I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis, And this is safe word. Safe
word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here
to support you, we're telling you all the details on our own sex lives,
relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy,
but we are sex therapists and what you here today may excite you.
Each week we talkle a theme related to sex, relationships, gender and more.
This week we're diving into the theme should I Stay or Should I Go?
Should I stay? I should I go? It's not a song,
it is okay, that's the only part of the song. I know.
When we were bringing up the theme earlier, you said, this is the
story of my life right now, and I don't know if we're allowed to
talk about it to thousands of people. Yeah, I'm inviting you too,
Thanks so much, Thanks for that invitation. I wrestle with this in my
romantic relationships because I find myself experiencing a lot of anxious attachment and romantic relationships
and it really spikes my nervous system. Get the slightest sign of like discontent
or issues I'm like, like do I need to make a decision? And
I really struggle breaking up with people. And I don't know if it's like
the therapist in me or what that is just kind of like I can make
this work, I can have a less compassion and empathy or I think more
recently, I've been thinking like the competitive spirit and me, you know,
I know we did like our assessment of whatever of our personalities and how competition
is like my number one motivator I think in life. And so sometimes I'm
like, mmmmm, no, no, I can't let it go because then
I didn't win. I don't know. I think that that's like more of
a subconscious thing right now. I'm just kind of dealing with some unmet needs
in a relationship. It's also really really valuable to me, and so figuring
out if the compromises that I'm making are sustainable. So I wake up every
day and I'm like should I stay or should I go? Exactly every day
every day. But I feel like it's often the avoidantly attached people that we
think about as being in this place of like gosh, do I need to
go? Do I need to go? Do I need to go? But
absolutely can be anxiously attached people too, like any attachment style even secure even
you secure people out there I never met you, don't, it's secure people.
Anyone could be in this predicament of wondering like what is enough to stay?
What is enough to make me go? Yeah, it's complicated. It's
it's very complicated for me because I'm engaged now since our last episode, Oh
my gosh, why don't we start We should have started with that. I
was like a month ago. Now you're the vest But yeah, like I've
also always that person that's like okay, Like I've got forty five backup plans
and that keeps my anxiety low. Oh and now we're engaged. Where did
all my backup plans go? Yeah? And then also realizing that like what
is engagement? Actually it doesn't mean like, it doesn't mean the relationship can't
end. It doesn't mean we have to get married. It's been really relieving
to remind myself and to have Mal remind me, like, just so you
know, this doesn't mean we have to do anything. Yeah, it's just
really really she knows, she knows us what I need to hear, even
though that's not what I want of course I want to marry her, but
yeah, I also I have parents who are not divorced who after they got
engaged, had like a very strong feeling that they shouldn't get married, but
because they were engaged, felt like we don't have an out anymore. You
know. Engagement isn't like a magic fix for the auntiness, the relations to
banciness. It's real into engagement, it's real into marriage as we know.
Yeah, I think that that's so interesting too. It is like the permission
giving that you're doing probably actually relieves a lot of pressure and stress, so
that like if you wanted to make a different decision or needed to that it
would be available. But also I think that that gives more permission to be
like I can just think into this and enjoy this rather than like like the
tension that you can feel, right, and like what it means for us
doesn't have to be what it means for other people, Like, right,
neither of us are like this means that no matter what, we are together
forever, it means like no, like we want to build a life together
and we're upping the stakes a little bit because we trust that that's where this
is going. And like that's what it means. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. Not romantic, but maybe the most romantic. Yeah,
I think that it's I think it's really romantic. Thank you. Yes,
we had some juicy, amazing, intelligent, wonderful questions. All the
questions are so good. I'm very excited. All right. The first question,
the first person says there is an acknowledged growing divide in libidos in our
relationship. One partner refuses couples therapy M dot dot dot dot dot dot no
question mark M one. I think the fact that you said that there is
an acknowledge divide is an essential part of this. And I also think that
despite being a therapist, I don't also believe that therapy is the only way
to address relational concerns. So I think that I would be curious as to
what is going on for this person that they aren't willing to go to therapy,
but are there other things that they're willing to do to talk about this,
Like what is the conversation? Like you can have conversations that are facilitated
by therapist but also within your relationship. I think that a divide in libido
is often people freak out because we have assigned so much importance to what it
means to have a really active sexual relationship and erotic relationship and a relationship,
and we're like, Okay, this is what makes us partners, this is
what makes us different from friends, if we're having sex or not. And
so I think people really panic about it. But having different libidos is just
really really normal. It just is really really normal. It's really, I
think, challenging to expect that you will experience the same thing at the same
time for years with another person. I'm so glad you went first. Your
answer was so much more nuanced than my original answer, which was like,
if they don't go to couple's therapy with you, they got to go.
