WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:13.759 Well whiskey coming thak my pain, money don't From Powerline blog dot com and 2 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:20.719 produced by Ricochet dot Com. This is the Three Whiskey Happy Hour with your 3 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:28.239 bartenders Steve Hayward, John You and power Lines International Woman of Mystery Lucretia. 4 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:34.799 Have you gotta giving? Let that whiskey bloon where you're being in love down 5 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:46.439 in loon. Welcome everybody to a special Thanksgiving edition of the Three Whiskey Happy 6 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:50.840 Hour. This is John You, one of your hosts, and I'm joined 7 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:58.799 this weekend by my two favorite co turkey consumers, Steve Hayward. Steve, 8 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:00.560 how are you and where are you? Well, you know, I'm on 9 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:06.519 my usual location here at the bottom end of the Salinas Valley, where it 10 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:11.439 is up to upper seventies in daytime and down on the low thirties at night, 11 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.879 which is giving a nice This is one of the largest diurnal temperature swing 12 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.359 regions in the entire world, that turns out, which is why the wine 13 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:22.400 is so good from here. Well, you've also just described the range of 14 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:29.640 reactions between the wealthy and Lucretia towards Nicky Haley. And we're joined here by 15 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.560 the star of the show, the international Woman of Mystery, Lucretia. Lucretia, 16 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:36.719 how are you? Where are you and what are you up to this 17 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.079 thing? I'm home now, John, I just got back late last night 18 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.560 from Montana, from Helena, where I have very dear friends of this absolutely 19 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.959 gorgeous place, a huge place overlooking all of the valley, the Helena Valley, 20 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.519 to the other side of the mountains. We actually went. This won't 21 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.799 mean anything to you because you haven't seen Yellowstone, but just for the heck 22 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.079 of it, we all went to the Governor's to the capitol and the only 23 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:07.120 one working was the governor in the whole because it was Tuesday, Tuesday, 24 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:10.560 Wednesday, Wednesday before Thanksgiving Thanksgiving. And not only was the governor there, 25 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.919 but I think you guys saw the picture I sent outside of his office. 26 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.960 He has the American flag and then the Montana flag and the Israeli flag. 27 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.639 Yeah, of course, John, you don't watch Yellowstone. But what we 28 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:25.280 know. I know what's really going on. She was doing a week long 29 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.319 cosplay as Beth Dutton up in Montana. That was the real trip. That's 30 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.759 what's really going on here. Many listeners will understand that reference. I forgot 31 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.080 to get a picture of me walking down the stairs that you know, the 32 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.560 famous stairs, but we did go up and down the stairs, and yeah, 33 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:45.719 it was lovely. There's a outside of my friend's house. There's a 34 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.520 huge herd of about a thousand elk. Now it's like a hundred, but 35 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:57.080 which one night we had for dinner because my friend shot one of the bow 36 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.120 and arrow and it fell off the ridge down into his backyard and so we 37 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:06.840 had a grilled elk for dinner and that was delicious the night before Turkey dinner. 38 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:14.400 And it was just lovely hiking. And Montana has good politics. You 39 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:15.840 know, you, Steve, when you came up with Lucretia's moniker, you 40 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.479 should now call her the domestic woman of mystery because it's not international travel, 41 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:27.560 it's domestic travel. Actually, the listeners should all know that the three of 42 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:31.639 us to be with our loyal listeners, we all turned down a conference in 43 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:36.680 Milan to be together because it was too close to Thanksgiving and it ran into 44 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.759 our schedule. So some of our friends from previous conferences are now I don't 45 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:45.120 know what they eat in Italy for Thanksgiving because they probably don't give thanks on 46 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:52.039 Thanksgiving because that's when law their population left for here. Well, let me 47 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:53.400 ask you, guys, what did you do? Steve? You're a world 48 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:58.199 renowned gormand what did you cook up for Thanksgiving? I hope you post some 49 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.800 of your pictures on the line block. Yeah, no, I didn't take 50 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:05.400 any take. I collaborate with one of my old friends to rotisserie a turkey 51 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.840 on a Weber grill, and that's a great way to have it. Well, 52 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.199 the other way I will often do it is deep fried, which is 53 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.680 really good too, and a lot of fun and suitably dangerous. Right. 54 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:15.920 You can, you know, set fire to your house if you don't know 55 00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:18.120 what you're doing. But I do know what I'm doing, so I've done 56 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:23.120 it quite successfully several times. You know what the problem is? You have 57 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.000 to do it in peanut oil. You shouldn't eat peanut oil. Number one. 58 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.319 Number two. I can spend more money on peanut oil than I can 59 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.319 on the turkey. Yeah, and then you have to throw it away, 60 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:39.279 and it's okay, but I'd rather I don't mind rotsisstery a turkey, But 61 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.120 you can't rotissery be a very big one, that's the problem. Yeah, 62 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:46.120 we did one before we left for Montana, but it was only like fourteen 63 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:53.120 fifteen pounds something like that, and it was just barely turnable on the rotisserie. 64 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.879 Anyways, it's good. You should try it. It is very good. 65 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.639 Well, one job you just make. I suppose you know, to 66 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.959 the McDonald no ah, you know, if they had a turkey product, 67 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.839 I'd be all over it. I don't know why they don't have one of 68 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:14.040 those turkey stuffing and gravy sandwiches like they do in my hometown of Philadelphia for 69 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.600 sale. But one note of seriousness before we move on to the tox Maybe 70 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:24.279 maybe some of our readers and listeners are content this weekend because we spare them 71 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:30.040 having to read what progressives say about Thanksgiving, and actually it ties in in 72 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.959 an unusual way with what's going on on our college campuses with the Gossahamas War. 73 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.120 Many of you may have noticed that there's all this language about Israeli's being 74 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:46.040 colonialists and oppressors and the Palestinians being the oppressed. I think a lot of 75 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:54.040 that goes back to originally the progressive critique of Thanksgiving. Progressives hate Thanksgiving because 76 00:05:54.079 --> 00:06:00.680 it marks the invasion of North America by whites, the colonial suppressors against the 77 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:08.639 Native Americans, so some choice quotes to get the Thanksgiving juices started. Thanksgiving 78 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.759 Day should be known as National Land Theft and American Genocide Day. According to 79 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:17.879 Huffington Post contributor Nicole Breedlove, she asks, so when you sit down to 80 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:23.199 dinner this year, think about the countless Native Americans who lost their lives so 81 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.639 you can carve a turkey and get the best deals. On Black Friday, 82 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.800 University of Texas at Austin professor Robert Jensen declared one indication of moral progress in 83 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:38.240 the United States would be the replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self indulgent family 84 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:45.040 feasting with the National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self reflective, collective fasting. 85 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.920 So, John, I have one Christian what do you think of you? 86 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:51.519 Well, first, let me tell you so one of the things you 87 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:55.319 said you were going to ask me what I was thankful for. All of 88 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:00.759 my friends and all of their young, very young adult children are very very 89 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:10.639 conservative. But the oldest son has a girlfriend who's a Native American Indian medical 90 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.360 student, and she is very very liberal for all the obvious reasons when he 91 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.519 met her, and he's very proud of the fact that he's slowly moving her 92 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:24.360 where she should be, but she wasn't there. She sent a him a 93 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.519 text on Thanksgiving morning saying, since we gave you all of our land, 94 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.920 you should be thankful and hero back. Isn't it more like you gave up 95 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:39.279 all your land? So hers was tongue in cheek, of course, But 96 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:43.720 because he's made he's made great progress. But it's such nonsense, you know, 97 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.120 what a beautiful thing. And of course you know why we're very serious 98 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.879 about our Thanksgiving, it's because of Abraham Lincoln. Say, he's giving proclamation. 99 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:55.720 And I think that I'm going to go to the heart of the matter. 