Welcome to the Seafood Matters Podcast. I'm your host, Jim Cowie. In
each episode, I speak with industry leaders, fishery scientists, fishermen and seafood
chefs. Will highlight the importance of seafood in our daily lives, economy and
environment. Whether you catch your own seafood, love cooking it, or want
to learn more about where your fish comes from, you'll find it all here
on the Seafood Matter's podcast. If you enjoy this episode, hit subscribe,
share it with a friend, or leave a five star review, and you
can get in touch with me by visiting Seafood matterspodcast dot com. Gara Brodson
is Executive Director of Fisheries Innovation and Sustainability, based in Pitlochry, a town
north of Perth in central Scotland. With an impressive track record of supporting fisheries
in Scotland. Since twenty fourteen, this organization has invested more than three million
pounds into innovations for achieving sustainability in the UK seafood industry. In this episode,
Kara discusses how modern fishing technologies are being used to secure a more stable
future for both fishermen and the environment. And she also shares her goals to
a various sectors within the fishing industry achieve clear communications with each other to secure
the sustainable future she envisions. Welcome to Seafood Matters podcast to Kara Bridesin here
involved in fishing innovation and sustainability, which is a pretty important subject to the
to the fishing industry. Can you tell us about it please? With your
role is that's right? Fisheries innovation and sustainability. We're a coalition of experts.
Some folk hate to be called an expert, but I would count on
people being experts. I would count them as such, and that includes active
fishermen themselves. And our job is to come together to champion innovation to support
sustainable and prosperous fisheries. So look for those projects that can help businesses,
fishermen themselves, and the communities that support them. Yeah. I'm in my
seventies and I've been in the fishing industry. My father was a fisherman,
So all my friends and come back to school that I would have to say
that fishermen are very open to change and learning new things always have been,
even with innovation stronger now than it possibly was before. But they were still
very adaptable. That's absolutely the case. What sometimes trips people up with my
with this small group of people is what is innovation. And I'm always very
quick to say that it's many things to many people. But sometimes people think
that it just has to be about new and shiny bits of kit. But
also and it can be. It can be new bits of gee or new
widgets, so to speak. But actually it's about new ways of working together,
new ways of talking to each other, new ways of sharing information is
a really important thing, and new ways of doing things. There's that old
saying that in innovation that if you're doing things you always the way you've always
done them, you're probably doing them wrong. And I don't actually agree with
that because I think there are still you know, if you've done something and
it works for you, and it works for your business, then that's great.
But if you're needing some new ways of things to really help your business,
whether it's to make yourself improve markets, improve sustainability, improve relationships with
your customers, then maybe there are things that we can do to help you
improve that. And I think it's about new ways of telling your story as
well. I think is really important for us as a seafood industry because there
are so many misconceptions out there about businesses, individuals practices. So if we
can help by giving new information about our brilliant businesses, then that to me
is an innovation as well. It's not all about, you know, a
bit of kick to make a change. But something that I always want to
say to people as well is that when things are tough and people have a
job to do, the last thing some folk want to do is to to
raise their heads and think about new things. If stuff is if it's difficult
enough finding your markets and your customers and finding crew or finding workers, then
why on earth would you embrace change? And that, I think is what
Fizz is there to do. A group of people that are there to help
take the strain and to help maybe finding the practical and timely ways of improving
what's happening out there. Because some people do come to me and say,
oh what is that? Was that woman on about? Now? What fresh
hell is this? And I completely understand that, but I think the last
thing I'll say on this is innovations not a nice to have. It's not
a sort of okay, well, when everything's working well, we'll think about
it in the future. It's often at the difficult times that you really need
to find those innovative and new ways of doing things or working together, because
otherwise, if you want to wait for that perfect moment, it will probably
never come. So now is the time to help make those changes for good.
You know my experience working very closely with fishermen, even going to school,
a lot of fishermen in my class and classes roomed. They maybe didn't
win, they maybe weren't first in French and Latin and subject like the subject
like that, but they are masters of their own profession. Absolutely so our
board. The people who govern and pay for is are Sainsbury's Marks and Spencer's
Fishmonger's Company, Young Seafood and Seafish Industry Authority. But we have a stakeholder
committee that is made up of lots of people from lots of businesses along the
supply chain. And what we always say is nothing about us without us.
So when people at one end of the supply chain has an idea, you
have to ground truth it with the person at the other and say, okay,
what does that mean for all of us? So absolutely making sure that
the people with that knowledge, the practical working knowledge are there right at the
beginning of an idea. Otherwise there's absolutely no point in taking time spending money
if the person who has to actually implement the change or trial the thing goes,
well, what on earth's the point of that? So yeah, everything
we do has to be practical. The work that we do at FIZZ is
never just going to be an interesting idea in a report. It has to
be practical and something you can implement on the water or on the key side
will actually make difference for folk. So yes, having that expertise directly from
whether it's a fisherman or a processor or somebody who knows about clients is really
important. You know, there's a situation I was told about two people,
cousins of mine. One of them was a successful fishermen for many years.