But I don't actually feel that way. Part of me feels that way.
But you're right, therapy isn't the only way. It's like been pedestalized as
the way, and there are so many other ways. So to your point,
like, what other ways are they putting on the table in response to
reject you know, after they reject therapy, what are they offering? Yep?
I think also this is not the case across the board, but I
find that often new relationship energy for people who are not ace. In particular,
when the new relationship energy hormones, neurochemicals are raging, it can move
both people into a spontaneous form of desire, even if it's not their baseline.
And as the relationship continues, people settle sort of back into more of
their baseline kind of desire, and you might discover a year plus into the
relationship, oh like we actually both aren't spontaneously aroused by each other, and
it's not a failing on the relationship. It's just the natural biological course of
a relationship in some ways. But I do wonder I want your thoughts on
this too, Like if you really really want to go to couple's therapy with
a partner, and your partner over and over again, like won't even try
it, won't even go once with you, Is there a point where where
it's okay for that to be a deal breaker. Yeah, I think so,
regarding couple therapy or individual therapy. You know, I had a partner
who wouldn't go to individual therapy either, and I was like, you need
most too, And so I think for couple therapy, like what I think
folks are reaching for, there is a space to be heard and a space
to have like a break from what probably feels like repeated patterns and arguments and
wants a new perspective. So I think that like the reach for couples therapy
is the reach to like maintain a relationship, it's and not be alone in
this Yeah, yes, because I can feel so isolating and you know,
for me, it's challenging sometimes to talk about relationship issues that I'm having with
my friends sometimes because I feel a fear of being judged. And so I
think that sometimes I'm like a couple therapists would be great because they are invested
in me, but they're also not going to try and like fight my partner
or be mad at them when they do some fuck shit to me. You
know that I'm going to take your side, which actually is really comforting when
you're getting advice. Sometimes I think that it could be a deal breaker to
answer your question because I think that it could be like, especially if they're
not proposing other strategies, like if they're not like, okay, not couples
therapy, But why don't we really prioritize once a week we sit down and
have a conversation specifically about this recurring issue. Why don't we like, why
don't we try some date nights, Why don't we go on vacation. We've
been stuck in the house for this amount of whatever. If there's no proposal,
it's just like I don't know, but I'm not about to do anything
about it. Then I think that that also just would feel so painful.
So right now, at that point, it's almost not even about couple's therapy.
It's like, why are you so complacent in our relationships? That's the
thing that feels painful. Yes, period, But you know, there are
people that have medical trauma, have been traumatized like by true therapy industrial complex,
right, So like there are some cases where I do feel like there's
an exception there. Yeah, And I think it's also like, is there
an attempt to try, Like if somebody is like fine, I have mixed
opinions on this, right, because if somebody's like, fine, you find
the therapist, you do this, and then I'll go begrudgingly and then it
doesn't work. I can always tell when a couple comes in and there's one
partner who's like, yes, finally we're here, and the other one is
like whatever, I guess twiddle stumbs, looks at the phone and it's like
uh. And then they get off and they're like, see, it didn't
work, and it should have worked in whatever way that they defined work,
and it should have happened in fifty minutes. So okay, next question hard
to know how to balance things you need and things you want and thinking the
grass is greener on the other side, So how would you go about this?
Right? So, seems like this person is caught between the question of
am I missing something for real that I need? Or am I playing this
comparison game and that's what's making me feel dissatisfied in my relationship? Which,
oh my god, have I been there? I feel like we've all been
there, And I feel like the truth is like we will all on and
off throughout a relationship or relationships have the experience of the grass being greener.
