WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:11.279 Hey, y'all, welcome to Coming Out Pod. Okay, today's queer root. 2 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:16.879 Shout out. Shout out to you if your queer root is Faith from 3 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:24.120 Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was an extremely formative show for 4 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:30.480 many of us, one of the very first queer female characters ever to be 5 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:35.000 shown on television. Now, that character was not Faith. That character was 6 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:41.399 Willow, but Buffy known for having a wide variety of characters for people to 7 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:47.479 have obsessive crushes on, and Faith was like the bad girl of the show. 8 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:52.320 Faith was played by Eliza I think it's Doushku. Doushku, I don't 9 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:59.000 know. She famously also played a very like how is this character not queer 10 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.000 character? In Bring It On? But yeah, I want to honor her 11 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.959 for the work she has done throughout her career for burgeon and queer women to 12 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:14.640 perhaps find their way. Shout out to you if she is your queer root. 13 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.159 Y'all. Okay, I want to welcome my guest today. I'm very 14 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:25.239 excited to speak to this person. I am here with author and librettist Leah 15 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:30.000 lax Hi. Leiah Hi to you. Excited to be here. I am 16 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.840 so I'm very excited to speak to you. So you have quite a resume. 17 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:40.439 So, first off, Leah is the author of the first gay memoir 18 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:45.239 to ever come out of the Jewish ultra orthodox world. That book is called 19 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.719 Uncovered, How I left his cidic life and finally came home. We will 20 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.640 certainly talk a little bit about that, and that is a huge portion of 21 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:59.920 Leah's coming out story. But also Leah has a book coming out very short 22 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:04.239 on March twenty eighth. That book is called Not from Here The Song of 23 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.199 America. Uh. And also, so we said, or I said, 24 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:13.840 librettis up top, there's there's opera happening. There is an opera of your 25 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:15.759 book. How do you want to speak to that at all or like how 26 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.360 that works? That's we'll get there, We'll get there, We'll get there. 27 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.759 Okay, Yeah, I'm just like, I'm I'm I'm amazed at the 28 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:30.080 breath of your work. I guess. But yeah, Leah, do you 29 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.759 first off, as I always ask my guests, how do you identify as 30 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:40.719 a gender queer lesbian? Ooh, I love that and very happily, Yeah, 31 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:44.439 do you want to talk it all about what? Because gender queer is 32 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:49.120 one of those terms that I feel like people potentially use to mean different things 33 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.439 depending on the person, and like, do you do you want to speak 34 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:57.439 at all about about what gender queer means to you specifically? You know, 35 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.759 since I was a small child, it starts with dreams. For me, 36 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:07.319 I would always dream that I was variously male or female. It never mattered, 37 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:14.719 and it varied in my dreams and in the daytime. It seemed perfectly 38 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:20.520 normal, uh normal for me as a child, and always I never thought 39 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:27.439 twice about it, but always noticed that I didn't understand the gender divide the 40 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:32.680 way people the way had people excuse me address it. I related very intuitively 41 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:40.759 and naturally and normally to men and women equally. It all seemed to be 42 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:54.280 a huge overlap for me and I being having grown up before any variations and 43 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:00.680 sexuality were in the media, before there was a vocal tabulary for such things. 44 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.639 It was. It took time until later when I went, oh, 45 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:09.199 that's me, of course, And it was a simple thing like that, 46 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:14.080 because you know, the jenjaquare aspect of my life was something that was always 47 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.120 very clear to me. I just didn't it was time before I had a 48 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:23.199 name for it. I can't emphasize how much how great it was to come 49 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:30.480 into a world full of words for who we are, because at first all 50 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.399 I heard was heterosexual people giving too many names that all meant oh, they're 51 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:40.079 not like us, right, We were the diverse ones, we were the 52 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:44.040 different ones. Wait, I don't feel different, you know. So there 53 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.920 was an edge to it for me until I kind of landed and said, 54 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.560 no, there's a flip side to labels, and that's helping to put a 55 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:56.759 name to who you are, maybe not almost necessary, but comforting in a 56 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:00.360 way too. I am I feel you very much on that, and I've 57 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.040 said so many times on this podcast. Yeah, that is the thing about 58 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.759 labels. It's like it's very dependent on the person. Some people I know 59 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.160 can find them confining or restriction, but then those of us, those of 60 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.439 us who are perhaps more type A personalities, they can be very comforting because 61 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.199 it's like, ah, I can put a name to this thing that I 62 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:25.040 feel and that you know, that makes me feel like more settled in my 63 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.800 identity. Now that I have a name, I can pin to it. 64 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.600 So yeah, and part of that is an age thing. When I wrote 65 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.959 my first book, the Memoir that You refer to uncovered. I traveled all 66 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:42.439 over and I spoke a lot of universities and sometimes gender studies programs and as 67 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:47.399 a graduate programs. And it was in places like that where I was too 68 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:55.399 often approached by young people who said, what do you do if you don't 69 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.720 fit the label? And you thought you did? And it was pain It 70 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:04.879 was feeling entrapped that I heard because they had they had come out under a 71 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:11.199 certain label in an environment that was very label oriented before they really know the 72 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:15.360 NATO cells. And also people change, it doesn't lave room for change. 73 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.759 And it made me aware of how of the you know, of the negative 74 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.399 side of labels. I say, take the good part, but don't let 75 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:28.480 it trap you just laugh about it. So well, God, that's perfectly 76 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.360 said, perfectly said. Yeah, I co sign all of that, And 77 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.800 it doesn't matter what the hell people think. Just be yourself. I mean, 78 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:40.040 it's hard, but because it's just hard, but so what, it's 79 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:46.399 also glory glorious. I mean it's worth it. Yeah, if anyone I 80 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.399 think that your life backs up that statement certainly, Just so that I want 81 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.759 to like dive right in because I know we have just so much to talk 82 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.360 about, so yeah, where, No, where did it all start for 83 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:05.000 you? I was born mid continent of North Texas, Uh, to a 84 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:12.680 Jewish family, very assimilated, uh, politically passionate, liberal Jewish family, 85 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.839 grew up in public schools Texas, in Texas. So was that two contradictions, 86 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:21.199 like both being Jewish in Texas and being Yeah they were very well yeah, 87 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.639 okay, particularly in that time, particularly in that city. Yeah, 88 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:33.759 oh yes, but uh, there there was enough of a divide that the 89 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:38.920 Jewish community was pretty insular. It was kind of like growing up in a 90 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.959 bubble and in public school, I just hung out with the you know, 91 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.800 with the archy kind of group, and I felt I was fine with it. 92 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:54.759 Uh So I didn't. I don't. I don't think I really had 93 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:59.279 a name for myself at the time. But I also had the sense of 94 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.959 as a move to adolescents, like who are we really? Like? Who 95 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.000 am I what? And I understand now that that that's because I had no 96 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.720 knowledge of family history. You know, all four of my grandparents, like 97 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:16.160 everybody my age who's Jewish in this country in your case it would be probably 98 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.800 your great grandparents, but they were all they all came from Europe, some 99 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.759 kind of came pre war, some came post war. People to understand that 100 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.600 half of the Jewish population in the world as the United States today, and 101 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:35.480 that's and they're virtually all descended from refugees. When I was born until adulthood, 102 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:39.120 they were ancient Jewish communities all over North Via Africa and Europe. All 103 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:45.360 of those either the people were murdered or after Israel was established, they were 104 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:52.039 literally expelled chased out of their countries in North Africa, and the US always 105 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:58.600 opened their doors. So we're here. Even being half of the world's population, 106 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.559 we're only two percent of the you know, we're a tiny minority. 