What is krak Alakin fellow Thermo nuclear A efforts. I am Dan fa Valley,
joined by my certified fantabulous co host Grant Hughes. Four Part two of
our three quarter season awards check in, where we have Rookie of the Year,
sixth Man of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and hopefully
we won't go too long cause we have all NBA, All Defense and all
rookie teams to get to as well. I hope this doesn't become a three
part podcast, but it's Grant and I so you can never sort of count
count that out. And if you have not checked out our first part where
we did MVP Executive the Year, Coach of the Year, most Improved Player,
which was a doozy. I mean, the MVP discussion was long,
but we named like eighty players when it came to the most improved discussion,
So go check that out. Grant, though, as we record this and
very quickly, stats that we mentioned all locked as of March first. This
is going up on Monday, but everything we're mentioning statistically locked as of March
first. We also recognize a lot of these races. We will do it
at the end of the Year could change. I also am to make it
different. I'm gonna try and we might crowdsource it if you join our discord.
I'll put out to our discord members to go and make their own votes
and we'll see, like what the listeners collectively, who the listeners collectively pick.
Might be fun for these awards, but it's even bigger day because after
we record this, Grant is going to go win the CrossFit Open on March
for March first that that segment, so he is here a few hours before
he just goes and absolutely kills it. Grant, how are you doing,
I'm one. I'm inspired by your confidence. That's really probably That's how I'm
doing mostly you say when I say complete, hopefully, And it's the scale
division, so anybody that knows anything is going to be less impressed if I
do well in this division. I might do performance division on Monday. We'll
see, so we'll report back at some point. But by the time you
hear this, though, I will have either succeeded or failed or done something
in between. And that's kind of how I'm approaching all these awards and all
NBA and all Rookie and all defensive We might succeed or fail, but probably
fall somewhere in between. Because man, like some of this was just like
agonizing, right, like the just there's you said, like, oh,
we mentioned eighty players, Like I feel like I'm just giving participation trophies to
like half of the league on a lot of this, because there's just there's
guys you can't not mention, even if you know there's no way they're going
to be on your first team or your second team, but like you can't
not say the name just because they deserve it. You don't want, like
any fan base to feel like we have an agenda against them. So it's
like if some and so doesn't make your all NBA team or your all defense
team, you don't want it to be a situation like that's a between the
ears thing. I think there are some podcasters, many of which are just
going to be more successful than us because they don't do this, who don't
care about leaving off or pissing off people. But it's like, no,
I need to mention. Like it was funny because someone on Twitter mentioned our
long most improved player list, and so they went like the players three hundred,
like they did a meme. Oh players three hundred and fifty five and
had Nause, Marshall, so and so and Kelly Olinok. I was like,
you know, you laugh, but we mentioned one of these players on
the podcast Yesserday and it was so it was Kelly Olinic. Yeah, I'm
with you on that was any of these the remaining three awards, I think,
like, were any of them just easy? Like what was the easiest
one for you to do? Oh? Man? Well, I would say
I think maybe like my All NBA second Team that's not an award, but
like the hard part was the first team and like specifically the fifth guy,
which if you listened to our MVP, we kind of spoiled it. But
I felt good about the second teamers, like really good. But other than
that, I mean, well, I think Rookie of the Year got a
little easier for me over the last several days. But I mean even that
is like not a done deal, right, Like no, because I think
people forget that's a full season award and I'd like to let's say that one
for a last Where do you want to go to start off? And if
anyone wants to hear the criteria and methodology in full, we both went on
like two minute long monologue in the first part. Go check that out.
I promise you. We've watched we've we've looked at numbers, we've listened to
other people, read other people. And just because we're not mentioning every nook
and cranny of a player's case or not a case, it doesn't mean that
we didn't factor it in. It doesn't mean that we've been inconsistent. We've
probably been I'm sure I've been inconsistent with my logic, but like it's hard.
We're trying to button this up to where hey, it's only a two
hour podcast instead of an eight hour but we're all doing our best out here.
So we have Defensive Player of the Year, Rookie of the Year,
and six Man are like individual ones that we haven't done yet. Right,
let's start. Let's start with six Man terrified. All right, Yeah,
this was one. Like the only thing I'm sure about is that the criteria
for this award are like stupid and don't make sense and it's almost always wrong,
Like you know, it's like the ya points off the bench thing,
which, having said that, we're probably mostly just going to talk about guys
that score a lot of points. Off the bench, so it's kind of
unavoidable. Even if that feels why I have, I cannot wait to disprove
that theory. Good good. I like that a lot. Okay, So
I have a guess where you're gonna go with your number one. So I'll
just give you mine here. Mine is Malik Monk for six Man of the
Year. He is very much like a ya points guy, just but also
underrated playmaker. And the key for me, and this is the argument I
made when I did the write up for br is that, like, there's
certain types of six men that come in halfway through the first quarter, play
against backups, play a lot of the second quarter, and maybe you don't
see him that much in the second half. That's not really Malik Monk.
He has he averages more fourth quarter minutes than any other reserve. So the
Kings put him out there. They view him as one of their five best
guys. He plays, you know, the most meaningful minutes and has a
significant role in those minutes, so you know, fifteen basically a fifteen to
five guy, decent shooting splits. But I think the differentiator for me with
this award is that the Kings don't play him like your typical six man,
Like he is out there in high leverage minutes, and so that kind of
just decided it for me. You know, has a bunch of you know,
he rates among like a lot of starters in terms of like clutch points
and fourth quarter points and fourth quarter minutes and like that kind of stuff and
even assists. So that sort of set him up to it made it a
little bit like sort of cognitively clearer for me because he just seemed a little
different than some of the other guys we're going to consider. I don't know
that I'd say, like, oh, he's objectively a better player than all
these guys, but like the role that he's in is different. So that's
kind of my thinking on having him be my number one there. Yeah,
so I considered him at number one and he is my number two. And
I think the look you said, it's the a points. I think he's
kind of improved his directionality as a score. It's the passing from that made
it really and the fact that oh he could close for this team that made
this decision really difficult with who to pick number one over him. I ultimately
went, did you want to take a guess? Is it nasrid? Yes,
it's nasrid for me, and he's not yay points and he's not gonna
close if things are going right for Minnesota. But when you look at his
value and your ability to he just worked with either big. The numbers are
just there with Karl, Anthony Towns, Rudy Gobert, doesn't matter. Maybe
you wish that he could plays the loan big a little bit more, they
won don't really have the time available for that to happen. And two,
I think he has improved his rim protection this year. I think what we've
also seen is that he's really good. It's not just switchable, it's like
actually able to stay in front or move laterally against guys on the perimeter.
And that's a huge skill if you won want to run with duel bigs.
And two just in general to look at a guy whether you know, even
if you considered him your center, but the fact that he's able to guard
on the perimeter so well, that coupled with the three point shooting this year.
And then also so he still has that floor game, Like the efficiency
inside the arc has kind of declined, but a lot of that has to
do with the fact that this isn't someone who's just a play finisher in those
situations. The Timberwolves are working with finite space in the half court most of
the time because of the lineups they run out there with the dual bigs,
but just also some of their you know, some of their wing shooters have
just been disappointing this year, or they're just considered non shooters to begin with,
and so to have somebody who can kind of work the crevices and have
the handle necessary to take guys off off the dribble if he needs to attack
from a close out situation or even just from a stand still go out a
defender. His game is more expansive, and I think that the impact he
has on the Wolves, it belies like or it needs to transcend the volume
that we're see because yeah, there are gonna be guys that have more minutes
because Karl Anthony Towns already to go better in front of him. And if
you want to say, well, like six man, I want someone who
I know is going to close like even fifty percent of the time for this
team, I kind of get that. But from just what I've watched,
if NAS read this year, he feels like he has been, bar none,
the most impactful reserve to me, and I think the actually the only
player that gave me pause was Malik Monk. And there are other guys who
are gonna show up on me, like just talk about this, but Monk
was the and I might pick Monk by the end of the year at this
rate, depending on how the season just ends. But this was this was
one of the closer like one two's for me for sure. Yeah, I
got Nasrid at three on mine. My number two though, is Norm Powell.
And I think a lot of people will be surprised that we have not
said Tim Hardaway Junior yet He's kind of in my worth dimensions because I think
I could be mistaken. I haven't looked today, but I think Hardaway is
the betting favorite, right or maybe it's Monk, but Hardaway had that title
for is now the betting favorite, and I had him three by the way,
So I'm just gonna throw that up there so that you could vamp.
Okay, Yeah, no, so it's it's the a points thing. But
also like Powell is like far and away the most I guess the other guy
that we should probably mention, I don't know where he is on yours in
addition to Hardaway, who I have I'm gonna put hard Away fifth. I
guess h is Bogdan Bogdanovic at four. Bogdanovic is a little more of the
score facilitate makeup than like say Hardaway and Powell, for example, you know,
maybe even better than that better at that stuff van Monk if not necessarily
this year. But Powell's distinguishing feature is just efficiency, Like he's sixty three
to one true shooting, and just to compare that, Hardaway is at fifty
five six, which I'm pretty sure is a tick below the league average in
true shooting percentage this season, and Bogdanovich is fifty six to six. Powell
has just been, like, I mean, an unbelievable three point shooter,
can still slash call him one dimensional, I guess, like he's not out
there to pass the ball. Like his assist rates are like laughably lower than
you know, even Hardaways for example, but like and way below Bogdanovic and
way below Monk. But Powell is just like he's the surest bucket of any
of those guys. And you might say, like, you know, with
the exception of like well, Luca is gonna set up hard Away for easy
shots like Powell has hardened doing that. I'm just like, I'm not gonna
care that much about like how these guys are scoring. You know, they're
not always playing with starters. So Powell's efficiency just does it for me.
That's why I had him there. I think there's definitely an argument for Reid
to be above him or even Monk, but I can't get there putting hard
Away or Bogdanovic. And I'm not gonna go way deep on my ballot because
we're gonna need to finish this in under seven hours. So I think,
what do you think about that? Is that the case for Powell for you
too, is just the efficiency. It's the efficiency, but it's also like
he gives the Clippers two things that I think they desperately need. Is that
ability to give you rim pressure with the ball in his hands or just right
off the catch. And then two, it's hard to thrive within an ecosystem
where you know, hey, I might be the fifth option in most of
these lineups just because I know I'm gonna be the fourth if I like to
have someone who can play with all the stars or two of the stars,
and in so seamlessly. That's a really big deal that I think people kind
of underrate sometimes. And so if you're gonna do that and then have like
the volume scoring with the efficiency, that's sort of a no brainer case.
And so like he, I think you could make a case through yes,
if any of these three, my three players won the award, I can't
get there were Bob down Madonovic. I had him fifth, but it's just
like some of the noise there defensively. Maybe that's because he's kind of shifted
when the Hawks were at full strength, Like he's been nudged into defensive spots
that he really shouldn't be. But I like he's a worthwhile candidate as well.
My fourth, I like, I think, I know I said that
nas reading the league Monk were super close, Like it wouldn't shock me if
Norman Palell just not came out of left field but won this award this season,
Like giving what happens during the closing stretch, even though the Clippers are
struggling right now, do you want to know who my fourth is? It's
a mystery because I thought we would have like at least a similar five.
I'm looking for Joe Baby if he could just play more. If the Thunder
were playing him more, I might have him winning the award just because per
minute, I think he's been no worse than like the second most impactful reserve,
and there are gonna be times like he could close because like Gideon Dort,
aren't givens against certain matchups. But I just averaging under twenty minutes a
game for the year, I can't get there. It's just too that's like
to you know, Naserita, I think is at what twenty one point two
or whatever it is, Uh so that was enough. But like for me,
I just looked at that number and it's not just the shooting. Yeah,
okay, forty three and a half percent from deep is great, But
like, this is someone who will cut to the basket. He can put
the ball on the floor a little bit, and I think aside from just
the movement he gives you on the offensive end, knowing where to be in
the right spots, knowing what to do in transition, this is someone who
works his ass off defensively. And it's a lot easier to be complimentary of
a player's defense and effort when like they get to play with Chet and Jay
Dub and lou Dort and even Shay this year, but like, holy crap,
Isaiah and Joe is going to be more physical on the defensive end,
then he gets a lot of credit. And so I find myself not wishing
because I don't necessarily care who wins these awards. Like I watch him and
I'm just like, if he had a bigger role, And I think you
could make the case that he should have a bigger role when you see how
on even one Josh Giddy's been specifically, and then lou Dort, one of
the best defenders in the game, been taking better shots lately, but there's
like peaks and plunges to the way he plays at both ends, and you
don't have that hit or miss element with Isaiah Joe. And so this is
I lament that he's not higher just because I think he has been that good.
Yeah, that's fair. Would you like you wanted to run through deep
cuts? Yeah, I have another five games on mind, you only just
paste him in there, go for it. So one of these guys I
think is going to be ineligible. And also I didn't include a manual quickly
because he should be ineligible by the end of the year, and it's just
how does the case get made, like for what he was doing with the
Knicks. But another one who falls under that umbrella and I did include him,
was I wonder where pods would end up here for me if he wasn't
a starter. Now it ultimately doesn't, but I included him in my top
ten. Caroslvert. He's been very integral to not just helping the Cavs float
some of the bench lineups, but he he helps them play with pace.
When you look at how he's injected them with just a stable presence in transition
as a ball handler. You already made the case for Tim Hardaway Junior Jordan
Clarkson, I think has improved a lot as a pastor. I just the
efficiency isn't there. And then I don't know what to do with the heat
because it's like Jaime Hawkes or Duncan Robinson might not qualify for this award,
like depending on how this season closes out, but I just wanted to shout
them out because those are guys that do qualify when you look at how much
they've come off the bench this year so far, and they've both just been
really good. Yeah, I would echo basically everyone you have there. Clarkson
and Lavert were kind of my next two. Those are pretty classic six man
guys, just to get the names out there so we can cover some bases.
