WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.039 Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of React Roundup. I am your 2 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:14.000 host today TJ Van Tol and with me today on our panel I have Jack 3 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:19.519 Herrington, Hello, and Paige neding House. Hey everyone, and our special 4 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.079 guest today is Chris Bruin. Chris, how's it going? Welcome to React 5 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:28.120 Round Up? Hi, Thanks for having me. Yeah. So Chris, 6 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:31.160 why don't you start by telling us a little bit about who you are, 7 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.520 what you do, why you're famous, all that good sort of stuff. 8 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:41.439 Okay, yeah, famous might be questionable. Yeah. So I'm currently a 9 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:47.640 full fac software engineer at a startup called in Club and it's based around Zurich, 10 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:52.880 Switzerland, and we're I guess we're trying to be if you could imagine 11 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:58.640 kind of Airbnb but for experiences. So I'm going hiking this weekend. Who 12 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:00.920 wants to come with me? Or I mean going on a pub crawl? 13 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:03.959 Who wants to come with me? And so, yeah, I've been there 14 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:10.640 now just over a year. Yeah, from everything from back end, mobile 15 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.040 app CMS, everything in between. So I've seen a little bit of everything. 16 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.519 Awesome. So I know we reached out because you've written a couple of 17 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:23.239 really interesting articles about your thoughts, like I think all sorts of things from 18 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:30.920 like code structure to testing, how BDD like behavior behavior driven development. So 19 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:34.400 maybe do you want to start by just giving like an overview of some of 20 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.400 like maybe we could start with like BDD and like how you came to like 21 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:42.000 how you structure code and how you approach problems at the startup, because I 22 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:45.239 not a whole lot of us get the chance to really, like green Field 23 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.840 build something like that at scales. I'm curious, like some of your thoughts 24 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.480 and opinions you have to share around that sort of thing. Sure. Yeah, 25 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:57.280 So the challenge for us was that we we were a very small team, 26 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.680 so up until a few weeks ago, I was kind of the only 27 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:06.359 developer, So it was me and the two co founders. So as you 28 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:09.919 said, yeah, super Greenfield, and we actually we were guided. One 29 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:15.759 of our technical advisors told us about this kind of behavior driven development thing. 30 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.919 So we're like, okay, what is this and so he he pointed us, 31 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:23.159 I guess at the very top of this whole like behavior driven development and 32 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:30.479 test driven development stuff is this language called Girkin. And so Gurkin is simply 33 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:37.000 you could consider it like a programming language but it's also kind of yeah behavior 34 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:43.599 and kind of product design language. So basically the only the three important keywords 35 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:50.199 are given when and then, and for us developers, that kind of corresponds 36 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:54.759 one to one to the whole the act arrange, assert Trio. So the 37 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:59.800 reason he the reason he pointed us in this direction is that the two co 38 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:05.120 founders, they're kind of the minds behind the product and driving a lot of 39 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.039 the ideas behind the product. They can describe in playing in English or with 40 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:12.800 these three sentences right, given let's say, given I open the app, 41 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.120 when I press the log in button, then I see the login screen, 42 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:21.680 right something like that. They can explain steps in very plain English. And 43 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.199 then we or I I guess it's we. Now there's there's two of us. 44 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:30.280 Now that's awesome. We can write the tests against these kind of Yeah, 45 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:34.840 these we call them Girkin special specifications. It's pretty cool. And it's 46 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.039 spelled just for anybody else curious g H E R K I N just for 47 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.479 anybody just casually googling this as we go across, because I would not have 48 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:47.120 guessed that's spelling at all. Yeah, I believe integrate with jest or how 49 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:50.560 do I if I'm if I just want to start with this or where do 50 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.599 I start with this? Yeah, so there's there's two kind of two ways. 51 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:59.879 The one way is you can use a library called the Cucumber, with 52 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.400 which they have actually drivers for a lot of languages, I think also Plain, 53 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.879 Java, JavaScript, Cotlan, other languages, So you can use that 54 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:12.599 and they you basically directly import like a function called given and then you pass 55 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:16.720 the string of whatever the given line of that description file is. But yeah, 56 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:21.519 we've we have since integrated with jest. There's also there's an integration you 57 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:28.199 basically so when you write these these specification files. We we're using the dot 58 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.279 feature file extension that seems to be like kind of a standard, and this 59 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.160 just integration works that you you import, they have like it's called like a 60 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:41.319 load feature function and then just knows oh okay, I'm reading from this feature 61 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:46.519 file and then you have defined feature with more more in I guess a standard 62 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.720 just way. But still with these you get these little given when then functions 63 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.600 that you can you can call from just in the order of the steps. 