WEBVTT

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So going back between there's difference between
Web two and Web three from the user

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perspective. If the economy is built
in a way that makes sense, that's

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the I mean, you don't need
another reason to play, then there's a

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chance that you could get rewarded,
you know, not only with a great

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game and with a way to spend
your time, but actually with some financial

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benefits. Whether you're lucky or because
you play well or because you played smart,

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you know, you found something that
nobody else want. This content is

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will be in a description. Welcome
to the Thinking Crypto podcast. You're home

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for cryptocurrency news and interviews with me. Today's David Johanson, who's the CEO

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of Mediking Studios and the creator of
block Lords. David, Welcome, He

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great, happy to be here and
excited to talk about the gaming and what

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three in general. David, I'm
very interested in Web three gaming and how

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blockchain is integrated. This is something
I've been trying to read up more on,

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so I'm very excited to speak with
you to learn about block lords,

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how you guys are integrating Web three
tech and token into a blockchain into the

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gaming environment. Let's start though with
your background, where you're from and what's

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your professional background. Yeah, so
I'm from Sweden and France. Grew up

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all over Europe, went to university
in the US, studied film, worked

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in Hollywood a few years, and
ended up in China kind of randomly,

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but it was a turn of faiths
that ended up working in my favor and

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in China got into gaming. So
for the last ten years, I've been

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making games, which is really the
best job and the most challenging job at

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the same time. It's quite exciting. But yeah, essentially, in the

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beginning of my career, I was
helping a lot of Facebook and mobile games

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go from the Asian markets to the
Western markets and learned a lot about how

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to build free to play economies that
way. This is right as free to

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play was really starting to take off
also in the West, and as I

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was making games like that, I
definitely gravitated towards strategy games. And once

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I discovered crypto in twenty seventeen,
with my gaming background, it was kind

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of a no brainer, and I've
been full time Web three gaming since then.

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Oh that's awesome. Now you mentioned
you got into crypto in twenty seventeen.

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What was your first encounter with bitcoin. I'm always fascinated by folks stories,

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you know, maybe they heard it
from a friend on a forum,

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And what was your aha moment?
Yeah, yeah, so I definitely had

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it in an aha moment, and
it's just pretty long process. But I

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was introduced to it fully in twenty
seventeen summer there and I just left my

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job. I just was over that
job, and I wanted to start my

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own studio, but just getting you
know, as especially then like twenty fourteen,

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twenty four fifteen, it was a
little easier, but twenty seventeen,

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indie game financing was kind of kind
of dead. And my friend was like,

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oh, well you should, you
should look into me in ico.

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It's like, what's an ico?
It's like, oh, it's crypto blockchain.

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Bitcoin sounded buzzworthy, you know.
I was like, what is that?

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And I had heard bitcoin before,
but always i think in the concept

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of context of a joke, right, never actually looked into it. So

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based on what he said of like, oh, and ico is a he

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was like, oh, it's like
Kickstarter. So I checked it out.

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And even by then Kickstarter was kind
of dead, right, so not dead,

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but it was definitely not what it
had been. And I looked into

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it, and I think I took
a link LinkedIn course on blockchains how they

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worked, just studied a lot about
bitcoin. I think it took like three

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four days of like studying and really
learning, and yeah, at some point

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it just clicked, like and I
think it was some it was some LinkedIn

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course and he had like all these
blocks and he was like physically putting the

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blocks on top of each other and
just showing how immutable it all was,

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right, And I think that is
when it clicked of like okay, this

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is this is real money. Like
this works because you you send it and

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it's out of your wallet, it's
in someone else's wallet, all those all

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those nodes, all those minors are
verifying it. Then it's this self sustaining

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network that really supports itself and verifies
itself and you can't cheat. Right,

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That was the main thing, Like
once you send the money, its south,

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once you receive the money, it's
in. And I think that that

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really started it. So that day
I bought my first bitcoin. I think

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the price was one thousand dollars then
so and then saw it go up to

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you know, two or three thousand
dollars in the next few weeks. So

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it was a very good good time
to get in. But yeah, after

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that there was no going back.
Got into get into icos, get into

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ethereum, get into smart contracts.
Didn't start a company that summer in crypto

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because I was just too new to
it and I wanted to learn more first,

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but started in twenty eighteen, so
it was pretty quick after that,

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Oh, that's awesome, and now
you have this convergence of your gaming background

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and cryptoweb three tech slash blockchain.
Right, tell us about block Lords and

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what makes it unique as far as
a game. Yeah, so original idea

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back in twenty seventeen is still the
same war as it is today, although

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it's definitely evolved a lot. And
the idea was you start with a hero.

