It's just like the old radio show with the addiibility to swear a lot from
the mac of All Trade Studio in Fairport and driven by Victor Chrysler Dods G.
Bram. It's bilified the Bill Morand podcast. Well, hello and welcome.
Thanks for getting your pawn on, Thanks for telling a friend. That's
how we spread the word about the pirate ship. Today, somebody with more
titles than I think I've ever seen, or more initials next to their name.
Robert Rice is PhD, LMHC. I'm not sure what that is.
Licensed Mental Health counsel okay, Professor and Chair of Mental Health Counseling Program h
r S A HERSA. That's a hers gree Okay. So it's a health
Resources service organization okay. And then b h w ET. Yeah, it's
Behavioral Health, Wellness, Education and Training, Integrated Care Project Director Saint John
Fisher University. Your mom has to be so proud she uh yeah, she's
she's Italian, okay, and uh and so she's always been pretty proud of
and kind of a mama's boy. Oh there you go. My sister has
a PhD. And I know my mom was like thrilled when she got her
PhD, but that was in linguistics. Yours is in mental health. Well,
my mom really wanted me to be to get my m d, so
actually she was disappointed when I told her I was getting my PhD. Really
for sure? Did you then go and psychoanalyze and figure out why she wanted
that more than anything else. Part of the reason why I wanted to get
my PhD was so that I could figure out, you know, her and
my family and everything and then what messed me up so much. That's pretty
funny. You have a book it's called Video Games and Psychotherapy, and it's
interesting because you wrote in the preface of the book that you got your first
gaming console in nineteen eighty six. It was the Nintendo system that I think
a lot of us had, and how you became obsessed with the game,
playing it for what the ninety four hours straight or something. Legend is Zelda,
and that how sometimes the gaming music brings you back. And music to
me is always connected to memories, right, we all have that, and
it brings us back back to a happier time. But I was when I'm
reading the book and stuff. I always think when it comes to education,
and I spent more time on the chapter with kids who would be autism spectrum
disorder. I think I was chapter six in the book. And when I'm
looking through there, I feel like in the education system, and I'll be
very interested in your opinion that we get it wrong. Now, my dad
philosophy was his big thing, but he was a sixth green English teacher,
and his thing was always try to meet the kids where they are. And
I don't feel like that's something that happens. And it was really interesting to
me to read, in particular that chapter on ASD. You know, autism
spectrum disorder and kids and how you integrated the gaming. But it was so
cool because you met the kid where the kid was. So for example,
there's a young man that you talk about in the book who was obsessive compulsive
in addition to being autism spectrum and a lot of these co exists right the
Venn diagram will see the co existing circles and things. And this kid would
shower for an hour, he'd being there an hour, and his parents were
losing their mind or more right. And I'm sure I mean, if you
take a hot, steamy shower and you're you're gonna have paint peeling. You're
gonna have chips in the ceiling because it's just too much steam for too long
in the shower, and then you're not gonna have any hot water, and
there's laundry that can't be done, and the bill goes up. And so
there's all those practical things that we all kind of know about, and yet
we have somebody where the water feels good and you know, they're a little
different, and you were able to take and they tried a timer, right,
So they set a timer, and then the kid would get pissed off
when they'd been banging on the door because the timer went off and he wasn't
able to make the connection. And you met this kid where he was in
the gaming world. He was a gamer, and you said, apply,
make your shower a video game and in that time and he went through and
you applied the different music, what music will be playing, because he was
a big Mario Brothers. And I go that to me is it's an overused
term, but it's brilliant and so simplistic, right because but for so long
we're trying to take somebody and force them to do what we want them to
do, instead of trying to meet them where they are, because nobody wants
to upset anybody else. I really believe that. I think that most people
don't want to be I don't know, not not necessarily, I say,
on the spectrum disorder, but they don't want to upset anybody. But they
want to be able to be free and do what they want. Sure.
And yet at the same time, there's great satisfaction in feeling as though there's
approval, right and somebody, and I go, boy, that that's an
amazing thing. And I feel like we get that wrong in life, especially
with kids. I agree, Yeah, I agree. And with this gentleman.
It was a process, right. We started because we weren't sure if
it was an obsessive, compulsive process or if he was really more being soothed
by the water in the shower, you know, more small sensory stuff for
sure, right, yeah, exactly. Uh. And and what we learned
really was he just wasn't very good at telling time. You know, he
really did get a lot of sensory input from the shower. U And once
we asked him those questions about you know, what would your shower be like
if it were a video game? You know, he just lit up right,
you know, well the beginning, you know, the water would be
lava and the soap would be umpas and gumpas, and you know you're going
through all the different Mario characters. And and uh, we decided might be
worth a try to come up with an audio file for his for his shower.
So was there real music that played or was this just kind of in
his head? Real music he real minus before that he'd pressed when he goes
to the shower, gotcha, and it would start with like regular Mario music.
And he said that when he was starting a shower, you know,
he'd have the regular Mario music in the background, and then when there was
about ten minutes left on his shower before he was supposed to get out,
it would go to the speed up Mario music. So you know, if
you were played Mario Brothers before, you can like power up and music gets
really fast and everything gets gets faster, and so that music would come on.
And then he kind of mixed it up and said that once he got
out of the shower and he was going to brush his teeth, that it
was going to be Donkey Kong for some reason, but for him that worked
great. And uh, and the kids started hitting the thirty minute mark exactly
one, you know, a thirty minute mark two the second. Yeah,
where did the idea for you come from? So? I used to work
prior to working at San John Fisher University, I ran a clinic through through
Easter Seals for people with both of um all disabilities and mental illness. My
dissertation focused on autism and OCD and kind of the differences and similarities between the
different types of repetitive behavior and those different diagnoses. And so when I was
working at Easter Seals as the director, I also was seeing clients and I
learned pretty quickly that most of my clients, who most of them were younger
males because the prevalence ratio for autism is four to one males, they were
all, for lack of a better word, preoccupied with video games. That's
all they wanted to talk about. And so I, through that process,
you know, learned a little bit more about their games. You know,
at that point, I'm actually not a gamer. This game book isn't written
for gamers. This book is written for primary primarily clinicians, but you know
parents too, yea, mostly from a non gamer perspective, But how to
connect with people using video games, which is so interesting to so many you
know, not just people with autism, but you know, all young people
writing in number one media. So in doing this work at Easter Seals,
I worked with a number of great people, one of them doctor Laurence Sugarman,
who's over at He was my older boys pediatrician. Yes, yeah,
in the beginning, and then he went more behavioral. You got it,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I hired him over at Easter Seals and worked
with him for a while and I got to learn a lot from him about
biofeedback and some of those things. And he was over at RI at the
time. I believe he still is. And I told him about an idea
I had for a video game that kids would play that would help teach them
cognitive behavior therapy skills for working through different types of repetitive behaviors. And and
so he helped me take that to the game design studio over there. Stephen
Jacobs, Professor Jacobs, who's in the game design program over our et liked
the idea and that begame. That started a fifteen year process of doing some
research and hiring students and developing different games and apps and things like that,
we've been doing this for fifteen years. The yeah, yes, yeah,
And actually what I learned more from developing these games than anything is that you
almost don't need to develop the games. Yeah, the games are there,
and if you learn how to connect with kids and people through those metaphors,
you almost don't need to develop the develop something. That's sort of what I
was thinking as you're speaking, I'm going, okay, But so what you're
doing, though, is taking this idea. That's where they feel probably the
freest, right. They're making the decisions inside the game. Nobody's telling them
how to do it. And there are consequences to the game. Right if
I fall off the thing, or I get run over by or I get
hit by the turtle. I don't want to every game with it, but
those consequences, which sometimes are hard to make that connection outside into real life.
Right, if I do this, you know, they just simply as
I touch a hot stove, I take my handback. Right. But I
think then when you're able to make that connection and say, hey, it's
just like that, life is like a video game. Boy, what a
great way to connect. I'm surprised no one has ever done that, prior.
Yeah, it's I was surprised too. Yeah, you know, I'm
saying that's why I ended up writing the book. You know, there was
a author, Anthony Bean, who wrote a book Four Clinicians, that talks
about the different archetypes and things like that in video games that can be used
in therapy. But there'd never been a book before that really looked at kind
of practically using you know, video games and video game meta metaphors and therapy,
and so yeah, I was. I was surprised too. And for
me, one of the first questions I'll ask my clients when they when I
see them, as if your life were a video game, Yeah, you
know, and you were they they avatar the hero, right, and the
problem usually anxiety or OCD or something like that, were the We're the big
boss. Then what would that look like? And we start drawing it out,
We start drawing out there. What's the average age of your client anywhere
from six to twenty three, twenty four? Okay, so mostly juvenile mostly
mostly yeah, yeah, and then the older on the older end of that,
are they most of them on the autism spectrum disorder or most of my
older clients definitely, you know, it would have met criteria for ASPER years
back when that was a diagnosis. Now, why is that not anymore?
Yeah? So so well that that changed in twenty thirteen with the DSM four
going to the DSM five, and uh, part of it was, I
think to make it a little more exclusive. The you know, the the
op WDD in the in the state was really having a hard time determining who
should be eligible for services. So that that was part of the process,
and I think we have learned more about it. Yeah, as you know
that. I think the prevalence right now is eighty eight and one in every
eighty No, it's more way more than one, one in every thirty six
they say, now it was one in eighty eight. Started is autism or
aspers probably autism spectrum discs? So yeah, one one in thirty six children
maybe he's born these days, you know, would be diagnosed with an autism
spectrum disorder. Do we as you know, being around that and having studied
for so, I'm thinking that you probably have twenty years of dealing working with
children. Yeah, yeah, yeah, twenty five twenty five years, so
in that I often think like do we handle it wrong? You know,
you get this diagnosis as a parent, and it's scary, you know what
I mean. And and I remember, I think it was doctor Sugarman handed
me an article and it was about you you plan this trip, right,
so you're taking the birth of your child and yeah, and you're and you
think you're gonna go to Italy and you've studied the language and you learn the
customs and you do all of this stuff, and then all of a sudden
the day comes for your trip and you're rerouted to Holland and you don't know
the language, and you don't know the customs and you don't know. And
that's what it's like having a child on the autism spectrum. And I think,
yeah, there's overwhelming, and then there's so much information and sometimes and
I don't know, but having lived through some things, and again, experience
is the greatest teacher, right, Uh, words don't teach is my big
thing. Experience is really your big teacher. And I think that sometimes maybe
where we get so involved and we try so hard to take something that we
believe is imperfect and try to make it perfect for the world, and it's
perfect the way it is. And if you just step back and kind of
let water seek its own level, things will be okay. I'm not saying
that services don't help. I'm not saying services don't help everybody. I just
think that sometimes we get so like, you know, we gotta fix this,
well, we don't even know what's wrong. Yeah, right. There's
so many parents whose you know, identity becomes about getting services for their kids,
and it's it's so then what you miss is the kid. You're right,
and so you miss that stuff, kid being pulled out of class five
times a day when they really don't need those services. They'd be better off
in class anyway. I mean I exactly right, and the disruption and you're
the different kid, and you're all that stuff. And I remember with one
of my sons who was diagnosed more ass burgers now twenty two, has pushed
himself. It just got a forklift certified at his job. And there's been
a waiter which was social interactions. There was always the inferential language problems.
Like I remember saying to him as a kid, wow, you're really sharp,
and he kind of looked at me puzzled and said, dad, knives
are sharp, yep, not people, And I go, okay, got
it. Uh, that's one of the benefits of using games and therapy too,
those types of metaphors. I mean, if someone is smart and they
can choose a knife to represent that intelligence in the game, right because knives
are sharp and that helps make that connections. Yes, yes, yes,
see. I think all this stuff is like, it's so and I don't
mean to to use this word necessary, but it's simple and and and perfect
at the same time. Right. Sometimes I feel like we overcomplicate for too
many things, and we gotta get sensory, and you gotta get to this,
and you gotta get hold on a second, you know, try to
take a breath, heater and and and for so many years we didn't have
it. So people go, well, what happened to the people that would
be Did aspergers or autism just pop up? Is there an increase in it?