107 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.960 But that being said, I was just saying that to say it's not that 108 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.799 common that all four of my grandparents were refugees. I never thought of them 109 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.879 as refugees. They were settled, safe, middle class people. You know, 110 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:18.159 it would have been laughable to say that, but it's you know, 111 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.679 that's because I didn't know the story of their coming, of their writer, 112 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.480 or what they went through to get there. Yeah, that was the watchword 113 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.399 of my family was like everything's fine. We don't talk about it, Like, 114 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.919 yeah, right, I think that I you know, it was kind 115 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.080 of a dreamer and artsy thinker, a budding writer, and I was going, 116 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.799 well, who are we? Where are we really fum like? And 117 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.360 it made me much more susceptible. When I met members of the only evangelical 118 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:56.159 Hasidic group in history and who sort of kind of recruited me, I was 119 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:01.159 wide open. I think at some point, I think I fell in for 120 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.480 two reasons. One is that it was as if I was reclaiming everything that 121 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:09.720 my family had lost, you know, a society that was ours and truly 122 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:15.559 ours. But the other piece is that I was this gener queer, lesbian 123 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:20.039 kid in a hat world without any labels, and I watched all my girlfriends 124 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.960 change on me. They became they were growing up all of a sudden, 125 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.639 they were all fluttery and putting on makeup in the school bathroom, and I 126 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.840 was going guys, guys like who are you? You know? And the 127 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:37.399 enormous social pressure to fall into that high school dating world where I just didn't 128 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.360 get it, and all I felt was very, very insecure, like what 129 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:48.320 are the rules here? How can you be a woman like they seem to 130 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.559 know? I didn't know because I couldn't do it intuitively. I went into 131 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.559 Hasidic world and immediately, like from day one, I was told this is 132 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.679 how a woman walks, this is how a woman does this, this is 133 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.399 how this speaks, this is how a woman lives. This is what you 134 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.919 know, and all you had to do. It was like somebody had to 135 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.440 be a bulleted list and all I had to do was follow it. And 136 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.919 then I was in the thick of things. I wasn't marginal anymore at all. 137 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:16.120 I was completely accepted. No, I didn't. I didn't right. 138 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.919 I didn't see it as going in the closet. I saw it as, 139 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.840 Oh, you mean you love me. I don't feel weird and different, 140 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.080 and I'm not looking at you and going who are you? Who am I? 141 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.240 How do I fit here? That's all I understood at that point. 142 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:35.080 I was sixteen years old. I think it until you said that did not 143 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:41.440 fully understand or maybe did not at all understand the link between queerness and being 144 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:46.919 drawn to that world because they seem on the surface like so at odds. 145 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:52.279 But like when you're saying, not having that intuitive understanding of what a woman 146 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:58.159 is supposed to be once she reaches puberty or like whatever age we decide girls 147 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.679 start wearing make up, been caring about boys like not knowing that and then 148 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.080 like you're saying literally having like an instruction manual to follow and less emphasis I'm 149 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:16.360 sure put on presentation and sexuality and all of that because it's it's don't do 150 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.799 that is sort of the instruction. So like that must have been such yeah, 151 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.600 like a comfort and so this was so just to clarify you were raised, 152 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.879 would you say reform Jewish? Was that your family's okay? And what 153 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:35.919 is evangelical? I've never heard those two terms together, and you said the 154 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:43.200 only Oh, it's the branch of Hussyden called Lebovich. Oh, okay, 155 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:50.720 okay, they do, okay. All the other groups do not invite new 156 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.440 members and they don't Okay. These guys have sent emissaries all over the world 157 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.840 to you know, they say it to bring Jews back to jude but to 158 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.720 their brand only, and they've also converted many people. Okay. So it's 159 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:11.120 the sort of following the missionary model as popularized. Okay, Okay, So 160 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.039 you were sixteen and this is appealing for all of the reasons we've spoken to. 161 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:22.200 What did your family feel about this? Oh? Now, frantic, 162 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.879 yeah, furious, grieving, yeah, but I was you know, it's 163 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:33.000 I was young and idealistic. They offered me the world that you know, 164 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:39.360 the religion promises you know everything you do whole, it will be holy and 165 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:41.480 it will matter in the world. It will change the world. Light a 166 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.600 candle will change the world. You know, you'll be kissed by God. 167 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.679 I was pretty lonely. And community, yeah, I mean such a like 168 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.559 a built in community, right, And it's another aspect of being, you 169 00:13:54.559 --> 00:14:01.440 know, being the odd one out section in Churci's sexuality in a world where 170 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:07.159 even if someone else is gay, they're usually not telling you. So I 171 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.720 had this instant community. Yeah, and let's not leave this out. I 172 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:20.639 don't think fundamentalists and groups as a whole. I don't think what I did 173 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.080 is unique to me, because fundamentalist groups as a whole, they're pretty homo 174 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:31.279 erotic, right. They divide up. All the guys are together, all 175 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.879 the women are together, and they they tend to be really together. They 176 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:43.600 tend to be like to be arm in arm, and you know, the 177 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.399 women help each other constantly with everything, and they were very affectionate the same 178 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.519 thing with the man. I saw men kiss one another because it was very 179 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:58.320 European in their minds. You know. Yeah, and they dance, certainly, 180 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.360 they dance together. The men dance, yes and yes, and the 181 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.000 women dances with them. Yeah, you're right, it is, Oh my 182 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:11.559 god. And had you spoken at all to either anyone in your family or 183 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:18.679 anyone of like the group when you were sort of first being approached by them 184 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:24.080 about your sexuality or gender. I wasn't really all math you were doing in 185 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:28.159 your own head at that point. I didn't have a name for it. 186 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:33.159 No, it's sure, you know the fact that I was head over heels 187 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:39.840 and with my girlfriend like it's like I think, because that kind of touch 188 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.960 was forbidden. It was just stuff I mooned about in my diary. But 189 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:50.399 it all felt of course, it all felt natural normal, And you don't 190 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.600 put a label unless the world is doing it. You don't put a label 191 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:58.559 to what feels completely natural, completely normal. You don't go and seek out 192 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:03.320 what's wrong with me or what's different about me. I was that sort of 193 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:11.000 innocent. Yeah, were you and your girlfriend at the time hiding everything? 194 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.039 Go? What did you did the two of you talk about any fear? 195 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.279 She was sure what was going? Oh no, she was straight. She 196 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.799 just enjoyed. Okay, so she enjoyed my friend, female friend, okay, 197 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.320 and she flirted with the same world, and then she kind of flitted 198 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.879 away and I never saw her again. Oh my god. Okay, so 199 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.840 this was a unrequited or at least okay, okay, okay, okay, 200 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.799 oh god, okay. So that's just the genesis, right, So I'm 201 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:47.279 back right there. Yeah, it's a whirl. You know. I arrived 202 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.919 there. I buy the clothes, I walked the walk, I talked the 203 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:53.039 dog. I conveniently graduated high school year early and went off to college. 204 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:56.879 I was out from under my parents. And then I really dove in and 205 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.120 I kind of back in and I'm like, all right, guys, you 206 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:07.400 promised me this heady scholarship that I find fascinating and all the spiritual worlds. 