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That hero is non chain asset.
This was before NFTs were invented,

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so of course since then it's become
NFTs. So now now they're NFTs.

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You fight for resources, you fight
for land, you grow out your farm,

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you farm for resources, you deck
out your hero, you collect several

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heroes, and you build out your
little army, and then if you become

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powerful enough to actually become a lord
or lady, you will earn taxes from

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players who are farming or fighting or
generating wealth in your region. Right.

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So the idea was really to take
a feudal economy, which and you know,

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feudal economies were very decentralized compared to
the economies we have today. Right,

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So that was also kind of following
the ethos of blockchain, was having

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these decentralized feudal economies that are governed
different ways, butally on Chaine, right,

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And so at the core that was
the idea. And then in terms

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of gameplay mechanics, a lot of
inspirations from games like Total War, h

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of Empires, Crusader Kings, really
taking my favorite medieval strategy games and then

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putting them on an MMO economy,
which hasn't really been done before. Like

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games like Game of War did that
in a mobile setting, but not like

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as an MMO true MMO setting.
So that's that's kind of what we're trying

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to do, is the first big
MMO strategy game that's awesome and you mentioned

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as of Empires, Man, I
spent so many hours playing that game.

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Yeah, So now I want to
make sure that I break this down for

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the people who are listening who are
new to the concept of blockchain gaming,

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web three gaming and so forth,
and what are the incentives, what are

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the benefits? And you have the
great gameplay and as you outline, but

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where does the token and the web
three tech come into play and how is

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that part of the gaming economy.
Yeah, so, really with blog floors,

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especially because we've been building it over
so many years, different iterations of

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it over a long time. The
main thing has always been what do we

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want out of token? As a
game developer, what do you users?

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One out of token? And what
do you know more passive holders one out

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of the token? And those are
all different things, right, And so

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essentially, as a user, you
want to use the token as a currency,

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right, You want to use it
to buy things you need. What

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are those things? Well, this
could be in game resources. Those can

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be in game heroes, those can
be power structures, It can be titles,

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it can be cosmetics, it can
be battle passes, it can be

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anything you want. And so essentially
a core part for us is to drive

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demand for goods inside of the game
that the token is then going to be

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able to Users are going to be
able to use the token to actually get

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those goods, right, And that's
why it's very important that we do a

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lot of testing now because the token
hasn't launched obviously, but what we're doing

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now is with regular FIA payments,
is we're doing a lot of testing.

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For example, our battle passes which
are launched in season one, which was

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a couple of months ago at a
ten dollars price point, but with really

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a lot of value in it,
and over I mean I think it's over

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eighty percent of our daily active users
actually bought the battle pass, right,

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and so I would as a game
developer, that means that's a success,

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right, because you launch a product
and most of your users actually want to

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buy that product, and then the
core basic use of the token will be

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to buy that actually at a discounted
rate compared to FIAT. Right, that's

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the first That's the first thing,
is like, whatever you want to buy

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with FIA, you'll actually be able
to buy it with the token at a

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discount rate. That's the first use. Then within the game itself, the

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game, that's right, the token
will have utility that nobody else can get.

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Right, So you'll have access to
special heroes, you'll have access to

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special content, and you'll have access
to a special resource called influence, and

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influence is essentially what you use to
get more and more and more powerful within

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the game itself. So that's a
very big part of it. Then if

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we go more into the out of
the game sphere and more into the web

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three governance sphere, that's where it
gets very interesting too. Right, So

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what we've introduced in our in are
on the website. Now is the governance

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mechanic, which we call the provenance
and basically every every couple of weeks,

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users will be able to vote for
narrative elements of the game. So we

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had to vote the first vote ever
that closed last week, which is what

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is the name of the block Loorse
Continent, and they voted for Etheria,

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right. So there's a few options
etherea prospera and a couple more and they

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chose Etheria right. And that actually
we're going to be weaving that into the

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game itself. Uh. And that
goes to narrative, but that's also going

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to impact other game design and other
choices in the future as well. Uh.

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And then of course we do have
plans for our own Layer two solution

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with b lockboards and the Lord's Token
will be used to secure and and basically

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help verify those transactions as well.
Now, I got a lot of questions

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here, and I also want to
talk about how this is the changing landscape

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in the gaming industry and uh and
you know, engaging users and giving them

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more uh say in the game,
more participation and opate. But before we

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get there, tell us about the
l r D token. Uh, the

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tokenomics around it and which blockchain is
it on? Is it etherorem So we

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haven't fully announced that yet, but
yeah, so far from all the options

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we've looked at, uh, Ethereum
does offer the most liquidity and it's the

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it's essentially the best game to so
sorry, it's the best chain to maintain

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value in the token. That's it. We are a fully cross chain project.

