WEBVTT

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The information economy as a rod.
The world is teeming with innovation as new

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business models reinvent every in every industry. Inside Analysis is your source of information

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and insight about how to make the
most of this exciting new era. Learn

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more and inside Analysis dot Comside Analysis
dot com. And now here's your host,

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through Eric Kavanaugh. All Right,
ladies and gentlemen, Hello, and

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welcome back once again yours truly,
Eric Kavanaugh here. Very excited to have

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a member of one of my favorite
companies on the line today, folks.

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I first learned about Mendix probably five
or six years ago at an SAP conference,

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and I was just immediately blown away
by what they've done. So today

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we have Cheryl Kennisburg with us and
she's going to tell us about a lot

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of the new developments. But first
let me just set the sage here so

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you can understand what this technology does. So we all hear about digital transformation.

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We're trying to upgrade, we're trying
to get to the cloud. We're

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trying to upgrade systems to be able
to handle the new capacities, the workloads.

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We've had this whole evolution around how
software gets developed and deployed and managed

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and things are changing dramatically, Well, how do you do that? Actually,

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achieving digital transformation requires some form of
change to your technology stack, to

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your processes, your workflows, what
the people are doing every day. Well,

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there are lots of ways you could
do it, and most of them

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are very confusing and upset the business
because they can't code and they don't like

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that, and then they're nervous about
what's happening. Is it really going to

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work? All these factors come into
play. Well, the folks at Mendix

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came up with a really fascinating idea, which was to develop a new language,

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a programming language that is visual and
it can be understood by both the

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business and IT. So they use
this visual metaphor to represent the arch texture

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or whatever the technology is at this
time. So maybe it's an ERP system

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Enterprise resource planning like an SAP of
course, or are lots of other ones

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out there, smaller ones, And
with this visual metaphor, the IT people

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and business people can sit down and
walk through exactly how the new process is

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going to run. I saw that. I was like, that is freaking

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brilliant. That is a great idea
because now the business can engage in the

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process and under fantastic. So,
Cheryl, welcome back to the show.

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Tell us a bit about all the
newest stuff that you got. I guess

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you were just talking about governance today
and you told the team that it's actually

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interesting. Now tell me about governance
and mendics. Yeah, well, thank

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you, Eric, Guys enjoying hearing
your intro to Mendics. You did a

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great job explaining. So one of
the things that happens when you have a

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large enterprise and a lot of business
people and a lot of developers, all

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collaborating and different kinds of organizational structures
is you do need to start thinking about

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governance. And it's definitely not the
sexiest topic when it comes to technology,

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but there are a lot of things
that from a security perspective and a vulnerability

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perspective that you really have to think
about from a low code, particularly as

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we see democratization too much broader audience. Yeah, well, and low code

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really is what you've done so you
and low code is nothing new. A

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lot of folks know what this is. And basically low code or no code

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as they sometimes refer to it means
you have some visual interface that allows you

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to build apps together. Well,
that's not new. In fact, that's

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been the goal for decades, I
would argue, But in the last few

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years low code no Code really took
off. And I think it's because the

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engines underneath are getting much more sophisticated
about how to connect things and making sure

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that code is nice and tight and
lean and does the job it's supposed to

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do. But you folks really took
it a step further with this visual metaphor

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to be able to do building blocks
and see what's working. And you know,

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the thing that excited me the most
is the confidence that gives to the

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business side, because when the business
can understand and see visually what you're talking

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about doing, it makes a lot
more sense. And then they're invested,

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they're not so nervous, and they're
willing to pull the trigger and move forward

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with projects. And unless you change
something, you're not transforming anything. Right.

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Yeah, absolutely, I think you
do need the right platform in order

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to make the organizational change that you
need to start attacking. You know,

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this digital transformation project you're we don't
see organizations succeed with digital transformation using the

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same technologies that they have in the
past, the same organizational structures. So

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what you're saying about the business is
exactly right. And you know you referenced

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the logic flow. It's all of
the layers, right, So it's the

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logic flow, it's also what the
UI looks like, and it's also what

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the data structures look like behind it. So Mendex has a visual view that's

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accessible to a pretty broad set of
people across all three of those. And

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you know, one of the things
we're also seeing is tech literacy has gone

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up substantially. So you talked about
adoption of low code, no code because

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of the additional power that's going into
the platforms, which I think is true,

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particularly about Mendix, of course,
but it's also about the profile of

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you know what does a recent graduate
entering the workforce look like? You know

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what, who's you know, while
they're watching the game at night, also

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taking a Python course on Coursera.
Like, people are much more tech literate

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than they were twenty or thirty years
ago, and so their desire to contribute

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to technology deliveries really coming into focus. Yeah. Well, and so Mendix

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ten has come out now, and
I think you're really riding on this way

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tech awareness and tech savvyness AI.
Maybe let's jump right on AI so we

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don't forget about that. These large
language models have come along and just shaken

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the business world. I mean,
it's really quite remarkable to see how quickly

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companies have jumped on board. And
we're in the early days of understanding how

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this stuff works. I mean,
just to be really candid, we're in

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the very early days. But there's
no question there is tremendous power here.