We've all gone on that double day and watched another couple interact in a way
that we wish for and longed for. We've seen you know, the Instagram
posts since said why don't you ever do that for me? Right? Like,
this is a very common common thing we engage in our relationships. I
think there's a couple of ways we can sess this out. First, the
thing that you're comparing your relationship to take a moment to just ground yourself and
like the actual reality of what you do know and what you don't know about
that relationship right like you're seeing a snapshot. Are you comparing the worst moment
of your relationship to the best moment of somebody else's? Are you comparing your
real life relationship to a social media curated relationship? So like, let's make
sure that the basis of comparison is an even playing field, which in reality
it can never be because you will never know what goes on behind closed doors
of somebody else's relationship. And I guarantee you that it is not what you
think it is as somebody who does curate my relationship for social media? Like,
how many times have I posted a beautiful post about mal where I'm like
crying in a fight with her that morning? Many times? That's what real
relationships look like. So there's that piece of things. I think Also,
as you're assessing, are the wants and needs I have that aren't being met
in this relationship enough to make me leave? Oh that's a really that's a
really tough one. Every relationship has unsolvable problems. Right, We've talked about
this, So choosing a relationship or relationships is really about which set of unsolvable
problems you're willing to live with for a long amount of time. So don't
buy into any fantasy that when you leave this set of unsolvable problems, you're
not going to be walking into a different set. Don't leave this relationship with
a fantasy that the things coming up for you and this relationship aren't going to
come up for you again. They are. It'll be here or next.
And that being said, I don't know, comm like maybe you can fill
in the blanks here, like are there what would be a good way that
folks could could check in with themselves and sort of measure like this has gotten
to a point where I know it is actually not a problem I want to
live with long term. Oh, I'm feeling attacked by this question. Are
are I could see why? I feel like it's so hard to like this
person wondering about how to balance the things that you need and the things that
you want. I think that the way that I think about it is like
we all have like a variety of needs and wants, and like there are
going to be unsolvable issues and relationships. And it's okay if like I like
to go out to dinner and you prefer to stay in and cook and we
kind of like have a divide on that sense. But if I really really
love to travel and you hate to travel, and this is really big in
my life and it's not going to be a priority in your life. Like
my big things, my top of the list things, my non negotiable things,
they have to be like kind of like mostly met. If I have
like things that I really require in a relationship and my top three things are
met, but like my bottom four aren't, then like I think that that
is a compromise. But let's say, like my most things that are most
important to me in a relationship are not being met in this relationship, Like
I can't. I find it really really challenging to compromise on those things.
So I think it's like figuring out what your non negotiables are and if those
are overwhelmingly not being met, it might could be like okay to consider leaving
and finding a different relationship because you're going to have some things that are like
middle ground that would be like it would be nice to have this, it
would be nice to have somebody who is somebody who shares the same decorating style,
isn't me? Yeah, like things like that, and be like that
would be really nice to have if like we were just on the same page
when we're like decorating our place where like same vibes, that would be nice
to convenient. Yeah, yeah, it's really convenient. And then if it
was like I really need somebody who I need somebody who isn't going to raise
their voice every time we have an argument. Yes, right, And so
let's say that, like I do have somebody who is compatible designing skills to
me, but I have somebody also who raises their voice every time we're in
an argument. That to me, that tension point is something that I would
have to interrogate because I'd be like, this really significant need of mine is
not being tested. I'm being activated. I've communicated that I can't deal with
this, that I won't deal with this, but you keep doing it.
But it's nice that we decorate the same and it's nice that we have similar
hobbies, and it's really really great that we have a similar sense of humor.
But like things that make me feel like my wounds are being opened,
like my sense of self is being kind of like destabilized. Yeah, destabilized.
Like I think that that's kind of my approach to something like this,
sort of like we've got this sort of like red, yellow, green level
important things we need from a partner. And I think if there's if there's
something that's in the red really important to you that isn't there and there's forward
movement on it, yeah, that's that sometimes is the best you can hope
for it. That's actually amazing You've got a partner who cares about the things
that are important to you and are moving in that direction. I think this
also makes me think about how incredible it is if non monogamy is on the
table, or if you're somebody who has romantic friendships or like really deep lifelong
friendships that you know, maybe a question is is this particular relationship the only
place I can get this red normal thing? Right? Like Camille, I
love to travel. Maybe you know, maybe your budda doesn't love to travel.
