Hey, y'all, welcome to Coming Out Pod. Happy Valentine's Day. If
you are listening to this the day that it drops, because it is Valentine's
Day, I'm gonna do a I wanted to do a love story queer Root
shout out, and this is one that is very personal to me. I've
been saving it for special occasion. Shout out to you if your Queer Root
is the video for Aerosmith's Crazy. This is a nineties deep cut, but
if you've never seen this video, please promise me you will watch it.
It stars a young Alicia Silverstone and a young liv Tyler, daughter of Steven
Tyler of Aerosmith at the height of their popularity. It weaves a beautiful story
of two friends. I'll put friends in heavy air quotes. It is the
sapphic music video of all time. It is unreal. It's like they skip
school, they go on a road trip. They end up at a strip
club and live Tyler's stripping and Alicia Silverstone's wearing a men's suit and a hat
and throwing money on the stage. And then they go into a hotel room
or a cheap motel room, and it like fades to it's like they close
the door. It is very sexy. For the nineties. I used to
as a young one, watch TV with a blank VHS in the VCR so
that if the video came on, I could record it. This is how
starved we were for queer content in the nineties. So just you know,
when we say respect our ancestors, I'm the ancestor who sat with a VHS
trying to record Aerosmith's video for Crazy. Shout out to you if you are
an elder queer like me and that video was part of your career awakening,
y'all. Continuing with Valentine's say, I am very excited I did. For
today's episode, we are going to do something a little different. My guest
is Tina Horn. Hello, Tina, Hi, I'm so happy to be
here. I also definitely sat hunch over the TV with a blank VHS tape
to record music videos. I did I Did Love, I Did Love Aerosmith
to this day Crying, which is from that roughly that same era of one
of my top karaoke songs. And what else did you record like with your
what else were you trying to record with a VHS tape or even like off
the radio, like, honestly don't remember because that video was like such,
that was like my number one thing I was waiting for. And I do
remember once I was watching TV with my mom and that video came on and
I couldn't record it because I didn't want her to know. So I was
just like, like, so just a fan of butt rock moms. Nothing
to do with the symmetry. God, I'm a Closs fan, mom,
exactly. We were so deprived. People don't understand how, like YouTube is
a miracle. You couldn't just watch the video you wanted when you are I'm
so it's such a it's such an obnoxious and abiding part of my personality that
I am like it was it was. It was better when it was more
rare and you participate electric like waiting for a video to come on and then
being so excited when it did was like, yeah, there was concentrated more.
I feel like because you didn't see it again. I tried to memorize
that video, like, yeah, we were hard up for content, so
you took what you could get. Oh God, thank you. I have
been saving that one because it was so special to me and I was like
Valentine's Day it is a love story. I think of it as a beautiful
love story. I just want the younger folks to appreciate that it existed.
Oh my god. But let me okay, let me read your bio.
So okay, So Tina. I don't usually like read bios when I introduce
people, but there Tina has done so much that I'm going to I might
paraphrase some parts, but here we go. First of all, the title
educat tricks that's beautiful? Is that an original or I didn't. I didn't
come up with it, but I have adopted it of late because my background
is in the sex industry and I've worked as a dominatrix for a long time.
But there's more of an emphasis in my life on using like both one
on one coaching sessions and also consulting for film and television and theater, and
also like teaching workshops and like pleasure products stores and also online increasingly, uh,
sort of using my knowledge of fetish and fantasy and BDSM and sexuality both
in my work as a fiction and non fiction writer, but then also through
you know, giving people the adult education that a lot of us I have
never gotten even as adults. Yes, truly. No. I love educat
Tricks because it's it's it's sexier than educator and you're talking and yeah, and
I definitely got my start teaching, Like I learned so much of what I
know about BDSM through being a sex worker. And then I also got my
start teaching by training like new people who are working in the studios and dungeons
that I was working in. So uh yeah, the like educate Tricks sort
of feels like it it describes me the best. Yes, Okay, so
we're gonna go or I'm gonna go through this. Tina Horne is a writer,
educatrix, and media maker. Her book of fetish cultural criticism, based
on her long running indie podcast, Why Are People Into That, will be
out this year. Uh. Tina's the creator slash writer of the sci fi
sex rebel comic book series Safe Sex, and the host slash co writer of
the phone sex podcast Operator This is already so amazing and I'm only like a
third of the way through. Tina's reporting on sexual subcultures has appeared in Rolling
Stone, Playboy, Glamour, Jezebel, and elsewhere. She is the author
of two nonfiction books and has contributed to numerous anthologies, including We two essays
on Sex, Work and Survival, which you also co edited Got How do
you find the time to do all this? I'm not even done yet.
Tina has lectured on adult entertainment, politics, and queer BDSM identities at universities
and community centers. You work as a an on set consultant for theater,
film, and television, including the dominatrix scenes of Pose. Good God,
That's amazing. You are a LAMBDA Literary Fellow in a V and nominee.
Can you let the folks know if they don't what AVAN stands for. It's
basically the oscars of porn. There it is. You are the recipient of
two Feminist Porn Awards, and you hold an MFA in Creative Nonfiction Writing from
Sarah Lawrence. And that actually might be the queerest part of the whole bio
is the Sarah Lawrence name Jack. So that is your career is astounding.
