
liked. You know, I'm pretty

64
00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:39.920
much the only one talking about Tom
DeLong, probably because it seems like he's

65
00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.839
taken a back seat a bit.
And I did write a piece on the

66
00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.839
Huffington Post and at Open Minds dot
TV a longer piece about you know,

67
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.800
Tom's involvement with this whole thing,
but and the fact that I feel if

68
00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:55.920
it wasn't for him, it wouldn't
have happened. So this revelation, So

69
00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.480
that's been going on, But what
have you been observing. Let's talk to

70
00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.480
some of the news he's out there. Well. Also, I do want

71
00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.480
to say, when you were with
me on my show the other night with

72
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:10.399
Kevin Randall, what did you think
about I loved his comedy? Says I

73
00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:14.160
guess I owe Tom DeLong an apology. He said. You know what is

74
00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:19.480
funny is after I wrote my piece
about Tom DeLong and his involvement, I

75
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:24.480
got a few responses like that,
saying, you know, you're right,

76
00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.720
he deserves credit. We need to
give credit where credit is due. And

77
00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.519
I lay it out how on the
one hand, Tom is saying some pretty

78
00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:40.480
wild stuff and on the other hand, what he delivered was quite remarkable and

79
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:46.240
credible. You know, this revelation
that the government has been secretly investigating UFOs

80
00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.879
and have discovered unknowns, and we
haven't been told that for decades, literally

81
00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.319
decades, and not only that,
lots of us have been banging our head

82
00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:59.199
against the wall, saying, hey, look, the government is investigating UFOs.

83
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.639
We've got these file even though they
say they're not, and everybody ignores

84
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:06.839
us. They think we're conspiracy,
goofballs or something. So this vindicates us

85
00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:13.000
and demonstrates that we were right all
along that there was something going on and

86
00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.759
we wouldn't have had that without Tom. So that's a really big deal.

87
00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:18.319
So you can hear with Kevin Randall, because Kevin Randall's one of these guys

88
00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:25.360
who's who's been very careful researcher,
great researcher. And I asked that of

89
00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:30.600
John and Nick, not about Tom
specifically, but how important this news is.

90
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.480
And we'll talk about that, but
it is very important news and we

91
00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.879
wouldn't have it without Tom. So
a lot of people are feeling that way.

92
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.199
So I hope people read my story, and I understand. I think

93
00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.199
some were disappointed because Tom, you
know, has these pretty wild ideas,

94
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:51.800
and that his ideas are not what
he proved or demonstrated, but what he

95
00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:57.360
demonstrated is something that I would have
hoped he would demonstrate which is more exciting

96
00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:03.480
just this simple revelation that they are
investigating and taking it seriously. Yeah.

97
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.399
Absolutely, So getting back to what
is going on with the news, I

98
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.120
just wanted to comment because the other
night, not last night, but the

99
00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:16.959
night before, I turned on you
know, CNN News because they've been covering

100
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.040
this pretty steady around ten o'clock,
and all of a sudden, the host

101
00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.319
said, my next guest is Neil
de grass Tyson, and so I went,

102
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.240
oh, like, oh no,
because I have watched him, you

103
00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.320
know, over the years, you
know, bash the whole UFO thing,

104
00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:35.200
you know, many times, and
so I just thought that was gonna be

105
00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:41.039
more of that, and I was
totally impressed with the way he handled it

106
00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:48.399
this time. So I really enjoyed
what he said. He's he was actually

107
00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:52.080
almost arguing with the host of the
show, saying, no, I really

108
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.639
think it's not a bad idea that
these things are investigated. And it's like,

109
00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.399
wow, that was Neil de grass
Tyson saying that, and he's saying,

110
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.159
you know it is you know,
he did remind everyone, and I

111
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:09.240
think it's a good point. Is
that a UFO means an unidentified flying object

112
00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:15.360
he said, perhaps an astrophysicist like
myself and others may be able to make

113
00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.720
it an IFO, an identified object, but you know, I don't know

114
00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.600
about this one in particular, that
type of thing. So it was it

115
00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.799
was great to hear someone who usually, like I said, he usually bashes

116
00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.960
the UFO idea in the past.
That's what I've seen repeatedly, so I

117
00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.320
was really relieved that he actually was
acting like this is a serious thing that

118
00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:41.559
you know, could possibly be looked
at. I agree with you. I

119
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:48.120
heard that interview, and I also
was impressed he was making the point and

120
00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:54.039
I understand his point that you know, when Elizondo says this is evident of

121
00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.480
life elsewhere or something like that,
or he said, A think this is

122
00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.519
evidence that we're not alone, compelling
evidence that we're not alone, and I'll

123
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:11.039
leave it at that. Tyson disagreed
with that. He said, you know,

124
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.080
this isn't evidence of that, this
is evidence of unknowns. And to

125
00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.840
Elezondo's defense, you know, it
was Aaron Burnett on CNN who pushed Elesondo

126
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.360
choose that answer because she kept asking
him about aliens, and he said,

127
00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.440
this isn't about that. I don't
want to talk about that, this isn't

128
00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.720
about that, and he finally gave
her that little thing, and of course

129
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.759
that's the thing they run with,
which is really frustrating. I watched an

130
00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:45.080
interview with James Fox on CNN and
they kept doing that. They her sentence

131
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:50.639
a question started with asking about UFOs, but in the same question incorporated aliens.

132
00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.559
And I think what people have to
do is kind of say, hey,

133
00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:58.720
look, you're asking me two different
questions. Here. You're asking me

134
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:03.879
about UFOs and to getting unidentified objects. Then you're asking me to speculate about

135
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:09.720
aliens. This isn't about aliens.
This is about UFOs and gathering data to

136
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.679
figure out what they are. We
don't know what they are. Is it

137
00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.600
possible they're extraterrestial Perhaps that that may
be the case, but we have to

138
00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.000
follow the data to bring us to
that conclusion, and we just don't have

139
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.840
those conclusions yet. So but I
was really impressed with Tyson too, because

140
00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.279
he was very supportive of the program. Like you said, he said,

141
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.559
twenty two million dollars is a drop
in the bucket. He said, it's

142
00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.480
like ZEROS reserves or zero something percent
of the defense budget. It's totally justified

143
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:46.559
to spend a little bit of money
in relative terms, of course, on

144
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:52.360
investigating unknown objects. These guys are
observing, it makes sense to do that,

145
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.519
And I thought that was really cool
too. Yeah. Yeah, And

146
00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:03.120
to your point, I have watched
these people, you know, that are

147
00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.279
conducting the interview just push someone into
a corner. They you know, the

148
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.600
same person did that with Leslie Kayane
the other night, and she held a

149
00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.960
ground pretty well. But trying to
get them into saying it's extraterrestrial, they're

150
00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.840
just you know, it's like a
loaded question after a loaded question, trying

151
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:26.159
to get them to say that.
And but you know, I like the

152
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.279
fact that at least no one is
going there, you know, I mean,

153
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.879
I just hope no one goes there
because I think it would it would

154
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.399
just take away from it if someone
said, yes, you know, I

155
00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:41.200
do believe they're extraterrestrial. Yeah,
And I think that's why, you know,

156
00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.320
normally we've heard Tom DeLong be the
front guy out there speaking like crazy

157
00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.399
to everybody and talking about the alien
topic. And I think that's why he

158
00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:56.039
must have agreed to kind of sit
on the sidelines for now and chill out,

159
00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:00.399
you know, and let these guys
have their moment to talk about the

160
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:09.639
actual investigation. And this is partially
us educating the mainstream though too so it's

161
00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:18.120
kind of educating them and trying to
de attach the alien stigma from the term

162
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.039
UFO, because you know, we've
tried to come up with these terms UAP

163
00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:28.279
anomalist aerial phenomena. It doesn't work. That has not worked with the press.