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We currently support iMX, and we
support Plygon, and we do have

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plans to support more chains in the
future. So we strongly see that users'

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assets should be fully cross chain and
that they should be able to bridge their

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assets between different chains. But Etheroreum
right now is looking like the strongest contender

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for the token itself. Yeah,
I'm happy to hear that you're gonna have

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cross chain functionality because, like you
said, you know that's important. People

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are, you know, sometimes part
of communities behind different tokens. So if

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they're into Polygon and other chains,
right to have interoperability I think is certainly

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needed and certainly part of the future
so you can bridge the gap between different

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communities. And that's our philosophy.
Our philosophy is if you like a certain

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asset, or you trust a certain
chain, you should be able to bridge

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your hero there essentially, Yeah,
for sure. Now let's talk about,

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you know, the changing gaming landscape
and what you're trying to do here with

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what cannsidered Web three gaming. How
is the or what's the status of the

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gaming industry and do you feel there's
been a ramp down and interest in games?

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But this could be this model could
really reinvigorate people to come back into

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gaming because there's a strong incentive and
rewards because of these tokens. Yeah,

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yeah, I mean definitely. If
you look at Web two gaming, there's

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a lot of issues right now,
especially in the last couple of years with

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the ad rules changing with Apple and
such that essentially caused well it caused most

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free to play business models to completely
fall apart. And it's pretty interesting in

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what we're seeing now is we're seeing
way more funding going into Web three games

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than we are seeing two words Web
two games. So actually there's a lot

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of there's a big brain drain happening
as well between Web two and Web three,

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and so if you look at the
advantages, well, the advantages for

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the users there are many. Essentially, there is the ability to own your

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assets, which gets overlooked at time
or gets some shade at times, I

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think because it hasn't mattered so much
to most users, But there will be

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a point where it does matter,
and it has mattered to the users who

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have been able, you know,
to profit or to sell, or to

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be able to actually eke out a
living from their time spent playing. I'm

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not saying that's why people should play
games, but for those people who have

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been able to pull it off,
it has actually meant quite a lot,

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and there is a lot of interest
from users to be able to do that

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because I mean, at the end
of the day, like jobs are getting

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harder and harder to get, AI
is displacing a lot of people. It's

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essentially you know, I like this
idea of universal gaming income, right,

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and I think that's where the world
is moving. If you are probably going

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to have more chances to earn a
living in digital ecosystems in the future than

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you are in the real world,
right, which is probably a bit sad

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for some people, but I strongly
that's where we're heading, if we're not

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already there. But that doesn't mean
it should all be you know, subsidized

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by the game developers, right,
and that's why for us, and going

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back to the token utility for our
token specifically the way we built it is

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most importantly. I mentioned that you
have to create demand, right, So

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whatever you give out, you got
to give people a reason to spend as

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well. That that's a very important
part of it. So going back between

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the difference between Web two and Web
three from the user perspective, if the

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economy is built in a way that
makes sense, that's the I mean,

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you don't need another reason to play, then there's a chance that you could

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get rewarded, you know, not
only with a great game and with a

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way to spend your time, but
actually with some financial benefits whether you're lucky

218
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or because you play well or because
you played smart. You know, you

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you found something that nobody else want. Now, going away from the user

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and into the developer, there's also
some very clear benefits as a developer to

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go to Web three because what we've
seen. You know, we went with

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an early access version in September and
with a closed beta in June last year,

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and the amount of users we got, you know, we got about

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five thousand users for a closed beta, and now we're up to almost ninety

225
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thousand users for early access retention rate
over fifty percent day one. Those numbers

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don't exist in Web two game for
a game of our stage, you know,

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which is still early access, still
a bit raw. There's a lot

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to fix. The fact that we're
able to get almost one hundred thousand users,

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the fact that a lot of them
are actually playing. I mean,

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we're up to almost twenty thousand users
daily. Now that's a ton of data,

231
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that's a ton of feedback, that's
a ton of ways, and that's

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a ton of comments. And then
we can also we get tickets, you

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know, and we see what the
bugs are and we're able to focus in

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on the most important bugs. First. The fact that we're able to get

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so much support, so much playtime, so much data that we can use

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us to improve the game and create
better a better game for the future.

