1 00:00:01,199 --> 00:00:08,960 A semio the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,519 --> 00:00:13,839 an idea. The population of atheists in this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:19,559 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,800 truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,960 on a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:32,880 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,719 wisdom will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and 8 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:49,640 start thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. A 9 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,159 friend and fellow activist John W. Loftis Jess reached out to me a few 10 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:07,359 days ago. He had published kind of a distilled down version of a book 11 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:11,439 that he released in November of twenty twenty one. The books called God and 12 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,840 Horrendous Suffering, kind of a deep dive into what we call the problem of 13 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,760 evil. I like to call the problem of needless suffering. John would call 14 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:27,319 it horrendous suffering. And it's a good problem to bring up, because when 15 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:33,400 you and I engage with these sort of blank eyed, happy clappy Christians who 16 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:38,040 say God is good all the time. He is perfectly just and omni benevolent. 17 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,480 Right, Everything happens for a reason. And then you and I ask 18 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:45,159 reasonable questions. We're like, well, hang on just a second. Twenty 19 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,280 five thousand people are going to starve to death today. I think they might 20 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:55,120 take issue with the bumper sticker on your car that says God is good all 21 00:01:55,239 --> 00:02:00,159 the time. Jesus never fails. We've got war and famine and disease, 22 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,000 natural disasters and corruption and just horrible stuff happening all the time. This does 23 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:12,120 not seem like a master blueprint by a perfect creator. And then often we 24 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:16,039 will see the casual believer kind of drift into these conversation stoppers. You know, 25 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,400 well, free will, it's a fallen world. Free will, it's 26 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,080 a fallen world. Or worse. When you talk to apologists, they get 27 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,599 into how God uses evil for his own glory. Well, you know, 28 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:30,680 in order for God to be good, you have to have something to contrast 29 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:35,120 the good with, so God kind of needs evil. As it says in 30 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:38,360 the Book of Isaiah, right, God created evil. Why would a good 31 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:44,879 God create evil? I remember this was way back when my channel first started. 32 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,840 I guess it's been fourteen years. One of the first videos I ever 33 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,080 produced was called The Story of Susie, and the character of Susie spent her 34 00:02:54,159 --> 00:02:59,400 Christian lying with their hands to the sky, thanking and praising God for his 35 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:02,840 goodness. Says, planes were falling out of the sky and her grandma gets 36 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,280 hit by a car. Just just shit's going down all around her, and 37 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,080 she's like, praise Jesus, Praise Jesus. Right, Christianity Today, I 38 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:19,479 think it was. Christianity Today did a feature on me and the Story of 39 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:24,520 Susy video when it released. Now, strangely, they weren't able to get 40 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:30,759 a hold of me to participate in the piece, even though I'm a public 41 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,439 figure online, my website, my emails, they were all right there, 42 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,879 no, no. The author of the piece couldn't get a hold of me, 43 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,719 but she was able to get comment from a Christian apologist, a guy 44 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,080 named Norman Geisler. So he shows up and he says this. He says, 45 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:53,639 well, in order for us to know what a straight line looks like, 46 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:59,800 we have to know what a crooked line looks like. So God allows 47 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,840 the crooked line so that the straight line will make moral sense. This is 48 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,000 like the kind of crap that you and I hear all the time. Geisler 49 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:15,759 wrote a whole article this decades ago on the problem of evil. He titled 50 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:20,040 the article God, Evil and Dispensations. It's a very lofty piece, lot 51 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:24,959 of big words, and he says kind of the same stuff. God doesn't 52 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:30,720 really get glory from evil, but when evil happens, the fact that he 53 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:38,600 allowed free will to produce evil, that will bring glory to God. He 54 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:44,560 talks about Paul in the New Testament, saying that we exalt in our tribulations 55 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,879 because tribulations bring about perseverance, which prove character, which bring hope. That's 56 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:58,079 out of the Book of Romans Tewod Corinthians