1 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,679 Well, we're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily 2 00:00:20,719 --> 00:00:23,719 Jishinski, culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,519 the show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit FDRLST, 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,559 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,719 the premium version of our website, The Federalist dot Com as well. Happy 6 00:00:34,759 --> 00:00:39,000 Friday. I'm so excited to be joined today by a student journalist and commentator 7 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:44,000 actually at Columbia University on the ground right now doing some excellent reporting, and 8 00:00:44,039 --> 00:00:47,520 that would be Jonas dou He is the editor in chief and founder of the 9 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:53,640 Columbia Sundial, a campus magazine dedicated to investigative journalism and political discourse and the 10 00:00:53,759 --> 00:00:58,280 latest heterodox publication in the IVY League. It's a great outlet. I absolutely 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,280 recommend you check it out. As an editor at the Columbia Daily Spectator's opinion 12 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,120 section back in twenty twenty two, and was an editorial intern at Reason Magazine 13 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,239 in twenty twenty three. This summer, he's going to be joining our friends 14 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:12,200 at the Free Press as an intern. Jonas, thanks for coming on the 15 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:17,159 show. Thank you so much for having me Emily. Yeah, of course 16 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,400 I'm really excited to talk to Jonas because he was one of our National Journalism 17 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:26,120 cent Our interns last summer and fantastic. Just a pleasure, Jonas to be 18 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:29,079 able to talk to you about some of the work you've been doing since then, 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:34,879 especially given all of the hours you've spent documenting the really historic demonstrations on 20 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,400 your campus right now. So first, Jonas, just tell us a little 21 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:42,799 bit about what's been going on. I know people have seen the headlines, 22 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,040 they've seen the clips that have gone viral, but tell us just a little 23 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,079 bit about kind of how this started and what's going on right now. Yeah, 24 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,519 absolutely, so, I think, well let me just start off with 25 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,599 you know, after October seventh, there I've been protests around Columbia pretty regularly. 26 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,640 They were very intense in October and November, and then they died down 27 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,639 a little bit over winter break and then kind of revived a little bit back 28 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:15,000 in January and February. But you know, Colombia is known as a protest 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,759 school. We have a culture of activism here. We have a story tradition 30 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:24,800 of kids coming in protesting for causes they believe in including infamously in nineteen sixty 31 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:30,439 eight where protesters occupied buildings and they had to call the police sin and that 32 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,400 was sort of diminished the university's reputation, and again in nineteen eighty five where 33 00:02:35,439 --> 00:02:42,639 there were protests against investment in South Africa because of the apartheid state that was 34 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,599 going on there. And now the protesters today see today's movement in Israel and 35 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:53,479 Palestine as a continuation of that tradition. So then that brings us to April. 36 00:02:53,039 --> 00:03:00,199 And on April seventeenth, I believe, last Wednesday, university president Minushafik 37 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:07,599 was scheduled to testify in front of the House Education Committee to talk about how 38 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,960 she was dealing with the rampant allegations of anti Semitism that I've taken over campus 39 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,039 in the surrounding community since October seventh. And so the same day that she 40 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:24,439 was in DC testifying, her pro Palestinian protesters decided that they were going to 41 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,159 occupy one of the lawns, one of the main lawns of the university and 42 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:31,879 set up what they called a Gaza solidarity encampment, and they had a big 43 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,800 science saying this was a liberated zone. They had a bunch of tents set 44 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,000 up and they were sitting there and they intended to stay there until the university 45 00:03:39,039 --> 00:03:45,000 committed to divest from Israel. What exactly that means, we're not all entirely 46 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,240 sure. There's some debate around that, but that was their main demand. 47 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:54,240 They also wanted Columbia to close the opening of their Tel Aviv Global Center and 48 00:03:54,599 --> 00:04:01,120 canceled the dual degree program with Tel Aviv University because alleged the Palestinian students would 49 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,680 be denied access on basis of their nationality. So these were some of their 50 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:11,960 demands, and they wanted Columbia to also acknowledge that it was a genocide, 51 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:16,120 along with other sort of political statements they wanted the university to make. So 52 00:04:16,319 --> 00:04:20,759 you know, that happened on Wednesday, and you know, everybody was out 53 00:04:20,759 --> 00:04:24,920 there observing. The university was trying to fit them to leave, trying to 54 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:27,439 tell them, you know, you're breaking the rules, you're not allowed to 55 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,319 camp on the campus, and you know, they refused to leave, obviously, 56 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:38,360 because this was their whole strategy. And then on Thursday, the NYPD 57 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:44,720 was basically called in. The SHIFTFI President Shaffik called in the NYPD because they 58 00:04:44,759 --> 00:04:47,519 were repeated warnings and they had refused to leave, and then NYPD came in 59 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,800 saying, look, we're going to arrest you if you don't leave, because 60 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,279 you're trespassing at this point. So they ended up arresting over one hundred students. 61 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:58,720 Well, basically it felt like the entire school was around the lawns just 62 00:04:58,879 --> 00:05:04,720 watching in the NYPD basically raid the encampment, and the whole time they were 63 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,560 shouting like no justice, no peace, like F the police, and also 64 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:15,920 things like NYPD KKK IOF they're all the same. IOF refers to what they 65 00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:19,680 call the Israeli Defense Forces, which they call the Israeli occupation Forces. So 66 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,519 Thursday was when things really spiked with the NYPD coming on. But I don't 67 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:30,519 know why the administration didn't anticipate this, because then they migrated to the lawn 68 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,240 that was ten feet over and they just jumped the fence and set up what 69 00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:38,759 is now the current Cause of Solidarity encampment there. And they've been there since 70 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,199 Thursday, and you know, it's grown into a fully fledged village and I'm 71 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,759 happy to talk about what I've witnessed there as well. And there have been 72 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:53,319 protests that they've spawned from inside the encampment as well as just around marching around 73 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:58,800 the campus, and every prop house didn't. An organization and student group from 74 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,759 New York City has been flooding into Morningside Heights tow one hundred and sixteenth Street 75 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,800 on all sides of the campus to common protest and make noise and show their 76 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,360 support for the encampment. And that's really made it a very chaotic scene. 