WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:13.720 Hi, everybody, Welcome back to Coming Out Pod. Hello, Happy Pride 2 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.679 Month. It's been a couple months off, and as promised, I am 3 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:22.000 doing new episodes for Pride. I would not let a Pride go by without 4 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:27.600 having my voice in your ear holes. So yeah, I hope everyone has 5 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:32.359 been doing well. I'm very excited about this episode. I've been looking for 6 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:38.719 like a guest to kind of have like a like a like a bang uplifting 7 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:42.439 like opening to Pride, and I'm really excited about who I'm going to be 8 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:46.799 speaking to today. But first off, so I haven't done queer Root shout 9 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.399 outs in several months. I did post on the Instagram. I was like, 10 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:54.240 hey, does anyone have a suggestion for a queer Root shout out for 11 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:59.119 this first episode back after the hiatus. Within a couple hours of posting that, 12 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:03.239 two different people have suggested this one, So shout out to you if 13 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:08.079 you are queer root. Is the movie Bend It? Like Beckham, this 14 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:12.599 is one that I am. I am deeply embarrassed to say I have not 15 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:17.599 seen this movie, which is shameful. If you also have not seen it, 16 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:21.879 let's all make a vow to correct this during Pride Month. Let's all 17 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:23.480 watch Bend It like Beckham. If we haven't seen it, this is the 18 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:29.159 movie that put Kiera Knightley on the map. Yeah it is. I'm sure 19 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:30.719 you've heard of it if you haven't seen it. But yet, two people 20 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.879 immediately suggested this as a queer root shout out. So if that affected your 21 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:41.439 young soccer playing heart, shout out to you. So, without further ado, 22 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:47.159 I am here today with Heather May. Hello, Heather. Hi. 23 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:53.439 Heather is coming to us from Nashville and she is a singer and activist. 24 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:59.959 When we're recording this, it is the day after her song and video Kissing 25 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.959 Girls just released, and we're going to talk a lot about that. And 26 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:07.359 when I watched the video, I was like, Oh, this is absolutely 27 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:09.599 someone I want to kick off pride with. It's just like it's so it's 28 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:14.240 beautiful, it's like it's moving, it's fun. It's just yeah, I'm 29 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.599 really excited to speak to you about this song in this video. But yeah, 30 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:23.000 welcome, Hello, Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Thank 31 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:29.039 you so much for asking me. Oh I'm so thrilled when you reached out 32 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:34.479 because yeah, I'm just I'm so excited about what you're doing. And your 33 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.599 story. And before I ask how you identify, is there anything you want 34 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:43.479 to just say, you know, casual like to the listeners before we get 35 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.879 into how you identify and all that. Hello, everybody, happy pride. 36 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.759 I'm so excited to be spending a little bit of time with you, just 37 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.080 telling you a little bit about my story because I think that all stories, 38 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.280 all of our coming out stories, are so individual. But yeah, I'm 39 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:07.039 excited to be spending some time with you. Thank you. Likewise, so 40 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:12.719 yeah, let's jump into it. How do you identify? Yeah, my 41 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:21.240 pronouns or she her, I identify as queer. My answer, I think 42 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.759 a year ago would have been a queer femme, although recently I've been playing 43 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:32.840 around with my expression, which has been really fun, and so uh yeah, 44 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.879 I think I'm just going to stick with just queer. Ask me a 45 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:44.159 year from now and oh please. Yeah. That's why I we do these 46 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:47.879 I do these things called Reducs episodes where I will have guests back after a 47 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:53.479 number of years to talk about like, oh yeah, like fantastic, so 48 00:03:53.560 --> 00:04:01.199 yeah, transition yeah, so oh it's amazing. Yeah, which is kind 49 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:06.680 of a part of my story actually is not really telling myself you have to 50 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:15.039 decide right now, and so I'm in that flux. I'm in that position 51 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:16.959 right now. It's very interesting. I'm doing a podcast about that. But 52 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:27.480 yeah, but I identify as queer. I'm also poly and I am a 53 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:33.519 singer activist, and just like the word queer, I'm also genre bending as 54 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:42.480 well as identity bending. Yeah, I write and I produce and I record, 55 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:49.800 and I predominantly write and record and produce in the pop world. But 56 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:56.279 over the last couple of years, I've been really enjoying writing in Americana and 57 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.439 alternative, which has been really fun. And so actually I'm releasing singles off 58 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:08.199 of what is actually two different records that are going to come out next year. 59 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:13.040 Oh, very cool. That's very cool. All right, Well, 60 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:18.360 let's like, let's jump into it, because yeah, I know that being 61 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:24.680 from the South is a very relevant part of your story. So yeah, 62 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.160 where does where does everything start? For you? Well? I live in 63 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:30.879 Tennessee. Now, I live in Nashville, which is a little blue dot 64 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:38.480 in the state of Tennessee. But I my my story, my story begins 65 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:45.800 in Virginia outside of d C. I did not grow up with a lot 66 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:51.839 of stuff my family, you know, we were working folk. And you 67 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.399 know, people think of DC and they think of like, you know, 68 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:02.560 politicians and technology, and you know, an industry that is always making and 69 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:09.600 generating money. It's the only part of the country, only district in the 70 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.720 country that when they're you know, world goes into our country goes into a 71 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:18.639 recession, DC is still thriving. The restaurants are still you know, restauranting 72 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:24.120 and you know, venues are still open. It's because it's not really impacted 73 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:29.800 by that. And that's what I grew up nearby. But I didn't really 74 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.000 have a lot growing up. I had a really lovely family, but I 75 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:40.439 grew up broke as book and so, which actually plays a part in my 76 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:46.240 story because what your listeners can't see is that I'm actually a fat woman, 77 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.639 and I have always been fat. When I was younger, I was that 78 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:56.600 fat kid running around on the basketball court. My body has just always been 79 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:02.079 bigger, and so, you know, growing up, I didn't actually know 80 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:09.920 that I was fat. I just was a kid, right. I grew 81 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.560 up with the same kids, I went to the same school. I lived 82 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.600 across the street from my elementary school. Everybody knew me as one of the 83 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.360 kids that lived in that crazy house across the street from the elementary school. 84 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:24.279 How big was your family where you like you were like I was the baby 85 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:28.720 of four. Okay, yeah, baby of four, A bunch of all 86 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:35.600 sluid children just run around that house and yeah, we you know, I 87 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:44.560 didn't know that my body was different until I moved across town. And when 88 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:49.040 I moved across town, my and I started going to a new elementary school. 