four seventeen. For momentary light affliction 57 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:04,480 is producing for us in it weight of glory, far beyond comparison. In 58 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:08,759 my first book, d Converted, I was I think I did a whole 59 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,600 section on this. I'm like, what is considered light and momentary affliction in 60 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:19,360 the eyes of the apologist? Child leukemia, people losing their arms and legs 61 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:27,120 in horrible car crashes tsunamis that wipe out a quarter of a million people in 62 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:30,879 US single day. I'm sorry, momentary light affliction, somebody qualify that, 63 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,720 well, you have to have the crooked line. Seth. That crooked line 64 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:42,199 helps us know that God made the straight line. Essay. Of course, 65 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:47,160 the Book of Isaiah says that God created evil. Right, God created all 66 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,079 things, This must include evil. I'm going on and on and on. 67 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:58,519 Anyway, back to my original point. John Loftis has distilled the book down 68 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,800 into some major points, and I think these will be useful to you and 69 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,879 me in our own conversations, and we need to be talking more about this 70 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,920 specific counter apologetic and he asked if I would voice it to do an audio 71 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:16,920 version so that people had the option to listen instead of reading. And I 72 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:25,160 asked John for permission to read it for you here on the podcast now, 73 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,680 because I don't want to interrupt the piece once we get started. Let me 74 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,120 take a short break right here, and I will come back and read for 75 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:39,040 you the article. The text version is linked in the description box God and 76 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:49,000 Horrendous Suffering. I'll do it next, Okay, as promised, allow me 77 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:57,319 to read for you uninterrupted this piece. It's about thirty seven minutes long. 78 00:06:57,639 --> 00:07:00,519 I think it raises a lot of good points. It will benefit you in 79 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:10,560 the conversations you are having out there God and horrendous Suffering. First published in 80 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:18,160 the Trinity Journal of Natural and Philosophical Theology in the spring of twenty twenty three. 81 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:26,480 The evidential problem of horrendous suffering is one of the most powerful refutations of 82 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:31,040 the theistic God as can be found. If there's an omni everything God, 83 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:40,319 one who is omni benevolent or perfectly good, omniscient or all knowing and omnipotent 84 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:46,000 or all powerful, the issue of why there is horrendous suffering in the world 85 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,240 requires an explanation. The reason is that a perfectly good God would want to 86 00:07:51,319 --> 00:07:57,399 eliminate it, an all knowing God would know how to eliminate it, and 87 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:01,879 an all powerful God would be a to eliminate it. So the extent of 88 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:07,959 horrendis suffering means that either God does not care enough to eliminate it, or 89 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:13,439 God is not smart enough to eliminate it, or God is not powerful enough 90 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:20,600 to eliminate it. The stubborn fact of horrendus suffering means something is wrong with 91 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:26,519 God's goodness, his knowledge, or his ability. Just think of this in 92 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:31,279 terms of who has the greatest moral obligation to help someone who is suffering. 93 00:08:31,679 --> 00:08:37,480 It's the person who knows of the suffering, who cares the most to alleviate 94 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:41,679 it, and who has the greatest ability to alleviate it. Therefore, the 95 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:48,879 person who has the greatest obligation to alleviate horrendous suffering is a theistic omni good. 96 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,360 If he exists, anyone who is wholly good would be morally obligated to 97 00:08:56,519 --> 00:09:01,120 prevent horrendous suffering, especially if all all it would take was a snap of 98 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:07,600 the fingers. There are two categories of horrendous suffering that must be adequately explained 99 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:15,919 by apologists. For God. One moral evils that is suffering caused by the 100 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:22,559 choices of moral agents. Examples include the Holocaust, the atomic obliteration of Hiroshima 101 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:30,919 and Nagasaki, terrorist beheadings, childhood molestation, torture, slavery, gang rapes, 102 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:37,200 wars, and so on. Then there's two natural evils that is suffering 103 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:45,919 caused by natural disasters. Examples include pandemics, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, 104 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:52,279 volcanic eruptions, droughts, earthquakes, massive wildfires, and so on, Including 105 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,120 the enormous suffering caused by the kill or be killed law of predation. In 106 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:03,159 the animal kingdom, there are several levels of suffering, stretching from mere hunger 