WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.639 I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis, And this is safe word. Safe 2 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.800 word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here 3 00:00:11.800 --> 00:00:15.599 to support you, we're telling you all the details on our own sex lives, 4 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:20.039 relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy, 5 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:23.440 but we are sex therapists and what you here today may excite you. 6 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.000 Each week we talkle a theme related to sex, relationships, gender and more. 7 00:00:29.199 --> 00:01:00.079 This week we're diving into the theme should I Stay or Should I Go? 8 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:12.120 Should I stay? I should I go? It's not a song, 9 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:15.280 it is okay, that's the only part of the song. I know. 10 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:19.799 When we were bringing up the theme earlier, you said, this is the 11 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.319 story of my life right now, and I don't know if we're allowed to 12 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.719 talk about it to thousands of people. Yeah, I'm inviting you too, 13 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:34.519 Thanks so much, Thanks for that invitation. I wrestle with this in my 14 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:42.120 romantic relationships because I find myself experiencing a lot of anxious attachment and romantic relationships 15 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:48.200 and it really spikes my nervous system. Get the slightest sign of like discontent 16 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:53.400 or issues I'm like, like do I need to make a decision? And 17 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.519 I really struggle breaking up with people. And I don't know if it's like 18 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:02.480 the therapist in me or what that is just kind of like I can make 19 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:07.120 this work, I can have a less compassion and empathy or I think more 20 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:13.039 recently, I've been thinking like the competitive spirit and me, you know, 21 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:19.400 I know we did like our assessment of whatever of our personalities and how competition 22 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:23.599 is like my number one motivator I think in life. And so sometimes I'm 23 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.560 like, mmmmm, no, no, I can't let it go because then 24 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.199 I didn't win. I don't know. I think that that's like more of 25 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:35.680 a subconscious thing right now. I'm just kind of dealing with some unmet needs 26 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.479 in a relationship. It's also really really valuable to me, and so figuring 27 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:45.039 out if the compromises that I'm making are sustainable. So I wake up every 28 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:49.000 day and I'm like should I stay or should I go? Exactly every day 29 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:54.599 every day. But I feel like it's often the avoidantly attached people that we 30 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:58.800 think about as being in this place of like gosh, do I need to 31 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:00.080 go? Do I need to go? Do I need to go? But 32 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:07.199 absolutely can be anxiously attached people too, like any attachment style even secure even 33 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.560 you secure people out there I never met you, don't, it's secure people. 34 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.840 Anyone could be in this predicament of wondering like what is enough to stay? 35 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:20.639 What is enough to make me go? Yeah, it's complicated. It's 36 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.840 it's very complicated for me because I'm engaged now since our last episode, Oh 37 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:28.360 my gosh, why don't we start We should have started with that. I 38 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.960 was like a month ago. Now you're the vest But yeah, like I've 39 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:38.919 also always that person that's like okay, Like I've got forty five backup plans 40 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.759 and that keeps my anxiety low. Oh and now we're engaged. Where did 41 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:46.280 all my backup plans go? Yeah? And then also realizing that like what 42 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.919 is engagement? Actually it doesn't mean like, it doesn't mean the relationship can't 43 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.719 end. It doesn't mean we have to get married. It's been really relieving 44 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:57.199 to remind myself and to have Mal remind me, like, just so you 45 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:00.560 know, this doesn't mean we have to do anything. Yeah, it's just 46 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:02.639 really really she knows, she knows us what I need to hear, even 47 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:04.560 though that's not what I want of course I want to marry her, but 48 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:10.599 yeah, I also I have parents who are not divorced who after they got 49 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:13.639 engaged, had like a very strong feeling that they shouldn't get married, but 50 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:17.600 because they were engaged, felt like we don't have an out anymore. You 51 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:23.519 know. Engagement isn't like a magic fix for the auntiness, the relations to 52 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.240 banciness. It's real into engagement, it's real into marriage as we know. 53 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.120 Yeah, I think that that's so interesting too. It is like the permission 54 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.879 giving that you're doing probably actually relieves a lot of pressure and stress, so 55 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:39.800 that like if you wanted to make a different decision or needed to that it 56 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.040 would be available. But also I think that that gives more permission to be 57 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:46.800 like I can just think into this and enjoy this rather than like like the 58 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.120 tension that you can feel, right, and like what it means for us 59 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:53.600 doesn't have to be what it means for other people, Like, right, 60 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.959 neither of us are like this means that no matter what, we are together 61 00:04:57.079 --> 00:05:00.600 forever, it means like no, like we want to build a life together 62 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:03.720 and we're upping the stakes a little bit because we trust that that's where this 63 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:09.120 is going. And like that's what it means. Yeah, I love it. 64 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.480 I love it. Not romantic, but maybe the most romantic. Yeah, 65 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:16.120 I think that it's I think it's really romantic. Thank you. Yes, 66 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:23.040 we had some juicy, amazing, intelligent, wonderful questions. All the 67 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:30.879 questions are so good. I'm very excited. All right. The first question, 68 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:35.319 the first person says there is an acknowledged growing divide in libidos in our 69 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:42.319 relationship. One partner refuses couples therapy M dot dot dot dot dot dot no 70 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.279 question mark M one. I think the fact that you said that there is 71 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:53.879 an acknowledge divide is an essential part of this. And I also think that 72 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:59.040 despite being a therapist, I don't also believe that therapy is the only way 73 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.639 to address relational concerns. So I think that I would be curious as to 74 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:06.800 what is going on for this person that they aren't willing to go to therapy, 75 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:12.319 but are there other things that they're willing to do to talk about this, 76 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.279 Like what is the conversation? Like you can have conversations that are facilitated 77 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.680 by therapist but also within your relationship. I think that a divide in libido 78 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:26.360 is often people freak out because we have assigned so much importance to what it 79 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:31.399 means to have a really active sexual relationship and erotic relationship and a relationship, 80 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.480 and we're like, Okay, this is what makes us partners, this is 81 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:39.959 