Welcome to UFO Think Tank Craigier with your host Alejandro Rohan. Hello, my
friends, Hello, my friend. Hello, that's a Neil Diamond for you.
This is a Lejandro Rojas, your host of UFO Think Tank, and
we have a very special show today. As you know, the big news
out there is this gentleman who works worked for we'll talk about this controversy,
this who is claiming that he had something to do well, that he knows
all about extraterrestrials, that Roswell was real. He saw a box at the
CIA which led him to believe this. He does not give details what was
in the box. However, he does say that what he saw confirmed his
belief that it was an extraterrestrial ship that crashed in Roswell near Roswell in nineteen
forty seven, and that extraterrestrial bodies were recovered. Terribly interesting news. And
I'm sure, as you can imagine, the UFO world is in a bur
er and so is the media world. In fact, mister Lee Spiegel,
who we had on the show a couple of weeks ago, wrote a story
about this that has taken off coast to coast had him on first. But
Lee saw this coast to coast or heard it, wrote a story, and
all of a sudden, you know, the Sun and the Telegraph over in
the UK is writing about Lee Spiegel's story. So is MSNBC and Fox News
and all the big guys out here are covering this story. So they reprinted
Lee Spiegel's story and that's about as far as they've gone. Now. Chase
is the name of the CIA A officer. He is talking about this because
he has written a book about Roswell. He says, it's fiction and it's
kind of about the CIA guy going and finding in this Roswell spacecraft or something
like that. I haven't read the book. Hopefully I can get him on
the show and we can talk about the book, because I'd like to hear
more about the book. And so he had this veddit in other words,
he had the CIA people look at it. And he's selling the book and
he's out there talking about the book, and he throws in this little bit
that you know what, I actually know Roswell was real from when I saw
at the CIA. So you can imagine there's a lot of speculation about why
he said what he said. Was it just to sell books? That's pretty
much the ending conclusion on all of these mainstream media stories that, of course,
the guy's selling a book, so he probably said this just to sell
the book. End of story, and they're moving on. But there are
a lot of other possibilities. Of course, a more conspiratorial idea, which
is kind of out there, I'm gonna admit, is that the CIA sanctioned
mister Change Brandon to say this, and that this is some sort of CIA
plan to fool the public or to slowly revealed information. Who knows. Now.
This point of view is sort of championed by Grant Cameron, who's on
the show today. So we've got Lespiegle, who broke the story. Lee
has since kept in touch with Chase and he actually has had the most communication
with Chase branded out of any media people out there. They actually got to
meet recently. So we're going to talk to Lee Spiegel about his story and
all of his conversations with Chase Brandon to clarify all of those things. We're
going to have Grant Cameron to talk about his perspective because Grant Cameron, as
you all know, we've had him on the show a couple of times,
one of my favorite researchers has done a lot of research into the government and
UFO, so he has a lot of the background to make his case that
this is not an abnormal type of thing if the CIA was involved. He
also with somebody's like Grant I'm sorry, Robbie Graham from the UK, from
Saucer Smurr. They got together and they wrote it an email to the CIA
and about Chase and they responded and said, well, we looked for the
box. We didn't really find anything we can either. Well, they didn't
say that tonight, are confirming, didn't I Essentially they said that, in
other words, Chase his case, So they didn't really disparage case, but
they didn't Chase, but they didn't confirm what he had to say either.
So this is all the background and what's going on here. The other person
we've got on the show is the man who put Roswell on the map,
so to speak, and that is Stanton Friedman. And this is the man
who rediscovered Roswell and essentially made Roswell famous. Of course, one of the
most famous incidents. If you say Roswell to somebody in Japan, they're gonna
know you're talking about aliens crashing in the desert, and that's all because of
the work of Stanton Friedman. So we have these three very special people on
the show. I couldn't think of three better people to have together to talk
about this topic. And so that's what we've got going on on the show.
We actually talked last night, so I'm really excited about it. Accidentally,
it's two Americans, Lee and I and two Canadians. We're talking about
the CIA with Canadians. I was joking that that's because the c in CIA
that used to be a Canadian, the Canadian Intelligence Agency, and they moved
over to America. We stole them in Project paper Clip. That's joke.
That's not true, but I thought it was cute to say it anyway.
So we have a tremendous show and some really interesting stuff coming up in just
a few minutes. Prior to that, I want to do a little bit
of business before moving on to some news, and I just want to say
as far as the Cosmic Exploration Conference, which I've talked about going on here
soon with this extraordinary list of speakers, I mean, we have, you
know, here's the deal, and I want to tell people, you know,
I have been part of a lot of conferences and a lot of people
come up to me, listen to the radio show and say, you know,
Alejandro, you talked about how great this conference was going to be,
but I see a lot of unsubstantiated stuff. None of these speakers really have
much credibility. There's a few, but not many. You know. I
was hoping for a higher standard for this conference. And I tell them,
you know, I understand that, and I like everybody in this field,
that what everybody does. But I do feel there needs to be a space
for the highly credible stuff. And you know, there are scientists we keep
talking about scientists are interested in this field. Well let's give them a space
to talk, you know, Let's give them somewhere where they can be amongst
peers to talk seriously about this topic. And that's what I've done with the
Cosmic Exploration Conference. If you're all wondering, I did not seek this.
I was looking for a good mix of skeptics and people who are convinced that
there is something to the UFO phenomena. When I put this together, it
turned out to my surprise that actually I think we only have maybe two skeptics
on the list, although their topics are extremely interesting and they're open minded,
skeptical people. Otherwise, everybody else, all the other nine speakers on this
list, are convinced that there's really something to this phenomena. We have Albert
Harrison. This is really exciting one of the latest additions because he is on
the board or he's a SETI member. He is a professor emeritus of the
University of California in Santa Barbara, actually, which is important because it's the
Berkeley branch of the University of California that runs SETI, and they have they're
just some of the cutting edge on all of this stuff. So he's in
psychology and the psychology of space and all of that. Ben McGee, who
you've seen on Chasing UFOs, he's going to be there. I became buddies
with him when I got to be on the show. In fact, they're
going to air this Friday, so the next episode of Chasing UFOs you will
see me out on a SkyWatch with him. So we'll see how this goes.
Hopefully it goes well. But he's a really interesting guy. He really
is open minded, even though he's seen as kind of a naysayer, and
at this conference he's going to talk about some of the convincing stuff that he
did see. So he is very open minded to all of this. So
we've got George Knapp, who discovered area fifty one, you know, he
put that on the map. Jeffrey Bennett as an astronomer. John Alexander,
an Army colonel who did an investigation behind UFOs while he was in the Army.
John Peterson, this guy is a founder of a think tank, the
Arlington Institute, who works with defense and all of this. He's also wants
to talk about fairly esoteric sort of topic, you know, the importance of
this discovery of extraterrestrial life and what he feels the impact will be on society
when this happened happens, of which he's in no doubt it will happen.
A couple more media people. We've got Li Spiegel who are going to hear
in a minute. Leslie Keen, who wrote the national best selling book UFOs.
Generals, pilots and government officials go on the record. Another professor of
sociology from Eastern Michigan, and he has a great topic. He wants to
talk about why do people react the way they do to anomalous phenomena. Why
does the public kind of you know, they get weird about it, as
we know they can get irrational. Why do they do this? Ted Peters
who wants to talk about why astrobiology and scientists are afraid of researching UFOs and
also that the true impact of discovery of civilizations out there off planet and that
the impact they'll have on religion. He did a study on this which is
extremely interesting. He's also a professor. And then this is really exciting.
Major General Wilfred Debrower, he's retired with the Belgian Air Force, I mean,
for goodness sakes, at general. He's got his own presentation on the
extensive and incredible investigation. Really, this is one of the most amazing investigations
by a military into a wave of UFO sightings by very credible people. And
these were the triangular UFOs in Belgium in the nineties, so really important stuff.
I put this together because you, my listeners and others were asking for
something like this, and I myself craved for something like this to happen.
Now I need people to register as soon as possible, and I keep telling
you my listeners that I love you, and you're probably like, okay,
buddy, you're allots to talk. Prove it, and so I will prove
it. Here's what I'm going to do till the end of July for the
next couple of weeks, because I really want you to come, and I
hope money isn't an issue. I really am and I'm not kidding. I've
got this thing. It's very low and if you know of other conferences you'll
know that's true. Even though this is at a very fancy place, so
Tropic Cana in Las Vegas. This is going to be a lot of fun
right in the middle of the strip in Las Vegas. But for radio listeners
until the into July, I'm gonna give twenty five percent off. So when
you go to register for the conference, use the code UTT so radio listeners
in order to get twenty five percent off. If you go to the dinner,
then I mean you are practically paying for dinner and getting everything else for
free. But if you go register, use the code UTT simply UTT all
uppercase. Actually I don't know if it's case sensitive, but just to be
sure, put it in all uppercase UTT and you'll get twenty five percent off,
So put that code in there when you are registering for the conference.
