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Flora. Thanks for the ride, man, Yeah, no problem, we're
gonna we're gonna make it in time. Oh yeah, yeah, usually traffic's
not that bad. Ah. Let's listen to something so it doesn't get awkward
too late, linked goat man, we'll be plodding on that cast while we're
at the can we just can we just listen to just you know what KBBG.
Oh, Zoe the Zoo cruise on right now? Oh yeah, I
haven't heard them for a while. Yeah, let's let's see what they have
to say. It can normally take so much, but I think I think
we're due. Oh that's crazy. What I want to know is how do
they get into chucky cheese without pants at the first place? In plain Side?
Oh two? All right, all right, KBBG. Time is nine
to eighteen in the am. You know what that means. It's time for
us to check in with the Gooch, check in with the A lot of
you're gonna remember our intern the Gooch. Now, the Gooch has long since
moved on to greener pastures. But just because he's done with us doesn't mean
we're done with him. We've got the number for his current employer. Gooch
doesn't even live in the same state anymore. Already, you think that's enough
to get away from Tito and Glenn people search dot com. After eight long
months of interviewing and checking out options, the Gooch finally landed himself a big
city job up the East Coast. He should be just about be getting into
the office now, so let's give him a call. Got him, Heyl
millsap him. I have a few questions regarding the legality of certain of your
practices as regarding business. I'm sorry. Oh we got you so good,
Tino Glen. Oh my gouch, we found you. You guys can't hide.
Oh it's all right, all right, I'm at work. Come on,
you can't. You can't call me at work, guys. I don't
even work for you guys anymore. I have my old job now, that's
right. But you can never get away from Tito and Glenn in the mornings,
nor can you get away from KBBG. Oh, what do you get
a busy day? He do you there, Gooch? Listen, I really
can't. I'll get in trouble if if somebody will think this is a personal
call. Yeah, so what is your business? Can't say? They're Gooch,
is it? Gooch? Guccarouni, gucco, Gooch, Hole, g
spot, g string, Gooch and rescue, G unit, dream Goo Goo
dollier. What are they calling you there these days? Come on, guys,
I really don't have time for this, Okay, I've really gotta go.
All right, what are you an important meeting? You get? You
had some business you gotta get to this morning? Yeah, I've got a
meeting and like what is this one minute? I've got to be there in
one minute, and the conference rooms all the way across the office. Well,
I guess we better get off the phone. But before we do,
gooch man, could you do me a favorite? Say hi for us?
Just say hi and you'll you'll leave me alone. Just say hi? Okay,
fine, Hi? Oh no you miss r to stidm me there,
Gooch. We're not asking you to say hi to us. We're asking you
to say hi to Professor Pickle Fingers, balloon, Menagerie and a rotic dance
team. What no time? Please? I don't want a balloon animal.
Stop riding on me. You seems so tense. Sit back and let the
dance on you. Let me touch your gouch. Make that man a weed
a doll. No, it looks like we lost the connection. What do
you what do you think you think you may have hung up on us?
Oh the gooch smell severts package. Oh yeah, he's gonna have a hell
of the time keeping a job down with not only a balloon making clown,
but erotic dancers. It'll workplace on a Tuesday morning. The hell? Can
we head that here? Oh? I would have killed for it. I
would have killed for it. But the real uptight up north, real uptight
all right, JBBG. Traffic time is nine twenty three in the AM.
I hope your commune's going better than the Gooch is ruining a man's life of
your entertainment, that's right, KBBG. Listen. Next week goes out to
our buddy, the Gooch, Little love and an elevator from Arrowsmith. Do
you think you'll be getting any of that? Living it up while he going
down floor? Can you change it's it's kind of funny but it mostly just
makes me sad. I know, I know. Here, let's try this
one finally. Hello, Hello, everyone, welcome to Blurry Photos. Now
you'll notice one of us has a reach rich rich reach into deep voicetown you
reach richly into deep voice. Bird Flora, what's wrong with you? I
got a head cold? Yeah, he's got very white fevers. What he's
got got bit by the bug? This is David Flora. Oh, it's
so rich and sultry. I died, David Steckold. Welcome back to Blurry
Photos. Yeah, thanks for tuning in all episode long. How did I
describe it earlier? My sexual peanut butter, my chilotic voice choa. Yeah,
it's rich, rich and deep. I just I just opened a show
this weekend that I'm in. And you know, been in a theater.
You're around bunches of people and you have to make out backstage. That's a
rule of theater. If you're not in the theater community, it's something that's
surprising to most people how much you have to contractually make out backstage. Yeah,
and the incoming audience too. Yeah, it's part of the ticket price.
Yeah, the VIP section, those people who that's makeout town, they
get the deep anyway, open a show, got sick, That's how it
goes. That's how it goes. I didn't open a show, So I
feel great. This episode is a big one, pretty big one. Dave,
What are we talking about this episode? Matchbox cars? Yeah, it's
like the only thing that's still under a dollar? Really, come on,
No, they're like sixty some cents each man. Really? Yeah, I
don't believe you. Well, that's what we do. We dispel the false
beliefs and we enforced the right ones. You know, we're talking about Mythra.
Mythra. Ever heard of it? Have you? It's a good question.
I gotta be honest. I hadn't. But then when I read about
this, I was like, wow, I feel like an idiot. I
feel like I should have This one's a deep cookie. Yeah, and it's
a deep cut cookie. It's important to point out that Mithra Mithra is not
an arch nemesis to Godzilla, right or Rodan? And yeah, Mythra did
not fly with wings. You're thinking of Mathra and no one could blame you
for that, but myth were pretty important. Yeah maybe, well, yeah,
we sort of a theological depth charge in doing this research. The whole
reason we wanted to do this. We wanted to do it around Easter because
it's it's a bit topical around around that time. But we decided candy chat's
more fun. So that's what you got. Free to true. You're right,
have true. Now, there's there's so much to this. Yeah,
I wasn't prepared for it, so that's why we had to push back.
Betty thorough, pretty thorough. So let's let's just dive right in. Let's
because this thing, this, this is the gift that will continue to give
even when we beg it to stop. Now the coming coming to this.
If you have heard of Mithra, I'm gonna bet that you have seen the
movie Religious or maybe Geist I haven't. I've seen the first one, I
haven't seen the second one, or Night nine Geist n nine guys, that's
that's what we should have done. That's that's true, all right, Yeah,
maybe maybe next episode. Anyways, the whole hot debate with Mithra is
Jesus the Christ a copy of Mithra who is a pagan god. Yeah,
there's there for the people who are aware of this. The people who aren't,
well, um, there is a there's a debate a discussion that happens
because this this pre existing figure in religious history. Um, it's Erostrianism and
other faiths named Mithra. It goes by a few different names, but there
are some commonalities with with the christ figure with Jesus as well. That makes
some people say, oh, this is just some people just took Mithra,
rebranded it, renamed it and called that Christianity, and so oh, all
that's false. It's all under you know, blah blah blah. Christianityes for
is bupkus right, and people who follow at our startup ad right glasses push,
we shift right off the bat. Let's just get this out there.
That's not what we're doing this episode about, right, I mean, that's
not our point. Let's just say we're talking about it because it's a really
interesting thing archaeologically, theologically, it's a really interesting subject. And our job
is not here to be like, oh, you should think or you should
think that. Yeah, you think what you want to think. I don't
even have the time to change in mind. Well, my hope in this
is that we go through it a little bit so at the end you want
to know more or you at least have more facts. So at the end,
you wished we had actually given you more information to get mad about it.
At the end, you wish we had just told you what to think.
Right now, we're we're we want to present you know, both sides
or every everything that we can find, and then you know, if you
want to make a decision on it, you can whatever. We're not doing
that, and we get we get you know, in the in the episodes
that we do that that that that move into the the area of religions,
particularly where it abuts against Christianity. We can talk about Zerostrianism or Old Egyptian
faiths like crazy and no one says boo about it. But man, the
minute this boat starts to get into current popular religious waters, we get we
get feedback about it. Yeah, just for that reason, we're not going
to avoid them. We're still going to talk about them. But uh,
just you know, this is this is this is about information. This is
about what we learned and what it is and what it isn't. And we
both before we did this episode, we're like, man, you know,
it's it's tough. It's a tough tight rope. You gotta walk right down
the middle. We'll probably fuck it up. I know, I'll say something
flippantly because it's hilarious. Um, So there's a there's a lot of information
that that we probably won't get to. Yep, but we we've gotten to
a lot of it, so we should just shut up and get to it.
So yeah, let's uh, that's the last apology you're gonna get out
of Merman. Now, who's the apologists? Is there any truth to the
claim that Mithra was the precursor to and model for Jesus? There sure is,
good night everybody, Now, that's kidding, swerved head fake psych just
kidding. And and along with Mithra, the other deities that are often grouped
into their being horace Atis, Dionysus, or Dionysus. I like Dionysus.