77 00:06:12,439 --> 00:06:16,800 And even though Colombia has shut down the gates, it's Colombia id access only 78 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:21,079 it's you can't avoid them. You can't avoid them. They're everywhere, They're 79 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:25,160 always there at all hours. The encampment is in the center of a campus, 80 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:29,040 and especially at night, even until like one two am sometimes they're out 81 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,720 there protesting. So that's the situation as an overview right now. No, 82 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,920 that is an incredible overviewing, extremely helpful, and I think it was also 83 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,160 a very like fair overview. One of the things I want to zero in 84 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:46,519 on just quickly is that question about the permission for camping, because I think 85 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,600 a lot of this actually does have to come down to if you know, 86 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:57,319 civil disobedience, for example, is about being disobedient to you know, existing 87 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,680 regulations or laws. Is anyone denying that students are allowed to pamp that they're 88 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:08,000 following all of the university laws. It seems to me like something that's baked 89 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,839 into this protest is explicitly disobeying some of the rules of the university. See 90 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,560 this is a really good point, because this is a question that has fascinated 91 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:24,040 me since last Wednesday. And I think you're right that this is a form 92 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,360 of civil disobedience, and I think most of the protesters would call it a 93 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:32,160 form of civil disobedience. However, where I don't understand where there's some confusion, 94 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:40,000 especially among people who are not sort of in the encampment and are looking 95 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,879 on or people that are on the pro Israel side, is the whole point 96 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,040 of civil disobedience is that you are breaking the law, is that you are 97 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,759 willing to pay a price. It's peaceful, but you're willing to pay a 98 00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:55,839 price for it. And what the protester's done is they've used the language of 99 00:07:55,879 --> 00:07:58,839 the First Amendment, They've used the language of free speech, and they've used 100 00:07:58,839 --> 00:08:03,160 the language of peaceful protests to now try to convince the administration and the student 101 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:09,000 body to indulge them in their unlawful behavior, which is not what civil disobedience 102 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:11,120 is about. You can say that you have a First Amendment right to peaceful 103 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,120 protests, and I fully support that. But as soon as you start saying 104 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,879 you have a First Amendment right to break university rules and to you know, 105 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:24,759 not face consequences for your action, then it becomes you're trying to You're trying 106 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:30,120 to, you know, have both sides, and that's that's it's not how 107 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,519 it works basically, right like Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, like, 108 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,360 there's these stoic images that are very powerful in American history. They weren't denying 109 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:41,360 that these rules existed. They were denying that the rules themsel are. They 110 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:46,039 were affirming that the rules themselves in many cases, you know, lunch counters 111 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:50,039 or the bus were immoral. I don't know that there's actually been a concerted 112 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,480 effort to say students, you know what their main point of the protest is 113 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:56,879 not students should be able to camp on the law. And the point of 114 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:00,759 the protest to your point, John Us that you made is about divest like 115 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,919 BDS divest, Columbia should divest from Israel. Yes, precisely, that's their 116 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,039 point, the encampment is just a way to get attention for it. And 117 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:13,440 one of the things I'll give you some examples of some of the discourse we've 118 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,840 been seeing around this is that, you know, Students for Justice in Palestine 119 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,759 or Columbia University APARTHI divest, which is a coalition of over one hundred clubs 120 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:30,679 that have supported the divestment movement. They routinely put out statements saying Colombia is 121 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,600 cracking down on peaceful protests, Colombia doesn't support free speech, there's a crackdown 122 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:37,519 on free speech, and they've they've used this sort of language to now gain 123 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,159 support from students who otherwise would have been indifferent. But they're like, wait, 124 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,759 hold on a second, I support peaceful protests, I support free speech. 125 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,159 Why are people getting arrested for peaceful protests? But the thing is that, 126 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,600 yes, it's peaceful, but it's not free speech. And you know, 127 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,000 another thing is that you know, they're they're starting to say things like, 128 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,440 you know, breaking news, Columbia has denied our request to set up 129 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,399 tents despite the cold and the rain, as if they didn't have dorms and 130 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,960 apartments that they themselves had. So it's it's just they've sort of shifted the 131 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,440 reality of the situation to now normalize camping as a valid, valid form of 132 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,200 protests and they don't want to face any consequences for it. So that again, 133 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,879 it does get to an important point and it speaks to the NYPD response, 134 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,240 and Jonas, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what the 135 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:30,279 kind of heart of that debate is, because on the left they're saying, 136 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,879 you know, this is a sixty eight esque crackdown on peaceful protesters. I 137 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:37,320 imagine there's some more nuance to it from someone who saw that up close. 