WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.319 I'll say two things. First of all, I don't think that you can 2 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:09.119 paint the debut of spot bitcoiny ETFs as anything other than a monumental success period. 3 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:15.560 There's now something like sixty billion dollars in the category overall, which is 4 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:20.399 already more than half of what physical gold ETFs have, right, and physical 5 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:24.559 gold ETFs have been on the market for something like twenty years. I think 6 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:28.519 that's just mind blowing. And again, as I mentioned, I'm going to 7 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:30.719 keep coming back to this, I think we're just getting started. I just 8 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:35.280 talked about how advisors and institutional investors have only begun, you know, dipping 9 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:46.399 their toe into the water on these This content is brought to you by v 10 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:52.000 chain, which is a leading enterprise grade Layer one public blockchain spearheading a digital 11 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:57.479 revolution from a sustainable, highly scalable smart contract platform. The v chain blockchain 12 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:02.880 has many unique features, which makes it an ideal choice for Web three applications. 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.400 V Chain is working with many great enterprises such as PWCGVONCI, BMW, 14 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.439 and Walmart China. Most recently, they partnered with the Boston Consulting Group to 15 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:19.359 build a revolutionary decentralized application ecosystem I'm a big believer in this project. I 16 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.359 have been since twenty eighteen. I've been a VET token holder for years and 17 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:29.439 this blockchain is highly scalable, great with security and speed, and it has 18 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.920 low energy consumption. If you'd like to learn more about v chain, please 19 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.719 visit vchain dot org. Link will be in a description. Welcome to the 20 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:41.040 Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward. With me today is 21 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:45.400 Nate Jerrasi, who's the president of the ETF Store and the co founder of 22 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.560 the ETF Institute. Nate, great to have you on. Thank you for 23 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.879 having me. Do we have anything to talk about as it pertains the crypto 24 00:01:53.000 --> 00:02:00.000 ETFs? Nah? Nothing know, nothing going on, Nate. I'm excited. 25 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:01.560 As I mentioned before the recording, I'm really excited to speak with you 26 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:06.719 because I followed you on Twitter and you share a lot of insights and knowledge 27 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:10.360 about ETFs, and boy, there's so much going on and I have so 28 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:14.080 many questions for you. So I hope I'm not gonna bombard you, but 29 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:15.360 you know, I would love to get to know you a bit better. 30 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.639 Tell us about yourself, where you're from, which you grew up, in 31 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:23.759 your professional background? Yeah, sure, so I'm sort of from all over 32 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:28.319 the place. I actually grew up in a military family. My dad was 33 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:32.159 thirty years in the army, and so I obviously moved around quite a bit. 34 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:38.319 I actually lived in Germany from sixth grade to graduating high school. But 35 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.120 my mom's family's from New York. My dad's family's from California. So you 36 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:46.560 named the place. I probably lived there at some point. But I ended 37 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.680 up going to school at the University of Kansas, which that's a long story 38 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.479 in and of itself, which I won't bore you with. But KU is 39 00:02:54.520 --> 00:03:00.280 about forty five minutes from Kansas City, and after living all over the place, 40 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:01.960 honestly, I just fell in love with this area. I thought it 41 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.319 was a great place to raise a family. It offered big city amenities but 42 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:12.159 still has a small town feel, and so I love it here now. 43 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:19.000 In terms of my professional background, after I graduated from KU, I went 44 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:23.400 to work for a startup tech company. And what's interesting is this was right 45 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.400 in the heart of the dot combo. So this was like two thousand and 46 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.719 I was actually one of the earlier employees there, and this particular company bucked 47 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:37.120 to Trent, so there were a lot of dot com bus. We ended 48 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:42.360 up being a pretty amazing success story. Company grew to like seven eight hundred 49 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.479 employees. And while I was there, I had a front row seat to 50 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.479 everything in terms of building that company, and I had my hands in nearly 51 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:55.639 everything. So I managed a team, a fairly sizable team. I managed 52 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.000 a company's cash, I did financial forecasting, I worked with it and project 53 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:06.759 managers. I interacted with attorneys, I managed intellectual property. I probably couldn't 54 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:13.159 have asked for a better opportunity just to learn about building and growing a business. 55 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.680 Now, while I was there, I knocked out my MBA, and 56 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:24.120 my emphasis was actually in investing, and I think that probably starts down the 57 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:28.519 path to where I'm currently at. And the long and short of it is, 58 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.519 I always had a passion around personal finance and investing, I would say, 59 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:34.600 as long as I can remember, I mean going back to when I 60 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:39.959 was a kid. I always felt like I would do something in the space. 61 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:44.240 And so around two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, I 62 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.959 had worked directly for the CFO at that tech company, that dot com company 63 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:53.959 I mentioned, and we had always talked stocks and investments in our personal accounts. 64 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.839 Right we trade stock tips, I'm investing in this, he's investing in 65 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.800 that. Just had fun with it. But back at that time, we 66 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:05.600 both were investing in ETFs in our own personal accounts, and one day, 67 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:09.240 I believe it was like early two thousand and eight, we were having a 68 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:15.680 drink at a bar and this concept for the ETF store came up. We 69 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:21.480 thought, why don't we start an investment advisory firm branded around ETFs, because 70 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:27.800 again, we both had been using ETFs in our personal account and you know, 71 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:31.360 we thought ETFs had all sorts of potential benefits and investors, but we 72 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:36.439 didn't really hear about anybody else using them at that time, particularly other advisory 73 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:41.399 firms. There were a lot of advisory firms that were just pushing proprietary product 74 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:46.000 because they receive commissions from doing so. And so this marriage of the RIA 75 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.000 the registered investment advisory model, which we can talk a little bit about if 76 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:54.680 you're interested in the ETF vehicle, we thought was a winning combination for a 77 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:58.839 business. But all telling it, I'm happy to go into it. We 78 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.720 started that in two thousand. So it's funny I started early on at a 79 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.199 tech company or a dot com company in the middle of the dot com bubble 80 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:10.639 and then started an investment advisory firm and the teeth of the financial crisis, 81 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.399 Tony, we bloodied our noes. You know. I think we came into 82 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.279 the business very overconfident, to say the least. I think we both felt 83 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.199 like we knew a lot of people around town. That would be easy because 84 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.800 we had these all ETF portfolios. People would be tripping over themselves to hand 85 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.600 us their money. Very naive in hindsight, and at that time around the 86 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.439 financial crisis, people were scared, right. They weren't going to hand their 87 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:42.079 accounts over to somebody who didn't have any experience in the business. And it 88 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:46.000 was nobody knew what ETFs were at the time. So long