237
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It's much much harder to get Web
two, and that's kind of a sad

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that's kind of a sad fact.
Basically, what people see is only the

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viral hits, but they don't see
all of the millions of games or thousands

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of games that don't make yet.
And what's really interesting about Web three is

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because that incentive is built, then
you get that initial player boost that are

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going to help you as developer create
a better game. So I think it's

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kind of a win win scenario.
Yeah, I was about to say that

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exact thing. It's a win win
scenario because look, I love, for

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example, h Vampires, right,
but if I could have gotten tokens for

246
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just doing something I love and I'm
passionate about and I love the game,

247
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that would have been great. It's
win when And you know, you brought

248
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up an interesting concept of universal gaming
income. And these are some of the

249
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things I've been talking about in addition
to UBI and the metaverse and people having

250
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to earn in the metaverse. So
do you see gaming I know we're still

251
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nearly stages going more into the metaverse
as we have these headsets get more sophisticated,

252
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well, the headset. I'm not
so bullish on the headset itself.

253
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I think we're gonna eventually. You
know how Asia skipped skipped the credit card

254
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in a way, they just went
straight from cash to to mobile phones.

255
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I think that the same is going
to happen with VR and AR. There's

256
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going to be something that comes along
in five ten years that's just gonna make

257
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the hardware obsolete in a way,
you know, or that's just get rid

258
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of that problem I have. I've
developed stuff for VR, but I'm not

259
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just a huge fan of it because
I think the helmet gets too cumbersome.

260
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But yes, in terms of do
I think, excuse me, do I

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think that most people are going to
make a living out of digital ecosystems in

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the future. I definitely think it's
already happening, you know, like gen

263
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Zer or Gen Alpha. Now right, I'm a millennial myself, but Gen

264
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Alpha, Uh, you ask them
what they want to be. You know,

265
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in our generation, it was it
was you know, fireman or president

266
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or or you know, a filmmaker
that that was. That was our vibe.

267
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But now it's all content creator,
it's esports, start streamer, YouTuber,

268
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uh, you know, game to
have probably a few, but it's

269
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it's all shifted and it's I think
it's for the better. You know,

270
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a lot of people are scared about
it. A lot of people don't like

271
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it, but I think it's it's
really quite exciting and I'm really excited about

272
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what you know, Jealfa is going
to come with for the products they developed

273
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because they're probably already starting now,
and with AI it's so easy, you

274
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know, to get started developing stuff. But essentially they're plugged in, and

275
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the more plugged in you are,
the easier it is to create wealth out

276
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of these ecosystems. Now, walk
me through a bit of the process,

277
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because I want to make sure folks
who are watching and listening understand the future

278
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capabilities of web three gaming. So
let's say I'm in the game, I'm

279
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playing, doing my thing. I'm
earning tokens right now as a user.

280
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I can take those tokens and reinvest
it in the game, buy things and

281
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so forth. But I can also
go just go sell those tokens in the

282
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open market and make an income.
Is there in the planning in the future

283
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the ability to stake or lend,
you know, with DeFi capabilities, So

284
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maybe I just hold those tokens or
some of it, and I'm earning some

285
00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:33.759
sort of passive income on it.
Yeah, So obviously we're we're very careful

286
00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.480
with how we were this because obviously
we won't We don't want to guarantee profits

287
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.480
or earnings or anything like that,
because at the end of the day,

288
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you are playing a game and that's
as game designers, it's really our job

289
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.480
to create the best game possible and
to create the healthiest game economy possible,

290
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:55.279
but then also provide off ramps and
opportunities for users to monetize their attention,

291
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monetize their asset if they can.
So. I think for us, the

292
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game itself about play the game as
much as possible, get as many resources

293
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as possible, use those resources in
a smart way, whether it is to

294
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get heroes, or whether it's to
steal resources from others, or whether it's

295
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:17.359
to ally yourself with other players and
get as powerful as you want inside of

296
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.680
the game. That's really the core
for the game itself. Then, through

297
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:26.680
air drops, through leaderboard, through
certain mechanics, you can also win some

298
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:33.079
tokens essentially get some tokens that way, but it's never guaranteed, and that's

299
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:34.559
a very big part of it is
you do have to put in a lot

300
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:37.880
of time, or a lot of
skill, or a lot of assets into

301
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.839
the game to actually be able to
get access to those. But then yes,

302
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.440
what we've developed is a system where
you actually lock your tokens for an

303
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:51.960
extented period of time to get in
game influence and in game power and essentially

304
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.640
that way you can become more powerful. But again, if you become too

305
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.799
powerful, someone else is going to
challenge you and try to get what's yours.