138 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,759 I actually haven't delved into the like NYPD question very closely myself, So could 139 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:45,159 you maybe walk us through a little bit of what was going on with that? 140 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:54,440 Yeah, So on last Thursday, basically the university had been repeatedly giving 141 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,960 them different deadlines, different notices, being like, hey, look your brain 142 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:05,080 making all of these rules. You have to leave now or you could face 143 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,720 suspension in other consequences. And they knew that the police was a possibility, 144 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:16,360 They knew that the NYPD may be called in, and they, according to 145 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,360 some reporting done by some journalists on the ground that day, they had taken 146 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:26,279 a vote basically saying, are you willing to get arrested for this? And 147 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,919 it was a blind vote, and not a single person raised their hand, 148 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,399 according to somebody who counted the votes, and so they were they're ready to 149 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:39,759 be arrested. And so around one pm people started noticing the NYP buses were 150 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:45,919 around campus people and then officers started coming into campus and entering the lines and 151 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,759 announcing over megaphones that you know, if they left now, they wouldn't face 152 00:11:50,799 --> 00:11:54,720 consequences. But they continued to stay there. So eventually they were put into 153 00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:00,080 zip ties and and you know, escorted off campus. And I think that 154 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,559 they really did try to make this like nineteen sixty eight. Starting from the 155 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:09,879 first day of the encampment, they posted on Instagram doing like a nineteen sixty 156 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,200 eight picture versus a twenty twenty four picture, and so they really do see 157 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,480 themselves in that mold. But it's a very different experience, and that's not 158 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,440 something that they're talking about a lot. I spoke to presidential candidate Cornell West 159 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:31,919 on Thursday, who was on the new encampment after the protesters had been arrested. 160 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:33,200 We had a couple words with him. We had a couple of questions 161 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,639 because he has been around for a while and he knows what nineteen sixty eight 162 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,200 was like and what he says. He obviously is pro Palestinian, and he 163 00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:46,159 supports their whole cause, and he supports the divestment. But we asked him 164 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,080 what he thought about nineteen sixty eight versus twenty twenty four, and what he 165 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,399 said was it's different because the students in nineteen sixty eight could actually have been 166 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,720 drafted into the Vietnam War. And there was actually a lot that the university 167 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:03,120 could have done to support the causes that they were protesting, one of which 168 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,759 was the building of a gym in Morningside Park, which is just a few 169 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,759 blocks from campus. Columbia wanted to build a massive gym on public land, 170 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:16,960 and to compromise with the Harlem community, they would have offered a portion of 171 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,480 it to be accessible to the Harlem community. And given the racial dynamics of 172 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:28,320 that era, that was very controversial and it felt like segregation, especially Columbia 173 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,320 being a very much mostly white school back in nineteen sixty eight, So that 174 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:39,039 was something that was actually in Colombia's control. You know how many civilians that 175 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,759 gets killed in Gaza is not really in Colombia's control, so there's a major 176 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:50,679 difference there. And what mister West told us was that the students today have 177 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,679 to think a lot more critically in order to understand why they're supporting the movement, 178 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,080 as opposed to before, it was very easy to see the connection. 179 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,320 And where I differ from West is I don't think students are thinking critically at 180 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,559 all. I don't think they understand what they're supporting and how the university can 181 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,080 actually support their cause. And I don't think they understand very much about the 182 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:16,879 movement in general. American jobs are good, bad, and ugly. The 183 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:20,159 Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the 184 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:24,919 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Don't look 185 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,519 at that headline number that the politicians are spewing on TV. Although more Americans 186 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,519 are employed, they're all working for the government. Even worse, most of 187 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:37,320 them are part time employees. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall 188 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,399 Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on 189 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,960 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get 190 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:50,399 your podcasts, Okay, I want to That's exactly where I wanted to go 191 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,000 next, because on the show that I co host with Ryan Grimm, who 192 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:58,960 somebody who's very much in this anti Israel space, we u and it's, 193 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,279 you know, it's a good upper coortunity to kind of go back and forth 194 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,120 on some of this stuff. But it was what we interviewed one of your 195 00:15:03,159 --> 00:15:09,759 peers actually for sure, Columbia law student who is a leader in the encampment 196 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,440 and is also Jewish. And so we've talked a little bit about what the 197 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:20,320 anti Israel left might be getting wrong in the national conversation here about what's happening 198 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,440 on the ground and campus. Jonas, I wanted to get you to talk 199 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,840 a little bit about what the protest actually looks like because as we are talking, 200 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:33,120 like I've been writing a story this afternoon about how I think you're right 201 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:39,200 that genuinely a lot of the students here have no idea what they're actually or 202 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:45,039 I don't have sort of have a fuzzy idea of what the protest is actually 203 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,360 capable of accomplishing, what the ends are, how their intended ends might match 204 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,919 up with some of the more radical organizers intended ends. Can you just give 205 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,720 us a little bit of a picture of who these students are as you've talked 206 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,440 to the over the last couple of weeks. Yeah, absolutely, So I 207 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:10,679 think my first impression when I step on to Columbus campus is, you know, 208 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,279 why are all these white and Asian and just non Arab people wearing cafeinists. 209 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:18,720 It's like, just it It's become a little bit absurd at this point. 