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You do Soccer is going to explode it and it's going to be around this kid. You're the Beatles. Everywhere we went it was the Freddie Show. And with that came the expectation, and with that came the pressure. New episodes of American Prodigy dropped Tuesdays from Blue Wire Podcasts. What is of pardwnox listeners, I am Dan Pavalley coming at you without my fantastic co host Adam Cromwell. I am, however, super excited to keep our team look ahead train a Roland. We're going to be covering the Atlanta Hawks and Memphis Grizzlies in depth today. For the Atlanta Hawks, who are first up, I spoke with Sarah Kay Spencer. She does a fantastic job of covering the Hawks for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Follow her on Twitter at Sarah Underscore Kay Underscore Spence. Spence's spelled spe n ce. After we speak with her, we bring on Sharon Brown to talk all things Memphis Grizzlies. She covers the Grizzlies for the Memphis Flyer. She is also a founding editor of All Heart in Hoop City. She writes for Dime up Rocks as well, and she's also the host of the Shy Show podcast. Be sure to follow her on Twitter. Also a fantastic follow at Sharon Shy Brown. That's at s h A r O N s h y b r o w N. Before we dive into these ultra fund look aheads, just want to remind, implore, beg plead with everyone to continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us wherever you're getting your podcasts. However, even if you're not on iTunes, we really do appreciate it. If you head over there anyway, search Hardwood Knox, throw us a rating five stars. Only write that review. If it has constructive criticism, we will read it. We're always open to that constructive criticism. Most importantly, though, please just subscribe. If if you're new here just listening because you're a Hawks fan or Grizzlies fan that follows Sarah or Sharon respectively, subscribe download our episodes. You won't regret, or at least it won't be the thing you regret most in your life. I can promise you that. Without further delay, though, Let's get to the Atlanta Hawks with Sarah Kay Spencer, and then get to the Grizzlies with Sharon Brown. Sarah, welcome to the Hardwin Knox Podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on and talk some Atlanta Hawks with me. How are you doing today? Thanks for having me, I'm doing great. How did true off day yesterday? So that's exciting and rare this time of year, And yeah, I'm excited to talk some news. A true off day feels like it's rare this time of year. So congratulations to you for that. Hopefully you'll eventually get another one. So you got to be recovering from a whirlwind offseason at this point, and I think the best question to ask to start is it was such a whirlwind and they had more cap space than any other team in the league, and I think people assume that they would spend it in some form. Did you anticipate that it was going to end up being that aggressively, you know, so they had set a few Travishlank had said. Jam Tavishlank has said a few times that we might look to be more aggressive if there are people who, you know, we like out there. I didn't exactly know what to expect because the free agency class and some of the guys that were available. I wasn't sure if I wasn't as high on that free agency class, and I wasn't exactly sure what would happen. But you know, I think this team has been talking about and now it's been I remember the first time Lloyd Pierce mentioned making the playoffs, and that was early marks. Obviously the season got suspended March eleventh. Players have kind of hopped on board that, and I think this franchise just feels like it's time to start improving. I don't necessarily know. Slank is one who won't say, you know, it's not like playoffs or bust or anything like that, but this team I think felt, Okay, it's time to start improving. It's time to start giving Trey Young some quality that's around him, some quality options around him. When you look at the roster surrounding Tray, surrounding some of their main guys the past year, the past two years, it has it's not gonna win games, and the nda they needed to improve. They needed to improve. They needed to give him more weapons, They needed to add more they needed to add more defense. They needed to add a backup point guard, run the offense, and try young stets. They don't score like twelve points if you were you know, whole a whole lot many of things they had to address, and I think they just decided, this is the time we need to do it. We need we need to start, we need to start improving, and we need to do it right now. So I think they had the money and they found the guys who were you know, we're hopping on board in free agency, and you know, I think those guys signed on to to come win. So I think the Hawks basically said, Okay, we have to we have to construct the roster accordingly. So I don't know if I expected to be that aggressive, but looking back, with the most caps based in the league and also the desire to finally get the ship kind of turned around, I think it makes sense. And they end up with in Bogdanovich and Gallo probably two of the top five guys that were expected to maybe change teams. Like we all knew Anthony Davis wasn't going anywhere else when you looked at like actual gettable free agents, like they probably they were probably two of the top five, and so in that essence like ends up being a pretty big offseason win for them. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think one of the biggest things maybe people don't realize, like a lot of people know. I mean, hey, I've written this a ton the Hawks were the worst three point shooting team in the league. Scare the shot thirty three point three percent from three. That's obviously not good, especially considering how decimated like the Warriors were. You know, but when you actually look at the Hawks returning guys that like those returning guys shot at about league average or higher. It was the supporting staff, it was the other players who were not doing very well. So so yeah, now you look at this and you're like, wow, this is going to be a pretty good shooting team if everything goes according to plan, because they added to guys who are i mean, Gallows obviously an elite offensive player, and you know, it's much more shooter, but adds a ton of shooting to a team that desperately needed it. And and Bogie is a Bogie isn't like a very very good fit in this backcourt alongside Trey Young. Like they like his versatility, they like how he can create for himself and for others. So you know, both of those guys are really good at catch and shoot, so they're gonna play really well along Trey Young. It's just Trayam just has a lot more weapons around him. Those guys really beef up the offense. It'll be interesting to see how this defense comes together and you know, but you know, they might have you know, a lead offense and just kind of go offense first. But it'll be interesting to see how throughout the season, particularly if they do get to the playoffs, how they're able to stop teams and stuff like that should help with that. There's a lot of moving pieces with this team, but they're still kind of figuring out. They're figuring out chemistry, but offensewise, yes, those two guys really really boost the offense and this team really needs it. I don't know if this has been maybe it's not. The criticism is in the right word, but it feels like the question being asked is whether Trey Young needs to play more like James Marden where he just commandeers so many of the possessions, or can you get him moving off the ball like a Stephen Curry. And if there's actual criticism, you just mentioned it, like the supporting cast he's played with has been so just below replacement level. How are you ever supposed to get him moving off the ball? They were in like the second percentile or something of offensive efficiency when he was off the court, and when he was on court, he had to carry them to a round the gaverage with Bogey and Gallo and I guess to a lesser extent like Rondo, do you envision them trying to get him moving off the ball and do you think that that's something that he can have an impact on or do you get the sense that maybe he does need to be on the ball to have his best type of impact. Well, Trey Young is already Treya is always always going to be, you know, heavily on the ball, you know, to an extent, because he gives them the best option to win when he's leading the offense. He's got great, great vision, which you know, you can you can see all the time. But I mean, obviously everyone sees this when you see him, you know, threading a past just so and it like blows up on Twitter and goes viral. But so, he gives them the best chance to win with the ball in his hands. Very often, however, they're already moving him off the ball more. This happened in their second preseason game versus the Magic which they they won, and they just looked way better at the shot. I think it was almost forty percent from three. It's a preseason game, so who who the heck, you know, cares like I shouldn't do it. They're already moving him off the ball more, like, well, I remember there's there's one there's one possession where I think it was Bogey who brought the brought the ball up and got it to Tray right in the corner. It was like an open corner three. So yeah, they're they're already doing that a little bit more. And shelike has talked about that before. Obviously he's a Golden State guy to your previous statement, So yeah, he said a lot about how sometimes it's easiest to score when the ball is not on your hands because guys already, you know, people have like triple team Tray before. You know, like he's so visible on the court that sometimes moving him off is actually the best thing you can do for him because it opens him up in so many different ways. So they're already doing that a little bit more. I mean, he's always gonna be on the ball a lot. But I think something they have the freedom to do now that they did not last year is move him off it and kind of just throw a question mark at the defense. Now they've got to now they've got to think a little bit more. Whereas before it was like, well, of course there's going to have the ball. So it adds another element to their offense, and I think that's something that they're going to have a lot of fun experimenting with this season because they have the depth to do it, they have the guys to do it, whereas last year they really didn't even have a backup point guard to or you know, I'm not even going to say just a backup point guard. They didn't have the depth to have a successful second unit, you know, and now you have someone like Gallo coming off the bench, you know, which is kind of kind of kind of funny, like he's obviously a starting caliber guy, but he's he's coming off the bench and it's like, hopefully, cow that that's leaps and bounds, you know, of an improvement. So there's going to be a lot of things they have freedom the freedom to do this year that they didn't work and one of those is experimenting and having fun with Trey being able to be off the ball and creating a little bit more in that way. Twenty twenty has already reshaped how we work and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenge to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical well. Indeed is here to help. Unlike other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need, You can pause your account at any time, and there are no long term contracts. 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I should have purchased it with this so I have not watched pretty much any preseason basketball because I'm in the middle of writing about the top one hundred players of Bleach report and don't want to be influenced by what I see in the preseason that sounds, so please feel free to dunk on any ignorant takes that have been disproven during preseason basketball, you mentioned that Gallon arsn be coming off the bench, and that was something in a vacuum. It makes sense just because he's kind of like an offense unto himself, just because, like you said, he is a good shooter, but he just does so much more in terms of getting to the foul line. His pull up jumper just has like some really great fakes that can get defenders moving. But he's also their highest paid player, and I didn't expect Travis Slank to just come right out and say, yeah, we signed him with the intention of coming off the bench. And so my question is do you see that lasting like all season. Do you think maybe it ends up being more matchup based they're starting five, or they just really committed to having Gallo run this second unit, you know, potentially. I think one thing that important to remember with Gallo is that I don't think he's he hasn't played more than seventy games and seven yeah, yeah, Like he hasn't played more than seventy games in several several years, basically ever since the year he tore his acl which was a handful of years ago. I wish I could remember off the on the spot, but you know, and like last year with the thunder, he wasn't playing on the second night of back to backs very much, is from what I looked up, So you know, there's gonna be I think that was one of the first questions that a lot of people had, is like, how are they How are John Collins and Gallo gonna fit together? How are Clint Cappella and John Collins gonna fit together? How's John Collins and gallagha, you know, all this all this kind of what about Gallo and Clint? You know, because they have kind of an interesting situation in their in their front Corden with John, who, by the way, I led the team at three point shooting last year forty point one percent, so it's not like he can't space things out. But yeah, with Gallo, I think I think that probably my gut says they'll probably kind of find a starting lineup that they're comfortable with and roll with it, but rotate accordingly with what they