story short, 89 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.920 we took a lot of bullets early on. And what we did right is 90 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:55.920 we built a really good foundation for an investment advisory firm. And I'll just 91 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:00.759 wrap this up by saying, so around twenty eleven, we were thinking about, 92 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.959 Okay, how do we educate the market on what ETFs were. In 93 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:10.680 true story, I was sitting in the Starbucks here in Kansas City. I 94 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.480 was meeting with a business acquaintance and they were saying, you know, Nate 95 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.600 nobody knows what an ETF is. And I was like, yes, you 96 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.959 know, it's twenty eleven. Certainly people know what an ETF is. Now 97 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.240 They're like, no, I don't think so. So I got up, 98 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.920 I walked around the Starbucks. There are probably fifty people there. I asked 99 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:30.959 every single person have you ever heard of an ETF? Not one person that 100 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.319 heard of an ETF. So I came back and was like, you're right, 101 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.480 we have a big problem. How do we fix that? And so, 102 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:41.120 long story short, I launched a radio show in Kansas City focused on 103 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:46.920 educating the market on ETFs. That radio show ultimately morphed into what is today 104 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:51.279 the ETF Prime Podcast. So I believe back in twenty eleven it was one 105 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:57.839 of the first ETF podcasts, if not the first ETF podcast that that was 106 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:01.079 out there. And so that kind of started the trajectory of just educating the 107 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:07.560 marketplace on ETFs. And I'll just I'll wrap this long die drive up by 108 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.240 saying I also blog website called the ETF Educator dot com. And then I 109 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.079 co founded, i think, as you mentioned, something called the ETF Institute, 110 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:22.079 which is professional education and certification around ETF. So what let me pause, 111 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.360 there, No, that's it's great, Nate. You're certainly a pioneer 112 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:31.920 in the ETF business and educating folks and building awareness. So that's amazing. 113 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.639 And I love that Starbucks story, you know, kind of the grassroots just 114 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.279 going uh to figure out what what are people thinking and what what is their 115 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.320 level of understanding. I have a cool question, you know, given that 116 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:48.799 you saw the dot com bubble or market rise and then collapse, are you 117 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:56.039 seeing any comparisons or similarities to what's happening in crypto? Yeah? I don't 118 00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.120 think so, because we are just completely different markets. I'm not a big 119 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:05.919 fan. I always pay attention to history, and I think it's important to 120 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.759 understand history, and especially history and financial markets. I'm very hesitant to try 121 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:15.320 to draw conclusions from that history and bring it forward to the to the present 122 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.039 day. So I can see where there are echoes of the dot com bubble 123 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.000 in crypto. But look, if you look at crypto's life cycle, I 124 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.080 mean, Bitcoin's already been out there for fifteen years. We've seen several boom 125 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.600 and bus cycles. I just think it's different. Again, there's certain things 126 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.919 we can get into in terms of the parallels between Dot com and crypto, 127 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.919 but I don't I don't see in terms of a bubble or bus. I 128 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.279 don't see that today. No in crypto, Oh yeah, yeah, And 129 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.279 I guess you know, the dot com boom was mostly US based, while 130 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.399 crypto is a global acid class and there's you know, accessible accessible excuse me, 131 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:58.000 by everyone if we have internet connection around the globe for sure. Yeah. 132 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.360 So, a bit about you and the folks at the ETF Store as 133 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:13.000 investment advisors, and your processes and outlook on the bitcoint ETFs and how you're 134 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.879 approaching clients about that, I guess if you can start with the first round 135 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:22.639 of approvals, what was your next steps and what was your strategy to start 136 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.360 presenting it to your clients. Yeah, so let me back up and just 137 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.639 tell you a little bit about the ETF Store, the investment advisory business itself. 138 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.679 So we work primarily with retail clients, managing all the types of accounts 139 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:41.120 that you would expect, retirement accounts, right, iras, taxable accounts, 140 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:45.039 trust, so on and so forth. We are a full service wealth manager, 141 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.960 so in other words, we can do everything financial planning, budgeting, 142 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.480 insurance. We can handle just about any aspect of a client's financial life. 143 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.360 Now, on the investment side, obviously we do focus on ETFs. That's 144 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.200 that's a given with the name of the firm, and we offer a range 145 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:09.080 of ETF model portfolios which we do manage in house, and if I look 146 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.960 at our clients, a lot of our clients are using those models. However, 147 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:16.519 I think it's important to note our advisors can use any type of investment 148 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:18.440 right We're going to do whatever's best for the d client at the end of 149 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:24.399 the day. But we do believe ETFs are very effective at providing low cost 150 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.120 and efficient exposure to the markets, and so I think that's a good segue 151 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.120 into bitcoin ETFs. And the way that I'll lay this out for you is 152 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.720 all of our advisors currently do have the ability to offer spot bitcoin ETFs to 153 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:46.799 clients. However, spot bitcoin ETFs are not currently in the model portfolios that 154 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:52.159 I mentioned. I do envision that happening at some point, at least within 155 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.440 some of our models, But among our advisory team, I would say there's 156 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:01.080 still a lot of education going on in terms of the in client and the 157 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:07.279 consensus among our team is that it first makes more sense to just have the 158 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:13.120 ability to offer spot bitcoin ETFs to clients versus essentially forcing it upon them within 159 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:18.320 our portfolios. Now that may surprise you. It may surprise some people listening 160 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.360 to this podcast, because people that follow me see me, you know, 161 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:28.720 continually advocating for spot bitcoin ETFs, and I want to I want to explain 162 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.759 this. So obviously I've been a huge advocate for bringing spot bitcoin ETFs to 163 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.279 market. But when I'm out on Twitter, I'm speaking on behalf of myself, 164 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.799 okay, not on behalf of our team of advisors, and ultimately our 165 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.279 team of advisors and our clients have to be comfortable. But here's what else 166 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.639 I'll tell you, which I think is very important. I do believe our 167 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:58.200 firm is way out ahead of many advisory firms in terms of our knowledge around 168 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.279 crypto and bitcoin. And so if you think about this, this is important. 