I don't know. Is there a better way to diagnose it? Probably
yep. I would think that that would be more than some stuff. Has
the environment changed? Possibly? Are there things in diet and stuff? I
guess I don't know. We don't. That's not my I tell many of
my students when I teach my class on it. So I generally in the
I teach all the child and family classes that the mental health program at Future
and generally when I teach about autism, one of the first things I the
first things I teach them is if you if I've met one person with autism,
I've met one person with autism. That's a great thing to say,
because everybody's very different, for sure, I mean all of us are very
different, but that in particular, You're right, you can't. There isn't
one blanket form, right. If I'm building a wall, it's the same
thing everywhere I go. I'm sixteen on center with my beams, and this
is it. It isn't that way with human beings, and it's not that
way with a diagnom. We're still trying to figure out if it's really should
be a category as of it inspire all the changes, you know, and
and the Asperger's not being a thing anymore, right right? Uh? And
then the next thing I tell them is, uh, you know, I
wouldn't say this usually to a parent of someone with child with autism, who's
really struggling, who's really causing a lot of behavioral issues and things like that.
But my opinion, and this is just an opinion based on my experience,
and the incredible strengths I've seen in so many of my clients is that
this could be evolution. Uh, you know, the you know the strengths
of so many people with autism just seemed to fit so much better with where
the world and with where society is going in terms of being you know,
good at technology and detail oriented and things like that. I don't know that
social skills are as important as they used to be. Oh no, we
lost that. We lost that. That's that's a really uh a cool observation
that you're making. And I learned to Saint John Fisher that an opinion is
halfway between fact and fiction, right, So it's based in some fact,
and I think that that is something to to seriously consider. I don't know
that any opinion maybe better than another, but it's certainly something that's I mean,
boy, they're sure seems to be evidence to point to your I would
even call it a theory more than an opinion. It's no less valid than
uh, you know, plastics or vaccines. Right. Yeah, that's where
we're at right now and need to have ideas and think about them and hopefully
in time we'll figure it out. Yeah, it's well, I really found
that kind of interesting. And I even saw when you were talking about with
people with obsessive compulsive disorder, I think it was and you gave them and
I hope I get the analogy right. The RIDE method, yep, yeah,
that's actually was originated by Oriente Pento Wagner, who came through the u
of R. She was I advised my dissertation. She wrote a book called
the Uh well she Up and Down the Worry Hill was the name of the
book. Okay, you made me feel extremely smart because I have this theory
that the Ride method was basically, well, explain what it is. Sure,
Sure, it's it's a approach to cognitive behavior therapy for helping people with
OCD, you know, work through the anxiety associated with OCD, right,
right, And so the idea is, and you know, people think of
you, we hear CBT, and we think it's so complicated and it's such
a Really, isn't all CBT is is, you know, teaching yourself to
identify certain irrational thought patterns, like you know, all are nothing thinking things
like that, and then ask yourself certain questions to help you know, inform
with decisions and be in how to change your behavior right, And so RIDE
is an acronym to help people remember one specific way of doing that for OCD.
UH, the R stands for rename the thought, which you know,
again it's really very much in line with using metaphors and video games and things
like that in the psychotherapy too. Is you know, we can rename this
OCD or for most of my clients they've renamed it, you know, the
shadow Man of Fear or mister Boogeyman, or you know the worry monster.
You know, everyone has a different name for you know, their diagnosis when
they come into my office. So rename it. Recognize this is successive.
This isn't something that I need to be doing right now. You know,
I'm going to rename this right and this that also is helpful for parents,
right because now parents are renaming it, and you know, they're uniting with
the child against the problem instead of looking at the child is the problem?
Right? And I actually encourage people to look away and imagine that that character
is sitting there with you in the room, you know, and look at
the character with the child and say, okay, this is OCD or this
is the worry monster. Right? How are you know how are we going
to deal with this? Right? What are we going to do this time?
What is the worry monster telling you? Once you've you know, renamed
it. The next letter and ride is I. And so that's when you
would insist that you're in charge, and that basically means, Okay, I'm
not going to let the worry monster tell me what to do this time,
right, And then it's defy the OCD. And that's that's where a lot
of people get this wrong. Some people think that when you're trying to deal
with this type of you know, symptom that or this type of repetitive behavior,
that the goal is to not do it. It's you know, the
goal is to just ignore it or not do it. And actually that's not
the approach for working through these types of things. The goal is to do
the opposite. So if OCD is telling you I need to hit this table
three times or something bad will happen, but you know that, you know,
OCD really really doesn't like this other number, right, Like, so
maybe six is a number that OCD doesn't like, but OCD really likes the
number three. Then defying the OCD or doing the opposite would be hitting the
table six times instead of three times when OCD tells you hit it three times,
right, And so sometimes you just prove that nothing's going to happen pretty
much. Yeah. So so sometimes you know, doing this looks almost weirder
than doing what OCD is telling you to do, because you know you're you're
trying to actually do the opposite. And then the e is enjoy your success,
right, because the goal at that point is you know, this is
hard work, right, and and we need to make sure that that's actually
built into it so that in particular, children realize that there's something in this
forum. So so I I have a theory, and as I read that,
I go, well, yeah, that makes of course that makes sense
because any take it away from obsessive, compulsive, or any kind of disorder
that has a label and just give it to the human beings. Every one
of us per separate on something, right, there's something that's bothering us.
We wake up in the morning, we check our email, and now we're
spun out for the day because something came down. And I always think your
job, as the real work isn't the grind of what you do every day,
but it is to go for the better feeling thought right so and and
self soothing, which is exactly what I thought of when I when I read
that about the acronym ride right trying to so go for the better feeling,
thought, well, I got this this person and sent me this nasty email,
and I'm very upset about it, but you know, I'll step away.
But here's what's going. Well, these other people really like me this
is and try to focus there and somehow and I don't know how all that
other and forgive me shit goes away. It just seems to okay, but
it takes. It takes. It takes. Your podcast, well, I
swear all the time. I think the opening just said we swear a lot
more than rating. I think I swear in the book actually a couple of
times. Oh so I in there. I'm just thinking, like, I
think that's a great method for everybody, because we can all let something ruin
our day. And you know, I used to have this thing with my
kids when we were when they were little, and uh, I would always
say things like they couldn't find something, like we would find one show not
the other. And I remember one sort of losing my mind and I go,
you know what, I always figure and I held my hands. I
got about this much time on the planet and I don't want to spend it
looking for my keys. So you know what I do. I hang up
my keys, you know I do. I put my stuff where I know
it's going to be. That kind of thing. And I think some as
simple as some of these methods are, it just makes your It makes your
day better. Make I mean, just think about when you're you can't find
your keys, you start to panic. Now you're late, now this and
it becomes a momentum and it goes away. And if you can get out
ahead of stuff and also reframe your thoughts, it's perfect. Because I do
find out. And I don't know how you feel about this, but I
think telling somebody to think positively is impossible. Oh if if you can't,
Yeah, if you calm down too, Like you tell somebody to calm down
and they calm down, that's the first time anyone's ever calmed down being when
they were told to calm down in history, right. And I always think
that you've got to climb the emotional scale and that anger is better than despair
and even there and you just keep kind of going up until you start to
just feel better. And once you start feeling better, everything goes Wow.
You should come back to Fisher and go to the graduate program and counseling becoming
you could be a therapist. You can do that, but it took me
a long time to figure that stuff out. Now, why don't we take
a moment, because I do have some questions then about therapy. I'd also
like to find out a little bit more about your background. But when you
say a therapists, did you do mostly talk therapy with patients primarily? But
yeah, because I work with kids, there's you know, well that's a
little mixed up. Yeah, that's a little different. Yeah, I think
and family therapy and family therapy, which I think is also some good stuff.
I have a theory about therapy that will I will say to you,
I don't know that you're gonna I'm actually really interested to hear what you have
to say. Well, this isn't even I don't even think you'd find it
defensive. I think it's something that you probably people may have said before.
But we'll get to that next. But first, Cobblestone on Maine. You're
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com. Paul O'Connors and Fairness at two six two comp Today comedy at the
Carlston welcomes back the extremely funny Rich Voss I Love Rich. He's got a
great podcast he's been doing for god over a decade now with its wife called
by Wife Hates Me His wife is the very funny Bonnie McFarland, and together
they do a great job. Rich has been everywhere. He's been on Tough
Crowd. He used to be on The O and A Show, Last Comic
Standing back when it was actually a big show in the heyday of that show.
Rich is hilarious. He's a muscie. Find out ticket information at Carlson
Comedy dot com. Now I know who's there at to you in the morning.
Well, I guess that you've got done because you're here standing in the
driveway thinking I'm readbound. Hunt. You know this thing we've got's becomes so
damn this front. Shut up. You only seem to want me when you're
drunk as come and looking. Boy, get you over that heartbreak. Hunt
this time. Know that dog won't hunt, cause every time you want all
along, it's all you show up, go home, you drunk. Now
there's a line coming up. I talked about this song yesterday. I couldn't
remember who sang it. It's Brandy Clark and I'm tired. So maybe there's
a Cab Morville that you could you and you Stone's learn say and then I
don't know. No, I really don't care if. Okay, there it
is. I really don't care if you're hung. And I'm driving and I'm
listening to, uh, the Margaritaville station with Jimmy Buffett station, and I'm
hearing this song. It's I. I guess it came out twenty fifteen something
like that. And I don't know Brandy Clark from anything, but I go,
a, this song is kind of funny and it's relatable, I think
for a lot of people. And then I go, did she say I
don't care that you say you're hung? Thinks? I go, I gotta
go find the song and I couldn't find it. So last night I was
here late. I go, I'm gonna find this damn song, and I
found it, and so there it is, and I'll probably play it again
on the podcast. And it's called It's Brandy Clark. You're drunk? All
right, You're drunk. So it's pretty simple. Uh. Did you ever
work with adults in terms of for first psychotherapy in anyway? It's part of
my doctoral internship. I did some work with adults. I spent an an
entire internship with adults with traumatic brain injury. Okay, so you were more
specified in your field. Where did the PhD come from? You are?
You have are okay? So are you a Rochester guy? I am?
So you grew up here. I went to McQuaid, okay, and then
I went to the U of R for bachelor's, master's and PhD. So
I was at from two thousand or times sorry, nineteen ninety four to two
thousand and nine. Wow. Yeah, it's like a twenty year run.
It was a while. Yeah, all on loans. I just got I
was just gonna say, boy, they they got a nice chunk of change
out of you. Thank God for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan. But
what a great institution, right, I mean, it's unbelievable. You have
are really And I think sometimes because of where we are geographically, doesn't that
necessarily get the love it should in terms of nationally. But maybe I'm wrong.
I don't. Actually I think that it might be. It might almost
be. The appisde Really. I think people outside of here I really appreciate
it more than we do here because of the level of the research and yeah,
and the level of the education there and say, yeah, I loved
it. I was in a fraternity, I had a bunch of fun.
I made all the mistakes and then you know, turned it around and did
what I had to do the junior and senior years so that I could,
you know, get where I am. Yeah, well that's great. So
here's my theory. I said to you that I had a theory. I
sometimes, and I've done talk therapy myself, and sometimes when I look at
things and maybe I'm wrong and maybe I didn't use it necessarily correctly. I
did have one gentleman I really liked and all, but I sometimes feel like
when we talk about whatever the problem is, we say stuck in the problem
and not necessarily the solution, and that sometimes these therapy sessions become bitch sessions,
right, so we're talking about you know this, that and the other
thing instead of applying some kind of thing. And that's where I found like
your book, Well, yeah, this is interesting. You took a kid
just as an example and applied the video game music theme because that was really
where his interests lied and we're able to get him to I mean, you
saved his parents. They should give you what they're saving in the water bill,
you know what I mean? The kid who took the shower. So
I'm like that kind of stuff happens. But a lot of times, I
think for adults, everyday adults, we got a lot of stressors. There's
a lot of this stuff that I think that we wind up almost pitching in
these and not necessarily using it. And I go, boy, I don't
know how therapists who do this day after day after day can hear over and
over. It's almost got to become like Charlie Brown's parents at some point.