207 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.079 And then they start telling me, well, you attained those things by getting 208 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:17.119 married and having babies. That's how you attained your spiritual purpose in life, 209 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:23.880 not by not really or I had chosen to ignore it. Let's say, 210 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.839 okay, sure you know I had chosen let's call it selective deafness. And 211 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:34.079 I did. I was there was a matchmaker. I was matched up with 212 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:40.599 someone that we were engaged when I was eighteen and married a month after I 213 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:45.640 was nineteen. Birth control was strictly forbidden. I had seven children in a 214 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:52.960 ten year period, and I adored them, and life became just setting my 215 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.119 sights in the morning for the evening, and it was no longer about me. 216 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.119 It was take care of these children, them up in a good and 217 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:07.160 safe place, give them both a physical and a spiritual richness, I hoped, 218 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.240 and keep them from killing each other, and make sure they're fed, 219 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.519 you know. And all those tasks were too much for me, too much 220 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.440 for one person, right, yeah, oh my god at night, like 221 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:27.799 starting that young, like absolutely, and in terms of your was were you 222 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:34.480 at this point just like blinders on ignoring anything about sexuality and gender because there's 223 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:40.640 literally no time totally Yeah, okay, I mean that the emphasis is completely 224 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.480 off it like that. You know, when you're married, you're you're shouldered 225 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.279 a shoulder with a job to do. You know, it's not about you, 226 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.039 it's not about your relationship. Yes, And there were rules also about 227 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.160 sexuality, like half the month he wasn't allowed to touch me, which I 228 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:56.039 didn't mind, right, So yeah, I'm sure. I mean sleeping in 229 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.640 separate beds and everything during that time. So really, oh okay, I 230 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.880 didn't know that. I didn't know that every husele of coum has two beds 231 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:10.000 in the bedroom. So hello, And it was lonely. I found it 232 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:11.920 lonely. I didn't want to be alone. Old I didn't want to be 233 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:17.279 alone. Loneliness kept creeping up. Anyway, I want to say, I 234 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.839 want to jump to the end and say, after thirty thirty years, like 235 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.720 that, thirty years, I fell in love. And it's really because I 236 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.319 decided to allow myself to fall in love. I went through a series of 237 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:37.279 changes, a couple of crises. One is that I got married, that 238 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:40.680 I had, I got pregnant one time too many and became absolutely driven to 239 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.960 have an abortion, and I did. And once I did it, once 240 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.119 I faced that I would break all the rules if it was necessary. Turned 241 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.720 out not to be necessary, but I knew I would. Then I owned 242 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.799 my body for the first time. After that, I allowed myself to fall 243 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.880 in love, which I did. She was a great transit object. But 244 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.119 I woke up and I actually took the You know, when you live in 245 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:08.480 that life as a woman, you don't have a I didn't have a spine, 246 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:11.640 I didn't have a voice, I was allowed to speak in public. 247 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.759 So thirty years and then I woke up. I fell in love, I 248 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:21.839 woke up. I finally spoke up, and I got a divorce. At 249 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.279 this point, my oldest kids were grown. Most of my kids were in 250 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:32.000 adolescents or entering adolescence. All of them were only I think three or four 251 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:37.960 of them were still living at home, and I lived in Houston. At 252 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.880 that point, could not get custody, not as a lesbian who had had 253 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.519 an affair, who left my husband. There was not a chance in the 254 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:51.599 world. And so I moved out and I had to start my life again, 255 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:57.000 not defined by children, trying desperately to at least be somewhere in my 256 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:03.119 kids lives. Yeah, I started all that breaking. Oh my god. 257 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.440 The relationship fell apart very soon, so I was really on my own. 258 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:12.519 Oh my god. Okay, do you feel like, in terms of when 259 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:22.079 you say you you fell in love, was this a totally organic slash accidental 260 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:29.119 relationship? It was sure. Sure, it's total crazy lust and it was 261 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.960 great. I have no regrets. That sounds fantastic. I could use one 262 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.559 of those. But but but do you feel like it was like you were 263 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:42.079 looking for something to assist you in getting out at that point? Was it 264 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.960 okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, Oh my god, 265 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:48.799 it was me daring to act out for the first time. Yeah, 266 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:53.799 it was having a delayed adolescence, it was it was all of the above, 267 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.599 we call it, right, Oh my goodness, and of people they're 268 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.839 coming out is like that, right, it's just crazy, you know, 269 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:11.920 risk taking, delayed adolescent thing somehow we all have to go through. And 270 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.440 were you also cut off from your your family at that point? Like I 271 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.039 had the best coming out in the world because I called my mother and I 272 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.519 said, Mom, I'm leaving him and I'm leaving this life. And by 273 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.440 the way, I'm a lesbian. And she yelled at the phone, Oh 274 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:32.160 my god, you're coming home. Oh god, God's incredible. Oh, 275 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.640 it doesn't get any better than that. So yeah, yeah, So you 276 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:41.599 had managed to stay and even throughout that thirty year period, arm's length, 277 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.359 all those years arms length, But she welcomed you back like they were always 278 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:56.480 always waiting. Yeah, all right, so think Kamy Schmidt, remember Kamy 279 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:02.359 Schmidt. Somehow? Oh, it was just series where this girl was like 280 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.839 locked into a fundamentalist cult and she's suddenly rested on the world, and the 281 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:12.160 series is about how she's in the world, but she's socially unaware in every 282 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.319 aspect you can imagine, of course. Yeah, I mean it's the Little 283 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:19.039 Mermaid. It's tale as old as time as this, Like, yeah, 284 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:23.079 then Winkler or something thirty years like I stepped back in the world. I 285 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.359 might have grown up there, but I didn't get to grow up all right. 286 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:30.200 I turned into an adult, and how cynic grown I come out. 287 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:34.240 I went to graduate school, but really I was totally out of step. 288 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:41.519 I was doing things like watching you know, two and three movies every every 289 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.079 night, trying to catch up with like classics, you know, until I 290 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.160 figured out I'd never catch up that I'll always be at a step I was. 291 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:52.559 I didn't know how to I didn't know how to order food in a 292 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.599 restaurant. I didn't know how to figure tax and tip. I didn't know 293 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:57.799 how to do my taxes. I didn't know how to pay my insurance. 294 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:02.400 I didn't know how to I didn't know anything right, and it was completely 295 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:07.680 on my own. Two years into this where I'm somewhat back on my feet 296 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.720 but feeling like a stranger, you know who wouldn't go home, or I 297 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.680 should say, an immigrant who didn't really get our society quite yet, but 298 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:26.640 would seemed to be outwardly functioning. I got a cold call from the assistant 299 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:32.319 director to Houston Grand Opera. Now I skipped why this happened. Yeah, 300 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:44.279 I did a a small I did a photographic project while I was still in 301 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.359 the graduate school with a friend who's a really good photographer, and I had 302 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.119 this idea that I should interview the people while she's taking pictures of them, 303 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:55.799 so that she could catch the feelings on their faces. She was a really 304 00:24:55.799 --> 00:25:00.880 good portrait photographer. And then we created the exhibit with quotes them with real, 305 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:06.759 like really powerful quotes, you know, really sort of you can't make 306 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.839 this shit up kind of quotes. And then we made a little exhibit catalog 307 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.799 and somebody gave this catalog to the director of Houston Grant Opera. It's a 308 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:19.559 whole story how that happened. But they, of course, adults to be 309 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:26.400 wanted to make They wanted to make opera real and alive and about our world 310 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.599 and accessible to people and not you know, high brow blue hair YANKI said, 311 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.599 srue things out of you know, European courts, you know, yeah, 312 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.799 king, yeah, right right, we think of yeah exactly. And 313 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:48.039 the