I think TJ. McConnell second most assists among reserves, and just the
way that he like a lot of the on off numbers don't love him.
Part of that's because Halbert is so good that it like juices the net rating
in a way that doesn't help McConnell. But he plays with such pace,
like he's so good at those like weird little eight foot shots, and he
does like the the Nash dribble under the bat like he brings a lot to
the pacers. He like really fits how they play like he he kind of
plays this way anyway, But the hundred miles an hour thing works for Indiana.
Trying to think, who else you said, LeVert Al Horford probably belong
here, Walker Kessler. It's weird that he's coming off the bench, but
he's got by far. He's got like twice as many blocks among bench players
as the second highest guy. Like disappointing year for him, but maybe a
mentioned the minutes are so low. Well, I'm going to talk about this
guy later too. Jonathan Isaac has been so goddamn good in like no playing
time at all. I just want his name on there. One of the
best defenders like in the league, full stop when he's on the floor.
So just just to get a different type of guy out there, let's let's
let's do that. Uh, that's as far as I think we need to
go. I'm sure we'll offend somebody by not mentioning them, but that's pretty
thorough. Yeah, And like these weren't again after our top five. Basically
they're not rankings, as I was, just including the names that the list
wasn't too long next to each other in grants. But that's a I do
expect for what it's worth. I do expect Malik Monk to win the award
if I had to be Yeah, I think that's probably if I didn't have
to bet on it, he would be the betting favorite, and in fact
he is. So that's child. Yeah, So you want to do lead
us into Defensive Player of the Year, Okay, let's go to let me
pull that up here. I mean, it feels like a cop out,
but I just don't think that's the right way to think about it. He's
the most important defensive player on a team whose defense is like, I mean,
the distance last I checked between the Timberwolves and the second best defense was
about the same as the difference between second and like eighth or ninth. So
Rudy Gobert is won for me. There are a lot of other good defensive
players on the Timberwolves, at least one of them. I think we'll probably
mention and certainly we'll mention it and all defensive teams, but one of he's
gonna make one of mine. So I just like, if you have another
guy up there, I would love to hear the case because go Beart is
just like elite rim defense. He's doing better guarding in space, and he's
just the most important guy on the best defense in the league, and it's
the best defense by a mile. So that's the sort of nutshell case for
him. Do you know what's interesting, though, So Rudy Gobert is my
defensive player of the Year, and it's just it's really not that close.
I would say, do you know what's interesting to me is like how much
the defense of metrics just don't seem to love him this year. And I
do wonder how much of that is just like when you look at some of
the counting stats that we know a lot of these other metrics or a lot
of these catch all or kitchen sak metrics sort of value. It's okay,
well you've seen his defensive rebounding rate dip just a little bit. But then
I look and it's like, all right, is Stee Ray is down but
the block rate is up. So I just don't understand why some of these
metrics like don't love him, like the defense of ones, even which we
recognize aren't perfect. I will say what he's been just absolutely crazy with so
opponents are shooting fourteen point four points worse at the rim than expected against him.
That's per b Ball Index. That is the second highest among any player
who has logged one thousand minutes. And I think you could probably even lower
the threshold and need still be second. But I just used a thousand only
Walker Kessler is in front of him. To your point about Walker Kesler maybe
needing some six Man of the Year love, that is just when you look
at how many shots he's contesting, that's pretty bonkers. And I think what's
bigger for me is look at the way he's moving this year like, and
I know part of it is he has guys on the perimeter and Jaden McDaniels
and Ni Kail, Alexander Walker, even Anthony Edwards that he never really had
in Utah. But just like he is able to move in space. And
there are still questions about how this dual big setup will sustain in the playoffs.
But I'm worried about their offense. I'm just I have not that have
no notes about there, even like I don't have any issue. I don't
care who he's going up against, whether it's the Clippers, whether it's the
Nuggets, whatever team, Like I think the Wolves's defense is going to sustain
and Rudy Gobert is just the driving force behind why. And I can't say
enough it's not just I think a lot of it in years past has been
built around his rim protection. I think this is the most would be comprehensive
or versatile defensive Player of the Year case that he's ever had. I think
that's fair. I mean, like it does the like I take your point
and I mentioned it in my write up and I think I said it.
But the his what appears to be a bizarre like you know, kind of
late career improvement in an area that you wouldn't expect a big guy to get
better at, which is moving in space is a big deal. It's still
like the deterrent effect is just so real. Like, you know, opponents
take about six percent fewer shots at the rim when he's in the game.
That's an elite figure. He's allowing about forty eight percent conversion rate inside six
feet when he's the primary defender. That's the best of anybody that is a
high volume rim defender. So like that's all just that's where starts. And
then the fact that it now branches out, it's like beyond you know,
the charge circle, say, is like just such a huge deal. I
am fascinated who your number two is? Uh, Like, you know,
I could tell you who I took out of that. So my two,
three, four, five is just what I agonize over because that's the spots
we're ranking. Even though the ballot only goes three deep. For this,
I will say he is no longer number two. I did have him there.
I oltimately flipped and maybe I'll come back. I had Derek White number
two at first, but I ultimately think he's the type of guy, you
know where we talked about Giannis is sort of the rover. It's like,
well, what if you took someone who could be this rover and this play
under when he's defending the second best player or the third best player on the
other team. But also if you want him to go check the best player
on the other team, yeah, he'll do that. The reason he doesn't
on a lot of on a lot of I don't want to say nights,
but in primary line's because Drew Holliday exists and I oltenately didn't know how to
wait that, and so I ended up nudging two more players in front of
him. And I'm curious what you think about this. I have at number
two bam Adebayo okay, and at number guy, why does why am I
like? Do we not have a number one? We'll look at that.
I screwed up the I didn't have a saw scrup so bam Ade Bio at
number two, and I have Victor Webinam at number three. The do you
want to go like, all right, is there any overlap here that Wemby
is two for me? Oh? Okay, I feel a lot better now.
Yeah. I think here's the one thing I just want to note because
people are before and I'll let you lead the case. People are gonna say
loose Spurs are like a bottom five defensive team. The Spurs are in the
sixty eight percent tile of defensive efficiency with Wemby on the court. So it's
not just the highlights you're seeing the fact that he's leading that team to that
type of Like, I know they have some guys in Devin Vessel and Jeremy
soehen and like they have guys who can Wenby is making the Spurs a borderline
elite defensive team despite not having the personnel to do so. This guy,
I like, so estimated plus minus kind of corrects for some of that stuff,
right, Like that's the idea behind it. Is it count It accounts
for like who's out on the floor with you and against you. Wemby is
a ninety eighth percentile defensive estimated plus minus guy. Uh, that's good.
It's hard to be a lot higher than that. He's about to be the
fourth player in the last twenty years to average three blocks in a Steel and
then like forget the stats, just like watch you know that we're recording this
Friday. Chet Holmgren you know, create space on a step back around the
elbow and Wemby just inhales it like there's there's we don't yet we've never seen
a guy shrink the floor as the term that everybody talks about, but like
affect shooters everywhere, like and that's that's like in terms of field goal percentage
and just making it so they're like if chet Holmgren can't hit a step back
with space over wembin Yama, like guess what, no one should ever even
try to shoot that shot. So like we're at we're at a point now
where wehm Benyama's deterrent ability is like has the potential and might already be honestly,
like the greatest we've ever seen, like just in terms of guys not
trying stuff because there's no hope. So I don't know what the metric's gonna
be for that. At some point, someone much smarter than me will figure
out, like how to measure the shots not taken because when Benyama is on
the floor, you know, and you can look at like oh rim attempt
frequency and whatever, but like just as an individual presence, like I just
don't think there's anybody even Gobert. I don't think Gobert effects plays in a
variety of ways like wem Binyama can so. And this is just the beginning,
Like we're gonna gush over him when we talk about all rookie and all
these other categories. So like I don't I couldn't get wem Binyama to first,
you know, to win Defensive Player of the Year. I don't think
there's a momentum for that yet, but like if he doesn't win the next
three to five of these in a row, like I'm gonna be pretty surprised.
Like That's That's where I'm at now. The other thing that impresses me
about him too, is like it's not just the shot deterrence or contests,
but like he's also playing the pass or other players that like he can defend
it like every single player that's involved in an action at once, and so
like you're watching him if if you see him going up against pick and rolls
or handoffs, like he's defending, like he's accounting for everyone at the same
time, no matter where he is on the floor. And I think that's
what kind of swung it for me to put him this high as well.
Is that. Okay, it's not just founded around his rim protection or even
like shot in the turns. It's the fact that he can account for everything.
And yeah, part of that's just his physical tools one. I mean,
that's part of everyone's case, is their physical Like that's why big men
dominate DPOY in the first place, is because they're so huge. And then
just the other thing is like, no, that's a pretty fucking wild IQ
to have as a rookie. Now, I don't know how to wait that
against like, well, there are other players with IQ's but like he already
has like a defensive Player of the Year IQ. Yeah, and I have
Bamana Bayo ahead of him and a number two ultimately because Bamda Bio think has
improved his sort of i'll call it like traditional rimp protect a lot. That's
never been his strong suit. His strong suit is you want him to defend
an isolation? Do you need him to switch? Do you need him to
play zone? He can. I think he's probably the most I mean,
maybe this isn't true, like Wenby now exists, but he wears he can
wear more hats defensively than perhaps anyone in the league except for Wemby. At
this point, and that's a really big deal. Miami is top ten in
defensive rating and they can be locked down when Bam is on the court,
and I just I'm kind of not that I'm shocked, but it makes me
wonder, like, Okay, if Rudy Gobert is playing like this, Wemby's
waiting in the waynes or right there already, and we have Chet Holmgren to
account for. It feels like the Defensive Player of the Year might never happen
for bam Adebayo and we could look back on it and say he's not going
to be the same level of iconic player. But the fact that Tim Duncan
kind of never won a defensive Player of the Year award feels egregious just given
how good Bam is on defense, especially when you look at I know this
isn't part of it, but like we value what happens in the playoff Austin,
we're supposed to scale it forward here and the fact that like it still
just doesn't move nothing doesn't move the needle for him, but it hasn't pushed
him over the top. I just wonder if we'll look back should he not
win a defensive Player of the Year and be like, oh, that feels
like a mistake. Yeah. I think Bam not ever being like a number
one option offensively and also not being likely to win Defensive Player of the Year
is going to make him go down as one of the like most easily forgotten
really great players of this era, because like a lot of what makes him
great is kind of subtle. Like, you know, there's not a lot
of casual fans that are like, god, he's so good on switches.
Remember that time he shut down Terry's Haliburton for like a whole fourth quarter.
Like that's just an under the radar thing. Bam is four for me.
I had Anthony Davis at third on my ballot. Just man, he is.
He is sixth online and I just, god, please go ahead.
I don't reagonize over that. It's well, there's from here down. It's
like you could swap you know, fifteen different players. I think Davis is
just he remains like such an imposing That's the word that comes of mind to
me. Force inside, great defensive rebounder, shop blocker, just still you
know, super long affects shots like in the upper paint, you know,
in the pick and roll he can drop deeper than most guys can and still
quickly recover to you know, turn bad shots into terrible shots if guys try
to take up that space and shoot floaters or whatever. He affects every driver
that is in the you know, vicinity of the basket. And still like,
I know Bam is better at this, but you're not, like you're
not hunting Davis on a switch ever, right, Like you're not You're not
trying to get him out onto you know, the number of times that he's
just stimied Steph Curry like trying to beat him on you know, an isolation
play. I mean, go back to the postseason earlier this year several times,
Like, Davis is still not someone you want any part of in an
isolation set, and he's an awesomer and protector, so like I just love
him. There, Bam is four for me, and then we can just
you know, start doing the participation trophy thing because there's a million guys after
that. So yeah, I have Derek White four. And I'll just say,
I mean, like, this is someone who's under six y five and
has a three percent block rate, which is just the fact that he's able
to disrupt plays from anywhere, whether he's on the ball, off the ball,
is incredible to me, and he has the ability to take on a
tougher individual workload. The Celtics just kind of aren't built, and I guess
I'm penalizing him for it a little bit. And I tend to be higher
on what perimeter defenders do than a lot of others. I picked mckal bridges
was it two years ago as my defensive player of the Year, because I'd
haven't Mobley last year, so maybe the year before. And I recognize that
guys at the RIM have a better chance of maybe impacting the game. Derek
White can impact the game at the RIM. I just I don't like he'll
impact it in transition to impact it in isolation watching him as a joy number
five. So the only guy I had ahead of Anthony Day other guy that
Jalen Suggs, I just monster. I did not check he will is he
He's not going to miss the games threshold, right, I don't have him
in my in my missing it No, yeah, fifty five games. I
want to make sure. I was like, I don't think he's been injured
this year, But I'm always a little bit worried. He is just like
at like good luck trying to like do anything with Jalen Suggs on the court.
It's, Oh, you're not gonna get by him. You can't screen
him, you can't you can't throw an entry pass, you can't throw a
cross court pass, you can't even like run a dribble. Like Jalen Suggs
is just like everywhere all at once. It feels like he's like a magnet
to the ball without like taking these wild gambles to me. And so he
has a case. Honestly, like I think if anyone picked any of these
five to win defensive players, and I'll even say six just because of what
Davis does, and I will say the on off splits are not in favor
of Davis. You just have to look at the personnel other than Lebron he's
played a lot with in some of those offense first lineups, even just like
the lineups in general, the Lakers aren't built to defend outside of Anthony Davis.