64 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:59.279 Oh nice, Yeah, I found that it's just dash cucumber on GitHub and 65 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:03.120 you're right, it like it looks to me like any other just all these 66 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.800 nouns. It's kind of sometimes you take a step back and go, like, 67 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.560 these sentences I'm saying are a little crazy, but it looks like any 68 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:15.639 other just test that I've seen before. But you're right, it clearly has 69 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:21.600 the given when then type of structure just sort of embedded within it. And 70 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:27.560 that's really interesting that you've been able to incorporate that into a testing framework because 71 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.639 at the last company that I worked with, our product managers were responsible for 72 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.600 writing a lot of our feature stories, and they would use that sort of 73 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:40.319 syntax to write out the story, so exactly like you would say, given 74 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.040 a user clicks on a button, when they are given a users on our 75 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.759 application, when they click on the input button, then I should open up 76 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.480 the input or the login screen. But we would then translate that into our 77 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:57.399 own tests, where it would be like tests or it should xyz. So 78 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.279 that's really cool that you can just take it directly from the user's story or 79 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:05.040 the user input and make that part of the test, because it's like, 80 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:09.839 if you don't meet that criteria exactly, you know there's something wrong with the 81 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:14.240 code, not the or how it was defined. Maybe but that's really cool 82 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.120 that you could have that one to one comparison. Yeah, I mean I 83 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.879 think there's there's huge advantages. I mean, what what you just described is 84 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:27.240 is amazing, right, Like the basically the product development team or the product 85 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.879 management team can kind of have a one to one bridge right to the engineers. 86 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.000 And what what we also found now that we have we have this new 87 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:40.920 developer on, you basically have your whole infrastructure more or less, you can 88 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.879 say hey, like or if you know, if they they're asking about what 89 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:45.920 does this feature do or how does it work, you say, hey, 90 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:48.600 don't read the test. Read the test second, but first read these read 91 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.959 these feature files. It's and then you can understand, Okay, I see 92 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:57.399 exactly these user stories in plain English. So that's that's super valuable. So 93 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.199 you keep around the like plain english, verys of these requirements then, so 94 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.600 it's not just the tests that that live on Yeah, yeah, these are 95 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:10.079 these are checked right intoto the code base. So with that said, like 96 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:15.040 what what page was mentioning, Sometimes we can write the test directly as they're 97 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.800 written. But but sometimes, I mean it's it's been a constant learning process 98 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.000 for both of us. I mean for example, we had features where it 99 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.439 was like, you know, you have a form, and it's like if 100 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.240 the email is wrong, I see an email error. If the first names 101 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:30.680 wrong, I see a first name air. But I've learned, like, 102 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.279 okay, that should probably just be like in a unit test for like the 103 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:39.879 form validation function, right, that doesn't probably need to be always like you 104 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.079 probably don't need to write every test in this in this given one men syntax. 105 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.959 It's it's it's kind of like a pick and choose and it's a constant 106 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:50.279 like yeah, it's it's a discussion between between us and the product team. 107 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:54.240 So it would this be more of a replacement for like EEDE tests then, 108 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:58.639 I mean I wouldn't necessarily writing unit tests this way. I guess you could 109 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.360 like more, Yeah, you're you're right. That's that's where we've found it's 110 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.639 the easiest, right because end to end tests are much higher level anyway, 111 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.680 which we're much better with. Like I press the spot and I go to 112 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:16.480 the homepage, I find that my name says Yeah. I've never used this 113 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:20.600 structure for actually implementing tests before, but I have used this when working with 114 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:26.000 like product people before, and the other kind of nice thing I think about 115 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:33.159 this format is is it forces product people to give more specific requirements for things 116 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.320 as well, because I'm sure a lot of you can resonate with. Sometimes 117 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:45.600 you'll get these requirements that are like vague or they have or they're complicated like 118 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.080 yeah, or are they don't yeah exactly, they don't consider things beyond and 119 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.559 like this sort of forces you to say, like, Okay, well, 120 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.840 when this happens or this scenario, when this happens, what should happen? 