director had an idea to make an opera about immigrants because it had just 314 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.400 come out that Houston was the most culturally diverse city in North America. It 315 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.160 had surpassed New York City ten years previous. I didn't know that, Okay. 316 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:03.640 All the major organizations that do refugee resettlement have major offices in Houston, 317 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:08.519 so it's one of four cities the United States that are resettlement centers. Plus 318 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.440 the constant flowover excuse me for saying this our southern border, not fifteen miles 319 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:21.480 from where I live. Plus the fact that all the major oil corporations have 320 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.559 North American headquarters in this city. And you can imagine the many magnets that 321 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:32.279 were pulling people into this city. Sure, okay, okay. And it 322 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:37.279 was amazing and continues to be amazing for this city because it made us economically 323 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.160 one of the most robust city in the world. I mean constant influx of 324 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:49.240 labor, of talent, of you name it. So he had this idea 325 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:56.240 to reflect all these communities. We had the second largest Vietnamese community in the 326 00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.359 United States, an enormous community from Africa. The largest of them was from 327 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:06.279 Nigeria because of all the oil in Nigeria, the connection with Shell and it 328 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:11.759 just goes on and on. Yeah. Right, so he was together a 329 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.880 little more, right, So he was looking for someone who would be willing 330 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.359 to do this and thinking it might be a long term term project. They 331 00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:23.119 weren't going to It wasn't exclusive, but it might be convenient if the person 332 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:30.440 already lived here. And that's when somebody showed him the little exhibit catalog and 333 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.119 he said, here's a person who listens to people, and that might help. 334 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.759 That's about all I know as to why they called me. But I'm 335 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.839 telling you I got a cold call here. I am. You know this 336 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:48.599 this stranger out of step, stranger who's like five minutes out of grad school 337 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.440 and two years out of a base, you know, out of a completely 338 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.279 different society. And I pick up the phone. It's assistant director of the 339 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:00.119 Houston Grand Opera, which at the time was a number two company in the 340 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:06.440 country. Has put major operas into you know, like the American canon, 341 00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:11.480 you know, like Nixon and China and uh Doctor. These are operas that 342 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:18.759 like were born here saying my name is Sue Elliott, and we're interested in 343 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.640 you writing an opera for us. And I was like, who is this? 344 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:26.279 You know? I was like this, like I was sure it was 345 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:33.799 a prank, call very specific prank, because it's a frank And she explained, 346 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.640 and I kind of utter shock when uh, I'll think about it. 347 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.799 I had just gotten a small grant that was going to allow me to spend 348 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:51.359 one whole month staying home writing the memoir I wanted to write, and this 349 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:56.559 interrupted it. Yeah, And besides which, I didn't know have a clue 350 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.559 how to do what. I knew nothing about opera, nothing about writing for 351 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:02.720 music. I didn't have a clue how to do what they wanted. I 352 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.000 got a hold of a friend and made him meet me for coffee before he 353 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:07.960 went to work the next morning, and stood in the coffee shop and paged 354 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:14.079 up and down in front of him gesticulating, going, what are they thinking? 355 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:17.039 Why would they stake their reputation on me like that? On it? 356 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.559 And finally I decided I would go for this meeting to tell him I couldn't 357 00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:23.559 do it. And I did. I went downtown, had the meeting and 358 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:30.000 said I couldn't do it. But that was Anthony Freud, who's the director 359 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.680 of Chicago lyric O Parati. Okay, yeah, I know him from your 360 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.240 book. I don't know him, but I recognize the name. He He 361 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.880 just started explaining what he wanted as if I hadn't said I can't do it. 362 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:47.759 And I really connected with him and had to really listen and really think. 363 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.599 He's a deep thinker, a very brilliant person. And I finally said, 364 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.000 you know, I don't know how to do this, but I want 365 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.039 to do it, so and I know the first step, I'll go listen 366 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.240 to people. I don't know what step two is, but I think after 367 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.720 that I'll figure out the next step. But if I ever don't know that 368 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.359 step, I'm going to hand this project back to you unfinished. And I 369 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:17.559 got it. They accepted me, and we come to agreement on those terms. 370 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:23.119 This bumped me into a new period of my life where I for an 371 00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:30.720 entire year all I did was wander areas of my city I never knew and 372 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.880 network with people I would never have been speaking with, and finding people who 373 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.559 agreed to tell me their stories. Many of them gave me, you know, 374 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.960 an hour on the phone. The ones I chose, I sat down 375 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.920 with and that was many of them, many many more that are in the 376 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:56.319 book, and I recorded them and they talk anywhere from two to six hours. 377 00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:03.720 I didn't really know why I was telling everybody, please begin with I 378 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:08.440 was born. I didn't know why I was asking for one hundred times more 379 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:12.119 material than I needed for the words from music, which is very little. 380 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:18.200 You know, the ninety minute opera had three thousand words. You know, 381 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.400 a good book has one hundred thousand, or anywhere from eighty to one hundred 382 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:29.519 thousand these days. But the more I listened, the more I needed to 383 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:36.640 know, and I began to hear overlaps. It didn't seem to matter where 384 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.319 they were from anywhere all over the world. I mean, I interviewed people 385 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.480 from countries on every continent. There was so much overlap to the kinds of 386 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.799 things you and I were just talking about that immigrants don't tell their stories that 387 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.680 they want their children to feel safe. They don't want to say, oh, 388 00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:56.559 you come from danger and upheable and loss. They want to say you're 389 00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:00.240 American, You're American, You're American. Like they over emphasize it to you 390 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:07.200 because it's kind of a Shakespearean thing, you know, of protesting too much, 391 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:13.759 you know, But they sacrifice everything so that you will be safe, 392 00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:16.079 and so that you will be born here and you will be raised as an 393 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:22.079 American with every right to the ground beneath your feet, unlike what they had. 394 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:28.160 I began to think that everybody in this whole country is descended from people 395 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.960 who came from somewhere else, that America is different from every country in the 396 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:37.759 world, and this kind of secrecy and upheaval, often trauma and loss has 397 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:43.759 passed down to families. It was like there was this train rumbling under our 398 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:49.039 whole country, and it's as if the rumblings are everywhere. It was fascinating 399 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.039 to me, and I began to be aware that I too, I was 400 00:32:52.119 --> 00:33:00.680 also trying to find my way. I began to see overlaps of me Lesbian, 401 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:04.799 trying to find my way into this country and get my feet on the 402 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.839 ground and feel a right to do things that other people have an intrinsic right 403 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:12.599 to do, because that's how you feel at home. That's what home is. 404 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.720 How is this home? I thought, if I can't marry the person 405 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:20.079 I love, we were together ten years before we were allowed to get married. 406 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.240 Lots of people were like that, how is this home if there are 407 00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:28.359 no laws that protect me that, you know, like everybody else, how 408 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.039 is his home? At the time she goes to the hospital, I will 409 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:36.359 have no access. And so I didn't feel at home. Of course I 410 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.799 felt like a stranger. Of course I felt like an immigrant. But here 411 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:45.680 were people who had found their way, and so they became my teachers. 412 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.480 I wasn't this white, magnanimous person who are saying, well, you don't 413 00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:52.000 have a voice, but I do, so I will give you a voice. 