So I want to get to some news before we're done. Thank you very
much for that. Also, oh and this weekend, I do want to
mention too, if you're in the California area, if you're in the La
Orange County area, check out Move On LA or Orange County Move On because
they do have a benefit going on for doctor Roger Lear. Some of you
know his work. He alleges he believes that he's able to extract or has
been extracting a few implants from people who believe they've been abducted, and that
he thinks there's really something unusual to these things. Now, he was a
skeptic when he went to do this. When they asked him to do this,
he said, yeah, you know, I'll do it, but just
to get these people on my back off my back and improve that this is
just a rock or something. But when he removed this first implant in nineteen
ninety five, he thought, wow, this is really strange. It has
a membrane that seems to help this thing from being rejected by the body,
and the metals are very peculiar. So since then, he's done this over
a dozen more times, or at least. He's a pediatrist, so he
only can do surgery like on the foot, but he has worked with other
surgeons to remove alleged implants out of other parts of the body. So he
has come across some financial issues, I guess, and you can go to
move On LA or Orange County move On website and find out about a benefit
they're going to hold for him to help him out with these medical bills that
came up recently, and that's going on this weekend, so they're gonna have
one in the LA area one in the Orange County area. They got so
many members out there that they got to break it up, so pretty cool.
And plus they're great guys. My buddy's out there, Steve Murrillo,
Jan Harzan run those groups and they're really great guys. And Ryan are Robert
Wood, you know, one of the old timers there at Moufon and a
great guy. The big news, however, for this week, and the
other big story is is the uk X file. So the UK, as
we've talked about, has periodically been releasing UFO files. The big story from
the files they just released this week is kind of a big report that was
done for Tony Blair on UFOs and should we release this stuff and what's really
going on, And essentially the people at the UFO desk, because the UK
did have an official UFO desk officer, gave some advice and essentially he said,
we don't know what's going on. Many of these things are misidentified,
but we keep an open mind that it's entirely possible that these things could be
of extraterrestral origin. So he didn't really say much except for that we don't
know, We don't approve for sure one way or the other. But it's
still very interesting. There are other debates that you can see there. You
know, one guy in the House of Lords saying, you know, our
planet is so insignificant. They had probably only come here maybe once every thousand
years. So maybe we're more significant than that, maybe not, who knows.
Regardless, that's pretty much just speculation, and so these files are interesting
in that way, at least in that there were people in the military or
at least in the government who was arguing, we're arguing that, you know,
we really should investigate UFOs. There's something here and we shouldn't lend a
blind eye to it. Eventually, Tony Blair did have a lot to do
with the freedom of information requests out there, and according to the Telegraph,
Tony Blair at one point said it was one of his biggest mistakes the Freedom
of Information Act out there, which is unfortunate. You know, he thought,
he thinks, I guess he should have been more dutiful at keeping those
files closed. One other interesting story that came out today is the UFOs being
seen at China's Phoenix Mountain. You may remember Nick's Mountain. There is a
big observatory there. There was a scientist there who really believes in UFOs and
talks about UFOs often. There were some UFO scene in the area, and
supposedly China was supposed to look into those and give a report, of which
they never really did. But there have been some more sightings. There's lots
of pictures of bugs that were placed out here, but you know, those
are obviously bugs. But there were some more interesting reports, such as some
gentlemen who saw a large black object shaped like an eagle. They said hovered
for a while before it zoomed off into the sky. So that sounds more
like a traditional UFO signing or some of the more more sterious types. So
very interesting stuff in the news today. Remember, you can go to ufodailynews
dot com and hit the UFO news feed link at the top to see all
the latest stories. That is the Twitter feed, So you can also join
Twitter to be updated on a regular basis, so that you know when you're
at work, your phone's gonna buzz and you'll be like, oh my gosh,
UFOs and China, I gotta check this out and read the story,
and you'll be the guy. You'll be the hit of the office jumping up.
Hey guys, there's you a boots in China and everybody like, tell
us about it, man, and they'll think, whoa, this guy's cool.
You know everything about UFOs just because you follow my Twitter feed. So
thank you all for joining me again here this week, and thank you for
joining me. And I'm thank you because I'm sharing with you a very special
moment because it was a special moment and it was a lot of fun to
speak with some of my best buddies all at once, some of my heroes
in the UFO field to do this interview yesterday. So let's go ahead and
have a listen. I am extremely excited. I'm always excited to have these
guests on, but threefold because they're all three here to talk about this important
case. So we have Stanton, Grant and Lee on the phone. Hello
guys, Hello, Hello, all right, so we are here to talk
about what is exciting news, at least for us. You know on Chase
Brandon, XCIA employee and his claims. Now, he first talked about this
on Coast to Coast on June twenty third, and then Lee, you wrote
a story on the eighth, the anniversary of the news on Roswell way back
when in nineteen forty seven, and maybe you could give us the basics of
your interview at Chase and what his claims are. Well, when I first
became aware of him, I didn't even know his name prior to about ten
days ago, and I happened to hear the Coast to Coast am interview he
did. He was talking about how while he was still working for the CIA
back in the nineteen nineties, he was in a room at CIA headquarters and
he found a box with a label on it that simply said Roswell. It
was one of many boxes in a room that only a few people had access
to. He unlocked the box, looked inside it, saw some interesting things,
relocked it, put the box back, and said basically, oh my
god, it really happened. And I was listening to some of this interview
and I thought, well, this is a really interesting story. I wonder
why I haven't heard much about this in the mainstream media. So I thought,
well, I'll take a chance and I'll try and track down Chase and
see if he'll talk to me about this. And that's what I did.
I found him just over a week ago, sent him an email. That's
how I contacted him, and he called me back right away. He said
sure, let's talk about it, and from that I wrote the story.
He published it just last Sunday. So I wrote the story to coincide with
July eighth, that being the sixty fifth anniversary not of the crash of Roswell,
but of the anniversary of when that famous headline appeared in the Roswell Daily
Record that said that the Roswell military had captured Applying Saucer. And so for
that story, I included all these quotes from Chase Brandon and then it's like,
you know, the blank hit the fan at that point in the whole
UFO community that's still in an uproar over who is this guy? Can we
believe him? Can we trust him? Did he make it up? He's
got a book out now, a science fiction book about coincidentally about a CIA
man who stumbles onto the secret of Roswell. Well, of course it's just
garbage. Brandon's just trying to just push a book. That's where all the
criticism has been about. The guy's been under amazing pressure since the story came
out. But you know, he kind of brought it on himself. I
think, as well, Now your story went big. It went to MSNBC,
it went to Fox. Everybody all big news is covering a Yeah,
did he get a hold of you? He was a little shy about all
this attention. Huh. Well, you know what, I actually called him
after all the attention started coming out, and I just basically wanted to see
how he was doing. And at first he wasn't really happy because he was
concerned that people were just jumping on him about the claims that he made rather
than trying to give him a chance to focus on his book. And I
said, well, well, you know, you started this chase and now
you have to ride it out. I mean, you're the one who made
these statements. You're dealing with a very sensitive community here that will jump on
almost anybody's statements about anything in the UFO field these days, and so you've
got everybody up in arms talking about this. You had to know this was
going to happen, and now you have to deal with the consequences. And
I don't know how long it's going to last, but as with many things
in the UFO world, it will die out and make way for something else.
I'm already on the trail of a couple of other hot topics, but
we won't talk about that today. Well, I know it should go ahead.
Let's me add one thing in there. Because it was mentioned the sixty
fifth anniversary of the story in the Rosweld paper, the Roswald Daily Record,
I should point out, and this comes up very often that many people think
that's the only place the story appeared. Well, as it happens, it
appeared in evening papers on July eighth from Chicago West, front page stories all
over the place, but not on the East coast because of the timing of
the release. There's a guy who is now a member of Congress from Minnesota.
I did a show in New York and well, it couldn't have been
a big story if it only made to Roswell paper. I had sent those
people a number of articles from other papers, like the Chicago Daily News,
like front page, Los Angeles Herald Examiner, big front page, and the
Sacramento b and one of the San Francisco papers. And it's all over the
place, and it's important only because people want to minimize the importance of this
story. You know, it was just in a tiny Rosweld paper. Well
it wasn't just in a tiny Rosweld paper. And as a matter of fact,
the Los Angeles Herald Examiner had the initial story and the headline was something
like Rosweld captures or Air Force Army Air Force captures UFO in Roswell region and
general thinks it's a radar weather gadget. Those were all in the same page,
front front page, headline, story, big story. So you know
this story hit overseas, it hit other places. And how four hours late
later, right very quick? So yeah, I wanted to ask it must
have been a kind of a shocking to you. I mean, you uncovered
this late in the seventies where you talked to Jesse Marcel and he told you
what he told you. And when you went back and did the research and
found all of these headlines that you're talking about, were you pretty shocked?
Were you like, wow, look at all these headlines? How could this
have been lost to history? Well? I was surprised at that because it
was only after a third story. Tucking to Jesse was the first story.
And then I talked to a man up in Minnesota imidg You State College.