121 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.759 Right, what happens with these account types? What happens if they try to 122 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.080 log in and they already have an account or it's an in veiled email or 123 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.039 the servers down or whatever. Right, So it gives you like a clear 124 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.200 just means of specifying requirements. Yeah, and then and then even better like 125 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.440 when when you do get that feedback, then you still have this these descriptions 126 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.200 and these scenarios for those the unhappy path or when the service down, given 127 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.120 the surface down, what happens? So yeah, I think I used this 128 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:33.000 at a previous job, and I remember there being like part of was on 129 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:39.399 us to actually go and build out like the regular expressions like enable the terminology 130 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.960 like when I do X I see law and like you kind of like we're 131 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.000 writing regular expressions to match some of the English terminology of the test. Yeah, 132 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.240 is that you find yourself doing that a lot already? Is that not 133 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.879 not so much? What do you mean exactly? Or well, like there 134 00:09:54.879 --> 00:10:00.720 were expression matchers for the terminology in the test because the terms knowledge is written 135 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.919 in kind of an plain English speaking style, right when I go to the 136 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.879 page, I ended up actually having to write like pattern matchers for some of 137 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:13.679 that stuff. Yeah, it depends, I guess, I'm not sure what 138 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:18.600 you mean exactly. So do you mean like the because the given or you 139 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.240 mean the body of the test itself? Like what? Yeah? Yeah, 140 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:26.480 yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's we we typically have done. What 141 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.720 we've been using a lot, especially in these end to end tests, is 142 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.799 just like a test ID if you're if you're aware with those of those. 143 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.039 So yeah, this the the whole thing behind test IDs is a bit it's 144 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:45.320 considered sometimes anti pattern, I guess, but what we realized is because it's 145 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.879 also because the whole kind of startup environment features could change like two weeks from 146 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.480 now with different even you know, different UI elements, different texts and and 147 00:10:54.559 --> 00:11:00.480 everything like that. So some of the other matchers like get get by store. 148 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:05.240 Yeah, get by elements don't make so much sense, at least from 149 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.559 from our opinion. So when you have this test id, Yeah, it's 150 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.480 difficult. I mean sometimes the test id itself kind of gives way to what 151 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.480 it is, like a button or at least like a touchable. We're working 152 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.000 and reacting to a touchable opacity. So one question I have you said, 153 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:28.519 you do you store a lot of these requirements in actually in the code base, 154 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.840 So how do you handle like the location of those especially for things because 155 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.919 occasionally you'll have requirements that aren't specific to say, like a page, right, 156 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.360 Like they'll have to be like I do something on one page and then 157 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.440 I go back to another and something should happen sort of things. I do 158 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.320 you have like app level requirements or like how like how sort of pedantic do 159 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.679 you get about that? And how do you sort of handle that sort of 160 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.480 thing? Yeah, that's that's something we're still working on. So far. 161 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.600 We've we've had like a set usually you have like five or six of these 162 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:03.399 feature files per feature. But then we've also like the engineering team as also 163 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:09.600 we've kind of designed our own feature files. Still still to this, which 164 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.480 I could hear, I could hear a lot of people out there would be 165 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.080 like, well, that's a waste of time. But it's still going back 166 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.200 to this idea that you have. You have a catalog of of everything that 167 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.000 that you you're testing in the catalog of these features. So typically, for 168 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.159 example, like these end to end tests, we've written ourselves in the Girkin 169 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.919 syntax with which has these kind of cross you know, multi page stories and 170 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.840 things like that. Yeah, it's it's difficult to it's difficult to balance that 171 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:41.360 like some should I explain, because you can't ask like the product team, 172 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.679 they can't write a feature file probably for a specific function in your code base, 173 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:48.399 right, they don't know about it. So it's really uh, it 174 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.840 just comes down to reading, reading the features and saying, okay, where's 175 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.200 this going to go? More than more often than not, it's probably going 176 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:00.919 to go into an integration test or end to end test. But even then 177 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.039 you may even want to break down or talk with them say yeah, okay, 178 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.840 let's let's take these scenarios and put them in a different test or that 179 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:15.039 actually belongs with a different feature or grouped with other features. It's quite it's 180 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:20.279 quite challenging. Actually, I'm not sure that that's probably a horrible or or 181 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.200 no good answer there, but you know, because I think everybody struggled. 