306
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.680
So while we're really trying to create
an ecosystem where there are winners and

307
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there are losers, and that's a
very important part of having a healthy economy,

308
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I win because a problem with a
lot of Web three games that came

309
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out in twenty twenty one, not
only the way they actually work, but

310
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also in the way they we're marketed
is everybody wins. Like you play to

311
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.440
earn, you get profit no matter
what. And that's why I'm very careful

312
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:26.079
about that language because at the end
of the day, it doesn't work like

313
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:27.799
that. Like it does either becomes
a ponzi or you need to find a

314
00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:33.119
way so that actually there are revenue
streams that go. And so the way

315
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.000
we're trying to do it is you
have a lot of free players who come

316
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.920
in, they play the game for
free. That's a very important part of

317
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.559
it. You don't have to pay
to play, you can play for free.

318
00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:45.799
You can get better and better.
If you're really skilled, you will

319
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:52.079
find ways to earn some tokens inside
of the game, or if you have

320
00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.880
some assets to deploy, you can
actually deploy the game and probably have a

321
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.160
better chance of winning them inside of
the game. But then most importantly,

322
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.799
those with a lot can actually subsidize
those with not as much to go and

323
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:10.240
perform actions that are going to benefit
those who sponsor them, right. And

324
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then of course they all go to
war against each other, and then there

325
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are going to be some losers and
some winners, right. And so to

326
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.960
answer your question, it's never going
to be a straight line. And any

327
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.759
game that promises, oh it's a
straight line, do this, do this,

328
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.599
do this, and then you will
earn I would be very cautious with

329
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:32.359
actually, because it never works out
that way. No, I love that

330
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.119
it mimics the real world economy.
Like you said, there's winners and losers,

331
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:41.000
and you can pay people to do
things right. So it's interesting.

332
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.599
There's so many layers to there to
that, like an entrepreneurial aspect to it,

333
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.480
right, and like running a business
or economy and you're paying people.

334
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:55.240
So that's fascinating. And I'm just
exciting excited for the future of how these

335
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.759
things are going to mature and play
out. And I was going to impact

336
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.440
itomy and helping people to earn and
it's just yeah, I'm just very fascinated

337
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.799
by as as someone who used to
play games. Now, what's on your

338
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:14.559
roadmap? You know, what can
we expect in this year? Yeah,

339
00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:18.839
So we just launched our season one, which was quite a success. As

340
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.480
I mentioned, now we're working on
our season two, which is launching quite

341
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.839
shortly, within a couple of weeks. After season two, we're going to

342
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.240
launch our dynasty system. Our Dynasty
system, you'll be able to take your

343
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.400
heroes, You'll be able to go
on missions, you'll be able to duel

344
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against other heroes. Heroes will start
dying, which is NFT permit death essentially.

345
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.599
So a lot of NFT games have
had the problems where there's like mass

346
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.279
inflation of NFTs and they go on
forever. We have had quite a lot

347
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.160
of NFTs being minted by our users. I'm a big believer in dynamic NFTs

348
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.920
that are created by users. But
now that we're adding death, we're actually

349
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.640
going to start seeing the other end
as well, and users are essentially going

350
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.319
to be incentivized to kill off their
heroes. So it's going to be pretty

351
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.039
interesting to see how many of them
actually do ad versus how many don't.

352
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.200
And also as we're adding death,
what we'll start adding is the ability for

353
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.799
heroes to get married and have babies. So all of that is coming in

354
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.079
Q two, and after that we're
going towards Stronghold battles, which are going

355
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.599
to be large scale battles which are
also coming this year. So overall,

356
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.440
pretty packed roadmap. And of course
our token launch, which is going to

357
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.240
happen this year. I can't say
exactly when, but it's definitely in the

358
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.119
pipeline and lots of work being done
there. And most importantly, users who

359
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.319
are playing now, who are active, who are really following and up to

360
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.519
speed to what's going on in the
community, have chance to get tokens before

361
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:42.240
it even launches via the in game
game drops. That's great, and to

362
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:47.319
confirm is maybe a silly question.
Your available worldwide for the most part,

363
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.079
anyone who has internet connection can participate, right correct. All you need to

364
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.720
do is go on the Epic Game
Store and the game is free, so

365
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.039
anybody can download the game and play
for free and get started. You just

366
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:02.200
need a pretty good PC to play. Cool. Let's talk about the crypto

367
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.480
market at large. You know,
given your background getting in twenty seventeen,

368
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:11.880
the big one ETFs have been incredible. The inflows and have been record breaking,

369
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.640
and the price of bigcoin has been
rallying. What are your thoughts on

370
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.400
the big one ETF performance. Yeah, I mean, it's it's amazing.