need. I mean, he's gonna get time, like even if he comes off the bench or whatever. I mean, I would argue that overall time closing lineups or is probably important. But of course you want to of course everybody wants to start, like that's that's always going to be the case. So yeah, I know, I mean, I think that he'll definitely be involved in a ton of offense first lineups, a ton of lineups where you know, okay, we need we need crazy spacing, we're getting to the line, we're doing this, that we're doing that. Like, I think they're gonna use him in a litany of offense first ways. I don't know that they'll I don't know that. I mean, you know, if guys get hurt, I mean, you never know what's going to happen throughout the season. Like, yeah, I could see him starting a few games here and there, but I think for now, I think they're pretty committed to Collins there just because John has grown a little bit as a a defender. He last year was averaging a you know, twenty plus points, ten plus rebounds. So it's not like John is like a really a downgrade from Gallow. You know, they're just very you know, so so Yeah, it's gonna be That's something that's gonna be fun to watch with this team, is that now they have so many different things that they can do, Like, Okay, do they go defense first line up? Up? Do they go offense first lineup? How about a healthy mix? Like what you know, Like it's it's gonna be fun to see how they experiment with that. I can see Gallows starting here and there, but I think for now they're kind of comfortable with John and just using Gallows like a huge advantage off the bench. And I mean Gallo should basically play the four anyway at this point, so that limits the amount of time he's playing at the three. That being said, I would assume they want their five best players on the court together, like at some point where you're looking at Compella, Bogie, Young Collins, and Gallo. How does that like complicate the wing rotation because you have Cam Reddish, you have DeAndre Hunter, you have Kevin Herder, and even Chris Dunn was defending wings for Chicago last year, So like, how do you sort of envision just the wing rotation shaking out for this team after the starting five? Is that even set? Like is it just Cam Reddish is going to be playing with Bogie? Is that how they're gonna work this? Yeah, they've got They've certainly got a ton of depth and riches at wing, which you know, I also say that because even though they acquired Chris Dunn, who was the most important defensive signing, to state the utter obvious, you know, they didn't really they added a lot of offense. You know. They did add Rondo, who's going to be like a cerebral guy, a leader, you know, and if they come playoffs. You know, I liked the playoff incentives to give him some regular season incentive to try. I thought that was very smart, right right. And they needed that though because they lost Vince Carter, you know, so so they need this is still the team. The team's core is still like twenty three, twenty two, twenty one, you know, so they wanted that. But no, Kris Dunn was a very important defensive signing for them. So they're gonna they're gonna need him with some guys who just put the Hawks last year like, and they're just gonna Lloyd has talked about coach Lloyd pers has talked about how Kris Dunn doesn't necessarily look to switch as much as much as he's just like deployed onto a guy that's my matchup. I'm just like, you know, I'm just on this guy. So it'll be interesting to see how they use them, if they want him to do more of that, or if they adjusted more of him. But but yeah, as far as as far as all the Wings go, what's interesting is that they added so they added you know, Bogey, they added Chris Dunn, but they also added they also returned guys who look a lot better like going into this season. That was that was another question is you know, what does this mean for the young Wings? What does this mean for Cam Reddish, What does this mean for Kevin Hurder, What does this mean for DeAndre Hunter? Because they added a lot of guys who kind of overlap, perhaps with the exception of DeAndre Hunter, who you know can play the four, but right now they're playing him at the three, and you know what, he looks really good. He looks much more aggressive, he's getting into the line more, he looks much more confident, and he just looks less I guess maybe hesitant, you know, like that when you're a rookie and you're just confused, like wait, where do I go? But he that's that's that's not really, that's not there anymore because they he just looks so much more comfortable. He looks really good. Cam Raddish has looked really good. He's obviously kind of a little bit more of a defensive guy right now, but his shot looks a lot better. He looks much more in control, he looks much more steady. Kevin Hurder it can really play one through three like. He's a very versatile guy. So that's gonna help him in terms of playing time. He played a lot of point guard last year, and he's one of the best passers on the team. But because he's been hurt so much, people don't see that as much. You kind of think of him as like a Duncan Robinson, just like shooting up threes and then you know, but but that's not really what he is. He actually can't handle the ball really well. He's not you know, he's he's not just a shooter. He's very much he can do a lot of different things. So you know, do those guys minutes get squeezed marginally, Yeah, because you know, you just have more guys who are gonna play. That's gonna happen. But I think that as far as how they look, you know, because I was kind of thinking, you know, if those guys don't look a lot better, who knows, you know, how much they're gonna play. Who knows exactly what's gonna happen with stuff like that. But they look a lot better and they look like they're playing like, you know, hey, we got some competition, you know, we gotta we gotta really turn it up, and they are so, you know, I don't know exactly how that will will sort itself out. I mean, DeAndre Hunter just positionally seems like he'll play quite a bit again. Cam Is you know, good defensively, and he looks like he's getting better. Kevin can play three positions basically. So those guys, I think, I think the important thing for them is like they're gonna have the opportunity to keep developing and keep you know, they're they're still i mean, Cameras just twenty one, you know, so they're still, but they're I think I think a lot of people were worried, like what does this mean for them? Well, I mean it means that they're, you know, they're the competition seems to be doing good things for them because they look really good. They look like they put in a lot of work. So I don't know exactly how it'll end up. All I know is that Lloyd Paris last year had precious few options a lot of times because of you know, guys on the roster who just weren't going to play. And then you know, you had two rookies who were starting, and you know, you just had a lot of guys. You didn't have very many options, and now you have so many. It's gonna be tough. You know, guys are gonna have to understand if we want to win and win at a high level, I have to be okay with playing time to be okay with that. Solomon Hill, I don't know if you've ever spoken with Solomon Hill, but not He's a really fun guy and obviously he's him and Rondo are to the two who are coming off of, you know, off of like being in the finals. And he said a lot of good things about how he's taught to the team about how, you know, regardless of playing time, you got to know that, like, our happiness has to come from winning, and when you have this many guys, like maybe it can you know, Yeah, I can't. If I was trying to figure out before this who would be the one to get squeezed among the three of them if Hunter is going to be able to play to three, and it's probably not going to be him, And they have equity just in best in him because of what they gave up to get him, Like I was not a fan of that move. But I also can't quit cam Reddish, like he shot the ball well so well from three point range, like the latter quarter of last season. Do you buy into that from him? But then there's also you mentioned about Kevin Herder, and I think it's probably the biggest misconception about him. It's like towards the end of that rookie season, like before that year, that's when they started putting the ball in his hands more, and it like took you off guard how much he was able to create. And so it's like, oh, well, he's probably the best like off the dribble score of these three, and that's like the most important skill in basketball. So you just look at these three guys and just me being like a million miles away from the situation, I can't identify which one is gonna get squeezed. I came into this thinking it would be Hunter, but then I come back to the equity they have in him, and you're talking about, well, he's been playing really well at the three, and so you want, positionally someone who can go to the three and the four for you. And so now I'm like, you know what, maybe they need to just get super small play all three of them at the same times, the Hunter at the five. Like, it's hard for me to choose. So do you have any like inkling if you had to guess which one might be the one to see their playing time get Butcher the most of this group, Well, I could tell you right now, it does not seem like it would be DeAndre Hunter. That's that's my inkling, is that it doesn't seem like it would be him just because he's he's playing really well, he's doing He's just I guess the way I would say this, he's doing exactly what they need him to do. This is what they needed from him. And positionally that was as far as like you know, a starting fire, but like wherever they are, that was like the one area where I was like, what are they gonna do with that? I wonder what they're gonna do, and he's he's looked, he's looked really good. I don't think it'll be DeAndre Hunter. I mean, you never know, Like again, it's preseason, so you could you know, once guys like dial things up, once games start to matter. My answer, this might all go out the window. I don't think so, but you never know once minutes actually start to matter a little bit more. But Deandres looked really good, and this is what they this is what they needed from him. They needed him to take a step for defensively, be more aggressive on both ends. That's what he worked on the whole off season. And it looks like it's it's happening so far. He still needs to talk more. Both DeAndre Hunter and Cam Reddish are very quiet guys, you know, kind of by nature, and you know, see they're still learning, so you gotta you gotta talk a little bit more, especially defensively. So so I don't know, but not probably not DeAndre right now would be my answer. Kevin and Cam, you know, maybe a little bit. But everyone, you know a lot of guys, minutes are going to go down a little bit more because now you don't you don't have to now you have good guys coming off the bench, you know, and even guys coming off the bench I think can play a good role on a good team if everything keeps going the right direction. So, but I think the most important thing from just from a you know, from an x AS and O standpoint, regardless of playing time, is that those guys have clearly continued from where they left off last season, which is the most important thing, like for the franchise is that you know, Okay, they've continued, They're going to get playing time, They're going to continue to be able to develop, which was the biggest question. It's just like, oh, no, are they going to get so little playing time that you know, and no, that's not the case. They look good. Do you have any impressions of the Clint Capella fit so far or even just his chemistry with Trey or just how he's moving post heal injury that really nagged him last season. So it's hard to say just yet because Clint There's there's a couple of things that you can tell right off the bat with Clint Capella. Number one is that the high we're not a good rebounding team at all last year, particularly when John Collins was gone for twenty five games. When he was suspended, they were like very much at the bottom of the league. John came back, got a little better, but overall that was a problem for them. Clint very quickly, you can tell is gonna just I mean not that this is a big shocking surprise, but just seeing it firsthand, Clint is already helping them so much in that way. I think I taught to Kevin Hurder about this, and Kevin was like, yeah, I think Clint got like the fourteen easiest rebounds I've ever seen in that if like, he just has a he has a knack for being there. And I mean it's not it sounds so simple, but last year that have didn't have this, But he just has a knack for being in the right place at the right time. And he's also a really really good second effort guy. That's just who he is. He's just a workhorse, really good second effort guy. He's always gonna go for it, always going to be there, always going to put that time and effort in. So right off the bat, you can tell that that's going to be his bread and butter and help them so much. Yeah, as far as how he fits with Trey, I don't think that's I mean, that's that, you know, Clint just gives Trey another you know, running you know threat. But I will stay with Clint right now because he has been out for so long. He looks he already is like, you know, giving them a boost in some ways. But you can tell he is not at one hundred percent as far as like being in game shape. So some stuff it's hard to tell because he really does not look like he has his legs underneath him yet. He doesn't look injured. It's just like, you know, you're trying to like bang with these guys, you know, Dn Lowe, and you're just not you don't quite have your sea legs, you know, under under you yet. So it just looks like and a lot of guys have been very forthcoming about that, you know, Woy Pierce