And I almost feel bad not having him higher because he has been He's
two thousand plus minutes this year, like he has been available and played through
stuff, so he's been great. But I think, like that's just I
think I'd probably like pretty bullish on this being my top six. But we
can get to like the you know, if you want to go through your
list of others that you had. I wonder if maybe we shouldn't because we're
just gonna give our all defensive teams away because I'm just gonna go down my
list. I mean, I can leave it at my top three and then
like I'll give you. I can give you a couple more if you want
to just have these spreadsheets filled out. But I wonder if maybe we should
wait so we don't just step on the all defensive discussion or do we even
care about that? Maybe we just highlight these guys, Now what do you
think? I think at this point, it's just like maybe that will streamline
the all defensive scussion a bit, all right, So like this is so
Suggs, Like I agonized over Suggs because I don't know what to do with
him versus White versus Caruso versus Chris Dunn in a lower minute role, versus
even like Dennis Smith Junior. Like there's like a half dozen really awesome point
of attack like smallish guards and White is bigger than that, but like in
that bucket. So I think I'll probably go, where are you putting for
me there? Because I haven't even I was just gonna list all the names
you said before I forgot them. Yeah, go for it. So yeah.
Also, if we're just gonna talk about like guys that I had really
high up that, so I have Caruso on my first team, I'll just
say that. And I have Jane McDaniels also up there. We didn't we
haven't mentioned him yet. Yeah, I mean Jane McDaniels certainly has a case.
I don't know that. I feel like he was better last year,
but the level of difficulty he shouldered this season is speak for itself. You
said Dennis Smith Junior that that's like a deep cut. That's a deep cut.
That's not I wouldn't have him on like my top ten, Like I
don't think I even have him on an all defensive team. But I just
like talking about all those guards that are like I thought I was thinking about
Chris Dunn too and was just only wondering, like, does he have the
volume, like the playing time necessary to use her because that's the issue that
I kind of run into with and I know this year, like he's started
a ton of games, but I still run into that issue a little bit.
With Alex Caruso. I guess he's a twenty seven point two minutes per
game, so that makes it a little bit easier, but like he's always
been just sort of always going to play fifteen hundred minutes this season and the
answer predominantly is no, except for last year. So he's someone I've always
struggled with. Bam is online also, I don't I probably put him after
Davis, but you don't need to mess too much with that. I think
that's good. There's a few names that are high up on my list,
but we can talk about those for all defensive I will say, so I
had some other names that you didn't mention, and so I'll throw those there
I have. I will just put Jayden McDaniels here because he factored in.
I did have Chris I thought about Chris Dunn. Alex Caruso factor and these
aren't rankings at this point, just throwing them in the spreadsheet quietly. The
Grizzlies have a top ten defense despite just being blown up by injuries. Jared
Jackson Junior still belongs in this discussion for me, and I wonder if he
would factor in more heavily if the Grizzlies were more relevant. And I'm even
like throwing myself in there, my kind of being too unfair with just like
the injuries that they've had. I also think I mentioned a lot of peaks
and plunges, but like lou Dort belongs in this Herb Jones a guy like
he's gonna factor into the to the all defense discussions. Look, people might
not want to say Chet Holmgren, like he's not really near Wemby as a
defender, but he absolutely is a high level defender already as a rookie,
which is just I know some people don't love this, but like, I'm
so excited. Just watch Chet and Wemby go at each other for the next
year. It's gonna be great. Can I give you a couple that you
haven't mentioned? I have so I have two more? Okay, I Allen,
So I actually have three more names. It was Jared Allen and he
didn't factor in, but I just wanted to like the defense player, but
like Kntavious Caldwell, Pope is here too, and who is the last guy
I had and I have to scroll over to the other sheet. Oh and
I also I had Dylan Brooks high five, Dylan Brooks high fiver. Aaron
Gordon is someone that's gonna make an all defensive team for me. Oh Asar
Thompson warrenton mention, I think, and let's see, that's probably thorough enough
between our two yellow lists there. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's
like anyone egregious that we honestly, I mean, we're way down the ballot,
you could probably throw us up there. Yeah, he gonna make it
all defensive team for you. I can't wait to see that. That's a
I'm gonna spoil it right now and say, no, he's not on one.
If we make up a third team, well, so do you know
who's another name I have here? And I think I don't think again,
I don't think he belongs in the deslater your discussion, but I think you'll
be happy that I'm Jalen Williams sure like wing Jail Williams just been an absolute
monster this year. So look, we named like that's a lot of players.
I think my I feel pretty good in so far as I can feel
good about anything about like my my top my top end guys. I still
didn't know. I think the Wenby stuff is gonna receive a lot of pushback,
not from us necessarily or people to us or people listening to this podcast,
but I think a lot of people think it's gonna be oh prisoner of
the moment thing, and it's not. Yeah, can I give you some
of the sub by the way, the sub sixty five guys that are not
gonna that would be considered if not for the rule, embiid One, Isaac
Evan Mobley, Draymond green og An, Nanobi porzingis Nick Claxton, Like,
the guys that aren't gonna qualify are so maybe not eligible. I don't think.
Well, I think he technically is right now, but I think last
I counted he could miss like two more games. Yeah it was too much.
I'm assuming that. And Dennis Smith Junior, actually I have is gonna
fall short of that too. So he's the sub sixty fiver. So oh
oh gee. That was the other thing. When I was looking, I
was like, wow, a lot. He was good in Toronto but kind
of turned on the jets. Yeah, when he went to New York.
It seemed like if he was he would have made not the defensive Player of
the Year discussion. The I think all defense was hard enough. He would
have made it a lot harder if he if he qualified. I don't know
how you keep him off a team, if he had played enough at the
level that he was showing with the Knicks, like it's because it's just sort
of understood that he's you know, he was always the guy he'd points to
as there's no matchup that he's not suited for, and but he just isn't
gonna get the game. So let's for your seventeenth player on your ballot?
Who do you want? You just said, og christops, Isaac. We
have Giannis there. Who's the other player you think needs to be Oh my
god, there I haven't even got some my snubs either. This is stupid.
We have to stop. There's gonna well we can talk. Just give
me one more name so that we're even. We went, Look, we
went seventeen deps. Well, you put Jared Jackson on mine too, because
he has to be there, just asn't mention. So there we go.
We talked about seventeen players. I don't know who we exclucluded, possibly more
probably that we should talk about. Yeah, and like the other thing too,
is just there's only ten all defense spots. By the way, guys
like this is you could say we spoiled the discussion a little bit, but
these weren't rankings after the top three, so it gets interesting. I'm not
I'm not gonna lie. I'm not looking forward to this next discussion, the
Rookie of the Year. I just like I want to look forward to it,
but I feel like any way we frame it, it's gonna be deemed
so unbelievably toxic. Why not our religious listeners, But I feel like it's
going to be controversial. But take us through your Rookie of the Year pick
and logic. Yeah, I mean I think, look, I had Chet
as Rookie of the Year probably like a month ago, and in hindsight it
might have been wrong then. But I think wemban Yama has hit another level
of late so it's it's wem Banyama like and I feel great about that.
And that's not just like it's just it's sort of just like, well,
yeah, among humans, Chet is the rookie of the year, But like,
there's this extra class now that we have to talk about because when Benyama's
just different. So when ban Yama I think is a more impactful defender,
he's not as efficient of a scorer. We all know that Chet is like,
you know, eighteen eight, three, three and one and he's making
threes and like that's awesome. His role is different. He's not asked to
do the things that Wem Benyama has asked to do. And I think I
just still have this sense that Wem ban Yama is like finding just sort of
like still figuring things out and is just leveling up like by the week almost
and Homegren, you know, is an almost any other year, we would
just be over the moon about Homegren. So Homegren's two obviously, and then
after that I sort of don't care where we go because it's just clearly those
two guys. But it's also clearly when Binyama at the top for me,
So I think it's fair to what you said. And my prediction is Wenby's
gonna win Rookie of the Year. It's like a minus nine hundred, I
think get most sports books, and I do believe that when we do this
exercise in a month or whatever it is, he will be my pick.
Chet Holmgren is my pick right now, because I think this is a full
season award, and I will get so in Wemby's defense, though very quickly
he has Chet beat in Lebron and he's closing in on him in other metrics,
like chet Holmgren ranks twenty first in EPM Victor Wenbnyama's twenty sixth. Chet
Holmgren ranks twentieth in value over replacement player Wemby's nine. And so this is
even when you go to the season long things and and Wemby has Chet beat
in defense of Lebron for people who cares. So when you get to the
catch all metrics, if that's what you like to go by, no,
it's already a discussion. So I don't think it's by a hair now,
what's really There are a few factors that kind of shifted it to Chet for
now for me, and I'm just recognized that if Wemby keeps this up,
he will be my Rookie of the Year, Like this is a full season
award, and so you get into just like the efficiency and the other thing
that matters. By the way, I know some people like to look at
games played, but like Chet has Wemby beat in minutes by like two hundred
and fifty or something like that, Like that's not super insubstantial. Their games
played are of course gonna be a lot, you know, similar fifty nine
to fifty four, so it's not a huge difference, but they haven't beat
by two hundred plus minutes when you've also been so much more efficient than him,
I mean his true shooting percentage. I don't care what you think about
their roles. Sixty four point three to wemy being to fifty six point three,
that's a really big difference. And like he has been comparably effective defensively,
and even when you start to dig into the scoring stuff Victor Wemenyama now,
like even since they move Victor Wemenyama to center, and if you go
back and look at just from February, but like on the season, Chet
has more unassisted buckets than Victor Wembenyama, Like a higher percentage of his made
buckets are coming without an assist than Victor Wembenyama. I think that's interesting because
he's kind of viewed as like he stretches the floor, he'll screen, or
he'll just attack in an open space off the catch and you'll maybe get one
of those other like, you know, the delayed assists. I'll call them
so I have chat right now. But the way that Wemby has been playing
is just and this is something I wanted to get into was I saw and
I think this is the spot to do it. I saw it floating around
And this is without getting into Rookie of the Year Wemby specifically. There was
a question foing around on Twitter, when or if? When when will wen
Be be the best player in the NBA or Ken Victor Wembenyama be the best
player in the NBA, And like the when stuff, it was kind of
meaned where it's like, what do you mean when? As in like future
tense, but there are there was a level of pushback that surprising where a
lot of people seem to truly believe that aside from just you know, the
frame concerns or whatever, that's just like, you know, I can't he's
skinny, but he's put so much more into his body. They just don't
think he's ever going to be the level of offensive player necessary to be the
best player in the league. And I'm curious as to what you think about
Ken. I think the question, is Ken Victor wenberyama be the best player
in the NBA at some point? How quickly do you think it would happen?
What could prevent him from doing it? Just what do you make of
that entire sector of debate? I love this because I was unaware of this
discussion, so I hopefully I am coming to it without being influenced. Can
he be the best player in the league? Like, of course, of
course he can't. Like that's like, that's ridiculous that to say that he
can't. He cannot that that's like, you're just wrong if you say he
cannot the the like. So, I don't know what are the odds that
he has like an Embiid level of like injury frequency. I don't know what
percentage you put that at. It's it's non zero, it's real. Embiid
has at times probably been regarded as the best player in the league. Anyway,
So I don't know. I don't know how how long he How long
does Wenby need to hold that title? Does it need to be for a
year? Like? I think like the the So all that aside, what
you're really asking is, like, so when the current like crop of the
guys you consider that we talked about in MVP as the best player in the
league are like aged out? Is he going to be at the top of
the group that is ascending now or that is you know, you know,
on the younger side, like so that means he's got to be better in
a couple of years than Luca Sga, like Jannis probably or you know,
I'm trying to I'm sure I'm forgetting guys, but just you know, going
through going through the list of guys that are not gonna you know, Lebron
will be gone, Curry will be gone. Why, like all these guys
are gonna diminish to where you don't talk about them that way. You got
to think about Tatum and Booker and like how much better might they get over
the next couple of years. I think I don't know what the percentage chance
is absolutely when Minyama can be the best player in the league. And I
think if you just if I had to guess, he could do it as
soon as like his third year. Maybe I don't know if it would happen
next year. That seems like wildly ambitious, but I wouldn't rule it out
right, Like if he's if he is far and away the best defensive player
in the world, which could like, I would be surprised if that weren't
the case. Next year and he gets a little better offensively, then you're
already talking about, well, he's like top three or four MVP. So
and that's in his second year. I mean that that's an optimistic outlook.
But it's hard for me not to be optimistic about him. I just like,
it's just we don't really talk about this stuff that often, but like
the makeup and his approach and like his maturity and all that stuff, like
you're not gonna have I have no concerns about him not having like the right
you know, off the floor stuff. You know, I don't have any
of those worries. So yeah, I don't. I don't know what exactly
like the debate really drills down to, but like, yeah, he could
be the best player. I would I would be surprised if he weren't in
the conversation as soon as his third year, that is, when did Lebron
enter that discussion. Do you think was he there by year, because I
mean he was kind of Kobe was still there at that time, or at
least people had him in that tier of player. Lebron was certainly the best
player in the league by his fifth season, that's for sure. Yeah,
I think that's right. When was his first like season as the best player
in the NBA, because his first MVP came When was that two thousand and
he won MVP first and he finished in the top ten of MVP voting during
his rookie season. By the way, he didn't win his first MVP award
until two thousand and nine, so that was his sixth season. He was
top five, he was top he finished second in two thousand and six,
So at age twenty one, I think he had a case to be the
best player in the NBA. Feels fair because he certainly wasn't there as a
sophomore. No, And I think I think next year is when we're gonna
have to start like really really having the I can't get there in the second
year, but if in this I think the third year feels like the magic
number to me, if like, if it's gonna happen, we'll have a
really good idea by then, I think so. But what I also wanted
to say here is people are undervaluing his offense because I think of what you
look at the numbers now and they're still a little unimpressive, but like,
he is above league average true shooting. He might even be there now,
but he's above league average true shooting since the Spurs moved him to center.