107 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:09,240 pangs to the horrors of the Holocaust. But we don't need to determine the 108 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:16,360 exact demarcation point when the suffering becomes too horrific for an omni everything God, 109 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:20,639 or the greater the suffering is, then the greater the problem of evil is 110 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,320 for an omni good. My focus is on horrendous suffering, the kind that 111 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:33,320 turns our stomachs. It's the best kind of suffering to test the probability of 112 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:39,279 a good God. If believers cannot solve this problem except by focusing on hypothetical 113 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:48,159 possibilities rather than on probabilities, or by punting to ignorance by saying God's ways 114 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,559 are above ours, then that God has allowed more suffering in the world than 115 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,759 is reasonable for reasonable people to accept. Surely, a God who created reasonable 116 00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:05,519 peace people should provide what reasonable people need if he wants us to believe. 117 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,519 If we think exclusively in terms of probabilities, the more horrendous suffering that exists, 118 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:18,200 the less probable an omni everything God exists. And there is too much 119 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:24,840 horrendous suffering for God to exist. In legal terms, the theistic omni good 120 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:31,159 could easily be convicted of the crime of depraved indifference. This is when a 121 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:37,080 defendant's conduct is so wanton, so deficient of concerns, so lacking in regard 122 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,919 for the lives of others, and so blameworthy that it warrants the same criminal 123 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,799 liability imposed upon the person who intentionally causes the crime. The strength of the 124 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:58,120 problem of horrendous suffering depends on one's religious views. It's much greater for evangelicals 125 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,759 who believe in a God who is spired the horrific tales of the Bible, 126 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:09,960 including sending people into an eternal conscious torment in hell. So apologists like William 127 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:16,960 Lane Craig have said, the problem of evil is certainly the greatest obstacle to 128 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:22,600 belief in the existence of God. When I ponder both the extent and depth 129 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,919 of suffering in the world, whether due to man's inhumanity to man or to 130 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:33,440 natural disasters, then I must confess that I find it hard to believe that 131 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,639 God exists. Apologist James Sennet echoed what Craig said. He said, by 132 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,600 far, the most important objection to the faith is the so called problem of 133 00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:50,399 evil. I tell my philosophy of religion students that if they are Christians and 134 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,679 the problem of evil does not keep them up at night, then they don't 135 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:01,360 understand it. The strength of this problem is perhaps the greatest for Calvinists who 136 00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:09,360 believe in theological determinism as opposed to non Calvinists who believe in free will, 137 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:16,639 but every believer faces this problem. Pantheists believe suffering is an illusion or maya, 138 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:24,279 but they cannot avoid suffering throughout their lives. For polytheists, their multiple 139 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:31,519 gods aren't powerful enough to decisively overcome suffering and are believed to cause much of 140 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:37,919 it. Process theologians like John B. Cobb and David Ray Griffin believe their 141 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,759 God can't force free willed agents to do good. Their God can only persuade 142 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:50,000 people to do good. But given the fact of horrendous suffering, such a 143 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:56,080 God as shown to be useless in the face of natural disasters and powerless when 144 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,039 it comes to the choices of liars, thieves, molesters, rapists, kidnappers, 145 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:07,879 and killers who refuse to be persuaded. For protest theologians like John Roth, 146 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:13,879 God's continual inaction must mean God is directly responsible for the suffering in the 147 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:20,080 world. Their response should be to protest the lack of divine action, in 148 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:26,639 hopes that publicly shaming him will goad God into doing good. For deists, 149 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,519 suffering has little force, but only because they already admit there God is an 150 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:39,399 absentee slum landlord of a world that should be condemned as unsafe for habitation. 151 00:14:39,639 --> 00:14:46,000 Then there are the misotheists from the Greek word messaiah to hate, who hate 152 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:52,000 God. Their view is a moral position, not a stance on the existence 153 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:58,879 of God. For them, it's immoral to praise and worship any moral monster, 154 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,960 including a divine one, real or conceptually held in the minds of believers, 155 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,440 so scorn, mockery, and rebellion against religious authorities are their appropriate responses. 