has said, with as much as he's doing out right, he's nowhere or where he will be in terms of just athleticism, in terms of just like getting up and down the court, like conditioning. So right now, it's a little hard to tell exactly how they'll uh exactly how everything will come together on the Clint Capella up front, although he's helping them in some ways already because he's not he's he's not as smooth or as sharp as he will be. He's still he still got a long ways to go. But you know, the guy hasn't played since like January, right, I mean, he hasn't played since the Hawks acquired him from Houston at last season's trade deadline, which I know time is kind of a flat circle these days, no zero concept for any kind of time at all. But yeah, so he hasn't played since January, and he only started feeling better and and started being able to like work out at a normal level, like over the summer. So it's it's slow and study with him, and and I think that I'll be able to give you a better answer on that once he's moving around a little bit better. Yeah. So you know, you're talking about players haven't played since March eleventh, and he played January twenty ninth, was less THI he played. So you're talking about like ten months as opposed to like it's an extra almost two months tacked on and he was injured. Yeah, And and in Houston, one of the reasons why they were so cautious with them is because when he had that injury, he kind of tried to play through it and he said, like, I shouldn't have done that. I mean, because essentially it was like a you know, a bad bone bruise and just a nagging heel injury, which when you're a big guy, you know, you put a lot of a lot of goes into that heel. And he tried to play through it and he said, this has been months ago now, but he said, you know, I shouldn't have tried to play through it, basically, and that kind of like added to it a little bit. So that's why they were so cautious with them, is like, Okay, we're not gonna make you play through anything. We're just gonna let you you know, we're just gonna truly gonna let heels. I think it was the right philosophy, but now it's just like because they took that approach, he really hasn't done much, you know, and you know that's probably good for the idea of like healing, but now you know this is and this is what it's for. You know, it's pre season, Like it's okay if you don't look one hundred percent like who again? You know, these games don't count much like the Hawks have set a lot about how this is an extension of practice. We're just you know, we're scrimmaging against someone who's not us, you know, so this is what it's for. And I think he'll get up to speed, you know, slow and study. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at that online. That online is going the extra mile to make sure you can get in on every possible chance to win this season, from game spreads and totals to team player and coaching props. That Online gives you more options to wager on than anywhere else. You can get in on their season opening bonuses today and start off wagering on wins, division odds, championship futures all day, every day. Had to bet online today and take advantage of all the great sign up hoss. Don't forget to use promo code blue wire all one word at bet online dot ag. That's blue wire all one word bet online. You're online sportsbook experts, and speaking of guys who have not played in roughly a zillion years, I think something that's probably flown under the radar because the off season they had We're not flown out of the radar, but just forgotten. They had the number six pick in the draft, and so you have on Yeko kong Wu, and I know he's been dealing with some left foot stuff. But once he's healthy, do you envision him having a role for this team, because I feel like it's probably easier to commit developmental minutes to guys that you've actually seen play in the NBA before, and now you're talking about, Yeah, he's a top six pick, but he's on a team that clearly has playoff aspirations. And so once he's at full strength, do you see him getting a good amount of backup five minutes or do you maybe see John Collins maybe playing more in that role than him. So right now, John Collins has played a decent bit at the five, but I think some of that is Clint Capella is, you know, coming along nice and slow and you know they're getting him up to speed, and also just a kong Wu not being ready to go yet, although he sounds I think he's going to be reevaluated December eighteenth, so he sounds pretty close to return. Honestly, and he's been doing contact work and stuff like that. So they like that. They consistently say, whether it's Travish Lank, Bloyd Pierce, whoever, they consistently say that they liked John Collins at the four. You know, he can play at the five. He played at the five a ton last season. Big reason for that is because they were searching for answers at center. You know, they have Fernando was not it. They had they had Alex Linn for a while who was struggling a lot offensively. He wasn't, you know, just was struggling offensively. They had Damian Jones who underperformed. They had Bruno who you know, was a rookie and struggling here and there. They had Dwayne Deadman who only played ten games. I mean they picked up I think it picked him up at the trade deadline and he was hurt a good bit. Didn't play very very well while he was there. He only played ten games also, So all that to say, they were center and probably backup point guard were the two positions that they were searching for answers kind of the whole season. And so you know, when you have a guy like John who can just slide over. I mean, sometimes it's tough defensively, but that was the lineup that they had the most success when they played Trey Camraddish, Kevin Hurder, DeAndre Hunter, John Collins together, which only happened in like twenty games, Like it didn't happen very much because of suspensions, moving parts, injuries. That that group actually had a pretty decent net rating, Like they were pretty pretty good together. But they see John Collins mostly as a power forward. I think they'll deploy him situationally as a five, because he can do that. But no, I think on YUCKA will get time. I don't think he'll get a ton of time, but I think he'll get I think he'll be a fine. I think they'll use him as a backup center, so, you know, And some of that is it's interesting because he almost looks like a four, Like he doesn't necessarily look like a he's a he's a little bit shorter than maybe you'd want. But I also, you know, I'm hesitant talked too much about it because I really haven't seen the guy much, you know, like he's you know, obviously we're not going to the practice facility, so I haven't seen him, you know, in any kind of you know, practice situation. I haven't seen him in a game yet because he's not playing, so I'm not exactly sure. But I know that they're high on his ability to defend, which you gotta see how that translates, you know, and I haven't, but I know they're high on his ability to defend. He's a good rebounder. And also they are confident that with time his shot will develop, which it you know, on paper, I was kind of like raising my eyebrows at thought a little bit because he didn't do much of that at usc if at all. But they're confident that his shot will develop over time and that he'll be able to space the floor a little bit for them. So yeah, no, I think that I think they want him to develop. They're very high on him. I think that they'll just kind of use him as a backup center. Exactly how much playtime that'll add up to, I don't know, and it's really really hard to speculate when I haven't seen him play, but I think they'll I think they'll use him, and I think they'll I mean, it'll depend on you know, the time, place game, you know, whatever, But I don't use them. Does their offseason impact their long term view of John Collins maybe the likelihood of whether they given him an extension or not, because if if we view him as a four or five, they like four guys who can play like you know, just four guys you could use the core that can play each of those spots where you have Capella and Will come with the five, and you have Hunter and Gallo now at the four and so does that have any impact on just how they value John Collins moving forward? No, I don't necessarily think so. I think that they. I mean, John Collins has kind of been because obviously he came a year before Trey and Kevin, so he's now he's going into his fourth year potentially. So John Collins has kind of been a cornerstone of the rebuild, you know, from from the beginning of the Travish Blank era here. So I don't I don't know. I mean, it it raises questions, certainly, but I think if they can get a deal done, I think they still like what I think they still really like what John Collins brings to this team. It is kind of interesting construction. But again with Gallo, you gotta remember he's nine years older than John and hasn't played seventy games in a long time with a Kong Wu. We don't really know what we have yet, you know, Clint, Yes, but John's not really a five. They knew him as a four. DeAndre can't play the four, but right now he's not. They're really playing him at the three. So there are like some fit questions if guys do certain things, but then there's a way they also fit together. If that, if that makes sense, they they can, they can make it work. But I think it's just kind of gonna come down to I think basketball wise, I think they gonna make it work. I think it's just going to come down to if they can get a deal done. You know, John has talked about, you know, being in the conversation for a max deal, but I don't know if that's you know, I don't know that that's you know, you see guys who have taken more team friendly deals than that that are kind of on his level and so so so I don't know, I don't know. It might just it might just come down to money. I don't know. But and they might also say, you know, let's see how this works for a year, you know, because we don't necessarily have to figure it out right now, like let's see how it works, let's see, let's see how the roster we put together works and go from there because they don't necessarily have anything to lose from doing that. So it is a big question for sure. I have no idea how to value him, like looking at what he could be worth, Like you want someone at the four who's shooting over forty percent from three and has like a pretty good floor game now too, But like, what do you pay him if you don't view him as like a defensive building block or someone who can at least give you minutes at the five so that you have like a defensive minutes at the fox, you have more of that offensive mismatch. At the same time, I'd be worried about letting him get into the restrictive free agency market next summer, because we saw what happens in a cap poor market this past offseason where they saying it only takes one team and Charlotte comes with that just bonkers, Gordon Hayward offer. There are gonna be more teams like in that like that have cap space next offseason. And John Collins is young and he's a really good player, and so if you don't want to get into him for max money, or you're worried about having two MAX players on the roster because Trey's extension eligible after next year, I wonder if that puts any like extra urgency on the Hawks to maybe want to get an extension done, especially since they've now taken themselves out of the cap space game for next offseason by signing Bogie and Gallo. Well, I mean it is It is a risk obviously, because you don't know who's gonna come in and offer what you know, so I mean, you you make a you make a good point, it is a risk. I mean I do think it. You know, XS and os wise, there are John definitely took a step forward defensively last year. You know, it wasn't like a leap, but it was a step. But you know, I do think that there are some questions about, you know, exactly how good of a defender he's gonna develop into, which I still think he's like taking those steps, but yeah, there there are some questions there, And you're right, like, it is a it is a risk if you you know, if you choose to just let things play out because, like you said, Charlotte could come in and offer Gordon Hayward everything. John Collins is actually right and so so so I don't know it's but you know, at the same time, like do you you know what if you're so far apart, you know, in new questions this time around, because you know, like last year, you can certainly make the argument he took a I mean, he had a statistically best season by far, but he also did not play very much because of that twenty five game suspension iolating the NBA's drug policy. Now, you know, so you know that's that's twenty five games. So like it's a smaller sample size. It's because of those twenty five games that he missed, and also, through no fault of his own or the you know, anyone's own, their season was cut short fifteen games, you know, because they didn't go to the bubble. So you know, it's a smaller sample size that you're working with. There. There are some defensive questions, but he's also he was just offensively excellent last year. One of the few players in the league to average twenty plus points ten plus rebounds, became you know, came out of nowhere shooting forty point one percent from three lead the team, not in a gigantic sample size, but still or not in the I guess a super high volume, I should say rather so, I mean, there's a there's a lot to love about John's game, but I think maybe it'll come down to how far apart are they when it comes to when it comes to money. Yeah, I mean if and you're right, if he wants the max, then there's there's literally no harm in waiting because that's just going to be the same money to keep him next offseason if that ends up being his market, right, And so maybe I guess maybe what you like, one option would be if like, Okay, so you did that