I like that. That sounds Dionyser. Yeah, along with other Christna.
There's there's a there's a few. There's a few. Let's suffice it to
say, we're gonna we're gonna go into what was Mythraism and who was Mithra
and what is claimed about the similarities between Mithra and Jesus. We're gonna focus
on Mythra in particular that that's that's the episode title and it's pretty good of
us to do that, and then maybe we can we can look at what
can be learned by looking at this thing in detail y comparison, and because
it's it really rustles some jimmies. Yeah, people, Yes, it does.
Because Christians really feel, I think, attacked by such luminaries as Bill
Maher. Right, Uh that was in religious It's have you seen that,
by the way, bits and pieces of it. I you know, we
we've talked about this. I've gone on my little screen about this before.
But like, like, first of all, I find Bill Maher to be
so smug, yeah that I can't hear what he says. It's true,
he's just I want to like him, I can't. Yeah, and what
he you know, what he tries to do. But yeah, there and
there are people like that that I think that I agree with, but there
their methods and things like that are just so distasteful that I'm like, come
on, come on, I'm not dry fuss, come on, but no,
I've seen bits and pieces of it. And I've said this before.
I think that taking the lofty approach of pointing out the holes in someone's belief
system is like, uh, you know what that doesn't accomplish anything for anyone.
It gives atheists a bad name. It just irritates people of faith,
and faith helps people some people, you know, like and faith hurts people.
You know, it's anything Eminem's help and hurt. You know, everything
does. It depends on what you do with it. But you can't just
sit there and be like, dear idiots, Yeah, you bore Bestard's like,
it's so smug. In the movie, he goes to the the what
is it a christ Disney or whatever it is. It's a huge theme park.
But he goes to the guy that actually plays Jesus, which I'm sure
is a really highly sought after roll down there. You know, it's like
looking after that. Yeah, But he talks to this guy and is like,
have you ever heard of Mithra? Or actually I think he doesn't even
do that. I think he says, if I if I were to say,
you know who was born on December twenty fifth and had three wise men
visited and was a savior and was crucified and then came back to life,
you know who am I talking about? And they're like, well, you're
talking about Jesus. No, I'm talking about Mythra. I'm idiot, you
know, right, that's that that's kind of what what they're claiming here.
So I think Christians can rightly feel a little attacked in that well, because
they are being attacked. I mean, yeah, yeah, well when you
put it that way, as opposed to laying out the information just saying hey,
look, which I think probably what we're going to do right now.
Here's here's all the stuff that was happening at the time when Christianity was was
just beginning, it was putting its roots down. This is how both things
came to be or not to be, that's the question. And so I
think atheists, we say atheists as a general term, I feel like because
not all atheists are doing this, not all, no, not at all.
Not all non atheists are attacking, but many, many on each side,
I think, get really up in arms about either defending from it or
provoking or attacking. Like it just goes back and forth. So here's some
information for you. Let's see what we can what we've dug up here.
As a as an overview, Yeah, this claim, that's that's been gaining
popularity, I would I would say recently, is that the figure of Jesus
the Christ is nothing more than a copier of earlier pagan deities, including Horace,
Addis, Dionysis, Krishna. Yep. Christians deny this claim and its
components, usually by replying with or so what and cool story, cool story,
cool story, brow and sometimes they're right. Non nonbelievers cite numerous examples
in mythology and religious history as evidence against the current view of Jesus and Christianity
in general. I think current view is important to point out. Yeah in
this too, So is there a right or wrong? What's the truth behind
this? Let's go into what Mythritism is. Yeah, myth So many claimants
rally around Mithra as the best model of the Jesus figure. So who was
Mithra and what was Mythraism. Mythraism was what scholars call a mystery religion due
to the fact that it maintained strict secrecy about its teachings and practices, revealing
them only two initiates yep. Because of this, there is almost no literary
evidence about the beliefs of Mythrism, and the few texts we do have come
from early Christian leaders who attacked it or philosophers who sought its symbolism to further
their own ideas. That's that's very similar to what we were running into.
And we'll actually run into the same exact problem of the problems of Roman descriptions,
just like we talked about in the Druids. The Roman historians writing about
the Druids, well, there's a real bend to that, you know,
there's a perspective that's not necessarily the most affair and balanced one. And the
same thing here with early Christian historians writing out these descriptions of you know,
a competitor competing product. Absolutely. What we do have, though is a
ton of archeological sites and artifacts such as temples, statues, paintings, things
like that. And this iconography tells us a great deal. But Mythrism has
been difficult to decipher, to say the least. Yeah, I mean,
and we're we'll get to it in a little bit. But at times in
its uh in its history which we're going to cover, I mean, Mythrism
was was called the cult of Mithra, and that that's secrecy. Very small
groups working quietly with with you know, worshiping Mythra in their own way.
Um, and we'll we'll get to that in the future. But yeah,
it makes it a difficult um religion to study. Yeah, and before I
forget, because I'll forget later. I just know it will. I just
know, dude, I'll just I'll just forget. Come down, dude,
you'll be okay. Um, the cults in Roman society, diva doesn't right,
Oh, go all over the place. Yep. You you can't swing
a dead Caesar. You can't swing a dead Caesar. Can't swing a dead
Caesar without hit and a cult Mythraism is generally considered to be of Persian origins
and an outgrowth of Zerostrianism, though which we keep talking about doing an episode.
We should do an episode on zerostrit And with them someday. I don't
think it's something a lot of people know about. But it's not. But
we really we yeah, we really actually like we scheduled it and did the
research and then pulled the plug out. We did. Yeah, we did
a full reverse because it just blew our minds so much. We decided society
couldn't handle it. False but no, it's it was. It's fascinating then
at the same time completely boring. Yeah, exactly, there's there's nothing wild
going on. In Zarasta Town. Like if if you like mythology and ancient
people's maybe it's up your alley. Yeah, but yeah, they know it's
it's it's just it's a it's a faith. It's a belief system that people
believed in, and they, I mean, Southwestern American snake handlers are more
interesting by a long shot. I'll tell you this one thing I learned.
They really venerated dogs. Dogs were a really sacred animal, a lot of
them being psychopomps, Dave psychopomps, which I think is man tangent, which
I think is interesting because I feel like modern Middle Eastern cultures view dogs as
the lowest of the low, the unclean. You know they call maybe it's
a it's a long run historical reaction. Huh Yeah, I don't know.
So yeah, yeah, maybe Islam comes in. It's like we don't want
to and I don't know, like I don't maybe there's something to it.
Yeah yeah, Can we never do the episode episode of zarastrious Zarastrianism versus as
long? Can we never ever ever ever do that? Write that on the
white board. Um So, this mythrism was an outgrowth of Zarastrianism, though
not of Zoroaster's teachings. Yeah, I guess that would make a lot more
sense to you if we had done an episode on it. But just hang
with us here, We'll we'll get you through. An argument could be made
for it being more of a Roman invention. Now this also I don't want
to forget about. Don't let me forget the Persian myth Rate and the Roman
Mythrism. I think. I don't think I'll forget it, but I may.
The name Mithra later adapted into the Greek as myth Russ. In Roman,
you'll see myth Russ with an S on the end. A lot is
from an old Persian god of covenants, contracts, truth, cattle, and
the waters, also known as Mythra of wide pastures of the thousand years,
and myriad eyes, the lofty, the everlasting, the province ruler, the
spoken name. Holy. Guy's got a lot of names. Yeah, he's
wearing a lot of metals. Yeah, almost as many as Smedley Butler.
That's not inside joke, Folks, go back and listen to the business plot
episode. And he was also a member of the Pentaverat almost the Ahiic triad
with a Hira Mazda and a Pamna pat a trinit a triple triple aspect is
three three gods triune. Hiramazda was the the number one stunner of the of
Zarastrian religion. If you think of religions Zastrianism and there a Hiromazda, that's
who you think of. That's that's the number one. That's that's god Um.
Mythra was in there pretty much second in line, and then a Pamna
pat was kind of like the Poseidon of this religion. Y. But those
were the big three, and mythras Um comes from this this Persian god.
That name is most likely derived from the Indo Iranian Mitra, which means that
which causes to bind and was a divinity of Indic culture who protected treatises,
but in later Vedic texts became associated with the morning sun, and in post
Vedic texts, Uh, stay with me if you can't hear patron of friendship.
So let's summarize this early early Vedic he was a he protected treatises,
and then he became associated with the morning sun, and then he later became
the friendship god. Yeah, that's a that's the progression. Well, I
don't want to go through the whole thing. But there's a real case to
be made that he is the basis for day Man. He's the champion of
the Sun and he wants to bring freedom and friendship to everyone. Or was
it it's something something friendship to everyone. I think the Mithra might be the
historical basis for Datra day Man Mitra. See this is how it's good starting.
