Hello, and welcome to episode number one thirty four of the Chief Steaks and
Controllers podcast. Coming at you a little later than usual, but there's a
good reason, I promise you, and as soon as we get right into
it, you'll understand what that is. My name is Jason Finelli, and
I am the video game and competitive gaming insider for Fox PHL The Gambler one
or two point five FM fourteen eighty AM iHeartRadio. Wherever you get your podcasts,
you can download and listen to this right now. And this is a
special episode. I don't think I've ever done an episode like this before.
I have had interviews, I've had interviews that go longer than one segment.
I've had guests for the entire show, but I don't think I've ever done
an actual episode long interview. It's going to be quite a quest and that
it's appropriate that the first time I ever do this is with the folks who
made Wrestle Quest. Megacat Studios is back on Cheese, Steaks and Controllers,
and we're going to talk about the game because that launch is finally knocking on
the door. James dan zach Manko back with me here on Cheese steaks and
controllers talk about wrestle quest gentleman, how's it going, good man? Well,
I'm excited to come back where huge fans of cheesecake can control. You
can see how he ended up here. I I a cheese steak, cheesecake.
I don't call him what every wanted on the show, Martin murpetin the
better find it all? That's correct, Amen to that. So last time
we saw each there was Pax East. Zach was doing his very a very
good uh professional wrestling uh in that in that boxing ring that you got.
Yeah, um, how did that feel? Getting into the ring. It's
as opposed to just watching from before, so honestly great, Like just even
when we had so for those I don't know, at PAXI East, we
had a real ring on site and we had real um indie pro wrestlers there.
Um when the wrestling wasn't going on, you know, we were in
the ring hanging out. We had a photo boot set up and just being
in the ring between the ropes up you know on a stand, it does
make you just want to like bounce off the road, throw your friends around,
you just get giddy being in there. Um. So yeah, it
was definitely a blast. And then we did do some you know, some
actual pro wrestling. We got a skip going on where my arch nemesis had
stole the game and wasn't going to release it, but we managed to defeat
him. So yes, nothing says wrestling like, let's determine the ownership of
this ip or this property then with a wrestling match. The only the only
other thing that Trump's stat is custody of a child. We've done that,
ay about eighteen years ago. So James, you're watching this match, You're
watching Zach, you know, do his thing in the ring, and you
have to be half excited and half oh my god, I hope he doesn't
hurt himself. We have too much work to do between now all this right,
You know, it's funny we take so many risks and never crossed my
mind and at no point that I think Man of Zach breaks his neck would
happen. Let's keep thinking, go Zach finally living our dream in there.
You know, if you cly wrestle fied ourselves. What if I told you,
Jason that wrestle Quest was actually the prequel to Zach actually becoming a wrestler,
and the game is a second to that that that would be the most
unique indie wrestling story for the last couple of years. I feel like,
if this game ends with Muchacho Man, Randy Santo's actually being Zach Manko and
it's just like this live shot or he's the one playing with the zoys at
the end, opens the door and he's like it is screaming, Oh man,
that's a great idea. There's your DLC pitch right there, Zach.
We're launching Zach's career. Now were they Were they local wrestlers to the Boston
area? Did you bring them from other parts of the country? How'd you?
I noticed one of them at least I've already seen in my playthrough.
Uh he's standing. Where was he? Was he at the Macho Man statue?
I think? Yeah? Yeah? So they right? Caliro? So
are they were they local Boston or friends of yours? Like? How'd you
find them? So Cal is a friend of ours? They's are friends of
ours? So Cal we met way back through bookings. His dad, David
has been like a career like wrestling community ambassador. He's just one of these
bookers that everybody loves. He just treats talent really well. He just is
really consistent guy. Love that and Cow's on the come up and we just
we met David, we just clicked immediately and he's loved like our kind of
approach to like talent forward, transparency and the TAKERI Dy driven deals and he
was like, this was great. Not a lot of those all the time
in wrestling. Let's find more ways to work together. And as we got
to know Cow, we like loved him. He's like a fanny pack gimmick,
which you can imagine as a retro gaming base, like retro company.
We have a soft spot for fanny packs. And then Vinnie Vinnie League Glamrock,
who was there. So Vinny was the original trademark copyright owner for the
name Wrestling Quest, so he had an app he was working on. It
was intended to connect all of the different independent wrestling events into one place.
And it's funny like Vinny was working on that app while we were working in
the game and both using the name. We just made a put the barn
like upside down like reverse Mortgar at our houses, placed a giant bad Vinnie
was like, every once in a while work on the zapp of my free
time. And after many love letters and emails and phone calls eventually to his
employer to get a hold of him. We're able to come to terms on
the wrestle Quest trademark, so we became we became friends. It's funny that
he's actually from Northern PA, but Vinny's like a good friend of us now,
like I like love. Then he was just talking to him this morning,
and we knew we wanted something with Cal and Vinnie to connect as like
our two retros themed wrestlers. Like if you look at the Vinnie glam Rock's
backstory, he's like electrocuted by Nintendo controller to become a wrestler. Pretty good
stuff. But we just knew they had to be together at some point.
So when we had our wish list item granted through sky bound up having the
ring live at Pax East, which was a feat in and of its own.
Getting through all the insurance requirements, the paperwork, and getting all the
enforcers like comfortable with the idea of Zach wrestling everybody like, um, you
know, we basically decided we wanted those folks to be there, and then
we wanted to get like top performing indie talent that for a casual wrestling audience
packs didn't get excited. And there's some folks that are like JT. Dunn,
who's like top three unsigned independent talent. Yeah right now, he's awesome.
You know. Um Zach actually has like a JT. Dunn collection on
his hard drive. Really that's true of his matches, though maybe it's Becca.
