What is cracklac and developed thermo nuclei A efforts. I am Dan Valley, coming at you with a very brief intro. Just wanted to clarify a couple of things before we get into this ultra long podcast that Grant and I did. You're welcome in advance for almost two hours of just non nonsensical talk as usual one to three to eight. We recorded this before the games on Tuesday, so we don't talk about the six teams that we're playing. We don't get into the Christaps porzingis injury. He will now miss several games with a calf injury. By and Madonovich is done for the season for the Knicks. Also, if you're watching on YouTube, say hello to Cosmos since I have him right now, so we don't get into that. And the other thing I wanted to clarify is I was responding to a message that was sent to us in Discord that I was tagged in since my computer went off. I normally have it on do not disturb, but I did not this time. I misread it and I might have ascribed a quote to David Griffin that he did not say. He did preach about urgency I disagreed when he said that the Pelicans don't necessarily need a floor general point guard type. So when you have my comments at that part, because I do get pretty incoherent and not angry, but you know how I get if you've watched this podcast before, So I wanted to clarify that that I'm talking about one the Pelicans should not sit still, but I did focus a lot on their need for like another floor general playmaker type. With that though, let's get to lots and lots of NBA playoffs talk and fall out with the cut fantabulous dripping with fantabulousness, Mister Grant Hughes, what is krack alacin, Fellow thermonuclear Affors, I am Dan fa Valley coming at you with my certified fantabulus dripping with fantabulousness, Thermonuclear af co host of the number one NBA basketball podcast in the business. People are saying that we have changed the way that content is being disseminated and educating the masses when it comes to basketball podcast. They're saying this, everyone's mentioning it's mine the game and it's hard with knocks. We're just right there. So we look forward to battling them in the charts for days to come, maybe months or weeks or years or decades to come. I don't know how long a Lebron's podcasting career is going to be. We're here to talk. We're just bouncing around the entire playoffs, takeaways, things we've learned. We're gonna focus. We're recording this before the games on Tuesday, which so you have Nick Sixers Tavs Magic. I don't know what the fuck that series is, by the way, so I'm glad we're not gonna spend too much time on it. And then Pacers Bucks Are those are the three games tonight or did I get one wrong on there? I think you got it. So yeah, we're not gonna be focusing too much on those series, but we're gonna talk about some of the series that are over. We might get into some Clippers Clippers Mass series. Tis the time of year where we go through this during the regular season where it feels like everything's kind of outdated very quickly. But the playoffs, you read so much into every single possession that we absolutely everything's gonna feel outdated as soon as we release it. But first and foremost mister Hughes, how the heck are you doing. I don't know if this is the best thing to say on a podcast about the NBA, but I'm really glad that three teams are eliminated. And it has nothing to do with the teams themselves. Like sorry, Lakers fans, Suns fans, who else is out? Pelicans fans. It's too much to watch every game in the first round for like multiple weeks on end. I try to do it every year. I don't succeed typically, but like my percentage is real high as far as like how many minutes of first round action have there been relative to how many I've watched, and just getting teams, Like I'm not rooting for sweeps necessarily, but like if those teams are eliminated and I can stop thinking about them game to game and I get back like a couple hours every night or so happy happy to have it, because it's a it's a bit of a stretch. I don't know. I in my household, it's always like, oh man, the first rounds starting, like everybody knows that. It's like well grants out of commiss and for several hours, like just because I gotta you gotta you always got to watch the games. But you figure, well half the leagues out now, it's not that big of an ask. The most you get are four games in a night, which I just can't do. I don't know about you, but like I'm like two plus generally speaking, where like that's kind of my threshold in terms of time. So glad to have three teams out. Sorry, So one, I'm with you in the sense that my my even my mother in law who's not an NBA fan, will just be like she needed me to move something. And my wife told me she was afraid to ask because she knows that this is the time of year. We're just like, I don't have time, and so it's like I feel bad that that's how people feel. But it's like, I have one of my best friends is getting married on May. I think, like May whatever, a week from this upcoming Saturday is and I'm like, there's kind of inconsiderate of him to just schedule it. There's the middle of the playoffs. Am I supposed to formulate Aaron Nesmith takes at a wedding, I am one. I'll do the when it's the weekend and they have those four games set up like, yeah, I'll do them, and I'll try to watch like the on Monday night, I watched most of every single game, but it's like when you have overlapping start times that makes it annoying. So during the week it's harder. I will say, I do share your sentiment when the series aren't good. I didn't need to see any more of the Phoenix, Suns, Lakers, Nuggets. This is not hang the banner. The Lakers were a real threat to the Nuggets, but like that was a pretty competitive five game series when you look at the amount of time the Lakers led. Jamal Murray had to hit two game winners to do it. But like Pelicans Thunder, it was just without Zion, it was over and it would have been with Zion. But so I'm with you where it's like I was ready for Thunder Pelicans and just like I'm kind of ready for Bucks Pacers to end at this point, Like I just don't Dame and Johann's harm playing. I was definitely ready the Suns just I can't watch them without feeling miserable. And I'm not even a Suns fan. Yeah, no, the ones that I mean, it's just well, part of it is like if they're the NBA TV series and I've got to switch to a separate app to watch them, like that, that's gonna hurt you. But also that like the Pelicans Thunder is a perfect example. And I don't know we can even kind of start there because I don't know about you, but I have fewer thoughts on them that that series than either of the two others that were completed. But like just zoom all the way back out to when we're previewing this series and it's one versus eight and eight doesn't have its best player, and not just best player, but like the one that could propose like actual problems to the first seed, right Zion just was the guy that, oh my god, if they're gonna upset the Thunder. Improbable as that is, it's because he just like puts chet Holmgren into the basket stanchion, you know, fourteen times a game, and just is the guy that before the hamstring strain looked incredible and to not have him there, and really, Jimmy Butler and versus Boston is kind of a similar thing. We're not gonna talk too much about that series, but you know what, I mean, like the ones that feel like they're kind of over before they started really feel like more of a slog when you're like, this series is two games in, it's gone exactly how you expected. Games three and four feel like formalities like I want to turn my attention away but you just can't quite because who knows what's gonna happen. But those ones are the ones that are could suffer an ankle injury anything. Yeah, I mean, look at again. I'm not gonna talk about it too much, but like Porzingis strains a calf and it's like, oh shit, like we got to at least see what Boston looks like now without him for purposes of thinking about the next round, right like that that changes it. But yeah, the I don't know I was gonna say. I was gonna say, let's do it like this way then. So if we want to start on the Thunder Pelicans track, what did do you want to give me? What's one of those teams? Do you have stronger thoughts on at the moment? I mean, well, I don't feel what do we learn? Can I can I phrase it this way? What did we learn about the Thunder in this series? To you not a ton, I don't think because of the competition and the injuries, injury to to Zion. I guess like what I would say is we learned that at least once one bruising, big guy who did dominate the glass in Valentnis, did not sink the Thunder. And if you were looking for weak points all along, everybody talked about like that, that's one of them. They're not a good rebounding team, okasee, maybe someone like Jonas Valentinis is going to really capitalize on that. He did have some good games, good moments, it didn't really matter. And I don't know whether I attribute that to like, oh, the Thunder have hacks for this, or they've figured it out, or it's just the Pelicans had too many deficiencies in other areas for that to be like the swing factor. So I think we did learn that, like one potential concern for Oklahoma City, at least in the first round, was not significant enough to like really change a single game, let alone the series. And I guess the other thing i'd say is like the idea that oh they're young, it's house money. They may not be ready for this. Again, the Pelicans aren't a team that's going to really test that. But none of that, see, I mean the Thunder seemed very much up for it, very much like we Belong like that, all that kind of stuff. So I don't know if you want to talk about like individual players on the Thunder, but Macro, those are the kind of the two things I guess we learned about okay, see right, And it's not it's not not really lessons for us to take a small victory of that because you and I were never on the Oh they're just not. It was a question like Howard Mark Dagno kind of tighten up his rotation, like this is young it's his first playoff series, and it's like we kind of saw what he's gonna do. We had questions about Josh Giddy, who ended up having an okay series for the most part. And I don't know that New Orleans was built to stress tests like them without they just weren't built to stress test them without Zion. It just you know, it wasn't gonna meaningfully anyway. I do think like among the like, if you're looking for actually something to take away from the aside from the Thunder Belong, which is just they were the number one seed they belonged, Like that just doesn't happen on accident. Like one of the bigger things for me was and we were a podcast that's been on this, but Jalen Williams is just that dude. And I put this on Twitter. It's like, how many All NBA teams is he going to be for his career? It's like, and it's all NBA. And so you're sitting here with Jalen Williams, Chet, Holme, Grin and Shake gillis like you just have as soon as next year, they might just have three all NBA players on their roster. I don't Chet and j Dubb both had a case this year, but it feels kind of fringe to make one of those three teams. Yeah, that's like, you know, there are people are still talking about, you know, can the Thunder keep this together or are they gonna consolidate? Like two of these guys are still on their rookie deals. I'm in an age where where everyone's kind of focusing on the moment, like, oh, are they gonna be ready for it? I'm starting to look at this like they might just be one of the more sustainable situations in the league because of how good they are so early, and it's just even things that let's say one I might have missed on where it was, well, did they need kind of a different big man type look? And I can't remember who phrased it this way, but it was like when you were started getting into those options, and is not Biambo is on the payroll, it's you need them to be better than big Jalen Williams, and big Jalen Williams is like good like and he's got some stock like some stockiness to him as well. They what their weaknesses are or people thought that their style was gonna get kind of gummed up during the playoffs. I think even I'll throw myself in here, even I might have just underestimated a degree to which no like the Thunder are built to kind of dictate the style. And that was I mean, look at what they did in game four. Shay has The didn't look right after he turned his ankle, which something to monitor for sure, But it's just like the Thunder is still just it wasn't necessarily an easy victory, but like you had Herb Jones, like the defensive job that Herb Jones was doing on Shay Gildas Alexander when he was guarding him was pretty good. Even Naji Marshall was clearly overmatched. That just it doesn't fucking matter. And it's you know again, I know it's the Pelicans, but they they're the more interesting team to come out of this because they have more wholesale questions. But I think this and I think it's an important lesson that we kind of learned. You know, the Nuggets are there, the timber Wolves are there, but the way that the bracket is set up, like the Thunder are clearly the second biggest threat to come out of the Western Conference. And it never should have been up for debate, and I don't know that it was. It was. It was up for debate in the sense of, look at this top three, but this idea that they weren't going to be ready or their their style wouldn't necessarily translate. It's like lou Dowarton SGA have both played in big games and they're just their depth is not an enemy like we've kind of seen that, like the top heaviness might be more of an enemy. And for a lot of these teams, I was just overwhelmingly impressed with what they did. It wasn't always the cleanest stuff, but like even when it wasn't clean, the fact that they were still winning, I thought that really mattered. Yeah, I don't have a lot to add. I think I just think they did exactly what they should have done in the circumstances they were in in the first round. And I mean, like as much as any team, it's always you know, it's you always say like now, I'm really intrigued to see what the next round matchup looks like, much more so for the Thunder than every other team to me, because like this was this was just a warm up. This was a warm up series. Like I think it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we get into the second round series, whether that's the Clippers or the MAVs that they end up facing. And like a lot of the same questions we you know, we're acting like, have been put to bed resurface just because the star power on the other side will be bigger no matter what brighter I guess is the right word, there will be like legitimate you know, I think Vita zubats is better if it's the Clippers. I think he's better than Valenciunis. I think he poses more problems. I don't know what i'd say about the Lively Gafford combo necessarily, but like there's gonna be Luca on the other side if it's not Kawhi potentially impauled. Like there's just the real test is coming. That's how the playoffs work. It always gets harder. I mean, with few exceptions, but yeah, I