414 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.240 You know, how was this peron, like this child going, how 415 00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:59.440 did you do it? Let me hear, Let me start from when you 416 00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:04.240 were a child? Help and getting inspired and more and more humble. But 417 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:08.840 as if I could follow them that way as openly who I am, A 418 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:14.039 to a lesbian, a born America and all of the above, no matter 419 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:19.760 how they might contradict into the place where I was born and feel that this 420 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.079 is my home. It became a very very important project. And that's what 421 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:31.199 the book is about. Not from here the song of America. This is 422 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:39.159 what you're saying is so reflective of what I hear, especially from folks I've 423 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:45.320 had on this podcast, to our first generation who have immigrant parents. There 424 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:52.159 is such an emphasis on assimilation and like keep your head down, do your 425 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:57.079 work, be good, like we sacrifice giving so so many of those people 426 00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:02.199 when they do realize that their quote unquote meaning gender, sexuality, anything that 427 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:08.559 is classified as other, there is that added reluctance and fear and guilt and 428 00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:14.840 burden of expressing it because they've grown up in this environment that is all about 429 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.239 the sacrifice that their parents made and how all they're supposed to do is blend 430 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.599 in. And here they are wanting to express this thing that will explicitly make 431 00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:29.320 them stick out. And that is like those two things are just so intrinsically 432 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.400 linked. You know, who would not speak to me? I mean, 433 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:35.800 if you read my book, you'll read some of the most powerful, moving, 434 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.880 unbelievable stories in the world, and you'll find out that this person is 435 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:45.239 like my neighborhood chiropractor, you know, like the most been null uh you 436 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:50.039 know of Americans that I happened on accidentally. I mean, these stories are 437 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.480 like change your life stories to read. They're incredible and they changed my life. 438 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:57.800 But do you know who would not speak to me? The people who 439 00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:00.559 came here because they were gay, They were cable to speak, not, 440 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:06.360 of course one of them. Sure, And now that gay people officially can 441 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:10.840 seek refugee status in this country because if they if gay people are being persecuted 442 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.159 in their in their countries, and I've met people like that in Houston. 443 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:20.320 They've those are people who can never go home. Those are people who can't 444 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:28.119 go back and see their parents. Someday those stories need to be collected. 445 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:34.679 Agreed. Yeah, Yeah, Oh my god, this is so incredible. 446 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:44.599 I'm like, where what to ask? So the the opera versus the book, 447 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.039 the opera is fully realized and exists and is out in the world. 448 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.719 Yes, even though the book the book is and as you need the assignment, 449 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:58.239 but the book had to be a supplemental, Like, yeah, as 450 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.519 you read the book, the opera is folding in the background. It's just 451 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:05.400 this sort of sense of music in the background. And the very last scene 452 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:13.679 is this Nigerian family that was the most amazing thing, most wonderful people I 453 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.639 have ever met in my life, who I will love forever and was humbled 454 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:24.079 the most by and they chose not to attend. And I can go into 455 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:27.920 that if you want. It's a little bit off topic from the gay thing. 456 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:34.719 But the final scene is in the lobby as at the premiere of the 457 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:38.880 opera, because I was looking for the father of that family who refused to 458 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.400 come. That's how the book ends. And then you I actually included, 459 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:45.679 I actually include the libretta, which is, you know, basic look a 460 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.159 text of a of a play. Yeah. No, if you want to 461 00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:54.559 speak to the yeah, if you want to share why that that unfolded in 462 00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:59.960 that way, and why you chose to end the book, Yeah that Look. 463 00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:05.079 In all of it, I learned so much about my country. Almost 464 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.960 everybody, in spite of the fact they were completely over open eyed about being 465 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.079 an immigrant in this country, in spite of the fact that it was difficult 466 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.400 getting in, difficult staying in. Not everybody I spoke to had papers or 467 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:28.039 were legal. In spite of the obstacles they met when they came, and 468 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.760 what they sacrificed so that their children could succeed, they were the most patriotic 469 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:37.440 people too. The last person I ever met in my life, I decided, 470 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.719 and I wrote it, that the American dream a word that completely embarrassed 471 00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.519 me. I thought it was a tarnished old myth, that was a lie. 472 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.320 I decided that the American dream is absolutely alive and well, and it 473 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:54.320 speaks with an accent. Maybe it always has, because what I came across 474 00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:59.559 was, you think it's bad here, it's not. What we left was 475 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:06.400 bad. It's just not perfect. And there was unbelievable gratitude, not just 476 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:10.039 that they got in, but that they had a shelter, that when they 477 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:14.159 went to work, they got a paycheck at the end of them at the 478 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:19.039 end of the pay period. You know, they were blown away at so 479 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.199 many things that we think we have a right for because they'd lived without. 480 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:29.000 Their goal in life was always to find a home that they could actually afford 481 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.199 to buy, because they wanted to own a piece of this country. It 482 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:36.480 was like that. They were very open eyed. And that's an intro because 483 00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.199 I wanted to say that, and I had to stop and think about that 484 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:44.360 as a gay person too, I really did, because gay people are being 485 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:51.039 jailed and killed still in countries around the world. And I never felt I 486 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:54.239 never felt in danger. I didn't always feel loved. I didn't always feel, 487 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:59.840 you know, embraced every social situation, but even that has largely faded 488 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.679 because of the constant awareness and presence. I don't like to say, rather 489 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:10.239 than labels, I would say the constant presence and awareness of non heterosexual people 490 00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:15.079 and our great prevalence in this world. It's just not all about them. 491 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:21.960 We are a bault a greatly a society of great variants, and you and 492 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:27.480 I are very very major players. Isn't it so? All right? So 493 00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.159 I met this Nigerian family. Should I still go into it? Am I 494 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.840 talking too much? Yeah? No, I'll say just briefly before you go 495 00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:37.440 into it. I do think I struggle with this a lot, and I've 496 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.000 noted this on the podcast. I think it's so hard. I can only 497 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:45.480 speak personally. It is so hard for me to reckon with and I'm always 498 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.960 talking about holding two truths at the same time. But just because I talk 499 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.320 about it doesn't mean I'm an expert at doing it. I think it's really 500 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:58.559 hard to reckon with the fact that there are things in this a lot of 501 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:04.519 things in this country that are unjust, that are abhorrent, that are just 502 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:12.239 very wrong. I mean even just the violence, the legislation, legislation against 503 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:19.400 trans people that we're looking at right now, the murder the next this child 504 00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:24.079 that was just like all of these things that still have so much room for 505 00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:30.719 improvement, and yet so that is one truth, and the other truth is 506 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:36.679 the fact that it is infinitely better in this country than in so many others, 507 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:42.079 And it's really hard to wrestle with that. As someone who has only 508 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.119 known this and has grown up here, it's very easy for me to criticize 509 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.119 all the wrongs, and I do think it is important to criticize those wrongs, 510 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.599 but I have to keep in perspective that it is so so much worse 511 00:41:54.039 --> 00:42:00.320 and so much more of the world than it is here, and that's really 512 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:07.000 hard to It's hard to wrap my head around. I get it. I 513 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:10.400 find it very painful that we have an either or a political system, you 514 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:14.760 know. And it's my gender queerness. I know it is. That's so 515 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:19.880 built into who I am, But like I don't I don't want to have 516 00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.159 to choose a label. I mean, don't get me wrong, you could 517 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:27.480 guess where you know, where my political leanings are. It doesn't mean I 518 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:34.000 always agree with that party of by far by far, you know what, 519 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.039 Why do I have to choose? It's the same thing with every subject that 520 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:43.159 I interviewed. They were like they felt their identity shifting as they became more 521 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:49.360 assimilated, and they had yearning for who they were because it was very much 522 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.920 a part of them that was never going to go away. And I heard 523 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.079 everyone say, am I Indian, or am I American? Am I Vietnamese? 