This is staggering to me. Since they made him their starting five. He
is shooting forty five percent on pull up three pointers and he has made more
pull up three pointers during this stretch than Di'angelo Russell just as a name.
He's made more pull up three pointers during this stretch than Kawi Leonard. Like
that is, that's legit, and he's taking some tough shots. The freedom
to explore absolutely matters. But by the way, and this shift has been
I feel like it's been starker of late, but like the Spurs are running
stuff through him as a facilitator. And so among biggs who averaged at least
twenty five minutes per game during the month of February, you want to guess,
do you want to guess how many had a higher assist rate than Victor
Webber Yama? I mean you'd have like Jokic, it would be I feel
going how many? Yeah, how many? Can you guess? So there's
Jokic, there's Sam No so okay, so I'm already blown away. Then
it's like he's gotta higher assistrate than Bam. I don't know who, like
just what is he's he top five? Uh, he's top five. So
Bam probably doesn't make the cut here because I I filtered it for six'
ten and over. So, like, he has a higher assist rate than
Alprin Shangun, than Kevin Rant, than Nurkic. So it's Jokich, Giannis
Domas, and Palo Bankaro the only bigs who averaged at least twenty five minutes
a game in the month of February with a higher assist rate. And so,
yeah, Wemby's turnover rate can be a little bit higher, but like,
you know what, fourteen percent during that stretch. Given what they're trying
to run through him, there's an offensive ceiling here that I really just don't
think people are accounting for. And even so, let's they run a lot
more stuff through him at the elbows and so just among players, and this
is, by the way, I'm not even breaking down a segment. This
is for the entire season among everyone who is averaging as many elbow touches per
game as Wemby. There's only four total players including Wemby, that have an
assist rate from the elbow of at least twenty with a turnover rate below five.
It's shang Gun, it's Jokic, and it's Pertal and there's Wemby.
And so this is all just yes, some of it's cherry picked, but
like in a sistrate of twenty plus with a turnover right below five, like
that fucking matters, especially when you're getting some actual volume at the elbows.
Now, I will say he's getting fewer elbow touches per game on the season
than Shengun perl Jokic. But like I'm talking about on the season now,
Grant, this isn't adjustince when he was moved to the five, or this
isn't just since February, like this is the entire season. So there's another
And when you're even talking about him in the context of versus chet Homegren,
that might actually be what separates him from chet Holmgren is more than anything is
the fact that he can And again I don't know how much of this is
the freedom to explore, the license to explore, but he can create his
own shots and he's also setting teammates up in more complicated ways or as the
hub, whereas Chet does not. Now is that a function of Chet's role
or lack of ability. I think it's probably a combination of both. They're
never gonna need him to do that in Oklahoma City when you look at how
they're built. But it's also why you know, I'm sure you saw the
rumors that the Spurs are ready to make a run at Trey Young over the
summer, and pardon me, is like, if you have wem beyond defense
and Trey's just there and he's gonna give the level of effort that he has
in the past year and a half or whatever, that'll work. And I'm
also kind of like that will dilute what Wemby's doing on offense, and I
don't need to see that, because I really do think and it's even you
could throw this out the window and just say, like, there's a chance
that he becomes a more Giannis was the best player in the NBA at some
point without having the deepest offensive armory. I'm not getting into the he has
no bag, but he was never He's been the primary initiator, but it's
never in ways like he needs to get going downhill where it's Wemby can do
that in other ways. I'm not saying he's better than Yannis right now.
I'm just saying if someone like Giannis can get to be the best player in
the world for multiple seasons at a time while being more of just like this
force of nature on offense and then the best defensive player in the league,
Victor Weben Yon can absolutely do the same thing, especially if he's going to
be tasked with doing I don't want to say more complicated stuff, but just
more like have a more comprehensive offensive package. And I think the people who
believe, even if they think Wemby can be the best player, and they
don't think it can happen on the same timeline that it did for Lebron,
just because Giannis's role, it took him a while to get there. Same
with Jokic, because one I think with both those guys, the national public
just took too long to catch up to them. But the other thing was
they were brought along more gradually. Where it's been there's been layers to Victor
Webenyama's role in usage this year, but it's been very much overall baptism by
fire when you look at the entire package, if you want to, like,
this is someone who could be the best player in the NBA by I'm
not going to predict it next year, but kind of like when Lebron entered
the discussion year three and year four, he could be better than Luca,
He could be better than Shake Gilgris Alexander at that point. And I think
that it's just people just look at him as like, well, it's because
of what he's doing on defense. It's no, there's at there's a super
star offensive player here. And this isn't Anthony Davis level play finishing either,
Like Davis has never really expanded his game beyond the confines of being a play
finisher, and when he does, with the exception of the Bubble, it
doesn't always go well. Like we're already seeing Webby do a lot of stuff
when you look at as a facilitator that Anthony Davis never really been tasked with
doing. At least that's anecdotal. I didn't dig into the numbers and look
at ad in New Orleans. Think about though, the what we've just discussed,
right, like what you said, the names, the names we've thrown
out like well it's shingoon Yannis Davis, like you could throw whatever else.
But the thing is you're saying, yeah, he'd be like those guys who
are super different, except could do more. Like this is why comparisons fail
with him, because there isn't There's no such thing as a guy who can
be the best elbow facilitator in the league, the best rim protector in the
league, the best off ball defender in the league, the best pull up
shooting big in the league. Like there that does not exist. So it's
like, I think the fact that we have to invoke so many different players
that are great at certain things but have real weaknesses and still come up saying
like, yeah, he's kind of like them, except like doesn't have the
flaw, Like that might be the best possible argument for like, of course,
this guy's gonna be the best player in the league if he doesn't get
hurt, like we need maybe we should just forget the injury thing, like
who care? Of course, yeah, everyone could be great if they didn't
get hurt, But like he is, you can't find a guy that you're
like, he's he's just like this guy. And that's been true, Like
from day one, really in terms of his potential, He's like, yeah,
he might, he might be as good as Anthony Davis at everything Anthony
Davis is good at, except also he's a better pull up shooter and he's
better off the ball. Like there's just it's there's no there's no guy out
there you can point to. That is like a good approximation for him,
and I think that's probably the best endorsement you can give him. Yeah,
just like that, that entire package. Now, I am curious on one
thing that I found a little interesting with where you're going when it comes to
the Rookie of the I'm getting back to the Rookie of the Year discussion very
quickly. Last year you ended up picking Jalen Williams over Paloll Bank Cao,
And it feels like there's the inverse of Jay Dubb came on later than Pale
Bank Caro did, and this is the inverse where Wemby's doing the same thing.
So you have like consistency there, but like you valued Ja Dubb's efficiency
a ton, and I'm just wondering, what's the difference when it comes to
chet. Is it just because the defensive gap is, like you believe it's
that massive. I'm not. I'm not even quite. I'm just very curious
how you approach that when before we got on our when's Wenby gonna be the
best player? Thing? I was gonna say, like, my logic is
is inconsistent because I based my Jalen Williams pick last year on like, well,
he's just so much more efficient and ban Cao has like one way to
be great and he's not efficient as a scorer and blah blah blah. Like
so it seems like I flipped that because I'm like, oh, Chet's more
efficient, but his job's easier because he's got better Plt's like that's the argument
you would have made, you know, the other way last year. It's
the defense. And it's just like the degree again that it's comparing Williams and
Bancaro is like yeah, they're kind of like similar, you know, they've
got their differences and there's it's just like wemben Yama is just I think he's
just on a different level, Like it's a it's a he's a tear up,
like he's not comparable to other players, let alone other rookies. Like
Chet is great. I love Chet I think he's gonna be phenomenal, like
he's gonna make ten All Star Games whatever. Like however, ridiculous you want
to get why didn't you say eleven Grant? Yeah, I just think Wemby
is different. So it is something if I need, if you want to
pin me down, it's like, yeah, the defense is a pretty big
differentiator, uh, for that argument, And I think I just I just
can't be too hyperbolic about Wemben Yama. So yeah, you are right though,
like my logic for picking Jada over ban Caroo last year should be flipped
in this case. But I do think so when he really started to shift
earlier than Jay Dubb, like made that kind of leap, and so I
would understand it like from that, and like the race has been close.
I think the race has been closer for longer than it was with Palow and
Jada. I also just don't think it was that particularly that close last year.
But when you're looking at role difficulty that By the way, this is
me being inconsistent, but I'm I'm already saying that Wenby is going to win,
and I think he will be my pick by the end of the year.
But to date, taking the whole season into account, I roll with
chat so who we both had the same third? Because we already said it,
So do you want to do you want to reveal? Do we have
the same third? I was just gonna ask you who your third is?
All right, I have Brandon Miller. Who do you have? I think
it has to be Miller. I thought about two other guys, but I
think, I mean, Miller's kind of harder to evaluate than maybe these other
couple guys. Uh, but maybe there's three others. But I think Miller
has shown a ceiling. The knock was, you know, he's gonna be
a good role player. I don't see first option whatever. I still am
not sure that's possible for him, but we saw some signs that, like
it's a little more likely than most suspected that Miller might be, you know,
an all star level guy that can be your first option for for chunks
of games or maybe season. So I think it probably has to be Miller.
Really disappointed that Scoot is not going to factor into this discussion, like
at any point, considering we're able to look over the moon about him.
There's still time, but like as of now, Scoot doesn't even belong on
an All Rookie team. No, not close, so I'm gonna. I
would say. The thing that's impressing most about Brandon Miller is we've seen some
of his efficiency from the perimeter, like hold or actually be good. He's
shooting like thirty eight percent on threes as we record this, despite the metal
ball injury. He's definitely been overtask with some facilitation, but getting that information
out what he can do. I think he's done a better job of creating
his shot and getting separation than I assumed he was going to do at this
level. One. I've just been really impressed with the defense as a rookie.
Like, no, he's not in the all defense discussion like Homered and
Wemby are, but like to someone positionally who you can put on some really
tough covers and he will make them work to get the ball or prevent them
from taking shots. That's really impressed me. And so they have found I
think Mark Williams is really good. He's been injured obviously for much of this
season, but like they found their second building block. I think it's always
a little bit iffy when we're talking about like bigs and building blocks when they're
you know, a niche archetype big, like a Williams or a Jailen Duran,
but like Brandon Miller to me is just like, oh you have Lamelon,
you have Brandon Miller. Like that's a real baseline off which to direct
your entire franchise. Yeah. Agree, So in I don't know how much
you care about the order, but the guys we really have to mention here,
Brandon Pajemski, Jim Hawkes, Derek Lively are kind of my next three.
I don't know, those are my next three too, and I'll include
them in a massive dump of other names that just like we're here. Yeah,
but it's funny that you mentioned the same three. I was relieved to
find out, and maybe we should have mentioned this that the sixty five game
minimum doesn't apply to all rookie or Rookie of the Year because Derek Lively would
not hit it and he absolutely belongs. Yeah, the only so I have
the next three names you have as well the other guys I would throw on
there, uh Keyante, George Amen Thompson, and I think that's the only
ones you don't have up there that I have on my uh my short Thompson's
with a lot better he and again because the game's minimum doesn't work. But
I think he gets to a point where it's like when you're looking at the
total minutes played and where he ranks there right now, it's just tough for
me to be like, you know, but I'll be curious. See what
your all rookie teams look like, is what I'll say. I think you've
got a pretty good look at him right now. Terrible podcasting we are,
So where do you want to go next? Do you want to start with
all that? You just want to segue right into all rookie? Yeah,
let's do all rookie since we're kind of on the topic that. Hell,
I'm gonna switch our windows now for anyone who's watching. I have so many
tabs open. It's it's an unhealthy amount. It's scary. So, uh,
do you like my headings on the what we have for the all league
teams? Goodbye positions forever was always rookie? Was always like positionless though,
so that there's at least that all right, there's no mystery about what like
the first our first four of our l NBA first team, it's weamby chet
I think and I think Brandon Miller is on there. Yeah, so oh,
you're talking about our first three for this, No, I think our
first four, Well, yeah, our first three are there for sure.
But I think I think Pods is probably an all rookie first teamer at this
point. I would agree with you. I actually think we didn't get into
this when maybe now's a good time to get into this. He's been more
valuable than Haimi Hawks to me. Yeah, And I'm also prepared to entertain
I didn't put him here. I want to make it clear, I'm prepared
to entertain that not only have Brandon Miller, Victor orm Miyama, Tred Holmer
have been there, but Cason Wallace. I might take him over Haimi Hawks
right now. Just the lack of shooting and then a three point percentage for
just like it rankles me in a weird way. So maybe I'm like kind
of counting that too much against him. But I'm curious where you, like,
did you consider putting anybody like could you consider putting Derek Lively above Hawk?
