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Hey, everybody, welcome too,
coming out pod, y'all. I'm very

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aware when I do these queer root
shout outs that I tend to more heavily

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favor the ladies because as a versioning, you know, baby lesbian. A

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lot of my queer roots were women, but I'm trying to expand because we

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have a wide audience. So today's
queer Root shout out, in addition to

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being personal to me, I think
anyone of any gender could potentially appreciate.

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Shout out to you. If your
queer root is Will Wheaton as Wesley Crusher

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and Star Trek the next Generation,
I again a lesbian. I had a

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poster of Will Wheaton on my bedroom
wall when I was a kid. I

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had a huge crush on Will Wheaton. He as a young man. Now

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he has a beard, he's like
a full ass man, but at the

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time he covers range of I think
twink, I think he looks like a

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baby dyke. I just think it's
such a versatile looking man. And I

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had a huge crush on him as
a child. So if you also did

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shout out to you, thank you
Will Waiting for helping me discover myself.

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Y'all. I am here today with
Sarah Mossman. Hi, Sarah, welcome,

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Hi, thank you for having me
here today. Thank you so much

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for coming on. As I said
off Mike, I'm always really appreciative when

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folks come on the podcast when they
barely know me. It's a big ask

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and it's just it's really wonderful that
people are open enough to do that.

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And so Sarah and I met in
a COVID Conscious creatives mixer, which is

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basically, as you know if you've
been listening to the podcast for a while,

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I am still very COVID conscious,
do a ton of stuff over Zoom

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with other folks who are also still
coviding, as we say, And so

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Sarah and I met in a special
Zoom that was arranged for creatives within the

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COVID Conscious community, so it covered
the wide range. It was poets,

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writers, filmmakers, actors, voiceover
folks, just anyone who sort of defines

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themselves as an artist and is still
being COVID conscious. Some folks in the

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community created a space for us all
to get together talk about our projects,

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and that is where we met.
And I obviously sort of just put out

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the call to any queer folks in
the group who wanted to come on the

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podcast, and Sarah was kind enough
to take the bait. So yes,

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that's how we know each other.
Sarah is a writer and a filmmaker and

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releases on her novels and other works
under the name s. A. Mossman.

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Sarah, do you want to talk
at all about any of you have

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a novel out? You just like
casually mentioned when we were talking, which

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is incredible, But yeah, anything
that you want to say about your work,

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have at it. So this past
year I released a novel. It's

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my first novel. It's called A
Tree of Life. It's part one in

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a series called a Dadalist Detectives.
It features a Asian American woman who is

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a detective in a city and she's
queer and she solves mostly missing person cases.

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The first installments the Tree of Life. Each of the titles centers around

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like the case the person involved in
the case, and the person involved in

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the case has a Tree of Life
tattoo. But in this story, her

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first love, her childhood best friend, comes back to town when like with

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a missing father case and she helps
her and they kind of rekindle their moments

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their romance while they find her missing
father who is involved in a lot of

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crime and stuff. I'm not going
to give away too many spoilers, but

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it's an exciting read as far as
I'm concerned. I wrote up my alley.

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These are like the intersection of my
two interests, which are true crime

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and anything queer. So this is
like a really wow. Okay, So

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when you're writing a mystery, you
have to like figure out the mystery and

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then go backwards. Is that correct? That's what's always been intimidating to me

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about writing anything that has a mystery
element is I'm like, oh God,

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damn it, I have to figure
out a mystery and then reverse engineer it,

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which sounds very challenging. But so
aside from identifying as a writer and

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filmmaker creatively, how do you identify
as a human existing in this world?

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Well, my pronouns are she her. I used to identify as lesbian,

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but my partner is non binary,
so I go by I use queer now

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just as a catch all term says
a little bit of explanation without having to

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like out my partner if I'm not
always aware of like how comfortable they are

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with like certain groups, So I
just say I'm queer and I don't explain

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anything. Oh, that's I love
that. That's very cool. I love

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Yeah, I love having an identify
or sort of shift based on Yeah,

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the comfort of the person you're involved
with. That's really cool. Well,

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it's kind of a strange to be
like, I'm lesbian but also my partner's

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non binary, and a lot of
people don't understan understand a lot of stuff

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about non binary and how like you
could date someone who's non binary but you

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identify as lesbian, so queer,
just working, Yeah, here, I

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fully agree. We have had discussions
on this podcast with folks who you know,

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do We have had some folks who
identify as non binary lesbians, and

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we've sort of parsed out it's like
for me and I am someone who is,

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like I'm very fond of like labels
and order and categories, and that's

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something that like I sort of struggle
with throughout my life because sometimes that's helpful

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and sometimes that is just like not
something you need to be concerned about,

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but my brain wants to be concerned
about it. But in terms of any

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of those identifiers, I've sort of
just learned that, like, it's so

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much more important to be comfortable in
an identity than to follow rigid semantic rules

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about like I've just had to let
all of that go as I moved through

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the world and as I talk to
people on this podcasts. Just so just

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letting go of all of that has
been a very big part of But I

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do love that you're respecting the fact
that a lot of people aren't there yet

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and that it's just like path of
least resistance to say queer, so that

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you don't potentially have to have like
a long philosophical slash grammatical discussion with a

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stranger. I think that's a great
call. So, Sarah, we know

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next to nothing about one another,
which is honestly, those are some of

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my favorite episodes because I get to
just learn everything in real time, and

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then I after an hour, I
feel like, I like I know someone

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so much better than what I went
in. So I'm going in fully just

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not knowing anything. Sarah, tell
me your coming out story. Okay,

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so this is quite the journey.
We have to track all the way through

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my whole childhood and into my adulthood
to get this, because this is a

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story about coming out to my mother. This is the most difficult one for

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me, the other ones, everyone
else, and coming out is like a

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continual process. Sometimes you choose to
come never ending, and sometimes you choose

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like to come out, and sometimes
it doesn't matter, like if you're like,

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if you're at work, you don't
necessarily have to tell someone you're out

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yourself. And sometimes it just creates
additional problems where now people have to have

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additional opinions about you. So sometimes
I don't always come out. But the

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most difficult one was my mother,
and that ties in a lot with my

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difficult relationship with my mother. So
this has to go all the way back

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to my childhood and then a little
bit I have to provide a little bit

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of background about who my mother is
and then the family life. Oh please,

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I love it. As someone who
also has a difficult relationship with my

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mother, I'm like, ooh,
this is right on my wheelhouse. Okay,

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yeah, So where did you Where
did you grow up? Where did

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this? Where does it begin?
So? I grew up in Baltimore,

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Maryland. I'm an interracial person.
My mother is black and Filipino, my

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father is white and Jewish. I
grew up in Baltimore, kind of straddling

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those lines between the black community and
the Jewish white community there, and my

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mother coming from such a diverse background. She initially came from she was born

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in Hawaii, but her mother's from
the Philippines, and then her father's from

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America, North Carolina originally. Okay, okay, So there's a lot going

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into the mix, a lot coming
into the mixt year. Yes, I

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grew up in Baltimore, Maryland,
big household. I am one of six

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children, so four brothers, one
sister. Yes, so kind of chaos.