100 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:00.519 What progressives are incapable of. Is this the what I consider the paramount 101 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:07.000 virtue, and that as gratitude, and gratitude is not just sort of you 102 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.199 know, wow, I'm thankful for this really great turkey, but especially the 103 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:13.519 stuffing gratitude is just like a way of life. Wow, we are so 104 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.879 blessed to live in this country. And you know what, all of those 105 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.199 Native American Indians, the ones that we didn't kill a small box now I'm 106 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.600 just kidding, are grateful to be living in this country too, And you 107 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:33.399 know it should be and you know, history is a series of conquerors and 108 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:39.440 conquerres, and get over it and move on. It's so dumb. But 109 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.279 what progressives should do is sit down for a moment, stop the self indulgence 110 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:48.039 of guilt that they seem to live their life by, and be grateful and 111 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.840 thankful for all the blessings that we have just living in this country. I 112 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.799 mean, never mind, go one step further, fine, but just the 113 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.960 great fortune of living in this country, even as awful as it is right 114 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.039 now, is something every American should be profoundly grateful for. Okay, done 115 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.000 pontificating your turn, Steve. Well. Now, first of all, John, 116 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:15.080 I should be stated directly that Black Fridays matter, and you can already 117 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:20.759 see the potential contradictions in the progressive creed by not acknowledged by by running down 118 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.240 Black Friday. Okay, more seriously, look, first of all, this 119 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.440 is simply of a piece with I've used the phraseman, who I'll use it 120 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.960 again? What Roger Scrutin called so succinctly the culture of repudiation. Whatever it 121 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.440 is about Western civilization that works, the left hates it and wants to tear 122 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:39.799 it down and will use any excuse so it can be, you know, 123 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.559 Israel's the excuse of the month. And by the way, there's been some 124 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.440 really great articles by various people lately, I don't have command of the authors 125 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:52.080 right now, pointing out that Hamas changed their charter twice in the last twenty 126 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:58.480 years and adopted this Western university language about colonialism as the axis of their chief 127 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.919 grievance against Israel. Now that's what's picked up by the campus left and the 128 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:09.200 American left in this whole business. But I'm the Thanksgiving business. Actually, 129 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.240 Lucretia, he made a reference to smallpox. You know. I once asked 130 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.919 Charles Mann, who's an anthropologist has written two really great books about well, 131 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.279 one was fourteen ninety one, what was North America or the America's like before 132 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.600 Columbus arrived and in fourteen ninety three, what were the changes that that inflection 133 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.080 point marked. They're really pretty they're really good books. Because he's a great 134 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:31.879 writer. And I asked him once because he pointed out one of those books 135 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.159 that actually those civilizations, especially of Central America, the Aztecs and so forth, 136 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.679 they actually built boats and did some sailing out on the ocean and some 137 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.799 fishing. They never did any trans atlantic or transpacific travel, at least that 138 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:50.399 we know of, or in any kind of scale. So the question I 139 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:52.960 asked was what would have happened if the pattern of exploration had gone the other 140 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:58.679 direction? Suppose the Hastex had built big ships and sailed to Spain, maybe 141 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.240 even in large numbers. Would the conquest have gone the other direction? He 142 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:05.679 says, Oh, no, of course not, because the big problem for 143 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.960 the Native American populations on this content was they did not have any immunity to 144 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:15.360 a lot of the diseases influence on other things that had run rampant through the 145 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:20.879 European populations that had intermixed for centuries. Right. And you know, ninety 146 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.919 percent of those Central American explorers conquerors who went to, say, to New 147 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.879 York would have died. And so that's why the you know, the smallpox 148 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.919 thing has always been greatly exaggerated for ideological purposes. Right. So the last 149 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.559 thing I guess i'd say is something I think I've also said again, But 150 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.399 I'm seeing new signs of this. You know, they do these land acknowledgments, 151 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.559 and you know we've seen THET Berkeley, right John, And I'm sure 152 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.679 they are in Arizona too, Lucretia, right, and ever before every year. 153 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.559 Right. And And what I noticed is, and I've said this before 154 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.120 too, is that some administrator, if a student gives it, administrator will 155 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.919 say, oh, thank you for that beautiful statement, which they don't mean 156 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.240 at all. It's completely patronizing and condescending, because no one ever makes a 157 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.200 suggestion, well we should give the land back, shouldn't we Every time, 158 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:16.240 Well, well you're okay, you're the outlas, so give it back, 159 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:18.799 right. Instead, all we do is d named buildings. That's as far 160 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.679 as we go. And that's not even necessarily a Native American business. That's 161 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.240 if you know, if you're John Bolton, you said something mean about the 162 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:28.360 Chinese and the eighteen Ages, you get your name stripped from the Law School 163 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.080 of Berkeley. Okay, So this is not serious. So only Israel is 164 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.919 seriously expected to uh to give back their land and to have riots in the 165 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:45.159 streets and demonstrations demanding such. What's that? Okay, yes, of course, 166 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.519 But the point is that you don't ever see any serious demonstrations or movements 167 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.919 to say, let's give the land back to Native Americans. Why is that, 168 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:56.639 Well, there are a whole lot of reasons you can point to, 169 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:00.159 but one is is that you know, anti Semitism is easy to tap into 170 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.600 for the left, and that's one reason why. The latest story, sorry 171 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:07.480 I'm rambling. The latest story is a teacher at a public high school apparently 172 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.879 in Queens had to hide out from a student mob that discovered on Facebook that 173 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.919 she had attended a pro Israel rally in New York. Do you think it's 174 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:26.240 so important for those early education professors to propagandize their students so they can propagandize 175 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.480 their preschool students. Yeah, no, I understand all that. That's been 176 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:33.559 going on for years, and it's so now we're at a crisis point at 177 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.320 all this and we'll see, as Trump likes to say, we'll have to 178 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.480 see what happens. Let me bring it to a conclusion. Just my own 179 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.159 personal thought is that no country is perfect. And of course the United States 180 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:52.960 says had difficulties morally with Indians, and of course what we've talked about eight 181 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.559 times in the podcast slavery just like any nation. But that doesn't detract, 182 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:03.120 I think from I think America's exceptionalism and uniqueness. We should give things to 183 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.840 think about what the world would like if there had been no United States. 184 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.480 Think about what the world would have been like if we had allowed Native American 185 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:15.879 Indian tribes to maintain possession of the Americas. You know, we'd be we 186 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.840 might all be speaking Russian or German right now? They come over, isn't 187 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.360 the story that they came over the bearing straight from Russia? So they're actually 188 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:28.879 really originally Europeans anyway? Or going to play the game let's play it? 189 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.159 Yeah, I mean that goes to this other question about thanksgiving. Who? 190 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.919 Why does who do you get to? Who? Goes Lucretia's point. You 191 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:39.000 know, there's been Human history is full of conquerors and conquests and defeated and 192 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:45.240 winners. Who gets to decide who's the oppressor versus the colonialist today versus one 193 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.879 thousand years ago, five hundred years ago. You know, yesterday's a colonialist, 194 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:56.120 is today's oppressed any further with the environmentalists, because not only are you 195 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:03.080 colonizing were native or sorry, that's not even right anymore, it's indigenous people, 196 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:09.399 but you're also displacing the indigenous fauna, flora, and animals. And 197 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.879 how horrible is that that you would actually build a house in the middle of 198 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.440 some place where there was actually some kind of worm that lived there, and 199 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.799 that worm might be endangered for all you know, well, never mind the 200 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.879 worms, the darn you know, they killed the Holy mammoths. Man who 201 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:33.480 did he sounding like Joe Biden against tagline, Yeah, I mean, I 202 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.559 mean right. I mean people make jokes about the fundamentalist Christians who think human 203 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:43.200 beings lived alongside dinosaurs. But you know, the Native Americans, you know 204 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.240 it, did live alongside wooly mammoths who were dangerous animals. So they killed 205 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.639 them. All made perfect sense. They tasted good. I wish I had 206 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.000 a wooly mammoth, though they're pretty cool looking. So well, there's talking 207 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:02.840 they had the nick mammoth, so that's how I'd want to consume it. 208 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:11.559 Yeah, so let's let's move off Thanksgiving and start with our substantive issues for 209 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.759 the podcast. So first, there's been overwhelming demand on the power Line blog 210 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:21.679 for Steve to explain his wayward views on the First Amendment. For those who 211 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.840 didn't listen to last week's episode, we had a debate. I think it 212 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:30.320 could fairly be said to be Steve and the Crucia versus me about whether the 213 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:36.480 government has the right to restrict certain kinds of speech or points of view in 214 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:41.519 the public sphere, and this came this was prompted by Governor DeSantis order banning 215 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:48.639 various Palestine student groups from Florida campuses. Steve. Before Steve goes, I 216 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.600 just want to say, John, surprisingly enough, you've got the most positive 217 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:57.080 comments that you've probably gotten on any podcast, because either either Steve and I 218 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.799 didn't do a very good job of it, or there's you know, it's 219 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:06.920 a tough question, you know, absolutist First Amendment versus if you try to 220 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.440 make distinctions, who makes those distinctions and and how are they enforced, et 221 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.279 cetera. So I just want you to know. I mean, the smart 222 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:19.920 people were not in favor of you, John, but all my comments is 223 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:26.200 being positive when you're talking about it. Well, see see Lucretia. John 224 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.839 has those special glasses he got from a cracker jack box that filters out all 225 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.400 the negative comments about him, and he only reads the positive ones. Look, 226 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:40.079 all that shows is how how I want to be plad about this, 227 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:45.759 how philosophically illiterate so many of our own dear readers have become. I think, 228 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.359 I mean, this is a general pop problem. Here's the one. 229 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.240 I'll restated as briefly as I can, as simply as I can. Uh. 230 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:57.799 