WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.880 Welcome to the Ayan Hirsi Ali Podcast, a home for critical thinking and common 2 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:18.719 sense. Today, Michael Shellenberger is joining me for the second time. He 3 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.839 was one of my favorite guests and I'm delighted to have him back on. 4 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:28.519 Michael is the founder and president of Environmental Progress. He has been working as 5 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:33.880 a climate activist for twenty years and as an environmentalist for thirty. He was 6 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:40.600 Time Magazine's Hero of the Environment in two thousand and eight. The last time 7 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:45.960 he joined me, we discussed his book Apocalypse Never. He now has a 8 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:51.000 new book arts titled San fran Sico, which looks at issues such as the 9 00:00:51.079 --> 00:01:19.560 prise of crime and homelessness in progressive own cities. 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From the Biden Administration to book reviews, from Councel 26 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:45.280 Culture to Cultural Cuisine, The Spectator will entertain you from cover to cover. 27 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.400 So sign up today to get three months of the Spectator for free plus free 28 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:57.960 Spectator hats. When you're subscribe at spectatorworld dot com Slash Special Offer again, 29 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:05.199 use offer code ian a y A A n A check out to redeem your 30 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:12.159 offer that spectator weel dot com slash special offer and offer called ian A y 31 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:54.840 A A N. Michael, thank you very much for joining me again. 32 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.759 UM. It's always a delight to talk to you, UM on this podcast. 33 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.360 I plan to talk to you about San Francico, your new book, 34 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:11.479 But then all sorts of things started to unfold, current events like the election 35 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.079 outcome in Virginia and the one I think it's still a tie in New Jersey, 36 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:21.879 New York and other places. And then there's also Glasgow and there's a 37 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:27.759 lot of stuff going on there. So bear with me. Let me just 38 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:34.800 ask you your opinion on the following. So we have a governor in New 39 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:41.879 Virginia who is a Democrat and who could have easily held on to his seat, 40 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.079 and in fact that was we thought that was the case for a long 41 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:53.959 time. He loses that election to a person I've actually never heard of before. 42 00:04:54.040 --> 00:05:00.959 And I don't think I followed local politics in Virginia before, but now 43 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:05.600 that I do. The people who elected this new governor and who set off 44 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:13.079 the old one did it for a number of reasons, but the most important 45 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:16.120 one that's highlighted today is education. What's your take on it. Yeah, 46 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.160 it's great to be back. I'm wonderful to be with you. And yeah, 47 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:24.839 it's my book, really, both books Apocalypse Never in San Franciico, 48 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.480 Why Progressives Ruined Cities, had a lot to say about what just happened this 49 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:31.759 upset in Virginia. Of course, it's a state that where the governor of 50 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.720 the democratic governor should have been elected. It's been trending democratic. I believe 51 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.920 Biden won with over ten percent points. Don't quote me, but he won 52 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.519 by a significant margin just a year ago. And the election ended up turning 53 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.959 on this issue of critical race theory, which, as you know, is 54 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:55.839 this idea that racism is the most important issue in American life, that people 55 00:05:55.879 --> 00:06:01.639 of different races have different are essentially different from one another. It contains a 56 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:06.000 story about victimology, which is that you know, all black people are victims 57 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:13.120 essentially, all white people are privileged essentially, and that to victims everything and 58 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:18.199 too oppressors you know nothing. It's very similar to what I'm arguing against in 59 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:23.360 San Francico, and you could see that in the elections. It played out 60 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.120 more in the realm of schooling, which is, you know where the Republican 61 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:30.600 candidates said we got to get this terrible racist ideology out of our schools. 62 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:35.439 And the response from the governor was twice bad. It was first, well, 63 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:38.439 it was three. He said, First, there isn't such thing as 64 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.360 critical race theories not being taught in the schools. That's just not true. 65 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:46.240 The second thing he said was parents shouldn't be involved in schooling or involved in 66 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:53.279 their children's classroom. So I think that I'm writing this piece called why Progressives 67 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:57.800 Ruined Democrats. It plays on the theme of San Francico, which is why 68 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.319 progressives ruined cities the big Basically my argument is that, you know, the 69 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:06.319 parts of the progressive agenda that are popular tend to have to do with class, 70 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.759 not race, and Republicans have done a really good job challenging Democrats on 71 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.680 class based concerns, you know, since the Trump Revolution of twenty sixteen, 72 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:21.480 but they've let racial this just sort of hyper racial moral panic, along with 73 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.839 victimology, really take over what it means to be a progressive, of what 74 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.120 it means to be a Democrat. And the implications of that, of course 75 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:33.040 are absolutely extraordinary because it means that we're in the midst of a major historical 76 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:40.040 political realignment. And here's the interesting thing. We live in a state California, 77 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.439 where I know a lot of Democrats, and they would agree with absolutely 78 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:51.480 everything you said. Just now. The Democrats that I see and socialize with, 79 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:58.480 who are my friends, they hate critical race theory. They think that 80 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.279 some of these issues that we have an actually class center and have nothing to 81 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:09.800 do with race. And yet those very same people continue to vote for the 82 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:16.040 people who are obsessed with race. Is being a member of a political party 83 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.040 or is being you know, attached to a political party. Is that like 84 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:22.120 a tribal feeling? Oh for sure. I mean I live, you know, 85 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.759 I live just up the road from you in Berkeley, California, so 86 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.480 I saw the same thing. You know, We're clearly in a really dynamic 87 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:35.559 moment, so things could still change very quickly. California obviously is one of 88 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.879 the most progressive states in the country, so in some ways I would expect 89 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.879 things to change here after they change everywhere else. You know, Virginia is 90 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.840 a pretty liberal state, but it's not as as liberal or left wing as 91 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.519 California is. You know. That being said, just in the last few 92 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:54.480 weeks, we've seen you know, my book came out three weeks ago. 93 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.440 It looks like in that just in that time, we see that the District 94 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.840 Attorney of San Francisco will likely be recalled, Several school board members will likely 95 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:07.240 be recalled, all from the radical left. If the DA goes and the 96 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.200 mayor probably appoints a moderate to be the DA. From the city council, 97 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:13.480 the person on the city Council as a moderate would be replaced by somebody else 98 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.320 is probably a moderate. You know, you look down the road and you 99 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:22.399 could see San Francisco returning to moderate hands and LA within one or two election 100 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:28.519 cycles. Similarly, you know, Democrats are I don't I mean, they're 101 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:33.679 going to take a huge loss in a year from now, almost certainly I 102 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:39.679 lose control of the Congress, probably lose the presidency in twenty twenty four, 103 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.879 and Democrats will have to respond. And you know, this is where I 104 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:48.440 sort of go with as piece, is that it doesn't look good for Democrats 105 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.080 according to their own numbers, if they continue to go down this hyperwoke path. 106 00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:01.600 There's a young, very young political consultant named David Shore for the Democrats 107 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.720 who argues, who's been arguing this for weeks, and it's been out there 108 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:09.159 obviously, really since last last year the elections, James Carville has been warning 109 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:15.440 Democrats that this focus on race and culture was really off putting. I tweeted 110 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:22.679 out last night Van Jones and other CNN correspondents basically just saying openly that Democrats 111 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:28.919 