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My sister likes to say we're like
the Gallaghers from Shameless. So it's

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a lot of dysfunction, a lot
of chaos, a lot of people in

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the middle. Okay, wait,
where are you in the order? Because

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I'm an only child. But my
understanding is that order is like very important

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to like personality and all that.
I don't know if that's like pop science

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or if that's true, but I
find a little bit true. I'm the

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second youngest, so my mother had
out Okay, Okay. My mother had

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children from the time she was nineteen
to the time she was forty one.

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Wow, that's a career. Okay, wow, oh my god. Okay,

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okay, Yeah, So by the
time you were born. Was it

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just like, here's a knife,
go play in the yard. Was it

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just like some she's over a little
bit a little bit. There was not

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a lot of oversight happening when I
was growing up. A lot of that

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oversight suft to my older siblings,
who were also like teenagers and children.

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So you know how that goes.
Okay, okay, all right, So

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when did you start to like or
I don't want to just I want to

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keep going, keep going. I'm
not even gonna ask questions yet. Okay.

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So I understand this is not particularly
usual, but I pretty much've known

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I'm queer my whole life. I'm
pretty sure I had my first crush on

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a girl when I was in pre
k at like the Hebrews. The Hebrews

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pre k school I went to.
Immediately was like, oh, I have

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a crush. We're gonna be best
friends. We're gonna take our naps together

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and hold hands all day throughout class. So I've always known, even before

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I had like the terminology to understand
it, the means to understand it.

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That was just where my interests lied. I didn't really was never really interested

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in the boys, and if I
was, it was more of like with

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my brothers, you know you're gonna
wrestle, I'm gonna beat up when you

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we're gonna you know, so like
tomboy kind of vibes. Does that ring

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true at all? Yeah? Oh
exactly. I was the big tomboy in

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the family. Okay, and with
the with the crushes super early. Do

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you feel like you had an awareness
that it was like because it's so hard

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when you're little, It's like,
I feel like little kids we sort of

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understand the concept of romance, but
obviously like sexuality is like way way in

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the future. But do you feel
like you understood that there was like romantic

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interest there or was it just like
bff, Like do you remember that kind

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of energy? I know this is
going back to when you're like a very

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small child. I can't say I
had a romantic interest. It was more

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of just like this fixation of like, oh, this girl was really cool.

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I want to be her best friend. I want to spend all my

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time with her. And I never
had that through boys growing up. God,

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that was just my first instance.
I think that's relatable for a lot

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of folks, I suspect. Okay, all right, So so that's pre

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k what happens as you're you're like
in middle school, high school? How

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does this sort of Oh and also
you know what what kind of if any,

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what kind of messaging were you getting
or not even messaging? Just how

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were queer people talked about in the
home? Like was this like it never

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comes up? Or was it like
snide remarks? Like did you do you

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feel like you had any impression of
like queer people are good, queer people

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are bad, queer people are neutral? Like what was the feeling generally speaking?

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Like we didn't It wasn't brought up, It wasn't talking about it.

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Yeah, it was not talked about. It wasn't until I was around middle

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school where I met my first like
openly queer person. But that was until

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that and I realized, oh,
so you can be gay, you can

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date other women. You don't have
to present as strictly feminine. This person

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was but presenting. Okay. So
that was my first awakening of like,

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okay, so this is the thing, and then I strongly identified it with

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it of like, oh, okay, so this is the thing that is

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what I think I am. Was
this like your ring of keys moment,

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This is starting to sound like so
very specifically, so my uh, because

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we spoke about my mother already.
So I have this big household already.

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I've got four brothers, one sister. We're all there. My mother also

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liked to what we call in my
family pick up strays, so that she

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would always be moving in at people
in need to the home. Yes,

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so I was about middle school and
she had brought in someone who needed a

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place to stay, a woman.
Her name was LaToya. I thought she

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was fantastic. She was my hero. She was I want to say,

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around eighteen, when I was in
like middle school, so like eleven twelve.

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I thought she was incredible. I
had never met a person. She

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was a butcher, like I never
met a person like this. And then

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she openly was queer. I never
met a person like that. She had

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a girlfriend. I never knew like
that was a possibility open my world up

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to that. But my mother's a
nutterishly difficult person. She has a lot

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of her own trauma and baggage,
a little bit of narcissis, and that

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comes out a lot. So inevitably, my mother started acting in a homophobic

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way to LaToya, which and then
eventually she kicked her out it was very

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stressful, and I remember the one
instance where I was like, very upset

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that she my mother was kicking her
out and I tried to give her my

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saved allowance and she was like,
no, I don't want your money.

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Yeah. Do your mother not know
when she took her in that she was

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queer, because it sounds like if
she was sort of butcher presenting your did

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your mother not or or was she
like I can handle this? And then

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she was like nope, too queer. I gotta go like what because that's

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such an interesting with my mother.
It's hard to know what's in her head.

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But the best I can understand is
she wanted to help this person.

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She didn't care at first, but
when she started being bothered and annoyed by

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this person, she decided to weaponize
homophobia. Okay, but as a middle

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schoo that put me on very uneven
footing with her, because it was are

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you okay with gay people? Or
are you not? Like is that something

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I'm safe to share with you?
Or is it not? And she's not

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a person you can speak to openly
and authentically. With that, she gets

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very uh intense, let's say,
so, it wasn't a yeah, so

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it wasn't a conversation we could have, and it wasn't a conversation where I

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could ask, as the child in
that really parent child relationship, well what

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happened? Why did you not want
her to be around anymore? So it

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was a kind of devastating. I
lost someone who I really idolized, and

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I didn't have clear understanding and the
only thing I could jump to wash And

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then LaToya also thought it was because
she was gay. So the only thing

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I can understand was it must because
she's just gay that my mother decided she

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can't be here anymore and she has
to find another place to live. Okay,

216
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.879
yeah, Okay, so that's a
big formative. Well that's that's a

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that's a trauma blip on the radar, I think we would call that.

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And and did you when you were
in terms of what LaToya kind of made

219
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you realize about yourself, do you
feel like did you fully put the pieces

220
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together at that point where you're like, oh, I'm like this person.

221
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I guess that means I'm gay or
was that still a little because middle school

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is like I don't know, it
depends like do you feel like you that

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was the turning point and you realized
from that point on, or was that

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just sort of the beginning of you
understanding what that meant for you. I

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think it was a turning point because
every moment after that, I just identified

226
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as gay or like lesbian, whatever
you want to say. Yeah, I

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just identified as gay. So yeah, it was a huge moment, but

228
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also a very scary moment because it's
like, Okay, I don't know how

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my family will react. I didn't
even know this was a thing a year

230
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ago, and now I'm like it's
a thing. That's great. Oh it's

231
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a thing. Oh no, it's
scary. Yeah, it's a lot of

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input to receive at one time.
Okay, okay, were you telling it?