what makes us different from friends, if we're having sex or not. And 82 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:46.040 so I think people really panic about it. But having different libidos is just 83 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.439 really really normal. It just is really really normal. It's really, I 84 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:54.439 think, challenging to expect that you will experience the same thing at the same 85 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:59.399 time for years with another person. I'm so glad you went first. Your 86 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.120 answer was so much more nuanced than my original answer, which was like, 87 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.399 if they don't go to couple's therapy with you, they got to go. 88 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.720 But I don't actually feel that way. Part of me feels that way. 89 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.959 But you're right, therapy isn't the only way. It's like been pedestalized as 90 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.120 the way, and there are so many other ways. So to your point, 91 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.240 like, what other ways are they putting on the table in response to 92 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:21.319 reject you know, after they reject therapy, what are they offering? Yep? 93 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.079 I think also this is not the case across the board, but I 94 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:30.000 find that often new relationship energy for people who are not ace. In particular, 95 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.000 when the new relationship energy hormones, neurochemicals are raging, it can move 96 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:44.279 both people into a spontaneous form of desire, even if it's not their baseline. 97 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.959 And as the relationship continues, people settle sort of back into more of 98 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.079 their baseline kind of desire, and you might discover a year plus into the 99 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.360 relationship, oh like we actually both aren't spontaneously aroused by each other, and 100 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:01.120 it's not a failing on the relationship. It's just the natural biological course of 101 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:07.439 a relationship in some ways. But I do wonder I want your thoughts on 102 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:11.000 this too, Like if you really really want to go to couple's therapy with 103 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:15.959 a partner, and your partner over and over again, like won't even try 104 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.519 it, won't even go once with you, Is there a point where where 105 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.480 it's okay for that to be a deal breaker. Yeah, I think so, 106 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.319 regarding couple therapy or individual therapy. You know, I had a partner 107 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.680 who wouldn't go to individual therapy either, and I was like, you need 108 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.200 most too, And so I think for couple therapy, like what I think 109 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.240 folks are reaching for, there is a space to be heard and a space 110 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:46.480 to have like a break from what probably feels like repeated patterns and arguments and 111 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.279 wants a new perspective. So I think that like the reach for couples therapy 112 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:56.120 is the reach to like maintain a relationship, it's and not be alone in 113 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.720 this Yeah, yes, because I can feel so isolating and you know, 114 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.840 for me, it's challenging sometimes to talk about relationship issues that I'm having with 115 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.720 my friends sometimes because I feel a fear of being judged. And so I 116 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:16.240 think that sometimes I'm like a couple therapists would be great because they are invested 117 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:18.919 in me, but they're also not going to try and like fight my partner 118 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.519 or be mad at them when they do some fuck shit to me. You 119 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.320 know that I'm going to take your side, which actually is really comforting when 120 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.799 you're getting advice. Sometimes I think that it could be a deal breaker to 121 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.840 answer your question because I think that it could be like, especially if they're 122 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.159 not proposing other strategies, like if they're not like, okay, not couples 123 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.360 therapy, But why don't we really prioritize once a week we sit down and 124 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.759 have a conversation specifically about this recurring issue. Why don't we like, why 125 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:50.960 don't we try some date nights, Why don't we go on vacation. We've 126 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.279 been stuck in the house for this amount of whatever. If there's no proposal, 127 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:56.759 it's just like I don't know, but I'm not about to do anything 128 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.879 about it. Then I think that that also just would feel so painful. 129 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.440 So right now, at that point, it's almost not even about couple's therapy. 130 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.679 It's like, why are you so complacent in our relationships? That's the 131 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.159 thing that feels painful. Yes, period, But you know, there are 132 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:18.960 people that have medical trauma, have been traumatized like by true therapy industrial complex, 133 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:22.480 right, So like there are some cases where I do feel like there's 134 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.039 an exception there. Yeah, And I think it's also like, is there 135 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:33.200 an attempt to try, Like if somebody is like fine, I have mixed 136 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.759 opinions on this, right, because if somebody's like, fine, you find 137 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.840 the therapist, you do this, and then I'll go begrudgingly and then it 138 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:46.759 doesn't work. I can always tell when a couple comes in and there's one 139 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.559 partner who's like, yes, finally we're here, and the other one is 140 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:54.679 like whatever, I guess twiddle stumbs, looks at the phone and it's like 141 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.279 uh. And then they get off and they're like, see, it didn't 142 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.000 work, and it should have worked in whatever way that they defined work, 143 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:09.159 and it should have happened in fifty minutes. So okay, next question hard 144 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.919 to know how to balance things you need and things you want and thinking the 145 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:18.720 grass is greener on the other side, So how would you go about this? 146 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:24.399 Right? So, seems like this person is caught between the question of 147 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.399 am I missing something for real that I need? Or am I playing this 148 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:33.159 comparison game and that's what's making me feel dissatisfied in my relationship? Which, 149 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.240 oh my god, have I been there? I feel like we've all been 150 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:41.840 there, And I feel like the truth is like we will all on and 151 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.600 off throughout a relationship or relationships have the experience of the grass being greener. 