89 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.839 I was in fourth grade. And when I went to my first day 90 00:07:53.839 --> 00:08:00.399 of school, my nickname from my bullies began. My first name is Heather, 91 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:07.279 and they started calling me Heffer, and that nickname stuck until you know, 92 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:13.319 I graduated high school, and for the first time in my life, 93 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:20.480 I felt othered. And that was the beginning of me experiencing what I know 94 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:26.319 now to be a low swing of depression because I had bipolar disorder, which 95 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:35.279 I didn't actually get diagnosed until I was in my mid twenties. And I 96 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:41.960 would come home, like every single day from this new school, and I 97 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:48.200 would walk into you know, my house, and you know, I was 98 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:54.720 a latchkey kid, so nobody was there except for my brother, and I 99 00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:03.120 would watch music videos from TRL if you remember TRL or like pop up video 100 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:07.440 on VH one. Yes, oh my god, that was like my life. 101 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.519 I was obsessed with music videos, obsessed with them, which is why 102 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:18.399 I actually fucking love making music videos. Like I the music video for Kissing 103 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.320 Girls that you saw, that's like, it's actually in my that was recorded 104 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:26.679 in my house. My partner and I actually host a queer brunch club and 105 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:33.360 I literally just shot the music video just surrounded. I was like, you 106 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.320 know what I want to do for this, like super queer bisexual pride, 107 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.759 like mega pop song. I want all my friends to come. I just 108 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:48.639 have a videographer just film this thing. Yeah, so, but we I 109 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:50.320 can't remember what got me on that. Oh music videos, right, music 110 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:56.240 videos. So I would run home from the bus and I would watch music 111 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:01.000 videos and it was I swear, I I swear that that was the only 112 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:09.600 reason I did not kill myself as like a young eleven year old. Okay, 113 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:15.919 is because the joy I felt and the excitement I felt from like watching 114 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:26.200 these music videos. And I remember my mom. My mom was raised atheist, 115 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:35.960 my dad was raised conservative, Republican Christian household. Yeaw okay. And 116 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:41.879 what's interesting about this is that my despite their difference, in beliefs. They 117 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:50.639 they loved one another and they saw each other and you know, they got 118 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:56.120 married in the seventies. Baby like they were like, you know, live 119 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:01.360 in their life and like found sweet like hippie love and then like like it 120 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.440 was like he was a conservative Christian, but at the same time he's like 121 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:11.960 found this like rowdy redhead like running around college campus, and he was like, 122 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.720 yeah, I'm gonna forego that stuff. I'm gonna go after that girl. 123 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.919 Oh. So like they yeah, they didn't like they didn't really like 124 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:26.960 argue they when I was growing up about Christianity, but I remember around the 125 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:33.600 time that we moved, my mom was grieving the loss of her mother, 126 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.600 and I remember her saying to my family that she was going to try going 127 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:46.080 to church, which was kind of a shock because she wasn't really like a 128 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:52.279 going to church kind of gal like at all, and but she just felt 129 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.279 like she needed hope, which is really interesting, right, because I also 130 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:03.519 was feeling that as well in an entirely different way and my mom. Later 131 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:09.960 on in life, I learned my mom actually had bipolar disorder, and so 132 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:16.399 she started going to church for the grieving of the loss of her mother and 133 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.200 naturally. It's like free childcare, you know what I mean, Like like 134 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.399 you go on Sunday, she can go like have a moment for herself and 135 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.919 like her kids, you know, can go to like Sunday school, right, 136 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:37.200 and she gets like a moment to herself given the back, she has 137 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:43.600 four kids. And I found this thing that I I also think kind of 138 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.759 saved my life. Okay, wow, all right, which how old were 139 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:54.720 you around this time? I was eleven? I was like ten, Well 140 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.320 how old are you in? Like fourth grade? How old? I can't 141 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.480 remember? See second grade? You're like eight? And then yeah, like 142 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.559 ten, eleven, ten something like that, like maybe ten or nine or 143 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:13.639 ten or something. And I remember going to Sunday school and going to like 144 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:22.039 children's choir because I started singing, and suddenly, like the bullying stopped. 145 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:30.240 Really, yes, what a pushpin on the bullying stops? Because what I 146 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.879 found out later is that the bullying didn't stop, it just changed. Okay, 147 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.440 right, but the bullying stopped when I would cross that threshold and go 148 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.440 into the church. Man, the love that was being extended to me, 149 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:48.240 because that's what these that's what these churches do, right, Oh yeah, 150 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:54.000 right, Like they're like we love you, and God loves you, and 151 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.600 you're perfect just the way you are, right I do what a pushpin in 152 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.480 that too? Yeah, exactly. And God loves you just the way that 153 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.600 you are because God made you. And so obviously we would never bully you. 154 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:11.519 In fact, if anybody bullies you, you she'ld let us know because 155 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.240 we will hold them accountable. I was like, this is paradise, obviously, 156 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:24.200 so excited. I got so into church, like I became like Jesus's 157 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:30.720 best friend, like biggest advocate, like we were we were bros. And 158 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.039 the really interesting part about this entire thing is that my first kiss was with 159 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:48.159 a girl. My first like pseudo kind of like relationship was with a girl. 160 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:54.720 I had crushes on girls my whole life, and I didn't acknowledge any 161 00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:03.559 of them to myself and my entire adolescence. I either had like an ongoing 162 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:09.799 flirtation crush or relationship that was just like kept right here, like if this 163 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:16.200 line right here is you know, bestie and just friends like I was just 164 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:22.960 always just like over top of that very really like sleeping in each other, 165 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:28.679 sleeping in each other's beds, like going to dances together, dancing together, 166 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.960 writing notes to one another, texting each other or I guess at the time, 167 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:39.039 I was like instant messenger. And were these girls also in the church? 