just think the thunder, you know, did did what a top seed should do right against a beating up flawed number eight seed. Like that's just they didn't answer well. I guess really the big they didn't have to answer any wholesale questions and the fact they took care of business was a big thing. But I guess the one thing that kind of monitors just like Josh Giddy shooting fifty percent on well threes in general, most of them were just wide open, and it's if that continues, that's that's gonna force that's gonna stress test every single defense they face, because it's gonna be like, well, what are we doing, Like we can't just stash guys on him or just you know, sag all the way off of him. So he's gonna make those shots I know he has time, Like, those are shots that he's gonna have all postseason, and if I don't expect him to hit them at a fifty percent clip, but if he's going to hit them, that makes this team so much more dangerous because they just they break defense. It's not bending them, they break them at that point. Yeah. So, so if the Thunder didn't answer a ton of questions because they didn't really have the opportunity, the sheer number of questions now facing the Pelicans on the other side of this series is really like where the meat of this discussion probably needs to be. I don't really know what to say about the Zion of it all, just because much in the same way the Thunder like operated according to expectations, Ion kind of did two. It's like in that he was amazing right up until the point where he was hurt, and that is just always the priced in you know, duality with him so far in his career. So I don't know what you do with that. We've we've talked plenty about like how difficult team building is when you have a unique player like him that doesn't stay on the floor, and like how do you construct a roster. That's less interesting to me now than like, what are we doing with brandon Ingram? What are we doing like in terms of remaking the core of this team. So I want to start with a question for you and then you can take it wherever you want. But if you're the Pelicans, you get to choose between you can keep two of the following three players. I'm sure you know who I'm gonna say, Trey Murphy, Herb Jones, brandon Ingram. You can keep two of those around, you have to get rid of one to you know, take the next step with your team. Like it's pretty obvious who's going right, Yeah, by Herb, it has to be Herb Jones and Tredy Murphy. Neither room has the on ball skills of brandon Ingram. But there's only so far that's gonna get you. There can be redundancy with Zion. Even though I thought when brandon Ingram got injured towards the end of the regular season, I just thought that dynamic had never been closer or at its peak like for that long. And then but like then if Zion's out and comes back, does that create the awkwardness? But then if Zion's just not there, Like there's just brand Ingram is a very good You've said, this is a very good tough shot maker, and that is valuable in the postseason. But we saw like lou Dort had him in hell for all of Game four and you could tell he was getting frustrated, and there's just there's only And I don't know if this is I don't necessarily attribute it to a coaching thing, but maybe it is. I don't He's not someone that you do other stuff for, like, let's do something more creative to get him open. Can he fly around off the ball a little bit more? Is there more of a change of cadence to his game, like the way that Shay does. It's just and that's not an insult, like Brandon Gham, he's an All Star player, but it's like they need someone who is better than that. And I guess in a sense, there is a decision here because he's going to be extension eligible. But like you start to get into the finances of it all, and it's they're gonna be like Jonas Vundcunas is a free agent, Naji Marshall is a free agent. Those aren't necessarily you could say those are guys they don't need, Like, those are players who are valuable to their rotation. And it's if you want to sign Yonis Valniunis. I think right now as they enter the off season projected, they're like thirteen million, a little bit less than that away from the tax. And it's like, if you keep Naji Marshall and Jonas Valentchunas, you're a tax team. Yep, and this team is not. I won't believe that the Pelicans pay the tax when I see it. That's always the default I'm going to take, no matter how good they are, this is not the team they're paying the tax for. And so what's are you just letting Yona Valentunas walk? And then how are you replacing him? Like they're like the big man market isn't super. I know Pelicans say are in love with Isaiah Hartenstein. You're not getting him for the mid level exception, but the Knicks are worried that they're not gonna be able to keep him with early bird rights, So I'd like and then where is the move like? And I also think they definitely do need a different look at center. And now we're I'm just stepping on the toes of things I've already said, but they need a floor general more than they need a center. At this point, you can just backstop that and figure it out later, because if it's not, the Zion Ingram dynamic is officially so shaky to the point of just ineffective because of Zion's health and then brandon Ingram just he's not able to beat him and CJ. McCollum, they're not going to be a Jose Alvarado like, You're just not going to get enough of the floor general captainship out of them, and that is going to be their challenge. They have the assets to get stuff done, but what team? There will be teams that want brand Ingram'm not saying he has no trade value, but are you gonna have the stomach to then attach picks to brandon Ingram for a player that you might think is closer to the level of a brand Ingram And then who is who is the player? You have to go out and identify that player, And that's their challenge this summer. It to me, it's like, I know, I know, like it's almost a bit now where we're just me really just picking on Ingram, and I feel like you pick on McCollum or the point guard spot a little more. So we're kind of even there. But it's almost like, I don't know if I just pick on, like I just pick on the fact that they don't have Trey Young on the roster. Now you're triggering me. Uh So it's not like like Brandon like we said, you said Brandon Ningmer is an all star, Like he's really good at certain things. I don't know if you need someone who's like in a vacuum better than Brandon Ingram. You just need someone who's better at different stuff, like you need like his specific skill set is just not enough of a value add on the team for it to make sense. Same with McCollums. So if it was like if I don't know, just because they're top of mind, if it's like and again not perfect, if you had Mike Conley instead of McCollum, and like Jaden McDaniels instead of Ingrim, I think you would just sort of balance that. Like, first of all, that wing defense is hillacious with Jaden and Trey Murphy and Herb Jones, but like a guy who is looking to create easy looks for other players and a guy who's more comfortable like playing off of creation, you know, in Conley and McDaniel specifically, Like again, like those guys aren't available, those guys aren't changing teams. I'm just like those two types of players make more sense. Right, you have someone that's going to create shots for guys that aren't great at it, and you have and Conley and then in McDaniel's just another sort of dependent scorer, which then that sort of makes things hinge on Zion's creation all the more. But like, that's the team you've built, so let's maximize it around him. It just Ingram's individual shot making and shot creating ability, like is valuable. That's a skill like not a lot of guys have. That's why he's been productive, that's why he's gotten big contracts, that's why he's been an All Star. But on this particular team, clearly we just saw it, like it's not enough, especially when you run up against an elite defensive team with guys to throw at him that can just make what he's good at harder, and so like it just the mix just doesn't work. This is not some grand revelation, like I'm not sure that about the fit in New Orleans. Like that's been what we've talked about for years. It's just like crystal Clear. Now, I'm not laughing at your take. I think it's right. And one of the things you touched about, I don't even have a problem with CJ. I think it's I even try to frame us like you need to probably move on from one of CJ or Ingram, and no, it's just Ingram. CJ had a flawed playoff series, but like he was in a role he shouldn't have been in. And the thing to me is like he made strides towards upping his three point volume, which is what this team needed. And even you kind of saw it in Game four there was possession late in the game. You know, it's not a high quality shop like it looked like he was kind of step back in the mid ranger, but that he took the extra dribble and got behind the three point line. There's more of a self awareness there, it feels like. And he averaged over seventy three point in times per game for the series. That's about what brandon Ingram took the course. He was at two attempts per game for the entire series. That's eight versus so. But I'm laughing because so we got a discord message added from Trey Real Stroker Murphy. David Griffin apparently is downplaying the notion of needing a pure point guard. Says it's all about skill and intelligence and making the right basketball play. Said, SGA is not a pure point guard guard and they get the right shots a lot. Who the fuck is the shay gilges Alexander on your on your roster, and Trey said, can you please tell Griff how wrong he is about this? You know what, because David Griffin follows this podcast or me one or the other, I'm not that's not even a lie. Like what I do in the intro, that's not a bit. David Griffin. If you're listening, you seem like a really good human. It's over like it's it's time, like you need to bust up the core and you need to like you can't skew. You can't air on the side of and I think schmid Deho has been all over this. We've talked about in the past. Time you can't air on the side of staying the same when you're gonna get to see this group healthy in the point it's just it's not going to happen. It's just and maybe it does, but at what what are you at that point? And so I just like if they go in this is more disastrous than them taking a swing and missing. If they go into this off season and change basically nothing where it's like we kind of just changed up the center around Zion. Isn't that a disaster? That's a disaster, right, Well, it's just like it's just flawed thinking because you know, you you could say like, well, a lot of the young guys are gonna get better, like Dyson Daniels could get better, Trey Murphy will get better, Herb Jones has gotten better, We'll probably continue to get better. I mean what you're what you're missing with that line of thinking is that like Ingram and McCollum and Valanciunis if he's back or whatever, they're like they could you know, yeah, everyone can always get better, but they're not gonna change like the types of players they are. And that's really what we're talking about. Like McCollum is, like, to your point, has improved in important way, but he's not like he's not like an A plus, I'm gonna get my teammates the ball in spots where they need it to be successful. In Ingram, I think compounds that deficiency by being someone who almost doesn't like plays, like someone who doesn't want shots created for him, like he he's more comfortable getting them himself, which is valuable in late game situations or when you don't have a good defender on you. But like as an overall strategy, like that's it doesn't it's not effective at least with this mix of players. So like, yeah, there could be improvement. Continuity is great. We we we lawd teams like Denver that just keep guys together and grow. This is different though, right It's it's different. It's a player type thing. It's not like how much better can they get at what they do well? It's like these particular skill sets are not complementary. That that I think is the issue. And it's like you, I'm not saying they need I've mentioned Trey Young. I'd be okay with them going after. It's not you need that specific type of point guard. They don't need to be that ball dominant they could be if he was one resign and Donna Mitchell becomes available. I don't hate that as a change up from brandon Ingram. It could be a it's so tough without knowing the trademark, but like it doesn't need to be a conventional point card. It could be a win if Lebron James wants to like, go ahead, look at that, that's fine too, so but it couldn't even I would even say it couldn't. Like let's say Kevin Durant wanted to go to New Orleans. It can't even be him because it's just like you could talk about, well, he's not really the playmaker anyway, but it's just like, no, you need someone who is both going to be a playmaker and take the right kinds of shots that's gonna elevate your offense. And like Kevin Durant is just married to the mid range at this point where that three point volume is never gonna going to be there. It's like, I don't know who the player is, but the archetype to me is just or at least the things that they need to do. I think you have enough information to say go out and do that. And I do think if you get to be too selective though, And this is something that just as an analog like the Knicks could run into an issue with is like, yeah, they've been storing their assets. They're in a great position. They're better right now than the Pelicans are. I mean if Zion was healthy. But again, that's a huge fucking question mark. You can't be too choosy. I'm not saying just throw all the assets at someone, but it's like you can, well, Darius Garland's too small or Trey Young is too small. If those are guys that become available, it's okay, Well, like you need to figure you have these two if you don't have to give up Trey Murphy or Herb Jones and trade talks, which, by the way, you might not have to depending on the player. Like you're you have the draft equity, and you have Dice and Daniels, and you have some salary matching tools. You can get there without including either of those dudes who My spiciest take is that those guys are the core more than Zion might be at this point, just because of the availability concerns and Zion's like, honestly, he's so good and that he was tremendous this season. I'm not diminishing anything he did, and it seems like he has grown a lot, both on and off the court, but like the availability question mark is always gonna be there until you need someone who both compliments him but also can run the show without him, and it doesn't I don't care what position. It could be a center. I thought about them for a minute, just for a minute. This is gonna make Pelicans. I thought of them as like a Karl Anthony Towns team, just like, Oh, we're gonna go all into offense and we'll go get like an actual point guard though, like a Trey Jones or a Tias Jones or somebody. I just thought about that for a minute. I probably still wouldn't hate it. And you