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And I think just how realistic and
human like these engines communicate has woken up

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almost all business people to the potential. Hey, we got to start looking

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into this basically. So tell us
what is Mendix doing in the AI space?

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How are you kind of jumping on
that wave. It's a great question,

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and I think when we look at
our AI investments at Mendis, we

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look at them in two ways.
One of them is how we can invest

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in AI to make developers experience better, and the others how we can invest

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in AI to make the applications that
are being built better. And in Mendix

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ten, we have capabilities in both
of those areas that are of great value

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to our customers. So if we
start with as you refer to the large

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language models. If we start with
thinking about what we can do around AI

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to make developer experience better. We've
had AI assistant development in the platform for

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several versions. Now, wow,
so as you are creating these visual models,

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you know, a assistant can pop
up and say, hey, we

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noticed that you are referencing this particular
entity. Do you want to change the

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value of this attribute? Because behind
the scenes, we've actually analyzed millions of

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different actions in micro flows across you
know, our thousands of customers and determined

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that that's the next likely thing you're
going to need want to be And we're

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at like a you know, ninety
percent plus accuracy rate at our first recommendation.

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Why don't what people actually want?
That's amazing, Yeah, just real

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Let me comment on that. That's
very interesting because you know, pattern recognition

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is what these algorithms do extremely well, and they can, as you suggest,

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analyze a corpus of data that is
far greater than any human being could

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ever process. Right, And we
were just talking massive amounts of data,

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but there are patterns all throughout those
systems. Maybe it's log files, I'm

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not sure exactly what you're where you're
gathering the information, but This is where

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AI is going to manifest most of
its value. I believe in suggestions and

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saying, hey, we saw you
did this, do you want to do

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that? Right? And we saw
that you see it in the e commerce

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world. People who bought this also
about that. That's a little bit of

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a simpler thing to pull off,
but to be able to facilitate that process

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is so powerful because guess what,
especially if you're correct, well, that

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means the developers going to go,
oh, yes, you want to do

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that, Oh yes, I do
want to do that, and so they

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get more confident, they get more
engaged, and guess what, that expedites

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the whole process and expedites time to
value. Right. Yes, So we

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talk about it just like that.
So for experienced developers it makes them much

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faster. For newer developers, it
builds their confidence and it makes sure that

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they're adhering to best practices. So
we have other assistance in the platform.

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The one we were just talking about
is the logic assistant, but we also

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have ones that check for best press. So I'll give you an example.

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Personally, I cannot I'm not a
professional developer. I did some quoting in

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college, and I play around in
mendix, you know, pretty regularly,

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and I'm not producing anything in production, and when I have a loop running,

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I never know whether to commit the
variable or not. I just can't

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ever rematch. I can't remember,
so I commit the variable every time.

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So now a little thing pops up
and says, hey, you're committing this

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variable a lot, and that's slowing
down your app model. That's an anti

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pattern. Why don't you do it
this way? And it's like one click

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right. This is like a senior
developer sitting next to me and looking at

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my model and telling me what to
do better with it. So you know

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what that evolves in. But we
will have you know towards the end of

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this year beginning next year, is
an actual chatbot in our IDA that is

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trained on all of our documentation,
our forums, our support database, and

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is able to answer questions like how
do I connect to this SAP system or

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you know, I want to have
a dropdown that does X, y Z,

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where do I find the button that
does that? Right, and is

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able to field those responses at first
and then eventually actually generate those models for

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developers. That's so amazing because,
let's face it, what you're talking about

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facilitating those tend to be very tedious
steps in the process. Yes, right,

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and no one likes tedium. I
mean, you know, I joke,

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Oh, what was that book with
Major Major, Major Major, And

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there was the character who always hung
out with people he didn't like because that

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would make time go slowly, right, they thought it we could actually live

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longer. This is like it's one
of these weird of war books. But

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you know, that's a person in
a book who liked the tedium. Nobody

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likes nobody likes them, and it
really it strikes it what I consider the

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most important aspect of any company.
When your workers are just stuck in ruts,

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when they're trying to get through tedious
things to meet unrealistic objectives and timelines,

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etc. That kills morale. But
when you're moving along and getting things

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done, that is awesome for morale. And so I look at how this

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AI manifests and facilitates these processes,
and to me, it's just a tremendous

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morale booster. Right, it's absolutely
eric. And one of the big issues

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many enterprises struggle with is actually hiring
and retaining developers. That is a huge

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issue. We hear it from our
customers all the time that developer retention and

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talent development is incredibly difficult for them. So if they can use tools that

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let them really focus on the innovation
and let them really focus on the interesting

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problems, that helps a bit with
the talent gap. The movie was catched

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twenty two, by the way,
it's a movie and a court. Yeah,

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that was just stuff. Yeah,
but it's like it's like a coal

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pilot. I mean with gidthub they
actually call it copilot pilot. Yeah,

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right, and that's exactly what it
is. So it's you've got a little

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helper along you're with you on your
side saying hey, you should do this.