have become annoying, insulting, patronizing, shrill, just everything that we know 112 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:33.240 about how Democrats have become. So Democrats will either have to change or they'll 113 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.799 just continue to lose elections. It's just that simple. I just saw a 114 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:45.639 reaction from Joy Read to the Virginia election, and she just said the Republican 115 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:52.240 Party is dangerous and that kind of Patrick, and you know you use the 116 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:58.200 word shrill. It's absolutely right, you know you If I were a Democrat, 117 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.000 I would say today, you know, we're losing the independence, We're 118 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:09.759 losing Democrats who voted for us, and we're losing Republicans who moved away from 119 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:18.080 the Republican Party because of Trump. And instead of reflecting on why they lost 120 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.519 and getting to the bottom of it, they are. From the reactions that 121 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.399 I can see on a superficial level just coming through the media, they're doubling 122 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:31.720 down on it. I just listened to President Biden who came from Glasgow and 123 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:37.840 talked again about COVID, and I think talking about COVID and the pandemic, 124 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.159 that's a very very important issues, the issue of the day. But his 125 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.480 response to why so many elections who are lost and elections that shouldn't have been 126 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:58.320 closed are so are just what you described. It's the denial, it's staying 127 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:05.480 on the woke path invoking race every time. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, 128 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.360 I think it's a question. I mean, I think what's great about 129 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.919 politics is that it you can live in a delusional bubble for a while, 130 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.679 but the great thing is that you'll just lose elections and you'll lose power, 131 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:24.120 so and eventually, you know, these things have to correct themselves. I 132 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.720 do think, you know, it's interesting to me that the Democrats, basically 133 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.879 all the big what the Democrats have been focused on is all falling apart at 134 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.039 the exact same time. So, as you mentioned, it's not just that 135 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:43.879 the voters have repudiated this moral panic on race. Voters Americans are the most 136 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:50.039 part not racist. We're less racist than ever where. We get insulted when 137 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.679 people tell us that we're racist with good reason. So that's all kind of 138 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.679 falling apart. At the same time, the climate change stuff is just a 139 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.240 joke. I mean they you know, basically Biden and the weeks leading to 140 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.840 the Climate United Nations Climate talks in Scotland, they've been pleading with OPEC to 141 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.200 produce more oil, even at the same time that he has been along with 142 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:16.120 the broader Democratic coalition, attacking expanded oil and gas strolling in the United States. 143 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:18.879 You know, the United States over the last five years should have been 144 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.679 increasing its investment in oil and gas production. It did not out of a 145 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:28.799 reaction to progressive climate change demands. We should be just having much more. 146 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:31.519 In fact, the whole world would then have more oil and gas because it 147 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.440 is a global market. So you see that happening. Then they go to 148 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.600 Scotland and they say, oh, we're all going to do stuff. Well, 149 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.960 they couldn't even agree to stop financing coal plants, which should have been 150 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.759 easy, low hanging fruit for them. They couldn't even agree to do that. 151 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:48.679 But it doesn't even matter because the conference itself, it's voluntary. It's 152 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.519 just public relations. The first day Biden falls asleep, he gives this terrible 153 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.799 press conference that he's just barely coherent in and then meanwhile, today I just 154 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.240 tweet out this morning announces that it's going to spend half a trillion dollars building 155 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.960 more nuclear over the next fifteen years than the rest of the world built over 156 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.000 the last thirty five for reasons that have nothing to do with climate change, 157 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.159 because it knows it needs a lot of energy. And by the way, 158 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:20.279 neither you know, President she of China or President Putin of Russia bothered even 159 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:24.399 going to und climate talks. So it's just clear as day. It seems 160 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:31.720 to me that we're in the midst of an epical shift from a kind of 161 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.000 Postcold War era that lasted about thirty years to whatever. The post Postcold War 162 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.399 era is probably some new geopolitical rivalry with between the United States and China, 163 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.000 But clearly it's the end of the early it's the end of this really I 164 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.840 think bad. I think we're also in the you know, just about to 165 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.080 end a really bad and we're about to go into a big backlash against all 166 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.799 the woke, bad, woke racial stuff. At the same time. Yeah, 167 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:03.960 it's the fascinating thing is that's this woke nonsense. It just sabotages everything 168 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:09.399 you wouldn't You shouldn't expect to be talking about cracial justice and all that nonsense. 169 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.039 And I don't think that racial injustice is nonsense. I just think that 170 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.840 this inject increase into everything, which is what the work do, that's nonsense. 171 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:28.840 And even on a topic that should be in my view, free of 172 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:37.399 this stuff like climate, the environment, what a pandemic, it gets into 173 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.480 all of that. One thing you said earlier about the geopolitics, Number one 174 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.200 just twenty years ago was nine eleven, two thousand and one. And when 175 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.039 that event happened, there is attacked. The United States of America tried to 176 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:58.159 destroy everything that we believe in. One of the key responses was America should 177 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:04.159 never ever pen on oil from the Middle East again. And the private sex 178 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.720 that worked very hard to deliver on that and only just shut it down. 179 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.279 You say, you wrote that in your previous book, and you say that 180 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.919 we have the capability of developing nuclear energy and that can lead us to a 181 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:26.159 clean planet. China's doing it, and China, as you know, is 182 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:33.279 not our best friend. Why are we not doing it? It's the most 183 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:38.600 rational path to take. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's crazy, right, 184 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:42.320 and hopefully China's big push into nuclear, and of course Russia is a 185 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:45.879 major nuclear builder around the world, will force it. You know, we 186 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:48.840 had a big sea change in public opinion. You know, a lot of 187 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:53.159 the progressives, including the people who I argue with on other issues, have 188 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.600 become pro nuclear, but they haven't had the support in their own party for 189 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.480 it. But it's the same issues as we discussed last year. It's just 190 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:07.920 continuing fear of nuclear weapons. But it's also become a big scam. You 191 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.640 know, if you have nuclear, you don't need all this renewables, you 192 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:17.640 don't need all this junk. Basically, you don't need all this money spent 193 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.799 on special interests, on special causes. You just you know, with natural 194 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.319 natural gas and nuclear basically the only things that matter when it comes to reducing 195 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.200 carbon emissions. If you use nuclear natural gas, there is no climate problem. 196 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.640 So the key is to expand those two things. Well, that's that's 197 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.480 the opposite of what the climate activists want. They actively are a campaign against 198 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.720 it. They get financing from the big investor banks like black Rock, and 199 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.839 they're in bed with the Chinese solar panel manufacturers. I mean, I think 200 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.680 since you and I talked last year, we've seen a series of pretty big 201 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:55.640 events occur. We now know that China has subsidized that solar panels not just 202 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.960 directly with money, but also to the use of coerced weaker Muslim labor. 