152 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:50.279 We've all gone on that double day and watched another couple interact in a way 153 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.840 that we wish for and longed for. We've seen you know, the Instagram 154 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.679 posts since said why don't you ever do that for me? Right? Like, 155 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.320 this is a very common common thing we engage in our relationships. I 156 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.279 think there's a couple of ways we can sess this out. First, the 157 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:09.480 thing that you're comparing your relationship to take a moment to just ground yourself and 158 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.639 like the actual reality of what you do know and what you don't know about 159 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:18.320 that relationship right like you're seeing a snapshot. Are you comparing the worst moment 160 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.440 of your relationship to the best moment of somebody else's? Are you comparing your 161 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:28.720 real life relationship to a social media curated relationship? So like, let's make 162 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.360 sure that the basis of comparison is an even playing field, which in reality 163 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:35.279 it can never be because you will never know what goes on behind closed doors 164 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.679 of somebody else's relationship. And I guarantee you that it is not what you 165 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.960 think it is as somebody who does curate my relationship for social media? Like, 166 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:46.919 how many times have I posted a beautiful post about mal where I'm like 167 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.039 crying in a fight with her that morning? Many times? That's what real 168 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:56.080 relationships look like. So there's that piece of things. I think Also, 169 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:58.639 as you're assessing, are the wants and needs I have that aren't being met 170 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:05.039 in this relationship enough to make me leave? Oh that's a really that's a 171 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:13.399 really tough one. Every relationship has unsolvable problems. Right, We've talked about 172 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.159 this, So choosing a relationship or relationships is really about which set of unsolvable 173 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:24.039 problems you're willing to live with for a long amount of time. So don't 174 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.440 buy into any fantasy that when you leave this set of unsolvable problems, you're 175 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:31.039 not going to be walking into a different set. Don't leave this relationship with 176 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.399 a fantasy that the things coming up for you and this relationship aren't going to 177 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.240 come up for you again. They are. It'll be here or next. 178 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.240 And that being said, I don't know, comm like maybe you can fill 179 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.039 in the blanks here, like are there what would be a good way that 180 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.559 folks could could check in with themselves and sort of measure like this has gotten 181 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:52.440 to a point where I know it is actually not a problem I want to 182 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:58.759 live with long term. Oh, I'm feeling attacked by this question. Are 183 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:07.360 are I could see why? I feel like it's so hard to like this 184 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.080 person wondering about how to balance the things that you need and the things that 185 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.159 you want. I think that the way that I think about it is like 186 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:22.080 we all have like a variety of needs and wants, and like there are 187 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:28.919 going to be unsolvable issues and relationships. And it's okay if like I like 188 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:33.960 to go out to dinner and you prefer to stay in and cook and we 189 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:37.639 kind of like have a divide on that sense. But if I really really 190 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.519 love to travel and you hate to travel, and this is really big in 191 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.960 my life and it's not going to be a priority in your life. Like 192 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:50.080 my big things, my top of the list things, my non negotiable things, 193 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:56.919 they have to be like kind of like mostly met. If I have 194 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:03.120 like things that I really require in a relationship and my top three things are 195 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:09.360 met, but like my bottom four aren't, then like I think that that 196 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.120 is a compromise. But let's say, like my most things that are most 197 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.720 important to me in a relationship are not being met in this relationship, Like 198 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.919 I can't. I find it really really challenging to compromise on those things. 199 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.799 So I think it's like figuring out what your non negotiables are and if those 200 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.600 are overwhelmingly not being met, it might could be like okay to consider leaving 201 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.080 and finding a different relationship because you're going to have some things that are like 202 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.759 middle ground that would be like it would be nice to have this, it 203 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:43.879 would be nice to have somebody who is somebody who shares the same decorating style, 204 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.320 isn't me? Yeah, like things like that, and be like that 205 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.600 would be really nice to have if like we were just on the same page 206 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:52.600 when we're like decorating our place where like same vibes, that would be nice 207 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.039 to convenient. Yeah, yeah, it's really convenient. And then if it 208 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:03.559 was like I really need somebody who I need somebody who isn't going to raise 209 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.600 their voice every time we have an argument. Yes, right, And so 210 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.879 let's say that, like I do have somebody who is compatible designing skills to 211 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.879 me, but I have somebody also who raises their voice every time we're in 212 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.080 an argument. That to me, that tension point is something that I would 213 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.440 have to interrogate because I'd be like, this really significant need of mine is 214 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.480 not being tested. I'm being activated. I've communicated that I can't deal with 215 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:30.720 this, that I won't deal with this, but you keep doing it. 216 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.600 But it's nice that we decorate the same and it's nice that we have similar 217 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.080 hobbies, and it's really really great that we have a similar sense of humor. 218 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:44.080 But like things that make me feel like my wounds are being opened, 219 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:49.879 like my sense of self is being kind of like destabilized. Yeah, destabilized. 220 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.000 Like I think that that's kind of my approach to something like this, 221 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.240 sort of like we've got this sort of like red, yellow, green level 222 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.720 important things we need from a partner. And I think if there's if there's 223 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.839 something that's in the red really important to you that isn't there and there's forward 224 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.640 movement on it, yeah, that's that sometimes is the best you can hope 225 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.400 for it. That's actually amazing You've got a partner who cares about the things 226 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:17.279 that are important to you and are moving in that direction. I think this 227 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.880 also makes me think about how incredible it is if non monogamy is on the 228 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.680 table, or if you're somebody who has romantic friendships or like really deep lifelong 229 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:30.279 friendships that you know, maybe a question is is this particular relationship the only 230 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.400 place I can get this red normal thing? Right? Like Camille, I 231 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.759 love to travel. Maybe you know, maybe your budda doesn't love to travel. 