169 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.240 If a firm like ours, and again you mentioned I'm what I'm doing 170 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.879 on Twitter in my knowledge of the space, if a firm like ours still 171 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.200 has an incorporated Spot bitcoin ETFs as a primary holding in our model portfolios, 172 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.799 think about how early we still are in all this. And that's not any 173 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.320 sort of statement on the current or future price of bitcoin. I'm not in 174 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:30.960 the business and making predictions on crypto prices, but I think we are so 175 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:39.200 early an adoption. And you have to remember many advisors such as US and 176 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:45.759 many institutional investors, they have extremely rigorous due diligence processes. Right, They're 177 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:50.519 not just going to jump into something like spot bitcoiny ETFs overnight. It takes 178 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:56.000 some time. And so that's what's amazed me about how successful spot bitcoin ETFs 179 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:03.279 are because again I know argue of them and how we think about them. 180 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.480 I just think we're so early, right, I mean, we're not even 181 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:09.480 fully allocated a firm like our because this thing is in like the top of 182 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.399 the first inning, yeah, I mean, and then when you think about 183 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.159 it, I know it's been growing significantly significantly like black Rocks ETF, but 184 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.919 it's only been what is it, Nate, like five months? Five months? 185 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.799 Yeah, yeah, that hasn't been like two years or something where people 186 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.360 are comfortable, and I know many of the etf fatures are going out building 187 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.720 their brand awareness, educating folks. So it's going to take time, like 188 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.960 you're saying, for all, walk run education is a huge part of this, 189 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.159 and again really educating the end clients because as an advisor we can understand 190 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:46.080 it inside and out, but clients have to get it as well. So 191 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:52.879 I'm curious, and this is kind of like the macro for all of the 192 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.200 financial advisors, rias and so forth. But also, you guys, what's 193 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:01.080 your timeline that you're looking Maybe is it a one year window or two year 194 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.519 window or five year window where we're like, you know, that's when we're 195 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.000 going to go full all in, right, We're going to pull the lever 196 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.080 and add it to the portfolio and so forth. Yeah, I'm not going 197 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.960 to put a timeframe moment. I think it's going to vary by the type 198 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.759 of advisor and investor, depends on their investment approach. Right, we can 199 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:24.039 look at the run up at bitcoin has had overall since the launch of ETS. 200 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.320 Is now a great time for an entry point? I think we can 201 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.720 debate that where does this fit within a portfolio? I personally tend to view 202 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.519 bitcoin is an alternative, something that is more akin to digital gold. And 203 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.919 so my point of bringing that up is, you know, does an advisor 204 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.559 view it like that? Do they view it more as coming out of the 205 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.279 equity holdings? All of this plays into how they go about allocating it within 206 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.600 a portfolio. There's some firms that they want to see these things on the 207 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.759 market for a certain period of time. That's not us. I'm comfortable because 208 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.039 I know how the ETF structure. I'm comfortable that these are functioning exactly as 209 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.080 they should. But there are some firms that want to see a longer track 210 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.600 record, and so perhaps they want to see these trading for a year or 211 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:15.840 two or three before they'll invest. It's just going to vary by the type 212 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:21.840 of advisor or investor. So NY I got to ask, given your plethora 213 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:26.159 of experience around ETFs, have you ever seen anything like this that the amount 214 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:32.039 of inflows I think was it black Rocks is the fastest growing ever ETF. 215 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:37.399 And do you expect this trend to continue? I do? I mean, 216 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.200 let me, I'll say two things. First of all, I don't think 217 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.840 that you can paint the debut of spot Bitcoiny ETFs as anything other than a 218 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:52.080 monumental success period. There's now something like sixty billion dollars in the category overall, 219 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:57.240 which is already more than half of what physical gold ETFs have, right, 220 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.840 and physical gold ETFs have been on the mar it for something like twenty 221 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:06.279 years. I think that's just mind blowing. You look earlier this week, 222 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.759 I believe on Tuesday, five months after launch, we had a day where 223 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.839 there was a billion dollars in net inflows into these products in a single day. 224 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:22.319 There's been like fifteen billion dollars into these products overall. And again, 225 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:23.400 as I mentioned, I'm going to keep coming back to this, I think 226 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.920 we're just getting started. I just talked about how advisors and institutional investors have 227 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.240 only begun, you know, dipping their toe into the water on these But 228 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:37.440 I'll also say that I'm not shocked. I think I was one of the 229 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.960 few who was extremely bullish on the potential demand for spot bitcoin ETFs way before 230 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:48.160 it was cool. So I actually predicted in early January that spot bitcoin ETFs 231 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:53.039 would obliterate every ETF launch record out there, and I'm pretty sure that's about 232 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:59.240 what's happened. Yeah, So I can't say that I'm overly surprised by what 233 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.079 we've seen. I'll just tell you the reason I was optimistic was because of 234 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:08.160 direct conversations that I was having with investors and advisors. I could just tell 235 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:12.119 there was a lot of pent up demand. They wanted this product. And 236 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.599 the other thing was I had a lot of anecdotal evidence. So you'll find 237 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:22.680 this interesting anytime that I covered spot bitcoin ETFs on my ETF Prime podcast, 238 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:29.119 like clockwork downloads with spike and not just by a little, but these were 239 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.720 pretty big spikes. And so it was clear to me that the market wanted 240 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.720 spot bitcoin ETFs. And then the last thing I'll say, just regarding the 241 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:44.119 demand and what we've seen, you know, think about the names that are 242 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:49.640 involved in this space, Blackrock, Fidelity, Invesco, Franklin, Templeton. 243 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.200 When you see those types of firms file for spot bitcoin ETFs, I'm just 244 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:02.319 telling you those firms don't get out of bed for what they perceived as small 245 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:07.359 opportunities. And so the fact that those types of players wanted in on this 246 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.079 space, I think that should have made everybody, you know, relatively bullish 247 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.319 on what the demand will look like. Yeah. Absolutely, I'm still blown 248 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.279 away. I mean, I know you've been in the ETF business and kind 249 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.640 of had a pulse on this ahead of time, but you know, I'm 250 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.359 more familiar buying bigcoin directly and self custody and so forth. But I was 251 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:33.920 not expecting this type of performance. It's incredible. I'm so blown away and 252 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.559 I can't I'm really excited for what's coming for the remainder of this cycle and 253 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.599 this later this year into next year. Now, not everyone is a fan 254 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.720 of these ets van Guard and some of these folks are still on the fence 255 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.279 or you know, really against it, being contrarians. Do you think they're 256 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:53.680 going to capitulate eventually? It's tough to say. I mean, somebody like 257 00:19:53.799 --> 00:20:00.359 van Guard just given the types of products that they have historically offer, I 258 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.400 certainly don't expect them to offer crypto ETFs anytime soon. But you know, 259 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:11.279 longer term, I'm of the belief crypto's here to stay, and we can 260 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.640 talk about tokenization and those sorts of things. I think ultimately securities will be 261 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:22.640 tokenized, and you know, so does that if you think about the path 262 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.440 of that, Does that incentivize somebody like Vanguard to make sure they're being forward 263 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.359 thinking and get involved in this market. And is a crypto etf a way 264 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.279 to do that? Yeah? Sure, But you know, I think it's 265 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:40.640 tough to predict what they'll do. But my my belief is that every major 266 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:45.839 et fisher who offers a broad spectrum of asset classes they should be involved in 267 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:52.759 crypto ETFs. And I'm honestly shocked when I look at issuers such as State 268 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:57.680 Street and Charles Schwab, you know, pretty pretty big etfisiers that they're not 269 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:03.000 offering crypto ETF shape doesn't make any sense to me? Do you think that? 270 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.759 And I know we can't get into the minds of people, but that's 271 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.440 a very bad business decision on their part, and eventually it will play out 272 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.960 over time where they lose market share as this acid class continues to grow and 273 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.079 there's so much demand for it. Yeah, I think that's possible. I 274 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:26.359 mean, my expectation is still that Charles Schwab excuse me, will ultimately launch 275 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.799 spot crypto products State Straight. We'll see, But yeah, I do think 276 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.599 it puts them at a disadvantage. Again, the numbers speak for themselves. 