Yeah, he debates, so h this this deity doesn't really have anything
to do with Mithra in Persia besides the name though, that's kind of put
him to the side. It's like a they put baby in the corner.
The Persian Mithra, according to the Avesta, which is the primary collection of
sacred texts of his Rastrianism, was not the god of light or the sun,
as some sources claim. If anything, he was conflated with the Babylonian
Shamesh, who was a sun god but also a judge. Now Mithra was
questions of conflation aside Mythra. Mithra was considered a judge too. He was
the overseer of contracts. He people could bring their grievances to him, he
would he would judge that. So that could be where the conflation started,
and then it ended up with Mithra being a associated with the Sun when it
was really Sha Mesh in Babylon. That's that's I think there's even a gosh.
I didn't write it down, but there's a different name for him,
a sun god in Zarastrianism. We're busted, dude. I mean, let's
start over. Let's start. We're gonna get whaled one by ours Erostran.
Listen, let's start over. Let's start. Many claimants rally around myth reas
the best model of the Jesus feature. Yea nothing, nothing nothing. So
this conflation continued in the Hellenistic era when Apollo got in the mix. By
that time, myth Russ because it's Greek now, because he was already confused
with the sun god from from Babylon. Then Apollo and Mythruss got confused.
So Mythriss is driving the chariot of the Sun across. And keep in mind,
you know, this is not a hard thing to have happened, um,
especially when everything's oral. Exactly, That's exactly my point. These are
these are you know, these are these are faced told by regional traders.
They bring their religion with them on the road. They are trading with these
other cultures, they're talking about their beliefs. It's all oral. There's no
book, there's no pamphlet, there's no manual, um. And so these
things get mixed up so much. And you and that's where you I mean,
that's I don't know, that's sort of the name of the game with
these things is that they mix culturally and they they they moved to different parts
of the area, and that's how they get moved through trade. But it
is this the this oral approach to it that means that things get confused or
things. Oh that guy sounds a little bit like Apollo. Hey guess what,
uh, back east they've got they've gotten Apollo too, but they call
a Mitra. But it's pretty much the same guy. It sounds like sounds
like they got Apollo, but they call it you know, so everyone's like,
oh, it's just like our guy, but you know it's our guy.
So yeah, they they've got a different name. And these things get
very confused. And and I think that's cool though, I mean, there's
a cool anthropology to that that I enjoy. Yeah. And um Zerostrianism,
the monotheistic Iranian religion slash philosophy carwash took shape between one thousand and two thousand
BC. You know what, I just you know what, Zerostrianism they call
it mono monotheistic um. That's because of Hira Mozdo sat on top. Yeah,
he was the guy. The mythra and the rest of the the deities
kind of got declassified into angels, right, and which is which is weird
because by that, by that rule, then um, the Greek pantheon is
monotheistic with Zeus at the top, and then everyone else is just kind of
bickering. And you know what I mean, like, well, m yes,
and no, I don't think the Greek god's got declassified as angels.
Yeah, you're right, you're right, sort of semi divine. They were
all still they never got demoted, no matter how much weird they got into
and board they should do. So sorry about that. But Mythraism as a
cult took shape around the third century BC. Your Zorostrianism had been reformed in
the seventh century by zarath zarathustra Um. I'm sorry that this is I'm sorry
for this. Well, no, I mean I would much rather you know,
we get through the factual data than make some gigantic mistake about it,
because this isn't you know, It's just there's no frame of reference for any
of this, is there. That's that's why we need a Zarostrian as an
episode, I guess. But who will want to listen? Well, that's
the thing, you know what we can't now because we're gonna cover enough of
it in this one that we couldn't even we can. He just did it?
Enjoy your two fer. So it was reformed in the seventh century by
Zarathustra, making a Ramasa, supreme god of goodness, and the god Alreman
the ultimate embodiment of evil, and all other gods brushed off to immortals slash
adored ones slash angel. I guess I thought about that as I was writing.
Well anyway, However, being regarded as second most powerful and a mediator
between Ahura, Mazda and man, cults sprang up to worship Mithra and he
became a dashing holy being of protection. Hello Mithra, Hi Mithra, nice
to meet you. Do you need to contract verified kid a dance? Would
you like your past year watched over? I'm great with cattle, I'm Mithra.
I should get sick every episode. Yeah you should, it's really linnen
itself. It's worth it. It's the only way I feel pretty. He
Mithra was omniscient, good looking, strong wise, and always lift the toilet
set down. Mmmmmm. While not the deity of the sun, as we
have already said, he presided over its light. This figure was just a
weird way to split a hair. Who was sure? Yeah? What if?
I mean, what if? I Flora, you and I are gonna
split being in charge of the sun. Um, I'm in charge of the
light and you're in charge of everything else. I'm making the grave light happened,
and you're a gravity well solar solar wind. That's all you, bro,
it's all you fish and reaction. Yeah, your job and try to
keep the sun spots to a minimum. Okay, Yeah, let's let's watch
that corona. Butter well, I enjoy a corona over the light. This
figure, the one who presided of the light, the good looking guy.
He was adopted by the Greeks and called Mithris, which we said, and
first identified with the sun god Helios. Hey, I do know that guy's
name. Yeah, he's at the actual chariot driver, right, Yeah,
Apollo's nut see now I'm conflating it. Jeez, Louise to mithra Uh,
I'm just trying to put some energy into this. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I blame myself. During the first century BC and into CE, Roman
military campaigns brought the ideas of mythrate cults back from the front lines, and
Mythraism began to gain popularity with soldiers from Germanic territories to Spain, even up
to Hadrian's Wall. I told you them that those cults would come back,
and now we have arrived at that moment, the moment that I told you
about, Well, that's here right now. What's happening right now is the
thing I told you about. Then then has may come now ready for water?
When will then be? Now? Soon? Now? The Roman cult
of mythrusts that had a couple of weird things. First of all, men
only, no thanks, ladies only um. Their meetings always took place in
underground caves a new crown keys, oh my, oh my. And the
other interesting thing is that the cult of mythress these these archaeologically, they didn't
start finding these caves because the other the other interesting thing that all these caves
had a relief plaque of of Mythrusts slaying the bull. And um, these
things didn't start showing up until the very end of the first century. So
these these two religions were very much co cohabiting. Um. You had the
early the rise of early Christianity at the same time that the cult of mythrust
was really picking up speed. Um. So to say as far as the
Roman cult, I had to be very clear about that. As far as
the Roman cult, this is very much a contemporary alternative religion. At the
same time. You know, these these two these two religious systems are are
are happening at the same time different you know, different temples, different worshiping
and Christianity as a cult as well at this time exactly. Yeah, this
is this is also an underground cult. This is the time, um.
You know where the the ichthus the fish symbol is used, because that was
the way you identified other Christians. A person would would mark out on the
ground one arc and if you were cool, if you were down and not
a cop, you would make of you would make the inverse arc that would
make the fish the ichthus. And so again you know that these are both
for different reasons. The Christians being actively persecuted, and the the Mythruss,
the cult of Mithrus by its own volitions, saying we are a secret organization.
We are a secret society. We meet in caves underground, and there
are seven there's seven levels to the order that you could go through. Um
and all of it hearkens back into what we've discussed a million times, all
these secret orders of of nineteenth century England. Um. There's a lot of
those sorts of things happening um in the Roman architecture as well. Yeah.
Yeah. When I say architecture, I mean of like the organization of the
Roman legions and the armies and things like this. Societal Yeah, yeah.
Judaism was already uh hopping at this time, well established, long suffering.
Yeah yeah, but it was it was tolerated in the Rome, in Roman
society better than tolerated well yeah, I mean they there was. It was.
I read some really interesting things about this that at the time Judaism was
much more evangelical than it is now. People would stand on street corners and
proclaim the faith of Judaism. Um. People were you could be very respected.
There wasn't it was. It was actually a very prosperous time. For
Jewish people in the Roman Empire, they it was it was easy for them
to integrate with Roman society. And it was not to say that they were
becoming m aristocrats in the in the Romans society, I think they still had
a hard row to hoe though, right, I mean, only very few
could rise to It's very hard. It's hard to say because of how big
the Roman Empire was chronologically, but there were times when, yes, there
were Jewish aristocrats, and there were you know, it's it's it's such a
long amount of time. You can't say, oh, in Roman times everything
was great. But there were times in in the Roman Empire where actually where
Jewish people could rise very prominently. Um, And there were times and again,
you know, I don't have to tell you even just like the cursory
blush of history, things change a lot when emperors change, that's true,
you know. So so it's it's like the weather, you know. Sometimes
it's a it's a good time to be in an underground myth rist cult.
