WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:16.600 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, May twenty 2 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.640 second, twenty twenty three, and I'm the host of the show, Kara 3 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:23.519 Santa Maria. And before we dive into this week's episode, as always, 4 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:27.600 I want to thank those of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember, 5 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:31.640 Talk Nerdy is and will always be one hundred percent free to download, and 6 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:36.119 that's because I rely on the support of listeners just like you. If you're 7 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:41.399 interested in pledging your support on an episodic basis and also getting an ad free 8 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:45.719 episode of the show, all you've got to do is visit patreon dot com 9 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:50.759 slash talk Nerdy to learn more. This week's top patrons include Daniel Lang, 10 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:56.039 David J. E. Smith, Mary Niva, Brian Holden, David Compton, 11 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:02.240 Gabrielle f Haramio, Joe Wilkinson, Pasqual Legilati, Ulrika Hagman, and 12 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:06.200 so so many more. Thank you all so much from the bottom of my 13 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:08.599 heart. All right, well, it's been a busy one here. I'm 14 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.359 really cracking the whip trying to get my dissertation finished within the next month or 15 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:17.799 so. So if you notice I'm not quite as active on social media, 16 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.879 not quite as active in responding, and if the podcast is sometimes a day 17 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.359 or two late, that would be why. But I am sticking with it 18 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:29.840 and I'm really appreciative of all of your support during this super hard process. 19 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:33.120 I've got a really good one for you today. It's a little bit of 20 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:37.439 a different flavor, but still I think personally, like right up my alley. 21 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.799 I had the opportunity to speak with Adrian Hone. He's the CEO and 22 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:48.040 founder of games developer six to Start, the co creator of Zombies Run, 23 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:52.760 and also a columnist for Edge magazine. He studied neuroscience at the University of 24 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:57.159 Cambridge, the University of Oxford, and the University of California, San Diego, 25 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:02.920 and he has a new book out called You've Been Played How corporations, 26 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.840 governments, and schools use games to control us All. So, without any 27 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:15.199 further ado, here he is Adrian. Home. Well, Adrian, thank 28 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:17.560 you so much for joining me today. Hi great to be here. Am 29 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:21.879 I pronouncing that correctly? Adrian? Yeah, yep, Okay, I don't. 30 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.120 I can't think of an alternate pronunciation, but it's all good. You 31 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:30.599 never know. So I'm really excited to talk to you about your book and 32 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:35.960 just to talk to you about the concepts and the messages contained within. I 33 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:43.159 think that this conversation, although contextually, fits within the vibe of the show 34 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.400 quite well. I don't think it's a topic that we have directly approached before. 35 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:52.319 So let's start there. You've been played how corporations, governments, and 36 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.599 schools use games to control us all. You know a lot about gaming. 37 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.840 Let us know why? Sure, well, the book is about gamification, 38 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:07.000 and um, you know, that's the idea of using concepts and principles from 39 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:13.759 game design, you know, video games for non gaming purposes. So a 40 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:17.360 lot of the time that's probably harmless, you know, it's for trying to 41 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:22.639 make learning a new language more interesting, or practicing you know, a musical 42 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:27.439 instrument, or um, you know, just trying to make education more interesting. 43 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.439 But other times all sorts of things might be gamified, like trying to 44 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:38.680 get you to shop more, or trying to get you to work out of 45 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:44.439 it your or you at your workplace, and basically trying to manipulate your behavior. 46 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:46.879 And so that is what I've been trying to address, you know, 47 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:53.599 looking at all these different examples of how gamification there has been used for you 48 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.759 know, more or less harmful, harmless ways, and certainly more harmful ways 49 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:02.680 as well. So you yourself, how how did you kind of come to 50 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.960 being an expert on this topic? Well, I mean, you know, 51 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:13.439 the thing about gamification is, even though the term is fairly new, it 52 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.000 only really started being used about fifteen years ago. The idea of using you 53 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:23.879 know, games for education or ideas like points and badgers and leader boards has 54 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.040 been around four decades, if not hundreds of years. And so I've been 55 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:31.759 making educational games or what some people were called serious games for a long time 56 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:39.160 before you know, the idea of gamification came about. And um, you 57 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.560 know, I'm probably best known for a game called Zombies Run, which is 58 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.519 a smartphone fitness game that tries to make running more fun. And the thing 59 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:54.920 is is that Zombies Run is often used as an example of really good, 60 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:59.160 really successful gamification. It's a way to make exercising, you know, more 61 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:03.959 more in dressing, and we've got millions of players. The thing is is 62 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:09.800 that I have found that kind of increasing the uncomfortable over the years to be 63 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:15.199 lumped in with other forms of gamification, which to me just feels pretty badly 64 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:19.199 designed, if not, if not quite harmful. So even though what I 65 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:25.879 do is definitely gamification from a kind of formal perspective, it's not something that 66 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:30.480 I um go out of my way to kind and say what I do my 67 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:38.160 life's work is gamification. Right, So there's there's a stigma that's now connected 68 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:42.319 to this for good reason, because there actually is harm that we're starting to 69 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.600 see. But of course, when you first set out to design zombies Run, 70 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:49.759 maybe we can stick with them. I guess the purity, the positive 71 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.279 side of things first before we get into some of the dark underbelly. But 72 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.879 when you first set out to design zombies Run, like, did you go 73 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.480 into it with an intention? Were you like, this is the point and 74 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:08.879 I'm going to build to that intention or did it kind of happen more nebulously, 75 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.399 you know, I mean, it was pretty nebulous, I suppose. 76 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:17.079 I mean, I've always been attracted to unusual kinds of games and games that 77 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.879 combine different genres. The way I got into video games was not through designing 78 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:27.959 normal console games or PC games, but through alternate reality games, which kind 79 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:32.199 of take place in the real world, and they might combine emails and fake 80 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:39.079 websites and their phone calls with live actors and helicopters and things like that. 81 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:43.959 And so when we came up with the idea for Zombies Run, part of 82 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.839 it came from me just wanting to make running more interesting, because when I 83 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:54.959 started running, I found it really boring and vd tedious and quite painful. 84 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:00.480 And I sort of gamified it for myself by using you know, GP watch 85 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:04.560 and all these things. But I was surprised that no one had used the 86 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:09.959 new features of smartphones and of the iPhone to try and make it into more 87 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:15.920 of a game. And so ultimately, you know, there was a problem 88 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:20.360 that I had, which was I found running starting to run kind of boring 89 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:26.079 and demotivating, and I knew that, at least for me, a game 90 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:30.160 like this would have made it more fun and more motivating and more exciting. 91 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:38.399 And so it wasn't really out of this kind of belief that the games can 92 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.120 make everything better. It was more that, oh, I think I have 93 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.000 an idea for a game that can make this particular thing better. And so, 94 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.639 um, you know, I sat down with our co creator, Namie 95 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:54.800 Altman, who's an amazing author, and she said that she just joined an 96 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:59.160 online running club and they asked people there, you know, why do you 97 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.319 want to learn how to run? And some people said they wanted to lose 98 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.639 weight, and other people wanted to get fit, and one woman said that 99 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.319 she wanted to survive the zombie apocalypse. And that is kind of how the 100 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.879 zombie aspect if it came in, because it just worked really well from a 101 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.519 storytelling and gaming point of view. So I mean, just to sort of 102 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.240 the back to your question, it really was to try and make a particular 103 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:24.120 thing more fun. But it was very specific. It wasn't like, oh 104 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.120 and now we can use this to go and make cycling better and learning French 105 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.440 better. It was just it was just for running, really right right, 106 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.960 And I have to say, from my end, part of the reason that 107 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.240 I was excited to be on the show is because when I was looking at 108 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.639 your bio, and obviously the topic is I think such an important one, 109 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.840 But when I was looking at your bio, I was like, no, 110 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:48.759 way, that was him because I love that game so and embarrassing to say, 111 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.720 I don't run much anymore because my knees get angry by it. But 112 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.799 when I was, when I was running quite a lot, that really did 113 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:03.320 keep me going. Such a sma our idea to make your run part of 114 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.399 It's almost like I think of gosh, like Bradbury's the Velt or like these 115 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.639 ideas of the metaverse or these different things that we think of as VR, 116 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:15.200 but it's audio. It's like audio VR. You're you're entering into or maybe 117 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:18.120 more like audio AAR. You're entering into this other world, right, and 118 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:24.159 you're engaging. You're this person who needs to get from this village and find 119 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.960 these supplies and you don't want the zombie. You have to outrun the zombies. 