Wa wa wah, here we go again. Yeah, yeah, well,
and I wouldn't be good at that. It's not the type of therapy I
I do. I do what's called narrative therapy. And that's really you know,
you know that's there's so many different approaches to psychotherapy, right, and
so you know it's not all one thing. You know, some people have
more of a problem based approach, which means, you know, they're interested
in, you know what what caused the problem? You know, how can
we resolve the problem? Right, which is you know, insurance companies really
like that, sure, and and then there's other well you forget that there
is a business model to this too. That's the other side. I mean,
I just popped into my head as you said it. Now which is
unfortunate and a little bit I mean in luck, Yeah it is. And
so you know, Pete, there's workarounds and things like that, and you
write down when you have to write down for the insurance companies, and yes,
you do what you have to do for the person. Uh. But
but again the answer to your question is there's different approaches to the psychotherapy.
I'm a I do what's called narrative narrative therapy or collaborative therapy, and so
I'm not interested in, uh, you know, what caused the problem.
We actually don't even talk about the problem all that much in my sessions.
We're more interested in what's it going to look like when when it's better?
Right? You know that magic? I think that's the greatest answer. And
then, uh, what's getting in the way? You know, that's the
closest we get to talking about the problem is is you know what's getting in
the way? What's your resistance? A problem is a constraint, right,
it's not it's a it's a and uh, you know, and we typically
would then externalize that problem, right. We want the person to see that
is something that's not part of themselves, but something that they can deal with.
And and other people around them can unite with them to deal with UH.
And then you know it. Really it's a it's about achieving this two
will pass type attitude. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I have a friend
who says that all the time, and it's it's their mom has always said
to them, this two show pass. And even if it's going to pass
like a kidney stone, this two show pass, right, it will.
Emotions are like stubbing your toe. You know nothing, you can't think about
anything else in that moment that hurts like hell, but you know, five
minutes later it's gone and right. And emotions are essentially the same way.
And I've had a chance to do some really amazing work with an Indian healer,
doctor deep from from India over the past year. I met him at
a Harvard conference last summer, and he asked me when he came to visit
Saint John Fisher in November, what's one thing you can say to me that
would make me happy when I'm sad or sad when I'm happy. Uh.
And actually, at the time, we were meeting with some of my mentors
and we all took a guess at what that could be, and we were
all wrong, he said, He said, this too will pass, right
if it's if I'm you know, happy, and I think to myself,
will pass if I'm sad then right and uh and so yeah, I think
it's more, you know, in my opinion and and other people who practice
the type of therapy that I practice, it's more about achieving an attitude towards
life and an attitude towards you know, how to to go through life and
achieve your goals, as opposed to you know, how can I solve all
these problems? And why? Why is? Why is my life the way
it is? Okay? So, as you're saying this, I always and
I have three sons, and there's always something happened. I used to when
they were grown up by Jay Crew, the Jay Crew. I used to
always, uh joke that it was like living in a frat house because someone
was always walking around without a shirt on. Someone was probably throwing up,
and someone was breaking something. Right, it was. And I say to
my sons who are older now, my older ones are twenty two and twenty
one, and in particular the twenty one year old, and I'll always say,
uh, sort of along those lines. Life is never gonna stop coming
at you. Let it happen. But but what you have to do is
get yourself so you just feel good all the time. So even when you're
doing it and I and that's what I kept thinking, Like, as you're
doing the music with the kid in the shower, the problem is that he's
in there forever and like I said, there can be I mean, long
showers are wonderful, but if you're not fully tiled and you've got drywall on
there and stuff, you're gonna have some problems after a while, you know
what I mean, especially problems. Yeah, no proper ventilation. I mean,
like it's not industrial ventilation. You go to a gym that, yeah,
you could be in there for an hour and no no real damage.
But you do it at home and it starts to You'll see if you have
wallpaper and there, it'll start peeling in the corners and it starts a crack.
So now you've got this kid, though, who you're making it better
because you've turned it into something that he could relate to and be a game.
Well what changed and the parents aren't coming at him anymore. They got
the goal they wanted. It's the same thing I think for adults in life,
life's going to keep coming at you. It's kind of how you react
to it. And I think most life has lived in our head for sure.
Yeah. Actually, that same kid, he had a job at I
saw, yeah convent, right convent which Wegman's runs. Okay, I didn't,
which I didn't realize there was such a thing, but there's this Wegman's
run convent supposedly, and uh, you know, he worked in the cafeteria
picking up plates after the nuns, and he hated it because every time he'd
go and he'd pick up a plate, he'd bring it back to the washer
and then new more nuns would come in and they'd fill it up again.
And it just felt tedious and unfulfilling because he never felt you know, it
was just getting you know, it's the opposite of mowing your lawn. Right
as you mow your lawn, the lawn grows, you know, behind you
immediately. And uh. And so he decided he was going to turn that
into a game of man, and the nuns were going to be ghosts and
the plates were gonna be pellets. Uh, and that he had we came
up with all these rules where you know, if he touched a nun,
then you know he had to go back to the start and uh, you
know, if he got there were certain types of plates that that gave him
special powers where he could go and he could you know, chat with the
nuns during that time and he could uh and and ever since that point he
uh became employee of the month, felt great about himself. Or really it
was just a different way of looking at things in his mind. As you
were saying, well, I think like you go to a party and uh,
you know, you could go in there and leave and go. Man,
that was a wild party. Man. People were swimming naked in the
pool and all this, and I could be at the same part and go,
Man, that sucked. These people were idiots, they were drunk,
they were obnoxious. This one was jumping into pool, took us clothes off.
Right, It's the same thing. Two different perspectives. And I think
a lot of times we we live up in our head. And and also
you know, to your idea with with the Indian Healer of this two show
pass and this two show pass, I've often said, and I don't like
this thought, but it's sort of real. Things are never as good as
you think. They are, and they're never as bad as you think they
are. They're somewhere in the middle, and it's like a Bill season.
Yeah man, yeah right, exactly so, and that's where I you know,
so, I sometimes think with the talk therapy was you felt like you
just kept repeating the problem. And when your mind is stuck in the problem
and you're talking about it over and over and over again, you don't get
out of it necessarily. Where if I like the idea of applying something to
where you you know what I'm saying, like you think this way or change
the thought, or could you look at it from this perspective and will that
be a little bit better? Or Okay, that's not going well? What
is going well? You know, because if you have four things going well
and one thing that isn't going very well, and you focus on what's not
going well. I'm a big believer in energy and stuff, everything starts to
fall the ship. But if you focus on everything that's going well over here,
somehow that too comes along because you just have a different approach. It's
almost like an athlete being in the zone, right an athlete in the zone,
you know, I mean, there was a great there was a game
last night, I think it was. It was Houston and I don't know
who they were playing, and they were Houston was down. I think it
was six to three. There were twice, or at least once in this
long at bat where I think there was bases loaded, two outs, full
count. The guy hits the ball, it goes back into the catcher's glove.
He squeezes too hard and the ball pops out. Would have been an
owl, would have been an oul. It's not next pitch, Grand Slam.
They win the game. Right, So you're in that zone, right,
everybody wants to be that guy. We were all that guy in our
backyard. But that guy has to be on cloud nine today, right,
But had he gotten out and the same at bat, he wouldn't probably be.
You gotta go to try to be on cloud nine as much as you
can because everything will start going. Well. Yeah, it's just my theory
on things. It's not a theory. It's me that's backed up by research.
So again, and I encourage you to maybe consider becoming a therapist because
you're doing a great job. I don't want to do that. Yeah,
I wouldn't mind doing the skills. And then yes, you can therapize people.
You know what, Honestly, I wouldn't mind that. I've often thought,
here's the thing, like, I, okay, here, here's a
great one. Us talk about this. This stuck of the problem, and
it just popped into my head when you're talking about this. I always wanted
to be on the radio as a kid. I bought FM wireless microphones.
But none of my friends were into this, so I kept it secret,
like I didn't tell any of my buddies. But I would broadcast my sister
brother and sister. I would take commercials off the radio. I had two
microphones, so I had one. I would play music and I would do
all this stuff, and then I'd run upstairs and go, did you hear
me? Do you hear me on the radio? Well? Then I get
on the radio and I'm nineteen and I'm doing overnights, and I was doing
it, supposed to do it just for the summer. It was in between
my junior and senior year at Fisher, and I wound up taking the year
off and staying on overnight's midnight to six on this FM station. And I
realized quickly that I got bored. I got really bored doing just the music.
Like after a while, so I started doing things like who's up in
why at three o'clock in the morning, and I would take calls and there
was always this one guy and he would call all the time for almost six
months straight about how his girlfriend broke up with him, he can't sleep,
blah blah blah and all this stuff. And I remember thinking like, how
do you help this guy? And how do I make it interesting? Because
it was the same thing almost night after night after night, And I remember
once I was it was awful, but I was nineteen that thought it was
funny. I played Everybody's hurt because you would take the phone calls and then
playing better. So I played everybody hurts underneath them yep. And then so
that's playing, and then right in the middle of the conversation a gunshot and
then a dial tone. You're kidding me. Well, he didn't do it.
I did it, so yeah, so you see, I can't be
a therapist. So but no, he was fine. Well he never called
again after that, really, I don't think. But in that idea of
there was always a piece of me, like I hate to admit this,
but I've been told by many people I am very sensitive, you know what
I mean, I am. I did as I did for years because I
think it was always like okay, but here we go. Here it comes
really deep psychologic psychological stuff that I've realized about myself over the years. Uh,
low self esteem all my life, low self esteem felt like I was
always in trouble, and probably for a good reason, but I was always
kind of on the edge. And I think that I was always under suspicion,
even for shit that I didn't do. But and that was like as
a kid grown up, school was okay, I didn't you know, I
didn't do badly. I just I mean, if I showed up, I
was probably going to get an eighty five. Right. That was about about
my thing without doing much work. I don't think I ever did all work
to anything throughout high school and stuff. And then I get to I was
going to go to college, and the only thing I really had were some
decent essay T scores because then some of my grades had kind of fallen off
and this and that, and so my old man's like, look, you
get one shot on my dime. Well, everywhere I applied to I got
in, but I got in under the Austin the idea that you would take
a summer class to prove that you could handle college level work. My father's
like, you are going to drink your way out. So there was always
that theory, right, you had that in your head of you. So
what I and then as a child, and I've talked about this a lot
on the radio over the years and stuff too, I was molested and that
was I didn't realize how much that really kind of man, I can fuck
you up in many many ways. And so what I found was people used
to say to me on something, you go into TV, TV TV,
and I thought TV would be cool. But I was like one, I
was self conscious about my looks and I was also I didn't like the idea
that people could actually see me, and I liked in radio that I didn't
at least when I began. I could be anybody I wanted to be.
I could be the coolest guy in the world. I could say shit that
I probably wouldn't say in person. I could do that kind of thing.
So it was almost like you were able to hide. You could put on
your superhero costume. Same reason why people become furries. Yeah, yes,
yeah, I know which sounds so weird. Right, that's a great analogy
because we all look at those people go, what the fuck did you?
I mean, I think there was a guy recently that spent fourteen thousand dollars
to have a complete costume, so he looks like Lassie, I'm sure.
And it was on the New York Post. Just came from my My daughter's
hockey team was in the National Championship game in California, and we were coming
back from California and someone came through security with their full furry costume. They
didn't make him take his head off. He came through security with his head
and I show you not it was real. I got a picture with him
in the airport. That's funny. Yeah, that's very funny. Not a
mascot. This, this is a full head this this guy, this is
this is this is what he did. He identified as a wolf. Okay,
yeah, all right, yeah whatever. I mean. The other thing
is like whatever gets you through the day. Yeah, yeah, you know,
I mean that well, yeah, I mean to get back to what
you were saying before, you know, that was before I forget. You
really can train yourself to think this way, right, I mean, for
you know, fifteen years now, I've been doing three gratitudes a day,
right, three three things that I'm grateful for. And then when I first
started, it was really hard, and it's always just simple stuff. You
know, pants, I don't need to iron, you know, clean water,
yes, whatever. Yes, you know, when you're doing it,
you're scanning your environment for things you're grateful for. And if you do that,
I mean you do that for you know, a month straight, and
I promise you that you will start scanning your environment for things that you're grateful
for when you're not even trying. Yes, right, It's almost like,
uh, what's the thing they'll do some of these conferences and things, you
know, Uh, look around the room and find everything that's green, yeah,
right, grounding yourself yea, or or imagine everything and then and then
they have you close your eyes and now find everything that's brown. Well you
can't, you know, you're finding everything on screen? Or do you buy
a car of a certain color and now you see every car that color?