277 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:40.920 I just mentioned that the spot Big TWENTYTF category in five months is already at 278 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.759 sixty billion, So if you're if you're an issuer out there, you can't 279 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.400 ignore a category like that. Yeah, absolutely, And Nate, what we're 280 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.039 seeing some game theory playing out here. I know the United States was not 281 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.960 the first to launch body tips. I think Canada had it and so forth. 282 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.680 But look, United States has the largest capital market, so it was 283 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.440 the largest domino to fall first, but then Hong Kong and then London, 284 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.880 and I think just this past week Thailand or something like that. What are 285 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:11.200 your thoughts on the global launch of these uspot ETF products. Yeah, I 286 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.359 don't know that I have any profound thoughts on international spot crypto ETFs, other 287 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:22.200 than to say it's been clear to me that regulators in other countries have been 288 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.839 much more welcoming of crypto overall, I would say not not every country, 289 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:32.279 but on the balance, I think that's a fair assessment, and I think 290 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:38.799 the US it really needs a comprehensive crypto regulatory framework in place to move forward. 291 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:45.240 I think that what we saw in the process for spot bitcoin ETF's coming 292 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.160 to market, where it took a lawsuit from Grayscale to push those through. 293 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:56.240 We can talk spot ethere ETFs if you'd like, but that's indicative of the 294 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.880 lack of crypto regulatory framework we have in place that the way that that process 295 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:06.599 or those processes have played out. So I would prefer I'm not here. 296 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:10.440 You know, some nationalists waving the flag, but I look we live in 297 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.200 the United States. I would love to see the United States take the leadership 298 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:18.799 role as opposed to being a laggard in crypto. Absolutely speaking of the Ethererem's 299 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:22.759 bott EYTF. So we got the partial approvals. It seemed like the political 300 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.400 pressure maybe or I don't know if this was part of the SEC's plan, 301 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.519 but they kind of did it last minute, right. There was no communication 302 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.799 or proper communication with the filers, and then all of a sudden, a 303 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.400 week ahead of the deadline or the week of the deadline, Hey, we're 304 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.839 going to start approving these nineteen dash nineteen b dash force is it right? 305 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.000 And then we're going to work on the s once. What are your thoughts 306 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.680 on how that played out. I'm only smiling because I think I'm one of 307 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:53.559 the few people out there who have said that I don't think this whole thing 308 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:59.880 was primarily tied to politics, and I think, as you know, I 309 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:07.359 wasn't that surprised by the spot ETF nineteen be four approvals. It does seem 310 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.519 like just about everyone was expecting denial. But Tony, honestly, I try 311 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.839 to step back and just look at the evidence, and the fact is, 312 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:22.960 if you go back to October of last year, the SEC approved Ether Futures 313 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:27.920 ETFs, and this was after they had lost the Gray Scale lawsuit. This 314 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.559 was also, I think importantly, this was well after Ether had moved to 315 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.519 a proof of stak right. And you know, of course, as we 316 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.599 already covered, the SEC approved Spot bitcoin ETFs in January. So just think 317 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:47.119 about this. We had the Gray Scale lawsuit, which the very basic thrust 318 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:52.000 of that was, since the SEC approved Bitcoin futures ETFs, they needed to 319 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.640 approve Spot bitcoin ETFs. Right, the spot in futures markets are highly intertwined, 320 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.559 which I don't think that takes a rocket scientist to figure out. Okay, 321 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:07.039 so you take Gray Scales lawsuit victory, the SEC approval of Ether Futures 322 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.440 ETFs, and then their approval of Spot bitcoin ETFs. This seemed pretty straightforward 323 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.960 to me that we would get Spot ether ETF approval at least, you know, 324 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.359 I was optimistic on the prospects there. And then I'll add to that 325 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.039 we were given some clues along the way. So if you go back and 326 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.759 look at the comments that SEC Commissioner Hester Pearce made, I think this was 327 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.960 back in January after spot bitcoin approval. She said that we don't need a 328 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.680 court to tell us the SEC that you know, our decision making was arbitrary 329 00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:45.440 and capricious. In order to get the decision right on spot ether ETF approval. 330 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:51.240 We also got word that the SEC was engaging with issuers on leveraged ether 331 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:57.519 futures ETFs. That was in late April, Grayscale pulled their nineteen v four 332 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:03.839 filing on their thirty three acts the futures ETF which I only mentioned that because 333 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.039 if they thought the SEC was going to deny spot eth ETFs, then they 334 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.119 should have kept that filing out there to get a decision on it so they 335 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.799 could then use that in any subsequent court case if they decided to sue the 336 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.559 SEC for not approving spot eth ets. I could go on, but there 337 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.000 was a bunch of evidence along the way that I felt like people missed, 338 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:30.720 And you know what, was there some politics involved. I'm not sure that's 339 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.759 possible, but I think the SEC was going to be hard pressed to deny 340 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.759 these things. I think that if they had denied, they were going to 341 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.880 get suited again. I truly believed that, whether it was Gryscale or somebody 342 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.039 else. Yeah, I was talking a bit about that that this time around. 