What is krack alakin Hardwar Knox listeners, I am Dan Valley coming at you
with a super swift intro because we have a long podcast to get through about
the New York Knicks. Just a quick note, we brought on Nick's Film
Schools. Andrew Claudio a frequent guest and friend of the podcast. Follow him
on Twitter at Andrew J. Claudio. Underscore spelled exactly as it sounds.
Follow Nick's Film School at nick Film School School spelled s k O O L
in that handle. He is also the host of Final Review Pod, which
we talk touch on very briefly to start at Final Review Review Pod. Please
please, pretty please remember to rate, review and subscribe to Hardwardox wherever you
get your podcast. If this is the first time you're listening to us because
you stumbled upon us for some reason, or you're a religious follower of everything
Andrew Claudio and Nick's Film School does consider throwing us that permanent subscription. Follow
us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox ratings and reviews. Help us a ton on
iTunes as well, even if you don't use iTunes. Finally, we did
record this podcast just before it was announced that Louis Randall was entering the league's
health and safety protocols. Nothing we say about his season, as hard as
we are at him, is overly insensitive, and we mentioned that we do
care about him as a person as well, so we did not record this
podcast and anticipate dumping on him after he entered league's health and safety protocols.
Neither Andrew nor I said anything that was necessarily unfair about him, even though
we do talk about his trade value around the league. Just wanted to clear
that up, though, because I want to be sensitive and sympathetic to all
these people that are in and out of lease health and safety protocols, because
as we all know at this point, COVID is no motherfucking joke. With
that out of the way, let's get to lots and lots and lots and
lots and lots of Nick's talk with Nick Nick's film schools. Andrew Claudio,
Andrew, welcome back to the Hardwood Knocks podcast. You dutifully responded to an
Andrew Claudio signal to talk about dedication. You are a good friend. How
are you doing, sir? I am great, Dan, I am excited
to be here. The next of one three in a row Movies are out
and they're not safe to go see. But we're going to figure out a
way to get through this month of December in this season all at all,
am I am spinning, spinning positive? Dan, How are you? I
am spectacular relative to the world shambles so compared to that before, we belly
flop because we're not gonna die. We're belly flopping, belly flopping. We're
belly flopping into the next Do you have any upcoming projects at Final Review Pod?
Not V as I mentioned at the top of the intro, but just
Final Review Pod, Any projects, recent podcasts, anything you want to plug
with that really quickly so our listeners can check it out. So I will
say, for those of your listeners that have HBO Max and we're fans of
the Matrix in nineteen ninety nine, the episode coming out this week is a
deep dive on the original Matrix from nineteen ninety nine. We're doing a full
final review of the movie Top five Keanu Reeves, top five of the Wachowskis
who have a very interesting filmography. We're excluding the new one that is also
on HBO Max. But if your listeners want to re explore the original trilogy.
I was stunned by how much I thought we all hated the second two
sequels and how much fun I had with them on a rewatch as an adult.
They're nowhere near the tire fire that they were alleged to be in OH
three. But they're not the masterpiece. Some people have tried through through revisionist
history saying they are. Having said all of that, I think night Stand
Unite is also a pretty big year for movies in like a turn of the
century type of thing, the Y two K panic of it all, the
like a lot of other things happened that year that led to a lot of
state Right, yes, obviously that's going to be my number one of the
category. We have actually have a really fun category on action individual action scene,
which the matrix has like three candidates. Whether you want to go with
the hallway scene or the lobby scene where they where Trinity runs up the side
of the wall, whether you want to go with the final fight between Neo
and Smith, or the one that I'm probably gonna end up going with,
which is the bullet time where he dodges the bullets on the roof, which
I still remember seeing it in a theater at real time and just not knowing.
I didn't know movies could do that, so I obviously didn't know a
person could do that. So I it's a deep time on the Matrix and
then we'll be reviewing Matrix resurrections over the weekend. That's Final Review available wherever
podcasts are available, follow them on Twitter at Final Review pods. Spelled exactly
as it sounds. I'd probably rather talk about movies that I have not seen,
by the way, I haven't seen a single second of any Matrix movie.
Then the Knicks at this point, but we brought you on under the
guise of talking about a Kemball Walker comeback and maybe a Knicks come back.
And I know they've won three in a row, but it doesn't feel like
it, that's for sure. After that abomination of a victory against the Detroit
Distance G League team, the Kemba. I sent you questions about Kemba,
but we have to change the discourse on him right now, all right ahead.
He's had three bad games, Is it over? Was this a flash
in the pan? What is just your theory behind what he was doing?
Because he had he had some really high highs after being I guess forced back
into the rotation because of the availability of the roster when he was out of
it. But the past three games, and really the past two have been
been pretty rough. Well, that's what I'll say. I'll push back a
little bit and specifically point to the last two because the like I'm big on,
triple doubles are not an indication of how good of a game you had.
He shot really poorly on Christmas Day, but the offense ran so much
more smoothly through him, which is what you saw during this Eastern Conference Player
of the Week run that he had in that he wasn't in. He wasn't
conceding or deferring to Julius more often because they were both trying to figure out
their roles in an offense together. And this time he was being much more
aggressive. He was driving more, was it finishing as much as you'd like,
But now it looked like you were getting the juggernaut of kimber Walker that
you expected as you were gonna be able to rely on when you signed him
in the offseason, and the last two games, the Timberwolves and then the
Pistons said we're just gonna trap timber Walker. He's not gonna be able to
drive, and we're gonna make Julius Randall or Evan Fournier or r J.
Barrett beat us. And guess who hasn't been able to beat them. It's
Julius Randall and Evan Fournier and RJ. Barrett. And thankfully this benched unit
of young studs has been able to kind of rescue them the last two days.
Quickly, he's been pretty good the last two games. They eventually just
kind of hung on against the Minnesota Timberwolves, and look the Timberwolves. The
Pistons game last night was a bit of a low point I think for what
the actual biggest problem with this team is. But as far as Kemba goes,
I think he came back firing, just firing away, knowing this might
be his last chance to consistently played right. So it was like but from
the Boston game to then the Pistons where when he showed up then he scores
forty four against the Wizards, It's like, Okay, Kemba's if he's gonna
be this, this isn't the Kemba that got benched. Then he shows up
on Christmas and when a shot wasn't falling was creating offense for other people.
And if you left Christmas a little optimistic that maybe this is what the lineup
is finally going to be going forward, your confidence in that has equally vanished
as quickly over the last two games. So I when we were originally going
to make this a Kemba Walker Comeback podcast, I was gonna tell you how
my skepticism was there. I was excited to see, like what the next
week or so looked like and see if Kemba could maintain some stability. But
I looked at the fact that he's a guy, an older guy that just
had twenty one days off that seemed to have shown up back to the lineup
with a fury, and once that wears off and a couple of forty minute
games from TIBs goes happens, I think there was gonna be a really steep
drop off. And I think you've seen that the last two games. The
two red flags were him ever sniffing anywhere near forty minutes, Yeah, it's
going back, and then just the defensive effort and even the aggression on the
glass. It was just like, this isn't even like, this isn't the
Kemba we saw in Boston basically ever except for the start, and that wasn't
even the rebound. His defense when he first went to Boston, and I
always maintained in Charlotte that he was a better defender than credited, and I
might have I've probably said that he was a defensive upgrade over Alfred Peyton coming
to this season, which two, I wasn't out for Peyton. Seeing that,
though, I think it was clear, Okay, this is a ride.
Maybe we'll get maybe the Knicks will get more than a few games out
of it, and we'll have to see if it's sustained. Like at any
level, I still the thing I wanted to throw you. What he did,
even when he was benched, is still really important to this team,
which lacked someone even away from the Wren, who could consistently hit off the
dribble jumpers. He again is their most or not again, he is their
most efficient off the dribble jump shooter this season. For the entire year,
he's one of four players shooting thirty seven percent or better on off the dribble
threes and taking at least four a game. The only other players doing that
are Zach Levine, Trey Young and Steph Curry or sorry, Garland Levine and
Steph Curry, that ship matters. Did you agree with the decision to not
just take him out of the starting lineup, but to foist him out of
the rotation in the first place. At the time, yeah, I understood
it at least. The thing that the take cycle hasn't really understand from,
and I'll just say this with somebody who's seen every minute of every Knixt game
this year, is that the starting lineup when Kemba was benched was like historically
bad. There's that status account that just likes to post the graphic of your
fate team's favorite player when something terrible goes wrong, and it's just an animation
of them smiling. And the one they posted about the Knick starting five is
like they have the worst plus minus of any five man lineup with this amount
of minutes in NBA history. So something was broken. You can't and listen,
this is three weeks ago, so maybe we'll get to it, but
you can't bench Julius Randall at the time. The guy just made an All
NBA team and an All Star team, and is had elevated his place on
the team where he's earned the right to like struggle for the first twenty games.
You're not gonna bench r J because he's in year three while his minutes
and some concern his minutes had been cutting into some concern had you know crept
In Evan forney a like you just signed him to three plus one, so
you're not gonna bench him in the first year of a contract like that.