120 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:31.639 Yes, well you have to add run the zombies. And we played 121 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.240 very closely to what we were able to do with the hardware and with the 122 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.840 technology and with our own resources at the time, which is to say, 123 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:45.120 you know, they had actually been other running games, even for the iPhone, 124 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:50.440 certainly for Android before Zombies Run, and most of them involved making you 125 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.720 look at the screen, look at a map, and show you where to 126 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.200 run, a bit like Pokemon go right, and you start to do while 127 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:01.480 you're actually running, well exactly, it's it's kind of unsafe and really not 128 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:07.000 very satisfying to kind of stop it all the time, and so um, 129 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.200 you know, from a game design perspective, they just weren't very very good 130 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.399 for running, and so I think that we were able to use audio in 131 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.120 a way. I mean, we all know if you listen to podcasts, 132 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.080 you listen to audiobooks, it can be really intimate. It can feel really 133 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.720 directly emotional. Certainly when you're running, you feel that. And so I 134 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:35.600 think we're able to put people into a really immersive environment where in some ways 135 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.799 we're just distracting people, you know, from from the sort of pain and 136 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.919 tedium of running, particularly for beginners. In other ways, I think we 137 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.320 really are motivating them. You know, there's a mission Mission two, which 138 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:54.720 is my favorite one, where the gates on the base fail and the stuck 139 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.320 open and the zombies approaching, and you have to go out there with noisemaker 140 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:03.399 to distract the zombies and they kind of like, you know, everyone's washing 141 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.399 around and and it just feels every time I play that, even though I 142 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.159 played it like a dozen times, I sort of have to speed up, 143 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:15.519 and there is something that is really direct about that. Yeah, it's sort 144 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:20.639 of like the you've seen the VR sort of experiments or demonstrations where you have 145 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.440 to walk a plank and it's like you know that you're in VR. You 146 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.279 know the ground is under you, but it's still you have, Yes, 147 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.720 you have like a nervous system reaction. It's the same thing when you hear 148 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.799 the zombies getting closer, you have to run faster, exactly. It's so 149 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:41.759 brilliant tapping into something like deeply psychological. And of course this construct, this 150 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.000 idea of using You know, when we think of gaming, we think of 151 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.840 fun, we think of engagement. Like you said, we think of distraction, 152 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.639 we think of cognitive load, but in like a positive way, you 153 00:11:54.679 --> 00:12:01.240 know, attention something that we want to draw our attention to, utilizing gaming 154 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:09.039 to improve things that we already value, I guess societally, like education, 155 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:16.279 like exercise. Well, I think that the best forms, or at least 156 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:24.399 the forms of gamification that are hardest to criticize are ones that the person, 157 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:31.360 you know, the user of the player, has picked for themselves. Rather 158 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.960 than someone saying, well, I think you should do this. This is 159 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.879 something where the person says I want to do this and where and this is 160 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:43.159 I'm going to be really specific here where the person that says, even like 161 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.720 five years later or ten years later would agree is still a good idea because 162 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:52.960 and because it's very possible for people to go and say, well, I 163 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:54.240 think this is a good idea for me to do now, which is to 164 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.919 say, you know, if you're twenty and you're just like I just want 165 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.519 to go and spend eighty eighteen hours a week playing this video game, you 166 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:07.440 might think that's a good idea, right, And I can't argue against that 167 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.080 that much, but I would say that probably you would feel differently five years 168 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:13.799 time or ten years time, and so there is this kind of like that's 169 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.159 my get out for saying, well, I just think that, you know, 170 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.200 we know what people should be doing best. And so all of that 171 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.840 is to say I think that if someone wants to go and use gamification to 172 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.000 make it more interesting to learn, you know, Japanese, or to make 173 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:37.200 cycling more fun, or to you know, learn about physics and a video 174 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.639 game, I'd say that sounds amazing, actually, And I hope the game 175 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.759 is good. But even if the game is bad, that's kind of okay, 176 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:48.039 right, because no one is being fooled here and people are going into 177 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.639 with their eyes open. I would say it gets worse when the game is 178 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.159 bad. I think that's a shame because people are wasting their money and their 179 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.879 time. So there are quite a lot of games out there like this. 180 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.879 So I would say a lot of brain training games and apps on smartphones are 181 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.919 like this, where they say, well, we can improve your memory, 182 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.480 we can improve your intelligence, we can make you better at your job if 183 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:18.080 you play these mini games, and unsurprisingly a lot of people think that's a 184 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.720 good thing to do. I would do it if it actually worked. I 185 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.240 mean, the problem is is that these apps do not work, and they're 186 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:28.759 certainly not as useful as perhaps just going out for walk or you know, 187 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:33.600 doing some crosswords or learning how to dance, and so that is bad. 188 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:39.000 I mean, that's just that's just false advertising fundamentally. But it's using using 189 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:43.720 gamification as a cloak. And so those are the kind of like either perfectly 190 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:50.000 fine or just somewhat objection about things. But then there are more worrying forms 191 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:54.200 of gamification, which I would call coercive gamification, which which I spend a 192 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.759 fair bit of time on. Right, So maybe maybe you know, we 193 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:03.559 dive into that now because I think that there's probably gamification happening to us, 194 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.679 you know, and I think that really is the big distinction that we maybe 195 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:15.840 don't even recognize as such. Because the UI or because the experience feels so 196 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:18.480 natural, so fluid. It's it's just part. It's just become part of 197 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.960 our lives. So I would love to enter into this conversation about the harm 198 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.399 you know, like as you mentioned the corporations, the governments, you know, 199 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:31.200 like the controlling components that that you talk about. Well. So, 200 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.879 I mean a good example of this would be loyalty programs of all kinds. 201 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.440 So you have frequent fly programs, you have the auto programs for places like 202 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.960 Starbucks, and you know, it's always interesting talking about these because when I 203 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.279 talk about them, people say, yeah, but I love getting a free 204 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.039 flight, I love getting you know, free coffee, and it's like, 205 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:56.799 well, obviously it's not really free because you know some things. But also 206 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.320 you know, you see people seeing, oh, well I just need fifty 207 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.840 more stars to go and get an extra thing, or today is double double 208 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.960 XP day or double points day, and they go and buy an extra coffee 209 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.159 that maybe they didn't actually really want or need, but um, but this 210 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:17.759 is some something where they think, well, I actually really value these points. 