You and I will go travel the world, so true? Asking like,
are there different relationships where I can puzzle piece them in? Or you
know this person I'm going to live with. This is the person I want
to be with long term, and I need this person to have this quality
even then, Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you've got something
potentially worth leaving over. Yeah, that's such a good point. I like
the way you thought about that. There's so much nuance. I think to
the question, which is why this this whole theme is like, hmm,
that's why this whole theme is torture because literally no one can answer this question
for you. Nope. You can answer the question and never know if it
was quote unquote the right thing, because like there is no right or wrong
Nope. So if you decide to leave, make it the right thing for
you, And if you decide to stay, figure out how to make that
the right thing for you. Harrian, Me and my therapist Will just talking
about this yesterday and she read me as usual she always does. She does.
She's the best. You'd have her on you We do. She Yeah,
what's her name? Nada nadaj We need Nada Nada, Please come through
and bless the people. We're going to take a quick break to talk about
an amazing show bedside. And I know it's amazing because a couple of months
ago I was a guest in the conversation is seriously not to miss questions like
better orgasms, build amazing relationships, talking about what does good sex mean?
What does that look like in practice? Each week on Bedside, sex educator
Tatiana dells into intimate interviews and explorations around modern day sex, dating, love,
and wellness, with the Little Manifestation sprinkled in there too. Bedside chats
with sexperts and wellness thought leaders about the many and unique approaches to sex and
pleasure, all while keep you curious, informed, and of course having fun.
You can expect topics like friend breakups, ghosting, tips from sex therapists,
and explorations into the energetics around love, partnership, and sexuality. Tune
into Bedside wherever. Podcasts are found, available on all streaming platforms. Bedside
is your go to resource for all things good sex. Okay, next question
yeah is oh, I'm so glad I'm asking you okay? Is breakup sex
unhealthy? Should you have a closure conversation before or after that? I'm glad
that you asked me this too, And I'm not glad that you asked me
this too, because I am a hoe so I have breakup sex like fourteen
times before with someone, so isn't unhealthy. I don't know. Maybe break
up sex also leads to you getting back together exactly, So not there's anything
wrong with that, But can we really call it break up sex more like
an interlude? It is like an interlude. It is like an interlude.
With my last relationship that ended, we were doing We were sexting a lot
after we broke up. Never never like had um like physical sex after we
broke up, but like there was the prospect, and with breakup sex was
very much on the table. It was like, should we just like get
a hotel, fuck each other's brains out, and then like that's it?
And I kept being like no, and we'd be like yeah, yeah,
yeah, and then one of us would be like, nah, that's not
a good idea, and then the other like, hey, I'm like that's
not a good idea. So I think that that is true. I don't
think that I've actually ever had like a closing this is the last time that
we're going to have sex moment, because if it's the last time we're gonna
have sex, I'm doing my best work. You are not gonna want to
let me go after that because I'm doing gymnastics in the bedroom. After that,
I'm gonna be like last time, okay, You're gonna be like,
no, marry me. And then I'm gonna be like you can't. So
um, oh my god. Is it unhealthy? Probably yes for me.
But I think that in general, I think I love you. Oh well,
thank you. I appreciative because I sound unpinged, unhinged today, so
now you're perfect. I think that it's like, it really depends on the
person. Like I think that some people really struggle to compartmentalize what something means.
And I think that if you are participating in a breakup, that maybe
you don't actually want the relationship to end, and you're like, fine,
let's have breakup sex, and you know that you would feel so connected and
so sad and you would be grieving even harder to have this moment with that
person. Think about if that would be a good decision for you, because
if you're if you're going into it like me and being like I'm going to
like do work, and you're gonna be like, let's not break up.
But then if that person is like, thank you, this is beautiful,
this is what I needed for closure bye, and you're going to be like,
wait, what are you doubly heartbroken? Are you doubly heartbroken? So
I think really asking yourself if it's in your capacity to do so. But
I don't think that it's unhealthy at all. I think that a lot of
people can do it and really have like this moment of connection and passion that
reminds them of this is a part of why we loved each other. This
is where we felt safe and held. We were able to like experiment with
each other in this way. We were able to do these things and like,
I love you so much and this isn't working out, but thank you.