And then the other option, like Mitchell Robinson did get ben So the other
option is is kemba Walker who if Tims didn't view him as a starter,
which is what he said, then fine. I think the more realistic reaction
is like, I don't want to start Derrick Rose. I don't want to
start a manual quickly, which is why he moved Burkes into the starting rotation.
Which listen, we'll talk about Julius in a second. I'm sure I
think the move was with the idea that we need to kick start this starting
five led by Julius Randall being the focal point, and this was his attempt
to do it. I also think people playing the result about how the Knicks
went like what two and seven, two and eight over that stretch that was
a very brutal part of their schedule. They've played a lot of good teams
in those ten games, and then Kemba comes back and they're playing all these
bottom feeders and taking teams where they can survive, you know, a bad
performance like we saw last night, and then just the backups come in and
you know the league is kind of playing shorthanded because of COVID and that benefit
well, like they've they've benefited. The Knicks are benefiting now the fact that
they had COVID two weeks ago, which is when you know that stretch of
Kemba being benched happened. And then at a certain point the only way Kemba
got back in is because the Knicks were eight guys down and like Derek Rose
is now gonna miss your months, So it turned into out of necessity he
came back. And I think that the Kemba we saw that one player of
the week wasn't the one that got bench. The Kemba we've seen the last
two games with the struggling starting five is and it's why like, yeah,
you could say the defensive effort is there. He's still getting like owned on
defensive closeouts, like on for three you can get whatever bucket you want on
him if you catch him like five feet from the basket, which teams have.
So it's really just his offense that had really taken a step up over
the last over the last those three games stretch, and you know, we'll
see what happens. You're now going forward that some of the regression when they
kicking, Yeah, I was. I was understanding of why they did it,
while not while also I think every Knicks fan said this while acknowledging that
Kema Walker isn't like the problem, He's just part of a larger problem.
I ended up somewhere around there where it was I didn't think there was actually
a solution or a realistic one that a change that they could have made that
really would have reinvigorated what ails the most, which feels like a bunch of
different things at this point where they're so deep yet they feel like they're at
a talent deficit at the same time, which is just a weird spot to
be. And the thing I took issue with is I thought removing Kemba cow
too too much to the player that Julius Randall became next season. It was
sort of to me like this admission that he needed to be in more control,
and I think picking Alec Burk's over I get why you wouldn't want to
start Derek Rozer manual quickly, but also making Alec Burks like the quote unquote
point guard was also another admission of this needs to be Julius Randall's show,
and aside from him not playing well enough to earn that, it's also at
some point if Julius Randall. What was interesting to me about the Kemba edition
and some of the other editions than this Nicks made over the offseason is I
wanted to see Julius Randall in a more streamline offensive role, and he's looked
like he struggled. He did do a little bit better playing off Kemba I
Felix since Kemba came back, but he struggled to not even just do what
he did last season, but to play off others, and like that's a
scalability problem for them. And I value too much even just the idea of
Kemba, especially if you're not gonna have Derek Grows or IQ on the chords
where I would have benched Fournier. That is not because I didn't watch any
Nick games, as many people were claiming that that's anyone who said that they
should bench Fourmia. Yes, there was probably an oversimplification there, but the
immediate was, oh, you haven't watched any Nick games this year. I
just thought that decision it couto too much to a player that Julius Randall right
now clearly is not. But how do you ben in that situation? Now
he's done, he's under contract for now three years like benching him? Are
you saying put him in the second unit or bench? First of all,
I wouldn't have removed Camba from the rotation. I know now you have three
small guards on the bench. I would play all three small guards at the
same time and just not care. I would just I would like I would
have found a way I would have promoted an actual point guard or more of
a floor general, more of a more of a non out Burks player to
the starting lineup. Is what I would have done the first place, even
if you would have. But if it was four and yeah, yes,
it's easier. You could move him to the second unit and then promote Burks.
And it's kind of like a similar dynamic. I and look, I
think at some point and four Day's had some high highs this year. But
he's the streakiest. He's a streakiest shooter I've ever watched. He's a he's
a you're you're used to follow baseball, right, like you remember playing named
Lucas Duda. He used to play for the Mets. So like Duda would
bat two ten all season and then in three separate weeks throughout the year would
just have like nine runs in each week. That's Fournier where it's like he'll
have four straight games maybe even like thirty five straight minutes of the worst basketball
player you've ever seen, then for two minutes straight, oh four or five
from three, and there's this effective vehicle percentage going up, which is why,
like you let him keep shooting. And I think a shot diet this
season has been different from what he's normally gotten, which is why he struggled
to really find like what shots he's supposed to take, what shots he wants
to take. Look where I think we're both hinting at the actual biggest problem
with the team. Whether they bench Canberra bench Fournier or not, the biggest
issue with this team is that they showed up this year with what they thought
was a guarantee in Julius Randall, and he's been anything but. And last
night against the Pistons was the breaking point because it wasn't just going two of
eleven with five points against the G League version of a five and twenty eight
team. It's the effort. It's the lack of hustle. It's the body
langue, which is the arguing with the refs that we've watched all season,
and it's that he wants to be treated like a superstar but he's not playing
like one. And it's seeped into every other element of the team to the
point where like, no shit, Kemba Walker wasn't playing well next to him,
No shit. RJ. Barrett's been struggling next to him. Fortyer has
been horror, has been struggled to find a role next to him. Anybody
you put into the starting five next to Julius Randall has played horribly. So
no wonder Alec Burks looks bad in the starting five for two weeks, goes
back to the bench and saves their as last night, it's from ruined Alex
Burks against the League Pistons. That is just which that sentence is a real
thing, you know, like, so I gotta plug my buddy in Knicks
film school John macray and his newsletter today, he had a chart of like
the Knicks main nine rotation pieces, every single player has a significantly lower on
off net rating then when they're with Julius Randall. Then when they're not with
Julius Randall. Every single player is better when they're not playing next to him
than when they are, which leads to the bigger issue that this team has,
and it's that the one hundred and forty million dollar man whose extension hasn't
even kicked in yet, has been anything but the player that they signed long
term. Yeah, and you know, I will say a lot of those
minutes when you're not playing with Julius Randall, they're coming against probably weaker lineups,
which helps. But he has been bad enough to where I think that's
stat is salient. And when you look at his breakdown from this year compared
to last year, they've done and this comes back to me saying I think
they've pandered too much to him. When you look at his like shot type,
breakdown, touch time, they're pretty similar to last year. And when
you added Fournier and Kemba still had rows. Alec Burks is in the equation
you want to groom. RJ. Barrett I would almost argue that's a problem.
And the efficiency on just a lot of those looks is plum. He's
not shooting. He's at forty two point three percent affect the field goal percentage
on jumpers. That's more than eight percentage points down from last year. But
you also watch him and it's not even just a matter of him not hitting
shots he was making last year. There have been a higher percentage of his
He has a lower usage rate, higher turnover rate, and it's not even
like he's trying to make the right decision. He's losing the ball in a
lot of these instances. And his defense has been atrocious this season. I
don't think he needed to be career best. Julius Randall, who was very
much not just playing to have this year's salary picked up. He was playing
for an extension that he got, so you expect like a little slip off,
and Tim's definitely overlied him in last year. He's been in atrocity on
the defensive end, and it's I'm just curious as to now that we're more
than a third of the way through the season. Whatever we are through the
season, I've lost track of time, game standings, all that. Shit.
What is the concern level here about this moving ahead? Because, as
you mentioned, this extension has not kicking yet. Yeah, yeah, it's
it's we're in Defcon five here, Dan, Like, I don't want to
say it's like in an untradeable contract at this point. But look, I
tweeted about this last night, what Julius Randall was last year during a time
where a lot of us, I mean, I'm sure everybody in the country
could relate to this, a lot of us needed something just fun to root
for. And the redemption story that Julius Randall was. He gave a lot
of Knicks fans while what was happening in Brooklyn was like a thing, like
they chose to go there. They chose the Nets over the Knicks. And
twenty nineteen, that summer was the lowest point I think for a lot of
us, realizing how far the Mighty have fallen. And then like Julius Randall
shows up after all of us have been stuck inside for nine months and turned
himself into an All NBA player and gave the team an identity and a leader
that fans could buy into. And I did it. I bought into it.