211 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.639 Right at the very least, they wouldn't have done it otherwise probably yeah, 212 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:23.960 they wouldn't have done otherwise and maybe they didn't feel so terrible about it, 213 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.039 but but I mean, obviously the behavior is being changed. I think 214 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.799 everyone would probably agree that they would behave differently if the loyalty program didn't exist, 215 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.679 and you have that in a really troubling way. I think, for 216 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.360 for frequent fly programs, where people will do things like mileage runs, where 217 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.320 you know, just to sort of get to the next tier to upgrade, 218 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:52.600 they will just fly kind of pointlessly. Really, Oh gosh, that's so 219 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.279 detrimental. That's all I thought you were going to mention. You know how 220 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:56.600 sometimes when you when you go to buy your flight, they're like, you 221 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.679 can double your miles for an extra two hundred dollars. Like what, well, 222 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.759 I'm not going to be that. But that's like not even as bad 223 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.359 as flying for no reason in putting all of that carbon into the air, 224 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.279 Like wow, exactly exactly. I mean that's another thing. I mean, 225 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:18.400 that's a good point where these points and these different sort of currencies really obver 226 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:23.160 skate value, right. It just makes it harder for people to understand what 227 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:29.079 they're getting out of it. And that's why, incidentally, why a lot 228 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:33.079 of you know, free to play games and really kind of compulsive, addictive 229 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.400 games or mobile have like five different currencies, you know, and you're just 230 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.880 like, wait a second, how much of these tickets worth? And you 231 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:45.279 know, it makes it harder to really understand what's going on and to sort 232 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.440 of convert that to money, you know, in a way, I think, 233 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.359 sorry to interject, but in a way, I think it's why I 234 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.559 have. You know, you look at like credit card culture right to live 235 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.319 in modern America, but to live in the lope, to live anywhere in 236 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:04.440 the world right now, and and engage right in this kind of like capitalist 237 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.279 stranglehold we have, we need we need credit, And um, a lot 238 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.920 of people utilize credit, you know, responsibly, and a lot of people 239 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.440 utilize credit irresponsibly. Whether um, that's a whole other conversation, but whatever, 240 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.400 there's a lot of predatory practices that, um that make it very easy 241 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:26.519 to be irresponsible with credit anyway, Well I all of them. Yeah, 242 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.960 So I was gonna say, I think the points do play into that. 243 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.000 Wh why that is? Yeah, And so like I my credit cards that 244 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.519 I use, which you have to use credit cards anyway, are all cash 245 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.319 back cards. And when I talk to my friends and they're like, why 246 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.839 don't you have an airline card run I'm like, because I know exactly that 247 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.759 I'm going to get one point five percent cash back on everything I use. 248 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.599 I have to use the credit card anyway. It's it's what I'm It's how 249 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.319 I live my life if I got no note, nothing back. And I'm 250 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.279 sure it influences me. I'm sure I'm just as much as sucker. But 251 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.119 there's something or me about the fact that I know exactly it's dollars as opposed 252 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:08.359 to some sort of point that I have to convert, which simplifies it for 253 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.319 me and makes me feel like less of a sucker. No, is that 254 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.039 valid, is what I'm asking. No, I think it's I mean that's 255 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.880 what I do. I think it's totally valid, and I think it makes 256 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.920 things much more transparent. I mean, that's one of them, is ultimately, 257 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:26.079 And you do see people on frequent flyer websites who'll be like, well, 258 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.160 actually, if you get this AMEX you know, Delta airline thing and 259 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.240 use it for two months and you I mean people treat you know, these 260 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:41.119 things like games and and there are ways to play them well, and um, 261 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.160 you know, in fact, in frequent Flyer programs. People will often 262 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.839 call their spouse or their part and their player too because they can they can 263 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.559 unlock more benefits. So so, but it's like a casino, right, 264 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:57.960 Like the reason that a handful of people can do well is because so many 265 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.880 other people are doing so, or like otherwise they wouldn't that wouldn't be the 266 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.759 system because the corporation wouldn't be making money. That is exactly right. And 267 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:12.240 it allows people who have the time, um, and and the sort of 268 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:17.799 capacity to juggle, you know, five different credit cards and to spend lots 269 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.759 of time on forums learning about the latest deals. Those people get rewarded for 270 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.839 you know, that effort, and everyone else who doesn't have the time, 271 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.319 um, you know it is essentially paying for that. And so I think 272 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.240 that is so it's really important to say that a lot of cases where our 273 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.200 lives are being gamified, it is possible for for people, if they're dedicated 274 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.599 enough, to play that game in a way that will work for them. 275 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.359 But like you say, it is impossible for that to work in a way 276 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.759 that benefits everyone. Like, it's that's just not how it works. So 277 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.920 system is Bill, It's it's a feature, not a bug. Yes, 278 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.559 yes, And I think it is very convenient for these companies to be able 279 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.960 to point at people and say, wow, look at this person who earned 280 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.960 like five free flights or these upgrades or whatever, and people can think, 281 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.920 well, I could get that as well, and it's like, there is 282 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.960 no way you're getting that because you would have to completely transform your life probably 283 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:19.680 to make that work. And and that is worrying because I mean, do 284 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.599 you really want to transform your life to get you some extra coffees to get 285 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:29.440 some extra flights? That is, that is probably not what most people would 286 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.160 if they were asked to kind of in a neutral way, without advertising what 287 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.240 they would say their value. So I think there's a lot of this going 288 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.480 on. And in some places we can avoid it. We can just say 289 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:42.559 well, I'm just going to get the cash back credit card, and other 290 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.519 places it's it's basically impossible to avoid. So um, you know, in 291 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.160 the UK, we've been following the US, we have much more we have 292 00:21:55.240 --> 00:22:02.519 more people joining private healthcare insurance because the NHS is being underfunded, and a 293 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:08.519 lot of these insurers use points systems and use gamification to encourage you to do 294 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:14.359 certain things. And again sometimes that is to they'll reward you. They'll give 295 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:18.720 your extra points if you go running more as measured by your Apple Watch, 296 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.680 if you get to the gym more as measured by you checking in, even 297 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:27.680 if you buy vegetables and healthy foods. They can sync up with your supermarket 298 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:32.559 purchases and see what you're buying. And you could say, well, that's 299 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:37.319 good, I'm being rewarded for these things. And it makes me feel quite 300 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:44.079 uncomfortable because it is. It also means that you're being punished if you want 301 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:48.440 behaving in a certain way. And I think that is strange coming from the 302 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:53.119 UK, where we didn't used to link the provision of healthcare and the cost 303 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.839 of healthcare with your behavior in that way. If you see what I mean, 304 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.799 I know that's kind of more normal and different treats be in the UK. 305 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.799 It used to be it doesn't really matter who you are, doesn't matter 306 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.200 how you behave, We're just going to go and treat you and it's going 307 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:11.319 to cost nothing. And now, which, yeah's different, and that may 308 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.599 be you know, two American ears. In some ways that maybe what is 309 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:18.400 seen as kind of extremely on one side, and then of course the sort 310 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:23.519 of directly tying to behavior might be seen as extreme on another side. But 311 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.519 ultimately, when we look at the evidence base, we know that behavior only 312 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.359 takes us so far when it comes to health. And yes, it is 313 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:37.039 part it is a variable amongst a very complex algorithm. And to oversimplify it 314 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:42.480 that way actually is it's a social justice failure, right, it is it's 315 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:48.480 punishing people for existing. Yeah. So yeah, yikes. Yeah. So 316 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:53.400 one one area of that, the research that need for this book that kind 317 00:23:53.440 --> 00:24:00.680 of surprised me. The most um is of kids. And you know, 318 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:06.720 if an adult looks at this particular thing which I'm going to subscribe, they 319 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.440 would say, well, of course there's a gamification. It's kind of weird. 320 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.480 And kids, obviously they don't know any better, so they just think 321 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:18.279 it's it's normal. And there is this app called class Dojo which is in 322 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.240 use in supposedly nine of US schools and certainly lots of schools in the UK, 323 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:32.279 and it's basically behavior classroom management app for teachers, and it does sort 324 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.240 of two things. The first thing is it's like a private social network where 325 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.440 teachers and parents and students can connect and share homework and photos. And that's 326 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.720 all fine, there's nothing too bad about that. But the weirder thing about 327 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:52.720 it. What I learned was it's a way of basically trying to manage classrooms. 