know why I probably wouldn't hate it. I just want to see him get off the continuity side improved, where it's just you know, this will all come together at some point and it I just to what you said, this isn't the Nugget situation. It's not that the Nuggets had proof of concept before all the injuries kind of hit them, and the Pelicans have yet to have proof of concept when it matters. Like the Nuggets had proof of concept in the playoffs, the Pelicans don't have that. So I don't know the name. I just threw some out. I don't know if any of those peak your attention or if you even have a guy where it's you know, if Devin Booker did shake loose, that is we'll get into the suns in a second. That is just yes, if he shakes loose, Like the idea that the son should trade Devin Booker is kind of as a Knicks guy, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, they should definitely move them. But no, no, they should so, But is there like even a name like kinda no. I mean that's the thing like where it's it's so easy to sit here and say like, well this this player mix doesn't work, and then when it comes this is I mean, maybe this is part of the reason why like continuity is like a buzzword for them or Griff's happy with it is. It's just like there's not an easy fix the like really the easy fix must seem like the zion will stay healthy eventually and then we'll judge everything and it's like yeah, I mean I guess, but you're gonna wake up and it'll be twenty twenty seven and the same shit has been happening for you know, five years now, But couldn't it even be something along the lines of And I think this comes into the play of them being too risk averse or married to this idea of what's already in place of let's says de Jente Murray, who I don't think is the cleanest fit. He's not the best shooter, but he gives you an upgrade as a point guard playmaker. And then can you flesh out some of the other pieces around them, make sure the three point volumes up there, maybe you get some more floor spacing out of the five. It doesn't have to be the one consolidation trade. It could be. I mean, like if you turn brandon Ingram and I don't know what the like the framework of de Jontay Murray on Yekka Kunglu for brandon Ingram, and like there's other stuff like and then flesh out your roster from there, or if it's de Jontay Murray or getting Bogdanovitch as part of that. It doesn't like we're saying, I'm I recognize what you're saying. Where it's it's easy for us say they need this, and then we can't come up with a specific name. But do you know what the archetype is, so that they need is kind of so generalized that it doesn't need to be a specific name. Just change it up. Jesus Christ, oh man, you might need to move on. Yeah, okay, well we've we've touched on the On the Sun's players a couple of times, so let's go to that series. I I want to start with another question. We'll get to Phoenix because that's the post we uh we already did and we will continue to get to Phoenix. Dan, is the Rudy go Beart trade already a success? Would you can? Can? You can? You? Is this enough? Is not just because they want a series? It's like because they want a series in resounding fashion and the theory of the team with the two bigs and and being defensively dominant and figuring it out offensively. We'll have to talk about Edwards, but like, is this sufficient to justify the trade? Getting getting the Timberwolves to this level where they dominate a first round series and look really strong going forward? Like, is that is the trade of success now today? Yeah? And look so one of the things and you know, even though this is us in mind, the game are kind of battling out for the best NBA podcast in the business right now. You know that I try to be humble and we both try to eat. We did an entire episode about things that we got wrong this past year. We were both I wouldn't say smitten, but really liked the Rudy Gobert trade in the moment, so we not We had the comments on one of the Timberwolves quickly posted about Yeah, you guys were just so wrong, and it's no we had to eat crow for being wrong last year because we thought the trade was good and we both were high on the Timberwolves coming into this year. That being said, we did recognize that it was an overpay. I think in hindsight and how the trade market is kind of settled, it was still an overpay. But it is a success. You can't what is the argument against it now, because even if they they want a playoff series and like that, shit matters to that specific market, that fan base. We're talking about decores of just wandering through the desert basically, and now you've won a playoff series against the team by the way that was favored over you, and so it's a monster success and now yes, you want to get out of the second round, there are payroll implications, there's the battle for the soul of the organization with these billionaires or fake billionaires, whatever you consider Alex Rodriguez and Mark wors like ownership group. It's just like, what would be is it if they don't if they lose to the Nuggets, And we'll have a different type of preview up at some point about that. I'm gonna turn it back to you and maybe one you should answer your own question. But to take it a level further, if they lose to the Nuggets in the second round, is it still okay? If that's the pinnacle of the Rudy Gobert era, because now they're gonna bust up the core by next year's trade deadline because of the find Like was it still a success? That's that's why I phrased That's why I asked the question. Is it's like if it goes to me? Because I think that it put them on the map and gave them I mean, like the thing that I need to I will continue to eat crow for is I destroyed the D'Angelo Russell trade when they flipped him for Mike Comedy and Kyle Alexander Walker and it turns out that the kil Alexander Walker might be the most valuable player in that trade. Yeah right, No, I think I think it's so to me, the Timberwolves got themselves to a level. It took a year, but even last year when it seemed like, oh my god, this trade's a catastrophe, it was like, well, you still have the excuse of they never really were healthy together long enough, and they still gave the Nuggets a pretty good run. The Nuggets said, so, we've mentioned that several times. So it's like, I think it has to be viewed as a success almost no matter what happens going forward. But I think you got to acknowledge that if it goes to shit in the second round the suddenly that will seem like a harder question to answer, I guess. And so like, if you're saying it is a success, it was a success the go Beart trade, you gotta be willing to say that still if they just fall apart, which will be a weird you know. So it's not like it's not a success. It's not written in ink yet. I don't think I think it should be, though, just because all you can do is get a team to a certain level and then like at some point luck factors in and things out beyond you like whatever, But you had the key point of like it's different for a team like Minnesota, it would be different for it's different for a team like the Kings, for example, it'd be different for like the Pistons. I guess if they become good for the first time in twenty years, like that kind of a fallow period like that for that long just has to make the bar for success a little lower, because, like the relevant, they're really good. They have a puncher chance against almost anybody, Like that's that's better than this team has been for like you know, many people listening to this for like their entire experience of being NBA fans, Like this is the best the Wolves have ever been. So I think you have to even if it goes sideways next round, you have to have to view it as a success, right, And I don't think I would have a problem because just if they bow out in the second round against the reigning NBA champions, that might be built as a dynasty. Even if they bow out, it's not over like this. You look at the top seven guys on their roster, right, now and I still I'm gonna say just top eight, even though he's on top of Leonard Miller. Is gonna be a more love with Leonard, you know I feel about Leonder Miller. Uh, but like it's not just over. Like if they decide that it needs to be over, then you know what that's different. But that's an organizational incoherence and inconsistency. If they decide to break up a corps that just won fifty six games, had the best defense in the league by a mile, and it's still built to when you look at their key players, and that was gonna be my other like one of the things we learned about them. And I want to throw to you about Anthony Edwards, but like you're built to get better, like gnaw's not super old. Jade McDaniels has already gotten better offensively in the playoffs, and I annihilated him for his offensive season leading into it, andthy Edwards isn't done improving, like you just watched him, Like it wasn't just the offense, it was him defending his ass off when he had. Yeah, it's not as consistent as a Jade McDaniels, But when you also need to be basically the James Harden for your offense at this like when Kat's not on the floor, that's okay. And I was gonna unless you have anything to add on the success, I'm with you. It's it's just a success right now. And if if you need to, if we need to question it, it's probably like, well, let's fast forward like another two years to see what they've done from here. And by the way, there's a chance they beat the Nuggets. Denver, this is repeat Denver, K I think who said it was it Bruce Brown or MPJ or but Denver basically said that Minnesota was the toughest team they faced in the playoffs last year and so they could win that series. But I want to ask you, Anthony Edwards is now being talked about as the potential face of the league, that he's gonna be there's no limit on his ceiling, YadA, YadA, YadA. But I've seen some now pushback from it and not oh what about Victor winbinyahma push back, that's the natural. Whatever. Do you think that his impact, his ceiling, his potential, his play, who he is is just a basketball player, is being hyperbolized at all sort of captured in the moment type of stuff. So this was that's funny. This was my next note is we have to talk about this exact issue with the Timberwolves. I think it depends on like I mean, part of the problem with the like he's the face of the league discussion is like what is what do you what is that? What do you mean by that? It's like if I guess if you say so, you know, because then that means that like he's marketable and good and cool and is just like the guy he has some intangible quality, which like if that's your argument, then like yeah, like he's charismatic, like he's he played. I was trying to think watching Game four, like who's the last guard? Because he's like a guard guard. He's not a wing, he's not six seven, he's not like the in the Lebron Durant Kawhi Paul George like that. You know, that type of player has kind of been the dominant like alpha for a while with some exceptions. Who's the last guard that like would could dominate games defensively, not just like oh he's shutting someone down, but like he's coming out of nowhere for crazy like help blocks and he's and steals and then he's scoring in like this pretty iso heavy Like that's a tough Like if Brandon Ingram is a tough shot maker, Anthony Edwards is also in me category. Like he takes some what you would say are bad shots and makes them. And like I think the Jordan comparisons are absurd, but like that's the guy you point to, like the guy roughly that size that is doing it on both ends and seems to have like this like one the athleticism to just overpower the best athletes in the world and to like this gear of competitiveness that is like kind of overwhelming for some opponents. I think, so, like I get I get that. Also, he's twenty two and we're making this coronation like one way before his peak. He's not I mean like athletically, he'll probably decline because you sort of can't ascend from where he's at now, but like worth three four years from like the best version of Anthony Edwards, like God willing, there's no injuries. So that's one thing, Like so it is premature in that sense. The other sense is having now seen and read after sensing it all this about the Suns don't really buy into what's happening, don't seem committed to the coach, laid An Egg, like, this isn't the series. In some senses, it is, like because he was the best player on the floor in a series that involved Devin Booker and Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal. But in the other sense, it's like, again, let's see, Like, let's see against a more a team that like wants to be there and like believes in what they're doing and is put together sensibly, which none of those things describe the Suns. So it's early, but I understand the rush to do it just because of like the type of player and personality he is. I just want to see him do this again against a better team, And if he does, then then I don't know what I don't like, I'm couching it, but like, I don't know what you'd say if he does it in the next round. Yeah, And I mean just even this round, like averaging thirty one six shooting forty four percent from three seventy percent of the Siegals were going on assisted. To your point, I don't think it's it's premature to just declare him the face of the league, mostly because I don't know how you gauge that. It's more of when we talked about Lebron and Steph and I guess like Durant in those terms are Kawhi when he was at his peak. It's not premature to say that he's gonna be part of that next collective where it's is it gonna be wemby Luca Edwards and say I'm sure I'm leaving something like there's just a bunch of options. He's absolutely this is not premature. I don't think he's been Maybe if you want to get into the face of the league discussion, fine, he's not been hyperbolized as a player just because of how he's improved every single season. And I kind of just keep thinking, you mentioned this when he's twenty six, twenty seven and actually in his prime. What does he look like as a passer if this is what he's doing right now, or what does he look like if he gets a younger type of playmaker next to him at some point that can alleviate some of the offensive burden and make things easier on him. I love you know, we love Mi comedy to death, but he's eighty years old or whatever. It is, so like I can't even I can't them how good he's going to be at that point. And so it's like I just I couldn't even tell you who's the because who's the face in the league even right now, or who's the face of the league during peak Lebron peaks Steph? I think you've default to Lebron, but like there was a time where it felt like it was Steph and it's that's just it's a debatable discussion because what metrics are you using to actually gauge it. He is certainly going to be a part of like the when you think of a certain era or certain pocket of time in the NBA, there are players that spring to mind. I think he has shown when you're talking about the next pocket of time that is coming, if it hasn't arrived already, He's absolutely in that discussion, right and like