203 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.680 We know that the solar panels required the use of the dirtiest form of energy 204 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:10.519 in the form of coal, and that the unaccounted for cost of waste, 205 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:12.319 and this is according to a Harvard Business Review study that came out a few 206 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:18.799 months ago, should make electricity from solar four times more expensive once that waste 207 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.039 is properly accounted for. So the renewables, the expansion of renewables is also 208 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.000 coming to a halt, and it's in a point of crisis. And as 209 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:32.119 I pointed out, you know in a recent substack, the US and the 210 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:37.119 world really invested so much in unreliable, weather dependent renewables and not enough in 211 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.680 oil and gas development that the world is now having a massive energy crisis. 212 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.519 Petroleum prices are up sixty percent from where they were in just a year, 213 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.720 at their highest level in seven years. We're running we don't have enough gas, 214 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.880 and so countries including the United States, but also China and Europe are 215 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.519 all returning to coal because of the advocacy of climate groups. So I think 216 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.480 these you know, really progressive ideology is in crisis, and to some extent, 217 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.079 I just think the West is in crisis too. I think we can 218 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.240 pull out of it, but we've got to get beyond this basically woke religion, 219 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:17.240 which is complete with, you know, an apocalyptic view of climate change 220 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:25.079 and a religious essentialist and really pseudoscientific view of race. Yeah. So I 221 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:30.279 celebrated this outcome of the Virginia election and others because I hope that this means 222 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.839 we can get out of it. And when I say I celebrated it, 223 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:41.079 what I mean is the way parents in Virginia felt empowered enough to organize themselves 224 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.400 and bring an end to the narrative. The only question is do you really 225 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.920 think we can pull Before we pull out of it, how much damage can't 226 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:55.799 we expect? Well, it's been it's been pretty ugly so far, right, 227 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.599 I mean, we've seen in you know, I basically I wrote apocalyps 228 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:03.039 never versico go together in the sense that, on the one hand, they're 229 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.680 totally different. Apoc ups never argues that most environmental trends are going in the 230 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.359 right direction, most environmental trends are we want to do more of them, 231 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:17.559 more gas, more nuclear. Climate change is not the big threat that we 232 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:19.960 were worried about. I have a piece up today noting that really temperatures are 233 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.640 going to probably peak at two and a half degrees centigrade. Well, the 234 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:29.079 UN target had been two degrees for two decades until they recently changed it to 235 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.920 one and a half degrees. So we're actually on track not having very much 236 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.119 warming. And the big problem is we're in, at least in the United 237 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.039 States, but certainly in other countries, including Scotland. Interestingly enough, is 238 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.119 a drug addiction crisis. We had almost one hundred thousand people die of drug 239 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.400 deaths last year. That's an increase from just seventeen thousand and twenty years ago. 240 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:55.799 We have a whole generation that is just dying from totally poisonous, heavily 241 00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.640 intoxicating, addictive drugs. And that's you know, of course, what's behind 242 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.039 or maybe not of course, but that is what's behind the so called homelessness 243 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:08.680 problem. So clearly we're we're having you know, we're a mass. I 244 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.559 mean, big things need to change, and they need to change quickly. 245 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:18.440 Yeah, when you were talking about climates. The phrase that just keeps rolling 246 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.079 in my head is that of the cost of living, And if you tie 247 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:30.839 that to the homelessness and poverty, I see precisely what you mean by how 248 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:38.200 these things are related. And and yeah, the outcomes. And I know 249 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:45.920 that when you describe the drug addiction and then behind it the drug tells the 250 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:51.240 fact that actually here in California, we know all this, or people we 251 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:56.200 we've put in power all this. But then they keep reverting back to this 252 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:03.920 racial injustice meme. And you have to wonder, then, with the cost 253 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.799 of living going up, gas price is going up, do you think we're 254 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:15.519 going to have more homelessness or less. Fortunately, we're going to have significantly 255 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.160 more until there's some political change. You know what I discover in San Francicco 256 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.160 is, on the one hand, there's a lot of different causes of what 257 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:29.079 we call homelessness. The word homeless itself is a propaganda word designed to trick 258 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:33.200 our brains into thinking this is just a problem of housing, or that the 259 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:38.200 people that are living in tents on the street or underneath highway underpasses, that 260 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:42.359 there's somehow just poor people. That's absurd. I mean, I think everybody 261 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.240 knows where these are people who almost all of them, at least if they're 262 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:52.079 living unsheltered, are suffering very serious levels of drug addiction and or some other 263 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.680 mental illness. You know, the solution is very simple. You have to 264 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.240 shelter everybody, require people to stay in the alters. You can't let people 265 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.880 sleep on the streets, you can't let people use drugs and defecate in public. 266 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:10.079 These are not compatible behaviors with civilization. So then the question for me, 267 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.079 for Sarencico was just why don't we do that? Yeah, And the 268 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.359 bottom line is victim idiology. It's this idea that you can divide people in 269 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:23.720 the world into the category of victims or oppressors. That victims, the state 270 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:29.559 of being a victim is permanent. It's not like in the traditional heroic journey 271 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.240 where you're victimized on the way to becoming a hero, such as every Hollywood 272 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:37.519 movie. But also just in those stories we tell about our own lives, 273 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.960 you know, when we all suffer, and so the stories that we tell 274 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.680 ourselves is yeah, I got through that hard part and it made me a 275 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.720 better person. Well that's not what victim idiology says. Victim Idiology says, 276 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.640 by nature of being black, or mentally ill, or a woman or an 277 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:57.519 addict, you are a victim. And to victims we give everything and demand 278 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:02.720 nothing in return. That's what TOM ideology requires. So even if you would 279 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:04.759 agree that some people are victims are on the street, the idea that you 280 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.759 just give them cash and a tent and some fresh needles to shoot or smoke 281 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:14.759 drugs with is bonkers. But that's the basic idea. Yeah, I'd say 282 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:18.880 the third part of it is just that we then elevate we I should say 283 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:25.160 they progressives elevate victims into sort of spiritual beings. Yeah. So it is 284 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.480 a kind of victim worship, but it is a kind of worship that maintains 285 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:36.480 their victims status through the policies that we enact relating to them. It's also 286 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:45.000 a desire to acquire power, So people use this narrative to get to powerful 287 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:52.480 positions. But then when they're in those powerful positions, they just make those 288 00:24:52.519 --> 00:25:00.680 problems like well so homelessness or you know, the mental health issues, addictions, 289 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:10.160 these things get worse and worse with the people who are committed to getting 290 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:15.240 to power through the development of this victim you call it eptimology, and that 291 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.200 doesn't bode well for the country. Because the other thing that I find disturbing 292 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:32.839 is in San Francisco and in I WoT say even probably La it's homelessness, 293 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.559 mental health. These are things that we talk about all the time, and 294 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.880 yet these are also problems that I think you lay it out beautifully in your 295 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.039 book that we know I don't want to say one hundred percent solutions, but 296 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.799 we know that there are policies that actually help, and yet those policies are 297 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.920 not carried out. And if you could please talk a little bit about your 298 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.920 visits to the Netherlands and what you say so as an option, as an 299 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.680 