182 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.879 Yeah, well everybody struggles with this, right, Like I think this is 183 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:33.279 the just a common thread of software development no matter what system you use, 184 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.440 like where you put tests and where how you organize require ements and how you 185 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:41.200 maintain them over time is a constant struggle. So if anybody had the magic 186 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:48.159 bullet answer, we'd all be just doing that. Yeah, one thing I 187 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.320 can say to that at least is that we so we have like for our 188 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.159 end to end tests, which are supposed to be like the least you know, 189 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.039 the top of the pyramid, least used and whatnot. What we do 190 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.720 you have there is like only the we call them like business critical stories, 191 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.279 right, so like can a user check out? Can they do this? 192 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.519 Other? Like typically like so we have at in club, we have you 193 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.879 can create your own experience of course, like you can put in the title 194 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.519 description these things we have as end to end tests, because yeah, they're 195 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.679 they're the most important. But in terms of yeah, in terms of unit 196 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.240 tests and integration tests, well, currently we're a bit more lax with those, 197 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.360 of course you should, you should have all your test passing before you 198 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.720 go to to production. But just in terms of way they're designed, a 199 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.120 lot of a lot more of them are just written by us, the software 200 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:45.799 team, and there's not maybe not a feature file yet for those. So 201 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.320 so that actually leads into my next question. And you touched on this a 202 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:54.759 little bit with the testing pyramid, but how much how many integration and unit 203 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.519 tests would you say you have compared to your end to end tests. What's 204 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.559 your percentage? Yeah, we we have. We're kind of weird. The 205 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.039 middle middle of our pyramid is very fat, so the integration level, and 206 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.919 I think that comes a lot from like React itself. You can argue maybe 207 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.960 a small component is like a unit test, but probably in reality you're you're 208 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.960 gonna need something, some component from somewhere else to test your components. And 209 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.840 and that's the biggest part of our our code base. I mean, we 210 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.759 have the unit tests we do have are only for we have only I don't 211 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.879 know a dozen or so, and those are for our big, like, 212 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.519 our most critical functions. Ideally, I mean, everybody wants the ideal world 213 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.600 where you have one hundred percent test coverage. Every function, every component. 214 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.919 Well, okay, maybe we don't as a software developers, maybe we don't 215 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.480 because we'll go crazy. But yeah, it's so we have. I would 216 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.080 say, how to maybe like fifteen fifteen percent unit and end to end, 217 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.200 so on the on the two ends, and then the rest is all is 218 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.039 all integration. Yeah, that's just what we have currently. No, I 219 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:04.519 think that makes sense. I'm also, like we've had conversations before. We're 220 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.240 we're not on team hundred percent unit testing coverage here at this on this show, 221 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:14.960 we're very much pragmatic. And I think it's even beyond pragmatic because if 222 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.480 you have a goal of one hundred percent test coverage, that puts in sort 223 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.559 of like weird incentives as well, like you end up just writing tests just 224 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:27.600 to do it versus whether it's actually providing value to you as well. Yeah. 225 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.399 Yeah, and then they get these meaningless tests and if they break, 226 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:36.360 you're not quite sure why what are you testing? What was the intent here? 227 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.240 And all that? Yeah, I mean well, no, no, 228 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.519 I'm happy to riff on this. I was going to ask a the IDCD 229 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.120 question, but we'll get there. No, I was just going to add 230 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.519 one final thought that I mean Your unit tests are code too. You have 231 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:49.879 to maintain it. Your requirements are going to change, they're going to break, 232 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.919 So your test should be doing something versus just being there. So you 233 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.679 hit the hit the lines of code to make your your whatever code coverage tool 234 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.480 happen. I think you should always have some rules, like if we do 235 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:04.640 a certain type of change, we don't want a unit test to break. 236 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.640 Like if we if we make a text change to a button, you don't 237 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:12.960 want a unit test or any contest to pass. That sounds like chaos tests 238 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.599 jack, well, you know, but like if you if you like make 239 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.400 a spelling fix, like that's you know, come on, yeah, you 240 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.799 know a little I'm talking about like the little blurbe texts, like you know 241 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.920 the things that snapshot test car here, yes exactly, Yeah, basically just 242 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.000 trying to ward people off of snapshot testing, like please don't do that. 243 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.160 Well, okay, so Chris c i CD, So when do you just 244 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.160 to kind of dig into the whole DevOps thing here? So when do you 245 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.480 run these tests? And how do you like a headless thing? Do you 246 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.960 run in c CD? All that very soon we will run them in c 247 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.640 i CD. Okay, but that that has a lot more to do with 248 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:57.240 with me being the solo guy, and I didn't the whole trouble with with 249 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:04.200 Apple. Building has to be on a Mac and the only although native Yeah, 250 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.880 yeah, and the tooling is the tooling is tough, and although Apple 251 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:12.119 is releasing a cloud. But yeah, I run the test locally before before 252 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.839 release or when we're getting quite close. But that's very soon to be added 253 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.680 now that I have some help from from our new new developer. But