Did you get to like any of those points? I, in fact
do have Lively on my first team over Hawkes. Oh, okay, and
now the the No. Sixty five game limit is a factor there obviously because
I don't think Lively can hit it. But Lively to me showed like a
signature, like a like a a staying skill, like he's gonna be a
really good interior defensive player that can move and he can catch lobs, Like
I understand what Derek Lively can be great at. Hawkes is kind of jack
of all trade z, which is not like a knock. It's just I
think I value that a little less than I know I'm going to get this
couple, these couple of awesome things from Lively. So Hawkes is a second
teamer for me, like pretty pretty easily because I considered him for a first
team. But uh yeah, I think I like uh as the first team
a a little better. I had Hawkes just over Lively in part because of
the when I first put it together, there was like the game's minimum of
play, but there is there is a minutes differential there, and so that
mattered to me in this one. And then also there's just more of a
uh there's more positional versatility when it comes defensively to Hawkes than there is for
Derek Lively who has been He's on my second team. Just to be clear,
he's been absolutely uh spectacular, And so I'm assuming you have Jimi Hawkes
on your second team, correct like that? So who do you have?
I will say my next one, and I'm bullish on this again, I
consider him for first team. I'm like all case and Wallace every first like
as a plugging white guy who defends his ass off and yeah, you'd like
to see him be more aggressive with his own offense or as a passer,
like they don't need him to do that right now. He's just come in
and been like, what, maybe they're like sixth because their best players have
been chet J. Dubb throw Lou Dort and they are shay of course,
like he's been. Case of Walla has been more valuable them than Josh Giddy.
That might be the best way to put that. Yep, Nook,
Wallace is a no brainer. Uh, He's definitely on my second team.
Thought about him for first as well after So this is where it gets difficult
because there's like four guys that I feel like have to be there and we
have three spots. So the my definites are are Asar Thompson again, the
idea of like, whatever else happens, I know he's going to be one
of the best defensive players in the league for as long as he keeps his
athleticism. Do you have Okay? Good, you have him too? Yeah.
If there's overlap, I'm gonna include mine with yours. I just don't
know what to do here. So so here are the choices, and maybe
we can talk this out Keyante George uh, Amen Thompson and Bilal Coolibali and
we can only keep two. And like, I'm agna, I think you
could just kick out Amen Thompson because of the like playing time stuff. But
like, am I sure that he's not going to be better than maybe both
of those guys? No? Uh so are you do you have the same
issues? Do you have those three guys? Or is there someone I'm forgetting
or is it easier for you shout out Grady Dick for making a late,
very late season push. But do you know who's the other one that I
really want to include? I just don't know. I don't know that I
could pick him over any of these guys. He just does some nasty work
defensively. Do you think you could guess I'm drawing a blank, but I'm
sure I'll be bothered him. Mani Kamara played a ton of minutes too quiet.
Well yeah, like that's almost to a detrimentate point when you look at
what he's done on the offensive end this year, I did not. I
will say, so, I'll put him here. He would have made like
if there was a third team as an honorable mention, I think, so
you have Kante George, Aman Thompson and Blacoola Bali. I went with Blakoula
Bali and Keyant George like and that was I felt pretty good about that,
and it was the minutes thing did it for me. I also think when
you kind of look at I think the body of work with Blakool Bali wire
to wire, where he's been more valuable on offense despite not getting the usage
he deserves and then really just covering the opponent, opposing team's best player a
lot of the time all season, Like, then that minute's gap between him
and am and Thompson matters to me. And then Kanta George is being saddled
with more playmaking, more initiation, more creation in general. That turned the
tables again. Maybe I'm waiting playing time too much and who knows. Maybe
I'm and Thompson just winds up bridging that gap because he ranks sixteenth in total
minutes played among rookies, and so it's not outside the realm of possibility that
he works himself into. Like Cason Wallace Territory, who I thought about for
first team. Yeah, I think I think Kolibally is the easiest one for
me to make sure is on there, and then I'll I think, I
mean, I'll just go George too. But I think I think you have
maybe you have to go George because like I'm pretty sure he's gonna be at
least good and maybe very good at a at a vital skill, which is
like he's gonna be a good creator for himself and others with the ball,
and Thompson's shooting limitations kind of just mean that, like he's definitely be good
defensively and in transition. I just don't know if if Thompson can be the
kind of driver of offense that George I think is going to be able to
be. So I think I think that's what we have to do there.
I would put Kamara if I had a third team on there. And now
we're coming Cam Ridmore belongs there. He just doesn't have the sample size yet
for me. You know who the advanced numbers love to like a laughable degree
because all he does is catch good passes and dunk. It is Trace Jackson
Davis. Do you have him? That would be your honor? Will mentioned
I'd put him in an honorable mention all right? I did not have him
there. He's like he's one, two, three fifth among rookies in in
EPM, which is like hilarious. He might not hit the games played either
if that mattered, which it doesn't. But I also had because just the
offense isn't there yet. But I also had Anthony Black for what he can
do defensively. I don't even know. Did I have a fifth honorable mention
on here? Let's go back to my docu. So I have like the
the long list of like dwop Reef Greedy Dick has come on lately. There's
also just like Gigi Jackson. He's only at five hundred plus minutes, so
that's kind of tough. But that was someone else. Like I said,
I've been impressed by Ben Shephard's defense as a rookie. It's just now you're
getting into sub five hundred guys, and so I'm wondering, like, at
what point is it just like the Scoot belong here by virtue of playing twelve
hundred minutes and that number is going to go. I don't know how to
because he's had some really high level moments and hit some difficult shots and made
some really gnarly passes. I think that how about frame it this way?
There are only two guys and that's Wemby and Chet that I'm sure are going
to be better players than Scoot in the end on this list. Like,
I still think we can't give up on the possibility that Scoot is better than
everybody but those two. But like, if we're just that that's a we
put him on here, if we just want to be like on the right
side of history thing, you know, it's like, hey, we didn't
forget this guy who became an All star point guard. I'm trying to think
Marcus Sasser. We haven't talked about Marcus Sasser at all, just I mean,
because the Pistons never played the right guys, but really good shooter.
I don't know what else he's going to be able to do, But I
want to give throw him a mention there. The other one that I'm convinced
had he just been playing from day one would be here is Taylor Hendrix.
Oh man, you're never gonna give up on that guy? Why would Well?
I don't think the Jazz have either, But like I think that he
I think he's just gonna be really good. So the I will say,
it feels like I don't know what were there like probably eight or nine all
rookie spots that were really easy, Like it really just maybe it's eight because
it's the black Klabali Kiante, George Aman Thompson, Timanti Kamara stuff. And
I'm just curious, like how many minutes does Cam Whitmore end the season with
and did? Like is he just so ridiculously impactful that you have to put
him on a second team anyway? Yeah, I mean just throw just throw
Whitmore on there for me to to finish it up, because I think that's
another potential right side of history when you want to at least make sure you
got him, like, hey, we mentioned this guy. Yeah, look
we said Grady Dick and wop Wreath. Like I think that that really safeguards
us against people thinking that we don't Cared Jackson. Nobody knows is who Gigi
Jackson is outside of Memphis. I feel like because he had like some just
games that popped. But yeah, I mean so yeah, there's just Memphis.
By the way, we didn't mention Taylor Jenkins and Coach of the Year
the fact that it's like they still kind of play hard on the defensive end.
He probably deserves some love for like the body of work that he has
done there. So shout out Taylor Jenkins. Let's get our twelfth coach on
our coach of the year. About it twelve it might have been twenty second
coach more so, we gotta do all defense. Now. God, I
hate I just hate all of this. I love it, but I hate
it. You ever see that Tony Horton from P ninety X, Oh yeah,
but I love it. That's what That's what these awards are for me.
Tony Horton, by the way, it still looks great. And he's
like sixty five or something five maybe sixty something. He's in his sixties.
Well, shout out to him. I want to look like that. But
I guess that means I feel like, are we sure that he's is he
a Natty or not is the real question. I don't know, all right.
I think all that we really did kind of step on at all defensive
in our dpo wy that's the last one, right, all defensive, Well
we have all NBA too, if you care about that. Oh shit,
that's a little bit like that. Let's let's just get all defense out way.
Okay, easy first team for me? Well, no easy, first
three guys on the first team because I've had them in my top three.
Gobert, Wemby ad Are on my all defensive first team. Now I'm questioning
because hearing you talk about all defenses, questioning why I have these next two
guys on there over some other players justlining's sake. I'm not ranking these,
but like I bam was second, but I'm putting inferred on the first team.
So I actually did rank my first team all defense was easy, which
is part of like the reason I went to it, because like I ranked
my god like my top five or six so that I would know what it
was. And so I ended up with Rudy Gobert, Victor Webinyama, bam
Adebay, Derek White, and Jalen Suggs on my first team. Anthony Davis.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, even though like he's on
my set. First guy that was the toughest, like those six I really
did labor over. Okay, I'm so suggestible because I'm gonna change the other
two guys I had on my first team based on the argument. So I'm
gonna put bam on my first team and I'm gonna put Derek White on my
first team. Okay, I mean, why does that make you inconsistent because
that's not who I have written down on the sheet I'm looking at when I
decided it was on even no one needed to know that. Great. I
think it's good to change your mind when you get confronted with UH with good
information. So kudos see you for making good arguments. I clearly can't handle
the frozen columns because I'm just putting all these weird people like in bizarre places.
But so yeah, you have Rudy Gobert, Victor Woman, Yama,
Anthony Davis, Bamana, Bio Derek by the way, all defense rookies like
there's been I think it was Tim Duncan, David Robinson and like Kakeem are
the only ones to have made that I should look that up, maybe while
you're going through some of your other but I don't think it's happened since Tim
Duncan, and the fact that the Spurs might and I'm not even talking,
I don't even know if those were first team selections. So, like I
said, i'll look it up now. But the fact that the Spurs just
have these rookies that are just probably making All Defense, but you've had three
of them, that's ridiculous, right. I don't know if anyone's ever made
this argument or this observation, but it tends to go pretty well when the
Spurs have the number one pick. Historically, they just they tend to find
a generational superstar with pretty high success. I pay. I think I need
to put these next two guys because they were originally first teamers, but I'll
put them on my second team along with Oh wow, so it just came
up. Here's everyone who made an All Defense team as a rookie. There's
been five Grant David Robinson, is that badding? Yeah? David Robinson,
Kareem, Tim Duncan, Hakeem and Ma New Bowl A New Bowl, Yeah,
that would have that'd be one that would trip you up. If you
had to name the five with three strikes, I don't think you get I
would get. I only would have gotten three because I don't think I would
have remembered that Kareem made it for sure, so I definitely would have only
gotten three. Yeah, all right, So on my second team, I'm
gonna put Alex Caruso, Jade McDaniels. All right, all right, And
since I bumped Bam and Derek White up, that leaves chet is gonna be
on my second team. Ooh uh. And then I'm gonna go with Herb
Jones. Like the length there. Also, the Pelicans are elite on defense,
and I would argue he is the primary reason why that was part of
my thinking is you look at it and it's like, well, how because
they play We talked about this a little bit, but it's like Zion and
Ingram and Valentiunis and McCollum, like, yeah, they're all, you know,
better than they've been, but like, how is this happening? It's
like Dyson Daniels and I don't think it's just him, So I Larry Nance
doesn't play enough. So yeah, I think I think Herb deserves a lot
of credit there and Willie Green for that matter. So whoever, I Oh
Aaron Gordon. I feel like you're not going to have Aaron Gordon, and
I understand that, but like ability for him to play center. I think
he's one of the maybe the most underrated isolation defenders in the league. I
don't know what the numbers are, this is pure eye test, but there's
just like no one ever has an advantage going against him. I feel like,
regardless of position, unless you're just like Embiid, you know catches it.
You know at the rim, sure Gordon's going to struggle there. But
on the perimeter, Gordon is not someone you go at. He just swallows
up possessions. I just think he's he's like criminally underrated as a defender.
So I gotta have him on my second team. That's a good I didn't
even I have him on like my ultra long list. But I don't think
if we built a third team, which I didn't pencil in, that he'd
be on mine. I'll throw my second team here all at once. Oh
KCP, I love it. So yeah, the matchup difficulty with what he
is, so I have ad that shouldn't be a surprise. Can take me,
it's called go look at the matchup difficulty, like just the players he's
defending. Lou Dort, though single handedly, has shouldered the in terms of
when you're looking at the guarded usage and just the matchup difficulty per b ball
Index. Among anyone to have a thousand minutes this year, no one has
had a heavier defensive workload than lou Dort. And I think that, like,
there are so many moving parts to the Thunder offense, and I recognize
that. I think when you look at a KCP or Herb Jones, who's
also on my second team, or Alex Caruso, there's like a baseline there
and lou Dort can drop below that for them. But like his peak to
me is just like, oh no, he'll shut down one through four.
Someone one through four, And Herb Jones is kind of right there. But
like just the level of like the volume that he does it at, I
feel like Dort does it on a slightly larger scale. I have them both
on second team. It's the same difference. I think Herb Jones, we
didn't mention him among most improved players. He might have, like just given
the stuff that he's kind of done as a driver this year, and and
even as a three point shooter, like a super deep cut for that.
And then Alex Caruso is just he remained exhaustive and he was not initially on
there, but then hearing you talk about him before in the in the Defensive
Player of the Year discussion, I was like, Yeah, I don't know
why I'm penalizing him for minutes when he's probably gonna log a career high in
minutes this year. And I'm pretty sure I had him on a an all
defense team last season. So there are a lot of and we went through,
like we already did go through a bunch of different names that could make
it. I consider I think, actually, did I actually officially build my
third team? I might have. Oh, I started to so I have
the three toughest cuts for me, I guess we're Jared Jackson, Junior Chet
Holmgren and I feel like this one might surprise you. But Jay Dubb,
oh really no, that does surprise me. But I'm not mad at it.
Did you have like anyone that was super tough like when it came to
honorable mentions? Yeah, I kind of did put together a third team.
And then I have literally like fifteen snubs that I agonized over. So Jalen
Suggs would be on my third team if such a thing existed. Jared Allen
would be there. Who do I? Oh? Jannis I put there?