164
00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.360
They don't say, oh, okay, you've got a UAP that's totally

165
00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.399
different than the UFO. No,
they say UFO. They go back to

166
00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.960
the term UFO because really that's just
trying to sneakily say the same thing using

167
00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:52.440
a different term. So you have
to tackle the idea of UFO that they

168
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.320
have in their mind and detach that
stigma. And that's what we've got to

169
00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.799
work towards and I think is happening. But we have to be a little

170
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:05.279
more aggressive. And we shouldn't be
aggressive or be afraid to be aggressive.

171
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.240
Leslie shouldn't be afraid to say,
hey, she was with Don Lemon,

172
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:15.919
Hey don you know this is an
alien's I know that's really interesting to talk

173
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.480
about, but that's not what we're
talking about. What we need to focus

174
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:24.600
on and what the issue here is
and what the DoD was doing was examining

175
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:33.200
unknown objects, unknown aircraft, and
they were observing aircraft that demonstrated technologies that

176
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:39.120
are beyond our own. That is
the issue. We need to continue to

177
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.559
investigate that and then maybe we'll be
able to have some answers as to what

178
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.159
is the root of this issue.
But that needs to be the focus,

179
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.919
right And I do understand when like
Don or anyone else is you know,

180
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.679
interviewing someone, They're going to ask, well, what do you think it

181
00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:03.639
is? I mean, that's a
normal question for anyone to ask, because

182
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.240
you know, for instance, when
the Navy pilot I gave it I can't

183
00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:13.000
remember it's fall or something like that, was being interviewed. You know,

184
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.679
he was talking about what he observed. Well, you know, this thing

185
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.480
went that way, it went this
way. You know, it didn't have

186
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.519
any source of propulsion that was visual
or any you know, wings or anything

187
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.039
like that. You know, so
when you tell a story like that,

188
00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.279
of course you know the next question
is going to be, well what do

189
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:37.000
you think it was? So I
do understand, but all you can answer

190
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.279
if you're being interviewed is I'm not
sure you know what I mean? What

191
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.120
else can you say if you we're
at a point where we have to be

192
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.960
careful anyone that's being interviewed because it
can go you know, it can go

193
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.480
south pretty quickly, right, And
you know, when lou was being pushed

194
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:03.519
and I don't understand necessarily why they
do this, but he could have said,

195
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.279
and I think it would have been
accurate and just find to say,

196
00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.120
I don't know when she's like,
are these aliens? I don't know.

197
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.720
That's the point. We don't know. We need to do the investigation to

198
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:22.279
determine what the matter is, and
that once that point is made, then

199
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:29.720
maybe some speculation could happen, because
if, of course a thorough study of

200
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:40.360
UFOs is able to determine or demonstrate
with some you know, demonstrate that we

201
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:48.759
are having visitations like Bigelo seems to
be convinced of as well, then that's

202
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.320
extraordinary, you know that that is
really cool. That would be interesting too

203
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.039
if that were the case. Another
interesting point too, is this kind of

204
00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:03.480
cat and mouse game thing that happens
is that you know, throughout the years,

205
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.039
even in Project blue Book, we
got a lot of files that are

206
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.880
very similar to the one case they've
released details to and that these jet fighter

207
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.319
pilots are coming out and talking about, which is you know, essentially the

208
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.759
Nimitz carrier group saw this object they
called a tic tac. It was forty

209
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:26.200
foot long object that was hovering and
then making weird maneuvers and shooting off at

210
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:32.119
incredible speed. That when jets are
scrambled to the area of an unknown,

211
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:37.000
that the unknown observed for a short
period of time and then races off at

212
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.480
incredible speed. That is what we've
heard over and over and over and over

213
00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:47.799
again. Yes, which would kind
of be indicative of I think what Nick

214
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:56.559
Pope suggested on an article recently,
which is that perhaps these are observation you

215
00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:03.279
know, the things are here for
observation only type of thing. That's an

216
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:08.880
interesting idea. Yeah, like drones
in a way, Yeah, interstellar drones.

217
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.160
Sure, I mean it's I know, we can't fathom something like that

218
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.839
because of the distance thing. But
I don't think that's I don't think that's

219
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:23.480
a bad theory at all. Is
the go ahead? No, I'm just

220
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.480
saying, I mean, we would
do it if we could. Is there

221
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:34.400
another interesting story out there? No, but well, you know, I'm

222
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.559
sure there is. But you know, to your point, Also, I

223
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.960
just want to want to say this. I think it would be great if

224
00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:47.440
people are being interviewed about this,
is if they brought up that topic that

225
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.400
these things have been observed for a
long time. It's not just recently,

226
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.599
because I think a lot of people
may just assume that wow, this happened

227
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.599
and then not really know anything else
about it. But I really think that

228
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.079
more people would be interested in finding
out if they knew while this has been

229
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:08.759
happening for decades, so it can't
be some new technology. Yeah. Yeah,

230
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.160
that's a big point I'm trying to
make to some of the people in

231
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:18.000
the press who have contacted me lately, is that this is important because of

232
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.920
the reason that we said earlier that
the government has been denying any research into

233
00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:29.880
this topic or that they take it
seriously when actually they do. Another point

234
00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:36.880
is that exactly what you said,
that this is not a new occurrence,

235
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.599
that these sort of events have happened
over and over again. And you know,

236
00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:45.559
the third point that I like to
make with them is that things have

237
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.279
changed a bit in that now.
I guess, getting back to Robert Powell

238
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.480
and his investigation, how he looked
into this case, this Knimitz case,

239
00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.720
for the last year or so,
and the when he had put in FOYA

240
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:07.079
requests, they said they didn't have
any information. And now that this story

241
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.559
has come out, he's revisited with
them and they said we will now have

242
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:18.920
information forthcoming, so essentially acknowledging that
they lied in the first case, that

243
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.920
they didn't have information, and that
now because they're kind of busted, they're

244
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:29.839
going to be revealing at least providing
something to people. And I'm sure when

245
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.160
they provide this information won't just go
to Robert Poll. I'm sure the New

246
00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:38.119
York Times and others have made these
similar requests, so it's at least opened

247
00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.480
up this case a little bit.
Now do you think someone asked me the

248
00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.359
other day, and I thought it
was a fairly decent question. Do you

249
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:52.039
think this is a baby step on
disclosure? Well, what are your thoughts

250
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:57.480
about that? I don't think so, at least I don't know for sure,

251
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.839
but I don't think so. I
I mean, it could be argued

252
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:08.079
that this is disclosure. They did
disclose that they're investigating UFOs and they have

253
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:15.119
been doing that secretly. That's a
disclosure, and it could be the disclosure.

254
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.039
The issue is that, well,
we have another level of disclosure.