last season, let's you can do this season, you know, and let's let's kind of see, let's kind of see where it goes. I'm not exactly sure. I mean, it'll just depend on how far apart they are and how willing they are to, you know, to let things play out. Do you think they're gonna end up defaulting Toronto in that backup point guard spot. Will Kevin Herder maybe compete for some of those minutes? Well done? Can you please tell me they don't plan on playing Done and Rondo together because I just feel like that's going to be a catastrophe that would be interesting. So so I think that, especially initially, they'll probably use Rondo and kind of see how that goes. But he hasn't been playing in the preseason, which is not surprising. I mean, he's he's all, you know, an older guy, and he's coming off of a very intense you know, finals and everything, so that's not surprising. So we haven't gotten I actually have not seen him play yet, Rondo, So I don't know what Rondo will be getting. I don't know what's gonna what's gonna happen with that. But no, I mean I think that they'll I mean I definitely think that they really did need another passer. They did so, and Rondo's still a good passer. You know, he's still he's very cerebral. I think he's going to help them a lot. Like this is a team that did not talk enough on the court last year, especially defensively because they were young and they just didn't have a whole lot of super vocal guys. This year, it is getting a lot better, and a lot of that is because you have guys like Clint who are not afraid to just you know, yell. You have guys who are getting older who are not afraid. You have Solomon Hill who's really loud. So I think particularly at the beginning, Rondo's really going to help as far as organization and using his voice. And then you know, depending on how that goes and how often Rondo plays, then yeah, I mean Kevin Hurder last year was a backup point guard when he wasn't you know, starting on the wing or wherever or hurt So yeah, no, you I mean he brings good passing as well. I think that the Lasso situationally use Brandon Goodwin, who can come up bench and kind of he's like an energy guy. So yeah, I mean there's still there's still like some questions of exactly how that'll go, because you're right, like, how does Rondo fit alongside X y Z guy Chris Dunne. How are we going to use him? Like are we just gonna like, you know, lock him in on a matchup defensively? So so I don't know exactly how that'll go, but I do think that one thing that does help this team that is underrated is Kevin Herder's ability to create and pass, which a lot of people don't look at him in that way, but when you actually watch games in and game game in and game out, that's something that helps them. So if he's on the second unit, you know, even if Rondo's out there too, you have another good pass. So so yeah, the second who's gonna exactly be backup point guard? Like I haven't seen Rondo yet, but that's what all I would assume they would do. You know, talking through this roster with you, it makes me wonder if this team, assuming it's just in firmly in the playoff mix, they're like built to make another move when you look at sort of the excess of options they have. Plus you have like some salary matching fodder with Tony Snell's twelve point two million, and I would just assume, whether he's bought out or traded, that he's just not going to finish the season with this team, although who knows, maybe injuries dictate something else. Do you get that sense too, Like just looking at the makeup of this roster, well, you know, I don't even have to really assume that because travishlank in a availability with media was very open and forthcoming, which you gotta appreciate as a media like you gotta you gotta appreciate when someone's honest. And he, you know, he said that, you know, we're in position because of, like you pointed out, the salary matching capability we have with like the bets we have that you know, we're paying the way we are, and then also the young talent that a lot of people like. And by the way, now we can see this comment was made like a month or two. Now we can see those guys are playing really well, like we've got DeAndre Hunter, Kevin Hurder, Cam Reddish. So you have young talent that a lot of people around the league are intrigued by or like, and you have salary matching capabilities. And travish Link was kind of open and said, you know, potentially we're in He was very he's not committal, but he did say, you know, potentially we're in position to acquire a star, you know, if that were to be made available and if we decide to do that. And he was like, you know, I'm not saying we are. And it's like, well, that sounds like you kind of aren't, you know, there's some some verbal gymnastics there. But but yeah, and I mean, you're you're right, they do have I mean, both of those things combined give you the ability to do that. So so yeah, we'll buckle up. From an aesthetics perspective, I really hope, at least not until the middle of the season that they they're not a team that gets involved in the hard and sweepstakes. Just from a pure basketball aesthetics perspective, I don't want to watch Harden and Trey Young on the same team, you know. I don't know. I don't think that would I mean, and this is no knock against James Harden, who's obviously, oh, you know, a fantastic player. I don't know that. I like the fit not much, which I know a lot of people are like, oh, don't talk about fit, it's about talent. I don't know. But I don't know that that would work very well. I think that, and you know, I think that I think the Hawks are pretty committed to you know, trays our guy, Trace our organizer, trays our guy. You know, I mean, he's they're kind of I don't want to say similar, but you know, they're both I don't know, I think that that would be a little bit of overlap. I don't know that they to me, that doesn't make questions. I would totally agree with you, and I'm sure they would be like good just because James Harden is good. I mean it's four ten thousand points a game. But you know, yeah, I mean you've mentioned their defense too, like you know a thousand times throughout the podcast. If if you're targeting a star, just a player, like it has to be someone who adds something on that end of the floor at this point, like you've loaded up on offense enough. Right, No, that's that's a good point, and that brings me back to you know, we're gonna have to see how this team does defensively. I mean, Chris Dunn will certainly add a lot with that, and Clint already is you know, even though he's not at just speed. But yeah, no, you're right, like if you were to if this team at this point were to add something else, you'd have to be defensive minded. And that's something where with Trey who I will say has looked better defensively through you know, the wopping sample size of two preseason games. He had like a scrappy like strip on Aaron Gordon and I was like, all right, right, so he's I think he's like you know, and he said he's looking to improve defensively. But with his size and with the way he struggles on defense, you kind of have to structure of the team that way anyway, right, kind of have to surround him with above average to good defenders in order to have a good defense. And they feel I think they feel that they've done that a little bit with like the way they can play Cam Ruddish with him and stuff like that. But you know, we'll just have to see exactly how how that goes. But he has looked a little better defensively. What's gonna be the do you think the most common closing lineup for this team? And I'm sure just given the breadth of options that they have, it will be very matchup based. But if you had to sort of pick like the five that you think are going to end up closing, you know, the most crunch time games, who would be your picks? There? Oh? Right now, I'm writing down names as we talk. So are they trailing or leading at this time or is the game tide? Give me some scenarios here let's just I've let's let's just say plus or like the NBA dot com like definition plus or minus five points like they or unless you just think that it's going to be so fluid because they're built to do crunch time that way, because I think the natural inclination would be just put your five best players on the floor. But your five best players, I don't know what like that ends up being defensively Yeah, but you but your five best players might not be defensively strong enough because if one of them is like above average, because if you put Gallo out there as opposed to DeAndre Hunter, then you're not I don't know that you're going to be defensively strong enough. So you know, so I guess that's a good point. So if you're ahead enough, it doesn't matter, right, So Trey, maybe situationally, like let's say they're they're ahead by like one, you know, maybe situationally, I could honestly see Chris Dunn out there if they're trying to be you know, defensive conscious. Clint Capella for sure. DeAndre Hunter said, I'm going way out of order. But people can assume where Capella doesn't play with three uh uh Trey, Chris Dunn, maybe, DeAndre Hunter probably John Collins and Capella maybe and the only thing, like Bogie would like, you know, start, So I guess the only change there is putting Chris Dunn out there and who knows, But like really that's just kind of an answer off the cuff, like who knows. But if they were, if they were really trying to be defensive minded. But at the same time, if you get like an open shot, like you have Trey right there to like knock it down, you know, so then I would probably the only change I would have is Chris Dunn out there if you're trying to keep a lead, you know, and and he's out there guarding, you know, whatever wing has. Like let's say, you know, dominated the Hawks last year and you're like, okay, we're putting press on him. So that's probably the only change I would make from the lineup the they have been starting. But it'll be it'll be situational. I'll ask me again in a few weeks. Is there a chance that Trey Young ends up being like the only crunch time lock for this team or is it like no, John Collins will definitely play down the stretcher no, Clint Capella will be in no matter what. Like I'm having trouble identifying the second player who they just won't move out of their crunch time line up no matter what. I think probably Clint. I think it probably an up to speed Clint. I would put in there because defensively, you need that room protecting guy. And he also is very vocally important for them, Like he really has made a difference I think organizing them, and you can just you can just tell as far as just holding that back line like that, that's something that they're they're really getting a boost from him. So I would say a healthy Clint. I say a healthy Clint is crunch time, yes, because I mean it depends, maybe because Collins can play the five and and did so very well last season, you know, But defensively I would want at the five French time. Is there if you were let's say you're just Lloyd Pierce. Is there like a quirky lineup, offbeat lineup that you would try to trot out given this personnel at any point this season, no specific situation, just to test out and see if it works. Probably probably seeing what Gallow can do at different positions. So you're just going like offense first and just you know, I would honestly be intrigued with like a Gallow at the three Collins at the four, Capella at the five and just kind of seeing what happens there and then you know, whatever they want to do at the one and two. And then also I think as far is second unit, I think I'm just this is a less specific answer, but just swashing a lot of lineups last year that we're you know, second unit struggles and they really couldn't do much at all, you know, without Trey. I think I'm interested to see Rondo like a Kevin Hrder a Cam Raddish together and just seeing how much that can help boost them, you know, as far as as far as just passing and the ability to hit guys and the ability to get open shots. See what I would really like to see, and I have one hundred percent confidence that we will not see, is the Clippers. When they had Gallow, they tested him out at the five and it was a very small sample size, but they just annihilated everyone. I would love to see Gallo and Trey and then Hunter done and Reddish just surround them with three defenders and see what happens. I don't know why you would want Capella, Collins and Bogie on the bench at the same time. That's just a lot of like money and equity wrapped up. But I would just love to see it for like a few possessions here and there at a time. I'm a sucker for the small ball five lineups, and so oh that I love a small ball five lineup. You know, they actually did do that in their second preseason game versus The Magic, which was day before last. Again losing track of time, but they did put Gallo at the five for like like a minute, you know, yeah, yeah, like sixty seconds of Gallo at the five. But he's just such a dynamic guy, and honestly, no matter where they put him, it's just it's just hard to emphasize how much guys like him and Bogie boost this team, you know, and and a lot of it is just you know, they just they just added quality guys, you know, and it's just it's just been fun already to kind of watch Trey Young, who's you know, everyone's just kind of like slowly warming up, you know, it's free. But already, it's just been fun to watch this team have depth and have options because last season, if one guy wasn't there, you were kind of like, what are they going to do? And now they have so many options and it's been fun to watch. And in the small sample Skuy, so far, what do you think is, you know, given everything that they've done, and you can factor in if you think they're going to make a major change or not at all, what would be a realistic you know, win total and Eastern Conference finish