156 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,320 By contrast, for atheists who don't believe any God exists, the fact 157 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:24,720 of horrendis suffering is not an intellectual problem at all. Suffering, even horrendous 158 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:28,919 suffering, is what we expect to find in a world that evolved by natural 159 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:37,399 selection. Let's turn now to consider four moral concerns that an omni good should 160 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,440 have considered when creating a world. Suppose a perfectly good deity exists who didn't 161 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:50,399 need or want anything, yet decided for some mysterious reason to create a world 162 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,799 to test free creatures. Okay, then such a deity should have four moral 163 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,679 concerns. The first moral concern for God would be that we don't abuse the 164 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:11,039 freedom given to us. The giver of a gift is blameworthy if he or 165 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:17,720 she knowingly gives gifts to people who will terribly abuse them. Any parent who 166 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:22,879 gives a razor blade to a two year old is culpable if that child hurts 167 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,559 himself or others with it. Good parents give their children more and more freedom 168 00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:33,440 to do what they want, so long as they are responsible with their freedom. 169 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,519 If children abuse their freedom, parents will discipline them by taking away their 170 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:45,960 freedom to make bad choices. It's that simple. Furthermore, children shouldn't have 171 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:52,840 to suffer draconian kinds of punishments for their actions when they err When my children 172 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:57,240 misbehaved, I didn't send a proverbial hurricane their way. In fact, as 173 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,919 a parent, I sought to protect them as much as I could from the 174 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,680 severe consequences of their actions. A little pain was a good thing, so 175 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:12,359 they could learn from their mistakes. But no caring father would let his children 176 00:17:12,519 --> 00:17:18,400 suffer the full brunt of their mistakes, certainly not broken bones or being beaten 177 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:23,400 within an inch of their lives. If a father sat by and did nothing 178 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:30,200 while his children suffered these and similar horrendous consequences for their misdeeds, the father 179 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:37,359 would be morally culpable for letting it happen. He would certainly want all predators, 180 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:42,079 killers, and rapists locked in jails and prisons away from his children. 181 00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:48,480 Since God doesn't do this for us in our world, he's not even as 182 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:53,559 loving as a typical human parent. An omni God should have kept us from 183 00:17:53,599 --> 00:18:00,400 abusing our freedom by creating us with a stronger propensity to dis like wrongdoing. 184 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,319 In much the same way that we have an aversion to drinking motor oil. 185 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:11,839 We could still drink it if we wanted to, but it's nauseating. Such 186 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,279 a deity could easily keep a person from molesting a child or raping someone if 187 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,200 at the very thought of it, the person began to suffer severe nausea. 188 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:29,400 We have the ability to do this with alcoholics when it comes to drinking, 189 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,480 so it shouldn't be a problem for a good deity to do this with respect 190 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:38,839 to the most heinous of crimes. Nothing of value to God would be lost 191 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,319 by him doing so. Since God supposedly can read our minds, he can 192 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:52,240 still judge our character by our intentions alone. After noting our intentions to do 193 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,640 harm, God could implant good thoughts into our heads to prevent us from actually 194 00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:04,200 carrying out our bad intentions. An omni good has many other means at his 195 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:11,079 disposal to keep us from harming others. A heart attack could have killed Hitler 196 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,400 and prevented World War II. Timothy McVeigh could have had a flat tire or 197 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:22,680 engine failure while driving to Oklahoma City to blow up the Murrah Federal Building and 198 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,680 the people in it. The militants who flew planes into the Twin Towers on 199 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:32,680 nine to eleven could have been robbed and beaten by New York thugs before they 200 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:38,279 could do so. There's utilitarianism at its best. A poisonous snake bite could 201 00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:45,359 have sent Saddam Hussein to an early grave, averting the Iraq War before it 202 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:51,599 happened. The Zyklon B pellets dropped down into the Auschwitz gas chambers could have 203 00:19:51,640 --> 00:20:00,200 simply malfunction by being miraculously neutralized, just like Jesus supposedly turned water in to 204 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:07,160 one. The second moral concern for God would be that the environment