255
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:26.160
Elizondo says he is not aware of
anybody else looking into this matter, and

256
00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:33.160
that no one else had looked into
the matter. In fact, the exotic

257
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:40.960
materials they obtained that they claimed to
have obtained are in Bigelow's hands. They

258
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.200
contracted Bigelow to Aerospace to look at
this, so that to me would indicate

259
00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:52.160
there is no bigger program. If
there was a bigger program, why would

260
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.599
they give that material to Bigelow instead
of shuttling that to whatever this other secret

261
00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:06.039
program is, right, unless it's
always been in a subcontractor's hands, in

262
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:10.960
a private hands to begin with.
You know, there's always been argument about

263
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.920
that. Well, you know,
that's the way you keep a secret is

264
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.119
to get it out of you know, government. Yeah, you know.

265
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:19.039
And one of the points that John's
going to make here in a little bit

266
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.799
in the interview is that there's no
real leadership, that it's very haphazard,

267
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:29.759
and we've had these issues in the
past that each branch of the military works

268
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.039
on their own projects and on their
own things, and they work with their

269
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:38.200
own contractors. So in other words, there could be a program that the

270
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.519
Navy has that the Air Force is
not aware of sort of things. So

271
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:47.079
we heard of a defense Department of
Defense, which makes sense because that's more

272
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.599
centralized. But perhaps there is another
program out there that we're just not aware

273
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.920
of and they're not aware of and
they're not even working together. That would

274
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.079
be possible, but I don't know, I do this well, obviously it

275
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:04.880
seems that that's what Tom DeLong thinks
that you know, that that there will

276
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:11.720
be some sort of revelation that they've
retrieved a body that they do know that

277
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:18.559
aliens exist. There's no proof or
or indication official indication of that at all

278
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:26.440
at this time. So, uh
so I don't know, you know,

279
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.119
it's all. It also goes along
the line with what I've said on my

280
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.000
show a number of times that my
thoughts are and this is just a theory

281
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.559
that the government has no idea what's
going on, and they're just where we

282
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.400
are at, uh, you know, looking at this, you know,

283
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:45.880
maybe they would have some more insight. Yeah, because there's a lot of

284
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.640
uh there's a lot of classified information
almost out of time. But to your

285
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:55.079
point, yeah, because we keep
hearing that over and over again. Now

286
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.440
there's another secret project that come out
came out, but the the whole thing

287
00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.920
is we don't don't know much and
it and that's what Alexander is saying.

288
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:08.519
They don't know much and they're just
as uh mystified as this by all of

289
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.519
this is the rest of us,
and and that's all the indication we have.

290
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.319
But thank you so much for joining
us. Martin, absolutely my pleasure.

291
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.839
For those of you who celebrate Christmas, I hope you have a wonderful

292
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:25.319
and safe Christmas. All right,
So we've got to go to break And

293
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.880
now for those of you listening on
kg R, you'll hear a couple of

294
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:32.599
commercials, and then for those of
you listening on the podcast, you'll hear

295
00:24:32.720 --> 00:25:15.799
a short music interlude and we'll be
right back. Welcome back to Open Mind

296
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:23.079
UFO Radio for this special edition show
just prior to the holidays. Santa Claus

297
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.319
is getting his sled ready right now, and all of us, of course,

298
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:33.319
are talking UFOs and we've got a
bigger audience talking UFOs and the normal

299
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.039
out there in the world. Hopefully
Santa doesn't get buzzed by any unknown object.

300
00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:41.880
But on the phone with me,
it's John, Alexander and Nick Pope,

301
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.759
and I don't think I could have
got two better people because John Alexander

302
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:52.759
worked in Army Intelligence and many of
the to the Stars Academy people worked in

303
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.920
intelligence, including the man of the
Hour Lou Elisondo, who we'll be talking

304
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:02.759
about. And then all so Nick
Pope, and speaking of Lou, Nick

305
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:07.400
Pope did kind of what Lou did
for the UK, working at the Ministry

306
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.200
of Defense for a few years,
so we'll get into that as well.

307
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.119
So welcome, gentlemen. Glad to
be here, all right, yes,

308
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:21.279
likewise good, good to be joining
you for this show. So to start

309
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:26.480
off, John, so this is
kind of like, uh, I guess

310
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.759
is it? This at a big
surprise, this revelation that this department exists,

311
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:37.000
especially given that when you were in
Army Intelligence you kind of got somebodies

312
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:45.160
together to look for any clandestine kind
of UFO project in the government. Well,

313
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.359
we did, but we went much
further than that. And I think

314
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.319
this is I can actually be explained. I was not familiar with it.

315
00:26:55.319 --> 00:27:00.720
They came along two decades after I
retired. But what you're seeing here is

316
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:07.519
are actually a relatively small program.
And I think his personality dependent, meaning

317
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:14.160
you had to have somebody like Lou
who pick up the guide on and cause

318
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:18.559
it to happen. I've got to
say he did better than I did,

319
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:25.440
because we were not able to get
funding. And I would say that the

320
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:30.279
reasons we were not are the ones
that have been exposed in the heat that

321
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.480
people are taking. Now. We
can cover more about that if you wish.

322
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.440
Yeah, we'll get into that definitely. But I want to ask Nick,

323
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:42.240
I mean you had mentioned John.
You just mentioned that, you know,

324
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.000
it was kind of one guy.
They didn't have a lot of resources,

325
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.319
which is kind of like your program, Nick, Wasn't it just maybe

326
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.559
were you the only staffer at the
UFO desk and then you worked with other

327
00:27:53.640 --> 00:28:00.759
agencies. Yes, it was pretty
much just myself as the subject matter expert.

328
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:07.119
I had administrative support, and of
course there was a whole network of

329
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:14.240
other experts that we could bring in
on particular investigations, be they radar experts,

330
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:19.359
be they imagery analysts, so we
had a wide reach. But yeah,

331
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:25.640
the actual core team was very small, and one reason for that goes

332
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:30.480
back to this point about the political
embarrassment. We did not want this to

333
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.559
be a particularly visible program, and
we didn't want there to be much of

334
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.160
a cost associated with it, and
it depends how you do the accounting.

335
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:42.920
Now, I've had a financial policy
job at the Ministry of Defense, and

336
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:51.279
I know that as long as you
use existing resources concurrently with other defense tasks,

337
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:56.880
you can really say that there's no
additional cash cost in what you're doing.

338
00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:02.680
And that's one way to keep things
off the radar pun intended. So

339
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:10.119
this budget, can I mention what
Nick's just mentioned is absolutely critical and the

340
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.640
reason I think for the end of
the program, and that is we say

341
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:18.680
off the radar. There are external
radars and internal radars, and as long

342
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:26.519
as you do things at a certain
level, you can stay below the radar

343
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:33.559
if you use that euphemism meaning you're
not drawing attention to yourself. And I've

344
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.319
got to agree with Nick. We
found the same thing. People were scared

345
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:45.119
to death of being exposed and thought
to be wasting resources. That was a

346
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:52.000
critical issue, right And then this
budget so it kind of gets back to

347
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:57.000
this twenty two million dollar budget that
they had or at least and maybe you

348
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:02.160
guys can clarify it's a little clear. Is that money that all went to

349
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:06.680
Bigelow or not. I think Chris
Mellen made a comment on Coast to Coast

350
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:11.720
when he was on with George Nap
and I that they probably didn't see all

351
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:17.200
of that money even though it was
earmarked for the program. And is that

352
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:22.480
a lot of money when it comes
to this sort of program. It's menu

353
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.759
scull no one of my pets saying
you'll see it repeatedly. Is whatever we're

354
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:34.799
looking at is at least as complex
as AIDS or cancer. And remember when

355
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:41.400
you say twenty two many, you're
talking over five years. So the amount

356
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.799
of money I actually did the calculations
last night, and based on the budget,

357
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.440
you're talking about zero point zero zero
one percent of the defense budget.

