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the Paranormal UK Radio Network. What's the idea of the life being out?
You were moving a d sorry to pick a fine time for it. Hello,
this is Malcolm Robinson and you're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network,
the UK's biggest paranormal network and this is Paranormal Dimensions with David Jones. All
rights any Welcome to the show. Hello, welcome, I'm great to speak
on your show. Well, it's been three years since we spoke before on
the show, but unbelievably you will find that extraordinary, really unbelievably. Yeah,
years ago, it was just just as the world was going crazy.
If you're a number, it was in Marche he was twenty twenty when we
were all going ever, it was going crazy. But of course recently I
met I was lucky that to meet you in London February, which was great.
You gave a fantastic presentation which blew me away. Um. Obviously you've
had some a couple of new books out, at least a one new book
out since we spoke before, and I think you'll look if I'm looking incorrect,
you're cheating the Ferryman as your latest. Is that correct? Yeah,
And I have to say it's a fantastic book. I'm still reading it.
I must say, Um, you seem to be going down the line the
lines there of a holographic universe very much so. It's it's something I've been
doing now for the last ten years probably, and in fact I'm doing a
big presentation on the concept in California in two weeks time. Yeah. Actually
gets that. It's quite an exciting I believe you were going to go before
before, before the COVID thing. What happened was I was supposed to do
its summer of twenty twenty, then COVID hit so we couldn't do it.
Then then we did an online conference in twenty twenty one, and then twenty
twenty three they've decided they will go ahead and try again. And it's it's
going to be good. I'm going to have platform with Graham Hancock is going
to be choing one of the panels I'm going to be on together with an
associate of Mind, doctor Andrew Gallimore. Who's want the world's leading authorities on
neurology and eurochemistry, and very much My position I'm taking at the moment is
quite precisely that the universe is holographic in nature, and that if you jump
to that conclusion you can explain a considerable amount of the things we perceive in
general terms. And again being me, I don't just make the statements I
do the science you do. I don't think it's profoundly important that the science
it's presented in the best way possible for people to appreciate where you're coming from
with your arguments, you know, to just turn around and say, oh,
it's the holographic universe means nothing to anybody. But if you start to
explain, indeed, it's a very difficult concept to get your head around.
I had troubled with it. I mean I'm still having trouble with it,
to be honest, you know, so if if I'm really honest, But
I am beginning to understand it a little bit now, because I think the
first book on that was Michael Michael Talbot's boot credible book, and it was
Tolbert that really brought to the general public's attention the work of two people,
Carl pribram Um and David Bone, and Ribram and Bone were both working on
similar concepts that everything effectively is digital, and Pribram was working that the brain
worked on digital processes, and Bone was working on the universe worked on digital
processes. And they were introduced by Karl Pribram's son, and they both realized
that they were both coming from totally different directions and making the same conclusions.
So if you look at the work of those two guys, it effectively means
that a a hologram is processing a hologram, makes it even curiouser and stranger.
But for me, I've taken it a good deal further than that,
in that I'm now citing the work of people like Stephen Hawking, and Hawking's
last paper on black holes was quite fascinating. I couldn't understand any I tried
to reach Stephen Hawking's book and I could not. I've got to honestly say
I could not understand it at all. I think it was way you weigh
over more, hid. I think the problem is in many ways, it's
the concepts are so difficult to grasp. Your brain just cannot follow the logic
of it pured and simply because it's it's it's archly mathematical and without an appreciation
of the maths. And I put my hand on my heart. I've tried
to understand the maths, and I've actually got a course on quantum mechanics.
In terms of the calculations, I gave up in the end and I thought,
no, I just need to have to understand the principles. I have
a vague idea of how the mouth's works, but not to the extent that
a quantum physicist would. So the issue really is is what is the true
nature of black holes? And the biggest issue they have And Hawking's major argument
or issue was that if you take if you were standing on the edge of
a black hole and you threw in your mobile phone into the black hole,
your phone will disappear, it will go, it will disappear. But the
problem is that actually contravenes. I think it's the second law of thermodynamics,
because it means that in an enclosed system, which the universe is, data
and information can't be lost. Energy cannot be lost, it can only be
transferred into another form of energy. And Hawking argued, and many of his
associates have argued that everything that it falls into a black hole, it's information
is literally recorded on the edge of the black hole. So all the information
that's in the mobile phone effectively is smeared out over the edge of the black
hole, and that goes for everything it takes in. Now, if this
is then the case, it means that physical objects can be described using holographic
and mathematical principles. So if everything in its basis is digital and everything is
mathematical, it means that what we perceive to be a three dimensional reality is
in fact a two dimensional hologram. Now again I've no idea how they did
this calculation, and every time I do an interview, I mean to go
away and really look into it in greater detail. But I have read and
this is in an academic book, so it's not in a new edge books,
in an academic book. But what they did a calculation, and they
decided how many bits of information would be needed to describe the universe. Okay,
And of course a bit of data is just something that's on and off.
Binary code is just on and off switch. And then what they did
was they did a calculation of and again it's going to be interesting to try
and grasp this. The universe has been expanding for what thirteen point seven billion
years from the point of the Big Bank, so effectively, we are existing
on the inside like a huge inside of a huge balloon that's expanding outwards.