She talked about the Barney Barnett story. Basically, you know, have you
ever heard anything about crash in New Mexico? Yes, tell me more.
So I got names and so forth. And then I shared that with Bill
Moore because I was going to be in Minnesota and he had third story from
Flying Saucer Review in which an English actor said, as he was driving across
the country he heard on the radio about a crass saucer in New Mexico and
Bill could talk to his son who was living in Canada. I eventually talked
to him in England by phone. Anyway he could pin down the date.
Because it wasn't a trip you made very often from LA to Philadelphia. You
can imagine what the roads were like in nineteen forty seven, roughly first week
of July nineteen forty seven. So Bill went to the periodicals department in University
of Minnesota, which had a good collection, and there was a story and
it verified what Jesse had told me. It gave us new names, and
you know, we pitched in after that. We found sixty two people in
the next year and a half. And yeah, the story was all over
the place, but not on the East coast, you know, the New
York Times, Washington Posts, Dinca. They had to cover up story.
The next day, when I went back and checked, I found indeed,
there was a blurb in Frank Edward's book Flying Saucer's Serious Business about half a
page, and Ted Blocher's The nineteen forty seven UFO Wave had a paragraph or
so. They both got it kind of wrong, frankly because they hadn't seen
enough different they caught the cover up story, you know. So it was
just a lot of baloney. But yeah, it was surprising, and I,
you know, I had known when I first talked to Jesse that forty
seven was a big year for UFO, you know, Kenneth Darnold and well
over a thousand sightings in that summer. But yeah, it shocked me.
And but we went at it and kept finding stuff. And that's the thing
that when people tell you, well, you know, justin the Roswell paper
and so forth, that's baloney. But one of the things that's characterized and
public discussion of Roswell has been there's been an awful lot of baloney. I
think we were in a delicate testlinger or something, right, the noisy negatives
we're serving many baloney sandwich. Ye. Unfortunately, that happens a lot in
the media. Now I do want to get too into We'll get to more
on the history of the investigation, but as far as the chase timeline goes
grant, then you and a group of researchers got together and you emailed the
CIA and they actually responded. It sounds like they didn't answer all of your
questions, but one, so, what didn't they answer and what did they
answer? Well, they basically didn't answer anything, which is what I predicted
would happen. I should basically tell you our what happened with us was.
It was kind of weird because I got dragged into it by Robbie Graham and
Chase. Chase is the sort of media expert for the CIA, and our
expert is Robbie Graham, who does Silver Saucers the relationship between UFOs and Hollywood
from Great Britain. He's doing his PhD on the subject, and he works
with doctor Matthew Alford and they were working on this story and they were on
it from the word go. And I heard about this back like in June,
just after June twenty third, when he was on coast to coast and
they came to me and they said, this is a big story and nobody's
covering it. And Robbie put up a story on his website, and still
it really didn't really take off, And it really didn't take off until Lee
did the article. But Lea did the article like sixteen days after he made
the first statement. Until then, it was like Robbie couldn't believe me.
He offered it to make basically every major news outlet in the United States,
and nobody would take the story. It's just sort of died there until Lee
did the story. So my interest was and I was involved in this effort
to send a letter to the CIA too because our obvious question to start was
how did this guy get on Coast to Coast And we took contacted George Knapp
and that, you know, why did you interview him? Why didn't the
George Norri interview him? How did this guy get on there? And of
course our questions to the CI were did you authorize this guy going on the
CIA? And then there's sort of a clarification. People may object with me,
but in both Coast to Coast interviews, he he states that he is
still CIA. Everybody keeps talking about as an ex CIA he is states he's
under he's he retired, but he's on under contract. So as far as
I'm concerned, he's still a CIA guy. And my number one thing was
how does this guy get to go out and talk because I know from my
experience working at the University of Manitoba that you can't just go as a member
of the University of Manatoba and go out and talk to the media. We
got in big trouble for doing it. So how does this guy get to
sort of go on a major radio talk show as a CIA guy and drop
this bombshell? And so our reaction was always what is the CI, saying
like, did the CI authorize him to go on Coast to Coast? Did
the author rise him to talk to Lee? Did the CI talk to him
between the time did he talked to Coast to Coast when we talked to Lee?
Did they talk to him, you know, before he went on the
second time with Coast to Coast. My reaction, I don't think this has
really been resolved is what was the involvement of the CIA. So there was
a doctor Alford, Robbie Graham, Victor Viggiani and myself and I said,
maybe the problem is here, we don't have any Americans signing this this letter
to the CIA. We had offered some Americans nobody would would come on the
letter with us. But so here's two Britons and two Canadian guys writing this
letter to the CIA. And we just basically demanded these answers, like how
did this guy get on the show? Did you authorize this? You know?
And all these sort of questions, is this is this real? Is
this guy for real? And all these kinds of questions. And the response
that we got back was very encouraging. It said, we will look into
this and we will let you know. And this was Robbie Graham wrote drafted
the letter. So they wrote back to Robbie Graham copy of the rest of
us. And so we were were kind of excited that they were actually going
to talk to Chase. They were going to ask them about this. And
that was where I think the story for us sort of died, was we
never got an answer to what are they going to do? They got this
story that they're being questioned and Billy Cox was questioning them. And I assume
that Lee probably wrote the CIA letter. Everybody's writing them letters about this guy
making these statements. And my concern was what would they do. They would
pull the coast to coast, they would hear what he said on coast to
coast and they would phone the guy and they would say, what did you
say? Why did you say this? Did you got no authorization to say
this? Where are the files? We want to find the files. Where
are the files? And so when it came to the end of our short
story was the CI just came back and said we could we heard the story.
We can't find any documents and that's it. And Billy Cox actually talked
to the archivist and tried to get the archivest to elaborate on this, and
the archivist just simply said, I'm not going to say anything more than what's
in the CIA statement, and they just sort of died. And my basic
impression, after my whole involvement, was this is what they've been doing for
the last fifty or sixty years, putting this stuff out and then pulling it
back and going back to their position. We're not involved, we don't know
what's going on, and the story gets out there and they go on with
their merry business. In the UFO community, we all get into fights and
sort of rehash it, and it just goes on to the next story.
Well, there is another part of this. They did someplace along the way.
The CIA referred to that lousy Haynes story, the historical story. Remember
that I saw a reference to that somewhere and that was a terrible story,
lies and more lies and all that sort of thing. And they wouldn't.
I tried to write him, and I've got no answer. Yeah, the
CIA loves to play games because he can get away with it. Nobody's telling
them, Hey, you guys got to answer these questions. Yeah, And
there's an important part that when Chase talks. In both these interviews, he
talks about this. He says that basically, the CIA has all this oversight.
We can't do anything. We've got our arms tied behind our backs,
and we answer to the people at sixty thousand feet. And he keeps talking
about this. We work for the people at sixty thousand feet, the President,
the Executive Branch, the congressional intelligence committees, all these people think that
they really don't do anything except work for these people. And so to me,
that's the important part is the CIA doesn't go out and start making cars.
They don't. They you know, they have to do what they're told
to do. They're working for these agencies, and therefore running around and playing
with UFO researchers must be something that they're being told to do. I can't
see that they would just nothing to do that day. If that's happening,
though, I mean, we'll get there, we'll get there. But let's
talk about some more things. If that's happening, and we know that certainly
Chase is I wouldn't say he's sent some information out. Is he playing with
you UFO people. He came back on coast to coast on the twelfth and
I know, Lee, you've had, out of everyone, the most conversation
with Chase you met with them. I sat with him for over an hour
yesterday in New York City. You guys are good buddies now. So either
you've gone to the dark side and you're helping him play with the UFO people
or what I mean, what are your impressions having talked to him that do
you see this as the CIA playing with UFO people again? Well, you
know this whole thing about what the CIA responded with about how you know,
we checked somebody to look for the box who couldn't find anything, you know,
thanks for thanks for inquiring. You know, they can only go one
way or the other, and they chose, I guess the higher road,
because the only other thing that they could have said was yes, we found
the box that said roswell on it. Yes there's lots of great evidence in
there. Yes there are photos. Well, of course they're not going to
say that. So they could only go one way or the other. They
either say yes, we admit it or no, we can't find it.
What else could they have done. They couldn't respond in any other way besides
those two ways. And they know that and there's something clever or secretive about
that. I think that Chase was walking a very fine line when he said
to me, when he said, look here, I saw some things in
the box. I saw some materials. There were photographs, and it validated
to me everything that I believed about what happened. It was no damn weather
balloon. It was the spaceship from somewhere else, and there were cadavers.
And it's all I'm ever going to say about it. And even yesterday when
I was sitting with him in New York, I said, listen, I
hope none of this is going to affect your pension from the CIA. He
said, no, no, it's not a problem. Fine, I'm pushing
my book now and it's all I really want to talk about. And I
said, but Chase, your book is about a guy who's with the CIA
who uncovers the Roswell secret. So so you're talking about it either way.
Yeah. Well, and to your point earlier, he had to have known.
