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Hello, Welcome to Adventures in Angular, the podcast where we keep you updated

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on all things Angular related. This
show is produced by two companies, Top

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and Doves and Onvoid. Top and
Doves is where we create top and devs.

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We get top and pay in recognition
we're working on interesting problems and making

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meaningful community contributions. And Onvoid provides
remote design and software development services on a

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tap basis, so clients only pay
after the tests are delivered and approved.

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In today's episode, we are going
to talk about a subject that it's definitely

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interesting for most developers, not just
Angular developers, but it's also a subject

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that seems very hard, at least
at first. We're going to be talking

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about web assembly and more specifically,
how you can write code in Rust and

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have that code running in your Angular
application in the front end. And well

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you already know me. I'm Lucas
S. Paganini, your host in the

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podcast, but joining me in today's
episode is a very special guest. Iv

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Guiney is a freelancer in Angular and
also Rust, and he has researched on

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that subject specifically, so he is
our expert to talk about that today.

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Give me. Thank you for your
time welcome, Hello, Thank you for

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having means great having you all right, So let's start with the definition of

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things because I true in some concepts
that I imagine lots of folks are going

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to be at least familiar with the
names, so web assembly and rust.

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But the reality is that there might
be developers listening to us that don't even

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know what that means. Right,
So maybe we can start with just one

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minute quick definition of what is rust
and also what is web assembly. Web

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assembly is a set of instructions special
format, binary format, and programmers can

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use languages like c sharp plus lust, rust go to compile from these languages

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to special web assembly format and then
execute this code at native speeds in browser.

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So it's my sound call if you
need to execute something that's very computationally

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expensive with a huge performance. And
some applications actually might use this benefit of

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web assembly, as for example,
it might be video processing, video games,

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LM like large language models, cryptography
and things like that. And maybe

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it's really not for every web application, but the application that need to do

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things like that, they definitely need
the assembly. Okay, awesome. And

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then with regards to Rust itself,
I imagine that most people are going to

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be familiar with what Rust is,
but for the purposes of our episode,

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you can replace Rust with just any
compiled language that you want to run code

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in the front end, because we
will be talking about Rust, but web

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assembly itself is not just specific to
rest Right. You could be writing code

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in c sharp, for example,
and then use web assembly to bridge the

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gap between or regular front end code
in JavaScript and the binary or maybe not

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binary, but the compiled code that
you have written initially in C sharp or

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something. Right, So we'll be
talking about Rust because that was your experience

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and the technology that you chose to
use to create your code, But for

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the audience listening to this that might
not be fully comfortable with Rust. If

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you are comfortable with some other compiled
language and there's something in your front end

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application that needs to be extremely performant
and you can't just rely on JavaScript code

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to do it. You need something
heavier, or maybe you want to rely

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on libraries that don't yet exist on
JavaScript, but they might exist in other

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compiled languages. Then you can write
your code in those other compiled languages and

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compile and then package them in web
assembly, and then you can import them

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in your front end code. Yeah, that's it. Historically, there is

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a lot of developers that work with
Angular using c sharp back end, and

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I think for them it will be
especially beneficial to use c sharp as a

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source language. Not trust, but
because well it happened, like I have

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more experience with trust and what about
trust? Okay, regarding web assembly,

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it's ouse what are the things that
like in your definition, when would you

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when would you go to web assembly? And when do you basically when is

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it a right call to reach for
web assembly? Because it's a tool,

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and like other tools, you need
to know what is the best place to

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use it so that you don't over
use it, and also what are the

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things that you cannot do with lab
assembly so that we also know when we

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definitely should not reach to it.
Well, if you need some don't manipulation,

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then you should not use this website. But it's definitely small niche actually

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for applications that should use web assembly, And if you are developing a video

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game or something like large language model
or some ou the editing software, then

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performance of JavaScript will not be enough
for you. And I mean maybe ninety

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percent of or maybe ninety five percent
of web applications don't need to addssent,

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and those five percent that needed,
they are definitely needed. So yeah,

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it's a rare case, but when
you need it, it's nice to Okay,

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makes sense, And in your article
you even gave some more specific examples

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of when you use it that I
think are really interesting for people to think

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about some real world applications to it. So you mentioned complicated calculations, cryptography,

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even large language models, like if
you want to really run your large

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large langue which model on the device
instead of just making a remote API call,

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you could technically do that by importing
the the instructions for the LLLM as

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the web assembly module. Also image
and video editing, games and so on.