So when I said we're gonna do the episode a little bit different, We're
gonna there's so much to focus on that we're gonna do sort of like an
abbreviated origin slash coming out story. But I want us to be able to
fully focus on all the amazing work you do. And so, yeah,
in addition to your book based on your podcast that is coming out this year,
we're also going to talk about do you prefer comic graphic novel? What
is the right way to describe? Yeah, God, I just realized that
the bio that I sent you doesn't have deprog on it yet, So no,
that's okay, We're going to talk about that as well. So the
difference between a comic book and a graphic novel is that a comic book is
you know, it feels more like a magazine. It's like a flop your
issue, right, So it's the serialized version of a series. And then
there, you know, increasingly over the past like thirty maybe forty years,
there have been more comics made in the medium of a graphic novel that have
never been released in that sort of serialized, floppy form. But then there
are also like quite a lot of trade paperbacks that are the collections of the
serialized comic book. So, you know, since we were talking about the
nineties already, I often compare it to like being able to buy the DVD
box set of like season three of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer when you so
you might have watched it on you know, the WB yah when it was
when it was on TV, but then you you have to own it because
if you want to watch it, you can't just fire it up on some
streaming service. So yeah, hell yeah, but this is a this is
a Buffy the Vampire Slayer podcast now. But but yeah, so so yeah.
But also, comic book is sort of an umbrella term and there's some
like there's definitely some like respectability politics involved in the idea of like of like
comics are trashy and like grava novels can win the Pultry Prize. Yeah,
exactly, exactly, so I I love embracing the high end the low brow.
So so. But but Deprogue is my new comic, and uh and
a previous comic that I did, Save Sex or sf SX, also came
out. Both deprog and Safe Sex have come out in Comic Book monthly form,
and I love that it is a little bit of a throwback because you
know, if you are interested in the comic, you got to go to
your exactly you got to call it your comic book store and say I want
to put this on my pull list. I'm interested. You know, it's
an indie comics, so they might not be stopping it along with their you
know, DC's and Marvels and whatever. So and then when you read an
issue, you know there's going to be a cliffhanger at the end and you
got to wait a month to find out what happens next. So it is
a little bit of keeping the magic of the twentieth century, like the serialized
form of storytelling, alive, and it's a fun medium to write in.
And can you do you want to give the synopsis of d Prague is everyone's
listened to me, just read your bio, so I don't need to read
more. But do you want to sort of encapsulate what it's about because the
description is incredible. Oh well, thank you, Yes, absolutely so.
Deprog is a detective thriller. So if you're into crime fiction, especially if
you're into like hard boiled detective fiction or like, you know, the sort
of movie equivalent would be like fill noir, mysteries, suspense, all of
that kind of stuff. But it's a little different from the conventional detective fiction
because, first of all, the protagonist who is detective is a dyke a
leather dike. Specifically, I also identify as a leather dike, so that's
a word I am allowed to use. We've had that conversation. When it
comes to promoting the book. I'm like, oh God, I can't imagine
how tense like publishers get. And I'm like, oh, and Deats guy
who is our publisher, is so awesome and reallys to my perspective on queer
language. But I also I recognize that our situations where people want to be
respectful, it's not it's not even respectability, it's actual respect where Yeah,
that's not my word to use, And I'm like, well, I'm sort
of loaning it to you so that you can accurately describe my books, so
you can introduce me on this panel or whatever exactly. But yeah, So
Tate Debs is the protagonist of Deeprogue, and she is a leather dyke and
she was raised in a cult and she escaped it and now she lives in
la and works in the back of a video store. Again this is really
the theme of today is the nineties throwback. So she works in the back
of a video store in like the back room where like you know, adult
films and like sexploitation used to be kept and she specializes in rescuing and deprogramming
people who have been in cults, thus the title Deep. So uh yeah,
the first story arc, which has four issues, starts coming out in
March. If you're listening to this a little later in twenty twenty four or
somewhere in the future, you'll you will be able to get the equivalent of
the the DVD box set of the season that the trade paperback of the first
four issues you know, from from your local bookstore. But for now,
if you're listening and you want to read about interdimensional mystic cults, there's a
little bit of satire of southern California hippie culture. Uh, there's a lot
of like super stylized like yeah, like a queer twist on noir. And
yeah, it's definitely four grown ups. You know, there's there's some there's
a gender queer fem fae tale. You know, there's some BDSM sect parties.
Uh, there's uh, you know, definitely a lot of depictions of
of queer uh, sexual tension and consummation, you know, invented by people
who are not just tokenizing the idea of queer sexuality, but actually have one
of those, and I should shout out. I want to shout out the
the art team. So Lisa Still is the co creator and and illustrator,
and then Gab contras Is is the colorist and and Danny uh did the covers.
So you know it's an all women identified team. Uh and uh Yeah,
I'm I'm very proud of it. I think that your listeners would really
like it. So check it out. It's sounds amazing. And I've never
had the opportunity to ask this question before, but I'm so curious. So,
when you're the writer and someone else is the illustrator and these sex scenes
need to happen, is that a discussion between the two of you of Like,
here's what I'm imagining, Like, is it like talking to a police
sketch heart, It's kind of like adding no, no, no combine,
Yeah, no, no cops were involved. No. That that's an awesome
question, you know, I always so. First of all, my background
coming to genre fiction writing in the comic book world is, as I've mentioned,
coming from the sex industry, and you know, directing and producing porn
and performing in porn, mostly in niche, kinky and queer uh and mostly
indie porn. And you know, so in my personal life and in my
professional life, very dedicated to how can I describe it, I'm dedicated to
depictions of queer sexuality, and like I'm dedicated to them being explicit. I've
dedicated it to them being like accurate, which I think sounds a little clinical,
but yeah, I mean, you know, authentic but also highly stylized
because it's entertainment, right, And I also am a big fan of like
maximalism and camp. So you know, like, uh so, like authenticity
is not always sure, okay, gotcha? Yeah, yeah, it can
be a little bit more complicated. Yes, yes, heightened exactly, like
larger than life. I think I think it's really horny to be larger than
life. But uh but yeah, but in terms of de Prague, it
was so awesome to work with Lisa Stirrel because, uh, you know,
in the past, I've worked with artists where I had to create an actual
NSFW dropbox folder with like screen us from yes, the one that I've directed.