210 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,879 It's like you walk into the library and like the person who sit next 211 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:26,960 to is like clearly not like genetically or whatever connected to whatever is going on, 212 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:32,879 but they're they're wearing these scars, they're going into the encampment, they're 213 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,879 chanting in Arabic. So I think overall, my impression is that this has 214 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,440 become, you know, one of those intersectional movements like we saw in twenty 215 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:48,200 twenty with the racial discourse. Then it's very much about power structures. It's 216 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:55,320 very much about being anti Western, anti capitalist, anti you know, American 217 00:16:55,519 --> 00:17:00,440 essentially, and they see Israel and the war in Gaza as just one and 218 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,359 the same as that, and that's how you reach the twisted logic of like 219 00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:10,720 transgenders for Palestine or you know, Dykes for Divestment or Lesbians for Liberation, 220 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:12,720 all of which are real posters that I've seen and taken pictures of. By 221 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:18,480 the way, it doesn't make any sense because it doesn't matter how you know, 222 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,640 the government in Gaza actually treats people of these identities or women or whatever. 223 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,720 This is a feminist cause, this is an LGBT liberation issue because it's 224 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:30,240 all part of part of the power structure. And so you know, what 225 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:36,920 we once saw as a calls for ceasefire, you know, immediately in October, 226 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,279 that was what movement was mainly about. It was, you know, 227 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:41,319 let's get a seasfire, let's stop fighting. People are dying. It's now 228 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,960 become a you know, let's get a seaspire. But let's also call for 229 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:49,279 the you know, death to the state of Israel and also, you know, 230 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,519 a worldwide liberation movement, and that's what they mean when they say things 231 00:17:52,559 --> 00:18:03,039 like globalize the intopada. That is again so helpful, and that also raises 232 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,519 the important I think conversation to be had and the student that I spoke with 233 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:15,079 on Counterpoints the other day actually sort of expressed her frustration and other organizers frustration 234 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:22,000 that may be in sort of that more power structure, let's say, ideological 235 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:29,720 persuasion about why they're actually camping out. They're frustration with some clear legitimate anti 236 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:33,920 semitism, whether it's speakers at you know, the People's mic or you know, 237 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:40,119 professional ANTIFA protesters or Antifa seeming protesters that have been doing some of those 238 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,359 off off campus chants. There have been plenty of stuff on campus though. 239 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,000 There has been plenty of stuff on campus though, of course, So Jonas, 240 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,240 could you tell us a little bit about what you've seen, and you 241 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:52,680 know, this isn't I don't mean this in a leading question sense, but 242 00:18:52,759 --> 00:19:00,759 like how representative some of that anti semitism is of the broader attitude of you 243 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:06,759 know, your classmates. So anti semitism has been something we've been talking about 244 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:15,799 first and foremost since October, and especially this past week, anti semitism allegations 245 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:21,279 on campus have absolutely ramp up, both from a personal anecdotal standpoint and from 246 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,680 just a statistical standpoint just seeing you know, what's going on on social media, 247 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:30,119 what people are talking about, and so what has happened is that on 248 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:36,200 one hand, we have the encampment and those protesters who are saying things that 249 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,079 we have always expected them to say from the river to the sea right into 250 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,240 Fada, and also some things that are like vaguely anti Semitic, like like 251 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:47,480 we don't want like two states, we want we want it all Palestine will 252 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,920 be Arab, things like that. But at the end of the day, 253 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,079 these are things that are debatable that I think both sides have some sort of 254 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,319 like valid is this is this not anti semitism claim, It's not overtly like 255 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,559 we want to kill Jewish people. But then we have the outside campus protest 256 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:08,640 where people that are not Columbia affiliates have come in and just chanted just terribly 257 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:15,519 antismatic things. I captured on video protesters shouting at three Jewish friends of mine 258 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:19,680 that they wished October seventh to be every day for them just lately on campus. 259 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,480 This was not on campus. This was right outside of campus gates where 260 00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:29,440 a lot of the outside protests have been stationed. So there was sort of 261 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,079 like a difference there, But then slowly it became less and less of like 262 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:38,279 a clear line between like the more peaceful stuff on campus was the not peaceful 263 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:44,599 stuff off campus. And that happened around the weekend around Friday Saturday, and 264 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,960 so what has happened. Part of it is because the university didn't have control 265 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,920 over its skates, people were sneaking in through gaps in the gates. That's 266 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,160 a story that we reported on and we actually have a video of somebody doing 267 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,960 it. And part of it is because more and more people started to join 268 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,359 the encampment. In that movement, people who were willing to say anti Semitic 269 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,640 things, and as much as they tried to control that, they haven't really 270 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,200 been able to get a good grasp on that. And that's how we've seen 271 00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:18,400 protesters Jewish counter protesters uh splashed with water. For instance, there was a 272 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,200 very famous picture of a girl standing next to them with a sign that said 273 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:29,400 Alcasan's next targets Alas the military wing of Hamas and just you know, ant 274 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,240 very anti Semitic things happening. And and that was also around the time where 275 00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:38,680 I had I had a friend go into the encampment and you know, no 276 00:21:38,839 --> 00:21:44,920 visible signs of you know, Zionism or whatever other than she looked Jewish. 277 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,160 One of her friends was weighing a star of David, I believe, and 278 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,359 they didn't really like, you know, they were they were stopped at the 279 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,359 gate. They were they told her like, you need to agree to our 280 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,359 community guidelines, and they're like, well, these aren't like Columbia's rules, 281 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,160 so we're just going to go in if you don't mind. So, you 282 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,359 know, they went in. And I think it was a combination of the 283 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,000 fact that they seemed hostile to the rules that they had set up for the 284 00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:11,000 encampment, plus that they looked Jewish that resulted in that very famous video of 285 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,599 the cult like people's mic chant, where they just say, we have Zionists 286 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,200 who have entered the camp and we're going to push them out. And you 287 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,440 know, we have seen more and more instances of that, of signs popping 288 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:26,839 up, for instance, saying just just calls for violence, being like, 289 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,519 you know, if you if you only stand with the camp, but you 290 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,000 don't stand with the rockets that are being fired from Gaza, you know, 291 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:36,839 you're not really one of us. There was one sign like that. There's 292 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,079 sort of other other murmurings of anti Semitism coming from within campus that have become 293 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,680 really concerned. But overall, I do I think that most of the protesters 294 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,279 in the encampment, you know, hate Jewish people. Probably not, but 295 00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:55,640 I think some of them definitely hold anti Semitic beliefs, and a lot of 296 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:02,599 them say anti Semitic things without realizing it. Again, like such helpful nuance. 