I'm laying out the principle, not necessarily the practice, but the principle 231 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:03.480 that free speech is not in in itself, it's a means to republican smaller 232 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.759 republican deliberation and ultimately the protection of all of our rights. And therefore, 233 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.240 as a matter of principle, as a matter of clarity, in the abstract, 234 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:19.039 we are perfectly justified in restraining the speech or delegitimizing a group that would 235 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.839 use the power they would acquire through their use of the right of free speech 236 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.720 to deny free speech to everyone else. That is why, by the way, 237 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.119 does anyone you know the Nazi Party is out lawed in Germany? Does 238 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.079 anybody contest that and think that's wrong now in America? But we couldn't do 239 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.720 in America, But it's okay for Germans. That's kind of a historicist relativist 240 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.680 argument that I think is defective now as a matter of whether it is wise 241 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.599 to try and put that abstract principle into practice, that's a matter of prudence 242 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.920 and a different question. And there I think you are correct John that we 243 00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:00.000 probably should not press that argument one because the underlying fum I mentioned would turn 244 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.519 around and boomerang against us. It already kind of does with the hate speech 245 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:08.839 CRUSE Agency on college campuses and elsewhere and online. But I do think it's 246 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:15.599 important to understand the principle because that opens up into the whole broader foundation of 247 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:21.640 our republic and the purpose of republican government to preserve our individual rights. And 248 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.720 it's, by the way, it parallels exactly the arguments about slavery, it 249 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:30.279 seems to me. And of course a lot of the practical arguments Lincoln made 250 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.920 were just that dictates of prudence, rather than absolutism, demanded complete abolition at 251 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:38.359 a stroke would have been to lose the entire cause. And so a similar 252 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.960 dynamic goes on here. And now lucretia will correct a remand more we not 253 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:47.000 correct you, but add to that, because it's not just a matter of 254 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.759 prudence, it's understanding. I wish for some reason, this is one quote 255 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:56.200 I can never get down. But when Lincoln says that public opinion is everything, 256 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:03.559 public opinion is everything, he who may he forms public opinion has greater 257 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.640 effect than anybody who makes laws, or the or the courts, and so 258 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.400 what's happening here, even below the level of prudence, is a kind of 259 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:22.960 the framing of the narrative. God forgive me for that. But as long 260 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:30.880 as we are willing to tolerate the kind of censorship that comes to right upon 261 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:37.240 the right from the left, and they control that entire debate, then of 262 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.319 course we've lost the game. It's not just enough to say I don't want 263 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.480 the Biden administration censoring me, because we see what they do, and so 264 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.039 we don't want them censoring anybody. But what we've really got to do, 265 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.759 and it's what Steve said, I just want to push the point a little 266 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.519 further, and that is, let's remind everybody why it is we have freedom 267 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:06.240 of speech. To remind people it's not so Rashid Talib can open her ugly, 268 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.880 fat mouth and spew hatred. That's not what the First Amendment's for. 269 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:18.359 Now again, prudentially, isn't it better for us to let her open her 270 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.640 big, fat, ugly mouth at every turn and people see how awful, 271 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:27.960 how horrible, what a subhuman, despicable more on she is? Probably so, 272 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:32.359 But then there's the other side of it, which I mentioned earlier, 273 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:40.880 which is as long as the propaganda is being what's the word promulgated on on 274 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:47.480 young impressionable call it stupid people who have been taught not to critically think, 275 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:55.359 but just to feel, and you can certainly encourage them to embrace this whole 276 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:02.200 self indulgent guilt about whatever it is colonials, oppressors, et cetera. Then 277 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.000 what we've got is a situation where the stark terms you want to present it 278 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.160 in John, you absolutist, positivist First Amendment to get it, I totally 279 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.359 get it. I'm not I'm actually not making fun of John. The problem 280 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:25.559 is she didn't throw some human mouth in there too. But it's it's a 281 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:30.720 war we've already lost if we can't come back to the very root of the 282 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:37.599 matter and say the First Amendment doesn't exist, so that Rashida Talib can say 283 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.960 from the River to the Sea and then pretend it doesn't mean what it means, 284 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.720 because in this I mean it's I think this is more true than it's 285 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:48.880 ever been with social media and disinformation campaigns, which are not, by the 286 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:56.759 way, promulgated by the right, that we've got to do something to change 287 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.279 public opinion and public understanding and how that works. It's a very difficult question, 288 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:04.480 and that's where prudence comes back in. But it's not enough just to 289 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.240 say the First Amendment should be absolute, because the people in charge have already 290 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.799 used that to their advantage to stop people like you and me and Steve from 291 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.319 being able to speak what we know to be true. That's my concern about 292 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:22.039 it. But Shine, I told you last time, I don't know what 293 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.960 the answer is other than to keep talking about it. So two points. 294 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.039 Here's the Lincoln quote, which I think is a wonderful quote. It says 295 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.680 he said, in this age, in this country, public sentiment. Notice 296 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.400 he didn't call public opinion. Public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing 297 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.960 can fail against it, nothing can succeed whoever Molt's public sentiment goes deeper than 298 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:48.039 he who enacts statutes or pronounces judicial decisions. And then one second point, 299 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.119 I have a hypothetical question for you both. But this is really I think 300 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.160 illuminating, and sorry listeners that we continue with the subject. But I think 301 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:02.480 it is really a very productive discussion. Is from the lawyer's perspective, I 302 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:07.039 see two different approaches to the First Amendment and I'm surprised that the one you're 303 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.400 taking, both of you are taking. So you can say there's an instrumental 304 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.680 value to free speech, you know what other greater goals does free speech allow 305 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.559 us to achieve? Here both of you saying free speech is an instrument that 306 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:25.279 allows us to engage in republican self government. I thought you were actually going 307 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.920 to make more of a natural rights argument based on a kind of lockey in 308 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.880 theory that oh, no one gives up their right to free speech when they 309 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:37.680 enter society. It's just one of those natural rights that no government would take 310 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.359 away. So here's my hypothetical question for you both. Are you both arguing 311 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:51.240 that it is impossible to have a legitimate political system that denies the right of 312 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:56.720 free speech. Could you have a government that was legitimate even though it doesn't 313 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:03.759 protect free speech. I suppose it's possible if you've got that public sentiment that 314 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.880 has all the right elements to it. But John understands something I actually believe. 315 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:15.480 I don't believe that freedom of speech is a natural right. I believe 316 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.160 it's a civil right. I believe freedom of conscience is a natural right. 317 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:25.960 And Jefferson says the same thing. Freedom of conscience means the right to think, 318 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.640 to believe, etc. Etc. And there's that government should never, 319 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:37.240 ever, under any circumstances, punish people for what they think. Okay, 320 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:42.279 for what they think now, But does that mean that you should be able 321 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:48.599 to say anything anytime anywhere? Those are two very different things. For me 322 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.119 to have the right to believe in a creator, in God in Catholicism, 323 00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:04.160 in Judaism, even God forbid in in Islam. You know the government shouldn't 324 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.880 get involved in that. Now I can, as we both know. The 325 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:14.000 right to exercise our freedom of religion is not I think a natural right. 326 00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:17.880 I think it's a civil right protected by a good and decent society. Do 327 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:22.240 you see the difference there. Government can't change the way I think. It 328 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:27.200 can't force me to think a different way, but it should not punish me 329 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:30.960 if it thinks I don't think the way it wants me to. That's why 330 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.079 it's a natural right. You don't give it up when you enter into civil 331 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.359 society. But you can give up freedom of speech. You can give up 332 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.440 even the free exercise of religion if you want to. If you're religion, 333 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:48.359 if you're an Aztec and you believe that you should you sacrifice virgins to the 334 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.759 son God? Then fine, believe it all you want, but you don't 335 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:57.279 get to exercise it in this society. Go ahead, I'll answer your hypothetical 336 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.519 question. John. To restate it is, could you have a legitimate republican 337 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.359 regime that did not recognize or curtailed free speech? Is that a good okay? 338 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:10.559 My answer John is yes, if men were angels. Recurred to that 339 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.160 famous phrase from Federals fifty one. Right now, I do think I want 340 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:22.200 to answer hypothetical with actually not really a hypothetical. The parallel case in history 341 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.559 in some ways is Lincoln suspending the rid of habeas corpus. By the way, 342 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.279 why does the Constitution provide for the suspension of the rid of habeas corpus 343 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.480 and for putting down insurrection and rebellion in the text of