There's there are more cars that colored. No, there's Actually there's a video
game for depression that I prescribed to my clients with depression where it's a grid.
It's called psych me up. And it's a grid that has like twelve
faces on it and they're all making different facial expressions and there's one smiling face
and you've got to find the smiling face and touch it. And you go
through you know a series of like you know, ten of these grids,
and the goals to get as fast as you can at finding the smiling face
and touching it. And the clients, why I prescribe this to who actually
do it, come back and say that they're you know, they they're noticing
themselves, you know, seeing things. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting
because it is. It's it's pretty much in our head. And that was
the thing with radio for me. And then as I got older and I
you know, were around more people who are authentic, uh, And I
would even say, you know, Weeze in particular was very authentic that you
went, well, that's the way you want to be. You want to
be just who y'all are, and it it'll work and it somehow. I
mean that that's kind of how I fell into that. And now now here
we are with cameras and all the ship that I was avoiding anyway, So
it doesn't I think that a lot of that stuff goes in your head.
But that was how I, uh, the radio thing was for me.
It was more to hide and I liked being somebody I wasn't. I felt
more comfortable with trying to not I didn't like me and like being me.
And that happened between the time of two and four years old is when is
when most of that happened, and when most of you know that, you
know, lack of self confidence in those things, really, and that's when
you're developing your template for human interactions. You're your you your way of dealing
with the world. And uh, you know all of our parents do their
best. Yes, no, And I agree with that too, because you
could go back and I'm sure the whole idea of your mother and your mother,
but they are the voices in your head. I think that that.
I've read a book once that said, uh, men should act as though
their father were dead and not to be mean under staying. But there's a
lot of things. That's the leading figure in your life, the probably the
person who would approve or disapprove most of what you do. And so therefore,
what would you do if he weren't around? Would you be freer to
do this, would you be free to do that? And I can say
there were certain things that certainly now my dad was never a huge fan of
this stuff. But I also had a big I don't care attitude too,
and I'm just gonna go do it. So there was that. But I
think when it comes to like writing, like I've always wanted to write a
book, my dad was a brilliant He is a brilliant guy, and I
think that would often tell me I didn't have a command of the English language.
And then I had three clunkers in a row in my elementary school and
I never learned how to really structures in my ideas were good, but I
couldn't write. I never wrote. That was it. And I remember that
I wound up. You had to take an English placement test in college,
and I'm like, I'll never do this. I don't think I finished the
test. I was like, it doesn't matter. So I wind up in
the like this ridiculously whatever class and they had you write something. And this
woman pulls me aside and goes, honey, you don't belong here, and
I said, what do you mean? She goes, well, first of
all, I want you to read what you wrote in front of the class.
She goes, it's so great and rich and it paints a picture and
she goes and then we're going to move you out here. And I was
like, okay, so you know what I'm saying, Like, but all
that that whole idea of you're an idiot, you can you know? And
I feel bad because I don't think that was what he was trying to say.
Yeah, I think it was let me help you. And what I
heard was you suck? Do you know what I'm saying? I hear it.
I had a great example of a client I just saw a couple of
weeks ago. We were walking through the hallways. So I have a private
practice, mind Fit Mental Health in East Rochester. We do a lot of
integrating games in therapy and I was walking a client up and down the hall
and this particular client obsesses over whether or not he's doing things right constantly.
You know, Am I making the right decision? Now? I'm I'm making
the right Like almost every thought is you know, followed by is that the
right thought to have? Okay? Right? And uh, You've been seeing
him for several months and we're walking down the hall and all of a sudden,
I asked him, what do you think was different when you were you
know, when you were younger. I forget what question I asked him,
but he like stopped in his tracks and said, because I have autism,
everyone's been telling me what I Everyone's been looking over my shoulder in my whole
life, and I never know if I'm doing things the right way. Yeah,
right, And it was just starts a second guess yourself on everything.
It was this like aha moment where, of course, like this, this
is this guy at this point, he's twenty three years old, I think,
and he's been an entire life of people looking over his shoulder making a
well meaning right. They want to make sure and they want to make sure
that he's you know, fitting in. But but it has, you know,
all the guidance that they're giving him is you're doing this wrong, You
got to do it this way, You're not good at this. Let me
let let's just take a quick break here. When we come back. I
want to kind of jump off that because I have a theory that I think
really applies to everybody, and when people kind of look at me sideways on
it, I go back to the Bible for an example, because I always
think that that sometimes for people is like a good base, right, but
to almost what you're saying where you know, and we will get to that
next. But first, Iron Smoke Distillery in Fairport, New York. Baby,
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Plates and Shakes dot Com. What the song comes over the stall your cup
out copy? Yup? Got dude the kitchen floor left, see your spot
eyes started doll at Ris says, wells rule slightly dumps. You gotta keep
it just like I always love. This song is a live version of John
Hyatt and the Gonners here, but John Hyatt wrote it. I love John
Hyatt and the song is your dad did, and it's basically all the shit
you realize that your dad went through. And in that example there, you
know you're getting ready. You gotta go sell door to door. You don't
really want to, but that's your job and you gotta do it for the
kids. And now your daughter just dumped their own meal on your kid's head.
And ships did flying everywhere, and it is funny, and I think
a lot of times it takes life perspective to kind of show you. And
I thought what you said a little while ago was everybody did the best they
could. Yeah, And I think if you keep that in mind, there's
less blame at some point. I'm a big believer that everything that happens to
you is your fault. And I know people get really weird about that.
And there is that I don't remember if the secret came out a number of
familiar Yeah, and so the whole idea there is basically that everything has come,
that you've attracted everything. And so people will say and got very upset.
And since you work with children on the autism spectrum, well, how
did I bring this? How could you say that I would never want this
for my child? And there are people and I'll call them teachers, that
say, yeah, but what you you're you're learning something from them, like
you're learning unconditional love. Unconditional love is a wonderful thing that gets thrown around
a lot. I don't know that human beings are capable of unconditional love.
And yet some people who are on the autism spectrum disorder or on the autism
spectrum, excuse me, probably are capable of unconditional love almost, you know
what I mean? Like you just and there are things that you can learn,
and maybe that's why I don't know. Maybe they're here to teach that.
I have no idea. But there's there's a book that says, and
by no means comparing a person to a dog. But right, there's a
book that suggests that I forget who wrote it. I think it's a it's
a river of consciousness that a dog has a lower level of consciousness than humans
because dogs don't recognize themselves in the mirror. Right, And I would argue
the opposite. I would say dogs have a higher level of consciousness than humans
because they don't recognize themselves in the area. Because it's not about themselves,
it's about everybody around them. It's about their connections to everything around them.
They you know, they are you know. It's you know, getting back
to unconditional love. Right, it's about I was thinking of a dog when
it's funny bringing that up because I just saw something too or Kneel de Grosse
Tyson said, I want to come back. I want to live like a
every day, like I'm a dog. Dogs are happy. They don't care
how long you're gone. They're happy to see you when you come back.
I want to be that for people in their lives happy, you know,
so then they're happy to see me and I'm there and and dogs are great
therapy teachers. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I never really thought of
that. That's that's interesting because you think of the somebody says therapy dog.
A lot of times we're thinking, Okay, it's a it's a dog,
seeing eye dog, it's a maybe a dog that helps calm somebody. But
yeah, I'm sure there's They naturally provide the relationship that we spend years trying
to learn how to engage people in. Right. I typically don't like to
see people for years and years, right, because at that point it becomes
about the relationship. You know, people take from therapy what they need,
and it's not usually what we think we're giving them. Right, And there's
lots of the you know, therapy sayings like that. Right, therapy is
in the head of the therapist. Uh, you know, the first five
sessions, I feel great, Right, I know what I'm gonna do,
I know questions I'm going to ask. I know I'm trying to lead a
person in more of a future focused direction. We're focused on strengths, We're
looking at constraints, you know, we're we're using a deconstructive and reauthoring language
to try to understand the person's relationship to some of those different problems. And
and you know how they can achieve of this tool pass attitude. So first
five sessions, I feel great about that. After that it becomes about the
relationship. Uh. And dogs do that naturally. Ye, Dogs naturally engage
in that relationship. It's uh, that's I think a really difficult thing to
do is to sit there and just care about someone unconditionally and listen to them.
Yeah. It is because a lot of times it's I want this from
you, If you do this, that'll make me happy. That's a condition,
and we don't and we don't think of that. Yeah, I tell
my students when because when we do, when I do supervision and internship,
uh, you know, I'll notice people problem solving and we're talking about cases
and clients and they're saying all the same things to those people that those friends,
their friends are probably saying, right. Yeah, and uh, we
stop the conversation every time that happens and say, you your goal, your
job is to say something different. Your job is to say, you know,
you've got to expect that these people, your clients have lots of other
people around them telling them. You're being an idiot, you know, telling
them all the things that you're telling them. Right, you know your job
is to say something different. It's your role, okay. So that well,
you just sit there and the young man and who said everybody was always
looking over my shoulder. And as you pointed out, no one is trying
to do any harm to that young man. And I don't think most people.
I don't think most people are trying to harm anybody. I really don't.
I know that we have this idea that there's a lot of well it's
evil and it's this, and you can go into a philosophical as a deprivation
of good, but most things come from a good place, and there's miscommunication
and things mushroom, and I don't know. But back to that idea of
someone always looking over your shoulder. I believe that if you have an idea
that you want to do, say nothing. I've heard you say that,
yeah, And the only reason I say that is again that most people are
going to come to you in what they believe is a helpful way, and
they're going to try to give you advice, either from their experience trying something
or how they've seen it go with someone else or what they've read. But
they're not trying to harm you. But when you let that stuff in your
head, it's hard. You've got to be I mean, I think I
think one of the things that I've also realized never being a big Star Wars
guy boy, that that that is such a story about mental clarity and being
the Jedi and staying focused. Yeah, and all this stuff right, you
can see, so you almost have to be a Jedi mind to keep all
that out. But but at the same time, sometimes when we do that,
we say something that's off colors. We are not off color contradictory to
them when we start and we get we get right. But I mean,
let's say someone says something to you and you're like, you know, I'll
use this podcast as an example. Things change. I decide I'm going to
do the podcast, and I'm not really saying anything to anybody. There was
just a couple of people that knew I order all the equipment, and then
somebody I used to work with in radio, who themselves no longer in radio,
Uh, call me and say, hey, what's going on? How
are you are you? What are you doing? And I said, I'm
about to start a podcast. I was doing a podcast, and blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah. And I remember going, Had I gotten that
call twenty four hours earlier, I would have never bought the ship. But
because I was like there and I could see it for what it is,
and I knew this person wasn't trying to you know what I'm saying. But
I also think, unfortunately, you know, the old saying of youth is
wasted on the young, because if I were younger, I would have been
in a panic. Yeah, I would have been in a panic. But
because I'm older and I'm not necessarily wiser, but certainly have more experience,
I could go, I see this for what it is. I know why
this person's saying it. They're not necessarily wrong, but they're certainly not right
either, and that just because that's their experience doesn't mean it's mine. And
I would always go back to the Bible. When Jesus healed somebody, he
would say, go forth and tell no one, And I think that was
never really discussed, and I started to think, yeah, because you went
back and somebody goes through, oh that comes back. It comes back worse
the second time, you know what I'm saying, And then it's in your
head and so you go from pure positive light to these this resistance and doubt.
And I think a lot of times, if there's something you want in
life and it's not happening, it's because you don't fully believe. Yep.
Yeah, it comes back to that and the secret and some of that.
Yeah. Man, I mean, I know that that sounds so voodooish,
but I'm listening to you. You have a PhD. You've talked about spiritual
healing. You brought me water from some kind of magic rod in it,
right, But but but healing water an energy. Water. Yeah, life
is energy. I mean I think that that's something that has been overlooked.