524 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.199 Or am I American? And I was thinking, am I Jewish or 525 00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:01.320 am I American? Am I gay? Or am I American? Am I 526 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:05.719 Jewish or am I you know, like the truth is most of it. 527 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.360 I called it dancing on the hyphen. We're always teetering like that of our 528 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:14.360 hyphenated identities, and most of us had more than one hyphen. Come on, 529 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:19.199 that's the whole. I mean, that's intersectionality. That's what intersectionality is, 530 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:24.119 totally, totally. We exist in those margins. Everybody does a lot. 531 00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:30.760 My favorite image in the world is a Van diagram. Yes, very 532 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:35.719 true, right, No, Yeah, so I just wanted to note that 533 00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:38.239 in terms of what you were saying, because it's something that I struggle with 534 00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:43.559 a lot, a lot. But yeah, no, I'd love to hear 535 00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:47.440 the story of Yeah, it kind of does bring me to that family because 536 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:53.079 they had been here long enough to get citizenship. The family came when the 537 00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:59.719 kids, their four kids were not quite grown. They were all like in 538 00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:06.960 early adolescents are in adolescents. They were from an area of Nigeria. The 539 00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:13.559 state is called river Estate because it very was very fertile in many rivers and 540 00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:21.239 the Ogoni people that was their homeland for thousands of years and they thrived because 541 00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.440 it was full of it. You could grow anything, you could fish anything. 542 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:30.079 I mean, it was a good life until Royal Dust Shells showed up 543 00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:34.480 and found some of the largest oil reserves in the world. That goes back 544 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.679 to the nineteen fifties. And what they did is they stuck a deal with 545 00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:43.320 the Nigerian government ignore the people on the land. They didn't bring them in 546 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:52.920 on the deal, and took ownership and then they ran enormous pipelines across family 547 00:44:52.039 --> 00:45:04.360 fields in some places above ground, through villages across the thresholds that when some 548 00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:10.199 of the people protested, the Nigerian military showed up to protect Shells drilling and 549 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.000 they you know, they would kill people on the spot. It got worse 550 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:22.400 and worse. There was a movement to try and get rights and some ownership 551 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:30.639 of the oil, and then the military kind of took residents in the area 552 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.239 and the oppression was unbelievable. They killed tens of thousands of Agony. But 553 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.400 the worst part was that it wasn't very long before the pipes began to leak. 554 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:45.360 They were just not very well created and not well maintained. And today 555 00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:51.800 Agoniland is the most polluted place in the world. And Agoni still live there 556 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:57.519 and they die constantly. They lived what they call the oil sickness. This 557 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:02.840 family, their father had been one of the founders and leaders of the movement 558 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.800 for the Survival of the Agonian people, and they ran for their lives. 559 00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:14.679 They were incredibly persecuted for a long time and ran for their lives. Ultimately, 560 00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.800 he was the only one of the leaders of that movement that the government 561 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.320 did not manage to arrest, and they hung them all in one day. 562 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:25.679 And here I was sitting in their living room and in the suburban Houston. 563 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.039 Yeah, it was. He was a deeply spiritual person. He was actually 564 00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:39.840 the spiritual leader of the movement. Grave, brilliant, very tall. Kids 565 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:45.920 adored their parents, and they were very deeply bonded in the way of survivors 566 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:51.079 survivors can be. I never will get over the experience of sitting with them 567 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:57.519 as they started from I was born the kids. The kids grew up with 568 00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:04.440 the oil sickness al arena, they grew up with the military occupation. Before 569 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:08.880 they started telling you the story, the father looked at me in his grave 570 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:13.440 way and said, tell me something. Can you write anything that we say 571 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:17.960 here today? And me, still being this idealistic American of like, no, 572 00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:21.599 Well, I'm a citizen and I was born here, and I could 573 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:23.719 write anything, and I'm a new writer, and you know freedom of speech. 574 00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:25.880 I said, of course I can't. You know they hired me, 575 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.800 didn't they. I said, of course I can. So he tells me 576 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:34.840 this story, and I was run away. I wrote the story into the 577 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:39.519 libretto. Well, I want to tell you that you scratch anybody in Houston, 578 00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:45.880 you get oil. And the arts are huge at the city because of 579 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.800 all the charitable giving of the many, many oil companies. You look at 580 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:52.360 the big arts company, the symphony or ballet or anything, and like the 581 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:59.199 first twenty five names on their major donal list are oil related companies. I 582 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:04.239 turned in this bretto and I got a call and I had to go in 583 00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:08.199 and be told, no, you can't say oil, you can't say shell, 584 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.119 you can't say ogony, oh aw, Jesus, and I had to 585 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:17.760 go back to this family whose whole life, whose whole life had been this 586 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:23.320 story, and say I was wrong. I can't say oil, I can't 587 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:27.320 say agony, I can't say shell. And when I told him that, 588 00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.639 like I was on the bridge of tears and like it was the biggest tragedy 589 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:36.920 everwhere they began to laugh. I mean they laughed so hard. We're talking 590 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:40.800 news slapping, tears running down faces, people ribbing each other. I was 591 00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:46.840 like, what are you laughing at? Even this grave, serious spiritual father 592 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:52.039 was laughing. And I said, well, what is it? And the 593 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.239 father said, I said, what's so funny? He said, it's God. 594 00:48:55.559 --> 00:49:00.760 God is so funny. He saved us from certain death this out of 595 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:05.920 tens of thousands, out of out tens of thousands in the refugee jam refugee 596 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:09.199 camp, and deposited us. And he burst out laughing again in the North 597 00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:13.960 American headquarters, in the city of the North American headquarters are so well, 598 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.280 they're laughing, right, yeah, So I said, Ben, He said, 599 00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:22.000 did you think for one minute we ever imagine you were going to be 600 00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:27.360 allowed to tell I know, yeah, And then they said, thank you 601 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:30.840 very much. He said thank you very much, you will. I sat 602 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:36.239 out in the car afterwards and cried, this was this was my what you 603 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.039 know, I had a lot of wake up calls. The first twenty people 604 00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:44.079 I interviewed. I realized I interviewed at random, and every one of them 605 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:47.880 had run away from wars that the United States fed or bought in, or 606 00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.719 guided or caused. You know, like, I had a lot of wake 607 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:57.320 up moments. But this at the core of what I had chosen to do 608 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.280 in life, at the core of my work as an author, as a 609 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:06.239 writer, the most precious freedom I had. That wasn't I thought, wasn't 610 00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:12.599 questioned, Like my sexuality. I cried, and then I thought, wait 611 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:16.400 a minute, they knew and they still told me their story. Why did 612 00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:22.480 they do that? And the answer in my mind was because in America they 613 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:29.760 still can. That's why they spoke. Yeah, and that's what I'm about. 614 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:32.400 Changed me forever. I knew I would write this book. I knew 615 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:37.119 I would put the real story in it. I knew I would understand that 616 00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:40.320 the very act of speaking, even if it gets censored or shut down, 617 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:45.800 is our act of asserting our freedom. It's what we have to do. 618 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:49.519 It set me up for life. As an author, I want to be 619 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.159 dangerous. That's what we are. Artists are dangerous, and as a gay 620 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:58.719 person, as an activist, opening your mouth is being an activist. We 621 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:02.559 all need to be dangerous. Y m, that's what I'm you know what 622 00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:07.039 I was trying to get at about this, the holding the two truths. 