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Sounds like you weren't talking about it
to your family, which was probably

234
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a wise call. But were you
using words like gay, career, lesbian,

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like at school, like with your
friends, like like who were you

236
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sharing this with? Or was it
just sort of like journaling and like admitting

237
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it to yourself? So I didn't. I didn't start sharing this un till

238
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I started high school, so would
be another year or two. Uh.

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This was the phase where I'm on
the home computer trying to hide history,

240
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where I'm researching what is this?
What is that? Uh? And this

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was in the night late nineties,
early two thousands, so that era of

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the Internet, and I'm very much
not being watched by anyone, so I

243
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had pretty much unmitigated access, and
I'm looking at all these different keywords and

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trying to hide them in the search
history. Also Okay, all right,

245
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okay, I gotcha. Okay,
So so then so you go into high

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school or let me know if I'm
skipping over anything, but yeah, what

247
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happens as as you as you get
older, probably puberty is happening. Has

248
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just happened somewhere around this time.
So a very tumultuous phase of my life

249
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began not that long after LaToya moved
out of our house, because at that

250
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point, my eldest brother moved in, and he has a lot of problems.

251
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He's a very abusive person. Unfortunately, he's someone I'm no contact with

252
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now, but at that time he
moved in, he was very abusive and

253
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he was very abusive towards me,
and this kind of triggered a domestic violence

254
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situation which led to me right before, like not right before I started high

255
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school, being emancipated from my family. Actually, Oh wow, Okay,

256
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yes, okay, it was a
very explained I don't know if we've ever

257
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had and we've certainly had folks who
cut ties and or moved out, but

258
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I don't know if I've ever had
anyone on the podcast who actually like became

259
00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.720
emancipated. Can you talk about what
that means, like like legally, like

260
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what that what rights that gave you
are? Like? What? How that?

261
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.200
How that works? Did you have
to like go to court, like

262
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like get a lawyer as a teenager? Like how did you? How did

263
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you do this? It is a
very complicated situation. I personally didn't have

264
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to go to court. This is
my sister is like one of my best

265
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friends, and this was a thing
that she led the charge on and really

266
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handled for me. So she worked
out with the judge because my parents did

267
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not want to press charges against my
older brother, my oldest brother. So

268
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it was kind of a situation like
that where my sister worked with the judge

269
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and they decided the best way for
me to be safe and protected was to

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emancipate me in order to get things
like a restraining order and things like that.

271
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I gotcha. Okay, how old
were it? Was right before my

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fourteenth It was between my thirteenth and
fourteenth birthday, so it was like right

273
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before that fourteenth birthday. It was
kind of a so I've just figured out

274
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I'm queer. There's just like new
domestic violence element attitude my home. This

275
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is like a perfect storm of yeah, okay, wow, all right,

276
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So did you once you were emancipated, did you move out? How did

277
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that? No? I didn't have
another place to go. So even though

278
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at this point, legally my mother
my father didn't live with us this time,

279
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and legally now neither of my parents
have to be responsible for me,

280
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but I don't have another place to
go. So I lived with my mother

281
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for throughout the duration of high school
more or less. But that is also

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why my coming outstore was got so
much more complicated, because it's like,

283
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I don't know how she actually feels
about queer people. I can't ask that

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question. But also now I'm acutely
aware that, like, she doesn't have

285
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to keep me here, so she
decides to have a problem, I could

286
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be out on the street tomorrow.
So it added a lot of more intense

287
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.240
intensity to that because like, at
the same time, around the same time,

288
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I had come out to my father
and my sister, and they didn't

289
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care, and they were like,
we'll keep it a secret. We won't

290
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tell your mother, and they did. They never talked to her about it

291
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until I was right I had come
out to her my mother, but they

292
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also didn't know anything about queer people, so it's like they really couldn't help

293
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me with any of that. They
were just like, we'll do our best

294
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to protect you, but there really
wasn't another place for me to live,

295
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so I had you stay with my
mother, And like, obviously at fourteen,

296
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I can't get a job, I
have no resources, so I'm here.

297
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I just have to kind of wade
out the clock to like I can

298
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really afford you, like get a
job and leave home and do all of

299
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those things. Oh my, okay, I cannot imagine dealing with all of

300
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this on top just like being that
age and being in high school is already

301
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such like a living nightmare of like
drama and like emo feelings, but just

302
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:44.960
you're having all of this on top
of it. It's it's yeah, that

303
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definitely started my EMO phase. I
did have the full blown emo phase with

304
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all the hot topic gear. Yours
was pretty valid, though, like I

305
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.640
feel like yours was earned in a
way that a lot of our EMO phase

306
00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:03.319
is more sort of self generated drama, So props to Yeah. So all

307
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of this was the background in which
I was starting high school, and my

308
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high school was another unique experience.
So I grew up in a not great

309
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neighborhood and the high school that I
was initially supposed to go to was a

310
00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:19.720
very bad high school. Let's say
it was the one where like kind of

311
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the high school where they have like
the metal detectors at the door to make

312
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sure nobody brings a weapon or a
gun to school. There's a lot of

313
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gang activity happening at this school.
So I at that home also made the

314
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.759
active choice to apply to a high
school that it was an arts high school.

315
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You had to apply, you had
to do an interview process or to

316
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get in and do their arts programs
there. And it was all the way

317
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across town. It's looking about an
hour commute every day to get back and

318
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:48.680
forth to school, so catching buses
that kind of stuff. They should have

319
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.200
to get up at like five am
to get riad to school to take the

320
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bus across town to go to the
school. But the great thing was this

321
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school is kind of my salvation,
Like my home life was terrible, but

322
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like it's an art school. It
was a majority I want to say it

323
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was seventy percent women or girls.
Wow, yeah, and a lot of

324
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:08.039
openly queer people. We were kind
of globally named. Yeah. In town,

325
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:12.160
we were kind of the called the
gay school because we had a lot

326
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of women and a lot of openly
queer people LGBTQ people there. And I

327
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didn't know that when I applied and
got in, but I quickly was like,

328
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oh wow, this is the best
possible scenario for me. Good.

329
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:29.480
That's so great. You were like
a little grown up. I can't believe

330
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.119
you were doing all this stuff like
on your own, like like getting emancipated

331
00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:38.119
and applying to schools an hour is
I'm thinking of like what I was doing

332
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:42.680
at fourteen, and it was not
as impressive. So this is really amazing.