168 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.879 Okay some of them, some of them okay, okay, without outing 169 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.879 any of them, just because many of them there's just like a part of 170 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:54.559 it, a part of the story, and that I'm actively releasing music about 171 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:03.240 is that some of them are like still still Christian. Oh, I'm sure 172 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:08.159 still in some of some of the communities I was in, if you know 173 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.759 what I'm saying. Absolutely, yep. No, That's why I was wondering 174 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:15.720 if it was people who you were, you know, spending time with in 175 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:21.000 choir and Sunday school and stuff like that. So it sounds like there for 176 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:26.600 sure. And then then like as just to be like so gay, like 177 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:33.960 I played softball yep, like sure, you know, like as as we 178 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.840 do, and like I was catcher right, like, oh that's right, 179 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.679 that might be the gayest position on the gayest spot. Yeah, I'm gonna 180 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:47.240 be honest with you. That's that's accurate. Yeah, that's realrect And so 181 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:52.759 like those were that's where like I I spent like my weekends like every weekend 182 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:59.840 Wednesday, Thursday night Bible study. Like I spent my summers doing like trips 183 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:06.559 and like like camps and then teaching at the camps and like huge corp retreats. 184 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.160 I mean, I was fully in. And the reason why, Like 185 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.000 I used to tell my coming out story and it would start when I was 186 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:21.559 twenty five, Oh sure, yeah yeah, and during that's such an iceberg. 187 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:25.039 That's that diagram of the iceberg though, where it's like you gotta go 188 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:30.240 under the water to the bottom of the iceberg exactly. But I never did 189 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:38.400 that. I never did that. And it wasn't until I was isolated during 190 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:48.880 the pandemic with my partners and writing music about my truth that I started to 191 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:56.640 like really, yeah, look back. And it was like because of you 192 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:02.000 know, we're we're all home, we're not doing anything, We're bored, 193 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:06.240 so what are you doing? You're like talking to each other and like really 194 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:11.599 talking. And one of the things that we did is we would spend our 195 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:19.160 like time, you know, looking back telling stories and my journey and looking 196 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:25.119 back and telling my story is my partners being like telling you know, they 197 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.279 would be like, oh yeah, it's crazy in my twenties like kissing all 198 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.200 these girls, and I would be like, yeah, No, I didn't 199 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.160 really have that. No, I didn't have that, you know, I 200 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.680 mean I kissed, you know. You know, these are all pseudonyms. 201 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.559 These are all our students. What are the student pseudonyms? Pseudonyms, pseudonyms. 202 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.400 These are all students, Is that right, pseudonyms, pseudonyms. Yeah, 203 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.960 pseudonyms. Although no, I'm questioning it. But your listeners are like, 204 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.559 it's not that it's blank. They're yelling. They're yelling at the radio 205 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.000 right now. Yeah, but like they I would these are all fake names. 206 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:00.839 But you know, I would be as I would be like, they're 207 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.920 like, you know, in my twenties, like, oh yeah, it's 208 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.200 so crazy, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I don't really 209 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.599 have much like a queer. I didn't have like crazy queer twenties, you 210 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.400 know, I did, you know, but I guess I did kiss like 211 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.319 you know Jackie, and you know there's Tabitha, you know, Lisa oh 212 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:25.519 Man. Then there was Becca, you know, and I would I would 213 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.480 like look at their faces and they're like I didn't think that that like counted 214 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:41.279 quote unquot Yeah. Literally, I literally erased the significance of my own queer 215 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.920 story. And it wasn't until I spoke those things out loud, and my 216 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.400 partners are like looking at me, like wide eyed, and they're like, 217 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:56.240 dude, that is your queer story. Yeah yeah that I was like, 218 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:02.799 wait, what why? Why don't I acknowledge that? And so that was 219 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:04.960 the beginning of me looking back like the past couple of years, which is 220 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:10.480 really what these like songs like that's what kissing Girls is about. It's been 221 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.279 looking back. So so you can, oh, can I ask I want 222 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.240 to interpretal quick, because I'm really curious. Did you have you and the 223 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:26.799 girls who were part of these like quasi relationships slash like kissing et cetera. 224 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:32.480 Did you have an instinct to like hide that even though you didn't think it 225 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.359 was like wrong or was there still like where did that live in terms of 226 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:42.960 your like yeah awareness? Yeah. So I also grew up in the purity 227 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.559 movement, so and I was like not just like in it, I was 228 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:56.279 like about it, like I was like in like the recruitment and the Oh 229 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:02.160 Wow worship band at the cor conferences. Did you wear a ring that's a 230 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:07.039 thing right, the perod Oh? I sure did. Okay, You're like, 231 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.960 yeah, it's called I was out. Yeah, it's called The True 232 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:18.240 Love Waits Ring and I wore mine from I don't know, probably when I 233 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:26.400 was like thirteen to twenty one. Wow, oh yeah we have when I 234 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:32.279 say I went hard for Jesus, like I mean, yeah, you were 235 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.279 doing outreach for him. Yeah, no, I mean it was it. 236 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.279 And it's like I now look back on that, like I'm actively doing like 237 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:45.359 shame releasing about that because the lives that like I impacted, Like I can't 238 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:49.039 even reach out to any of those people because I don't remember them. Like 239 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.680 it was just like handing out flyers at the mall and being like, hey, 240 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.960 like there's this really cool thing. It's like a women's gathering, Like 241 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.960 it's this weekend. There's pizza, and like that was it like to get 242 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.680 teenagers to come do something? And like is you just got to offer late 243 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:12.880 it's pizza, you know yep. And like I was to answer your question 244 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:18.319 about like did you have an inkling to hide it? I had an inkling 245 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:26.880 to hide everything everything, because anything at all, any kind of like long 246 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:33.039 stare, any kind of like hand graze, any kind of crush, any 247 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:40.079 kind of anything was forbidden. Oh so gender was even a step beyond that. 248 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.960 It was like having any feelings about anyone. Yeah, yeah, it 249 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:48.720 was. It was like it was something And you know what's so fucked up 250 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.880 about this, Like I'm even sitting here, I'm like, so to be 251 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.759 totally honest, I don't even have the answer to some of the questions that 252 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.240 you might sure because I'm like actively doing That's one of the reasons why I 253 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.240 wrote this song and I wrote this record is because like I know, I'm 254 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:11.119 not alone in that. Like I read this one book it's called Pure by 255 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.680 Linda ka Klein, and I read it in like twenty twenty two, yeah, 256 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:22.279 twenty twenty two, and it blew my mind because I had the thing 257 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.599 is, you don't even know the impact of it because they don't want you. 258 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.400 They don't tell you that it's impactful at the time, which I know 259 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:37.720 might not make any sense, but the indoctrination is so it's so like clever 260 