alternative, and how much that costs. Sure, well, let me just 300 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.440 say first what we should do, because it's just clarifying I think, to 301 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:12.799 sort of a contrast what we know works and what we should do with what 302 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:18.240 with what we're doing in San Francisco. And this is based on you know, 303 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.119 my field work in Amsterdam and the Netherlands, but also interviews with the 304 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:27.240 head of the drug program in Portugal. We looked at basically every civilized nation, 305 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:32.440 every civilized city and state, and looked at how they dealt with it. 306 00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.480 It's the same thing for everybody. It's basically you have to require you 307 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:40.119 have to have enough shelters for people that need them. They have to stay 308 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.039 in them. It's not you can't. The alternative is not to camp in 309 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.440 the streets or the sidewalks. That's just not allowed. People that are suffering 310 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.839 from severe mental illness or drug addiction are offered treatment, and if they're arrested 311 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:59.839 breaking laws, then they have the option of getting clean through rehab or going 312 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.240 to jail. It's not optional. And then I think the final part of 313 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.960 it, and certainly we need, is some sort of universal psychiatric care. 314 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.240 So in the Netherlands they actually have a private insurer model like we have. 315 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.359 It's not a single payer system like the French or the Canadians have, but 316 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.000 it is universal, it does cover everybody, and that's a similar component of 317 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.200 what we need. But what I loved about the Netherlands, and the part 318 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.400 of the reason I chose it as the model for California is, you know, 319 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:33.880 we Californians are snobs and and San Franciscans are more snobby than anybody. 320 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:38.000 So I wanted to choose a city that I think is a world class city. 321 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:44.319 Anybody that's ever been to Amsterdam knows it's a world class city. It's 322 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.960 it's not it's about the same site. It's actually bigger than San Francisco. 323 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.240 Obviously, California is, you know, bigger, it's huge. California is 324 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:57.200 the bigger economy than Britain's economy. But I wanted to give the example because 325 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.799 I did feel like, you know, you could explain to Californians, who 326 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.119 are very liberal on many things. You know that, look, you can 327 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:11.720 smoke marijuana in Amsterdam. You can hire a sex worker. It's a regulated 328 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:17.920 industry. It's that you know, there's you can bike everywhere. We love 329 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.039 biking in the Bay Area, and so I wanted to give that as the 330 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.079 model rather than than New York or Miami or San Antonio. That I have 331 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.720 all done good things, but who if you kind of talk about them, 332 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.640 I thought Californian San Franciscans would sort of turn their noses up. But that's 333 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:37.279 basically it. I mean, it's slightly different than Portugal, slightly different in 334 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.720 Japan, but that's the basic recipe. And Michael, it's also so that 335 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.799 Amsterdam is a progressive run city. The mayor is of the Green Party from 336 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:52.799 Kaholsama and has been as long as I remember. Amsterdam was from by the 337 00:28:52.799 --> 00:29:00.680 Special Democratic Party, So progressives there somehow see things differently. Yeah, similarly 338 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:07.440 to the United States. Interestingly in California. The Netherlands is more conservative than 339 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:10.640 Amsterdam. Like around the world, people that live in cities are just more 340 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:15.519 liberal, that's right, more decadent, there's not that more. You know, 341 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:21.200 conservatives tend to be more rule and so the but the the country of 342 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:23.759 the Netherlands, so the country of the Nolans, is more a center right 343 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.400 than the city of amshamp which is more left wing. And I think that 344 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:32.440 helped a lot to get the changes they needed, just like I think it 345 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:34.880 would help here. And in fact, we even see a similar dynamic in 346 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:41.519 Texas, where the state of Texas is obviously more conservative than the city of 347 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.839 Austin, which is the capital, but it's a very culturally progressive city. 348 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:52.559 And basically the state itself has had to take action to force Austin to deal 349 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.960 with its open drug scenes. Yeah, because it had done basically what San 350 00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.480 Francisco had done, which was just to basically say, oh, anybody can 351 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.839 camp any where because they're victims and they've been able to shut that down. 352 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.599 So I mean that's what basically, just to you know, fast forward to 353 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.759 the end of the end of the book of San Francisco, I basically argue 354 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.240 it's going to be much more it's going to be much more likely that California 355 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:19.759 becomes a more moderate state and takes action than it is that San Francisco does. 356 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.000 And in fact, I don't think it's a problem that can be solved 357 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.960 at this city level, in part because addicts are street addicts are such a 358 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:33.440 transient population. Yeah, and they're taking off. The question that keeps propping 359 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.799 up is the cost. How much does it cost to get everyone off the 360 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:42.960 streets, provide them with the mental healthcare they need, provide them with shelters, 361 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:52.079 provide them with an alternative to camping under of a passes and other places 362 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.480 that are not fit for human life. That's a great question. I mean, 363 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:02.160 it's funny I could I after two years of research, I still could 364 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:08.079 not get a clear number of how much we spend on this problem, and 365 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:14.440 neither can members of the state legislature. And part of the problem is, 366 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:18.359 you know, for example, how much of the fire department do we spend 367 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.279 on homelessness. It's very hard to figure out exactly, but we know that 368 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:26.039 about half of the fires that they put out in Oakland and Los Angeles now 369 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.359 are homeless fires, which is really wild when you consider that while there are 370 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:36.400 a lot of homeless, there's there's not half of the people, right, 371 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.799 So you're talking about a huge part of our public services are going to homelessness. 372 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.559 We know that we spend more money per capitating California on mental health in 373 00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:48.359 any other state, and we obviously have the worst outcomes, So money, 374 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.720 if anything, has made the problem worse. In fact, I do argue 375 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:56.960 that it's a consequence of our prosperity that we've done. We've been so decadent 376 00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:02.559 and so liberal in our policies. You know, what I would say is 377 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.400 part of you know, the cost depends on what you're doing. So if 378 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:13.480 you if you basically are just having paying social workers to maintain the lifestyles of 379 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.000 drug addicts who don't work and just basically sit in tents all day and do 380 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:21.359 drugs, it can be very expensive. You know, at this point, 381 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.480 it's about one hundred thousand dollars per homeless person in San Francisco. San Franco 382 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:28.960 Cisco. Wow, having a hard time saying the name of the city. 383 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:34.119 I could calling it San Francco. It's very expensive. On the other hand, 384 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.519 you know, and there's some people who are more expensive than others. 385 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.240 I mean, people with schizophrenia are very difficult. People with schizophrenia with drug 386 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:45.839 addictions extremely difficult. But my aunt at schizophrenia, she did well. She 387 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.279 lived in a group home in Denver. She never worked, you know, 388 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.720 she lived in a house with like six other people. That's a good outcome 389 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.400 for people with schizophrenia. She did well. There's other people like the twenty 390 00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:59.920 five year old kid, you know, kid, young man that got a 391 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:05.519 that gets addicted to heroin and just as living in an attent in San Francisco. 