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Hey have you thought of that?
What a great way to facilitate moving

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forward getting things done right? Yeah, I envisioned in my head is the

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same as like swiveling around in my
chair and asking the person who sits behind

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me, right, except it's right
in my IDU. Yeah. So you

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know, I mentioned there are two
ways that we use AI in the platform,

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and I want to get to the
second one because I think it's really

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slick too. So for a long
time, Mendex customers have been able to

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create what we call smart apps with
publicly available APIs or things that they've written

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themselves. We have a really close
relationship with Amazon Web Services and they have

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a really rich set of AI associated
services that Medix customers can take advantage of.

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So we have been helping customers deliver
smart apps for a long time.

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But one thing that we noticed was
that there are instances where customers have an

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existing trained machine learning model that they
want to put in an app, and

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there are a couple of reasons they
might want to do that. They might

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want to do that because it represents
IP and they have a better algorithm than

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a publicly available one. Or it's
run on a very specific data set that

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they don't want to share and expose
externally. They might want to do it

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because there are performance advantages or you
know, price by service call advantages to

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actually doing it in the Mendix app. So with Mendix ten, we have

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a feature called the Machine Learning Kit. Now, this enables somebody who has

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a machine learning model that's been trained, that's written in like PyTorch or a

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side tech to convert that into Onyx, which is a open I don't want

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to say open source, but it's
like a common framework for mL. Yeah,

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exactly, and then they can actually
run that model in a mendix app

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natively. Wow, So you've got
data scientists right who are like, I

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have this cool algorithm, but nobody
can actually use it because I don't know

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how to build a UI for it. Or you have somebody that has a

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really sophisticated customer experience except it's not
using the best possible intelligence to serve customers.

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Mlpit is bridging both of those kinds
of examples. Well, that's great

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too, because reusability is key,
and if you can reuse something that was

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very helpful that was getting the job
done, yes, you save it again,

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you save it a lot of time. Then of course you can track

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it and monitor it over time and
realize after six months or a year if

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there's some model drift or it's not
doing what you thought it was doing,

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or it's not doing things good enough
yet, well then maybe you can go

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ahead and rewrite that thing. But
if you've got a functioning algorithm that's doing

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cool stuff, just basically use this
approach to to beverage on it to be

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able to interpret that and then yeah, this is yeah, that's very cool.

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And that there again is the value
of open standards, right, and

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of emphasis being placed on reusability,
on being able to port from one environment

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to another, because you know,
riven or place you know is borderline a

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myth I think. I mean,
it does happen, but typically you're just

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the these enterprise software landscapes. They're
like a ripped and glue it back together

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with new stuff on top. Yeah. Sure, you know how like the

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ancient cities have cities on top of
cities the cities, and that's kind of

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what it's like. Although we are
getting to the point now with things like

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process mining, and I'm sure you're
familiar with all that where you can now

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see across these very formally opaque environments
to understand what's happening, and then the

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question is what do we do to
change that? And that's where mendix comes

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into play, right, Yeah,
absolutely. You know you've mentioned reusability a

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couple of times, and one of
the features we have in Mendix ten is

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something we call the Solutions Kit.
So the Solutions Kit helps us deliver composability

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or the promise of the what Gartner
versus the composable enterprise, right. The

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idea behind the Solutions Kit is it
enables developers to IP protect certain modules of

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an app while they allow other parts
of the app to be changed, adapted,

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or extended interest and that manages the
lifecycle management across multiple versions of that

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app that might be across an enterprise
or might be across a set of SaaS

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customers in order to simplify things like
upgrades and simplify things like longer term maintenance.

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And so you can imagine there might
be a core of an app,

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maybe has again IP and a special
algorithms something in it that is specific to

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the company's capabilities. But there might
be customers who want different interfaces or different

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menu items, or want to do
some sort of customization that is an absolute

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mess. Typically when you upgrade the
underlying template, oh yeah, always be

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folks, fucking all things that transformation. We're trying to transform our enterprises.