Yeah, because I've worked with people who like don't understand fisting or don't
know where to put a vibrator on uh, on certain bodies or people who
who don't know what like bondage actually looks like or don't actually you know,
don't know what what makes a high heel of fetish heel like. So but
I didn't have any So I didn't have any of those problems with Lisa,
Sir Lisa really, you know, and I don't want to blow up her
her spot. Either she was drawing from her own experience or she's just really
good at her job. And but we we did talk about a lot of
references, and we always have. I always like to use mood boards with
the with the artists that I work with, both for pop culture references and
then also like aesthetic references fashion settings. It can be really fun to kind
of make like fantasy spaces based on on real spaces, and then the artists
always put their own spin on it. And you know, I always compare
it to like making music. If you are jamming in a band, you
know, you might like write a guitar riff, but then you if you're
if you're Steven Tyler, you know, you might have some lyrics and then
what is the name of the riff? Right? No, no, don't
be embarrassed. Rock and roll all night party every day, that's case.
But yeah, you know it's like you kind of go into the room with
your ideas and then that's the sort of alchemy of collaboration is maybe it's something
that you would never have made as a solo artist, you make in collaboration
with with your group. So that's really fun. And then in terms of
with with Deep, I got to be I also I trusted Lisa, so
I got to be like, here are the things that are important to me
that we see, uh, here are the things that I think are really
played out in depictions of queer sex. Okay, that's so interesting. Yeah,
like let's try to depict things that maybe people don't get to see as
much of, like hand sex is a big one for me, and so
cool. That's so cool that we're at a point in history where things can
feel like, oh, the market's oversaturated on this, Like what a beautiful
problem to have. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, so it was it was
fun to that sounds amazing collaborate on this one. God, what a great
job. What just a more fun thing to do than like data entry.
Okay, that is incredible. Now we we got one of your identifiers out
there. But how do you identify perhaps more broadly or more specifically, Mm,
Yeah, well, I definitely identify as a dyke, and I much
prefer the word dyke to other words that people have called me. You know,
queer was definitely the first word that gave me that ding feeling, you
know that like that words for me, and you know, I'm hardly the
first, and I hope I won't be the last person to say that.
Like, you know, the reason for that is that queer kind of comes
with like middle fingers out as an identifier, right, Like it's a very
in my in my mind, is a very punk way to identify, and
punk is a very big part of my like value system and my identity.
And yeah, it's like it's a signifier that says, inquire further or also
if I don't feel like it again the middle, going back to the middle,
things like I don't owe you, I owe you nothing. And I
have always been bisexual, and I know that bisexual can be kind of a
contentious term that has yeah, gone through a lot of changes, but like
my back my my bisexuality and like my attraction has always encompassed trans and gender
not conforming people about kinds. So so you know, but but like,
bisexuality continues to be important to me because there are queer people who uh,
you know, mostly date or have sex with people of one gender, or
people with certain kinds of genitalia, or people who are part of certain communities
or cultures, and like I am someone who has had sex with and dated
sis and trans men and women, and again like gender nonconforming people, like
all across the spectrum. So both from my experience and my continued attraction romantically
and sexually, like it's important for me to say bisexual because sometimes I don't
know. The example I always give is like I work a lot with pleasure
products, meaning sex toys, right, So I'll be talking about a dildo
and I'll be like comparing a dildo to like an attached co or a slash
coock or whatever, like whatever term you want to use, and I'll be
like, oh, this is how this product feels like in comparison to that.
And sometimes I'll be talking to people and they'll be like, well,
I haven't had a cock inside me since nineteen seventy three, and I'm like,
that's great for you. And also in those moments, I mean I
have had experiences like that where I feel a bit alienated, where the implication
is that the fact that like attached cocks are not like the thing of the
past for me is like in sure, I would be like how cool that
you can speak to that experience and like like, oh, thank you,
that's great. That very it's very convenient in that way. Yeah, but
uh, but it is also yeah, like it's my authentic self. I
love that you use dyke and bisexuales. Is that something that do people give
you any grief over that as well? Like do you bump up against folks
having feelings? That is a really great question. I I don't bump up
against it too much because I I think that the again, the community and
cultures that I have uh built and surrounded myself with and contribute to are not
the types to see those as a contradiction in terms uh and I I mean,
I think that part of it is that like my I guess, like
another identifier that is a part of that is definitely like being non monogamous and
so the like like like regardless and being a slot. I definitely identify as
a sloot. So so my you know, my my history and like the
potential of my future and and yeah, and then just like the present of
who I surround myself with is is very yeah inclusive. Uh, not to
produce signal, but it's like I happen to be to be inclusive and uh
and so but like dyke is, to be honest with you, it's kind
of my gender identity is probably I mean and and like sincerely like my my
most the people that I am most often attracted to. And also my sexuality
is so connected to community, like not just because of being a slut,
but because you know, I'm I have definitely like sex parties and play parties
are a big part of my life and and you know, even even like
events at leather bars, which I haven't like mentioned, I haven't sort of
described like what leather means to me yet, but like, like leather is
a part of this too, because it's sort of like a term meaning you're
kinky, and also you're devoted to things like art and education and mutual aid
and the politics of that. No idea, leather is like kind of a
signifier of those that's really cool in general. I mean, some people might
say I'm into leather, and they're just trying to indicate like I've got the
chaps, like yeah, and I can be more expansive. I feel like
I've heard that about like kink as an identity in general, but like leather,
that's very that's really cool. Yeah so but I yeah, so I
guess that like dyke feels like a very strong part of my my gender identity.
And uh but then yeah, I mean I guess I'm kind of out
here. I mean it is like the hardest thing about like not about trying
to like shoehorn myself into dating apps, like there's so many different kinds of
dating apps now, but like sort of trying to like cruise for cock when
your dyke identified is like is confusing for people, but then it's like but
then when you find the right one, they're like I get it. Yeah,
Yeah, let's see. I have I talked about all my identities.