Maybe not, maybe I wasn't in the right circles. I don't know.
I think we're getting there. I think so the people I've been speaking too
over the past year, and it had a chance to interview some amazing you
know, DNA scientists and scientists and cerebral spinal fluid and water scientists. Uh.
And we're in the process of preparing some content and being told for the
G twenty summit, which is I didn't want. I didn't even know what
that was when when I got involved in this. But uh, you know,
they're most of them have reached their limit with what they can They've they
are you know, people at Cambridge and Harvard and UCLA, and they've reached
the limit of what they can learn with modern medicine, and they're going back
to ancient medicine and looking at ancient you know, what we knew, what
ancient cultures knew, and trying to see if we can fill in some of
the gaps and try to learn what they learned. And most of them,
we created these incredible models, you know that look at modern medicine and ancient
medicine, and when you put them over each other, they almost they overlap
in this way like they're people thousands of years ago new stuff. Yes,
they knew stuff that and so you know, a lot of this stuff is
five thousand years old, right, I don't think that we don't know.
I think a lot of this stuff is just you know, really really old,
and we haven't we we almost discounted because it's old, exactly right.
We say, well that that's not today. We have so much technology and
so much but the I have this silly theory that every thought has already been
thought, and what we're doing is building off the original thought. So whatever
happened five thousand years ago, if that thought wasn't there, if that didn't
become manifestation, we wouldn't have extray machines today, or we wouldn't have whatever
it is, right, games, video games. I mean, all of
it was something that was progressive, but it built on thought. Yes that
was there, yeah, well and thought. We don't know where thoughts come
from, really, you know. You know, my belief over time has
been that we don't create thoughts. We you know, the research I've done,
the reading I've done, my own spiritual journeys. You know, I
really believe at this point that there is this one mind. Basically, you
know, everything that we need to know is around us freaking remains right,
and that we're more you know, our brains are more like lungs for for
consciousness than they are, you know, the creators of consciousness. Right,
we're breathing it in and we all have different personnel these in different ways of
looking at things because you know, each of our brains have been clouded with
different traumas and things like that. I mean, there's a filter in there
that only allows us to see things based on our particular perspectives, but that
ultimately, you know, we're all connected by this one consciousness. And and
that's where like when I talk about autism is evolution, you know, that's
where my mind goes is. You know, I can't help but think that
some of the people that I work with are connected to that consciousness in a
different way. Right. We've got I've got people who you know, can
you know, play the piano like you know, uh, they've been at
Eastman School forever, you know, the first time they sit down at a
piano, right, right, I've got people who remember dates, you know,
you know, ten years. I have this one client. If you
tell him your birthday and then he doesn't see you again for ten years,
and you ask him your birthday, he'll tell you your birthday, you know,
and your mom's birthday and anybody else's birthday who you told him, right,
And so I can't help but think that some people, you know,
perhaps some people on the spectrum, have a different connection to you know,
to that one mind. Right. It's really become a big part of my
belief system and to some extent the way that I do therapy. Tell me
about a little bit about your spiritual journey, because this is the fascinating part,
because I think there's the clinical and then there's this other side, and
it is almost referred to as a voodoo wish thing. I think that most
people look at it that way. You came in and before we started,
you said to me, I know your mom. I've listened to you on
the ready of your mom's a level three reiki and I said, yeah,
I think my mom is somebody who I don't know that she fully believes in
some of the healing stuff herself because she's got hip problems and all this.
And I talked about doing having her do reiki on me, and I couldn't
stop crying after that one time. I just couldn't stop crying, and it
was like you could almost see this. I do think that there's stuff there.
I don't certainly I'm not one of these, you know, but to
go too far into it, but I do think that there's something there,
and that the the idea of consciousness and energy is very important, and that
there are waves out there and whatever you link up to is going to be
what you're in and sometimes I mean you could. Radio is a great analogy.
Right, If I'm listening to one hundred point five, I can't hear
what's on on on ninety six five. If I'm listening to whatever, I
ninety three point seven and I can't hear what's on Yeah, right, So
you tune into that that frequency and whatever is happening on that frequency. And
a lot of times, you know, think about it, You're having a
bad day, and more bad stuff keeps happening because you're on that frequency.
And I really am a big believer in that, and I think that you
can change it, you can change your day. And I think there's some
teachers. I always think, uh, Tony Robbins is a teacher. A
lot a lot of people like you can change your state. I'm not such
a big subscriber to Tony Robbins. There are others that I like more,
but I would be one where I'm a big believer in meditation. I think
that fifteen minutes a day, I sit and I try really hard to just
concentrate on some sound in the room, and that's it. Breathe in,
breathe out, and no thought. Now, thoughts will come in and sometimes
I try to think of like an iPad where I just whitefulness meditation right now
and just trying to stay in that moment. And there's something about that that
kind of raises you up and you can almost handle a lot of shit better
that's coming at you. I don't know, but you talked about writing down
grateful what has been your spiritual journey? As I often well, it's it's
all related to telful, it's this is a great conversation. I'm enjoying it.
Thanks me too. Uh So, I often refer to myself as recovering
Catholic. Okay, I came from a very Catholic myself. I went to
Catholic schools growing up. I was, you know, to tell you some
more stories, but I might get myself in trouble with some people who I
care about I can't understand, but so they you know, kind of started
there. And then my dad died seventeen years ago, and uh you know
that really and kept shifted my perspective in a lot of different ways. I'm
and then doing this type of work, uh you know, has been a
big change for me. And so over the past ten years or so,
there's things like water and gratitude and other things that have become important parts of
parts of my life, partly because of research I've done in books that I've
read. Uh this past year has been especially interesting. I went to this
Uh, so I have I have Type one diabetes and uh my daughter and
I have three daughters, so I'm kind of the opposite family that you have,
yes, mirror image. Uh, And my my oldest daughter and I've
been climbing the forty six speaks in the ad Aroundics. We just finished back
in October. That's amazing. It was so much fun. It's so much
fun. I can't recommend it to anybody who wants to challenge themselves. But
that was a big part of my journey too, was it was getting more.
It's a kind of ironic that I wrote a book on using technology in
mental health and actually so so such a big part of my life and my
work actually is getting kids who are stuck in their parents' basements outside to get
exposed to nature. And uh, it's to kind of get back to the
point my daughter and I were climbing these these mountains and uh, back in
late July last year, we were going to climb the Dicks Range and I
got to the base of the mountain and I can I had what I can
only describe as some sort of seizure. I know now that it was a
pseudo seizure of some sort, but I was convulsing. I couldn't stop convulsing.
It was funny. I had my daughter myself, and then she had
her friend there and her friend's dad who's a guynecologist, and I asked him
what he thought was wrong with me, and he said, my ovaries were
fine, So that's that's legit. Uh, And so we had to turn
back, and I was distraught, felt like there was no way that I'm
going to be able to finish these mountains. I'm not the person that I
that I want to be, basically, and the autoimmune process that caused my
type one diabetes is supposed to at some point attack other organs, and I
figured, this is probably, you know, the next shoes dropping, This
is probably what's happening right now, and so I right after that, I
was scheduled to go to a conference in Cape cod put on by Harvard.
I like to do this every every few years. It's awesome conference. You
go in the morning and then it's at a beach resort, so you can
go out on the beach in the afternoon. And so my wife and I
went, and, uh, it's all Harvard professors there. This particular one,
they had three different track sessions. There was a cognitive behavior therapy track
session, which I was in. There was a psychopharmacology session that was going
on, and then there was a mindfulness meditation track session that was going on.
And so I got to this conference and it's just still feeling pretty awful,
no appetite, worry that, you know, I'd have another one of
these episodes. About the second day into the conference, I walked out of
the conference and I was sitting down at at a table with a bunch of
psychologists, and I was talking about my book. I was at the time
the book had just come out, and I was marketing the book and talking
about the book. And I noticed out of the corner of my eye someone
who at the time he looked really tall. He's actually not that tall,
but at the time he looked really tall. I was an Indian gentleman with
long hair and a long beard, and he was wearing all white. It
was like a white robe almost, but it was you know, pants and
his shirt but it was all white linen, and kind of made eye contact
with him out of the corner of my eye for a second, and then
went back to talking to the people at my table. And it seemed like
within seconds he had kind of just floated over to me. If you've ever
seen Prince like move, yeah, it's it's like he's floating or something about
Prince when he and this, it was he somehow like floated over to me
and he was standing right up over my shoulder. And so I another couple
of minutes, I finished my conversation with people at this table, and I
looked up at him and I asked him, you know what I could do
for him? It was kind of creeped out a little bit, and and
he grabbed both of my hands and he said, he said, the universe
has sent me to you. He said I've been looking for you that He
said, you have very important work to do. He said, you must
have two sessions with me, and so I you know that didn't help me
being creeped out. Uh, yeah, that would be weird. I was
thinking, Uh, what kind of charlatan are you? That was kind of
the impression I got. Yep, And but you know, it was a
mental health conference and there were lots of different types of people there and they
were and so and I saw him go into the mindfulness this meditation conference,
and I got the impression that he was somehow associated with Hartvard and that he
was, you know, he was there for a bigger reason than because he
was, you know, participating in the conference. And so the next day
I came out for break and he was eating a yogurt at a table and
he asked me to sit down for my first session, and he held my
wrist for like five minutes. He used these three fingers. It's something called
arabetic medicine. Have you ever heard of aerobetic medicine? So it's an ancient
healing approach in India. It's five thousand years old. Uh and UH.
Basically what they're looking for there's different energy flows when you when you hold your
risk like this, and there's different codes they're looking for. There's three hundred
and fifty different possible come you know codes, and they are different combinations of
these codes. And this healer deep Saying, who's also he was Nelson Mandela's
personal healer for a number of years. I learned afterwards, he's an expert
in this arobetic medicine, and so he helped my wrist for about five medicine
minutes and afterwards he said, ah, yes, he said, just as
I suspected, in a thick Indian accent. Uh, this is You've got
very important work to do. He said, You've got three years that are
getting in your way. And so now I'm curious. He gave me the
years. He said, twenty thirteen, two thousand and eight, and nineteen
eighty eight. And uh, actually not two eight, twenty thirty. I'm
trying to remember that I'm not at dates at all. I should bring in
my client who's really good at dates. Anyway, he gave me three dates,
and I went back to the hotel room at the conference and I told
my wife, I'm like, this is a really odd thing that happened today.
I had, you know, I did this session with this Indian healer,
and he told me that I've got three years that are getting in my
way of my energy flow, and that in that I've got important work to
do, but that I need to work through these years. And so I
told her the years because I'm not good at years, and I don't remember
things that happened and things like that. And she said, well, actually,
and my wife doesn't think this way at all. She said, that
was the year your dad died, that was the year we had a full
term stillborn. And the year in the eighties was just a difficult year for
me. Is in childhood. And so now I'm really intrigued. Right,
just nailed these three years. I see, do you need to take a
break soon too? I want to make sure that I'm not babbling on and
on. No, no, no, no, good babbled on. Okay,
if I look like I'm squirming, it's because I have to go to
the bathroom. I drink so much water during the day. But no,
I'm I'm interested in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going.
Okay, no, no, keep going, Let's keep going. So I
went back the next day to the conference. And I also have to go
to the bathroom often because of my diabetes. Anytime my sugar goes over to
one sixty, I've got to go to the bathroom. And so I abruptly
left my track session. And you know, this healer was waiting outside Doctor
Deep was waiting outside my my my room when I when I got there,
he said, I've been waiting for you, which is again kind of interesting
and maybe a little bit you know, creepy. But I said, okay,
well, I've got to go to the bathroom, can you know.
He said, it's time for your second session. I said, okay,
well, let me go to the bathroom. I'll come back and we'll do
this. And so at this for the second session, he had me hold
my head down on my hands and he asked me if I had a bottle
of water, and held the bottle of water out and he said, okay,
open up the bottle of water. And for about seven minutes he had
me I had in my hands and he felt around on my scalp. And
afterwards he asked me to sit up and he said told me to drink the
water, and he said, drink the water till there's about twenty five percent
left, and he said keep refilling it for the next couple of days.