because self preservation is 344 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:41.400 the first object in modern natural rights theory, Right, Steve that the reason 345 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:47.319 that you used suspend the rid of habeas corpus is to suppress speech, right, 346 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.119 right? But then remember what Lincoln said about that. Of course, 347 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:55.160 there's the leave aside the question of who gets to suspend habeas corpus, Congress 348 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.599 or the president there was that constitutional ambiguity of the matter. But the broader 349 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.119 question is this, Remember Lincoln's argument about it was must all the laws fail 350 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:10.279 to preserve this one? My hypothetical is if you thought for real that that 351 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.359 say, let's put it directly, if you really thought that Nazis were going 352 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.079 to win in the court of public opinion in America, wouldn't self preservation and 353 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.240 republic government say we absolutely justified in stopping them from using their speece to do 354 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:26.920 that. That's a fanciful hypothetical, but so is yours. Actually, So 355 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.279 Okay, well, let's move on. That's not just we're gonna hear. 356 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.960 We're gonna hear about it from our listeners and readers said, good, good. 357 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.720 Let's turn to some of the news that we haven't had a chance to 358 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.480 talk about yet. One is great, a big victory for Donald Trump in 359 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.599 these lawsuits trying to drive him from the ballot based on the Fourteenth Amendment, 360 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.880 Section three, which we've talked about a little bit on the podcast in the 361 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.079 past, but in an unusual way. So we had talked about earlier the 362 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:07.680 Minnesota case where a judge there found that Donald Trump could not be disqualified from 363 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:14.319 the primary ballot, but did not decide on a general election ballot. This 364 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:18.920 Colorado case was different. I think reached the right conclusion, but in giving 365 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:25.519 a giving Trump a victory, also took away the victory was that this state 366 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:30.119 trial judge in Colorado found that the Fourteenth Amendments disqualification clause, and this is 367 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:34.839 the clause that says certain people who are connected to former officeholders who are connected 368 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:42.039 to an insurrection are not eligible to run for office. This clause, according 369 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:48.079 to the judge I think properly found that doesn't apply to the president. It 370 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.839 lists a variety of officers like members of the legislature, judges, officers of 371 00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:59.720 the United States, but the Constitution uses the phrase president and officers of the 372 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.200 United States separately. One more important reason is because officers in the United States 373 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:10.279 are appointed. Presidents are elected. However, and this is I think the 374 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:18.599 interesting part is the judge found that were not for the Fourteenth Amendments failure to 375 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:23.400 include the president, Donald Trump would have been disqualified because she also found that 376 00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:30.279 he did commit incitement to insurrection in a way that was not protected by the 377 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.480 subject. We're just talking about the free speech clause. There's a case called 378 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:40.319 Brandenburg, which says, right that you can punish speech which incites violence. 379 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.279 And this judge found that Donald Trump did in fact speak in a manner that 380 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.960 incited the attacks on the capitol in January because she held a trial with evidence. 381 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.839 Ah, well, oh yeah she did. She doesn't get defined things 382 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:57.559 like that. John, I mean, I'm not happeing on you. I'm 383 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:03.160 just saying, let's be honest here. There was a trial that didn't even 384 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.599 accuse him of that and which for which he was acquitted, meaning impeachment. 385 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.279 You mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean my reading 386 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.799 this, John, is first, the judges seem to be trying to have 387 00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:18.119 it both ways. In Minnesota, keep their options open, maybe we'll get 388 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.319 a more inventive argument to keep him off the general election ballot in November. 389 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.440 And then in Colorado I have the correct reading. I think you're right, 390 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.759 it done include the president. However, you know, dicta gets a bad 391 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.119 rap right in uh, you know, because there's so many Supreme Court cases. 392 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.079 Will hear that somebody, well what they wrote that one justice roll, 393 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:41.359 that's just dicta. That's just what they're saying and thinking. But this is 394 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.000 really a case of dick to run him up saying, well, you know, 395 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.839 the fourteen Amendment doesn't apply, but really he's guilty of something, and 396 00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:56.039 implicitly it's it implies it says that the Democrats are incompetent in their impeachment of 397 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.079 Trump three years ago after January sixth, although that wouldn't work either, but 398 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:04.680 still it's an interesting spect. I think this is not over as partly what 399 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.880 I'm saying. Yeah, well, one thing is this only applies in Colorado. 400 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.880 There's still i think, law suits going in every state to try to 401 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.880 keep Trump off the ballot. Yes, you only need on them, and 402 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:17.640 that will force it, and that will force it up to the federal courts, 403 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.400 to the appeals Court and autimately the Supreme Court, I suppose. Until 404 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.839 well, first there has to be one judge that finds that takes the next 405 00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:30.039 step this Colorado judge didn't take, which is actually ban Trump from a ballot, 406 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.759 right, and that hasn't happened. Actually, all the courts so far, 407 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.480 I think there's now three of them. Michigan also, Michigan, Minnesota, 408 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.960 and Colorado have all refused this effort to keep trying. In Minnesota, 409 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.200 Yeah, Minnesota, sorry, Michigan, Minnesota and Colorado. But Lucretia, 410 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:49.559 I we interrupted you. What were you about to say about the dream? 411 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.559 And I interrupted you. I just wanted to say, I find this this 412 00:32:52.799 --> 00:33:02.640 nonsense about somehow anything, anything whatsoever that Trump had to do with January sixth, 413 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.400 with questioning election results, with etcetera, is nothing. But lawfare is 414 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:15.279 not a it's not adequate. It's it's the worst kind of political persecution of 415 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:22.400 your political enemies that we've ever seen. I mean, it's not rival that 416 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.480 I can think of by anything in our history, not even some of the 417 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.759 nasty stuff that went on in the very early founding years. This is just 418 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:37.200 and that anybody who claims to have any kind of the loyalty to the law, 419 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.799 to the rule of law, would it entertain such a ridiculously stupid conversation 420 00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.559 even, I mean, that should have been just dismissed outright. I suppose 421 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.359 you want to get your name out there and so on. We now know. 422 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:52.519 John. By the way, I hope you've been watching the release of 423 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:57.160 the January sixth tapes. The whole thing is a scam. There was no 424 00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:02.079 insurrection, there was no riot. Anything that was done was at the invitation 425 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:06.960 of either the Capitol police or the FBI infiltrating. I mean, it is 426 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:16.320 absolutely clear that they cherry picked bs segments of those Capital Tapes videos to make 427 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:21.559 their case. And now that we're seeing the whole thing is it is bone 428 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.920 chilling. How much of a scam that's not even the right word. How 429 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:32.199 much of a incredible undercover political operation this has been from the top down. 430 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.960 And I have nothing else to say about it. That's the fact that one 431 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:42.079 single person is still in jail for January sixth, the fact that they have 432 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:47.840 not each been paid millions of dollars in damages for wrongful prosecution. I could 433 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.000 go on and on and on. It is the worst thing that has ever 434 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:58.559 happened in the history of this country what has been done in response to the 435 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:02.320 insurrection on January sixth. And I don't know that we'll ever recover from it. 436 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:07.360 So there, well, I'll pass over that John and simply say that 437 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.719 what's that money python, Let's paraphrase money pie, Let's not worry about who 438 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:15.400 interrupted whom and repair to Winston Churchill's line to his son Randolph, once stop 439 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.639 interrupting me when I'm interrupting you. I would wanting to use that lucretia forever 440 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.840 my moderator role prevents me from getting into an argument about lucretia. About this, 441 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:32.079 we'll postpone that, but at least to do the research John outside of 442 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:37.199 the Washington Post and the New York Times research what we want to What I'd 443 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.159 like to see is a commission or somebody. Doesn't have to be an Actually 444 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:43.000 I have the commission. No, no, wait a minute, let me 445 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.079 finish. It doesn't even have to be an official government commission. It could 446 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:50.519 be a private, entirely private effort of imminent people, or it qualify people. 