Actually we have different collections for different reasons. I'm just a fan of
his Helism's like he's just a master heal. Yeah, he's my favorite.
Heel at paxis, Like I was dying every time he was like calling out
Yoshi or making like you know, Pokemon, You're never going to catch them
all. Like I was just so into all of his ad hoc like he
healss life, Like he was just great, you know, awesome performer.
But it's like we're just fans of wrestling, And so I made Wrestling Quest
and as we got to go through like the series of booking, it was
a lot of fun being able to work with David and some local promotions kind
of cherry pick, you know. Also we got to ask them like who,
like which of them are wrestling and gaming fans and like that intersection was
key and which is plenty of hands to choose from. Not to mention a
little mean Kathleen. I don't want to like go let her go unoticed.
She was hilarious. I remember distinctly locking eyes with you, Jason, whenever
we were watching watching their first card. But yeah, it was, it
was. It was a lot of fun. I'm really glad to pick that
up. That was. I would say top five proudest moments of being at
Megacat would be like looking over and seeing the team respond to like the crowd
of people, like going like wrest soul quest, so quest like that was.
It was pretty wild, man, And it's um it's the unifying energy
of wrestling right Like it was just like too much fun for people to ignore
all these like laps wrestling fans that had probably not watched wrestling in a long
time. We're just like vacuumed into the entertainment factor and uh, it was
just awesome. It was so much fun to be part of it. I
wish every event we did was like that. I was just saying to the
team, I don't want to go to Pack's West this year because there's no
wrestling ring. What's the point, all right? Well, I mean you
could always resurrect backstage assault and just starts through and like like just put a
circle down and do hardcore in the parking lot. Maybe it's like a like
a fiery totally. I'm sure they would. If you want to talk insurance
requirements, Oh dear, so one thing real quick, I do want to
I think a special mention. The one wrestler who sticks out in my head
besides Zach of course, was the Was he the Angel of Love? Was
he cupid? Or I still think about that Kim Back and I'm like,
man, I wish I could see that a little more prevently. Who talk
to me about that guy? He's excellent. Look, get up the name
of that tag team right now? So they're through the heart, that's right,
Yeah, they're so good. Actually have an autographed date by ten from
the event somewhere. Yeah that that that was really cool? Did The entrance
was great? Right? It was just so good man excellent. So coming
out of packs East, I have to say two things. The crowd,
like you said, was electric, And there was always a crowd at your
booth, whether it was in line for the photos or when you were doing
the wrestling matches. They were people watching through the glass and the catwalk.
You were in prime position there. I don't know if you intended that,
but that was prime spots where people could still watch up above. It seemed
like excitement was high, and overall opinion of people I spoke to on the
floor and articles that I read after the fact was positive. Is that what
you took away too or were there some were there some things that maybe were
said to you or whatever that you you thought, Okay, this is something
we need to work on or what we need to focus on going forward.
We did get some feedback that was constructive, but it's good. Most of
it was like high fives and like heartwarming wrestling stories and mail for Zack's wrestling
career. All right. It was honestly, it was a that'll be the
first and maybe only ever trade show we go to where we just have fans
in line, just super hype, just telling us how excited they are about
the game. Because normally when we're at a trade show, one of the
main reasons we're there is to collect live, like dynamic feedback from like expert
players and looking ways to improve the game and see what we can learn from
these these like pre launched showings and because the rest request had been through so
many like fi fistfuls of focused groups and play sessions and events, it was
like it was like finally ready for its main event, right Like it didn't
just show up for Paxiast that year. We already brought it to two other
Pax East and you know we worked on it for a while. So this
is this is where you went all out. This was no doubt, all
out, for no doubt, all out trademark that the owners I don't own
all that the people who want all out a lot. I'm just saying the
two words leave you alone, Tony um. So my now have a done
that. I understand you are going to Comic Con this week, which is
part of the reason why we have we have met where we're meeting today,
they will be at San Diego Comic Con. If you're listening to this and
you will be to check them out. I am the sky Bound booth.
I imagine you have demos there is that what will be? Do they have
a wrestling ring for you this time? But I can't spoil what we have
this time not a wrestling ring, but it's pretty dope. I think.
I think if you're a wrestling fan. There's gonna be a whole lot of
a whole lot of stuff to do them all right. Making a note,
since I won't be at Comic Con, ask after we are done talking today,
after I stop recording. Um, that's awesome cool. Um so yeah,
so Thobe at San Diego Comic Con this week, you sold him at
Paxy's launch is coming up soon. August the ninth, We are knocking on
the door. How do you feel going into the final month? You're in
the final month now before launch, five years in the making. Here we
are. What are both of you? What are your first thoughts when you
think, man, we are we are at the finish line? Well,
August eighth, actually wait, sorry, yeah, yeah, okay, gave
you a day. I would say I'm mostly worried about Zach's wrestling career these
days. The game. The game's ready, it's tests, it's localized,
it's balanced. We've been oiling and doing push ups and just smack talking each
other and just going hard for enough cycles now that we feel like the fans
are ready to to get some wrestling. Question. So it's I can't wait
for Andy to push the button. Since Andy released still the games, but
um, yeah, doubt. Yeah. Everyone everyone's good at something, you
know, Shawn Michael's and that gift dude. Yeah, And it's like for
years he just stretching the fingers out, like make sure it's ready, you
know, lining up over the button, tapping race keys. But it's like
Mario teaches typing, but there's just one key, you know, the wrestle
Quest launch keyboard. And he's been pre training this the whole time. Um
comes into the office. He slap at himself with the cheeks. Got this,
no doubt. You know what I'm most excited about for rest Requests and
this I guess it's also for Zach, but for anyone listening. We just
packed rest Requests with Easter eggs and fan moments like so Daisy, and I
just cannot wait for people to find them and share them, because the few
that have little bits here and there would league or we share them with you
know, first party partners or promotional partners. Like the reaction has been so
incredibly positive, Like it's it's just very obvious that it's crafted with care by
wrestling fans and RPG fans, and I just can't wait for people to share
some of these insane things we packed in UM for no good reason other than
like love for it, like you've our commercial reason, and uh, I
just can't wait. I can't wait for like you know, Twitter to blow
up with people finding some of these really wild things that we brought to life
in the game. Zach, you want to do want to comment on that?