He had his own boats. He's builked about three new boats, improving and
getting on. He's eighty six, he's eighty seven as we speak. His
brother, he's younger brother, who's got a small boat at the kreels and
they do some jigging and handlines and they were out just about a month ago,
and they were he was trying to get some haddocks and the brother system.
He says, you won't get haddigs here. So they steamed roughly five
mile. They put the lines down and immediately they started catching Hurdick. Now
he's retired, he's off the sea and retired. Boats sold for thirty years
now, and there's no There was no electronic equipment to guide them to the
spot. It was all done by landmarks where the moon was or the sun
was at the time of the day. I mean, that's that's clever.
It's funny. Not that often, but I will fairly regularly somebody will get
in touch, probably not from the fishing industry directly, but they'll say,
we have this brilliant idea and they can't you know, it's to help somebody
do X or Y. And I always, because I'm not a fisherman,
I'm not a scientist, you know, I'll always take any ideas, even
if after twenty years of me working with this even industry, even after twenty
years, I think, well, you know who am I to say?
So I will take it to somebody in the stakeholder committee, or I'll pick
up the phone and people are pretty used to me asking daft glassy questions after
this all this time, and I'll say, look, there's this idea of
what do you think? And I'm usually kind of sort of right when people
say, well, what's the point of that? We already do it by
this way or that way. So often people will come up with some very
fancy idea and the way that it's being done just now will probably be all
right ideas well. Know, if it's a great idea, somebody will take
you up in it, so as often people sledge hammer to crack a nut
sometimes when people just are doing a good job as it is. However,
we have to learn to learn from other sectors. So there may be things
I don't know until fairly recently that how strong the UK is in satellite technology.
Now are the things happening in satellite technology that could help the seafood industry.
We need to keep our options and our minds open. Similarly, in
the biotech community. Now they don't know about fishing and we don't really know
so much about them. But look what they've managed to do in Iceland in
terms of using waste product for biotech products. And one of my jobs is
to try and almost speed date these industries together and say you might not know
about us, but hey, do you know that we've got this buy product
that might be useful to you? And similarly, oh, I didn't know
that Scotland was really up there in the race for satellite technology. How could
you as one of the newer industries, help us as one of the more
traditional industries. So trying to learn from each other, but not jumping on
every great idea that some Tom Dick and Harry come to us about. One
of the things I read party or website was simply getting better at old ideas
as well. I think that's how I like to hear that, because just
made the say because it was in the past that they're bad. Absolutely not,
and if they're still going then there's definitely something in them. But I
always say, if somebody is using is there a way to optimize it?
If somebody has found out a good idea but maybe doesn't know that there's help
out there or money out there to help them make the most of it,
and that's something that physis. Over a long period of time we've managed to
leverage funding for good ideas to help our industry. There is money out there
that often goes in my mind to the people who can't implement it as well
as we could ourselves. So making sure that if there is support there for
good ideas, that it comes directly to the fishing industry, not for other
people to decide what would be good for the seafood industry, but for the
seafood industry to do themselves, because there are a lot of people pushing for
change within the seafood industry in the UK, and sometimes that's legislative, so
sometimes it's political timelines or political ideas. Sometimes it's coming from consumers or customers
themselves, and you can't just stick your head in the sad, is my
view personally, I think, because if you do, changes will be pushed
upon us that don't work for us. So surely it's better that we think,
okay, well, if we do have to think about humane handling on
nit zero vessels, what would be best for us, because in the example
of looking for to reducing your reliance on diesel, for example, if other
maritime industries are looking at ports and harbors and infrastructure and safety training, we
might end up with what's best for them and not best for the fishing industry
themselves. And what we did was we asked a young Scottish skipper to go
to Norway to look at what they were doing in terms of finding alternative fuels
for fishing vessels, and he very strongly said that a wrong move now pushed
upon us by other maritime sectors might have really serious consequences for the viability of
our fleets here. So rather than wait for other people to push things upon
us, I always think it's better for us to start thinking about opportunities that
will vet us. Now, it might be that people don't want to open
a particular Pandora's box, and that's when people, I know that we'll be
some folk go, oh, why earth is she talking about net zero vessels?
Why earth are we thinking about looking at stunning machines, for example.
But if we don't think of it for ourselves, then we might not like
what is pushed upon us further down the line. Yes, one hundred percent
with you there. And the other factor that built into that is fishermen.