for this team? I checked this morning. Their win total over under is set at thirty six point five, which, for people like me who can't think in seventy two game terms, equates to forty two wins in an eighty two game season, which seems they're definitely questions about the defense. And I am worried about teams that did make a lot of changes over the off season, just because there wasn't really an off season or a training camp. So like, how long does it take to tie together forty two teams? Low? Like forty two equivalent? Obviously it seems it seems low. I think one thing, like I'm exactly like you, I cannot think in seventy two game terms. My second season covering the Hawks, and I'm like, I just got used to eighty two games, so so yeah, So it's it's hard to think in it's hard to address for seventy two. One thing, another thing that I'm struggling to picture in my head is how good the rest of the East is going to be because we've got a healthy Kevin Durant, you know, like like you've got you've got other kind of other teams. I'm just like, Okay, now Charlotte's got Gordon Hayward, you know, like how it's hard for me to I guess comparatively put the like if every time I think about their win total, I feel like I think of it as far as where would they have been last season? Because last season a really good benchmark for the Hawks is like, okay, can we be better than the magic? You know, like can we can we like hop above that level? Are kind of like locked in at like number eight ish, it seems can we be better than we get to that point? But now it's it's so hard, it's so hard to guestimate with how different the East looks this year, I guess, Okay, so thirty six point five is like kind of the line I think they have the potential to do a little better than that, But I don't know if it will happen, because that assumes everyone stays healthy, and that assumes that Chris Dunne fits in as a as a defender that's going to really help them. You know, I think he will, but I just haven't seen it yet. He's not and he's probably gonna be out for the first two games of the season with an injury. So I'm kind of banking on if I were to say they're doing a little bit better than than that, I'm banking on him being a really good matchup defender for them. But I think they have the potential to do a little bit better than that. But I don't know. I don't want to sharpe that if that makes sense. I season as the over on the podcast I did for the over Unders, So you're probably better off going in the opposite direction of what I chose for that. But it's still kind of the same question this year though, that you were asking yourself last years. Can it be better than the magic? Because well, and I guess the play in tournament matters. I haven't really started thinking about the postseason. It does. That's something That's really intriguing to me too, because it's like if you can get to a point where even just mentally, like so last season, and I've referred people who are listening to this, who've read anything I've written, or probably like, please stop referencing this, because I referenced it all the time. But last season, there was it was in mark the kind of the beginning of March, so not long before the season got so spended and the Hawks were playing the Grizzlies. They played two games against the Grizzlies, and the Grizzlies we're fighting like tooth and nail to hold on to their speed, to their spot, you know, and you could just tell like the Hawks were kind of like your season's kind of over and you know it, you know, and the Grizzlies are like no, like you know, like so it's funny how they're can be like that mental aspect to it sometimes, like Okay, if they get to it would be interesting to see this team in and it's it's a very different looking team anyway, but you know, like if they're in it late, I could see them, you know, getting to that play in tournament, which I think is a really cool idea. I think that really incentivizes teams late in the season and just you know, late in the season, when you're so far in the and the when you're so far, when you're so low in the standings, you kind of almost feel like, what are we're playing for? You know, we're kind of nick something to shoot for in the future. So right, it's it's a it's a fun concept and I can see them kind of surging if they get into a situation like that. So because you're playing those like late meaningful minutes and they just didn't have that last season. Yeah, So so I guess I guess I would take the over, but of the I guess the thirty six point five. But don't sharp be that it's already sharp you on my end. So but it is the same question if you're looking at the top eight spots, like can they be better than the magic because I think if you look at the east barring something seismic, Bucks, Raptors, Celtics, pacers, heat sixers, and nets, uh, those those are seven playoff spots right there, and so there are there are three more because of the play and tournament. But you probably just want to be like in one of the top eight, because then you have to lose twice in the play and tournament to get bounced. And so it's you know, Washington, I guess it's the question can be better than Washington and Orlando. I've already written off Charlotte. I know some people think that they might be frisky. I'm out on them. I think the Bulls end up tearing it down. So those are the two teams that I'm looking at. You want to be better than one of them so you can finish in ten. But I just and I honestly don't have a feel my guests would be that they would be the eighth one of the eight teams. That's where I haven't penciled in now. But the East is just it's so wonky at the bottom. It's it's always kind of yeah, it's well, I say, it's always. This is my second season covering the team. It definitely it definitely gets a little wonky at the at the bottom for sure. What I've seen at them so far, if they can if they can be the offensive team that they seem like they can be, and if they can just be good enough defensively, then I think that they I think that this team can be you know, much much better. But you know, again that's assuming everybody stays healthy. This is a weird season because we're still in a pandemic, so you know, there's gonna be a lot of you know, I mean, look look at what has happened to this college football season. You know, so who knows who stays healthy, how how the season goes. But I do think they have the potential to be much much better. That's where of their options coming handy. And I hate analyzing it like that, but because it's found to have the COVID scares, like having so much depth is going to be big this year. I think that'll be a big That'll be a big benefit to them because they have so many guys who can go in there. And I think you won't. You're not gonna dip too much. You know, you're not going to take too much of a hit as first production. But you know, like you said, you hate to look at it that way because hopefully everyone just stays healthy and no one gets ill. My final final question for you is how much pressure given all the changes that the Hawks made, is Lloyd Pierce under this year and is there any iota of truth too. We saw reports come out that his and tre Young's relationship isn't the best I guess would be the best way to put it based off what we heard. Well, I think that with I mean, I think that when you've been talking about the playoffs since March. When March when it was kind of almost in an interesting time that he first said it, because you know, the games I just mentioned about Memphis when they got blown out, that was when he first said that, I think we're gonna make like playoffs is the next progression for us, the next step of the progression for us. And I was kind of like, well, you know, just because just because of what had just happened, you know, and they were just they were struggling. You know, I think when you've been talking about the playoffs for so long and players are on board with it, and now regardless of that, now that you have a roster that is built to win more, I don't know exactly how many wins now that right that's my stance right now, I guess, but now that you have a roster that is just you know, the past two years and last year that I'll speak to because I was there, it was difficult because just like how a lot of people who don't really watch the Hawks will kind of blame Trey Young for them being bad. It's kind of like the same thing with Lloyd Pierce, but like he didn't really have anyone to go to, you know, Like they had kind of five guys and it was they were rebuilding. He didn't really have anybody to go to that often. So it's like, what do you do? You know, it's it's he was in a hard situation. Now I think he's in a good situation. So yes, I do think that there's I guess a little bit more because this is a roster that can do much more than, you know, than what it's been capable of, the capable of the past few seasons. So you want to meet or exceed those expectations. So by that nature, yeah, I mean I think there's a little bit of this is the first time maybe he's had more like expectations, you know, on him, So you have to you know, rise to that occasion. And it looks like he's got the guys to do it, you know, so you just have to see what happens there. I think as far as things with Trey, I think it'll be. I think it'll be interesting this season because I think Trey is someone who you know, really wants to win. There's kind of a I guess stigma around him that like he's all about individual stats and it doesn't you know, oh, he can't win, he can't win. But again, the roster wasn't built to win, right like right, like you gotta be I feel like a lot of people who are saying that you got to be realistic about what they had, you know, and you know, but a lot of times Trem's the only name people know on the teams. They'll blame it, you know what I mean, like you have to kind of look into wait, why weren't they good? So I think this season, I think that Trey is gonna be you know, he it was funny people who are like, oh, he's about individual stats, like, well, I saw him after losses. He's not a happy camper, you know, he's not. It's it's I felt like that is not a correct I guess stigma. So I think this season he will be maybe happier because because because he's on it, because he wants to win, and now he has the roster to do so, you know, if that if that makes sense, not to not to speak for him, but he's a guy who wants to win, and he wants to win in Atlanta, and now he has the pieces to do so. So I think a lot of things, you know, being on a losing team is not fun, and I think a lot of things are are going to be set up for success as far as as far as Trey as kind of the face of the franchise because he has a better roster around him, and I think, you know, I just think this roster overall is kind of set up for success more. Uh, is there anything I didn't ask you about this team that you wanted to talk about, or anything that the national media misperceives about them, any ultra spicy Nathan Night takes, you know, not not really. I think the only I think I kind of said it in my last answer, which is that this is going to be this year is going to be a much better measuring for Trey Young, for maybe maybe Lloyd Pierce, for just Atlanta overall, because now they have the pieces in place, you know, before it's just hard to it's hard to measure with the roster that they had they were rebuilding, they weren't supposed to be. I guess they weren't built to win necessarily. They were rebuilding, you know, and now now they feel like they're you know, nearing, they feel like they're at the end of their rebuild and now they should start winning. So this year is going to be the better measuring stick for like, Okay, Trey Young, what what can he do with this team? Lloyd Pierce, what can he do with this team? Whereas before just kind of hard to measure with the way that things were. So I think this year is going to be a really fun season for for kind of assessing that and just watching them play. You know, it's just a it's a better team, you know, and so so I think this year is gonna be, you know, a fun one for Atlanta. Sarah, this was great. Thank you for giving me so much of your time. Number one. If you guys are not following Sarah on Twitter, remedy that post taste, She's at Sarah Underscore k Underscore Spence spe n Ce. She covers the Atlanta Hawks for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Once more, thank you so much, and I'm sure I'll be bothering you again down the line. Yeah, this was so fun. Thank you so much for having me, and we'll have to do this again. Sharon, Hi, how are you doing tonight? Thank you so much for coming on the Hardware Knots podcast. Thank you for inviting me, glad to be here. Are you ready to allow me to pick your brain to talk about the Memphis Grizzlies. Yes, go ahead, I'll start with their you know, offseason in general, and we're going into this season. You still have Jaren Jackson junior is banged up, Justice Winslow's still banged up. Their off season overall was relatively quiet. Is it fair to say that they're not overly concerned with sort of matching last year's finish where they were in that playing spot and had a chance to get to the postseason. It just seems from where I'm standing, like their actions are that of a team that's just playing the longer games still, even though they had some unexpected success last year. Well, I think they are playing along game. But the players them sales. I think they want to win because they thrive off of people counting them out. That's that that's their model where when people they want to prove people wrong. So it's just like I think they're just gonna go out there and play and play hard every game and try to win. They don't want to lose. What if they lose, they lose, but their mindset is to try to win. It was kind of that a little bit last year too, where I think nationally they were at least just