UM? Just as far as emotions leading up to launch UM, You're
right, it has been this multi year long development, so it is kind
of like very exciting, very sweaty time. I'm sure once it's actually launched,
it'll be like you know, like Bitter Sweet's like finishing like a movie
or a TV show or something. You're like wow, like you know,
it's almost like how what But I know that Wrestle Quest, we've definitely wrestle
Fight ourselves and I can't imagine the next project or excited to see the next
project and taking that energy like into it, taking the mindset of like Wrestlification
and you know, stronger and more dramatic, more story, you know,
more impact, more wild moments, that type of thing, and applying that
to you know, a game that has nothing to do with wrestling, and
see what happens Okay, so you show that that actually answered a question I
had later on. If you're if you would concept in your next game,
if you have a choice, would it be trying to adapt something else to
an RPG or try to adapt wrestling to something else? So I think you
just answered my question. Oh man, Yeah, honestly like both. Like
I love RPGs, you know, definitely favorite genre. I don't have as
much time to play them now as it did throwing up and whatnot. But
I mean, obviously that's one of the goals of wrestle Quest, was taking
that beloved JRPG formula and then updating the parts that have an aged so well,
exploring something that's completely new, you know, wrestle Quest is it's all
it's wrestling world, so you're not in another yet another like kind of fantasy
world. You know, it's this entirely new set up and everything. But
I would love to do another RPG, and just as we wrestle fight RPGs,
you know, maybe there's something else you can adapt to that formula.
But I think the lens that we did it through with wrestle Quests, you
can take sort of the spirit behind it, if not the actual you know,
boots to the ground tactics, right, James with au there, I
wish every game we did was wrestling base wrestling inspired. I would say that
there is a couple of different times throughout this process, Zack and I talked
about just rebranding like Wressell Cats Studios and like we've opted talked about the wrestle
vacation and how like I mean really, um, wrestling can be used across
any mechanic, any genre, and there's nothing preventing us from even aside from
what we hope is Russel quest too, like everything can benefit from a little
bit of wrestling powder. Agree with that at all? I thought, I
wonder if wrestle powder, um, almost's a powder and not you know shot,
We're okay, uh. I want to add to that, Jason.
I was pretty bummed out to see that the domain name wrestlvania was taken because
I was like, that was going to be good one. But well that
and you might be able to console a fellow Indy. I think you're still
in the studio. H the guacamelea team because they basically did that with Luja
Libre. They made an eventuvania. Um, but yeah, Wrestlvania. Oh
God, I like that. I like that a lot. Um, I
was actually I mean, I had been following the game, so I knew
what you were coming into, what you were you were trying to do here,
But I was surprised with how many people came away impressed that, like
the whole I'm not a wrestling fan, I'm an RPG fan and this still
works for me. Right, that's sort of opinion um prevalent throughout packs East.
I know I've read it again after this most recent preview run. What
last week I think in Bargo was, if I remember correctly, Um,
did you expect that? Like, were you hoping for that sort of reaction
where you get the non wrestling fans to play the RPG? You figured you
had the wrestling fans to try out the RPG format. I feel like,
if I have to, it would be easier to convince a wrestling fan to
try this then it would be to convince an RPG fan to try this.
Does that make sense? Um? Do you think you have done that so
far before we've gotten you know, since we first started the game. Um,
I don't know. I don't want to speak for Zach. He's a
whole lot to say on this topic. But and he'll beat you up.
He's a wrestler now, dude. Trust me. He lets everybody know.
I just break their chairs before they get to work. A d it's a
drive any minutes to fill its gas tank these days because you keep cause of
trouble with every gas station attendant. He just greets people with an Okada elbow.
Jimmy Johns will deliver to the office. You know, everyone's very hunger
here. But that the you know, the the origin of Wrestle Requests design
was how do we take like a genre we have so much reverence for that
we like, were raised by, that we love and we know as a
player what goes into progression and systems and balancing and like, just to make
a good RPG or a great RPG it's the goal. It's like, it's
massive undertaking. And you know, we decided from a product standpoint that if
we were going to double or triple down on Wrestle quest as we did,
that, we had to make it accessible to someone who doesn't like wrestling.
So we've been focusing on since day zero, how do we make it a
great RPG through wrestling lens and the wrestling characters come to life and we can
actually introduce people to wrestling. And I say, like top five produs moment
for Make a Cat. One of them was the ring And one of them
that I think shared with a lot of the team members is we had a
like a member of the press at the first pack. Heats have played it
that like discovered wrestling through wrestle Quest and he wrote he wrote this as awesome
like fanmail later it was like months later and he's like, I took your
advice and I started with the WrestleManias and he's like, can I just subcribe
to subscribe to Peacock. He's like, now I'm like consuming every Sunday a
few hours of it for fun. And he's like, I just love this
so much. He's like, you brought all the fun that I find in
like anime through this larger than life instead of real characters. And he's like,
I just can't deal with that. Plus a nostalgia. He's like,
I feel like I missed out on twenty years of wrestling and you like saved
me from losing twenty more, like thank you so much. It was just
this really great email. I remember showing the team, I'm like, well,
I guess we won voice. You know, like, even if we
don't ship the game, what else can we say? We changed someone's lives,
We change the lives around here? What do you do with your game?