Well, sex worker is a big part of my identity, and like just
to break that down a bit, like sex work is work and a big
part of my life. Is also being a part of the sex worker rights
movement and being devoted to labor rights and the fight for the decriminalization of sex
work, which is just the removal of bad laws related to the sex industry,
you know, in the interest of bodily autonomy and what actually helps us
keep each other safe. And so even though my like the time that I've
spent in the sex industry has waxed and waned over the years, you know,
my like sex work is very much a political identity in even in the
sense that like, since I have been out and this is the coming out
podcast, you know, since I am out in for example, like you
know, like we were talking about Deeprague, right, Like, it's not
necessarily relevant to the fact that I write like detective fiction, like genre comics
that I've worked as a dominatrix, even though there are some like themes.
Yeah, but like, but you know, I come to like writing comics
from from being a podcaster and a nonfiction writer and a journalist, and like
we've talked about being an educat trix and I've you know, used the platform
of Tina Horn, which was sort of a platform that I developed in the
sex industry to continue to do that work and also to like leverage my privilege
as a white person and as a SIS person to like be like, I
have more privilege than a lot of my comrades in the sex industry do,
and so for me to be out, you know, I hope that I
can continue to like contribute to the destigmatization of sex work, which hopefully can
continue to go hand in hand with decriminalization of sex work. And so you
know, even if I wanted to say or you know, even if I
felt like okay, you know, there are other people who work more currently
in the industry, and they, you know, should be the ones to
identify as sex workers like more than me. In some ways, like the
fact that I'm out also means that, like I deal with stigma of like
potentially not being able to get jobs, get like housing discrimination. You know,
sex workers are not a protected class. So like there's all kinds of
horror stories of things that could of or of like opportunities that I could miss
out on because people don't want to be associated with, uh, with people
who you know, are so brazen about having done what I've done. And
and there are like emotional risks too, in like being on this podcast and
talking to you, like, there are people in the world who might be
listening to this and recognize my voice and be like, you know and hear
all these things that we're talking about and like be really upset or like deny
me all kinds of things that I need or want. So so for that
reason, sex worker is an abiding part of my identity as well, and
I think that just about covers who I am. Well, if you realize
you've forgotten any we'll just double back because I'm always no, I this is
this is incredible. So okay, in terms of we'll talk, I'll call
it origin story because comments, So, yeah, where where did you grow
up? What was family? Like? Like what what? What? I
want to hear? I want to hear how it all started? Well,
so I grew up in a really small town and uh it was it was
a very homophobic place. It's a little better now, but uh, it
was not a friendly place for me to be a queerdo And I knew that
I was, Like as soon as I was aware of attraction to anyone,
I knew that I was attracted to not everyone, but uh that like the
capacity to be attracted to Yeah, and like, you know, my the
ways, the ways that I was discerning did not have to do with gender.
They had to do with you know, well all kinds of other things.
But but yeah, I mean even continuing to talk about the nineties,
because I was a teenager in the nineties. Uh, you know, I
always say that, like as soon as I knew that I had a crush
on Fox Mulder, I knew I had a crush on Dana Scully, Like
they just like the best expt. Yeah, that show is so by That
is one of the most bisexual shows of all time. Yeah, and like
and the and the like tension between them was very like charged for my like
little hormonal self. So but like but but then you know their sexual tension.
Yeah, it felt bisexual in a way because I felt involved with it,
because I was like, well, my attraction to Gillian Anderson is like
a huge part of what makes this so hot and all that. Also,
you know, monsters, which clearly like sexuality and horror got mixed up for
me somewhere there along the line for so many queer people. I just talked
about this a few episodes ago, about the links between horror and queerness and
the idea of like humanizing the monster that you're afraid of the monster are just
like all these layers oh totally. I mean, yeah, one of the
one of my favorite classes to teach these days actually is called Monster Smash,
and it is about like a sort of guide to both like literary and mythological
history of how monsters have been sexualized from that, you know, mermaids to
vampires, to vampires. My god, this this society and vampires. We
cannot stop sexualizing them. We refused to, We patently refused it. I
don't know why we would stop now too late to silent way. Also,
anyway, and this is Nora cal Is this right? Did you grow up
in northern California? Okay, that's right? Yeah, yeah, okay,
so that's I guess, Like, yeah, so I knew I I you
know, and I didn't really have the word queer then, oh god,
yeah no, And so I wasn't and I had, you know, it's
interesting. I don't talk about this a lot, but I'm happy to talk
to you about it right now. Like I definitely, like I there are
some people who like really just like get the gay vibe from me. Like,
ever since I was very young, people have been like, there's something
like a little off about you. And I have a very vivid memory of,
you know, some friends who weren't really very of friends, like girls
I was hanging out with who were like, you know, we've been talking
about it, and we think that you might be a lesbian, and I
just and I just really and I just really think that you know, the
question of like queer versus lesbian, a dike versus lesbian, or even what
we were talking about in terms of bisexuality, like I honestly think that that
that was like a root, like a like a repulsion route for me or
I was just like, I don't know if that word will ever recover for
me from from that moment, because it was it was just like so it
was so derisive, and it also very much felt like we're putting you in
a box, and it also felt like, you know, it also felt
inaccurate because you know, it felt like what we're accusing you of is hating
men. And I was sure that I didn't hate men, but I was
I was sure, you know, and by the way, like you know,
not all queer women hate men, uh, like that's you know,
and whatever they were, they were stupid kids, and so was I.
