Hello, and welcome to the show on Martin Willashire. Host and I've been
busy the last few weeks. Glad to be back. I did some pre
recording shows at the Ozark Mountain UFO conference. I had a blast. It's
a beautiful conference, wonderful place to be. Went to the Haunted hotel,
the Crescent Hotel with my producer Donna and Mark de Antonio. We had a
really fun time there. Didn't see any ghosts, but anyway, it was
still a great tour. Late in the evening we even went in the morgue
all that weird stuff. But anyway, the conference was great and I got
to meet a lot of people. It was a lot of fun. Also,
I met up with Nick Pope for this interview you're going to see here.
He talks about things in this interview that you probably will not hear in
another interview, and I thought it was a really good one. So just
to let you know where we're going from here at seven thirty pm, if
you're watching on either Facebook or the other Things Live, we're going from here
over to Kevin Day starts at seven point thirty. So I got to get
this thing rolling just quickly. The blog this week from Charles lear Is UFOs
over Scottsdale, Arizona. That's a recent thing in April that happened, so
he writes about that. So right now I'm going to start, Nick Pope,
and I'll see you after this ends, and we'll jump over to the
next one. Also Monday, at eight pm Eastern, we have Brandon Fugel.
It's going to be talking about the premiere of season five of the Secret
of Skinwalker Ranch and that's on Monday at eight pm. And here we go.
All right, I'm here with Nick Pope. Thank you, Nick for
being willing to sit down and talk. Sure, and we really had I
had fun with you up in Shag Harbor this last October. That was a
real pleasure to meet you up there and hang out and and I enjoyed both
talks. We're here at the Ozark Mountain UFO conference, and I really loved
what you had to say up there, and then yesterday that was a very
good, very good talk. I have to say. You must be a
man that thinks a lot and really looks into a lot of things in between
your very busy schedule. That's right. Yes, I'm always reading, I'm
always taking in a fast amount of information, and yes, absolutely thinking about
things, thinking of questions that people maybe haven't thought to ask, thinking of
different angles to approach this topic from, because it's so multifaceted. And you
know, just as you think you've counted everything, you're taken off in a
new direction, right, And I think that's a good point, the questions.
You know, we don't even know what questions to ask. And I
agree with a lot of the things you said. Now you went down kind
of the dark side to the possibility of the dark side. And also when
it comes to disclosure, you think of things, why if the government knows?
And I personally don't think they know everything, but I think they know
most likely more than we do. I'm talking about the US government. But
there may be a dark side, and that's way maybe the reason we're not
knowing as much as we'd like to. And do you want to hit on
some of those ideas, I mean they're fascinating. Sure. Yes. The
title of my presentation, as you know, was a secret too terrible to
be told. And I wonder you know, given that there can really be
nothing classified about an extraterrestrial presence, if that's what we're dealing with in and
of itself, you know, in terms of the literal Security Manual definitions of
what classified information is in terms of causing harm to the national security of the
United States. Well, if you say we're being visited by call it,
let's use the phrase non human intelligence, the David Grush term, that can't
be classified. It must be that there's something else about it that takes us
into new territory. There's part of the story, part of the backstory that
does take us into something that's classified because it would cause damage. Because all
the cliches about you know, undermining religion and panic in the streets, you
know, they have some validity to them, but that's not a justification for
classification really, not certainly at the levels that we've seen classified briefings in Congress,
for example. So it was just a speculative what if presentation that really
said, look, what might that something else be that would take us into
dark side territory? Right, and some of the different things. I know,
you go through the demonic possibility that I mean, people like Luel Zondo
said someone above his pay grade, I remember when he said that mentioned him
that he thought there could be a demonic element to this, just one of
them. And also I've heard him also say that what if something you know,
what if we aren't the top thing here, the top intelligence, what
if there's been something here all along? You know. All that stuff fascinates
me because we only you know, I mean, just think of our spectrum
alone. But I think we only know just very little about what's going around
on around us at all times. Absolutely, And look, you know,
I know a lot of people in the UFO community take a very sort of
spiritual New Age approach to this. The space people are coming here, They're
going to save us from nuclear destruction or all of that. I'd love it
to be true, but I suspect it isn't. I mean, you know,
for all the people that say there's a UFO nuclear connection and who then
take the next step and say, well, if we ever press the button,
they'll step in, Well, they didn't step in at Hiroshima and na
Yasaki, right, So this dark side idea appeals to me. I mean,
I don't personally believe in demons. But what's interesting is that people in
both the US and the UK government who are well placed, highly placed,
senior people with power and authority, do believe in demons, and particularly in
the US, in the sort of fundamentalist Christian arena, where there are people
who told Aleszondo when lou was trying to get more resources and more stakeholder engagement
on this, said go read your Bible, son, and I mentioned the
specific passage in the Book of Ephesians that a lot of this faction who think
it's demonic hang this on. And it's the quote that described Satan as being
the prints of the power of the air. And therefore, if there's this
faction that thinks it's demonic or part of it is demonic, they also believe
that you shouldn't really study it or engage with it, because that feeds it
and gives it energy. Right I remember that part? Yeah, yeah,
And so what are some of the if you don't mind touching on some of
the other possibilities of you know, when you were thinking all these lines of
what they could be, well, inevitably I was attracted to the idea of
simulation theory, the idea that essentially we are living in a construct, that
the observable universe is really just a computer program or or something like that,
a simulation. I mean, rather like we see in the Matrix movies,
for example. And if that's the case, the question then arises, well,
what are we are We Are we like a reality show? Are we
an arcade game? Are we a science experiment? And in all of those
scenarios, those are things that have a sort of end point. Somebody at
the end of the day says, Okay, this has gone off track,
let's pull the plug or game over. Well are we going to hit that?