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So I think those are thinking about
those examples. Maybe brings people closer

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to scenarios where they in the past
we're trying to reach for something and didn't

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do what, So that would be
a good application for rub assembly. Yeah,

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and it has some downsides like be
just one size of the compilot model.

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Sometimes it's few megabades, sometimes it's
fifty megabytes, so some applications just

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cannot afford wait, while fifty megabytes
web model will be downloaded before step as

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an interacting rech users, So it's
one of the down sides. Yeah you

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mentioned yep, Okay, that makes
a ton of sense. All right,

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Now let's talk more specifically about Angular
and web assembly because generally speaking, well,

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first off, anything that we can
do with regular native front end code

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we can also do in Angler.
But generally Angler has this very unique way

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of doing things. It's a very
opinionated framework. So do we have any

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different ways of importing and executing web
assembly code in the context of the Angular

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framework, Like, does the Angular
framework recommends any best practices or even enforces

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a way for us to deal with
web assembly, or is the way that

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we deal with web assembly code in
Angular just how it is done with native

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front and code. I mean,
right now we are closer to the second

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option. Now we in Angular can
in our Angular applications we can import web

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assembly models as they are imported in
native in Vanila JavaScript. And maybe a

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little bit later, maybe on the
next week, full request that was merged

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will be released in the next version
of Angular, and then we can import

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us models directly from Angular code using
just world import. And it has beneaded.

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It's much easier to do so you
don't need a few lines of code.

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If you can easier, you can
h import model in their way.

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But downside of it right now is
it will be imported without types definitions,

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so it will be like any everywhere
and unknown everywhere. So yeah, it's

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more safe and not so much complicated
too and more h I know. Oh,

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it's more set to use the approach
that is described in my article right

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now. But with the time browsers
will improve plementations and then you can use

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us models inside Angular without and big
types without any additional tools, and it

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will be awesome great. Another downside, just to make it clear for the

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audience, is that currently the PR
that was merged, well besides the fact

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that you would have to be on
the later's version of Angular because it was

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merged on version eighteen right, so
you'll probably actually be released in eighteen dot

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one, so you would have to
be on the later version. And currently

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I don't know if they plan on
somehow making it work with zone JS in

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the future, but right now it
is clearly stated on that PR description that

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it will only work if your application
is not relying on zone JS, which

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I believe ninety nine percent of applications
are. Unfortunately, still rely on zone

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JS because the experimental the experimental zone
zoneless APIs for Angular were very recently introduced

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and we have had no no incentives
to really use them on application. On

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production applications, we have actually been
been disincentivized of using the experimental zoneless API

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because it is so experimental. So
I think most applications in production won't be

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able to rely on that extra sugar
that Angler added to make it easier to

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integrate with web assembly, but they
can still integrated in the regular way just

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using regular front endcode. Yeah,
it's only because top level weight is not

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supported. Because of that, you
need a zoneless application. Yeah. Well,

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I know a couple of applications working
production zones already, but it's not

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the majority of course, just a
few of them in the world I think.