Sometimes you know, stocks and Judaism are on the rise. You know,
it's it's a tough thing to call um. And sometimes even the Roman emperor
declares himself to be a Christian and then it's great, and then sometimes he's
like, hey, who wants to find lions? You know, like it
really it's a tough tough thing to really put one pin in and say,
oh, this is how it was very true if you want to, if
you want a good look at it. I think the the HBO series Rome
handles the view on Jews at that time very well. I guess I've never
seen it. I don't know nothing about it. Oh man, you should
see it? Is that the one with well done? Is that the one
that's your thing? Of Spartacus, which is uh, I haven't seen that
one either, But stars, I think I just like Zena. You'll get
to see a lot of Zena if you watch it, Okay, you'll get
to see a lot of Zena. Oh it's like that. Yeah, it's
like that sweet yeah for a long time. All right, it's time for
puns. No listener mel today. Yeah, but yeah, one of the
characters, one of the main characters, well like secondary characters on Rome,
is Jewish, and there's some minds that that come up where it's there's like
an uprising in there. I won't spoil anything, but it's it's neat.
It's it's neat to see it happened two thousand years ago. If you haven't
heard of it by now, there's no spoilers anyway. Other other stuff was
was cults of this time. There's a lot of a lot of cults springing
up. Every everybody's trying to to be top dog, you know, they're
they're and even even within a single religious ideology, there are innumerable subcults,
and you know, it's I really wonder what it was like, like did
the because myth the mythra cults in Rome in the Empire, Because everyone was
so local, It wasn't a whole overarching like church, you know you oh,
I'm part of Mythra High you know Gall Mythra guy High Rome mythra Yeah,
High Sicily Mythra guy. It was like everything. Every locality had their
own type of way they they practiced and viewed mythraism. Yeah. And I
didn't see anything that suggested that there was a larger overarching organization to it.
I think that these were all very individual cells. And I don't think from
and again, I you know, I from what I read and everything all
the research I did, I didn't see at any point where like oh,
but when the when the Legions came back to Rome, they'd all get together
in the big hall of Mythra and hang out. I think that these were
these were semi or entirely permanently isolated cells, as it were, of a
very and I especially um, I mean the culti Mythras was very very prevalent
in the Roman army. And I can even see that within you know,
in the Legions, an unintentional but still military structure to it. These are
all military guys. That's a that's a format that that fits well with them.
And if if my unit has this belief and this is what we do,
we're not going to run around to other units and talk to them about
it. And when you have and just like um, you know, so
many other organizations to follow. But there is a rank involved. There are
the seven seven different positions you can achieve within the order, and so there's
a rank within a military organization. You know, like all of those things
say hey, we're inclusive, We're we're not looking to go find I'm going
to sorry, we're exclusive. We were not looking to find anybody else.
We don't want to high five the other myth rights, right right, just
do it the way we do it. And I wonder how that is as
as an early cult that may grow into a religion. You know, it's
in that infant stage of what a religion is. Did it was there anybody
that wanted it to or did they even know that that could be possible or
were they just concentrated on their locality and like this, this is us,
this is how we're worshiping this. We're happy, you know, like it's
it's weird to think of that. Uh, and Christianity, but the same
way, exact same way. I mean, like I think this is this
is something that might be worth looking into in the future. But wasn't the
Essenes and the Gnostics weren't they sort of the same way. They were kind
of branches of Christianity that taught their own or had their own books, their
their own scripture. Yeah, and there were there were so many of them.
And we've talked about the Council of Nicea in the past, right right
until someone sat down and said, okay, DOOKI, here's the Bible.
Yeah, this is you. You're in, you you're out. Not the
so fast dagon fighting Jesus Gospel. According to Thomas and no, yeah,
no, we already have a four. So yeah, there's there was a
lot of that that that brought it all back together again because there were so
many departures, I guess is a good way to say that, as good
as any. But the interesting thing though, to Christianity, and I don't
know off the top of my head pre assembly of the Bible or post,
but I mean the current I mean the modern Christianity as I guess what I
would define as post counsel of Nicia. It has that built in and we've
talked about this before, um memetic idea of expansion of go forth and share
the good news. As iron sharpens iron, so does one man sharpened another
go out and tell your neighbor, you get this guy in bring People in
the Mythrick Cult had none of that. They were like, don't tell anybody,
That's why they were a mystery culture. Yeah exactly, you know,
like and so there are some really powerful differences in their organization that the Cult
of Mithress, Like you know, you don't stand on the street corner and
tell everybody about it, like will we'll call you. That's what their official
motto us. As you mentioned, they worshiped in these small caves. For
lack of a better term, but it was they were. They had small
temples called Mithraia which they built. They were they were just little rectangular subterranean
chambers, and they were intended to imitate an image of the cosmos. Apparently,
that's most of the stuff that we're drawing from, is the leading theories.
Since we don't have writings at the time, We've got all this iconography.
Scholars have pulled these these ideas. You're if you're in the cult to
myth Rests and we'recking this up, please send us an email, invite us
in. Please do. I'd like to know if Mythrism it's still out there.
Awesome In the mythraia and aisle ran lengthwise down the center with a stone
bench on either side of it, and it could hold usually they could hold
about twenty to thirty people at a time, and at the back end of
the aisle was usually a carving statue or painting of the central icon of Mythraism,
which you've already mentioned, the roctany Yeah, or the bull slang scene.
In it mithra is shown killing a bull with a dog and snake lapping
the bull's blood. A scorpion stinging its rear. Sometimes it's balls, Oh,
come on, and a raven I never read seated nearby? Oh oh
no, no no. Also, uh, there's a scorpion. What is
it gonna sting him? Of course it's gonna sting him? But where I
don't know, Like the face. Yeah, let's put on the face.
There's too much there, dude, there's too muche there. It's really busy
at the dog and the knife. What are you gonna sting him in the
hoof in a minute, I got it. Are you be kidding me?
Are you thinking I'm thinking? Oh my god, it's gonna get stuck at
the balls? Wait wait, wait check this out? Ching ching ching ching,
ching, ching, ching ching ching ching. Right, no, no
way, Yeah, that's what happens when you have a cult. That's all
men. No, there's nobody moderating that sort of thought process too. I
was. I listened to one podcast where the guy was like, yeah,
and the and the scorpion was was stinging the testicles of the bull and the
the the guy who was whose podcast it was or whatever, he was like,
wait a minute, he was stinging in the testicles. What does that
what is what iconography does that entail? Like? What does that mean?
The guy's like, I don't know, I don't know what that means.
Just it's just real bad to be the bull. That's the moral of the
story is, you don't want to be the bull. Mithraya were found all
over the Empire, mostly in Rome, but like we said, there's been
some even found in Britain. Yeah, and from the first to fourth century
CE, Roman Mythraism was popular as a semi unrecognized cult recognized and I saw
it at a bus stop, having you thought you did, having evolved into
its own mystery religion with new and distinctive imagery, Uh, separate from the
Persian. Yeah, let's let's say the Persian Mythrism, mithra and other gods
eventually melded into the Roman soul or sometimes you'll hear soul invictus, which is
the unconquered Sun. A lot of them kind of blended into this one idea
of a of a deity that was based on the Sun, that it would
it had you know it was the Sun. You can't you can't put it
down, can't argue it can't can't do anything, and as Christianity became tolerated
and then later accepted with Constantine, most cults or quote unquote pagan religions were
snuffed out by force. Yeah, I think of it as Constantine. This
is what you were saying with the winds of change are um farted out by
Caesar's or so. But Constantin came in. He said, you know what,
you know, who's pretty cool? Damn Christians? Let's all do it.
You know how cool they are? Kill everyone else? Wait, wait,
give them a chance to convert. Yeah, if they won't do it,
but we both know you're gonna end up killing them. You're gonna kill
them. Yeah, you go. You gotta light the way they die.
I can. I can do that voice this episode. We're doing a two
episode trying today. You're gonna get double this. Yeah, you are as
you said. Colt was limited demand, which probably shot itself in the foot,
consisted overwhelmingly of those who were not quite poor but not elite, although
there are some cases where some of the Caesars in the ruling class did kind
of like Apple in it. What's with the economic middle ground sausage party where
the girls Oh no, no, no, not only are we economically bland.
There'll be no ladies here, and it's in a hole in the ground.
Come in and we got scorpions, bullballs. Hey, did you see
this picture over here? Look at a ball? Getting it is getting it?
You know what you want to know what that means? Get initiated?
Yeah. In the Mithraia, members partook of a cult meal, which was
a ritual memorial of a feast Mithras shared with the Sun or Helios. If
you want to go to the Greek ground, I've got the list of the
ranks. Yeah, let's not a secret anymore. They we've we've sussed it
out. Let's get them ranks going. Yeah, how about how about the
ranks? What can you achieve in the Cult of Mithra All right, so
say say that I'm a hard working legionnaire. You're a hard working legionaire,
maybe even a centurion if I'm really good at it, but not a cylon
And and you know my leg it. My buddy Abraxis says to me,
Oi, didn't I Hey, you look like you're having a lot of problems.
And I've been like, a sure ram, have you thought about God?