But but I just I think that, like, yeah, the word lesbian
always felt like like something that people were trying to put on me. So
so and my response to that was a little bit because because I knew that
I was attracted to all different kinds of genders and and because there were not
a lot of out queer people, uh in my hometown. I mean I
was like friends with all of them, and because I don't know, my
experience of that was like I need us to be friends. I don't want
us to fuck and like fuck that up for for whatever reason. Not that
not that there's anything wrong with that, like please, you know, but
at that like forming you were forming community instinctually, like from a super young
age. It feels like that's really yes, I guess, so yeah and
yeah, and so I think that because other teenagers, you know, my
peers, were like trying to put me in a box, I was like,
I'll show you by sucking all the dicks. That's an effective way to
combat being accused of being lesbians. Like would a lesbian do this? Yeah,
right exactly. So I had, you know, a lot of my
like early sexual experiences and partners versus men, and I had an alright time
with them. And honestly, it wasn't even their their gender, or their
or their physiology that was frustrating to me about them and I talk about this
a bit in my book Where Are People Into That? Out in June Pride
Season twenty twenty four from his Shed Press. Uh, it was it was
more like I knew that I wanted I knew that I really liked sex,
and I wanted to do it all the time. Uh. And and I
wanted like more like more variety and like more like interesting like different kinds of
sex. And you knew that from like a young age. It's not like
your like puberty age, is she You were just like, well, I
would like on the earlier side, like I like, yeah, I started
menstruating when I was ten, so yeah, that's really early. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that that probably had an effect on me in the
sense that I was this like seething massive hormones, uh, waiting for everybody
else to become a soething massive heart. You're like get to my level.
Yeah yeah, and yeah, I mean I think that it's it's sometimes I
uh see that as an Sometimes I see that as an explanation for what we
were saying about horror and like all the reasons that I'm like so obsessed with
pop culture and like quite actually interested in the relationship between pop culture but also
like literature and music and sexuality. Is that I think I was like putting
a lot of my sexual energy into my like solo sex life, which you
know, was very important to me, uh and active from my age and
like continues to be like an important part of my my sexuality jerking off.
But yeah, I think that then I was like putting my sexuality in like
displacing it onto like everything but people, because I don't know people. Oh
that's so people were sort of boring to me. Yeah, I can say
that. But then I started to be interested in people, and but ye,
people got more interesting maybe as they mature, I guess, I guess.
So, yeah, I certainly did. Are you lowered your standards?
You were just like, they're not going to get any better. I gotta
I gotta lower the bar if I'm gonna and yeah people, Yeah exactly,
And and then you know, it's it's not quite so. I became a
sex worker in my mid twenties, and I started doing sex work in my
mid twenties, And it's not quite accurate to say that sex made me gay,
because I like knew that that was there in all the ways that we've
already been talking about. But but sex work in the Bay Area and this
is very important, for like, sex work in the Bay Area in the
early mid aughts was a time and place that that I could really explore and
expand my sexuality outside of the commercial transactions that I was having. So it's
very important to me to like emphasize that. Like, again, I can't
say it enough. Sex work is work, and sex work was the job
that I was doing, and it is labor, and uh, you know,
sometimes it was fun, uh and sometimes I was learning things about myself
and sometimes I was even getting off. But like the point of it is
that I was at my job, and it's important to emphasize that, especially
because I have a lot of privileged relative to other people in the industry to
even like see the job as something like gotcha, Like it's like exciting and
cool and like there for me to self actualize. But the truth no matter
was especially since there was this sort of like feminist porn scene and queer porn
like genre in the Bay Area at the time, like I was sort of
getting opportunities to make money that were that like did connect me to a queer
community that I had like never really had before because all of the like all
of the communities that I encountered up until then were more like sort of binary
gay, you know, and I sort of again, I like knew that
I wasn't a lesbian, and like I felt a lot of kinship with a
lot of fags. But you know, there was in my experience, there
was like sort of more like division at the time. So then absolutely so
then queer was like, like I said, ding, no, this is
all Yeah. I mean I've had so many guests who talk about not even
hearing the word bisexual until like their twenties or until they got to college,
like and like just gay straight alliance, like that's what. Yeah, there
was not a lot of gray area in any sense. I think, Oh
god, I mean, I'll give you I'll give you a picture of what
my of what my small town was like. We tried to start a gay
straight alliance when I was a senior in high school, and they wouldn't let
us, and they were like, yeah, why don't you do something that's
like that but is like not that, And so you know, we took
the opportunity. We like brainstormed a few things and and we finally came up
with tolerance clubs. Wow, So we had tolerance club and the way we
sort of justified it was like we can raise awareness about like all different kinds
of hate crimes and like all different kinds of bigotry. But you know,
in retrospect that was bullshit. That's just so fucking rue it all. Oh,
can I ask about like what family stuff? Are you hiding all of
this from your family? Like identity, who you're hanging out with eventually,
like sex work you're doing, or like what was their sort of what was
the family buy. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't really hiding anything.
I think that my it was very important to me to individuate from my family
really young, and I think that we just I don't know, I guess
it it felt regular at the time, but I guess like in retrospect,
I think that everybody knew that I was a weirdo, and so they just
kind of like I was very fortunate that everybody just kind of gave me the
space to be weird and you know, even yeah, seriously, that's as
good. Yeah, I mean, and even when when you asked me to
come on this podcast, I was like, I don't, I don't really
have a coming out story, Like I don't really have a coming out story
to my to my family. I never had to like come out to my
friends. Uh. It just was sort of like by the time I was
saying this is my girlfriend, or like this is my boyfriend who I introduced
to you as my girlfriend a year ago, or like uh oh, I'm
making money as a dominatrix, or like you know, any anything else,
I think everybody was just kind of like, yeah, that sounds right,
that's as I love. I do. Actually again, in why are people
into that? The book, I do tell a story, and I won't
spoil it, but I do tell the story of running into my high school
boyfriend who I had like fallen out of touch with, and I had been
I was like in my uh like early late twenties, and and I had
been working as a professional dominatrix for a couple of years. And he asked
me what I was up to, and I said working as a professional dominatrix.