392 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:09.279 That guy, he's, first of all, he's probably breaking many laws 393 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:15.519 every day, including shoplifting to sustain his habits, but certainly camping publicly, 394 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.559 defecating in public, using drugs publicly. If he were arrested for for breaking 395 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:24.039 the law, brought in front of a judge and the judge mandated rehab and 396 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:28.240 said, look, you got to get rehab. And you know it's the 397 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:35.319 rehab that's you really wanted to be. Something like ninety days, probably impatient, 398 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.240 and probably not in San Francisco, so it'd be more like, you 399 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:44.359 know, under our fantasy California, the guy would be like, Okay, 400 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.799 I'll take the rehab instead of prison. I'm tired of being a junkie. 401 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:51.839 You know. Maybe there's a place for him in the countryside somewhere or some 402 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.359 suburb. He gets his life together, he gets reconnected with his family, 403 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.519 you have a single social worker as opposed to the current mess of system we 404 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:05.640 have. Now, there's no reason that within ninety days or six months he 405 00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:09.280 could be independent. It's not going to be easy for him. He's probably 406 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.880 going to relapse. There's some amount of kind of a sort of case management 407 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:19.320 for him. But if you don't have the stick of prison or jail time 408 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.480 as the as the consequence of him continuing to break the law, then he's 409 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:28.800 very expensive. If you do have it, it's a lot cheaper. So 410 00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:31.079 that's not I know, sometimes maybe a totally satisfying answer, but it tells 411 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:37.360 you, I think what the cost dynamics are specifically, Yeah, and I 412 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:43.480 think if you add to that the cost of the crime and not the you 413 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:49.159 know, you've you've you've discussed that the crimes committed by people who are addicts 414 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:54.039 and with mental health issues. But the drug hotels, these young men from 415 00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:01.440 mainly from Latin America, who are organized and who sell the drugs and who 416 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:07.159 want this thing to go on because for them it's a direct profit. That 417 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:13.119 cost is also almost never spoken of, absolutely the societal costs. And how 418 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:17.920 do you how do you put a number on the loss of ten or twelve 419 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.519 drug stores in a year in the last year, or two drug stores that 420 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:28.280 no longer are available for the community to use, which is what's going on 421 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.639 because the you know, I don't know, your listeners may not realize, 422 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:36.559 and it's one of things that describe We pass legislation in twenty fourteen in the 423 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:44.760 same ballot initiative that basically reduces the consequences from a felony to a misdemeanor of 424 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:50.440 theft of nine hundred fifty dollars worth of goods and three grams of hard drugs. 425 00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:52.079 So, I mean, it's when you look back on it, you 426 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:54.199 kind of go, oh, my gosh, why did we ever think that 427 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:58.960 was a good idea? Yeah, Basically it allows addicts to go into drug 428 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.320 stores steal nine dollars with items, sell them at a fraction of their cost 429 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.119 to build to buy enough drugs for a couple of days. And then the 430 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:09.599 drug stores they've been you know, because of the threat of violence, they 431 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:15.119 order the security guards to let it occur. And then after a certain amount 432 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.079 of time, the drug stores they just can't afford to keep the drug stores 433 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.480 open, so Walgreen safe way. We see them cutting back hours or just 434 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:27.280 shutting stores entirely, shutting stores in a city that is one of the richest 435 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:34.480 cities in the country and could easily sustain those stores. Yeah, it's all 436 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.719 boils down to what you said, this victimology and narrative. You know, 437 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:44.519 if you're a criminal, then it must be because of racism. If public 438 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:49.199 schools are not providing that service, does they should, then the standards of 439 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:55.480 education all allow it, and all this nonsense about race is introduced into them. 440 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:02.719 If if we have of one or two problems, very minor problems with 441 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.639 our police force, we go out and say defund the whole thing. I 442 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:14.840 mean, it all fits into that. I don't know, collective madness. 443 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:22.719 We've been talking about the mental health of individuals, but I fear for the 444 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:29.079 mental health of the decision makers as a group, the elite, and the 445 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:35.599 fact that they just kept making these terrible choices. Absolutely, the title san 446 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:39.239 Francico refers to the San francickness, you know, not just of the drug 447 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:45.400 addicts and mentally ill on the street, but also the San francickness of really 448 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:50.400 all of us, of the society of progressives, of people in California and 449 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:54.119 these liberal cities. And that really is a kind of compassion sickness. It's 450 00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:01.239 a kind of Yeah, what I ultimately conclude is a pathological all truism or 451 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:07.119 what Jordan Peterson famously calls the devouring mother. Really, it's the overprotective it's 452 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:15.360 the overprotective parenting, it's the coddling culture, it's the victimology. It's it's 453 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:16.719 not just you know, and I at the end of the book, I 454 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:22.400 sort of wrestle with this idea from the great psychologist Jonathan Height, who sort 455 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.320 of says, he says, look, what progressives are doing is they're taking 456 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:30.559 one value among kind of six core values that are core values to most religions, 457 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:35.320 and they're taking one of them, which is care, and they're elevating 458 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:39.599 it above all the other values. I partly agree, but then I go 459 00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.039 a bit. I think I go a bit further, and I argue that 460 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:47.119 really what progressive ideology, which you know, I think is rebranded already, 461 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.639 really is radical left ideology from you know, from Rousseau to Marx to Fucaut. 462 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:57.760 What it's done is it's basically said, you know that that each of 463 00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:02.679 these traditional values, which include the like sanctity, respect for authority, loyalty, 464 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:07.679 it's redefined each of those values around the victim. So we should have 465 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:14.199 we should have our the authority should be to the victims as opposed to you 466 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.880 know, to the government or to God, or to the nation or to 467 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:22.920 the parents. The loyalty similarly, and sanctity. You know, the traditional 468 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:27.800 view, traditional religious views of the body is the body is pure and you 469 00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:30.679 have to be careful what you put into it. And drugs are a problem, 470 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:34.559 not just because of their effect, but because there's a kind of defilement 471 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.519 of the body, of the sacred space of the body. Well, progressives 472 00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:45.079 take that in a different direction. They would say the body, the body 473 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:49.599 of the victim is also pure, but it's not defiled by drugs. That's 474 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:53.119 okay, because they're just self medicating. Really, what you have to prevent 475 00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:00.159 against is the is the intrusion upon these pure bodies with the police, you 476 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:04.719 know, with the critical with the criminal justice system and so part. And 477 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.519 I guess I didn't say it before, although maybe it was implied. Progressives 478 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:14.199 are solely focused, strictly focused, or at least very disproportionally focused on victims 479 00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.880 of the so called system. Then they are on victims of other people. 480 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:21.639 And that's why, you know, because one thing you got, you would 481 00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:24.039 ask I did, was if you're so concerned with victims, why are you 482 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:30.079 not concerned with the thirty times more African Americans killed every year by other civilians 483 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.559 rather than the one thirtieth killed by the police. And the answer is that 484 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:40.360 progressives, really from a straight line from Rousseau through Marx to Fuco, are 485 00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:46.119 just obsessed with victims of the system and not concerned about victims of other individuals. 