And then Chris Dunn NSR Thompson. I think he just named six players?
Did I Suggs, Allen, Jalen Suggs? Who else did you have?
You had a Chris Dunn NSR. Wow, you were really high on this
rookie class. Huh. I would have Dave Daniels, who I feel like
just slipped a tad this year. Maybe I'm wrong. You can say I
don't watch enough of the Wolves. That's fine. He would certainly have made
my third team. Who want to give my final third teams? But I
should be spicy and just go with Aaron Gordon and say that you sold me
on it. I feel like I think it comes down to Jared Allen or
Dylan Brooks for me, and I just don't know what to do. I'm
gonna say, Dylan Brooks like high five or Dylan Brooks, can I give
you like fifty snubs? We already talked about the sub sixty five ers.
I guess in defensive player of the year, so you don't need to go
through those guys. Dort was the snub. Jared Jackson was like an impossible
snub. I feel terrible that he's not on there. People will be mad
if we don't say SGA because he's going to lead the league in steels probably
and has just been a good defender. But you do such a good job
of insulating and optimizing him, and that's again, it's still an ability,
and he's been great, But to say he's been one of the fifteen most
impactful defenders this year just feels a little like a stretch. I'm not saying
you're saying that's why he's a snub. So do you know who leeds the
league in defensive estimated plus minus? It's a certain New York Knicks center.
Is it? Isaiah Hartenstein? Is Isaiah Hartenstein? He's not that Obviously,
he's not the best defender in the league, but like, I just got
to mention him because he's been really good and has been asked to just do
stuff that. I mean, can you imagine like three years ago that like
this is who Hartenstein has become where it's just like, yeah, he's the
best center on the Knicks, Like that's just so watching him with Clippers,
that does I mean to lead the league in any just catch all defensive metric
is wild. So yeah, I recognize that, but this like doesn't surprise
me that he is this good. Like I think moving forward, there's a
real chance that he makes more sense for them than Mitchell Robinson. Yeah,
by the way, ranks like twelfth in you got them well, and they're
both on good contracts, so you can just I mean, harden Sound is
gonna get paid here eventually, but he's tible. I feel like we just
have to he needs mentioned, even though you know nobody's watching him this year
and he's still kind of mostly an off ball guy. Brook Lopez warrants to
mention I think Drew Holliday, Kawhi, Anthony Edward. I was gonna say
Kawhi has been tough because there's been moment like he's still choosy. Yes,
it feels like, yeah, so that's why I didn't have him. I
do think so two players had they We mentioned og had Obi already, right,
Like he's just not going to make the threshold. What I'm talking about
players who aren't going to make the threshold that. I feel like I would
have considered you said, Jonathan Isaac, you said Joel Embiid. This is
the guy that I'm convinced I might have even had him on first team if
you would have told me he played in sixty five games this year. Can
you guess? Is it Draymond? Oh? Okay, that's a good one,
but that's not it. I don't I mean Claxton Maybe, No,
I don't have it. Tarry Eathan, Oh yeah, god, what is
it? A stress reaction? Right, like he's just he might be done?
Yeah, and like they just seem to not know what's going on.
And they said it was ema Udoka. It said that, oh he This
isn't the exact words that he was, but he kind of fibbed a little
bit about how much pain he wasn't in, and I'm like, well,
isn't there like someone there to prevent, like to understand, like, oh
no, like stuff's like it doesn't feel like they have a great grasp of
his injuries. My point, he was nearing I think there was a report
that said he was nearing return on February first or around that time. And
then like you fast forward coming out of the All Star breaking, like we
have no idea where the fuck is going? Yeah, can you imagine if
a Rockets lineup that I mean, I don't know where the scoring is.
But like Jabari Smith's gonna be is AND's gonna be a good defense under you
have Brooks, you have Aman Thompson, and you have Tari Easton. Like
theoretically you could play those guys together. I don't know too yeah in there,
I mean, you know, aeroll Man, if I understand, we
could say this every year because let's say, let's say Draymond had been well,
Draymond might be a good case study because if Draymond missed twenty four games,
like he's probably someone we still would have considered for all defense anyway,
Yeah, for a minute, you have to his impact since he's been back
has been massive. I think the Warriors are top ten on both ends since
he's been back offense. So like, you know, I will just say
I'm trying to feel like I remember the last time, uh where I said
that, like if these players had played more, my first team All defense
would have looked a lot different where it would have been Draymond and Tari Easton.
That's like a very wild caveat to say, but it's also just I
think Tari Easton is that good? And we know Draymond Yeah, is that
good? That's probably good? Right, I think we've mentioned thirty some odd
guys so far. Uh, hopefully we mentioned Giannis, right I didn't.
Maybe he should be on my third team, ass he's tough. Giannis or
Dylan Brooks or Jared Allen or j dub like you could Chris Dunn if he
just played more. Yeah, Dennis Smith Junior if he played more. He's
a sub sixty five guy, I think. And like if Jimmy Jimmy Butler,
if Jimmy Butler had played more, we would have to talk about him
probably too, I'd think even you know, I porzingis, Yeah, it's
ridiculous. There's way too many good defensive players with that, or we just
don't know what we're talking about when it comes to defense, which ill is
really freaking hard to evaluate. Like that's the one, by the way,
where it's like I look at the metrics and I'm like, Okay, it
says this, but I'm inclined to not that. My eye test is a
lot better. And if someone's showing up like in the same metrics that I
tend to trust. I'll I'll wait it. But like that's the one where
it feels like purely anecdotal, Like there's you could look at the steels and
the blocks and the rim like it's easier for biggs because so much of what's
quantified for defense, it's most accurate when it comes to the what what the
bigs are doing around the basket stuff is what I'm saying. But you know,
it's been really good around the baskets get this year, though Jane McDaniels,
maybe I should have put them on the second team, but that's true.
Sorry, I got between the two of us, we've accounted for everybody.
I'm pretty sure, well, no, we're someone's gonna point out that
we like, why isn't Trey jung On here? Look at how hard he's
been trying this year. The way that we've now romanticized Trey Young's defense is
a little disgusting. I'm I'm not gonna lie, is Trey Young the most
improved? Just because Okay, so we're up to all NBA and I was
thinking about this, so I wanted to ask you because I was trying to
think, like, well, the way that we went about MVP, like
I didn't rank after five NESSA or I didn't rank after six. But it's
like your top ten should align with your yeah first two on MEIA teams,
And then I'm like, well, does it because there's a difference between Is
there a difference I'm asking you between this player and I think, like maybe
a perfect case study is, let's look at Jalen Brunson. Is there a
difference between, well, this player is so valuable to this team this season
versus I'm just looking for who are the fifteen best players in the NBA that
qualify under the criteria right now? And that made me adjust some of my
All NBA returns. So I think the only distinction I'm I'm pretty sure,
and I mentioned this that I draw between MVP and All NBA is that if
you're over the sixty five game threshold and you qualify, I really don't care
how many minutes you've played, Like I'm just gonna cut it off and everything's
equal over a certain point. So that's different because you know, look like
if the word valuable is in the in the award title, then I have
to consider like volume of contribution as it relates to value, and All NBA
feels much more like which guys are the best this year? And I think
even All NBA has like this element of like, yeah, but who's actually
the best? You know, independent, like we'll think about this year mostly,
but maybe like fifteen percent of this is kind of like the let's I'm
gonna nudge you and be like, yeah, but this guy's better. We
all know it, right, Like there's some part of that. So All
NBA is a little fuzzier in some ways. But the big difference is just
the minutes don't really matter to me beyond a certain point. So I'm going
to start. I think we should start here. There are four locks for
first team All NBA, correct, so I will slot them in accordingly,
and I'm assuming these are the same locks that you have. Absolutely Now,
fifth gets interesting and I ended up defaulting though to who I had fifth on
my MVP valet, which was Donovan Mitchell. Okay, I have Kawhi in
that fifth spot, which I feel like, if we do this again in
a month, I feel like that might be the right answer. Well that's
ultimately so that's why I didn't consider Mitchell for this spot. Really seriously,
I thought about Tatum, I thought about Durant, and I thought about Haliburton,
and I gave it to Kawhi. On the I like nudged myself and
I was like, yeah, but you know who's the best, right,
Like it's Kawhi. Let's not mess around. So that I just tucked myself
into like Kawhi is the scariest two wig guy in the league sometimes still,
and I'm just not going to not put him there if he's healthy. So
I considered because I was, like I said, trying to move away from
value and it was like the same with the minute I considered Tyrese here,
I considered Kevin Durant here, and I had a mini discussion on YouTube the
YouTube comments with the rubik'scal about I might just be discounting because he just felt
like, I don't want to say, an actively damaging defender for the first
part of the year, but just not as engaged. And I'm now wondering,
like, well, that was probably because Booker and bal were injured for
a good part of that first stretch, but Durant, Kawhi was there.
I look at Donovan mitchelone, I just really do appreciate the level of creation
and table setting. He shouldered for so much of this year during those injuries,
And I do think while you shouldn't be detracting from other players because their
team wasn't injured, that the anecdotal element of it does can still give you
a bump. I do think that his spot might be flimsy as well.
When I was actually listening, I was reading or listening to someone I can't
remember now that was doing all NBA teams and don Mitchell wasn't even on like
their third team. Wow, And that felt like egregious to me. Is
that egregious or no? Was he fringed for you? No, Mitchell was
a no brainer second teamer for me. He's He's easily in the second team
along with Tatum and Durant and Halliburton because I thought about those guys for first
team. So you had Jason Tatum, Kevin Durant, and Halliburton on your
second team along with Donovan Mitchell. Yeah, Kevin Durrant, Jason Tatum,
Donovan Mitchell, and who is Otari's Haliburton? Yeah, which is just I
don't like he. I think he I ended up cutting him for my second
team, and I'm still just like not feeling great about it. I did
have I did have Tatum, I had Durant, Dono Mitchell was on my
first team. I had Kawhi Leonard was there too, So that aligns.
Uh. I this So this is what it came down to for me.
Is I was thinking Halliburton, Lebron and Devin Booker were like the players that
these final two spots came down and you have one more spot left right,
I do. And you haven't mentioned this player yet. Uh, Anthony Davis.
No, Steph Curry is Steph Curry. Steph Curry. I get that.
I just feel like still and maybe this is part of the Warriors construction
that he just hasn't been as thermonuclear af on the offensive end, like the
ability to uplift imperfections with Golden State. But I don't know if that's just
like anecdotally untrue. I mean, he's just you look at the numbers and
the three point volume and the efficiency and the way he bends defenses. I'm
not gonna I'm not gonna quibble with you. Yeah, I mean the numbers
are down, it's just that like they're down to twenty eight four and five
on you know, forty one percent shooting on you know, it's from deep
like he's still to me, I still think we're kind of bad at appreciating
like what he does to defenses. Still, like you know, somehow,
I don't know, we're we're like fifteen years into this thing, and it's
still like we don't totally appreciate how great he is. Like I think,
I think Lebron so, I mean, I'll just I might as well.
Just everybody you talked about is like gonna be on my third team. So
maybe that's maybe if you go with your third team, like so you said
Lebron's second team. I have him on the third team. I have Booker
on the third team. I don't know if I have anybody else from your
second team. Yeah, I'll throw my third team up there so that I
could type yours in. But I have Tyre's Haliburtons, don't I feel like
he should be on the second team for me. I just the defensive deficiencies,
and he's been since he's come back from injury, just not as good.
And so I'm just looking at Lebron Andy, by the way, I
think, honestly, I know I had Lebron ahead of Booker and the MVP
Valot. But I probably am more likely if I had to. If you
said, no, you have to move Tyres on the second team, I'm
probably bouncing Lebron or Tatum before Booker. I'm not just not gonna lie.
I value his playmaking so much and the stuff that he can even when he's
off the ball, where he's more likely to move than than a KD there.
But you said you had Lebron on the third team. I do have
Jalen Brunson on my third team. That was so. Jalen Brunson's case is
interesting because I feel like he's the quint essential. His case as most valuable
is stronger than an all NBA case because I do think there might be people
that leave him off, and like, look, he has the numbers there
when you look at someone's gonna average twenty five plus six plus assists, he's
hitting his off the dribble threes. But like, he doesn't give you a
lot defensively, and it feels like a lot of his case is propped up.
I will look how many minutes he played, or look at how many
look at how much isn't around him in New York, and I absolutely think
that matters when it comes to MVP. It didn't like matter to me as
much when talking about All NBA. Yeah, okay, so you have Lebron
and Jalen Brunson. For me, I have Anthony Davis is on my third
team. He was my first cut, and I feel awful about it,
but like the offensive juice just isn't there for me, and I don't know
how to. He's been available, which I appreciate. I think he's been
great defensively, but I couldn't he was among my first tough cuts. I
have Booker on my third team. I was thinking like, oh my god,
did I forget him? Though he's the third teamer for me and who's
my Oh this last spot was brutal. It ultimately is going to be Anthony
Edwards for me, but they're the toughest cuts, which which will be just
on my next team. I thought, I'm gonna I'm not gonna lie.
I thought about when Yama I thought about I was wondering if we could talk
about Anthony Edwards really quickly. Sure, I'm like, I think some people
might look one the fact that the Timberwolves might be the have the second best
record in the league when all said and done, and they would only have
one All NBA player. Is a little bit weird, but that's what happens
when you get rid of positions. Otherwise, Rudy might have had a case
to beat a d And that's, by the way, that's who this hurts.