447 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.119 Whatever the point is is to take all the footage, analyze it thoroughly, 448 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:58.880 put together a thorough timeline what happened where? Because it's the huge perimeter 449 00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.760 of the Capitol, right how many? I mean, I'm still convinced because 450 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.760 I know people who were there on January sixth who never went even close to 451 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.199 the building. They were out on the lawn along with you know, tens 452 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:10.920 of thousands of other protesters. And you know, what was the proportion of 453 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.519 people who did break glass and do things like that, And that I think 454 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:21.280 is still entirely undetermined. But I think that both this and the ballot access 455 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:23.800 question are entirely irrelevant because as we know, Nicky Hay is going to be 456 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:29.960 the nominee and not Donald Trump. You stole my segue. You absolutely stole 457 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:35.719 my segue, which makes this an opportune moment to hear from a message from 458 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:44.559 our sponsors, which I'm sure include Chevron, McDonald's and Boeing. I can 459 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:50.320 only hope, because my hope someday is to shoot down in dangered species with 460 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:58.199 Patriot missiles and to eat them at McDonald's. And now we're back, and 461 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.360 we will pick up this January sixth the videos next week. I'm eager to 462 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.239 do it, but we've got so many other things to talk about. As 463 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:10.039 Steve just previewed, I was going to ask Lucretia to give us her thoughts 464 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:15.639 about the Rise of Haley. That could be a great book someday, the 465 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:20.239 Rise of Haley. So the latest pulling. Now, of course, Donald 466 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.960 Trump still has an enormous noble digit lead, double digit lead, but Nikki 467 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:30.760 Haley is now tied with Ron DeSantis in Iowa for the number two slot, 468 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:37.159 and in New Hampshire she now stands alone in second place in the primary, 469 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.679 is in the second place she's not tied with DeSantis in Iowa, she's still 470 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:47.039 three points behind. Sorry, and she's three points behind and nationally and you 471 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:52.960 know this, this is sort of the horse race on steroids. I guess 472 00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:00.360 you could say where the media is desperately, desperately, especially the center slightly 473 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:06.440 center right media, are doing everything they can to make it look like in 474 00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:12.480 any universe she could be a viable candidate. But anyway, if you look 475 00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:22.159 at her standing against say, I don't know, Williamson, Phillips, even 476 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:29.679 RFK Junior against Biden, why is nobody talking about how well RFK Junior is 477 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.559 doing against Biden. He's doing way better than Nicki Haley. So, I 478 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.519 mean, this is just more crap. She's not going to win the nomination, 479 00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:43.079 and anybody stupid enough to support or deserves what they get, which is 480 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.320 more of that crappy rhino stuff I'm so tired of. But okay, sorry, 481 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:50.800 I'm done now. Steve is more of a political tactician than you. 482 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.880 But here's another set of polls that shows in a general head to head against 483 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:59.840 Biden. Yeah, right now, Haley beats Biden by ten points, fifty 484 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:06.039 five to forty five. Trump beats Biden right now by only four points fifty 485 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:10.079 two to forty eight, and DeSantis beats Biden by only two points fifty one 486 00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:15.559 to forty nine. So if Republicans want to win, if Conservatives want to 487 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:21.559 win and get this terrible progressive regime out of office, isn't the smart money 488 00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.840 to support Haley. Yeah, here, I'm going to disappoint Lucretia by partly 489 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:29.280 agreeing with her. I don't think those polls are worth the paper they're printed 490 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.960 on, the recycled paper they're printed on, and I can go through live. 491 00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:37.280 That's kind of boring they reflect. I think what they really reflect is 492 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.239 the unpopularity of Biden. I mean, you realize that Trump is polling higher 493 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.440 than he has ever pulled since he got into presidential politics in twenty fifteen, 494 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.559 which ought to be shocking everybody in the media, in the Democratic Party, 495 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.880 And actually I think it is. Haley is the kind of the fresh new 496 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.960 thing. I've said this before, I'll say it again, or the Republican 497 00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:00.760 primary electorate always goes for a time at least the shiny new opbject. And 498 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.159 look, I actually think she's all right. I'm not convinced that she would 499 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.400 do well, there we go. Stop interrupting me. By interrupting you, 500 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:14.039 I told you I'd only partially agree with you. But I'm not convinced she 501 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:19.119 would hold up as a really strong general election candidate. I think DeSantis's relatively 502 00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:23.599 lower number sort of Trump like edge, is a function of the media in 503 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:28.519 a nept campaign. Stipulate that. But second, he has been the subject 504 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:31.960 of media attacks even greater than Trump has. I think proportionally right, he's 505 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.079 the devil, He's worse than Trump. That's the theme the left is already 506 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.079 laying out when I thought he was gonna maybe win. And by the way, 507 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:45.119 if Haley did emerge as the nominee or likely nominee, just wait, 508 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:50.559 you will see a massive attempt by the media to scrounge through every aspect of 509 00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.840 her personal life, every little tiny decision she made as governor of South Carolina 510 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.719 and smear her in the same way they did to Mitt Romney. Oh my 511 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:01.360 god, Mitt Romney messed up some kid his hair in prep school? Is 512 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.199 does the dog on the roof of the what that put his dog on a 513 00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.480 cage on the roof of the car, which actually I kind of agree does 514 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:12.360 disqualifying, But it's a lot that disqualifies him. But notice they didn't do 515 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.599 it before he got the Of course, that's my point right now, right 516 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.159 now. Yeah, I think Haley has a lot of weaknesses as a candidate. 517 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:21.960 I think she's been a surprise, but I think it is the surprise 518 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:25.360 in the same way that Ben Carson and what's his name, the pizza guy 519 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:32.400 from two thousand and eight, Herman Kane nurse. This is worse because it's 520 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.000 she's more an accomplished person. I mean, she actually has been governor of 521 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.800 a state and ambassador of the UN, unlike Herman Kane or Ben Carson have 522 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:44.880 never held that. Wait, you guys have called for defunding it while she 523 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.199 was ambassador for the UN. And I'm just about to ask, what is 524 00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:52.800 your problem with Haley. I don't have a problem with her. I just 525 00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:55.679 think she's not as strong as people think. I think she's perfectly fine myself, 526 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.079 but I also think that she would not fine. But she's not. 527 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.920 She's maybe she's good on abortion, but beyond that, she's just horrible. 528 00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.559 Oh. I think she's good on the budget. She's only one I think 529 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:12.480 who's pointing out that we're spending ourselves into it. She's like the last Republican 530 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:14.880 around is saying, you know, we really do want to do something about 531 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:16.639 our runaway entitlements. But no one else said, Christia, what is the 532 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:22.000 source of your beef with hers? Why do you dislike herself? And I 533 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:27.519 actually I will never vote for anybody who's a neo Khan again. Never. 534 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:34.480 I am so tired of our entire political system being completely disrupted. What's the 535 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:43.360 right word. It's despicable now because of the incredible influence of defense contractors, 536 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:50.000 the sick, ugly corrupt relationship. I mean, it's when Eisenhower warned of 537 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.239 the military industrial complex, he was a little bit worried about, well, 538 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:58.840 we've got these defense contractors who still need to rely on government money. It 539 00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:04.800 is so corrupt now, it is so sick. It is such a a 540 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:12.800 deep cancer in our society. We no longer make foreign policy decisions based upon 541 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.320 national security. They're entirely based upon what Raytheon wants, what Boeing wants. 542 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:23.599 And she is the poster child for that entire ugly corrupt situation. I didn't 543 00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:28.960 I did not really disagree with you, Lucretia. I'm gonna say I did 544 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:34.360 not expect to hear the hidden hand voice of Noam Chomsky showing up on the 545 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:39.599 and the colcos. I know this is the this is the criticism that some 546 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.840 made of World War One and World War two and the VK. But so 547 00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:49.480 what why Marxists. I don't play that game that Steve wants to play. 548 00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.320 Oh, they said that world War two, so you must be wrong because 549 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.199 we were right about world War Two. No, there is no reason for 550 00:43:55.280 --> 00:44:00.920 us to be in Ukraine, zero lesson, zero lessons, reason for us 551 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.440 to be funneling billions of dollars to those corrupt Nazis in Ukraine with whom we 552 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:12.639 have nothing in common. Wait, let them settle, let them figure it 553 00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:16.159 out. Let Zelenski and Putin figure out what they're going to do. We 554 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:21.519 should stay out of it because all I actually saw a headline the other day 555 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:31.519 or for an article which was our ramping up for Ukraines to provide yet weapons, 556 00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:37.800 et cetera for Ukraine has taught us valuable lessons about not funding our defense 557 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:43.360 contractors sufficiently. That's honest, guy. We got to call a cease fire, 558 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.800 which is actually preview of our next one. And Steve's got to host 559 00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:51.960 next week. Because we've got me and Lucretia have to engage on this issue. 560 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.519 But it actually raises the next topic. And I want to see if 561 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:59.639 Lucretia is going to be consistent here because the next top next topic we have 562 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:05.559 on our list is, of course the deal for ceasefire in the Gazzo war. 563 00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:10.199 Where and it's going on right now as we're recording our show. Israel 564 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:16.719 has agreed to a pause it's called in military operations in exchange for the release 565 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:22.039 of hostages. I was going to ask you, guys, is this a 566 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:27.679 good idea for Israel? Is Is this actually not a tactical mistake because now 567 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.400 the pressure will be on to keep the ceasefire in effect. You ready hear 568 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:37.920 the progressive left demanding that the ceasefire become permanent. What lucrecious criticism of the 569 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:43.480 Ukraine War should also bring to mind the fact that the United States is heavily 570 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:47.000 supporting Israel in its own war. Well, one of the worries that Israel 571 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:52.480 greater than it has been that You've had a chart out there just the other 572 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.760 day showing that that we're that our level of support for Israel has actually gone 573 00:45:55.840 --> 00:46:01.159 down or remained constant just saying, though, that our foreign policy is driven 574 00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:06.800 by defense contractors. What's our interest in providing so much money and military aid? 575 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.679 Yeah, that's parts of the world. What about it Israel different? 