So if you understand that concept, then imagine you're looking at the inside of
the balloon. Now, what they said was the smallest possible area that can
be known to science is something called the plant square, and it's the plank
length times fall. It's like little square, and the plank length is is
literally the tiniest bit of space you can have. Nothing can be smaller than
that. And they said, imagine that the inside of this balloon is checkerboarded
with long squares. And then they said, imagine that each plank square contains
and can hold one bit of information. It's exactly the same figure. The
amount of information needed to describe the universe is exactly the same as the number
of plant squares on the perimeter of the universe. And they argue that this
is too much of a coincidence. So then people like Craig Hogan at the
Perimeter Institute in Canada started looking into this and they started looking for the pixelation
of space. They're actually looking for the pixelation of this reality. Now this
is then extraordinarily interesting because, according to Karl Pribram, the brain works in
holographic principles. Now, what is intriguing, what is really interesting about a
hologram is that if you take a holographic image like a painting, but it's
a hologram. If you had a painting are on glass and you smashed it,
each bit of the image would be a part of the full issue,
like a jigsaw puzzle, so you put the bits together. That doesn't happen
with a hologram. In a hologram, every little bit of the hologram contains
all the information of the picture. So in a holographic image, every little
part of that image contains the whole. So suddenly you have this really weird
recursive universe whereby everything contains everything else. There is no outside because everything is
contained within the hologram. The question is what is generating the hologram? How
is the hologram being generated? And there is an argument to say, and
there's a lot of work being done on this. At the moment, they
think it's to do with something called zero point energy, which is the energy
within the quantum vacuum space, and they think that this generates the energy and
the information needed to generate the hologram. Now, I find this very intriguing
because suddenly it means that what we think is out there isn't what we think
it is. We think there's three dimensional space out there. We think that
you know that there are colors out there. We think there are distances,
distances and everything else, and you look into the distance. But that's not
how it works. It's far more interesting than that. It seems that space
itself is intriguing. You know when people never think about this before, when
they think about the term space, they never think what they mean by the
word space. It literally means that empty space. And as Earnest Mark,
the German physicist, once argued, imagine that the whole universe is just two
planets surrounded by space. What happens to the space if one planet disappears?
Because is space anything? Because space isn't anything. Space is nothing. That's
the whole point of it. So if the one planet disappeared, space would
reduce itself around to around that planet. And if that planet disappeared, the
whole universe would disappear because all that would be would be space, yea.
And of course space is just that these are receptacle by which objects are.
And this is again Isaac Newton's argument, you know, and Newtonian physics and
everything else. So we're coming to now get round these mysteries by saying that
space is not really out there at all, and then everything is a projection
of consciousness and its consciousness itself that's projecting the imagery out from the brain out
there to create the reality we perceive. It's all very very intriguing. I'm
at the very early days of it at the moment. I mean, I've
wrote I've written about it in four books now, and the more I dig
into it, the more it intrigues me. It's one of these things that
it feels instinctively right. But the question is how we pull the signs together
and what it actually signifies and means. And I have to say the times
of driven myself crazy trying to imagine myself going through space, but maybe we
do in the extra treadle, but you know, but imagining myself going through
space and imagine it never ends at all, you know, And if space
does end what is beyond the It's just unfeatherable as to what is what space
is actually that it can go on and on because we know everything ends and
begins. And even more interesting, you know, when the Big Bang took
place, where did all that matter come from? It was supposedly existing in
a point particle at an infinitely small point particle for some apparent reason, just
decided to expand, and in expanding it created more space. I mean,
the thing is with space, space is expanding everywhere. So in other words,
we because we think the universe, it's it's so difficult to explain that
space. Space is everywhere, and space is expanding everywhere. You know,
it's just everywhere expanding getting bigger. But where is this extra space coming from?
But if it's space, it isn't anything in the first place. Um.
And of course the big issue is that what we consider to be solid
matter is ninety nine point nine nine nine is actually it's not a solid object.
Is everything is actually and the objects that are universe within a pencil thing?