like completely written out of every meaningful conversation. And then the motor with which they played, coupled with obviously John Morant going boom like that really made them such an interesting watch and such a threat on a night to night basis. Yeah, because you know, like he says, and like they say, they put their shoes on this like everybody else, and they feel like they can compete with anybody. And then when people count, some app count them out and then boom, there they go. And the people say, well, I'm surprised this then the other, but hey, there's their model. They want to win, regard if people camped them out or not. I'm rat coming off just an absolutely monstrous rookie season. I'm looking at that. You know, his first year. For a minute, was there anything that he did that really surprised you or surprised you most? Well, I you know, it's just like he's a dog and he wants to win. But some of those dunks, like oh wow, and that almost dumped against Kevin Love. Yeah, I was just like wow. It's just like it just seemed like the more he played, the more he amazed you. And you look at it like I wonder what Jaw's gonna do tonight. I wonder what he's gonna do. You know, tonight He's gonna do this and do that. It was awesome. So it's I can say that his entire first year amazed, and I think I'm not the only one. No, I but personally like and I'm not. I don't really dive into college basketball, so I only get I say, like I get a little higher than ankle deep around the draft. I just couldn't. I didn't know he was supposed to be such a good pastor. Like it's not just even he's a good pastor, he's like a transcendent pastor. And so that's something that was just fun to watch from him. Right. And then it's just like his court v sasion is like really good, you know, and just like some some I mean, his assists could have been higher if you know the players on his team actually, you know, got the book. Isn't everything? It was amazing to see, is there is there? Like you know, I think from a far and you see on social media everyone gets concerned with how he lands after dunks, Like is that an actual thing that concerns fans where they're seeing him land, because just from my end, it's like I get nervous every time I see him coming off the rim. Yeah, because I saw him, you know, for a couple of times the preseason. I'm like, oh, oh, you know how he's all right. I think he's learning. They are teaching him how their own land better. And then he put on you know, a little muscle and everything. But I think he's gonna be fine. Do you think that it's fair to expect kind of like another sizeable leap from him after how good he was this past year? Do you think we should probably be more prepared for just incremental improvement because I think it's you know, the and you I don't even know you could say he made a jump just because it was his first year, but him being able to surprise everyone because they weren't expecting that this sort of next phase a little harder because he's already in that stardom territory, and so to build off of that is where it gets tough. And I also feel like, though we need to remember that this is his second season and you know, defenses they're going to be you know, he's not going to be so new to them. So do you expect, like a I don't want like a huge jump from him this year? Would you be more on the lookout for some incremental improvement, whether that's you know, maybe he's more consistent with his off the dribble three, taking more threes in general, whatever that may entail. Well, I think he's gonna be bitter with three three point shot overall. But I think he just has to, you know, take the right shots because what he did in a Bubble one game, he just shot two many three and then it just like, you know, that's not his game. You know, his game is going to the rim. But I think he's gonna be He's he's worked on that this off season. But I think he's gonna have a better three point shot. But I don't think he needs to shoot like seven a game, you know, I don't that's not that's not his game right now. So I think he probably will get better with three point shot. I was surprised I caught. I've been trying to watch not too much preseason because I'm writing, I'm doing player rankings right now. I don't want to be too influenced by them, but I caught. I don't even remember who he was playing, but he hit like and off the dribble three in the preseason. I was just surprised at how quickly he went to it. It seems like he's a lot more confident in it. But I definitely see the you know, the logic behind what you're saying where you don't want to, you know, turn him into someone who settles because kind of at his heart, the heart of his game is just he can create chaos when he's really inside the arc and putting pressure on the rim, and that's probably where he's going to be at his best. Right But yeah, and at one shot, I shall solid that he had an awkward three, you know, like he was shooting like Jeffer and I was like, whoa, yeah, awfuly they go in the way he shoots it, shoots it. I'm like, oh, okay, because I was the one who like have him Jerryman talking or whatever is he like, you know, do like that. But yeah, I'm you know, I'm expecting his three point shooting to be better, But I just don't, like you said, I want him to settle settle for threes, you know when he's best at going towards the back. Best you mentioned Jared Jackson Junior last season was it was interesting. The way that he can score is just most impresses me where I think you you know, you can just not realize he has twenty plus points per game because they feel like they're coming almost entirely within the flow of the offense. I think a lot of people have already noted, just like the value he brings as a shooter, on the type of volume he's taking once he is healthy this year, do you see his your offensive game being tasked with expansion at all since this team still is kind of looking for that secondary creator, or do you expect them to use him, you know, much in the same way as someone who just really changes the shape and scope of the floor because he's stretching defenses right, and then I think they're gonna use him the saying, but I know people want him to rebound more, but it's just like he only he rebounds when he has. So when you have jonis Van you know, on the floor with him, Jonnis get the book of the rebound. Janiaron stands out on the perimeter and then it's just like when Jonnis is not in, that's when Janaron do most of his rebounding. But to me, you know, people we talk about small ball, we talk about this and that, but people want to judge him because he don't rebound better. But he's like the probably the best shooter they have on the on the team right now, right so he's a He's just a sixty eleventh guard. That's the way I see him. And I don't think that I I don't think the rebounding should matter. You know, even though he's sixty eleven, he's tall, but you know, spec sixty eleven guys to shoot that MANI three, he's like he does right, And so I mean on the offense, he's definitely gonna be pulled further away from the basket, so you can't expect him to do too much damage there, do you see. I guess the main concern would be just you know, his defensive boards if they decide to use him at the five more so that you're not going to have you on his Valanciunist on the court with him. Do you see that is a lineup that they once again Jackson is healthy, that they might lean on more. Do you think this team kind of uws him as someone who you know, I don't want a pigeonhole to a position, but maybe someone who always needs to what doesn't need to, But it's always going to play with another big whether it's a Brandon Clark or a Valanciunist. Right. So it's just like, because you know, it's like when Brandon is on the court human engineering, Brandon probably give most of the most of the rebound, but I think he's he's probably working on it to get more rebounding. But it's just like that's just not his game. It's just not you know, sometimes he'll get seen, sometimes he'll get worn or two. But but then people we need to look at what else he does. You know, he'll get a bluff or still here or there. But it's just like rebounding. Other people get the rebound because you have guards. Like the end of the Milton is a big rebounding because he'd be looking at him. He's like the shortest guy on the court, and he'd be like, man, how did he get that rebound? Oh? Because it's just like with the team, it's not just one person rebounding. You know, some of the guards, you know, they have get a lot of rebounds to like Job, he has a lot of big rebounding numbers. So it's just a it's a collective theme with the team. But he he should get better. But I look at him as a sixty eleven guard. Well, just to me, I'm just looking at what he does on offense, that's obviously totally fair. Uh. The player that I think, you know what Jaw did it was it was the number two pick in the draft, and so yeah, it was surprising and impressive. But like those are the I guess it's easier to accept that. Uh. The Brandon Clark is the younger player on the team. That really caught me off guard last year just with all the things that he could do. And I know there was some hype like leading up into the draft for him, but I was personally just taken aback with how much of a comprehensive impact he had. What was it about him that impressed you the most during his rookie year? Well, it's just like he his shot, you know, with him shooting at the rim. It's just like he was really efficient. He was a really efficient across the board. But I don't think he needs to shoot you know, that many threes sometimes and he was just efficient across the board. But to me, I didn't like him in the starting lineup when Junior was out. I thought he'd better suited for the bench. But he said that he's you know, he's he said that last last season he wanted to probably be on the bench more. But this season he's like open to it, you know, his second season, it's more open to you know, playing with the starters if he has to, because I thought he was better suited because it is this seem like he plays will with the Anthony Milson entire zones. It's just seemed like they build that kind of camaraderie to make them like, oh, there's guys contribute to like them being a top five bench in the league. Yeah, Brandon Clark, you know you mentioned like kind of his shooting from all over the floor. It was I think the big thing was his efficiency on floaters was just out of this world. And even you know, you mentioned him like not maybe taking so much threes and hitting them at a thirty five point nine percent clip as a rookie even on I think it's three point of tenhor it was below fifteen or something like that. Was even like he was a player where it was, Oh, he was just more efficient from all over than you would have imagined. You know that there was the floater that received so much of the attention, but he was just like across the board from basically you know, every huge zone. I'm just so efficient for them offensively. The one thing I am wondering, and it's sort of whether he comes off the bench or winds up starting at some point. Do you see him and jar Jackson Junior as a viable front court pairing when you're when you're looking at the defensive end, yes, Because okay, so I remember a couple of games, right, I don't know which gaming was, but when they had Jeering in Brandon in the year at the end of the game, I was like, oh my god, all those blocks and all this and I was like, wow, we need to starting lineup because I think it was job the Anthony Jeering and Brandon. I don't know which other player it was, but I was like, oh my god, because every time you know, like oh, when they went down the floor on defense, they were blocking shots, they was doing you know, deflections and everything. I was like, wow, well, we need they need to in the game like this with these players. But but I think, uh, Brandon and Jarring gonna play really uh great together. I will say, like, uh, you know, doing the quarantine like when the the high eights or whatever, getting closer and then they're close and they feed up each other and learning from each other. But I think they're they're going to play very well with each other. I will say of like front courts where you would have you know, two like let's say they're not traditional bigs, but two actual biggs. They would have to have like just some of the best collective mobility in the league rather to a relative to other front courts that aren't starting, you know, like a wing at the four or even at the five right now, right and then you just don't know how they will feel, you know, if Justice Winslow is on the floor with them, or is it Dylan Brooks or whomever, cayl Interesing, just have your impressions of that Justice Winslow trade changed it all given just how banked up he's been where it seems like he's always just like so close to making his debut debut, but then it never gets there. I think the right before the restart like that was the one that was just and everyone was so interesting to see how he would fit there, because in so many ways, it feels like when you look at the top of the roster, like he's exactly what they're missing if he's the player he was in twenty eight twenty nineteen. But they did give up, you know, not a ton of like asset value, but they did give up a lot of flexibility to get him. And so now you all of a sudden have to worry about not just the injuries that he's dealt with, but how those are going to impact him on the floor. And so do you think that, you know, dramatically increases the risk level or do you still view him as like someone who's going to be a really good fit with this roster. I think he's gonna be a really good fit with the roster. And to me, I just feel like people are too hard on players who have injuries. It's just like injuries is a part of sports, it's gonna happen, Right's gonna happen. Sometimes