343 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.519 I don't know if Gary Genser wants to mess with black Rock, Fidelity, 344 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.440 Franklin Templeton, and the whole group of these folks who could all pull 345 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.519 a pile on litigation like crazy. But not only that, and maybe I 346 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.960 wasn't, you know, quite as eloquent as I wanted to be and what 347 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:06.240 I just described, but this was pretty straightforward. You had CMME traded ether 348 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:11.160 futures. The whole setup with spot ettfs was exactly the same that we saw 349 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.799 with spot bitcoin ETFs, and I just didn't see a path. How were 350 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:21.480 they going to overcome denying that? How were they going to win a lawsuit 351 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.880 on the things were exactly the same? I just didn't It didn't make sense 352 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:30.240 to me. So I kept going back to first principles on this in terms 353 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.160 of why I had some optimism. Now, you know, to be fair, 354 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:34.759 I wasn't out there saying I was one hundred percent sure these are going 355 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.079 to be approved, because you never know what the SEC is going to do. 356 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:41.559 I certainly saw a path where if the SEC denied them, I thought 357 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.319 that was a realistic possibility. I just believed that they would be sued and 358 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.119 ultimately lose that lawsuit. So I thought it was one of two things, 359 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.319 and I tweeted this out all along the way. I was like, they're 360 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.119 either going to be approved or the SEC is going to get sued. Absolutely, 361 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.119 Now, Nate, what's your best guess as to when these s ones 362 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.880 will be approved? Are we looking at another month, two to three months 363 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:11.079 or next year? And do you see the inflows being maybe fifty percent of 364 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.079 what bitcoins has been so far? Yeah? Two good questions. Look, 365 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.079 I don't know what the SEC is going to do, but every indication, 366 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:25.359 everything that I'm seeing, including some comments yesterday from SEC chair Gary Gensler, 367 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:32.960 is that they are attempting to proactively work through this process, get the updated 368 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:37.880 s ones in, haven't revised, will re summit him again. My expectation 369 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.839 would be in the next several weeks to you know, to two months. 370 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.480 Max. I could be wrong on that. I don't have any inside information. 371 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:51.160 I think I saw Bloomberg's Eric Balchuna set an over under of like July 372 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.279 fourth. I said I'd take the under on that. I think I would 373 00:28:53.319 --> 00:29:00.680 stick with that that I would expect approval by July fourth, And then what's 374 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:03.079 your put Look, this we're guessing here, right, this is speculation, 375 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.359 But what do you think the inflows might be. Obviously, I think there 376 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:14.079 might not be as much demand as there is sorry a lighting issue. I 377 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.240 think that a reasonable proxy. So let's just start high level. Ether itself 378 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:23.079 is about one third the market cap of bitcoin. I think that that's a 379 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:29.279 reasonable proxy for what we will see in the ETF space. Now, some 380 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.880 people will say, uh, these ETFs aren't going to have the ability to 381 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.359 offer staking, so maybe that'll take some of the demand away, and I 382 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:40.720 think that's a reasonable argument. Maybe that pulls a little bit of demand away, 383 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:42.640 and it's not quite a third of what we saw from bitcoin ETFs, 384 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:48.359 it's a little bit less than that. But overall, I'm pretty optimistic on 385 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.279 what the flows will look like. I don't expect them to look like what 386 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:56.119 we saw from Spot bitcoin ETFs for for a couple of reasons. Again, 387 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:59.680 bitcoin's a bigger market, but also, uh, that was the first crypto 388 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:03.319 et A product out there, and so I think there again was pent of 389 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:11.640 demand that I don't know that we'll necessarily see from from Spot ether ets. 390 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.240 But look longer term, depending upon how this all plays out, I can 391 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:21.200 see a scenario where spot ets or every bit is big of a category this 392 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:25.920 spot nitcoin ETFs. That may take some time. It's going to evolve. 393 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.880 People are gonna have to understand ether and you know, what the applications are, 394 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.039 what the investment case is. But but yeah, I think it could 395 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:40.880 grow into a very sizable category over the long term. So I'm I'm overall 396 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.599 pretty bullish on what demand will look like. Let's talk a bit about the 397 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.359 staking aspect, because that's still up in the air with regards to what how 398 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.359 the SEC wants to treat it or how cryptoregulations play on the US because the 399 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:57.480 SEC sees that as a security offering and so forth. So let's say eventually 400 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.839 we get this sort of APT and the SEC says, look, you can 401 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:06.720 launch an ETF and eat ETF with staking. Maybe this is a dumb question. 402 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.640 Can that be attached to the existing ets or an entirely new ETF needs 403 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.519 to be launched with that. I just think the existing ETFs would be updated 404 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.200 and they would have the ability to stake and then obviously provide that yield to 405 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:25.160 end investors. I think it'd be that simple. You know, it's clear 406 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.960 that that's something the SEC is not currently comfortable with. I think that gets 407 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:33.599 into the whole discussion of whether or not Ether is a security. If you 408 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.519 look in the s ones that are filed, I believe there's quite a bit 409 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:41.759 of language around. You know, the regulatory winds could shift and maybe Ether 410 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:45.720 is labeled as a security at some point. I think all of that has 411 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:52.599 to be hashed out, no pun intended before obviously we get staking. I 412 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.640 do think ultimately staking will be a part of these at SSH. It's just 413 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.119 a matter of when that happens. Now, Nate, there's been a lot 414 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:07.640 of talks by media, CEOs and so forth of a Solana and an XRP 415 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.440 E TF possibly on the horizon, maybe twenty twenty five. But I know 416 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.759 the futures has to be approved for us. He has to go through the 417 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:19.000 same process Big one and e theorem has gone through. What is what likelihood 418 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.000 are you giving for these things to happen? Yeah, I mean you hit 419 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.799 then on the head. I guess it's going to take one of two things 420 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:29.160 in order for additional spot crypto ETFs to come to the market. So one 421 00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:32.599 is what you said, We're going to have to have futures listed on a 422 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:38.000 venue that is regulated by the CFTC. So for example, we would need 423 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:43.680 to have CM traded Salona futures. Here's the thing, though, even if 424 00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:47.720 we get those, the SEC is going to want to see a track record 425 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:52.000 all those. They're going to have to have some history of trading. And 426 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.440 then even if we get that, I think we would then need to see 427 00:32:54.440 --> 00:33:00.880 Salona futures ETFs right, and then ultimately we'd get a spot Solana etf. 428 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:05.119 If you think about how long it would take for all of that to play 429 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:09.279 out, we're talking years in my opinion. The other path, which would 430 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:15.119 be much quicker and much easier in my opinion, would be for Congress to 431 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:22.319 put a legitimate regulatory framework in place for crypto right where there's a clear definition 432 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:28.200 of what's a security and what's a commodity and who has oversight. I think 433 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:31.920 if that can get done, then other crypto ETFs could come to market much 434 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.079 sooner. But you know, as you know, we're also in an election 435 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.000 here, so we talked a little bit about the political wins. Who knows 436 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.400 how that's all going to play out and whether we can get Congress to actually 437 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:50.839 put a crypto regulatory framework in place. I think I am less than optimistic 438 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.559 about that right now. And so that's a long way of saying I don't 439 00:33:54.599 --> 00:34:00.319 expect to see Solana or XRP ETFs come to market time, so I really 440 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:07.440 don't question about basket ETF. So, for example, once the etherorem ETF 441 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:12.079 spot ETF is live, could Blackwrok say, hey, we're going to offer 442 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.119 the top two bigcoe in Ether in this particular ETF. And then eventually, 443 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.199 let's say five years from now or three years and now the XRP Salona ETFs 444 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.320 are approved, could there be a top five, top ten basket of those 445 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.239 tokens in one ETF. I love this question because Tony, that's where this 446 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.400 is all heading. It's just a matter of time. So yes, in 447 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.880 the short term. I'm actually surprised that even today we haven't seen a filing 448 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.880 for a combined spot Bitcoin and spot ethere ETF. That shocks me. If 449 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.400 I was an issuer, I would have filed that already, and I think 450 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.920 you'll see one of two flavors there. You'll see just a very basic market 451 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.199 cap weighted approach. We talked about how Ether is about a third the market 452 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:57.159 cap and Bitcoin. You'll see somebody doing ETF that's just a market cap approach. 