333
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.119
So you're in that school. Was
this the first time you felt comfortable

334
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.799
to be out like just on a
day to day basis or were you still

335
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.839
sort of like playing at close to
the chest, Like what was what was

336
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:02.000
your your feeling once you started there? Freshman year was a lot of me

337
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:07.839
getting my bearings but very quickly I
was out and open specifically at school,

338
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.880
nowhere else. So that was my
So like when people tell me, they're

339
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:12.319
like, oh, high school was
hell for me. I would never repeat

340
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.599
high school. It was the worst
time in my life. I was like,

341
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.400
actually, high school was. I
won't know if I would repeat it.

342
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.359
But high school was like the best
time of my life as far comparatively

343
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.519
to other people's high school experience.
It was very artistic, like I'm surrounded

344
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:32.559
by painters and writers and actors and
singers and a lot of queer people and

345
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.920
a lot of queer teachers, and
just that was not a concern there of

346
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.599
like oh you're queer, Like no
one was going to bully you about it.

347
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.480
It was illuminating. It changed my
life. And I also want to

348
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.839
speak about like the first day of
high school is when I met one of

349
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.880
my lifelong best friends named Justin.
I love him to pieces were still friends.

350
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.200
I was the bridesmaid at his wedding
to his husband. They ran a

351
00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.480
fantastic charity in my hometown called Unmatched
Athlete where they help but LGBTQ plus kids

352
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:07.279
get into sports. It's a wonderful
a wonderful charity. And I bring this

353
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:11.200
up because Justin is also interracial,
also Jewish, and also gay, so

354
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.559
he was like the male version of
me, and we kind of had these

355
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:21.119
coming the terms coming out journeys together. So I felt like so much solidarity

356
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.240
that I had never felt before in
my life. God, that's oh,

357
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:30.240
that's so I love that. Yeah. The first I in the very first

358
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.319
episode of this podcast many years ago, my former co hosts and I tell

359
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.240
each other are coming out stories,
and the first person I came out to

360
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.160
was my gay high school best friend
where we came out to each other.

361
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:47.480
So yeah, that's uh that I
feel very I feel connected to that story

362
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:55.519
and that experience. So even though
my homelife was still really bad, really

363
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.359
bad and really on unstable footing,
at least I had this home away from

364
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.160
home where I can go hang out
for most of the day before I would

365
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.640
have to come home and have to
do a lot of housework and baby baby

366
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.440
care for the family members that my
mother had dictated to me. I had

367
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.599
to deal with a lot of like
yelling, like abusive language, things like

368
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.759
that, but at least, like
I got to go somewhere else and I

369
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:23.000
felt at home there. So like
gay Cinderella. It's like this, That's

370
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:33.240
how I'm going to conceive it.
Yeah, high school was a transformative experience.

371
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.359
And I know that's not the story
for a lot of people, but

372
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.240
that was my safe place. It
was a pain to get there, pain

373
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.400
to get home. I was exhausted
all the time, but I had one

374
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.279
safe space where I could be gay
and I could be my strange, bizarre

375
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.640
self and no one was gonna question
it and I could be very Emoh.

376
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.359
I love that. And in terms
so when a lot of folks who I've

377
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:59.400
spoke it to this podcast, who
are dealing with similar, like real life

378
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:07.480
dificult stuff, report that in terms
of their queerness, like that sometimes just

379
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.240
has to take a back burner because
they're dealing with like a media day to

380
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.799
day like crisis control, and so
it sounds like at least you're like you've

381
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.519
got justin and you're like and you've
got teachers and you can be out.

382
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.880
But in terms of like any kind
of crushes or interest or anything, was

383
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.079
that just like the furthest thing from
your mind because you're in survival mode,

384
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:30.720
or were you able to sort of
come into your own in terms of like

385
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:36.079
what this means not just for like
the concept of it, but in practice,

386
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.519
like who, like who you could
date or who you could be interested

387
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.839
in. So once I come to
terms with it during freshman year, I'm

388
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.839
gonna go ahead and just be honest. I was pretty girl crazy. But

389
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.839
because I went to a predominantly female
school and a lot of lgbtq P people,

390
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.799
it was not hard to date.
I had a female data homecoming and

391
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.519
to prompt and it wasn't a problem. I had like one of my first

392
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.680
kisses on the dance floor at a
homecoming dance. And this is like two

393
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:10.200
thousand and three. You know,
my god, I fucking love it.

394
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:14.240
That's very cool. Okay, great, Oh, I'm so glad that you

395
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.000
got to, like you got to
have like the fun high school crush experience,

396
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:23.799
and that's awesome. Okay, okay, But like high school wasn't all

397
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.720
perfect. So when I was about
fifteen, there was a lot more drama

398
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:32.039
again at home, and I actually
was at that point kicked out of my

399
00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.079
mother's home for about a month and
I was CouchSurfing around different people's home places.

400
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:40.799
Eventually I had to move back in, but that really highlighted to me

401
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:42.079
of like, okay, yeah,
I really, like I thought, I'm

402
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.039
really not on stable footing, Like
my mother decided she didn't want me here.

403
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.759
Eventually she did want me back,
and I didn't have a place to

404
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.960
go, so I was like,
it's better to have a more quote unquote

405
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:57.759
stable home than couch surfing around whoever
will let me stay. And this is

406
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:03.720
all still before or I'm assuming you
have let on at all to her that

407
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:08.279
you're queer. Is this Yes,
she has no idea that I'm gay,

408
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.720
not as far as I'm aware,
not an inkling of that. But that

409
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:18.599
was like a very difficult and month
of my life. And then it wasn't

410
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.440
necessarily a good feeling to have to
go back to an abusive household. But

411
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.279
also it's like, you don't have
choices. I have no money, I

412
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.759
have no resources. My family members
don't could take me, don't have the

413
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.359
means to take me. So it's
like, what do you do? You

414
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:37.119
go back? Yeah? Okay,
were you looking towards the idea of college

415
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:42.640
as like, was that like your
ticket kind of out of the situation you

416
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:48.720
were in or was college not I
mean financially, was that even a possibility,

417
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:57.039
Like what was your sort of escape
route plan. Mostly I was just

418
00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:00.440
waiting for adulthood where I could go
get a job and start working. I

419
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:07.400
didn't decide to go to college until
maybe six or it's between six and eight

420
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.759
months before college my high school graduation. Wow, I was just like,

421
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.599
I need to get old enough and
get enough resources to get out of here.

422
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.079
But I didn't necessarily want to go
to college because I already felt so

423
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.240
adult. Yeah, and I got
one hundred percent. Yeah, that feels

424
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.759
like maybe like four year delay of
game. You're like, I'm yeah,

425
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.759
okay, Okay, So you were
sort of set on like getting a job,

426
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.440
getting your financial situation together so that
you can get away from having to

427
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:40.119
live at home. That was your
driving force. Okay, but then it

428
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.240
sounds like, but then that did
change, Like right before graduation you were

429
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:48.039
like, maybe I won't go to
college. What what? I'm sure it

430
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.880
wasn't said that lightly, but like, what what ended up happening after high

431
00:30:52.920 --> 00:31:00.000
school for you? Okay, let's
fast forward. So let's see fast forward

432
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.680
high school. We're coming up around
graduation. At that time, I was

433
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.000
so into the music scene. I
wanted to create my own independent recording label.