he does feel like where do you know how I kind of feel about him is we thought it was going to be Jaw and Zion at some point. Jaw's dealt with injuries and some off court stuff. Zion has dealt with injuries, and it no longer feels like it's going to be those dudes. They are certainly talented enough for it to be, and maybe I guess Jaws a better chance of working his way into it. I think Zion overall is the better all around player, and I'm not I don't want to bounce them from the discussion entirely, But like Anthony Edwards, I don't know if you would have said even seeing like him ratcheted up in the postseason before, which is when you're that young, is a pretty big deal. I don't know if he had been mentioned in the same breath as just like Shay and like Wemby necessarily if you knew what Wemby was going to be in the NBA and Luca specifically, who's this proven commodity. And I think now there are people that might be prepared to say, well, he's gonna become synonymous with this era more than Luca is, and that might be where you're getting inflammatory, but it's also something that you can consider because he's been that good. Yeah, I think that's where the face of the league stuff comes around to, sort of. It's different than saying is he going to be the best player in the NBA for the next However, many years, like he'll be in that conversation I think pretty undeniably. But it's like it really is. It is like a there are no stats for it. It's it's just like he's giving us what we want to see from a marquee star in terms of like the competitive intensity, the like leveling up in the bigger games, just like the the like I don't know what the style that he plays with, just like the smiling, like that's that's like a new guys don't do that, like in like I guess it's charisma. I don't know what it is, but like it's charismatic abandoned. Yeah, Like he's out there just like this is fun, Like I am loving like this super competitive you know environment, like I'm I'm built for that. Like I'm sure he said I'm built for this like a hundred times, like I'm sure it's on record and like a lot of guys say that, but like he really does operate as if this is exactly what he's supposed to be doing. So I think, like in ways you were mentioning some other names, it's like if Jason Tatum wins an NBA championship this year, I think you'll still have everyone saying like, yeah, but Edwards is the guy. Like just if you're comparing those two for example, or like if Devin Booker had won that title with the Suns a couple of years ago, I think you'd and you're comparing him now, it's like, but Edwards just has like something and so like this is this isn't that podcast. We're not gonna just you know, we're not gonna rhapsodize about like his his intangibles, but like we're talking about face of the league that that's priced in because that it's different than like is he the MVP. That's a separate type of question. That's a good segue into the Suns though, because I think this is where you get into some of the intangible stuff and for me and part of it. So there's so much wrong with the Sons that we are gonna touch upon. But when I so you're talking about Edward specifically, and even you kind of get this vibe from the Thunder. It feels like they genuinely like each other that everyone really likes just to focus on, say, Sha, that just seems super likable, and it seems like that team is very together and there's something about the Sons do not feel that way, and I would argue that pretty much no Kevin Durant team has ever felt that way. Ye, My whole thing is, and I'm gonna use a weird analogy here, is it doesn't when you think about like normal normal jobs, but just other jobs coworkers, you don't expect them to best friends. But it's almost kind of like think about bands like Blinkooneddy two. Here, look, here we go, rep it. This has all been an elaborate plan for you to circle back to do this. This has been a long time coming. So just like part of the appeal for me, the mystique of Blincoln eighty two has always been that they weren't just these people who got together to make money off of music. It was they were best friends, specifically Mark and Tom. And so when that fractured and they came back the first time, it still didn't feel right because you could tell the friendship was fractured. Now they come back again, you'd call it a cash grab whatever you want. It certainly was. I paid the ticket prices, so I know it was cash grab. But like, the vibe is different on the stage, and you appreciate the experience more, and I feel like in sports it's a lot of the same way because you don't view it as a regular job and couldn't even like, let's use us as an example. It's just like, wouldn't it be weird if like this community we're trying to build in discord and we want people but to feel like we're accessible, but like that this is a podcast that's personable. But then you and I didn't really ever talk outside of this podcast, so like it's kind of a different scope of a job. But like spoiler grant I don't hate each other, like there's not so isn't that part of the appeal when you're looking for entertainment or experience and then you get to this m and there's just like never feels together and you and you're also there's this huge extreme because you're going from that previous core where it was Cam Johnson, McHale, Bridges, Devin Booker just sort of yucking it up. And even DeAndre Ayton felt like he was a part of that for a little while. And it's easy to maintain that dynamic when the going is good. It's when there's the burden of expectations or you failed a couple of times like the Suns did, or maybe when it feels like things grow stale, This Sun's team grew stale and it was together for a second, like when you factor in bal. I know Durant was there since last season. There has to be something to this, and some of that will fall on Devin Booker, like when it comes to leadership, like even he is going to mote more on the court, even when it comes to defense than a like a Bradley Beal or a Kevin Durant. And I don't know what to think of Kevin Durant. Zach Low called him a wayward soul ever since he left Oklahoma City, like wayward basketball soul, and that feels dead on. There's just something. There's stuff lacking on the court. But there's like a fundamental, like emotional deficit to this Son's team where it never felt like you would watch them play or even just their mannerisms, never felt like they were together. And that is you can change out the parts around them, like the minimum contract certainly, like that might never go away. And I don't know what to make of that, especially when you're trying to frame and this is the moral of the segment is where do the Sons go from here? Yeah, I think it's so hard to like get into this kind of discussion specifically about Kevin Durant because even though he's been covered exhaustively for his whole career, it's like what we don't know out ways, what we know by a factor of like a million, right, Like we really don't. But what we do know now and have a new data point to support, is that like he doesn't seem content with any scenario if if you like and and the reasons don't seem to be the same, right, like if if Zachla was talking about like he's been a wayward soul since Oklahoma City, Like I mean, who's to say, Like he wasn't there, Like who's I mean he he he left that team right like he was you know, Harden was traded away, but he was the first piece to go from that core like of his own volition, and things seemed pretty good there. That was a really good young team that was the best Thunder team until this one. Uh and then in Golden State, Like he's not happy there and that's a different set of circumstances, But man, were you winning like that? Like if that's you know, that team was as bad as good as a basketball team can be for a three year run. And then Brooklyn is basically a place he chose to go, not happy there for several reasons. And now Phoenix, I'm not saying he's come out. He certainly hasn't come out and said he's unhappy, but that some of the that he was unhappy with his offensive role. With his offensive role, so let's try. So there's another one. I think what we can say pretty definitively is like, while he's I don't know where you put him in terms of just pure talent, like might be the purest scorer. Ever, that's not a ridiculous thing to say. It doesn't seem like we have any evidence that in terms of all the other stuff you need to succeed as a basketball team, like he adds value, whether that's like camaraderie, whether that's like, uh, doesn't make the play of those around leadership, Like certainly you certainly wouldn't say Kevin Durant is someone that you would install in a leadership position after the way things have gone over the last But it really is like gim Boyle and wanted to make the leadership. He is not on the leadership Council whatever that is. He's not in me the triumvirate of whatever. So yeah, like it sucks to have to I don't know, I feel like we're killing him and it's certainly not just his fault, but it's like, this is team number four and you know, for the most part of the last three you've chosen to you've chosen where you wanted to play, and like you're not driving winning in any way other than like good individual numbers. I don't know. I think maybe there's another chapter here. Hopefully there's another chapter. I hope he plays for several more years and it continues to be awesome. But like he's gonna have one of the most complicated legacies of any really great player, and it's gonna take a lot of time, I think before it like settles and we have like, Okay, here is our take on Kevin Durant, just because like the individual talent and the just I don't like, yeah, wayward soul nature is just so hard to like arrive at some sort of take on, you know, when you have to weigh those two things. But so what do they do? Do they trade him Dan like, are we training Kevin Durant now? And the reason that this matters about Kevin Durant is and this is this was the first step. Everything that happened is because you had Kevin Durant, or went out and got Kevin Durant. There's the price you paid for him. And then everything you did after the eight and trade getting Bradley Beal, and now you have you don't have control basically over any of your first or set. They have their first round pick this year, I believe, but you don't have control over any of your first or seconds until twenty thirty one, and so now you're in this situation. That's why I do feel now if he agitates throughout Devin Booker, I'm talking about that's a different conversation. You can't move Devin Booker because of the pick, Sage like, you just you can't. You have no lifeline there. You could be which and I guess if you're sending him to Brooklyn to get all your own picks back sort of like that what Brooklyn could have done with Michal Bridges. But I like, you can't move him, like that's a discussion if he wants out, but he's under contract until Kingdom come. At this point, now, the Bradley Beal and Kevin Durant stuff is, you could still get value for Kevin Durant, but how are you making your team better after the version of Bradley Beal You kind of just saw and it's just like, I don't know, And so I'm sitting here going I think I've seen a lot of it. In the Timeline podcast did a great they call it a therapy session. Afterwards. I thought it was good they had mentioned this, and they're not wrong, but it's you're gonna have to exchange. You have Nurkic and you have Grayson Allen. You have this big three and then kind of move the parts around, how like your nos little becomes like your primary salary matching fodder there And even if this is where it gets super complicated. So let's say they're willing and I'm sure he's not considered untouchable. This is a super tax team, by the way, for anyone who doesn't know this by now, So they're not gonna be able to take back more money in trades. They can't aggregate players to acquire a single player. In addition to a litany of other stuff, But I'm talking about just that money matching for now. Let's say you're willing to move use of Nrkic. That is a player who, while I think useful in the regular season, at his eighteen point one million dollar price point, who are you getting at just the one for one swap? And you can't even sit here and say, like, well, we can just get a worse contract that price point. There's not going to like the contracts aren't bad at that price point anymore. You need the Andrew Wiggins deal to go and you can't get to that money. And so it's like, we know what they need. They need athleticism, they need wings, they could use a like a conventional point guard, and so it's like, but how do you go out there and get that with what you have the stuff that you can offer. You might be sort of locked into this. And I know there's been a lot of talk Devin Booker didn't improve enough. Him operating as your floor general isn't necessarily ideal. I probably come around to the idea that does make sense, like he is still your best option there, and I don't know how You're like, is Kyle Lowry gonna be willing to come and sign and play for the minimum, and that's something you could look at. I think they're stuck in the sense of, unless there's a team that Bradley Beal wants to go to because he has that no trade clause and is willing to give you, you're not getting picks for him. That is out the door. But it's you know, let's use Miami as an example. If they flame out of the playoffs and it's well, if it's just costing us salary matching to bring in Beal, maybe they view it as they're probably a team that's smart enough to get Beal to waive his no trade clause permanently as part of the trade. Like that's the other thing we could revisit. I don't even know if we talked about it. Why did the Sons like try and negotiate like okay, like the no trade clause is gone as part of this deal. Yeah, it seemed like they had no leverage and it just they paid everything they could and because they, like I'm sure, wanted Beal there and so it's like get it done, get it done, get it done. And so is the guy that you have to look at throughout like the lens of this team building. But anyway, it's let's just say it's Miami and they're willing, like we maybe we could end up flipping deal for more than we give up for him, but like they just don't have this expendable salary fodder either. It's okay, there's Duncan rod Like the three primary salary matching tools would be Duncan Robinson, Tyler Hero, and Terry Rozier. Now, I guess if you're the Suns, you're definitely interested in Duncan Robinson, But like if you're the Heat and it was dealing with back soff, why are you giving him up? And then you don't need Tyler Hero because you have Bradley Beal on Devin Booker. And then I guess Terror's ear is not he's more of a point guard or for he's not. No, actually he's more of a point guard in the conventional sense that a Devin Booker Bradley Beal. But Devin Booker is still gonna be your best passer on the team at that point, So, like, is there even a situation like that? I think I could be open idea of just divesting Beale into multiple bodies, But what team has multiple