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But yeah, if you are going
to add the vast model to your

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application, it actually means that most
of the time, it means that you

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are creating a new application. If
you're creating a new application right now,

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I would recommend you goes on less
and even if you don't use that assembly

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in that application, I recurrently goes
onless. Oh that's really interesting. I

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know that This is not the main
topic of this episode, but I have

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not seen any application at least of
production applications onless yet, and I have

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also not talked to anyone that has
had production applications zoneless. So if you

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don't mind us getting sidetracked a bit, what makes you recommend that, Because

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from what I understand, the Angler
docs themselves are saying that this is very

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experimental and you should not rely on
this technology yet it's not stable. But

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are you confident that it is stable
enough to use in production applications? As

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always happens with experimental things, it
depends. It depends on what third part

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of the libraries you use, and
some of them are not quite radio to

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be zoneless. But to my surprise, many angular libraries actually behave quite well

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in zone less applications, especially if
they are written with on push only strategy.

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And if your application is written using
only on push strategy, that will

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be trivial to switch to the zoneless
application, and it takes just maybe a

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couple of days to migrate medium size
application it is, unless it's not that

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scary. But some libraries, yeah, some libraries might not work with Thomas

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gotcha. That's interesting. So it's
not just a matter of you wanting to

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use it and starting a project from
scratch. You also have to think about

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if the libraries you want to rely
on for your project we work for it,

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right, because maybe you write your
code in such a way that we'll

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be fine, but perhaps the libraries
you want to import are not going to

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work. Yeah, exactly, that's
the right now. It's a main pain

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point is thons gotcha? Okay,
okay, that that is very interesting to

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know all right. Now, heading
back to web assembly, how does the

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tread work with web assemblies specifically,
because we have been thought that JavaScript is

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runs in a single thread and whenever
you want to parallelize work without blocking the

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rendering, there are multiple different technologies
that different techniques you can use to do

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that. So, for example,
one of the most powerful ones being service

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workers or just web workers in general, because that way you can have your

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code running in a separate thread.
But how does web assemblies specifically behave If

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I import web assembly code and I
execute a function from it, is it

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going to execute on the main thread
or is it automatically going to be executed

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in a separate thread of any main
tread? And if you don't want to

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create lugs during execution of heavy code, it's better to allow it to use

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an service worker or web worker.
Then it will work in a separate tread

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and heavy computations will be executed without
well blocking UI. Great, so we

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can also import webal assembly code in
web workers. Yeah, awesome, gotcha.

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So basically, if we want to
parallelize things in a different thread without

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blocking the main one, the approach
is still web workers. And if you

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need something to run faster, not
necessarily run in a different thread, but

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just run way faster than you can
go with web assembly. And then if

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you want, if you need both
things, then you can just use web

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assembly inside a web worker exactly cool. And one one specification is if your

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task involves a lot of numbers,
a lot of numbers crunching, then it

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is cool to you. It is
a good use of web assembly. If

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you are operating with strings with text, then sometimes JavaScript might do it faster

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because overhead of colin web assembly.
It's not known in web assembly is awesome

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for tasks based on depending of numbers
calculating the numbers like drawing some things with

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audio video, but strings text is
a different thing and it's sometimes maybe maybe

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better to check if JavaScript is good
enough for that before you start implementing it

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in brass or sea share. Interesting
with regards to this overhead of web assembly,

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is it an overhead just on in
it or on all function calls?

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It's so all function calls. It's
it's not huge, like it's not a

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few seconds. It's maybe fifty milli
seconds. But I mean, if you're

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trying to save every every seconds,
then some tasks should be done inside JavaScript

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and some tasks should be done in
web assembly. I mean, if you

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want to just create mt five hash, there is no use for web assembly

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because JASP will do it faster.
But if you need to create some video

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game where you can zoom in and
zoom out, then jascript has no chance

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to do it faster than web makes
sense. Now, we also spoke about

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the bundle size right, like sometimes
you can have web assembling modules that are

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just way too large. With JavaScript, we have several techniques to reduce bundle

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sizes with web assembly. Do we
also have similar techniques? Yeah? There

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are. Well, I was working
with Rust and there's great too. Wasn't

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park and OpEd that help with optimization
of wasn't model sizes and interest itself.