358
00:30:55.960 --> 00:31:00.240
I mean yes, let me just
yeah, just just to make give people

359
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:06.839
an example of what that might buy. I think it buys you about a

360
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:11.400
quarter of one of the new F
thirty five fighters, right, And how

361
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:17.880
does that compare to the budget you
know for your program, where we hardly

362
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:23.079
ever costed it out. That's the
thing. In terms of additional cash costs,

363
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:30.720
we were desperate to keep those almost
down to zero. Hence, as

364
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:37.759
I say, this idea of simply
piggybacking on other resources and capabilities that already

365
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:44.359
existed within the Ministry of Defense.
And so since twenty twelve when the Pentagram

366
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:49.559
says they ended that budget. It
seems like that's what this organization was doing.

367
00:31:49.759 --> 00:32:00.599
They were using other resources. Yes, I think certainly what I've heard,

368
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:06.799
and I hasten to add, I
have not got any insight knowledge about

369
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:12.240
this particular US program. I had
left even the Ministry of Defense in the

370
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.640
UK by the time this was set
up, and it's not clear though perhaps

371
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:20.480
we can get into that later,
the extent to which there was any liaison

372
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:30.319
with allies. But my understanding is
that yes, it continues in some form,

373
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:36.359
but now kind of off the books
unofficially, just piggybacking, as I

374
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.279
say, on existing resources and capabilities. So almost back to this idea of

375
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:46.359
people looking at this unofficially just in
the margins of looking at other things like

376
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:54.640
Russian aerospace capability. Well, I
think we've put on some critical issues here,

377
00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:00.279
and I think one of the issues
they have not played it very well

378
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:05.799
politically since it came out, because
I think the public now believes there was

379
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:13.079
a big UFO program when in fact
a small b They were looking at specific

380
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:17.720
kinds of threats, and I think
probably given the advent of drones and things,

381
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:24.079
other kinds of emerging threats as well. But I offer to people,

382
00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:30.400
if you think there's a program,
try calling your local government agency, air

383
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:36.039
force or whatever and try to report
a UFO and you're going to find they

384
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:42.720
don't take it. And what I've
heard from the people involved is I think

385
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.519
most, if not all, of
these things had to do with incidents that

386
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:57.039
involved our air military assets as opposed
to just general comments about seeing weird stuff.

387
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.240
I think you're right, and I
think that either Chris Mellon or maybe

388
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:07.519
Lois Elissando has confirmed that in one
of their more recent interviews, that these

389
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:14.320
were military cases that they were looking
at because ridiculously. I remember my first

390
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.880
UFO investigation for Moufon, and it
was this security guard who had just come

391
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:28.639
back from desert storm and he felt
he saw some weird thing. It was

392
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:32.239
at, you know, over a
period of time, over a mountain in

393
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:37.360
Colorado where there's a lot of air
traffic, just in the suburbs there,

394
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.119
and finally he said, I better
call this in. He said, he

395
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.039
was still kind of hyped up.
He was still like on alert, you

396
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.480
know, looking for abnormal things,
and they're supposed to report that sort of

397
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:52.039
thing, and so he tried calling
the airport, the FAA. Nobody wanted

398
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.679
to hear anything. And then I
did the same to see if you know,

399
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.679
anything else was reported, and shockingly, that's when I found out they

400
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:01.039
don't want to hear any thing about
it. The FAA didn't want to hear

401
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:09.000
about an object in our airspace.
They told him and me to call Davenport.

402
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:14.639
Peter Tavenport is new Fork organization,
and I don't know that Davenport,

403
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.559
one guy you know, sitting at
his computer in Washington, would have been

404
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:27.039
able to do anything about this apparent
threat that was you know, No,

405
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.079
well that's the problem, you bin
Sorry, go on, John, No,

406
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:34.039
I was going to say that that
has been the case across the board.

407
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:38.800
You might remember when I was with
KNIDS, we did visit FAA.

408
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:45.320
I took a big a load down
there, and it turned out that the

409
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:51.280
deputy director of security had been a
personal friend of mine who frankly, when

410
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:57.119
I brought up UFOs and you know, Alexander's crazy again, but he did

411
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.519
put us in touch and it was
very interesting what happened. We dealt with

412
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:08.519
some very high level people they had
no problem in believing in UFOs, and

413
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:13.199
some of them who had been.
Air traffic controllers said, yeah, they

414
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.960
had, you know, had such
reports and were themselves aware of it,

415
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:23.159
but did not want to actively get
involved. I mean they were looking and

416
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:31.800
for a while NIDS was listed as
a place to call because they think government

417
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:37.079
didn't want involvement and they just wanted
to make this go away as quickly as

418
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:45.400
possible without alienating the public. And
Nick, what were you going to say?

419
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.360
I was going to say, it
comes back to this age old point

420
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.079
about the language that one uses when
discussing this subject, and I'm talking about

421
00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:00.559
when those of us actually within government
do this sort of thing. You really

422
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:06.639
can't ever run a UFO project.
We in the Ministry of Defense changed the

423
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:13.239
terminology, as you know, to
UAP Unidentified Aerial Phenomena in an attempt to

424
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:19.280
lose the pop culture baggage that the
term UFO has, and in an attempt

425
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:25.760
that was ultimately successful to get some
funding for a small intelligence assessment that we

426
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:32.719
code named Project Condine. But really
you have to kind of almost reinvent the

427
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:39.679
language on this. Hence we get
into advanced aerospace threat identification programs, we

428
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:45.400
get into advanced theoretical physics groups,
we get into all of all of this,

429
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:50.199
and it's just a way around it. If a pilot says I want

430
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:54.840
to report a UFO, they might
actually get a psychological evaluation and get grounded.

431
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:59.679
So the only way around it is
to say, I think I've seen

432
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.559
one of these new drones and I'm
a little concerned that it's flying in restricted

433
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.480
airspace. Then you might get someone
in government to take a look at it.

434
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:13.599
Yeah. No, Nick is exactly
right on this, and that's what

435
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:20.840
we did. We created the term
advanced theoretical physics and the reason for that

436
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:28.079
was to prevent we thank people from
filing freedom of information reports thinking they would

437
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:32.360
ask for UFOs and it would not
be any translation. So Nick is exactly

438
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:39.400
right, and the linguistics is very
important. Now getting back to another matter

439
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:44.360
that you had mentioned, you both
had talked about. It's kind of like

440
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.840
why something like this needs to be
so secret, And Esquire actually had a

441
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:57.079
story that came out today and it
was from a military historian and former strategist,

442
00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.280
Robert Bateman, and he talked about
this. He was like, why

443
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:04.599
is the government so cagy on UFO
matters? And he said, essentially,

444
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.559
these special access programs, the type
of that was created in the DoD Here

445
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:13.159
they are even more secret than top
secret because they that and they're even more

446
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:17.119
careful about who knows what. And
there's two reasons, either because we want

447
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:22.119
to hide capabilities from the Chinese or
the Russians or enemies, or the second

448
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:28.360
reason is because it's kind of politically
embarrassing. So, for instance, you

449
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:34.159
talked about, you know, when
they've done, like researched what games Chinese

450
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:37.960
children play so that they have an
idea of their psychology, and that this

451
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:43.599
is that sort of thing. It's
a politically embarrassing sort of thing, and

452
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:49.039
it's one of the reasons that answers
the major secrecy. Even though it doesn't

453
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:52.679
seem like, you know, it's
not like they were hiding any dead alien

454
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:58.559
bodies or something like that. Well, the black world is replete with those,

455
00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.320
not just in UFO, but in
other areas where they want to hide

456
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:08.920
stuff because the potential for embarrassment.
Unfortunately, I think the people who divine

457
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:16.000
this are not a webfair of what
the public beliefs. I remember about seventy

458
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:20.880
percent of the public beliefs have actually
seen the UFO, and is actually considerable

459
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:24.320
support. Having said that, if
you looked at the ones I saw c

460
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:30.119
on n ASNBC reports coming out,
they brought out what I call they ain't

461
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:36.280
an awful crowd. You know,
look at the waste of government money,

462
00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:42.559
and that is internally what they did
run into, by the way that all

463
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:46.360
indications are, that was a piece
of it saying you're wasting your money.