576 00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:15.840 Now, I'm just saying it's Israel different than Ukraine. Yes, in the 577 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:22.039 sense there is a moral position that needs to be taken, moral clarity about 578 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:27.119 the situation in Israel that is not there in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. 579 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.800 There are no good guys in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Israel 580 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.480 is the good guy, full stop, emphatic period. I saw this great 581 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.440 movie over the weekend. I will tell you about it, and for me 582 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:42.719 to say a great movie, you know, that's amazing. But there is 583 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.199 no good guy in Ukraine and Russia. Now, do I think we should 584 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:50.199 be sending hundreds of millions of billions of dollars over to Israel. No, 585 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.280 I don't think so. But I do think we should have moral clarity about 586 00:46:52.280 --> 00:47:00.840 it. I think we should absolutely be saying no, no, release hostages. 587 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:04.880 Release one hundred and forty nine of the one hundred and how many are 588 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:07.480 there one hundred and fifty two hundred and forty is two hundred and fifty Yeah, 589 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:13.000 I couldn't Rememberred release two hundred and forty nine of them and then we'll 590 00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.480 have a ceasefire and you give us the last one. But we broker that 591 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:19.880 deal, John, We know it's going to be a disaster. We are 592 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:25.440 responsible for our idiot idiots in the State Department and the Biden administration. All 593 00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:30.079 they want is a ceasefire because they want to cuddle up to the stupid left. 594 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:35.719 The left is now the military and the defense contractors. That's the worst 595 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:39.480 part. It used to be back in the day that you know, we 596 00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:45.559 could consider the defense contractors the military sort of a at least center institution. 597 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.840 Now they're all just as bad. They're all they're all rascheeted to leave. 598 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:57.719 So first of all, I agree with Lucretia that they are not comparable circumstances. 599 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.599 I mean, yeah, the Restate of Israel is a civilizational classes that 600 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:05.960 were implicated in against the enemies of the West, including our domestic enemies of 601 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:09.639 the West. Ukraine is a Ukraine Russia. That's two nationalistic nations fighting each 602 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:14.320 other over territory. And I'm not as averse to Ukraine as Lucretia is. 603 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.079 But that's a different But then also the second point, which is a lot 604 00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:22.400 of our military aid to Israel is actually R and DAD for things like anti 605 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:27.639 missile technology. We're getting a lot out of that because it's actually keeping alive 606 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:31.440 actually Reagan's old Strategic Defense initiative, which we even neglected, but for the 607 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:37.159 Israeli need to actually have it right now against thousands of rockets being sent at 608 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:39.800 them. Is advancing that technology. So it's very much in our national interest 609 00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:45.079 to be part of that research and development and production process because it could benefit 610 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:49.320 us someday directly if say, the North Koreans and Iranian start shooting missiles at 611 00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.320 US or a Chinese. Okay, it's hard to know exactly what's going on. 612 00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:55.719 I think it's true that we're probably behind the scenes doing very bad things. 613 00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.719 But a couple of things to matter me. They said that we broke 614 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.039 it to deal, Steve. I'm not making that up. I'm not sure 615 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:06.519 I understand, but please, deal would not have occurred if the United States 616 00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:09.239 didn't correct. No, and it's very very bad. A couple of things. 617 00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:16.199 One is, remember that after the nineteen seventy two PLO attack on the 618 00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:21.519 Israeli athletes in Munich. It took Israel ten or fifteen years, but they 619 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:27.199 killed every single the Israeli Massad killed every single Arab terrorist involved in that whole 620 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:32.079 plot. And a few days before this deal became public and was agreed to, 621 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:36.159 Netanyahu made a statement that didn't get a lot of press coverage. He 622 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.760 said, We're going to go after all Hamas leaders, including the ones in 623 00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:44.000 Cutter, so they know those guys were living in luxury hotels and all the 624 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:47.840 rest of that. He threatened to Taylor Swift, what's that riacher than Taylor 625 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:52.880 Swift and correct? Correct, But here's the thing. Israel's done this before. 626 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:54.000 I mean it's eight or ten years ago. Now I forget, but 627 00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.840 they bumped off a couple of Hamas people. I think it was Hamas, 628 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.840 maybe it was Hesbola in Buy. I think it was right. They have 629 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:05.119 the you know, they were addressed as tennis players or something. Anyway, 630 00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.559 the point is Israel, when it put some mind to it, can do 631 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:13.559 that. So I'm wondering, quite separate or parallel to whatever we may have 632 00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:19.559 been doing, whether those threats actually said to Hamas well. Maybe it's in 633 00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:22.840 our interest to let some hostages go. I don't know. But the other 634 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.400 thing that was reported, you know, the Israeli war cabinet for this whole 635 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.719 business is apparently, I think thirty eight people, which is a lot. 636 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.320 I think Churchill's war cabinet in World War Two was six people, and that's 637 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:38.480 because of the crazy multi party system they have in Israel. But supposedly the 638 00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:44.559 vote in favor of the deal after a long debate was thirty five to three 639 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.639 something along last line, So you know, there weren't that many voices voting 640 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:52.199 against it. And I think it's a bad deal. I think it's going 641 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.360 to work out badly. On the other hand, you know, the people 642 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.199 like you, well, hold on, man, let me finish please. 643 00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:06.159 On the other hand, what if they had said no to the deal and 644 00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:08.440 it turns out here in three weeks, three months, whatever it is, 645 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:12.599 that the hostages were then killed and you passed up a deal to get some 646 00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:16.360 of them out. It's a no win situation for the Israeli government. And 647 00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:22.119 I'm reminded of the line that John Lucatch used about to respond to critics like 648 00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.679 Pap Buchanan who said, how could Churchill have aligned himself with Stalin? And 649 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:29.639 Lucatch has answered a great Hungarian born historian. By the way, he said, 650 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.960 Churchill made a simple calculation that saving half of Europe was better than losing 651 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.039 all of Europe. And I think that's the calculation here. It sucks. 652 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.920 It totally sucks. It may go very badly. The fact that no Americans 653 00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:45.519 came out. By the way, now we're going to really see how craven. 654 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:49.320 Lucasia will say, there is no bottom to how craven the Biden administration 655 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.880 is, but we're going to see how craven is the pressure for them to 656 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:55.320 continue to cease fire, the promise that we're going to get Americans out eventually, 657 00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:58.880 and whether the Israelis will say no, we have to presume the fight. 658 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:05.400 Stephen, anything you just said, but what I did I think needs 659 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:07.960 to be said. You act like this happened in a vacuum. What if 660 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.960 what if there was a kind of support for Israel that there was, especially 661 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:19.360 at the beginning for Ukraine, where you know, absolutely everything could be done 662 00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:24.199 for Ukraine and Russia was you know, the devil personified and Ukraine could do 663 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:30.199 no wrong. That's not the case for Israel. They're constantly just trying to 664 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:37.519 walk this ridiculously stupid line to keep assholes sorry, people like them sorry. 665 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:44.079 You can believe that Blincoln and others who really don't want to support Israel because 666 00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:50.000 the Left doesn't want them to Israel has to walk the line so that they 667 00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:53.639 don't lose that public sentiment. John talked about earlier. That's why the ceasefire, 668 00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:58.119 why thirty three of them voted for it. They didn't think it was 669 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.719 ever going to be a good thing. But you're right, not good choices, 670 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:05.360 But understand why there's not good choices, which goes back to my original 671 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:10.840 thing to John. The more clarity we should be having as America as the 672 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:16.599 Biden administrator. I know that's stupid to say, but if our support for 673 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:23.800 everything what you said about Israel being right now the representative of the last vestiges 674 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:30.239 of Western civilization that we in America need to support, that support should be 675 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:35.559 so unwavering that a ceasefire would have never been necessary. That's what I'm trying 676 00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:37.800 to say. So let me tell that makes sense. Wrap this up with 677 00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.679 two thoughts, and then we'll turn to our last topic, which is the 678 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:50.719 elections throughout the world which show conservatism making headway. But first, Steve's story 679 00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:55.159 brought to mind a story about Teddy Roosevelt and hostages, because the problem, 680 00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.000 in part is, once you show that you are willing to trade US Israel 681 00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:06.360 had a thousand Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli soldier, you're just creating the incentive 682 00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:09.480 to take more hostages. That's what the conservatives love to talk about, unintended 683 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.880 consequences and the creation of incentives for the future. And Teddy Roosevelt was faced 684 00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:20.679 with the kidnapping of an American hostage in North Africa. I think the name 685 00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:24.760 of the