he placed 205 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,440 us in will not cause us excessive suffering. At the very minimum, an 206 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:19,640 omni good should prevent all natural disasters if such a god exists. The two 207 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:26,400 thousand and four Indonesian tsunami that killed approximately a quarter million people should never have 208 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:33,119 taken place if God had prevented it with a miracle by stopping the underwater earthquake 209 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,359 before it happened, no one would have been the wiser, precisely because it 210 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:45,440 didn't happen. By doing so, God could have remained hidden for some hidden 211 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:49,799 reason. Then with a perpetual miracle, he could keep it from happening in 212 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:56,559 the future. Such a God could stop all naturally caused horrendous suffering in this 213 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:02,200 manner, and none of us would be the wiser. We would just conclude 214 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,720 that this is how the natural world works, with much less suffering in it. 215 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,920 An Omnigod should not have created predation in the animal world either. The 216 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:19,319 amount of animal suffering is atrocious, as creatures prey on one another to feed 217 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:26,400 themselves. The extent of animal suffering cries out against the existence of a good 218 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:32,759 God. This horrific suffering is perhaps the most difficult problem of all. To 219 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:38,039 say these creatures do not feel pain is to reject the overwhelming evidence of evolution 220 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:44,400 that proves we are all related as creatures. In lieu of this, an 221 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,720 omnig good should have created all living things as vegans, like herbivores such as 222 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,279 rabbits, deer, sheep, cows, and hippos, And in order to 223 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:59,839 be sure there's enough vegetation for all of us, God could have reduced our 224 00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:07,000 mating cycles and or made edible vegetation like apple trees, corn stalks, blueberry 225 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:12,599 bushes, wheats, and tomato plants grow as plenteous as wild weeds do today. 226 00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:18,119 An all powerful God didn't even have to create us such that we needed 227 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:25,160 to eat anything at all. Since theists believe their God can do miracles, 228 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:33,880 he could sustain us all with miraculously created nutrients inside our biological systems throughout our 229 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,119 lives, and we wouldn't know anything different. Such a deity could simply do 230 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:45,240 a perpetual miracle here as well. In fact, there's nothing prohibiting God from 231 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:52,039 feeding us by the process of photosynthesis, just like plant life, thereby not 232 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:57,359 requiring animals at all. Given that God didn't do this. Many animals are 233 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:06,079 farmed for human concents asumption, under horrible conditions in intensive factory farms, abused 234 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:12,880 in experimental labs, or trapped in horrible ways without any condemnations of animal abuse. 235 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,519 In God's alleged revelation in the Bible, the third moral concern for God 236 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:26,880 would be that our bodies provide a reasonable measure of well being. All that 237 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,640 seems to be necessary for God and his plan of salvation is that we have 238 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:37,799 rational powers to think and choose, the ability to express our thoughts, and 239 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:42,480 bodies that will allow us to exercise our choices. So we could have been 240 00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:49,119 created much much differently. An omni good should have created all human beings with 241 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:55,680 one color of skin. There that was easy. There has been too much 242 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:03,240 institutional racism, race based slavery, and too many tribalistic wars because we don't 243 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:07,279 all have the same color of skin. Such a deity could have also made 244 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:15,039 all creatures capable of sexually self reproducing, like zebra sharks, komodo dragons, 245 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:21,599 some reptiles, and other species. If God had done this, it would 246 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,839 eliminate gender discrimination and gay hate crimes. Since there wouldn't be any gender or 247 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:34,480 sexual differences between us. An Omnigod should have created us with much stronger immune 248 00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:41,119 systems, so there would be no pandemics that decimate whole populations, or chronic 249 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:48,720 diseases like cancer, emphysema, leukemia, or for that matter, babies born 250 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,640 with deformed limbs, blindness, deafness, muteness, and so on. This 251 00:24:53,839 --> 00:25:00,319 is horrific suffering that God should never have created or used as any so of 252 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:07,240 punishment for our misdeeds, or allowed for any good, overarching mysterious purpose. 