453 00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:01.960 And then you'll also see etf that are actively managed, where you know, 454 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:06.840 issuers trying to make a determination of how much Bitcoin versus Ether they want 455 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:09.880 to own based on the underline market. Then to your question longer term, 456 00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:15.800 yeah, I think we'll see h index based crypto ETFs. I think about 457 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:20.519 an issuer like bit wise, who already has a publicly traded fund, it's 458 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.199 not an ETF, it's you know, a basket of crypto assets. That's 459 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.360 what we're going to see in an ETF wrapper. And so you'll see index 460 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.360 based crypto ETFs, and you'll see actively managed crypto ETFs. Now, I 461 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.960 know there's some people listening here that and I've seen this out on Twitter where 462 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:43.480 they will go, you know, Bitcoin and Ether are two completely different crypto 463 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.400 assets, so why would I want to own these in the same ETF. 464 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.599 Well, that's exactly the point. You know, if you think about advisors, 465 00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:54.599 advisors love diversification, right, So it's really that simple that to own 466 00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:00.559 a diversified basket of crypto assets I think would be attractive to the marketplace. 467 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:05.519 But yes, I think we have spot bitcoin ETFs today. I think we're 468 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.480 going to have Spoty through ETF soon. Well, then see combined spot Bitcoin 469 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:12.639 and Spotty through ETFs. And then, as I described before, once the 470 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:17.559 regulatory environment, once we have some clarity there in additional crypto assets come to 471 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:23.639 market, then you'll see index based and actively managed crypto ETF baskets. So, 472 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:28.039 Nate, we've seen in the crypto market there's a lot of volatility, 473 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.480 right. I don't think I've seen volatility like this in any other asset class, 474 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:35.199 although there may be some stocks that are moved like that, right, 475 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.119 but overall crypto is super volatile, and that could be because it's a young, 476 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:45.079 acid class. Will the ETFs help reduce some of that volatility kind of 477 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.599 maybe what they did with gold where gold became less volatile. I don't know 478 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.760 if I'm articulating that well, but yeah, I don't know. Look, 479 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:59.480 I guess potentially. But here's what I always say. ETFs are simply investment 480 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.559 vehicle. Right, if someone wants to buy bitcoin, they can buy it 481 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.039 direct, they can buy it on an exchange where they can use an investment 482 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:13.800 vehicle such as an ETF. And while the ETF has certainly opened up access, 483 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:20.559 I think to say that an investment wrapper can bring down the volatility of 484 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:22.840 an asset class. That doesn't necessarily make sense to me, right, So 485 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:30.280 I think about HIGHU old bonds, or technology stocks or or whatever you want 486 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:35.239 to pick. Just because those are available in an ETF doesn't bring down the 487 00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:39.880 volatility of those asset classes. So I don't know that that's really a factor. 488 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.559 And I guess the other thing I would say, I personally view the 489 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:47.719 volatility of something like bitcoin as a positive. I think that's a feature, 490 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.519 not a bug. I think if you have a globally diversified portfolio and you 491 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:59.480 have a small allocation to bitcoin, let's just call it five percent. If 492 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:02.480 your size in that position correctly, right, So that five percent, and 493 00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:07.159 you're rebalancing in a highly disciplined manner, the volatility works in your favor. 494 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:13.960 So yeah, I don't I don't think the ETF impacts that. You know, 495 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:16.960 maybe somebody has some academic study out there somewhere that shows opening up access 496 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:21.039 brings it down. But again, I just view the ETF as it's a 497 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:24.119 pass through vehicles, and it's a way to access an asset class, and 498 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:29.239 just because you have that access doesn't necessarily bring down the volatility. Well, 499 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.679 or is it not so much the ETF product itself, but rather on ramps 500 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:38.239 being built in different ways where there's more liquidity coming up, coming in and 501 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:43.119 more people are getting access to the assets. So maybe it's just naturally over 502 00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.760 time. I think that's fair. And also to your point, I think 503 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:49.480 by opening, by having those on ramps and opening up access, what that 504 00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:52.679 does is that brings a wide variety of investors to the table, right, 505 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:59.880 with much different motivations. And so maybe because of that you get some reduction 506 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.519 volatility. You know. Again, that's that's probably outside my pay Gray, 507 00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.400 I'll leave it to the academic walks to figure that out. Yeah, So 508 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:14.280 Nate, look, we've seen the four year cycles, the blow off tops 509 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.159 and so forth. Possibly twenty twenty five we may see that, and we 510 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.800 talk about rebalancing our portfolios. So are you expecting a major sell off not 511 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.280 only an ETS. Well, we've seen major sellofs outside of ets, right, 512 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.920 but with the ETFs, a good amount of outflows maybe twelve months from 513 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:36.280 now. Look, well, one thing I don't do. I don't make 514 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.880 any price predictions. You know, I don't have a crystal ball. I 515 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:44.400 always say my crystal ball is broken, So I'm not going to make any 516 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:49.480 sort of uh, you know, prognostication on where the future price of bitcoin 517 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.360 or any crypto as it will be. In terms of flows, I expect 518 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:59.360 demand to be similar to what we've seen already. If anything, I think 519 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.599 demand is going to continue ramping up for all the reasons I described earlier, 520 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:09.880 and that advisors and institutional investors are just now wading in to these products. 521 00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:15.920 It's a trickle at this point. I believe that's only going to increase. 