doubled 254 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:27.319 the engineering team size for us. But yeah, I think the typical the 255 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:32.799 path is simply I like to throw in the the type check that type check's 256 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:36.599 empty. That's actually my first test, even before unit and then the unit 257 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.759 tests, then integration and then end to end. When you say type check, 258 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:45.119 you mean like typescript checking, yes, the ts Yeah, actually we 259 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.759 can. It might be overkill. That might have been a bit of overkill 260 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.279 from me, but we wrote we converted ours into a unit check, like 261 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.480 we get the output from TSC and if it's zero lines, the unit test 262 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:02.000 passes. So although I I did that, and then I realized later I 263 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.759 was like, yeah, I could just run the bash command as part of 264 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.599 the pipeline, Like yeah, I think it could turn that like into a 265 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.440 husky step too. Yeah. Yeah, so Chris, another article you have 266 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:18.000 that I think it's kind of interesting you make the case for one function per 267 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.440 file, which could be potentially controversial. I don't know how the other hosts 268 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.079 feel, but why don't you start by making the case for this? Why 269 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.160 one function per file? Yeah? So yeah, I've worked with a lot 270 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.119 of code basis. Typically I think it's a React pattern. It might be 271 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.200 almost like a legacy React pattern, is that you'd have, you know, 272 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.359 you'd have a bunch of exports in one giant file called like I think in 273 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.279 my blog post, I use like a math as an example, right, 274 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:48.519 so you could imagine ad subtract divide. Okay, great, but then if 275 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.480 you if you use them first, you import them and then you've got this 276 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.559 big import from one file. But the hardest or the most confusing thing for 277 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.079 me from that pattern is that when you're in this function file, you're looking 278 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.400 all over the place and jumping around and I don't know. I like, 279 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.559 if I open a file, it's just I can see hopefully if the function 280 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:14.200 is well organized, should all fit right on the screen, right, And 281 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.759 then I have it and The idea there and how it relates to testing, 282 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.039 is that when you do a unit test, you import this file and that's 283 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:26.359 basically other than all your test tooling, that should be the only file from 284 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.920 your codebase that you're importing. And then you're sure that at least in a 285 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.759 unit sense, this is like what's under test, like this single thing in 286 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.480 my code base. Yeah, I'm trying to decide if I like it or 287 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.839 not. In my head, I'm going to go with dislike. I mean, 288 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:47.039 I can imagine at least maybe as a compromise, like one exposed function, 289 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:52.680 like because I definitely do things where I hide like internal stuff as if 290 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.920 somehow add in the math context we're a complex thing to do or something. 291 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:00.119 Well, but you could argue you could make a function within a function a 292 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:04.079 JavaScript, you can throw functions anywhere. Okay, sure, don't do that 293 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.279 in a React component. I've seen that before, people making like subcomponents inside 294 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.400 inside of the declaration of a function component. That is bad, Like, 295 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.359 do not don't do that. Sure, I'll actually mess up React if you 296 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.759 do that. But in math, if your math, if your function needed 297 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.400 to do some like repetitive thing over and over again, you could do that. 298 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:27.759 In my My argument was, if you had this sort of math function, 299 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:32.519 you can organize them by the file name and the subfolder, so like 300 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:37.759 math slash ad math slash subtract. Yep, Okay, I maybe I'm like 301 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.160 I suspect I'm in a small minority. Yeah, it just feels like a 302 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.079 lot of files to keep track up instead of just one that has all of 303 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:52.240 your related functions together. Yeah. I feel like now I'm just bringing up 304 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.440 like a bringing up like a code base and looking around because I don't know, 305 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.599 like dread my good base at the same time, Like I can see 306 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.960 though, like I do, even if I don't totally agree with one function 307 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:11.440 per file, like definitely, like it's definitely an anti pattern to be building 308 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:17.480 like these monstrosity files that I think most of us have worked on, right, 309 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:22.079 Like even if like we maybe can't get on board fully with swimming things 310 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.839 down to one function like once your file, like I've had I've worked at 311 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.960 places where we had rules that like once you reached a file reached a certain 312 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.880 number of lines, it would spit out some sort of warning, right like 313 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.000 you're you're over like three hundred lines in this file, Like are you are 314 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.240 you sure you want to keep Are you sure you want to keep going the 315 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.880 RB dragons. I just refactored a graph you OL server file that I had. 316 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:55.799 There's twenty four hundred lines. Oh my god. I remember you might 317 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.440 want to consider this one function per file, right, But now I understand 318 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:06.319 like why he says his unit his integration tests are so large because if an 319 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.559 integration test is defined by a test, because integration tests are a weird definition 320 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.000 anyway, but if it's defined by a test that includes more than one file, 321 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.359 then yeah, no, man, if you have one function for file, 322 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:21.200 like ninety percent of your tests are going to span across multiple files. 