253 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,680 Such a God could have created us with self regenerating bodies. When we receive 254 00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:18,160 a cut, it heals itself over time, as does a sprained ankle or 255 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,799 even a broken bone. But why can't an injured spinal cord heel itself? 256 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,759 Why can't an amputated leg grow back in a few weeks. If that's all 257 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:36,400 we experienced in this world, we wouldn't know any different. Many animals can 258 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,319 regrow new parts of their bodies to replace those parts that have been damaged. 259 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,640 Lizards can grow new tails, Sharks continually replace lost teeth, Spiders can regrow 260 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:56,599 missing legs. An octopus can regrow severed arms. Starfish can regrow new arms 261 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:03,000 and even grow an entirely new body out of a severed arm. We find 262 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:08,279 lots of examples in nature that an omnigod could have created in us but didn't. 263 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,079 Such a god could have created us with a much higher threshold of pain. 264 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,839 He could have given us fish like gills to keep us from drowning. 265 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,279 He could have given us wings on our backs so we could fly to safety 266 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,759 if we fell off a cliff, or he could have made us much smaller 267 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,119 in size, so if we accidentally fell off that cliff, we wouldn't get 268 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,799 hurt, just like ants who have a very low terminal velocity. A fourth 269 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,079 moral concern for God would be to prevent a wide diversity of religions in the 270 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:51,000 world. If there is an omni good, he should have made it a 271 00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:57,559 priority to prevent religious diversity by clearly revealing himself in this world, such that 272 00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:03,319 only people who consciously refused to believe would do so. There would be no 273 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:11,519 such thing as reasonable non belief in the one true sect specific religion, regardless 274 00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,799 of when and where we were born or how we might be culturally indoctrinated. 275 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:22,279 Otherwise, such a God would have made his revelation available to every culture and 276 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:30,920 buttressed it with some astounding evidence based miracles. This deity would provide a naturalistic 277 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:38,279 moral code for everyone that excluded all religions that were misogynistic, racist, homophobic, 278 00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:45,279 nationalistic, and otherwise barbaric. In this way, he'd prevent religiously motivated 279 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:52,880 wars, crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings, suicide bombers, and terrorists. 280 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:59,920 Given the horrendous suffering caused by religious diversity, the probability that an omni good 281 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,880 exists is directly proportional to the amount of religious diversity that exists, and there 282 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,079 is way too much of it to suppose he does to sum up so far, 283 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:17,359 Given these four moral concerns, it is crystal clear for many of us 284 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,039 that a god who created this world just doesn't care about us. God had 285 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:27,799 a reckless disregard for our safety by giving us the gift of freedom before we 286 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,920 could use it responsibly. He placed us in an environment that causes us excessive 287 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:40,599 suffering and gave us bodies that don't provide a reasonable measure of well being. 288 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,920 On top of all that, he failed to let us know which religion is 289 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:52,079 true. Out of a great diversity of religions. Only if theists expect very 290 00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:56,920 little of their divine being can they defend what their God has done. Either 291 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,799 their God is not smart enough to fi figure out how to create a good 292 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:07,039 world, or God doesn't have the power to create it, or God just 293 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:14,519 doesn't care. These appear to be the only options given this world. Four 294 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:22,680 apologetic strategies. Marilyn McCord atoms admits this. She says the standard of apologetic 295 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:29,559 strategies for solving the problem of evil are powerless in the face of horrendous evils. 