And he said I always knew you'd get into that stuff. And I
was like, what what what is that? Like, what do you even
what does that even mean? Uh? Yeah, So I sort of unpacked
that a little bit more in the book if you want to know what some
of my thoughts about it were. But I I, uh, it's it's
also like part of where the the name why are People Into That? Came
from was sort of the idea of like, like what does what does it
mean to be into something? And like how much like derision is implied by
that? Just like even even like we were talking about the definition of leather,
right, like people talking about being into leather. It's sort of I
don't know, I feel like there's a bit of a like stigma attached to
uh, like there's this thing that has like seduced you somehow, and that
like and that like when you when you like mature, you'll get over it
or something. I'm not quite not quite sure I had. I talked to
my first ever furry guest about a month ago, and we talked about a
lot a lot of these things in terms of yeah, just the the judgment
and all and all of that. Yeah, man, people people just continue
to be so fascinated by furries. Yeah, they are so in terms of
when you went into sex work because of what we were talking about with the
stigmas and all that was that I love how just like the stigma's and all
that easal berucy. Was that something that you were just like dad said on
like no, this is happening. Or did you sort of wrestle with that
decision for a while because you were concerned about like all of the potential doors
that might close or judgment that you might face. Like that's such a because
it's sounding like you did not And I want to phrase this correctly, and
I bet I won't, but my heart's in the right place. It sounds
like you did not quote unquote have to go into sex work for financial necessity
or like this it feels like there was a choice there. Am I phrasing
this at all? Well? You know, I mean like do we have
to work? Do we have to do we have to go into work?
You know? I mean like I'm I'm also not the first person to you
know, point out like like is there like consensual labor under capitalism? Like
I needed to Yes, Okay, okay, okay, I know what you
mean. And there are there are some people who you know, are doing
what we might call survival sex work, and like it is and it is
it is true, And I don't need to be glib about the fact that,
like, there were a lot of things about my identities and about who
I am that give me. I like to talk about it in terms of
social mobility, right, like, like I I needed a job, and
sex work was a job that was available to me, in a job that
I chose, and a job that by and large I really have liked.
Uh and uh like because of a lot of my privileges that I've talked about,
including pursuing like, you know, I have a modern literature BA and
I have an MFA from Sarah Lawrence now, which I am just in eternal
debt uh about. You know, I didn't nobody, nobody paid for that
degree for me, and no one ever will. I'm hoping that the society
will collapse before I have. Yeah, they really are. That's one positive,
that's one upside of the collapse of civilization. But but yeah, uh
So, even though I feel frustrated that those jobs have not or let me
rephrase, even though I feel very frustrated that the degrees that I have have
not given me the economic power that I hoped that they would, like,
I do have social mobility as a result of my education privilege, which is
related to my white privilege, which is related to all kinds of things and
so like, in that sense, that is all a part of the context
of my choice to become a sex worker. But in terms of judgment,
I think I was probably naive about that part. I think that because I
I kind of had an attitude towards my family that if they were going to
judge me about that, then I would just be like bye, and and
I and I had a couple of friends. I've had a couple of friends
over twenty years concern told me about being a sex worker. But for the
most part, I have great taste in people, and everybody has been supportive
of me, including the moments that things have you know, one of the
things that's really important about about sex worker rights is the right to talk about
having had a bad day and not have it like be seen as a sign
that no one should ever have labor rights in the sex industry, which is
unfortunately how things go. So, you know, I am so fortunate to
have friends who I can be like today was not so great at work,
or today was really bad, And that's how we keep each other safe,
you know, emotionally, physically, in all the ways. So uh yeah,
and I have experienced stigma since then in the ways that I've kind of
talked about, like, uh, feeling like there are moments that I might
not have gotten opportunities because people are you know, they say that sex sells,
but actually, like if there's one thing that people love more than money,
it's being scared of things, especially especially Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I feel like maybe like the idea of sex sells, but then
actual sex can really break a sale. Yeah, and so much of you
know, and like yeah, and sex for me, you know, is
like inherently like even when like I'm a SIS woman, and like even when
my clients are CIS men who like have a like SIS had attraction to me
or like a normative attraction to me, and that's is like part of the
the reason that they're hiring me. Like there's just something kind of gay about
everything that I do. And so I think that I think that for sure,
like sometimes people are freaked out and get like a no, homo.
Yeah it is true that when it is, it is you know, biologically
true that if you stick you're dicking me, it does instantly make you gay.
So yeah, well, I but I hope that's a selling point for
people as opposed to a deterrent. So I mean, it's your sure,
husband's sure has been amazing. So yeah, I want to like gentlely guide
the conversation, but I really want you to be able to talk about whatever
you like because you have done so so much. But I guess, like,
how how long were you doing sex work and what sort of segued you
out of that into like well you I mean, my god, when you
start actually working in like the porn film industry, like what, like,
that's that's huge. I'd like being a woman like directing in that is that
like being a woman directing in the regular film industry, Like they give you
more awards. Oh that's great, that's much better than yeah, I mean
yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, in terms of coming
out. The thing that's interesting about porn is that it is a in some
ways a less criminalized part of the sex industry, but it's also more visible,
right, so, like my and especially with the Internet changing the way
that it has over the past twenty years, you know, facial recognition technology
and and all kinds of things. I mean, even like even just the
fact that so many tech platforms try to blend or synthesize different things that you've
done, and a lot of them are related to financial transactions. A lot
of them are related to communication, right, Like, So what I'm trying
to say is that I have to play whack a mole all the time with
like tech platforms that I use. And by tech platforms, I'm talking about
Gmail, I'm talking about like talking about it like you know, Meta and
uh, you know, and and things owned by Elon Musk et cetera,
et cetera, like you know, or things owned by Jeff Bezos where it's
like, uh, like all of a sudden, I will see like my
professional name next to my actual address, or I will see like you know,
or I will see my uh my financial information with you know, like
next to like a picture of my ass. You know. It's like all
of all of that stuff is is so out there, and we're like trying
to figure out like security and technology, but like in order to do that,
there's also so much like surveillance. Yeah, yeah, so that I
mean, I just I had dinner recently with an old friend who you know,
I've like fucked on camera, and you know, she works in a
field now where she would really prefer not to be out about her background in
the sex industry, and she did a she did a facial recognition search for
herself and it was just all there was just a lot of porn and so
you know, now she's like trying to see if she can like get it
all taken down. But like it's yeah, so fucking rough because we didn't.