328 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.000 So the teacher installs the class Dojo app on their phone and they set 329 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:02.880 up a grid showing all the different students UM, and they can set up 330 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:08.440 points systems so that if you know Mary is behaving well, then class ten 331 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:14.960 points, and if you know Peter is behaving badly or sleeping or whatever going 332 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.039 to the toilet too much, even you know, minus twenty points and so 333 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:26.440 UM class Dodo essentially gamifies behavior in the in the classroom UM and teachers, 334 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.279 some teachers love it, and even some parents love it. Some kids love 335 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:34.680 it. UM. You see lots of stories of schools quite openly saying, 336 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.279 well, you know, here's the point setup you have, and hear the 337 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.599 rewards that you get if you have certain points totals like you get to play 338 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.519 on video games, you get to go to lunch early, you get to 339 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:48.960 you know, get sweets, that sort of thing, you get to get 340 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:56.480 to break early. And so it is basically sort of incentivizing kids for good 341 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:03.160 behavior three points and through through you know, through a game, and you 342 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.400 know the way thing is. But whenever I talked to people about this. 343 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:10.000 Certain people of a certain age will say, well, have we always done 344 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.000 this? Right? We always had That's what I was about to. Yeah, 345 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.920 like you know, haven't we? Like we we actually teach, you 346 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:19.200 know, I'm a psychotherapist, and when we're working with parents, you know, 347 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:26.119 doing parent training with kids with conduct disorders or ADHD, we will often 348 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:32.319 teach like you know, a poker chip model and transactional and quid pro quo 349 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:38.440 structures to help these children learn responsibility or to learn boundaries. Um And, 350 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.160 in a way, that's the same thing. It's just not digital, but 351 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:47.920 is it not? Well, so, I think that something changes when it 352 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:52.440 becomes digital and what it becomes this move basically um So. People have liken 353 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.119 it to getting gold stars or you know, putting morbles on a job. 354 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.279 These are sorts of things that you know, happened when I was a kid 355 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.519 or or decades before that. And I think it's different because it's much faster 356 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.519 and much easier, and it remembers much better things like that. It could 357 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:17.400 be more punitive, It could be more punitive, It can be communicated easier 358 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:22.000 to parents. Um it. You know, it's just harder for people to 359 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:27.000 kind of wipe the slately in on something that is digital that is always working, 360 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:34.720 and there are certain effects to it that are really unexpected but also very 361 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:42.279 powerful. So um, so when when the teacher gives so one points or 362 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.799 deduct points as a certain sound effect, you know, that happens as you 363 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:51.839 might expect, you know, happy sound when you're getting a machine. And 364 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:57.440 the crucial thing is it doesn't like, say, necessarily who has received those 365 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:03.599 points or been aducted those points and so on the class dojo official blog they 366 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.759 had a post saying, you know, this sound effect is really really powerful. 367 00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:12.359 People kids really respond to this, and researchers have found this as well, 368 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:18.240 and so the blog said, um, what you might consider doing is 369 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:26.119 sending up a fake student in your classroom and occasionally deducting points from that student 370 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:33.200 so as to scare effectively the other kids into submission. Because I'm not sure 371 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.559 this is like some creepy mid century psychology experiment stuff, right, I mean 372 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.799 this behaviorism right yeah, like but like but like the dark side of behavior 373 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.279 yes, yes, um, and so this is a thing, of course, 374 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.079 so I might say, well, I don't use it in that way, 375 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.200 and I just use it to reward people, and I don't punish people, 376 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.039 and blah blah blah. Absolutely true. I'm sure there are a lot 377 00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:02.079 of teachers out there who use it in a perfectly okay but I think that 378 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.640 the tool enables people to use in a bad way. And I would say 379 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.480 that, you know, I can imagine it's helpful in certain circumstances. I 380 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:18.200 think that what is worrying to teachers and parents who've spoken to me about it 381 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:23.440 is it is encouraging people, kids to learn and to behave for the wrong 382 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.039 reasons. Effectively, you know, you're saying, well, the reason why 383 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:32.759 you should be quiet is because you will get more points, and the reason 384 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.920 why you shouldn't, you know, make trouble is because you'll be the data 385 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.440 points, not because of more kind of intrinsic reasons. I mean, of 386 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:44.799 course, I'm sure that teachers would say, well, here's the real reasons, 387 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.119 but the things that are being reinforced are the points. That is what 388 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:53.640 you're really worried about, which is like the antithesis of one of the other 389 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.960 big things that we often do when working with children and children who are struggling 390 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:04.119 with some of these behavioral issues, is really emphasizing what we call natural consequences 391 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:11.680 and not trying to make everything feel like an artificial transaction, because we will 392 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:17.160 not mature and develop and grow if we don't see the real world consequences of 393 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:19.319 our actions. And if we yeah, if we separate those things out too 394 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:26.279 much, we're actually perpetuating a sort of like immaturity in children. Yeah, 395 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:33.799 And I think the gamification can be a useful scaffolding to get people into the 396 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:41.359 habit of behaving in a certain way, right It Like I a zombies run, 397 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.119 Like my hope is eventually people get good enough of running that they don't 398 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.000 need zombies run to run anymore. Maybe they find it fun, but but 399 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.599 they just don't need it. And I think that the danger is when the 400 00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:00.119 game is not designed to let people go eventually and to to sort of development 401 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:06.799 as people. And of course that that's against usually the commotional addressed of the 402 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.160 company. I mean, the company wants to get people playing and engaging with 403 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.319 the app or the game, Trevor, because you make more, right, 404 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:18.839 good luck selling that to the that the CEO. Right, That's that's it's 405 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.440 a tall order within kind of this capitalist view that we're looking at, and 406 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.680 especially when we think of games we think of games as entertainment, we think 407 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:33.839 of them as as money making prospects. Yeah, exactly. So those are 408 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.599 the places where I think people don't necessarily know that they're being played. You 409 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:44.039 know that that they are, that they think it's just normal. All right, 410 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.000 everyone, I want to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of 411 00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:52.359 this week's episode, Story Pitch Decks. 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Yeah, 425 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.759 I'm curious about another component that I find is somewhat psychologically damaging, but 426 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.240 I'm not sure how the literature bears out, so this is going to be 427 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.519 a little bit anecdotal. But as you were talking about this classroom map, 428 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:15.000 I was thinking about this like massive trend. And I don't know if you 429 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.200 if you have it in the UK, but here these gyms they call them 430 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:22.559 Orange theory gyms, but I think that's just you know, that one company, 431 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:25.599 but there are probably other iterations of it where people wear wearables and then 432 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:30.240 their stats are up on this huge scene and I'm like, I can't imagine 433 00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:34.799 that is so black mirror to me. All I can think about is feeling 434 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.200 shame, you know, But maybe that's my own psychology talking. So this 435 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:45.319 feels dangerous to me to constantly compare ourselves to other people. I have seen 436 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:47.680 these and I have to confess in some ways, I think, wow, 437 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.559 that looks like that's fun, and some people, some people love it, 438 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.640 they flock to it, and you know, it's not exactly the same thing. 