232 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:41.240 You and I will go travel the world, so true? Asking like, 233 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.559 are there different relationships where I can puzzle piece them in? Or you 234 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.000 know this person I'm going to live with. This is the person I want 235 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.640 to be with long term, and I need this person to have this quality 236 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.359 even then, Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you've got something 237 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.599 potentially worth leaving over. Yeah, that's such a good point. I like 238 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.799 the way you thought about that. There's so much nuance. I think to 239 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:03.160 the question, which is why this this whole theme is like, hmm, 240 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.839 that's why this whole theme is torture because literally no one can answer this question 241 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.359 for you. Nope. You can answer the question and never know if it 242 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.680 was quote unquote the right thing, because like there is no right or wrong 243 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.559 Nope. So if you decide to leave, make it the right thing for 244 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.960 you, And if you decide to stay, figure out how to make that 245 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.079 the right thing for you. Harrian, Me and my therapist Will just talking 246 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:32.880 about this yesterday and she read me as usual she always does. She does. 247 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.559 She's the best. You'd have her on you We do. She Yeah, 248 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.559 what's her name? Nada nadaj We need Nada Nada, Please come through 249 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:51.519 and bless the people. We're going to take a quick break to talk about 250 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.400 an amazing show bedside. And I know it's amazing because a couple of months 251 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.759 ago I was a guest in the conversation is seriously not to miss questions like 252 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.519 better orgasms, build amazing relationships, talking about what does good sex mean? 253 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.759 What does that look like in practice? Each week on Bedside, sex educator 254 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:14.960 Tatiana dells into intimate interviews and explorations around modern day sex, dating, love, 255 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.279 and wellness, with the Little Manifestation sprinkled in there too. Bedside chats 256 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:23.279 with sexperts and wellness thought leaders about the many and unique approaches to sex and 257 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:27.279 pleasure, all while keep you curious, informed, and of course having fun. 258 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:33.279 You can expect topics like friend breakups, ghosting, tips from sex therapists, 259 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.200 and explorations into the energetics around love, partnership, and sexuality. Tune 260 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:42.599 into Bedside wherever. Podcasts are found, available on all streaming platforms. Bedside 261 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:48.960 is your go to resource for all things good sex. Okay, next question 262 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:53.960 yeah is oh, I'm so glad I'm asking you okay? Is breakup sex 263 00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:02.680 unhealthy? Should you have a closure conversation before or after that? I'm glad 264 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:04.559 that you asked me this too, And I'm not glad that you asked me 265 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:11.559 this too, because I am a hoe so I have breakup sex like fourteen 266 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:18.839 times before with someone, so isn't unhealthy. I don't know. Maybe break 267 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.240 up sex also leads to you getting back together exactly, So not there's anything 268 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.519 wrong with that, But can we really call it break up sex more like 269 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.960 an interlude? It is like an interlude. It is like an interlude. 270 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:34.200 With my last relationship that ended, we were doing We were sexting a lot 271 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:40.640 after we broke up. Never never like had um like physical sex after we 272 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.359 broke up, but like there was the prospect, and with breakup sex was 273 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.319 very much on the table. It was like, should we just like get 274 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.240 a hotel, fuck each other's brains out, and then like that's it? 275 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.559 And I kept being like no, and we'd be like yeah, yeah, 276 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:56.240 yeah, and then one of us would be like, nah, that's not 277 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.200 a good idea, and then the other like, hey, I'm like that's 278 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.759 not a good idea. So I think that that is true. I don't 279 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.519 think that I've actually ever had like a closing this is the last time that 280 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:11.119 we're going to have sex moment, because if it's the last time we're gonna 281 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.960 have sex, I'm doing my best work. You are not gonna want to 282 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:21.279 let me go after that because I'm doing gymnastics in the bedroom. After that, 283 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:22.400 I'm gonna be like last time, okay, You're gonna be like, 284 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.359 no, marry me. And then I'm gonna be like you can't. So 285 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.480 um, oh my god. Is it unhealthy? Probably yes for me. 286 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:38.240 But I think that in general, I think I love you. Oh well, 287 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:44.599 thank you. I appreciative because I sound unpinged, unhinged today, so 288 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.599 now you're perfect. I think that it's like, it really depends on the 289 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:57.279 person. Like I think that some people really struggle to compartmentalize what something means. 290 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:02.400 And I think that if you are participating in a breakup, that maybe 291 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:06.319 you don't actually want the relationship to end, and you're like, fine, 292 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:10.400 let's have breakup sex, and you know that you would feel so connected and 293 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:14.240 so sad and you would be grieving even harder to have this moment with that 294 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:18.799 person. Think about if that would be a good decision for you, because 295 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.480 if you're if you're going into it like me and being like I'm going to 296 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.240 like do work, and you're gonna be like, let's not break up. 297 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:27.559 But then if that person is like, thank you, this is beautiful, 298 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.240 this is what I needed for closure bye, and you're going to be like, 299 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:33.880 wait, what are you doubly heartbroken? Are you doubly heartbroken? So 300 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:38.599 I think really asking yourself if it's in your capacity to do so. But 301 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.920 I don't think that it's unhealthy at all. I think that a lot of 302 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:48.359 people can do it and really have like this moment of connection and passion that 303 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:52.640 reminds them of this is a part of why we loved each other. This 304 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.160 is where we felt safe and held. We were able to like experiment with 305 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.079 each other in this way. We were able to do these things and like, 306 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.880 I love you so much and this isn't working out, but thank you. 307 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.519 I really think that it could be a really beautiful thing. And what 308 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.920 if it's like I don't love you that much, but the sex was always 309 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:12.559 the best part of this, So we might as well end with what we 310 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:18.640 do best. True. That's also facts. Yeah, yeah, we talk 311 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:23.559 a lot on here about how like we're so taught to compartmentalize the sexual components 312 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.279 of our lives. We often draw these arbitrary lines, and I think this 313 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.039 is another breakup. Sex is another thing that's been like so stigmatized because it's 314 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.799 sex. Like sex is something you did during the relationship, just like talking 315 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.200 is something you did during the relationship, just as crying was maybe something you 316 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.599 did during the relationship. So if talking and crying can be part of the 317 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.680 breakup, why does sex get put in this box of like something that absolutely 318 