486 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:52.360 And I think essentially that really is the true racism, because if you're 487 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:59.440 black and you find yourself in difficulties, the assumption is there's absolutely nothing you 488 00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:06.400 can do to lift yourself out of those difficulties of adversity because the system, 489 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:15.760 as you describe it, you know, manipulated by this oppressor abstracts white figure 490 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:23.280 that that holds the key to your destiny. And so whether you like, 491 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:29.719 you know, being described as a victim is also being put in a place 492 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:34.559 where you're a slave again. You can't you can't help it, you can't 493 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:39.920 come out of addiction, you can't get up in the morning, and you 494 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:47.000 know, put the effort that's needed to work hard to re establish your life, 495 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:51.800 to reorganize it, because it's not in your hands. Yeah, you 496 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:53.760 got it. I think last year you and I may have talked about how 497 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.119 we have a mutual friend in Pascal Bruckner, the French, yes, French 498 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.880 writer author, and he wrote this brilliant book called Tears of the White Man, 499 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:12.000 which really anticipated wokeism very very well, but in a more European context, 500 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.760 which he noted that you know, at a moment where African nations are 501 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:20.639 really at a point where they can pursue their own destiny. They're not subjects 502 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.519 of European power. They're after, you know, post colonialism. Well, 503 00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:28.760 it's at that moment that suddenly you hear from Europeans how really the fate of 504 00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:35.079 Africa's up to Europe, or that the reason that Africa is failing in some 505 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.800 ways African nations might still be failing is because of Europe that really, you 506 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:43.360 know that this discourse finds a way to put you know, white people at 507 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.039 the center of everything. So you know, if you anytime, you know, 508 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:51.360 so when you you know, the classic when you talk about, you 509 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.559 know, challenges facing African Americans among progressives, well it always has to do 510 00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:59.760 you know, the answers always has to do with racism from white people. 511 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:02.559 You're right, it's sort of it's I mean, if you just kind of 512 00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:08.039 listened to it, it's really gross. You know, this idea that that 513 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:14.800 all black people are victims and all white people are privileged. Well it's actually 514 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.599 it's just yeah, pressors. It's just a reassertion of the thing that we 515 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.920 were trying to get away from and really did but supposedly in a in a 516 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:30.039 way that reverses the hierarchy, but it doesn't. It actually reinforces it. 517 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:35.920 So yeah, I totally agree. It's a kind of narcissism. It's a 518 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:43.280 power move. It's looking to reinforce this older racial hierarchies, supposedly in the 519 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.320 name of reversing it, but really reinforces it. You know, one of 520 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:52.280 the things I became obsessed with this, you know, with this great self 521 00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:57.920 help psychologist named Victor Frankel, who's really a stoic philosopher, and the idea 522 00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.320 that you know, he's famous because he survived the concentry Asian camps by changing 523 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:07.360 his mentality and having you know, having goals including reuniting with his wife and 524 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.000 family and writing a book. And so I kind of asked this question. 525 00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:15.599 It's like, how did we how did liberals go from having this view that 526 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.239 you know, we need to empower people, you know, we need to 527 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.239 we need people need to have the right mentality to basically to basically claiming that 528 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:27.760 anybody who says that is blaming the victim, you know, And why did 529 00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.840 that come to take over in the nineteen sixties. Yeah, I read Victor 530 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:37.320 Frankel's book. That was an impressive, impressive life. I have in my 531 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:44.559 background politics, and so what every time I think about societies like the one 532 00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:49.679 I came from, you know, Somalia, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, these 533 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:54.119 countries that we call developing countries or authoritarian countries, and I compare them to 534 00:44:54.199 --> 00:45:00.920 America and other great European societies, and I think if only we could in 535 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:07.320 Africa and in developing world, if only we could find a way of resolving 536 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:14.559 conflicting peacefully, then we can become like those rich countries. And that the 537 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:20.320 secret to success if we stay with America is that that has been discovered, 538 00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:29.039 that has been found, it's been applied. We have a government and power 539 00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:36.840 is checked and it's you know, it's it's it's spread. We recognize in 540 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:45.159 America the why it's bad for power to be concentrated in the hands of a 541 00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:50.679 few. And if you look at what we call now blue states and red 542 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:53.880 states and that sort of thing, one of the things that I find striking 543 00:45:54.840 --> 00:46:01.679 is that actually the country is divided now into if you're a Republican or if 544 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:07.480 you're a Conservative, you moved to a state run by Republicans, and if 545 00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:10.679 you're a Democrat, you moved to a blue state. But what that then 546 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:20.400 means is it entrenches this notion of concentrated power. If there was some competition 547 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:25.639 in California, say from the Republican Party, things would be different. I 548 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:32.400 think the politicians would have to be forced to mend their ways. I see 549 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:37.159 a little bit of hope now with the Republican Party and some of the changes 550 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:44.199 that are taking place there, the shedding of Donald Trump, young King, 551 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:50.199 this guy who took Virginia. He comes across as really decent, insane. 552 00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:58.599 The Republican Party is investing more time and efforts in recruiting people from immigrant communities, 553 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:01.719 black communities, women, and so on. And so you can see 554 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:09.199 with every election loss, when the Republican Party does an autopsy, then a 555 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:14.480 to do list comes out of it that they try and follow. I wonder 556 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:19.760 why the Democrats are not doing that. Well, we give it a minute, 557 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.159 we may see it happen. Okay, you're right. I mean, 558 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:27.679 I think we're in the midst of a very interesting political realignment. You know. 559 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.000 I think one of the big wild cards for Republicans is just yeah, 560 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:35.519 is you know, if Trump runs again, and everybody seems to think he 561 00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:40.320 will, that will that means that will basically close the door to bringing over 562 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:45.559 I think some moderate Democrats, you know, but if it's somebody more, 563 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.719 you know, like young Ken, who clearly had appeal among Democrats who voted 564 00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:53.400 for Biden, then we're talking about something completely different there. And especially if 565 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.159 you you know, I mean I mentioned David Shore, the young poster. 566 00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:00.719 If on the Democrat side, you know, he and others have pointed to 567 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:05.639 the fact that you know, you know, Trump increased his support from Latinos, 568 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.760 which is massive, you know, really on class appeals, you know, 569 00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:15.119 appealing to to you know, lower wage Latinos. So if Republicans can 570 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:21.880 can become a party truly of the working class without without the personality of Trump, 571 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:25.320 I think that opens up a lot of possibilities for it to really be 572 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:30.480 a majority party rather than a minority party. Similarly, though, you know, 573 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:37.920 it's not impossible to imagine some Democrats emerging that take that more moderate approach, 574 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:42.400 although I agree it's hard because the base of the Democratic Party at this 575 00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:45.199 point is just so woke and just you know, it's really fully in a 576 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:52.280 religious has a fully religious mentality, viewing climate change just totally apocalyptic, you 577 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.599 know, racism and having supernatural views. I mean, I keep asking, 578 00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:02.440 I've been asking I progressive friends why tomorrow I could declare myself a woman and 579 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:08.840 demand total um adherence to being called a woman by all of my friends. 