296 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:33,960 When it comes to animal suffering, C. S. Lewis admitted that 297 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:41,079 the Christian explanation of human pain cannot be extended to animal pain. So far 298 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,599 as we know, beasts are incapable either of sin or virtue. Therefore, 299 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:52,839 they can neither deserve pain nor be improved by it. Still, there are 300 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:59,960 four apologetic strategies used in solving the problem of horrendous suffering. According to one's 301 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:06,839 strategy, God won't help us since he's more interested in building our character and 302 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,920 horrendous suffering bill's character. This is one of the least successful strategies for answering 303 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:21,559 the problem suffering is one thing Horrendous suffering is another we're talking about the supposed 304 00:30:21,799 --> 00:30:29,119 value horrific suffering produces for the very people who suffer, not lessons for future 305 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,279 generations that can be learned with hindsight. It's also improbable that the virtues we 306 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,680 learn in this world, such as compassion for the poor, patience and times 307 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,240 of turmoil, forgiveness for someone who has wronged us, and the like, 308 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,279 will even be needed in a heavenly bliss, where there is no pain or 309 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:56,240 suffering for which to have compassion, patience, or to grant forgiveness. I 310 00:30:56,279 --> 00:31:00,079 am a white male who is not but ugly, or so a few people 311 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,400 tell me, who grew up in a middle class family, with all the 312 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:10,200 privileges that entails. To date, I have never spent a night in a 313 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,960 hospital bed, nor have I gone hungry. I've had my wits about me 314 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,359 most of the time. Anyway, Yet life has been hard for me. 315 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:25,720 This life has tried me to the core, though I haven't experienced any horrendous 316 00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:32,200 suffering in it. So this world doesn't need horrendous suffering. If my life 317 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:37,839 is any indication, all that a good God must do is eliminate the horrendous 318 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,200 kinds of suffering in our lives. There's plenty of suffering left in this life 319 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:48,759 to challenge us. A second strategy used by apologists is to maintain that God 320 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,480 can't help us when free will is involved, or he cannot help us very 321 00:31:55,599 --> 00:32:00,279 much. God needs to let our free choices play themselves out. But as 322 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:07,279 it stands, theists are the first ones to say unrestricted freedom is not a 323 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:12,319 good thing. In the case of heinous crimes. We put criminals in prison. 324 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,160 We do not let them roam the streets. Once they are discovered, 325 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,039 they lose their freedom in the interests of having a safe society. Safety is 326 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:29,160 a higher value than freedom. The theistic God has a mixed up sense of 327 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,799 what is more valuable. For that God thinks human freedom is more valuable than 328 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,160 having a safe society. All of us have a very limited range of free 329 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:45,279 choices anyway, if we have any at all. The limits of our choices 330 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:51,519 are set by our genetic material and our environment. It does absolutely no good 331 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:57,440 at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. 332 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,400 Some people don't have the strength needed to stop an attacker, while others 333 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,200 don't have the rational capacity needed to spot a con artist, I could not 334 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,559 be a world class athlete even if I wanted to. Our free will to 335 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,720 do what we want is limited by our age, race, gender, mental 336 00:33:19,759 --> 00:33:27,119 capacity, financial means, and geographical locality. Since we already have limited choices, 337 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,640 then God should further limit our choices if we seek to cause horrific harm 338 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,359 to others. A third strategy is to say that God cannot do away with 339 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:45,440 horrendous suffering because suffering is a necessary byproduct of causal natural laws. To have 340 00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:52,240 the one is to have the other. However, the apologist believes God created 341 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:57,920 the universe from nothing along with the laws of nature, So if God can 342 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:04,119 do that, he can also create a different universe with different laws of nature 343 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,119 without any horrendous suffering in it. It just doesn't make any sense that God 344 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:15,800 chose to create this world with so much horrific suffering when he could have created 345 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,519 a better one without it. Even if God failed to create a good universe 346 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,800 initially, he could still do miracles in this world to correct any errors in 347 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,960 it. An omnipotent, miracle working God can do anything in the material universe, 348 00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:38,920 or he's not a miracle working God. Even apologist Richard Swinburne agrees. 