I really think that it could be a really beautiful thing. And what
if it's like I don't love you that much, but the sex was always
the best part of this, So we might as well end with what we
do best. True. That's also facts. Yeah, yeah, we talk
a lot on here about how like we're so taught to compartmentalize the sexual components
of our lives. We often draw these arbitrary lines, and I think this
is another breakup. Sex is another thing that's been like so stigmatized because it's
sex. Like sex is something you did during the relationship, just like talking
is something you did during the relationship, just as crying was maybe something you
did during the relationship. So if talking and crying can be part of the
breakup, why does sex get put in this box of like something that absolutely
you should never do, right? I mean maybe because there is like a
you know, the reality that probably like shitty people have really abused breakup sex
and used people through it, and that's real. But I don't know,
I feel like we we shouldn't really treat it differently. And if it's the
thing that you need, if if if breakups hurt so much already, having
sex going to be the thing that makes them hurt. No thing already hurt,
So you shouldn't have breakup sex. You shouldn't not have breakup sex.
Like do what makes sense and maybe do what doesn't make sense, and then
have compassion for yourself. Yeah, we do a lot of things that don't
make sense. Yeah, that's I think the whole thing, Like romantic relationships
are just you know, they're really hard, and so I think that like
self compassion is so essential. And I think the second part to this person's
question about a closure conversation before or after. I think that that before or
after could be really helpful to be like to acknowledge too, like okay,
like this is something that we're going to do potentially for the last time,
and be in agreement and have some consent around that so that you know.
I think that just conversation and communication is so helpful because if one person is
like, okay, well now we're fuck buddies and the other person was like,
no, this was the last time again, that's going to be even
harder. So I think a conversation about like this is what this means,
and you know, this is where we want to I think that you can
romanticize it a little bit, like with me and my ex, even though
it never happened, it was like, let's you know, maybe we have
a hotel because we don't want to have sex in the bed that we shared
for a long time. Maybe we want to think about it in that way.
I love how caring you can be for an X through that yeah totally
and be like well, I like I can't really come over to your house
because then I'm going to be I'm going to be right back in it.
I'm going to be thinking about like all right now, let's order uber eats,
let's do our things. But if you can give yourself some space to
have it be more ritualized and be like, this is what we did,
and like thank you for this love and I love like this. This process
of deconstruction is actually opening something up for me because I'm realizing that for so
long I've associated breakup sex with angry sex, and that's actually not what we're
talking about. I mean it could be, yeah, could actually like what
if it what if it actually is like a really a warm, loving need
meeting, co created decision and there it's not angry at all. Also,
I hope this doesn't need to be said, but don't have breakup sex without
the person knowing that you're about to break up? Yes, yes, please
don't do that, Yes, please please please don't do that, and be
like you know what I've been thinking like after can you imagine? Yeah?
I can. I feel like it's maybe happened to me once, having a
flashback, but I can't remember who it was. I would be in a
homicidal rage if somebody yeah that so oh yeah rightfully so honestly, next question,
is it best to break up if I'm not feeling emotional intensity in my
relationship with my partner. I don't know for you, but like as an
inten city junkie, I know or I've learned over time that intensity isn't the
same thing as security. Intensity isn't the same thing as healthfulness, fulfillment,
consistency. It's not necessarily the thing I want to build my life on.
So it depends. It depends what you value in your relationship. If emotional
intensity is the thing you really love about relationships, then you might be somebody
that is in a series of relationships across your life or is non monogamous,
because it's almost impossible to have a secure relationship that sustains an emotional intensity.
So if you want a long term relationship, particularly if you're a monogamous,
you're going to have to go through periods without the emotional intensity. And those
periods might actually be opening up a big possibility of healing for you, because
what happens for you when things aren't intense are has your body, for whatever
reason, learned to regulate around a sense of intensity That can happen when raised
in chaotic environments. It can happen when we've been in chaotic relationships. There
are a lot of reasons why intensity might feel like the most comforting and comfortable
thing, but there might be a lot for you to learn in the stability
of a not intense relationship. So I don't know how to answer that question
for you, but those those be the things I'd be thinking about. Okay,
this next question is it kind of bounces off of that. So how
do I handle staying with a partner who doesn't want sex when I do want
to keep that in the relationship. This is really hard. It is hard.
I think a few things are coming up for me, like a partner
who doesn't want sex at all, a partner who wants less sex than you,
a partner who, like I would be curious to know a little bit
more about this, because if somebody is like, hey, we've been together
for this amount of time, and if sex has been part of our relationship,
but I'm actually not interested in it, and I don't want sex to
be part of our relationship at all anymore, I think that that would be
a hard adjustment. And if somebody is like, I am processing maybe some
trauma, or I'm really really stressed with this project at work, or and
so right now sex is not a priority for me. But it's not as
though I never want to have sex again. But maybe right now it's not
unavailable. I think that that is something that is negotiating. But I think
that if you enter into a relationship and you have certain processes in the relationship
and now those processors are being stripped away, I think it's okay to acknowledge
and have a conversation with yourself and be like, is this workable for me?