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We're trying to deliver new apps and
new capabilities to stay on top of

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things. It's a fast moving world
out there is everywhere. It is truly

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global. We've gotten through supply chain
issues. Now we're dealing with large language

284
00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:52.839
models and AI. All this fun
stuff is happening. How can you leverage

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00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.000
these technologies? How can you change
your business? Well, our guests today

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know as a whole lot about that. We're talking to Earld Kennigsburg from MENDIX

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and before the break there we were
joking, always be afraid of the upgrade,

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but you put in some safeguards in
a way that's kind of like a

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governance storyline. I mean, it's
not maybe what you were thinking of in

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terms of governance, but to be
able to protect certain components of the enterprise

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and then upgrade others, that's pretty
powerful. And we do want to talk

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about this composable stuff. I actually
we did a few shows earlier this year,

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in late last year. Is the
future composable? And what that means,

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folks, is that you know,
when you look at an SAP like

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the original earpiece that they sold or
now of course Sporhana is their big push.

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It is a monolithic system, and
that was the old way of buildings

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things. You have these big,
monolithic applications, millions of lines of code

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in some cases to do all kinds
of different things. Well, SA,

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the service oriented architecture tried to move
us away from that and did in terms

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of how we think about things,
how we compose services together. But now

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I think, largely because of Kubernetes, but also Docker and some other Mesosphere

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and some of these other folks doing
interesting things have managed to really fundamentally change

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how we view products and services in
the software world to where it's going to

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be much more composable, and that
can be a lot more lean, and

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it can be a lot more efficient. I mean, there are ways in

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which it is not as efficient as
the old fashioned way of doing things,

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but it's so much more amenable to
change, and I think that's the key.

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What do you think, Cheryl,
This ability to be agile to change

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some part of your business quickly.
I think that's one of the greatest benefits

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of this composable future. What do
you think, absolutely the composable enterprise suggests

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that that is organizationally, how your
business is going to run. And then

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composable or a composition platform for technology
delivery is just the kind of digital manifestation

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of that because you have to be
able to model the those things digitally as

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well. So absolutely, it's definitely
about agility. I mean, you know,

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twenty years ago it was the shift
from waterfall to agile development, right,

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and we saw massive amounts of you
know, change and productivity levels.

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And you know, we still have
a lot of organizations and customers may encounter

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who are still making that shift and
still just starting to think about delivering a

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product versus delivering software. But composibility
is you're right, it's kind of the

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that next level of getting to that
of being able to adjust so quickly with

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what you're doing. I think composability
is one of the key parts of how

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enterprises are going to keep up with
this, and I think collaboration is the

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other one. Oh, that's it. Let's talk about the new collaborative stuff.

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And I just one last comment.
Done, Yes, composibility, I

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think you're right about that because you
think about you know, fearing the upgrade

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and you will have these big vendors, whether it's a database vendor or I

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mean, I remember the cloud era
folks six seven years ago when they rolled

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out a new version and one of
the analysts from Redmunk, when those folks

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are so smart, like all these
people were just bloviating on and on,

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and then one of the analysts from
Redmunk was like, can you just do

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a clean upgrade from the last one
to this one? And Michaelson was like

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no, Like, okay, guys, Like when you have to just go

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and reinstall the whole thing and shut
it all down, I mean, those

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days are hopefully over because that is
so disruptive to the organization. So if

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you take this composable approach, you
won't have to do that. I mean,

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00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.960
you may have to shut off a
couple of services for you know a

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00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.599
period of time, but theoretically you
won't have to bring the whole house down

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00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.920
to do your maintenance. Yeah.
I think that's true. I think that's

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00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.400
true. And I also think that's
true in the platform level like Medix ten

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00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.920
you know, marks the next major
version level for us, but we have

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commitments on how long you know,
Mendix to support it, and we've identified

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00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:59.200
ahead of time over the next two
years, which versions will be supported for

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00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:03.039
how long and what is the upgrade
path look like? And you know,

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00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.319
I think you don't. You don't
see that from everybody in our space because

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00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.960
the decisions they've made, say architecturally
or in terms of acquisitions where they've had

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to take new technologies in. But
with Mendex, I think that kind of

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what when you admit to a low
code platform is how you're going to deliver

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technology. You have to have a
platform that is going to be as stable

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and reliable as the applications you're building
on it and the expectations as end users

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have. Well, so, yeah, absolutely agree with that. That's a

351
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.279
good point, And I think you
made a good point here about committing to

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a low code platform. So I
look around and I see a lot of

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different vendors in this broader space.
You know, you've got your zap Ears,

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You've got Rocado, You've got a
bunch of different companies that are trying

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to kind of fill that void.
And when I look at that that sort

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00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.400
of landscape, I see Mendex as
a couple of key advantages. One of

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00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.880
course, is this visual metaphor of
being able to see what you're doing.

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00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.279
But there are all these other things
that you're talking about now, like collaboration.

359
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:11.079
I mean, collaboration I think was
a core benefit of this service,

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00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:14.880
as I've said of your platform,
but there's some new stuff in collaboration.