You know? And the team was like, we're shipping the game though,
you guess of course, yeah, no doubt. I'm like, I'm
like, as you guys, come down, We're just here to evangelize wrestling
fans, you know, Like it's but it's it's like a you can't make
that stuff up. It's like some of my favorite memories of being at Megacat
have been these like profoundly cool fan moments for people today they proposed or their
wives playing whatever games are they. You know, all all those things are
what you really remember way later after the medic critic, after the sales,
and and it's like the the idea that we introduce people to something we love
so dearly, like that is just amazing. So exactly. I don't mean
it to keep down of that. I know I know how much you care
about all these things. Please like share your sentiment totally. I mean,
from from the ground up, the game is always meant to appeal to both
audiences, wrestling fans j RPG fans, And it's weird because you know,
we were very shocked that rest of the pro wrestling hasn't been explored through an
RPG, you know, prior to this um just because there is so much
shared blood there between the larger life characters, the storytelling, you know,
these betrayals, dramatic reveals, even a boss fight. A boss fight and
RPG. I mean that's like a pay per view for wrestling, yep,
so there's there's you know, obviously all of those correlations are explored. Sou
I was also pleased to see people come up and like say like, well
I love RPG's but never never watch wrestling, and then play the demo at
the booth and the come away like, but this is awesome. I can't
wait. You know, maybe I should check out wrestling now. And um
So, anytime someone's playing, I always preface like RBG fan, wrestling fan,
both neither, and no matter what they seem, to come away like
just pump the game. So happy to hear that. Yeah, now in
in your wrestlification of the JRPG, I do want to talk about that panel
too. At Paxy's was excellent. Um, did you find that there was
a part of pro wrestling, like a certain section whatever it may be,
that didn't fit as well into the RPG formula as you kind of hoped it
would. Like you have obviously wrestlers, you have moves, you have the
pin mechanic, which I also want to talk about. That's great, um,
Managers as a passive fourth party member, was there any facet of pro
wrestling that you were like, well, we can incorporate it this way,
but it may not be to its full potential? Does that make sense?
Was so how I'm getting at there? Um? I think there's some stuff
that we probably could have taken like to the next level, and that had
we had we had to do over a wrestle quest too, that will definitely
you know address like. Um, obviously, wrestling is very physical, and
I do think that the combat and wrestle Quest reflects that well while maintaining a
turn based framework. Um, but I think there's there's additional things we could
do to make it, you know, pop off even more in the next
go round. James, You know, we we have over ten thousand hand
drawn sprites and wrestle quests just a crazy amount of art and you know,
part of like the spectacle and fun and the just insane handcrafted moment. I
wish we had more in budget and timeline for that. I could probably have
worked on rest the Quest forever. So I take it with a grain of
salt, but I'd like, I love the setup. I love like,
you know, cutting, cutting promos and you know, having these big moments,
and I wish we had enough budget improven market for what everyone said was
not going to land to be able to capture things like you know, crazy
camera finishing moments and like these, like the dramatic you know scenes and dramatic
moments within a match of a boss battle and actually really zooming in and having
just insanely cool additional animations, which we already did a lot for that.
But it's true, it's like, I feel like that's just um as a
wrestling fans, and I could have used even more of like just pour that
sauce until it was over the cup. You know. Yep, that's fair.
No, that's completely fair. And again, with since your hand rolling
these animations, that the game's already taken five years, you don't want it
to take five more for something with eighty year old James the egan all of
a sudden. So let's get into that panel that you had at Packs East
to rectification. The JRP was a restification of JRPG, jfication of pro wrestling
the name okay, restification of job. I thought it was a fascinating talk
that really got into like your philosophy behind this game. I loved the mentions
of Super Mario RPG, which, by the way, our time has come.
That game is finally back after twenty seven years. So I remember seeing
that trailer and being like the Wrestle Quest, guys are gonna love this.
Like I cried. I don't know about you, but I cried. But
anyway, um, I cry every day. My eyes are welling again.
Don't bring it up during the interview, Jason. You know I feel about
Gino Mallow every time you do it. It's so good. Uh. And
it looked great. Okay, Yeah, I could do an entire interview on
that, and you didn't. You guys didn't make that. We're talking about
the game that you made. Um, So for those who weren't at the
panel, or you're doing it again at San Diego, right, bigger and
better bigger and better, more wrestlers this time too. So for oh oh
so for some poor sap who was at back ceased and wasn't at San Diego
Comicon me, or won't be at San Diego Comicon, talk to me about
what you might touch on here that you've added since the last time, or
maybe expanded upon certain topics that were addressed in that padel that you've had some
time to like flesh out this time. Well, zact before you take over,
I wanted to add that Sergeant Slaughter, Jake the Snake, Jeff Jarrett
are going to be giving the panel with us. Oh that's awesome Comicon.
Yeah, and uh, you know Serge has been making his act with out
of push ups constantly. Good, yeah, lots of that. Yeah.