371
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.640
It's great to see. I think
everyone in the space is kind of shocked

372
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.799
how fast everything has happened. You
know, it's good to see. Also,

373
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.839
obviously, always a warning to newcomer
to approach with caution because obviously this

374
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.920
is great and it feels great and
everyone's really excited, but it can also

375
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.839
turn quickly, So just a word
of caution to everyone who's entering the space.

376
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.599
You know, take your time,
learn, don't have too much fomo.

377
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.559
There's always going to be more opportunities. I think that that's important.

378
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:53.920
But overall, you know, I'm
I'm very excited. We've you know,

379
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.079
our team has been in this since
twenty eighteen, you know, building full

380
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:03.559
time, and that you know how
hard the bear markets are. These kind

381
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.200
of days when everything is great,
that makes up for it. Overall,

382
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.759
you know, we have a lot
of things to look forward to. Ef

383
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.960
ETFs are very likely coming. I
don't know if it's this year or next

384
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.519
year. I don't know what your
thoughts are on that, but that should

385
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:21.200
be big. And I mean,
you know, I'm more on the gaming

386
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:26.160
side myself, so I'm definitely not
a financial analyst or a bank titan.

387
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.759
But I would say this year or
next year, we're going to start seeing

388
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.599
games that head into the million monthly
active users and that that's that's going to

389
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.759
be the game changer because right now
the institutions are going into it and that

390
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.720
that's obviously huge, and that's going
to have a lot of impact, especially

391
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.119
on the big assets like bitcoin and
eth and others. But you know,

392
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:55.440
once we start seeing games that are
able to create retail adoption out of nowhere

393
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.200
where it didn't exist before, I
think that's when things are going to get

394
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.680
really really interesting. Hard question for
you, because you are mentioning, you

395
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:08.200
know, the rise of these gaming
gaming communities and active users and so forth.

396
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:12.240
When do you think the traditional game
makers, if you can call them

397
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:18.319
that, the ones that may call
a duty and other games right will start

398
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:19.680
to pay attention to web three and
be like, oh man, we better

399
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.680
get on board here because we're going
to miss the train. This This is

400
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:27.359
obviously the future, When do you
think they're going to have that aha moment?

401
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.480
Yeah, well, I think I
think they've all already had it.

402
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.880
I mean they're all paying attention to
it. You know, they're they're seeing

403
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.160
I mean we have in block flores
three investors that are like Web two giants,

404
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.680
you know, like squar En,
x FN plus craft On. They're

405
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.599
all in the project and they're all
looking at it. I would say right

406
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:55.519
now, every every every major Web
two publisher developer has at least considered or

407
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.599
has a division that's looking into it. Now. Does that mean anythings that

408
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:02.920
happens, Probably not. You know, most of these companies are public companies.

409
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:07.960
Public companies have to be very very
careful with anything they do, anything

410
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.680
that could be misconstrued or anything that
could be seen as affecting the stock price

411
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.119
negatively. Right, So there's just
gonna be a lot more caution also in

412
00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.559
general, you know, they just
don't understand it as well. And if

413
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.519
they don't understand it, they're not
going to handle it as well. And

414
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.640
I would say we're going to see
more and more experiments. I think ubi

415
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:33.240
Soft already announced right that they're doing
something with iMX. We saw that was

416
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.839
a few months ago, so you've
seen U be soft. I mean,

417
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.799
Square Innix is definitely deep in it. I know a few projects that I

418
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:41.680
probably can't talk about that are in
it as well. So you're going to

419
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:48.640
start seeing it as for a full
triple A game or like the million users

420
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:53.079
game I mentioned, You're probably that's
that's going to come natively, I think,

421
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:59.000
because and once that happens, then
the big ones will start doing that.

422
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:00.680
Does that make sense? The first
first, they don't have to happen

423
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.279
kind of from one of you know
what, you know, someone like our

424
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:11.039
team, someone who's like funded by
VCS who kind of makes it happen over

425
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:12.880
the years, you know, and
definitely not easy. But then once there's

426
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:18.599
that proven success that has mainstream appeal, that's when you start seeing everyone else

427
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.720
piling in. And of course,
I mean if Steam were to accept the

428
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.759
n FTS today, that would that
would change a lot as well, for

429
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:30.240
sure. Yeah, that's a great
point. And it just takes one game

430
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.920
to have a huge success and then
the other is gonna be start paying attention.