361
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.039
What's that all about? Yeah,
there is, so you know what I

362
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.519
say, And thinking about how to
place us with some of those other vendors

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00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.799
you've mentioned. I think we take
the low code moniker sometimes and we apply

364
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:32.799
it to anybody that has a dragon
drop component to a technology they're delivering,

365
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.440
right, and you should really be
thinking about Mendex as low code enterprise application

366
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:44.799
delivery, right. This is not
about automating a connection to something or having

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00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:48.960
a really simple approval flow. This
is the next generation of how we will

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00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.519
deliver software in the future, and
collaboration is a huge piece of that.

369
00:28:52.720 --> 00:29:00.039
So you know, one piece of
it is within development teams. So we

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00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:04.880
have moved over to get for version
control now, which makes lots of long

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00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:11.000
standing developers very happy because they're super
familiar with that technology. But that occurs

372
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:18.000
on a very granular level within our
application models, and so lots of developers

373
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:25.000
can be working on the same model
at the same time and then there is

374
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:30.799
an actual visual tool we have not
just for creating the logic, but also

375
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:37.319
determining when you have to resolve a
conflict where in the visual model is the

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00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:44.000
conflict. So get version control for
collaboration with visual conflict resolution, which is

377
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:47.640
just wild and it's really great to
kind of watch with some demos on the

378
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:55.640
website about that. And then there's
collaboration outside of the core developer development team,

379
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.319
right, So first you see some
what we call fusion teams where you

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00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.279
have developers and business technologists working together. And that's very much what you were

381
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:10.680
referring to earlier, where somebody without
a traditional development background can look at a

382
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:15.799
logic flow or look at a data
model and understand what's going and so that's

383
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:23.000
something that we've always supported. We're
now moving around that development team to like,

384
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.759
who's the product owner, right,
who's the business owner? How do

385
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:33.440
we even decide which pieces of software
we try to deliver? So we have

386
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:38.599
for a long time had an in
person workshop of yeah, around portfolio management,

387
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.279
and that's now in the product So
not the developers, but the people,

388
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.119
you know, several several areas above
them who need to think about which

389
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.559
software should we deliver what's going to
be the cost of delivering it? What's

390
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.519
the ROI we can model that in
the product. Now that is very very

391
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.839
interesting. So now what you're talking
about is being able to have some strategic

392
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.759
view of the codebase, of the
various components that you have in place,

393
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.799
what you're working on. And I'm
guessing that if a company has been using

394
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:15.279
Mendix for a period of time,
that should get better and better because you

395
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.079
can track you know, for example, how long it took to build this

396
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:19.759
console, how long it took to
build that module. You know, what

397
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.279
were the issues for rand Itto here
and there. To be able to,

398
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:29.839
especially for some of these larger organizations
see across that whole landscape in and of

399
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.960
itself is very interesting. But then
to have meaningful insights on how long it

400
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.920
will take and thus be able to
make decisions for the roadmap. Right,

401
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:41.119
That's what was it? The Scott
hold and I think is the CMO for

402
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:44.920
thought Spot And I was at their
events, I guess like a year and

403
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.000
a half ago, and he joked, I just cracked me up. Someone

404
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.240
said, oh, you know,
how do you decide what's in the roadmap?

405
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:53.039
And he kind of smile and he's
like, you tell me, buddy,

406
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:57.119
Like it's there's the hardest decision to
make of where to focus your attention,

407
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.119
especially as stuff like LM come out, because all of a sudden,

408
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.440
it's like, all right, hold
on, do we have to pivot to

409
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:07.240
be able to focus on this or
that? So having something that strategic baited

410
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:09.599
into a platform that is cool stuff. What is that called? Is there

411
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:14.359
a name for that? Yeah,
portfolio manager? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

412
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.640
And that's really the beginning of us
taking a lot of expertise that we

413
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:24.559
have developed in our digital execution practice
and bringing that expertise and product tizing it

414
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.559
into the product. So you'll see
more things like that over the next couple

415
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:34.240
quarters from us. That is very
interesting because again, you know, the

416
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.359
planning of what you're going to deliver
and then of course exactly right. It

417
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.720
sometimes takes longer, sometimes doesn't take
us long, you know, but again,

418
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.799
that stuff, as long as you're
managing it within a controlled environment,

419
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:50.160
then you can track those kinds of
things. Yeah. Yeah, And really,

420
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:57.920
you know, people commit to roadmaps
like that, like software development roadmaps

421
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:02.319
based on anticipated value and to elect
this helps you actually do the value realization

422
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:07.279
calculations as well, like, these
are the ones we took the chance on.

423
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.720
Let's go back a year later,
like, if we could do it

424
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:13.079
again, knowing what we know now, did we pick the right ones?

425
00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:16.920
Did we estimate these correctly? So
yeah, it really helps organizations that way.

426
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.279
Another thing, So that's an example
of where we're giving a lot more

427
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:29.240
visibility, higher up and more strategically
in an organization to a Mendex program.