And then just in general, um, you know, we're able to go
a little bit further behind the curtain for like how these folks were involved more
than just licenses, Like we've been really specific and that like some of the
talent um, you know, we've actually been able to apply their creative and
some of their insights on what is like actually being on the road or what
it's like living through this independent depressional circuit. Basis, and they definitely asked
some stories to tell, so those folks, those folks are part of the
panel this time. And then the head wrestle father himself, Zack, please,
you know, talk us to talk a little bit about the Rustification panel
because we just got done redoing it, like the three taking all the different
I want to say, like fan service moments or questions and requests people have
had, and making sure that that's front and center to give them all the
other raditional wish lists information they wanted to see. That's fair. Yeah,
I think as far as you know what's been expanded on or what's been added
since Pass East besides what James mentioned, really the focus on now on the
section about JRPG like tropes or staples and how we wrestle fied them. Like
we talked a little bit about the combat, but really the idea of restification
is making it, you know, adding wrestling, so making it bigger,
you know, sweatier, more spectacle. So something even as simple as opening
a locked door in a RPG, it's this mundane mechanic you find everywhere,
So how do you wrestlefy that? How do you turn that into something that's
a delight for the player, and we did in Wrestle Quest is instead of
locked doors, you find tables blocking your path, and if you know anything
about wrestling, you know that table's getting smashed. So instead of finding a
key, you find this token that summons an NPC wrestler that you pick up
and slammed at the tables. So now when you open a door, it's
this. You know, it's this funny, awesome animation if your guy pile
driving it, and it's different for whatever lead character you have to So I
mean, even that little bit mixes it up and adds that flair. But
again it's about taking these like kind of stay at elements and amping them up
wrestlefying them. I love that table spot. By the way, the first
time I did it in the in the Pink Shop. It's early in the
game, so anybody who's who's gonna play it, that's not a big spoiler.
But oh man, as soon as I did that for the first time,
but I realized what was actually happening, I'm like wow. And I
played that in the demo at PAX season I did it again in the preview
build, and I don't know if I just forgot where I put it out
of my mind, but to see it again, I was like, oh,
yeah, this is still awesome even the second time. So I loved
I love that mechanic there. I also like that you have two stories going
on. I didn't remember that. So Randy Santos Mucaco Man voiced by Patrick
Kikey, is the main guy. He's he's the guy that you've had.
He's front and center in the posters and everything else. But there's a whole
other side story going on here, which I feel like is more rooted in
wrestling history. I'm getting I'm sure this is intentional. I'm getting major Heart
Family vibes from this other story. There's a dungeon in the basement, it's
in the north, There's a whole all these different sort of things that are
given me this edge. So is this like, is the is the Muchaco
Man's story like the RPG story, and then the other story like the wrestling
history story. I imagine they're going to blend at some point, But how
how is that? How was like writing two different stories to come together?
Were did you intend to do that or did you try to put a little
bit of history into both? A might making sense here, I feel like
I'm not making any sense here. I don't know. Just the Logan story
seems like it's more steeped in wrestling history for the before Jack action. I'm
saying, Becazach that can go deep on this, But I would argue that
there's many great legacy wrestling families, like sure, the Roads and the Funks,
and it's like, you know, Bring definitely intended to like like the
Logan families intended to be this homegrown wrestling dynasty. And also when we talked
about laying out the world map, but the different styles of wrestling and the
regions of wrestling, and you know, we had to have something with the
great history of Canadian wrestler could just so many of them, right, And
all that said, we did sign bred Hart, then we had to terminate
the agreement, so that sucks. Thanks Jason, But oh, I don't
know, I'm just messing around, but it's it's yeah, I mean,
it was like our part of our original product was was to have like something
representing all these pillars, and then when we signed Brett, we went really
deep on Brink. And then whenever Brett was terminated with wwwe purchasing out everything.
We had to make some really hard changes, and we decided we loved
like the Locan family too much, so we just we just made sure that
there was enough about it that was not just heart based. And and there's
so much to that too. There's probably fifty wrestling the families we found that
are multigenerational, that are just these rich, kind of bleeding grounds of just
crazy wrestling talent that the industry wouldn't be the same without them. And there's
just an epic number of Canadian wrestlers, like just crazy good talent that comes
out of Canada. And oh yeah, I mean it's like it's probably ten
pages of content on Wikipedia for Canadian wrestlers. Like if you know Chris Jericho,
it's a great one, right. It's like, you know, there's
actually a number of wrestling schools and independent wrestling feds through Canada, which is
not a great slog for traveling. He actually gets a folks from my Jim
the wrestle in Nova Scotia and but you know, locally here and pitching Jim.
But it's it's definitely am like I would say like celebrated sports on hockey,
you know, but it's a right, it's definitely like a celebrated Canadian
event. But Zach, I know you know the logans personally. I know
you actually went to school with Brink, so yeah, yeah, totally got
stretched in the same gyms. Um. So, as far as the difference
between we chatch Himan and Brink Logan, we chatch hi Man is this storied
eide innocent like love wrestling his whole life, and his thing is that he
exists in constant cafe like for him, wrestling is all real, all the
time, um. Whereas Brink is very much in the know, like he's
a mid card jobber in his father's promotion and he does it even though he's
like very technically capable. He's actually a very you know, proficient wrestler.