434
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:11.519
I had recruited friends who were into
it. I had been very involved

435
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.599
in that scene in my community,
so I'd be going to like the basement

436
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.279
shows and the underground shows and meeting
all the different musicians and helping them set

437
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:23.839
up their days. Cool. That's
so fucking cool. Okay. But obviously,

438
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.440
like we're like seventeen, so it
didn't work out, and I was

439
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.119
like, okay, so this is
not going to work out. What am

440
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.440
I going to do? I'd already
been very in love with writing and filmmaking,

441
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:34.240
so I was like, Okay,
I guess I'll go to college to

442
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:38.119
try and become a filmmaker and a
writer. So that was like kind of

443
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.640
a last minute decision, but also
a transformative one. It changed my whole

444
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:45.319
course of my life because I've been
doing writing and filmmaking the whole time since

445
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.720
my whole adult life. Now,
wow, okay, so where did did

446
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:56.759
you end up leaving Baltimore? Like, where did you end up for college?

447
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.000
I ended up going to Florida to
go to college. Okay, so

448
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:05.480
you have some distance now from I
was on the first thing with wheels heading

449
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:10.359
out of town. I totally Amtrak. That's the amtrack, oh for me?

450
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.920
And it sounds like you were like
a lot more out or at least

451
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:19.720
certainly a lot more out, but
also more comfortable with your queerness. But

452
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.400
like for me, uh, because
I grew up in Connecticut and my folks

453
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.559
were having me look at like there
were so many like great East Coast colleges,

454
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:29.480
but I ended up going to school
just outside of Chicago. And I

455
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:35.319
think a big part of that decision
was I needed did like physical distance from

456
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.400
my parents in order to be like. There was something about like being in

457
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.960
a different time zone that was like, Okay, now I can like be

458
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.960
gay, Like I don't know that, just for some reason it felt important

459
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.279
was that physical space. So I'm
hoping that like when you're that you get

460
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.079
that much distance, I hope you
felt like like a free like I'm sure

461
00:32:54.119 --> 00:33:00.359
you felt freedom in many ways,
but did that also translate into like boring

462
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.519
like sexuality and gender and all that
stuff for you now that you were out

463
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:07.640
of the home. Fully, it
led to me being able to more openly

464
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:09.880
live my life. I didn't have
to put on airs for anyone and pretend

465
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:15.680
anymore. But I was always very
firm in my understanding of who I was

466
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:21.279
as far as my gender and sexuality
and I've done the whole thought exercise because

467
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:22.960
I've thought about like, okay,
could I be a guy, But I

468
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:28.160
feel like most comfortable as a woman's
cisgender woman like, so that matched up

469
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.920
nicely for like nicely for me.
Yeah. I just really threw myself into

470
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:37.319
the writing and filmmaking and just living
my most authentic life. I was very

471
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.680
wild at that time too, so
partying all the time, no supervision,

472
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.240
no adult supervision. That's a party
state for colleges, as my understanding,

473
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.359
Like okay, as a party state. Oh yeah, I'll tell you about

474
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:54.920
one party I had one. I
threw a lot of parties at my police

475
00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:00.079
and we almost broke the balcony of
the because there are so many people shoved

476
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.039
on there drinking and trying like smoke
their cigarettes. The balcony almost collapsed.

477
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:08.480
Yeah, the housing was not happy
with me. It was fine. No

478
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:13.000
one was hurt. That's fine.
I was the college apartment in my senior

479
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.239
year where the cops like knew our
apartment because they had to break up so

480
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:21.480
many parties. So I feel you
on that. It's okay. And so

481
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:28.440
it did you the relationships that you
had had in high school? Did any

482
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.480
of those were any of those like
long distance made it into college or were

483
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:37.719
you or were those not super serious? And you were like new page when

484
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:39.639
I go to college, Like what
was that? Because you're kissing people on

485
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.199
the dance floor, Like what happened
with those situations? Okay? So I

486
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:51.800
will say I have dated one guy
in my life and this was a right

487
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.320
before high school, like right before
high schools ending. So a girl had

488
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.079
broken my heart and I was very
devastated about it at the time, and

489
00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.760
I was like, you know what, this guy is really nice to me,

490
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.000
seems to like me. Maybe I'll
try that. I've never tried that

491
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:05.320
before. It only lasted a month
tops, and I broke with hip up

492
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:09.320
with him right before graduation, so
I really can try. Yeah, but

493
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:13.840
that's a man. Good for you
for being like I'm going to get asked

494
00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.000
this question as a lasaid. I
feel like the number one question that we

495
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:21.400
get asked is like, yo,
but have you ever like really like try?

496
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.360
And now you are like, yes, I really tried. And so

497
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:28.679
there's my response to every guy at
a bar who asked me that for the

498
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.320
rest of my life. Yes,
I dated a man. Okay, So

499
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:36.559
you so you have no strings you
go to college, you're partying, you're

500
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:42.400
almost breaking balconies. Any sort of
serious relationships happening in college or was that

501
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:49.079
not? Were you just having fun? So what I quickly found out about

502
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.639
the film program I had chosen at
my university was that it was majority mail,

503
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:57.239
so I was spending most of my
time around men, and it was

504
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:00.960
worse than the inverse of my high
school. So it was like probably ninety

505
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:07.400
men and the ten percent women there
that was around almost predominantly straight or already

506
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.079
partnered. Okay, ah, that's
such a flip. I feel like with

507
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.480
so many people the other way around, where like they have this experience in

508
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.039
high school and they get to college
and they're like, well and you had

509
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.079
that in high school, and then
all of a sudden you're in like head

510
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:28.159
out, yeah, okay, all
right, well you learned film film skills,

511
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:31.320
I assume, So that's at least
at least that happened. It helped

512
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:36.639
me be very focused on my star. Seriously, I was so distract you.

513
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.559
I guess it was very girl crazy
in high school. If that head

514
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.119
translated into college, I might not
have been ash college. Who knows.

515
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.639
Sure, sure half is to the
best of us. Okay, okay,

516
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:55.960
So so yeah, so what what
happens next? I would actually like to

517
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.119
jump back away. Yeah yeah,
because I want to talk more because this

518
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:04.320
is a who my story about coming
out to my mother. Because I never

519
00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:09.840
went no contact with my mother.
As difficult and as upsetting as she is,

520
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:14.079
I still have so much empathy and
sympathy for her because I know how

521
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:17.360
she grew up with her own abusive
childhood and something I had forgotten to mention.

