WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:11.160 Hey, y'all, welcome to Coming Out Pod. Happy Valentine's Day. If 2 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:16.679 you are listening to this the day that it drops, because it is Valentine's 3 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:20.399 Day, I'm gonna do a I wanted to do a love story queer Root 4 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:24.120 shout out, and this is one that is very personal to me. I've 5 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:28.679 been saving it for special occasion. Shout out to you if your Queer Root 6 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:37.000 is the video for Aerosmith's Crazy. This is a nineties deep cut, but 7 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:42.359 if you've never seen this video, please promise me you will watch it. 8 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:50.399 It stars a young Alicia Silverstone and a young liv Tyler, daughter of Steven 9 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:56.280 Tyler of Aerosmith at the height of their popularity. It weaves a beautiful story 10 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:00.039 of two friends. I'll put friends in heavy air quotes. It is the 11 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:04.879 sapphic music video of all time. It is unreal. It's like they skip 12 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:07.640 school, they go on a road trip. They end up at a strip 13 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:12.560 club and live Tyler's stripping and Alicia Silverstone's wearing a men's suit and a hat 14 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:17.200 and throwing money on the stage. And then they go into a hotel room 15 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:21.200 or a cheap motel room, and it like fades to it's like they close 16 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:26.400 the door. It is very sexy. For the nineties. I used to 17 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:32.439 as a young one, watch TV with a blank VHS in the VCR so 18 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:34.480 that if the video came on, I could record it. This is how 19 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:40.000 starved we were for queer content in the nineties. So just you know, 20 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:45.120 when we say respect our ancestors, I'm the ancestor who sat with a VHS 21 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:49.879 trying to record Aerosmith's video for Crazy. Shout out to you if you are 22 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.840 an elder queer like me and that video was part of your career awakening, 23 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.480 y'all. Continuing with Valentine's say, I am very excited I did. For 24 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:05.239 today's episode, we are going to do something a little different. My guest 25 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.719 is Tina Horn. Hello, Tina, Hi, I'm so happy to be 26 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:17.159 here. I also definitely sat hunch over the TV with a blank VHS tape 27 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:23.719 to record music videos. I did I Did Love, I Did Love Aerosmith 28 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.800 to this day Crying, which is from that roughly that same era of one 29 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:36.759 of my top karaoke songs. And what else did you record like with your 30 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:39.800 what else were you trying to record with a VHS tape or even like off 31 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:46.680 the radio, like, honestly don't remember because that video was like such, 32 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:50.520 that was like my number one thing I was waiting for. And I do 33 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:55.400 remember once I was watching TV with my mom and that video came on and 34 00:02:55.439 --> 00:03:00.000 I couldn't record it because I didn't want her to know. So I was 35 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:06.680 just like, like, so just a fan of butt rock moms. Nothing 36 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.280 to do with the symmetry. God, I'm a Closs fan, mom, 37 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.039 exactly. We were so deprived. People don't understand how, like YouTube is 38 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:23.919 a miracle. You couldn't just watch the video you wanted when you are I'm 39 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:29.800 so it's such a it's such an obnoxious and abiding part of my personality that 40 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:34.240 I am like it was it was. It was better when it was more 41 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:40.919 rare and you participate electric like waiting for a video to come on and then 42 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:46.319 being so excited when it did was like, yeah, there was concentrated more. 43 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.560 I feel like because you didn't see it again. I tried to memorize 44 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:55.199 that video, like, yeah, we were hard up for content, so 45 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:01.520 you took what you could get. Oh God, thank you. I have 46 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.360 been saving that one because it was so special to me and I was like 47 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:09.759 Valentine's Day it is a love story. I think of it as a beautiful 48 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:15.800 love story. I just want the younger folks to appreciate that it existed. 49 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:17.800 Oh my god. But let me okay, let me read your bio. 50 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:24.319 So okay, So Tina. I don't usually like read bios when I introduce 51 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:29.360 people, but there Tina has done so much that I'm going to I might 52 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.079 paraphrase some parts, but here we go. First of all, the title 53 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:38.680 educat tricks that's beautiful? Is that an original or I didn't. I didn't 54 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:43.160 come up with it, but I have adopted it of late because my background 55 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.439 is in the sex industry and I've worked as a dominatrix for a long time. 56 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:51.959 But there's more of an emphasis in my life on using like both one 57 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.480 on one coaching sessions and also consulting for film and television and theater, and 58 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:04.720 also like teaching workshops and like pleasure products stores and also online increasingly, uh, 59 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:12.839 sort of using my knowledge of fetish and fantasy and BDSM and sexuality both 60 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.480 in my work as a fiction and non fiction writer, but then also through 61 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:24.600 you know, giving people the adult education that a lot of us I have 62 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.480 never gotten even as adults. Yes, truly. No. I love educat 63 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:34.279 Tricks because it's it's it's sexier than educator and you're talking and yeah, and 64 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:40.920 I definitely got my start teaching, Like I learned so much of what I 65 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.959 know about BDSM through being a sex worker. And then I also got my 66 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:51.399 start teaching by training like new people who are working in the studios and dungeons 67 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:58.879 that I was working in. So uh yeah, the like educate Tricks sort 68 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.519 of feels like it it describes me the best. Yes, Okay, so 69 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.879 we're gonna go or I'm gonna go through this. Tina Horne is a writer, 70 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:11.279 educatrix, and media maker. Her book of fetish cultural criticism, based 71 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:15.160 on her long running indie podcast, Why Are People Into That, will be 72 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:19.519 out this year. Uh. Tina's the creator slash writer of the sci fi 73 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:25.360 sex rebel comic book series Safe Sex, and the host slash co writer of 74 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:30.279 the phone sex podcast Operator This is already so amazing and I'm only like a 75 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:35.279 third of the way through. Tina's reporting on sexual subcultures has appeared in Rolling 76 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.480 Stone, Playboy, Glamour, Jezebel, and elsewhere. She is the author 77 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:45.639 of two nonfiction books and has contributed to numerous anthologies, including We two essays 78 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.600 on Sex, Work and Survival, which you also co edited Got How do 79 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.040 you find the time to do all this? I'm not even done yet. 80 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:57.759 Tina has lectured on adult entertainment, politics, and queer BDSM identities at universities 81 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:01.120 and community centers. You work as a an on set consultant for theater, 82 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:08.199 film, and television, including the dominatrix scenes of Pose. Good God, 83 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:13.199 That's amazing. You are a LAMBDA Literary Fellow in a V and nominee. 84 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:15.439 Can you let the folks know if they don't what AVAN stands for. It's 85 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:20.000 basically the oscars of porn. There it is. You are the recipient of 86 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:26.040 two Feminist Porn Awards, and you hold an MFA in Creative Nonfiction Writing from 87 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.480 Sarah Lawrence. And that actually might be the queerest part of the whole bio 88 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:36.040 is the Sarah Lawrence name Jack. So that is your career is astounding. 89 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:40.040 So when I said we're gonna do the episode a little bit different, We're 90 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.199 gonna there's so much to focus on that we're gonna do sort of like an 91 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.720 abbreviated origin slash coming out story. But I want us to be able to 92 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.639 fully focus on all the amazing work you do. And so, yeah, 93 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:57.079 in addition to your book based on your podcast that is coming out this year, 94 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:01.120 we're also going to talk about do you prefer comic graphic novel? What 95 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.839 is the right way to describe? Yeah, God, I just realized that 96 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.160 the bio that I sent you doesn't have deprog on it yet, So no, 97 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.519 that's okay, We're going to talk about that as well. So the 98 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:18.079 difference between a comic book and a graphic novel is that a comic book is 99 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.800 you know, it feels more like a magazine. It's like a flop your 100 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:26.800 issue, right, So it's the serialized version of a series. And then 101 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.840 there, you know, increasingly over the past like thirty maybe forty years, 102 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:39.240 there have been more comics made in the medium of a graphic novel that have 103 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.679 never been released in that sort of serialized, floppy form. But then there 104 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:52.039 are also like quite a lot of trade paperbacks that are the collections of the 105 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.320 serialized comic book. So, you know, since we were talking