297 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,160 And this isn't to downplay, by the way, some examples like Kimmanni 298 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:08,759 James. Have you seen some of those reporting journais You may have even been 299 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:12,480 I'm sure you're very aware of this with Kimanie. Actually, yes, Kimani 300 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:17,119 James one of the leaders of the encampment. So yeah, clue was in 301 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,319 on this a little bit, because you can explain it better than I can. 302 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,720 You have way more knowledge. So what's going on with Kimmanni James, 303 00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:25,240 one of your fellow Columbia students, who is an organizer of this protest and 304 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,359 has said things like quote highness don't deserve to live. Yeah, So Kimmanie 305 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:40,279 James is a very interesting case. So when when Jessica Schwalb, the journalist 306 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:45,160 who recorded the clip of the cult La Chant, when she shared me the 307 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:48,559 video I was circulating that I was showing other people saying like this is crazy, 308 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,880 how this is happening. One of my friends actually recognized the guy and 309 00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:56,559 said, wait, I had class with him. Freshman year. I can't 310 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,880 believe he's now out here saying things like that, and so, you know, 311 00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:07,599 we looked him up and instantly you saw hits of him from high school 312 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,279 saying at a school board meeting in Boston, which is where he's from, 313 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:18,480 saying things like I hate all white people, and then tweeting out he basically 314 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,599 screamed that at a school board meeting because he was like a student representative of 315 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,680 something, and and you know, tweeting out years and years later that he 316 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:32,000 repeatedly stood by that statement. And so then you know, the so several 317 00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:34,279 Twitter accounts and another journalist looked into you know, who this guy was, 318 00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:40,200 and they uncovered these videos from January of him basically ranting on a live stream 319 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:44,000 saying that, you know, he doesn't think Zionists deserved to live because he 320 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,680 believes that it's, you know, a genocidal ideology and if you believe in 321 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,000 a genocidal ideology, then you too should die, and just saying things like 322 00:24:52,519 --> 00:24:56,279 Zionus should be grateful that he's not out there killing them, and I think 323 00:24:56,319 --> 00:25:03,119 that well, he did put the statement saying that what he said was wrong. 324 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:07,640 Interestingly, he did not use the word sorry or apologize, I believe, 325 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,240 And he also kind of blamed all of it on like what he called 326 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,319 the right wing provocateurs or something, so you know, he doesn't seem terribly 327 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,079 apologetic. He did say it was wrong, but I think that it's sort 328 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,680 of lifting, the lifting of the veil of the ideology of of some of 329 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:32,119 the more extreme people where for this this racial consciousness, this hatred of the 330 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,799 of people and structures they perceived to be in power, such as you know, 331 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,880 white people such as America, such as Israel. It's all connected from 332 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:45,640 them, and that's why they're so passionate about about this, this Palestinian cause. 333 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,960 And I think Kamani James and I think see you. I think Columbia 334 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:56,119 University, part that divest has really struggled to distance themselves from Kamanie James, 335 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,880 which only affirmed a lot of what people thought because people were like, well, 336 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,000 I do think that you know, the people in there, like you 337 00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:08,480 know, are calling for violence and really have very anti synthetic beliefs about Zionists. 338 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,720 But you know, there was never any explicit evidence of then, never 339 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:18,960 any explicit demonstration of that. But now that Kammannie James's past record has resurfaced, 340 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,440 a lot of people are looking at and saying, well, how many 341 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:29,039 how many other people also believe the same things, And that also brings up 342 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:33,519 this issue of how the school is responding. You know, does Kammannie James 343 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:37,119 get punished, should Kamanie James get punished based on what the rules are? 344 00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:41,279 You know? Basically the part of the question is does that violate you know, 345 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,839 saying that as a student of Columbia University, even back in January, 346 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,559 is there something in the Columbia University Code of Conduct that that violates? Or 347 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:56,000 would something in the code of conduct be used to say that a conservative student 348 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,880 or a libertarian student, or you know, any kind of student that just 349 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,599 sense from sort of campus leftism, would it be wheeled in a way that 350 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,880 is a double standard that does target you know, one of those kids, 351 00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:11,319 And that brings up this bigger issue of how the school has responded in general. 352 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,240 Jonas so big question there, But I actually think this Kimani James case 353 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:19,599 is a good jumping off point into that that broader question of how Columbia has 354 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:26,240 handled it. Yeah, absolutely so. When I arrived at Columbia and started 355 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:33,920 becoming interested in the first Amendment and First Amendment law and pre speech principles. 