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:44.440 and it's done with love, and yeah, well that's how they get so 261 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.519 many people, especially like you're saying, folks who are bullied, who are 262 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.519 other who are raving, Like it's they come in like the way that they 263 00:23:52.599 --> 00:24:00.319 tell girls when they walk into a church, like like of course I'm saving 264 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:06.559 myself to marriage. Because when they tell me that, like then when they 265 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:12.240 when they look at when they look at you, and they're like they read, 266 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:18.799 they read stories from the Bible about women like brushing their hair and preparing 267 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:26.720 their bodies and bathing and and and and taking care of their you know, 268 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:33.039 the pottery of their body and like preparing themselves for the marriage of blah blah 269 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.400 blah, or like she took a bath and cleansed her impurities so that she 270 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.720 could get on her knees and pray. You know those things. When they 271 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.279 say stuff like that, they weren't telling me you need to get on the 272 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.359 ground, you need to wash your body, and you need to pray. 273 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.799 They're not saying that, especially because I grew up in the Methodist Church and 274 00:24:55.079 --> 00:25:00.640 I was involved in non denominational like outreach, like separate things like the Evangelical 275 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.359 movement, like conferences and get togethers and mission trips and da da da da. 276 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:11.079 But like the Methodist Church is like roll. They're kind of like everything 277 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.319 is fine. Every It's like the pearls are in the right place. Da 278 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:21.440 da. Like it's very like quiet, yeah, and you don't know, 279 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:26.920 but like that whole time I learned how to be a very good girl. 280 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:32.839 So when the purity movement stuff came up, I learned how to be a 281 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.200 very good wife at the age of like eleven. Oh god, yeah. 282 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:42.759 And they always said man for a man for a man, So when I 283 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.519 kissed girls, okay, I was like, well, this is just practice. 284 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:55.519 Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, you know, yeah, so 285 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.400 you don't necessarily think there's something wrong with it because it's so invalidated that you 286 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.640 don't even think it's anything. Like literally, but here's the thing about this 287 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:10.000 stuff, like I can't even I couldn't even come up like I'm hearing your 288 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:12.559 that sentence you just said, like it's so invalidated, like you don't even 289 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:17.599 think it's anything. I still, to this day can't even find some of 290 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.599 the right words to be able to describe it. It's a miracle I'm even 291 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:25.920 able to have this interview. Like it's still the indoctrination runs so deep. 292 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.440 But that's when I read this book Pure. She was like, there's this 293 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:36.720 one part of the book where she describes how like piano players, you know, 294 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:41.079 if they're trained to play a chord, always the exact same way with 295 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.680 their pinky finger and their index finger going at the same time. You know 296 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:53.640 this one chord. If you then tape that pinky to another finger, it's 297 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:59.279 still no matter what. Any time you go, it will try and make 298 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:02.279 it. And they track this in the brain that like, even when you 299 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:07.000 try and rewire the brain or stop it from doing it, it will Because 300 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:15.200 of habit. You have now linked those things together, and you might be 301 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.799 able to still play the chord. You might be able to still do the 302 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:23.680 thing, But doesn't mean that that pinky doesn't move. And so she was 303 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:32.359 like when a person from the age when a woman, when a person or 304 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:36.519 not just a woman, because fuck that everybody's impacted by it, trans people, 305 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.960 non binary people, women and men. When a person is taught from 306 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:52.160 the age of eleven or eight that sex is bad, sex is meant only 307 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.839 in this very specific context, is only not even meant allowed, is okay, 308 00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:03.079 is approved of by a higher power in this specific way and specific time, 309 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.039 specific place. If you have it outside of those parameters that this higher 310 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:17.720 power has told you is okay, then every time you do it, shame 311 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:22.640 happens. And that they've proven that people who have walked away from the church. 312 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:30.359 I'm as queer as they come. I'm queer, I'm kinky, I'm 313 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.920 polly. I do a lot of freaky shit, and I still to this 314 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:45.000 fucking day, my body will freeze. Oh sure, yeah, yeah, 315 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.279 Pick a day, pick a time. I could be in the middle. 316 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:56.319 I could be strapped down, strapped on, I could have lingerie on, 317 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.279 or be absolutely completely naked. I could be in the middle it. I 318 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.680 could be at a restaurant, in a cafe and my partner might ask one 319 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:08.640 question, or a new bau or like a sweetie that I'm interested might ask 320 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:15.440 me something and I get triggered. My whole body will shut down. Yeah, 321 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:22.000 it's trauma response, exactly, exactly, And that was the way I 322 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.759 was. I was just like accepted, like sometimes I just don't Sometimes I 323 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.559 just shut down. And to be honest, I thought it was a response 324 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.559 to being a survivor. I really thought that was what it is, and 325 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:37.519 not to invalidate that trauma at all, but I know there are times when 326 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:45.359 it's definitely not that. Yeah, right, it's not a body shutting down. 327 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:49.160 It's a mind going I feel like I can't answer that question, and 328 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.200 I don't know why. It's weird. It's like a fog. I fucking 329 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:56.640 found out what that fog was. Dude, I found out what that fog 330 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:02.799 was. That fog was totally mental. It was I don't know what I 331 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:08.519 want because I was told never to know. I was told, I was 332 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.599 told that this is bad and I shouldn't do it. And it's it's not 333 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:19.000 a body shut down, it's a brain. Yeah. Yeah, And so 334 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:26.440 like looking back, like I I remember one time, I remember one time 335 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:32.119 writing, am I a lesbian? In my? In my? Or what 336 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.839 if I? What if I am alone? Because like I'm a pisces and 337 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.960 our songwriter, so like I've been journaling since like forever, you know, 338 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:44.039 and I remember writing like what if I'm a lesbian? Oh my god, 339 00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:45.519 that would be the worst. God would hate me. I would have to 340 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:49.559 kill myself like all this like stuff. And I remember crumpling it up and 341 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:56.200 being like that's crazy, no way, and like throwing it away and never 342 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:03.079 thinking about it ever again because of course, I like boys, that's what 343 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:08.319 I was gonna ask, which must be so confusing, and this I got 344 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:18.359 out inside of Yeah, when I found the word compet I was like shook. 