about the 106 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.919 nineties already, I often compare it to like being able to buy the DVD 107 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.759 box set of like season three of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer when you so 108 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:11.919 you might have watched it on you know, the WB yah when it was 109 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:15.600 when it was on TV, but then you you have to own it because 110 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:16.720 if you want to watch it, you can't just fire it up on some 111 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:24.919 streaming service. So yeah, hell yeah, but this is a this is 112 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:31.799 a Buffy the Vampire Slayer podcast now. But but yeah, so so yeah. 113 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.120 But also, comic book is sort of an umbrella term and there's some 114 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:41.759 like there's definitely some like respectability politics involved in the idea of like of like 115 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:48.240 comics are trashy and like grava novels can win the Pultry Prize. Yeah, 116 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:52.840 exactly, exactly, so I I love embracing the high end the low brow. 117 00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:01.000 So so. But but Deprogue is my new comic, and uh and 118 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.360 a previous comic that I did, Save Sex or sf SX, also came 119 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:13.200 out. Both deprog and Safe Sex have come out in Comic Book monthly form, 120 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.000 and I love that it is a little bit of a throwback because you 121 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.399 know, if you are interested in the comic, you got to go to 122 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.919 your exactly you got to call it your comic book store and say I want 123 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:26.320 to put this on my pull list. I'm interested. You know, it's 124 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.480 an indie comics, so they might not be stopping it along with their you 125 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.320 know, DC's and Marvels and whatever. So and then when you read an 126 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:37.080 issue, you know there's going to be a cliffhanger at the end and you 127 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:41.159 got to wait a month to find out what happens next. So it is 128 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.080 a little bit of keeping the magic of the twentieth century, like the serialized 129 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.279 form of storytelling, alive, and it's a fun medium to write in. 130 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:56.039 And can you do you want to give the synopsis of d Prague is everyone's 131 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.679 listened to me, just read your bio, so I don't need to read 132 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.480 more. But do you want to sort of encapsulate what it's about because the 133 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.159 description is incredible. Oh well, thank you, Yes, absolutely so. 134 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.720 Deprog is a detective thriller. So if you're into crime fiction, especially if 135 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.360 you're into like hard boiled detective fiction or like, you know, the sort 136 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.840 of movie equivalent would be like fill noir, mysteries, suspense, all of 137 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:30.440 that kind of stuff. But it's a little different from the conventional detective fiction 138 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.519 because, first of all, the protagonist who is detective is a dyke a 139 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.679 leather dike. Specifically, I also identify as a leather dike, so that's 140 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:41.799 a word I am allowed to use. We've had that conversation. When it 141 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:46.000 comes to promoting the book. I'm like, oh God, I can't imagine 142 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.960 how tense like publishers get. And I'm like, oh, and Deats guy 143 00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:00.480 who is our publisher, is so awesome and reallys to my perspective on queer 144 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:07.200 language. But I also I recognize that our situations where people want to be 145 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:13.080 respectful, it's not it's not even respectability, it's actual respect where Yeah, 146 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.600 that's not my word to use, And I'm like, well, I'm sort 147 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.000 of loaning it to you so that you can accurately describe my books, so 148 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:24.759 you can introduce me on this panel or whatever exactly. But yeah, So 149 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.080 Tate Debs is the protagonist of Deeprogue, and she is a leather dyke and 150 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.799 she was raised in a cult and she escaped it and now she lives in 151 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.039 la and works in the back of a video store. Again this is really 152 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:45.480 the theme of today is the nineties throwback. So she works in the back 153 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:50.559 of a video store in like the back room where like you know, adult 154 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:56.759 films and like sexploitation used to be kept and she specializes in rescuing and deprogramming 155 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.759 people who have been in cults, thus the title Deep. So uh yeah, 156 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.960 the first story arc, which has four issues, starts coming out in 157 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.679 March. If you're listening to this a little later in twenty twenty four or 158 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.080 somewhere in the future, you'll you will be able to get the equivalent of 159 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.159 the the DVD box set of the season that the trade paperback of the first 160 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.039 four issues you know, from from your local bookstore. But for now, 161 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:33.000 if you're listening and you want to read about interdimensional mystic cults, there's a 162 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:39.039 little bit of satire of southern California hippie culture. Uh, there's a lot 163 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:48.759 of like super stylized like yeah, like a queer twist on noir. And 164 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:54.720 yeah, it's definitely four grown ups. You know, there's there's some there's 165 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.759 a gender queer fem fae tale. You know, there's some BDSM sect parties. 166 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.759 Uh, there's uh, you know, definitely a lot of depictions of 167 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:11.919 of queer uh, sexual tension and consummation, you know, invented by people 168 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.960 who are not just tokenizing the idea of queer sexuality, but actually have one 169 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.960 of those, and I should shout out. I want to shout out the 170 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.159 the art team. So Lisa Still is the co creator and and illustrator, 171 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:33.840 and then Gab contras Is is the colorist and and Danny uh did the covers. 172 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.559 So you know it's an all women identified team. Uh and uh Yeah, 173 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:46.279 I'm I'm very proud of it. I think that your listeners would really 174 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.399 like it. So check it out. It's sounds amazing. And I've never 175 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.559 had the opportunity to ask this question before, but I'm so curious. So, 176 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.639 when you're the writer and someone else is the illustrator and these sex scenes 177 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.200 need to happen, is that a discussion between the two of you of Like, 178 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.360 here's what I'm imagining, Like, is it like talking to a police 179 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.399 sketch heart, It's kind of like adding no, no, no combine, 180 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:16.440 Yeah, no, no cops were involved. No. That that's an awesome 181 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:24.639 question, you know, I always so. First of all, my background 182 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:31.320 coming to genre fiction writing in the comic book world is, as I've mentioned, 183 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.799 coming from the sex industry, and you know, directing and producing porn 184 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:43.080 and performing in porn, mostly in niche, kinky and queer uh and mostly 185 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:50.480 indie porn. And you know, so in my personal life and in my 186 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:58.480 professional life, very dedicated to how can I describe it, I'm dedicated to 187 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.919 depictions of queer sexuality, and like I'm dedicated to them being explicit. I've 188 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.679 dedicated it to them being like accurate, which I think sounds a little clinical, 189 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:15.440 but yeah, I mean, you know, authentic but also highly stylized 190 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.519 because it's entertainment, right, And I also am a big fan of like 191 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:23.399 maximalism and camp. So you know, like, uh so, like authenticity 192 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:29.759 is not always sure, okay, gotcha? Yeah, yeah, it can 193 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:33.799 be a little bit more complicated. Yes, yes, heightened exactly, like 194 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.600 larger than life. I think I think it's really horny to be larger than 195 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:42.399 life. But uh but yeah, but in terms of de Prague, it 196 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:48.120 was so awesome to work with Lisa Stirrel because, uh, you know, 197 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:55.600 in the past, I've worked with artists where I had to create an actual 198 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:02.639 NSFW dropbox folder with like screen us from yes, the one that I've directed. 