356 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:40,359 Especially as someone who was interested in journalism, I was under the impression that 357 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:44,960 Columbia, under the leadership of then President Lee Bollinger, who was a very 358 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,920 notable First Amendment scholar, was committed to upholding the principles of the First Amendment 359 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:55,200 even though it was a private institution. And so what that means is that 360 00:27:55,559 --> 00:28:00,400 statements like Kamani's and others such basically almost every every single thing that you're hearing 361 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,240 from the protest in and around campus is essentially you know, protected speeches, 362 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:10,960 essentially speech that the university says, in theory they wouldn't punish students for because 363 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,839 it doesn't amount to direct incitement of violence, it doesn't amount to you know, 364 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,279 threats or harassment for you know, various reasons, because it's not consistent 365 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,319 or because it doesn't live up to the legal standard. And of course, 366 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,039 the First Amendment provides very very robust protections for hate speech and for speech like 367 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:33,240 that, and I think what we've seen since October seven under the new leadership 368 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:37,839 is a gradual erosion of those principles. And now I'm not saying that that's 369 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,000 necessarily a bad thing for a private institution like Columbia to do. I actually 370 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:48,920 think there might be some merits to having slightly more restrictive speech codes, but 371 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:55,240 that's something that we have yet to debate. What they've done is essentially broadened 372 00:28:55,599 --> 00:29:00,279 what it means to you know, say unprotected speech or insightolence to include things 373 00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:06,240 like calls for violence and calls for genesid you know, fire. The Foundation 374 00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:12,160 for Individual Rights and Expression they came out with a article, a great article 375 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:18,400 after October seven saying, you know why most calls for genocide are actually protected 376 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,160 under the first minute, because it doesn't actually amount to a direct incitement of 377 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:25,720 violence. Obviously, these things have no place on a university campus, which 378 00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:30,680 is why I think that the university has kind of a right to regulate those 379 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:33,400 kinds of speech. But what we've seen is a gradual, you know, 380 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:41,759 crackdown on speech that's not quite unprotected, but speech that is blatantly anti Semitic 381 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,200 or promotes terrorism or promotes violence. And so that's why we had an event 382 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:51,400 back in March. It was called Resistance one oh one, and it was 383 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,480 sponsored by some of the pro Palestinian groups and they invited like one they invited 384 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:02,359 for speakers, one of which was allegedly a member of a designated terrorist organization. 385 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:04,960 He was on zoom. Some of the other people were in person. 386 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:11,519 Colombia had denied this event for obvious reasons, and so they held it in 387 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,440 a residence hall anyways, against the rules. And in the event they said, 388 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,559 you know, you know our friends at Hamas and you know, there's 389 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:22,119 something wrong with being a lass fighter and just you know, things that were 390 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,240 basically caused for violence. And Columbia, you know, looked at this and 391 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:27,880 said, look, you broke the rules. You invited the terrorist leader. 392 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,640 We're going to suspend the students who are involved in planning this. And so 393 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,039 they did. But you know, under you know, two years ago, 394 00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:40,359 what they would have said was protected expression under the First Amendment has now become 395 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,160 something that they're willing to discipline. And I think Camanie James, it will 396 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,920 be interesting to see if the university will react to his recordings in January. 397 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:53,960 I would imagine that he would face some kind of discipline for that kind of 398 00:30:55,119 --> 00:31:00,880 conduct because I do think that it violates the current code of conduct about inciting 399 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:06,880 violence and calling for violence and you know, just you know, general standards 400 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,319 of respect and decency. Now, a few things are more enlightening than being 401 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:18,960 part of something that gets massive mainstream media so called mainstream media coverage, national 402 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:23,480 media coverage. It's always fascinating because you sort of see how the sausage is 403 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:29,079 made when you're witnessing something up close, and then you see it refracted or 404 00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:33,400 reflected in the national media coverage. And Jonas, you've been on the ground 405 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,079 covering this, very busy covering this for a long time now. So what 406 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,599 is your assessment of how the national media has represented what's actually happening on campus. 407 00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:51,440 I actually don't think the national media has been too far off from representing 408 00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:53,960 what has happened. I do think there have been a couple instances where it's 409 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,160 been a little bit sensationalist. I know Fox News in particular, is very 410 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,519 fond of We play the clip where they like lit up flares outside campus gates, 411 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,000 you know, where they're like, they put the words mostly peaceful protests 412 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,920 in quotes, and then they play the video of the flares, which is 413 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,400 not at all representative of what we're seeing. I do think they are mostly 414 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,680 peaceful. There's a couple of instances where you're like, is that really peaceful. 415 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,480 There's been a couple of confrontations as well, so it does give it 416 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,519 a little bit sensationalist. And the fact that protests are the fact that the 417 00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:32,240 media is not allowed into campus at all times, it's probably played their role 418 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:37,640 in that. But I do think the media is right when they talk about 419 00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:42,839 anti Semitism, because that I think is one of the big stories here. 420 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,359 Now. The protesters, they'll tell you, why isn't the media talking about 421 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,480 is notmophobia? Why isn't it talking about hate towards you know, our people 422 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,720 and the real police crackdown, The police cracked down and all of that. 423 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,559 Or and then the one, the one they always go back to is the 424 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,680 chemical weapon attack in Did they call it a chemical weapon of teculate? Yeah, 425 00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:06,160 Jonas, we haven't covered that on the podcast yet, so maybe just 426 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,680 take a moment to explain it. Yeah, Yeah, this is just this 427 00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:15,640 is just a great story and I think representative of insanity that has overtaken Columbia. 