Right? Going back to sort of the red, yellow green level,
like, yeah, it's it's okay if sex being part of your relationship as
a deal breaker, absolutely, that's okay. I think for many people that
would be the case. Yeah, But to your point, Camille, having
some of the patience and wherewithal to wonder like is this a long term dynamic?
What else might be going on here? But yeah, I mean also
like this might be this is a moment where I think a lot of people
wonder about opening their relationships or moving into some form of non monogamy, because
if you have all the other you know level read beautiful things, and sex
is the one thing that is off the table right now that actually is available.
Yeah, Yeah, if you and your partner can regulate around that.
So yeah, so there are is an option C and D and e um.
Next question, I feel like my partner is more in love with me
than I am with them, but I don't want to end it. Yeah,
so don't end it period. Basically like the same way that Camille you
were saying, we're not all going to have the same lobido our entire relationship.
We're not going to feel the exact same way about each other. They're
definitely days where like I'm finding malway hotter than she finds me, or days
when like she is like feeling really loving towards me, and I am like,
give me some space. Yeah. So it's and I know, I
know this person is probably asking more globally, but it might be that the
whole relationship one of you loves differently than Yeah, and that is okay as
long as the dynamics created within that discrepancy aren't one where one person is always
sort of waiting for you to leave. That gets dangerous, right, Like
that's when when it's almost impossible to build a build secure attachment with one another.
But if if it's like I don't love them as much as they love
me, but my needs are met. I'm so happy. Yeah, I
want to go anywhere, and I can give security to my partner through those
things. I think also brings up the question like what is love? Like
you want to stay, you want to treat your partner well, you enjoy
being with them. Maybe it's not the love that you were taught as love,
but that sounds like a kind of love to me. Could be this
sounds like my ideal relationship that would love it. I actually would I love
this because I think that it would be great for your attachment. It would
be so great, Honestly, it would be so great for my attachment.
And like I love to like show up for people and like do all of
the things. So I think that I would definitely be able to be in
a relationship where I felt like this was a dynamic. And I think that
it does beg the question what is love? Because like is love? Like
like this person is like really verbally affirmative to you and that's how you know,
and this person wants maybe have more sex, or this person is like
showing you off all over Instagram? Is that like how are you determining what?
How you're like understanding what love is, and how do you know that
they love you more? And in this way that you're asking a question,
which means you must feel it in like a significant way, Like this person
is like loves me so much, and I'm neutral about them or and I
love them, I'm not like obsessed with them head overheels for them. And
I think that I wouldn't want that to end either, And I think that
it can be workable. And I think also if this person is expressing love
so deeply, like you are also giving and providing something to them, it's
very hard for like, you know, a fire to burn with no air.
So they are receiving something from you. Maybe you're not conscious about it.
Maybe you're not like I'm going out of my way to do this,
this and this, and I'm not like leaving love notes all around the house,
but like you are giving them something and they're experiencing and love for you
or else that would be really hard for them to demonstrate. That love would
be hard to demonstrate because it wouldn't have any air to feed it. I
think that's real. And I think like there's this one other dynamic that's coming
to mind that sometimes plays out this way. It's when one partner pedestalizes a
partner more than the other person, maybe pedestalizes them, which can feel a
lot like the love that we have for each other is different when in reality,
I think there's like some other attachment stuff that maybe as at play there,
Like it can be really uncomfortable to feel pedestalized by a partner. Now,
Camille, you probably would love this, so probably wouldn't be very uncomfortable
for you, but I love it. Please somebody, this is like one
place where different because I feel, on one hand, I feel like I
crave being pestalized. On the other hand, when it happens, it's really
scary because I feel like the only place I have to go from here is
disappointing them, And I worry. I worry as I show more of who
I am, my human parts, that that's going to phase out. So
I do wonder, you know, if the person asking this or other people
relating to this feel like they're being pedestalized, separate that out from love a
little bit, try to maybe find some language around, like what is what's
scary about about the discrepancy and does it bring up in security for you?