Was like the Rudy Gobert, Sabonis, Anthony Davis tier by getting rid
of Biggs, and obviously it had embiid like too. If we had stuck
to the previous criteria, two of those guys would have made it because Inbeed,
I just don't think would have logged enough time this season to have factored
in. But when I look at Anthony Edwards, there's stuff I wish he
did more of, like you know, the the off the dribble. Scoring
efficiency when it comes to his jumper is not super high, but he's close
to thirty eight percent from three all year, and I think we might underestimate
how he's not throwing these necessarily flashy passes. But he is so important to
driving the offense for the Timberwolves. I know Mike Conley receives a lot of
credit, but like when you play Conley without Anthony Edwards, the Timberwolves offense
ranks in like the eighteen percent tile. When you play edwards without Conley,
their offense ranks at the ninety third percent TILE. Like that's a big deal
because he's still working within dual big lineups there, and it's not like he's
working with they're not playing vastly different just edwards lineups versus just Conley lineups.
Like the pairings when you look at the most used of the other four that
are mix and matched, they're largely the same, like they're gonna consist of
the same combination of other guys. So I just the efficiency isn't always there
with him relative to others and the turnovers. I do think he's part of
the issues with Minnesota, but I absolutely think he belongs on third team All
NBA for his body of work this season, and I will be I don't
know if this is like a moot discussion, like maybe it doesn't like he'll
just be there ain, but like you're looking at someone who's averaging twenty seven
points five assists, and yeah, do you wish he was scoring a little
bit higher on his twos maybe, but his true shooting he's still at for
the year. What is the ad on True fifty eight eight. It's like
it's, you know, it's not super high, but it's good enough.
I think he should be at all ab a lock though pretty locked and it
was harder than that for me. But like, I think I think it
helps his case like that, I think you'd find people that say he not
McDaniels has been the second best defensive player on the Wolves this year. I'm
not ready to get there. I think I think you mentioned it like Edwards
kind of toggles the switch a little bit, Like you know, I think
John Krasinski recently wrote like A. I mean, I like, I think
John's one of the best beat writers in the league. But it very much
felt like Edwards guy's got in his ear and were like, you got to
talk about this guy's defense, and it was there were no numbers involved.
It was very anecdotal, but it did talk about how like he turns it
on and it's like, oh my god, nobody can do anything with this
guy, which is true. So I think if you're trying to split hairs,
the fact that Edwards can be but is not always really like lights out
defensive player, that that helps for sure. Where do we so where else
did we end up differing Is you have Anthony Davis, which that line he
was among one of my like he was, he was right there. I
think it's just that, yeah, Foxes, I know the efficiency has come
down, but he's been better defensively this year. He can still take and
make really difficult shots. He is a driving force of that offense, whether
you're trying to get out in transition, operate early in the shotcock, or
if you need to make something out of nothing. He's been like he's had
He's not gonna win Clutch Player of the Year again, but he's had some
like especially in the month of February, he was just annihilatory during crunch time,
and I think that he is. I know, so Bonus has these
monster lines, and the Bonus was a tough cut for me. So I
had four players that I have. His locks is like, all right,
I need to mention these guys if there was a fourth team and they are
Anthony Davis domas a bonus. I think James Harden has quietly been great for
the most part in LA and then Christoph's just keeps popping up in all these
discuss said he's like two games away or whatever it is from being an eligible
but for right now, he was a tougher cut for me. Sabonis his
numbers are just so like he's averaging over eight assists per game, but the
limitations that he poses both on offense and defense when you just look at some
of the spacing or what he the shots he won't take, let's say it
that way. And then just defensively, Yeah, the Kings, there's been
defensive improvement, but like Sabonis, aside from his rebounding, is not coaxing
that out of them at all. Dan, I'm so tired of you dumping
on Sabonis and me having to prop this guy. I just had him as
my fourth team all NBA considered. I'm not usually my bit where I have
to like to have a way apologize for everything I say about Sabonis. I've
talked enough about him. He makes my my my hypothetical fourth team. Oh
does he? I'm actually pleasantly I'm proud of you. Well, I feel
like I look I'm over correcting. I still don't believe in him as a
as a like, you can't max this guy out. He cannot be one
of your highest paid players on a team. That's gonna do anything but awesome
statistical year place Like the other thing, like things I praise other players for
that, I just overlook with the bonus is like plays really hard, like
and just is seems like he really is invested in, like making other players
better. Like I love those things. I just don't give him enough credit
for them. So I'm trying to be I'm trying to be better Dan.
Did anybody else on my fourth team make your fourth team? Well? I
had Davis on my what second or third? I did not have Harden.
He was a tough cut. I have Chet on my fourth team. I
mean I think, look, he's mentioned I have like he's mentioned off to
the side of mine, where like I have Chet and Paul George and Trey
Young and Dave Lillard. Like I don't know who to give my final honorable
mention spot. Oh, I have Wemby on my fourth team. By the
way, I forgot how did I say Chet first? So Chet, Wemby
and then these last two. I just you know, you get I you
As you'll see, there's like fifteen twenty more guys. I don't have Porzingis
just because I'm assuming he's not going to get to the games played. I
don't know what I would do if he'd, you know, weren't so close.
But I do have Paul George and I actually have Larry Markinen. Okay,
so what do you make of Like, should Rudy Gobert be here?
He's our runaway defensive player of the year. Yeah, I I don't.
I don't feel like he was not a real serious because he like I thought
about him, but not a super serious consideration for me, just because I
kind of think some of the wolves offensive issues do tie to him. I
think I think like that that if you're like he's you know, he has
his uses offensively, but ultimately if like all the turn the offense is gummed
up and the turnovers are an issue, and like, just I think that's
a lot of him because it just still defies logic that Conley, Edwards,
McDaniels and kat like can't find ways to score unless there's some weird impediment and
I kind of think that might be Gobert. Yeah, I don't. So
I thought about Gobert, Paul George, Trey Young, Holmgren, Wemby.
I I also thought about Pascal Siakam like popped up in the consideration. I
mentioned Damian Loward. I think before I just don't even know I'm gonna let
you pick. I thought about Derek white yep here, I thought about Larry
Market, and I thought about Tyrese Maxie. I'm gonna let you pick who
I put here. You're deciding who makes my All NBA fourth team. Give
me like Fox is a consideration. Fox is a consideration I think I was
gonna take. If I was gonna take a King, normally, I would
say I still think Fox is like a better player, But Sabonis I think
has had a better season. Fox is kind of down across a lot of
categories this season you have to put. Do you not have Paul George?
I think you probably better put Paul George, all right. I think that's
fair. He was among them my long one. I don't like if you
just forced me to choose, I don't even know who I would choose.
I wouldn't pick Tray Young. I think that his like. I feel like
people have either swung in either direction too far on him. But he might
not hit the game's minimum with that shoulder injury, so I didn't necessarily want
to include him even Chris Tops as a place holders a little bit dangerous,
Like part of me just's like there's still something off with Dame Jimmy Butler's not
gonna at the game's threshold. I wanted to be spyphone just put your LMB
just to say like, hey, whatever, that's where we're doing. So
I'm comfortable you could have told me anybody I've been like. The only ones
I would have given you pushback on is if you picked wemby your chet because
I can't have just one of them on the floor. Yeah right, yeah,
you that's for sure. If you picked one and not the other,
you'd be in trouble. Trying to think of who we haven't mentioned. I
mean, Kyrie is affected by the games play, and if you've had gotten
sixty five out of him, he'd be in the conversation the way he was
someone when I was doing like the statistical work. I know Kyrie's own numbers,
but looking at the Kitchen Sync metrics, he's someone who he played in
more games, might have been considered a statistical lock for a third team all
NBA. We haven't mentioned. I don't think we mentioned Bam, like he
didn't make I didn't really think too hard. But just Jada, But I
think you could talk about if we're down to like fifteam now, Maxi,
Zion Ingram Bridges hasn't had a great year, Scottie Barnes. You know,
if we're talking about like fifteen or whatever, that's that's the extent of my
long list. Yeah, I don't feel great about my honorable mentions this year.
I said, I feel like Davis the Bonus and Harden are like the
ones I and like, by the way, Harden just continues to pop up
like near all the top of the catch all metrics and it's He's just it's
tough because it impacts the team he's playing with now, definitely impacts the discussion
around him from a value proposition perspective, but in terms of him just being
really good and more adaptable, like you have to tip the cap for most
of the work that he's done in La I got it. Yeah, I
think I gotta say that maybe we talked about Toronto Loo a little bit in
the Coach of the Year discussion. Two guys that I never thought could change,
like in a fundamental way are on this Clippers team. And I think
you can credit Lou for getting them to be like the best versions of their
current selves, which is like Russ's and Harden, like I didn't think I
thought Russ was never going to be able to change. He kind of has,
it was reluctant, and Harden is just like this is as good as
Harden can be right now with his like current physical skill. And I just
didn't think that he was willing to be this player just to be like the
facilitating point guard that shoots threes super accurately and doesn't like do too much.
So I think I think that's a credit to him. Harden as someone like
was maybe one of the toughest cuts. I probably had him on like third
team at some point, and then I just kind of decided that, you
know, Brunson needs to be there over him or something. I will say,
this kind of reinforced that I'm happy I do not have an official vote.
Yeah, it's brutal, because this is a money vote, Like this
is a I like kind of when people said that Zach Low gave up his
vote, I think he did. He keep his all NBAVO. They said
he gave up his vote because he don't watch enough basketball anymore, which is
just the bonkers thing to say about Zach Low. Yeah he doesn't what are
all what are we all doing? I wouldn't want to have to agonize over
this in terms of impacting a player's legacy or a contract, And so I
very much like being in our armchairs, our computer chairs and just being incorrect
and it having zero ramifications on us or other people. Yeah, right,
are gonna cost someone fifty million dollars or whatever? Hell urtten's up for?
Yeah, Edwards, those are the names that are like because we know that
Jaws, just like that's been that ship sailed already. Uh, those are
the ones where it's like both of them they probably should make it. I
feel like there might be more of a debate with Anthony Edwards though, Yeah,
yeah, for sure, because what is he Well, I guess he
made He made it pretty comfortably for you. It was harder for me to
put him on there. Wow, we are onto stat padding, which is
guess a player. Did you want to start us off? Thank you for
everyone who sent us some missions. Did you want to start us off?
While I uh change the the the assets on screen? That's sure, all
right? These are these are as all well, not as always. I
got three here from from Mike. It's it's hearnishing, right I kept I
think I said herrenchion first, but it's hearnishing. Sorry about that. The
first one. I hope I haven't done these. I'm pretty sure I haven't.
You'll if I have and you still don't get them, then they were
really good clues, all right. Clue number one, Dan, I was
drafted in the all time great two thousand and three drafts. Do you want
to just throw a dart? I was drafted. You didn't give me a
number? No, just he's in the three draft? Ok Clue number two.
I missed my entire rookie season to surgeries on both shoulders. You have
a shoulders. Pretty good memory to remember that one. Yeah, I got
nothing here, all right? Clue number three. My first season, I
played all eighty two games, starting four. By the way, I would
play eighty two games twice in my career. In four times I played more
than eighty games in a season, So pretty durable despite two wrecked shoulders.
Still got nothing. Clue four. By my third season, I became a
starter for more than two thirds of my team's games. However, every season
afterwards, my team added more young stars to the rotation. This took away
starters minutes for me in By two eleven, I was a full fledged bench
guy who starts in seventy one games. Oh my god, this is bad
for you. There's nothing there for you yet the shoulder thing is the only
I vaguely remember that, uh Clue five. By twenty thirteen, I was
largely a benchwarmer. However, I was the ultimate teammate, something that has
been my legacy with the franchise. With the franchise, My god, is
it Donnis Haslam? Was he two thousand and three? It is not you,
Donnis Haslam, But I will say you are. You're barking up a
You're in the vicinity of the correct tree to be barking up. Clue number
six. I retired in twenty eighteen, having only played with the team that
drafted me, starting one hundred and seventy seven out of nine hundred and ten
games, averaging six points a game and five boards. Should I know this
by now? It's no. I don't think so. I mean, if
you didn't get the shoulders thing, and this is a one franchise guy for
a really long time, that was art as a great teammate. But that.
That's that's gonna be tough. Uh. Clue seven, You're there's only
two more clues. So we're in crunch time here. Gary Payton's number isn't
retired by the team I played for, but mine is. Yeah. I
did not know this. I did not know Gary Payton's number is not retired
by this team. That is kind of nuts. It's not retired by that
team, so is it? Oh? Oh my god, Nick Collison,
you got it, Nick Collison, good job. Number eight Masonics Thunder and
that's how I got there. Number eight was Kenrich. Williams is viewed as
the next me by the organization. You really Williams is a superstar. Maybe
not so much of the season, but that's right. I am Nick Collison.
I'm pretty sure I haven't done that one before. No, I mean
I didn't if I didn't remember it after that? All right? You want
another one? Yeah? You want to do You want to do three each?
Well I have, Yeah, you want to alternate. You want to
give me an alternate, so I have. I'll do one from We have
some from Bill, we have some from Mike. This one's from Mike.
Okay, Clue one, I was a number one pick in the nineteen nineties.
Okay, I'm not gonna guess you well, I got what have I
got a number one overall or does like number one? So you're only talking
about what ten drafts? Uh? Why am I blanking on top overall picks
in the nineties, Tim Duncan, No, Okay, I was not one
of the good ones. Oh hmmm, who's a really big bust in the
nineties? This is bad. I can sometimes I can tell if my brain's
not working very well. It feels like this is one of those days.