522 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:21.199 So I think demand's going to continue to be along the lines of what we 523 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.519 we've seen. I don't expect some big drop off, if anything. If 524 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:30.199 I had a guess, I would expect demand to accelerate. Sure, tough 525 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.679 question for you, and this is more of speculating and trying to maybe get 526 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.280 an idea predicting what the future may look like. How do you think the 527 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:44.239 ETF industry is going to change? If there is any change based on these 528 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:49.440 ETFs, giving the performance, giving the global distribution of the asset, and 529 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.880 many of them are hardcap, like big ones hardcap, do you see any 530 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:58.360 major changes to the ETF industry and models based on this? No, I 531 00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:00.360 mean if I'm understanding your question, are you saying that that that this may 532 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:07.559 change the actions of issuers within the industry. Oh yeah, whether it be 533 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:10.880 the issuers or the type of ETFs that are offered. Uh does it? 534 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:16.679 I think we had you had hinted towards it earlier about like tokenization. We 535 00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:23.280 may see ETFs around to tokenization of real world assets. Yeah, yeah, 536 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.679 yeah, I don't think so. I think that again, if you look 537 00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:31.239 at the largest players in the space, I mean think about again, let's 538 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:36.679 talk about black Rock and Franklin Templeton. I would put wisdom Tree in this 539 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:42.800 category. They're already tokenizing funds, right, we see, we see tokenized 540 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.559 money market funds out there. Wisdom Tree has something called wisdom Tree Prime with 541 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:53.320 tokenized funds. It's already moving in that direction. I don't think the success 542 00:41:53.320 --> 00:42:00.960 of the ETFs necessarily changes that. Certainly, players who are not currently involved 543 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:05.159 in the crypto space are going to be looking at the success of the spot 544 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:09.519 ETFs and maybe looking at what people like black Rock and Franklin Templeton and Wisdom 545 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:14.159 Tree are doing and saying, hey, we need to get involved there. 546 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.719 But I think we're already moving down the path, I think what will accelerate 547 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:21.760 it, and this is I think a common theme in our conversation here today 548 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.159 is just clarity from a regulatory perspective. I think that's going to be the 549 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:32.119 real accelerant here to you know, enacting real change not just within the ETF 550 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:37.880 space, but just across the entire asset management complex. Do you see eventually 551 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.840 that some of these ETFs and I don't know if this makes sense, but 552 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.639 go on chain they become tokenized where it's a part of the global twenty four 553 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:50.920 to seven trading on the blockchain one hundred percent. I mean, I think 554 00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.440 I mentioned this before. Tokenization, in my opinion, is where this is 555 00:42:54.559 --> 00:43:00.920 all heading and all goes far is to say that I think ultimate ETFs themselves 556 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:07.519 again will be replaced by token is securities. And that's that's what I'm saying. 557 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:13.119 Mean, we're already seeing that from with these tokenized money market funds. 558 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:17.719 You know, ultimately, what it's about is it's about efficiency. It's about 559 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:22.840 cutting out intermediaries, right, fee takers. That's what tokenization brings to the 560 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.559 table, and I think that's attractive to asset managers. They want to cut 561 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:31.440 out those intermediaries, right people who are taking fees both from them and the 562 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:37.079 end clients. So yeah, I think ultimately we will. This is all 563 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.559 heading towards tokenization. What's the timeframe? Who knows? You know, we're 564 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:44.440 probably on a decade plus type timeframe with that, but I think that's where 565 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.679 we're heading. I was just about to ask you, like, is it 566 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.519 too early for you guys to start game planning on this and how would that 567 00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:53.679 change your jobs? If it's a twenty four to seven market look and asset 568 00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:58.880 management things are always evolving, so I think we have to evolve with them. 569 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:04.199 That's why I'm a big belief or that even I'll just take my business, 570 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.599 the registered investment advisory business. If there's an advisor listening to this and 571 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:13.960 they just completely believe crypto is a scam, you know they can't stand it. 572 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:19.199 I don't care. You have to educate yourself as an advisor because your 573 00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:22.039 clients are going to be asking for it if nothing else, are gonna have 574 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.079 questions about it. You need to be able to intelligently speak to that. 575 00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:30.440 We've talked about all these large asset managers getting involved in the space. This 576 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:34.199 is not going away. I always say that whether you believe in it from 577 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:39.599 an investment thesis perspective or not. The underlying blockchain technology and what we're seeing 578 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:45.280 with tokens is not going away, period. So you have one or two 579 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:46.840 options. You can either ignore it at your own peril, or you can 580 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.559 get educated on it. It's that simple. Absolutely. Maybe along the lines 581 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:57.760 of what you were talking about how this will change your business, are you 582 00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:01.719 exploring using blockchaining any way in the backs, in the back end of your 583 00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:07.079 business, improving things and whatever may be. Yeah, it's a great question. 584 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.440 Right now, the answer is no, there's nothing immediately that I can 585 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:15.119 look at where I think that would be beneficial. More so just because of 586 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:17.760 the side. We're a small boutique r I A. Right, if we 587 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.079 were if I was running a you know, trillion dollar asset manager, then 588 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:27.559 it would be a different story. But look, but again that I'm sure 589 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:31.239 will change as things go along. I think a good example of that would 590 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:37.320 be something like chat GBT right in artificial intelligence. That is something that we 591 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:42.360 are starting to leverage within our business, and so as technology changes, I 592 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.760 think you have to look at that technology and implement it where it makes sense. 593 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.760 For sure, you know, with the ETF success and boy, I 594 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:54.239 mean all these big players, big names that we mentioned, Black Row, 595 00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:59.480 Fideli and so forth. Do you think this stigma is entirely gone, all 596 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.760 the ft X fallout and all the nonsense that took place there. It is 597 00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:09.000 definitely behind us, like we've gone to a higher plateau and it's forward looking 598 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:14.679 now and nobody's looking back. I don't know. I mean that dirty laundry 599 00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:20.800 is always going to be there. I think that it's probably been marginalized more 600 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.880 to a certain extent because of the success we've seen from spot, Bitcoin, 601 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:30.800 ETFs and the big players getting involved in crypto now. But you know, 602 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.760 look, Tony, any industry is going to have it's good and bad players, 603 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:43.679 unfortunately. Yeah, and in an emerging industry such as crypto, it 604 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.239 is going to be you know, it's fertile ground for fraud. It just 605 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:52.480 is that doesn't make the industry bad. It's just that those are things that 606 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.920 need to be worked through. And I think that's one of the things that's 607 00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:59.719 been lost here over the past several years is it's real easy to focus on 608 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:02.920 the bad behavior and some of the fraud and some of the things that have 609 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.239 taken place, and I'm not saying those should be ignored, but it's really 610 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.280 easy to shine a big light on those and not focus on all of the 611 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:15.400 positive things occurring in the space. And I've always said, you know, 612 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:21.440 look, I have been interacting with people directly in the crypto space for I 613 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:28.480 guess about seven or eight years now, and these are just on the whole. 