345 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:25.440 I was absolutely shook. During the pandemic. Was that document? Was 346 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.200 it the Lesbian Master Doc. I don't know, I can't remember. I 347 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:33.680 just saw I think I just literally saw a TikTok of somebody. I bet 348 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.519 it was that yeah, this is yeah, yeah Compet and I was like, 349 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:44.440 wait, what is what is that? And that blew all my shit 350 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.319 up talking about that stuff with my partners and all the kisses and my queer 351 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.480 story and the self erasure, talking about it in therapy, learning about Compet, 352 00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.720 and then reading in twenty twenty two, reading Pure, I was like, 353 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.720 I'm going to burn this shit to the girl. What's like so fucking 354 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.359 I'm like, well, I know what my next album is about, and 355 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:15.000 that's that's that's what I'm doing now, that's what I'm talking about, what 356 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:20.079 I'm so curious about, And this is where I go outside of my own 357 00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.839 experience. Well that's not true because I'm gay, but I had crushes on 358 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.960 boys that felt real and were real, like in as much as you know 359 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:31.000 aesthetic attraction all that, the split attraction model, blah blah blah, but 360 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:40.559 I imagine for someone were you also experiencing attraction and interest that was in boys 361 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:45.039 at this time? I was, I imagine, so that must make the 362 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:51.079 girls stuff feel even more in valid absolute because you're you're feeling this real thing 363 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.480 and people are supporting it out loud exactly, so like, why would you 364 00:32:54.519 --> 00:33:00.759 think the other thing counts? Like it's so confusing. That's just welcome to 365 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:06.799 me being fourteen years old. Yeah, there was this one girl that I 366 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:21.599 was like just best friends with and I I loved her, and I didn't 367 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:24.720 know I loved her. Yeah, And I didn't know I loved her until 368 00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:31.720 I was thirty three years old. Oh wow, yeah yeah, and I 369 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:39.920 told her Yeah when you realized it thirty three, yep, I did. 370 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.519 Oh my. We hadn't spoken in like decades, and I was like, 371 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:55.000 I need to talk to you, mm hmm. And it was received with 372 00:33:55.119 --> 00:34:00.240 so much love and so much sweetness. It was you know, it was 373 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:06.920 a good story. It was really good story. But the acknowledgment of it 374 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:15.679 for myself was so healing to say to myself like I think I was in 375 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:17.760 love with you, or I know that I was in love with you, 376 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.159 and for her to be like, yeah, I know, I didn't know 377 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:28.239 it then too. I didn't know it then either, that I knew you 378 00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:34.159 were in love with me, and to hear her be like I wasn't afraid 379 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:39.559 of it. Oh wow, I know, dude, I know she said, 380 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:44.280 like everything right, everything right. Yeah, She's like such a It 381 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:47.159 was such a great like allied moment. It was really great. Yeah wow. 382 00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:52.239 But I I you know, I wore that True Love Waits ring. 383 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.920 I had boyfriends, you know, I was, but I was me, 384 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:02.400 you know, I would like toad that lie and like it's like wearing the 385 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.559 True Love Winks ring and giving a hand job in the back of my car, 386 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.480 you know what I mean, Like I what it is though, isn't 387 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:13.199 it like that's what I hear about the whole periodic culture thing. Oh yeah, 388 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:20.119 it's like totally yeah. So and then I, you know, I 389 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:28.239 went off to college and I went to school in in New York City and 390 00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:30.760 I studied musical theater, you know, and all my friends were gay. 391 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:37.840 Yeah, my friends were gay. And I remember there was this one girl 392 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:50.320 and and she came back after our first year and she she was a super 393 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.199 I mean, she was like super diikey, you know what I mean. 394 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:59.079 Like she was like full on lesbian, Like she wore her hair low, 395 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:05.440 like she had a like low pony like basketball player low pony, slicked back. 396 00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:09.480 And then she came back our secon our second year of college, and 397 00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:15.039 she had cut her hair off, and I was like, cook, what, 398 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:22.920 Like, I am unwell? And that was the year that I learned 399 00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:30.239 that, but can I this is what's so crazy about this. I still 400 00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:37.519 did not realize that my, oh my god, who are you? What's 401 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.039 happening? And I would talk to her like that, like I would be 402 00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:45.519 like, Hi, You're so cute. She's like, thank you so much. 403 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.000 What do you do? Are you flirting with me? And I'm like 404 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:52.880 no, but kind of yeah. And I would go home and I would 405 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:58.719 lay in my bed and I would think about her and do the things that 406 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:09.119 we do right, And I still had no idea, did not acknowledge that 407 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:15.199 that was a crush. Mm hmm. I have heard this on this podcast. 408 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:20.199 I bet you have so many times. Yeah, the denial that we 409 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:24.519 it goes so deep and it starts so young that it's like and there is 410 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:30.800 a big part of me that thinks that that's like preferable because the other side 411 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.800 of that is the people who did know and were tortured by it. And 412 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.079 this is that thing that's the whole like put a pushpin on the put a 413 00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:42.920 push pin on the bullying, on the bullying. The reason I didn't want 414 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.119 to come out, I really I had a lot of anger, Like when 415 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:51.840 I first realized this in like twenty twenty, I had a lot of anger 416 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:59.639 about the life I could have lived right, the queerness that I could have 417 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.599 had. Yeah, And I think it's there's a lot of queer people who 418 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:07.440 do There's a lot of people who are angry, and I do not want 419 00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:12.679 to raise there there there that's not It's not like it's not valid. It 420 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:17.159 is very valid. That anger is so valid, But maybe just offer some 421 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:23.760 perspective to anybody who also feels that way too. For me, I when 422 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:28.719 I looked back, it's not enough to just be like, damn it, 423 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:34.159 I could have been queer. To truly look back, I had to I 424 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:36.880 had to think about what it would have been like for me to come out 425 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:43.360 as queer. I would have lost my entire community. I would have been 426 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:50.679 not only bullied in school for being fat and a redhead and pale and freckled, 427 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:59.719 but then also gay. I had bipolar disorder, undiagnosed with tendencies for 428 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:06.519 it extreme depression. I think I didn't come out because I knew I was 429 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.960 protecting myself. I think I probably would have died. I would have killed 430 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:19.000 myself. I'm alive because I made that decision not to come out doesn't mean 431 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.280 that what happened is okay. It's a yes and situation. As a poly 432 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:27.639 person, I'm very familiar with yes and And I think that's a lot of 433 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.239 that is in there, Like I didn't come out and I actually saved my 434 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:36.760 life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that makes a lot of 435 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.719 sense. So but you know, here I am in college and like I 436 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:50.960 meet this girl and I kept like, you know, dating guys in New 437 00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:55.119 York. And that's when I, you know, I left. I graduated 438 00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:59.280 because I went to a two year training conservatory for musical theater, and I 439 00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.239 all of my friends were gay, like so many of them were gay and 440 00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:07.000 trans, and you know, bye, and I was just like still this 441 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:14.440 like straight ally super straight eye. But I remember that the non denominational church 442 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:20.840 that I went to in New York started talking about gay marriage and how gay 443 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.199 people, in like a very loving way, were like oh hate yeah, 444 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:30.000 oh yeah. Non denominational people are like, hey, come hang out with 445 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:34.599 us. It's so loving. But like also like don't do these things, 446 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.719 okay, because like God will send you to help. Okay, Okay, 447 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:42.639 it's like hate the sin, love the sinner. You can come to church. 