199 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:07.599 Yeah, because I've worked with people who like don't understand fisting or don't 200 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.759 know where to put a vibrator on uh, on certain bodies or people who 201 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:19.640 who don't know what like bondage actually looks like or don't actually you know, 202 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:26.599 don't know what what makes a high heel of fetish heel like. So but 203 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.920 I didn't have any So I didn't have any of those problems with Lisa, 204 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.440 Sir Lisa really, you know, and I don't want to blow up her 205 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:41.160 her spot. Either she was drawing from her own experience or she's just really 206 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:42.920 good at her job. And but we we did talk about a lot of 207 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.680 references, and we always have. I always like to use mood boards with 208 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.359 the with the artists that I work with, both for pop culture references and 209 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:56.680 then also like aesthetic references fashion settings. It can be really fun to kind 210 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:03.079 of make like fantasy spaces based on on real spaces, and then the artists 211 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:07.839 always put their own spin on it. And you know, I always compare 212 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:15.039 it to like making music. If you are jamming in a band, you 213 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:19.319 know, you might like write a guitar riff, but then you if you're 214 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:23.400 if you're Steven Tyler, you know, you might have some lyrics and then 215 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:30.480 what is the name of the riff? Right? No, no, don't 216 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:36.079 be embarrassed. Rock and roll all night party every day, that's case. 217 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.440 But yeah, you know it's like you kind of go into the room with 218 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:48.119 your ideas and then that's the sort of alchemy of collaboration is maybe it's something 219 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.240 that you would never have made as a solo artist, you make in collaboration 220 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.440 with with your group. So that's really fun. And then in terms of 221 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.079 with with Deep, I got to be I also I trusted Lisa, so 222 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:07.160 I got to be like, here are the things that are important to me 223 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.160 that we see, uh, here are the things that I think are really 224 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:17.359 played out in depictions of queer sex. Okay, that's so interesting. Yeah, 225 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:23.720 like let's try to depict things that maybe people don't get to see as 226 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:30.240 much of, like hand sex is a big one for me, and so 227 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.839 cool. That's so cool that we're at a point in history where things can 228 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.720 feel like, oh, the market's oversaturated on this, Like what a beautiful 229 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:45.079 problem to have. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, so it was it was 230 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.359 fun to that sounds amazing collaborate on this one. God, what a great 231 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:56.839 job. What just a more fun thing to do than like data entry. 232 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:02.400 Okay, that is incredible. Now we we got one of your identifiers out 233 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:08.119 there. But how do you identify perhaps more broadly or more specifically, Mm, 234 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:15.559 Yeah, well, I definitely identify as a dyke, and I much 235 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:22.000 prefer the word dyke to other words that people have called me. You know, 236 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:32.759 queer was definitely the first word that gave me that ding feeling, you 237 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:37.960 know that like that words for me, and you know, I'm hardly the 238 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.519 first, and I hope I won't be the last person to say that. 239 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.400 Like, you know, the reason for that is that queer kind of comes 240 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:48.400 with like middle fingers out as an identifier, right, Like it's a very 241 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.480 in my in my mind, is a very punk way to identify, and 242 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:56.160 punk is a very big part of my like value system and my identity. 243 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:07.680 And yeah, it's like it's a signifier that says, inquire further or also 244 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.359 if I don't feel like it again the middle, going back to the middle, 245 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:17.880 things like I don't owe you, I owe you nothing. And I 246 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.599 have always been bisexual, and I know that bisexual can be kind of a 247 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:27.119 contentious term that has yeah, gone through a lot of changes, but like 248 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:36.240 my back my my bisexuality and like my attraction has always encompassed trans and gender 249 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:40.240 not conforming people about kinds. So so you know, but but like, 250 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:48.559 bisexuality continues to be important to me because there are queer people who uh, 251 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.920 you know, mostly date or have sex with people of one gender, or 252 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.599 people with certain kinds of genitalia, or people who are part of certain communities 253 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:03.839 or cultures, and like I am someone who has had sex with and dated 254 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:11.599 sis and trans men and women, and again like gender nonconforming people, like 255 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:18.440 all across the spectrum. So both from my experience and my continued attraction romantically 256 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:25.880 and sexually, like it's important for me to say bisexual because sometimes I don't 257 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:30.319 know. The example I always give is like I work a lot with pleasure 258 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.640 products, meaning sex toys, right, So I'll be talking about a dildo 259 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:40.480 and I'll be like comparing a dildo to like an attached co or a slash 260 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.160 coock or whatever, like whatever term you want to use, and I'll be 261 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:47.640 like, oh, this is how this product feels like in comparison to that. 262 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:48.680 And sometimes I'll be talking to people and they'll be like, well, 263 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.359 I haven't had a cock inside me since nineteen seventy three, and I'm like, 264 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:57.799 that's great for you. And also in those moments, I mean I 265 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:02.720 have had experiences like that where I feel a bit alienated, where the implication 266 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:07.440 is that the fact that like attached cocks are not like the thing of the 267 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.039 past for me is like in sure, I would be like how cool that 268 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.000 you can speak to that experience and like like, oh, thank you, 269 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:22.799 that's great. That very it's very convenient in that way. Yeah, but 270 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.240 uh, but it is also yeah, like it's my authentic self. I 271 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:32.279 love that you use dyke and bisexuales. Is that something that do people give 272 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.559 you any grief over that as well? Like do you bump up against folks 273 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.640 having feelings? That is a really great question. I I don't bump up 274 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:48.440 against it too much because I I think that the again, the community and 275 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:57.440 cultures that I have uh built and surrounded myself with and contribute to are not 276 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:03.880 the types to see those as a contradiction in terms uh and I I mean, 277 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.759 I think that part of it is that like my I guess, like 278 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:14.759 another identifier that is a part of that is definitely like being non monogamous and 279 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:19.480 so the like like like regardless and being a slot. I definitely identify as 280 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:29.559 a sloot. So so my you know, my my history and like the 281 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.920 potential of my future and and yeah, and then just like the present of 282 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:40.880 who I surround myself with is is very yeah inclusive. Uh, not to 283 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:47.640 produce signal, but it's like I happen to be to be inclusive and uh 284 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:56.240 and so but like dyke is, to be honest with you, it's kind 285 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:06.640 of my gender identity is probably I mean and and like sincerely like my my 286 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:15.160 most the people that I am most often attracted to. And also my sexuality 287 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:18.920 is so connected to community, like not just because of being a slut, 288 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:25.599 but because you know, I'm I have definitely like sex parties and play parties 289 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:33.480 are a big part of my life and and you know, even even like 290 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:40.359 events at leather bars, which I haven't like mentioned, I haven't sort of 291 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.559 described like what leather means to me yet, but like, like leather is 292 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.079 a part of this too, because it's sort of like a term meaning you're 293 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:59.480 kinky, and also you're devoted to things like art and education and mutual aid 294 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.599 and the politics of that. No idea, leather is like kind of a 295 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:11.000 signifier of those that's really cool in general. I mean, some people might 296 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:15.119 say I'm into leather, and they're just trying to indicate like I've got the 297 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.599 chaps, like yeah, and I can be more expansive. I feel like 298 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:23.480 I've heard that about like kink as an identity in general, but like leather, 299 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:29.960 that's very that's really cool. Yeah so but I yeah, so I 300 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:38.240 guess that like dyke feels like a very strong part of my my gender identity. 301 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:42.640 And uh but then yeah, I mean I guess I'm kind of out 302 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:49.240 here. I mean it is like the hardest thing about like not about trying 303 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:55.839 to like shoehorn myself into dating apps, like there's so many different kinds of 304 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:03.640 dating apps now, but like sort of trying to like cruise for cock when 305 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:10.160 your dyke identified is like is confusing for people, but then it's like but 306 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:15.039 then when you find the right one, they're like I get it. Yeah, 307 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:19.079 Yeah, let's see. I have I talked about all my identities. 