614 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:32.639 These are some of the smartest people that I interact with in any aspect 615 00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.880 of what I do. That tells me something when I see the caliber of 616 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:43.239 individual who is operating in this space. Now, that doesn't mean that really 617 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:47.280 smart people can also commit fraud, right, maybe that happens or do things 618 00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:52.000 they shouldn't be doing. But I'm just telling you that the level of intelligence 619 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:57.480 I see, the caliber of talent in the crypto industry, to me is 620 00:47:57.559 --> 00:48:00.599 mind boggling and it's not something that I can ignore when I see that. 621 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:06.880 This isn't some fringe you know, you have, you know, low caliber 622 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.199 players involved in the space. We're talking some of the smartest, brightest minds 623 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.599 probably in the world involved here now, So you just can't ignore that. 624 00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:20.159 In my opinion, Yeah, absolutely, And I've spoken to quite a few 625 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.320 who were in web one point, oh and two point Oho and are here 626 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:28.039 now guys obviously, Andresen Howard's the guys who a Netscape, Mike Belshie at 627 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:32.360 bitgo, who is at Google? And just many of these legacy tech guys 628 00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:37.119 are here building in web three. So to your point, a lot of 629 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.679 brilliant and smart people here. I know we're coming up one time. I 630 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.199 got some wrap up questions here for you. First is if you could create 631 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:52.360 your own metaverse, what would the theme be great my own metaverse? What 632 00:48:52.480 --> 00:49:00.480 would you put your oculus in? Go to? Probably something that features like 633 00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:07.559 a bunch of nineties alternative and grunge bands, right, so like you can 634 00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:13.599 walk around and attend a virtual Nirvana concert or I don't know, a virtual 635 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:19.039 Smashing Pumpkins concert or whatever, and maybe interact with other people who appreciate that 636 00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.480 same genre of music. I guess that's what I would create, but I 637 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:28.039 don't know. I prefer living in reality, so I'm not a big metaverse 638 00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:34.480 person, but maybe that'll change. Well, it sounds like your nineties alternative 639 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.639 grunge grund rock fan, because it was gonna be one of my rapid fire 640 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:39.679 questions, and I'm a big fan as well. I still listen to my 641 00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:45.159 Pearlo jam Stone Temple Pilot and they want and so forth, let's jump to 642 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:51.360 a favorite rapid fire favorite food. Favorite food without question is going to be 643 00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:55.519 spaghetti and meatballs. Okay, but it has to be homemade Italian style, 644 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:01.239 so I obviously have an Italian background. My mom's probably one of the best 645 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:06.000 cooks walking the face of the earth, and she makes this from scratch. 646 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:09.039 There's nothing that compares to it. That's awesome. And favorite musician, Well, 647 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:17.199 I guess your favorite band. Okay, so favorite band, I guess 648 00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:22.519 I would probably give you. I give you two. I would say I've 649 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:27.119 always had I just I love The Cure right, which they span the eighties 650 00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:30.920 into the nineties, so always love them. Somebody more recent, maybe Cage 651 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.159 the Elephant, who their friend of mine, because I'm actually going to go 652 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.880 to their concert later this summer, which I can't wait for. But I'll 653 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.800 also I'll plug there's a new indie band I don't know that they're new like 654 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:51.000 this year, but over the past several years called New Constellations who I went 655 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.039 to their concert it was like last August or September. They were amazing, 656 00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:00.679 one of the best live performances I've ever heard, and so over the past 657 00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.559 year, I've been wearing their their songs out. I gotta check them out. 658 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.199 I'll check them out after this interview. If we're checking home. Favorite 659 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:15.760 movie movie, I mean, I'm a sucker any any mob movie. I 660 00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:21.599 mean, obviously Godfather, we can go Donnie Brasco, Casino, any of 661 00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:27.760 those. I'm a sucker for something more maybe mainstream flick. I'd go Gladiator 662 00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.239 if you remember that. I always liked with Russell Crow. Always loved that 663 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:34.400 movie. Just a great just to go watch, like on a big screen 664 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.559 or in the theater. I think tough to beat that one. Yeah, 665 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:42.920 I'm a big fan glad Here and mobster movies too, of Goodfellas, Casino. 666 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:45.800 It's a good fella all of them. I mean I could watch those 667 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:50.960 on a loop. Yeah. Favorite book, but you know what, it's 668 00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.119 funny. I read a tremendous amount. But I'm not a big book fan. 669 00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:58.800 So like I read. I mean, I'll read academic white papers and 670 00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:00.920 all that. I'm just not a big a fan of reading books. This 671 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:06.119 may sound I hope this doesn't come off wrong. I think part of it 672 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.239 is I come across so many people who all they do is read books, 673 00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:12.719 but they're not actually living. We talked about the metaverse earlier. They're not 674 00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.639 actually like living in reality, right, So somebody will read like these self 675 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:20.320 help books on I don't know how to start a business or whatever, but 676 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:23.320 they're not actually doing any of it. Or you're reading all this history, 677 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.840 you're reading how other people live their lives, but you're not actually living yours. 678 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:30.360 So I hope that doesn't come across wrong. It's like, I appreciate 679 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.480 people who love good books. Obviously, I've read plenty of books before, 680 00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:38.239 but I'm just not a huge I don't get excited over books. You know. 681 00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:43.599 Lately I've been feeling the same way. I've more listened to and this 682 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.360 may see like a whole business is coming across one but more podcasts and listening 683 00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:51.360 to getting stories that way and not some knowledge that way. And don't get 684 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.079 me wrong, you know, books, yeah, of course, I mean 685 00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:57.599 books have a place are very important, I think again to understand history we 686 00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:01.239 talked about earlier. I just it's not I devote my time. And when 687 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:04.719 you're not working at the ETF store, what are you doing for fun? 688 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:09.360 I don't know if I would call this fun. But I'm a big runner, 689 00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:13.719 so I actually love running. I mean I'll run, you know, 690 00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:16.679 five or six miles, four or five times a week. For me, 691 00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:22.880 it's just something. It's I'm an extremely thin individual. I don't do it 692 00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:28.519 for anything cosmetically. It's more for me. I love going outside. It's 693 00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:31.119 a good way to clear the air. I love it from a metal standpoint, 694 00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:35.519 like you said, whether it's listening to music, putting, you know, 695 00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:37.440 listening to podcast, or even just running in the quiet. I love 696 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.800 it. So you know, I stay busy enough with you know, the 697 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.000 ETF store and the ETF Institute and the podcast and all that that I don't 698 00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:50.840 have a ton of time for hobby. So it's really you know, family 699 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:54.559 first, and then obviously everything with a business, and then I enjoy running. 700 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:59.880 So I guess i'd be the hobby nate. Absolute pleasure chatting with you, 701 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.519 and I appreciate your insights and knowledge, and we'll have to have you 702 00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:07.239 back on once Easy Theorem Spotty TMS go live. But thank you so much 703 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:08.840 for joining me. Happy to do that. This was a lot of fun. 704 00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.519 Thank you, Tony