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:52.319 you should never do, right? I mean maybe because there is like a 319 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.160 you know, the reality that probably like shitty people have really abused breakup sex 320 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:02.359 and used people through it, and that's real. But I don't know, 321 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.759 I feel like we we shouldn't really treat it differently. And if it's the 322 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:11.039 thing that you need, if if if breakups hurt so much already, having 323 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.799 sex going to be the thing that makes them hurt. No thing already hurt, 324 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.279 So you shouldn't have breakup sex. You shouldn't not have breakup sex. 325 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:23.079 Like do what makes sense and maybe do what doesn't make sense, and then 326 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.839 have compassion for yourself. Yeah, we do a lot of things that don't 327 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:32.839 make sense. Yeah, that's I think the whole thing, Like romantic relationships 328 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:36.920 are just you know, they're really hard, and so I think that like 329 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.599 self compassion is so essential. And I think the second part to this person's 330 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:45.640 question about a closure conversation before or after. I think that that before or 331 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:49.000 after could be really helpful to be like to acknowledge too, like okay, 332 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:53.200 like this is something that we're going to do potentially for the last time, 333 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:59.440 and be in agreement and have some consent around that so that you know. 334 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:03.240 I think that just conversation and communication is so helpful because if one person is 335 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.880 like, okay, well now we're fuck buddies and the other person was like, 336 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.319 no, this was the last time again, that's going to be even 337 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.400 harder. So I think a conversation about like this is what this means, 338 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.119 and you know, this is where we want to I think that you can 339 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.279 romanticize it a little bit, like with me and my ex, even though 340 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.039 it never happened, it was like, let's you know, maybe we have 341 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.799 a hotel because we don't want to have sex in the bed that we shared 342 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.680 for a long time. Maybe we want to think about it in that way. 343 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:36.039 I love how caring you can be for an X through that yeah totally 344 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.200 and be like well, I like I can't really come over to your house 345 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:41.759 because then I'm going to be I'm going to be right back in it. 346 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.640 I'm going to be thinking about like all right now, let's order uber eats, 347 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.319 let's do our things. But if you can give yourself some space to 348 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.279 have it be more ritualized and be like, this is what we did, 349 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.640 and like thank you for this love and I love like this. This process 350 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.839 of deconstruction is actually opening something up for me because I'm realizing that for so 351 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.920 long I've associated breakup sex with angry sex, and that's actually not what we're 352 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.319 talking about. I mean it could be, yeah, could actually like what 353 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:14.640 if it what if it actually is like a really a warm, loving need 354 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:21.559 meeting, co created decision and there it's not angry at all. Also, 355 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:23.319 I hope this doesn't need to be said, but don't have breakup sex without 356 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.279 the person knowing that you're about to break up? Yes, yes, please 357 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.079 don't do that, Yes, please please please don't do that, and be 358 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.559 like you know what I've been thinking like after can you imagine? Yeah? 359 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.119 I can. I feel like it's maybe happened to me once, having a 360 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.759 flashback, but I can't remember who it was. I would be in a 361 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:49.799 homicidal rage if somebody yeah that so oh yeah rightfully so honestly, next question, 362 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.640 is it best to break up if I'm not feeling emotional intensity in my 363 00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:59.640 relationship with my partner. I don't know for you, but like as an 364 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:06.440 inten city junkie, I know or I've learned over time that intensity isn't the 365 00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:11.599 same thing as security. Intensity isn't the same thing as healthfulness, fulfillment, 366 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.279 consistency. It's not necessarily the thing I want to build my life on. 367 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.599 So it depends. It depends what you value in your relationship. If emotional 368 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.920 intensity is the thing you really love about relationships, then you might be somebody 369 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.000 that is in a series of relationships across your life or is non monogamous, 370 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:36.640 because it's almost impossible to have a secure relationship that sustains an emotional intensity. 371 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.720 So if you want a long term relationship, particularly if you're a monogamous, 372 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.480 you're going to have to go through periods without the emotional intensity. And those 373 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:49.720 periods might actually be opening up a big possibility of healing for you, because 374 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:55.160 what happens for you when things aren't intense are has your body, for whatever 375 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.279 reason, learned to regulate around a sense of intensity That can happen when raised 376 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.799 in chaotic environments. It can happen when we've been in chaotic relationships. There 377 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:08.640 are a lot of reasons why intensity might feel like the most comforting and comfortable 378 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.880 thing, but there might be a lot for you to learn in the stability 379 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:18.599 of a not intense relationship. So I don't know how to answer that question 380 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:25.680 for you, but those those be the things I'd be thinking about. Okay, 381 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.960 this next question is it kind of bounces off of that. So how 382 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:33.039 do I handle staying with a partner who doesn't want sex when I do want 383 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:41.559 to keep that in the relationship. This is really hard. It is hard. 384 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.599 I think a few things are coming up for me, like a partner 385 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.839 who doesn't want sex at all, a partner who wants less sex than you, 386 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:53.839 a partner who, like I would be curious to know a little bit 387 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:59.240 more about this, because if somebody is like, hey, we've been together 388 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.880 for this amount of time, and if sex has been part of our relationship, 389 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.160 but I'm actually not interested in it, and I don't want sex to 390 00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:10.400 be part of our relationship at all anymore, I think that that would be 391 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.400 a hard adjustment. And if somebody is like, I am processing maybe some 392 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.480 trauma, or I'm really really stressed with this project at work, or and 393 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:25.839 so right now sex is not a priority for me. But it's not as 394 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.839 though I never want to have sex again. But maybe right now it's not 395 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:32.160 unavailable. I think that that is something that is negotiating. But I think 396 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:37.240 that if you enter into a relationship and you have certain processes in the relationship 397 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:42.000 and now those processors are being stripped away, I think it's okay to acknowledge 398 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.759 and have a conversation with yourself and be like, is this workable for me? 399 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.519 Right? Going back to sort of the red, yellow green level, 400 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.519 like, yeah, it's it's okay if sex being part of your relationship as 401 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.519 a deal breaker, absolutely, that's okay. I think for many people that 402 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.519 would be the case. Yeah, But to your point, Camille, having 403 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.839 some of the patience and wherewithal to wonder like is this a long term dynamic? 