448 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:45.519 I love you. Yeah, okay, okay, talking a loving way 449 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:53.920 with an asterisk. Oh yeah, yeah they surprised. Yeah, so they 450 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.599 they had this like they started talking about like gay people are going to go 451 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:01.559 to hell. And that was that was it for me. I was like, 452 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.960 I gotta walk away from church. I gotta way away from God. 453 00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.320 I've heard this too. That's when a lot of people, yeah left, 454 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:15.440 yeah right, And so I took a really big break away from the church 455 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:22.360 and from God around that time. And you know, I just I start 456 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.559 being like a full time musician. I started writing and living in my car 457 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:30.840 driving around the country. And it was at that time that I met my 458 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:36.079 now ex partner. But I met them and it changed everything. It was 459 00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:42.559 you are my person and oh my god, everything's changing. And that was 460 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.119 really when I actually finally came out when I was twenty five. Hey, 461 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:53.639 wow, where what state did you mean emotionally? Or Oh that's a great 462 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.440 yeah, unintended double on toagre no. But it sounds like you were living 463 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:02.199 this nomadic kind of yea lifestyles. So I'm curious like what their experience was 464 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:06.079 depending on where they were living, and like, yeah, they were living 465 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:09.000 in North Carolina and they had just graduated college. They were a couple years 466 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:16.320 younger than just a couple and I had I had met them in Colorado out 467 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:21.639 of music okay, oh okay, okay. And were they out were they 468 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.159 like yeah, fully realized or okay, okay, yeah, gotcha yep, 469 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:27.280 And they were like, oh my god, don't I'm not going to fall 470 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:30.920 for this straight girl. Yeah, totally. So when I came out to 471 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:39.639 my parents, you know, my dad was mowing the lawn and like I 472 00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:45.039 said, my my my parents are Christian, but they're like, you know, 473 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:49.920 Christian, former hippies, like liberal, Like I grew up with my 474 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.719 mom having you know, one of her best friends was a gay guy, 475 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:58.599 and like, you know, like my parents were always like they were democrats, 476 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:02.519 you know. Okay, so okay, when I came out my dad, 477 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.400 my dad was mowing the lawn and I like, I was like, 478 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:13.159 hey, I gotta I gotta talk to you. He like turned off the 479 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.519 mower and walked over. I was like, I just need to tell you 480 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.920 something. I can't wait anymore. And it's like really bothering me. But 481 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.960 like I think that I, well, i'm dating a woman. I don't 482 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:28.440 know what I am, but like I'm starting to see a woman. And 483 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:31.039 he was like, okay, hey, would you mind getting me a glass 484 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:36.039 of water? Oh? And like that was that was how I came out 485 00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:39.039 to my dad. Yes, then my mom. I told her in the 486 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:45.440 car because it's the only time I could get her, just her and not 487 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:50.440 like a bunch of other people. And I told her and her I was 488 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.079 like, I need to tell you something, and she goes, oh my 489 00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:53.199 god, you're pregnant. And I was like, why do you always ask 490 00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:59.280 me that? She's like, because you're you're like me and you're the fourth 491 00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:04.079 child. And I just I always think so every time I would say something 492 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.480 to her, she always asked me if I'm bringant, So it's like a 493 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:12.320 whole thing. So but she's like, why I tell her? You know, 494 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.440 I'm dating a woman, and I, you know, start to cry, 495 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:19.719 and because I told her first before my Dad's the first time I'm telling 496 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:23.320 somebody. And she goes, why are you crying? This should be a 497 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:30.559 happy thing. Oh gosh. And I feel like that sentence like says it 498 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:36.519 all about, like what my life is like with my parents, Like it's 499 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:42.079 nothing that I am queer, it's not a big deal that I'm Polly, 500 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:49.360 and like they don't understand why other parents and people don't support their children, 501 00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:54.639 Like you have one job as a parent, which is to love your child. 502 00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:00.920 Yes, Jesus Christ, Yes, right exactly. I'm so so glad 503 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:07.760 to hear that. Yeah. And now I am living in Tennessee and I 504 00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:15.639 live here with my partner of five years, who I've known for I mean 505 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:20.840 almost fifteen years. He was also a musician, Is that correct, that's 506 00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:23.440 right? Yes? Her Instagram a little bit okay, Oh yes, yes, 507 00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:28.719 she's such a cutie. Her name is Chris Matthews spelled c r y 508 00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:35.920 s, and she is She and I were really close friends for the majority 509 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:37.440 of the time that I've known her, but when we went on tour, 510 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:44.800 we fell in love. And that's where our that's where our relationship began, 511 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:47.800 was just being like, oh, you're the best I hope that we can 512 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:51.840 be best friends for the rest of our lives, and I want to talk 513 00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.719 to you every day. And we were both married at the time, and 514 00:45:54.760 --> 00:46:00.760 we both were both really we both really when the tour was over and we 515 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.400 had gone our you know, separate ways, really are I see? Yeah, 516 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.559 that both of us were just what we thought was like, you know, 517 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:12.440 post tour blues, but it was actually that we were love love sec 518 00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:17.119 yeah, and that's the beginning of our story. Can I ask about the 519 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.840 marriage? You're about your marriage? Yeah? Absolutely? Is that? Okay? 520 00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:23.880 Okay, totally? Yeah, No, I just when did that? 521 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:29.559 Was that the ex who you referenced that? Okay? Yeah, cool, 522 00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:34.800 that's okay, okay, So that's that's the first person I'm sorry, the 523 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:39.400 first uh woman you date and they're coming out realization, So that's yep. 524 00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:47.840 And then we also got married. Yeah try together dating people together? Yeah, 525 00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:54.079 okay, So you're doing you're jumping into the deep end on several different 526 00:46:54.519 --> 00:47:00.119 factors, so that's like a lot okay okay. And with the Polly coming 527 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:06.039 out, did that happen like almost simultaneously with your queer coming out or like 528 00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.920 how oh no, no, no, no, I'm curious. Oh yeash, 529 00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:14.599 I don't think my heart could have handled you know, all of that 530 00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:22.039 lesbian processing was like coming out coming time? Was she already identifying as Polly 531 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:27.960 when you met together later on, Yeah, yeah, we did that together. 