428
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.279
Another example is around app insights.
So for a long time in the product,

429
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.759
we've had a thing on the side
that says feedback, And so if

430
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:43.920
you're using an an application that's been
developed on Mendex and you have some feedback,

431
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:45.680
there's little button you click and you
can take that in and you know,

432
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:50.880
now you can actually also include a
screenshot and circle some stuff that you

433
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.480
know, So we're really engaging the
end user in that feedback loop. But

434
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.079
the other thing we're able to do
now is pop a little survey up in

435
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.599
an app. So you've ever been
on a website and it's like, did

436
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:06.759
this answer your question? Or would
you recommend this to a friend, or

437
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.159
did you find what you were looking
for? So we call those mini surveys,

438
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.559
and so those can also be embedded
in apps, right, which both

439
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:22.039
the proactive and reactive types of feedback. So the development team and business owner

440
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:28.360
almost start to develop a better picture
of the end user, almost start to

441
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.840
have a relationship with the end user
of the app based on what kind of

442
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:36.559
feedback you get, and then we
aggregate that so people can kind of look

443
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.679
overall, like are these pages performing
well? Like are people finding what they

444
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.039
need? Is everybody saying some particular
button is hard to find as it's the

445
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:46.840
wrong color? Right? It can
be really simple or it could be a

446
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:51.679
more complex piece of feedback that you
arrive at. Now that's great. So

447
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:57.480
you're closing the loop basically on feedback, right, yes, exactly, exactly,

448
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:02.480
and over time will actually be able
to you layer that with quantitative insights

449
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:07.719
also. So these insights are very
individual and qualitative, and we can aggregate

450
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.559
those. But if you can also
look at something like time on page right,

451
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:17.119
or bounce rate or you know,
their application equivalents to those metrics,

452
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:21.400
then you really have a full view
of what's going on in your apps.

453
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:23.559
Yeah, that's really cool, and
just real quick, I want to get

454
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.000
back to this ROI stuff. Oh
yeah, So when you're able to over

455
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:31.320
time as you suggest look back and
say, okay, we spent three months

456
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:36.360
building this module, what have we
seen from that? Able to then some

457
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.199
of your clients track for example,
our NPR score went up, or our

458
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.280
customer sat went up, or the
number of returns went down, these basic

459
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:51.159
metrics that you're looking to track.
When you can tie that to a particular

460
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.199
application or a particular component that you've
built, that gets very compelling because I

461
00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.639
can tell you ROI is always extremely
difficult to determine because there's so many factors

462
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:05.119
involved and hours and opportunity costs and
all kinds of things. But if you

463
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.679
can start tracking you know how long
it took it to do this and then

464
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.800
be able to determine the value relevant
to key metrics in the organization, that's

465
00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.480
like almost the holy ground. Yeah, so you know, it's it's interesting.

466
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.119
I tend to think about it as
like first degree ROI and second degree

467
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:29.360
ROI, and what I think by
that is there's a metric of how much

468
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:35.519
faster you can bring something to market
and how much less time your developers spent

469
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:39.719
to build something in development costs money. And so when you do that faster

470
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.480
or in the same amount of time, you deliver twice the number of applications.

471
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:49.400
Right there is there is an ROI
there, but then there's the second

472
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:55.360
degree ROI, which is what is
the actual degree of the value of the

473
00:36:55.400 --> 00:37:00.360
application that was delivered. And that's
when you get into things like you like

474
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.559
NPS and we certainly have had customers
seem higher scores and all sorts of you

475
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:10.840
know, external validatable things. Yeah. So there's there's the ROI and the

476
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:16.400
value realization of developer resources. But
then there's the second degree one on the

477
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:22.400
applications that are built like new customers
acquired or marketing love first degree ROI and

478
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:27.440
secondary ROI. Awesome stuff. Standby, folks, you are listening to d

479
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two one eight eight hundred two five
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hundred two five four thirty two eighteen
paid for Welcome back to Inside Analysis.

531
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:57.519
Here's your host, Eric Kavanaugh.
All right, folks, back here talking

532
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.400
to Cheryl Kennicksburg, expert of Mendix, one of my favorite companies. I

533
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.199
just love their approach and what they're
doing, and now they're talking about Kafka

534
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.519
as well. I went down to
the Confluent conference I guess last October and

535
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:14.760
interviewed a bunch of fascinating people,
and I'm really keen to figure out how

536
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:20.519
Mendix is leveraging Kafka in the streaming
technology because the hardest part with this stuff

537
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.559
is that it is a whole different
paradigm. We're not talking about adding some

538
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:28.920
feature a component, but when you
talk about a streaming first architecture, which

539
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.639
is what some of these companies are
doing, that is a whole different world

540
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:36.559
from everything else that we've done in
the past. So how do you accommodate

541
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:39.320
this stuff? The hardest part,
I think with Kafka and streaming in general

542
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:45.320
is that it is so different in
terms of how you accomplish things. It's

543
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:51.920
just as it's hard to fuse that
to the old world systems essentially, But

544
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.000
maybe you can educate me on how
you're doing that. And my point is

545
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:59.239
that the streaming first architecture can do
amazing things in new ways, but it's

546
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.559
hard to kind of patch that into
your old, clunky, bactor oriented system

547
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:07.199
that has been doing all these other
tasks. But maybe mendics figure something out.