They are one hundred percent committed themselves in every aspect of the word financially as
well. Now I've come across many, many for semen in my days who
have really got a massive commitment with the securities they have to put up to
get their new boats and get them working, and and any new innovation or
any new gear or that, as far as the fisherman is concerned, it's
money. And I think that the thing that we on the board and our
stakeholder committee that we shout about, I think the loudest in the minute,
is that there are many fishermen out there that are early adopters and innovators and
they are the real pioneers for ideas. But nobody should be expected to take
the risks on themselves. And so that for early adopters of new ideas should
be able to access financial assistance, they should be able to get business advice
for what they're doing. They need to get regulatory support. So we have
an example of a skipper here in Scotland who has developed his vessel to work
on electric and in hybrid solutions and even trying to get sign off for that
vessel from the authorities has been really difficult. Now, I always believe if
we're teaching the regulators about something that's new, then you shouldn't be having to
pay for that. You should be supported in helping us all as a community
learn how we're going to deal with new ideas. So IZ, we're here
to say, okay, well, let's all of us bear the brunt for
those early adopters, because business is already tricky enough without expecting individual businesses or
individual families to try and kind of forge ahead with good ideas that will eventually
help us all. So now we understand that, you know, some businesses
want to keep things kind of quiet, complete understanding everything we do a VIZ
is pre competitive, and we want the ideas to be open for everyone to
have the opportunity to take things forward. And because of that, then no
individual should bear the brunt of that. And that's why we think that there
needs to be financial assistance, business assistance, even some kind of benefits to
those businesses that trial new things and help us learn the pitfalls as well as
hopefully see a positive way ahead with some of these ideas. Immediately, when
you said that the trouble your skipper had getting it through, you just wonder
if they thought it is who speaking to even understand it possibly comment when it's
new to all of us. It must be quite difficult for an individual within
another, within a regulator to go yep, okay, let's try it.
I find it very difficult to I feel it's getting increasingly difficult for the industry
to be given the benefit of the doubt to try new things. When you
look at countries such as Iceland, I know it's a completely different setup and
it's very unfair often to compare one country to another, But there are countries
where that culture of innovation is embeddied into management and regulation and the industry.
It would be fantastic if whenever there were good ideas for the seafood industry to
take forward, that there was that sort of public license or political license for
us to go ahead and try good things. Sometimes the impression that people who
don't know about seafood and fishing, the impression they have of us, can
stop people from giving us that benefit of the doubt because they might automatically fail.
Or while they would say that wouldn't be they want more money, or
they want more fishing, or they want more of this or that. Actually,
what we want is to make the best out of our fishing opportunity and
make the best out of our businesses, having the best products, selling it
to the best markets. And often I don't think we're given that public license
to try new things. Yeah, a lot of it is trust, and
you can understand why, and don't trust everybody because quite often they're ended.
They end up not what there was, not just as rosy as it was
promised. Moving on, Kara have to say that I really fascinates me your
organization, and I genuinely mean that takes me back myself, because it's why
I was so pleased to see the better at older ideas, because I think
it's fantastic for your organization to have so many different bodies and boarding supermarkets,
fishermen, You're going ride through the chain, and I think it is so
important and I think at credit to you all for doing that. I can
go back to the eighties and I was agency for quite a number of fishing
boats, and I had a lot of connections with fish processors and obviously selling
fish to them, and so we put it together and I don't really worry
too much about mentioning names, not individuals' names, but we took a thing
together which was so successful for over twenty years with fishing boats. We had
a guaranteed price reviewed every three months and that went to one of the major
fish processors, and on board two was some of the major supermarkets, M
and S and Tesco's were two of them. So we had the fishermen myself
is the agent, processor and the supermarket, and that fishermen knew exactly as
he was taking hat to say, for example, Haddick, as he was
taking haddock and ties on board his boat, he knew exactly how that haddock
would be presented to the public and the supermarket itself. And the fishermen enjoyed
it because they had a stable I think the new as are almost as our
fish was getting caught, and the tally, the weights and grades that were
coming from the fish room, they could almost work out their tally. So
they knew exactly how they were doing. And the supermarket and the processor knew
what their products were going to be, like I want their production. So
seeing what you're doing now, it takes me back to that. And you
know, I don't think that's impossible still, but I bet it was difficult.
Bet it was hard to do. And with our digitalization project, even
what we found is even with great people being around the table, it's quite
hard to make sure that that trust and understanding of what new ideas like digitalization,
what that means to go back a bit and this, so this was
I mean, to be honest, the idea of digitalization. I don't think
I really understood what what it was, what it meant, and why you
wanted it. So often it's how you start talking about a concept or an
idea because straight away some people you know, friends and colleagues and you know,
the communities be working, think that data sharing is always going to work
against So it's about you know, it's a big brother idea. And I
talk a lot about data for good rather than evil, so it's not always
about it. It's the carrot as well as the stick when it comes to
data sharing, and so quite rightly people were like, well, well,
actually we're all right the way that we talk to our supply chains. So
we worked with Frank Fleming, are very fat, used to be a fisherman
and works a lot with the Irish fishing industry, and we try to understand
what would better data collection do for the people who are catching. As you
know, sometimes when you talk about a project, the captors might think,
well it'll benefit the processors or the process will only benefit the retailers. Trying
to find a project that ticks everybody's boxes. Is as opposed the Holy Grail,
and we were able to say, look, if we use digital technology
to capture information once and share it to those people who need it, but
under you know, really clear sharing agreements, so it's not going to go
far wide, but just sharing the important data with people who need it.