it's Luke injuries. He's like man because it's like in the bubble, you know, before Bubble play, he was really exciting, you know, to play. He was hype, and then you know, the freak injury happened in practice. But I think he's you know, he's working hard to get back. He's been working out with jar and Jackson Jr. As Will. The team has a good camaraderie, and I think he's gonna do Will once he's healthy and get back on the court. And no, no injuries are good, but he just seems like he's dealt with so many annoying ones over the you know, dating back to even just before he left the Heat, where it was like the hip, the back, and then it was the back again, and then it's the hip again. Those just seemed like incredibly annoying injuries to deal with, especially for a wing who a lot of what he's doing on defense, like his pride on his mobility. And again, all injuries are bad, and he could do something to his name that's gonna hurt him just as much. But to see these hip and back issues crop up you know twice basically in the past two seasons, Like that really does have to suck. Yeah, yeah, it really sucks. And you know, it's just like he really wants to play. But you know, and I think he just has something to prove, you know, that he's not injury prone like people would say that he's you know, I just think, you know, it's a it's a good group and I think he's gonna do will once he's healed. Do you how do you see him fitting with John Morant specifically, just because the best version of Winslow we've seen, the heat were really given giving him freedom to work on the ball, and so that does overlap a little bit with Jaw even though they do need another shot creator. So do you see this as an instance where maybe they you know, stagger their minutes a healthy amounts that he can get some run with players who don't need the ball as much and who he can help create four But do you think ultimately because I think if you want to you know, long term, or if you want to close tight games that you're in contention to win, you probably want those two on the court because there are two of your you know, five to seven best best players right now. Do you do you see like a clear path to them fitting together when they're both on the court. Yeah, I think it is because like uh, sometime last year, Old Jah he played off the ball when they had ties because they had if they had ties on the floor with him sometimes the Anthony and whatever. What, I think Ja Jaw is gonna adjust He's he's really going to just he really don't need the ball in his hand, you know, he really doesn't. So I think there there's gonna be adjustment in adjustment, and I think they're going to work we else together. I think when you watch Jaw too, which helps is you don't get like the just some of the other like a even a Luca don Chiche vibe, where it feels like he needs to be on the ball to have an impact. With job, like you kind of get the sense that there's so much else that he could do where you know, if he's more confident in the three point shot, there's obviously the catch and shoot three, but he does have the size to even do damage, you know, just off cuts just to get moving around in the half court. And so I would be one of the reasons that I would really like to see Justice Winslow get healthy and stay healthy. Aside from watching Justice Winslow himself would just be to see what maybe he could do to alleviate the offensive creation pressure that that is on Job Morant right now, right because like some of the job allows last season was from random Park. So I'm, you know, I'm we hoping that, uh, that that can be the same for just so let's fast forward to when uh, Justice Winslow is healthy. How do you kind of see the wing rotation shaking out? Is it Winslow and Brooks are gonna be the starters and then Melton's gonna maybe you know, you look at him as a guard, but he defended up a lot last year. Is he kind of that first two three off the bench? Will Desmond Baine have a roll? There's Grayson Allen have a roll. There's John Concher as well. It feels like this team is just it has a lot of options, and I don't know that any of them are really sure things. So I wouldn't want to be Tylor Jenkins right now right. My thing is this, I think that the starters on are going to be decided upon matchups. I think that's what I think because like last last season, like doing the injuries, you didn't know who's gonna start. It wasn't a sit, you know, they that the stars are based on the match up, because where are you going to have John Morant? You're gonna have Jenn when he says you're gonna have a Jonas And then like the other the two guard and the smallpod. I think those like interchangeable because sometimes he'll switch dealing Brooks over to the small Ford. So I think it's gonna be interchangeable. And I think maybe justice in dealing with start together, and I think maybe I'm not sure, Like I said, I wouldn't want to be Taylor Jenkins right now, but I think the start, the start is going to be based on match I will think looking my guests would be I should say, is just looking at the roster that of sort of the I think you can obviously pencil Winslow, Brooks and Melting if you want to throw them into that loop too. I'm into the fold. It feels like between Baine and Allen and contrary like whoever, maybe he's able to establish himself is more reliable shooting, since that's what it would seem that this rotation does need the most or those complimentary floor space? Serious? Yeah? And then I think I think again, it's just like sometimes whose stars is really I don't know why it's so important to me? Important is who finished the game? Yeah? For sure, who finishes the games? Who could if you need shooting, you know, because like Tyler Nicklas, he's really good at finding the people who were in the game because like Safe, for instance, if y'all is not having a good game, he can replace him with someone else that's having a good game. So I think all this is based on mess ups. Would you loop Kyla Anderson into that as well? Not obviously in the context of the starting lineup, just you know, what he does is he's like kind of another layer shot creation. But because his range is so finite on the floor, it can shrink stuff in the half court. And once you have Jackson and Winslow healthy, those feel like the guys that you should want to see, you know, Winslow being able to play the three, four, Jackson being able to play the four or five. Is there a chance that's especially if some of these other younger wings, like if a ban comes out and he's shooting the ball, well, is there a chance that Kyle Anderson would be sort of the odd man out in this wing rotation. Or do you think that Memphis this season is gonna maybe spread the you know, for lack of better phrasing, just like the wealth of minutes around right, That's that's what I think. And who has it going this night? Who has it going that night? Because I really think the rookies are really gonna come off the beginch like safe safe for an answers if ban you know, he come off the bench and then he's just like he starts starts going like twenty points. I mean, yeah, I mean he's gonna be in the starting lineup. Why not? Why not? But I think everything is based on matchup. But it's pretty fun to see that they have enough players to feel the roles and everybody know their role, and then it's just like they don't have any really cockiness or anything, and then they know what they're supposed to do when they play. To give between is do you view or let me phrase this way, who would is more important? Do you think to this rotation this team this season? Between Melton and Brooks, they're sort of the first two guys that the roster the team is reinvested in just because Dylan Brooks is extensions kicking in. They resigned the Anthy Melton in restrictive free agency. I've Melton just his defense is absolutely phenomenal. But Brooks is, you know, from someone who's not watching nearly as much Grizzlies as you. He gives me heart palpitations with his shot selection sometimes at the same time, like who else is supposed to generate, you know, offense from scratch at certain points, And it feels like he's best suited aside from John Morant, to do that on this roster. And so I'm just curious as to how you look at them long term in terms of who means more to this team's direction. Oh why okay, vote vote but Dylan Dylan Dylan. Okay. I'm not off base with that though, right is that like a feeling that But it's just like with Dylan, it's just like to me, this me talking, I think that he's better suited as going to the basket with his shots. I'm okay with threes, but I just don't want him to subject up three after three after three, you know what I'm saying. But I can say that he's working on facility anymore because the two preseason games, the first game he averaged four, he averaged four assists. The second game he averaged five assist. So it's just like he's working on trying to trying to find the open man. He's doing that more. So hopefully he will will he will be able to take the right shot. Because when Dylan is on, he's on, he can you know, gets you thirty and he's he's consistent. But when he's off, you'd be like, Dylan, why why why did you shoot pass the ball? Dylan listening to that. But you know, Dylan is a good player, but I just want him to be able to see his teammates when they're open, and I don't want him to just check up with three and then clank and you know the other team schools, you know, especially when they're having momentum. It's just like he needs to have a better court vision of because it's just like he's just I think all he sees is the basket at times, and I think they're working on him with that where he see you see an open teammate because you know, like you know, with job, if jab is you know, doing certain things. He sees his open team, man, he'll give them the ball. But you know, we didn't see that with Dealings. Sometimes it just seemed like he just wants, you know, think he's like, you know, a dollar tree Kovid. You know what I'm saying. That's a fantastic way to put it. And yeah, he does seem like I call it like the uh it happens with Julius Randall, a lot completely different players, but they just get tunnel vision. Brooks seems to be in that sort of mold like when they're especially when they're going downhill. And so, like I said, I have not watched a ton of preseason by by design this year, but if he's able to kind of up his or improve his decision making, I feel like that ends up being huge for the offense. And I do think it's also fair to point out that like the role that they kind of need him to play right now, it's over taxing, I think relative to what he's best suited for. Like this feels like the Grizzlies are one like creator short to where you need to make life easier on the Meltains or the Tias Jones or the Dylan Brooks is because you don't necessarily want them. You're you're trying to overextend their skill set right now, and so I think you have to be prepared when you do that for someone like Brooks those wild swings. But as you put it, he's kind of like the consument player that yeah, he'll shoot you into games, but he's gonna shoot you out of them too, right, But if he could get better, is that it's just like it's not like, you know, because like some of the fans was like, well, you guys hate Dylan Brooks. Is just like, no, we just this constructive criticism of you know, he's played one game, he's you know, he's a really good player in this game you would like dealing? Why why why did you do that? You know you you kind yeah, you kind of mentioned this before too, that this team is built to play matchups. And I'm sure they're you know, the way that they structure their closing lineups and type games will reflect reflect this. But what do you see as their most common closing lineup or do you identify even if you want to take it this route, you know two or three players that you just know are gonna be in every single closing unit. We know John Morant is one of them, and I would assume Jaren Jackson is too. But it feels like the Grizzlies have a lot of options for how they're going to flesh out those those cloning those excuse me, those closing units when they need to. But I just think, uh, like you said, Jaron and Job, but who knows who the other three players are going to be. I'm just being honest because it's just like you just I have to wait because like with me, I don't like to predict things, you know, per se, because I just don't know what's going on, you know, happen because like one of the rookie is, could you know, be really good and you know they're in a closing lineup, But in Brandon Clark, he could be in a closing lineup and then sometimes Yaan's give me an a closing lineup. So I just I just don't know. Is is there a unit then that you would independent of crunch time whatever, that you just want to see the Grizzlies play, maybe a quirky five man combination, one that Jenkins might not immediately think too to deploy, Like if you were just to put on your coach's hat right now, and you could roll out any five combination of players here for Memphis, what would you what do you want to see at some point this season tested out. We want to see Job Junior and just as Brandon Clark in maybe Dylan or Deanthon. That's a lot. Yeah, with Dylan, that's a lot offensive versatility in that unit. That should be like an offensive firecracker. And I do really good at on the defense as well. So I would like to see if they're ever going to play Jackson at the five, I'd like to kind of see what the partnership looks like with Justice Winslow as sort of the four guy in that situation. We see had a lot of success with that in Miami, and that makes you, I think a little more dynamic on offense without really sacrificing anything on the defensive end. I know people are have noted that, like they don't view Jackson's being on the all defense track that he would sort of build as