308 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.200 Well, sex worker is a big part of my identity, and like just 309 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:32.200 to break that down a bit, like sex work is work and a big 310 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:36.680 part of my life. Is also being a part of the sex worker rights 311 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:42.359 movement and being devoted to labor rights and the fight for the decriminalization of sex 312 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:48.240 work, which is just the removal of bad laws related to the sex industry, 313 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:55.039 you know, in the interest of bodily autonomy and what actually helps us 314 00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.200 keep each other safe. And so even though my like the time that I've 315 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:07.799 spent in the sex industry has waxed and waned over the years, you know, 316 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:12.039 my like sex work is very much a political identity in even in the 317 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.640 sense that like, since I have been out and this is the coming out 318 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:22.279 podcast, you know, since I am out in for example, like you 319 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.720 know, like we were talking about Deeprague, right, Like, it's not 320 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:32.519 necessarily relevant to the fact that I write like detective fiction, like genre comics 321 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:38.279 that I've worked as a dominatrix, even though there are some like themes. 322 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:44.920 Yeah, but like, but you know, I come to like writing comics 323 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.640 from from being a podcaster and a nonfiction writer and a journalist, and like 324 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.480 we've talked about being an educat trix and I've you know, used the platform 325 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:57.240 of Tina Horn, which was sort of a platform that I developed in the 326 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:03.000 sex industry to continue to do that work and also to like leverage my privilege 327 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:08.519 as a white person and as a SIS person to like be like, I 328 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.400 have more privilege than a lot of my comrades in the sex industry do, 329 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.839 and so for me to be out, you know, I hope that I 330 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:25.640 can continue to like contribute to the destigmatization of sex work, which hopefully can 331 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:30.519 continue to go hand in hand with decriminalization of sex work. And so you 332 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:37.640 know, even if I wanted to say or you know, even if I 333 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.119 felt like okay, you know, there are other people who work more currently 334 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.480 in the industry, and they, you know, should be the ones to 335 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.480 identify as sex workers like more than me. In some ways, like the 336 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.359 fact that I'm out also means that, like I deal with stigma of like 337 00:29:52.400 --> 00:30:00.240 potentially not being able to get jobs, get like housing discrimination. You know, 338 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.400 sex workers are not a protected class. So like there's all kinds of 339 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:08.359 horror stories of things that could of or of like opportunities that I could miss 340 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:15.279 out on because people don't want to be associated with, uh, with people 341 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:19.640 who you know, are so brazen about having done what I've done. And 342 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:23.920 and there are like emotional risks too, in like being on this podcast and 343 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:29.200 talking to you, like, there are people in the world who might be 344 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.039 listening to this and recognize my voice and be like, you know and hear 345 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:41.079 all these things that we're talking about and like be really upset or like deny 346 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:47.640 me all kinds of things that I need or want. So so for that 347 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:51.319 reason, sex worker is an abiding part of my identity as well, and 348 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.160 I think that just about covers who I am. Well, if you realize 349 00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.079 you've forgotten any we'll just double back because I'm always no, I this is 350 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.519 this is incredible. So okay, in terms of we'll talk, I'll call 351 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:10.079 it origin story because comments, So, yeah, where where did you grow 352 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:15.519 up? What was family? Like? Like what what? What? I 353 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:22.039 want to hear? I want to hear how it all started? Well, 354 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:27.680 so I grew up in a really small town and uh it was it was 355 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:33.960 a very homophobic place. It's a little better now, but uh, it 356 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:41.920 was not a friendly place for me to be a queerdo And I knew that 357 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:49.440 I was, Like as soon as I was aware of attraction to anyone, 358 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:56.359 I knew that I was attracted to not everyone, but uh that like the 359 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.359 capacity to be attracted to Yeah, and like, you know, my the 360 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:05.839 ways, the ways that I was discerning did not have to do with gender. 361 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.240 They had to do with you know, well all kinds of other things. 362 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.599 But but yeah, I mean even continuing to talk about the nineties, 363 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.279 because I was a teenager in the nineties. Uh, you know, I 364 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:25.079 always say that, like as soon as I knew that I had a crush 365 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.680 on Fox Mulder, I knew I had a crush on Dana Scully, Like 366 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.039 they just like the best expt. Yeah, that show is so by That 367 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:38.359 is one of the most bisexual shows of all time. Yeah, and like 368 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.880 and the and the like tension between them was very like charged for my like 369 00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:47.799 little hormonal self. So but like but but then you know their sexual tension. 370 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.640 Yeah, it felt bisexual in a way because I felt involved with it, 371 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:54.279 because I was like, well, my attraction to Gillian Anderson is like 372 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:59.400 a huge part of what makes this so hot and all that. Also, 373 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:05.119 you know, monsters, which clearly like sexuality and horror got mixed up for 374 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:08.799 me somewhere there along the line for so many queer people. I just talked 375 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:13.960 about this a few episodes ago, about the links between horror and queerness and 376 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.279 the idea of like humanizing the monster that you're afraid of the monster are just 377 00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:22.400 like all these layers oh totally. I mean, yeah, one of the 378 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.839 one of my favorite classes to teach these days actually is called Monster Smash, 379 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:34.240 and it is about like a sort of guide to both like literary and mythological 380 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:39.920 history of how monsters have been sexualized from that, you know, mermaids to 381 00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:45.720 vampires, to vampires. My god, this this society and vampires. We 382 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:51.319 cannot stop sexualizing them. We refused to, We patently refused it. I 383 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:55.640 don't know why we would stop now too late to silent way. Also, 384 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.440 anyway, and this is Nora cal Is this right? Did you grow up 385 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.759 in northern California? Okay, that's right? Yeah, yeah, okay, 386 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:13.960 so that's I guess, Like, yeah, so I knew I I you 387 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.119 know, and I didn't really have the word queer then, oh god, 388 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:22.960 yeah no, And so I wasn't and I had, you know, it's 389 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.400 interesting. I don't talk about this a lot, but I'm happy to talk 390 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:37.960 to you about it right now. Like I definitely, like I there are 391 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:45.039 some people who like really just like get the gay vibe from me. Like, 392 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.960 ever since I was very young, people have been like, there's something 393 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:55.039 like a little off about you. And I have a very vivid memory of, 394 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.760 you know, some friends who weren't really very of friends, like girls 395 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.199 I was hanging out with who were like, you know, we've been talking 396 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:07.639 about it, and we think that you might be a lesbian, and I 397 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:12.840 just and I just really and I just really think that you know, the 398 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.239 question of like queer versus lesbian, a dike versus lesbian, or even what 399 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:22.559 we were talking about in terms of bisexuality, like I honestly think that that 400 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.840 that was like a root, like a like a repulsion route for me or 401 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:29.760 I was just like, I don't know if that word will ever recover for 402 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:36.440 me from from that moment, because it was it was just like so it 403 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:39.280 was so derisive, and it also very much felt like we're putting you in 404 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:44.119 a box, and it also felt like, you know, it also felt 405 00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:51.280 inaccurate because you know, it felt like what we're accusing you of is hating 406 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:55.119 men. And I was sure that I didn't hate men, but I was 407 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.519 I was sure, you know, and by the way, like you know, 408 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.800 not all queer women hate men, uh, like that's you know, 409 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.960 and whatever they were, they were stupid kids, and so was I. 410 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:15.760 But but I just I think that, like, yeah, the word lesbian 411 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:22.840 always felt like like something that people were trying to put on me. So 412 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:28.239 so and my response to that was a little bit because because I knew that 413 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:35.440 I was attracted to all different kinds of genders and and because there were not 414 00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.760 a lot of out queer people, uh in my hometown. I mean I 415 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.639 was like friends with all of them, and because I don't know, my 416 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.360 experience of that was like I need us to be friends. I don't want 417 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.280 us to fuck and like fuck that up for for whatever reason. Not that 418 00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:00.239 not that there's anything wrong with that, like please, you know, but 419 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:06.400 at that like forming you were forming community instinctually, like from a super young 420 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:12.159 