And I was like, yeah, but which one? And he goes,
maybe I have the answers. Listen, I'm gonna draw you a quick
picture. Scrabble, scrabble, scrabble, what's happened to that poll's ball?
You can find out more? And he is like, okay, I would
like to find out more. So then he's like, great, I'm now
a core Rax Flora, which is a Raven level one, the Raven level
one Corax Don't Don't do Didn't do Do Do Do do gooding good good level
two. And the thing with all these is all members were apparently expected to
progress through the first four ranks, while only a few would go into the
three higher. Just keep the end of mine. Yeah, level two,
I'm want to pretend it. Did you remember that old Nintendo game Kung Fu?
Yeah, one of the very first ones. It was. It was
terrible, wasn't it? Oh it was great? And yeah, you just
punch guys and every now and then the big boss would laugh at you and
go, yeah, did you how far did you get in that? I
never made it past the first level. Oh it was like a swinging guillotine
at one point or something. Right, No, if you if you get
way up there, I mean, like the hard thing is like there's the
little midgets that run up and get you, and then there's uh the flying
like vases that have snakes in them or something. Then there's like the Wizard,
there's backflips or some jazz. I don't remember it very well, but
I remember. I don't think I ever beat it, but I got up
there tough. Yeah, as those early games were. So the second one
Nymphis Nymphis, which I've seen it a couple of ways, but you can
translate it as Bride or maybe Bridesmen. Yeah. Yeah, Well, I
mean if you translated as Bride, everyone's going to feel like, oh,
what kind of cult am I entering into? Right? Like I want to
go back to Korax and what kind of cult is going to be entering into
me? Oh no, no, it's hazing. Well, that's the thing.
I mean. These guys are soldiers. They're out in the middle of
nowhere. They're Roman a hell if I know, well, it's not my
job to figure it out. Is it maybe a little I don't know?
Level three three Miles. Hello, I'm Miles, and I'm also known as
the Soldier. I think I think they pronounced it milays. I'm calling it
Miles, but it's spelled Miles melais. Don't try to help. Yeah,
try harder, then you'll call me a try harder. Yeah, I think
hard I think I know that from a funny thing happened on the way to
the forum because one of the characters and there's Meleas Gloriosis and he's like the
big soldier guy. All right, meal as you win, ge Chez Mithra
four Mithra the Christ, the mister Christ. Dude, come on level four
of the of the you know, the the average ranks. Yes, this
is the highest one that the normal person can change any any layer ties Jim
jam and Xerxes can get to this one. This was Leo, which also
is the Lion. If you didn't get that, m are you sure it's
not Leo lately? Leo Leoh listen, dude, if you want a penalty
box, I'll give it. Trying to save your ass from litigation, yeah,
well nothing can I can't save myself. No one can save me.
I'm a recidivist. All right. So so now now you're you're one of
the elite of the elite. You said, no, I'm a career myth
r night. That's how important this is to me, I want to go
above and beyond. Yeah, myth Risian, myth Risian. Yeah, Leo
is great, it's awesome. But I think I think I'm that rare guy.
They can make it all the way to the rank of Percy's the Persians,
fifth rank, fifth rank, rank five, Percy's the Persian. But
you don't want to stop there, No, you don't, of course not.
You are ambitious. The only reason you decided to exceed rank for us
that you could attain rank seven. But to get to rank seven, but
you got to go through rank six like everybody, like everybody, and that
means you're gonna go through heliodromas. The sudden Courier heliodromas. That's my favorite.
Yeah, I would stop there. It's a it's a cool title.
It is. It's a really cool title. They should have saved it for
the end, but they didn't. They didn't. It seems like it should
be seven. Yeah, the Sun god Son Courier. If you're running messages
for the Sun, that's true, son, but that's not how they did
it because they do what they want instead. Rank seven is ball stinger.
You're the stinger of balls and you have a little thin stick with a thorn
on the end of it, and you just walk around is whopp tag tag?
What are you gonna do? Rank seven? Whap no. Rank seven
is Potter Pater the father. Fili got right, the Fater, It's right,
makes sense. Ball stinger would be way more fun. But and Heliodromus
is just the coolest. You're the father. Your poperis stingis I love it
when you call me big pop Buh. That's the seven. That's the seven
ranks. The new Initiate became a Corerax, while the Leo was an adept.
The titles of the first four ranks suggests the possibility that advancement through the
ranks was based on introspection and spiritual growth. Yeah, so you really had
to look inside yourself if you wanted to get a heliod roma with them.
Yeah, and you know what, you know, one thing that really pissed
everybody off is like, once once a guy tagged in the balls. But
so that's just it. Once once a guy goes Percy's like, hell,
he's like, guys stopped. It's just really really immature for you to joke
about the stinging bull balls and they're like, really, that's hilarious. Are
you really you're gonna try to be above it? Guys, It's it's about
a bull that's getting tortured trying not to Could we just be adults? And
you're like, man, those ranks the weight. You're trying to tell me
that to become an advanced initiate, I have to stop laughing at that tortured
bull. A man, you can keep your cult. Thanks, iced tea.
So that's a little bit about mythraism itself. So what are the claimed
similarities? Yeah, what does this have to do with Jesus the croy Let's
do this. Let's get in the arena, let's let's let's slug this out.
Let them host fight right right. Here's a quick list the Hot Billboard
Hot Hot chart that says Mithra and Jesus are the same. Here's what you'll
hear often. Mithress preceded Christianity by roughly six hundred years. Mithriss was born
of a virgin on December twenty fifth. He was considered a great teacher and
had twelve disciples. Mithress also performed miracles. Mithress was called the Good Shepherd,
the Way, the Truth, and the Light Redeemer. Savvier and Messiah
Yo called a lot of things. He was buried in a tomb, and
after three days he rose again, and his resurrection was celebrated every year wow
with choking candy crosses. Mythraism had a Eucharist or Lord's Supper that involved consecrated
bread and wine YO and their initiation ceremonies included a baptism to remove sins.
There are a lot more that are claimed have been claimed between Mythrists and Jesus.
These are the ones we're going to hit. Yeah, good time.
Yeah, that's a pretty good I mean, believe me. That's I mean,
that's twice as long, it's twice as many things. That was as
we need to just to get through this. That's all right, So let's
start at the top. Myth was preceded Christianity by roughly six hundred years.
This from the research I did, I'm gonna say this is true. Mythrism
preceded Christianity by almost two thousand years. It evolved as it grew and gained
popularity in the first century CE until Constantine said Christianity was okay and the emperor
Theodosius issued anti pagan decrees in the late fourth century. I think you can
argue which mythrism you want to you want to send into the fight. Yeah,
it's not just yeah. The hard thing is when you have any belief
system that's been around for that long, there's you're not just dealing with a
monolithic this is mythraism. There's a lot of right version. But as we
went through the idea of this central figure, Mithra definitely came early on in
one of the oldest religions, one of the oldest, and you can even
say monotheistic religions. I think even with all the evolving and branches, I
think you can say, yes, this figure did precede the Christ figure,
the Jesus figure. Yes, yes, I agree with that. Let's move
on to the second when Mithress was born of a virgin on December twenty fifth.
I'm calling this one mostly false. Yep, yep. There are conflicting
stories of mithress birth, one being he was born of the goddess Anahita,
the goddess of water, fertility, and wisdom. Anahita was said to have
conceived Mithress from the seed of Zarathushtra preserved in the waters of Lake Hammun in
the Persian province of sustain Wow, nadaba, that's what i'd sound. I'm
like where jazz. The name Anahita can be translated as immaculate or pure.
However, could not find a credible source for that story. You didn't believe
me, Bro, you don't think I'm credible. I told you that story
myself. Cool story, Bro, but sided new. The other account comes
from interpretations of art and artifacts showing my threat emerging from rock in a cave
or egg shaped structure, sometimes with a snake wrapped around it. He is
an adult. He's naked and wearing only a soft bent hat called a phrygian
cap. Oh, I've got the phrygian cap in Diablo. It's like plus
extra dexterity. And see, you know you know everything about Diablo, but
it sounds like you're making everything up. Everything that's gone out of your mouth
since fake its ship. Why? I don't know. Maybe that's my that's
my curse that I can. I know what I'm talking about, but it
sounds like I'm lying all the time. Man. I spent the entirety of
April first, April Fool's Day, doing the worst Apri Old fools I could
to people. Just Won was like, um, hey, um, did
you did you you see that that um to toe truck was like towing your
car And I was like you hold on, I'll go get the person.
And then he's like no, and everyone was like that is the worst April
Fools. I was like, I win. I was just trying to do
really crappy April fools all day. Jes not popular, not popular where I
work. It's he's lying. Um, there's uh, there's the Gospel of
Thomas, which was not included in the Council of Nicia that that said Jesus
was born in a cave. Actually is Thomas? The Book of Thomas?