522
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.519
So her situation was also unique growing
up because her mother was a Filipino

523
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.960
woman and a child bride. So
she was about fourteen fifteen when she married

524
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:31.000
an adult man and was moved from
the Philippines to America. God. Yeah,

525
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.760
so she's coming from her own place
in trauma. And she also has

526
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.639
done a lot, like she put
herself through loss college and law school while

527
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:43.119
also having children that she was raising. Things like that, So I have

528
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:46.280
I understand there's a lot that I
received from my mother, even as far

529
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:52.639
as her positive trades go, and
maybe someone of her negative trades, and

530
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:54.519
I have so much empathy and sympathy. So I've never gone no contact with

531
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:57.679
her. But I want to speak
a little bit more because when I left

532
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.679
home, I was seventeen, and
that same time period, my grandmother,

533
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:07.000
who was the child ride, she
passed away, and a lot of my

534
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:13.599
mother's abusive behavior kind of faded away
after that, like she was a very

535
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.559
different person all of a sudden,
after the funeral and the passing. So

536
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.719
and when I left, I actually
got an apartment in Florida, and she

537
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:25.480
actually before she was so against it, and then she actually signed off on

538
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:29.039
it. She co signed all the
papers and everything to help me get all

539
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.960
my loans and get the place,
the apartment to stay in, and helped

540
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.639
me pay for to move down.
All of a sudden, it was such

541
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:40.840
a one eighty from like what she
had been the previous months. So,

542
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.800
yeah, I go down to Florida. I'm still like kind of processing this

543
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:46.719
kind of new relationship that I might
be able to build with my mother.

544
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:50.960
I'm partying a lot, I'm learning
about film. I'm not really dating.

545
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.360
And I wentn't like that for a
long time. So I went through undergrad

546
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:58.159
and I went to grad school and
I kind of did the speed run.

547
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.199
I was a workaholic at that time, because like I had said before,

548
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.280
I really didn't want to be in
college, but I understood the value of

549
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:09.119
education. So I was doing like
six crazy, like sixteen hour days at

550
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.519
school, taking every class, every
credit I can get to try and graduate

551
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:20.400
as fast as possible. So I
actually finished undergrad two months no, I'm

552
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.599
sorry, one month before my twentieth
birthday. Oh my god, that's really

553
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.679
early to graduate. Wow. I
didn't really want to be. I wanted

554
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:32.719
to start my life. I didn't
really want to be stuck in it.

555
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:38.440
That's amazing. But then but then
the recession hit and I was like,

556
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:40.679
and my mom was like, well, maybe you should go to grad school.

557
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.000
I was like, well, there's
no jobs, everything's bad. It's

558
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.119
like two thousand and eight circle two
thousand and eight around that time, so

559
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:51.679
the recession. So I listened to
her and I went to grad school.

560
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:55.039
And then fast forward, I'm about
like twenty three when I'm finishing grad school,

561
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.039
and this is where I came out
to my mother because I was like,

562
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.199
it's my twenty third birth day,
and I'm like, you know what,

563
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:05.239
I really haven't needed my mom's help
since from the time I left home

564
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.840
at seventeen to now, I haven't
needed any help. I don't need her

565
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:10.159
for anything. This is the one
I always wanted to be my authentic self

566
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:14.760
with her. My birthday present to
myself is I'm going to come out to

567
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:20.760
my mother. Well, okay,
and how what had the relationship been like

568
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:27.000
up until that point? It seems
like it was decent or did it sort

569
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:30.719
of go up and down depending on
you know, any number of things.

570
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.559
It feels like it was. It's
stable enough so that you're like, I'm

571
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:39.840
gonna come out to her. That's
what I'm getting from that is that it

572
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:45.119
didn't prove. And I think that
leaving home really also between her my grandmother

573
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.000
dying, my mother's mother dying,
and me leaving home at that same time,

574
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.760
I think it really hammered home that
these relationships are not permanent. I

575
00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:00.320
can choose to never speak to her
again. So she really did try to

576
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.000
improve her relationship and the way she
handled me and around the negativity and the

577
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.920
emotional abuse. So she tried her
best. She failed a lot, but

578
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.480
she was very much trying. So
it was kind of a one step foward,

579
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:14.559
two steps back. Sometimes sometimes it
feels like, oh, we're great,

580
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.360
great, we can have a real
relationship, and other times it's like

581
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.480
I don't want to talk to you
for a month. Yeah, but I

582
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.960
kept coming back because I know all
about her own pains and her own struggles.

583
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:28.239
So I've kept feeling like she needs
people in her corner, so I

584
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.360
can be that for her, hopefully. So like that was where we were

585
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:35.000
when I'm twenty three, and I'm
like, I never needed her help as

586
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:37.400
an adult. I think it's time. This is my birthday present to myself,

587
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:42.480
and this is where you're gonna discover
that I am a really ridiculous person,

588
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:49.039
because you seem pretty like clear headed
and practical from everything I've heard so

589
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:54.079
far. But go ahead, okay. So I decided this might be the

590
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:58.199
last interaction I'm having with my mother. I'm gonna be ridiculous about it.

591
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:06.440
So I got a speaking mister Rogers
uh card, like a holiday card.

592
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:09.519
Oh I love mister Rogers, like
I love you, You're great, things

593
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.519
like that. I can't remember the
exact phrases. And I wrote this really

594
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:15.679
long, like every inch of the
cards filled with my letter inside of it

595
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:20.920
of like everything I wanted everyone to
tell her about, Like I'm gay.

596
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.280
I never wanted to tell you about
this. I didn't know how you would

597
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:27.400
feel about this. I wish I
could get that letter back. I haven't

598
00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:30.760
seen it since I sent it to
her. So I I'm drunk at my

599
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.880
party. I had finished writing this
letter and me and my friends go to

600
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.320
the mailbox and we're like and they're
all like, don't think, just put

601
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:38.800
it in the mail, and I'm
like, okay, it's off. It's

602
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:45.559
in the post. It's gone.
Okay, So what what happens when she

603
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:47.840
gets to the mister Rogers? I
love having mister Rogers come out for you.

604
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:53.280
That seems like a very beautiful,
gentle, gentle layo. Yeah,

605
00:42:53.320 --> 00:43:00.960
so what what happens? Then we
don't talk about it for he really and

606
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:05.960
I go years going, did she
even get the letter? Oh god,

607
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:09.000
that's so maddening. Yeah, so
you literally don't even know if she received

608
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.519
it, and her behavior towards you
didn't change in any sort of measurable way

609
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:16.239
that you were like, Oh,
she clearly got it, Like she's not

610
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:19.639
talking about it, but I can
tell she got it. Wasn't even like

611
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:24.960
that, It's just like nothing,
Oh, nothing changed. That's really frustrating.