I like fell in love with the Randall story. His player tribute article
was like heartfell he recognized, like I knew I had to be better,
and a lot of us thought, Okay, this is our guy going forward,
which is why when the extension happened, we thought, oh we got
him at a bargain. Are you kidding me? He could have waited a
year and then gotten an extension off of free agency, he could attested the
market INSTEADY signs for less. This is a great deal he's making Gordon Hayward
of money. Absolutely, Julius Randall, you're our guy. And now if
he's gonna be this where he's so detrimental because you mentioned like most of the
plus the off the on off net ratings are against backups, that doesn't explain
why, like Alec Burks is like such a bad player with him on the
floor next to Julius. I guess you're just saying, when Juliet, when
Burks is off the floor, when Julius is off the floor, Burks,
it's because he's playing with back with the backup five. Then just put Albi
Topping into that, because that's the other element of this that people are frustrated
with in New York is that how much better they're not just without Julius but
with Obie. And it adds this element of like a guy that isn't a
ball stopper, that isn't like this this black hole of productive basketball. And
look, the trade Randall, bench Randall, sit Randall calls have started with
Knicks fans and they're only gonna get louder if this is the version of him
that is under contract for the next four years. And I'm not taking a
victory lap here because I was very much wrong about Julius Randall. He would
winked me last season when we recorded a podcast right before he signed his extension,
my co host and I my co host Adam asked me if I would
sign Julius Randall with the extension, and I said yes. But the whole
issue here is that not only was last year and outlier season, it was
one that the Knicks didn't even see coming because they drafted Obie Topping in the
first place. That really got me thinking. But I got caught up in
the fact that I'm very much I want to see players get paid, and
he had a legitimate whether he should have been second team All MBA. He
had a very legitimate all MBA case last year, and when you look at
what the extension was going to pay him, there was a chance, as
you mentioned, that it became somewhat of a bargain at least a net plus
contract, because it's not actually what his full max would have been had he
hit the open market this year. I don't they were they should not have
sign him to the extension. I think it's just clear they should have made
This is the cold Talus business perspective. In me, You either he either
needed to give you another discount off the top, or you make him play
out this season and roll your dice on the free agency market next year,
because the difference in what he would have been paid would have been substantial.
But I think you also need to look like, what team, knowing that
the cap space landscape was going to be so constrained this upcoming summer, what
team wanted Julius Reynolds. It's number one type option, and the thing that's
always I wondered about Randall and thought I thought again, I thought this was
the right mood so I'm not taking victory of that. Here is what happens
when he's not anywhere near the focal point, or when his role is attempted
to be adjusted at all, and the Knicks haven't even given him that opportunity.
And if you need to be basically the number one on a team and
can't be anything less and still be effective, there are big problems there.
And so my the take that I've been ruminating on, and at this point,
if I were the Knicks, if I could get off of Julius Randall's
contract without getting actual value in return, and I was just able to escape
the money he has played so bad, I don't know if I would green
light that. I am heavily considering it. Maybe I'm getting too caught up
in the moment, but that's what I've been thinking about for the past month
or so, is that if you gave me an out of Julius Randall's contract,
if the flipper said, here's Eric Bletzo and Sergeibaka and you're just getting
a spot. I'm not even kidding. I am considering that because this is
and you're itching to speak, and I want you to speak. So it's
just this is So if this is the new Julius Randoll, or even if
he's not even close to the version he was last year, you've kind of
trapped yourself because I think we all knew Julius Randol can't be the number one
on a title contender. I don't even see the version of a Julius Ryandoll
that makes sense as a number two, because I'm not actually sure that his
game can scale down to that level or his usage, I should say,
if that makes any sense. So a couple of things. Your your sentiment
about getting Julius out of here is something that's been brewing amongst all Knicks fans,
so you're not alone. And he seems like a good guy by the
way I think this is. This is not personal. That's the thing about
about this. We're not saying this because I don't know what's going on with
him, like if something's happening off the court, all that effort he put
into the last year, So I want to make that clear, Like I
recognize all the emotional turmoil everyone's dealing with, and he had a hell of
a year last year. But like I said, just from the cold callis
business perspective. Please take the speaking beaton again for me as I continue rambling,
you're good. The thing that's most disheartening for me is like we didn't
just buy into Julius Randall, the player I brought into Julius Randall like the
father. Kaiden is like an adopted son amongst Knicks fans, like his birthday
was a couple of weeks ago, and seeing Julius though the coolest. They
had a toy story, excuse me, not a toy story, a space
Jam themed birthday party. Dan I wish I had been invited, like Obie
Topping got Kaid in a Poppa shot for his birthday. So like across the
board, we were all in on the Randall's becoming the first family of Knicks
basketball. And they did that video of him announced I think it was Julia
when Kaid and gave him the Most super Player Award trophy, Like we all
were like, yeah, this is this is like a story we can all
get behind. We have all become like part of the Randall family, or
they've become part of the Knicks family. Like the sentimental gushy stuff that sports
doesn't let you see sometimes because it's just play better or play play, play
better, or you're gone didn't exist last year. The trade Randall stuff,
if this is gonna be him, has started February third, because of the
extension that he signed is the earliest he can be traded, and that's become
the new deadline for Nicks fans. It's like, as soon as that happens,
Canna Blake Griffin scenario, what the Clippers did to him happened where they
signed him, and then the first chance they got, they will like go
to Detroit have fun. Look, the other part of this, and you
mentioned him, and I hinted at it last when I was last talking with
Burke's and the other guys that have been successful, is that Obi Toppin has
looked incredible this season in limited minutes. And the part of the limited minutes
that frustrates everybody is because if Obi looked great in limited minutes but Julius was
hitting the long twos and the threes like he did last year, I don't
think anybody would be upset because it would just be like, we need Obie
to play more next to Randall. Now it's like there's no real there's no
real reasoning if this is the Julius Randall we're gonna see that Obi Toppin should
be playing eleven minutes a game. There's no reason. Like against the Timberwolves
the other night, Obie got eleven, Randall got thirty eights, and Randall
went five of twenty and they only beat the short handed, short handed Timberwolves
by I think eight points that night. Like that can't happen. And to
your other point about the role that Julists can play, I do think next
to a point guard that next to a point guard, like I'm listen,
I'm just throwing random names out there, but like Dame, like a Ben
Simmons, like like Kemba, like the way we saw it, for a
couple of games where someone else is running the offense, he can be successful.
I do think there is a role like that in Julius. The problems
he has to hit shots and the long tunes just aren't falling this year,
the threes aren't full this year, and look he's just he's if those aren't
gonna fall his shot, Diet's gonna look completely different that then, yeah,
they've handcuffed themselves to this guy that if he's not gonna be a productive jump
shooter anymore than what do you even have in him If he's just gonna like
be a Brian Grant all of a sudden, it's not something you want,
especially when it's Brian Grant with Kobe's shot selection. Yeah, and I don't
even know if he works as a in theory like the pick and pop stuff,
if he's gonna hit his jumpers like you said, that's fine. Yeah,
I don't even know if he works as a rim runner like that.
If you're gonna do that with Julius Randall, it's like play Obie topping a
bunch. Well, okay, that's the that's the argument. If you're gonna
just make him a runner, Obie's the guy, Like, get him out
here and let Obie do it. I will say, like some of Julia's
most successful moments this year is when the Nicks get him running downhill and it's
not just like catch the ball on the wing and do something which leads to
a jump shot, you know, like a long too, and it's at
him in motion going downhill towards the rim. Because he's been a fine finisher
this year. Like, I will say that the issue is not like whether
or not Julius can do it. It's that they have an elite version of
it as his backup right now, So what is most impressed you about Obie
Topping this year? His role is not big enough. I do wonder what
he would look like if you do and like make his role bigger? Is
can he? I mean part of when you just watch the Knicks play Obi
Toppins and there's really no way to measure there's aside from the speed at which
they play. Obi Toppin's energy is just infectious, the good kind of infectious
and not unlike anything else we've been dealing with lately the past couple of years.
But what else is impression most about him? And do you see what
he's able to do sustaining over a larger role. And the thing I'll add
on top of that is, even if it can't, you need to do
a better job of exploring the threshold of Obie Topping than what you are now.
He's this is year two. Like, find out how many minutes per
game he can play, because we know it's more than he's been getting this
season. But if you don't think he's a thirty to thirty three minute per
game player or whatever it is, find that out You haven't even given the
opportunity to beat that yet. And again, a lot of that goes back
to I'll answer your question, I promise you said the answer. The answer
is energy of what's impressed you about Obi. He as soon as the Knicks
get the ball on an offensive rebound or on a defensive rebound, it's they're
turning to have the ball. He's like already on the other side of the
court. And there's a clip that one of our film guys posted a couple
of weeks ago of Obi literally just running suicides from baseline to baseline on like
four straight possessions, and he made it to the rim both times, block
to shot, try to lay up, blocked the shot, dunked it,
and it's like, oh, was the first man down to the other side
of the court every time. The issue with Obie's minutes is solely to do
with the fact that Julius did what he did last year, and Tibbs has
clearly given him car blanch to try and do it again. We're not now
thirty six games in, thirty five games in, and I wonder if last
night was the moment you start to see it turned that the Knicks looked dead
against the Pistons for three and a half. For two and a half quarters,
Obie and the backups come in and the energy just is elevated, and
like, this is something that I wanted to see them do when we talked
before the season, Dan, I wanted to see Obie play the five or
at least Obie Randall lineups together because I thought like that, I want to
see what that looks like. I want to see when the Knicks goes small
and if that energy can still kick in. Like to Julius his credit,
he's still passing a ton because they they teams saw what the Hawks did last
year and have been doing the exact same thing for most of this year.
The problem is the jump shots are also falling like they did in the Hawks
series last year, so the regression has been real. Obie Toppin's energy,
Obie Toppin's athleticism. His per thirty six right now is nineteen and eight.