464
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:52.199
Remember I've always said that there is
competition for this money, even in the

465
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:57.480
black world. As long as you're
low enough, it won't cause a flap.

466
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.639
But as it becomes visible, and
this also happened. I might mention

467
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:07.440
with the remote viewing program some of
the things that led to the depth of

468
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:13.760
that, and it had to do
with the waste of money aspect, which

469
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:19.840
you can make mhm. Nixt ran
into that. Yes, let me actually

470
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:24.000
pick up on a couple of those
points and then perhaps get into another interesting

471
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:31.000
thing. One reason for the secrecy
is certainly the political embarrassment, though another

472
00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:37.440
reason is that actually the sorts of
resources that you would need to access to

473
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:45.480
properly investigate the most credible sightings do
include some fairly sensitive pieces of kit and

474
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:51.679
capabilities. I'm talking about things such
as the space tracking radars that form part

475
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:58.880
of the ballistic missile early warning system, possibly the deep space network, various

476
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:04.360
other things. There are quite a
lot of reasons why this might be classified.

477
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.480
Not all of it is political embarrassment, though part of it is.

478
00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:13.519
I don't think we should also Sorry, I just want one more point on

479
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:22.199
this. I don't think we should
also underestimate the whole technology acquisition aspect of

480
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.119
this. You know, we want
to take we should take a step back

481
00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:29.119
with this and say, why are
governments looking at this? Why are you

482
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.679
know, people like John and myself
interested in this anyway? And one of

483
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:37.599
the answers is, well, because
there does look as if there's a capability

484
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:43.239
out there that we don't have a
technology, and in one sense, we

485
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:49.639
don't actually go in with a conclusion
led belief system of what we're dealing with.

486
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.679
In one sense, we go in, Look, doesn't matter if it's

487
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.559
Russian or Martian, if it can
do those speeds and maneuvers, there's a

488
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.599
technology there that we want because it
seems to be better than ours. And

489
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:06.559
that's why, by the way,
the word threat tends to crop up in

490
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:13.960
all these organizations Advanced Aerospace Threat Investigation
program, we are interested quite rightly in

491
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:22.280
potential threats and let's make no mistake
about it. If this technology truly did

492
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:30.280
come from some exotic source, the
national or corporation that first acquires it is

493
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:37.960
going to have a pretty huge advantage, which is what it seems. Bigelow

494
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:43.800
has talked about that that in one
of his main goals. And John,

495
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:45.920
you would know about this because you
worked with big Low on some of these

496
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:52.079
projects with Bigelow Aerospace with tech acquisition. He was planning on getting into the

497
00:43:52.559 --> 00:44:00.519
before he got into the space commercial
space industry, he was doing these sort

498
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:05.719
of things looking for technology to acquire, hopefully being able to glean some technology

499
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:12.320
from the observed phenomena of UFOs that
he could develop for his company. So

500
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:17.159
he was looking for that himself.
It seems well, in years pasted,

501
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:23.599
long before I was Bigelow, and
part of our study, we had a

502
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:30.280
guy named Ben Rich and Ben was
the head of the Skunk Works, and

503
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.159
despite a lot of stories out there, I don't believe that they had it,

504
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.480
but we had. I had talked
to him about this specifically on several

505
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:42.840
occasions and somewhat in depth, and
he had a shopping list, so it

506
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:45.000
was exactly that. I mean,
he wanted the propulsion systems on me,

507
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:51.880
give me this and give me this
because he recognized the technological advantage that they

508
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:57.119
could gain by having it, right, So which end, you know,

509
00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:01.119
to the Stars Academy when they announced
their launched they also said something similar that

510
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:07.559
they're hoping to glean the technology and
even they seem to have and you guys

511
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:10.239
know you know how put of,
I'm not sure if either of you are

512
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.039
familiar with Steve Justice, the guy
who works for work for skunk Works who's

513
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:20.679
now working with it. To the
Stars Academy team, they seem to even

514
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.840
think that they have been able to
observe a technology that they want to develop,

515
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:30.039
and they kind of have an idea
of a craft. They've even released

516
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:35.559
a picture of a craft that they
hope to develop. Well, when I

517
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:39.519
had developed the study, again we're
talking in nineteen eighties, one of the

518
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:45.760
things that we were proposing to folks
was to do exactly that that if you

519
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:52.719
looked at these observations carefully and try
to discern what the characteristics were, that

520
00:45:52.800 --> 00:46:00.000
you could back your way into what
kind of technology would be required to enable

521
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:04.119
that. And we do know and
this is kind of across the board,

522
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:09.760
not just in this area, but
being able to envision the outcome that you

523
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:20.559
want is very important to leading to
development of new technology. Hmm, that's

524
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:24.280
interesting. Did you have a comment
that way, Nick, I mean how

525
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:29.599
much? I mean, was there
any technology that was able to be acquired?

526
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:35.840
But do you believe from the ufodeska
in the mod not to my knowledge,

527
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:40.039
But that didn't mean that we didn't
have the aspiration to acquire that technology.

528
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:45.880
And I suspect that our shopping list
was very similar and I would say

529
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:52.320
almost identical to the US list.
Of course, all the things that you'd

530
00:46:52.400 --> 00:47:00.440
want would be the exotic propulsion systems, avionics, aerodynamics, better stealth,

531
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:06.880
that sort of thing. And let's
not forget, of course, the weaponization

532
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:15.280
of this. If you look at
the declassified parts of the UK government intelligence

533
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:22.719
assessment on this project Condine, you
will see the phrase novel military applications used

534
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:29.920
when talking about the aspirations of what
we might get from a better understanding of

535
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:34.039
UFOs, whatever they turn out to
be, and you will specifically see,

536
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:42.239
for example, reference to RF weapons, radio frequency weapons, directed energy weapons,

537
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:46.159
whatever you want to talk, whatever
terminology you want to use. Again,

538
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:50.920
I go back to the fact we
don't necessarily say that we think this

539
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:58.239
is extraterrestrial. We simply say that
technology seems to be out there and we

540
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.400
would like to acquire it. And
as I say, it goes back the

541
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:07.440
real I think reason for a lot
of the secrecy is that the nation that

542
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:14.880
first gets its hands on that has
something that nobody else has. And one

543
00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.880
other point, by the way,
and you can make a wider point about

544
00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:23.039
the extent to which, for example, the space program has been segueing out

545
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:30.320
of government and into the private sector. One very important aspect of this whole

546
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:34.760
story goes back to the involvement of
Robert Bigelow. But it's a more general

547
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:37.760
point. I'm going to put you
out. I'm going to stop you there.