And is that what the phenomenon is, or you know, does the
phenomenon kind of support that theory? In which case that would be a secret
about this that perhaps would be too terrible to be told. How could you
tell people that we're in a simulation that or alternatively another possibility, what if
we are being farmed harvested. You listen to the abduction reports. If those
are true, we are a resource. And I didn't say this, I
don't think I said this in my presentation yesterday, But it's like, imagine
ass us as the product being farmed and harvested for something, whether it's DNA
samples for a hybridization program, whatever it is. Some people say our souls,
whatever you believe, but it's like, if that's true. When a
rancher moves the cattle around, he doesn't consult the cows. So you know,
what if we are the cows. So those are the sorts of ideas
that I unpacked. And then the time travel I think it's interesting. I
spoke with you after just briefly about I had a scientist on my show a
while back and he said, you know, there has been enough time that
the Earth had oxygen, etc. To move ahead. There could have been
civilizations that there's no sign of now. I don't know how true that is.
I'm not a scientist myself, but you mentioned what if there're time travels
from the past, and you don't often hear that time travels from the future,
like doctor Michael Masters talks about and or time travelers from the past.
Either way, is you know, really something to think about and all the
paradoxes that could happen, and it would explain some of the things you know
absolutely and time travelers from When I talk about this, usually I speculate time
travelers from the future. I threw in time travelers from the past just because
my presentation yesterday was a speculative cover all the bases one, and I thought,
why not why not throw it in and one sees all these arguments.
Yes, the Earth is about four point three million years old a billion pardon
me, Yes, the ape human split was somewhere between five and seven million
years ago. Anatomically modern humans walk the Earth for maybe only two hundred thousand
years. So with a four point three billion year old Earth, and with
even the most mighty buildings collapsing into dust and things after a few thousands of
years, probably yes, who's to say it's not possible that previous civilizations have
emerged and fallen and been replaced. I mean, on a lesser scale.
It seems that almost every month where we're finding out, you know, lost
cities, as we use new scientific techniques, we're pushing back the human timeline.
Even so, maybe there are some even bigger discoveries to make. But
let's suppose it's time travelers from the future. Well, that would explain why
many people see apparently essentially humanoid creatures the grays, because in this scenario,
that's what we evolve into. Yes, right, right, And I'm not
sure about you know, I was just listening to Mark d'antonio's presentation. He
was talking about the asymmetrical situation like beings, and certain beings are like that.
But I always think of on other planets. There's so many variables.