Now, I get a lot of that is inflated because he's playing like thirteen
minutes a game. I'll excuse me, He's up to sixteen minutes a game
at this point. Yeah, there you go, Tibbs. I'm not as
I'm not. Until recently, I haven't been as crazy about the OBI minutes
because I actually think in short spurts it provides them energy. And it's why
the bench has been such a weapon. That if the starting five could just
play, even for as long as they do, and then the bench builds
like a fifteen point lead, then there's your offense. There's the thing that
Tibbs is actually created. Is this bench unit that is the Knick's most valuable
weapon that teams can't beat, which is honestly how they beat teams last year,
and that's the starting lineup has regressed so far that every time the bench
comes in, it seems like they're digging them out of a hole. And
Obie's been a main been a main cog of that I've been. I'd also
like to see you with thirty minutes of OBI looks like. I think there's
a game that they had a couple of weeks ago against Toronto where the Knicks
had just started to get their COVID hit and I figured this was Obie's best
game, and then the next day went into health and safety protocols. That
was a rule for a little bit. You had a good game, had
a good literally, it was our j good game health and safety. It
would be a good game health and safety. Quentin Grimes seven three is health
and safety. Dude McBride is starting. Oh, Kevin Knox is a lot
health and safety. So I yes, that's that was a very frustrating thing,
which led than Kemba Walker showing up. So the game against Toronto,
before Obi went into health and safety protocols, he was like easily their best
player. I think he was their game high score or close to it.
And what Toronto decided, this is a credit to Nick Nurse, was we're
just gonna take the rim away from you and we're gonna play like six feet
off of you. We're gonna turn you into a jump shooter. If you
hit him, great, but if you don't, then like the Knicks are
gonna be screwed. And Obi went one of five from three in the fourth
quarter of that game, TIBs finally pulled the plug and sat Obie. Knicks
fans were upset, but when Obi sat, the Knicks went on a seven
old run to take the lead, and it was clear, Okay, we
need people that can make some jump shots down the stretch of this game,
which Obi cannot be. So I wonder if over a larger sample size of
him playing more minutes, teams start to game plan for that athleticism. He's
gonna get his one, two, three dunks a game regardless. It's when
he has to rely on his jump shooting that I am concerned about, because
he's not that stretch five like John Collins or like that type of prototype.
Yet I think with time he could work on it. And look, I'm
with you, I want to see it. But there's clearly a role he's
been very good at, and it's a very small sample size that he's been
able to come in and be a little flash of lightning for ten to fifteen
minutes a game, and I think the path actually expanding his minutes is I'm
not even I mean at this point, if if it needs to come at
the expense of Randall, but you mentioned it, play him with Randalls.
They haven't even played two hundred possessions together yet this season, and the Knicks,
by the way, are net positive in those minutes with a terrible defense,
as you might expect, but a great offense, and the defense has
just not been good enough to prioritize like, oh, we can't play Obi
and Random together because our defense will suffer too much. So I think that's
what also needs to get lost. This doesn't have to be like an Obi
or Randall situation. The Knicks are because of the contract. They're beholden to
Randall to some extent, Like you need to plumb the depths of what he
has left because a huge part of your future just hinges on it. This
is not an Evan Fourne situation where it's the deal lengths are similar at this
point, but not really. You have two more years of every four day
after this, his salaries a little bit less. So if you benched Fournier
like you to me, you can do that. He's new. You can
bench fourney not even play him, and yet it's to some cost. But
Randall is more of the problem. You still need to play him. Let's
just see what he looks like with Obie. And I think you kind of
already alluded to this. But some of the things that I would like to
see more from obis you mentioned the shooting, like you wanted to become that
actual stretch big or even just being able to have I don't want, like
better ball skills from a stand still which John Collins has done a really good
job of developing in the half court. What are you looking to see better
from Obi or those two things? The jump shooting is obvious? Are the
ball skills there is? It's something It's like, what are you really looking
to see more from his development? You hit it, and it's the the
ability to hit a jump shot more consistently, the ability to hit the corner
three more consistently, which is where they place him on a lot of plays,
which makes sense because if they're gonna they're gonna close out on the corner
three, then like a quick pass and then Obie's right at the rim for
one of these highlight dunks going forward. I mean, look, he's actually
been a better defender than I think a lot of people thought he was going
to be coming out of Dayton, and look to extent about him being able
to create His usage ration is up to twenty two percent, which I mean,
look from from a guy that's really just like kind of catching alleys for
most of his offense. I like that some of the plays that you see
to get called for him now are him getting the ball on the wing and
using his speed to get to the rim. Lady. It only happens like
once or twice a game, but you do see it. I mean,
look, the only thing I'm really gonna see from Obi is all these things
I'm gonna see from Obi. Only where we're gonna get to see it is
if he plays more. And look, the issue with playing him next to
Randall is that Tibbs. I don't know if this is a Tibbs issue,
because I still am very pro Tibbs in like I'm in that camp, but
TIBs before the season, the reason that I was calling it a pipe dream
that Tim's gonna do it is because he values like a legitimate rim protector,
like a Mitchell Robinson, like Maryland's Noel, like Taj Gibson. And there
are three guys on the depth chart ahead of Obie to play that that center
role, even though when Obie comes in, it's Randall that gets to play
the center. How how TIBs looks at it? So yeah, I I
it'd be tough for me to say there's anything other than being becoming a more
consistent jump shooter from from Obie. That he's been such a overall net positive
that I just want to see more from Obie let alone specific things I want
to see more of you measured. Mitchell Robinson played better of late ish,
but for most of this season he wasn't even doing cardio out there. For
much of the season, it felt like, what what is going on there?
Or even if I want to be jenders and say what was going on
there? So there's a couple of things to play. One is that the
Knicks gave him if it's a qualifying off from I'm unfamiliar with the specific terms,
but Mitchell Robinson is playing in the final year of a deal and he
wants an extension. So he moped around for a couple of weeks to start
the year, especially since Nerland's Noel got a contract. Taj Gibson came back
and then was immediately the team's backup five with Noel got hurt. And then,
look, we just talked about how little the break in case of emergency
Obie Topping tool was used, but it was used enough that Mitchell Robinson's minutes
were cut at the beginning of the year. And look, Mitchell Robinson hurt
his foot last year, so he could only work on his upper body,
and he clearly went to the gym and only worked on his upper body,
because he showed up this season looking like a bodybuilder, and it took away
all of his agility, all of his athleticism that we fell in love with
the first three seasons, and it made it tough to see a long term
solution with him. Over the last couple of weeks, he's clearly slimmed down
and the athleticism has come back a little bit, and it's why some of
these like Groneman rebounds that he's gotten have been encouraging to see, and he's
been a legitimate rim protector again over the last couple of games. I actually
am encouraged that he'll be able to as the weight goes away and he becomes
like lighter and more agile, that the Mitchell Robinson that we liked at points
last year, at points two years before will show up, and you know,
the one we've seen the last couple of weeks will be the Mitchell Robinson
we have more often than the one we had for the first couple of weeks.
It was really just the conditioning thing, because again, like you said,
it wasn't even just out there getting cardio. The guy I don't want
to see overweight. I just think his body changed and he's had to now,
you know, through a lot of work, which is apparently reportedly he's
been trying to do that and be you know, we're specifically on cardio more
than anything else. So yeah, I think Mitch has recognized the problem and
has started to fix it over the past couple of games. Is there any
concern to the element of even the best version of Mitchell Robinson is so finite
in terms of his utility on offense, How do you figure on what to
sort of pay him when he's going to enter as a free agent, because
this is if you want him to put like even one dribble on the floors,
He's like, there's gonna be a problem for Mitchell Robinson. How much
How many dribbles does I mean? I generally don't know the question how many
dribbles does Jared Allen take? Okay, so I don't I don't have the
dribble numbers for Jared Allen, right, But like in general, Jared Allen
had will take more dribbles on belines to the basket. But he also has
like a and this is not something I want Mitchell Robinson to try and develop.
Please, Like he has a hook shot, like he has other stuff,
other ways to finish where Mitchell Robinson is like I'm going to subsist on
look the putbacks, like the highlight, like dungs and lobs, and he
is He's a very he can be a very devastating roller. I just don't
know. I don't know how much you pay that guy when he's not a
transcendent defender right now, Like this is the comparisons that people were giving him
to Rudy Gobert way back when I'm pretty sure that sip is ship is sailed.
And I do think you want in this day and age. I don't
think he needs to shoot threes. I don't think he needs to shoot off
the dribble jumpers. But you want a little bit more of a dynamic offensive
arsenal out of your five spot. And I'm just curious. I don't think
that means he can't be a really good player, because I do think it
engaged and I guess trimmed down. Mitchell Robinson, as you called it,
is a very good player. But you do have to start looking at the
future of all right, well he's gonna hit the open north, Like what
are you paying this dude. So there's a lot of variables at play.