431
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.960
Game theory will play out, right. Yeah, let's talk a bit

432
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:42.440
about n f T S because we
saw obviously the game integrates n f t

433
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:47.759
s. But let's talk about NFTs
at large. Where we saw it was

434
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.240
more of collectibles in the past cycle, but we're starting to see dynamic dynamic

435
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.960
NFTs, as you mentioned before,
the NFTs that unlock utility and benefits and

436
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:02.440
perks. What is your outlook for
the NFT market. Do you see the

437
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.240
next phase and maybe that's a maturation
going beyond collectibles but more utility. Yeah,

438
00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.160
yeah, I mean you know that
that's been my thoughts since the beginning.

439
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.680
You know, we were very early
with DeFi NFTs when I started Cescape,

440
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.319
which was a DeFi n FT infrastructure. I would say the market is

441
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:25.039
moving there. The only problem with
dynamic NFTs is because they don't have set

442
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.680
most of them don't have set collection
numbers right, it becomes much harder for

443
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.440
speculators to value it right. Like
the reason pfps were doing so well twenty

444
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.839
twenty one. I mean, A, there was a lot of liquidity in

445
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:41.119
the market. I wanted to go
to NFTs, but B the pfps were

446
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.200
just so easy to value because you
have ten thousand of them. They're all

447
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:48.240
more or less the same except for
some small random stats that don't really matter

448
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:52.759
because there's no product associated with it, and then you know, you put

449
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.799
celebrities on that pushing it and then
they would do well. Right, that

450
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:01.079
that was kind of the formula and
it worked very similar to the ARC twenties

451
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:07.480
of twenty seventeen. So I think
you know what is missing from from dynamic

452
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.920
NFTs or more, you know,
more inflationary collections, You could say,

453
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:15.359
you know something like actually something like
what we have. I mean most gaming

454
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:17.519
NFTs have to be like that because
if you say there's only x amount,

455
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:21.240
then you limit your user based only
X amount, right, and that's not

456
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:25.000
going to work. So it's gonna
come down to what makes what's gonna make

457
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.839
what three gaming work? Right?
You need like that drive driven gamers demand,

458
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:37.000
right, And I mean just looking
at us our game, we have

459
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.000
the farmers, right, and the
farmers are three dollars floor price I think

460
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:45.000
two to three dollars usually, But
then we have the unique heroes and they

461
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.000
have I think floor price of sixteen
seventeen thousand right now, so dollars.

462
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:52.119
So that's that's how it's done,
right. It's like you have different types

463
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.400
of NFTs that have different types of
values to the gamers. And then really

464
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.839
it is up to the market and
the gamers themselves to determine that value.

465
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.799
Yeah, for sure, I'm excited
to see this next phase for NFTs,

466
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:09.799
and I've been talking a lot about
it on the podcast and obviously trying to

467
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:15.640
see what is like another major use
case where NFTs can be inserted, whether

468
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.400
it be in the car industry or
healthcare, whatever it may be. I

469
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.000
think it's coming, but you know, we have to. Yeah, I

470
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.240
mean, it's literally it's anything like
to me, the comparison I made,

471
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.880
you know, is back in twenty
twenty one, people saw NFTs as picassos,

472
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:37.039
right, and every picasta was unique
and very expensive and all of that.

473
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:38.880
But I see it more like a
plastic box, like you can put

474
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:44.279
anything inside of your NFT. It
can be something physical. I think d

475
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:50.200
deepend has some limitations that that it
could definitely take off, but I don't

476
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.200
see it quite taking off as the
digital realm. But yeah, you could.

477
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:57.519
It could literally be anything. That's
the thing. So any product that

478
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.000
could be interesting, you're going to
be able to put it into an NFT

479
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:06.160
for sure. Now you know,
this technology is growing at a rapid pace,

480
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.840
and we're seeing countries around the globe
are putting together crypto regulations. The

481
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:15.360
EU put the MICA regulations, the
UK did, there's the US has some

482
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:20.719
bills in the house. Obviously you're
not in the US, but you know,

483
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.679
what are your thoughts on global crypto
regulations that are coming. Obviously you

484
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:30.440
want balance regulations. It protects innovators
but also protects consumers. What are your

485
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.880
thoughts? Yeah, I mean regulations
needed. It's I mean, it's too

486
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.719
slow happening. We everything, everyone
in the space wishes there were clearer regulations

487
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.559
around I mean, you know,
looking at regular gaming, fee to play

488
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.000
still doesn't have really solid regulation around
it. Social media doesn't have solid regulation

489
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.599
around it. People are taking AI
seriously, which is nice, so there's

490
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.920
bound to be some regulation around it. I mean for us as a projects,

491
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.159
not much we can do except follow
their rules, you know, so

492
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.440
as as as long as you give
us clear rules, will follow them.