548
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:39.920
Hold on to that point because we're
out of time. So I will

549
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:43.840
get back to that after the break, because I do want to address the

550
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:47.360
whole Bigelow aspect of this as well, so we'll be right back with that.

551
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:52.280
But you're listening to Open Minds CFO
Radio. I'm here with John Alexander

552
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.199
and Nick Pope. We're going to
take a quick break. If you're listening

553
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:59.239
on KGRA, you're going to hear
some commercials. Otherwise, if you're listening

554
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:04.159
to the podcast, just gonna hear
a short musical interlude. Thanks for tuning

555
00:49:04.199 --> 00:50:15.599
in, and we'll be right back. All right, we're back. You're

556
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:19.480
listening to Open Mind GUFO Radio.
I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and

557
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:23.440
we have Nick Pope formally working the
UFO desk for the Ministry of Defense,

558
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:30.880
and we've got John Alexander, former
Army Intelligence but then he's worked in the

559
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:36.760
defense industry in multiple different ways and
he still does some consulting, so and

560
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.280
he used to work with Bigelow.
So earlier John mentioned NIDS, which was

561
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:46.119
the what was it that acronym?
Mean again, I forget the National Institute

562
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:52.800
for Discovery Science, right, which
was Bigelow's first organization to look into paranormal

563
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:58.599
aspect of the different paranormal aspects.
So actually the second that he's had a

564
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.119
longer insist than that. Wow,
I was not aware of that, but

565
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:06.280
we'll get into that. But Nick, you were making a point about Bigelow's

566
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:14.760
involvement. Yes, one of the
critical points about the New York Times story

567
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:22.159
about the Pentagon's UFO investigations is the
fact that this was moved very quickly out

568
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:30.079
of government into the private sector into
of course below aerospace. But I've seen

569
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:37.639
this before in some of my UK
work in relation to Project Condine, as

570
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:44.360
I mentioned the Intelligent study on UFOs, also a Defense Intelligence Staff study into

571
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:49.199
remote viewing. The move of this
into the private sector was deliberate, and

572
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:52.920
what it meant was that it was
making parliamentary or in your case in the

573
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:59.840
US congressional scrutiny more difficult, and
critically, it was taking it outside of

574
00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:04.480
the scope of the Freedom of Information
Act. Now what I see as I

575
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:08.840
look at people discuss this latest story
on the internet, is everyone's saying,

576
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.519
right, we're going to really hit
them with all these Freedom of Information Act

577
00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:15.840
requests now, and we're going to
get to the bottom of some of the

578
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:20.639
other unanswered questions here. Well,
good luck with that, but I think

579
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:23.360
people are in for a bit of
a disappointment. What you tend to get

580
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:30.320
is you get the documents at the
beginning of the program where government kind of

581
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:35.159
sets it up and then moves it
over into private sector. Then you get

582
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:40.800
whatever reports get sent back into government, but everyone knows that they are subject

583
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.159
to FOI. But what you don't
get is all the stuff in the middle

584
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:49.320
because Freedom of Information Act, of
course, doesn't apply to the private sector.

585
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:55.119
And this I'll choose my words carefully, but this is something that people

586
00:52:55.159 --> 00:53:00.840
in government know about and I'm sure
are rather pleased. I suspect it goes

587
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:07.400
a little bit further than unintended consequences. And sometimes these things are done through

588
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:13.000
new contracts, but very often I've
seen it done in the UK with an

589
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:20.119
amendment to an existing defense contract,
and so very little of the good stuff

590
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:27.880
is actually foiable. John Well,
what I want to follow is a little

591
00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:34.440
different. That has to do with
whatever we're looking at the capabilities, because

592
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:40.199
in my view, what we're looking
at in these way of craft and doing

593
00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:46.800
the highly maneuverable things is in fact
a new source of energy. So this

594
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:58.079
has geopolitical strategic consequences because I've always
said that little widgets flying around are interesting,

595
00:53:58.280 --> 00:54:04.280
but that is nothing compared to understanding
of an energy that might take us

596
00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:10.199
away from the requirement for fossil fuels
M And you think then that is as

597
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:19.360
it pertained to his story justification for
secrecy, I don't think they're there yet.

598
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:25.199
I'm just saying that that, in
my view, is the real strategic

599
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:30.840
issue. I might mention from secrecy, and I know that Lou and Chris

600
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:37.440
and I have talked about it in
an area we agree with, and they

601
00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:42.480
can talk to the UK, but
we all, I think, believe that

602
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:49.119
this has been terribly overclassified. Most
of the information really does need to get

603
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:53.320
much more into the public sector,
and actually in an area we're looking at

604
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:58.920
what we call basic science, and
I think that's what needs for the understanding

605
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:04.679
needs to be. I think what
you're alluding to, Hell may have the

606
00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:08.039
mind on it. I do think
that they're still guessing a bit, but

607
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:15.880
you know it's certainly worth exploration.
M hm. So I think what and

608
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.679
I think I've talked to both of
you on this before, but you both

609
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.760
kind of describe, is that then
the military is kind of in this bind

610
00:55:24.039 --> 00:55:31.440
that the UFO phenomena is politically embarrassing, but at the same time, the

611
00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:38.239
potential payoff is huge. It's either
developing these weapons systems and being the first

612
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:46.119
to get there, or it is
developing these energy systems, these power systems,

613
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:52.400
which is also a huge payoff.
So they have this huge reason to

614
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:58.800
do it, but how to do
it is a bit tricky, Yes,

615
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:04.760
just a bit of that we would
and I think the people listening to the

616
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:09.639
program may agree with that, but
that is not a universally held position.

617
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:15.840
One of the big findings in the
study that I ran was that nobody's in

618
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:22.199
charge. And if you listen to
Chris Mellen, who was in a position

619
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:27.719
to oversee a lot of things,
that's basically his position. Now nobody is

620
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:31.440
in charge, at least not at
a high enough level that can coordinate all

621
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:37.880
of the activities that would be necessary
for a fully integrated program. Rather,

622
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:40.880
they were and I do know that
they were hit and miss as to how

623
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:46.559
the information was derived, whether they
ever even heard about it. So the

624
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:52.440
loss of command and control, and
you do have a number of people internally

625
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:57.039
who think it's all bs. You
know, this is all a waste of

626
00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:01.360
time and energy. So you've got
to be willing to accept, hey,

627
00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:07.400
the reality of the phenomenon and be
take it the next step farther in understanding

628
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:15.440
the implications again at a strategic geopolitical
level before you're doing it. And I

629
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:21.159
don't think there's a lot of people
who are willing to make those leaps.

630
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:29.400
And yes, that I think is
something that certainly resonates with me. You

631
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:35.000
know, I think here in the
US, given this this confusion we have

632
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:42.159
over who's in charge all the different
agencies involved, the private sector involvement too,

633
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:50.000
perhaps these new revelations can can lead
to a reassessment of this in government.