If Mitch and if slimmed down Mitchell Robinson is going to be what we get
for the next couple of months, then I think the Knicks look to trade
Newlands Nowell and look to extend Mitch to like four for fifty two, which
is like right around the Robert Williams contract. I actually I'll disagree that his
defense, his perimeter defense is just not existent anymore. Stretch stretch fives kill
him now because he just the Knicks had to make an adjustment. We've been
doing this film series called Knicks Film Threads on our YouTube channel where we've been
highlighting what the Knicks have done to try and hide Mitch now on stretch fives
where the Knicks will go to like Kemba or r J on the five on
instead of on the switch and having Mitch have to come back out to cover
on the perimeter. I do think his rim protection has still been there,
like the blocks are still incoming. He just at times will not know because
because he had this fouling issue to start his career, he'll at times not
know when to go hunting for blocks or whether to avoid at certain times,
so he'll hesitate whether or not because he knows he only gets six fouls.
That version of Mitch that's lighter, I don't think is anything more than like
a four for fifty two and that look, I don't know what that is
even to a market value at this point. I know that I think he's
a He's better than Newrland's Noel, at least because Newryland's no Well consistently being
an injury injury issue. Is on this team for three years and twenty nine
million dollars or thirty one one million dollars over the next couple of years.
There's some bonuses and incentives, and it's really a two plus one. But
I think you'll see what Mitch's value and what his next contract will be based
on a if neroone's nowhile comes back and is anything productive over the next couple
of months and be whatever version of Mitch Robinson they get, And look,
if he's gonna be the version we've saw again the last two weeks when it
seemed like his conditioning is finally caught up with the bulk up mister Robinson that
we saw, then I think that guy is worth extending and a guy that
you're okay, Like they've sat Evan Fournier for multiple fourth quarters in certain situations.
You just sit Mitch in certain situations down the stretch when you don't need
a rim protector, you need extra extra shooting on the floor. And I
never think he's gonna be like an offensive player where you'll ever call a play
for You also never call the play for Tyson Chandler. Not saying that the
same player, but the same idea that he's there to play defense, get
rebounds, and you know, put back everything that's available for him. The
Robert Williams comp is interesting because I think he's an example of a player that
might be similar to Mitch who has made the most of his tools, where
it's like you can trust him to pass on the short role and you're not
gonna ever think that Mitchell Robinson is gonna do that. He's also look,
I'm not arguing Mitchell Robinson's in protection, but like when you talk about transcendent
defense, I don't think Robert Williams is a transcendent defender. Like he's a
much better like pull him out and if you need him to guard one on
one smaller players or even like can like be more disciplined contesting stretch fives.
I'm gonna trust him way more than Mitchell Robinson. But the comp is interesting
in the sense that these are two bigs that have really, for whatever reason,
whether it's foul trouble, their teams don't trust them. Like Mitchell Robinson
has averaged more than twenty five minutes per game like one, so they've never
played these huge, like thirty plus minute per game roles. So maybe that's
a number to wind up with. I would say as a right now,
I'd feel wildly uncomfortable as a mixed team giving Mitchell Robinson a four and fifty
two deal based off what we've seen season, especially with Neroland's still under contract.
If you have no money long term invested in a center, like if
Norland Zoell is gone, and like your centers are Jericho, Simson, Mitch,
then like fine, like I'm actually okay with investing in that because then
in the position overall, you you have market value what teams usually put into
their center. Yeah, but it's like nothing non Rudy Gobert Yo kids do.
Right, But does that even have to be part of the calculates when
Nolan's well is essentially in a contract for one more year after this one,
because it's a two plus one that he signed. From a playing time perspective,
I think it is like the look, we're all trying to recalibrate what
happened last year, especially with Julius, but like nolan'sall was really good when
Mitchell Robinson went out for the year, so I understood like the knick spot
went all in on continuity this year, which is why the Alec Bork's signing
looks really good. The Derrick Rows signing, I still think that he was
their best player when he got hurt. I think because of Covid, because
they were playing shorthanded, because of what happened with Kemba, because they've needed
him. Rose played entirely too many minutes and it led to him needing to
go get surgery on his ankle. In a different role where he can be
the backup point guard that plays twenty five minutes a game, I think that's
okay and that contract will reflect that going forward as well. I think,
look, with Norland's Noel being here essentially, like you said, only one
more year. If he comes back and looks like the the non fans in
stands person Maryland's Noel, then like a that's a center that you want to
keep on the floor, which is what the Knicks. More we are recalculating
as we go forward. It's all right, you've clearly taken a step back.
You've clearly taken a step forward. And that's why this offseason and the
trade deadline are going to be so interesting coming up. There's Noel is easily
one of the most underrated players in the league last year. I guess I'm
looking at more of the perspective of if it's for one year, you're paying
both if you think Mitchell Robinson is really worth that, do you want either
of those? Even if you split the minutes down the middle, these are
only two centers if we're healthy, twenty four minutes a game for each,
Like that's just we've never seen either of them, I think, aside from
Mitch, played more than that over the course of an entire season at this
point, and so I don't think if you want to if you want to
get to Obie Topping at the five, Julius Randall to five, like,
yeah, there are and they clearly don't want to do that. But I
get the logistical concerns, I wouldn't be worried about it. If you want
to pay Mitch no one's the will doesn't impact that for me at all,
just because it's a single year of the overlap fine. I think. Then
the other aspect of signing Mitch to an extension is like or at least just
signing him long term, is that the peak version of Mitchell Robinson is also
tradable, you know, and a contract like that I think is also tradable.
He becomes more of an asset when he has these these three weeks stretches.
Is that a team will look and say, listen, it's a guy
that you know, I can't he be our Jared Allen? Why can't he
be are a rim running big? They also provides elite room protection at the
other end, you know, if he can become Jared Allen on offense,
who I think is look more than rim run And so it's like, I'm
more like, can Mitchell Robinson become like the better version of Newland's Noel on
offense? At this Like that's where I'm at with Mitchell Robinson's offense. Nolan's
all on offense scores. It's like two points a game. Again, I'm
looking from us, yes, but from like a skill set, like the
depth of skill set, like can he be Rudy Gobert on offense or like
that's that's essentially what you need at this point, where like my point is
a Jared Allen or even a Robert Williams is far more versatile on offense than
Mitchell Robinson is right now. And I don't think that that is detrimental.
I do think it needs to reflect how they go about deciding whether or what
to pay him this office. He's, like you said, the rest of
this year plays a big part of that too, because I was just convinced
he was gonna be awesome. I was just I was just convinced he was
gonna be awesome this year, and that has not been the case for much
of this season. Yeah, look, I'm I'm I'm not convinced either way.
I'm not one hundred percent. I think we've traded mister Robinson on the
post game shows a lot this year, and then he'll come back and have
fourteen and eighteen and it's like, oh, we have to there's your extension
argument for Mitchell Robinson. Look, the value of a center, any intelligent
NBA person obviously yourself knows, unless it's Gobert, Embiad or Jokich, it's
you ever like like should you ever pay a center? You know? Is
like the argument, can't you find somebody at the fifteenth Big or wherever the
Knicks are gonna get slotted this year? So I'm with you. I just
think, like the value that mister Robinson does provide when he's right, I
think at thirteen million dollars a year is actually a bargain and for what especially
and this is I mean a larger tips conversation to the type of team that
Tims likes to play, like the best version of Mitchell Robinson is essential.
We have not talked about who is arguably the single most important Nick long term
yet, And that's okay, Barrett. I think you could probably say Julius
Randall for all the wrong reasons right now. But RJ. Barrett was supposed
to be like that was the blue chip prospect, the swing player who,
if he hit, could really change the trajectory of this franchise even more so
than Julius Randall. What is the concern levels the phrase we're using a lot
on this podcast, what's the concern level of him this season? And I
think I'm not worried, But defensively, I think he's been like mostly fine
this year. It's the offense, and I'm just curious as to I even
think, you know, he's shooting piss poor on corner threees this season and
he's always done really well on those. That'll be fine. I'm just wondering,
And I think I asked you about this on the preseason pod. If
there are like too many offensive cooks in the kitchen outs where he doesn't have
a lot of what's happened might be on him, But does he have the
room to even like test or expand what he can do on offense at this
point, And because when you do dig into like his usage data, it
does seem whether it's because he's too hesitant or this is sort of an edict
from how the coaching staff wants him to play, that he doesn't have the
ball as much, and even when he actually has the ball, he doesn't
he's not creating as much with it, And so are they trying to turn
him into just like this more complimentary, complimentary offensive player than someone who might
be not a focal point but like a really major part of your your offensive
game plan. I'm just what have you made of his offensive season so far?