623 00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:15.199 It's like, yes, we so America is you're yes, you can say, 624 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:20.880 you can say these things, and military is not going to drag you 625 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:23.639 out of your home in the middle of the night because you told the wrong 626 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.239 person the wrong story. The flip side of that is we are ruled by 627 00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:32.760 corporations and money and capitalism, so those stories are not going to be shared 628 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:37.039 in the way we want them, and we're still beholden. But you have 629 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:39.280 to weigh that against the being pulled out of your bed in the middle of 630 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.760 the night by the military. And it's just like, it doesn't mean that 631 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:47.400 it's not fucking terrible that we are under the thumb of big oil and big 632 00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:53.119 farm and all the other big things. Your story it against the alternative that 633 00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:59.599 this story was my final step of intro into corporate America, into the realities 634 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:05.360 of living here, and that it specifically was connected to the devastation that those 635 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.480 corporations can reak on the on the physical world around us. It was a 636 00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:15.199 learning experience like no other. I finally grew up. I love them for 637 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:19.719 it. I will always love them for it, because what in spite of 638 00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:24.880 it, they were just as patriotic as every other family in spite of it. 639 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:30.159 It's an open eyed reality kind of thing. Yes, it really is, 640 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:37.840 and it's it just really dashes the idealistic idea of wanting like this purity 641 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:44.639 that does not exist anywhere. I don't think realistically it certainly doesn't exist in 642 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:47.239 this country. But it's like, yeah, we are able to quote unquote 643 00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:55.360 work within the system to such a greater extent than in countries where you will 644 00:52:57.079 --> 00:53:04.719 be silenced literally immediate. Like it's it's oh god, I hate I hate 645 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:09.320 things that are but it's true. The fight never ends, right, it 646 00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:15.199 doesn't end. That's why I hate people referring to what they call the Civil 647 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:17.239 rights era, Like it makes me laugh out loud. Come on, sure, 648 00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:22.039 yeah, like it just happened and we accomplished that, so let's celebrate. 649 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:28.239 Fuck you. But it's like, no way, you know, there 650 00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:31.960 was a point when I met all those people who would escaped such a you 651 00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:37.679 know war. Basically, well, it put the struggle that I'd had in 652 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:43.599 a fundamentalist world in perspective, because once I was out of it, I 653 00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:45.519 thought, oh my god, look what I was objected to. Well, 654 00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:50.840 it was small compared, but it also woke me up and made me say, 655 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.119 in that world, it was like a day to day war on my 656 00:53:54.239 --> 00:54:00.840 soul. Yes, it's also okay that it's smaller than and something, you 657 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:06.079 know what I mean, Like we it's we can't compare. We can compare 658 00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:12.360 horrors, but they're still horrors. That's okay to be profoundly affected by your 659 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.960 horrors, even if they're pale in comparison to somebody else's. Like, that's 660 00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:21.360 right. It didn't pop me into toxic positivity, but in perspective. But 661 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:25.000 at the same time, I saw it as a war because I understood too 662 00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:30.880 intuitively what so many people had gone through. I just I just got it. 663 00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:36.400 And you find this in the book to this sort of coming into perspective 664 00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:40.840 as a gay person and as a Jewish person, and as someone whose ancestors 665 00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:45.079 had also struggled to find their way into this country. It's a never ending 666 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.840 process here. I hope it always will be. I think it's a big 667 00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:55.239 source of our strength in the world. But it was a profound and moving 668 00:54:55.320 --> 00:54:58.840 thing. I also want to say I put I held on these stories for 669 00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:02.000 a number of years, very I had over a thousand pages of transcripts, 670 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:05.800 and I didn't know what to do with them. I knew I wanted to 671 00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:08.639 write them, but when I tried to write them up just as a compendium 672 00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:14.079 of people telling their stories, it was like images passing in a train window. 673 00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:15.800 And you know, I began to understand that I was the through I. 674 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:19.599 You know, I had sloid. I'd never write a memoir, but 675 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:24.000 this became my secret. But what really kicked me into it finally was twenty 676 00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:28.679 sixteen, you know, when that election happened and all the flat, the 677 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.840 really ugly flat. There's always been flat about immigration, but the really ugly 678 00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:35.760 flat began. That's when I went, oh, no, I have an 679 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:39.880 obligation. Now. That's when I started going into the struggle of making this 680 00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:44.679 real for you. People tell their stories out of context, right out of 681 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:47.360 the context of their society, their time, their place, so it can 682 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:53.239 be flat to read it just a report and I needed to make those stories 683 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:59.119 come alive for you. I needed to do the research to interject just the 684 00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:06.599 comments that put what they said into historical or or cultural context, but also 685 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:10.440 into the context of reading it as an American and that you know, that 686 00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.760 fine mind where it's almost a voice in your head that helps you understand rather 687 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:20.880 than interrupts the stories I can talk. I had to find that balance. 688 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:30.519 H That was my struggle and eventually and also the next struggle publishing anything as 689 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:37.840 a gay woman. All right, but you know, publishers are now corporations. 690 00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:42.400 They want they will only buy a book if it's will appeal to a 691 00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:47.039 market, and their markets are are defined by by population. Yeah, this 692 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:53.519 is TV. This is media totally totally and it is driving this this this 693 00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:59.760 you know, majority dominance in our media, absolutely driving. So there was 694 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:02.800 some delay and making it happen. I actually went out of the country, 695 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:10.880 this time to an international publisher that's based on London. Oh okay, interesting, 696 00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:15.920 but they have offices in the US. It's called the book is going 697 00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:20.760 to thirty three countries. So that was actually a good move. They accepted 698 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.159 the book in two weeks. Really, they didn't have the US problem. 699 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:36.440 Interesting, Oh, that's so interesting. This makes me want to ask. 700 00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:38.320 No one is going to be surprised. Did I ask that? But because 701 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:45.360 you're just talking about going to London and to get it published, do you 702 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:49.880 have this is going back more towards your memoir, but do you have any 703 00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:57.119 thoughts, feelings, opinions on the film Disobedience? It just made me think 704 00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:07.760 about that story of obviously lesbianism within the but again it taking place in England 705 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:15.920 and not America in terms of someone leaving the Hasidic community and all of that. 706 00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:19.440 You know, there are a few that are kind of blooding to me 707 00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.360 together in my head, but I'm pretty sure I know which one you're talking 708 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.320 about. No, I liked it. I actually kind of liked it. 709 00:58:25.480 --> 00:58:29.360 You did, Okay, Okay, good? No, I was just wondering 710 00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:35.519 since as somebody who wrote the first game memoir, Yeah, I was wondering 711 00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:39.519 if you had that film was I think one of the first approaching that topic. 712 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:45.039 But it is interesting that it was in a story about the Hasidic community 713 00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:50.599 in England, not in America, and I wonder if anyone has tried to 714 00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:55.239 tell that story in America, and if it hasn't been there were some aspects 715 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:59.880 of it that I thought were a little bit inauthentic or a little bit undeveloped. 716 00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:02.000 I'd have to go back and like refresh my mind to be able to 717 00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:07.920 discuss it. Did you have a specific question or tell me what you thought 718 00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:13.360 you thought. I'm I'm obsessed with Rachel Advice, so I am biased. 719 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:16.039 She's pretty really about that film. But no, I had brought it up 720 00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:21.119 to as I told you off Mike, we have the podcast has only had 721 00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:24.800 one other guest who I've been able to speak to about leaving the Hasidic community. 