He had to have known it would get back to the CIA that he's
telling people he saw a box with this Roswell stuff in it that indicates to
him there are extra threstrills a craft that crashed with bodies retrieved. So he
had to have known. Is he playing a bit naive if he's kind of
playing dumb like, oh, I didn't know this would be such a big
deal. He had to have known it would be a big deal, not
just to the media, but also to people at the CIA. I mean,
even if this is innocent that they don't know anything. At the CIA,
he had to have known it would be a big headache for them if
he went out and said this, let alone, what other possibilities there?
Meaning there's another aspect of this that I'm becoming a I also just did stories
about the very recent release by the British government by the Ministry of Defense of
a new batch of UFO files. And the man who's been totally behind that
and involved with that is a doctor David Clark in Great Britain. And he
was telling me the other day that at least in the British government, behind
the scenes in places like the archives, the National Archives, and he suspects
it might be like that in America. There are a lot of incompetent people
there who don't know where things are. Things are not properly categorized or saved
or compartmentalized, and especially when you have people who they work on a job
for a certain amount of time and they leaven someone else comes in and takes
their place. They don't know where this stuff is. They don't even really
know how to help you find stuff. Even I found a little of that
at the National Archives. And stand, I know you've spent a lot of
time at the archives in Washington. Do you find the same thing there?
Well, yeah, I've been to twenty archives. And let me give you
a specific example. One of the archives of the Eyes in our library was
telling me that a journalist comes in and says, can you put Majestic twelve
in your computer and so we can see what all you've got? No,
I cannot Why not? Well, our stuff isn't computerized. Well how am
I going to find out anything? Well, you tell us. We'll give
you a list of the files of the subjects. You tell us which boxes
you want, we'll bring you the boxes. There's a limit of twelve,
and you go through those and if they're withdrawal sheets, so we can see
about trying to get you that material. Maybe it takes a year or two.
But the reporter was totally Gotsmack to use the English expression because he thought
everything was computerized and easy to get and it isn't. And I had a
guy email me. He'd liked my research and wanted to know if I could
say a few things about how important the Internet was to my research. And
I said, well, you know, it's easy. It's nice not to
have to go over to the university a mile and a half away to find
out who won the Nobel Prize in physics in nineteen fifty eight. But you
know, I can do it from my desk. But aside from things like
that, it had very little role. Well what do you mean, I
said, Look, I've found out some very important stuff about Donald Menzel at
Harvard. There's no way to find out that stuff until I went there,
and I took permission from three different people to get to see that stuff,
and it took weeks to get copies of things. The Internet didn't have a
role in that. So there's this crazy notion that everything is all out there
and it's all computerized and you push a few buttons and you'll have everything you
want to know. And you know, it just isn't like that at all.
It's moving slowly that way. But there's a huge of the entire library,
fifty thousand pages of a National Security Council material. Overall, I got
maybe fifteen or twenty million pages of information. So you want to do research,
you could go there. And so it is interesting the CIA didn't even
exist as such at the time of Oswell. And you know, I'm sure
that the need to know concept is very important there. So that was an
absolutely true statement. They don't know where things are, and it's not there's
no master guide, in other words, to where you find things. One
example, I'm looking at the Vanavar Bush papers and there's lots of them,
and I saw, oh, there's a listing correspondence with Donald Menzel. Well,
it was a very important piece of mail that I've found, but I
wouldn't didn't expect to find that when I went there, had no idea there
was anything there. So, and I want to ask you and grant this,
because he's also spent a lot of times in archives. Then that part
of this story of him stumbling across this box that has Roswell written on it,
how does that sit for you? Does that rid true as a possibility?
Yes for me, it does. Anyway, remember this wasn't a regular
archives. What was the fancy name of that facility. It's I've got the
website up, which is interesting because it seems like it is a library mostly
of books. It's called the Historical Intelligence Collection. It's housed at the CIA
Library. Although I did find a quote here, you could go on their
website and find out a lot about all of this stuff. But it does
say that they also have on display some artifacts, like different artifacts that have
been interest to intelligence in the past. Well, what I'm saying is most
archives now have boxes and boxes archival boxes about CENTRISTEEP special paper, that's the
non polluting and stuff, and they're just tons of these, like in the
Raiders of the Lost Archive? Is that what it was? You know?
And the way, well at the National Archives, the way they measure how
much material they have, like Record Group three forty one ninety one hundred and
thirteen feet of material that's feet of shelf space. This is the airport's intelligence
files from the early fifties. Now nobody's read all that stuff. Nobody knows
what all is in there. You got to go there, you know,
can you imagine trying that's about one thousand and four drawer of five right one
file. So you know, people act as if there are some super smart
people who push buttons and make entries and you know, outcomes everything you want
to know from the machine. Nobody knows what all is there, which is
because a lot of people think that they can just browse on the internet and
find everything about the CIA and Roswell and Alien just from browsing on the internet.
But you can't. That's what's great about you. And that's also what's
great about Grant Cameron, is you know, doing the hard work going to
these places. What about you, Grant, You've spent a lot of time
going through archives, looking at files. How does that part of the story
sit for you? Well? I was a little more suspicious because my experience
in I've been to a lot of archives is that they're I mean, maybe
I don't know where a lot of stuff is, but they're very professional and
they're very sort of anal It's like, you know, put one file out
at a time. In the box has to be the left. You can't
run of you, and so they can't so they can see what you're doing,
and you can't use pens and you have to you know, there's like
a million rules. It's like being in grade one. And and my problem
with it was the handwritten thing. Now maybe it had just come into the
archives. Possibly. I had a problem with the handwritten thing because most of
these guys are fairly well paid and everything is you know, the proper labels
and and all this kind of stuff unless it hasn't been processed yet, which
is a different story. The other problem I had with the with the box
was where everything is sort of together, that if it's uh, you know,
if it's compartimentalized stuff, that you're gonna have the documents and the photos
and and all the material that you could possibly need in the one box where
you could all sort of put it together, rather than well, I think
it was a miscellaneous box, you know, the leftovers from the extensive files.
But I don't know so that I had very extensive files on Roswell,
you know. But he's he's that's where he's starting to go. Now he's
in his last interview. Now he's saying it's like, you know, somebody
cleaned out their desk and they just threw all this stuff in there, and
that's sort of what it was. And that goes back to the to the
Corso thing was the filing cabinet that you know in the with the paper clip
that somebody threw all the rosweld material in there and left it sit there for
twenty years. And to me, that's not how they do it either.
I think they're a little more professional than just throwing stuff into a box.
And then when he brought off the the one that really sort of threw me
off was when he referred to the little o'layed with blue hair and the tennis
sneakers as running the place. And I'm thinking, there are no people's the
National Archives and at the Langley little old ladies with blue hair and tennis shoes
who are running this, you know, top secret archives where they're keeping this
type of material. Some of a lot of the stuff just didn't ring true
to me. And what I thought he was just simply doing was he had
as access to classified material. But he has a quote in his second in
his second interview, he says, and he quotes from Bacon, Francis Bacon.
He says it's the key quote that deals with the book. He says,
truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it
plausible and That's why I think he just did he had access to classified material.
He can't tell you where the classified material is, where he saw the
material, So you create a fictional story that he founded in a box and
some archives. And then that's so he's saying the box is not classified.
When he's talking about the box. He said it is not classified the box
talking about the box, and that's because as far as I'm serting, the
box doesn't exist, he saw the material somewhere else. And when you get
to the specifics of I'm not going to talk what I saw in the box
because if he identifies a specific photo or a specific document that is classified,
that's why he won't talk about what's in the box, but he will talk
about the box. Because he's the fiction guy. He works, you know,
undercover, he's the media guy. He's the guy, you know,
the silver tongue devil that can you know, sort of charm a flyoff a
pile of Dodo. He's the guy, and he just makes up these sort
of stories that weave this thing in there, and he's sort of telling the
truth about what's going on, and he's just using this fictional thing the same
as his book. He says his book went through the review three times.
They wanted this taken out, they wanted this taken out, they wanted this
add it. And he's doing the same thing. He's creating a fictional story
to tell his story of coming in contact with the Roswell material. I'm just
skeptical it wasn't in a box. It was someplace else that he saw it.
And he's using the box as a fictional type story to explain where he
got the classified material because he can't tell you it was in box whatever whatever
and whatever archives it actually wasn't. That's a classify He can't talk about that.
So he makes up the story about the box. It's not classified and
he can talk about it. Yeah. Well, the guy, he was
in the agency for so long that he certainly would be familiar with techniques for
misrepresentation, for covering things up for you know, he's got a long history
of that. And remember he's been dealing with the movie guys for quite some
time now as far as I can tell from right, And there's definitely Masters
of Deception. Anybody who has worked on one of these UFO documentaries knows that.
But Lee, what were you going to say, Lee, well,
I was going to say that I haven't heard a lot of people write about
or comments about this, and that is that Chase basically said that to CIA.