Yeah, And effectively, you know that that everything that we think is
real and solid isn't. It's not solid. It's empty space. And the
only thing that gives its solidity and gives it a kind of solidity to us
is something called electrostatic repulsion. And it's quite simple. Electrostatic repulsion. Because
I argue to people they don't believe me, and I say, you never
touch anything. You never ever touch anything. You might think you're sitting down
now and your backsides touching the seat, but it's not because every single molecule,
or every single atom within each molecule of the church, at the end
of the atom, the outer ring of the atom, at the outer shell
of the atom, are electrons whizzing round. Now, electrons are negatively charged
particles, so they're negative the negative electricity. They're negatively charged. But the
same goes for the atoms on your backside. They also at the end of
their atoms in the final shell, and electrons that are negatively charged. So
you remember from school book physics, you take a two negative magnets and try
to put them together. They repulse, and this is what's happening. So
when you think you're actually feeling something, what you're actually feeling is the electrostatic
repulsion. You never touch anything, And then we have the problem even of
sight, you know, we look out the window and we see the world
around us. That site is just extraordinary in that what is happening is that
tiny tiny subatomic particles call photons a bounce literally, they are the carriers of
electromagnetic signal. They're technically bosons, And what they do is they're like a
stream of tiny bullets, only they're not which will come on too late because
it gets more complex in this coming from the sun and the light comes down
and these little bullets bounce off objects. And when they bounce off objects,
they bounce off the object and they come to your eye, and by bouncing
off the object, they carry the information back to information again, they carry
the information of what the object was it hit. The photon then comes into
your eye and then it goes across the aqueous humor in your eye and hits
your retina and trillions of these are hitting your retina at the back of your
eye all the time, the retina. Then people think that line works like
a camera. It doesn't. What happens is all the photons are then converted
into an electric signal, natural signal, which then goes to the darkest part
of your brain, the back of your brain. Here the the the visual
cortex, which then reputs together all the information that's come allowed down the electrical
signal. Now that the image that is on the retina is postage stamp sized
and it's inverted and it's bent, so all that that's the only information the
retina sends to the to the to the the the visual cortex. And yet
you see this surrounding view image that's all around you. It's multicolored, it's
the right way up, it's not bent, and it's because the brain makes
it up. The brain interprets the information and then gives it to whatever consciousness
is in the brain. Because remember, you know, there's not a little
version of you sitting in your head with a mid screen in front of like
the non skills used to be, which what most people think. There's something
far more complex going on than that. Now it gets even weirder because the
photons themselves are not the photons that hit the object. What happens is the
photon as it leaves the object gets interfered with by the molecules, and every
time it hits an air molecule, what happens is the photon hits the molecule
gets taken into the atom, of the molecule, and then another one is
ejected, which is not the same one, And every time it hits and
the atom or another molecule, the same thing happens. So the original photons
are not the same. In fact, as I say to people, when
you look out of a window, the light that's coming through the window that
you think is the light coming from the trees or whatever in the distance,
it's not the same light. It's a different light because what happens when it
hits the window, it gets converted into new photons. And then we have
the mystery of the photons themselves. Because these things that make you see a
point particles now a point particle. It's a very precise term. It's literally,
however much you magnify it, it will only still be a point.
You will never however powerful your microscope could ever be, it would still only
ever be a point. They also technically have no mass, these photons.
But what is even more interesting about them is they can only ever travel at
the speed of light, which means from the point of view of the photon,
there is no time. So the things that make you see are timeless
and have no extension in space. And yet these are the things that make
you see. So from the point of view of a photon. So,
for instance, you look at the Andromeda Galaxy up in the sky. The
photons that are hitting your eye from the Andromeda Galaxy, as far as they
are concerned, if they were sentient, it's all the same moment that the
moment they left the galaxy is the same moment they hit your eye. And
then you start to think, well, these are the things that make us
see, These are the things that make us perceive the things around us.
So there's empty space, which we think is physically out there, made of
objects that are ninety nine empty space, which are then processed by the eye
and then the brain, and then we have the magical thing of But who's
the person looking at the image in the head? Where does that come from?
Where is consciousness coming from? Where do where does you know? Where
does it happen? How? How does electrical impulses in the brain working with
chemicals create create David Young and Anthony Peak all our hopes, our dreams,
our fears. It's like a wonderful magic trick that everybody is so used to
they never think about it. You know, How does the brain is literally
just molecules. It's it's inanimate matter, but somehow, by some magic,
it creates a sentient being that hopes and fears and loves and anticipations out of
nothing. You know, people argument will turn around and say, well,
consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain processes, and by epiphenomena they mean, I
use the analogy. It's similar to wetness of water. You know, you
get you get water. Water is basically two gases, hydrogen and oxygen,
and you get two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen and you put
them together and these two gases suddenly change into a liquid, but suddenly become
a liquid which is wet and it has totally different properties. And that wetness
is an epiphenomenon of the way water works. And they say that consciousness is
the same as that. Well, I'm sorry. Water and wetness are both
things we can understand. I'm sorry, But two or three molecules coming together
and creating David Young, Sorry, that's a totally different ball game. David
Young is not the molecules in his head. He's something far more important than
that, and far more intriguing than that, because as I've argued in the
past, and it's not an original quotation, but it's still a wonderful one.
Consciousness is when atoms come together in a particular figuration to create something that
wonders what atoms are, and that is extraordinarily wonderful. Now, in nineteen
ninety four, a young Australian philosopher called David Chalmers stood up at the University
of Arizona and he pointed this out, the thing I've just been saying,
and he said, there are two things that are that science have a problem
with at the moment. It's to do both to do with the brain.
The first one is the soft problem. It's understanding how the brain works.
It's understanding how the neurons work, how the neurochemicals work. But then you
have the hard problem, how the hell does that create consciousness? And then
we spin off and then people people argue the things I write about, like
near death experiences and something you mentioned before, out of body experiences, skeptics
will turn around and go the hallucinations. Yeah, that explains a lot,
guys. So this is an easy explanation in a label. And you've said
it's an hallucination, but that doesn't explain anything. Life is an hallucination.
By using that same model, this is an hallucination in exactly the same way.
Everything we perceive is in some way either brain created or downloaded by the
brain, or processed by the brain, or the brain itself is literally just
a receiver of that information. And I believe this is worse science has to
go in the twenty first and twenty second centuries. This is worse science has
to go. It has to realize that people when they have extraordinary experiences such
as near death experiences, out of the body experiences, recognition, telepathy,
all these things, they're telling us something. And to dismiss them just because
your science can't explain them, because they don't fit in in your scientific model,
doesn't mean they don't happen. You know, I know I've had two
or three precognitive dreams in my life from precognitive events. I know they were
precognitive. Nobody can tell me that it's the law of large numbers, that
it was a coincidence. I know what happened, and for me, that
needs to be explained. But every single scientist in the world has the same
issue in the same problem I've just mentioned they are sentient beings perceiving something,
but of course they have an excuse for that. They have something they call
eliminative material eliminative materialism, and believe, David, this is what they believe.