493
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.360
But yeah, I would urge every
country to take to get take gaming and

494
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:15.559
web three very seriously and try to
put in business friendly and consumer friendly regulations

495
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:20.679
in place as fast as possible,
because the weight is what makes innovation harder

496
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.800
and harder. Yeah. Absolutely,
Now you just mentioned AI. I'm curious

497
00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:29.079
if you have any thoughts on the
impact of AI with gaming. I don't

498
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.480
know what that looks like or what
it could look like, but any thoughts

499
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:36.400
there. Yeah, I mean it's
huge, it's huge. Concept. Art

500
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:42.840
is essentially now entirely done with mid
Journey and the similar tools. Content creation

501
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:47.679
you know, in scripts for for
both for our visuals and for in game

502
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.400
content, all done with AI now. But not when I say all done

503
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.559
with AI generated by a I but
then you know, verified and improved by

504
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:00.079
by humans, which probably won't be
needed in a few years. It's funny.

505
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.880
I was telling you my art director
five years ago even more, Yeah,

506
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:06.960
twenty seventeen, I told him this, Yeah, one day I'll be

507
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.320
able to replace you by AI,
you know, kind of jokingly, and

508
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.760
he didn't believe. You're, like, that's never going to happen. And

509
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.000
now, I mean, we're at
a point where I'm not gonna We're not

510
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:17.880
going to replace him. But it's
it's pretty crazy how fast it's gone,

511
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:22.119
and it's pretty i mean, obviously
it's scary for everyone how it's going to

512
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.559
be in five years, but you
know, as a business owner, as

513
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:30.239
a founder, it is pretty incredible
that we're able to be more efficient and

514
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.639
be able to do a lot more. And uh, yeah, I kind

515
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.519
of wish I had that always,
you know, but probably as good I

516
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:39.000
didn't, so I learned how to
how to vet it a bit better.

517
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.679
But yeah, for example, in
game design, my co founder Nikki,

518
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:46.960
he's built a full on block coorse
game design guru that's helping us with all

519
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:51.599
of our tables, all of our
configurations, a lot of our content,

520
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:57.119
and we we are looking for ways
to add AI directly into the game to

521
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:01.079
generate content that is a bit challenging
and also slow, so we're kind of

522
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:06.920
trying to find the best way there. But yeah, I think overall it's

523
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:12.639
a huge benefit to us as a
business and to the consumers. And yeah,

524
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.199
pretty excited to see what comes out
next, and also pretty excited to

525
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:17.360
see what products we can create because
I think everyone's going to have to do

526
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.599
it to stay competitive. Yeah,
it's going to be fascinating. You know.

527
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.920
As you're saying that, I'm thinking
of, you know, playing a

528
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:30.400
game and I have an AI assistant
in the game, maybe suggesting strategies and

529
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:34.880
things like that. But it's you
know, it's it's more customizable based on

530
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:38.119
what's happening because the AI is processing
the information faster than I can. I

531
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:42.239
don't know, but you know,
it seems like something might be down in

532
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:45.679
the road. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Awesome. I got

533
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.760
some wrap up questions here for you, Firsus. If you could create your

534
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:53.400
own metaverse, what would the theme
be? I mean, this is the

535
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:58.920
theme. I like, you know, medieval medieval warfare that that would definitely

536
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.480
be the theme. So just movie
Roman Empire, either Roman Empire, evil

537
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:07.360
stuff. I figured, I figured, you know, since this is the

538
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.719
theme of the game. Rapid fire
questions. Favorite food, fairy food,

539
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:20.760
I'd say sushi. Favorite musician or
band. Let's say Mozart, let's go

540
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:27.480
classic Nice, favorite movie, favorite
movie, Clockwork, Orange, that's a

541
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:31.920
good movie too. Favorite book,
favorite book. I'm gonna say Sidartha.

542
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.800
And when you're not doing anything at
BlockWorks, what are you doing for fun?

543
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:42.079
As a hobby? I like playing
the yuke, I like music,

544
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.159
trading crypto Obviously it's a it's a
fun one. But yeah, overall,

545
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:52.239
I'd say walk my dog and be
with my wife. Awesome, David.

546
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.000
I am excited for the future updates
around block Lords, and I'm gonna have

547
00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:00.840
to start playing this game, and
I love the one step of Web three

548
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.039
merging with gaming here. I would
love to have you back on in the

549
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.000
future, you know, as things
protest. Thank you so much for joining

550
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:08.000
me. Thank you so much.
Happy to beer