bodies to offer that he will also wave his no trade cost to get. That's the thing. So like the I mean, they're every layer of this is tricky, but so like, let's assume that your decision, as the Sun's like, the way out of this is we're gonna move Beal and so okay, So that means that Durant and Booker are gonna be there and the rest of the roster pretty much is intact. So then it's like, well, we have to get guys back that help now, and trading someone like Beale usually isn't the That's not usually what you get. So like to me, I haven't thought about this. It's just like, as you're talking, it's like, well, what if you just Philly's got cap space, they want a big splash, Like let's trade him into cap space to the sixers and get picks back like that. That's what I would want if I'm Phoenix. That's not what Durant or Booker would want. And probably that's not what Philly would want because they probably think they could do better or not take back such an onerous deal with the no trade clause still there. Probably maybe Daryl Morey could get him to drop it so he could flip him. But like that package is a non starter for the Suns because that just makes them worse and is not geared around building the best possible team with these two other veteran stars you have. Like, so I don't know that's why you keep coming back to Durant even though this would be such an abrupt about face, like giving all that shit up to get him, seeing for a season plus that it doesn't work, and then let's flip him so we can I don't know, it's like retool around Booker and Bale, like Durant, you can't trade bal I don't I think Bill is too hard to trade. Unless Booker asked to be traded, you don't trade him. And so it comes back to Durant and Durant there is gonna be a market for I think right like you're gonna be You're not getting the same package probably that you gave up to get him, so you're going to be in the red there. But yeah, like and if he's unhappy and maybe that's and Booker's not cool with the whole vibe there, like you could easier to move him, but it's just like where's I think I was gonna say, I think that's the I'm not saying that. I think you only look at breaking up this big three. Well, if there's a Bradley Beal opportunity out there, and I don't even care what you get back at this point, it's if you can just get to that book, if you could, just if you were able to trade him, what if the Magic just said yeah, we'll take him, and you could. They're willing to create the cap space where they have like all these non guaranteed deals, you just you take the extra flexibility of, well, maybe we could spend our mid level exception at some point because they're not gonna have that either. Yeah, but I'm even what I'm getting back with the Durant thing is like if he asked her out, you visit it. But right now, your best bet at being making the most of this window is still kind of dancing with the three guys you have here, just because I don't know what what's the team. And even if the team is coming in for Kevin Durant, you could say that all right if you get picks and stuff, like the Suns don't want that either, and so who's giving you actual players for Kevin Durant and like I was even trying to think the shout out to Rome eighty one to eighty had messaged me about could they move Grayson Allen who just signed an extension to Orlando? Would they give them stuff? And yeah, I think Orlando would. But but like I was, even like, Jonathan Isaac would make a lot of sense. Hey, you know who they can't acquire Jonathan Isaac because the money doesn't match up. He makes it slightly more than Grayson Allen. And it's well, now we're training someone who could play twenty five plus minutes a game for Someoney's like Jonathan Isaac would be perfect here, and it's you could go a route of like, so the Magic have cap space? Would they give you Mo Wagner in a first round pick? Mo Wagner make a lot of sense for this team when you're looking at their center position. But what is that like? What like now you like lose a guy who is the best three point shooter in the league on a team that doesn't take enough threes, so you can you can't even they're in such a weird spot and you can say, well, we just you can't move Grayson Allen once the extension, you know, restriction lifts. I'd probably agree with you, But what is that? Maybe we're just misidentifying an opportunity out here, but who is giving you multiple contracts for use of NRDIC And it's even just like we're the one for one with nos Little, Like what is the because you don't have anything to attach right, you have sweeteners, that's the other thing. It's sounds like you could do something like nos Little for Javon Carter and like that might move me because I think Javon Carter he had a down year this year with Chicago, but like he's not even giving you enough you know, point guardiness in that type of thing. And so they're in such a weird spot or bad spot. We haven't discussed what in fact is going to happen, which is they're going to fire Frank Vogel and they're gonna change which is just absolutely absurd even you think he did a bad job, because well that's we can't change anything else other than the coach territory, is it not? That is one hundred percent what that is? Like I it's just again this kind of ties back to Durant, where it's like, well, what are you wannhappy with this time? You know, and I think some of the other players, it sounds like from the reporting is are were like, you know know, we not super psyched about how the offense runs or how the rotations work or how the defense runs. Like that's all coach stuff. That's just they they we just outlined how difficult it's gonna be to change personnel, so obviously the coach will be what changes. And that's like, I don't think it's gonna matter. I think I think you still have all the same issues you have with the roster makeup and the lack of flexibility. But it's just like that's what will That's what it'll be. Now. The other thing is like, I don't know who's the coach out there that's gonna fundamentally, like who's gonna who's gonna run? Durant likes like who's gonna who's gonna paper over the lack of a point guard with his genius scheming? Like who's gonna It's just like, I don't the coach doesn't exist like there, it's sure you could do someone will do a better job than Frank Vogel. That's totally possible. Uh, but it's like all of the core problems are still there. You know, it's it's still and look, Durant's gonna be a year older. Bradley build like fifty something games, and that's the most he's played in several years. Like, odds are he's gonna miss time again, Like Devin Booker hasn't been some like model of durability like this on a personnel side, this could it probably will get worse, like as these guys get older, right, like the coach, you have to do that. You have to change the coach. We get it. That's like we've followed the league long enough to know that's what's gonna happen. Deep down. You have to do that knowing it's probably you're just putting off the really hard decisions for another year. Yeah, because like the names that are out there, it's just I saw the time my podcast I was listening and said that people want to like Mike D'Antoni in here. Oh so just all right, but like even Tyler, let's say he becomes available, which you can't. He's employed by the Clippers right now. So I just don't I don't know that the coach that's out there that is gonna come in and have this. It's a personnel, but it's not just an you can call it an ideological problem, but like part of the like do you think that, Like you remember, did you see, excuse me, when Kevin Young was at his introductory press, which I think for BYU, and I saw some of the quotes that were coming out of that, and he was just basically likeventing how hard it was to build the Sun's offense because these dudes don't want to take threes. And it's just like if you have someone who is like leaving the situation and saying that like that is that should clue you in, like this is not just a Frank Vogel thing. Yeah, it seems pretty like I just keep I don't know, I can't stop like circling back. It seems pretty clear that Kevin Durant wants to play how he wants to play, and if that happens to a line with your offensive philosophy as a coach, lucky for you. And if it doesn't, like it's just gonna be a rough go because it's just what happens, right, I just and I just don't know, how you move him and get better I guess if you're getting a point up, like what is it? Like even I thought about like a reunion with the Warriors, but at that point you're looking at it's everything, it's pods, it's Kaminga and Wiggins and then picks which But does that make you do feel better about your team after that move? If your Phoenix? I mean, no, you're objectively worse, probably because you lost this superstar. But like well I don't know, I don't know, maybe you know you can't be better, right, you're more balanced, I guess, but like your ceiling is probably lower and the primary playmaking stuff is still an issue in that regards. Right, you haven't addressed that you didn't get like the floor general back what a fascinating I mean, like the Warriors do show up on the very short list of like this is semi plausible as a durant destination, which says a lot about like how few options there are because like could you, I mean a few years ago, be like unthinkable that he would go back, Like that's just you talk about like I have a message here for anyone who wants to see the reunion in Oklahoma City I am begging the thunder not to ruin what they have by acquiring Kevin Durant. The vibes and then also, what are you doing to your offensive hierarchy? Does this infringe upon Shay Let's say it doesn't, because he's like, oh, so we're just gonna that infringe upon J Dubb. I know Kevin Durant right now is still a better player than J Dub. He's going to be thirty six. It's just I'm not being ages here. Me and Kevin ran are basically the same age, so and he's better. You are so like you You're right, well, get me so, But my whole thing is and he's better at his job than I have in mind. I fully recognize that. But like the age, stuff matters here, which is why it was always a risk when they acquired Kevin Rant. And I know that everyone's sitting here saying that Bradley Beal trade was a disaster, you know what in terms of the end result, yes, because now you're stuck. But the opportunity cost did not, Like you were never gonna get a player who could theoretically be as good as Bradley Beal for what you were able to offer in the moment, and I really want to know where it all went wrong behind the scenes that you felt like it was like we gotta get rid of CP three and DeAndre and this just I'm not thinking Eyton would have been better than Nurkic, but like as a trade asset in Fury, you could still kind of if he would have had a good year this season, like in Phoenix, he would have given you this trade chip that had just a little bit more shimmer or a lot more shimmer than a use of Nurkic. And this again, you already had made the Durant movement, So at that point that's the domino that put all this other stuff into motion. And I put it all on at Ishbia even more so than I do James Jones, who probably he does. There's a lot of credit for going out and getting Royce O'Neill. Yeah, and like with what the assets that they had, I think, but I do think to kind of put a ball on this, I think it's probably if the sons are the ones, like if if Kevin Durant and Devin Booker aren't saying they want out, and I think I don't know if you saw any of Devin Booker's exit interview comments like this, dude is you can have quibble about how he played for a lot of the series, but he has like a head on his shoulders and was like, you know, the important thing is to not panic in the moment and to not overreact. And they're kind of in they put themselves in a situation where it's, well, you do have to overreact because of like what you your urgency of your timeline, but that's actually the right call here. So if he's not coming to you, Durant's not coming to you agitating for out, I just you kind of have to take the semi continuity route and explore everything else on the margins possible, because I don't like You're just you're not going to be a better team and your future is not going to be better off if you moved YOURNT or Devin Booker. It's just it's it's impop. The only again, the only scenario is you move Devin Booker for all the picks that you gave up your own picks, and then it's well, then you still have to rebuild. You know who's really happy right now is the Nets because they've got they've got these picks and they're just sitting here like watching watching the fire start and just like just waiting with gas Canson. The most hysterical outcome to all this would be they trade McHale Bridges to Houston for all their own picks back, and then they trade all the Phoenix's picks back to Phoenix for Devin Booker. And it's just like these teams are throwing the same picks back and forth and everybody, let's all agree to start over. But yeah, I don't very quickly, what like, let's let's do this. Just will they be in Phoenix next season? Use of Nurkic? Yeah? Grays and Allen No, wow, I right. That felt like a contract sign to be traded because they realize they got to get a bigger number on the books so that they can move him, right like O'Neil free agent. They have his bird rights. Yeah, they'll overpay to keep him. My bet. Frank Vogel, No, he's the easiest. He's gone. James Jones, I think he'll still be there. I don't think this is on him to be I don't think it's on Vogel either, to be clear. The only one I disagree with you is I think Alan is still I think he'll still be in Phoenix. Devin Booker, Yeah, he'll be there. Kevin Durant also yes. And and I'm gonna cut you off and say, Bille Yes, I think I think they're gonna change the coach and just hope that that's that. Then maybe trade Allen or maybe Nurkic. But I think Alan is the more like marketable piece. So that's that's the only reason I thought he would be the one to go. Do you so you differ on Alan? I guess I could see why they just like, don't trade that guy, because then you have no shooting at all, like and it's going to get So it's if I guess you're flipping him for a big or a wing. I'm trying to think of, like what wing or big would want to have to fit into the salary structure once he's eligible to be traded. What slightly overpaid backup point guard do you want to swap him for? Soly the son's addressed the need everybody complained about all year to Denver something happier and talk about the Nuggets. Yes, let's do. I'm trying to so I like to start these with questions. It just worked out this way because I'm I'm asking them myself. So, uh, for one, wasn't a sweep. I think we both had Lakers in five or Denver and five. I forget it was either four or five, so kind of went to plan. But there's the stat out there that, like, the Lakers led for one hundred and sixty something minutes of the two hundred and forty that were played and the Nuggets outscored him ultimately by like eleven points. So in the game four win is doing a lot of work in that, But like that's still