323 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:26.720 Somehow, It's true, very controversial. I would say, yeah, yeah, 324 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.839 it may have been just my reaction to seeing I've also worked with some 325 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.359 of these giant files and I just said, nope, nope, just keep 326 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.880 it simple. One per file. That's my rule. Yeah, we'll see. 327 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.160 Maybe we also have to refactor some of our functions. I look at 328 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:47.240 me that if you hit command P and so you're now searching around on files 329 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:51.000 in VS code, different IDs have never ones. But if you're doing command 330 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.680 P, then an you type an AD, right, you'd get if you 331 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.720 have one one function of or file. You get it, that's that's kind 332 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:02.279 of cool, as long as okay, don't do the thing you have like 333 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:07.160 an ad directory like slash mask slash ads slash index Oh no, no, 334 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:12.279 index imglentation and then index that'sc or test dot Oh god no, then you 335 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:18.279 a billion indexes. So, Chris, when you joined the company that you're 336 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.039 working for, now, was it completely greenfield where you just got to build 337 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.640 this app from scratch and make all the design decisions, the architecture decisions, 338 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:32.279 what libraries were using, what stack or was there something that you inherited that 339 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.359 you kind of had to take and build off of. It was it was 340 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.640 definitely inherited, and it actually was a lot of what Jack just mentioned infinite 341 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:47.319 index JS files. Uh, that's yeah, that's also that's part of why 342 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:51.839 I went to that this one file one function for file pattern. But in 343 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:56.400 the other the other struggle, at least from a from a JavaScript or now 344 00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.960 typescript perspective, is that they had it was a weird mix of there was 345 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:07.200 I was seeing typescript syntax with with JS file extensions and everything in between. 346 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.079 And actually, that's that's something nice we've we've achieved very recently is there's no 347 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.599 more typescript theres in the entire code base. It took a long time, 348 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.039 but we've finally gotten there. And now it's great because you can, for 349 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.880 example, like we just upgraded a package. Then you just run TSC and 350 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.920 you say, okay, they changed. You know, of course you read 351 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:32.359 the documentation, but you find immediately where in the codebase that that the changes 352 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.920 are. And so these types don't work here. Before when when we had 353 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.960 five hundred typescript theres anyway, they were just lost in a sea of like 354 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:45.559 confused and you don't know, you don't know where there's like errors hiding. 355 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.759 See I was. It was a big takeover. And of course there were 356 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.799 also no tests written. And I still think tests in general are kind of 357 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.680 I might be biased from my own experience. It was one of the last 358 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.200 things that I kind of learned and I'm still learning as a software engineer, 359 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.039 but I think it's a lot of because we all like to when we test, 360 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.599 we'd like to run just run the app or click around and use it 361 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:11.759 ourselves. Right, That's like it's kind of the natural, your natural way 362 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:15.519 to go. But but I really see now the value of having automated tests 363 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.000 and it gives you security and we're not not security, but a better feeling 364 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:23.880 about what you're shipping to. Just another layer layer of uh yeah, of 365 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.240 keep in mind. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, you can always 366 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.920 get down to zero warnings and zero well zero error is for sure, but 367 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:38.440 zero warnings because otherwise, yeah, it's just it's white noise and people have 368 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:44.880 taken ord after a while, you know, you know, and then yeah, 369 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:49.160 yeah, oh no, nobody touched that function because if we touch it 370 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:57.119 or change it, you know, nobody knows what happens. Yeah. So, 371 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.359 Chris, do you have any other tips there from being like a solo 372 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:07.119 developer starting on like a big project like this, do you have like any 373 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.319 any other thoughts or people things people might find interesting from going just going through 374 00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.519 that experience. I think I think the best thing you can do is just 375 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.359 to I want to say, write one function pro file, but no really 376 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.680 it's uh, the best thing you can do is try and be organized or 377 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.400 right right code. That's you know, thinking about this, like this file 378 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.920 length limit. That's almost true, especially when you work alone, you can't 379 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:40.359 really afford to have these big complex functions and components and even on a bigger 380 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.079 team, you probably shouldn't. So I think my number one