I mean a lot of this dorus have a binary I mean solar systems are
binary, and you know, how would that affect a gravity, and how
would that affect evolve evolving species in different ways? And there's so many variables
on how species can evolve. And yet you're right, you know a lot
of what people claim they see is a lot like us. So yes,
that might be because it is time travel from the future. But as again
I said in my presentation, none of these things are mutually exclusive. So
it's perfectly possible to have a scenario where you would have time travelers from the
future, but you would also have extraterrestrials. And I suspect that while in
this vast infinite universe, there might be trillions of civilizations, so a lot
of variety. I'm also a fan of a sort of convergent evolution on a
universal scale, in that if a design works, it works. So just
as we have convergent evolution here on Earth, we may well find that forms
that work just arise through natural processes. And again, one of the constants
I suspect in the universe will be random mutation and natural selection and self evidently
the change that best suits the environment and gives that life form and advantage will
be selected for. So actually, you know, we may well find that
this is pretty pretty useful. You know, eyes to see, a mouth
and a vocal voice box and vocal cords to communicate, a written language,
opposable thumbs to hold things and build things and write things, legs to move
around. Yeah, so we might find in the universe some very very different
life but we might find some that's stunningly similar. Yeah. Yeah, right,
And I'm just going to change gears a little bit here. And how
do you think AI is going to affect the UFO world, Because I'm a
little concerned about that right now, because I really feel like anyone that sends
me a picture now sends you a picture, sends videos or whatever, we
can't really rely on those anymore. With I don't know if you've seen some
of these things, but they're incredible what they can recreate. I mean,
I'm just wondering how you feel about as we move forward, how we are
going to be able to get anyone to believe anything well, I think we
had the same debate when photoshop first came in, of course, and then
you know, what we found was that various tools were developed to spot fakes
and to spot images that had been used previously for example. So that so
there are sites like reverse search or whatever it's called. So I regard this
as rather like an arms race, where you have a missile and then you
have an anti missile, and then you have an anti anti missile. So
yes, I agree with you that AI will be a problem in terms of
things like fake videos and photos. But then I suspect other AI tools will
be developed to spot things that have been done with AI that might help.
And I think, as with all things in life, AI in relation to
the UFO community will bring both threats like the one we've discussed, but opportunities.
And one of the big opportunities is once we actually have the vast archive
of paper databases, whether they move on databases, whether the government bases like
the UK Midustry Defense, whatever it is. Once we have all that digitized,
AI will play a huge role in trend analysis, in going through big
data, big information and finding the patterns that human analysts may not have spotted.
Yeah, and there's a lot of people talk about the medical field that
it could really be very progressive in moving forward into you know, possibly cancer
research, things like that. You know, I mean, there's it's a
it's an incredible tool. I think, yes, I think it may well
play I think it already is, but a much more profound role in diagnosis.
So, for example, we have a lot at the moment of sort
of telemedicine or online thing where you put in your your symptoms and somebody will
go off a checklist. Well, I suspect AI will get better and better
at that, and it may be able to do other things like for example,
I read just the other day about a woman who was capable of smelling
people and detecting Parkinson's disease, and it turned out there was there was some
really obscure reason why this worked, and her hit rate was way higher than
chance alone would have allowed. And so I wonder if there aren't ways of
looking at apparently healthy people. Now I'm not I don't like over diagnosis,
and there's always a danger of people getting so many tests and becoming obsessed with
it. But what if AI could be used to look at people's physical appearance
to maybe detect you know, smells or you know, whether it's chemical composition
of breath, something in the skin, whatever it might be. So that
would be some thing. But also of course running through immense combinations or potential
combinations of drugs chemicals to make new drugs for treatments, So that would be
a possibility. I mean, I think AI is already and will increasingly change
the world. What I touched on yesterday, of course, was the idea
that you know, is any of this already sentient or close to becoming sentient?
And if life has evolved elsewhere in the universe, which I'm convinced it
has, is some of that life now has it evolved from biological to post
biological, either through through sort of transhumanism or trans alienism, if I can
call it that, or simply that biological extraterrestrials created AI programs, which which
then effectively evolved and either overthrew or just overtook their biological creators, and might
first contact be with AI. And if so, maybe they won't land on
the White House lawn, but maybe they'll reach out a sort of digital tantril
into some of our computers and AI systems, in which case that might be
detectable. How about that great thinking. So getting back to the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
which I think is definitely a very big possibility of what we are seeing
here in some form or another. I'm sure you hear the argument, which
I hear have heard constantly since has started the show. They can't get here
from there. You know, it's too vast, you know, a distance
for even the nearest star. And I have always thought, well, maybe
they figured out something we have not yet, or something in physics we just
haven't discovered, or something like that. And I just wanted to hear what
you're take in general when you oppose that question. Sure, well, let's
start with your point. Absolutely, it may be that there are workarounds to
the apparent impenetrable barrier of light speed. And those workarounds, of course,
might be wormholes, they might be warp drives. People talk a lot about
the Alqubari warp drive, for example. So there may be something like that.
But let's suppose for a moment that there isn't doesn't matter, because in
a universe nearly fourteen billion years old, there might be civilizations out there with
a billion year head start on us. And if those civilizations, let's just
say, in our galaxy for the time being, and even in the nearby
part of our galaxy, had sent probes, Let's suppose those probes were no
faster than our pioneer or voyager probes, you know, which would take broadly
speaking, had we aimed those at Proximu CENTII, the nearest star aside from
our son, they would take about seventy or seventy to seventy five thousand years
to get there, right, And so that's you know, but that's not
a long time compared to the sort of time scales that we just discussed in
terms of civilization a billion years ahead of us. So, if that's the
scenario, without needing to invoke any kind of new physics like wormholes or warp
drive, just taking our own current level, which we know is possible because
we've done it, then it is absolutely feasible that the galaxy could be full
of probes from other civilizations just traveling between the stars at sub light speed.