634
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:52.519
Now. Of course, I'm completely
out of the game anyway, and

635
00:57:52.960 --> 00:58:00.960
the US is not my area of
expertise, But coming at this from my

636
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:06.679
background, I can't help but think
that that here in the US OSTP,

637
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:12.239
you know, might might be well
placed to get a grip on this,

638
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:20.159
and maybe Office of Science and Knowledgy
Policy, White House o STP and the

639
00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.960
director there kind of maybe you know, bang a few heads together, sit

640
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:29.360
around and say, look, what
have we got here? Who has done

641
00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:34.239
what? How can we try and
draw some of these threads together, and

642
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:38.960
how can we decide, you know
what, what have we got here?

643
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:44.920
What do we need to do and
who should be doing it? Which I'm

644
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:47.960
not optimistic. It's it's a good
idea and what needs to be done,

645
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:53.320
But I'm not optimistic in the current
environment where you can't get them to even

646
00:58:53.400 --> 00:59:00.719
listen to you know, climate science, if you will. The evidence is

647
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:06.960
already overwhelming and happening, and yet
they fail to respond for political reasons.

648
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:14.559
Well, I think that I share
your your view that it's perhaps an optimistic

649
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:19.519
thing. I mean, I think
in the current administration this can probably only

650
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:25.079
happen top down, and I sincerely
hope that President Trump will be listening to

651
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:30.400
all this and you know, thinking, my goodness, what a confused mess

652
00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:37.159
the US government has gotten itself into
with this difficult and controversial subject over the

653
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:42.360
years. I want someone to sort
it out, and I would think that

654
00:59:42.679 --> 00:59:45.320
he would look to Director Ostp to
do it. But you know, I

655
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:50.039
hope he will look to someone.
And you know, whatever you think of

656
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:54.280
President Trump, I think we are
in this kind of top down situation where

657
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:59.519
perhaps at the moment, only the
president can say somebody you know, sort

658
00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:07.400
this out. Unfortunately are is not
on Fox and Friends? Well, and

659
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:10.880
the point that you know, I
think John is making, as you know,

660
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:15.360
given the appointments, especially appointments that
have anything to do with science or

661
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:21.599
the environment, that that have been
made with this administration, Uh, yeah,

662
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:25.920
there's there's not much hope as even
if you were to identify somebody who

663
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:30.239
that person would be, although who
knows, I guess we can hope for

664
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:35.400
the best if well, you know, even to happen. Yeah. I

665
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:38.559
mean, the point is that even
if we're pessimistic, it doesn't mean that

666
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:46.559
people shouldn't try and and I'm sure
that the Times, having broken this story

667
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:52.079
and in many ways broken something of
a taboo, aren't just going to sit

668
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:55.079
back and and forget about this.
And so, you know, one of

669
01:00:55.119 --> 01:01:00.039
the important things to do now is, you know, we can all sort

670
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:05.559
of sit around and and be pleased
about this and say, well, it's

671
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:08.760
great that this subject has got some
serious media attention. But one of the

672
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:15.119
things that it seems to me now
is what are the unanswered questions or what

673
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:21.119
questions haven't we asked yet that we
should be asking? And how do we

674
01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:22.800
then, you know, how do
we move this forward? How do we

675
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:27.920
capitalize on this? Well, I
think that's a good point. And you

676
01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:32.360
know, if we get back to
reality and how you know these people are

677
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:37.480
motivated, it's by politics, and
I think that's been an interesting aspect and

678
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.400
i'd like to get your both of
your comments, because I know you pay

679
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:45.360
attention to this sort of stuff.
It's been a weird issue UFOs when you

680
01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:50.000
get into politics. Hillary kind of
picked it up with her campaign, strangely,

681
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:54.960
seemingly influenced by John Podesta, her
campaign manager, who's into this and

682
01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:00.920
and has even had conversations with at
least Tom DeLong and maybe others this organization,

683
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:06.960
the TTSA that they created. But
right now Harry Reid is kind of

684
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:13.320
the point political guy in this,
even though he did have bipartisan support to

685
01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:19.519
create this Department of Defense initiative,
And it seems like the White House hasn't

686
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:24.639
figured out even from the campaign.
I don't think Trump has figured out which

687
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:30.599
side he wants to come down on
the whole UFO issue. Does he want

688
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:34.880
to He never wants to agree with
Hillary. But at the same time,

689
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:38.159
I think Hillary was trying to speak
to his base by even bringing up the

690
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:45.480
UFO issue, and he doesn't want
to displease his base either, So he

691
01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:49.239
hasn't said anything, and I wonder
if you all have some thoughts on that.

692
01:02:50.119 --> 01:02:53.559
Well. I think politically this is
in the noise level. One of

693
01:02:53.559 --> 01:03:00.360
the things I've mentioned unpopularly at the
conferences there is this is not a voting

694
01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:05.920
issue. They're a small group of
people who are intensely interested. You have

695
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:09.280
a large group of people who believe, but it is not something that is

696
01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:15.280
going to move politically. I don't
think it is fair to say that there

697
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:22.880
was bipartisan effort because that infers that
the parties themselves have taken positions or numbers

698
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:28.599
of what he did get was a
number of people. I was a bit

699
01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:32.800
surprised. George Knapp had a very
interesting program last night and they started talking

700
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:40.599
about Senator Stevens who had a personal
experience. So he was willing to go

701
01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:47.679
along with it because he had actually
seen an encountered a UFO as a former

702
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:58.559
Air Force pilot. But that's a
big leap from there to joint bipartisan agreement

703
01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:02.960
on it. Make it the political
nightmare, I guess, just meaning that

704
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:09.559
Stevens at least was Republican. It
wasn't just all Democrat or Republican. Right,

705
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:13.719
Well, no, it's not it, I would say more than bipartisan,

706
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:17.360
which in first party relationships it's a
lot of it is personality dependent,

707
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:23.119
and there you have somebody, I
said, with Stevens who had a personal

708
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:27.800
encounter. Now, one of the
things you Senator Reed talked about though,

709
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:32.280
was that he also took blowback from
people who said this is satanic, we

710
01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:39.480
should not have anything to do with
it, bringing into an illogical religious argument

711
01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:45.159
as well, So they're all over
the spectrum. I think it's more personality

712
01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:53.400
belief systems than it would be alignment
with any party affiliation. Nick, do

713
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:59.159
you have some thoughts? Not much
on that, frankly, I mean,

714
01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:04.960
yeah, I think it's a classic
case of UFOs should not be a political

715
01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:11.679
issue, but almost everything becomes a
political issues. It's you know, it's

716
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:16.320
tricky. Yeah, And that's the
hard part if everything becomes a political issue.

717
01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:19.800
So it either if the White House
is going to even do anything,

718
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.800
they would want to justify it,
and of course then the Democrats would it

719
01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:29.159
would attack them. But I guess
in the positive side, Democrats wouldn't really

720
01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:33.840
be as motivated to attack him on
this issue if he did something on it,

721
01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:41.639
because you know, there their candidate
and their people have been you know,

722
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:45.679
the recent people to be pushing this
forward. Even though in history,

723
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:49.920
you know, we do have some
big names in the Republican Party who have

724
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:57.719
been big on this issue. Goldwater, somewhat Reagan, but uh, you

725
01:05:57.760 --> 01:06:04.599
know for some others. But remember
you have Jimmy Carter, obviously a Democrat,

726
01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:13.400
who had a personal observation and it
was interesting because there's some story is

727
01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:17.400
out on it, because he did
ask officially. I forget which of the

728
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:24.199
organization, but I think it was
the opposite Science Technology to look at it.