404 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.720 What else might be going on here? But yeah, I mean also 405 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.960 like this might be this is a moment where I think a lot of people 406 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.079 wonder about opening their relationships or moving into some form of non monogamy, because 407 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.319 if you have all the other you know level read beautiful things, and sex 408 00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:29.000 is the one thing that is off the table right now that actually is available. 409 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.599 Yeah, Yeah, if you and your partner can regulate around that. 410 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:40.039 So yeah, so there are is an option C and D and e um. 411 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.880 Next question, I feel like my partner is more in love with me 412 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:48.599 than I am with them, but I don't want to end it. Yeah, 413 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:55.680 so don't end it period. Basically like the same way that Camille you 414 00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:57.559 were saying, we're not all going to have the same lobido our entire relationship. 415 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.200 We're not going to feel the exact same way about each other. They're 416 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:04.119 definitely days where like I'm finding malway hotter than she finds me, or days 417 00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:07.119 when like she is like feeling really loving towards me, and I am like, 418 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.079 give me some space. Yeah. So it's and I know, I 419 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.079 know this person is probably asking more globally, but it might be that the 420 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:21.279 whole relationship one of you loves differently than Yeah, and that is okay as 421 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:26.200 long as the dynamics created within that discrepancy aren't one where one person is always 422 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.759 sort of waiting for you to leave. That gets dangerous, right, Like 423 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:36.279 that's when when it's almost impossible to build a build secure attachment with one another. 424 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:38.599 But if if it's like I don't love them as much as they love 425 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.039 me, but my needs are met. I'm so happy. Yeah, I 426 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:47.359 want to go anywhere, and I can give security to my partner through those 427 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.799 things. I think also brings up the question like what is love? Like 428 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:52.960 you want to stay, you want to treat your partner well, you enjoy 429 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.480 being with them. Maybe it's not the love that you were taught as love, 430 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:01.039 but that sounds like a kind of love to me. Could be this 431 00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:09.519 sounds like my ideal relationship that would love it. I actually would I love 432 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:15.000 this because I think that it would be great for your attachment. It would 433 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.559 be so great, Honestly, it would be so great for my attachment. 434 00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:24.160 And like I love to like show up for people and like do all of 435 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.839 the things. So I think that I would definitely be able to be in 436 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:31.599 a relationship where I felt like this was a dynamic. And I think that 437 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:37.039 it does beg the question what is love? Because like is love? Like 438 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.400 like this person is like really verbally affirmative to you and that's how you know, 439 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.640 and this person wants maybe have more sex, or this person is like 440 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.400 showing you off all over Instagram? Is that like how are you determining what? 441 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.720 How you're like understanding what love is, and how do you know that 442 00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:59.400 they love you more? And in this way that you're asking a question, 443 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.240 which means you must feel it in like a significant way, Like this person 444 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:07.720 is like loves me so much, and I'm neutral about them or and I 445 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:12.240 love them, I'm not like obsessed with them head overheels for them. And 446 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.720 I think that I wouldn't want that to end either, And I think that 447 00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:22.160 it can be workable. And I think also if this person is expressing love 448 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.400 so deeply, like you are also giving and providing something to them, it's 449 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.519 very hard for like, you know, a fire to burn with no air. 450 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:37.200 So they are receiving something from you. Maybe you're not conscious about it. 451 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.960 Maybe you're not like I'm going out of my way to do this, 452 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:43.079 this and this, and I'm not like leaving love notes all around the house, 453 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.319 but like you are giving them something and they're experiencing and love for you 454 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.839 or else that would be really hard for them to demonstrate. That love would 455 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:57.680 be hard to demonstrate because it wouldn't have any air to feed it. I 456 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.920 think that's real. And I think like there's this one other dynamic that's coming 457 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:05.640 to mind that sometimes plays out this way. It's when one partner pedestalizes a 458 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:09.840 partner more than the other person, maybe pedestalizes them, which can feel a 459 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:14.679 lot like the love that we have for each other is different when in reality, 460 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.559 I think there's like some other attachment stuff that maybe as at play there, 461 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:22.880 Like it can be really uncomfortable to feel pedestalized by a partner. Now, 462 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.760 Camille, you probably would love this, so probably wouldn't be very uncomfortable 463 00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:30.639 for you, but I love it. Please somebody, this is like one 464 00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:36.000 place where different because I feel, on one hand, I feel like I 465 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.239 crave being pestalized. On the other hand, when it happens, it's really 466 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.320 scary because I feel like the only place I have to go from here is 467 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:46.119 disappointing them, And I worry. I worry as I show more of who 468 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:50.960 I am, my human parts, that that's going to phase out. So 469 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.760 I do wonder, you know, if the person asking this or other people 470 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:58.519 relating to this feel like they're being pedestalized, separate that out from love a 471 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:01.400 little bit, try to maybe find some language around, like what is what's 472 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.599 scary about about the discrepancy and does it bring up in security for you? 473 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.079 Because it could bring confidence up for you, like it does for you, 474 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:15.320 but it also I think could bring up fear. I think that's such a 475 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.599 good point. Sorry, you're going to say something I was going to say, 476 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.079 like I'm getting