terrors, they call him terrorists the brigand back then who took the 686 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:30.280 hostage was a fell named Razuli, and I think the American was named Picardis 687 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:35.920 particularly anyway. And so when they were when Roosevelt was asked what the American 688 00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:39.239 policy was, he said, he only sent the four words, I believe 689 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:45.199 cardiffs alive, are Razuli dead? That was the American position on hostages for 690 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:51.119 a long time. Once you devate that tactically, you've given Hamas an enormous 691 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:53.599 advantage. Here. Yeah, to add a footnote to that, a more 692 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:58.079 modern one, John is you remember well, was the agony over a handful 693 00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.039 of hostages in Lebanon that nearly wrecked to the Reagan administration the second term right 694 00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:06.239 that, and they did release two or three and then all probably took two 695 00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:08.039 or three new ones. That's what happened, you know, within forty eight 696 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:13.199 hours. Because what had been signaled by the American regime and the of course 697 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:15.199 of the Israelis were mixed up in that in an odd way, was that 698 00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:20.320 we priced the very high value on hostages. And in that case, by 699 00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:23.880 the way, no one remembers this except me from all the research I did. 700 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:29.039 Very early, like nineteen eighty two, eighty three, Hesiblah just beginning 701 00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:32.360 to come together, they did take a Soviet diplomat or Soviet citizen hostage in 702 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.599 Lebanon. And what happened, well, the Soviet KGB or whoever their overseas 703 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:42.679 operatives were, they went out, grabbed some senior hesbel leader, killed him, 704 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.920 mutilated him in ways I won't describe on this family rated show, and 705 00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:52.320 then sent his body back to Hesbela. The Soviet diplomat was promptly released and 706 00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:57.960 no more Soviet hostages were ever taken. Okay, nobody remembers now thirty some 707 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:01.239 years later, how we finally got our hostages out that Reagan didn't get out, 708 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:06.440 and we don't remember because the Bush administration, and one of the cleverer 709 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:10.559 things they did and otherwise Unclever administration was ignore them. They they just went 710 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:14.760 dark about the whole thing and pretty soon has realized they weren't going to get 711 00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:17.400 anything for them, and they were quietly released. It took a couple more 712 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:21.719 years into the Bush, the first Bush administration to do that. But that 713 00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:25.000 is a better I mean, I like the Roosevelt approach is the best. 714 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:29.440 But the other one is to say, and Israel, as you pointed out, 715 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.519 with that deal ten eleven years ago, with a thousand prisoners for one 716 00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:36.800 Israeli soldier who's been held for several years, and currently this means that we're 717 00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:40.280 going to be having Israelis taken hostage for as long as you can imagine. 718 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:44.840 And I'll just end by saying, I my mind runs back to hearing that 719 00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:47.800 and Yahoo in person in Washington back in I think twenty fifteen, and he 720 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:52.079 says quite often in the Middle East, the choices are not between good and 721 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:54.679 bad, but between bad and worse. Yes, and here's the one we 722 00:56:54.719 --> 00:57:00.960 have right now. So let me finish this segment by teasing Lucretia and setting 723 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:08.159 us up for next week claim that Lucretia has circled all the way around radicalism 724 00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:16.079 to end up where the neocons are and the only man eyes. Yeah, 725 00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:22.039 her eyes just expanded by fifty percent in size. And being one of the 726 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:27.480 original neo kon the o G neocons, I would say the reason why is 727 00:57:27.519 --> 00:57:34.039 because traditional conservatives realists would say we shouldn't take account of the nature of foreign 728 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:38.320 regimes when we decide to help them or not. This is the classic quote 729 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:42.960 from Kissinger, who is quoting Tallyrand, where they said, you know, 730 00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:46.440 nations have no friends, they just have interests. And so this was an 731 00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:52.760 actually important thing in the ragging years to say we may ally with authoritarianism authoritarian 732 00:57:52.760 --> 00:58:00.320 regimes because that's better to help them fight communists. This actually was something neo 733 00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:02.920 cons took into with neo cons actually very much believe, as I think I 734 00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:08.719 detected Lucretia and your comment Steve, that we should help democracies, we should 735 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:14.119 help nations whose values we agree with. We shouldn't treat all the countries as 736 00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:16.159 just billiard balls anyway. So I just want to throw that out there so 737 00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:21.119 that we can argue about it next week and close this out. We're going 738 00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:23.719 to close out the show actually because we're actually running on time, which only 739 00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:29.239 happens when I'm the host, by the way, you know, argreat that's 740 00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:31.400 no, no, that's actually the last issue we're going to talk about to 741 00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:37.000 and we'll finish out with the elections in Europe and Argentina. In Europe, 742 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:44.000 John, that's what's wrong with you, Neo constryophy. You spoke over me, 743 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:47.880 I said, and Latin America Europe you said Europe earlier, so it's 744 00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:51.800 going to say it then. So we remember when we call it Latin America, 745 00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:54.000 that implies that it's European in character. Right, That's true. That's 746 00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:59.480 the great that's the greatest thing colonialism has ever done. Make Latin America. 747 00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:04.000 And what you're make everybody speak Spanish, a language from an obscure, middling 748 00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:10.639 European country. So the two events I'm sure everybody knows about. First, 749 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:17.880 in the Netherlands, Geared Wilders of the Freedom Party won the most seats in 750 00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:24.000 the parliamentary elections and is in the lead to form a coalition government in which 751 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:30.159 he will be the Prime minister. People who haven't followed Dutch politics as closely 752 00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:35.039 as Steve has. Steve has a strange love of all things Dutch. Will 753 00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:42.000 note that Wilders aimed a prominence by demanding an end to immigration, banning the 754 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:47.119 Quran and prohibiting the construction of any new mosques, but demanding a return to 755 00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:52.760 basically making Holland great again. He was Trump before Trump. This guy. 756 00:59:53.280 --> 01:00:02.239 Then we have in Argentina the election of a libertarian. I don't even know 757 01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:07.239 if he's actually an economist. He's been mostly a He is an economist, 758 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:12.800 but has come to prominence mostly through radio and TV appearances. But is a 759 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:22.079 radical free market devote named Javier Milay who want to smashing smashing twelve point victory 760 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:29.719 over the economics minister from the paroonist incumbent party. So both places conservativism on 761 01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:35.400 the rise. Is this reflect Let's start with Lucretia. Is this reflect Strangely 762 01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:39.159 outside of America, actually conservative parties are doing well? And why is that? 763 01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:45.480 Or are these just blips? It might be because the less propaganda machine 764 01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:53.719 down in Argentina and Holland is not quite as quite as powerful. I also 765 01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:59.960 think that as much as we all for good reasons, despise parliamentary systems. 766 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:06.000 There is an opportunity in a parliamentary system to have something other than watered down, 767 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:10.400 mediocre messages with very little difference between them, you know. And I 768 01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:15.000 know that that's a little bit unfair to say about our current political situation, 769 01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:19.000 but I'm getting off on a tangent. Sorry, I'll go back to it. 770 01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:23.800 I I do think that it can start a sort of change in public 771 01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:30.559 sentiment. I mean, the guy in Holland, in the Netherlands, for 772 01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:35.559 I mean, he was so so vilified for so long. I mean, 773 01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:38.599 he was considered you know, yeah, he's beyond the pale. He was 774 01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:44.440 considered a cross between Papuchanan and David Duke put it in an American tri and 775 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:47.719 a good way to put it. And so the idea that he has risen, 776 01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:54.000 uh within within Dutch politics to a place where he could actually, you 777 01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:59.280 know, be considered even a viable candidate, much less a winning candidate, 778 01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:06.119 to me is a a sign that that most Europeans are done with this forcible 779 01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:16.559 integration immigration and integration non integration of Muslim immigrants from Muslim society is being forced 780 01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:22.039 into their society and ruining their culture. There are many other things to it 781 01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.079 too as well, the economic concerns, the crime concerns, and so on. 782 01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:28.280 I think that that's all a very good sign, whether that ever makes 783 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:30.840 it here. I just saw it really quickly. Sorry off topic again, 784 01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:37.400 but that Mayorca, I think was it the Herigg Institute, Steve that came 785 01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:44.079 out with a stolen document where Marijorca says that he has to that the agents 786 01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:52.039 need not need need to make sure that they call immigrants right. They can 787 01:02:53.559 --> 01:03:00.039 confirm what their desired pronouns are. And I forget who the represents, and 788 01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:02.519 it was who tweeted about it saying I think that their pronouns should that the 789 01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:09.239 only pronouns that the border patrol should be using r D and PORT. I 790 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:12.400 had to flow that out there, but I do want to and I'll shut 791 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:15.519 up to Steve, who actually has some knowledge about these things. I don't 792 01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:22.920 can speak, but I do want to say to quote from the Argentinian guy 793 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:28.480 from his very first speech, he said, I did not come here to 794 01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:31.519 guide lambs, I came here to awaken lions. And what I think the 795 01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:37.320 reason I mentioned that John is to call him just a libertarian I think is 796 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:43.480 a bit unfair. I don't have the highest opinion of libertarians because they they're 797 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:46.199 they're I agree with a lot of things, but they concentrate on the wrong 798 01:03:46.280 --> 01:03:52.000 stuff. This guy seems to get it. He's he understands the corruption of 799 01:03:52.039 --> 01:03:58.039 the people of the elites. He understands how they've dominated things and how their 800 01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:01.119 their only goal in life is just to keep the sheep down. So he 801 01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:03.719 he says, the sheep are not sheep after all. They want to be 802 01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:06.679 lions, and I came here to awaken them, and I like that. 803 01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:13.519 So I'm going to I'm going to annoy Lucretia by saying that the majorcas memo 804 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:16.760 saying use their proper pronouns was the best bit of mischief our team has managed 805 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:19.960 to insinuate yet, because I think an awful lot of people coming up from 806 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:25.480 a Latin America being asked what pronouns they want used and presented a list of 807 01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:28.480 forty seven options, We'll turn around and go back home, and realizing in 808 01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:31.159 America is insane. You knows that what people Sorry, Steve, I just 809 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:36.840 have to ask you quick and all that all of the people that among the 810 01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:42.639 trans people that the Pope invited to lunch. Wait wait, wait, wait, 811 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.639 what I missed this? Oh wait did you move? Did you already 812 01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:48.840 move forward to the babylon beheadline? No, this is this is absolutely true. 813 01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:53.280 I got a great value. My god. Oh yeah. So so, 814 01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:59.840 way back during COVID, the Pope call it adopted, became very close 815 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:04.239 this group of transsexual men who claim now to be women, invited them to 816 01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:11.119 the to the Vatican for this this big lunch where it's sort of the whole 817 01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:13.800 banquet. Nobody else would come so I and bring all the poor, but 818 01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:18.840 these transsexuals were invited that he's been their patron, I guess you could say 819 01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:26.239 since the middle of COVID. But he also said transsexuals can be baptized, 820 01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:30.039 they can be godparents. All this came out last week. I guess you 821 01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:35.119 guys don't pay attention because you're not Catholic. But they're all from from from 822 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:43.559 South and Latin America. Another great We're going to have to bracket that one 823 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:47.800 for next week too. But another thing about the greatness of the new Argentinian 824 01:05:47.800 --> 01:05:51.360 presidency. Doesn't like Pope Francis called him a grubby Marxist or something like that. 825 01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.039 Right, yeah, I love it so Steve, your thoughts on the 826 01:05:56.079 --> 01:05:58.119 other Yeah, well, I mean a couple of things. Yeah, I 827 01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:01.599 mean we made the general point. Some thing that I just discovered today is 828 01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:05.719 that Marine Le penn in France is leading in the opinion polls right now over 829 01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:11.360 Macron. That's never happened before. She's been steadily gaining for the last ten 830 01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:14.840 years and gotten closer to each election cycle, but it's now ahead. And 831 01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:17.440 the next door in Germany, the Alternative for Germany Party, that's one of 832 01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:20.360 those upstart parties who if you read the media, they are a bunch of 833 01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.519 crypto Nazis. They do have a few bad actors. I trust our pal 834 01:06:26.119 --> 01:06:30.639 Mario Fantini over in Vienna has got his finger on the pulse of that whole 835 01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:33.840 thing and says they got a few problems. But what the Western media says 836 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:36.920 is wrong. Okay. The point is you can see this happening everywhere, 837 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:42.039 and finally this news. Just in the last forty eight hours, you had 838 01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:46.280 an immigrant in Ireland stab five people, including three children. One child is 839 01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:50.119 still in critical condition in the hospital, and there have been riots which the 840 01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:57.119 media in Ireland and the politicians describe as the far right wing starting these riots. 841 01:06:57.159 --> 01:07:00.800 To burning buses, overturning police cars. I think those are the same 842 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:04.559 kind whom Steve sorry, I'm not familiar with. I you know, Irish 843 01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:09.920 citizens who are mad about high ebrate. Ireland has had an unbelievable amount of 844 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:12.960 foreign immigration in the last three four years. Half of it more than half 845 01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:18.400 of it Ukrainian refugees. Interestingly, but their their population of foreign born people 846 01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:23.360 is approaching twenty percent. I mean, that's an astonishing number. That would 847 01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:26.960 be something like, you know, thirty million hears whatever the math in Principia. 848 01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:30.559 Yeah, and so I don't know, you know, without being there 849 01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:32.000 and actually you know, being on the street and seeing who it is. 850 01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:34.840 My guess is this is the same kind of people who maybe are the soccer 851 01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:39.559 hooligans who riot, but who are those people in England and Ireland and got 852 01:07:39.559 --> 01:07:43.679 their working class people, the people who take the brunt of the problems of 853 01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:47.960 immigration, raising housing prices, putting Apparently in Ireland, if you're you know, 854 01:07:48.039 --> 01:07:51.519 a refugee, you get two hundred dollars a month per person from the 855 01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:57.039 Irish government as your payout. And so anyway, this is that would be 856 01:07:57.119 --> 01:08:00.280 one way to solve the homelessness crisis out here is to let people know that 857 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:02.119 yes, well, oh you know, I meant that I was going to 858 01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:04.280 stick this in at the beginning, so to come back when we started. 859 01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:10.199 I do remember briefly in the seventies when the American Indian Movement was the flavor 860 01:08:10.199 --> 01:08:12.159 of the month and I never really took off. But one of the things 861 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:15.880 they demanded, as I recall, was they wanted Alcatraz Island back because that 862 01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.439 had originally been an Indian sacred side or some darn thing. And I'm thinking, 863 01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:23.159 now, well, ay, we should either do that or be we 864 01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:26.720 should make Alcatraz the place where we moved the homeless in the Bay Area because 865 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.600 there's you know, there's all those facilities there, So why not. Like 866 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:34.000 I just I would like to vote and favor of one of our episodes in 867 01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:38.680 the coming weeks. During Christmas time, maybe there'll be a slow moment. 868 01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.159 I wouldn't mind having a discussion of what we should do with immigration, Like 869 01:08:42.159 --> 01:08:45.239 what would be a sensible immigration policy that the three of us might, if 870 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:48.199 possible, be able to agree on. Can I just say I saw a 871 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:54.520 meme this morning, probably in ste'se Week in Pictures John that said if if 872 01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:58.000 immigrants are our strength, why aren't they their strength in the country that they 873 01:08:58.039 --> 01:09:02.199 came from? Right? Yes, well you asked sensible questions like that. 874 01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:09.279 Okay, John, Let's bring it this episode to an end, and thanks 875 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:14.039 everybody for sharing part of your Thanksgiving holiday weekend with us. We hope you 876 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:17.560 enjoyed it as much as we did. Let's close out. I don't have 877 01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:24.119 a kamalism. Unfortunately, I have a true Kamala statement, which is even 878 01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:32.159 as the FBI director was testifying before Congress that anti Semitic events are reaching historic 879 01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:38.439 levels, even though, as we all know, Jews make up let's see, 880 01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:42.399 two point four percent of the population, but are the target of more 881 01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:46.239 than sixty percent of all hate crimes reported. What did Kamala Harris do? 882 01:09:46.520 --> 01:09:56.319 She rolled out and anti Islam, anti Muslim initiative and her she said her 883 01:09:56.399 --> 01:09:59.159 plan this is just a few week you just in the last two weeks. 884 01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:02.439 She said, her plan will aim to protect Muslims and those proceed to be 885 01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:06.399 Muslim from hate, bigotry, and violence, and to address the concern that 886 01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:13.479 some government policies may discriminate against Muslims because as a result of the Hamas terrorist 887 01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:17.199 attacks in Israel and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We have seen an uptick 888 01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:24.640 in anti Palestinian, anti Arab, anti Semitic, and Islamophobic incidents across America. 889 01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:30.319 I wish I could make that up. Yeah, there was a She 890 01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:36.079 tweeted out a picture of her and Joe Biden's boyfriend in front of their gas 891 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:40.800 stove, saying Happy Thanksgiving. Right, yes, yes, they are going 892 01:10:40.840 --> 01:10:44.279 to steal from the rest of us. Practical Yes, sorry, That's all 893 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:48.159 I've got on kemma, but apprecia. How about the latest Babylon b headlines? 894 01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:51.520 The latest so Steve wanted to make sure. Of course, I was 895 01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:59.760 going to say this one in incredible Black Friday sale Lockheed Martin offering two wars 896 01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:02.640 for the price of one. Hey, that's a good deal, sign me 897 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:10.640 up. In response to it was a Babylon Bee but based on a true 898 01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:15.079 story. Man pretending to be women excuse me, men pretending to be women 899 01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:18.840 go to lunch with men pretending to be Catholic And it's a picture of the 900 01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:27.640 po and the bus full of transsexuals, transgenders, whatever they are. Yeah, 901 01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:30.840 to admit, that's pretty good. So for those of you who do 902 01:11:30.960 --> 01:11:33.079 have a teenage son, or had a teenage son. So what's for dinner 903 01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:42.760 as teen boy immediately after eating fifty thousand calorie Thanksgiving meal at three pm? 904 01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:50.039 That's probably you, John? Do you like? Biden administration says cost of 905 01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:58.399 Thanksgiving dinner is down as long as you don't buy anything. Well, that's 906 01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:00.319 the one I saw. I don't think it was Babylon being the one that 907 01:12:00.359 --> 01:12:03.560 said, Look, you know, under Trump your car could hold thirty five 908 01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:06.720 dollars worth of gasoline, but now your car can hold ninety dollars worth of 909 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:12.880 gasoline. See how things are better. That's about how economically literate these people 910 01:12:12.880 --> 01:12:17.079 are. Okay, So let's close out in the traditional way. Always drink 911 01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:24.039 your whiskey meat. Let's go Brandon and Steve, God save the queen man. 912 01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:38.840 Am I very too high behind the glass from mine and stair? Am 913 01:12:38.880 --> 01:13:03.199 I very too wandering the fear of an e? Am I very load? 914 01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:13.600 To try to close my ears to the sound D play soundload? Am I 915 01:13:14.039 --> 01:13:36.399 very The happiness machine is trying hard to sing my side. Ricochet join the conversation.