548
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.559
How are you guys leveraging Kafka,
Well, it certainly is a good

549
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:16.000
thing, Eric that we espouse composable
technology, right or if something better comes

550
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:22.119
out, we can replace something old. So look like business events enabled by

551
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:29.199
Kafka is a really obvious step for
us because of the business it collaboration that

552
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:34.360
we have always placed at the core
of how we think about how people will

553
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.960
use our product. So if you
think about somebody in finance or somebody who's

554
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:45.519
bringing a new product to market,
like, they are not thinking about algorithm

555
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:53.840
number seventeen occurring, They're thinking of
someone presses by now. And so the

556
00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:02.440
idea of being able to use business
events to help business activities makes a lot

557
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:08.199
more sense. Also when you think
about like the architectures like the backed processes

558
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:14.599
or polling, you know, from
a performance perspective, given what we are

559
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.679
asking a lot of software and algorithms
to do these days, it's not the

560
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:23.119
right architecture for that. In many
cases, that's right, thinking about things

561
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:28.920
that are very transactional and that we're
trying our best to model as close to

562
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:35.400
the business activity as we can.
And so our event broker and business events

563
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:39.719
falls for us under the category of
mendex Connect, which also is where we

564
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:45.719
have our data catalog and our drag
and drop of external data because we think

565
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:51.000
about you know, all of those
things as you're building an app and you

566
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:52.960
want data, right, and you
want to be able to drag and drop

567
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.519
that data into your app model,
and you want to be able to drag

568
00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:02.199
and drop the concept of us stomer
presses by now and then you want to

569
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:07.760
define what happens after they do that. Oh interesting, Yeah, that's cool.

570
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:10.920
So this is a true event driven
architecture as as can describe. And

571
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:16.199
what's interesting is, yeah, you're
you're abstracting away a lot of the technical

572
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:21.480
jargon but getting to the meat of
what's happening, which is customer did this

573
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:27.320
right now. Business people can wrap
their heads around that very very easily.

574
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.440
Yeah, I know what that's all
about. You know, instead of calling

575
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:32.920
for this algorithm pulling this like,
right, what are you talking about?

576
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.679
That's that's exactly right, and it's
just you know, another way that we

577
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:45.480
help business be able to like communicate
with it and or developers and understand what's

578
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:51.079
actually occurring. Now, much of
what we've talked about today was kind of

579
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:58.400
our classic logicum microflow editor. We
also have the ability to create workflows.

580
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:05.559
So for us to workflow is a
longer running event or logic process. So

581
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:10.960
maybe something that is waiting for a
manager to approve something or something that you

582
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.119
know, there's some number of decisions
we allow AI to make and then some

583
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:20.119
have to get escalated to a human. So when you start to think about

584
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:28.079
building those sorts of logic alongside business
events, that's crazy powerful. That's that's

585
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:34.440
very very interesting because again now you've
abstracted away the complexity and allowed the business

586
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:38.400
to look at this as just another
resource. And what's cool about copic of

587
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:42.039
course, and these are there's a
pulsar and flink, there are other ways

588
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:44.840
that you can do these things.
But what's cool about coficas that you have

589
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.920
these topics that you subscribe to,
and those topics can be subscribed to by

590
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.960
any number of people. So some
of the old world things we did,

591
00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:53.280
like etling from here to there,
here to there, you don't have to

592
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:57.920
worry about that. If you take
this streaming first architect or seeve solve a

593
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:02.800
lot of those problems. But by
enabling a sort of plug in play paradigm

594
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:09.000
for this kind of technology. That's
very interesting because streaming solved problems that you

595
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:13.400
know, all these other applications have
had difficulty dealing with over the years.

596
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:16.920
And so if you can, if
you can kind of solve that impedance mismatch,

597
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:22.199
which is really what you're doing,
that opens all these doors to other

598
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:24.039
things that can be done. And
now the business people like, wait a

599
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:27.920
minute, so you're telling me that
that can be in events. When the

600
00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.679
customer logs on to the site,
that can be an event. When they

601
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:34.639
call into the call center, that
can be an event. And it's like,

602
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.519
if you know, being able to
track customer churn or just customer sentiment,

603
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.800
it's like, Oh, someone's on
the website, they were just having

604
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:44.920
all kind of issues. They called
in, they hung up. Oh no,

605
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:50.000
it's high value customer call them back
right, Yeah, it's that person.