Because it could bring confidence up for you, like it does for you,
but it also I think could bring up fear. I think that's such a
good point. Sorry, you're going to say something I was going to say,
like I'm getting into all my attachment shit now. But some of us
had had parents that needed us a little too much, right, wanted us
a little too much, pedestalized us a little too much. And so if
we feel like that dynamic is being recreated, it might actually feel like unsafety
instead of safety, Camille, How do I know if I'm incompatible with someone
despite loving them? Like kind of a flip side in a way, there
are incompatibilities and lots of relationships and you can still love, and I think
that it doesn't. I don't think that one supersedes the other or means that
like incompatibility means that like love can't be present. Like I think about me
and my best friend, for example, she is not a physical person,
Like she does not like hugs really, and like if I don't see her
in a while, I'm like, literally, I'm like trying to Yeah,
I just want to scoop her up, and she's a little and I just
want to squeeze her and she'll be like hello, and I almost like we're
very incompatible in that way, but I love her so much and I feel
loved by her in a lot of different ways in which we are compatible.
So I think it's similar to kind of like that red yellow green light of
like, are my incompatibilities are they really really glaring and strong? Because in
like, total compatibility I think is kind of mythical, because I think it
also does put such a pressure on like we want the same thing at the
same time, we feel the same thing about the same things all the time,
And then I think that if we use that as a steer to identify
or justify love, that seems pretty impossible to me. So yeah, but
I think that it is important to interrogate within yourself if the incompatibilities are feeling
like they are hurtful to you, or it's feeling like gaping holes of unmet
needs, and that it isn't something that the other person is willing to compromise
on, because incompatibilities can often be talked about and you can be like,
yeah, I like to do this, you don't really like to do this,
or I communicate this way and you don't, But I'm going to like
learn a little bit more about you and will come closer to center. But
if it's like nah, I don't want to do any learning, I don't
want to do any investigating of myself. I'm just going to be over here
doing my thing and you have to come over here. Yeah, the check
in question that when my should I stay or should I go? Anxiety gets
high, that I ask myself is is the growth that my relationship is calling
me into, the growth that I'm interested in doing? Anyway? Yeah,
if the answer, if the answer is yes, if the incompatibilities, if
if pulling towards center is in center is where I would want to be anyway,
Like I want to be more patient, I want to be more comfortable
with my partner needing space. I want to be more okay with forms of
processing that aren't the same as mine. Like those those are values aligned changes
that I want to make. And so even though we might be you know,
quote unquote currently incompatible in those ways, it's pulling me towards center in
a way that makes me like myself more, which which makes me love her
more. But I do I have experienced I think many people have experienced reality
that, like, love isn't enough. And I think we're raised, most
of us being taught that love should seal the deal. It really doesn't.
I have gone through many a breakup where I was still very deeply in love
with a person but it was just so clearly not working. Yeah, So
so that does happen, and there's there's no shame in that, and it's
okay to acknowledge, like the love is still there. And also, love
isn't what makes a lasting relationship. Love isn't what makes a happy relationship.
I've loved, I love people and it's been incredibly unhappy. Why do therapists
always lean toward the couple staying together? Do you ever suggest a couple breakup?
Why? Or why not? M I totally don't feel this way about
myself as a therapist. In fact, like I started out as a therapist
and I was like, my default was everyone should break up. I didn't
tell anybody that, but in my in the back of my head, I
was like, none of this is going to work. So I've had to
work very hard actually to to believe and in relationships that are in a really
difficult it's a really difficult place, and I think I've you know, swung
towards center now in a way that that feels better and it is better.
I almost almost never tell a couple relationship what to do. Almost I'm almost
never. I will at sometimes give some self disclosure if I have, like
for many many sessions had for example, of feeling like, why is this
person staying they are reflecting to me that they are so unhappy they are reflecting
to right, And so I might bring that into the room and I might
say, I don't I don't know what's right or wrong, but I am
curious given what you've shared, like why like, And sometimes they answer to
that question moves the relationship closer together they haven't said why. It is important
that we as therapists come from a place of humility where we're like, we
have no idea where this relationship is truly, no idea where in this relationship
is headed. And that is now how I start any of my relationships with
couples and relationships is I have no clue. You all know way more than
I do. I have no idea. I can maybe start to make predictions.