Look what it could do. It could add value to the catches. It
would give clarity to the supply chain in terms of how much something's worth.
It could mean that you have more confidence in a transpart supply chain. Consumers
might want to know more about you know, you can prove the ethical and
the providence credentials of what you're selling so that there are benefits to everybody.
It's not just about management governance. It's also about just as I say,
telling your story, making more money for your product, and making sure that
you can access those markets that really require more information along the supply chain.
And so just having a lot of time to talk about the benefits of data
sharing was really useful. Let alone, yes, let's use our data,
fisheries data to help answer some of those scientific or sustainability questions, because it
just it helps tell our story in a way that's much more positive than if
people assume that we're trying to hide things. So working with that projet it
wasn't easy because people already have busy jobs and trying to say, well,
if we can improve the way you share information. When we get it right,
it could save time and effort because you're letting people know what they need
to know at the right time. It sounds simple, it was still difficult.
We're still working on it, so it's great to hear that you've had
positive responses in the past. Yeah, I think been realistic. A lot
of the problems, not one person or not one sector, is a basic
mistrust, and I would say, yes, I had possibly had in some
ways. I wouldn't like to say it was all me. It was not
me because there were fishermen. As I said, it went on for twenty
years. But I think in fairness, the fishermen the same as everybody else
worldwide. There's certain people who will stick by their word and be stable and
loyal, and there's some that dont. So I think we possibly had the
right people. But the mistrust was in all sights because you would get some
processor saying oh, we were getting fish from somebody. But it all stopped
when when the market price started rising. You would hear things coming from a
supermarket which I have to say myself, greats with me when I see it.
You'll see a advert for let's say, supporting British fishermen, and you
look at the packs of fish in their counters and it's Norwegian, icelandic Russia
and even and I just often think, well, what support for British fishermen
is that. So there's there's a mistrust all along the way, but it
shows that if you get the right people and the right product, yes it
can work. And I am absolutely sure it still can. I think there's
that whole supply chain digitalization work to improve traceability and verification. It takes a
leap of faith, it takes everybody committing to something. I always say that
for a lot of innovation takes time and it takes trust, and so you
have to work together for a while before we really get the good stuff.
But that's why when we piloted these piloting in a project can mean that there's
a safe space to try things. And I'm always very clear to say just
because you pilot something doesn't mean that will be an automatic. The next step
is full blown project roll out across the country. It's a way to iron
out the problems, find out who you can really work with, make sure
every bree continues to be happy. But if if it's not showing, if
it's not helping somebody save time, save money, access markets, and then
that's when you have to ask yourself, well, what's the point. Maybe
the idea is too soon, or maybe it's just not the idea that we
thought it was. So you've always got to be able to tweak things and
consider next steps. Just because you start a good idea, things might change
fairly quickly, but fundamentally understanding, sharing information, telling the story, helping
people provide information. Once you know there's lots of different certification schemes, different
markets have to requirements. You have to tell a lot of people about your
product. So if you can do that once safely, efficiently, and that
information is shared along the supply chain to those who need to know, then
that might save you time, It improves confidence in your product, It might
help you access a market as a particular requirement. But now we were always
very clear to say it's not for everybody. If you sell product at market
and that's it, and you can always shift around it. Then maybe you
don't need it. But if you want to have pride in a product that
goes into a particular supply chain, then you might need to gather share information
in a different way and that's what we'd be here to help you with.
Yes, someone with you there one hundred percent, Cara, because the point
you're actually making, although I'm maybe saying it in slightly different words, it
can be the best product in the world, which Scottish fish is in that
cut degree as far as I'm concerned. But we still have to sell it.
You have to market it. It doesn't happen on its own. And
if we can't give you obviously in physics UK organization, but for anybody,
whether you're selling from from Cornwall or all from Scotland, if you're not meeting
market requirements then we're not charities. You have to provide the vision, the
quality and the quantity that is required of that market. Now, again,
if there's a mismatch, there is something that an organization that FIZZ can do
to help. But it's understanding the needs I think the days of catching and
then just you know, selling it on the market, not knowing where that
goes. Those days are gone. What does your customer need? What does
your supply chain require you to do? Because you have to show your workings,
whether that's on requirements now, but where it's caught, whether it's requirements
in the future about other things such as the handling of the fish or your
vessel emissions. Who knows what's going to be required in the future. And
again that's part of our job of FIZZ is to try and work out what
will be required of you in the future and making sure that we can help
businesses prepare for that, to make sure they're still safe, they're still competitive,
and that they're meeting these market requirements. On your innovation side, can
you tell me something about Smartral Smartral now this is this is the brainchild of
Professor Paul Fernandez, who used to be at Aberdeen University in at Henriott What
University in the Lyle Center and their National Obitarium, and it is really exciting.