into all my attachment shit now. But some of us 477 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:25.679 had had parents that needed us a little too much, right, wanted us 478 00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:29.599 a little too much, pedestalized us a little too much. And so if 479 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:34.159 we feel like that dynamic is being recreated, it might actually feel like unsafety 480 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:40.920 instead of safety, Camille, How do I know if I'm incompatible with someone 481 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.440 despite loving them? Like kind of a flip side in a way, there 482 00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:52.679 are incompatibilities and lots of relationships and you can still love, and I think 483 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.039 that it doesn't. I don't think that one supersedes the other or means that 484 00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:02.519 like incompatibility means that like love can't be present. Like I think about me 485 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:07.840 and my best friend, for example, she is not a physical person, 486 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:13.119 Like she does not like hugs really, and like if I don't see her 487 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:15.559 in a while, I'm like, literally, I'm like trying to Yeah, 488 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.400 I just want to scoop her up, and she's a little and I just 489 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.599 want to squeeze her and she'll be like hello, and I almost like we're 490 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:30.679 very incompatible in that way, but I love her so much and I feel 491 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.039 loved by her in a lot of different ways in which we are compatible. 492 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.199 So I think it's similar to kind of like that red yellow green light of 493 00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:45.320 like, are my incompatibilities are they really really glaring and strong? Because in 494 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:50.599 like, total compatibility I think is kind of mythical, because I think it 495 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:52.960 also does put such a pressure on like we want the same thing at the 496 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:57.440 same time, we feel the same thing about the same things all the time, 497 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.599 And then I think that if we use that as a steer to identify 498 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:06.760 or justify love, that seems pretty impossible to me. So yeah, but 499 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.960 I think that it is important to interrogate within yourself if the incompatibilities are feeling 500 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:16.079 like they are hurtful to you, or it's feeling like gaping holes of unmet 501 00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:21.840 needs, and that it isn't something that the other person is willing to compromise 502 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.840 on, because incompatibilities can often be talked about and you can be like, 503 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.079 yeah, I like to do this, you don't really like to do this, 504 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.559 or I communicate this way and you don't, But I'm going to like 505 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:34.960 learn a little bit more about you and will come closer to center. But 506 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.719 if it's like nah, I don't want to do any learning, I don't 507 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.559 want to do any investigating of myself. I'm just going to be over here 508 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:45.039 doing my thing and you have to come over here. Yeah, the check 509 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.440 in question that when my should I stay or should I go? Anxiety gets 510 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:53.639 high, that I ask myself is is the growth that my relationship is calling 511 00:37:53.639 --> 00:38:00.400 me into, the growth that I'm interested in doing? Anyway? Yeah, 512 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.639 if the answer, if the answer is yes, if the incompatibilities, if 513 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:07.960 if pulling towards center is in center is where I would want to be anyway, 514 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.039 Like I want to be more patient, I want to be more comfortable 515 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:15.840 with my partner needing space. I want to be more okay with forms of 516 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:20.000 processing that aren't the same as mine. Like those those are values aligned changes 517 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.360 that I want to make. And so even though we might be you know, 518 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:27.679 quote unquote currently incompatible in those ways, it's pulling me towards center in 519 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.480 a way that makes me like myself more, which which makes me love her 520 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:37.320 more. But I do I have experienced I think many people have experienced reality 521 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.199 that, like, love isn't enough. And I think we're raised, most 522 00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:45.280 of us being taught that love should seal the deal. It really doesn't. 523 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.360 I have gone through many a breakup where I was still very deeply in love 524 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.239 with a person but it was just so clearly not working. Yeah, So 525 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:57.920 so that does happen, and there's there's no shame in that, and it's 526 00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.840 okay to acknowledge, like the love is still there. And also, love 527 00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:07.840 isn't what makes a lasting relationship. Love isn't what makes a happy relationship. 528 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:16.280 I've loved, I love people and it's been incredibly unhappy. Why do therapists 529 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:22.119 always lean toward the couple staying together? Do you ever suggest a couple breakup? 530 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:29.119 Why? Or why not? M I totally don't feel this way about 531 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.880 myself as a therapist. In fact, like I started out as a therapist 532 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:36.440 and I was like, my default was everyone should break up. I didn't 533 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:37.239 tell anybody that, but in my in the back of my head, I 534 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.800 was like, none of this is going to work. So I've had to 535 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:45.679 work very hard actually to to believe and in relationships that are in a really 536 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.320 difficult it's a really difficult place, and I think I've you know, swung 537 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:53.760 towards center now in a way that that feels better and it is better. 538 00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:02.880 I almost almost never tell a couple relationship what to do. Almost I'm almost 539 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:10.000 never. I will at sometimes give some self disclosure if I have, like 540 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:15.360 for many many sessions had for example, of feeling like, why is this 541 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.480 person staying they are reflecting to me that they are so unhappy they are reflecting 542 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:22.519 to right, And so I might bring that into the room and I might 543 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:24.840 say, I don't I don't know what's right or wrong, but I am 544 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:30.039 curious given what you've shared, like why like, And sometimes they answer to 545 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:36.639 that question moves the relationship closer together they haven't said why. It is important 546 00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:38.719 that we as therapists come from a place of humility where we're like, we 547 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:43.159 have no idea where this relationship is truly, no idea where in this relationship 548 00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:46.599 is headed. And that is now how I start any of my relationships with 549 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:51.840 couples and relationships is I have no clue. You all know way more than 550 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.440 I do. I have no idea. I can maybe start to make predictions. 