439 00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:00.759 But over the pandemic, I've got a palat home and of course pelt 440 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.920 On it is similarly gamified, and it shows your your points in your output, 441 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.719 and there's a leader board with everyone who's working out at the same time 442 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:15.360 as you. And the thing that I always tell game designers and tell people 443 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.000 who are interest in the gamification is that it is it is motivating, and 444 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.559 it is exciting to see yourself rising up on the leader board, like you 445 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:27.800 think, wow, I'm really making progress here and I'm doing better and I'm 446 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:31.679 beating all these people. But for every person who is at the top of 447 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.519 the leader boarder for every person who's going up the leader board, there was 448 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:37.760 someone who's going down, and there's someone who's at the bottom of the leader 449 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:44.679 board. Right it's a zero some game like it is not. It is 450 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:46.800 not motivating to be the person at the bottom of the leader board. It 451 00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:54.440 just feels terrible. And so I and fundamentally I think that there are some 452 00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:00.159 people who who love competition, and who are best motivators for competition and who 453 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:06.280 are not who don't get sort of distraught through it. I think most people 454 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.320 are not actually like that. I think most people who can't find it okay. 455 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:13.480 But you know, I always compare it to when I was playing football. 456 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.039 While I spening soccer at school with my friends, and it wasn't part 457 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.760 of any organized league or anything like that. We just play five a side 458 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.440 soccer on the weekends. And the way we would organize it is that we 459 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:29.039 would be counting goals. You know, we would know that this side had 460 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:32.719 gone fifteen goals and this other side had gone twenty goals. But if it 461 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:37.079 got to the point where it was like fifty goals versus ten, it was 462 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:40.440 like, well, this is not fun anymore, right, We're not here 463 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:45.159 for one team to go and beat up the other team. We're here to 464 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:47.039 have fun. And so we would just swap around the teams. We'd say, 465 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:51.320 well, look, you two, you're the strongest players. You go 466 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.880 over the other team now, and we're going to try it even out. 467 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:59.880 And so we did keep score, but only as a way of really make 468 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.880 sure that it was still being fun. And so I think it's just very 469 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:09.280 very basic, very kind of starved game design to go and say, well, 470 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:14.880 okay, we're gathering all this data from you, and all we're going 471 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:16.679 to do is just say, well, you're doing better than this other person. 472 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:21.440 I mean, that is terrible. It's it's really boring, and and 473 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.719 you know, eventually people will just get bored by it. So it doesn't 474 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.280 even work on a long run, but it does work in the short run. 475 00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:30.400 And I think it also taps into you know, like kind of broadening 476 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:35.719 this out from a social psychology perspective, I think it really does tappen too, 477 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.719 you know, a failure of sort of the American ethic which has been 478 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.320 now exported into a lot of the world. Or maybe I could say it's 479 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:46.280 a Western ethic, you know, maybe it maybe it predated us, but 480 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:52.559 very much this manifest destiny, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, rags to 481 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:58.280 riches, like all of these different iterations of this ethic, which ultimately culminates. 482 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.559 I remember reading some study and I'm going, I'm wildly misquoting because I 483 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:02.400 don't have it in front of me. So guys, like, take what 484 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:07.239 I'm saying with a massive grain of salt. But I remember reading some study 485 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:09.360 where they were like surveying kids from around the world, and they were asking 486 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:14.400 these kids, you know, what percentile do you fall in in these different 487 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.119 areas, these skill areas, And it's like in America, like eighty percent 488 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:20.960 of the kids thought they were in the eightieth percentile. And I'm like, 489 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:25.679 well, sadly, that's just not possible. And I think it's it is 490 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:30.199 that American exceptionalism thing where it can be motivating for a lot of people to 491 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:34.920 be like, I want to win. But it's also so it's it's you 492 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.519 know, it's the dark side of social media for teens as we see it 493 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:40.920 right now, Like it is so bad for self esteem. It is so 494 00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:46.800 detrimental to self efficacy when you're comparing yourself to others, And why not make 495 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:52.239 a small tweak and just compare yourself to yourself? Well, why can't you 496 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.840 just show improvement within your own game? Well I would go even beyond that 497 00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.199 and say, I don't even know that you have to ensure improvement at all, 498 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:06.719 right, YEA progress can't keep going exactly. You know, when I 499 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:09.800 was starting out running, you know, I mentioned I had this GPS tracker 500 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:14.519 and I had this very rudimentary game on it, or not even the game. 501 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.679 It was just called ghost mode. Basically what you could do is you 502 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:23.920 could race against your previous rundogs. So this was really fun. Actually when 503 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.679 I really motivating when I started running, because I was just beating my previous 504 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:30.880 self all the time, and then you were also in a growth phase. 505 00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:35.000 Yeah, exactly. I was just building the muscle, I was building up 506 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.599 stamina. It was great. And then of course there came a moment in 507 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.760 a few months later when I don't know what it was, I was getting 508 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:47.480 ill or I was just plateauing, and then my past self was beating me, 509 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.000 and I was like, wow, this sucks, Like I don't want 510 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.280 to do it anymore, you know. And of course the answer is that 511 00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.320 the point of running is not to just go and keep on getting faster, 512 00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:07.639 because it's actually an impossible but you can't do that. You need to do 513 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:14.199 something that you find enjoyable and satisfying. And I think that where we have 514 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:20.199 ended up is that a lot of people feel obliged to certain things that they 515 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:24.000 don't actually find fun or find enjoyable. Right. I really think that there 516 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:29.679 is at least one form of exercise out there, or one sport out there 517 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.880 that everyone would actually really like doing, even if they weren't very good at 518 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.079 it. Right, That is not the same thing. You can like doing 519 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.119 something that you're not good at, but you're still getting something out of And 520 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:45.000 that's why I feel about rowing. Yeah I'm not good at it, but 521 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:49.840 I find, for whatever reason, when I row in the gym versus running 522 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.719 on a treadmill in a gym, which you know apples to apples you can't 523 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.199 really but whatever, you get the cardio and you get all the things, 524 00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:59.360 and people will argue that this is better, that's better, but ultimately it's 525 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:01.440 good for you, right, And I find that when I'm rowing it, 526 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:07.639 I'm not in pain and I'm not like angry the whole time, and I'm 527 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:10.079 like, oh, I think probably i am just this is the right thing 528 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:16.400 for me. Yes. And so what I think where gamification can work best 529 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:21.639 is when it helps ease people into these things, or it helps make things 530 00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:25.400 that are not fun for people more fun. You know. The crucial thing 531 00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:30.039 is is that you know, Zombies Run is not going to work for everyone, 532 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:35.239 partly because a lot of people don't like zombies, but also a lot 533 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.880 of people don't like audio stories. They don't like that sort of thing. 534 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:40.840 They don't they just or they might actually just feel stressed by it instead of 535 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:47.280 motivated exactly. And what I would hope happens is not that Zombies Run takes 536 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:51.360 over the world. It's more that we get a thousand zombies runs, you 537 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:55.320 know, that are made for the right thing, for the right tastes. 538 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.360 And they might not even be smartphone apps. They might not be video games. 