not kind of a like this was. Michael Malone said it afterwards, like this wasn't your typical No, I'm not. This isn't the raw ra The Lakers are right there, They're not right, No, But it wasn't like again, it was a lot like last year where it's like, yeah, they were in all all these games, they just didn't have it, you know, the final push. So tell me what, tell me how you view the Nuggets coming out of this series now? Is is this was this Denver like playing with its food? Was it? The Lakers are actually good? Slash? A tough matchup? Was it the Nuggets maybe aren't as indomitable, like inevitable as we and many others have made them out to be. So like there's kind of three routes to go. It's obviously some combination of them all, but like do you skew one way or the other of those three options in thinking about the Nuggets going forward, I feel like I feel I feel I don't know, I feel slightly more uneasy. And I'll tell you why. I know. Jamal Murray hit two game winners and the dudes of the postseason legend, but there's like the calf stuff has me worried because he wasn't like this wasn't a banner series for him. He had a very good Game five, and so that's something to monitor. There's also a level I don't know this was because Anthony Davis made life difficult on him, or if Jokic was playing with his food, And I kind of almost feel like he might have been playing with this food because like he just decided to flip that switch sort of in the latter third of Game five and then it was just over. So I just like more so just about okay, what DoD Jamal Murray's health look like even just sort of the okay, the Aaron Gordon he had a three in Game five and I was like, I almost fell out of my seat, like that stuff hitting there. And then there's always the because the Jamal Murray injury is kind of sobering in the sense that I'm done with injuries this playoffs. I'm done with injuries all the time, but it feels like there's been an influx of them. But all of a sudden, you kind of realize, Okay, we're one because Jamal Murray almost he said he was never not going to play Game five, but Michael Malone said it was a very emotional decision if he needs to miss a game this rest off. That's why the Nuggets needed to win, is to get the time off that they're gonna have until the start of the series versus the Wolves. Like you're all of a sudden, just like very close to oh, Reggie Jackson or Peyton Watson or Christian Brown needs to play like thirty five minutes or something that just gets a little uneasy. But I think you look at this team and it's I think more than anything, it wasn't. I give credit to the Lakers. They did put up like an actual fight, but this was more just Denver wasn't in Denver, and we saw what happened when Denver decided to be Denver or close to Denver. And I still just believe that while I would give the Wolves or the Thunder a shot in a series, I feel like this isn't like to me, the Nuggets are still They're not just the best team in the West. Their head and shoulders better than everyone else when they're at full strength or close to it. I think this was clearly a better test. Obviously the others were sweep, so like, yeah, but then the other two West teams that have advanced got from their competition, and I couldn't get past the idea because I came into this series thinking like, yeah, I know what the record is. I know it's eight straight or whatever at the time the series started that the Nuggets have beaten the Lakers. But I continue to think Anthony Davis is about as good as you can do in terms of an individual matchup for Jokic, and Davis was fucking great for like a lot of this series, and it just and and that was my thing coming in, is like he could be incredible and we'll leave it saying like it still doesn't matter. And so I think that really did kind of play out, but I don't know I did. I do leave this series feeling like less certain of Denver's inevitability than I did going in. And I was having this thought as a in game Game five, thinking like, man, Jokic is like throwing some crazy deep outlet passes away, like he had a couple cross court turnovers that are just uncharacteristic, Like he's this isn't the best Jokic game, and then you look up it's twenty five, twenty and nine, and he dominates the last year. He just flipped the switch too when it happened, and so like normally you would focus on the larger sample and like the whole the Lakers lead all this time, and like this was much closer than it was, but for certain teams, And this is why I still think Denver be the favorite and that that hasn't changed at all. I think for certain teams, you just you give them the benefit of the doubt with respect to switch flipping. It's it's like a rare category of team that I think you can view like their best five minutes as really indicative of who they are versus the other forty three or whatever, whatever the case is, kind of like peak Warriors. Do you remember when it felt like the Warriors, even kind of before Kevin Durant, but with Kevin Rant, it was they just need these like two to five minutes of being at their zen if and it's over and the Nuggets have that. I mean, this is coming off of and I forced us to do. I forced that discussion, didn't have it organically. It was there's like this Spursyan Warriors inevitability vibe to the Nuggets, and I think that stands for me for sure. After this series, I didn't want to bring the Warriors up of my own accord for like the humpteenth time, because I feel like I always relate everything back to them. I had the same thought. But the difference is some of those Warriors teams would have like a different lineup that unlocked like the ocean it we can't do the death lineup. Even the Harrison Barnes version of it was like, oh yeah, no one in the league had an answer for the death lineup. And then when it became Durant in Barnes's place, it was just like a joke. Uh, the Nuggets just have the same five guys and they just start to play better. Like that's that's that's almost scarier because it's not dependent on like some tweak that you know if you not that you would ever do this. But it's like, oh, when they put Aaron Gordon at center, or when they put Peyton Watson in for KCP or whatever, like that's when things really get unlocked, and it's like, no, it's the same guys. They just uh, they just only take good shots when they want to and they lock down defensively, So like that still feeds into the inevitability. I to answer my own question, I kind of leave this thinking, like, man, the Lakers are pretty good like or at least Lebron and Ad like those guys. You couldn't ask like really much more from either of them. Now. The rest of the roster I think was pretty disappointing, but that's that's what we expected. So I think I think you credit the Lakers. Don't don't kill the Nuggets for giving up a game, And there are things that should get like the three point shooting. They were sub thirty two percent for the series. And I'm still of the mine that they might be a team depends against Minnesota, so might not be an issue. But like if you go up against Oklahoma City in the conference finals, the math battle with like if they hit enough threes, do we need Denver to take more threes? I think it's a fair question. I would still pick Denver to win the series, but like KCP will shoot better than twenty eight percent from three, and like that, and even just so you're mentioning their five guys, their their top five guys. They're starting five played two hundred and seventy two possessions in the Lakers series the first round series, there were a plus eleven plus eleven point two points per one hundred persessions with a really shitty defense during that time. I assume Urry hobbled for a decent chunk, right, and so like the Lakers during that stretch, like that offensive rating is skewed by they shot seventy two percent at the rim, which I guess is sort of sustainable, But the Lakers actually they shot only twenty six percent from three during those minutes. That's everything was just I guess in transition and stuff. It looks like is kind of where the noise is that's why you saw a faith in the seam and then finally on the nuggets. And I don't know you have any thoughts to expound upon, but I just have. I guess it's three words, Michael Porter Junior. I mean, bring it back to your like this is enomorph game. And by the way, that's why you're able to overcome some of the collective pre point shooting deficits Murray being kind of all over the place for a good chunk of that series. It's because, Okay, Michael Porter Junior is out there. He's averaging twenty three points a game, shooting forty nine percent from three on over eight attempts like him and KCP I think were the oh and Jamal Murray of course, like those are your three point high volume guys, and Michael Porter Junior was the only one of those three guys better than thirty percent from three And it's just he is such it's there are there are moments in times when he feels like a luxury and where if you were going to fuck around with their lineups and crunch time, that's the guy that you would pull out. And that's just like two years ago, I mean last year, people were talking about Bruce Brown's got to play over MPG. This was the last one I've can come out right now, is even just if it depends on the matchup, but it's just like he's not a luxury, he's essential too if you're only gonna have these, And I know everyone's high on the youngsters. We like Christian Brown, we like Peyton Watson. I'm very intrigued by Julian Strauther, actually probably more intrigued by Jail and Pickett of the three remaining guys between those two and hundred Tyson, but like you you need him to be like this because that's not that's not a cheat code, that's a that's a lifeline when Jamal Murray's and Jamal Murray or in KCP isn't hitting his threes. So that's just like that's why I say I'm like feeling a little bit more slightly uneasybouth the nuggets. It's solely because of, Okay, well, how healthy will Jamal Murray be? Like, if you're gonna get this version of Michael Porter Junior, sixty percent of Jamal Murray is good enough to win a title. But that's just yeah, well just cause like you can't as an opposing team in a series like MPJ cannot be a prior. You don't have the bandwidth to like make we gotta slow him down a top priority, like you got way bigger fish. You gotta figure every asset you have has to be thrown at, like how do we stop the Jokic Murray two man game? How do we like, I don't know, you probably are more concerned with, like how do we make Aaron Gordon a liability somehow? Like you just don't have the you don't have the ability to focus on stopping like the most dangerous shooter on the team, like, which is just it's so unfair, it's so I mean, it's awesome, that's why. But it's not why the Nuggets are good. It's it's part of the reason. Like that just you haven't just an if he's open, he's one of those guys like, oh he's that's good. Like if he gets a clean look at it in rhythm, it's good. And it's just like you're gonna give up those looks to him because you don't have the ability to slow him down and also handle all the other stuff you do with Jokic. So yeah, I just yeah, I kind of started like trying to poke at the idea that like, oh, maybe we should be a little lower on Denver, Like I don't, I don't really the deeper in that Minnesota series is gonna be fascinating, right, Yeah, we gotta do a deep dive on that cause there are some different I mean, it's just a really different team than the Lakers in a lot of important ways. Look at that segue speaking of the Lakers, speaking of what do we so? What do we do besides we we buried the fire of the coach lead with the Suns, like that seems like where we're headed here, right, because there's less the problems the Lakers have with the roster are more easily solved than they are in Phoenix. I still think it's pretty clear that Darvin Ham is going to go. And then that's before even getting to like what's Lebron going to do with the player option? Like what do we do with think can sign him? And there's the report from the athletic that they will give him the three year, one sixty four million or whatever it is, extension, which will duh if he wants it, Like yes, yeah, they're also willing to draft Brownie if it makes him stay. That's kind of a dub moment. Uh, you know NEPO NBA players that could be like we can make that thing so uh And I hope he's healthy. I know he dealt with the hard condition and some people think he's a viable prospect. But I don't mean to drag a like a you know, just a young kid into this. But that's just they're so desperate to keep Lebron because he's that's kind of one that he's still so good. And he's definitely a revenue driver too, so even if he kind of sucked, that might be the case. But oh, he's gonna be forty. I'm like, yeah, well, we'll draft your son in the first round if we needed to. Like so, but we need to see what the Pelicans do with their pick. That's something we're we're waiting on. I believe they didn'tchoose to defer yet. I don't believe I think they will, but they can. So we have the Lebron thing, the Darvin ham thing, which is are they gonna wait and see kind of what happens with Tyroon, Like who's the coach that you want to install here. Maybe it's easy, like Lakers fans hate Darvin Ham. They think that he plays too small, seems to be their biggest gripe. Hated the rotations all year, just hated. And I get it, like it took too long with some like the cuteness of having Austin Reeves come off the bench at one point. But it does like he wasn't necessarily working with a lot. Well that's what he said too, and it's usually it sounds like excuse making, but like he's right, like guys, guys were hurt, guys underperformed. What do you want? He almost mythologized how unhealthy they were though, like they were the only team working through injuries. Is what I think the big quest what was so you have the Darvin Ham thing. I expect Lebron to be back. I know there's Carrie Champion and said that she heard Game five was gonna be his last game as a Laker, and I saw all the funny responsible like so if they win, he's just not a playing Game six. But I think he'll be back. I don't think Darvin Ham will be back. And so now it gets into the thing of one everyone said, Angel Russell is gonna decline his player option, which what that makes it harder than to construct trades because all of a sudden you don't have his money. Do you expect him to decline his player option? If he does, do you think that he like leaves? Is he coming back? Like that's that's sort of one layer here, and then it comes to this is the bigger one. Okay, well, what is the trade? They can they have three first round picks, Well, they will have three movable first round picks at some point. They have some salary matching, they can include swaps. Who is the guy for them? I saw a lot of people like, why would they think that Trey Young would fix this team? And it's Trailer's not gonna fix their team, but he would like give them and identity that is actually measurably above like other teams where it's okay, their offense was really good after the All Star break, but their defense