age. It feels like that's really yes, I guess, so yeah and 421 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:17.079 yeah, and so I think that because other teenagers, you know, my 422 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.800 peers, were like trying to put me in a box, I was like, 423 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:28.559 I'll show you by sucking all the dicks. That's an effective way to 424 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:35.559 combat being accused of being lesbians. Like would a lesbian do this? Yeah, 425 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:45.320 right exactly. So I had, you know, a lot of my 426 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:52.639 like early sexual experiences and partners versus men, and I had an alright time 427 00:37:52.719 --> 00:38:00.599 with them. And honestly, it wasn't even their their gender, or their 428 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.679 or their physiology that was frustrating to me about them and I talk about this 429 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.960 a bit in my book Where Are People Into That? Out in June Pride 430 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:17.400 Season twenty twenty four from his Shed Press. Uh, it was it was 431 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:22.400 more like I knew that I wanted I knew that I really liked sex, 432 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:28.519 and I wanted to do it all the time. Uh. And and I 433 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:34.440 wanted like more like more variety and like more like interesting like different kinds of 434 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:37.760 sex. And you knew that from like a young age. It's not like 435 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.840 your like puberty age, is she You were just like, well, I 436 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:47.840 would like on the earlier side, like I like, yeah, I started 437 00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:52.679 menstruating when I was ten, so yeah, that's really early. Yeah. 438 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:59.039 Yeah. So I think that that probably had an effect on me in the 439 00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:06.880 sense that I was this like seething massive hormones, uh, waiting for everybody 440 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.719 else to become a soething massive heart. You're like get to my level. 441 00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:15.719 Yeah yeah, and yeah, I mean I think that it's it's sometimes I 442 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:22.360 uh see that as an Sometimes I see that as an explanation for what we 443 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:27.559 were saying about horror and like all the reasons that I'm like so obsessed with 444 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:34.079 pop culture and like quite actually interested in the relationship between pop culture but also 445 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:38.000 like literature and music and sexuality. Is that I think I was like putting 446 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:45.719 a lot of my sexual energy into my like solo sex life, which you 447 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:52.599 know, was very important to me, uh and active from my age and 448 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:58.400 like continues to be like an important part of my my sexuality jerking off. 449 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:04.480 But yeah, I think that then I was like putting my sexuality in like 450 00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:08.760 displacing it onto like everything but people, because I don't know people. Oh 451 00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:14.519 that's so people were sort of boring to me. Yeah, I can say 452 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:20.159 that. But then I started to be interested in people, and but ye, 453 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.960 people got more interesting maybe as they mature, I guess, I guess. 454 00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:28.960 So, yeah, I certainly did. Are you lowered your standards? 455 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:30.199 You were just like, they're not going to get any better. I gotta 456 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.400 I gotta lower the bar if I'm gonna and yeah people, Yeah exactly, 457 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.639 And and then you know, it's it's not quite so. I became a 458 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:45.320 sex worker in my mid twenties, and I started doing sex work in my 459 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:51.039 mid twenties, And it's not quite accurate to say that sex made me gay, 460 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.119 because I like knew that that was there in all the ways that we've 461 00:40:55.159 --> 00:41:01.639 already been talking about. But but sex work in the Bay Area and this 462 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:07.679 is very important, for like, sex work in the Bay Area in the 463 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:22.880 early mid aughts was a time and place that that I could really explore and 464 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:30.880 expand my sexuality outside of the commercial transactions that I was having. So it's 465 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.519 very important to me to like emphasize that. Like, again, I can't 466 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:39.039 say it enough. Sex work is work, and sex work was the job 467 00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:44.559 that I was doing, and it is labor, and uh, you know, 468 00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:47.480 sometimes it was fun, uh and sometimes I was learning things about myself 469 00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:52.360 and sometimes I was even getting off. But like the point of it is 470 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.159 that I was at my job, and it's important to emphasize that, especially 471 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:01.719 because I have a lot of privileged relative to other people in the industry to 472 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:07.599 even like see the job as something like gotcha, Like it's like exciting and 473 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:12.840 cool and like there for me to self actualize. But the truth no matter 474 00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.079 was especially since there was this sort of like feminist porn scene and queer porn 475 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:22.000 like genre in the Bay Area at the time, like I was sort of 476 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:29.960 getting opportunities to make money that were that like did connect me to a queer 477 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:35.079 community that I had like never really had before because all of the like all 478 00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.840 of the communities that I encountered up until then were more like sort of binary 479 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.599 gay, you know, and I sort of again, I like knew that 480 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:50.000 I wasn't a lesbian, and like I felt a lot of kinship with a 481 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:54.960 lot of fags. But you know, there was in my experience, there 482 00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:01.519 was like sort of more like division at the time. So then absolutely so 483 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:07.000 then queer was like, like I said, ding, no, this is 484 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.519 all Yeah. I mean I've had so many guests who talk about not even 485 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:15.119 hearing the word bisexual until like their twenties or until they got to college, 486 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:20.039 like and like just gay straight alliance, like that's what. Yeah, there 487 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:25.559 was not a lot of gray area in any sense. I think, Oh 488 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:29.719 god, I mean, I'll give you I'll give you a picture of what 489 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:35.760 my of what my small town was like. We tried to start a gay 490 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:42.639 straight alliance when I was a senior in high school, and they wouldn't let 491 00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:49.440 us, and they were like, yeah, why don't you do something that's 492 00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:53.599 like that but is like not that, And so you know, we took 493 00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:58.400 the opportunity. We like brainstormed a few things and and we finally came up 494 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:04.920 with tolerance clubs. Wow, So we had tolerance club and the way we 495 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.280 sort of justified it was like we can raise awareness about like all different kinds 496 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:13.239 of hate crimes and like all different kinds of bigotry. But you know, 497 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:21.760 in retrospect that was bullshit. That's just so fucking rue it all. Oh, 498 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:27.159 can I ask about like what family stuff? Are you hiding all of 499 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.719 this from your family? Like identity, who you're hanging out with eventually, 500 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.960 like sex work you're doing, or like what was their sort of what was 501 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.679 the family buy. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't really hiding anything. 502 00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:53.960 I think that my it was very important to me to individuate from my family 503 00:44:54.039 --> 00:45:02.039 really young, and I think that we just I don't know, I guess 504 00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:07.760 it it felt regular at the time, but I guess like in retrospect, 505 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:14.440 I think that everybody knew that I was a weirdo, and so they just 506 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:20.920 kind of like I was very fortunate that everybody just kind of gave me the 507 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:27.920 space to be weird and you know, even yeah, seriously, that's as 508 00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:32.760 good. Yeah, I mean, and even when when you asked me to 509 00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:37.360 come on this podcast, I was like, I don't, I don't really 510 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:40.480 have a coming out story, Like I don't really have a coming out story 511 00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:46.159 to my to my family. I never had to like come out to my 512 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:57.320 friends. Uh. It just was sort of like by the time I was 513 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:07.039 saying this is my girlfriend, or like this is my boyfriend who I introduced 514 00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:14.199 to you as my girlfriend a year ago, or like uh oh, I'm 515 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:21.480 making money as a dominatrix, or like you know, any anything else, 516 00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:24.440 I think everybody was just kind of like, yeah, that sounds right, 517 00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:32.480 that's as I love. I do. Actually again, in why are people 518 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:35.480 into that? The book, I do tell a story, and I won't 519 00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.519 spoil it, but I do tell the story of running into my high school 520 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:45.880 boyfriend who I had like fallen out of touch with, and I had been 521 00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:57.079 I was like in my uh like early late twenties, and and I had 522 00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.320 been working as a professional dominatrix for a couple of years. And he asked 523 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:04.760 me what I was up to, and I said working as a professional dominatrix. 