580 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:15.039 But I but if I if I said I was black, I would be 581 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:21.920 demonized. And so I think that there's a lot more genetic and biological um, 582 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.360 I think there's a lot. I think there's I think that my genetics 583 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:28.519 of biology make me much more similar to a black man than to a white 584 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.159 woman. So explain that. Explain that to me. Why that is, 585 00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:38.159 Well, there is no rational explanation. It's simply that the trans community wants 586 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:43.760 to be larger than it is and therefore allows anybody who says that they're a 587 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:49.159 different sex to say that, and the African American community, through some peculiarities 588 00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:57.039 of history, have sought to, you know, basically not allow and really 589 00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:01.320 in some ways stigmatize h Arian Americans who are trying to pass themselves off as 590 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:06.719 white or or trying or trying to, um, you know, to be 591 00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:10.400 acting white or in other way. So that's just a kind of weird historical 592 00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:16.760 coincidence based on the on the completely arbitrary judgments of activists in both of those 593 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:21.840 communities. It doesn't have anything to do with kind of reality. So you're 594 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:27.360 clearly in a religious mentality, you know. I wrote San Franciico because I 595 00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:30.639 was like, it's so ridiculous, Like when I got to the bottom of 596 00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:31.639 it, I was like, really, is it really this dumb? And 597 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:36.599 it was like, yep, it's just that dumb, Like I can't you're 598 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:39.079 I was sort of hoping intellectually on both of these issues. You know how 599 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:45.239 dumb kind of woke religion is, but then also how straightforward it is to 600 00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:49.760 solve the open drug scene problem. And you know, ultimately at bottom, 601 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.360 I'm like, you don't require anything, any fancy intellectual analysis. It just 602 00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:58.159 it's just as dumb as it seems. Yeah, it's it's quite dumb. 603 00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:00.840 If we look for you know, across the Atlantic for some hope, what 604 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:07.039 you see is that Labor Party was ruined by these people with similar views. 605 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:14.960 And of course, yeah, and it's no longer Tony Blair's Labor Party that 606 00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:24.599 was vibrant and very strong and insane and rational, it's now become something else. 607 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:30.800 Altogether. This guy called Jeremy Corobbin destroyed it and took on this walk 608 00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:37.239 nonsense. And that group, that subset of far far left I call them 609 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:44.320 progressives, are still within that party. But if you read the discussion in 610 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:47.679 the newspapers, in the British newspapers, you know, all the rational commentators 611 00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:54.280 say it's a democracy can't survive with just one party. You're then going to 612 00:51:54.320 --> 00:52:00.440 get power concentrated in the hands of a few, and I don't think it's 613 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:06.559 good or healthy for a political party to have power so long and so are 614 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:10.280 there are no, I think, very healthy debates and discussions going on within 615 00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:15.760 the Labor Party how to fix this and how to get rid of these crazy, 616 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:21.639 fringe, extreme people who have hijacked the entire party. And I was 617 00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:27.039 hoping really that we could that we will see something like that with you know, 618 00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:31.920 one of our major parties, the Democratic Party, unless maybe what other 619 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:37.039 people are pointing to, which is I don't know, independent Party or something 620 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:42.440 like that, but there should be you know, a democracy can't really survive 621 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.599 on what with one party. Yeah, that's right. I mean, so 622 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.199 if if you sort of push forward on this, I mean you can sort 623 00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:51.639 of see different paths, I mean, one of them. Obviously, the 624 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:54.039 future of the Republican Party depends heavily on whether or not Trump gets the nomination. 625 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.559 If he doesn't, then I think that the party has a chance to 626 00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.480 become a majority party. And if that's the case, then it seems to 627 00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:08.199 me that we're looking at a very similar realignment of the kind that we saw 628 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:15.360 under Reagan. Though I think the differences is that it's not a neoliberal realignment 629 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:19.599 like Reagan ushered in. It's really more of a nationalist like more of an 630 00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:23.239 economic nationalist one that probably has an expanded role for the state. That is, 631 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:29.880 you know, Republicans no longer trying to privatize entitlements for example, and 632 00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:34.360 being um, you know, pretty accepting an open and open towards gays and 633 00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:37.519 lesbians. You know, I don't know what happens with abortion under either scenario. 634 00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:42.719 Democrats, Um, yeah, Like, I mean, I would say, 635 00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:45.760 if there's a third party that has any possibility, it would be in 636 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:50.719 California. We have an open primary system already, so you can have two 637 00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:57.440 Democrats or two Republicans in the runoff or independence. But I think that depends 638 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.440 on you know what again here too, it just depends on the addits that 639 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.480 you get to some extent. You know, what's interesting is if you did 640 00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:08.440 get a third party in California, whether it would be aligned with one of 641 00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:12.800 you know, with one of the parties outside of California, whether it would 642 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.320 take it over a lot of big questions to ask. I mean, it 643 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:22.960 seems like, you know, certainly in California, there's a lot of unhappiness 644 00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:27.440 somebody's got to emerge, you know, to challenge Gavin Newsom, somebody more 645 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.960 moderate on the one on the one hand, on the other hand, the 646 00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:35.480 Republican Party's basically dead. It's very hard to raise the kind of money you 647 00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:39.679 need to raise to compete with Gavin Newsom. You know, more more more 648 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:45.760 likely would be though, that moderate Democrats take power, take back power in 649 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:50.360 Los Angeles and San Francisco, and Gavin ends up governing more as a moderate 650 00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:55.719 if he's reelected. Yeah, well, I hope that that is a scenario 651 00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:01.920 where he can be successful challenged, because again, it's really only through the 652 00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:07.119 ballot box that we will be able to see a peaceful transition to a more 653 00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:10.880 normal life. And I think Virginia has shown that. I think what we 654 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.599 also see in Virginia is I was cheering on this woman Winsome Seers last night. 655 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.880 That's a black woman, I think, originally from Jamaica. She was 656 00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:27.880 elected to the position of lieutenant general. And she stood there saying, please 657 00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:32.039 don't it's not about my skin, and this country has given me all these 658 00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:37.800 wonderful things. And she said, what did she see, like a little 659 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:45.400 bit away from from becoming the governor and I think that if you have more 660 00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:50.079 and more individuals like that instead of a Trump, but more and more people 661 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:58.000 with that kind of background, Latino's other immigrants taking prominent positions in the Republican 662 00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:01.519 Party, they do have a chance of winning. Chance. And then I 663 00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:07.480 agree, Yeah, that also takes that the race arguments in that Prase narrative 664 00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:15.199 out, you know, just tol us to that. Yeah, I agree 665 00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:20.519 with you. I mean, I think there's there's real potential there. You 666 00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:22.880 know, it's interesting. I mean, I I'm struck by how quickly and 667 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:29.400 how responsive our political system is. I mean, you know, there's there's 668 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:30.360 some people that still kind of say, oh, the elite try to touch. 