How are you supposed to have foresight when these things don't exist. It's
like you need like a degree and like engineering, do you have any like
we this was not. It's very frustrated right now. Yeah, and you
know, and you don't have to be ashamed of your past in order,
but you should. It should be your decision if that is also yeah,
because it's about it's about it's about safety, and it's about boundaries, and
it's also about what part of what hasn't you know, people's attitudes about boundaries
have not yet caught up with the reality of tech security and surveillance, right,
So like said, yeah, so and you know, we we you
see this in stories all the time where where like elementary school teachers are non
consensually outed when someone discovers their they're porn. They're porn. Yeah, exactly,
they're only fans the right. So it's like, only fans is legal.
It's it's legal. It's legal to take nudes and post them on only
fans and profit off of them. It's it's legal to do that. And
it's also perfectly reasonable for adults to do that or have done it in the
past, and then to also be able to spend quality time with children,
teach children, be employed to like work with children, right, Like having
that differentiation and those boundaries is actually like a very important part of both working
with children and working in the sex industry. Many like, you know,
I would go, so I think it's safe to say most peopleeople who work
in both of those industries like have that distinction, right, And you know,
nobody nobody is wondering, like, well, I shouldn't say nobody is
wondering what teachers are doing in their bedrooms, because it depends on the teacher
and in the bedroom. But people are. But you know, like most
reasonable people understand that that we're not the same person at work that we are,
or that we're not the same person at like a job that we had
your teams oh my god, yeah, you know, And so the fact
that people can be non consensually outed and then lose their job or lose that
hasing, to lose custody to their kids. I mean, that's not something
that I've personally experienced, but it's part of what my like movement organizing work
and even my journalism work like. And part of the reason I'm even bringing
it up today is like to raise awareness about the fact that that happens,
and to hope that people who are listening to this who might not have considered
that even under the sort of like rubric of what it means to be out,
you know, can can consider that and think about how they can contribute
to destigmatizing like even what it means to be naked on the internet. And
the last thing that I'll say about it for now is that, like,
this is intensely a queer issue because laws that police and surveill sexuality in public
spaces like are always used to police and surveil queer art, queer education,
uh, you know, and like to see anything queer to like deem it
to be obscene, which then means that like it's not you know, it's
it's not legally protected, and so you know, sex worker rights are queer
rights. And the decriminalization of all different kinds of sex work is a queer
issue for like so many reasons that I also talk about in my work a
lot, but you know, for the queer listeners who might not see how
their liberation is tied up in sex work liberation, Like you know, it
is full stop, and like one of the reasons that it is is that
it's about your freedom of speech and bodily autonomy. And if they're coming for
whoors, they're coming for queer's next. They're just like testing out like you
know what and why, and they all be very specific, is like tech
corporations and the federal government and and like you know, morality and media,
like you know, the religious right who like believes that oh hell yeah,
we're banning books again, Like we've gone that far back into the like let
alone modern technology. It's like we're banning analog yeah yeah, and all and
all these like awful all these anti trans bills and all of this book banning.
You know, it's it's about policing all of us out of existence.
So we have to we have to fight that, and the only way that
we're going to fight it is through solidarity between different movements said yes, thank
you. That is a key element that I don't feel is going super well.
Sometimes I'll lave it at that. I want to make sure we get
to talk about why are people into that the podcast and now upcoming book.
But so, yeah, when did you start doing that? What was it?
Just like you had collected so many experiences that you were like, I
gotta put this somewhere, like like did people ask you so many times like
questions about like what's the weirdest thing of clients ever asked? Like what was
the origin of you creating this podcast? Yes, it was totally all of
that, and you know, it really was and it and it was a
bit of a So I started wire people into that the podcast in twenty thirteen,
and it was a little bit of uh, in the interest of figuring
out, like, how can I take all of this knowledge and different kinds
of knowledge that I've gained from working in the sex industry and like create media
that is accessible to all people and or anyone, you know, wherever you
listen to podcasts. And yeah, and so every episode of the podcast,
I would have a different guest and they would choose a topic red to sex,
king, gender, and love and you know, to your point,
like, because of all of the relationships that I'd built, I knew so
many people who were already very comfortable talking about sex, and so so you
know, we could kind of cut through a lot of the bullshit and and
like get down to maybe conversations that we felt like people weren't having enough.
That was that. That's often you know, the prompt that I would give
to people in my podcast is like, talk about this in a way that
you are always frustrated that you can't talk about it else. I love that.
That harkens back to what you said at the very beginning about talking to
your illustrator and saying or being like, let's show these things that don't get
shown en up. That's exactly. That's a really cool like through line.
I love that. Yeah. And so then uh, I got a great
literary agent and we developed the book version of We developed a pitch for the
book version of the podcast, and like there's a version of the of the
book that we could have done where we that was conversation based, like like
my show is like your show is uh or interview based, but I I
kind of really wanted to take the opportunity to you know, practice my favorite
form of writing, which is cultural criticism and the personal essay, and to
kind of treat like all of these different fetish topics like a sort of like
cultural object that uh, that the book that the book is analyzing. And
so that's why we ended up calling it a cultural it's wired people into that,
a cultural investigation of kink. So it's it's kind of a book about
how we talk about fetishes and how we talk about BDSM, and how we
talk about fantasies and how you know, you know, and there's a little
bit of practicality of like, so if you're interested in this kind of sex
or this kind of fetish play, like, how do you get started?