It's something that FIZ has supported right from the very beginning. It's a
FIZZ project where what we hope to happen and we are a bit away from
this, but we're getting nearer, is that the system will allow skippers to
select the fish that they want to catch, keep that valuable catch, but
release unwanted fish, unharmed, back into the seat. And this is all
happening at the beginning of the net in the water, in water selectivity,
precision fishing, these are all these big words that are being used just now.
So it is it's a stereo camera with lighting in the troll extension,
high quality images of fish entering cod end. The onboard computer then identifies the
size and species and so the decision is made in real time whether the fish
go into the cod end or don't. And that's using this very novel gate
sustem that we've patented. So we've got a long way to go. Innovation
takes time to go through lots of iterations of making things sure things work in
different situations. But the pieces of the system are now being brought together.
They've being trial at see by the University Highlands and Island Shetland, and we
are we've been at sea in commercial vessels and we are making great strides towards
what would be the biggest response to the landing obligation and all the other requirements
to make sure that you catch what you want to catch, and you're releasing
what you don't want to catch on hand back into the sea. That seems
pretty impressive. And there's I take it's like cameras at the at the net
and the skipper can be in the wheelose watching. That's what we're aiming for
at the minute. We're just making the component pieces work, so an awful
lot of AI artificial intelligence making sure that the camera would know what the particulars
fish are. That's a new thing. The gate which either allows the fish
to enter the colldent or make sure that other animals because again it's for animals
you don't want to catch, so that that's not an issue. So all
of these things are coming together. If your listeners want to know more,
we've got a great video on the Fizz website which hopefully that can access and
you'll see it in action. We've got some lovely drone footage and footage of
the skipper up in Shetland using this. So as I say, we're at
that point where we know it can work. We're bringing the different components together
to try and show that as a whole it would work. And we actually
had it over in Dubai for the cop Coffers of parties in November where people
are really interested in what we're doing, and we want to make sure that
this would be a piece of kit that would work for UK skippers so that
it's not going to We would want it to be affordable and access so that
skippers could use it. Again, as I say, everything we do at
FEZ is about being practical and affordable and make a difference on the water.
It's really exciting and as I know full well from many years of experience,
if it's practical and it works and makes sense, a fisherman will wear it.
We've been really lucky that not only have the board members been excited about
this, but also our stakeholder committee members. So of course as ever as
you'll know, fishermen will ask the point questions will We were at the Scottish
Skipper Expo in Aberdeen last year showing images that we've gathered from the bits of
kept and of course of people saying well how does that work and how would
that work? And what would happen if you've got a tree stuck in that
and what would you know? All of these questions are so important because there's
lots of things that the cleverest people in the world won't thought of that a
skipper or somebody working in a boat will go, But what if that happens?
And that's why all the time we're trying to make sure that the team
at Harriet Watt and Paul Fernande's team are bringing it all together, that we're
asking those really practical questions of well, what would happen if this happened on
both the vessels And of course now we've shown that the kit can go,
can enter the water safely, can be brought up safely. Safety is always
the biggest thing in my mind. How would this help keep people safe and
competitive? How would it build their business? And yeah, if we can
prove it works, then people will want it. It's really encouraging and as
I'm well aware, i'm talking to the converted when I say it to you,
but fisherman will accept it and if we can prove it works, but
they will contribute to anything they can to make sure it does work. And
I think it's I think it's fantastic for the project that they're talking and listening
to fishermen because they know that that's their environment. They know that, and
it's really great with a lot of them at times when scientists who are making
ridiculous decisions, ridiculous in their minds is they've never spoken to a fisherman.
Yes, well, and I'm not. I don't come from a fishing family,
come from a farming family. And I do say, it's still that
same generation cynical West of Scotlanders. So unless it's doing what it's meant to
do, then let's not get excited. I'm the word is that they're going,
okay, we need we need critical friends to come and say what about
this? How will we make that better? And even when the whole thing's
work out, you know, as you know, every boat is different,
every skipper is different, every you know, what you're using to fish where
and when is different, and we will have to test this on all these
different points before I can be happy to say, okay, it's a thing.
I get that. But there's two points, two words you mentioned there
which I'll maybe just slightly pull you up, and one of them was let's
not get excited. And my answer to that would be why not because members
of my stakeholder committee have told me so often. You know, I can
get I can get way too enthusiastic about things and all it takes is one
person saying, but what about That's okay, that's okay. But I bet
you the type of person you are, you just shrug your shoulders and say,
right, let's listen to what about. It doesn't put you down.