So he's a bust number one overall pick from the nineties. Go ahead,
Clue three. I famously told Kareem Abdul Jabbar that he was disrespecting my game
when my team brought him in to be a mentor for me. My team
brought him in to be a menu tour for me. Glenn Robinson, No,
Clue four. I probably shouldn't have done that, because he then became
an assistant coach and labeled me as as talented but unculturable. Oh my god.
I should just be able to go through number one picks from the nineties,
right, I feel like maybe is it? Derek Coleman no, he
was an eighties number one pick. I think, okay, Clue five.
After that self inflicted mess, I was traded to Minnesota to team up with
Kevin Garnett, who was more than happy to put up with my crap.
Just kidding. He didn't like me either. I should get it right now.
A number one pick from the nineties that played with Kevin Garnett. I
mean it's not. I want to say Darko because he played for the Wolves,
but he's not the number one overall pick he was. He was also
drafted in two thousand and three. Oh right, yeah, that's stupid,
gosh, I should get this. Who was a number one pick that played
with Kevin garn It in Minnesota? This is embarrassing, No, I mean
the name, Like if you were just gonna take stabs at number one picks,
then yeah, but especially if they were bus Clue six. I was
suspended by the Timberwolves for two games after I was arrested for refusing to leave
an Indianapolis nightclub. I didn't not know. So if you know this,
kudos to you. Is it Joe Smith? It is not. He was
a number one pick too. I think what was the end? Sorry?
I decided it was Joe Smith. While you were reading the clue. What
was that clue again? I was suspended by the Wolves for two games after
I was arrested for refusing to leave an Indianapolis nightclub. It's Michael ola Kandi,
that is correct. The final two clues were I was also suspended for
fighting Nana and I was traded with while you Serbiak to the Celtics for Ricky
Davis and bench fodder, where I finished out my incredibly underwhelming career, averaging
eight and six and five hundred career games. Man, I should have just
I should have just gone with the busts from the nineties that would have got
to him eventually. Okay, that was too many clues. Okay, no
a number. Guess a player number two for you? Clue number one.
Actually, I should look and see who this is. Okay, Now I
know. I was drafted by the Raptors but traded on draft Day for Jermaine
O'Neil Ooh. I was drafted by the Raptors. I got nothing. Go
ahead, I did not know that number two. In my second season,
I averaged one point six blocks a game. A beacon of things to come,
sweet a shot blocker number three. By year four, I was averaging
two blocks a game, was a first time All Star, and had a
playoff game in which I had nine blocks. This season got me a nice
four for fifty eight million dollar contract, Eric Dan Pierre. No, let's
see, yeah, I guess. I guess you don't really have the year
yet. But four for fifty eight gives you sick. You know, it's
fairly modern because guys weren't making that much that long ago. Clue number four.
In the first year of that contract, I broke the franchise record for
blocks in a game with eleven, en route to another All Star selection and
coming in second in Defensive Player of the Year voting. But that postseason I
set the record for most scoreless playoff games by a current All Star with four.
Oh my god, that's not that's a good clue. Scoreless by an
All Star, the second, second in Defensive Player of the Year getting No,
that's a good guess though, Oh, keep going all right. Clue
five. That offseason, the wheels started to come off. First Andrew Bynham
was brought in to give me extra incentive to play my best, but it
messed with my head. Then it was rumored the team's star player was sleeping
with my fiance did not know this, but he and I quashed the rumors
by going fishing together. True story. Andrew bidam he brought in to give
me a good influence. Why am I not? No Smush Parker. No,
No, he was never an All Star. Please disregard that it never
had eleven blocks in a playoff game either. CLU six. The following season
went poorly for me, the team, and everyone around it. I took
my player options, selling my team's plans for free agency. When the cap
spiked, they traded me to the Lakers two weeks later for a second round
pick four years in the future. Nothing. So this guy goes from second
in Defensive Player of the Year blocking along Roy Hibbert. Correct, it is
Roy Hbbert. That was a little really like because we were both working for
br when Hibbert was happening, and then like he just talk about wrong place,
wrong time, because like within a year it was like you can't play
this type of player anymore, and but he was like dominant. He was
the Pacers, which ended his career. Basically, that's right, that's right.
We parol Antis, by the way, who has been a GUESSA player
before all right, good clues. All of yours were from Mike, right,
I have I have one more from Mike, so that'll be three total.
Yeah, all right, so I'll do two. I'll we'll alternate to
me and I'll do my two from b Rich. I'll do one from be
Rich and then you can do Mike. Then we'll do the last one from
be Rich. Okay. Clue one. A non lottery first round pick in
two thousand and five. I played for eight teams in twelve seasons. Okay,
in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, I had the
pleasure of for fifty one games being teammates with Greg Buckner. We went eleven
and forty one together and combined started four games. Buckner started all four.
I don't know where Greg Buckner is in two thousand and seven. Eight.
If we've established anything, it's that we don't know anything about Greg Buckner.
We just need to like read up on Greg but Buckner before the next podcast
that we can get any GUESSA player that might be tangentially related to them.
Clue three. I'm one of the few players in NBA history to take a
two year hiatus early in my career to play pro ball in Russia. Oh
drafted outside the lottery in OH five five, goes to play for two years
in Russia and played with Greg Buckner. Of course I can't, okay,
so I don't. I don't have it Clue four. A late bloomer.
My best NBA season was with the Suns in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, when
I averaged close to sixteen points per game and shot forty percent from three while
starting forty eight games, which was a career high. Thirteen fourteen sons.
Yes, outside the lottery, OH five thirteen fourteen son, What are the
stats again for that year? Sixteen points on forty percent from three? Oh,
that doesn't doesn't tell me rebounds or assists. It was on the thirteen
fourteen Suns that played in Russia. H don't have it, okay Clue five.
Like Rudy Gay, I was a contestant in the two thousand and eight
Dunk Contest but did not win. Some say I was robbed as one of
my dunks involved a common dessert at kid birthday parties? Is this Gerald Green?
It is? Okay? I mean, if I don't get it on
that clue, that's ridiculous, and then his final clue, which he said
is for use after the answer is revealed in further proof that basketball referenced similarity
scores are nonsense. My most similar player is Brian Shaw. Yeah, give
me the most athletic player of all time in the least, all right.
I do love Jerald Green. All right. This is the last one here
from Mike uh Okay, now I know who it is. Clue number one.
I was a top ten pick in two thousand and eight. I want
to take a stab at that one in two thousand and eight and was a
top ten pick. No, I don't want to think it known that,
all right. Clue number two. At the time, I was seen as
the NBA's next best shooting guard, and in my first three years I was
already being called Kobe's air apparent for that label. I'm not sure who was
saying these things. Yeah, I don't remember that happening around two thousand and
eight, so please carry on. Clu three. I was part of a
very famous trade that's too obvious to name without giving it away. I got
hurt almost right away with that team, and the injury bug bit me continuously
for the better part of a half decade where I only hit sixty five games
in a season once. Yeah, I got nothing, all right? Clue
four. In twenty sixteen, I found my footing again in the league as
a sixth man on the what is a two point shot Houston Rockets? Ah?
What year twenty sixteen? Finds his footing twenty sixteen? You know the
Kobe clue has thrown me off because I'm thinking about that team. Disregard the
Kobe clue. I think I think that's that's gonna hurt you. Okay,
M sixth man on that Rockets team and part of a trade. That's that
like you, if you were told who else was in the trade, you
would probably get him. Did they say what year that trade was made?
No? But he was drafted in O eight and then in and then is
hurt like forever, and then in twenty sixteen, like finds the spot with
these Rockets. I should know. That's the clue that I should know,
And I got I got nothing, all right? Not the kebab ute,
is it? No? The next clue? Well, okay, in twenty
eight Clue five. In twenty eighteen, I was one of the Rockets that
missed several threes in the infamous twenty seven missed in a row game. PJ
Tucker was heire? Then? I think he was there, but it is
not PJ. Tucker. This is a shooting guard. Remember shooting guard Trevor
Reson wasn't a shooting guard. Oh, Eric Gordon correct, Yeah, I
guess that's why I was. I was thinking about that the entire time.
I'm sure somebody compared him to Kobe. Mike's gonna have to get on Discord
and uh show some receipts on who was calling Eric Gordon the next Kobe Just
for fun. Clue six. That was my last healthy season in Houston,
as I played sixty three combined games the next two seasons. Then James Harden
got traded, and over time I was the last vestige remaining from the Derrilmory
Rockets. Clu seven spent all of my twenty two twenty three time with the
Rockets, refusing to mentor the young players until I was traded at the deadline.
Oh what. Clue eight, I played Michael Jordan's kid in Space Jam
What I did not know that. That's a hell of a clue, Mike.
I didn't know that either. That's incredible. The clue I would have
included, I mean, you can't because I think it's the Chris Paul trade
that he's talking about. The other other hate this player would have been a
good one. Well, yeah, the thing where what was it like?
He was it New Orleans way to Phoenix as a restricted free agent? That's
what it was. Yeah, okay, Eric Gordon. Uh fun fact one
of Eric Gordon's nicknames on b ball references the hobbit. I think I actually
knew that. That's fucked up. All right, final one of this this
batch. Thank you be Rich and Mike for sending them again. If you
have more, send them to Grant or I shout out to Rubikscal, Mike
and be Rich who consistently do them. Let's get some more people involved in
it. Okay, Grant, are you in the mind of a sociopath?
I think it's psychopath, but I've been getting stumped. I'm in the mind
of just yeah, whatever of mind I need to be in. I'm ready.
Yeah. Well, I hope this one gets you because you're still kind
of messed up for on stat Pat and getting me with the the Lebron and
Kobe thing where they both had zero five by four games or whatever? Is
that a hint should I take saying I want you to get this wrong because
you're a sociopath? Or got it? Okay? Clue one. A two
thousand and five second rounder. My draft pick was traded three times prior to
me being drafted, one of which included the immortal Tim Thomas. So one
of those trades included Tim Thomas. Yeah, okay, I'm not getting that
one. I would if Tim Thomas is out there, let me know how
you trained your delts back in the day, because you had some pretty big
as shoulders. Uh. Clu two. I played for seven teams across ten
seasons, primarily as an off the bench big man, off the bench big
man second rounder from five traded a lot. Would you say? Seven seasons?
That's it? Seven teams in ten seasons. Seven teams and ten seasons.
Okay, so he's done by fifteen? All right, what does the
next clue? Please? Clue three. In my third season, my storied
franchise lost in the finals. During that playoff run, I averaged ten minutes
per game off the bench and had an effective you'll goal percentage of thirty eight
point ninet His third season, so we're in eight, loses in the finals
in eight? What is that Celtics? The Celtics. Oh you just told
me of the team? Oh sorry, no, it just like the champion
of that year was the Celtics. I was gonna say, it's the lakers
of the Celtics. I can't remember who was in there. Uh okay,
a big guy that got traded a lot drafted. Oh five? Oh wait
yeah? Five? So six, seven, eight, we were the numbers
again. I don't know why it would help me, but ten minutes per
game with an effective field goal percentage of thirty eight nine. Okay, what's
the next clue? Clue for one? My best season was my fifth season,
when I averaged six points and five boards in twenty one minutes per game.
I was subsequently traded along with Colonne as a bouquet Anthony Randolph and a
second round pick for David Knee. Oh okay, so it's a warrior guy
going to the Knicks. That was on Who the hell else went? God,
damn it, it's a way I still have enough on. So he
was a Laker. I guess that became a warrior that went to the Knicks.
That was a big guy and it was a journeyman. This is God
damn it. This is so diable, Like I hate that. Like Bill
is so good at picking players that I definitely know, but are like just
obscure enough that I can't get there. There's one more clue. When I
think this, based off what it says, I think you're gonna get it.
Oh well, then I'd like to get it before that. I just
can't remember who else went with with as a bookie Randolph and who else for
the second round pick for a day and the second round pick for David Lee.
Uh, it's not Ikedagu, it's not Patrick. No. I keep
thinking of like warriors, big guys that were stiffs. Okay, what's the
last Clough clue? Number five, fifth and final one four four year star
for a w c C Powerhouse. One of my claims to fame was cooking
lasagna in the kitchen of a packed frat house during the PA Clara, entertaining
dozens, including freshman Adam Morrison with stories about dating French girls. Oh as
I recall this guy. Also, I think he put ranch on spaghetti or
something. This is Ronney turry Off. God glad to hate yourself though,
because that's what I really did. I'm trying to think now he's good at
making the clues, like, Okay, that's help this exercise. I hope
the listeners enjoy it because we feel like shitf go through it right. There's
there was a clues about a big center and shot blocking and was made an
All Star game, and I said Smush Parker. A lot of people confused
Roy Hibbert and Smush Parker. To be fair, what if, oh man,
there'd be some great Smush Parker clues if anyone ever did those. But
now we're going to be on the lookout for Smush Parker before you go win
your CrossFit open. Would you like to take us out of here? I
would love to take us out. Thanks everybody for listening, Thanks for your
submissions for guests a player. We really do got to get that discord thing
going for for all NBA. I'm super curious to see, like if we
could get some kind of consensus we would like because I don't want people to
you don't want to vote and then have it locked in. Maybe sometime in
April, at the start of April, because there's like only two weeks after
the regular season. I'll do a crowdsourcing and that could be part of our
That'll be a good way to differentiate from what we just did to to include
what our listens. So, hey, Leo, get grand plugging the discord,
proud of you. Get involved if you'd like to figure out how to
join our discord and or get some merch links for that YouTube and podcast description,
rate, review, subscribe, follow, tell your friends you know,
just help us grow this podcast. We're grateful for the viewers and listeners we
have. We would just like to have as many as we possibly can,
so you can help us do that by spreading the word. I think that's
going to cover it. We close this always with a shout out to the
one and only Frank Milkina an apology to Jared