606
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:52.760
Hey, we notice you're having some
trouble. We'd like to help you

607
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:57.280
out that program. When you when
you show that kind of responsiveness, that

608
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:01.679
is so huge for customer satisfact action, for keeping customers, and also just

609
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:06.519
forgetting your own business done. Right. Yeah, I think that's true.

610
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:12.039
And you know, we've looked at
a lot of research that ties employee satisfaction

611
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.320
to customer satisfaction. Interesting, So
you know, you and I have talked

612
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.559
a lot today about external customers,
which I think we often think about as

613
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.760
the end game because it feels like
there's all this business out there that we

614
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:32.519
want to attract digitally, but having
similarly thoughtful digital experiences for our employees is

615
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.079
also really important, right, And
like a really simple example, like I

616
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.719
know, I've definitely been on the
phone with somebody in a call center and

617
00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:45.559
they say to me, my computer
is so slow today. I'm really sorry,

618
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:50.079
this is taking so long, right, So they're having a bad experience

619
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:53.119
it to me, which is now
causing me to have that experience right right.

620
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:57.440
Or you know, I had a
carpet cleaning guy at the house a

621
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.280
couple of weeks back, and like
he's like, well, I didn't know

622
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.719
I was supposed to pick something up. Doesn't say that in the app.

623
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:07.079
And I'm like, well, I'm
the customer, Like I take this dirty

624
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.239
rug, Oh my lord, I
talked to the lady on the ball,

625
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:16.000
right, so that the care with
which we think about and talk about end

626
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:23.320
user capabilities and experiences should be mirrored
and how we also think about our employee

627
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:29.960
experiences because that's all connected for the
end user. I love that this is

628
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:31.400
a big theme of mine as well, and it's why I always talking about

629
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:36.199
morale and the importance of morale.
Yes, and when morale is high in

630
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:39.320
the company, yeah, then good
things happen for customer service. I mean

631
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:45.239
it's a direct conduit from the employee
to the experience that the customer is having.

632
00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:49.400
And so when you help that call
center, and this gets back again

633
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.960
to event driven architectures right and streaming, because if you're at a call center,

634
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:57.480
you better be getting that information real
time. You can't be waiting like

635
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:00.960
it doesn't help you ten minutes later
after you hung up the phone. Oh

636
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.440
oh that's what he was upset about. Yeah, that doesn't do anything for

637
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:08.440
anyone, that's right. And to
go real time other ways can be crazy

638
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:15.480
expensive and very fragile and security risky
in nature. So you know, being

639
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:22.920
able to move these incredibly specific,
highly technical skill set people that are really

640
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.440
hard to find. So coming back
to that talent discussion. Right to be

641
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.000
able to support that on more of
a general purpose platform, we think is

642
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:37.960
really important because again you can't you
can't find that Unicorn developer. Yes,

643
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.639
that's really hard to hire them.
That is very, very true. And

644
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:45.239
so we are in this new or
we need to be much more cognizant about

645
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:49.880
the developer experience, as you talked
about about the customer experience and how this

646
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:54.039
all threads together, and then you
know, strategically being able to leverage his

647
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:59.480
portfolio manager. I'm very excited about
that because, let's face at, the

648
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:02.920
job of a CIO or a CTO
is a hair raising job. I mean,

649
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.400
these days especially, there are so
many things you need to be able

650
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:09.199
to keep track of and monitor and
understand and watch and you have to trust

651
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:13.760
that people are doing what they say
they're doing. So having that strategic view

652
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:19.880
I think is really quite impressive,
and it puts you in a category I

653
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:23.639
think that is very sparsely populated.
I don't think there are many vendors that

654
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:29.000
had to have all that functionality.
So sixty seconds left closing thoughts from you,

655
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:35.960
we just invite everybody to come on
over to mendex dot com and take

656
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:40.360
a look at the new product free
trial downloads, So go ahead and check

657
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:44.480
it out yourself, or head over
to our videos and take a look if

658
00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:49.280
you're not quite ready to get hands
on keyboard. We're really really excited and

659
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.760
proud about the tenth generation of the
product. And you know, we know

660
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:55.800
that when people see it and start
to use it, they'll feel the same

661
00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:00.679
way. Yeah. I love it. It brings developers and business people together.

662
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:05.000
It solves the IT business chasm that
we've dealt with for years and years,

663
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:07.480
and folks, you've got to be
able to collaborate with your teams to

664
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.559
figure out what's built next and what
to do next because the world is changing

665
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:14.599
very very quickly. But folks,
send me an email if you want to

666
00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:16.199
be in the show. Info at
DM radio adopt bis that comes right to

667
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:20.159
me. Thank you for your time. You've been listening to DM Radio.

668
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the man from yesterday and back in
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nineteen sixty five. Comic Don Rickles
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Leno is catching on as host of
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you couldn't go after? Why pick
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Listening it is easier than enter.
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