No. The other thing I was going to point out just minutes ago there
you expressed to me how lucky you were, Cara, I don't believe you're
talking to the wrong person. I don't believe in luck. We make our
own luck, we work for it. So it's not you're lucky, you're
working, working hard. That's that's very kind of Again, it's but I
do genuinely really appreciate the individual board members and stakeholder committee members who give their
time for this and they are a brilliant bunch of people that all are so
genuinely enthusiastic about their industry and the businesses, and I think that's just fantastic
and I do appreciate them. That's why I'm saying it's not luck. I
know a lot of the people you're talking about. It's not luck. I
always We've got my chairman is our German is John Goodlad from Shetland, and
it's just fantastic to have John, given that he's an author and historian and
he knows so much about our industry's past and how we've come but yet he's
so in stressed in what we're going into and the opportunities going forward. So
often we talk as an organization about those opportunities and yes, there are threats
and there are worries, but there are so many great things that we can
look forward to. And it's brilliant to have people like John who know so
much about where we've come from but still get very excited about the opportunities in
the future. A huge respect for John. I know him very well for
a long time, and in fact, before this podcast will be released,
there'll be two with John just before that. Oh locally bored of its so
yeah, really good classroom as a really close friend, and exactly everything you
said he goes. But like I said earlier about myself, his father,
his parents, his family were fishing, so he knows the industry so well.
And I remember when he was in the SFF and the Shetland Fishermen's Association
in the Scottish and that he had a huge respect from government ministers and they
really light speaking to him because they knew they could trust them. He had
a great rapport with all sectors of the industry. I thought it was fantastic.
So you're in good hands with the organization going on from a brow.
While innovation we've talked about all the innovation, but sustainability class sustainability, it's
really important for the fishing industry. But unfortunately I often classic as the most
abused word in the English language because a lot of people use it with absolutely
no depth whatsoever behind it. One of the things that I do feel from
speaking to many fishermen in all methods of fishing, from bottom trawling, saying
itting, scallop dredging, they'll go For example, good close close friends of
mine who are scallop dreaders, who over the course of the year will go
right round the British isles different times of the year, fishing different areas depending
on the season. And in one case a close friend he has been over
forty years doing it, and as he says, well, what's not sustainable
about that? So as I always feel that I have to remind people,
and as don't know when I've first started working with in maritime work within seafood,
but more from fishy side. You know, my background is with non
governmental organizations, environmental organizations, and there are there are some individuals in the
industry that still remember me is or they say, oh, you're on bird
coin because I used to work with with the are SPB and with other organizations.
You know, I do feel really keenly that we show and we prove
our credentials about being that dreadful word sustainable in all aspects, and I think
that we can do that. I get worried when people who maybe don't understand
the industry, and I'm not pretending at all that I do understand all aspects
of it, even I feel that I'm getting there slightly. But this idea
that we should all move to one kind of gear, or we could all
move to one kind of fishery just has shows such a lack of understanding about
markets and how the different fisheries that we require to catch different fish to supply
different markets. And something that we've spoken about a lot with different groups like
Fishing into the Future and others, is this idea of fishing litle you say,
so you have people from the communities of Insoe Fishing Alliance that are really
great about this, saying people we need to explain to people what our industry
does and explain that there are different kinds of fisheries for different fish in different
places, and really to help people understand the complexity of supply chains, and
hopefully that will help us get away from this idea that one kind of fishing
is good and another kind of fishing is bad when people think it's simplistic,
as small as good, large as bad, or that if you fish in
a particular manner then you are somehow salt of the earth, but if you're
a slightly larger boat fishing in a slightly different way, you're suddenly evil.
I just that I find incredibly difficult to contend with. My view is that
there are good things you can do that help in a whole in lots of
different ways. So I feel that if you are fishing smart and informed,
precision fishing for a market where you know that your quality of fish that you're
catching can get a good price, that means that you're out there for a
shorter period of time, you can reduce your emissions. You're safer because you're
not at sea, You're not being pushed to go somewhere you don't want to
go. You can save fuel, and that means that you have a quality
product that you can sell for a good price. Now, that to me
is the holy grail, and that to me is if you are fishing for
a great product for a good market in the best possible way. That to
me is sustainability. It's about that whole piece and making sure that your business
and the community that supports them are benefiting from that great way of fishing.
That's what I would like to see, you know. It's just reminding me
when you're talking there with the different methods of fishing and different times than that.
I remember my father used to tell me when he was at school,
my grandfather, his father had a boat and there were line hand lanes and
things like that, and it's my father and his brothers. They bought a
boat and went to the scene, and everybody thought, that's the finish of
the fishing. That's the end of the fishing. Now we're talking in the
early fifties, so that was going to finish the fishing. And then there
were some of them getting bigger, so that was going to finish it.
Then they started trolling, so it was definitely going to be the finish.
Then there was peared trolleys, and it just went on and every time they
saw something new, and his words here innovative, innovative, that was going
to be the finish of the fishing. And I think I think the fish
stocks are more resilient than ever people realize and don't. I don't think anybody
would argue that there are movements to be made and that where we can tread
lighter on the environment, where we can reduce emissions, where we can make
sure that the welfare of both the catch and the folk that are catching them,
we will always try and make improvements. But that's about moving forward.
It's when it's suggested that we all go back in time to something that I
probably didn't even exist in the first place, that I really worry Now.