He said, you're going to feel better, and so I never told him
I wasn't feeling well, and he at this point told me, you know,
your sugars are going to be better. You're gonna have a better appetite.
He used all these things that I had never shared with him that that
I was having these issues. I suppose there's some way that he could find
out, but sure, he was just very positive and reinforcing that I was
going to feel better. And and he said, and we're going to talk
again, he said, And he said be ready. Basically, so I
should you not? I Kevin felt better in you know, twelve years since
I started drinking this water. And so I'm on my way. That was
the last day of the conference. We were driving back. Was it a
specific kind of water or is it just like the Waman's spring water? Okay,
so it's just it could have been any water, any water, Okay,
yep. And so I, uh, just driving home to Cape Kyle
with my wife, and I just just had this like lightness, right,
I just felt great. I had an appetite, which was and but I'm
a scientist, right, like I know, like placebo effect is a real
thing. We don't know what causes the placebo effect or where the polacee able
effect comes from, but you know, we I'm definitely at this point thinking,
what, you know, maybe I maybe I really needed someone to tell
me I was going to be okay, yeah, okay, yeah, And
so I continued to feel better for the next week. That night when we
got home, my daughter and I, we left it three in the morning
and went up and climbed a high peak and got back that night and I
was running through the woods just like, feeling better than I had when I
was a kid. And I'm like, there's gotta be something to this,
I really and uh. And so ever since that point, I've been in
connection with him and other people in India who are you know, experts in
this arabetic medicine and who practiced this and practiced not. And I've had a
chance to learn a lot about it. What is naughty? So natty is
the energy that holds water together? Okay, and so the apparently five thousand
years ago and I'm still learning this stuff, and I'm still skeptical. And
I'm talking about this as if you know, everyone should drink this water,
You're gonna be great, right. I hope that's the case. They know
I'm feeling better. So it's called naughty water, correct, yep? Okay?
But is naughty water every piece of water or is it have to have
special treatment to be naughty water? Great question. Natty water is water that's
charged with natty energy. Okay, So it's water that. So there's a
scientist, doctor Mooto. I don't know if you're familiar, but he wrote
a book called Secret Messages and Water. Okay, and there's been other experiments
over the years that have looked at similar things related to water memory. Yeah,
like if this book was really cool. He basically what this guy did
was he froze. I'm gonna have to pause here, let's do because you
keep talking about water and if I'm gonna wet my pants, but let me
wait. You know, all do is We'll take a qui commercial break,
and then I want to come back. I want to talk about naughty water.
We'll wrap it up in our next one. I want to learn more
about the naughty water. I want to tell you some things that I have
heard about water and see if that goes to your thing. And then I
just want to ask you kind of about people today in social media. Sounds
good, all right, you don't mind? Sounds good, all right?
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of All Trades dot net. He said, I've been where you've been before,
down every hallways, a slamming door, no way out, no want
to come and save me. Waste in the life that the Good Lord gave
me. This said, saying Sila. They told me, and I don't
even know the song when I found the title something in the Water. Carrie
Underwood and uh, Carrie Underwood is is a very small person. I met
her and I had my son Jamison, who we lived in the same neighborhood.
I didn't even really know that for a while and I was out trick
or treating and you heard me say Jamison, yeah. Uh, but Jamison
was a baby, And I said to her, where you signed my baby's
forehead. You had to see the look on her face. It's like,
what, I go, Yeah, I'm gonna have a tattoo there. So
when he goes off, he got a little weird. But something in the
water. And there is many people who believe that there's healing powers and water.
Now you were talking about natty water, but naughty is the energy that
holds water together. That's what I'm told, okay, and so hu it
is that water has memory, all right. So there was this uh scientist
doctor Amoto long time ago to some really interesting research where he exposed water to
different types of music, different you know, you bring people in a room
and ask them to all think angry thoughts around the water, and then he
would freeze it immediately and he would examine the crystals. Really and if the
book, I think it's called The Secret Messages and Water. Uh and so,
and there's actually now an award called the Emoto Award for you know water.
Every year though, the water scientist who discovers something interesting about water gets
this Emoto Award. And so that the what he learned was that you know,
if you exposed water to say, classical music and freeze the crystals,
that the crystals will be really symmetrical and beautiful, whereas if you expose them
to heavy metal music, they'll be you know, all over the place and
and not very symmetrical. The most the emotion that that caused the most consistently
symmetrical crystals was gratitude. And so when you expose water to gratitude, uh,
it creates the most consistently beautiful and symmetrical crystals, according to this research.
And so Naughty Water h works on this premise that water has memory and
that by charging water with this naughty energy, and there's a process that you
go through that right, I charge water for you. But actually, you
know the technically you really probably should go to the the natty rod at Fisher
and there's a naughty rod ad Fisher that you can can anybody just go get
water there. Yeah. So so doctor Deep came back in November. This
is a whole remind me to tell you this story when when he came.
Yeah, but that's how we have the rod. He charged this rod with
natty energy at Fisher and uh, you sit next to it and essentially you
meditate, right, You you sit there with a bottle with the bottle open,
and you meditate, and there's certain and things that you know. And
the idea is to think about what you're trying to clear, you know,
so that you can It goes back to those those three years that doctor Deep
gave me in there, right. The idea is you're trying to clear the
trauma associated with those particular dates as a way to bring yourself back to a
healthy state. And you know, one of the DNA scientists that I interviewed
from Cambridge, doctor Thane Balu, he researches naughty water and he's he's discovered
that naughty water can turn genes on and off. Right, if you drink
naughty water, it can actually activate certain genes and deactivate other nonhelpful genes.
And so it's a it's working on this this memory of water. And you
know we're we're more than ninety percent water. Well, that's what I was
just thinking as you're saying this And the weird thing is like somebody said to
me once, what kind of music do you listen to sometimes that nobody would
suspect or even know about you? And I said, classical. On nurse
times, I'll just put I'm in here, I'll put on classical music.
Yeah, it's uh what you expose yourself. Those types of things absolutely,
you know impact. And I've been thanking my water for years, even before
I met doctor Deeper. I knew about this stuff when I learned about the
Power of Gratitude and read, you know, doctor Ramoto's book. I'll,
you know, kind of embarrassed to admit it, but I'll, you know,
thank my water before I drink it. I could have hurt anything nobody
notices me doing. I away say thank you the Siri. When I say,
hey, Siri, how do I smell the something that people make fun
of me? I go, oh, thank you, dear. I'm not
sure she works the same way. No she doesn't. Oh my god,
Now I got Sirie going off. So you know, it really all comes
down to, you know, quantum biophysics. Okay, all right, you
know, And to get back to what I was saying before about you know,
some of these scientists who have gotten as far as they can in modern
medicine now looking back at you know, ancient knowledge and how we can learn
from them. I really do believe that we're on the precipice of moving towards
a more quantum way of looking at health. Right right now, we look
at health at the cellular level, you know, that's what we can see,
that's what we can study, that's what we see it, taste to
touch it kind of yeah, yeah, And there's so much more than that
going on, right And we were there's electrons that you know, when you
look at it at an atom, you know, electrons are leaving, they're
coming back. We don't know where they're going, right We know we know
that this thing called entanglement exists right where you can manipulate in an atom on
one side of the world and the same thing will happen to it on the
other side of the world. Uh, I didn't know that. Yeah,
yeah, this is a real thing. And so you know, quantum physicists
are learning all sorts of things now that are starting to work their way into
health. And I truly believe that that's the next stage of of health is
really looking at things not at the cellular level, but at the at the
quantum level. And that's that's uh to a large extent. What not The
premise that not he works on right, is that there's there are there's all
this energy and things that are happening behind the scenes that are impacting how ourselves
work. Yeah, and if we can give ourselves the right nourishment, the
right the right information, uh, the right energy, you know, we
can help ourselves function better. We can turn genes on that should be on,
we can deactivate genes that shouldn't be on. It's the other thing that
I've learned from doctor Angelou and the DNA scientist is you know the impact that
things like trauma and things like that have on our DNA. Yeah, so
you know this, it's an exciting time to learn about all. Well,
it's it's interesting because there is the theory of the aging process. It's just
getting old sucks. People say, yep, and I wish I could hold
back time or I could do whatever. And I started to think about that
one day and it's it's a little crazy thought. And this is where my
head goes. And I don't really talk about it because I think people go
and he's fucking insane. I worry about that sometimes. So I my thinking
was, we don't want to ever stop going through time, because that means
you stop living. And that's the end result, is that we want we
want to continue doing what we're doing and feeling good as we do it.
But are we is the degeneration of our body almost in our head in that
this is what happens when you get old. And we've been told that,
and so all a belief is is a thought you think over and over and
over again, and so that we believe this that maybe it's not true.
Could you heal your body? I mean, nothing lasts forever, I understand,
but energy does, and you can't destroy energy. So if we are
energy, then we never die. We just cease to exist in this form,
but we never die. Now, there are Buddhists who will say,
well, then you become the tree and you become the flower or an Okay,
but not even that. I think it's it's something else. I think
it's always energy. You are eternal, just not in this form. But
we live in such a see it, touch it, taste it world that
we that if it's not in front of us, we can't conceptualize or understand.
While the iPad wasn't yep, do you understand what I'm saying? It
came from somewhere, So we have to start. If you can kind of
get into that thinking, you can change the world. Now, I what
is the How did naughty water and the naughty rod come to Fisher? And
honestly, could I go over there by myself someday? Absolutely? You can.
Absolutely, I'd love to give you instructions and I'll meet you over there
one time and then you can go if you if you think, yeah,
I actually have set my clients over there and several of them said said that
they found found it helpful. You absolutely can. I had a thought related
to U, s oh the aging. Yes, I agree with you.
There's actually a psychodemic dynamic approach to treating pain. Yeah, that really looks
and you could some people argue that it isn't much as seventy percent of pain
cases are in the mind. Yeah, and there so there are approach,
very effective approaches to treating pain where you get people out of these cycles where
they're thinking, oh, every time I do this, I feel it in
my back right right right, and help retrain them so that they think differently
about their pain, and they think differently or expect different things from And then
I think it also goes back to what you said to the right nourishment.
We eat so much stuff that inflames our body, which adds to the pain,
which adds to the stuff and then adds to the you know what I
mean, and we poison ourselves. Yeah, and that's a big part of
Naughty two actually is food eating. Those are all parts of the you know,
the Natti approach, which I'm still learning at this point, as I
think I said it before. Natti came out five thousand years ago in the
same book as Meditation and yoga, and meditation and yoga kind of took off
and Nadi because it is kind of you want to know why, because hotter
chicks got involved from hotter chicks got involved in yoga. The naughty had of
me. They knew that in the year two thousand, yoga pants yoga pants
for a thing because words naughty pants. I don't see naughty pants now.
Wet T shirt contests. Yeah, that may work. That's really interesting because
so I started to tell me about doctor deep doctoring, and he first seems
deep last names thing okay. So he In October of last year, I
was still feeling good, talking to him on FaceTime and communicating with some other
people in India who are who are big into into this naughty stuff. And
I got a call from one of his assistants in India and said, doctor
Deep's gonna come visit you. He's coming to he wants to come to Saint
John Fisher. He's gonna come visit you in November. Uh. And so
I panicked a little bit because I knew I was worried about how people would
would perceive this and look at this. Uh. And this person also said
he wants to stay with you. So I told my wife. She said,
no fucking way, for a good reason probably. I mean, I've
got three daughters. And he's a stranger, you know, strange Indian man
who she you know who she's I think she met quickly at the Harvard conference.
And so my next call was to my mother. And before I even
asked her, she said because I had told her the story, she's I
said, Mom, I have something to ask you. What it's me kind
of awkward, And she goes, doctor Deep's coming to visit and you wanted
to stay with me. I'm like yeah, no, really yeah, And
so I like, yes' is that okay? And and and she said yes.
And I offered to put him up in a hotel. He didn't want
to. He wanted to stay if I couldn't. He couldn't stay with me.
He wanted to stay with my mom because that's where I grew up.
And and uh, really just he's actually got a huge rice farm in India.