coming into League one. It's only been a couple of seasons, but two, I think he's you know, he's not like completely overmatched playing the five. And so if you're you have two like solid options at least up front there, and yeah, foulon could become an issue between the two of them in those spots. I would just kind of like to see Rant running point in that situation obviously, and you could really flesh out the wing spots how you would at the two three in any way, I would just like to see that sort of three man combination and how it works with Jackson at the five, Winslow at the foreign Jaws as the one. Yeah, that that that would be pretty cool. And it's just like who knows who could be at the two and three? Yeah, I like it. I mean we've talked at a bunch of ready. They just have so many different options that are all basically worth testing out. Like I'm not like super into Grayson Allen's game, but he shot the ball really well points last year. I'm just thinking about that when before you said something, I would on Grayson in there too, because like when Grayson on with them threes, because like he was in a bubble, you know, he's healthy, he would shoot the three two, So I would probably would want him in the closing lineup, you know, over dealing maybe sometimes maybe, yeah, I know, I mean I would make total sense. And again it's such an If he's hitting threes consistently, that's just a big boon for the offense. And it does a lot through the spacing that John Morant is working with because he creates just under utter anarchy when he's working off the dribble inside the art. What the going Joe in the bubble is like, we said that Grayson got a haircut from a black barber and that's why he was shooting that will, So you know, we need someone of black Barbara's in Memphis the hook Grayson up. Look, all I'm saying is if he comes out in the first game of the regular season and shoots like two of eight or something, then that absolutely needs to happen, right, And so what would you view when you could factor this in however you like, if you're expecting major changes, If you're not, what do you view a sort of a realistic win total and Western Conference finish for this team? I know they're over under most recently has been set at thirty point five, which for people like myself who cannot think in seventy two game terms, that's the equivalent of a thirty five win season, which is, you know, slightly. I think they're They're on a thirty nine win pace last year, so that's that's off that pace a little bit. Would you take over or under on that type of mark if if they're being packed a thirty five win team in a normal season, would you expect fewer or more victories than that from them? It all depends. I think it probably be more more than already five. I'm just gonna say probably about forty maybe, because just like the Whist is something tough, but it's just like I really don't know. The whist is so too because they were when I didn't I want to. You wonder how Golden State is going to be, you know, we're still wonder how the Rockets are going to be because you don't know if James already gonna be there to be there, just but you just don't know. And I just think just like last season, you know, they were predicted to be bought on the barrel and before you know the hiatus, you know, they were the eight seeds and then like you know, they they you know, achieved you know, It's just like people thought they was gonna be at the bottom of the barrel and then they overperformed, you know, basically. So it's just like I don't want to give a number per se, but I think myself, to me honestly, I think they kid finished between seven to two them. That's would me being honest, that's what I think they will be it between seven and twelve. As you know, it's going to be playing as this time, and then maybe they can be one of the teams to overtake you know, the seven or eight spot. Yeah, I've had I have not like I've had trouble thinking about the postseason in those terms. I keep forgetting that now that you're if you're tense, like give it a real chance of getting the playoffs, and that changes I'm sure what teams do in the middle of the season. And you really touched upon like the mental tug of war for myself when I was doing a win Predictions podcast earlier, I picked the under for Memphis because of how brutal the West is, Like I mean, you mentioned some of these teams, like even just the ones that are like Phoenix is just going to be exponentially better because of I'm getting Chris Paul. But the thing that made me not feel the least bit confident in that pick is because we ascribe so much value too. If you have like that North Star building block, and if they can be a top twenty five player at any given point, the value that they really inject into that team, and the Grizzlies have that player, And so then I find myself wondering, if you know, if I'm saying they're gonna win under the equivalent of thirty five games, I'm wondering if I'm just not assigning enough value to what John Morant can do, because I don't know that I expect him to get a lot better, but he's going to just be better. And he just had one of the most efficient, high volume scoring seasons among rookies in league history. And so I am in full agreement with you that I think their range of outcomes in the West, probably like every other team is, is pretty wide, and I certainly wouldn't write them out of the playing conversation. I will say that I think if they do miss let's say tenth by a substantial margin, if it's not due to injuries, my guests would then be that it's okay, Well, then this team decided to steer kind of out of the playoff picture this year, and there were some subsequent trades made, right, But I you know, it's just like the Grizzlies, just like they try to get like players who suit the team, you know how I Q And it's not going to be a problem in the locker room. So I just don't know how the trade thing is going to want to be. And then I forget to you know, Gorgie Gorgie Nang is still on the roster, and who knows what he's going to do. You know, sometimes he can choose the three pretty good, he can rebound good. So I just don't know who the what's gonna happen. But I'm hoping that the bench, you know, would be a better beach like they were a good beach like they were last seat, because like I said, they were top five, top five, Yeah, I am, I was, okay. I was really high on Gorgy Jenu when he was in Minnesota, like right when he signed his extension. I thought he was gonna end up being like really good and he's kind of fade into the backdrop. But for you know, when you're looking at like the center spot and just I don't know if he makes the best decisions on defense. He's just super mobile and can do a lot of different things. Any space is the floor for you on offense a little bit too, So you do see him factoring into the rotation then, yeah, I do like especially you know as far as the beans goes, like I said it, they have so many pieces you know, yeah, right, they have so many pieces that could fit in. We just don't know when they like I said, you know, bang, he could like you know, start hitting like seven threes a game, you know the game, and that could help, you know, like it helps out. So it's it's just like for me, it's just a wait and see, you know what, what's gonna happen with this team? But I know they're going to be fun to watch. I think John Morant by himself automatically makes you no lower than a top seven team to watch. Right's gonna be really fun to watch. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to talk? Maybe something that's undercovered about this team from a national perspective? Any spicy you know Xavier Tillman takes or anything along those lines. No, no, no, no, nothing spicy. I just you know, people just shouldn't come come out just because you know, things look good on paper, but until you actually started playing a game. You know, look look what happened, you know, with the Clippers last season, and look look what happened with the Heat. You know, a lot of people was like, well, Jimmy Butler shouldn't have signed with the Heat, and look what happened with that team. You have people, you have guys is gonna play hard and you know, there's no egos or anything like that, and they know their roles. They could go far. At the Clippers certainly wish that they didn't play the games in the bubble, that they were just awarding championships based on paper. The one thing I did want to ask you, though, that I forgot to mention, was do you see this team being noticeably better on the defensive end this year, now that some of these guys have just a little bit more experienced under their belts, or do you think that their identity is going to end up sort of being defined on the offensive ends mostly this season, because you know last year they were I was shocked, like they finished fifteenth and defense efficiency which is just really good. But when you look at their roster, to me, I feel like this year, they're almost set up to be probably better offensively than they are defensively, and I was just curious as to what your thoughts were on that. I think they could be better on defense. So I was watching the bubble game, you know, I mean not the bubble game, the preseason game. I'm like, you know, they was like, I don't know if Minnesota was like just a bad team or defense you know, was on because he was like, wow, why, I'm like, they was playing really hard. I'm like, oh, this is a preseason game. We don't you know, it don't matter why y'all playing this hard because like I said, I don't know if you know that's how their defense is going to be, Well just Minnesota just a bad team. Minnesota's gonna be a bad team. But I'm I'm very interested to track their defense because they I wouldn't have even pegged them as like a league average defense last year and they were sort of right there. And now you have you know, John Morant is a sophomore, he's not a rookie, and Dancy Melton has been in a regular rotation for another year. So team feels like at once, like that's a a look League average defense is hard when you don't when you're dealing with a sort of a developmental situation. But the fact that they were there last year and then didn't really make any changes, and if Justice Winslow comes back, that in theory only amplifies your defense. That's something with this team that I think I'm going to be drawn to all year. Oh Okay, another thing that I wanted to talk about was Jonni's Valentinas. He's like becoming a good facilitator. You know, they were you know, they wanted him to do that. I think in one of the bubble games or whatever, he did that and then he you know, I saw him getting some assists during the preseason, so I'm hoping that there will be something he continued to do. Yeah, he's and I think with traditional bigs like they just get type cast too easily now are written off as, oh, they're not versatile enough. He does, you know, if he's going to improve his passing, like he already does so many different things like getting you buckets in the post. He's a good role man. He's expanded his jumper. He's like a pretty you know, you're not going to trust him to go out and in space, but he can be a pretty good rim protector. So he's like really solid for this team. And if you're don't you know, if you're trying to not be like, if you're trying to be competitive, I don't know if he I don't know if he can be the center on a championship team, but if you're trying to be a competitive, good, above average basketball team in the NBA, he's he's a legitimate starting center. And I think that continues to even when he was in Toronto was the same thing. It felt like that was kind of lost on people, right, and then it's just like he you know, he you know, he needs a better role role, but you know they talk to him about you know, doing doing you know, get more cerisan, you know, kind of facilitate a little bit, and I think he likes it. Not I think he's gonna do a whole lot better to seat. Yeah, it would be interesting to me is that if they you know, maybe he's still starting, but you give him like a quicker hook and you kind of put him out against bench, heavier lineups and you can just let him if he's gonna be able to facilitate, let him brutalize them on the block, and he can pass, and he can he can score. That might be a role that he's really suited for right now. Yeah, because like the last game, the last Ree Sason game against Minnesota, he had twenty two points, five assists, and four rebounds in twenty four minutes. That's a pretty good line, right because you know he has two assists shy of of Jah. So if he gives you know, assists like that, Yeah, that's that's gonna be another thing he can all put in his way. Oh, that's another part of his game that he has. So I really liked it. This was awesome. Thank you so much for coming on shown. I really appreciate it. If you guys aren't following her on Twitter, I would recommend remy remedying that post taste. She'd be found at Sharon Shy Brown. That's at s h A r o N s h y b r o w N. She is the Grizzlies beat writer for the Memphis Flyer, founding editor of All Heart in Hoop City. She writes for Dime up Rocks, and she is the host of the The Shy Show podcast. She wears many hats and wears them. Well, thank you again so much for coming on, and I'm sure I will be bothering you again in the future. Yeah, I appreciate you, and I need to have you to come on or come on the shy shell too. Look whatever you need terrible basketball tags, I'm your guy, all right. Thank you are appreciating. Nobody builds five G like Verizon builds five G because we're the engineers who built the most reliable network in America. And the more you do with five G, the more building it right matters, the more your network matters, The more Verizon engineers going the extra mile matters. It's us pushing us. It's Verizon versus Verizon. 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