Yeah, it's a CIA calling. Chase said that he saw stuff in
the box that validated to him everything he had believed and what he knew other
people had talked about that actually happened at Roswelt. Nowhere did he say,
although he didn't seen him right, that someone at CIA told him this stuff
was real. Nobody came up to him and said, you know, we'd
like to tell you about some things that happened at Roswell. You have a
high enough clearance of security clearance that we can tell you that I haven't seen
anything like that. It says if he's trying to use a little bit of
misdirection and get people to think that it's all true even though he's not saying
anybody at the agency confirmed this information. Well, my question too, is
that it could he be misinterpreting this stuff. The CIA definitely collects stories from
the media. I'm sure they have Danton's books, you know, some Grant's
work, your stories, So could it be that these were stories from the
media or books and material that wasn't generated from the CIA or possibly not to
the government at all in this collection, because that's what this collection seems to
be collecting, and he just misinterpreted or felt, oh, hey, Stanton's
book was in this box and I read it, and now I believe in
Roswell. Well, you know, it's an interesting thought because we don't have
a specific year when it was late nineties, mid nineties. He said that
it was in the mid nineties when he was in that room. Yes,
yes, okay. The first book came out in nineteen eighty, the berlitz
More Book. Several books since then, so you know, that's an interesting
possibility. And also, you know, you find all kinds of inconsistencies when
you're dealing with archives and agencies. People think everything is straightforward, inaccurate and
earthing is checked, and it isn't like that at all. And it's very
frustrating when you try to get answers to questions because often the answer is I
don't know. And I've got to know one of the archivists at the National
Archives pretty well, and you know, they have a difficult job because nobody
quite knows what's going on. Like they kept the Cutler Twining Memo in a
separate box at the National Archive. So because so many people were asking to
see it, it was separated from where it had been in the first place,
and it was found in a place where it shouldn't have been. So,
you know, who knows, somebody's really being very careful overseeing everything that's
going on. Also, I have had several other stories I'm sure Grant has
too, of people who had clearances and who were in an archive for some
other reason and wandered around a little bit and found stuff that they probably shouldn't
have seen, but because they had the clearance to be in there in the
first place. In other words, nobody's really yes, when you sit at
the table at the eyes of our library, that eagle eyed gallop on the
desk is watching you. And I've had her come back and say only one
polder at a time. Yeah, I mean that happens. But what I'm
saying is people who have clearances get into places and nobody's looking over their shoulder
all the time. The question was that they have the clearance to be in
there, you know. And so at the National Archives, the guy I
knew took me down into the archives where you have to be escorted, because
he didn't want to keep running up down the stairs. We were trying to
find where certain stuff was. We had a long list of documents, but
we didn't know which was in which box, which made it terribly proSP That's
a perfect example, you know, I got a listing here, and day
I want to see this. We I don't know what box ha'ds in.
So perfection is not what happens in archives, to say the least. I
can I add a little quick story to that, Alejandro, Yeah, go
for it. Several decades ago, when I was a writer for the old
Omni magazine, I went to Washington for the National Archives. I was looking
up a few things just in their microfilm database, and I found in microfilm
a reference to a series of UFO sightings from nineteen sixty five over Edwards's Air
Force Base, and I thought that was interesting, and I pulled up some
more information about it, and there were some descriptions of things that had been
seen by several Air Force personnel on the day or on the night in question.
And I noticed at the very bottom of the description it said supplement materials.
You know, please ask at desk or something like that, and so
I went through the desk and I said, what are these supplementary materials?
And they looked it up and they said there are audio tapes. And I
said, really, is there any way of getting those audio tapes? And
they said, well, hold on, and a few minutes later somebody came
to where I was sitting in a room. They brought in a box and
in this box were about ten or eleven reel to reel audio tapes and they
said, here's all the stuff you asked for. And I said, well,
do you have a machine that I can listen to these? And they
did, and they brought me to an audio room and I put some of
these tapes on and I was blown away because I was listening to real,
authentic recordings from so many different people at Edward's Air Force Base. Rateur control
operator tower personnel, people on the ground, people in jets that have been
scrambled. Went on for hours and hours and hours of this amazing display of
UFOs over Edward's Air Force Base. And I said to the archives, can
can I take these tapes? And they said, well, no, of
course you can't, but if you if you'd like to bring your own tape
recorder in we can let you have dubs of this stuff. And I said,
okay, that's great. Have other people asked about these recordings? They
said, no, you're the first. You're the first person who's ever inquired
about them. Because people just didn't know about them and didn't care. We
didn't have them hidden anywhere. So I went I went back to New York,
got my tape recorder, my cassette recorder with cables, went back to
the Washington Archives and I sat there for hours and I dubbed the material and
I turned it into an omnipiece. And the stuff is incredible to listen to,
and no one else had it right, and it wasn't it wasn't hidden
anywhere. I just had to go there. Like stances, sometimes you've got
to go there and look at the stuff and look for it to find it.
Well, yeah, I mean looking at you know, some of the
because Grant will keep me up to speed away he's researching. I've read Santon's
books, and when you read those you get this idea that there are so
many files that even today there could be there's definitely hidden treasures out there in
files arts that are still yet to be found. Yeah, so let me
call the problem. The problem is the cost. Incidentally, it takes money
to go to the archives, to spend time there, to eat and sleep
and you know, do all those things and to dupid as he said,
if somebody would finance all this stuff, I would have been happy to spend
full time doing it, right. Can I add one little quick story?
I stant was talking about what's inside these archives? I was approaching when I
was at Eureka Springs lecturingers by one of the people who worked in the vault
at the National Archives, and his wife had been interested in the whole MG
twelve document thing, and she was showing it to him. He had no
interest with sever and he suddenly got interested. He said, well, I'm
gonna see if this m J twelve thing is for real. And he told
me and this would be interest that and I don't know, maybe A told
Stanton before. Uh. He told me. He says, you know,
I think that that Cutler twenty memo was for real. And I said,
well, why do you think that? And he said, well, me
and me and a couple of the other guys went there one time on our
break and we looked at it and I can tell by the way they're they're
keeping control of it that they think it's for real. If they didn't think
it was for real, they wouldn't And he mentioned that, you know,
it was in plastic and they were doing all this type of stuff and how
they stored it and stuff, and he said, this is this was significant
to him, that that there maybe there was something to this when he saw
how they were storing the document. He's a guy that that that actually is
the guy that these these classifications and withdraws documents. And so he went to
his teams. They work in teams of four, and he was with various
teams and he would tell them, I'm looking for MG twelve documents. If
you see anything with MG twelve, I want to know. And he said
to me, he said, if it's justifiably classified, I'll you know,
stamp it classified and it won't come out. But if there's no reason to
declassify or to withhold it, I'm going to release the documents. So he
had his all his buddies and they were all looking for the m J twelve
documents. They were to notify him if they saw something with MJ twelve and
one of the archives and he mentioned the guy's first name was the Spanish name,
and he said, this guy recalled years ago that yes, he did
see stuff with MJ twelve when he was doing SUS stuff. He was firing
joint system material and he'd seen the twelve stuff on documents. So here's the
type of stuff where you get approached by somebody inside the vault. And I
actually went and I talked to him, and Ryan would talk to him extensively.
And this guy is inside the National Archives and he's declassifying, you know,
and he does what he does, Like one day he's doing nineteen fifty
army stuff. The next day, whatever they tell him to do, he's
doing. Yeah, but he says he's got his eyes open and if m
J twelve stuff comes up and there's no reason to withhold it, it's coming
out. Hadn't seen it yet, though. Huh. Okay, let me
go around and let's start with Grant. I want to ask this question from
everybody, and I think I have an idea from what you've said so far
what your answers would be. And we'll get more into the other possibilities,
but we'll start with Grant. So, do you believe Chase's statements were live
statements he just made solely to publicize his book, which is the kind of
the overall feeling that most of the media is kind of putting out there.
Well, that's part of it. He's promoting his book. But as he
said, his book went through this review two or three times, and he
said it they gave him a hard time and they wanted stuff taken out.
The whole point is the CI says had been involved in nineteen fifty three,
that don't have any interest. Why are they pulling stuff out of this book,
which is definitely a book on UFOs. And he talks about the second
book. He's got another book coming out in sixteen to eighteen months once this
is done. It's on UFOs too, And he said that one really good.
I thought. He said, the second one is not on UFOs.
No, he said, it's a fiction book. It's not a science fiction
book. It's a fiction book, but it also deals with UFOs. He
talks about in the same an interview, and he said that one really got
hammered by the reviewers. And to me, that's the whole thing is,
why are the reviewers if they don't know anything about UFOs aren't interested in UFOs.
Why are they pulling this stuff? And why is Chase fighting? He
said, I was fighting to get this stuff back in there, and so
he's not fighting about He's a guy that plays by the rules. He knows
what the rules are, sources and methods. He's not going to fight about
sources and methods. He's fighting about different parts of the UFO story. But
did he say that explicitly that it was UFO stuff they were taking out that
I wanted back in. Well, he said they were taking stuff out,
so we don't know necessarily, could be the First World War trench warfare stuff.