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Some compiler figurations might help it binary
size and yeah, general recommendation is use

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fewer generics, use fewer strings for
matching, and well you're going to find

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more of them by links in my
article because it's not the short things to

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explain, okay, And in your
article the link that we have to shrink

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was code size is specific to Rust? Was right. So I was wondering

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because when we compile something to have
assembly, it kind of loses the reference

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of whether it was written in Rust
or c sharp or whatever, because it's

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almost like, correct me if I'm
wrong. At least you have a lot

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more experience with web assembly than I
do. But my understanding of web assembly,

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at least conceptually, has always been
similar to what Java does, in

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the sense that Java compiles to byte
code. I think that's the right term.

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And then this is what it uses
to be platform agnostic, right,

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so that it can run in different
operating systems. And I always understood that

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web assembly did something similar. So
if I wrote the same code and c

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or in rest but compiled it in
web assembly, I would not have any

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references to the original REST or C
code. Of course, they would be

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different in the final compiled results,
just because C and rest are going to

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compile the same the same function in
different ways. But the web Assembly code

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itself is almost like a universal language
and not specific to rest or see.

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So I was wondering if that specific
tool for shrinking was code size that seems

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to be at least from a quick
glance, very specific to Rust code written

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in web Assembly. I wonder if
that that package the library also works for

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shrinking web Assembly code that was not
originally written in Rust exactly because of the

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reason you mentioned. After you got
web assembly binary file, you cannot do

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anything you're going to shrink its size. There are actually two steps. First

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is you are compiling from your language
like C Sharp or rest inter special set

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of instructions. And after that this
code really compiled in the binary. And

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on the first step you can kind
of if you're super expert, you can

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manually edit the code generated from compiler
from your rasters Sharp code and maybe optimize

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something. But for example, I'm
not that could and after you created the

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by inner file, that's it and
you can do anything. As far as

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I know. So all the code
size optimization tools they are bound to compilers

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it's still ANG or scripting or Rust
itself. They optimize the size using knowledge

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about the language. So it's it's
a task that compiler does, so it's

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bound to a language. Gotcha.
Okay, So if I understood correctly that

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specific technique of reducing or drinking the
web assembly size of your Rust code,

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this is it is not like you
run a command on the generated web assembly.

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It's more like you run the command
on the Rust code before it's turned

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into web assembly. Is that yeah, you're kind of yeah, yeah,

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exactly, You give some instructions to
the compiler. That's how it works.

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Okay, Okay, that makes a
ton of sense. All right, So,

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IVENI, we've been able to package
a ton of content in just twenty

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seven minutes. I wonder if there
are any specific topics that I haven't brought

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up but you feel are really interesting
to bring up to the audience. Well,

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maybe about the Rust itself. I
mean, nowadays, if you write

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in Typescript and you want to try
Rust, I encourage you to do this

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because if you write in typescript and
you'll follow immutability approach all the time,

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and you describe types everywhere, you
never use any and then you're almost ready

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to use rust actually, because it's
quite close to rust code, to be

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fair, and it will not take
a lot of time to learn it.

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If you are used to strict typing
to follow it to use immutable data whereas

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possible, then as I said,
it will be easier for you to start

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writing interest great. And what with
regards to the syntax itself, I mean

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you're saying that it would be really
easy. I assume that is because if

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you're written very strict typescript, then
you're already used to not specifically the syntax

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of rusty. It may be very
different from how we do how we write

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code in typescript, but I think
the concept, I think what you mean

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is the concept of always being very
specific with your types. Is that it?

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Or do you also mean that the
syntax of rust is also pretty close

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to typescript? Not that close?
But yeah, what I mentioned is kind

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of rules inside the language, the
limitations. Typescript brings some limitations with types

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and they are to help us,
and REST does the same. It has

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some limitations. Maybe sometimes it will
fight with borrow chain care, but it

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exists to help you not to damage
here mental health, and because people who

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write in Typescript are kind of used
to such limitations, it will be easier

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for them to meet such limitations in
prest gotcha makes sense? Makes sense?