I can map some theory onto this and use what I know, But
at the end of the day, Like couples who I thought absolutely would break
up have shocked me and stayed together for years, and couples that I thought
are were really incredible decided to end it well earlier. So over time I've
learned I know absolutely nothing about what will happen. Yeah, I'm the same
way. I certainly do not lean toward let's figure out how to make this
work. I kind of figure out, like, let's figure out what would
work for you all, And what would work for you is sometimes being able
to process a breakup with a therapist, And I actually really love that work.
And I've worked through breakups with people where we come and we like those
are That's some of my favorite for work. It's really cool. Yeah,
it's really cool of like maybe like the relationship was toward the end, then
they decide, and then we have sessions where we're talking about what this looks
like, what are the logistics of this, what are the feelings that are
left over? How do we navigate overlapping friendships and plans and businesses and all
of that. But I think, same as you, I would definitely like
more lean toward all, right, this is this is going to end at
some point same as you. Couples have totally shocked me. I think we
also use language like success or failure when it comes to relationships, and it's
like success if it's only defined as staying together forever, a very very tiny,
tiny amount of people achieve relational success, then so I think that to
call everything else failure is really fucked up. What do we need a of
this relationship? What are some changes that can be made, what are some
places where people aren't being seen, and how to empower people to make decisions
that feel authentic to them regardless of what I feel. I could be working
with a couple and be like every single time close a screen and be like
they should probably break up, and then they come to the next session or
like thought about what you said, and all of these things have happened and
change and I'm like, fuck yeah, like work like, I love it.
I'll be your cheerleader in that, and I'll support you in that.
I think it's part of being a therapist as being like flexible in the needs
of your clients. And it's not about what we want, what we think,
or what we think to know, right because because even imagine a world
where we did know how much harm we would do if we didn't let people
figure that out on their own timeline, yep, and for it to come
from them. Ye, Like, imagine if the decision to end a marriage
came from from us. Yeah, like that that's not our job, Nope.
Um, But I do think the reality is a lot of a lot
of clients understandably fantasize about that being our job, right, Like, I
think a lot of people really hope my therapist will say the thing that one
of us needs to say, but we're really scared to say, or we
are so confused, We've been confused for years. This person is going to
go to know the answer after an intake session. And so I think a
lot of relationship relational therapy is doing some healthy frustrating of our clients, letting
them be frustrated that like they don't know, we don't know. That's that's
not the answer they're probably going to find in talking to us. Yeah.
I feel like working with couples in relationships, like I very much am about
getting in the mud of not knowing with them versus like coming in and and
guiding them in any particular direction. Absolutely, and I think that sometimes I
will use that in the work and be like, what do you think I'm
gonna say? If I've worked, especially if I worked with someone for a
long time, or I'll be like, what do you want me to say
right now? And then they can do it themselves, because sometimes they are
like can this Can she just tell us to break up so that I don't
have to say it? And then that's like so helpful. I did that
in like an entire session the other day with an individual where I was like,
what do you think I'm gonna say? What do you think I'm gonna
say? And then I'm like, oh, that I should probably edited,
and I'm like like, was I right? And I'm like I don't know,
but answer the question the worst the worst. The answer is we are
the worst the words? So should you stay or should you go? We
have no idea, Yeah, we don't know. Hopefully this helped a little
bit. We really do not know, but we really encourage you to think
about what would make the most sense for you and knowing that that answer can
change from minute to minute and day to day, and it often does,
especially when you're in a stock place in your relationship. Be kind with yourselves
and know that It's all good. This week's safe word is Cardigan and was
given to us from SWIRLYI. I like both of those. I feel like
SWIRLI could be a good safe word too, but I'm like amm into this.
Thanks for the recommendation. Safe Word is hosted by Casey Tanner and Kamil
Lewis and it's produced by coordinator et Townsend. Our theme song is written and
performed by Emma Jane and Toria Rainey. To support the show, please follow
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Every other week we put a question box out on Instagram, giving you the
opportunity to ask for advice on the topic at hand. To submit long form
questions in writing or your own voice, go to the Safe Word pod or
Queer Sex Therapy Instagram page and click on our link tree in the bio to
write out those longer questions. If anything today made you curious about seeking support,
the Expansive Group has a great team of therapists and mentors to discuss challenges
you might be facing. Go to the Expansivegroup dot com. Submit a contact
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We'll be back in two weeks with a new episode of safe Word