How do you get into it? If you have a partner who is into
it and you don't really understand it? Like, what are some ways that
we can might create compassion in order to like because yeah, I feel like
the more I find that the more different ways that you can think about a
topic, the better your sex life is. To be honest, and yeah,
so the book, uh has a chapter on feet, and it has
a chapter on group sex, It has chapter on fisting. Uh, it
has one of the most popular episodes of the podcast was an episode about cannibalism
fantasies, So I had to do a chapter on that. Interesting and yeah,
so you know, if you want to know more you can. You
made a field guide for fetishes. It sounds like that's so cool, like
a resource. That's really cool. Yeah, thank you. I'd like to
think so, I mean, there are a lot of books, a lot
of great books out there that are like, here's the definition of this,
and here's like here, here's some suggestions, here's some prompts of things that
you can do, and this book has that, but it's it's a little
bit more expansive than that. It's you know, and it's there are only
the chapters are longer rather than like, you know, we could have done
a version of it that was like fifty different fetishes have been shorter, but
but they're sort of they're more like deep dive explorations. Uh. Yeah,
so I'm I'm I'm excited to see what people think. And it's a it's
definitely it's a very gay book. It's a very queer book, but like
it's also it's it's like, you know, by us for everyone, is
what I like to say, it's it's a queer it's a queer perspective on
on things that you know, hopefully we'll also hopefully we'll be interesting and helpful
to queer people of all kinds, but like also interesting and helpful to straight
people. It's not oh I bet yeah, I for the every guy.
I don't know. I literally just thought of that, So I like that
there is there still time to change the subtitle, stop the presses. And
I think that I think that they somebody else might own that. So okay,
fair, fair assessment. Just the stuff you do is so incredible and
you're so I was gonna say, like comfortable with it, but then that
implies that like there's like you shouldn't because that feels like a backhanded like compliment,
you know what I mean. But it's just like I'm someone who,
like by nature, I'm just like so neurotic and awkward that I'm just always
really impressed when someone is like just very like do you feel like is that
something you're kind of like born with? Because you know, you came from
this like small, like not queer friendly town, and yet you're your degree
of just like comfort at discussing these things and doing these things, like I'm
just so impressed with it, and I you know, I grew up in
New York City? Why am I so? So sometimes I'm like, is
that in your genetic coding, like your comfortability with subculture and stuff like that,
or or can you improve upon it? I mean, well, it's
interesting that you bring up New York because, uh, my like family roots
are in Brownsville, in East New York, in Brooklyn, and I lived
in New York for a decade. Sure, and uh and so I if
I had to answer that question, I mean, I like grew up in
this small town. But I was like constantly, you're and you know,
and I'm very much Also, we haven't talked about this identity, but I
for sure identify it as an erotic Jew And so yeah, that's why that's
what I was getting at for me, So like maybe you know, like
part of the ease with talking about this stuff, I mean, it really
just comes from from a lot of experience. But I do think that like
the comfort with being like a very like performative and the like theatrical person might
be related to those like New York Jewish roots and and very loud conversations.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely absolutely, and and yeah and and like
an interest in in subcultures and countercultures. To me, that feels very connected
to my queerness. Yeah, you know, and like even the monstrosity stuff
that we were talking about earlier, Like I'm sort of like, yeah,
you think I'm a monster, Like I'll show you a monster, Like,
yeah, what if lesbian can do this? Fuck? I love it?
Okay, So where can people find you? Uh? You can shout out
all your social media where they can purchase your works or pre order as it
were. But yeah, just plug anything and everything. Yeah, I would
love people to check out Deprogue the comic book and wire People Into That the
book book. You can pre order both of those. Deprog is published by
Dead Sky, and wire People Into That is going to be published by Hashett.
If you want a one stop shop for finding out about all of that
stuff and more, you can go to tinahorn dot net. That's t I
n a h o r n dot net. Uh, you can send up
for my newsletter there you know, that just goes out whenever I have something
to announce, so no spami spam. You can follow me on Twitter and
uh and Instagram, which also but I'm more active on Instagram at t I
N A h O R N s A s s uh. That is where
I'm at. And yeah, if you wanna subscribe to wire people into that.
The podcast. The podcast has been on hiatus while I finished the book,
but uh, hopefully it will be back this year. That's it.
You started it in twenty thirteen and and you think you're still gonna God,
that's amazing. That is incredible. Yeah, that's that's goals. The kids
say, so, yeah, I think that's it. I think that's where
you can find me. Thanks for having me. Oh my god, thank
you. This is far less interesting. Where you can find me at Lauren
Flanns on Twitter, which is the exact way to describe that platform, and
yet I'm addicted to it. You can also find me on Instagram at Lauren
Underscore Flans. The podcast is at coming Out Pod. The hashtag is hashtag
coming out Pod. Shout out to my incredible patrons, Carmel Kaz Simone,
Cayenne, Michelle l Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran Smiley, Aaron
Mitchell, Diego, Hernandez and Beyonclexa dot com and y'all. It's Valentine's Day.
You know, the greatest act of love you can perform for a podcast
is rating at five stars. I got there is rating at five stars on
Apple Podcasts or iTunes or Spotify. You can now give ratings on Spotify Mobile
and five stars is a lovely way to so bright the holiday, Tina,
this was such a fantastic conversation. I cannot wait to follow you and all
the things and read and intake all of your things. That sounded weird,
but you understand what I mean. And yeah, thank you so much.
This was a real pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This
is a really fun conversation. All right, thank you all, and I
will talk to you next week. Bye.