advice would be 381 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:48.519 to try and write code that's like small and manage in small, manageable parts 382 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.880 that work together. Yeah. I think I can definitely see that because if 383 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.799 I'm left to myself, if I'm coding by myself, I definitely have a 384 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.839 different mode right where I'm far more willing to just go this. This is 385 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.799 the wild West, right. I have my giant function. I know what 386 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.839 it does, does what it needs to do right, and I don't think 387 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.119 about it too much. Whereas if I'm working on a team, I'll approach 388 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.000 it like, well, okay, page is going to see this and have 389 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.920 to figure out what it's going to do and how that's going to work, 390 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.799 So I might think about it a little bit more. So I think I 391 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.920 would struggle in that role just because I don't know my my apps would fall 392 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.519 apart at scale because I would just be lazy about it. Yeah, I 393 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.359 mean I had to fight the same thing too, right, But but the 394 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.240 hope I kept in mind, I was like, yeah, soon soon there 395 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:40.480 will be someone on the team, you know, you know, with the 396 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.200 vision that that we're growing. I mean, we are. We are growing 397 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:47.960 slowly too, but the division that more people, more engineers will be writing 398 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.319 on this codebase. So yeah, yeah. Every time i'm ass to value 399 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.319 about a codebased and it's a single coder on it and it's been there for 400 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:57.960 a year or so over a year, I'm like, oh, that's going 401 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:02.400 to be, that's gonna be somewhere's weird stuff going on there. Yeah, 402 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:07.240 single engineer or also like contractor written. That's That's been the other red flag 403 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.880 for me too. Oh yeah, just because when someone's not accountable to the 404 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.519 team, right, they just just somebody just has to see something working to 405 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:22.079 sign off on it. Then things can often get hairy. I would be 406 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.839 a strong fan of the single function profile if I was a contractor in getting 407 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:33.519 paid per file. There you go, I'll do it, yeah, exactly 408 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:38.960 at one constant profile. Awesome, Well, Chris, have we We've covered 409 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:44.240 a lot of ground? Is there anything we've missed, Like any articles you've 410 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.880 covered, any topics that that we haven't got into that you you wanted to 411 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.640 discuss it all. I think one thing I was going to mention before we 412 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.480 got into the whole ci CD and the function pro file discussion, a huge 413 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.920 thing that we've learned or it's quite simple really is like, because you know 414 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.599 we're talking about all these tests. You have all your tests, they pass 415 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.240 great, but most often, of course, bugs are either like super weird 416 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.880 or user reported that nobody expect or saw. And one of the best kind 417 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.240 of patterns that we've done is like, Okay, we get a critical bug 418 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:21.359 or either a very weird bug or something. Then you write a test specifically 419 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.920 against that bug. It maybe it wasn't in your feature files, wasn't in 420 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.839 your specifications, but write a test against that bug or fix the bug, 421 00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.000 of course, and then write a test against it to kind of make sure 422 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:34.519 that it doesn't come back right that it doesn't. There's no limits. Agree 423 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.279 on that one. Sure, So yeah, that's one thing I forgot to 424 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.920 mention. But that's I mean, even that might even be if you want 425 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.319 to if your work somewhere and maybe your organization has no test yet, that 426 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:48.680 may be one of the first places to go or the easiest way to start 427 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:51.599 writing tests. Yeah, it's also very satisfying if you can get it, 428 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:53.920 like get it to show up as red and then you implement a fix and 429 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:57.240 then feel confident to like get to see it switch over. It's very it's 430 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:04.079 a very satisfying feeling too exactly. Yeah, cool, what's been awesome chatting 431 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.319 with you. I think we can move on to our picks. So it's 432 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:12.200 where we just pick something movies, TV show music. We're still waiting for 433 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.119 somebody to have a strong musical take. The do a lot of TV shows. 434 00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.160 But Jack, do you want to kick us off today? Yeah? 435 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.960 Sure, we're not. My daughter and I just finished up the UCS Millennium 436 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.960 Falcon build, which is I like, it's a Lego build. It's just 437 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:33.039 enormously huge, you know, it's like, I think seven thousand parts and 438 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.200 epic. Yeah. How long did that take? We're kind of old hands 439 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.720 at the Lego thing, so it took us three and a half four days. 440 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.559 Wow, But it was you know, it was we basically traded off 441 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.559 on it and it was fun. You know. So if you're into that 442 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:55.519 sort of thing, it's a it's a fun build. I will say that 443 00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:59.160 if you are into movie speak. It has a lot of us called greebles, 444 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:01.519 which are just basically little things that you put on something to make it 445 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.960 visually interesting. So there's just a lot of stuff on there, just like 446 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.559 it doesn't. I'm actually not functional. It's just kind of stuck on and 447 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.279 it's just a lot of that, like you build a structural piece and then 448 00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.799 it's like a bunch of like just add a lot of little bits of Yeah, 449 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.279 it's fun, awesome, cool page. What picks do you have? 450 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.759 My pick for this week is going to continue on the kitchen tools train. 