729
01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:29.199
So it's National told the backsand yeah
it was NASA and the Air Force

730
01:06:29.239 --> 01:06:32.679
advice NASA don't do it. But
I want to ask this question before we

731
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:35.800
run out of time of each of
you, and I guess we'll start with

732
01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:41.800
Nick. Is this news, this
revelation of this organization in the DoD a

733
01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:45.280
big deal? And if so,
how much of a big deal? It

734
01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:49.800
is a big deal in one sense, it shouldn't surprise anyone that government looks

735
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:56.199
at this. And I'd be frankly
concerned if pilots are seeing things and things

736
01:06:56.239 --> 01:07:00.639
are being tracked on radar and somebody
isn't looking at it would be a scandal.

737
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:06.320
So it's but it's it's a big
deal. Clearly, The Times as

738
01:07:06.360 --> 01:07:14.239
a paper of record is very important
here. We wait to see where we

739
01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:17.880
go. I think the next week
or so it's going to be very interesting.

740
01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:23.280
And there are still some important unanswered
questions. The references, for example,

741
01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:28.079
to recovered materials, What materials are
those, where are they currently stored,

742
01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:31.119
what tests were done on them?
And what conclusions, if any,

743
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:36.440
were found. So plenty of issues
and plenty of unanswered questions still right,

744
01:07:36.840 --> 01:07:41.480
And actually there has been some positive
movement in that. For instance, Robert

745
01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:45.239
Powell, he's part of the Scientific
Coalition of Euphology and he's a researcher.

746
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:49.639
For a while he's been investigating that
Nimae case and he's been told to PACs

747
01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:55.360
and with his Voyer requests. But
now that this has been released, he

748
01:07:55.480 --> 01:07:58.360
went back to them and say,
hey, wait a second, and they

749
01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:00.960
said, okay, we're going to
be releasing some information soon, so we

750
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:05.599
do have some more They're actually going
to respond to some of these Foyer requests

751
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:11.159
on this limit siding. But John, your thoughts on is this a big

752
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:18.199
deal? Well, I guess i'd
specific respectfully disagree with how big a deal

753
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:24.479
it is. It is certainly interesting. One of the points is that if

754
01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:27.359
you look at what we did versus
what they do now, they have better

755
01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:31.399
sensors. There's no doubt about that
they have collected more data. But I

756
01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:35.399
don't think they have any better answers. So you've got to remember that this

757
01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:42.439
is a phenomenon that transcends basically time
and space. It has been going on

758
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:47.960
for millennia. I suspect in the
long run it's going to be a hiccup.

759
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:54.239
Who knows, Maybe they can,
you know, generate some interest.

760
01:08:54.279 --> 01:09:00.640
Now. One of Tom Delong's areas
of interest, aside from the technology aspects,

761
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:08.479
is to get younger folks more actively
involved and interested in exploring these topics.

762
01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:13.119
That would be a plus because basically, if you look at the folks

763
01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:16.800
there and a lot of us,
and we're talking about dinosaurs, we need

764
01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:23.560
a lot of young folks that have
the technical expertise to come up behind us

765
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:27.640
and carry the torch forward. Well, one of the things they mentioned is

766
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:30.239
that Bigelow and you would and would
have more insight than the rest of us,

767
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:33.399
since you've been very close with Big
Low and you're in Nevada. That

768
01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:39.720
Big Low has some sort of mysterious
metal from a UFO. It's been kind

769
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:44.319
of implied. Would that be a
big deal if they have some metal?

770
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:50.840
It may or it may not be. I have argued that looking for unobtainium

771
01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:58.520
is probably not the right way to
go. I hate to say the area.

772
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.479
I agree with Sagan And you know, if you look at contact,

773
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:08.000
how did they make it? It
was by transferring information and using the materials

774
01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:15.560
that were available at the destination.
When back when we were at NIDS was

775
01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:23.279
still in existence, we did have
some pieces and had it analyzed, but

776
01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:30.159
I never saw anything that indicated again
it was unobtainium or something that was totally

777
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:41.399
unexplained. We have had this sort
of material reported for many decades. If

778
01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:45.239
they have something and we have not
seen the reports, obviously that says it

779
01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:50.199
is totally you knew and we don't
know how to do it, then that

780
01:10:50.279 --> 01:11:00.600
would be of interest. Some of
the proponents for roswell and other things suggest

781
01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:04.880
that maybe these are being intentionally left
for us. You know, there's not

782
01:11:05.159 --> 01:11:13.039
accidental. It's here for us to
research and try to make steps forward in

783
01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:18.199
metallurgy or you know, other materials
science. M well, we're pretty much

784
01:11:18.279 --> 01:11:24.720
out of time. That time went
like so quickly speaking of space time anomalies.

785
01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:29.039
But I'll give you both ten seconds. Yeah, of course, it's

786
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:31.680
very little time to say anything.
But if you had one final remark,

787
01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:35.640
Nick, what would that be?
It would be to keep an eye on

788
01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:40.239
this story as it develops over the
next few weeks. There's more to come,

789
01:11:41.119 --> 01:11:45.000
John, I certainly agree with that, and we're hoping that some of

790
01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:51.159
these reports get released to the public
where they should be right, so,

791
01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:55.479
and I think we will be seeing
more. So thank you guys so much

792
01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:59.399
for joining us, and we'll be
talking to you soon, I'm sure.

793
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.640
Thank you, Thank you both.
All right, thanks guys. I will

794
01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:09.920
probably get this up tomorrow and I'll
send you guys the links and then it'll

795
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:14.399
be on kg r A on Monday
night. So thank you so much.

796
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:16.520
I knew it would be interesting.
Well, if I don't speak to you

797
01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:23.359
all before, Happy Christmas, yes, Happy Christmas, Happy Christmas, Merry

798
01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:30.399
Christmas. If you say happy Holidays, then you're capetually well you see,

799
01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:38.159
even that's political now, I know
everything, even Santa Claus is political.

800
01:12:38.319 --> 01:12:42.399
Well, Marry Holidays. Well like
this. We didn't get into it,

801
01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:46.479
but we used to say, you
know, from a intelligence standpoint that if

802
01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:53.000
you said good morning, you could
classify it because good modified the morning and

803
01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:58.840
offered information about that's pretty funny.
Thank you so much to Nick Pope and

804
01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:02.920
to John Alex. I think besides
the primary people involved, they're the absolute

805
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:08.159
best people to talk to. You
can find information about both of them at

806
01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:13.199
their websites. John's website is John
Blexander dot com and Nick Pope's I believe

807
01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:15.560
it's Nickpope dot net, but if
you just google Nick Pope you'll find them

808
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:18.920
all over the place, so check
that out. Thanks guys, Thank you

809
01:13:18.920 --> 01:13:23.119
to Martin for joining us at the
beginning of the show, and I do

810
01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:28.039
want to wish everybody some happy holidays, including Caleb Hanks, thank you for

811
01:13:28.079 --> 01:13:31.279
doing the opening and Closed Music Systematics
who does a bumper music. And be

812
01:13:31.600 --> 01:13:39.119
sure to go register for the UFO
Congress ufocongress dot com right now. Above

813
01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:44.399
all times, it's important to get
there so we can have these conversations and

814
01:13:44.479 --> 01:13:48.680
no doubt everybody's going to be sharing
some interesting takes on this recent news and

815
01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:56.439
we'll have some more to share about
guests related to this very important news.

816
01:13:56.680 --> 01:14:59.439
Anyway, you all have a wonderful
holiday week. Until next time, Adios moved tatos