539 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.880 They might just be football clubs or things like that, because you know, 540 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:07.719 football is a game and basketball is a game, and you know we 541 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.159 shouldn't forget that. So I think that's where like I end up, which 542 00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:17.119 is we need to figure out ways of making activities satisfying in a lot of 543 00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:22.480 themselves, outside of improvement, outside of competition, outside of points. Even 544 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.519 we can use that as a kind of scaffold to get people there, but 545 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:32.920 the goal should be that people don't really need it actually interesting. So kind 546 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:38.719 of tell me of what I'm hearing. Tell me if you agree with this 547 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:46.559 sort of takeaway that ultimately we can quibble about the how and what is maybe 548 00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:53.039 more effective, more efficient, healthier, more detrimental. But unless we enter 549 00:41:53.119 --> 00:42:00.360 into it with a clear, almost a priori decision about why, it could 550 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.639 kind of run away from us. But if we always go in with an 551 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:07.320 a priori decision about why, then we're always going to be thinking about getting 552 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.760 back to that goal, maintaining the right constraints, the right guard rails, 553 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:20.719 and ultimately we can be proud of, you know, a gamification utilization and 554 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.039 not be afraid of it. I think that's really good. I think that 555 00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:28.639 people need to know why they're going into it, and I think designers need 556 00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:34.239 to know why they're designing it. So you know that there's a in the 557 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:38.960 book I sort of praise Duolingo a fair bit, and if I were writing 558 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:44.800 it now, I probably take that back. Actually interesting, So Duolingo, 559 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:50.639 obviously extremely popular language learning app uses a lot of gamification. If you used 560 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.559 it before, then you know that everything you do in it, you know, 561 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:57.920 like doing vocabulary and doing games and tests and things that that gets your 562 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:06.119 points and um they you know, my my partner's mom started using it, 563 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:12.480 and she would occasionally disappear, um just a weird point in the evening, 564 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:16.199 like during dinner or like in conversations and things, and then go off to 565 00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:21.880 another room. And then during lingo sound effects would appear from that room and 566 00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.239 eventually, you know, we'd be like, why are you going off and 567 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:30.599 just doing during lingo now of all times? And she'd be saying, Oh, 568 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:36.000 this is you know, dur Lingo XP happy Hour where for this hour, 569 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.800 every completed test gets you double XP. And it's like, well, 570 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:46.800 okay, but how does that really help you learn French? Right? And 571 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:51.079 it helps them make money, you know, it helps them make money. 572 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:57.440 And and crucially I think that she probably if she started using due lingo and 573 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.599 it said by the way, um, we're going to do this thing where 574 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:06.920 you're going to feel compelled to abandon your dinner for an hour because you want 575 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:09.159 extra XP? Does that sound okay to you? You probably say that sounds 576 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:16.119 absolutely bonkous. I don't want that. So that is a thing where they're 577 00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:21.079 not really sure what they're doing. And I think the designers don't know what 578 00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:25.159 they're doing either, because I've looked at blog post on social media posts by 579 00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:29.840 the designers of you and they go and all they can talk about is engagement. 580 00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:32.920 It's just engagement, it's just attention, it's just all these things. 581 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:37.239 And I'm like, you are assuming that the more time people spend with your 582 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:42.159 app, it equals better learning, and I don't think that's justified. And 583 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:46.960 it just feels really horrible, honestly, Like it just feels like you've lost 584 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.800 sight of what you're trying to do here. Yea, And yeah, it's 585 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:54.719 like the Instagram, Facebook, Twitter model. You know, it's just but 586 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:58.400 that the point of all of that is just to serve more ads, to 587 00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:00.239 get more data, to make more money, right, Like, ultimately, 588 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.000 it's keep you on the system and keep you engaged so that you know, 589 00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:12.159 the actual corporate whatever, the money making component of this can keep churning, 590 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.079 right, And I totally believe that at the start they were like, well, 591 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.800 we are here to go and help people learn a new language. But 592 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.079 by the end, it's like, we just need the number to go up, 593 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.239 you know, we need more users spending more time and making us more 594 00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.360 money from this. And it doesn't really matter ultimately whether they're learning anything. 595 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:36.000 What matters is if they're spending more time a bit. So what I'm hearing 596 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.639 is that one of the fundamental problems here really is capitalism, right, is 597 00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:44.000 this idea? I mean, yeah, we mentioned it earlier, Just like 598 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:47.800 you can't always become faster and faster and faster as a runner. But for 599 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:52.159 some reason, built into the capitalist system that we live in, there's an 600 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:57.920 expectation that corporations will make more money quarter after a quarter. And it's like, 601 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.440 that's not sustainable, but for some is, and everybody's just pretending it 602 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:06.119 is. Well, yeah, and I think it is. It's really it's 603 00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:12.840 sad because when game designers get into this business, you know, you know, 604 00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:17.360 I'll often talk to game designers who who basically they start gamifying their own 605 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.400 games, which sounds weird, but what it means is what it means is 606 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:28.199 basically making games less fun but making more money by adding in loop boxes and 607 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.039 things like that. And I would always say to them, look, none 608 00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:36.639 of us got into this business to become rich. You don't. You don't 609 00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:38.639 try and become rich by being a game designer, right, if you want 610 00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:43.400 to do that and you get a math going to finance or something. But 611 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:47.159 we got into game design because we want to entertain people, you know, 612 00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:50.920 we want to make their lives fun. We want to do something unique and 613 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.960 special and kind of technically impressive, or tell an amazing story, all these 614 00:46:54.960 --> 00:47:00.880 things, right, and you need to make money as a game designer. 615 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.639 Otherwise you can't pay the bells, you know. But at the same time, 616 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.599 we didn't get into it necessarily to become billionaires. But that's where we 617 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.719 get driven to by the wider culture, even if you don't have shareholders saying 618 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:19.280 that. And so I think that is what ends up happening, where people 619 00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.599 stop with these really good intentions and they just start thinking, well, actually, 620 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:27.760 what we really need to do is just make more money, and gamification 621 00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.960 is a way of manipulating people's behavior to do that, at least in the 622 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:37.599 short term. Yeah, I think just like we think about social psychology, 623 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:42.840 we think about you know, persuasion science, and these are tools, right, 624 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:46.920 and they can be used really, you know, kind of beneficently. 625 00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:52.639 We can use them for social good or they can really be misused for manipulation 626 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:59.000 and for social control. And the sad thing about these tools, like the 627 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:04.119 things we learn from so psychology, persuasion science, and gamification being a very 628 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:13.320 very effective tool, is that it can even be utilized when the when the 629 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:17.639 user is unsuspecting, like they don't even know they're engaging in it, And 630 00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:22.639 that's where things become really ethically nebulous. So I'm curious in the book, 631 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:28.719 you know, what are some examples that you um that you offer for people 632 00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:31.119 where kind of we don't have any choice but to use this system and we 633 00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:36.480 don't even really realize that we're being played. UM. I mean, the 634 00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:43.920 the workplaces is probably the most frequent example of this, where um, you 635 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:47.079 know, some of the most obvious examples will be in um gig economy jobs 636 00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:53.519 like uber um and delivery jobs and things like that. These these jobs, 637 00:48:53.519 --> 00:49:00.280 because they are sort of um, they tend to be mediated by smart homes. 638 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.760 So if you are a yeah, yeah, they're app based, and 639 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:07.000 so you don't really have you don't have like a boss, you don't have 640 00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:12.239 a human you can talk to. Really all your jobs and your instructions are 641 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.360 coming from the app, and your conversation is coming from the app. And 642 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:19.039 so that means that if they want to try and motivate you to do certain 643 00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.960 things, they could either just go and give you an order, or they 644 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.920 can try and turn it into a game. And that is what happens in 645 00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:30.880 uber where they will offer drivers quests every week or so. And and I 646 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.599 sort of use that term very specifically. It's not like here's your objective or 647 00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.360 here's your your job or whatever, it's your quest. It's a it's a 648 00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:43.559 name for a video game. And the idea is you can sign up to 649 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.480 drive forty trips in a week and you get a bonus, or fifty trips 650 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:51.000 in a week and you get a different bonus. And you know, I've 651 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.599 spoken to some drivers about this and I said, look, isn't this a 652 00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:58.199 good thing, because like you get more money, And they say, no, 653 00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:02.960 I just feel like I'm being manipulated because I don't actually want to do 654 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.440 that, right, And and they are suspicious of it because when they feel 655 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:14.280 that, when they get close to the target, then the jobs dry up, 656 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.280 you know, and they don't they can't see behind the curtain. They 657 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.800 don't know, like right now, that might not be true. You know, 658 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.719 maybe maybe that's not what's happening. But it's completely trying to a pike. 659 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.239 And what would obviously be better, would be fairer, is they just 660 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.280 paid more money, right, That would be a really easy way of doing 661 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:39.519 things. Um so, so you know, it is really it's just really 662 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:46.000 interesting seeing people talk about this. I saw one worker talking about the gamification 663 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:51.119 on their delivery app and they said, at the start, they found that 664 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:54.079 really motivating. You know, they would deliver, you know, some food 665 00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:59.000 and there'll be fireworks on their phone, and they get all these points and 666 00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:01.280 they'd level up and all this stuff and they just felt really energized to do 667 00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.920 the next job. And then the same app the same gamification six months later. 