We're being fooled into thinking we're conscious. We're not really conscious at all.
We just think we are. How you can fool something that's not conscious.
I have no idea. How can you fool anything if it's not conscious.
You know, you fool something if you fool it, which means it's
thinking about something, and then you're like a magician doing something to make it
think something different. If I'm making sense, yeah, well what you said
there it kind of in my mind. It means that some people may be
seeing things differently to other people are seeing things. Did you see what I'm
getting it totally? What you're what you're focusing in on is something called qualitiam,
and qualitia is the term used by perception scientists. Like the color red,
the color red is a quality. Pain is a qualitier. Pain does
not exist objectively. Pain is only an experience of something. And I've said
to people in the past and again they don't quite get what I mean.
But I'll try and explain why is pain pain unpleasant? What is it about
pain that makes it unpleasant? And people go, well, it just hurts,
but that's not the point. It's just a sensation, but it's unpleasant.
But the word is pain. If there were no sentient creatures and no
life anywhere, pain would disappear. There would be no pain in the universe.
Would that because you only have to have the perceiver of the pain,
just like you only have to have the perceiver of the color red. There
is no color red out there. There's no color green, there's no color
blue. All that happens is is these little photons of a certain wavelength.
When they're vibrating at a certain wavelength, our brain interprets that particular wavelength to
be the color red. And that's why we all perceive the same color,
or we believe we do. Is because we're just reacting to the same vibration
states. But it doesn't mean that red is out there. You know,
the universe is not green, it's not red, it's not blue, it's
not anything. You know. The worldview of a bee is completely different to
our worldview. I mean, there was a very famous essay I think was
it John Sir, I think wrote many years ago. I can't remember the
writer of it, but it was the essay was what it is life to
like to be a bat, and it was to get people to think out
of their worldview. You know, a bat echo navigates by sound. It
doesn't have sights, So the worldview of a bat is completely different to a
human being. But that worldview is no better or worse than our worldview.
It's just different. The same with a bee. A bee SE's in for
red, an ultra virt I think it sas in ultra violet. So a
rose to a bee doesn't look like a rose that we see. So when
we look at a rose and a flower and we think, oh, look
at lot, there's beautiful colors, they're there to attract the insects, they're
not. The insects see different patterns that we don't see. So when those
color, when you know there are certain patterns in a leaf, for an
insect, it looks completely different. Whither how they perceive us? Actually,
insects often wonder human beings see us as something else. Well, there was
sort of research being done recently to say that term bees are sentient. Bees
have a concept of self, which begs certain questions. If that is the
case, you know, they've they've done certain tests where they seem to react
in certain ways as if they have a concept of self. Now this means
as well, you know, we're we're very specist in the way we see
the world. You know that we think where at the top of the tree,
and you know, we're Homo sapiens and therefore were wonderful, But the
level of things we don't know. I'm always use the analogy here of modern
science, and modern science works, and it's great, we're communicating here because
of modern science and because of material reductionism in terms of understanding the world.
But we are rather similar to the medieval schoolmen in the twelfth thirteenth century when
they believed that the world, the world was the center of the universe.
But when they looked at the planets there were problems because if the world was
the center of the universe and all the planets revolved around the Earth and the
Sun revolved around the Earth, there were certain movements of certain planets that didn't
make sense. They went back on themselves as the year progressed, like Jupiter
would go through the sky and suddenly go back on itself. Instead of actually
looking at the obvious answer, which is that the Sun is the center of
the Solar System and we are on planet, they created something they're called epicycles,
which were these incredibly complex mathematical models to explain why the planets went in
what was called retrograde motion. And this was the accepted science for years until
Copernicus came along and Kepler and said, now it doesn't work. Whereas if
you the much simpler model you know of comes raising. The much simpler model
is that you know that we are the third planet out from the Sun,
and then it works. But then they then, you know, then we
get into the nineteenth century and French peasants were saying that stones were falling from
the sky, and what did the scientists say, that's impossible. Stones cannot
support from the sky. There are meteorites. But these people were so up
themselves with their worldview, and they're accurate. They believe their hubris that they
believed that they knew everything little And there was again something I've cited many times
in eighteen ninety four, I think it was a guy called Michaelson or Mitchelson
stood up. He was opening a new extension to the University of Chicago,
I think, and he stood up and he said, Western science has virtually
done everything. Now we've discovered virtually everything, all we need to be doing.
Our scientists from the future will only be calculating to the sixth decimal point,
the finer tunes of the universe. We know it so well. And
what happened was a couple of years before there was a I love this story.
There was a young German students at school and he didn't know what career
he wanted to take, so he went to his tutor, and his tutor
said, well, what do you like doing. He said, well,
I'd loved playing music, so I'd like to be a violinist and I'd like
to play a musician. And he said, but I also love physics.