524 00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:08.480 And he said I always knew you'd get into that stuff. And I 525 00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:15.679 was like, what what what is that? Like, what do you even 526 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:21.960 what does that even mean? Uh? Yeah, So I sort of unpacked 527 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:24.440 that a little bit more in the book if you want to know what some 528 00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:29.000 of my thoughts about it were. But I I, uh, it's it's 529 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.679 also like part of where the the name why are People Into That? Came 530 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:36.559 from was sort of the idea of like, like what does what does it 531 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:40.639 mean to be into something? And like how much like derision is implied by 532 00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:45.840 that? Just like even even like we were talking about the definition of leather, 533 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:51.760 right, like people talking about being into leather. It's sort of I 534 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.000 don't know, I feel like there's a bit of a like stigma attached to 535 00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:00.400 uh, like there's this thing that has like seduced you somehow, and that 536 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.639 like and that like when you when you like mature, you'll get over it 537 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.320 or something. I'm not quite not quite sure I had. I talked to 538 00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:13.880 my first ever furry guest about a month ago, and we talked about a 539 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:20.559 lot a lot of these things in terms of yeah, just the the judgment 540 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:25.119 and all and all of that. Yeah, man, people people just continue 541 00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:31.119 to be so fascinated by furries. Yeah, they are so in terms of 542 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:37.000 when you went into sex work because of what we were talking about with the 543 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:40.000 stigmas and all that was that I love how just like the stigma's and all 544 00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:46.559 that easal berucy. Was that something that you were just like dad said on 545 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:50.159 like no, this is happening. Or did you sort of wrestle with that 546 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:55.159 decision for a while because you were concerned about like all of the potential doors 547 00:48:55.159 --> 00:49:00.000 that might close or judgment that you might face. Like that's such a because 548 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.480 it's sounding like you did not And I want to phrase this correctly, and 549 00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:06.960 I bet I won't, but my heart's in the right place. It sounds 550 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:14.679 like you did not quote unquote have to go into sex work for financial necessity 551 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:20.599 or like this it feels like there was a choice there. Am I phrasing 552 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.360 this at all? Well? You know, I mean like do we have 553 00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:28.760 to work? Do we have to do we have to go into work? 554 00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:34.719 You know? I mean like I'm I'm also not the first person to you 555 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.519 know, point out like like is there like consensual labor under capitalism? Like 556 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:45.079 I needed to Yes, Okay, okay, okay, I know what you 557 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:49.880 mean. And there are there are some people who you know, are doing 558 00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:52.639 what we might call survival sex work, and like it is and it is 559 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.559 it is true, And I don't need to be glib about the fact that, 560 00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:01.639 like, there were a lot of things about my identities and about who 561 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:06.320 I am that give me. I like to talk about it in terms of 562 00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:10.239 social mobility, right, like, like I I needed a job, and 563 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:13.960 sex work was a job that was available to me, in a job that 564 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.079 I chose, and a job that by and large I really have liked. 565 00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:27.199 Uh and uh like because of a lot of my privileges that I've talked about, 566 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:31.960 including pursuing like, you know, I have a modern literature BA and 567 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.920 I have an MFA from Sarah Lawrence now, which I am just in eternal 568 00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:43.360 debt uh about. You know, I didn't nobody, nobody paid for that 569 00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:46.760 degree for me, and no one ever will. I'm hoping that the society 570 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:53.920 will collapse before I have. Yeah, they really are. That's one positive, 571 00:50:53.960 --> 00:51:00.360 that's one upside of the collapse of civilization. But but yeah, uh 572 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:07.239 So, even though I feel frustrated that those jobs have not or let me 573 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:16.519 rephrase, even though I feel very frustrated that the degrees that I have have 574 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:24.400 not given me the economic power that I hoped that they would, like, 575 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:31.840 I do have social mobility as a result of my education privilege, which is 576 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:36.840 related to my white privilege, which is related to all kinds of things and 577 00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:46.079 so like, in that sense, that is all a part of the context 578 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:51.519 of my choice to become a sex worker. But in terms of judgment, 579 00:51:52.760 --> 00:52:01.599 I think I was probably naive about that part. I think that because I 580 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:06.239 I kind of had an attitude towards my family that if they were going to 581 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:15.400 judge me about that, then I would just be like bye, and and 582 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:22.400 I and I had a couple of friends. I've had a couple of friends 583 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.920 over twenty years concern told me about being a sex worker. But for the 584 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:34.079 most part, I have great taste in people, and everybody has been supportive 585 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:37.760 of me, including the moments that things have you know, one of the 586 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:42.039 things that's really important about about sex worker rights is the right to talk about 587 00:52:42.199 --> 00:52:47.039 having had a bad day and not have it like be seen as a sign 588 00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:52.559 that no one should ever have labor rights in the sex industry, which is 589 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:58.280 unfortunately how things go. So, you know, I am so fortunate to 590 00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:05.000 have friends who I can be like today was not so great at work, 591 00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:13.920 or today was really bad, And that's how we keep each other safe, 592 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:22.280 you know, emotionally, physically, in all the ways. So uh yeah, 593 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:29.639 and I have experienced stigma since then in the ways that I've kind of 594 00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:38.679 talked about, like, uh, feeling like there are moments that I might 595 00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:46.400 not have gotten opportunities because people are you know, they say that sex sells, 596 00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:53.000 but actually, like if there's one thing that people love more than money, 597 00:53:53.039 --> 00:54:00.800 it's being scared of things, especially especially Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 598 00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:06.000 yeah, I feel like maybe like the idea of sex sells, but then 599 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:13.880 actual sex can really break a sale. Yeah, and so much of you 600 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:17.639 know, and like yeah, and sex for me, you know, is 601 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:27.039 like inherently like even when like I'm a SIS woman, and like even when 602 00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:32.320 my clients are CIS men who like have a like SIS had attraction to me 603 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:37.599 or like a normative attraction to me, and that's is like part of the 604 00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:45.400 the reason that they're hiring me. Like there's just something kind of gay about 605 00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:51.239 everything that I do. And so I think that I think that for sure, 606 00:54:52.199 --> 00:55:00.039 like sometimes people are freaked out and get like a no, homo. 607 00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:08.039 Yeah it is true that when it is, it is you know, biologically 608 00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:13.840 true that if you stick you're dicking me, it does instantly make you gay. 609 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.599 So yeah, well, I but I hope that's a selling point for 610 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:22.480 people as opposed to a deterrent. So I mean, it's your sure, 611 00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:31.000 husband's sure has been amazing. So yeah, I want to like gentlely guide 612 00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:36.360 the conversation, but I really want you to be able to talk about whatever 613 00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:39.679 you like because you have done so so much. But I guess, like, 614 00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:45.079 how how long were you doing sex work and what sort of segued you 615 00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:50.000 out of that into like well you I mean, my god, when you 616 00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:55.400 start actually working in like the porn film industry, like what, like, 617 00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:01.400 that's that's huge. I'd like being a woman like directing in that is that 618 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:08.039 like being a woman directing in the regular film industry, Like they give you 619 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:13.960 more awards. Oh that's great, that's much better than yeah, I mean 620 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:21.400 yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, in terms of coming 621 00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:28.840 out. The thing that's interesting about porn is that it is a in some 622 00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:34.000 ways a less criminalized part of the sex industry, but it's also more visible, 623 00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:40.559 right, so, like my and especially with the Internet changing the way 624 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:45.559 that it has over the past twenty years, you know, facial recognition technology 625 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:52.119 and and all kinds of things. I mean, even like even just the 626 00:56:52.159 --> 00:57:04.159 fact that so many tech platforms try to blend or synthesize different things that you've 627 00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.599 done, and a lot of them are related to financial transactions. A lot 628 00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.000 of them are related to communication, right, Like, So what I'm trying 629 00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:15.559 to say is that I have to play whack a mole all the time with 630 00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.840 like tech platforms that I use. And by tech platforms, I'm talking about 631 00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:29.480 Gmail, I'm talking