I love the history of the industry. I love the Scottish Fish Museum,
or with the Fishmonger's Company, looking at that brilliant history of Fishmonger's Hall,
for example. That's great, but it's also about looking forward. And so
this idea that we can all go back in time to southwesterns and creoles for
everybody I really worry about, I've got just a ever so slightly different way
of saying the exact same as you said there, Kara, I am interested
in tomorrow. I have no yesterday. I don't like yesterday. You know,
the history of everything that we've done in our sees really fascinates me and
so I still love thinking about where we've come from. I'm really proud that
one of my members is the Fishmonger's Company and the fact that for seven hundred
and fifty years one of the ancient liveries, I think that's just wonderful.
When we had our the Fizz meetings in London just before Christmas at Fishmongers Hall,
and I always get such a feeling of pride when you walk in to
that building and you you know just for how long that it's been such an
important industry, the whole of the seafood sector in the UK. So does
it gives me an awful lot of pride. But I'm also get really excited
when you see some of our kind of state at the art vessels, whether
you're in Shetland or up northeat down the Southwest. So it's both sides,
isn't it. It's the history, but also that the next steps that we're
taken together, I think I got it wrong there. To be honest,
I think what I should have said was I'm more interested in tomorrow than yesterday.
Kara on the shore side, I keeping it on the subject as far
as sustainability is concerned. The last project I had had a seafood restaurant in
Scraps there and we reached the point we were number six to the top ten
sustainable restaurants in the world. With an environmental bloggers, an American outfit they
had his number six, who to the top ten in the world. We've
been this sustainable UK seafood restaurant and one of the things that I felt always
was really was really strongly and I as always kept the ethical and environ or
mental policy. I always felt a central plank of that was not just buying
the fish you want, but utilizing every part of it. Waste to me
is just awful. And every part of a fish I would use for different
things, the different parts of it, the cheeks, the jaws, the
belly, flap, the loin, tail and every part of it. So
on a principle, why buy five fish when you get by with two or
three? Absolutely, there's also this idea of the other uses for byproducts.
So I know that some of the Northern Irish fishermen, fishermen here in Scotland
and England elsewhere are really interested by what has been managed in Iceland to balorize
by product or what was thought of being a waste product. So yes,
using what you can for human consumption and sale, but where there's other ideas
to use the byproducts of fishing and if that as long as that money comes
back into the industry, I think that's a fantastic thing to consider. Yeah,
definitely. And also we should never forget the product we're talking about as
far as health benefit. You're talking on super food. It's so healthy.
Look at different nutritional values and what you can different nutritions affect or benefit our
health and you could see every one of them. And seafood. I think
people like espen McDonald at the Scotish Fishman's Federation and Marcus Coleman at Seafish are
really strong at representing the industry to say so. But we are producing this
fantastic food for people to eat, and sometimes I think that folk can forget
that fish are really interesting species and people can forget that this species becomes really
an important food for the world. Yeah, as I said, when you
you know, you look for one example, you look at all the central
minerals that we need to be healthy and just say for one of them,
zinc. Well, oysters put zinc off the Richter scale. There's a really
interesting project being run about getting about muscles in schools and shellfish in schools,
and of course people like the Shellfish Association of Great Britain. All of that
work to tell the great stories is really important, isn't it. And not
to forget, you've mentioned the word a few times today and everybody loves a
story. It's absolutely true, and sometimes you have to explain to people why
are you trying to tell that story. So, for example, the wind
there was an awful lot of top but a year or so ago about emissions
from vessels and what and whether seafood as the carbon conscious industry, and there
was an awful lot of people talking about net zero and decarbonization. And one
of the things that we like to do, if FITZ, is just to
have a big kind of closer look at some of these stories that come out
in the media. And we wondered, well, what does a decarbonization mean
for us as safefood producers. What does net zero mean? What does a
just transition mean? So we got people together to have a discussion about what
that might mean for us, and we asked McDuff ship Design to help us
understand what a net zero vessel might look like. And again people were again,
why on earth would you want to look at this? It's impossible or
it's difficult, And we didn't want to do it because we thought it would
be easy. We wanted to do it so that we had an idea of
what it actually meant. All these buzzwords of net zero or no emissions,
what would it mean? And we asked, as I say, mcderfs ship
Design to look at the most plausible pathways forward for the UK fleep. So
often the headlines where o let's sort of moved to electric vessels? Really could
we do that? But wouldn't that mean or you'd hear you heard people say,
oh, they're they're managing to use such and such fuel in Norway.
You know they're looking at at LNG or methanol in Norway. So we wanted
to have a closer look at what that meant to us, and it showed
from these first ever concept designs that Mcdufship Design helped us prepare was that these
vessels would be possible in the future. Some of the fuels could be possible
even now. However, all alternative fuels have a lower energy density and more
complicated storage and handling requirements, so that if we were to take these buzzwords
or the headlines about net zero vessels, you would need to have significant thought
going into what your infrastructure look like, the supply chains in terms of being
able to build these vessels, the safety requirements around these vessels, the training
needs for the people who work on shore and offshore. So behind a buzzword
like net zero or no emissions from fishing vessels, there's actually an awful lot
of thought needs to go into those things, and for us to help for
either individual skippers or businesses, or vessel builders and vessel designers, they need
support to understand how we get from where we are now to where either the
supermarkets or government want us to be in twenty forty five, for example.