Is that the No, it wasn't. It was trying to I'm trying to
think of the book that had Jesus fighting the dragon that was left out Enock.
Maybe yeah, I think you're right. I think it was Enoch.
Maybe it was ju believe. Uh the date is false for both boom for
both ain't No one got claimed a December twenty fifth, A festival celebrating soul
Invictus was celebrated on the twenty fifth and was adopted by or maybe swept up
called beliefs at the time We've talked about that. Yep, not soul invictus.
But how how you do when you need to convert the pagans? Yep,
you slurp up their beliefs and call him your own and then switcheroo agoom.
How about the third one, Dave, he was considered a great teacher
and had twelve disciples. Well you have right, yeah, we got we
got mixed mixed opinions on this one. Yeah, it could be true,
it could be false, some of it. Not the disciple question, which
is a little easier to get to. There's some confusion they're regarding disciples,
but also in its Rostrinism, the zodiac, the twelve signs of the zodiac,
but is a part of the you know, the uh, the signs
of the zodiac. I mean, even even the even our poor leaguered bull
was considered to be you know, a representation of Perseus slaying um Taurus Taras.
Yeah. Yeah, thus the name Tarrocteny. Yeah, Mithra. He
wasn't a traveling teacher like Jesus, like Jesus, but was considered a judge.
He was wise and just, and people could come to him in love
to invoke help healing sanctification, etc. And yeah, it was. It
was believed he was surrounded by the twelve signs of the zodiac, which were
popular or Austrianism, though that's still just a theory. In fact, it's
been argued that the tarrocteny is a representation of constellations that were prevalent in the
time of Mithra's popularity. Mithra is seen as Perseus Perseus from Greek myth the
dude who say who slew Medusa? Mark camp not Mark Camel. Harry Hamlin,
Harry Hamlin. That's right, that's it, And it's shown he's shown
killing the bull Taurus as the constellations replaced each other in the sky. See
every two thousand, one hundred and sixty years, the equinoxes moved through one
zodiacal constellation. We may have mentioned this in one of the Apocalypse episodes.
I may have mentioned it during the Young episode Hell of foul lever No.
The Age of Aries began around two thousand BC, replacing the Age of Taurus,
and this is theorized to be the basis of the taurocteny. During the
Age of Taurus, the celestial equator passed through Taurus. The bull which was
the spring equinox of that of that epoch. Canus minor, the dog Hydra,
the snake Corvus, the raven and Scorpio, the scorpion Corvus all present
in the turocteny Yep. The thought is that Mithra had the power to move
the cosmos. Jesus twelve disciples may have been the physical representations of the twelve
tribes of Israel, and the number twelve represented divine authority and completeness. Other
cultures held twelve in esteem, though for example, poor example, how about
the twelve Nindanas of Buddhism, the twelve main gods, gods and goddesses of
Greek mythology, twelve labors of Hercules, Hercules, Hercules, and the universal
completeness of the twelve pack. This is how societies build themselves around the number
twelve. So in a way, that's it's kind of a wash. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's more than a coincidence, but the two aren't
really related. It was just in Mediterranean culture is that number twelve carried a
lot of power and people would would build things out of that, and not
every non Mediterranean culture had twelve as a yeah, you know, so it's
you can go both ways in the argument that that twelve was important in some
cultures, but I think you can argue twelve was just another number in other
cultures. Eat like, I don't, nobody's really gaining a foothold. And
in this argument, yeah, so let's let's just keep going. How about
the claim that myths was called the Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth,
and the Light, Redeemer Savior Matthiah. He's from Barcelona, from Barcelona,
Methia yahm a yah. Hey, this is mostly false. Mythor had
a lot of titles, and Redeemer Savior was among them. Both religions were
redemptive, but those exact titles probably came from scholars seeking to draw parallels.
Well. But also, I mean, when you're when you're the the central
deity or or I guess what would you call that terrestrial abbot, are the
earthbound aspect of a god or whatever you are. I mean, the CEO
of every country, of every company is the CEO. It doesn't mean they're
all the same guy. It's a you know, like if you're if you're
the top dog in your religion, people will refer to you as their savior,
as you know, as all those things, you will be praised similarly
because you hold that position. I don't I think that. I'm sure it's
totally true that they were both called all those things, and that that doesn't
doesn't mean they're the same thing. Yeah, yeah, true. How about
Mithress also performed miracles? Yep? What do you think of that one?
What do I think he did? I think he did. If you're if
you, I mean you get into my head, you got you got me
backed into a corner here, I'm gonna come out swinging. I'm gonna say,
yes he did. Yeah, yeah, I say true to this one.
And there's art depicting what has come to me known as the water miracle,
where Mithra fired a bolt into a rock causing it to gush water.
Magic missile. That's a that sounds like a common miracle. Yeah, I
don't know, but it doesn't mean it wasn't a miracle to them, Sticky,
sticky, But yes, I think if you're a deified figure, you're
probably performing miracles or there's there's stories about it. And I don't think that's
exclusive to any one deity. No, no, And as a matter of
fact, that's the hallmark of a deity that he has to do something extraordinary,
otherwise he's just a dude with a story. Now, Flora, speaking
of dudes of stories, what about the resurrection story? Oh, where he
was buried and resurrected after three days in a tomb? Yes, specifically,
he said, because it's Easter times this one, I'm going to go ahead
and say false. Oh nine geist tine geist mithread didn't die per se,
but was taken up to heaven in a flaming chariot, more akin to Elijah
than Jesus or the end of Greece or the end of Greece. Remember they
get inside the weird I'm clear. The hot rod that just inexplicably just launches
into the air, somebody does to you. There's no one who has ever
said get louder, harder or meant it more than the guy writing that screenplay.
How do we end? I don't know, Uh, magic hot rod?
Yeah, they just fly into the scar fly off and we're done here.
Okay, Yeah, this one, this one's I didn't find anything that
said, um mythro was I mean, Crucified's even been thrown out there,
right, Um No, no tomb, no resurrection, there is maybe the
parallel of being born again every year out of the rock as as like a
ritual that he was from his first birth. Whatever. But yeah, that
one's that one's a little weird, super weird. But that's not to say
that resurrection of a god was not a common thing. Yeah, that's a
very common theme that was found in a lot of the old religions. In
Egyptian religion is often thrown around Horace being a christ like figure for them.
That's an often one that's also bandied about with who Jesus actually was or came
from. Different again, a different resurrection story, different different aspects here and
there, but all coming down to the same like, oh, died either
saving humanity or for humanity or or for the greater good and then brought back
to life and rules for greater good or for greater good. Or how about
Mythraism had a Eucharist or Lord's supper that involved consecrated bread and wine. This
is true yesh Ish Anyway, there were feasts to recreate Mythras's last meal with
Helios before ascending into heaven, but a do this in remembrance of me was
not a part of that That can be verified anyway. You don't get take
this bread it is my body and put it in your mouth, or the
wine. I think they had all kinds of food. I think it was
just a feast. Yeah, I don't know that anything was particularly and when
you look at I mean, I find a religion that doesn't have a celebratory
feast in it. Well brown man, Yeah, I mean you're starting to
get the hang of it. I think at this point, right final one
that we got here. Their initiation ceremonies included a baptism to remove sins.
This one maybe true. Maybe. The early Christian writer Tertullian wrote that Mythrists
hundred the gods by washings and sprinkling water around. This may have been part
of the initiative initiation rights of new members to begin worship clean and free of
sin. I think that is verified. I don't. I don't know that.
It would be like where I'm taking all your sins, humanity, and
I'm now absolving you of of everything. Yeah, but a baptism in some
form or another, yes, to cleanse oneself. There was also apparently depictions
of bulls being sacrificed and the blood washing over people in a baptismal right,
that Caesars did that too, Yeah, that that's not an uncommon thing.
At the time, the blood of bulls um in sacrifices were was considered powerful.
Yeah, they and myth rest just can't can't leave that tambole alone anyway,
the bulls screwed. It's like, it's like the opposite of Hinduism.
You the bull is the least sacred thing you can find. Yeah, there's
a bullet, you'll see that bully. As for Krishna, Buddha, Horace,
zaroster Atis, Dionysis, all those guys, they all have about the
same similarities from one way or another, though none of them have exact characterization
as Jesus yep. And and for a lot of them chronologically, there's such
a huge gaps between them. And yeah, my opinion, was Jesus an
exact copy of a mythological figure? No, Nope, were certain traits and
ideas from other mythological figures and influence to early Christian writers and worshippers. I'd
have to say yes. I you know, I have a hard time with
them because it's when you say if it was influential, that that makes it
seem very linear but just culturally, people had a lot of very similar ideas.