So you know, we've been getting a couple of people, a call
of nickspands arguing on behalf of our j that he's being used poorly. And
I think look to our larger conversation about Julius, I think anybody playing next
Julius Randall right now is going to struggle. That being said, part of
the struggles of this starting five are interest that Julius isn't hitting shots. RJ's
jump shot not even was broken, was non existent for like the entire month
of November. Now there's reports that he was sick, like dealing with a
stomach bug for a couple of weeks, like had to leave a nationally televised
game against Brooklyn because like his stomach issues were that bad. Then missed the
next game against Chicago. Then he he had a he came back against Denver
looked bad, and then and the postgame Tibbs mentioned like something about how RJ
just seems to get back in the gym, because that's what he did last
year to fix his shot. But he's been sick and John and I have
disagreed about whether that was calling out RJ for not being in the gym or
whether him just explaining, yeah, he's been sick. When he's not sick
anymore, he'll get back in the gym. Came out the next game,
it had like thirty five against the Spurs and looked great, and then as
always, entered into health and safety protocalls. RJ's literally his immune system has
failed him. It sounds like this year, which is why it's like,
I'm not even saying like like I blame him for that. It's just like
it's tough to really gauge or evaluate anything from what he's done this year.
Other than the first first two weeks, it looked like he might have taken
a leap. Then he went into a shooting slump that nobody could explain,
and it's stended out to like four, five, six weeks. I'm not
I'm not out on RJ. Barrett. I think this has just been a
weird year for everybody in the starting five. I think the lack of shooting
has been contagious in the starting five as well, because he'll also have these
forty eight streaks of like I'm one for Steven then all of a sudden,
I'm three for three. I would look at his finishing at the rim numbers
as far as people that say whether or not r J isn't being used well
enough, because anytime he gets to the ball, he gets to the rim
successfully and it's just like the worst finished. Sure, I know he's been
better this year, but he hasn't been good this year. There are so
many poor attempts to make a layup in traffic from RJ Barrett where he doesn't
get into the body that he doesn't actually like try to finish. He's just
hoping to get bailed out by a call, and that I think it's been
honestly more concerning than it's jump shooting, which I think with time will come.
So I don't know if like, I don't know if he's like was
given the reins to the If he was given the reins to the offense,
we saw what it might look like, and that version of r J hasn't
been here since the first like five or six games of the season. I
don't yeah, And he's always kind of since the end of the league like
he can be aggressive and it's good, but then it sort of Peters out
where it's not consistent, And to your point, he is shooting a career
high percentage at the rim that's only fifty seven percent. It's not good.
People want to know it's not good. He is, And I will say
about his shooting, I think the struggles have always been overplayed because I think
the corner three point shooting is an outlier. He's hitting thirty six percent of
as above the brake threes this year and in a year we're shooting is down
in general, and where he kind of had a wonder you know what happened
last year? Was it like the limited fans there, like, was there
some sort of that involved. That doesn't worry me either. I'm just I
don't even know if he's being used improperly. So much as the Knicks is
pecking order offensive options now, I feel like they might have went like leaned
into one or two signings too many focused on the offense over the offseas,
especially if they were going to rely on Julius Randall. Still to this extent,
it leaves r J in sort of this like really gray area in his
terms of his mode of operation. I ultimately just think there's probably some medium
between what he was last year what he's done this season, and then there's
still I still think there's a better on ball player there, though, is
what I'm getting at. I just don't know whether the Knicks right now have
the bandwidth or the desire to explore it. I think the counterpoint is that
we've seen our J show flashes that when he has it going, like they'll
go to him, they'll run the offense through him. There's been like four
games this year where but that's the thing, like those are the really the
only four games where he showed up and been that. There's been very few
games where r J has it going and they're not giving it to him.
Like when he has it working, okay, looks like we're calling plays for
RJ this entire quarter, and like Tims will then play him more minutes than
play him with the second unit so he can get minutes with them, And
like this is where I think overall, the performance of r J is a
lot on r J. I don't blame him for getting sick. I don't
like want to say like it's his own fault, because like be like things
happen. I just I think largely like you're gonna give more of a responsibility
to a guy that's shooting poorly, that just that other than Julius Randall.
That doesn't make sense to me, you know, yeah, I mean they
could do a better job of untethering his minute to Julius Randall might help him,
because you mentioned r J plus bench shootings or r J plus whatever he
has. I should have refreshed this before, but he's played fewer than two
hundred possessions without Julius random this season. And if we're gonna say that Julius
Randalls making everyone worse right now, I think you can display some of the
blame onto again. I don't even know if the Knicks are using him improperly.
I don't think they are actually relative to the personnel that they have.
I need to see r J. Barrett to me, he needs have more
runway to breathe on offensive to I'm not even talking about spacing just because the
Knicks again are a good three point shooting team overall. I just I want,
I need them to plumb the depths of r J. Barrett Moore.
I don't want to say that too many times, but like I need to
see it. We're in years three and I think there's more to offer there,
and I don't think they've given him that level of opportunity this season.
I think when he's had it going, they have I guess, and I
think, but you can't, like you can't just ride the hot like this
is someone who's still getting young, Like do you see what you're saying?
I just think they like, you know, very early on in the game,
like RJ will have over four first quarters and then it's like, okay,
like we know how this game is gonna go based off the track record
over the last three years. We know if we're getting a good r J
game or a bad RJ game, And like, oh, four from three
might also be coincided with oh of like one of four from two and all
four of the shots are at the rim. So like, look, I
opened this by about r J by saying, like, I don't blame anybody
also for struggling next to Julius Randall, there is a clear central, constant
problem with this team where I'd love to see r J get more minutes with
the second unit. I think if he had taken a leap, there would
be nothing the Knicks could do about holding him back. I think that leap
has been minimized because again there's there's a game early in the season against the
Pelicans where the team was struggling, Pelicans didn't have ingram or Zion. The
game was closed down the stretch and RJ closed out the game, like took
all their shots down the stretch. I think, get like thirty six thirty
seven points. And like since that time, that version of r J hasn't
existed and its other than a couple of flashes. And I don't I don't
think it's really I don't think it's an overall schematic issue. I think he's
shot poorly and they'll I mean, look, it's it may just the schematic
issue might be a Julius Randall thing. But I also think RJ hasn't necessarily
earned the extra possessions where they're running the offense through him. You know,
I agree with that. I don't know that he's earned the larger role.
I also think that we're at a point where I wish the Knicks would give
him one to just see, like where we're at. Oh, look when
they trade him in a couple of weeks and he goes to a team where
he could be the focal point of the offense. Then maybe we'll get to
see what happened. On a more positive note, or the plural notes.
Quentin Grimes Duce McBride have like these reinvigorating performances before they both ender Lee health
and safety protocols. Do either one of that? Let's I don't know if
we need to fast forward. Let's just imagine a world in which there's not
a revolving door of players available. Uh in the NBA? Do either of
them? Do you see Tibbs letting them factor into a full or strength rotation.
I mean, look, the better answer, the easy answers know the
answer I want to give us. I hope. So I think Grimes is
here to stay. I will say that I think shot of adrenaline on defense,
please, Like that's the that's the thing, Like Tims is gonna play
guys that defend, which is the irony of the biggest issue with the Knicks
right now. I think Grimes is are in the spot if he's gonna shoot
like he has from three and then be the on ball defender that he is.
I mean, look, I get it. The G League Pistons last
night seeing what Deuce McBride was also, I think is why you're excited for
him to eventually find a role with this team. But this is why,
like I'm okay with when Kemba got benched, if they were to go to
a lineup that included starting lineup, but like inserting Deuce McBride into the rotation,
Like there are guys I want to see before Kemba Walker that especially hun
defense at the point guard position, and Duce McBride is one of them.
And I mean that the things we've talked about that I like about the Knicks,
the Obi Toppins, the Manuel Quickly is the Deuce mcbrides, the Quentin
Grimes. That's the actual thing Knicks fans are leading on right now that has
them surviving these these regression periods from Julius, which is ironic because they have
their one game behind their pace from last year. I get a different contexts,
but like they were eighteen and seventeen this point last year, the seventeen
eighteen now, the fact that they haven't had anything more other than our j
like in the Leon Rose Tom Thibodeau era, they've had I think they've had
five draft picks, six draft picks. No, no, no, I
was right. You can cut this if you want me try to figure out
howny draft picks. They have six draft picks and all six seem to be
like they hit on all of them. And one of them was the fifty
eighth pick in the draft and Jericho Sims and he looks like he could be
like a solid backup center in the league. I think that's the thing that
you're excited about. That if the Nicks did want to become sellers at the
deadline and trade Alec Burke's Boom, Quentin Grimes steps up into his rotation spot,
if they did want to offload Kemba to a contender, Boom, Deuce
McBride is in the rotation, and they have younger players to come in if
this season does go sideways, and I think they're gonna be productive young players
as well. He moving in. You know, you bring up whether they'll
become sellers, and I have a question about that. But without talking about
a player, he wanted them to acquire what direction they should be at it.
Who's the player that they need to be shopping or that they need to
trade. It advanced that February tenth deadline. Who is just don't make this
a surprise. I sent you the question at advance. Well, yeah,
I just that's the thing is, like there's no one player that ill that
where we're at the foot. Oh yeah. At this point, the problem
with the question is, like the obvious answer, I don't think anybody wants
them. So I don't think anybody's given you anything for Julius Randall or Evan
forty eight. Right now, Mitch probably gets you something, kemba, kemba.
If you can trade him two games ago probably gets you something. You
know, give him two weeks off again, ings off, let him play
two games. That's the solution. Fine, Like the pieces you're willing to
part with, like are the things that people probably don't want right now.