612
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.119
So several years after that, and
I'm in my mid twenties ish now,

613
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.239
and then one of my brothers tells
me, Oh, yeah, I

614
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:37.960
found that card again that you sent
to mom there, mister Rogers one where

615
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.360
you're like you're gay and stuff.
And I was like what and you read

616
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.719
that? He's like, yeah,
Like Mom just left it on the Reddit

617
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.599
and just put it down, left
on the table and it was there for

618
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.199
a long time. Is now just
in her boxes of stuff. I was

619
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:51.920
like, okay, so she definitely
got it and she just never said anything

620
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.440
about it. And then like eventually
I start bringing girlfriends home and she's meeting

621
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.679
them and she's nice and she's fine
with it. Like she's still a difficult

622
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:02.719
person, an argumentative person, but
she just treated it like it wasn't anything,

623
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:07.719
And I'm just like, wow,
this is so discordant. Yeah,

624
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:14.760
that is so wild. So there's
never any discussion and you're bringing home girlfriends

625
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.719
who she knows are Ah, this
would make me. This would make me

626
00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:25.599
so like the fact that it's never
talked about is okay, Okay, keep

627
00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:30.280
going. This is really interesting.
And eventually she like does warm up to

628
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:34.039
it, even like a whole lot, because like as I start getting into

629
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:36.320
more serious relationship, she's like,
oh, that's amazing. We can start

630
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.079
planning a wedding I'm gonna wear one
suit to your wedding. I've never worn

631
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:42.559
a suit before. But then you
like that. I was like, okay,

632
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.480
so she's really embracing it. It
took her a while, but she's

633
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.960
like really embracing it. And then
at some point I'm talking to my sister,

634
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.760
who's like one of my best friends, and I was like, you

635
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.400
know, I'm really surprised. I
thought mom would be homophobic and like have

636
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:58.119
these huge problems about it, and
she's like, oh, girl, she

637
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:01.280
was so homophobic. We have like
eighty million conversations about what is gay?

638
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:05.400
What does this mean? Does this
mean this about Sarah? Is Sarah going

639
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:09.440
to hell? No? Okay,
So she just took me out of the

640
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:15.039
equation and she dealt with the homophobia
on her own and came around to embracing

641
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:19.719
it. I still don't know all
the missing pieces, but I never thought

642
00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:24.679
that that would happen. I think
I kind of love that is that.

643
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:30.760
I don't know that that feels kind
of I don't know if mature is the

644
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:34.840
right word, but like the fact
that she was sort of having a lot

645
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:39.400
of negative reactions and was keeping them
away from you is like, I don't

646
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:45.960
know that feels like kind of a
good call to me. I'm so glad

647
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:52.800
your sister was there to sort of
like run interference and wow, holy shit,

648
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.400
she just I mean, we're always
telling people like do the work,

649
00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:00.559
like she did the work one of
the few times she's never unpacked any of

650
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:06.360
the other things. I guess she
decided like it was worth it to keep

651
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.039
me in her life, because if
she had been homophobic, I probably would

652
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:12.000
have gone no contact. I didn't
tell her that, but I think she

653
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:15.360
realized here too. I mean,
you you literally said just a couple of

654
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:19.760
minutes ago, like you thought this
might be the last time you ever spoke

655
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.840
to her, so you were fully
prepared to do that. I wonder if

656
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.760
some part of her like unconsciously knew
that and was like, Okay, I

657
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:31.159
have to keep all of this away
from Sarah, Like I'm still gonna still

658
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:35.440
gonna have a lot of feelings and
say a lot of not great things,

659
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:38.360
but I'm not gonna I'm gonna make
sure that doesn't bleed over into our relationship

660
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:42.079
or I'm gonna lose her. I
wonder if there was like, this is

661
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:47.960
so interesting, I've never heard this
specific scenario. Did you even after she

662
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.760
like works through it and then is
talking about planning a wedding and wearing a

663
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:57.360
suit. Did you ever talk about
it ever? Or did it just like

664
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.119
wow, that's amazing. We never
have ever spoken about it. She never

665
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.599
the card I sent, She's never
had a question about it. She's just

666
00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:09.840
treated me like all the other siblings
of like, Okay, that's your partner.

667
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:14.400
Okay, great, that's great.
Okay. I kind of like,

668
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:17.159
I kind of love this. I
don't know this is I have very mixed

669
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:22.199
feelings on it, but it's I
feel like it's a better case scenario than

670
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:24.280
a lot of other ways it could
have gone. What are your feelings on

671
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:30.039
that? Does it feel does it
feel like you never sort of does it

672
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:34.480
feel incomplete in any way because you
never talked about it, or or does

673
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:39.639
it feel like like you're where you
want to be? And with regards to

674
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.280
this, certainly not where you want
to be in terms of all the other

675
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:51.480
ways that we have to interact with
our mother. Honestly, honestly, having

676
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:57.159
this like complicated, like fraught history
with my mother and my family, and

677
00:47:55.719 --> 00:48:00.280
there's so many times where she's let
me down. I feel like this was

678
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.800
the one time where she stepped up
to the plate and hit the home run.

679
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:05.840
So like, this is the one
thing where I'm like, I'm so

680
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.159
grateful. We never had to do
the awkward conversation. We never had to

681
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:12.000
have like fights or like this back
and forth where it's like I love you,

682
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:14.119
I don't love you, You're going
to hell, or any of these

683
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:17.920
other things. Yeah, it was
just acceptance. I mean, she's still

684
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:22.760
a difficult person. She still has
some of her emotional abuse traits that I

685
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.360
don't think she's ever gonna let go
of. But in this one arena,

686
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:31.760
I had one hundred percent acceptance and
she never made her intolerance my problem.

687
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.360
Yeah, oh my god, Okay, I really like that. Yeah,

688
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:43.920
and do you want to talk at
all about how you met your partner like

689
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.119
that situation? When did that?
Is that post? Is that post coming

690
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:53.320
out post twenty three? Yes,
I met my partner about two and a

691
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:59.519
half years ago, Okay, during
the pandemic. Yeah, so it was

692
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.760
right after is right after the first
booster, like the first vaccines came out,

693
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:07.639
and everyone was like, oh yeah, yes exactly. It was a

694
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:09.800
hot back summer and I'm like,
I'm hitting the dating scene in a big

695
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.679
way. I'm getting all the apps, I'm hitting up, calling up everyone.

696
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.800
So I dated around a lot and
then eventually I met my partner and

697
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:22.800
it just clicked. And it also
timed out where we were starting to get

698
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:25.119
worried about COVID again, where we
realized like, oh, you can still

699
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:30.440
get very sick even though you're vaccinated. So we kind of like both agreed

700
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.159
we would stop seeing each other and
we kind of just focused on building our

701
00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:37.199
own relationship. And now it's been
two and a half years. We live

702
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.880
together. Now, we're very happy, we're planning our futures together. God,

703
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:45.880
we have the power of attorneys,
like my mother helped us draft that

704
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:51.920
you know, I love. I
love Also that you're on it sounds like

705
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:57.920
you're on the same page regarding COVID, which I and I'm sure you've heard

706
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:01.800
this as well, but I know
birth people who met partners during that same

707
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:06.920
time period and then they were like, uh, oh, these vaccines aren't

708
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.719
doing what we were promised. Well, time to lock down again, and

709
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:14.199
their partners were like, no,
I'm good, and like just so many

710
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:20.320
fraught relationships because of that. So
it's so fortunate that you two met during

711
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.559
that period. But then both have
the same feeling in terms of returning to

712
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.239
being more cautious. Oh that's really
little. I'm so glad to hear that.