I kind of doubt whether it's, you know, the First World War
stuff, And then he makes someone needs to ask that question. Just well,
that's what I think has to happen. Is I know I was going
to ask Lee. My question to Chase would be, did you talk to
CI? Did the CI talk to you? I don't care what Chase said.
I it's irrelevant. I want to know what is the CIA's role in
the whole thing, and that has not been established. What Chase says could
all be just him publicizing a book, or or he's interested. He's like
a guy inside there, and you're a you're a good old boy, and
you've got some of the story and you're interested in UFO, so we'll let
you write your book. It's like it's it's almost like an agent who wants
to tell the story that he was a James Bond spy and he wants to
tell his grandkids and that he was he saved the world, and they let
him write a book. They fictionalized the book, and he tells the truth.
So that's what Chase is telling the truth in this book, and it's
all fictionalized. I want to know what was the CI's role, and that
has not really been established by anybody interviewing, and we have I know Jerry
Pippen has tried to contact him. He will not talk to Jerry Pippen.
H matt doctor Matthew Alford has contacted him again. He talked to him once.
He will not talk, he will not respond to his letters. Those
other people are gonna ask the questions, and it has not been established.
So I don't think we can really say it. But I think the CIA,
my guess is a CI has some role. They're not sitting on the
sidelines watching this guy just sort of. You know, I'll take the story
viral on the internet. Stanton, what do you think do you think that
is well? I think that there's a lot of truth in the story.
It wouldn't surprise me if there was some fiction as well. And agents.
I mean, what if he got thirty some years with the CIA. You
expect there to be cover story mentality all the time. You know, you
leave out things, you dress it up a little bit. I was in
touch with Robbie Graham. He wrote me a couple of years back. So
when I checked with him, in found that Chase was on their screen.
You know, for years as a guy who did what he said he did.
He worked with the movies in Hollywood and so forth as an advisor.
So I don't think it's one hundred percent true. I think partly to protect
himself, but I think he wasn't thinking too wisely, because I think he
did cross a line. I worked under curity for fourteen years, and you
get to be very cautious about that. Now Here he was in a situation
where he wasn't dealing with other people with clearances. I think he got a
little careless, a little carried away, and so the fact that it seems
to fit in with his book is you know, neat for him. But
I think mcniy sounds like he's too sharp. Yeah, that's the thing.
He does, seem like very savvy. And I guess because you are a
Roswell expert, the Roswell expert, at least the details of what he's saying
in extraterrestrial craft crashing with bodies fund I mean that at least fits what you
believe to be check. Yes, it certainly does, and no question about
that. And certainly, you know, when you look at all the other
crazy stuff that's come out, think of Annie Jacobson, what nixt book with
the deformed Japanese and the other book about the Germans, they have so little
substance to them. He or he hasn't said anything that goes beyond the pales,
so to speak. And so you know, what we don't know is
how long he's been interested in Roswell or do we know that to grant or
lead? Do you know if he has indicated he's been following us for twenty
years or anything. I don't think he's been following I don't know if he's
been following for twenty years. But all that he said to me was that
he has had a long standing belief because he knows about the original stories.
And he said, he said to me, look, I cannot fathom that
there were so many different kinds of eyewitnesses there in nineteen forty seven, both
military and civilian. Is it really possible that every single one of these people
who initially came forward and had an interesting story to tell? Were they all
coerced into lying? Or did they all come together as a group and say,
hey, let's put out this urban ledgen and about something that crashed there.
I mean, what are the odds? He kept saying to me,
what are the odds that so many people would have come together and lied about
something or made up this kind of a story back in nineteen forty seven,
when things like that won't even really talk much about in a place like Roswell
in New Mexico. And let me assure you that many of these people didn't
come forward. I've had people say, well, how come Jesse marsall came
forward to you stand, you know, like he knows you're a UFO expert,
so he's making up a story for where me he didn't come forward?
And Bill Moore and I when we tracked on sixty two people in a year
and a half, we had to find them. We went after them.
They didn't come running to us. It took you know, a lot of
dog work and huge phone bills. Is before the internet, you understand,
to find these people. Look, I had to dig out Thomas Jefferson Dubos.
I had a hunch he might be alive and if he probably came from
West Point because all kinds of officers after World War Two were West Finders who
stayed in They were career people. So I called the West Point the alumni
association. Yes he's still around, and they gave me some hints about where
he was. And I had trouble finding because he was only down in Florida
in the wintertime in the summer time. But I found him. I was
going to Florida. I met with him. He didn't go volunteering to me,
which is true of the recent witnesses that Don Schmidt and Tom Carey have
also been looking for. I mean, they all you all have to do
research to find who was there when, who might have known something. Hunt
these people down, call them up and see if they're willing to say something
an interesting point, an interesting point when they talked about the Roswell thing,
and I think it was Tom Carey said it, it's sort of maybe sort
of applies to this. He said that any of the lot or not all
or but a lot of the witnesses who came forward, who volunteered with stories
almost always turned out to be not true. It was the ones that they
had to track down that were the real significant stories. And so there again
is a question about Brandon sort of coming forward in this when nobody's really asking
him about, well, what about Lee, We didn't get to you.
Do you believe the statement or false mat just to publicize this book? Do
you get that sense? No? I don't get the sense from Chase.
And yesterday he told me that just in this first week alone, that everything
has kind of come down on him for what he's been doing and saying,
he said that the CIA thinks of it more as a nuisance factor. They
don't really have the time, they don't want the time, they didn't want
to have to talk about this or defend themselves. He's pretty much kind of
on his own about this, and so everybody who's trying to back the CIA
into a core or with all these letters and almost demands, and you must
tell us, you know, was there really a roswell box or not?
You know, the CIA sees this like, you know, like like you're
a human and you've got like moths flying out. You just want to kind
of brush them off because they have other things to spend their time doing.
The other thing that people are talking about, you guys were talking a minute
ago, was what did the CIA tell him to take out of the book.
It seems to be almost bigger than it really should be. I believe
that all that he's talking about here is that he may have included things in
the book that were of specific policies or agency procedures that of course they wouldn't
want any kind of hint to come out, because basically, he signed a
secrecy old years ago that he wouldn't reveal things that were of a policy or
procedural matter. And so it sounds like to me he had some things in
the book that were little too close to home, and they probably said to
him take that out, you know, either deleted or write something else around
it. But you're getting a little too close to how we operate here,
and we don't think you're just guessing about that, though. I'm just guessing
about that. No, it's just just basically what he said to me the
other day was they're thinking of it in terms of it's like a nuisance to
them right now. There's nothing to it as far as they're concerned. It's
almost like it made me think of you know, back when the Roswell incident
occurred and the military had whatever it was it crashed, and wasn't it j
ed Gohoover who was complaining that the military wasn't letting his agents get a hold
of the disc Yeah, yeah, not sharing their information yet, right right,
Remember that j Edgar Hoover also lied. It is not now, nor
has it ever been the policy of the UFOs too, I mean of the
FBI to delve into UFOs and then Bruce mcabee gets fifteen hundred pages of FUFOS
right, Yeah, the got caught the same way in the in the nineteen
seventies. Yes, so yeah, to Grant's point earlier though, Lee,
and this is a curious one. I know, Grant's very curious about it.
Why is he only talking to you now and he's not talking to anybody
else. Look, I you know, are you on the payroll? Well,
well, next week I get my neuralizers, so be careful. Yeah,
I'm going to aim it at you the next time I see you.
All I know from the timeline of all this. He did the first interview
with Coast to Coast and I heard about it. I stumbled upon it.
I listened to some of it, and I wondered, also, why isn't
this a bigger story? And I couldn't find anybody who was willing to give
me his contact information, so I thought, well, okay, I went
to his website. I found two different addresses email addresses for him on the
website. I wrote him an email to both addresses and introduced myself and said,
I Chase, Here's who i am, here's what some of the things
that I've done. I would love to interview you any chance you're available in
the next day or two, I hope to hear from you. And the
next day he called me. I was surprised, and he said, I'd
love to talk to you, and that's how that happened. And then we
ended up having an hour and a half conversation where we talked about a lot
of things, most of which didn't get into my story. He was very
fourth right, very very forthcoming. But he did say to me after my
story was published that he didn't want to talk to anybody else at this point
because of all the heat that had come on him, because people above him
were complaining that there was a NUS inspector about you know, now, why
are they calling us the CIA? And he basically said, at this point,
I don't want to talk to anybody unless it's about just my book.
I don't want to talk about which is why he was sure, Well,
that's what I was going to say. It's I think that's why he was
the way he was on coast to coast. Yes, he tried to stick
to the book, and whenever he was asked questions about the CIA the other
stuff, he paused and he didn't want to answer the question. That's right.
And he even said at one point, are you going to ask me
this question? Because I'm sure they had an agreement you said you weren't going
to ask me this stuff but influenced Hollywood. That was the question. Yeah,
that was right and right because he even said, are you going to
ask me this question? And I know I'm sure it's because of what and
I had known what Lee had said that he didn't want to talk to anybody
anymore unless it was about his book, And all of a sudden, Noriri
is asking him questions that weren't just about his book. So he's like,
oh, you like told so what what Chase is doing right now? Because
people know kind of how to how to find him through his email address.