451 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:30.240 So this is a plastic wrap dispenser. So normally when you get plastic wrap, 452 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.799 it comes in those those cardboard boxes. The little cutters not very good 453 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:37.039 if there is a cutter at all, or just rips and terrors and stuff. 454 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:44.200 So we bought a bamboo wooden food dispenser. It comes with a really 455 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:49.200 nice little top cutter and it works like a charm. It's really heavy so 456 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.640 you can just pull the wrap. It doesn't slide across the table after you. 457 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.640 The cutter works really well. So I would definitely recommend that if you 458 00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:00.920 have twenty dollars to spend, get one of these things and you'll probably never 459 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:05.519 need another one. I've probably seen one of these bike behind a sushi bar 460 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.160 or something when they're like making the rolls. Yeah kind of thing. Yeah, 461 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:12.799 awesome. My pick this week is going to be a weird one, 462 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.279 kind of a very specific one. But I'm going to pick Amazon Go, 463 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:19.720 which I don't know if any of you have went to one of these stores 464 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.680 before, but you'd have to be in either Seattle, Chicago, or New 465 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.039 York. So that's why it's a very specific pick. But there are these 466 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:31.920 stores by Amazon where their core tech is there's no checkout, you just grab 467 00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:36.799 you at the door. You go in, there's these turnstiles and you scan 468 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.039 your phone in the Amazon app, so it knows who you are, You 469 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:44.599 grab whatever you're going to buy, and then you just leave. And the 470 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.359 system there is smart enough. There's cameras. The entire ceiling is covered with 471 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:52.880 these cameras and you just get a notification on your phone a few minutes after 472 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:57.119 you walk out with just a receipt of what you bought. And I'm picking 473 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.000 you just because if you're in the area. It's just fascinating to do because 474 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.000 because it's it's just such a weird experience, right, like you feel very 475 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.079 very strange, like you feel like you're actually committing a crime when you walk 476 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.280 out of the place. And for me too, we went with the whole 477 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:14.039 family. So you go in as a group, and I was just amazed 478 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:16.639 at the technology because we said, we had two eleven year old kids, 479 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:20.760 right, so of course they're just grabbing things off the shelves, putting it 480 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.239 on and off, you know, walking around whatever. And sure enough, 481 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.039 we bought like five or six things between the four of us, and it 482 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.000 perfectly knew exactly what we bought, charged us perfectly, and I was just 483 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:32.639 kind of amazed by it. So if you're ever in the area, for 484 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:36.559 if you're a listener in one of those those three areas, it's it's worth 485 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.199 doing ones just to experience it. Is there any security there? Can you 486 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:43.800 just like just walk out? You literally walk out there? There was not 487 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:46.440 another There was not a human employee in the store. There might be somebody 488 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:49.719 like in the back or something for all I know, but we did not 489 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:55.159 see in a single employee. It's kind of crazy awesome. So, Chris, 490 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:59.719 what picks do you have? I guess I'll do the two books. 491 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.760 The first, I guess this is quite relevant. It's uh, we've we've 492 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.400 all read it on the team. It's The Lean Startup by Eric I think 493 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.719 Rice you pronounced it his last name. It's quite interesting and yeah, there's 494 00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:15.599 a lot of good stuff packed in there. So yeah, that that's my 495 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.639 first and then I guess, well, the second is a series of books, 496 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.599 the Foundation Series by Isaiah I guess it's it's made a kind of a 497 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:28.519 resurgence recently because I think Apple did a series on it or something. But 498 00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:31.840 yeah, Apple, the books are awesome. I recommend to read the books 499 00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.039 first because it seems like an unfilmable show and it kind of was. Actually 500 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.920 is. It's a science fiction Oh yeah, okay, I'll have to check 501 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.920 this out. Cool. Well, Chris, last question for you. If 502 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:51.920 people want to follow you, what so, what's the best place to to 503 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.719 do that sort of thing? I guess the easiest is just my blog. 504 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.039 It's uh, it's Chris Frew dot I N And I think from there you 505 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.880 can find find me anywhere. I am trying to get back to making YouTube 506 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.559 videos, but I've been extremely busy with the startup. But I hope this 507 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.719 Yeah so cool. Well, thanks so much for joining us. It's a 508 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.440 lot of fun to chat. Yeah, thanks a lot. It's really fun. 509 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.800 Cool And then until next week, everybody, alright, see them Bye.