713
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:31.239
Yeah, I kind of had both
scenarios when the pandemic started. I

714
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:35.800
was dating someone else and we were
not on the same page around COVID,

715
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:38.440
and we broke up. And then
so I spent a big chunk just like

716
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:44.239
single and like at home avoiding getting
sick while everyone's doing lockdowns and stuff.

717
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:46.559
And then yeah, it worked out
really nicely that just in that summer,

718
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:53.039
that hot vac summerfe Oh god,
that's the dream, the dream. I'm

719
00:50:53.079 --> 00:51:00.000
so happy for you too. That's
awesome. Wow. Before we wrap up,

720
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.400
is there anything else that you want
to speak to that we didn't cover

721
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:07.519
in terms of like any anything at
all. I just want to wrap up

722
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.679
with saying that I really want I've
never shared this story with anyone. I

723
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:14.119
usually jumped to the straight to I
came out to my mom with a holiday

724
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.599
card mister Rogers Day, and just
get the elevator coming out story. I

725
00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:22.039
got it. Yeah, I've never
gone through the whole journey of like,

726
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:23.719
this is what my life was like, and these are all the scenarios surrounding

727
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:28.559
it, but I want to just
share it also on your podcast because I

728
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:32.880
hoping maybe you could help someone,
because it's like, obviously this isn't everyone's

729
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:37.119
story, but like you can kind
of have this closure in this Catharsis with

730
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:40.239
people who you think might not be
accepting. I'm not saying it necessarily will

731
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:45.199
work out for everyone, but sometimes
trying works. Sometimes the most difficult people

732
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:51.159
end up surprising you. I really
first of all, as I've said,

733
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:55.000
I really appreciate you sharing all of
this stuff with a virtual stranger that I'm

734
00:51:55.039 --> 00:52:00.480
so grateful to you, and like, I'm so glad you spoke to all

735
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:05.840
of this. It is so important
you did get such a great outcome with

736
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:13.400
this specific instance, and I love
also acknowledging like I feel like some folks,

737
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:17.480
some of us think that like if
the if the parents are okay with

738
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:21.760
the queer thing, that's like such
a huge win, it's automatically going to

739
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.159
fix the whole relationship. And it's
like, no, that's a that's a

740
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:29.760
big important piece, but that doesn't
mean it's like just because that falls into

741
00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.320
place doesn't mean you're not still going
to have a lot of because that would

742
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.800
assume that. So what we're saying, like hetero people don't have huge parental

743
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:38.840
issues. It's like, no,
we all have parental issues. Most of

744
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:44.400
therapy as a profession is based on
parental issues. So you got this amazing

745
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:49.079
outcome with the queernest, but that
doesn't mean that there are instill a lot

746
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:52.800
of other problems because the problems didn't
stem from your mom didn't even know you

747
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:54.599
were queer when you were having all
these problems in your youth. So like

748
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:59.719
just the reality of that, I
think is really important. Like we don't

749
00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:02.840
want to glosso for the fact that, like you, if you win the

750
00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:07.559
latter and your parents are very cool
with your sexuality, gender, et cetera,

751
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:10.320
that doesn't mean you're not gonna have
other issues with them. Like parents

752
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:14.880
are parents, and I yeah,
I just think that's an important distinction.

753
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.440
But I love that you got I
love that you got that home run.

754
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:24.760
Yeah, there's so much generational trauma
between family, within families. It's like

755
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:29.360
I don't think any family is perfect. That Yeah, I got very lucky

756
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.599
just with this one instance where my
mother did decide she really wanted me to

757
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:36.199
be in her life and she did
the work. It didn't burden me with

758
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.199
that fraught nature of like did so
many other people experience with the whole coming

759
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:45.599
out story and homophobia within the family
and stuff. So she did one thing

760
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:47.320
right, Yeah, at the very
least. Listen, that's a win.

761
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:52.519
I don't take that win. Yeah, all right, So Sarah, where

762
00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:57.320
can folks find you and and your
work? Your novel that's out, I

763
00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:01.880
know you have another one coming out. Any any stuff that people can watch

764
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:09.880
that you've made, especially obviously anything
queer. This audience is ravenous for.

765
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:16.280
So yeah, please plug anything and
everything. Well, my novel is called

766
00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:20.880
The Tree of Life by s.
A. Mossman. It's available on Amazon

767
00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:24.960
for kindle and print right now.
My upcoming novel, and that's more of

768
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.239
a romantic drama, still queer,
a little lot more romance, a lot

769
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:32.079
less action, so maybe people will
be more interested in that. You can

770
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:37.119
find me on Sarah Mossman dot com. I don't currently have anything streaming,

771
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:43.639
but my YouTube channel is under a
Neon sky. Oh my god, great?

772
00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:45.920
Oh oh that also, it's so
great. I can't believe you're a

773
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:53.920
published novelist. Good god, that
is deeply impressive. Okay, so you

774
00:54:53.960 --> 00:55:00.599
can find me not a published novelist, but I do a lot of writing

775
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:05.920
on Twitter. I'm at Lauren Flans
on Twitter, Lauren Underscore Flans on Instagram.

776
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.679
I'm trying to use blue Sky more. I'm Lauren Flans on that as

777
00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:15.239
well. The podcast is at coming
Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram. The

778
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:22.079
hashtag is hashtag coming out Pod.
Shout out to my amazing patrons Carmel,

779
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:28.480
Kaz Simone, Cayenne, Michelle l
Adritanya Poo, Tiya, Kieran Smiley,

780
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:32.159
Aaron Mitchell, Diego Fernandez, and
beyond Clexa dot com. Also, hey,

781
00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:37.320
y'all, do you like clicking stars? I know I do. Well.

782
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:42.000
If you go to iTunes or Spotify, you can click five of them

783
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:46.000
to rate the podcast. What fun. That is a freeway to support the

784
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:51.800
pod. It helps boost us in
the algorithm, et cetera. Sarah,

785
00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:55.760
thank you so much for spending this
time with me. Thank you for sharing

786
00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:01.599
your whole story. I'm so honored. This is inexclusive since it's never heard

787
00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:07.480
before, so that's very exciting.
Yeah, and I'm so glad to know

788
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.679
you a little better after this.
Thank you so much for having me.

789
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:15.119
I love the show. I can't
wait to hear all the episodes because I'm

790
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:20.079
very behind on all the episodes.
Ah it sucks. Thank you, I'm

791
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:24.119
very appreciative. There are a lot, so please take your time. Thank

792
00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:35.039
you all for listening, and I
will see you next Wednesday. Bye.