about like talking about it like you know, Meta and 632 00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:35.119 uh, you know, and and things owned by Elon Musk et cetera, 633 00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.800 et cetera, like you know, or things owned by Jeff Bezos where it's 634 00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:44.440 like, uh, like all of a sudden, I will see like my 635 00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:50.400 professional name next to my actual address, or I will see like you know, 636 00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:59.400 or I will see my uh my financial information with you know, like 637 00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:04.400 next to like a picture of my ass. You know. It's like all 638 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:07.960 of all of that stuff is is so out there, and we're like trying 639 00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:12.400 to figure out like security and technology, but like in order to do that, 640 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:20.480 there's also so much like surveillance. Yeah, yeah, so that I 641 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:24.079 mean, I just I had dinner recently with an old friend who you know, 642 00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:34.559 I've like fucked on camera, and you know, she works in a 643 00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:42.960 field now where she would really prefer not to be out about her background in 644 00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:50.639 the sex industry, and she did a she did a facial recognition search for 645 00:58:50.679 --> 00:59:00.400 herself and it was just all there was just a lot of porn and so 646 00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:02.440 you know, now she's like trying to see if she can like get it 647 00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:07.360 all taken down. But like it's yeah, so fucking rough because we didn't. 648 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:13.320 How are you supposed to have foresight when these things don't exist. It's 649 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:19.519 like you need like a degree and like engineering, do you have any like 650 00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:23.599 we this was not. It's very frustrated right now. Yeah, and you 651 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:29.159 know, and you don't have to be ashamed of your past in order, 652 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:32.840 but you should. It should be your decision if that is also yeah, 653 00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:37.280 because it's about it's about it's about safety, and it's about boundaries, and 654 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:46.199 it's also about what part of what hasn't you know, people's attitudes about boundaries 655 00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:52.639 have not yet caught up with the reality of tech security and surveillance, right, 656 00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:57.079 So like said, yeah, so and you know, we we you 657 00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:06.599 see this in stories all the time where where like elementary school teachers are non 658 01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:14.960 consensually outed when someone discovers their they're porn. They're porn. Yeah, exactly, 659 01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.000 they're only fans the right. So it's like, only fans is legal. 660 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:22.800 It's it's legal. It's legal to take nudes and post them on only 661 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:28.119 fans and profit off of them. It's it's legal to do that. And 662 01:00:28.679 --> 01:00:34.719 it's also perfectly reasonable for adults to do that or have done it in the 663 01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:40.599 past, and then to also be able to spend quality time with children, 664 01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:46.519 teach children, be employed to like work with children, right, Like having 665 01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:52.159 that differentiation and those boundaries is actually like a very important part of both working 666 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:57.039 with children and working in the sex industry. Many like, you know, 667 01:00:57.079 --> 01:01:00.840 I would go, so I think it's safe to say most peopleeople who work 668 01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:05.800 in both of those industries like have that distinction, right, And you know, 669 01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:07.880 nobody nobody is wondering, like, well, I shouldn't say nobody is 670 01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:14.000 wondering what teachers are doing in their bedrooms, because it depends on the teacher 671 01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:17.840 and in the bedroom. But people are. But you know, like most 672 01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:23.119 reasonable people understand that that we're not the same person at work that we are, 673 01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:28.239 or that we're not the same person at like a job that we had 674 01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:34.760 your teams oh my god, yeah, you know, And so the fact 675 01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:39.880 that people can be non consensually outed and then lose their job or lose that 676 01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:43.559 hasing, to lose custody to their kids. I mean, that's not something 677 01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:49.199 that I've personally experienced, but it's part of what my like movement organizing work 678 01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:52.440 and even my journalism work like. And part of the reason I'm even bringing 679 01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:57.039 it up today is like to raise awareness about the fact that that happens, 680 01:01:57.079 --> 01:02:00.079 and to hope that people who are listening to this who might not have considered 681 01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:06.079 that even under the sort of like rubric of what it means to be out, 682 01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:12.639 you know, can can consider that and think about how they can contribute 683 01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:16.599 to destigmatizing like even what it means to be naked on the internet. And 684 01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:21.639 the last thing that I'll say about it for now is that, like, 685 01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:36.000 this is intensely a queer issue because laws that police and surveill sexuality in public 686 01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:43.119 spaces like are always used to police and surveil queer art, queer education, 687 01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:51.599 uh, you know, and like to see anything queer to like deem it 688 01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:57.199 to be obscene, which then means that like it's not you know, it's 689 01:02:57.239 --> 01:03:04.920 it's not legally protected, and so you know, sex worker rights are queer 690 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.000 rights. And the decriminalization of all different kinds of sex work is a queer 691 01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:12.599 issue for like so many reasons that I also talk about in my work a 692 01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.239 lot, but you know, for the queer listeners who might not see how 693 01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:23.480 their liberation is tied up in sex work liberation, Like you know, it 694 01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:28.639 is full stop, and like one of the reasons that it is is that 695 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:32.239 it's about your freedom of speech and bodily autonomy. And if they're coming for 696 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.039 whoors, they're coming for queer's next. They're just like testing out like you 697 01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:43.760 know what and why, and they all be very specific, is like tech 698 01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:51.599 corporations and the federal government and and like you know, morality and media, 699 01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.840 like you know, the religious right who like believes that oh hell yeah, 700 01:03:54.880 --> 01:04:00.000 we're banning books again, Like we've gone that far back into the like let 701 01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:05.360 alone modern technology. It's like we're banning analog yeah yeah, and all and 702 01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:12.039 all these like awful all these anti trans bills and all of this book banning. 703 01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:18.559 You know, it's it's about policing all of us out of existence. 704 01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:21.480 So we have to we have to fight that, and the only way that 705 01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:27.840 we're going to fight it is through solidarity between different movements said yes, thank 706 01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:34.840 you. That is a key element that I don't feel is going super well. 707 01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:43.360 Sometimes I'll lave it at that. I want to make sure we get 708 01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:47.920 to talk about why are people into that the podcast and now upcoming book. 709 01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:51.599 But so, yeah, when did you start doing that? What was it? 710 01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:57.159 Just like you had collected so many experiences that you were like, I 711 01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:02.360 gotta put this somewhere, like like did people ask you so many times like 712 01:05:03.079 --> 01:05:08.559 questions about like what's the weirdest thing of clients ever asked? Like what was 713 01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:14.440 the origin of you creating this podcast? Yes, it was totally all of 714 01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:19.719 that, and you know, it really was and it and it was a 715 01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:25.719 bit of a So I started wire people into that the podcast in twenty thirteen, 716 01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:31.960 and it was a little bit of uh, in the interest of figuring 717 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:36.559 out, like, how can I take all of this knowledge and different kinds 718 01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:44.320 of knowledge that I've gained from working in the sex industry and like create media 719 01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:49.800 that is accessible to all people and or anyone, you know, wherever you 720 01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:55.840 listen to podcasts. And yeah, and so every episode of the podcast, 721 01:05:55.960 --> 01:06:00.599 I would have a different guest and they would choose a topic red to sex, 722 01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:04.039 king, gender, and love and you know, to your point, 723 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:11.679 like, because of all of the relationships that I'd built, I knew so 724 01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:16.360 many people who were already very comfortable talking about sex, and so so you 725 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:24.000 know, we could kind of cut through a lot of the bullshit and and 726 01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:29.679 like get down to maybe conversations that we felt like people weren't having enough. 