He's willing to take on that role to help the family business out, like
he understands like Okay, these guys are you know hot right now, Like
sure, I'll help put them over. But it grates on him where he
wants to be a champion because he knows he is the better wrestler, whereas
Muchacha man um he wants to be a hero, like he sees these faces
on screen, he's like I want to be like that. I want to
be this super good guy. So for him, his journey is more about
how do I become this this hero his face without compromising that starry idealism,
like without you know, if it gets into the ins and outs of the
industry. How does he do that without compromising without losing his soul? Really
is kind of like the his narrative, whereas Brinks is more about, well,
how do I become a champion on my own terms? How do I
get the get the belt without you know, kind of shoving my family to
the side, letting the family business down. How do I spread my wings,
you know, without kicking dirt my family's face type of thing. So
they're sort of like opposite sides of the same coin Muchacha Man is very like
rash and bold and raisin, and that speaks to like his move set,
whereas Brank you know, is opposite colors, cool colors, calm, cool,
collected. He's professional um in his style is less grandiose and more technical,
wrestling based and everything. So and that that plays into the game mechanics
as well, which Joaman is more more like hard hitting, spread attack,
damage type things, whereas Brinks is more disabling attacks and I'll put you in
a submission. Hold add a deebuff that type of thing. Love. I
love that dichotomy too. There's two different, two different play styles. But
you also in the in the sections with Brink Logan, you have his brother
who is more of the hard hitter, so you still have that. And
then the sister shows up after a while. Um, she's interesting. She
she what what sort of uh rpg archetype? I guess were you thinking of
with her? Is she just more like a like a supporting for the other
two. She's got a couple of pretty good moves on her road. I
love the name saddle Sore. I love that it's star. Yeah. So
what were you thinking when you when you were developing the three family members next
to each other, trying to create a bit of a balance. So Selene,
we'll start with her. Um, she brings little sister and she's not
as involved with the family promotion. She's more of like an indie darling where
she, you know, runs the circuit. She goes from promotion promotion promotion,
and she has this whole cowgirl gimmick which does fit some of the Canadian
styles as well stampede, that's right. And as far as like what RPG
class she would fall into, there is a large playable cast and resequist.
It's twelve. Overall, she's what I would consider more of like a dualist
almost, where she has high agility and then a kind of high risk,
high reward maneuvers where a lot of her move set is based around counters.
So you know, you can activate a counter like that's your turn, and
then you basically entice the enemy to attack you. And you can do that
with different equipment and manager abilities and what not to draw fire to one specific
character. And she has pound set up, you know, where someone rushes
at her, she'll interrupt their move and then whip them into the ropes and
follow up with the back elbow or things like that. Um, the trade
off is that she's kind of squishy. She is like low HP, low
defense, So it's it's again it's all about that kind of like high risk,
high reward. And then how you play into that, you know,
do you double down and equip all those mechanics and all that equipment and those
managers to make those opportunities happen, or do you you know, take a
more measured approach and instead, you know, put heavy armor or put a
manager that can buffer defenses. That so if those you know, those setups
fail, she won't be as as as damaged. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no, go for it. I was gonna say, just to I know,
we talked about it a little bit. For those listening who haven't played
the game yet, I haven't seen a game yet. Managers are passive members
of your party who you can equip, essentially to give a buff to the
entire team. Give like like a park that runs, a passive park that
runs throughout the entire match. The first one you run into is the Alligator.
His name alludes to him like slimy, slimy, I mean, uh
so, and then you'll find more throughout the adventure that you can add to
your party. Equip one at the time, right, it's one one propt
one from battle, uh and then they provide past so go ahead. Sorry
yeah yeah no. The manager is great. Um. Quick side note,
some of the legends you can actually unlock as uh as managers love that.
Yeah, I love that. That's cool, um cool, Yeah, that's
that's awesome. So I want to get back into real quick. Some of
the mechanics in the game. I know we talked about the pin first off,
but before we get into that, you mentioned equipping the abilities and things
like that. I love the gimmick system. I think that's a really cool
way to implement. Like if a wrestler is a powerhouse, you can you
can know there are obvious, you know, perks and downsides to that,
and they are incorporated here. A technician is one and and so talk to
me about developing that system and figuring out a way to get these different wrestling
market types into an RPG. But not like as a class system. It's
a little more to it than that. That's definitely where it started out,
the idea of JRPG classes. You know, you have your your wizard or
your fighter, your thief, et cetera. And that's reflected in the cast
a little bit like each one lends themselves to that to an extent. But
again, like that system is you know, it's been it's been done,
everyone knows it, it's recognizable. How do we wrestlefy it? So wrestling
you have again these these sort of archetypes where the powerhouse, big strong guys,
the high flyer. You know, these lucolibre, you know, deathstifying,
moves off the top rope and whatnotum. So we tied that into the
other combat mechanics for wrestle quests, most notably the hype meter. The hype
meter is peers in every battle and it's an indication of the audience's engagement with
the fight. So if you come in and you're just tapping the attack button
all the time on autopilot, like you know, like you used to do
an RPGs UM, the audience is going to get bored and that meter drains
out and then your enemies get stronger. But if you approach combat with you
know, a little bit of strategy, you can have that meter sway in
your favor instead. When you do, you get more damage, better experience
points, better loot after the battle. So it's all ties back into controlling
that. And the hype types are how you do that, you know,
and they determine how you generate height. So the powerhouse type will generate whenever
you attacks someone or whenever he you know, chaos someone, the technician whenever
he nails a button prompt or inflicts a status effect. So it's the idea
beyond restification is a player agency. Too many times in RPGs, you have
a limited sort of way to express your move set, and there's a little
crossover between the characters, and in some cases it might even seem like,
well, all my characters interchangeable at a certain point, like they're they're more
or less they can all do the same damage. There's no really, there's
no point to have anyone in my party restile guests. We really try to
give the player the freedom to choose their party and then choose their strategy in
combat. So you can just go for straight damage and hope Tom the hype
meter that way, or you know, you can choose your manager, choose
your equipment, choose your character. Is based on inflicting debuffs, and that's
a whole new strategy, and that's a whole new way to get that hype
meter pumped up again. It's all about giving players agency in a genre where
they typically don't have as much, right, Yeah, which makes a lot
of sense. Like I said, it feels more pro wrestling than it does
basic JRPT classes. And I find myself going into party building, like when
I'm crafting it to go to the next section of the game based on that,
Like, if this guy's going to be the technician, I need to
make sure he's you know, built like a technician or a powerhouse and stuff
like that. I really do enjoy that. So this pin mechanic, right,
I have. My only criticism of this game so far is that I
want the pin mechanic to be a solid one two three, like it has
been my entire life watching wrestling. But it doesn't work like that. Sometimes
you can do a little one two and then three, or if you're lucky
enough, you can get it a quick three count stuff like that. Um,
have you heard as other people said this to you about how it's not
the normal like normal like cadence, normal cadence, and whether or not it
took them some time to get used to that. I think more so than
the idea of like the cadence of the one two three, we spent a
lot of time thinking, even back to the first Packs East where we kind
of like debuted wrestle Quest in twenty twenty two to now in twenty twenty three.