Burke's might actually be the guy because he's shown me he can be as an
off the bench sixth man, instant offense type of guy, which any contender
would like. But like, I think the Knicks might also kind of like
him too, which is the difficult parting ways with Alec Burks? Why would
you do that? Just yet? You know how? Think you look at
his shooting numbers, like combined in fourth quarters last year and this year,
he's been so big for them, and also his struggles in the starting lineup
like kind of reinforce his value because it's like, oh, if you make
him come off the bench or put him in a little bit of a smaller
role, like this is perfect for him, which I think if you're a
contender, that entices you even more. I'm not trading out works is I'm
the Knicks. I think the actual answer is Julius Randall. I think it's
an answer that a lot of people don't want to give, aren't ready to
give right now. That's fine. The more realistic and I think level headed
answer less reactionary is Evan Fournier to where I don't know that teams are gonna
want him, but his contract numbers manageable enough, his deal short term enough
that if you're trying to buy And I went on a Pacers podcast and the
trade framework we came up with was Evan Fournier, Obie Toppin too heavily protected
first round picks for a Miles Turner. Like you can make a deal like
that with an Evan Fournier's deal. That's my point. You can chake it
all you want. If anyone's watching us on camera, whether I even flip
this segment for YouTube is remain to be seen. But I think the answer
is Fournier just because it could be Nerlands. No. Well, but those
are the deals where it's like you don't have to you could attach stuff too
to make them more digestible and to get you either an upgrade or a player
who you think better fits what you're trying to do or your overall trajectory.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to trade Evan Fournier. I'm not putting
over the toppit in the deal. And I say I like, I have
any say in this, but the attachment that Knicks fans have built to Obi
toppin if the thing that you get back for him is Miles Turner, Like
we just talked about the value of a center in the NBA a couple of
minutes ago. Like, I don't think Knicks fans are ready to part with.
The one guy that has made Julius Randall's struggles tolerable is that when Julius
leaves to get to watch him, you know, I don't think any Knicks
fan wants a part of And that's why I said, like, the easy
answer is Fournier or Randall, But I don't think a team is gonna want
them unless you add something else, and Knicks fans don't want to part with
something else. Myself included I do, I would be curious, and this
is the nuclear I think the Knicks don't even want to go this route,
but I mentioned it at the earlier before. I do think there's a team
that could probably call it together like short term salaries or salary filler, and
is willing to roll the dice on Julius Randall. I just don't know.
If you're the Knicks, can you save face by making move up? Because
when the when the Clippers turned around and traded Blake Griffin, they got stuff,
lots of stuff for Blake Griffin. You're at a point with Julius Trannel
if you're doing you mentioned that they might have to sweeten it. I'm just
talking about can you get like out of that contract entirely. I doubt they're
ready to go that route just yet, which is also why I think that
he probably can't be the answer here, even though I think he's my answer.
I also just think I'm not saying I'm ahead of the curve. Heer.
You've mentioned Knicks fans want to trade him. I do think there's like
this feeling that we can't, that people can't say this just yet, and
that's maybe why he's not more of a common answer. It's you can tell
about how Betty's been, Oh, we can't trade him when his values this
low that you supposed this, his value is going to actually get better,
and I don't know that we can do that, is my point. So
I think we're in agreement on the two guys that are the most desired to
be traded from this fan from this team, by this fan base. It's
the when you go to Obi Toppin, you go to quickly and start throwing
in these young pieces that the fan base has fallen in love with, and
look, I reject prospect hugging, which is why, like r J.
Barrett's not untouchable. I just don't want to trade him for a guy that's
not gonna play like a major role on this team, you know, like
like we're not getting a we're not getting like a difference maker. I'd rather
see what r J. Barrett becomes. The exact same thing applies to Obi
Toppin, where I don't want to see him become of Mary Sodomyer in Indiana.
So if you can offload Julius Randall after February there, which is why,
look, you will find more allies that I think you realize in Nicks
in Nick's land right now that the trade Julius train has gotten more passengers.
And I think last night really was the moment that everybody you know jumped on
it and said, like, listen, this is this is a problem the
Knicks. Arguably their most productive player on the team this year has been his
backup and it's why I think Knicks fans would rather see what would be topping
becomes with with four minutes and not in a Miles Turner trade. More than
anything else. I'm glad I hosted to my Julius Randall feelings to the point
that they became stale and cliche. That is always the goal. So what
is the I think it could be easier to say a superstar, but like,
what is the player archetype, whether it's a position or skill set that
you would like to see them acquire or that they need to acquire at the
deadline, or even just moving forward, like we could just move past this
season as well at this point, So Miles Turner is the guy. It's
it's the trade package. I think that would eventually be become too rich for
my blood. Look, I don't think the Sixers would trade Ben Simmons in
division. I don't think the Knicks have what the Sixers want to make a
Bend Simmons trade. They do have a fuck Can I say that word on
this pod? I apologize if I can't. Oh, they do have a
ton of pot of picks that they can afford to trade over the next couple
of years, which is where I think you could if if they're highly protected,
I think you could trade use those assets to get a guy like Turner,
or if they take away the protections, you could get Ben Simmons.
Cat has intrigued me. O. I think the Timberls have actually start to
build something that they're not gonna want to trade Cat as well, and that
like that's something I would trade. Will be topping in r J Barrett flow
like if you get telling me like but like that's the point. It's like,
if I'm gonna trade and I'm gonna trade my prospects for a center,
I'm not trading for Miles Turner. Like that's that's the issue that I have
with this. You know, I wouldn't give up prospects for Turner, but
if you're getting all four days deal in the process, will be topping.
Wouldn't be a deal breaker there for me. But then that goes back to
a much larger argument from the Porzingis trade that, like in theory trading,
Porzingis was like not an issue guy coming off an ACL injury that has yet
to prove he can play a full season. Like in theory, I get
it. It's when the only thing you're getting back is cap space and Dennis
Smith Junior. Because what you used in the Porzingis trade was Tim Hardaway Junior
was a bad contract. We're go offloading him. Courtnately, it was a
bad contract. We're offloading him. Probably signed Trey Burke, Like I don't
want to make up for the mistakes of the Evan forty eight trade by then
having to give up something else. They're just ride it out and have forty
eight sit fourth quarters and we'll just enjoy when he has these stay streaky moments
like there are other We talked about the value of a center. There were
ways to find value at the center position without overpaying for Miles Turner. Well,
I think it's I agree with you in some I think it's different when
you're getting back Miles Turner as opposed to like the temporary placeholder poopo platter you
got back from the Dallas Mavericks. Dennis Smith Junior was like very much,
not like you could sell it as a look when he was drafted. He's
still kind of young. I think Turners weren't. And he's also not making
that much for what he does. I think he's he's paid a market value.
If you're worried about paying him tween twenty three, I get it,
so if that's not the player giving it up for I just think it's different
if you're actually getting someone back of Turner's caliber or similar Should you be having
if you have to greet, if you'd rather give up, if that's so
you don't have to give up Burkes, or so you don't have to get
like. I don't think you're getting Miles Turner or even a player of similar
caliber without giving up one of your young guys. There's picks and salary fillers
only gonna get you so far to begin with. But I do I think
I'm out all together on which is becomes sellers as a result. Then well
you do, and you do have Mitchell Robinson, who I don't think I
think is a significant downgrade for Miles Turner, but you can at least well
if he comes cheaper. YadA, YadA, YadA to your would you go?
So the Ben Simmons stuff I thought was interesting, they were only tangentially
linked. This is the final or second to final question here for you.
Would you do? It's a three team scenario where the Knicks are probably sending
a team a bunch of stuff that is in turn sending Philly someone they actually
want, and Simmons goes to the Knicks. Is that something like do you
like the idea of Ben Simmons in New York? I despise the idea of
Simmons next to Julius Randall. But Simmons is also like kind of the exact
sort of swing. It feels like this roster would would need to take.
So there's there's vacuums here to look at this from right. I don't like
him next to Julius Randall. You're right, I don't like him in New
York. I love him with Tom Thibodeau. I love him in that type
of defensive intensity that Tim's will love and play Ben Simmons forty nine minutes a
night. He'll have him running a lap around the court as soon as the
buzzer hits, like he would love to have Ben Simmons running captaining his defense.
The overall negatives of how Philly went, Like, man, you think
the Philly fans are hard, Ben, have one of these zero field goal
attempt fourth quarters in a playoff game at the Garden and see if you're able
to travel outside of the metropolitan area anytime soon. I don't think the fit
for New York is good, while the basketball fit for Tibbs I actually think
would work more than it does. But like you have to consider the non
basketball things. Unfortunately with Ben Simmons, like what's happened to him this year,
and like, God bless him. I hope whatever like is going on
upstairs is actually being fixed this year. Clearly Philly broke him, and I'm
I'm honest with the city that the Knicks playing and how they've broken probably weaker
players in the past, And I don't know if that is a good fit
this fan base with that player. Yeah, I think the the other thing
is is the mental health stuff. People just assuming that it's a it's a
ruse. I would never assume that. And if it is, either,
yeah, I just I don't. I won't even consider that that's what's happening.