668 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:12.800 We just feel absolutely crushing and a manipulative where it would just be like, 669 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:16.639 well, just thirty more jobs to maintain your current level for this week, 670 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.960 right, and you think, oh my god, I have to keep 671 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.119 on doing this, like, you know, I need to keep on playing 672 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:25.440 this game. And so that is a case where like it is the same 673 00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:30.039 thing, the same thing that they liked at the start is the thing that 674 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:34.519 they hate by the end. It's just so black mirror. I just can't 675 00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:37.679 not feel that way. And the funny thing is it's I can just hear 676 00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:43.199 these people in these in these boardrooms having conversations about how do we motivate these 677 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:45.719 people to like, how do we motivate them to do more into it. 678 00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:47.599 It's like, how about you just pay them a living wage and you're nice 679 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:52.119 to them and you give them like time off. Like it's kind of amazing 680 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.360 that we already know the answer to this question, but we're not willing to 681 00:51:54.400 --> 00:52:00.320 accept it and we'd rather try to force it through like trickery. Well, 682 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:02.800 well it's you know, we know what the answer is, but it's not 683 00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:06.599 acceptable, you know. And oh right, that's that's part of It's like, 684 00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:07.679 yeah, but but no, I need to still pay them less. 685 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:10.599 Come on, man, we gotta have a better way. Yeah, And 686 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.480 I think that, I mean, some of this comes back to like the 687 00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.159 idea that work should be fun. And I think, you know, on 688 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.360 the face of you think, wow, what fun's good? Why shouldn't work 689 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:24.559 be fun? And then you start interrogating that. I think, actually that 690 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:28.559 doesn't make any sense at all, Like should should being a dog to be 691 00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:30.920 fun? Should being a nurse be fun? I don't think that they we 692 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:36.639 would think that that actually has to be fun. People are giving it should 693 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:40.280 be somewhat maybe fulfilling and not sohing, but why yeah, why does it 694 00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:43.159 have to be fun? And you see this too, I see this all 695 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.440 over corporate America. I used to work at HuffPost before they were bought by 696 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:49.599 AOL. I have friends who work at like Google up in Silicon Valley, 697 00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:53.119 and you go to the campuses and there's like pool tables, tap and no 698 00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:59.199 one's using any of them. By the way, well like a neglected fun 699 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.159 thing. Yeah. I have a story to tell from when I was working 700 00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:07.960 at my first games company, and when we were there at the very start 701 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:10.800 and there were just a very few people. We were in the most boring 702 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:15.079 office park imaginable. There was nothing there at all. It was just you 703 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:21.119 know, just bare walls and computers. But we were having I was gonna 704 00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:22.039 say, we're having fun. I mean, we were having fun, but 705 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:27.119 it was just very fulfilling because we're getting to do some really exciting, really 706 00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:31.079 original game design work and we were able to sort of get it done very 707 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:36.960 quickly. And then after the company had become successful, it moved to East 708 00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:39.239 London and I got the ball pit, and I got the slide, it 709 00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:44.440 got the ping ball table, it got all that stuff, and people were 710 00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.159 saying, wow, this is a secret of having innovation and having happy workforce. 711 00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:52.079 I was like, we did all the work before we had you know, 712 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:53.599 the fun stuff. It's got nothing to do of that. Like, 713 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.519 you know, we don't come to work to go and play ping pong. 714 00:53:57.559 --> 00:54:00.400 We come to work for do cool stuff. I can play the play ping 715 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:05.119 pong at home. Yeah, I'd rather leave here and go home to my 716 00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:07.679 house. But of course that's not the point, right. The point is 717 00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:12.599 how do we keep you at work longer? Well, it's also people not 718 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:19.119 really understanding what makes for satisfying work, you know, and it's not even 719 00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:21.960 just being a game design it. It's just like people want to have an 720 00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:24.199 agency, you know. We know from self determination theory people want to have 721 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:28.880 agency. They want to have they want to feel like what they're doing is 722 00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:32.440 meaningful to other people. But they're not just digging ditches for their reason, 723 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:37.079 right, they want to feel that they're good at it and their skills are 724 00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:40.440 being valued. And I think that you can get that from work that is 725 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:45.239 not fun, that doesn't need a ping pong table, So you see. 726 00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:52.719 I mean another example of gamification of the workplaces and Amazon, Amazon warehouses, 727 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:59.960 fulfillment centers, they have this thing where if you're working at a work stage 728 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:04.960 and there will be a screen in front of you and either you can keep 729 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:09.960 the screen off that's your choice, or you can turn it on and it 730 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:14.159 will show you a game. And this is what we've heard for reports. 731 00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:17.039 At least, Amazon is not very open about these things, and the game 732 00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:21.920 is linked to your performance at your job. So basically, if you're picking 733 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:24.559 you know, items off a conveyor belt and you put it into boxes, 734 00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:30.639 and every time you do that, you'll progress in the game. And so 735 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:35.880 they are all sorts of games. One of them is flying virtual dragons across 736 00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.960 the world and you're competing against other people in the warehouse and around the world, 737 00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:45.719 or there might there's a game called Tamazilla, which is a cross between 738 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:53.840 like Tamagotchi and Pokemon, where by working you very very very slowly capture and 739 00:55:54.159 --> 00:56:05.000 upgrade animals. And the idea is this rewards you for working faster and for 740 00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:08.480 taking shorter breaks and for just being at the company longer. You know. 741 00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:14.800 There's a viral TikTok video that went around showing someone who kind of had surreptitiously 742 00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:20.599 recorded Tamazilla, and they said, this is a feeling when you want to 743 00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:24.239 you're leaving Amazon, but you don't want to leave behind all your virtual pets. 744 00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:30.679 Wow. Powerful, Yeah, I mean it's like a attention mechanism almost 745 00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:34.400 where they're like, well, you're not going to want to leave because you've 746 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:39.199 you've got all your virtual Amazon pets that you've unlocked. And it's such an 747 00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:45.320 interesting thing because, like I say, you don't actually have to play these 748 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:47.960 games. You can turn them off, but then you can't do anything. 