Even since then, like you know, it's come leaps and bounds,
but tweaking the difficulty has been the major standing point there because you know,
as we play tests, we become experts and we're able to nail it,
and then we show it live and people are like, wow, this is
hard, and you know, we realized that fifty percent of people struggle with
it, and then make it easier and you know, add some other things
to make it feel nicer. So I think more so than matching that cadence,
it's been a it's a way of making it have good game feel first.
That's been our priority. Yeah, I would I would say there were
a couple of times where, even after I got the flow of it,
where I would miss um mostly on three I noticed a two count not on
purpose, I promise, and like I was like, oh wow, I
missed that, and it caught me by surprise, so I was a little
more engaged and ready for the next time the pin being able to pin in
general, how did you decide what enemies to pin and which enemies to not
Because some enemies I can just knock out, or some I can do this
pin mechanic. And are there benefits to pinning as opposed to knocking out?
Because I think I also noticed if I failed enough times, I just beat
them. So is there an added besides maybe like extra bonus at the end
to nailing that pin timing or did you think did you ever float the idea
of the pin is the only way you can beat them? Yeah, So
it comes back to the idea about balance for one. And then also,
I don't know if you'd call it quality of life or what, but if
we made every enemy pinnable, which was originally what we intended, we realized
battles would be way too long, sure, because it does add an extra
step where like, okay, now the enemy's down, Now I'm going to
go in and pin them. So we made it suggest enemies that are more
like wrestler wrestlers or wrestling based you would have to pin and normal sort of
like grunt type enemies you can defeat normally just by reducing their HP to zero.
So that was the first kind of step was like all right, like,
you know, how long do we want this game to be? Because
if battles are too long you need to pin every character all the time,
it's going to drag out. So we tried to have a mix, especially
early on when you're just learning and things like that mix of you know,
make it one to two rather than all three are mandatory pins. The other
other aspect of that, too, is that we also wanted to have more
ways than just pinning to defeat the wrestlers. So many abilities are based around
finishing moves instead, where if you can get your enemy fatigued we call it
is either when they're at low HP like sub twenty percent, or if it's
just the thing where you can add it as a status effect. There's a
lot of moves will fatigue your enemy. You know. They're like moves that
aim towards the gut or things like that. When they're in that fatigue state,
you can do a finishing move on them which has a chance to automatically
koe them. So it gets back to again the idea of wrestling. Sometimes
it's not always like a pin how you do it. Sometimes you know,
it's just you knock them out cold. So there's that, and that's a
whole other combat strategy to approach those enemies that need pinned. Yeah, okay,
yeah, I noticed like after a while the pinning mechanic did become a
little more natural. I don't want you to think I'm still stuck in the
cadence, but I also completely agree with you that if every enemy could be
pinned, the game would be bloated. So I'm glad whoever decided that,
whatever whatever team decided to pull back back on that have to show that restraint,
which I'm sure it was hard to do because it's a really cool thing.
That was who Arson shout Darson, um shout out there because that was
a that was the right call. Good. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Um So, last mechanical thing or last thing I want to get into kay
mechanically, But and then I have two more two more questions, one mechanically
and one story mechanically. Tag teams triple teams. Um, very cool way
to incorporate, uh, the tag team feel by just setting up for a
tag team and then as long as they're compatible being able to execute that team
move. What does that What does it take to become compatible in order to
unlock those moves? Because I noticed in the beginning I didn't have had tea
people on my team, but there wasn't the tag team move there. Do
they have to level up so many times together in order to create that that
tag team edge or do they have to be a certain level and then just
have those people in the party does that makes that Yeah, it's the latter.
You have to be at a certain level before they're available, and then
it depends on when those party members are together, because they will some will
come and go, others will be available at only at certain parts. Eventually
you know you have all of them at your disposal. But it, yeah,
it depends basically on individual power level and then story progress and then you're
making parties of three at once you have more than three, do you have
to like eventually select Yeah, So that's actually one of the one of the
things we actually don't talk about too much in panels or at the booth and
whatnot. There are several dungeons that have you splitting your party into multiple sub
teams. Interesting, so you know, like early on, I would say,
like you know, in the first quarter of the game, and there's
one where you have two parties of two. But eventually you get to the
point where you have three parties of three and there's different things where you know,
it's separate tracks in the same dungeon where you have to solve tandem puzzles
and things like that, And once you get to that point, you can
also assign a manager to each one of those parties. Obviously we had as
like save stuff like that for the late game once you're used to all the
mechanics, but um, you do encounter those, you know, a handful
of times route. Just for another sort of unique take on dungeons and RPGs,
are you switching at will? Or is there like you do an event
and then you switch the now you're switching at will because most of the time,
most of the time it requires like you know, you'll have Team A
you know, up on a catwalks or something, but there's something blocking their
way and teamb down in the ground can deactivate that and vice versa. I
got it. Okay, well that's cool. That's cool. Complex dungeons in
my wrestle quest, yes please, um yeah, that's exciting cool all right.