And the teacher turned around to be said, well, physics, we know
virtually everything about the universe, so maybe he should become a musician. But
this young man said, no, I will become a scientist. And when
he was in his late thirties, he'd become a professor in Berlin, and
he was approached by the German government because the German government had a problem with
their light bulbs. Their light bulbs weren't as good as the British bull light
bulbs and the American light bulbs. They wanted to understand energy more and how
energy worked, and they employed this this scientist and he said, well,
we need to understand how energy flows. And he started looking at energy patterns
and it didn't work. It didn't work mathematically. There was something wrong with
it. And he spent months driving himself crazy trying to understand. Then he
had an inspiration, I'd say it was his Damon suddenly said to him,
look at it totally differently. Energy is not continual. It comes in little
packages, and each package is not like that's next package. It's like a
group of pulses sort of thing. And he called these little packages quanta,
which is Latin for package. And in December nineteen hundred he stood up in
Berlin and made a speech and said, I don't know why, but the
only way I can make the maths work is that energy is not continual.
And that started the quantum revolution. And that young man was Max Plunk.
Okay, so if Max Plunk could not become a musician, may not necessarily
and we may not have even discovered the quantum world. So suddenly, no
more than six years after Michaelson makes his hubristic statement, suddenly somebody's come along
and said, the world doesn't work like you think it does. Newton is
wrong. And then Einstein came along five years later in nineteen o five in
his Great year, where he brought out three papers that completely changed everything,
And it was then that the realization was made. Another point about these photons
that I was talking about earlier. If a photon is observed, it's a
point particle. If it's not observed, it's a wave. And depending upon
whether it is observed or not or measured, is whether it's a point particle
or a wave. Because light shows wave like things. It'll flow like a
wave, but when you examine it, it's made a point particles. Now
that's impossible. A wave is something like a water wave. It's something in
a medium. The water is the medium and the wave is going through the
water. But if that is the case, and while it is a wave,
how does it cross the vacuum of space between the Sun and the Earth.
The space is a vacuum, so how does how do light waves move
from the Sun to the Earth? And the geniuses came up with this idea
of something they call a luminiferous ether. They believe that there was this kind
of ether, substance that you couldn't measure, that was out in space and
the light waves went through the light waves made the ether shake like sound waves.
And funnily enough, the guy that proved the ether didn't exist was Michaelson,
the guy that made the statement in eighteen ninety four. The final thing
is, and I love this is there's a guy called J. J.
Thompson. I think it's J. J. Thompson, and he was the
guy that discovered that the electron was a particle. You know, these electrons
I was saying that on the edge of the the atoms, and he discovered
they were little tiny particles, these negatively charged particles. He got the Nobel
Prize for that. Thirty years later his son got the Nobel Prize for proving
that electrons were waves. So a father and a son both proved that the
same particle was two different things. And this is how science is. So
when people and Brian Cox and everybody else stands up there and go we know
everything. Yeah, you know, sorry thing, we know that very little.
I agree. When you were talking about planets and things, I had
to I had to think to myself, I'm sure as people are going to
be listening to this that believe in the flat earth theory. Now, I
know it's a bit of a detour as to what you've been talking about,
but obviously I don't have you have ever had a conversation with a flat earth
theorist about you know, the word living under a dome? And that is
that I mean? And how much you I mean, I don't believe even
but these people are. But these people are so convinced that this is the
way we are, and they are like I can see why they are the
way they are, because they are like the medieval schoolmen. That they do
is they observe what's around them, and there their observations tell them that what
the Earth is flat. They look at the Earth and they see that it's
flat. You know, so it's for it's from it's empirical and it's from
observation. And there's no problem with that because you know this is how well,
that's why we started believing the Earth was flat, but exactly the same
reason. But then there are things within the observations, the scientific observations that
you can do that the way pendulums move and everything else prove that the Earth
isn't flat. And I find it extraordinary of how these people. I'm fascinated
by the whole thing, by the way I whenever on Facebook and everything I
follow, because the same things come up every time, the same idiot state
make the same idiotic statements like were of the stars, you know, and
somebody will come back to them and say and explain to them painfully and properly
what it is, and they just ignore them and they go off to something
else. And it's because it's as if whatever you say to them, you'll
never convince them, because they believe a belief. It's not anything other than
a belief system. And many of them are fundamentalist religious people, so therefore
there has to be a firmament. And they turn around and they'll say,
oh, everything is everything, cgi everything's faked. We never went to the
moon, you know. But and then they say, but there's there's a
there's there's a big wall down in an Antarctica. Where are their photographs of
the wall around Antarctica? They haven't got any, And they just need to
go on a bloody plane. You can go round the bloody world on a
plane. The cones they're not though, they are convinced that we're not going
around the world as a as a as A as a globe, that we're
going just across it. You know, we have these volume of how and
this is like an example of why some why certain stars are seen in certain
aspects. I agree, certain parts of the world, you know, and
you can just do a diagram and show them that. You know, if
two people are in these locations, if the worth was flat, they'd see
the same stars, but they don't, you know, and you go and
then in the end, as swan famous statement goes, you know, it's
like wrestling with a wrestling with a crap with a pig. You're not going
to win because they like wrestling and they're like crap and there is no thing
you can do to convince them. And they then start insulting you and they
start calling you a globe tard, and you give up and you think,
right, okaya. So just it's just when you were talking about the penetry
systems, it just crossed my mind. I thought, I wonder how people
that do believe in all that because there are I mean, I just find
it unbelievable that there are people still believing that the Earth is fleck, you
know, and I think I think it's a psyops. I think it was
deliberately done to see just how stupid people can be and how they can be
fooled into believing. You know, the thing about birds aren't real. You
heard about this, Oh yeah, birds aren't birds are real. This was
a group of students that were so fed up with the flat earthers they came
they created this spoof thing called birds Aren't Real, and they fell for it.