I don't necessarily think anyone was saying, oh, well, this is
uh, you know, I heard about this mythras guy, this guy,
this guy, Mythra must be this guy must be like Mithra, and we'll
give them these things. But I think so many like what we just talked
about, so many religions and belief systems had so many overlapping ideas or reactions
from people that weren't necessarily linear. It's not like the people weren't saying,
oh, we'll take this from this one, and we'll take this from this
right right, U. But the idea of resurrection or an absolvement of sins
exact. Yeah, these were just common, common themes almost in what people
were looking for in in a god, in a in a religion. So
I don't I don't know if it's as linear as saying that was influenced by
them as so much as it was influenced by the prevailing culture at the time.
So so you're the difference to you is that this came first, So
that's where the next thing came from, as opposed to all these ideas had
been mixing around in history and right, yeah, at the end of it
exactly, I think everyone there was kind of like a common pool of things
that people were pulling out of. Yeah, yeah, which is like um,
something something for people to band together with, a fraternity, a common
commonality, and it also immunity. You can also bring it right back to
what we talked to at the beginning. Keep in mind that all these all
these ideas are moved primarily either by marching armies or by merchants, and so
you know, everyone there's there's there's language discrepancies, there's things that are there.
Everything, every story gets changed as it moves along, and so what
you end up with is just sort of kind of this this this commonality in
the center of all trade, which at you know, at the time we're
dealing with is rome Um in the center of the Roman Empire. You have
all these ideas and they're all kind of rendering into one general idea, and
then people are sort of taking things back out of that particular their penny jar
for their own beliefs. Sure well, I think as as you hear new
ideas, if it's not in your religion and it sounds good, then aren't
you going to want to find a way to make it to include it.
Yeah, and and and I don't think anyone goes as directly as I say,
that's a good idea to plug it in, but right, right,
But they like that idea, so the next time they tell the story,
maybe something and that, Yeah, it gets added in, and whoever's the
best storyteller wins. Yeah, and however has the sharpest sword. Also,
yeah, that also counts. Many claims for similarity emerged hundreds of years after
the New Testament began to be written. That's that's one thing that defenders of
Jesus the Christ will will say, not that Christianity borrowed from Mythrism, but
Mythrism borrowed retroactively from Christianity. The thought is that scholars have gone back and
people who are just straight up whole atheists are saying, no, all all
of your ideas were stolen from from Mithra right, And I can prove it's.
It's kind of a circular logic thing. Yeah, it's it's and it's
yeah, it's just as distasteful as the as the counter argument, you know,
Yeah, which is why you know, when we go through a list
like that and you break it down. Yeah. None, A lot of
that doesn't make sense. It's just some s sometimes straight up false claims.
H you got to look into it, but you but you can't ignore the
cultures of the time that the idea is exactly around and when you're looking at
two to four thousand year old belief systems. Sorry, everyone ever, you
have to get into the details, right, You don't just get to gloss
over it and go, oh, yeah, that looks about right. Guess
what. All of your every year life is a lie. Your belief system
is ridiculous. Right, I'll be at the student center. We're gonna play
hockey sack later. Here's one more thing here before we we wrap up.
There's an interesting article that a friend of mine posted on Facebook about Jesus being
completely fabricated by the Roman aristocracy. I saw that in order to quell the
masses. Did you read it? No? I don't read anything on Facebook
as a rule unless it's got to do with kiddies. I'm gonna I'm gonna
link it in the show notes, but you can find it at covert messiah
dot com. There's uh what, Here's the thought, the thought that the
figure of Jesus was was made up. Because they couldn't um control control the
populace by force, they decided to engage psychological warfare and win their hearts with
this one. I don't know the articles. They're gonna have a debate about
it in October, so we'll we'll need to put that on our calendars.
And I'm I'm gonna forget about it tomorrow. But we should look back up
art in air ducts hallow would be by night vission goggles, covid nsiah.
So I think that'll do it for right now. Yeah, I think so.
I think that's I think that's a good slice of Mithra mithra in a
a well avernus um scorpion U shill oh man. The only thing that hurts
more than getting stung in the giblis by a scorpion. Butts. Oh,
I'm ready, I am ready and loaded. You're loaded. Yeah, you
want to go first? One, let me go first. I don't care.
Then I'll go first, all right, tough guy, all right,
all right, obviously you haven't had your giblie stung yet. You be a
little more cautious. There is UH in the UH. The mid to late
eighties, there was a new version of the the the Holy Supper that was
launched. It was trying to trying to make it more accessible to people by
having it narrated, so people knew what it was happening the whole time.
And at that time there is few voices more beloved in the country. So
they opened up the Bob Eucharist. Jesus Christ shows up at the table,
got a picture of water, go and it's wine, sure of his blood,
deliver a sermon on the mount outside of Jerusalem. Yeah, the Bob
Eucharist. That's great. This is real simple, Okay. It's a Persian
themed hang glider shop like it already. It's called Sore Austrian nice. I
like that one you got about your head gliders somewhere. Did you know that
the the cult of Mithress not only premuated the Roman legion, but it existed
well into the twentieth century, even getting into um the writings of some of
the great fantasy authors. For example, Um, there is in uh in
Jero Tolkien Tolkien's books there is the underground dwarf and Stronghold Mythras Tirasts. Oh
it was that was was Minas Tirat Is that dwarf and underground. Oh yeah,
well that was still Mythris Tirastha A right, come at me, nerds,
they will, I know, look for them on the fifth day.
Yeah, well you can't. We've already figured out that I was wrong.
So whoops a daisy, look to the east. Yeah, all right,
one more, I've got I've got a new religion. Oh good, h
called more. Um, this isn't a pun, but the religion is called
a mormaic mystery. Oh it's it's a it's it's another little religious cult where
bull scenes are carved on gold plates. And and the thing is you don't
get to see the gold plates. They're only seen by the founder, whose
name was Joseph smithra nice. Oh I like that. I like you.
That was a curveball you arked around and then boom right in the eye socket.
That was nice. Them's his puns. Now, let's just see what
the darkest cult and all the land hath brought forth. Hugely secretive. You
can't tell anyone about them. Medccasionally their writings. I'm made known to us,
reach deep into the dark and earthen cave and bring forth this. All
right, all right, all right, all right, ladies and gentlemen,
welcome to the heavy lifting of listener mail. You guys are great, and
you guys write a lot, and now it's scaring the shout of us.
But we're gonna we are We're resolute. I mean, we will fight to
the last man to read everything we possibly can. But but thank all of
you, but we're sort of getting to a point where we might not be
able to do I don't know, we might have to surf his choice.
Yea, yeah, it's it's starting to scare us a little bit, but
we're we're at this moment we are still somehow resolute. Yeah, we're gonna
go down swinging. First up, Eric of the North. Uh, Eric
writes, just finished up episode ninety two, which he liked a lot of
guys like that one too. Which one was him? I don't know,
Oh it's uh, it's the one we everyone loves. It's the um Civil
War ghost stories Floa's baby, he says. Guys, that was incredible.
When awesome ken Burn's homage send up nailed it. Most impressive. High five,
Flora, thank you. How about some mundane superpowers? Yes, um
telecams's ability to move one mouse with your minds Um clairvoyance, the ability to
remotely view ants clairvoyants, X ray fish and the ability to see inside a
fish from the outside of it. Supress strength, strength, the power,
it's super strength, the power of misspelling. I have that one. And
he's also putting forth the name of Blur rights as the listeners. We have
to we're gonna we gotta figure that out. To figure it out. We
do, we do. We're slack, but polling is still open. Put
your submissions in. Thank you so much, Eric do Ard. I I
found out my superpower, my useless superpower. I guess it's it's a curse.
Yeah, you can sit there and see for yourself. Um No,
it's every time every time I want to catch a cab, um, they
disappear. Yea. Um. And the worst part about it is when I'm
not in a place to catch a cab, Like when I'm walking to the
corner of an intersection, I'll see a parade of cabs go by. Yes,
they blow by the intersection. You get there and then they're all gone.
And I get to the intersection and I look down the street and it's
uh, it's like zombie town. There's no worse feeling than that. Uh,
yeah, I get you. What do you got, Flora, I've
got this one. Oh uh, that was weird. Did you check the
levels on our microphones? Because I know, I know, I haven't touched
them. I gotta tell you that my say that I was going to have
a friend of mine from Japan? What well, I was gonna buy a
friend from Japan. He's a really fluent English speaker. He actually translates in
the Air Force base out there. But well, I mean he's just you
know, he's gonna his wife, Matsuko, was coming over to the US
for a little while. They're just gonna go on a little vacation. Probably
asleep right now, right, oh yeah, definitely sleep. What is this?
We weren't swike shirt? At what point? Mecca? John Zillah was
entering that discussion. But he's here now. It's just sort of like lurking
outside the window. Y'all gonna stop? Is it now? Okay? John
Zillah rights upon seems in Ireland there was a man who would go out into
the outskirts and outlying areas of town and fly his kite. The thing is
that he would always get the kite strings caught in everything, making people hate
him so much that they start calling him you hinter kite. I like that.