He said that he's getting emails from people, especially requests for interviews, and
he asked somebody who's filtering through the stuff and helping him decide if it's anybody
he wants to talk to, so that that's that's all I know about that,
And you're the only one. So your answer is kind of because you're
the most likable guy he talked to, I can buy that. Well,
you're very persistent. Well, you know, I wanted to clear some things
up with him. He was very happy that I followed through in certain things.
And and then when when he told me he was going to be in
New York and he suggested that we get together, well I couldn't pass that
up. And so there we were together yesterday and it was it was a
great meeting, and I was very happy to get to know him. A
little bit about him. Did you did he give you any secrets? Yes,
but I'll have to kill you if I tell you. So. Okay,
now I want to get into because we've only got about ten or so
minutes here about some of the other stuff Grant's been writing about. Has Grant's
been writing that there is some history with CIA playing with UFO people, like
you said earlier in particular, and of course this is something that Stanton's very
familiar with because it was related to him and his cohorts Bill Moore, like
we talked about earlier. So and it's great to get Stanton's take on this,
just to give the listeners some history who might not know much about this,
even though I talked about this a lot on the show, because I
think this is a really interesting history. Period of time in UFO history was
that in the late seventies, Richard Doty, who is an Air Force Office
of Special Intelligence officer at Kirtland Air Force Base, started interfacing with a guy
named Paul Benowitz, essentially giving him alleged UFO documents, some of which have
been discovered to be false to supposedly, and Dodie has said this to because
Benowitz was seeing lights. He was essentially observing technologies on Kirkland Airport. They
didn't want people to know about, including some of the Russian associates that Penwitz
had, and so they tried to make them look foolish and believe it was
all UFOs and extraterrestrial, so the Soviets would get off the track. The
thing was is that according to Bill Moore in who came clean in nineteen eighty
nine, that since nineteen eighty he had been working with Dody to get this
material out. William Moore being the person who wrote the first Big Rodslow book
mostly based off of Stanton's work. Now Bill and I together, but Charles
Burlocks is the one that took advantage of what right his name was magic with
publishers, the corner office at Double Day and all that sort of stuff.
So you want to get a book published, do it with Burlets and you'll
get it published. So the question is, I guess this kind of hinges
around. Dody says and Moore says, they were working with a gentleman that
they gave the code named Falcon. And the question is did this Falcon person
exist? Was it Dody the whole time or not? And was this person
working for the CIA. I believe Bill Moore and Dotey said he worked for
a different agency other than the Air Force Intelligence. I know, at least
in Great Bishop's book, he has a strong feeling that if this person exists,
his only concern was the Soviet Union and not UFOs at all. I'm
wondering, what are your thoughts, Stanton on Falcon, if he existed,
and who he might have worked for. Well, you know, Bill was
keeping me informed when he first met with Dodi in the restaurant in Albuquerque when
he was publicizing the book Roswell Incident. I had I think maybe two conversations
with Dody over the years, and my feeling was that they were probably a
little not happy with Bill not running the way he should have with the information
that he was being gifted with, you know them twelve documents and others.
Because Bill and Jamie were I had moved back east in nineteen eighty, so
Bill and Jamie were in southern California. I am someone who got the two
of them together in the first place, and they were trying to they were
raising money from people. They were going to have a movie and a book
and do all kinds of stuff and make me sort of a partner along the
way a little bit. But they had saucerers in their eyes. I mean,
they were looking to go big time. And I wasn't overjoyed about that.
And I found that Bill was a strange character and he did his own
thing, and I was very upset with him when he talked about what he
talked about in Las Vegas in eighty nine, and it was distressing to me.
We're very different people in how we go about things. And as anybody
granted you talked to Bill in the last five years, I haven't either more
than that. And you know, I also got caught in the middle,
you know, just to give you an example of this, people knew I
knew him. They were sending him money for books and they weren't getting the
books. So they were complaining to me, right, and I complained to
him. I said, you're violating the law of Bill. Oh there's no
law, and maybe bad business, but so I checked at the post office,
and you do mail order stuff. There aren't laws about complying with orders
and money and you know, all this kind of stuff. But we thought
differently about these things. He thought he needed it more is what he said,
than they did the money, and that's not the proper approach as far
as I'm concerned. And so I think Bill had you know, it was
the kind of guy who would leave home to go off on tracking down something.
He wouldn't tell his wife where he was going, and they had the
child who had allergies and she didn't drive, and the perilous thing to do,
an irresponsible thing to do, and so you know, it was very
hard dealing with Bill after a certain point in time. So what drives him
I don't know, But he's dropped out for a lot of years, and
I haven't because I'm intrigued by the story, by the whole business, not
the money angle. Although I've had people say you're only in it for the
money. Stand I almost didn't call you. One guy says, because you're
only in it for the money. Why do you say that? Well,
I see on all these television shows, I don't get paid. What do
you mean you don't get paid? I don't get paid, even Larry King,
that's right. And then he stepped back for a second. Well,
you showed your book, yeah, in context on the program. Look at
all the other people whose books they showed, and you know, they're collecting
a lot of money from my being on their show. I'm not getting a
dime for being on the show. They don't even pay it for meals.
That's your compensation. You get to actually advertise your book and hopefully you'll buy
your book and you'll be able to make the twenty cents from the balance.
Well, yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is there are a lot
of people out there who think everybody comes running to us, who think that
we're making lots of money from it. You know, I just did a
thing with George Norri in Toronto. I wasn't paid for that. They paid
the expenses and they had twelve hundred people there who paid good money to attend
and I sat signing water dress for hours. But you know, so there's
a lot of misrepresentation out there, and what really frosts me is the attitude
of the nasty, noisy negativists, as I call him. There's Joe Nickel
two times, ten years apart, saying that the roswel oh yeah, an
anonymous PR guide put out an unauthorized press release to get attention, and I
was on the air with them at the same time, and I pointed out
that was ridiculous, and so forth, nine years later, he's still saying
the same thing. I gave him Walkout's name. I pointed out, you
know, all the facts didn't bother him at all. Don't bother me at
the facts. My mind's made up. That's the noisy negative iss. So
here we have a great area. I would say with Chase, I don't
believe it's one hundred percent true that everything he said is it gives us a
true picture. On the other hand, I think it mostly is. And
so what I'm hoping is that other people will come forward and say, what
the hell, I'm retired, I'm old. Now maybe we should all tell
the truth about this. I don't know, Grant, you think that's going
to happen. Probably not. Well, I didn't think this Chase would happen
either. Yeah, So, and Grant, you kind of feel that this
balcon guy, your belief is that he was working for CIA, and that
that incident kind of mirrors this one. And there was incidents before even more
important like this. You know, the whole deal with Bill with the CIA,
and he was representing CIA people, and you have all these high ranking
names that supposedly were above Falcon. But you have two stories before that.
You have the story about Walt Disney. It's almost exactly the same as the
Chase Brandon's story, and that one we don't have as much evidence. But
the one the story was with Walt Disney that he was told to do a
documentary. He was offered all this film, so they put it out,
he starts doing the film, and then at the last minute, when he's
ready to do put the film in, they pulled the film back and the
war. Kimball told that story at amw fun conference. Yeah. And these
intelligence right or Air Force people who were telling him this. Yeah, And
according to Kimball, these Air Force people really did genuine believe or at least
told him they believe they had this UFO VIDI or film. Yeah. Well,
look at the whole Emmenegger and Sandlers stuff that was That's me is the
key story, and you follow is nineteen sixty nine. The US Air Force
is in the same position as the as the CIA is right now. This
is you know, we don't want this, it's takes away from our time.
We're not interested, and they're making this this statement. Oh no,
we're and they're out of the business in nineteen sixty nine, and Stanton was
around then. I was around just shortly after there, and Stanton can confirm
that in nineteen sixty nine there was no such thing as MG twelve and sa
CIA, all these rumored stories about them working. It was basically just the
US Air Force. And when the US Air Force got out of it in
nineteen sixty nine, it was game over. There was nothing about UFOs.
It was like, the government is not involved. And it's like in Canada
that we don't know he was running the UFOs in Canada and yet they shut
down the thing. They're not involved. It's like the CIA, it's a
nuisance to us. Why in nineteen seventy two do they go to Bob and
Emmenager and Alan Sandler and offer them the documentary film from the Pullman Air Force
Base, give them eight seconds to put in their documentary and actually give them
a film that they forgot to take back that they still have possession of a
top secret film that they have from nineteen seventy two that was given to them.