The same people that believe in the flat earth started believing the birds aren't
real. That's it. That sums it up for me. You know.
You know. The thing is, people far more intelligent than me. People
are more knowledgeable in terms of maths, more knowledgeable in terms of lots of
things, believe the Earth is a seer or an obloid spheroid. I take
into account they are more intelligent than me. These idiots, don't. They
have what's called dunning Krueger. Yeah, Well, they're saying that everyone's laying
to them that we're all being taken in by by the lower I mean,
I believe in a lot of them conspiracy theories actually, but that particular one,
I think he's a bit too far beyond the pelle. You know,
well, don't you feel sometimes that if you wanted to discredit all conspiracy theories,
the best way to discredit them is to put in nonsensical things, yeah,
and have a kind of some people that are involved in conspiracy theories will
believe in the nonsense. Then you can focus in on the nonsense and say
it's all nonsense, yeah, because that's what I believe happens. And this
is why it's there. It's there to say that these people believe such nonsense,
you know, I mean of worse conspiracies happen. You know that they
always have happened. You know. It's naive to believe that our governments are
just looking after us. Oh yeah, you know. But my point of
view is always that my first point port of call is always the cock up
theory of history. The people that rule us have got no more idea of
what they're doing than we have. You know, they're all good, to
be honest, at the end of the day, they are a sort of
Yeah, they just happens to have been put into their position by by mistake
or by them. Sometimes we voted for them, you know, God help
us. But it is very intriguing. So I do not criticize flat earthers.
All I can say. All I can say to them is please just
listen to the people who really know what they're talking about. Yet, research,
do proper research. Don't go to look for evidence. You know.
It's one of the things that I always try not to do. I always
look when I'm doing my analysis, and when I'm doing my research, I
look for the things that counter the things I believe. In other words,
I try to prove via a negative I don't want to just pursue the things
because I believe in them, Because do I believe in a lot of things
I write, I don't know. I never start you know, this is
not how I work. I literally look at the evidence and say, well
what does that suggest, and then I go from there. But I never
start with Like when I wrote my first book, you know, and I
came up with my concept of cheating the Ferryman, I didn't start that thinking
I've got this great idea. Now I'm going to go out and prove it.
It was quite the opposite. I had no idea where I was going
with the book. I just wanted an explanation for dejo Vous. And it
was then that the evidence came coming out from the research papers, and I
was going, you know, if you take that bit there, and you
take that bit and put it together, it's suggestive of something really quite interesting.
And suddenly it was then that I became interested in near death experiences.
Out of the body experiences and all these other things. I knew of them,
but I was never particularly interested in them, you know, very much.
My start, I was very much into UFOs and things. That was
my thing I was interested in. But it was only when I got into
it and I was going, m actually, these experiences actually can reflect science
and can be used, and science can be used to prove them, you
know. So when people claim that they've had extraordinary experiences, I tend to
believe them because people come to me and they'll tell me things, and they'll
tell me things in private that they've never told anybody else, So why would
they do that, you know? And also the people that do come and
told these type of things that they're often very similar are though they're a similar
experience as well. Yeah, they are. And that's the thing, how
similar near death experiences are, how similar out of the body experiences are,
how similar lucid dreaming is for people, the very fact that they're similar,
and they are, they're subtly different in different cultures. But then again,
I would argue that if we are co creating our reality, and that our
reality is influenced by our education and our culture, they will be subtly different.
And I believe that also the universe out there is subtly different depending upon
other people. For instance, I probably you know, if I was fair,
I would say that slat earths probably exist in a flat Earth because they
collectively believe. And I call this the eggregorial, the idea, if you
get enough people together believing something, it seems to come into existence. Their
manufacturing their own existence. Yeah, you know, and there is why certain
people, you know, people who are very religious, you know, their
worldview is very different. And again this is a known sociological effect. It's
called the saber wolf. You know, we're by people collectively believe things and
they seem like, for instance, you know, what was it five thousand
people saw the sun spin in the sky at Fatima in what nineteen seventeen.
They all couldn't be wrong. They all saw something. So what was it?
You know, was it a UFO? You know, can't be That's
the possibility, isn't it. Yeah, there could have been something like that.
I went I for one, But do believe in UFOs. I've seen.
I've seen a couple myself, really, yeah, if I ever told
you. But the first one I saw I was back in the nineteen sixty
seven. Actually, I was actually walking home from my girlfriends at the time,
and it was a big oval orange object going across the sky was pulsating
and it was all different shades of orange. And we were talking about the
colors earlier. You were talking about the colors earlier on. But they were
all different shades of orange. But they weren't like a bright Lowe talk of
thing. It was like an incandescent light, you know, and it's completely
solid. And I was watching it for quite some time. Where was that
was? That was in Essex? No? There was in Essex, Yeah,
I was. I was actually the embezzlement. Actually, um well,
a friend of mine, a friend of mine father was radar operator in the
Second World Warm and he was based in Anglicy, North Wales, and Alan
was telling me that his father told him that they regularly, regularly, like
once every two or three days, would pick up objects flying up the Irish
Sea, traveling at multiple times to speed a sound. They got used to
them. So what were they u there? Clearly was something that was being
picked up. Yeah, yeah, you know, and you think, well,
interesting, And again I'm very much at much of the Jacques Valet's school
of UFOs that they seemed to culturally, they're almost if they're joking with us.
There's a game going on, you know, there's this almost jokiness,
you know, Is that the same? What can we have them believe?