669 00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:34.079 I think that's true, but when they suffer a defeat like this, 670 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:37.960 I just kind of go, you know, I don't know. I mean, 671 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:40.599 Democrats can just keep losing, But if the Democrats were to keep losing 672 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:45.239 so badly, then yeah, you would have some sort of new party, 673 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:49.440 you know, challenge them. You know. I think the other thing that 674 00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:53.760 we all worry about, right is that that basically we just become more segregated 675 00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:59.719 so that states like California become one party states, you know, other states, 676 00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:04.280 because you know, Republican one party states. I think what's exciting about 677 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:08.599 Virginia is it shows that you can get a candidate who was you know, 678 00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:12.800 not expected. You know, it's really the underdog, can't it not expected 679 00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:17.360 to make um any headway, who can come and win in part because he's 680 00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:23.199 not he doesn't have the abrasive qualities of a Trump, who, you know, 681 00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:25.599 I think in the past would have had a more neoliberal orientation. I 682 00:57:25.639 --> 00:57:30.400 think he comes out of the finance sector, but is you know, was 683 00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:34.039 able to strike a more populous chord. So so yeah, clearly we're seeing 684 00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:37.519 some innovation there. I think that, you know, somebody there's going to 685 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:43.719 need to be a proper reckoning on the Democratic side with what the agenda is, 686 00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:45.599 you know, in California, like I mean, I kind of look 687 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:53.320 at what their Democrats are proposing nationally, you know, childcare credits you know 688 00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:58.760 as the big one, some subsidies for renewables, and I'm like, that 689 00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:00.480 doesn't address any of the big issues. In California, we were in the 690 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.079 midst of a bad drug addiction, untreatedmental illness crisis, and yet what's the 691 00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:09.320 strategy on either of those is totally not clear? Right, So but I 692 00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:13.079 think that goes to Republicans too. I mean, you know, during the 693 00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:17.000 recall election, Larry Elder, who was the main Republican candidate, he didn't 694 00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:20.960 really have a particularly good answer or a good story on what do you do 695 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:24.239 about homelessness and drug addiction. There was some hand waving, but he also 696 00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:28.079 said things like, I mean, it's confusing because he would say, we 697 00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:31.239 need to decriminalize all drugs. Yeah, at the same time he said, 698 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:35.880 oh, we got to have charities involved in taking care of addicts. That's 699 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:40.719 just not good enough. I mean, he really needed a more serious proposal. 700 00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.679 I mean, it was interesting to me last night when I was watching 701 00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.960 young Ken from Virginia give his acceptance speech. He talked about he said something 702 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:52.719 like, and we're going to invest in behavioral health, and I felt like, 703 00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.000 wow, that is like a big piece of wonk are for your acceptance 704 00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:00.760 speech. But it shows that, you know, but behavioral health is very 705 00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:05.920 you know, avant garde language describe mental what we used to call mental health 706 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.199 or basically you know, behaviors that are affected by addiction or mental illness. 707 00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:15.440 Yeah, you know, using very progressive and that's like a very using very 708 00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:19.519 progressive wonky language describes something similar. But yeah, if that were if you 709 00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:22.559 had someone that was more like a young kin than a Larry Elder. Yeah, 710 00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:25.639 you know who's who's out there, you know, pretty progressive on a 711 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:31.719 bunch of things, you know, including healthcare, including you know, probably 712 00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:36.960 in California they've got to be pro abortion rights, you know. Um. 713 00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:39.840 But again that's hard because so much of the Republican based in California is actually 714 00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:45.199 quite similar to the Trump base and the rest of the country. Yeah, 715 00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:49.719 I noticed that. I think the problem also with mental health is what, 716 00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:57.400 you know, the definition of mental health has become so elastic. So you 717 00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:04.360 were talking about schizophrenia the other moments, and that falls under mental health, 718 01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:10.000 but also what met and Marcos suffers from also falls under mental health. So 719 01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:16.119 if you have a definition that's that wide, you will just be wasting resources. 720 01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:22.519 Really, what does Megan Marcos say she suffers from? Search me? 721 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:30.639 Narcissism? Yeah, so I think entitlements, extreme entitlements and narcissism with some 722 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:35.599 neuroticism built into what I guess I mean guys like that's pathetic. That is 723 01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:38.280 the problem. So if that's mental health, which she has, his mental 724 01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:43.840 health and then you have people who are psychotic, either on drugs or because 725 01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:47.119 of their genes, and are really violent, you know, veterans from military 726 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:53.639 with property is trauma. You know, where where do you know where's the 727 01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:58.760 cutoff? I mean, one of the questions I was wrestling with in San 728 01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:04.199 Francico that we wrestled with this staff with sort of is universal the universal healthcare 729 01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:07.559 proposal that we're proposing. Is it just for there really down and out, 730 01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:10.159 the people on the streets, the people suffering really bad illness. You know, 731 01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:17.079 Ultimately we think we need universal mental health stay wide because before people get 732 01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:22.039 to the point where they're on the street, they are kids experimenting with drugs 733 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:25.760 they need you know, often, you know, often this is the argus, 734 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:30.800 not my argument, but I agree, there's a lot of people that 735 01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:34.880 are self medicating. Yeah, and so you see people that you know, 736 01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:42.960 young people that would have benefited from an antidepressant or maybe an ADHD drug or 737 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:49.840 you know that plus some therapy and a job and some counseling would be fine. 738 01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:52.159 You know. Um. One of the things is that you know, 739 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:55.679 the argument by by Sally Satel, who's one of the people that blurbed my 740 01:01:55.719 --> 01:02:02.039 book psychiatrist at American Enterprise Institute. She just argue, use the opioid crisis, 741 01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:07.880 you have to Yes, the drug companies were terrible and they weren't regulated 742 01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.480 properly and all that stuff, and yes, loneliness and despair, all those 743 01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:15.679 things are factors, but we just didn't provide proper psychiatric care for people suffering 744 01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:22.960 from some treat highly treatable mental illness. I mean, anti depressants are miracles, 745 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:28.679 miracle drugs. But we have a pretty good I mean it's not perfect. 746 01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:31.639 We have pretty good drugs for people, good medicines for people, but 747 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:35.800 they need to see a psychiatrist. You need so there and you know the 748 01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:39.440 great thing is telepsyche now means that it's not should not be super expensive. 749 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:43.320 You don't need to go see a psychiatrist every week. Most people don't, 750 01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.320 at least not for long periods of time. So when you ask about costs, 751 01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:51.239 like, one way you bring down the costs is you help people to 752 01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:54.159 get the care that they need. They're seeing a psychiatrist because that's the most 753 01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:59.320 expensive part of the system, is the psychiatrist because they're mds. But you 754 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:01.199 know, most people, well they maybe just need to get their medicines. 755 01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:04.639 They need to tweak it a little bit over some time, but then they're 756 01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:08.960 going to be okay with exercise, therapy, diet, job, you know, 757 01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:14.519 relationships, the typical ingredients of a happy life, and I think you 758 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:17.400 can you can end up avoiding a lot of the expensive cost later. But 759 01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:22.400 again, you've got to have a society that understands. And this is where 760 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:25.239 the Dutch are brilliant. Yeah, that it does require carrots and sticks, 761 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:29.679 it does require discipline, and that the Beatles were wrong. Love is not 762 01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:36.159 all we need. Yeah. Well, I could listen to you all day 763 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:42.480 long, all day long, and even though we you know, we're talking 764 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:46.280 about some of his grave issues, you always give me hope. So, 765 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:51.880 Michael, thank you so much. Oh it's wonderful to speak with you again, 766 01:03:51.920 --> 01:04:20.519 and it's always a pleasure. Let's keep the conversation going. Thank you 767 01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:25.760 for tuning into another episode of the Ian Heresy ALI podcast. I hope you're 768 01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:30.320 enjoying these conversations as much as I am. Visit Ianhercli dot com to learn 769 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:34.880 more and consider subscribing to support this podcast. As always, I'm looking forward 770 01:04:34.920 --> 01:05:00.320 to the next conversation. Seve