Uh So, my one question about story is I'm gonna go I'm gonna
talk about Randy Santos for a second because in my written preview, which you
can read at mmorpg dot com for those listening, went up last Thursday the
twelfth, I think it was, um, you mentioned he's always ink fabe
and there's dialogue between him and other characters, which someone mentions the writers and
he's like, writers, what are you talking about? And things like that.
I think the idea and if you don't want to talk about this,
I understand of exploring that moment in every wrestling's fans life where they realize what's
actually happening, right, Like that moment of realization that well it's not it's
not real, or it's it's scripted or whatever. I don't think using were
fake. I'm sure you guys don't either. Um, is that something you
plan to explore or is is that not something you wanted to do in this
first girl round? I love that idea. I love if that's something you're
gonna do, that's that's cool as shit. Um, I got to beat
myself. Oh but I just I wanted to. I wanted to make sure
I asked about that because it's something that definitely stuck out to me. Definitely.
Yeah. I mean, not not to give too much away, but
again, that's Randy's you know, entire character. You know, is is
this idea of Kfabe? You know it's for him, it's so real and
that and this this child I would like innocence he has with it's not even
so much highlike innocence it's more just like this purity he has with the sport
and the idea of being a hero. And obviously as he gets deeper in
the industry and he's going on this journey, that that idea, that innocence,
that purity gets challenged again and again. So eventually it comes down to
the point of him, yeah, sort of having that moment and then it's
like, well, where do you go from there? What do you do
with that? So, again don't want to get too much away, but
I think you'll be pleased when you have a chance to play the entire game.
Awesome, that's exciting. So San Diego Comic Con this week, and
then we're a couple of weeks out from launch. August eighth. I keep
wanting to say ninth. It's not the ninth, it's the eighth. August
eighth is when you can play wrestle Quest on everything even Oh, another thing
I wanted to ask you about. You guys are coming to Netflix. You
will be mobile via Netflix. You will be exclusive to the Netflix app.
So you load up the Netflix Apple on your phone, you find wrestle Quest,
you download it to your iPad, your iPhone ORR and and you can
play Wrestle Quest on the go. Um, talk to me a little bit
about how that came to be. I know that's relatively new. Last couple
of months. That was I think it was announced. What may I want
to say May or June that actually happened. What about Netflix as a mobile
carrier or mobile carrier, a mobile host for your game stuck out to you
not only you know, as a publisher, but also as like an alternative
to self publishing, if that makes sense. You know, they had a
kind of a call out throughout the industry looking for like narrative driven, like
story driven game projects, and somebody who was working on press for Wrestle Quests
on the behalf of sky betten was just working with them in like a collaborative
way of saying, hey, like there's this game we think he's check out.
It's called Wrestle Quests. Here's here's the hook, and here's the art.
And they just embraced it right away and they were just really excited about
adding it into the fold. So we're you know, for us, it's
um, it's a way to get wrestle Requests and more hands, more people.
You know, they brought more languages, more regions. Um, you
know, I can't wait to see how like that platform develops. In general.
I think I think there's a lot of new momentum and like the subscription
like World on the Future, Like I think I mentioned a lot of games
coming that way. Um, we didn't see it as something that takes away
anything either from the wrestling fans. I have to imagine a lot of folks
who are playing on mobile aren't aren't playing on Switch and vice versa. So
you know, it was kind of like serendipitous. I guess, you know,
some folks who were just wrestling quests fans brought it up and they kind
of sought it out. Yeah, now will that be touchscreen play control with
play both deadly touch screenplay? I'm not actually sure. I don't think there's
controller um functionality for the mobile port. We're kind of like watching them build
the Netflix platform. So we're like driving the car while the back the cars
being assembled. Right. Interesting, It's like it's like they're like I just
just shard that this morning with Zac as an analogy for how we operate Megact
driving with the car still no doubt. But but it's funny because like the
you know, the Neflix Games team was like five people and now it's like
fifty people or something. So they're just actively adding in all these layers and
layers of of kind of like feedback of like how fans are responding and how
to make bigger, better games and where they goes or we're excited to be
part of it at this phase because they just stacked up a ton of talent
and do all sorts of cool stuff. So it's it's been interesting to watch
though, because even since we started wrestle requests for the Netflix platform to now
that platform, that team has developed a great deal. Yeah, have they
been hands on in your or they just kind of let Yeah, they're super
hands on. Yeah, they have like a they have like a high high
expectation for a mobile expertise, which we don't have, like we're not a
mobile games company, right, So so that's been awesome. Um, they
definitely have like a north Star quality Standard two which made it so pretty good.
Awesome. Well, gentlemen, I really appreciate your time. I know
you're getting ready to go out to San Diego, so the fact that you're
able to sit down with me talk about your great game very much appreciated August
eighth, Wrestle quest on Everything. If you haven't pre ordered, or you're
not ahead of the game yet, get on it. Because if you're a
wrestling fan, an RPG and fan both or neither, I do think there
is something for you here. And Zac Manko and James Degan, I can
talk to you guys forever, but I know our time is coming up soon.
Wanted to make sure I said a proper farewell and thank you for coming
on, very excited to play your game, and good luck with everything.
I guess that's all I think I can say. Thanks Jason, thanks for
having us one wrestling fan to another. Yeah. Always a pleasure, always
a pleasure. Thanks guys, And with that that is the end of episode
number one thirty four of The Chief Stakes The Controllers podcast presented by Fox PHL
The Gambler one or two point five FM fourteen eight am. iHeart Radio.
And as I say every week, if you're listening to these words, you've
reached the end of the episode. I very much appreciate that you have done
so. It always means a lot to me that everyone listens to this show.
When I get to talk to really cool people, or if you just
listen to my voice for a now, and with that, I wish you
a fantastic weekend and even better week right behind it, and I will be
back again next week with Moore on che Steaks and Contract. Goodbye,