428 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:22,000 In January, students were Justicie and Palestine organized paid protest. It was 429 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,920 a run of the mill protest and what happened after was that a lot of 430 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,640 people that they started smelling at this protest, this like really bad smell, 431 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:36,359 and a lot of them reported having to go to the hospital, urgent care 432 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,680 whatever to get it treated. Their eyes were hurting or something, and so 433 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,640 they were like, this must have been like a chemical woman attack because we 434 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:46,039 saw, you know, two people. They were wearing kefias, but they 435 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:49,400 looked like they didn't know what they were doing. They looked like they didn't 436 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,200 know anyone there, and we believe they're infiltrators. And then they later identified 437 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,240 them as like former IDF soldiers who are students or something. And there is 438 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:00,319 several videos where you could kind of make out that they were holding something in 439 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:04,759 their hands, potentially like a spray bottle, and they're like, that must 440 00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:07,920 be skunk, the weapon used by the IDF against Palestinians in the West Bank 441 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,719 to disperse protests and things like that, which is a wild claim because I 442 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,679 don't know how students at Colombia would have gotten their hands on that substance, 443 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,719 even if you're a veteran, let alone, like break like this. This 444 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,119 is a substance that they spray from like massive trucks in the West Bank. 445 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,880 This is not like something you like hold on a small bottle in your hands. 446 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,079 But anyways, that was a whole thing that was the basis of many 447 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:36,679 claims of you know, anti Arab hate, islamophobia. And what happened, 448 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,079 you know, a couple of weeks ago, is the students who were disciplined 449 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,239 for allegedly spraying them sued Columbia and they were like, well, you disciplined 450 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,760 us, you know, wrongly, and you didn't hold due process because actually 451 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,800 what happened was we bought we bought fart spray from Amazon and started spraying it 452 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:59,119 as students and you know the name it was, it was I think one 453 00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:01,320 of them was called like forgive me, but like liquid ass. I think, 454 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,360 yeah, liquid You know, Columbia is fully within their rights to suspend 455 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,000 you if you spray liquid ass on your classmates, but it's it's not a 456 00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:15,679 chemical weapon. Maybe you get sense, maybe you get to see urging care 457 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:22,920 if you're particularly sensitive, but that's essentially that story. And you know, 458 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,480 I do think that was you know, an unjustified that's not protected speech. 459 00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:30,480 Of course he claimed it was protected expression, which I think was ludicrous, 460 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,280 But that whole story is yeah, yeah, well I actually think this issue 461 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,239 was so challenging for national media because it's one of the few areas where elite 462 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,840 opinion is legitimately polarized. You know, you have Bill Ackman and people who 463 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,800 are super sympathetic to Bill Ackman sort of on his side of this question, 464 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,639 and then you have virulent you know, the Karen Ataia people at Washington Post 465 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,480 like her, who are who are actually very very anti Israel, and so 466 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:04,920 the way they handle these stories is always fascinating to me. I don't know 467 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,840 if you've sort of noticed any of that yourself, Jonas, but I actually 468 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,559 think that's a really it's very interesting to see the kind of struggle session inside 469 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:15,440 of some of these media outlets as they try to deal with the issue. 470 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:22,239 Yeah, it is a certainly interesting thing to see just the two sides. 471 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,599 Just it almost feels like they're not in the same reality at times, because 472 00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:30,960 on one hand, we have the people that support Israel saying, look, 473 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,320 there's so much antisemitism going on on campus. What has happened with our elite 474 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,559 colleges. And on the other hand, we have you know, Ilhan Omar 475 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,519 and you know that whole crew being like chemical weapon attack, anti Arab hay, 476 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,559 you know, crackdown on free speech for pro Palestinian speech. And you 477 00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:53,920 know, from my perspective personally, I just don't think that the anti Arab 478 00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:00,159 the zomophobia is anywhere near the level of anti Semitism that we've seen on campus. 479 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,199 I just don't think that they're comparable, just given what I know as 480 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,000 a journalist, but also that you know, what has happened is that these 481 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:15,920 protests, these pro Palestinian protests have really just been very very intense, and 482 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,199 they've really really tried to push the bounds of university rules, especially with the 483 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:27,519 encampment now, but also before they were blatantly violating the university's rules on you 484 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:31,159 know conduct and you know, the time and manner of protest. These are 485 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:37,079 you know, viewpoint neutral restrictions the university has put out. And the whole 486 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:43,039 reason that the university suspended Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace 487 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,400 in the first place was because they refused to you know, uphold those rules. 488 00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:51,280 And so you know, they've taken violations of their rules and interpret them 489 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,599 as this is like a Islamophobian, this is a crackdown on free speech. 