Most of our Bosmodi rice comes from his rice, okay, And that
supports his work. And he travels the world spreading this this naughty energy and
naughty and information about naughty. And so he stayed with my mom. And
uh, he drove around with me all week this one week at Fisher and
did a presentation at Fisher for our Dean. He did healings with all of
my faculty and with other people at Fisher. They all he did the same
thing with them that he did with me, held their wrist for for about
five minutes, you know, gave them three years. They all left their
sessions with him, you know, mind blown, you know, some of
them crying. Oh my god, I can't believe he knew that. Uh.
I brought him to one of my mentors houses whose wife had been essentially
bedridden for the past year, and he had her walking and and did yeah,
it's this really incredible presentation at Fisher where he zoomed in this water scientist
from Italy and uh, you know, didn't talked about naughty and what it
is. And then we had a ceremony at Fisher where he charged this copper
It was an eight foot copperade that I bought it home depot and he had
this process where he wrapped it in white fabric and we all put what flower
pedals in it, and and then we all stood around him while he charged
it. I felt like something like I felt light or something something different happening
while he was charging it. Again, I don't know, you know what
that you know that could just be place about whatever that is sable was interesting
because just to give it a little different perspective, just for a moment.
I'm sorry, I hope, I'm not. No, No, it's hurting
too much. You're train of thought. But what you've said this before,
and I remember being a young kid, like thirteen fourteen years old and drinking
what I thought was beer and it was non alcoholic beer. But we didn't
know it. You got drunk. Yeah, we acted drunk and we thought
we were drunk. And then it was like and it's about I go,
boy, our brain like we didn't know. We're laughing thinking, we're you
know, And it's a strange thing that what that happens with the brain.
You believe, And I do think that most stuff comes down to what you
truly believe, not what you want, but what do you believe? And
you can tell what you believe by what's happening in your every day yes,
and which again is when you When I met with doctor Deep, he provided
so much just positive feedback and then you know, that's what has me thing.
Yes, He's got me believing and feeling better about myself. This has
got to be placebo. Which led me in a whole other down a whole
other rabbit hole, looking into the placebo effect. Doctor Sugerman's actually an expert
in the placebo effect. There was someone who wrote a doctor Joe Despenzo,
I don't know if you've heard of him, wrote a book called You Are
the Placebo or really applies a lot of these you know, quantum ideas and
this idea of belief to health and yeah, I still trying to figure it
out. But to get back to doctor Deep's visit, he traveled around with
me, did this, did this really cool presentation at one point, and
this is probably one of the wildest things that happened while he was there.
As I told you, I had to buy this copper rod at home depot.
I bought it the week before he came. There was one point in
the trip where we were come from one place and we're going to another way.
Had to swing by my house to pick up the copper rod because we
had to bring it to Fisher so that he could charge it for this presentation.
And I have a pickup truck. I put the back down on the
pickup truck and we put the copper rod in there, and he looked at
me and really deep Indian accent, he said, Doctor Rob, this this
isn't gonna stay. This isn't gonna work. And I looked at him and
I said, yeah, this is fine. I do this all the time.
I traveled stuff in the back of my truck all the time with ope,
and I'll take the back roads. Don't worry about it so long.
Behold. We get to Fisher and I get out of the parking lot and
the copper rod's not there. It fell out. And I looked up at
him and I said, doctor Deep, you were right. I am sorry.
I'm gonna run to home depot. We got a half hour. I
can get a new copper rod. Will be fine. And he looked at
me and he goes, don't worry, said no, we need a copper
rod. You know there's people expecting this ceremony and they want to He said,
no, it'll come back. He said, someone saw it. It'll
come back. I'm not sure that's how things work. I said, how
about I go to home depot just in case it doesn't come back, and
I'll get another rod. And he started to get kind of frustrated with me,
like, doctor Rob, you gotta believe me. It's gonna come back.
And I said, okay, well, and doctor Deep, I'll take
you up to my dean. You can do your second healing with my dean.
I'll wait for a little while, and if it doesn't come back,
I'm going to run a home depost so that we have a copper rod.
And he said fine. I mean, so he goes up, he does
his healing. I walk downstairs. I sho you not. I walk out
of the front of the school and nursing and a security guard is standing there
with a copper ROTI he was we found this at the entrance to the school.
Is this yours? I held it up, I ran upstairs. I'm
like, it came back. It came back. And I think, you
know, I believe that we all have these mystical experiences over our life,
right that help connect us to and and let us know that there is something
else going on. But over time, in the same way that you were
saying, if you have a good idea, you don't tell anybody right.
Over time you tell people these things, and they tell you and you start
to doubt them. And even now as I'm talking about this, you know,
I'm like, Jesus, probably sounds crazy, but it doesn't. Well,
you're talking to the right person, because it doesn't necessarily sound crazy to
me because I I don't know. I grew up in that woodstock hippie dippy
weird strange stuff. And then as I got older, Uh, you know,
you you talked about recovering Catholic. I've talked about a lot. How
I come from a very Irish Catholic family, my father was of philosophy was
really his thing, and went for his PhD and philosophy and didn't feel like
he was getting enough out of the church. So at seven I switched to
more of what was an old Quaker church but Protestant. Well, that was
like the worst thing you could do in my family. I mean, that
was it. We didn't get my mother didn't get invited to my grandfather her,
she's the oldest, he really honest to God, pride and joy of
his life. Didn't talk to her. Year he was retiring from the fire
department in New York City, was not invited to the retirement party because of
this, because northern Southern Ireland, and that wasn't yeah. And so but
then all my life, as I've gone through different things, and you go
through different experiences, and I don't know that I've ever i would say studied
anything necessarily, but for a while Buddhism was very interesting to me, and
this idea of we live forever and the energy and positivity and finding the joy
and even the things we don't like to do, and that there's always and
so that was mine. And then at one point I think that I think
I will say this. I think there are teachers on the planet, and
I think doctor deep is it sounds like one of these teachers and is in
an intuitive in some way that we don't understand. And so then I,
you know, and we're so based in a judae Christian society, right,
and our calendars that and all that, so okay, so there's a lot
of that influence. And then they started listening times to Tony Robbins, and
I thought, I think there was some real practicality there, but there was
something about it I didn't really like, and I, you know, different
things. And so I've talked to my sister and she said to me,
have you ever heard of Esther Hicks? And I said no? And Esther
Hicks is this woman who it depends on what you read, but she is
somebody that goes around and she holds seminars and things and you can do cruises
with her and all, and she channels the source and talks basically all the
stuff that I say, which had and I fully believe and have done in
my life. And I don't know. I find that almost daily I'll find
her on YouTube and just listen, and there's always something in there, and
it's always about going for the better feeling thought. It's about life's never gonna
stop coming at you, but how you react to it, and that you
want to get on a she'll say the term high flying disc and that really
the only work in life is to be happy. And it's about the journey.
Yeah, And it's about the journey. It's satisfaction. So I think
what she says too, and it's a it's about the journey because and one
of the things that this person says is you never get it done and you
never get it wrong. It's right. So even the things we look at
in life, well this failed will that, Yeah, but be kinder to
yourself and be a little more buoyant. And let's not excuse me cold the
cork under the water so much and let it kind of ride this way,
and that there are streams of consciousness and there are streams and waves and all
this stuff that I go. That's the one that has connected with me for
years and I fully fully believe, and I can tell you have hanged had
massive change in my life and everything's going fine, you know what I mean,
everything like And that's where so I've done things where I had listed gratitudes,
things I appreciate every day. Right, I did that for a long
time. You know what I do now? I sit down and I write
how great the day was, as though I lived it, how great the
day already was. I am so happy and grateful for boom boom boom,
boom boom and even and when there's days I haven't done it, I've done
a complete spiral. I'm not gonna tell you that it's a cakewalk every day.
I think on Saturday, it was a gorgeous day here, beautiful day.
I didn't leave my couch. I taught a boxing class. I went
home and I did not leave my couch. I was in a miserable mood.
I was awful. But I didn't do any of the stuff that I
would normally do. I didn't start my day the way I would always start
my day. I start my day. I get up at like six thirty.
I jump in a cold shower to wake myself up. I sit for
fifteen minutes. I stretch, I go for a run. I come back.
I do an ab thing because I'm getting I call my flabs. And
then I sit down and I write how I expect the day to go.
I get my shower, and I come here and that's what I do.
Or sometimes I'll prepare food that I can bring here, like an egg wrap
with jeddar and avocado and and that kind of stuff. And that's what I've
been doing. And I've only been doing that probably for the last month.
That others shit I've been doing for years something some variation of that for years
and years now. When I was in radio, I had to get up
at three o'clock in the morning. I wasn't running, and I wasn't but
I did do the cold shower, and I did do the meditation, and
then while I was doing the news on Wham during commercials, I would start
writing down things. I appreciate it. I think that's fantastic, just saying
it always it always worked, it always help. Yeah, I'm a believer.
I am too. I had a feeling you'd be receptive to some of
this, super receptive to it. The book I think is fantastic. I
think it's really good for parents to read. Even if you feel like some
of it. Maybe there's a lot you cite a lot in the book,
right, So there's a lot of that stuff and maybe people who don't know,
but I can tell you that just that the a little bit. I
read the chapter on what was fantastic, and I just love the apply theory
and the whole thing of meeting the kid where they are. Nothing's wrong with
anybody, We just have to meet them where they are. And I think
we look at things a little wrong. Do you mind if we do one
more thing and take it to a little more practical Absolutely, all right,
we'll do that. We'll take just a moment and we'll do that next.
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YouTube, Twitter, Facebook. Two. I feel like getting close to you
used to be strangers, but now that's not true because I read and hear
all about you. It does not matter if you don't reply. Nowhere friends,
Now that's no lying, and you always say good morning, hello and
by and know where you go, how you feel and why. I always
say, we're telling ourselves on social media more than anything, right, I
mean, we do this all the time. So here's my question for you,
Doc, is that we look at things now, we see what is
society and how much we're influenced by social media, and a lot of times
my theory is that I don't think we're as divided as social media would have
us believe. And then when we believe it, it's a right. It's
all this is a thought. It's hard to argue with that right. And
I think that the loudest are the fringes. And then people get so angry,
so angry about whatever it is, whether it be Megan Rapino and the
US women's soccer team, and they're happy that they lost, and she's been
kneeling and we don't know why. And and my thing is the greatest thing
about this country is freedom. You have to accept that as much as you
can, you know, not for all the things you want to do.
That's part. That's the ugly side. Well, I guess we could call
it freedom. But I wonder like when we see things happening in the world,
and boy, you get so many opinions and so many voices coming at
you and social media, and I think that's what has really led to this
divisiveness that's in the country right now. And then we start to then we
take it too well back in our day, and how soft people are now
and this acceptance of every different thing. And I'm pan sexual, and people
get so angry about all this. And I've always thought, if we were
really to break it down, the fact that you have to declare your sexuality
when you walk in the door, it seems a little ridiculous. It shouldn't
matter, right, what do you do behind closed doors shouldn't matter. But
okay, and that's that's fine. And I understand that many for many,
many years, lives were people couldn't be who they were for many years.
But I do wonder like all this stuff that goes on, because now I
saw something today and it went back to being soft for football. Eric.
I think it's Eric Banamy. He was the offensive coordinator with Yes. Now
he's with the Commanders and so everybody he's assistant head coach, and they're saying
that he's too tough at training camp. Now I can understand where everybody's you
know, I get hurt before the season begins. It's terrible. And don't
get the impression that that's what's happening though I don't either, So I don't
know have we gotten softer this idea? Like if you talk to certain people
like, wow, there's no real men anymore? Well, what is a
man? What is a man by by definition? To you? Is it
somebody that works with their hands? Is it somebody that's emotionally available? Is
it somebody like all these different things? And I go, boy, we
we put so many opinions out there that I think people get confused and don't
know. And I always think, like, you kind of have your own
inner guidance system, you know what the answer is to these things. Just
follow your own inner voice, your own inner guidance system, and you know
what's right and you know what's wrong. So I have three and there's so
many different ways to answer that question. Yeah, well it's all over the
place. Yeah, and I wrote a few things down just to make sure.