Now? They seem to change the shape of the cross as well of them
yea. And of course the countergument to that is, of course, well
people, the people see what they're expecting to see. But the counter argument
is, well, there could be other objects in the sky that we don't
anticipate being flying objects, and we don't see them as flying objects, so
we don't see them, you know, So there is that counter argument there
as well. In fact, the conference I'm doing in California is the world's
biggest UFO conference. UM and were some of the biggest UFO researchers in the
world will be there. Um, and I it's gonna be interesting to talk
to them because UFOs have always intrigued me. You know, it's something you
know, you do. There's a few people who have been on this show
before. Nick Pope, well no quote will say who knows who I am?
He actually did an intro for the show, all right, because Nick
is Nick's going to be there, so yeah, yeah, yeah, David
Silho, Andrew Collins, who lives just up the road to me. Actually
it's just off the island and it gave you a book that But Andrew is
is fascinating. Actually, I'm sure you'll enjoy meeting him because he's absolutely fascinating.
Um. Obviously you mentioned Graham Handcockey, got Richard Dolan, Nick,
Nick Redfernst been on the show as well. Hugh Newman is another person though
I have got a lot of great respect for is an expert on the or
basically historical um stonehenge, everything like that. But yeah, you'll you'll have
a fensa and you'll be a good company because honestly, a lot of these
people were actually experts in all their fields, and you're going to be really
a good company, and I'm really really looking forward. It's World Deserve that
you are going. I'm pleased you're going actually because I think you're you're a
good company. That's what I can say, thank you. And that's just
in case someone's listening. And what's to go to. That's the Indian Worlds,
California on Junior, second to the fourth. I don't know if all
the tickets are sold yet because I don't know it actually goes on. It's
effectively starts on the Friday, really and on the Monday. There are intensives
which I'll be doing one of the intensives, and Graham Hancock's doing one.
I'm doing one, Lynda Moulton how is doing one, my Andrew Gallamour is
doing one. And the three hours and the funny if I'll be doing three
hours of the holographic Universe. So I'll be taking people right through, yeah,
the things we touched upon, but I'll be doing you know, giving
examples, giving people examples scientific papers if they want to read them as to
why the universe is so strange. Yeah, I can guarantee you'll be getting
a lot of questions afterwards. Oh, I'm sure. I'm just just in
case we've got any US listeners listening on this. It's so India Worlds contacting
the Desert June to second during the fourth You may still be able to get
tickets if you look for Contact of the Desert if you go online. But
apart from that, it's um. I wanted to mention another thing to you.
I mean, I don't know if you've ever followed the work of David
Dyke at all. I don't know what yours are. YEA. The most
recent book I read, if it is, called The Trap, goes very
much along a similar line, similar lines of what you've been talking about the
holographic universe, but he kind of goes on the aspects of that we live
in a three D existence, there's a fourth dimension where we're being controlled by
maybe possibly an alien race, but we actually belong in the fifth dimension.
What do you see? What I get it? Or we've got any ideas
on no theory. I it's not well. And that song shot to say
it's not all David Dyke's theory, I mean obviously goes along with you,
I know, I mean other people's research as well. There was there was
a time when there were there were a group of people I knew who were
knew David, and I think I spoke to him once. I think we
exchange a phone call once. But I really don't do the shapelifting shape shifting
lizards. It doesn't think do it. You know, one one and one
equals two. It doesn't have four thousand, three hundred and twenty four.
You know, And well what you say you mentioned a shape shift. You
know. The thing is of several people on this show that I've actually experienced
people that you know, the shape shifted experience. They've seen things like that.
So I don't know. I mean, it's again the point I will
always make, seeing is believing, and if you have experienced these things,
you know. And the problem is, though, because it's a subjective experience,
it's how you can ever prove that in any way. And it must
be very frightening because if you do see something like that and everybody else is
in denial about it, but you know there are you know again, you
know, I'm going to contradict myself here and say, but you know,
there are people who have mental illnesses. You see things, it doesn't mean
they're really there. But the counter argument is, well, we don't know
what hallucinations are anyway, so we need to be very very careful though when
we say that a hallucination is something that isn't real, well, I'm not
sure about that, because because everything is an hallucination. So coming back to
my a gregorial model, it could be that if you genuinely believe that these
entities are there, you'll see them. And could it be that they use
your expectations of them to come through in one way or another. And again,
you know, there's people I'm working with in American who are building upon
the electrical model and the plasma model of these entities, and again I call
them egrigors. In my book The Hidden Universe, I have sections on this.
So I do not dismiss these things. All I do is that the
evidence that I've got is not suggestive of it. So I don't tend to
engage with that type of world. It's just a personal choice, really,
I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other connections are all the
holographic David David and I have you know, many many people have said,
you know that there's a lot of similarities between what David says and what I
say. The only thing is I tend to stay keep my feet on the
ground and don't jump into conspiracy theories, extreme conspiracy theories, and lord knows
what else because I don't your respect there as I don't. You know,
that's not the evidence that I'm finding. I think it's far more interesting and
far more exciting to pursue what we do actually know about it. You know,
But he may be proved, right, he may, you know,
there's who's to say, yeah, sorry, with a lot of things about
what's happened to doing with this Penny. I think it's improved with a lot
of things. But what's been going on? What about do you actually believe
in ghosts and things like yourself? Or do you think that's some other kind
of a You know, it's an area, it's an area I've written about,
and it's it's an intriguing area. Yes, I believe that people see
these things. It's what they really are and what they tell us about the
true nature of reality. Again, there's a good friend of mine called Paulino,
who is Brian ENO's cousin roxy music, and he lives in America,
and he's been researching these things for many many years, and some of the
things he's told me, the things he's witnessed, are quite extraordinary. But
it seems to me that it's almost like again glimpsing other dimensions of space time.