532 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:35.880 So when I came out, you know, at the time, so 533 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.599 he's he's actually he his pronouns are he him? Okay? Together? During 534 00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:44.679 his transition? Oh my god? Is he? Is? He mentioned in 535 00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:50.440 the song is he the last verse of the okay gotcha together? Okay? 536 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:57.840 Yeah, and yeah, he's such a big part of my coming out story 537 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:05.000 and meeting him and at the time, you know, his pronouns were she 538 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:13.760 her, But meeting him was the opening and revealing opening of myself and the 539 00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:24.440 revealing of all that I did not acknowledge from before m hm. And you 540 00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:35.760 know, even though we're no longer together, I would not be able to 541 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:44.360 It wouldn't honor my coming out story if I didn't speak, you know, 542 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:51.239 about him, you know what I mean. And there still is there's still 543 00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:53.719 I mean, there's so much pain from the ending of our marriage. Still, 544 00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:59.400 you know, the loss, the extraction for every single person involved. 545 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:07.360 But and every single person I know that's ever gotten divorced says the same thing, 546 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.199 which is like, oh gosh, even if you're the one that left, 547 00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:15.119 even if you're the lever, or if you're the one that does the 548 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:22.920 leaving, there's the extraction of a person from your life is so painful and 549 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:31.960 so but especially because he was instrumental to my finding myself, that discovering who 550 00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:37.239 I am so true and not to be Like, here's how we have a 551 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:42.559 harder than storied people. But it's true that breakup. You're not just dealing 552 00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:47.679 with your first breakup, which is devastating regardless of how you identify, but 553 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:52.719 for queer people, more often than not, we are dealing with that compacted 554 00:49:53.119 --> 00:50:00.119 with the significance of that person in our entire identity and being Oh, it 555 00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:07.119 is harder than it's for Yeah, and I will like, I will acknowledge 556 00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:14.599 that, like this is my first interview about him, Like I'm on tape 557 00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:24.719 right now acknowledging his impact on my store, my coming out story since the 558 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.760 divorce. Oh, I think I appreciate you speaking on it because Yeah, 559 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:35.320 that's so goddamn herd. And I just love that he's in your song though, 560 00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:39.199 because that's such a like I don't know, like healing or like acknowledgement, 561 00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:45.119 like you're saying, like that's just such a beautiful thing that exists in 562 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:51.079 perpetuity regardless of where you two are at now. I think when other people 563 00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:57.159 listen to it, they hear they hear not knowing that, you know, 564 00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:00.679 especially new people. You know. I have some fans who are have been 565 00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:07.159 there for ten years and they watch our entire relationship. Wow yeah, and 566 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.320 then they hear the song and they know the story and they know the heaviness 567 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:15.599 for me behind it. But new fans come in and they hear the song 568 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:17.719 and they're like, oh, what a way to honor it, just like 569 00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.000 you said, like, what a way to honor it? And while that 570 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:32.159 is true, I now don't sing it for honoring our relationship. I sing 571 00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:38.760 it to and maybe there's a part of me that does. Maybe there is 572 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:44.960 a part of me that does. But it's for people who love like us, 573 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.599 you know. It's for like there are no love songs, and just 574 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:54.000 like to reference for the people that are listening, Like I have like a 575 00:51:54.039 --> 00:52:00.480 sneaky third verse at the end of the song that says, and I remember 576 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:06.519 when you changed your pronouns from her to him and you said do you still 577 00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:09.039 love me? And all I could do is smile, because I've been kissing 578 00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:13.599 girls. I've been kissing boys. I've been kissing girls as long as I've 579 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:20.400 been kissing boys, and the whole song I've been saying, like like there's 580 00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:23.760 it's like a sweet like bye song, right and then you and it's like 581 00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:28.559 uplifting and like poppy, big drums and stuff like that, and then at 582 00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:30.639 the end you get to this part where it's like also, by the way, 583 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:37.679 like the reason I kind of wrote this song is because I wanted my 584 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:43.840 partner to know, like I'm a I'm a by queer girl, like I 585 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.760 love you any form you take, and I see who you are and I 586 00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:53.519 see all of you, and yeah, I love my guy just like I 587 00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:57.840 loved my girl, right, and like I just want you to be you. 588 00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:05.880 And that was true for our entire relationship and it is true now too, 589 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:15.760 And so I wanted people like us to have a song because to my 590 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.000 knowledge, there are no well, at least, I mean, there are 591 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:23.840 millions of musicians in the world songwriters, but to my knowledge, I've never 592 00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:31.280 run across a song that says explicitly like I have been loved and I have 593 00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:43.440 loved a trans person, you know, And I am so grateful for the 594 00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:47.079 time that I had with him to be able to I mean, for so 595 00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:52.880 many reasons. I'm grateful millions and millions reasons, but I'm grateful for the 596 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:57.639 opportunity to be able to write this song because now this song is for everyone 597 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:05.360 else, for those couples who are going through transition together and are lining in 598 00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:13.400 yeah song, because divorce is really divorce is so like, oh my gosh, 599 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:19.039 divorce is so high. The divorce rate for trans transit people, couples 600 00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:23.760 and who experience one person going through transition is so high. The divorce rate 601 00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:30.800 is really high. But that's not why we divorced. That's divorce, and 602 00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:34.239 we didn't divorce. It had nothing to do with polyamory. It had nothing 603 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.800 to do with transitioning. It was just we were really good for each other 604 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:42.320 in our twenties and we're not good for each other in our thirties, you 605 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:49.800 know. So yeah, I know the song's only literally as we're recording. 