I so. First thing is, I'm a big believer that in discomfort,
Right, I think that we are meant to be uncomfortable sometimes and we
can grow a lot, and that we develop resilience and coping skills from being
uncomfortable sometimes. Right. It's one of the things I love about hiking in
the ad arouondex Is. I was just gonna say that forty six peak.
I know people who have wanted to do that and have talked about what a
challenge it is. If I'm, you know, ten miles from anywhere and
uh, you know, I feel like I'm I'm you know, and I'm
throwing up on the side of the trail. Right the next week at work,
if I encounter a problem, I can just remember where I was that
that day, and I know I got through it, and I know,
and I think those experiences are are really important. I think it's part of
the benefit of nature to some extent. I think social media is processed information.
Right, We're to look at it the same way that we look do
processed food at some point, Right, it's it's it's processed information. And
and we already know that the algorithm that they you know that they develop social
media with that most of these platforms run on is made to anger us and
divide us. Right, That's that's what's going to keep our eyes on it.
That's why we watch it. There's also a research are on the biological
end of things that look at plastics, right, thalates, and are you
familiar with any of that? It's we actually men are born now with fifty
percent less toasterone than we were in nineteen seventy six. Right, so the
year I was in I think it started and I was born in seventy six
were men being born now? Boys being born now are generally born with fifty
percent less tosterone, which we attribute to falates, plastics, plastics in the
water. Because I by water by the case, I should go to this
bottle from now on. It only I'm also guilty of it. Yeah,
I went buy it by the case, and I haven't here the fridge of
stocks here. You can't avoid it. It's in everything, you can't avoid
it. It's it's I mean the falates are you know? And I think
I do a good job because every cycle and they say ninety percent of what
were your cycle goes in the ocean. Anyway, there's gonna be more believe
that it would be more plastic than fish twenty thirty four or something like that.
They said, Uh so, I think there's different ways of looking at
it, right. I think in general people we people are more comfortable than
they used to be. Our kids are more comfortable. We don't have we've
got more things to help people be more comfortable. Yeah, right, and
so they a lot of people don't get to experience the types of discomfort during
development that lead to resilience and what we would call, you know, being
tough. Okay, right, Yeah. Part of it certainly is social media,
you know, and then the processed information that we're feeding people, and
then there's no denying that there's something going on, you know, biologically too.
We're just still figuring that out, you know. Valleys is just one
example. Okay, that's that's interesting. I am I boy. I never
thought of kind of the uh the idea of I guess it's always in my
mind, pushing yourself and sometimes I nowadays try to use words that wouldn't be
like grind and all that stuff, because you still got to do it anyway,
but when you grind, it's like right, and I start to think,
but I try to find a different word to associate that with. But
I have found throughout my life that when I was what I would consider at
my best was when I had a routine and it included exercise, and I
would go and push myself and I do now. I went yesterday, I
left here and it was one of these things where I had a bunch of
work and I'm like, yeah, you know, and I really and it's
amazing. I'm trying to figure out how to sort of delegate some of the
things that I'm doing that seem to be important but not for me, you
know what I mean, Like somebody else should be doing this because it just
takes up too much time. And I'm like, I really can't go to
do this workout class. And I went and it's a strength class and I'm
the only guy in this strength class and it's all weights and stuff and you're
squatting and doing it. At one point, the instructor says, I'm like,
how you feeling, Bill Moran, And I go like, I'd get
arrested if I did this in public. You know what I'm saying it looks,
but it's one of these things where I like the idea. I've always
you know, I ran for a bunch of years. I played a bunch
of team sports. I did all that. I like that idea. I
feel best when I'm pushing. It just makes me feel good. That's why
I found I have to get up and run in the morning. I gotta
do it, even if it's just a mile. I gotta go do that
because it just makes me feel good. And there are mornings, man,
I don't want to do it. I can feel like everything feels a little
tighter now, you know, And yet at when I'm done, I feel
great. Yeah, I feel great. And there is something about being able
to recall I got through this, and the idea that this two show pass
is a little more digestible when you can do that sort of stuff, you're
right. I mean, I think that's a that's a big it's a big
deal. And I think sometimes I don't know if it's pushing kids, but
more exposing kids, you know, and the satisfaction you get from stuff.
You look like a guy, I don't know that you work with your hands,
you do things around the house and stuff you can constantly. Yeah,
I could tell. And there is something like make fun of my hands just
yesterday, or we were camping and when and I kid it around the fire,
told me my hands like bust it up. Yeah, okay, But
I've always been a believer like radio was one of these things any and less
so to a podcast, because there's something a little more tangible. It stays
there, right, it stays. But radio it was gone. So you
at the end of the day, you had nothing. You didn't realize you
had no idea as to how you actually did until three months after everything because
the ratings wouldn't come out for that long, So you had no idea how
I feel about therapy, right exactly. Okay, so there's nothing tangible,
so then you would I always thought, yeah, but that's where you know,
working with your hands, hanging a door, you can walk away and
go I did that, mowing the lawn. I did that. There's some
satisfaction in that. And I really think that there's a real benefit for the
person in that. I really do. Yeah, I under I agree.
That's where like climbing the forty six, Yeah, that's amazing, and the
research supports that too. Right where we're looking at I mean that we're actually
learning. There's certain activities, certain exercises, and things that are better than
others in that regard. Right, we're learning the jumping rope for whatever reason,
and dancing. Jumping rope and dancing are in the literature two of the
most effective exercises at helping anxiety and ADHD in some cases. If you the
repetitiveness of it, it's something about using your mind. It's it's because you've
got to really think while you're while you're engaged in the activity, right,
And so dancing too, you know, you're thinking about your moves. You're
you know, with with jumping rope, if you're doing it the way you
would for boxing, right, you're and so there's something about connecting that kind
of mindfulness with the activity. Right. It's funny. I always said that
about racing cars. I could see that only that there's nothing else you can
think about in that moment. Yep, because you're going so fast, somebody's
that close to you. You've got to and there's nothing else. There's nothing,
there's nothing like you could have had the worst argument with your spouse.
However, something that was important or trivial and you're not even thinking of that.
It can't even be in your mind because you're so focused. And probably
the same thing with skipping rope. I haven't skipped rope on a regular basis,
and a long time I loved skipping rope, and I did. I
always loved it. Yeah, that was always. When I grew up boxing
too, we were talking about boxing on the brake and that's uh one of
the UH ants. I think one of the best exercises you can have.
And I prescribe that to my clients. I have clients who come in and
you recognize that there's some clients who aren't getting enough activity. There's people aren't
getting outside enough UH and so you know, I'll challenge them to, you
know, learn how to you know, skip rope so that they can get
get it under, you know, get get it under, you know,
jump twice, you know, or jump once and you know, swing it
twice or Yeah, I'll challenge them to spend as much time outside as they
spend on screen. In fact, a lot of the families that I work
with, you know, I get referred a lot because of the work that
I do with video games. I get referred a lot of people who are
quote unquote, you know, addicted to video games. Right, Usually the
first thing I have to do when I'm talking to them is make sure they
know what I do, because you know that I don't treat video a game
addiction, although some of the work that I do sometimes seems to be helpful
in that regard, But then we end up having to talk a lot about
setting boundaries and figuring out how do we You know, this kid will not
do his homework because he just wants to be on video games, and he
rages every time I try to get him off. And one rule that's worked
really well is tell him that he can spend as much time on the screen
as he spends outside. Once he spends you know, if he spends three
hours outside, he can come in and spend three hours on the screen,
right And almost everyone that solves the problem right there, because now the kids
outside they're having fun, they're getting the benefits of being outside. And then
we come back in and they're doing it to be on the screen. You
know, they don't want to be outside. They're outside because they want more
screen time, but you know, they're getting the benefit of being outside,
they're getting the benefit of holding off on the screen time, so they're not
getting that instant topamine, and then when they go and they play video games,
they enjoy it more. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, boy, that's
interesting because there is that I don't know, the healing power of nature.
There is something about you get outside and move your body, no matter what
the weather is, get outside, you look around your environment, take it
in and move yourself and drink lots of water. We've criminalized natural play.
We've you know, when you and I were kids, my parents didn't know
where I was, right and now you're a bad parent if you don't know
where your kid is all the time. Right Well, I don't know if
they had it up here, but they used to have because we would get
some stations in New York City it's ten o'clock. Do you know where your
children are? I don't know if you yeah, And so okay, those
are the parents that were like asleep at the wheel. I get that.
But and maybe they should bring that back with the Kia boys in town.
I don't know. But this whole idea that, uh, yeah, there
is something and I don't know, because you're right in that now. I
even noticed, like I have a thirteen year old that I find very impressive.
He does not live with me, but he's one of these. He's
very motivated. He uh is, I got a wonderful mind and is very
funny and was up here with me for a week and then went home and
started a business where he's cleaning garbage cans and he was doing that for a
while, and then he was selling T shirts and now he started up yeah,
yeah, Jamison, and he started up then he yes, and he
went out on his own and the interviewed people and you know, all these
different things that I think are just like you could put a governor on that
and and for what. And then at the same time, it's all these
skills that school will say, well, they're not social, they're not there,
And then I go, well, hang out, I go look what
he just did here, and why aren't we adapting that. Not everybody's going
to learn the same way. And but I think like letting kids get out
there and sort of experienced things is a is a better way, and it's
a it's a healing way to do things and to stop always looking over their
shoulder like your client had said a little bit, you know, and it's
evidence base. There's a book that came out recently called Last Child in the
Woods that does a good job of presenting some of that research. My actually,
my oldest daughter right now is studying to she wants to be an adventure
based therapist. So she wants to, uh, you know, get her
bachelor's in psychology and then come and probably to Fish her to get her counsel
degree with me. I hope if she wants fewer loans than she should.
But right now she's looking at undergrad and when we went up to Saint Lawrence
and which is on the tuition exchange with Fishers, so it's all over the
schools she can go to it or reduced rate and uh, most of the
buildings had trees growing in them because the there's lots of research now that says
we retain information better if we learn it around trees, right, And so
we're this is we're just on the precipice of really understanding which would probably go
back five thousand years as you were saying, well the water stuff to Socrates
and others was even longer than that probably, but where they would you would
talk under trees, classes would be outside this idea of nature. It is,
it's a weird it's weird, and yet we shut it off and we've
got these wonderful comforts and air conditioning and big screen flat screen TVs and and
you know, and we're fatter than we've ever been. Society were fatter than
we ever are. This is true too. Yeah, So hopefully it's we're
getting to a point where there's something going to be some integration. Yeah,
right, we're going to integrate, you know, because the big screen TVs
and games and all this stuff is great. Phones are great. They all
sorts of great things, but not when they're at the expense of you know,
the other things that are important life, right, like getting out into
nature and exercising and those types of things. Yeah, I think I think
we're just really starting to understand that. Yeah, that's very interesting. I
really enjoyed this. Doctor Robert Rice, he is the you're the head of
the Department of Saint John Fisher up the graduate program mental health counseling and uh
oh so the graduate So these are for people going for a master's you got
it? Can you get a doctorate there? Now? That is the university
or not in that discipline. There's an edd at Fisher in executive leadership and
we're in the process now of proposing a PhD in counseling. Yeah, that'll
be uh hopefully that'll be in the future. Wow, that's that's great.
And the book is video games and Psychotherapy. I can get this on Amazon.
I would assume Amazon Rutledge as the publisher, so Rutledge as well.
I shouldn't come with like a discount code for for your listeners. I can
get you one a yeah, if you if you give me one, I'll
make sure that I put it out on a podcast and on social media and
stuff too, because I think the book is interesting and I think that parents
anybody. I think that there's applications in the book that you can apply to
life if you can sort of make that transition in your mind where I was
saying, like meeting people where they are that idea of the video game and
saying, okay, this is let's apply it to your life. And here's
the music and what it changed in somebody. And it's amazing, it really
is. I appreciate it. Great work. I'm writing the book. I'm
happy to be a Fisher. Yeah, I'm happy that you're a Fisher too,
But your your art you of our guy, and they seem to do
a pretty good job themselves. So what do I know for doctor Robert Rice.
I'm Bill Moran. We'll see you tomorrow. Welcome big hotel. Didn't
know what to do. I'm trying a TV. You do the letter to
you and miss farting out of dead. Near to Mormy, Here to Steady,