551 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.119 I can map some theory onto this and use what I know, But 552 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.400 at the end of the day, Like couples who I thought absolutely would break 553 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.679 up have shocked me and stayed together for years, and couples that I thought 554 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.599 are were really incredible decided to end it well earlier. So over time I've 555 00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:15.559 learned I know absolutely nothing about what will happen. Yeah, I'm the same 556 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:21.280 way. I certainly do not lean toward let's figure out how to make this 557 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.400 work. I kind of figure out, like, let's figure out what would 558 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:30.519 work for you all, And what would work for you is sometimes being able 559 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:35.760 to process a breakup with a therapist, And I actually really love that work. 560 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.360 And I've worked through breakups with people where we come and we like those 561 00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:43.320 are That's some of my favorite for work. It's really cool. Yeah, 562 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.119 it's really cool of like maybe like the relationship was toward the end, then 563 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.519 they decide, and then we have sessions where we're talking about what this looks 564 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.000 like, what are the logistics of this, what are the feelings that are 565 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:58.239 left over? How do we navigate overlapping friendships and plans and businesses and all 566 00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:01.679 of that. But I think, same as you, I would definitely like 567 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.760 more lean toward all, right, this is this is going to end at 568 00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:08.679 some point same as you. Couples have totally shocked me. I think we 569 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:14.159 also use language like success or failure when it comes to relationships, and it's 570 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:21.519 like success if it's only defined as staying together forever, a very very tiny, 571 00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:25.239 tiny amount of people achieve relational success, then so I think that to 572 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.320 call everything else failure is really fucked up. What do we need a of 573 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.280 this relationship? What are some changes that can be made, what are some 574 00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:37.880 places where people aren't being seen, and how to empower people to make decisions 575 00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:43.159 that feel authentic to them regardless of what I feel. I could be working 576 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:46.599 with a couple and be like every single time close a screen and be like 577 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:51.400 they should probably break up, and then they come to the next session or 578 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:52.840 like thought about what you said, and all of these things have happened and 579 00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:57.400 change and I'm like, fuck yeah, like work like, I love it. 580 00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:59.719 I'll be your cheerleader in that, and I'll support you in that. 581 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.760 I think it's part of being a therapist as being like flexible in the needs 582 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:06.599 of your clients. And it's not about what we want, what we think, 583 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:10.760 or what we think to know, right because because even imagine a world 584 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:17.280 where we did know how much harm we would do if we didn't let people 585 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.119 figure that out on their own timeline, yep, and for it to come 586 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.559 from them. Ye, Like, imagine if the decision to end a marriage 587 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:30.280 came from from us. Yeah, like that that's not our job, Nope. 588 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:32.320 Um, But I do think the reality is a lot of a lot 589 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:37.679 of clients understandably fantasize about that being our job, right, Like, I 590 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:40.760 think a lot of people really hope my therapist will say the thing that one 591 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.360 of us needs to say, but we're really scared to say, or we 592 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:47.039 are so confused, We've been confused for years. This person is going to 593 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.039 go to know the answer after an intake session. And so I think a 594 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:58.800 lot of relationship relational therapy is doing some healthy frustrating of our clients, letting 595 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.039 them be frustrated that like they don't know, we don't know. That's that's 596 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.119 not the answer they're probably going to find in talking to us. Yeah. 597 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:12.159 I feel like working with couples in relationships, like I very much am about 598 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.039 getting in the mud of not knowing with them versus like coming in and and 599 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:22.039 guiding them in any particular direction. Absolutely, and I think that sometimes I 600 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.199 will use that in the work and be like, what do you think I'm 601 00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:27.639 gonna say? If I've worked, especially if I worked with someone for a 602 00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:30.039 long time, or I'll be like, what do you want me to say 603 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.519 right now? And then they can do it themselves, because sometimes they are 604 00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:38.000 like can this Can she just tell us to break up so that I don't 605 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:42.840 have to say it? And then that's like so helpful. I did that 606 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:45.880 in like an entire session the other day with an individual where I was like, 607 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:46.920 what do you think I'm gonna say? What do you think I'm gonna 608 00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:52.800 say? And then I'm like, oh, that I should probably edited, 609 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:57.119 and I'm like like, was I right? And I'm like I don't know, 610 00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:01.400 but answer the question the worst the worst. The answer is we are 611 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:07.639 the worst the words? So should you stay or should you go? We 612 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:12.000 have no idea, Yeah, we don't know. Hopefully this helped a little 613 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.840 bit. We really do not know, but we really encourage you to think 614 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:20.679 about what would make the most sense for you and knowing that that answer can 615 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:23.559 change from minute to minute and day to day, and it often does, 616 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:28.880 especially when you're in a stock place in your relationship. Be kind with yourselves 617 00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:38.760 and know that It's all good. This week's safe word is Cardigan and was 618 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.199 given to us from SWIRLYI. I like both of those. I feel like 619 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.599 SWIRLI could be a good safe word too, but I'm like amm into this. 620 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:51.559 Thanks for the recommendation. Safe Word is hosted by Casey Tanner and Kamil 621 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:54.519 Lewis and it's produced by coordinator et Townsend. Our theme song is written and 622 00:45:54.519 --> 00:45:59.159 performed by Emma Jane and Toria Rainey. To support the show, please follow 623 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.199 us on Spotify and take a moment right now to give us five stars. 624 00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:06.920 We also love rave reviews on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. 625 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.360 Every other week we put a question box out on Instagram, giving you the 626 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:15.440 opportunity to ask for advice on the topic at hand. To submit long form 627 00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:19.039 questions in writing or your own voice, go to the Safe Word pod or 628 00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.039 Queer Sex Therapy Instagram page and click on our link tree in the bio to 629 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:27.679 write out those longer questions. If anything today made you curious about seeking support, 630 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.360 the Expansive Group has a great team of therapists and mentors to discuss challenges 631 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:35.239 you might be facing. Go to the Expansivegroup dot com. Submit a contact 632 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:38.280 form and we will help you get connected. For behind the scenes look at 633 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:44.039 safe Word and podcasts updates, find us on Instagram at safe word pod. 634 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.239 We'll be back in two weeks with a new episode of safe Word