606 00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.760 It's been out like twenty four just over twenty four hours. But I just 607 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.679 feel like you're going to get so much feedback specifically for that turn at the 608 00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.800 end, for the reason that you're saying, because I there aren't or I 609 00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:07.960 haven't heard songs that speak to that specific experience, and it's just it is 610 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:12.480 such as it's fun and it's poppy, like you're saying, and then it 611 00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:15.079 gives you like a little chills at you. It's just very yeah, and 612 00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:22.840 the video is so beautiful and yeah, yeah, and I know that there 613 00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:28.320 are like there are trans artists out there who are writing their stories and they're 614 00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:35.239 writing these amazing, amazing, beautiful love songs, but from their perspective of 615 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:43.079 like, yeah, the person who observed and did the caretaking and did the 616 00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:52.920 supporting and the bandage changing and the drain cleaning out and the everything that did 617 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:57.239 all of that. To have a song where they can look at their beloved 618 00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:04.559 and say this is how I feel about you is yeah. I wanted to 619 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:07.039 write that for them, and I hope that they do connect with it because 620 00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:12.920 it is a very important part of my coming out. Oh gosh, yeah, 621 00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:15.280 do you want to talk it all about just because you've been doing some 622 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:17.760 insist stories like and again it's so an it's twenty four hours. But some 623 00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:24.840 of the feedback you've been getting from folks on the sea, yeah, I 624 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:29.159 have been getting a lot of Oh my god, I feel so seen as 625 00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:35.480 a pan woman. I am currently in a relationship with two people one's a 626 00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:37.599 boy, one's a girl, and it just feels so sweet, you know, 627 00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:42.920 thank you for that sweetness. I'm beginning a lot of that from members 628 00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:49.400 of the bisexual community, people who are just identify as queer. And then 629 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.880 from my fans who are lesbians, who are like, you know, they 630 00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:58.920 see themselves in it because they're like, you know, their younger self is 631 00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:05.320 like I've been kissing girls secretly for so long, like you know. And 632 00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:10.000 and then of course, of course, my fans who are in relationships with 633 00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:16.800 people who are trans have sent me messages and so sweet videos of them slow 634 00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:22.119 dancing to it. Oh forehead kisses. It's oh my god, it's so 635 00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:27.079 sweet. Yeah. But then I'm you know, from the industry. It's 636 00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:30.599 been really great to be acknowledged, Like I got some positive reviews. It's 637 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:37.960 been really really great. Yeah, I'm so excited. I'm just so excited 638 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.440 for you. I hope it sound like everyone's like Pride playlist. I really 639 00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:44.599 hope so too. I mean, that's really my goal is for it to 640 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:49.719 be on the top of everybody's Pride playlist. Like yeah, if I'm being 641 00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:53.519 honest, like I would love that so much. So this is a perfect 642 00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:59.519 segue into how can people supported, where is the best place to listen, 643 00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:01.599 where can they watch the video? And also you want to talk about your 644 00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:06.840 your albums that you are going to be releasing, because this is just like 645 00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:12.239 the start of a much bigger project. Yeah right, Yeah, So I've 646 00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.440 released four singles now this year. I did two in March, one in 647 00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:22.320 April, and this one in a week before Pride. They can find me. 648 00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:31.119 I'm at Heather May Music on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter, and yeah, 649 00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:37.320 my website's heathermaymusic dot com. And you can listen to the music wherever 650 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:44.079 you stream or download. And the song is called Kissing Girls. And I 651 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:45.920 would love for them to send it, not just listen to it, but 652 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:53.239 then send it to somebody in or out of the closet, because I really 653 00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:57.880 hope it. Yeah, I know there's so many people that share a similar 654 00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:00.920 story to mine, and that's why I'm writing the songs I'm writing. You 655 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:06.440 know, the bridge says, and I don't know why I'd kiss and tell 656 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:10.079 about everyone except the ones I felt I should lock away from the light who 657 00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:15.000 put those thoughts there because they're not mine. It doesn't have to be either 658 00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:21.000 or I'm kissing in the sun now, I'm not hiding anymore. And I 659 00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:27.320 feel like the people that listen to that song, who need it, who 660 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:31.920 share a similar story to mine, you know, they'll feel what we were 661 00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:37.719 hoping, you know, to really put into that song, which is the 662 00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:46.159 sonic embodiment of queer joy and liberation. So yeah, come find me, 663 00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:51.400 come hang out with me. Ah, I love it. You were, 664 00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:54.519 Heather. You were just the perfect ast to kick off Pride. Thank you 665 00:59:54.679 --> 01:00:00.199 so much, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Oh yeah, 666 01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:02.360 no, this was like I said, I was looking for a guest 667 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:07.039 to start off the month, and then when your reps reached out and I 668 01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.320 watched the video and heard the song, I was like, this is how 669 01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:14.239 I want to start Pride. Amazing love. Thank you for having me, 670 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:16.880 Lauren. Oh my gosh, thank you for coming on. I'm gonna okay, 671 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:19.800 let's see if I can remember this. It's been a few months, 672 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.159 so the podcast is at Coming Out pod everywhere that hasn't changed. I'm at 673 01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:30.119 Lauren Flans on Twitter, Lauren Underscore Flans on Instagram. Thank you for those 674 01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:32.599 who are still patrons, thank you. But also, as I said on 675 01:00:32.719 --> 01:00:37.679 Hiatus, please feel free to It's hard times. We're all struggling, we're 676 01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:43.320 all cash strapped, so please if you need to cancel your patronage, totally 677 01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:47.000 get that. I will be releasing another episode to close out Pride one, 678 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:51.519 so another one coming up. Yeah, And in the meantime, if you 679 01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:53.400 a nice thing to do during Pride, if you haven't done so already, 680 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:58.400 if you want to rate the pod uh five stars on either Spotify mobile or 681 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.559 on iTunes that is healthful, leave a review or something. But I'm just 682 01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:07.960 so happy to be back and talking to you again. And we'll be releasing 683 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:13.239 another episode at the end of Pride to celebrate that. Thank you so much, 684 01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:16.599 Heather. Everybody go listen to the song. Scream the song, share 685 01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:20.679 it with your friends, put it on your Pride playlist, and definitely watch 686 01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:22.719 the video. It is just it's so sweet, there's so much love in 687 01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:28.199 it. Yeah, and just such a joy to talk to you. You 688 01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:30.599 too, happy Pride? All right, y'all, I'll see in a few 689 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:37.440 weeks. Bye bye. My house was loud, hers was quiet, so 690 01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:44.480 we sink down to the basement. But her race as she closed the door. 691 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.800 I guess because I was the bigger one. I play the dad cheek, 692 01:01:52.920 --> 01:02:00.079 play the No. One man, but we always end up kiss I 693 01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:16.719 have been kissing girls as long as I've been kissing boys. Jo with