suffered and it's still not an offense you trust over all these other elite teams. So if you had Trey Young, I'm not I mean, I would advocate it for it if he's getting gettable, but I would almost argue I'm saying Trey Young comes in and you're gonna have an elite offense and you can hang your hat on. Okay, we're fifth in offense and we're gonna be fifth in offense whatever. I actually think the route to go, and because of how we've seen this postseason unfold is well, like whatn't like de Jonte Murray and Bogdanovic and Kung Wu like some combination of those. I'm not saying that's the only team you work with, but it's let's try and flesh this out with like two or three players who cracked the top six, top seven of our rotation rather than trying to consolidate again even though we're worried about the fallout from Lebron James eventually leaving or retiring. Yeah, I think like the Trey Young type move, uh is just it almost feels like you're saying these top two guys and Davis and Lebron aren't good enough to be the top two guys on a title team, and like, the longer we go, the more likely that'll be true. But I don't know what anyone saw just even in this series against Denver that would suggest like, well, the problem is Davis and Lebron just aren't good enough, Like that's that's not it. It's just the lack of depth behind them, the lack of guys that give you something on one end of the floor but also don't take something off on the other end. Like So, to get back to the rustle question, like, I think he probably will opt out, and I don't think you can bring him back unless he's like that's why it's a separation. It's like a lower if it's like three years, like three years and fifty million or something, you can't. I think you it would be underwhelming, slash a mistake to bring him back in the same role as your starting point guard and just exp like, no, this will be the year that we can that he's not like, at best, a break even playoff guy like you. Just I just don't. It's it's like change for changes, just change. His sake is stupid a lot of the time, but this feels like one of those situations where it's just now if you want to bring him back to preserve the asset, you know, hash hashtag preserve the asset, Like sure, but I don't think you can go into next season as the Lakers thinking well, we got okay, we got Russell back, uh, and so then we can proceed to what do we get for Austin Reeves and whatever else? Like that? That doesn't feel like you're you're you're improving enough. Frankly, like it just I just don't think that's that's a viable solution to getting through another round in the playoffs or whatever the ceiling needs to be. So I get these are truth ever questions Who is the best player? Like who's the worst player? I should say that the Lakers could acquire while keeping them like their like their baseline Anthony Davis Lebron maybe Austin Reeves unless you think the name is Devin Booker, where it's like, no, they need him to be a contender. What is the worst or is it? And then on the food side, that is like what I'll go to that part afterwards. So let's say they're not gonna they're not necessarily dead set on the super consolid solidation route. Who if they went out and got Alex Caruso back, which I'm not even trolling there, does it need to be better than an Alex Caruso or is it like if it was an Alex Caruso, Like if it was Dejonte Murray and bad Madonovitch or even on Yaka kong Wu. If those are the two guys coming in, do you think that gets them there. I kind of love that trade, Like I don't know how much that the the Murray, Bogdanovich a kong Wu trade, just because we're getting three guys that are like two of which will start probably and and a third big that like I believe I could see him playing with either Davis or certainly with Lebron. I think it's that type of trade. I like getting give me three guys that I can put out there so I'm not having to decide during the year between Cam Reddish and Reeves that's gonna take the full if you're getting all three. Yeah, I was thinking too, that costs you the full boat. That's your picks, that's your swaps, probably Austin Reeves and then other salary. I don't think the assets they have are enough to like split them up into separate trades and get enough difference making guys. I think I think you need to view it as like this is our last one here, like this in terms of the Lebron James era, like this is our last this is the last dry powder we have. We got to fire it in. This asked to count, and so it needs to be a pretty substantial trade. I love the idea of like a three for two or a three for one. However, well, I mean the salaries are gonna have to match, so you got to figure out how to do that. But like getting three guys that are like no questions asked, Like you said three your top six, Like, I think I think that has to be the move because it is like a pretty big undertaking it. Ret Well, nobody said it would be easy. Like you've been trying to win now with Lebron forever and you've made some major missteps along the way. So you're just like, yeah, degree of difficulties high. That's just that's just what it's going to be. And they are a tax team like a lot. I mean, some of it depends on like what Russell's number would end up being at, but I think they have some wiggle room under the second apron, they might even be but yeah, so they were like sixteen million dollars below the second aprons went out. I think that's with if d Angel Russell signs for basically what his player option is worth, so like you, there's stuff you can do in trades. There's that flexibility there now is there. I'm gonna throw some names at you. Okay, it is the Lakers, and I do think it's fair to say, well, like Lebron is forty, like we do want if we're gonna expend these assets, we want it to be on someone who could lead our team. We have to gave us into the future. I'm gonna throw some names at you to where would you if this is like that, not the one, but you're consolidating, this is the player you're bringing back. Would you make this trade for most or all of the assets that you have available if this player shakes loose? Are you ready? I'm ready? Trey Young, that's so hard. I think you probably have to. I just I'm so anti adding Trey Young to a system where I'm not sure he's gonna be helpful. But yeah, I think you probably got it. Donovan Mitchell, Yeah, I'd rather have him than Trey Young. I think I agree with that one. McHale bridges for everything, you would take every because I don't think they're That's the only way they would have even close to the best offer, right yeah, that's borderline. I'd say probably, I'd say probably. Yeah. Kevin Durant, Yeah, I think so. I wouldn't do it. I just you're just like you're you're kind of sabotaging what your main goal was, which is to get this lifeline outside of Lebron and like Kevin Durant and Lebron are gonna age out of basically at the same time, is your main goal a lifeline outside of Lebron or is your main goal to give him the most out? You're right, but I'm just saying like that would be tougher for me to stomach than a Trey Young or Donovan Mitchell trade. I think I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, I mean at the right I guess, like, I don't know what I would want as a fan necessarily. Do I want one more shot? Or do I want like, okay, when when when this is all bad? I still have like Davis and Trey Young aer Donovan Mitchell. I'm not sure. Larry Marken, I don't know. I don't think so, I don't. I don't. I don't like the fit as much. Deuce McBride, would you do you like marketing in there? I like him there, not for everything, Like it's at that point, it's do they want Reeves and it's gonna be Reeves and two first round picks plus stuff at minimum, and it's I still, I don't I mean him Davis and Lebron and then like I think that's a good I like, I like to fit, not for everything though, Jimmy Butler. Hmmm, what a weird fit that would be with the far shoot. I guess Lebron's a great three point shooter now, so maybe that doesn't hurt as much. I think you probably give up everything for Butler. I mean I would assume, yes, but like you're giving up most so like even if oh, we didn't have to give up that swap like that, we're kind of operating on the bar margins there. I don't know if, I mean, we're not concerned about the other side. But I don't know if that's enough for the heat. Although yeah, I think you probably do that, But that's like three first and swaps for Jimmy Butler and on the heat. I'm I just I might, I might, you might, you might? I mean, but that's like that is a last last shot, like even more so than Durant potentially because of the injury injury trajectory. Oh yeah, Durant doesn't have any injury super healthy. I just lost my train of thought of Oh, the next player that's gonna go to, uh, Paul George. I like that a lot. I think I think I would do that. I think that's prob Oh, I mean this is just does Jalen Brown yea, yeah, man, yeah, I think I think probably, although like I don't know if that's a lifeline out when you're on the hook for that salary going forward. Darius Garland, I guess would be another name. Yeah, I could you could you get him without giving up all that stuff you might be able to No, you're buying wha? I mean, yeah, that's just that I'd be bored aligned with that. But yeah, those are just like some of the names that I could see the consolidation options that could have a pathway. I'm not even saying they'll be available that maybe could shake loose. But it's also just kind of like, could you go to the round of like, well, what if we gotten you know, Anthony Simons and Jeremy Grant, Like is that like I think, I guess My overarching thought here is I'm considering the star trade if our assets are enough to get them, and you can pooh pooh the Lakers assets if you want. If a player wants to go to the Lakers, that will factor in. I'm not saying they'll get him for a song, but their offer is real enough that if player preference because they're coming up on free agency, factors into it, they have a real offer, is my point. Yeah, But I think I do think Lebron and ad were good and Ruey too. You see all those spins he had in like gay Vibe, like just I think I think, like the top end of your roster is good, the top four, let's say Reeves, Ruey And I'm not saying Reeves and Rui aren't touchable, but Davis Lebron, if you could go get two guys, I think the Lakers are good enough to do two non stars, two three non stars maybe, whether they have to s put them up or not in multiple transactions. I think. And that's like, that's not a terrible spot to be. I mean, we just talked about the Suns. That's the terrible spot to be. Yeah, No, I mean relative to that that there are so many avenues to go down for the Lakers. I still I'm really hung up on the idea of like, yeah, it's got to be, it's got to be. You can't. It's there's not one there's not one guy that that's realistically gettable that is gonna make the Lakers like different enough or improved enough to really change things. It's got You're so right, it's gotta be a like a pseudo star or close to star plus like two more guys, or you know, if that star is a little bigger than maybe one more guys, you need multiple Like this team just didn't after Lebron and a d like no, but he was consistently like really good like Reeves had moments, Hatchamura had moments. There was never a third, fourth, fifth guy that was like he's got to be out there, he's got it. It was it was always trying to find him. And it's very clearly they're not so good that it's well, just look at how much time Van Do and Gabe vins A missed. We're gonna be fine, Like you can't. You don't get to play that hand. They need to be viewed as like, well, if there are eighth, ninth guys, that's that's great, but they can't be four, five, six or whatever whatever it is. Stat padding time. Just guess a player right here, we have a couple to go back and forth on. Do you want to you wanna kick us off grant? Yes, please have one here from Mike. Let me make sure the players at the bottom. Yes, he is all right. Clue number one. Dan. I was drafted in the late first round in two thousand and four. Fun fact, I was sandwiched in between runs on European players, as shortly before I was picked, three straight Russian players were selected, and right after I was taken, two straight Slovenians were taken. Michael Sweetney great, great one shot attempt. I respect it. Number two. So all we know is four first round and sandwich being European players. Number two. I'm the most notable player from my alma mater in NBA history, having played seven hundred and fourteen games, almost double that of the second place player from that school, Jarvis Hayes. Jarvis Hayes so much do you know where Jarvis Hayes went? That did not help me out. I feel like I should take like a step. How many games they play in seven hundred fourteen seven hundred and fourteen. Yeah, I can't even. I can't even Rashan McGinnis. Is that a person? All right? Three? As a rookie, I played forty five games, mostly in garbage time, on a team about transition into a lengthy rebuild. I only averaged ten minutes per game two point nine points. Probably not gonna help you. No, all right, we're gonna we're getting We're getting a little more helpful here clue number four. In my second season, I averaged ten points ten points a game and started on occasion due to Bonzie Wells getting injured. During this season, we did make the playoffs, and I credited Doug Christie. Hey, look there's that name again for teaching me how to defend in the NBA. Oh what game was Bonzie Wells and Doug Christi on together? Is that the Kings of the Blazers has to be one of those two teams, and if it's not, then this is really bad. B Let me see Doug Christi Bonzie Wells. So we're in five oh six right now? If that helps because he was an O four draft d oh six, No, I don't think. I do not think that that helps me. Carry on Okay, Clue five. The five following season was my team's descent into a long standing rebuild, but I finished second and most improved Player voting, behind only Monte Ellis. I averaged twenty point two points on forty seven percent shooting and shot thirty eight percent from deep. This isn't Brandon Wah is eh, Brandon Roy Roy going with the French Patrick wah pronunciation. No, it is not Brandon Roy. That's a good guess though, because you get the Bonzi Wells thing. Don't forget Doug Christie's name was in Clue four. Let's see you ready for clue six. Yeah. The next season, I upped my scoring to twenty three points a game, and the season after that I averaged twenty four point six. However, we won thirty eight games and seventeen games in those seasons, respectively. This guy's scoring now, especially for that era. Yeah, and I'm stuck on the credit a Doug Christie for teaching me how to defend in the NBA. Yeah, I won't. I won't say anything else. I don't want to. I don't wanna give you any person is not an European player. Correct, That's what we established. Uh, that's that's not explicitly stated, but I will just tell you that is in fact the case. He is not a European player. Okay, keep going all right? Uh Seven? The following season, I