I like that a lot. You accept a mundane superpower, Dave,
oh, I will the ability to always have that two cents someone needs when
checking out at a store, except when it's you that needs it. I
like that. You're like the human need a penny. John Yeah, I
like that, and John Zilla says, keep up the Lord's work. Yeah,
thank you, Mecca, John Zella. How about Facebook? Ground up
Facebook? Ground up? Here? Facebook sound like good luck? You do
whatever you boogie on, you do what you want with that floor. I'm
gonna put the music that we can't normally use for stuff in here perfect,
so we'll see what does that even mean that we can't normal There's a lot
of there's a lot of music that is great, but I it just has
never fit in any of any good we've junked our music time. Yeah,
all right, we go Joan that. Joan writes, first of all,
I'm loving the podcast. I'm hoping it. So I've been listening and trying
to catch up and just listen to the Dream Show. And Joan wanted to
share that she's have a couple of really vivid dreams. Sometimes she writes them
down. A lot of them are kind of silly or non realistic, but
some of them are super real. For example, sometimes dream she woke up
crying, having after having a dream about leaving a childhood home. Or sometimes
she'll have dreams where she like the talking or laughing wakes her up from it.
I have that happen all the time. I know exactly what you're talking
about there. I actually for a little while. I don't know if we
talk about this in the podcast. I used to work in a stone shop.
I used to grind granite into like custom countertops. Is terrible, terrible,
but you end up with like grit all over your face, and so
it gets in your mouth, it's on your lips. You get used to
spitting a lot, And for years after I had that job, I would
spit in my sleep. How gross and lame is that? Don't do that
anymore. But Joan points out something interesting that I think we've talked about that.
Primarily, she'll incorporate things when she takes like brief naps. You incorporate
things that she sees on TV if she's taking a nap into her dream.
I think that's pretty common. I think a lot of people do that,
So thank you so much, Joan, Thanks for Jane, also, Sean,
the Account of the Gingers. Not quite yet the baron, but time
will tell. Nowhere near Errol, he says, Hello, gentlemen of the
blurred photo verse. Hello, does the Count of the Gingers, who must
ask a couple of questions about previous episodes that actually time together. It looks
like in a candy chat and Civil War ghost we made a second miss at
something, so here we go. What is an inexpensive treat that also hails
from Civil war camps that were in dire need of sweet tooth satisfaction? Well
it was, of course, General mackel s'mores? What what? What?
What? What? A well played? How could Betty and Tad miss that?
Welcome to ye said, welcome to season four. You get your cryptids
for nothing and your puns for free? Nice? That ain't working podcast and
the way we'd do it nice? Thank you so much, Sean, the
Count of the Gingers. I can't wait for y'all promotion and subsequent quotination.
You can quotiny perhaps, I don't know, maybe you'll getting knocked off by
a family member. Yeah, watch your back man all right. Also from
Facebook Rosalind Hi Rosalind, she hopes Flora that you're feeling better, at least
until the hangover kicks in, oh man, which it did. Kicked you
kicked in straightened the last stung. It stung like a scorpion. Um um,
and I'm feeling bad now. What is wrong with me this season?
I need to change my van better filter air filters. Rosalind. Sorry,
she couldn't drink to Saint Patrick with us in the black in the background,
but hard as it was, she drank without us. And you know what,
I can't blame you for that. You gotta do what you gotta do.
We mentioned that we were curious about the show that the Bunyip was in
because as as you were called Bunyan Bunyip, Rosalind made that really cool bunyant
puppet. That's right, We've got a I got the fan art up on
the website now, so go to the gallery and check that out, and
you'll you'll see a picture of her, yeah, and the puppet. Um
and she says, please don't sing the Bunyip moon song. As an Aza
who grew up with Dot M Kangaroo, it still sends. I had the
same exact reaction to it. There's something I don't like doing it. It's
terrifying. And when I listened to the episode where I did the bunyip roar,
it creeped me out. And you have my word, I will not
repeat that because I don't like hearing it later. Rosalind, you and I
are in the exact same boat with that. I'm immune to it. Well,
fine, when we go visit Australia, I'll stand in the long line
with everybody and we'll all throw tomatoes at you, all right, because we're
scared of bunyips. She's a storyteller and was part of a storytelling series UM
called the Victorian Guild of Storytellers, which sounds pretty awesome and uh. They
usually tell original tales in the same feel as old folklore, and one of
the tales she told was about a bunya. The photo is of herself and
the bunyant puppet UM doing during question time after the show. So that's pretty
cool. Hey, Flora, have you heard about Have you heard much about
that crazy guy who creeps up to you and whispers with a creepy, too
warm breath in your ear? About aliens. George too close. I've heard
his brother's children have a weird ability to style his hair with their mind.
They are psychokineses. Niece's nieces yea psychokiness man, and his aunt is obsessed
with biblical artifacts, so much so that they call her Holy Gail. They
do hit the spot. These puns indeed slancha for our belated Saint Patrick's celebrations.
Roslyn, thank you, thank you. And finally from Facebook town,
Robert, what do you what you used to flavor the devil baby when you
sacrifice it? Do you mean the devil Grabby? What do you call Lucifer's
barber devil Floby? Also just Floby? What do you call the son of
a stone? Elemental gravel baby? And isn't the devil baby? Isn't this
this isn't devil baby related? Sorry? Oh yeah, and it's about the
drunk podcast when I sprouted dream gibberish. He's done the same thing at least.
Oh yeah, yeah. He was in bed with his girlfriend. She
asked him something and he was just like, blah blah blah blah blah.
Different situation. What you did was perfectly normal. What I did was an
abomination, but I was trying to save an Atlantic steamship and two Monday superpowers
can sleep anytime, anywhere and dream almost immediately. Actually, that's just a
superpower. My girlfriend hasn't it. And how about he can make his car
invisible, but only when it's in a parking lot or he's walking out of
the store. Yeah, yeah, thank you very much, Robert, thank
you. One more go for it. Heard from Vardra. Oh I like
that name, yea, Vardra says, dear blurryman, we are men hell.
With Easter approaching, I'm reminded of an interesting custom which might tickle your
collective fancies. That you the easter witch of Sweden, and Varda put the
I guess the Swedish version of this in parentheses pascaring uh pop pop scaring?
Oh, I don't know. Basically, on Easter, children dress up as
witches and go around asking for treats, like on Halloween. Varga says,
I believe this custom comes from a traditional folk story that the witches would all
fly to Blocula, where the Blacula, the devil, holds court. We
defeated him in the seventies and have a sabbath on this day you're the worst,
although not really enough for a show idea. She's always found that tradition
and pretty entertaining. One so pleased with myself. When are you not?
Yeah? The drunk drunk episode, shut up, an attempted puns and a
mundane superpower bring him. There was actually an event which proceeded to business plot
during the Prohibition where community leaders such as al Capone and Bugsy Siegel attempted to
overthrow the government with an army of gangsters. It was called what the Business
Plot? I like that bitness. Yeah. Archaeologists have recently uncovered a twin
site to Kerleon. In this new site, they've found sculptures and wall paintings
which seemed to suggest belief in a never aging sorceress who ruled through her magic
songs. I'm listening. The site is being called chair Leon. I love
that everything that she sings us from like behind a pillow and through like a
horse's mouth. Yeah, exactly, and a munday and superpower. Nose invisibility
not the ability to turn your nose invisible, but the ability to be invisible
to the noses of others. I think they call that hygiene. She Varger
says. I think there are times in all of our lives where we may
have wished for this power. So true, And a PostScript day a posts
I believe the Swedes deserve their own name for foxmus slash Saturnalia since night lasts
a good portion of the day around Swedish Christmas time. So true. Oh
well you get like, I mean, is it? Is it? Huh?
Terms ubermis like? What is? Yeah? What is? What is
the Swedish moniker for super or extra? Varder suggests null or canole as it
combines null, which apparently means hu and you'll, which means Christmas perfect soul
nul nul. We can put that on cards in the US. No,
no, no, we're talking about no no no no no no no no
no no let me no no no, get try and get a SCC.
You'll never catch me. Go no, you'll say yeah, and then we
get to go. You know what we'll do is well, then we'll become
expatriates living in Sweden. That's that is. I wouldn't ever read about that.
Sure, I'll learn the language. Let's do it. Oh alrighty,
so tons more listener mail to get through next episode. That's that's what we
got for this one man, you know what to do? Yep, Facebook,
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you know, if you're not offending someone, you're not trying hard enough.
Actually didn't offend anybody. We just didn't like him. Yeah, somebody's opinion
was. But you know what, if you're listening to this and you made
it this far, if you wanted to give us another try, Yeah,
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Ye what else we got nothing? Nope? Then for this episode of Blurry
Photos, I have been Dave the Stinging Bull, Satchel Stecco Satchel, and
I have been David Flouridgy and app Nice plus six to Dexterity. I'm making
a note, Sibley