So a lot of it has taken those seemingly quite easy questions that get mentioned
in the media are just transition and really picking it apart to say, well,
what will that mean for the fishing industry and the seafood industry, and
how do we get for me to be in a way that helps businesses stay
safe and competitive? Yeah, very true, well said as well, And
it was saying it in a way it was really important for us not just
to say oh, it will be different, because again we've talked a lot
today about we don't often get the benefit of the doubt. De Wey or
some people would say, well, they would say that. So by working
with vessel builders, besel designers, working with universities such as Extra University's Center
for Future Clean Mobility, if they're all saying yes, there's a lot of
thought needs to go into how we move in a truly just transition that doesn't
leave people behind, that doesn't leave businesses with stranded assets, that make sure
that we do this in the most safe way possible. It takes a lot
of thought. Whereas I found that if an individual fission business said it's too
hard, people would go well, they would say that, wouldn't they.
So you know, together we can say we are thinking about these things,
but we do need financial support and our roadmap to help us make sure that
we all stay in business and we all stay. See tell me your leverage
is it three million pound into innovation? Now I must be very clear.
I'd love to say it was all me. I only came into to about
five years ago. And obviously Fisher's Innovation Scotland has been around since about twenty
fourteen and we became a UK organization last year, so lots of people have
been involved in this. So it's either as I say, we're funded and
governed by our book, so our border incredibly generous with our membership fees.
But also we either match fund we ask for we apply for grant funding for
example with the Seafood Innovation Fund that's helped us with smartrawl, with Marine Fund
Scotland that's helped us with our net zero vessel designs and working with everybody from
the unclude Fishermen's Trust who we ran our workshops looking at a just transition,
looking at net zero vessels and we got some money from people like the Lloyd's
Register Foundation. So we're very keen to work with people and match fund and
to raise funds that goes directly into all the projects, doesn't come to this
doesn't come to good individuals, but helps us create these projects that we can
take forward together. It's hard work, had to say, there's fewer pots
of money and less money, and I feel very strongly that when there is
money available for sustainability at sea, then I feel it should come to coalitions
that really know what they're talking about, that can implement things directly, and
that can try all things at see to make a difference, rather than I
want thing to be practical, rather than reports that may or may not actually
see the light the day. So we want to make sure that the money
that is out there is bent properly and actually helps us improve things. And
what do you see about the support prosperous and sustainable UK seafood. It's got
an exciting future, I hope so, and I think it's I do as
I said already, I'm repeating myself. It's in good hands. The industry
is in good hands. But there's a lot of really good people in it,
and it's an industry with lots of amazing character. Absolutely there are that,
you know, I say to them, had it not been their generosity
when I was really new in this sector and didn't mind me asking the dark
questions. There were some people who just straight away went okay, then right,
let's tell you what the reality is of this. And we're really you
know, open, and I think that everybody comes into to seafood industry and
is genuinely interested in ask questions. Everybody is is so generous with their with
their time and then saying that I hope people continue to be so because we're
always looking for ideas for what those innovation needs are to help the UK seafood
industry. So if there are people out there, if your listeners, if
they have ideas about how we could improve the way that we catch seafood,
process seafood, how we manage fisheries, how we structure markets and supply chains,
any of those ideas that could help lead to whether it's a greater efficiency
or reducing environmental impact, please do get in touch. We want to hear
ideas that need testing or problems to unravel. Or I don't think we're good
enough about telling the good news stories and again I'm using those words, but
those the best practice. How do we help roll out best practice? How
do we make sure that people know about the great moves forward within the industry.
There's always so many negative stories and yet every day you hear about good
ideas and good people do good things, and we should do more to trumpet
that. Yeah. To finish up, I would just like to thank you
so much for today Kara and a party in thought. I think, yes,
there's maybe countries for their advance, but the role was somebody better or
further ahead out there. But we're not sitting back in the doll drums.
We're in a good place, I absolutely agree. And we're here to talk
with similar organizations. There's the innovation centers in Canada and the University's in Newfoundland.
We talk a lot with colleagues in the States. There's great projects happening
in West Africa. There's lots of things happening there, and we learn from
and can help wherever we can. Yeah, and that's really the ethis of
your whole organization, all sectors talking to each other. I think that's so
fantastic and it's really pleasing to hear. Oh, thank you, You've been
so supportive and thanks for giving us this opportunity to tell people a little about
what we do. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you liked
it, had subscribe, share it with a friend, or leave a five
star review. And if you want to speak with me, visit Seafood Matters
podcast dot com.