749 00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:52.760 It's not like you can watch Netflix on these screens. You know, you 750 00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:55.480 just have to play the game that is designed to make you work harder, 751 00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.559 so and and and supposed to need to make them more fun. And I 752 00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:05.119 just find it fascinating. You know. This is and Amazon knows what they're 753 00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:07.159 doing. They're very smart, you know, and they're trying to gamify their 754 00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:13.480 work work force in this way. How is the word dystopian not anywhere in 755 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:16.679 the title of your book? This is like the thing that just keeps coming 756 00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:24.679 up for me. Well, it's because I still feel hopeful. You know. 757 00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:30.159 It is not surprising to me that people use game design and gamification for 758 00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:32.760 bad purposes. But I'm not about you know, people are like, wow, 759 00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.760 you're a Pollyanna or you're someone who has has abandoned the games in the 760 00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.960 street, right, And It's like, no, I'm still working there, 761 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:44.159 you know, like I still believe in what we're doing. I think we 762 00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:47.079 were doing good stuff, and I think they're more people should make gamification actually 763 00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.639 but they should do it well, and that's hard. It's harder than doing 764 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:55.639 it badly, and it probably makes less money than make it doing it badly, 765 00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.159 but it's far more satisfying, you know, and it's far better thing 766 00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:06.199 to do. So it is a it is a pessimistic book, full seventy 767 00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.679 percent of the book, you know. But um, but I hope it's 768 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:15.519 also inspiring, you know, to people who who won't help people one hundred 769 00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:20.199 percent. I mean, I think that so many of the fundamental concerns in 770 00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.920 this book are not about the tool itself, but about the thing that the 771 00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:29.079 tool is allowing people to do which would have existed without the tool. Of 772 00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:35.159 course, the tool might exacerbate or you know, increase the effectiveness or efficiency 773 00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:42.119 of these choices, but ultimately, you know, the indictment here is not 774 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:47.320 gaming or gamification. The indictment is like these societal priorities, right, and 775 00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:57.039 and the way that we're we're utilizing these social psychology components to to continue along 776 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.559 that route. Yeah, and so you know, I'm curious kind of I 777 00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:04.199 don't know, as we're closing things up, so I don't keep you for 778 00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:07.199 too long. I do close my episodes by asking my guests always the same 779 00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:12.000 two questions, and now at episode four hundred, I don't know what number 780 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.199 I'm on, but it's been years and years and years. I still have 781 00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:19.079 done nothing with these closing bits. I mean they air in the show, 782 00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:21.800 but I always imagine doing some sort of super cut that i've you know, 783 00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:24.599 don't have the bandwidth to do. But before we get to that, those 784 00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:28.679 closing questions, I'm curious, is there anything that we didn't I mean, 785 00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:30.639 obviously there's a ton we didn't touch on, but is there anything that you 786 00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:37.079 would be remiss if we didn't talk about any big takeaways or important I don't 787 00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:42.000 know, messages that you hope that potential readers here. I mean, I 788 00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:45.679 think that I would acknowledge that a lot of these principles are really old, 789 00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:51.039 right. You know. The thing that I always get from people who think 790 00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:54.039 they're very smart is, well, we've had gamification for like centuries, because 791 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.719 we know his X, Y, and Z at example, I'm like, 792 00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:02.159 I'm very well aware that that there are examples of gamification going back quite a 793 01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:10.639 long time. One is different about gamification now is partner capitalism, but mostly 794 01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:17.760 technology is that it is possible to track people's behavior all the time down to 795 01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:23.440 the millisecond down to the millimeter, and to feedback results and instructions that packed 796 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:29.199 them in real time. You just couldn't do that like twenty years ago, 797 01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.519 let alone two hundred years ago. And there is a mass difference in the 798 01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:36.719 effect that it has on behavior. So, yes, we did have these 799 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.480 things before, but no, it is way worse and it's way more powerful 800 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:44.400 than they used to be. Yeah, I think that is such an important 801 01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.840 point, and so so listen, you know, when I close my episode, 802 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:52.760 I always want to know two things. And you may have already touched 803 01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:55.559 on them, or maybe they are you know, a complete left turn from 804 01:00:55.559 --> 01:01:00.480 the conversation that we've been having today, and regardless, it's okay. So 805 01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:06.239 I want you to answer these questions in whatever context feels relevant to you right 806 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:09.239 now in this moment. It could be personal, it could be societal, 807 01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:12.920 it could be global, it could be cosmic. It could have to do 808 01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.559 with your book or not. The first one is when you think about the 809 01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:21.519 future, you know, kind of setting your eyes forward, what is the 810 01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:23.960 thing that is keeping you up the most at night, the thing that you 811 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:31.000 are most concerned worried. Maybe you're finding yourself feeling cynical or pessimistic, you 812 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:34.440 know, what are what are you most concerned about? And then on the 813 01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:37.599 flip side of that to end on a more positive note, which which it 814 01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:42.800 sounds like you are you tend towards where are you finding your hope and your 815 01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:47.159 optimism? What are you kind of genuinely looking forward to? Um. You 816 01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:51.840 know this is going to sound boring, but I am. I'm like so 817 01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:54.480 preoccupied by AI, you know, and not like in that sort of it's 818 01:01:54.519 --> 01:02:01.960 necessarily going to like destroy the world. More the it is really unclear to 819 01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:07.159 me what's going to happen. And and if I were twenty years younger, 820 01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.679 I'd be like, this is so exciting. And now I'm like, I'm 821 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:15.599 I'm not sure what this means for my job and what I do. Like, 822 01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:20.599 um, and I'm a writer, I'm a game designer, I run 823 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:22.480 a company. I think some of those things, it doesn't really have anything 824 01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:25.760 to do with another of those things. I'm like, hmm, I don't 825 01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:30.519 want to become the person who refuses to use a computer, who refuses use 826 01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:34.440 a typewriter, you know, But I also don't want to be the person 827 01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:38.559 who forgets what what they'd like doing. So that's that's kind of for the 828 01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:45.800 first first question. Um for the second question, I am just so excited 829 01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:54.159 by games coming into their own as an art form. Video games. I 830 01:02:54.519 --> 01:03:00.480 think that it is we haven't seen anything like it in any other of art. 831 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:05.760 How vibrant they are, how easy it is for people to make games, 832 01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:08.679 how easy it is for people to go and distribute them, how different 833 01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:14.920 they are from each other. I mean, it is the most exciting art 834 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:21.519 form of this century, and I wish that people would take them more seriously. 835 01:03:21.639 --> 01:03:24.400 I didn't think game designers and gameplayers take themselves very seriously. I think 836 01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:28.119 they just din't think it's a bit silly. But it's like, no, 837 01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:31.760 this is the newest, the best, the most interesting art form, and 838 01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:36.559 yeah, I can't wait to see what happens with it the next in a 839 01:03:36.559 --> 01:03:38.440 few decades. Do you feel and sorry, this is just kind of a 840 01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:44.400 weird turn, but do you feel like seeing games turned into these like big 841 01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:50.760 Hollywood blockbuster media experiences like The Last of Us is doing a kindness to the 842 01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:53.440 video game industry or do you think it's taking away from it. I think 843 01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:55.920 games are bigger than that. It doesn't really matter like, you know, 844 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.679 it's like, you know, Super Mary Brothers made like a billion dollars in 845 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:03.840 the box office. Legends of Zella made that in three days. I mean, 846 01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:09.719 it's just like it. You know, people keep on saying, well, 847 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:12.400 games are bigger than the box office. I mean that's really true. 848 01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:18.320 It just doesn't really register culturally. Registers more because you know, certain parts 849 01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:23.320 of the media are very interested in movies and very interested in TV shows than 850 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:27.519 I understand that. But I think that it doesn't matter for games whether they 851 01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:30.679 get turned into TV shows or not, because they'll do perfectly well anyway. 852 01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:32.519 I mean, it's cool, it's cool, it's interested in that perspective. 853 01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:35.840 Yeah, because I guess I wonder if it's like a depth versus a breadth 854 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:40.719 breadth I can't really say that word clearly. Thing you know, like like 855 01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:45.960 gaming goes deep, but it goes deep with a particular sort of client or 856 01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:49.360 a particular user, whereas there's more breadth with like, you know, Hollywood 857 01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:51.800 stuff. You're seeing it on billboards, and whether people watch it or not, 858 01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.480 there's is more of a cultural awareness. It's easier to watch a two 859 01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:00.760 hour movie than it is to get good at Mario I mean, you have 860 01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:03.199 to get good a mirror. You have to spend probably dozens, if not 861 01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:09.199 hundreds of hours of practice. And that's not people don't have time for that. 862 01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:12.079 You know, most people don't have time for that. Yeah, it's 863 01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:15.800 the same reason people watch the movie but they don't read the book. Yes, 864 01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:20.360 yes, I know. Well everybody the book is you've been played How 865 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:26.079 corporations, governments, and schools use games to control us. All by Adrian 866 01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:29.440 Han. Adrian, thank you so much for being here with us. Thank 867 01:05:29.480 --> 01:05:31.840 you, it's been a pleasure, and everyone listening, thank you for coming 868 01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:35.159 back week after week. I'm really looking forward to the next time we all 869 01:05:35.199 --> 01:05:39.480 get together to talk purity.