Maybe they're time slips, who knows, Because for instance, he told
me a story he was researching somewhere in upstate Maine in New England, and
they were surrounded by It was late at night, and they were out in
the countryside, and him and his associates were surrounded by the sound of ox
carts going along the road and cattle mowing and everything. People talking, and
the people were talking to each other in a language that they could not understand,
but they picked up a few of the words and few of the sounds
and the intonation, and they checked it out, and the people were talking
Welsh. And they then did some research and lo and behold discovered that there
had been a Welsh speaking community in that part of Maine in the seventeenth century.
And to him, he said, for him, that was absolute proof
that some kind of time slip was taking place, he said, because we
wouldn't make that up, you know, how would we know that? You
know? So to me, and that the creepiest story was the story,
he said, of the two child though. There was a haunting in the
basement of a house in America, and they went in there and they saw
two children, and the children were holding onto each other, and they were
like flickering on and out like sort of like holographic images, and the children
could see them because the children were looking at them, being frightened. And
then they shimmered and disappeared. And he said it was as if again it
was kind of two realities overlapping, and they could see each other. And
he said, you know, we've got no way of knowing what's really happening
here. But if the nature of reality is holographic, suddenly the whole of
these images and everything, suddenly it becomes far more complex and far more interesting.
I think, you know, in terms of what my argument always is
is that there are two types of writers. There's the writers that just bang
you with anecdotes. You know, they'll say that, you know, anecdotes
after anoking do it, and it's great and it's interesting. But for me,
I want to understand. I want to understand why these things happened.
I want to understand what is the background to near death experiences, you know,
rather than just listing people's near death experiences. What does he mean?
And to me, that's the most important thing. Other writers take different approaches,
and there's no right or wrong approach. I don't. I'm not condemning
it at all. You know, some of their books are really fascinating,
but it's just a different kind of what we're searching for. I think,
yeah, yeah, I think a lot of that is aimed at people who
want their evidence that there is a life after death basically, and that's the
easiest way by hearing of other people's anecdotes and stories and you know, and
I think it's very unfair when they use the quotation they say that the plural
of anecdote is not evidence. Well, it actually is in a course of
law, because if three or four people all say they've seen the same thing
and the same incident and the same person running out of a bank carrying some
money, that that person is going to be found guilty, and then we
have a jury and that's twelve people who decide by agreeing that something has happened.
So it's it's not you know, anecdotes or anecdotes, but they're very
important and I have people who've approached me over the last two decades, and
some of the experiences they've had, as I said before, her extraordinary,
you know. And they're just normal people, and the a, the abnormal
and the unusual is around us all the time. It's just we don't talk
about it because we think people if we talk about if people want us certified.
Yeah, absolutely, that's the danger. Yeah. Well, it's been
absolutely fascinating. So I thank you very much for coming on. And I
really hope you'll enjoy your trip to the US. So I know you will
save troubles. Thank you, David. As I say, get to say,
let's say that's a nick and Andrew for me that I will if I
say, oh, but I'm sure they won't. I'm sure they won't.
You're well known, well know about that. But no, enjoy your trip
and obviously we'll be looking out for photos and things while you're absolutely I'm hoping
to I'll be filming some things and talking to people and linking with people and
updating stuff on on Instagram, out and Instagram and on Facebook. So I'll
keep everybody informed if I'm allowed to do so. That's the thing I'm not
sure well, I mentioned you can do your own private little bits and pieces,
can't you. I'll be looking out for it anyway. I'll put on
things about your books and things on the paran all the Dimensions page as that
would normally do, and they'll be looking out for any photos and that while
you're there. We'll do. And I'd love to say thank you very much
for coming along to my event. Oh it was fantastic. I hope to
come along and see you again. Actually at some point, well we met
up funny and I'll find met up with a few people yesterday in the same
place we met up in London. Yeah, you know, in February January.
I mean when you come back, please, if you go to do
another one, please get in touch and let me know and I'll certainly come
down the Blood. No, definitely, definitely we will do. That's going
to be our location. We're going to try and meet in the future.
Talking to you, David all the best, Thank you, Tony, and
save travels and take enjoy your trip. And Jack. Here there we are.
That was Anthony Peak. Thank you, Anthony, amazing as always.
Okay, the next show is back on schedule and it will be Monday,
the twelfth of June, and that will be Mary rod Will. But between
now and then, if you'd like to get in touch with me at all
my email addresses. David Young took you in at Yoho dot co dot UK.
That's David Young took you in at Yoho dot co dot UK. So
until June the twelfth, but I will be speaking to you again with Mary
rod Will as a guest. I wish you all fair will and take care
of yourselves. Blah blah. One morning I felt this blast of light coming
in the window. I woke up for a split second and fell back to
sleep, And the next thing I know, I was outside of my body,
looking at my body, and there was a light leaving my body and
I just sort of said, I must be Dad. That wasn't what I
bought myself. Paranormal Dimensions is fortnightly on Mondays on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.