Why would you start the fire? I mean, it is like the
CIA. You put the stuff out, you give them the Haloman film,
and then at the last second you have pull it back, and then you
go to the company position, this is this is nonsense. We're not interested
in this, we've never been Go and refer to blue Book, and the
CIA says no, you go refer to the nineteen ninety seven study that we
did on UFOs and they go back to the company policy and say we're not
interested. And they keep dropping this stuff. And I say, they've done
it almost every second year for the last fifty sixty years. It happens over
and over again. Pull it, put it out, pull it back,
go to the company position, and these stories are getting out, and that
well, semmen Aker's story is the key story. Well, Emmenegger, I
was living in the LA area and he was the only one in somebody there
was an article he was going to be doing a movie. So I called
him the only one in the book. How can you do one without me?
So I met with him and Sandler and one of they mentioned they were
going to Soviet Union. I said, I've got a big report of Russian
UFO stuff. Oh, give it to us, we'll get it translated.
I'm saying, hey, we're not talking ten pages here. We're talking big,
that's all right. So I gave it to them and they got me
a big translation. It turned out using classified methods, apparently because they had
computer translation developed and nobody knew about it. Just Sandler had intelligence connections.
That's how they did that. They talk me no questions, and let me
give you another. When we were in Washington for that program UFO Cover Up
Live, I mentioned that I had the CIA, said I could appeal one
of the They turned me down on releasing some of that top secret CIA stuff,
So you can appeal if you want to appeal, called this number and
ask for let's say, Charles. So I'm telling this to Emmenegger while we're
sitting around in Washington there. He corrected me, Chris, not Charles Hell.
Did he know who the right guy was? And the key point of
this whole thing was Emmenigger. I know Emmenigger better than anybody in the UFO.
I've talked to him hundreds of times, and he told me he said
he was talking about the production when they were doing the actual production of UFO's
Past President Future in seventy four to seventy five, whenever it was they had
a CIA guy on the production set the entire time, and his name Jamie's.
The guy's name is Dick Betsky. And I said, well, what
was he doing on? What was he doing there? And he said,
I don't know, he just was there all the time. I don't know,
maybe Alan brought him in. I didn't really know talk to him or
but I know there was a CIA gaither the whole time. So here's the
CIA now saying we're not interested, we have nothing to do with this,
and over and over and over again that with the Falcon with Ammennager, they're
there, they're watching there, they're manipulating they I just don't believe they're not
interested, right, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well, and the interesting
of course you've mentioned UFO cover Live, which came out in nineteen eighty eight.
We were talking about Dody and Falcon there. Richard Dody played Falcon,
and you know he was in the screen. If people haven't seen this,
I actually have it up on YouTube, the full thing. I was able
to find it on YouTube and people have been watching it. But yeah,
he's behind this screen and you just see this outline of Richard Dody's say,
I'm Falcon. And we had an alien, and he liked to eat strawberry
ice cream, the famous strawberry ice music. Well and so, and that's
the curious thing is at least Richard Dody was involved with getting out all of
this information before, assumably both because of the Soviet question. Of course,
Grant brings up other questions on his website as too, Was it more than
that? Is it the actual UFO material they're messing with here? And you
know, the question is was Dody working alone or a lot not? Was
he working with the CIA? Even the MJ twelve documents, which I know,
Stan, I've read your book. You believe at least the original documents
Jamie Shandera got out or the real deal. But according to Tim Good,
who also got these documents separately, he said he was working with He told
Richard Dolan he got them from people that were working not doty, but people
working with Dodie, is what he told Richard Dolan. Well, you know,
we should give about our websites. I'm just going to write down Grant's
and I you know, put it out loud. P com is mine?
Yep, what if it presidential UFO dot com? Okay, so he's got
a bunch of stories, lots of reading on all of this stuff on the
front page of his website. Of course, you can find it true h
Lee at huffingtonPost dot com and look for Lee Spiegel or go to Where's News.
Well also they can just also step to go to Lespiegel dot com.
Oh that's right, and go to Stanton Friedman dot com. That's why Stanton
and I have the same web master dot com. Right, So we have
a few a couple of minutes here are there we I think we've covered it
a lot here. This has been wonderful, but let's get maybe. I'm
sure everybody I was going to say, does anybody have any closing thoughts?
I'm sure everybody does, And I think we've got time if you can spend
a minute, and you did you want to start, Lee? Yeah,
I want. I want to say that you know if when when when Chase
Brandon came out with his story, h and everybody started talking about Roswell this
and Roswell had it made me think that that none of this would have caused
any kind of controversy whatsoever if it hadn't been for Stan Friedman. Stan,
it's all your fault. This everybody else is, you know, in the
way, in the way that George Knapp put the phrase area fifty one on
the lips of Americans. Stan Friedman did this same thing with Roswell, and
nobody can ever take that away from him. And I admire you for that
stand. And all the people that have come after you, all the research,
all their books, all the criticisms, they can't touch the fact that
you were the first person who dug the information out and wanted to share it
with the world. And I think that earns everybody's respect. Well, I
appreciate that very much. Let me mention one thing. The MUFON conference is
coming up in Cincinnati August, the second, third, fourth, I guess
it is the third, fourth, and fifth, and it'll be interesting to
see what happens there. There's supposedly some big stories coming out blockbusters. Yeah,
and I don't know what they are, but maybe Chase Brandon will work
in this. And one little comment that really struck me as a coincidence.
The producer of my movie UFOs are real way back in seventy nine. But
Brandon Chase, Oh really, yes, really that is of money. Weird.
That was my first thought. I said, somebody playing games here.
You know, what is it? Somebody playing games? That's a good segue
to Grant Well. To me, I see the story as just an extension
of stories I've done for years and years and years, this sort of gradual
disclosure that they want to stuff out. They have to control the cover up
because they can't allow somebody to get an actual piece of material from that rosweld
box and run with it, because then the New York Times Washington Post suddenly
realized they've been had, and suddenly they see themselves as being dragged through the
streets like Gaddafi by you know, a mob. They just don't want that,
but they want to stuff out. And I that's my inside belief substantiated.
I think by GOT twenty thirty cases, the substantial that there are people
up there who want this out. They but they want they want parts of
it out. They wanted to get out the idea that MJ twelve existed,
the fact that Roswell is for real, all this kind of stuff, and
a lot of this is just playing games and fiction. And I really think
this will just sort of fade away like all the other stories, like the
Corso story, and everybody will will go on to the next story. I
just hope that people keep, especially leave because he's in contact. Keep Brandon
talking because I think he's talking. He because he works for the CIA.
It means more to me than just some guy who happened to wants work for
an agency. I log everything that he says. I transcribe everything he says
because I find very important things in what he's saying. So I hopefully keeps
them talking. Hope he keeps saying stuff because I think we're learning from this
guy. You know, I think basically, I think he's telling the truth.
It's just just got all this kind of fiction stuff that you got to
weed through to get to get to what's actually going on. Well, yesterday
he told me that because I suggested it. I said, look, as
this all develops, if you feel like you want to now make some statements
of your own just to kind of respond to what's what's coming down here by
everybody in the UFO community, I said, give me a call, let's
talk about it, and we'll do another story, but it will be your
statement of how you want to respond to all the stuff that's happening right now.
So that's that's where we left it, can I ask a Leah question.
Yes, I watched your fan website as this thing was going, and
I watched how many comments and how many Facebook shares there was, And I
would just like to know how many people you figure read this article. It
must have been unreal so far up to about one and a half million page
hints. Unbelievable and and you know it's something like what four thousand comments now?
And I have to tell you, I am I am so sick of
these armchair critics who just sit there and nobody does any real legwork out there,
and they think that it's okay for them to just comment on one thing
or another when they have no idea what they're talking about. H And I
basically would like to say to all of them, I want to shake them
all up and say, listens, if you haven't done any personal legwork,
if you haven't gone up there, lifted the phone and done even one interview
with anybody, then your opinion is not valid. It's not based on anything
real, and and you should pretty much, you know, shut up or
put up. You want to be part of this conversation, then then do
something about it. Don't just leave it up to all of us who are
trying to do something. Everybody's got to work on this, that's my opinion,
right on, right, all right, Thank you guys so much for
being on the show and spending time with us, for having us. Thank
you, al Andro, I guys, all right, that was a lot
of fun. Thank you very much to my guest Lisepiego grand Ca and the
Venerable Stanton Redman. So what a wonderful chance to be able to talk to
all of those guys about a very intriguing and important development in the field of
euphology. I gotta tell you. Grant did send me an update that Chase
Brandon did do some BBC interviews that he was able to get and Chase did
say there was nothing UFO related removed from his books by the CIA, So
we did confirm that question that we had out standing from the show. But
still Grant has some very compelling arguments I think there. So what's really going
on? I don't know, Will we ever know? I don't know,
I hope, so we'll keep working on it though. I know all of
my guests and myself you to work on it. And thank you all again
for joining us on UFO Think Tank. Radio. Remember because I love you.
You can get twenty twenty five percent off of the Cosmic Exploration Conference.
Just use the code U T T uppercase U T T when you register.
You can find that at ufodailynews dot com. There's a link at the top
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this information you'll find at UFO Daily News. Thank you all so much for
joining me once again, and I'll be talking to you next week. Adio Smootato