490 00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,440 That's just my personal perspective, but I do think that it's there's something there's 491 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:06,639 something going on where the people in the elite media and the people that are 492 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:12,880 speaking out on this are just looking at completely different sets of facts. I 493 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:19,199 don't think necessarily that they're mutually exclusive. I think a lot of the things 494 00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:22,280 both sides are saying can be true. But I just think that they should 495 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,199 be more nuanced when it comes to They should recognize that, you know, 496 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,119 there's been a lot of hate on campus, and there's been a lot of 497 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,559 events that have taken it over which has resulted in just an untenable environment for 498 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:40,119 any institution of higher education. Yeah, that's a good point, Jonas, 499 00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:44,199 Now correct me if I'm wrong. I think you've actually been to Israel, 500 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,559 Right, that's correct. I visited Israel in twenty twenty two, about two 501 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:52,000 years ago, right, so fairly recently. And maybe you could talk a 502 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:58,679 little bit about how that experienced influences or has influenced the way that you've covered 503 00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:02,239 this topic, included a lot of people who are covering this haven't physically been 504 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,960 there, haven't physically seen the country, seen the land. I imagine that's 505 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:10,960 changed how you've looked at all of this, Jonas. I think it certainly 506 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:17,159 impacted how I view the situation, especially when it comes to protesters demands when 507 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,960 it comes to the conflict itself in the Middle East, rather than Colombia's own 508 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:29,119 actions. And so some instances that I think of are just Israeli society as 509 00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:32,840 a whole. It's a real country. It's a country that's been around for 510 00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:37,199 you know, decades and decades, and there are people who have built lives 511 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:43,280 there. There are people there who love the country and have families, and 512 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:49,519 you know, it is a real place. That people here oftentimes say that 513 00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,119 you can just disappear with the snap of a finger. It's not true. 514 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,480 It's you can't just erase Israel from the map and expect that to be a 515 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,519 starting point for policy discussion. And so I think that's the first thing that 516 00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:04,639 I think of a lot of time when they call for you know, one 517 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,599 state, or for an Arab state and things like that. On the other 518 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:12,039 hand, as an American, I was able to go into the villages in 519 00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:16,360 the West Bank, into I believe, Area A and see just what it 520 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:22,519 was like in those villages under Israeli occupation. And I think one thing that 521 00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:27,800 I do think of sometimes is that the settlements are, you know, a 522 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,480 real barrier to the peace process. I think the settlements have put up a 523 00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:39,400 lot of uncomfortable questions and discussions for Israelis when it comes to negotiating a Tuesday 524 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,760 solution. And one city that I think of is when I visited Hebron, 525 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:52,079 and in the center of Hebron, they have the market, and a lot 526 00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:57,159 of the markets have shuddered because of various conflicts and uprisings that have been around 527 00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:01,800 for recent years. But it's essentially they have the market on the ground level 528 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:08,000 and the apartments and the homes that are above the apartment have become part of 529 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:14,840 the settlement. It's one structure, but it's basically divided vertically, and so 530 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,840 when you're walking through the market, there is a barbed wire fence above you, 531 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,800 and so the Israelis live above and the Palestinians live below. And you 532 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,239 know, obviously a lot of these Raelies that move into these kinds of settlements 533 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:35,400 are more extremist, and so what they've done is sometimes they throw trash and 534 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,400 other things onto the fence, onto the palatinions below. There's even bottles of 535 00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:45,119 urine that I saw and took pictures of the concerns of the Palestinians who are 536 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,159 actually advocating for a two state solution, especially when it comes to the settlements, 537 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,440 they're very real. It very much is surreal to see a city divided 538 00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:57,760 like that. And you know, we walk into the settlement later as Americans, 539 00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:00,440 and you know, they let us in, but it's you know, 540 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,239 it's completely silence, it completely dead. You wouldn't know that there is a 541 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:08,320 whole Palestinian city underneath. And so I think about these things and the experiences 542 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:15,000 that I've seen on the ground. When I hear people trying to have discussion 543 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,400 about a potential peace process, you don't hear a lot of those discussions these 544 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,039 days. It's mainly just yelling and protesting. But when they do a lot 545 00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,400 of it is sort of absence the nu once on both sides that I think 546 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:34,719 we need really appreciate that perspective, Jonas, and I think it shows that, 547 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,440 you know, when people put the truth first, you can come to 548 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:45,000 these questions with all sorts of different ideas, beliefs and experiences and still just 549 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,159 you know, do great journalism. So I just appreciate you coming on the 550 00:42:49,159 --> 00:42:52,599 show, Jonas, and I hope you're saying safe and hope you're you know, 551 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:59,199 feeling like this is something that is going to be an experience that you 552 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:04,960 will carry with you in valuable ways for years to come as you move into 553 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,280 your journalism career. I'm sure you've had a lot of like just life lessons 554 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,880 in general over the course of the last couple of weeks. Absolutely, absolutely, 555 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,480 I don't think I'll ever forget the events of every single day that I've 556 00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:20,639 happened this past week. What a time it is to be a Columbia student, 557 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,840 seriously, And where can people read the Columbia Sundial, which they know 558 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,119 about how to get updates from you and from your paper. Absolutely, they 559 00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:37,440 can find the Columbia Sundial at sundial Dashcu dot org. That's sundial dashcu dot 560 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:44,280 org. And they can find my work on my x page which is at 561 00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,840 j O n As. Y do Jonas? Why do go ahead and give 562 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,519 Jonas a follow? And Jonas, actually, I know you're entering with the 563 00:43:51,559 --> 00:43:53,599 Free Press this summer. That reminds me to plug. We have Nelly Bowls 564 00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:58,159 coming up in a couple of weeks on this podcast, so stay tuned for 565 00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:00,239 that. And Jonas, I hope you have a great summer over there with 566 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:05,360 the free press. Keep up the good work. Really really appreciate it absolutely. 567 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,440 Thanks so much for having me, Emily. You've been listening to another 568 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:10,960 edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Deshenski, culture editor here at 569 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,800 the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers 570 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:23,719 of freedom. And then just for the hearn the fame, boice the reason, 571 00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:32,440 and then it faded away.