I also can't imagine what if someone went to TIBs talking about, like
I need to take time off for my men health, Like that's just not
the coach that I see, and I'm not even making light of it.
I think you're right. It just feels like a bad emotional and tactical fit.
To be honest, I have two names for you go ahead that I
would like to see him go after one. I don't know how much stuff
I would give up, and he's played so well lately. I also don't
know what. I don't know if the team would be interesting training him.
Josh Hart is the type of player that this team could need. And if
look they need like another maybe Quentin Grimes is it, But like even if
it's Barrett and Quentin Grimes, like they just need like another really good active
perimeter defender. The second name. It's a bigger swing, slightly more realistic
though, and his stock is like kind of teetering on down right now.
I'm not sure how much you've watched him. Derek White is, Yeah,
can really give you point of attack defense across like you know two or three
spots can do stuff on ball offensively, but isn't the most efficient at it.
And so I don't know whether you want to, you know, dare
pair that with Julius Randall and RJ Barrett right now. He's also not the
player. I don't give up allbi topping for him. I don't give up
RJ Barrett for him. I don't give up quickly for him. It's the
Spurs are looking to go in a different direction. They already paid him,
they want salary filler picks. Maybe you're willing to give up like I would
give up Druce mcbrider, Quentin Grimes for him. Probably maybe it would be
like a but those are like names. I don't think there's a we could
talk about stars or if it's a Damien Loader. I just don't think there's
a player out there. And I don't think one player is going to solve
everything for the Knicks, which makes them I tweeted this a while ago.
There's so much right and wrong with the Knicks at the same time. Because
you look at the talent on the roster, you look at the depth some
of their bench performances. They have this nice mix of veterans and youth.
Even if you want to quibble about playing time, it's like, okay,
at least we've seen the flashes from Obi toppin. We have an idea of
what RJ. Barrett could be from last year. But there's just no like
magic solution here. There's just no one. I couldn't even come up with
a player, a semi available player, a top like that would just inject
something into the Knicks that makes them a better team or a much better team
than they were last season. I think that's what's tricky about navigating this deadline.
So I'll leave you with those names and also finish with this question.
What are the chances that they actually become sellers at the deadline? And do
you think that if we're going to fast forward to February third, I'm using
the Randle date, like you said, is sort of that artificial deadline.
Maybe it's not Randle they're selling, but if they're just you know, we're
talking right now. They are two games out of the six, two losses
out of the six spot in the East. This isn't a dire situation if
that's where you want to get back to. Do you do you think they
should be operating as sellers of the deadline if they're in a similar spot to
where they are right now, one game under five hundred as they close it
on that So, after the long answer coming from a very rambley question,
so I probably I got you no worries. I after the Golden State game
where Steph set the record, the Knicks had a stretch of a Knicks have
a stretch I think eight teen games coming up. It's the eighteen or sixteen
games against like all teams that are under five hundred or around, like they're
not gonna play any more Warriors types going forward. And it's that stretch that
Nick Spans have looked at where it's like, you go, you're nine and
nine in that stretch, then there's no point in even like talking about the
playoffs after this, Like you're you're a ten seed. You might as well
try to sell off some of the pieces you have and your sellers. They're
currently five and two in that stretch and they have Oklahoma City, Toronto,
Indiana, Boston, Boston, San Antonio coming up in their next six games,
so game exactly exact, so like they have a much easier schedule coming
up. That's say they go something crazy like like I'll be I'll be real,
somewhat realistic to how they played down to opponents this year, specifically the
last two games. Let's say in those eighteen games they go eleven and seven,
which is honestly generous compared to what they've been. I think that puts
them back at five hundred and then for the rest of the season. That
stretch also puts you at January twentieth, so you'll then have like a couple
of weeks before the deadline to know and that's really by that point you'll know
what the Knicks are, whether they're sellers, whether they can go after for
the sixth seed, whether they're you know, I mean, whether what is
of Julius Randall at that point, because look, I like Josh Shart.
I think he would solve some of the knicks problems. Think he'd be an
upgrade over Evan Fournier if that's a deal you could work around on those two
players. I'm in Derek White loved him when he when he I think he
could shoot better. And that's so I don't want to know if I want
to give up a significant piece for him. But like you said, it's
a maybe on what the young pieces you'd have to give up the trade I
did the player, maybe not necessarily the trade the person. I actually think,
if I were to give one answer to this question that she gave me,
if the Pelicans were willing to part with somebody and it was brandon Ingram,
that's somebody I would trade RJ. Barrett for, and I would put
our J. Barrett back with his teammate Zion. See if that is a
kick in the pants his duke teammate, Zion. If that's kicking the pants
and Zion needs to go, you know, get back into shape. I
get to play my college roommate. Awesome, Like that's the type of guy
I would want to invest in long term and see if that kick starts this
team. But the issue Dan, and this I think is where we can
a perfect place to wrap up, is there is one player that can fix
the Knicks this year, and it's Julius Randall. If he returns at all
to the player that he was last year, I'll take the player he was
after Fizdale got fired, and there was like four weeks where he was averaging
twenty three and eleven on legitimately good efficiency and not looking like a turnstyle on
defense. There was effort there. I don't need this la fitness version of
him from last year. That was one of the best individual seasons a Nick
has ever had, and that's not hyperboly like the season he had From accounting
stats plus the three point percentage, only Larry Bird and Nikolaukis have had it
in NBA history. There that is a legitimate stat that the Knicks Julius Randall
accomplished last year, which is why second team All NBA was warranted. And
I think that player has to be like seventy percent of that the rest of
the year. So if Randall can figure any thing out over the next couple
of weeks against inferior opponents, then that will depend on whether or not whether
or not it's even worth pursuing upgrading at the deadline, or whether or not
exploring other nuclear options or what the Knicks should do. I would probably agree
across the board, And there's also just a little caveat of I don't know
what's selling looks like for this team anymore, because you probably don't have widespread
interest in Randall or Fournier at this point. What are you gonna get for
Well, I don't I don't really think they should move Burks just because the
contract that he's on. But it would be Burks and I guess Robin like
dots with selling and then maybe Kemba. That's it. It's Burks, Robinson,
Kemba, because not even just those three, because I think you'd get
something for them. It's like I said, Deuce then slides in for Kemba,
Grimes then slides in for Burks. Jericho Sims could then slide in for
Mitch as far as rotation replacements once they're gone. Like this is where you
give the Knicks development staff, Walt Parent coming over from Utah, like the
guy that discovered a top one seed in the West out of Donovan Mitchell and
Rudy Gobert. Like they scouted properly and drafted properly, and they've got guys
to fill holes when you trade off these pieces and add on to the treasury
chest of assets. I just the bigger issues on this team that will determine
whether they're this like Mini sellers or not, like, they're not gonna go
nuclear like Indiana Mite. I think the Knicks. It's all gonna depend on
what Julius Randall is over the next couple of weeks. And then if I
mean, look, they're not when they make those trades, then gonna sit
Julius Randall the rest of the season. It would just the even more frustrating
part. But you know, we'll see what happens. Andrew, this was
great and incredibly long as always, but also incredibly enjoyable. Are you able
to tell our listeners where they can find you and all the fantastic work that
you do, so you could find my production work over at Nick's Film School.
We have a podcast on the Blue Wire podcast Network. We have a
YouTube channel. Just search for Nick's Film School. You could find us both
of our regularly scheduled shows that we put the whole episodes up on YouTube,
as well as a postgame live stream if you want to get our reaction to
specific Nick's games. Last night was a doozy where our leader and CEO,
Jonathan macgray went off on Julius Randall much more aggressively than I did as well.
So if you want to go for anyone who is not familiar with Jonathan
macgree, he takes a lot for him to go off. I saw the
clip that you post or beds whoever. Basically for him to say something like
that, it's a thing where like he's a teacher in his in real life,
so he has a lot of patients in him and last night Julius finally
made him put somebody in detention. So we have the YouTube channel, we
have a Patreon if you want to contribute to that, and obviously you could
find all of our stuff at Nick's Film score Us with a newsletter plenty of
great Knicks content. I really do think we're it's a top tier for Nicks
Nick's coverage across the board as far as fan generated content. And then my
podcast Final Review my buddy film critic of Bernard Ozowski and I review a different
all time great movie every week using ten different top five categories and try to
actually quantify how great that movie is. This week we're doing the Matrix.
To start off twenty twenty two, we're doing Mad Max Fury Road, which
is going to give me the opportunity to talk about great car chaises in movies.
Hello Fast and Furious franchise. It's a great It's a really fun show
and a different way to talk about movies that I think if you are a
fan of movies, you will enjoy it. That's file review available everywhere.
Podcasts are available. I echo everything you say, but I would add that
Nick's film Cool is the standard bearer for all Nick's coverage, not just among
fans. So go check out Andrew and the folks over at Nick's Film School.
Thanks so much, man, As you know, I'll be pestering you
again in the future. This was a blast as always. As always,
Dan, thank you.