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And what we in regards to the
syntax itself, do you believe Let's assume

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a somewhat experienced Typescript developer, Let's
say at least a plain level Typescript developer,

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his experiences, his or her experiences
have been mostly with web development.

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And now this person wants to learn
Rust. How long Let's assume that this

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person is like fully focused on that
that learning journey. They're not bouncing time

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between college and work. They just
literally pause their life to focus on that.

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How much time do you believe it
would take for this person pectitiously to

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go from zero to at least productive
interest. If you wants to create,

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for example, API for your back
in for your website, then in six

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weeks you will be productive and in
eight ten weeks you will get your API

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ready. That's how it was in
well with me and with a couple of

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other guys I know. And it's
easier when you get help from the community.

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And Rust has very very nice community. They help a lot, and

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don't be afraid to ask ready to
our slack or discord. People are very

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ready to help you. Yes,
that's very good to know. Okay,

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all right, so I don't think
I have any other major questions, at

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least nothing that I can think of. So if you don't have anything else

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you'd like to bring up, I
think you can start wrapping up. Yeah,

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that's right. Okay, all right, let's just do some quick promos.

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Let's start with you. Do you
have anything particular you would like to

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00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:48,319
promote. It doesn't even have to
be related to REST or rather assembly.

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No, but well, read mind
madn blog. You'll find some maybe interesting

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articles not only about and rest,
by about other topics in Angular such as

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signals, change detection and other things
and zongless awesome. I have just sent

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a link to your article in the
comment section. Not everyone we'll see that

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00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,839
because you might be in a in
a player that doesn't support comments. But

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if you're watching us from YouTube,
then there's a comment section there you should

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00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:39,240
see the link. Otherwise, if
you're just listening to us, then you

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can look up on Google as powering
Angular with Rust, and you will most

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00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:57,319
likely see if needs article be the
first result on Google. Okay, on

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my end, I'm just going to
promote the two companies that are use the

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show. So there are many other
podcasts produced by Top and Doves. There

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00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:13,279
is even podcasts about Ruby about I
believe they reactivated the podcast about Freelancing.

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00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:20,640
Also JavaScript Jabber as a more generalized
web development podcast, so highly recommend checking

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00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,519
that out if you're interesting in other
technologies. Besides Angular, there's definitely a

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00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,480
show inside the Top and Doves universe
of podcasts that is going to be what

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00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:37,839
you're looking for. And also Onvoid
if you are a company or know someone

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00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:45,920
that is looking for either outsourced professionals
to complete a project or a staff augmentation

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00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:52,279
just to extend your current team.
Onvoid offers design and software development work,

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00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,480
and the most interesting piece is that
instead of just paying by the hour,

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00:33:55,599 --> 00:34:00,839
which is what most agencies offer,
they have a much more client friendly business

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00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:07,000
model where the client only pays after
the work is delivered and approved, and

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00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:13,519
the costs are estimated upfront, so
you don't have to worry about overtime or

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00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:22,840
the quality not being what you expected
because the costs are defined beforehand, and

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00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,679
if you're not happy with the quality
of the delivered work, you can just

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00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,719
request changes until you approve it,
and it only becomes bilable after your approval.

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00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:34,880
So it's a very interesting model.
If you're interested in that, just

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00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,559
check out you and void dot com
on void to learn more and contact them.

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00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,320
All right, So that's going to
be it for me. It Caani,

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thank you so much for your time. At least to me personally,

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I think this was an extremely valuable
episode. This web assembly is something that

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feels too hard, feels autograsp for
most front and developers, but it doesn't

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have to be. And I'm glad
that we were able to break down some

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of the myths regarding the complexity of
doing it. So thank you very much

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for that, and feel free to
come back anytime. Yeah, thank you.

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It was very interesting and good luck
with the next episodes. Would be

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nice to listen there. Thank you, Thank you very much. All right,

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folks, thank you for sticking up
until the end, and I will

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see you in the next one.