was traded at the deadline in a three team move that saw me go to Houston along with Jordan Hill, Hilton Armstrong, and Jared Jeffries. The team that drafted me got Carl Landry and Larry Hughes. The Knicks got Tracy McGrady in this move. Oh god, I feel like I should definitely know this one. Now? What was the trade again? So he goes to Houston with Jordan Hill, Hilton Armstrong, and Jared Jeffries. The team that drafted him got Landry and Larry Hughes, and the Knicks got McGrady. Oh man, I should know this. Nope, keep going all right. Clue eight. In my first two seasons with Houston, I averaged around twenty two per game, but my three point percentage just started to dip. Who am I missing? I'm missing someone like super obvious here at this point. I mean, he's had what six to twenty point season so far? I feel like I should know that. Yeah, I will say the most to me, what would be the biggest giveaway clue has not been mentioned that this particular aspect of this player has not been mentioned yet. All right, keep going then? All right? Uh? Clute nine. The following season, I played in forty games and had my worst season as a starter, averaging only seventeen points per game. Doesn't help me at all, Keep going, okay, Clu ten. The following off season, the Thunder came calling as they had a James Harden size payroll conundrm, so I was acquired along with Cole Aldrich and the star of the tra Kevin Martin. Fuck me and I ought to see correct Kevin Martin eleven is I played a season in Oksee before hitting the market, getting a four for twenty eight from Minnesota. Played well in Minnesota, was bought out in year three twelve. I'm currently part of the ownership group of the NBL's Brisbane Bullets. No mention of the funkiest jump shot form on planet Earth for a good scorer, that's what would have given it away for me. I don't know how you give that clue though, Other than the same, my form was weird. Yep, you got it, Kevin Martin, That was a good one. I wish I would have known it earlier, though. Oh, I have this one for you from Rubik'scal. Okay, can you so Nakolyjokic had yet another twenty five twenty and ten playoff game. He now has four such games. No one else has even had one since the NBA ABA merger. Can you name some of the folks who came close? And there are clues? There are four players who came relatively close. There are clues for each of them. Would you like to take a stab though, in any of the players who came close to having a twenty five point, twenty rebound tenn asist playoff game. Sure? My, I mean I could just start throwing names out, but I feel like, I mean Alajuwon is that that would be one to be one of my guesses? Nope, Tim Duncan nope, Shack Nope. Okay, Well, then I guess I'm gonna need the clues. Okay. First player. This point guard had a pension for turning up his scoring output in playoff games, so much so that playoff insert last name here is one of his official Basketball Reference nicknames. In a low scoring conference semifinal in twenty ten. He outscored, out rebounded, and out assisted, having twenty nine, twenty eight and thirteen everybody else on either team, including a certain future multiple time finals MVP feels like Rondo correct Okay. Player two. The aforementioned future multiple time finals MVP did it four times, came close four times, including a twenty seven nineteen to ten game in the same twenty ten Conference Semis four days after Rondo, though he almost made it an unfortunate quadruple double with nine turnovers to go along with those assists. He's also one of only two to do it in the finals since the turn of the century. Is that Lebron correct two for two? Not bad? Player three. This slender harvester, who recorded a forty nine to seventeen ten triple double against the eventual champs, played all forty eight minutes and shot nearly seventy to forty five eighty in a game he single handedly dragged his team to win while the remaining members of the Big Three looked on. One of them doing the looking on from the court itself, notching up a trademark trademark triple single of his own, going one of ten from the field. Kevin Durant. Correct, surprise, you got that. That was a mouthful. That clue. Slender Harvester was a giveaway there, all right, Fourth and final player. This hall of fame, Oh, this hall of fame, This half of a twin Tower lineup took only thirty seven minutes of playing time to rack up thirty three, seventeen and ten back in nineteen eighty six against Alex English's Nuggets, and he added five blocks to go with the rest of that party. But he didn't quite tower over the counting stats, his partner Tower, out scoring him thirty six and out rebounding him with nineteen. Have I said Tower enough? Hey, well, I already guessed the LaJuan and I was incorrect, So it has to be Ralph Sampson Ding ding Ding. That's pretty good. You got all four with all those clues. I just need the clues. I could just over three. I thought you would have just thrown Lebron out there though in your initial like I was thinking, big guys, just the twenty rebounds was hard. Six nine, that's true, and I should you should just always go like Lebron. Jordan will like, yeah, there's fat lever, fat lever always. I hope the people will only follow us for our shorts, like catch on to the fat Leaver bit or enjoy it because he just people would just constantly be wondering why we were talking about fat Lever, like they're missing something. They probably don't care because I feel like the shorts audience and if you're in the comment, if you're listening, hit us up in the comments and let me know. But it feels like they're not necessarily I don't want to use the word loyal, but they don't care about like the like the inside jokes or like the actual podcast, so they're probably like, eh, but I'd be curious to know. All right, I have another Guzza player for you. This is also from Mike Uh. We are now we've moved. We were in two thousand and four drafts last time. This is a two thousand and seven and O seven clue number one. I was drafted by the Bobcats. Quick oh seven drafts by the Bobcats. Just start listing all of the ones that you know. Mecca ok four number two, Good guess clue number two. I was a regular contributor as a rookie, out shining my fellow rookie teammate who was taken before me in the same draft. Is that one to Mecca? That feels too early? Oh, that's fourth. He was in the Howard draft, right, which is like, oh, it's not a mecha O for But so that's too late, So I'm sorry. What was that? So he was drafted in two thousand and eight. This is an seven draftd by the Bobcats. Was a regular contributor as a rookie, and he outshined his fellow rookie teammate who was taken before him. And he was too late for Gerald Henderson. When did he come to me? When did he get drafted? It's not it's not Gerald Henderson, all right? Clue three. My second year, I got off to a terrible start, averaging what would be a career low in points, and after only twenty games, I was shipped off to the Suns along with Jason Richardson for Boris Dio and Rajah Bell. Oh shipped out with Boris Diao and Raja Bell. He's a sophomore at this point, or is he? Let's see. No, he was traded with Jason Richardson for di Ou and Bell, and he's a sophomore at this point. Uh, yes, hmmm, I feel like I want to throw a guest out there because I feel like I should know a player. Uh, who's PJ Talker? Drafted by nobody? Who was in the second role. This didn't say he wasn't a second round pick or was he undrafted? My brains keep going, remember all right? Clue number four. During my time in Phoenix, I gained media attention for posting journalist style videos of interviews with my son's teammates on Twitter under a pseudonym. I have no idea did you know this about this player? No, I don't remember that. I wouldn't have it yet either. I don't think if I were you, I take Please continue, all right? Clue. I spent five years in Phoenix as a glue guy and role player before joining the Clippers in twenty thirteen as part of the Eric Bledsoe trade. I mean I should know this at this point, I feel like, oh, I still got nothing. The blue guy Emmy Ark WHAT'SO trade ended up on the Clippers When I kicked myself, I have no idea who it is. I still don't. I'm not surprised you don't have it here yet. A clue six. After one season in LA, I was traded to the Bucks for Carlos Delfino. After that season, I accepted my player option to stay for the following year. This makes you feel like I shouldn't know it. See, he wasn't he had to be traded for Carlo Delfino. It clearly wasn't very good. Carlos Delfino was one of my favorite dunks. Just this re like, was didn't you have like an out of nowhere baseline dunk on somebody? Maybe reverse? I have to look that up later, all right, keep hitting me seven. Ten days later, I was traded to Washington for a heavily protected second round pick and missed the first few months of the season after getting surgery done on a to fix a herniated disc. So now we're in Washington, My god, Charlotte. Sorry, this person played for a sorry bunch of teams. Yeah, the Sons, he was there, that's fine, but yeah, that era of the Clippers, the Bobcats, obviously the Wizard. She's uh yeah, nothing, okay, clue. I then returned to Phoenix for three more years before getting traded once again, this time to the Nets for Darrell Arthur. I have no recollection of that trade. No, okay, Clue nine. My most notable achievement as a net was feuding with a pre collapse Ben Simmons in the playoffs. So this is sixers Ben Simmons still this guy was on this. No, this can't be it. No, it's not Louis School. This guy's on the nets feuding with Ben Simmons when Ben Simmons was still a thing. I want to know that. Oh oh no, I know who it is, and it's Jared Dudley. You're correct. I thought it was going to take you till. It would have taken me till like the last clue. I think, good job. Clu ten was after that season, I played two seasons with the Lakers, winning a title in the bubble. Forgot all about that clue eleven. After I retired, I joined Jason Kidds's coaching staff immediately, where I still am today. I think it would have taken me till then to get it. That's a deep plan. Jared the journeyman, where there's like no one team you really associate him with. Those are the hardest ones whoa Okay, I have a guess A player for you, there's nothing to do with Darvin Hay. This quote's coming out now that if you're coaching a team and one of your starters is like ten games in a row just shitting the bed, what are you going to do? I saw that earlier today. So that's Austin Reeves. Is that what we're saying? Is that what we're talking about? Like in that d Loo? I mean, I guess I can't be a ron or a d right, No, can't be. But like I was when I read that, I was thinking, that's him justifying playing cam Reddish over Reeves for like that whenever that was like November. I think maybe I don't know, not a good look either way. He knows he's done, right. That's how you can't say I didn't see this quote. You can't say that he's It has to be Austin Reeves ord Loo, I guess, because why would he talk about Ruey like that? That's just weird. He's got to know. I mean, you don't say that. We now entered the segment of who's Bill Walton talking about? All Right, I'm gonna give you one here. Okay, see, I'm trying to decide which my favorite one is. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian just his left leg, uh is belong referring to Tim Duncan, Tony Koukoach, Trevor Booker, the names Dan, the names that he puts here so good, Kareem abdul Jabbar or Tony Delk Tony Delk. It is Kareem. That one actually makes sense. Shoot the skyhook off the left leg, the rare Bill Walton one where you could actually that's the problem is it gets you out of the mindset of trying to choose the correct answer. All right, let's alternate. Okay, who is Bill Walton talking about? If Blank continues playing at this level, he's going to replace Jerry West on the NBA logo. Kobe Bryant, Daniel Gibson, Kendall Gill, Eric Piatowski, Ricky Davis. I already decided that it was Daniel Gibson before hearing the other names. It is not is Eric Piatowski might be. But think about all right, Blank, pick one pivot foot please? Is he talking about Dale Davis, Festus, Azille, Brian Skinner, Chris Wilcox or Kendrick Perkins. What was the quote, pick one pivot foot please? Uh? Chris Wilcox. It is Dale Davis, Trace Jackson, Davis's dad. God, Okay, I don't want to. I'm not gonna spoil the rest of these. Go ahead. Blank is one of the true marvels, not just a basketball or in America, but in the history of Western civilization, minut Ball, Sean Bradley, Earl Boynkin's John Stockton or Jason Richardson Sean Bradley. Incorrect, it is John Stockton. That's disappointing. Okay, true, I have to read this one to you, then I know we didn't agree to this. This many Blank has completely changed the fate of Western civilization. Here the one likes to talk about Western civilization are Vitas Sabonis, Sean Bradley, Trenton Hassel, Vincent Yarborough. That's the deepest pull of all time so far, Drew Gooden. I'm gonna say Vincent Yarborough because if Mike knew who that was, who goes to him is Sean Bradley, Which is why I answered Sean Bradley to your your Western civilization one, all right, I'll give you one more then, Bill Walton in response to if he knows this player, yeah, he's a six s eight forward from the University of Arizona. Okay, Andre Igadala, Derek Williams, Richard Jefferson, Chase Budinger or Luke Walton. It's got to be Luke Walton. It is how I thought that was gonna be a thank you. That was good. I felt really good going into that because I was like, oh, he just has to be a six state forward for Arizona. And then Mike found all six state forwards for Arizona. Good job, Bike, We need one Japanning where it's just what who's Bill Walton talking about? Go for like ten minutes? I feel like the people want it, but Lord knows that, or just you and I want it? Well, yeah, somebody wants it. I guess I don't know. Multiple choice. Who wants Bill Walton? Sean Bradley, Trevor Booker time below. If you want to hear and you're listening this long comment on YouTube or in our discord, you can join our discord and let us know if you want more who was Bill Walton talking about? Let us refrain from answering how much Bill Walton is too much? Is there a threshold? Would you like to take us out of here? I would love to everybody thank you for listening. Thank you for contributing, both in the Bill Walton and guests the player realmst you people know who you are. We always appreciate it. As always remember rate, review, subscribe, tell your friends, tell your enemies, help us grow this podcast thumbs up on YouTube where else. If you're not subscribed on whatever, you're listening to this on your podcast provider, just please do that. And if you're interested in getting more involved, join our discord. Get some merch links for that in the YouTube and podcast description that it is going to do it for us today. We'll be back later in the week with some more playoff stuff. I'm not sure when we're gonna run that, but it's gonna be timely because everything changes after every single day. Closing has always shouts Franking the Tina Apologies Chair