And I suspect that actually, without again, without needing to invoke warp drive
and wormhole, I suspect that we'll be able to do something a lot faster
than pioneer and voyager probes. We might be able to get up to say
point ten that's point one point two of light speed, in which case my
argument is even more iron clad that there is plenty of time for other civilizations
to have evolved and sent probes here without offending against any of the laws of
physics, although, of course, as I always say, it's not the
laws of physics. It's the laws of physics as currently understood, and our
understanding of the laws of physics is constantly changing and evolving. Right. I
had an astra physicists on the show that claims that there's a possibility of about
a billion earthlike planets in just our galaxy, and that's something to really ponder,
you know, considering how many billions and billions of galaxies there are,
and so if they have evolved, it just makes me wonder why the pale
blue dot, Why would they come to see us? If there's that many
possibilities of life and then possibly intelligent life out there. I just have always
pondered, why would we be visited or are they're visiting every civilization they can
find. I suspect they would want to visit every civilization, because to truly
ancient civilizations in the universe, newly emerging civilizations like ours might be the last
interesting thing in the cosmos. And who wouldn't want to do some anthropology and
see how any new civilization is going to develop? And sure, this is
another point that I think I made in my presentation, but if not,
I'll make it here anyway. We are unlikely. Of course, it's one
of the few good assumptions because of the engineering challenges of interstellar travel. And
it's one of the few good assumptions that visiting extraterrestrials will have technology orders of
magnitude above and beyond anything we have. That being the case, we are
not going to have anything to teach them about science, technology, anything like
that. But and this speaks to you, why would they come here?
All the abstract things art, literature, poetry, architecture, all those things
I think will be unique to civilizeations. Every civilization probably goes through a fairly
structured phase of discovery and development, not least because some things can really only
be invented after you've invented something else. So you can't invent the motor car
without having first invented the wheel as an example. So I suspect that all
civilizations go through a phase that they would develop a spoken language and then a
written language to communicate information and make plans and things like that, that they
would discover how to harness and make fire, the wheel, agriculture, urban
society's flight, the internal combustion engine. All. I suspect those things are
fairly standard across the universe, because, in a sense, they'd have to
be for any You can't just jump. You can't just jump. Any civilization
coming here must have a probably a propulsion system that we haven't quite figured out
yet. But to get into space in the first place, you probably have
to go through rockets, and before rockets, flight before flight. So there's
a sequence. But there's probably only ever been one van Go in the universe.
One Mozart, one Bach, one Da Vinci, one David Bowie,
one Beatles, and then you know, so I'm sure a lot of maybe
most civilizations will have music. And I'm going to just ask you what you
thought about that, because I've thought of because I do a lot of thinking
about this too. You know, what was the equivalent of a first kiss,
a first car? Music? What would music be like you know,
and it's very interesting to ponder all that. I think, so yes,
and I think these things. You know, all life obviously wants to preserve
its own existence. Finder may reproduce food, shelter, all those things.
But I think what sets apart of civilization from just a successful life form is
organization, but also curiosity, which I think is inextricably linked to intelligence and
creativity. So I suspect that most civilizations in the universe will will have music,
and obviously they'll have architecture. I mean, that's just how you build
things. But the styles will be interesting to see for sure. But I
think those random, those more abstract things like art, literature, music,
poetry, those will be the things that civilizations do in unique ways. And
even if a lot of things are standard across the cosmos, we'll have some
new and different things, even to truly ancient civilizations who've seen it all before,
because they won't have seen this before. Yeah, this is excellent.
It's been really very enjoyable, and thank you for your time and being here
and doing what you do well. Thank you, And I've enjoyed the conversation
because it's taken us to some more interesting places than frankly a lot of the
fairly standard interviews go. Who knew that we'd finished up talking about, you
know, where the aliens are going to like the Beatles and what an extraterrestrial
version of vang Go might be like. But that's effectively where we've landed.
Yeah, and I love it. Okay, thank you, thank you.
Yah. All right, that's it, so please jump over to Kevin Day
the next if you're watching live that is, and that should be right up
on the YouTube channel or Facebook, et cetera. Thanks so much, everyone
thought it was a great conversation and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.