722 00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:28.960 Her name is Melissa White, So for anyone who wants to look up 723 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.320 that episode, it's still the same as Rachel Vice, but pronounced it differently. 724 00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:38.639 But yeah, you can search Melissa w e I s z in our 725 00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:44.599 in our episodes. And I had asked her that question, and she had 726 00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:52.320 not thought that favorably about the film in terms of like how it was portrayed. 727 00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:53.519 And I was just wondering, yeah, if it felt authentic. But 728 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:58.559 it's interesting that you use the word that some moments were inauthentic to you. 729 00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:01.880 I mean, yeah, someone who lived it. Yeah, I'm just always 730 01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:07.480 curious because that is the most mainstream. I feel like version we've seen of 731 01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:14.000 showing lesbianism within that community, like there's not a lot of material. There's 732 01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:16.199 not a lot of media about that topic. And that one sort of broke 733 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:20.920 through because it had you know, big name actors and all of that. 734 01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:23.679 And so I always wonder if that is a if people feel that's like a 735 01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:29.679 positive or not positive but accurate representation, or if it so, yeah, 736 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:38.400 sounds like a mixed bag. Yeah. After my memoir came out, I 737 01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:45.639 met someone online who was a gay activist in the Hasidic community. He was 738 01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:50.320 trying desperately to stay there and yet be out and because it was all EI 739 01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:54.760 known and it became an activist so he he through him, I sent him 740 01:00:54.800 --> 01:01:00.159 I think ten copies of the book and I wrote a dedication in every one 741 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:01.920 and said, if you've read this, it was given to you for reason. 742 01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:06.480 After you read it, you're reading it because you've agreed to pass it 743 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:12.440 on to someone else. And I seedd the New York Hassidic community with that's 744 01:01:12.519 --> 01:01:17.960 amazing, and this is back in like twenty sixteen. And then he as 745 01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:25.119 he used this sort of as a flag to start the very first totally closed. 746 01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:29.679 Facebook used to be able to make closed groups in Facebook where you couldn't 747 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:35.880 even find the members. It was called it was a Hasidic LGBTQ group. 748 01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:38.519 That's incredible, and we all of a sudden we had people from all over 749 01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:42.840 the world, Rabbis of longbeards and ten kids who are getting on and going. 750 01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:45.599 I don't know what to do. I'm trans you know, I've never 751 01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:51.519 spoken to anybody in my life. And I mean the suicide rate among those 752 01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:55.719 that particular population people are not heterosexual, who are in the Hasidic world or 753 01:01:55.760 --> 01:02:02.400 in any fundamentalist world, the suicide rate is very very high, and the 754 01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:08.199 rate of addiction is very very high. People are dying. They die a 755 01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:13.639 lot. Yes, And the group became those that lived on the Ease Coast 756 01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:22.079 became a very important support group for one another. It was and I was 757 01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:29.199 like the mama, you know, they're mostly It was incredible experience. I'm 758 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:32.360 so glad. Yeah, I mean, I'm speaking to someone who My cousin 759 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:39.559 is a lesbian Mormon who is married to another Mormon woman. They both realized 760 01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:44.119 they were lesbians, but my cousin has made the choice, at least as 761 01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:49.199 recently as we Spoke has made the choice to remain active in the church and 762 01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.800 be visible as and it's like, oh my god. But but at least 763 01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:58.599 with the Mormon community, I do feel like we do have a lot of 764 01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:02.280 story or at least media about queer Mormons. Like it's more of like, 765 01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:07.360 uh, not a trope, but like I don't know, an open secret 766 01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:12.840 that this happens. And within the city community, it's like not really, 767 01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:17.440 not so much. I mean, those groups have proliferated, just like fundamentalists 768 01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:22.880 gay groups have proliferated, and that a lot of people have, like you 769 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:27.719 know, have become more visible because of it. I mean, you just 770 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.599 can't deny something if it's there all the time and the words are there. 771 01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:35.639 It's when the words are there, like I didn't have when I was a 772 01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:38.320 kid, when they're all around you, you simply it becomes part of your 773 01:03:38.440 --> 01:03:43.519 vocabulary. You can't avoid it. I can't tell you. And things are 774 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:46.719 starting to change. A lot of the women lost all their children and had 775 01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:52.159 lost custody and could never see them again, and the New York City courts 776 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:54.360 were upholding it. There's a lot of legal stuff, a little legal battles 777 01:03:54.400 --> 01:04:00.239 going on now, but that's also starting to turn around. Okay, I'm 778 01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:05.480 glad to hear that. Yeah, okay, so yeah, please, I 779 01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:12.800 was going to say, go to the online uh site, the Refuge that 780 01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:15.840 was the name of the opera, the Refuge music dot Com, and you 781 01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:21.440 can hear snatches of the music of people telling true much beautiful and it's very 782 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:27.000 very good. That's beautiful, and you're welcome to come to my website, 783 01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:30.840 lailax author dot com. It's not that great, but you can find both 784 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:34.840 of my books on it. You can find both of my books on Amazon 785 01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:40.840 uncovered and the new one. Go pre order because pre orders help a book 786 01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:45.440 more than anything in the world. Mary eight, so barely even a preorder, 787 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.920 that's right, Like, come on, yeah, and you will be 788 01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:53.960 the first on your block because it's guaranteed delivery on March twenty eight, So 789 01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:59.639 go for it. Not from here. The Song of America. And are 790 01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:02.880 you on social media? Doll? Oh sorry, follow no, yeah, 791 01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:05.320 I just want you to shout out all of the things. So yeah, 792 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:11.599 I kind of focus on Facebook and my page is public, so you don't 793 01:05:11.639 --> 01:05:15.320 even have to be a fred but come be my friend. And I'm kind 794 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:19.719 of growing Instagram now, it's about time. Oh nice, what is your 795 01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:27.199 what is your Instagram handle? Well, I'm about to start a professional one, 796 01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:30.119 because only if you have a professional patron to the boring ones, that's 797 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:32.840 the only way you can share it to Facebook and the same prine. But 798 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:38.559 it's at laylax one, okay, And I'll put all of this All of 799 01:05:38.599 --> 01:05:42.239 this information will be in the show notes as well, and links to the 800 01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:47.719 book and and everything that Leah just mentioned. And I am at Lauren Flans 801 01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:53.440 on Twitter, Lauren underscore Flans on Instagram. The podcast is at coming Out 802 01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:56.719 Pod. The hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod. I want to shout out 803 01:05:56.760 --> 01:06:00.960 my fantastic patrons. Thank you to Carmel kaz Mone, Cayenne, Michelle l 804 01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:05.800 Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tiya, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandez, 805 01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:10.239 and Beyonclexa dot com. And as always, if you would like to 806 01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:15.599 support the podcast for no money whatsoever, a really excellent way to do that 807 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:20.079 is if you want to rate it five stars on You can do that on 808 01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:26.800 either iTunes or on Spotify. But yeah, clicking five stars really helps helps 809 01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:30.960 the podcast to pop up in people's algorithm, so that they can find it. 810 01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:35.320 Lea, this was so fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on 811 01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:40.519 the pod, for sharing all this your story, your personal story is incredible, 812 01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:45.800 and then just the work that you did towards this book is so essential 813 01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:50.320 and I'm just so glad that those people's stories are able to be out there. 814 01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:55.760 I, as someone who has a storytelling podcast, I am extremely appreciative 815 01:06:56.280 --> 01:07:00.239 of the work that you did and the stories that you're sharing. Thank you. 816 01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:02.880 You know, I've told this story over the years in different places, 817 01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:06.039 but to do it here where I can really get to the heart of the 818 01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:11.440 matter that you know who you are, I just believe your sexuality. I 819 01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:14.239 mean, I know our sexuality goes to the core of who we are and 820 01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:19.559 it is the source of our creativity, it's our spark. So to get 821 01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.840 to go to the core of it all as the through line, the driving 822 01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:27.639 line through all of my story here is just the most honest way to go 823 01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:31.159 and it felt great. Thanks so much. Thank you. All right, 824 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:36.400 y'all, I will see you next Wednesday. Ah bye bye.