727 01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:32.000 That was that. That's often you know, the prompt that I would give 728 01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:38.280 to people in my podcast is like, talk about this in a way that 729 01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:43.199 you are always frustrated that you can't talk about it else. I love that. 730 01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:46.519 That harkens back to what you said at the very beginning about talking to 731 01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:51.800 your illustrator and saying or being like, let's show these things that don't get 732 01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:56.159 shown en up. That's exactly. That's a really cool like through line. 733 01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:02.159 I love that. Yeah. And so then uh, I got a great 734 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:11.639 literary agent and we developed the book version of We developed a pitch for the 735 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:15.000 book version of the podcast, and like there's a version of the of the 736 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:20.719 book that we could have done where we that was conversation based, like like 737 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:26.880 my show is like your show is uh or interview based, but I I 738 01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:31.920 kind of really wanted to take the opportunity to you know, practice my favorite 739 01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:38.400 form of writing, which is cultural criticism and the personal essay, and to 740 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:48.000 kind of treat like all of these different fetish topics like a sort of like 741 01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:55.079 cultural object that uh, that the book that the book is analyzing. And 742 01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:58.880 so that's why we ended up calling it a cultural it's wired people into that, 743 01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:04.199 a cultural investigation of kink. So it's it's kind of a book about 744 01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:11.519 how we talk about fetishes and how we talk about BDSM, and how we 745 01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:17.760 talk about fantasies and how you know, you know, and there's a little 746 01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:25.399 bit of practicality of like, so if you're interested in this kind of sex 747 01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:31.920 or this kind of fetish play, like, how do you get started? 748 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:36.840 How do you get into it? If you have a partner who is into 749 01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:40.319 it and you don't really understand it? Like, what are some ways that 750 01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:45.520 we can might create compassion in order to like because yeah, I feel like 751 01:08:46.119 --> 01:08:49.880 the more I find that the more different ways that you can think about a 752 01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:59.279 topic, the better your sex life is. To be honest, and yeah, 753 01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:05.319 so the book, uh has a chapter on feet, and it has 754 01:09:05.399 --> 01:09:12.239 a chapter on group sex, It has chapter on fisting. Uh, it 755 01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:18.640 has one of the most popular episodes of the podcast was an episode about cannibalism 756 01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:28.239 fantasies, So I had to do a chapter on that. Interesting and yeah, 757 01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:31.600 so you know, if you want to know more you can. You 758 01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:36.159 made a field guide for fetishes. It sounds like that's so cool, like 759 01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:42.239 a resource. That's really cool. Yeah, thank you. I'd like to 760 01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:44.560 think so, I mean, there are a lot of books, a lot 761 01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.880 of great books out there that are like, here's the definition of this, 762 01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:55.359 and here's like here, here's some suggestions, here's some prompts of things that 763 01:09:55.399 --> 01:09:59.600 you can do, and this book has that, but it's it's a little 764 01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:02.079 bit more expansive than that. It's you know, and it's there are only 765 01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:09.520 the chapters are longer rather than like, you know, we could have done 766 01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:15.000 a version of it that was like fifty different fetishes have been shorter, but 767 01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:21.039 but they're sort of they're more like deep dive explorations. Uh. Yeah, 768 01:10:21.079 --> 01:10:28.159 so I'm I'm I'm excited to see what people think. And it's a it's 769 01:10:28.199 --> 01:10:33.479 definitely it's a very gay book. It's a very queer book, but like 770 01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:40.039 it's also it's it's like, you know, by us for everyone, is 771 01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:45.680 what I like to say, it's it's a queer it's a queer perspective on 772 01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:54.640 on things that you know, hopefully we'll also hopefully we'll be interesting and helpful 773 01:10:55.239 --> 01:11:00.560 to queer people of all kinds, but like also interesting and helpful to straight 774 01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:05.159 people. It's not oh I bet yeah, I for the every guy. 775 01:11:05.640 --> 01:11:13.840 I don't know. I literally just thought of that, So I like that 776 01:11:14.079 --> 01:11:18.720 there is there still time to change the subtitle, stop the presses. And 777 01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:23.680 I think that I think that they somebody else might own that. So okay, 778 01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:30.600 fair, fair assessment. Just the stuff you do is so incredible and 779 01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:34.760 you're so I was gonna say, like comfortable with it, but then that 780 01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:40.520 implies that like there's like you shouldn't because that feels like a backhanded like compliment, 781 01:11:40.640 --> 01:11:43.079 you know what I mean. But it's just like I'm someone who, 782 01:11:43.239 --> 01:11:46.560 like by nature, I'm just like so neurotic and awkward that I'm just always 783 01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:51.159 really impressed when someone is like just very like do you feel like is that 784 01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:55.600 something you're kind of like born with? Because you know, you came from 785 01:11:55.600 --> 01:12:00.239 this like small, like not queer friendly town, and yet you're your degree 786 01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:04.680 of just like comfort at discussing these things and doing these things, like I'm 787 01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:09.039 just so impressed with it, and I you know, I grew up in 788 01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:13.399 New York City? Why am I so? So sometimes I'm like, is 789 01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:17.880 that in your genetic coding, like your comfortability with subculture and stuff like that, 790 01:12:18.520 --> 01:12:25.119 or or can you improve upon it? I mean, well, it's 791 01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:31.079 interesting that you bring up New York because, uh, my like family roots 792 01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:36.960 are in Brownsville, in East New York, in Brooklyn, and I lived 793 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:45.520 in New York for a decade. Sure, and uh and so I if 794 01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:49.199 I had to answer that question, I mean, I like grew up in 795 01:12:49.239 --> 01:12:54.960 this small town. But I was like constantly, you're and you know, 796 01:12:55.039 --> 01:12:59.760 and I'm very much Also, we haven't talked about this identity, but I 797 01:12:59.800 --> 01:13:04.359 for sure identify it as an erotic Jew And so yeah, that's why that's 798 01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:11.039 what I was getting at for me, So like maybe you know, like 799 01:13:11.199 --> 01:13:15.159 part of the ease with talking about this stuff, I mean, it really 800 01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:19.439 just comes from from a lot of experience. But I do think that like 801 01:13:20.279 --> 01:13:29.279 the comfort with being like a very like performative and the like theatrical person might 802 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:38.640 be related to those like New York Jewish roots and and very loud conversations. 803 01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:45.800 Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely absolutely, and and yeah and and like 804 01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:51.520 an interest in in subcultures and countercultures. To me, that feels very connected 805 01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:58.640 to my queerness. Yeah, you know, and like even the monstrosity stuff 806 01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:01.199 that we were talking about earlier, Like I'm sort of like, yeah, 807 01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:08.840 you think I'm a monster, Like I'll show you a monster, Like, 808 01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:15.359 yeah, what if lesbian can do this? Fuck? I love it? 809 01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:19.479 Okay, So where can people find you? Uh? You can shout out 810 01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:26.840 all your social media where they can purchase your works or pre order as it 811 01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.159 were. But yeah, just plug anything and everything. Yeah, I would 812 01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:39.000 love people to check out Deprogue the comic book and wire People Into That the 813 01:14:39.479 --> 01:14:44.720 book book. You can pre order both of those. Deprog is published by 814 01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:47.680 Dead Sky, and wire People Into That is going to be published by Hashett. 815 01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:54.319 If you want a one stop shop for finding out about all of that 816 01:14:54.359 --> 01:14:58.560 stuff and more, you can go to tinahorn dot net. That's t I 817 01:14:58.720 --> 01:15:02.560 n a h o r n dot net. Uh, you can send up 818 01:15:02.560 --> 01:15:09.000 for my newsletter there you know, that just goes out whenever I have something 819 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:16.680 to announce, so no spami spam. You can follow me on Twitter and 820 01:15:17.319 --> 01:15:25.079 uh and Instagram, which also but I'm more active on Instagram at t I 821 01:15:25.239 --> 01:15:30.920 N A h O R N s A s s uh. That is where 822 01:15:31.479 --> 01:15:36.800 I'm at. And yeah, if you wanna subscribe to wire people into that. 823 01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:42.000 The podcast. The podcast has been on hiatus while I finished the book, 824 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:48.239 but uh, hopefully it will be back this year. That's it. 825 01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:54.279 You started it in twenty thirteen and and you think you're still gonna God, 826 01:15:54.359 --> 01:16:00.479 that's amazing. That is incredible. Yeah, that's that's goals. The kids 827 01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:03.000 say, so, yeah, I think that's it. I think that's where 828 01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:06.880 you can find me. Thanks for having me. Oh my god, thank 829 01:16:06.920 --> 01:16:12.319 you. This is far less interesting. Where you can find me at Lauren 830 01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:16.079 Flanns on Twitter, which is the exact way to describe that platform, and 831 01:16:16.159 --> 01:16:19.920 yet I'm addicted to it. You can also find me on Instagram at Lauren 832 01:16:20.039 --> 01:16:26.159 Underscore Flans. The podcast is at coming Out Pod. The hashtag is hashtag 833 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:30.079 coming out Pod. Shout out to my incredible patrons, Carmel Kaz Simone, 834 01:16:30.119 --> 01:16:34.600 Cayenne, Michelle l Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran Smiley, Aaron 835 01:16:34.600 --> 01:16:39.880 Mitchell, Diego, Hernandez and Beyonclexa dot com and y'all. It's Valentine's Day. 836 01:16:40.039 --> 01:16:45.560 You know, the greatest act of love you can perform for a podcast 837 01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:49.560 is rating at five stars. I got there is rating at five stars on 838 01:16:49.640 --> 01:16:56.399 Apple Podcasts or iTunes or Spotify. You can now give ratings on Spotify Mobile 839 01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:01.600 and five stars is a lovely way to so bright the holiday, Tina, 840 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:06.520 this was such a fantastic conversation. I cannot wait to follow you and all 841 01:17:06.520 --> 01:17:12.359 the things and read and intake all of your things. That sounded weird, 842 01:17:12.359 --> 01:17:15.159 but you understand what I mean. And yeah, thank you so much. 843 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:19.039 This was a real pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This 844 01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:23.800 is a really fun conversation. All right, thank you all, and I 845 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:29.880 will talk to you next week. Bye.