349 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:45,360 He says God is not limited by the laws of nature. He makes them, 350 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,960 and he can change or suspend them if he chooses. He can make 351 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:55,960 planets move in quite different ways, and chemical substances explode or not explode under 352 00:34:57,079 --> 00:35:02,159 quite different conditions from those which now govern their behavior. In a two thousand 353 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:07,840 and three debate on the existence of God with Eddie Tabash, chair of the 354 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:15,000 Center for Inquiry, Swinburne said God could quote raise this stadium into the air. 355 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,239 However, from what I can see, all God does in today's world 356 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,159 is to imprint an image of Jesus on a potato chip. Since this world 357 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,719 is causing so much horrific suffering, the question for the theist is why the 358 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:37,320 laws of this world are fixed and necessary when God could intervene to alleviate the 359 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:45,119 most horrific kinds of suffering. If changing the world requires some miraculous adjustment, 360 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,719 what's the problem people should matter enough for God to do that. I wonder 361 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,679 if theists have really thought through the implications of a God who prefers this present 362 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:02,880 set of natural laws with its sufferings, over constant miraculous maintenance. Does their 363 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:09,519 God care? Is their God lazy? When apologists defend the miracles in the 364 00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:15,800 Bible and elsewhere, they will talk about an omnipotent God who created the world 365 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,119 out of nothing, who sent fire down from the sky, and part of 366 00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:25,480 a sea that allowed six million Hebrews to pass on dry ground, Hebrews who 367 00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:31,360 lived in the desert for forty years where their sandals never wore out, and 368 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:37,280 who were fed by manna from heaven. An omnipotent God can do anything, 369 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:43,360 they'll say. It even says so in Matthew nineteen twenty six. With God, 370 00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:49,280 all things are possible. Their God is a miracle working God, so 371 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,880 it shouldn't be difficult to believe God does miracles, they'll add. Yet, 372 00:36:54,079 --> 00:37:00,280 when it comes to alleviating horrendous suffering, many apologists seem to argue so that 373 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:06,960 God can't do that. This appears to be nothing less than intellectual dishonesty. 374 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,920 I maintain that the burden of proof is upon apologists to show why any of 375 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:19,239 my suggested changes to the world are improbable. For an omnipotent, miracle working 376 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,320 God, nothing short of this will do. I'm suggesting there are several things 377 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:32,159 an omni good could do to eliminate horrendous suffering without producing a chaotic world or 378 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:38,239 inhibiting our character development that would help draw us to Him, all of which 379 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:45,119 are easy to conceive and already found in the animal kingdom. Since God, 380 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:51,000 if he exists, could have done differently but did not, he is to 381 00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:58,920 blame for all horrific suffering in this world. A fourth strategy used by apologists 382 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:06,679 is to hunt to mystery by claiming we simply cannot understand God's reasons for allowing 383 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:12,239 horrendous suffering in this world. The truth is that it seems very likely we 384 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,280 should be able to see God's reasons for allowing it, since most theists also 385 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,639 claim God wants us to believe in him and will condemn us in the afterlife 386 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:29,599 if we don't. More importantly, this answer cuts both ways. We're told 387 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:35,679 we can't understand God's purposes, and this is true. We can't begin to 388 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,920 grasp why there is so much suffering in our world if a good, omnipotent 389 00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:45,679 God exists. But if God is omniscient, as claimed, he should know 390 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,719 how to create a better world, especially since we do have a good idea 391 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:58,159 how he could have created it, So which is more likely that we cannot 392 00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:02,920 begin to understand God God's omniscient ways, or that we can have some kind 393 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,239 of idea about them. If we consider the idea that we are all created 394 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:15,079 in God's image, the answer seems obvious. We should indeed have some kind 395 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:21,239 of idea about God's omniscient ways. Since this is so, and since we 396 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,800 have good ideas on how God might have done things differently, the most reasonable 397 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:32,679 conclusion is that an all powerful, omniscient, perfectly good God does not exist. 398 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,599 Conclusion. If you name any specific example of horrendous suffering in this world, 399 00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:45,719 I can show you how an omni good could have eliminated it, which 400 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,800 would still leave plenty of suffering for an omni good to test us in this 401 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,519 world if that's important to a God who can predict what we will do. 402 00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:01,639 Anyway, in order to evade my challenge, I have found Christian apologists to 403 00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:09,840 be experts at cherry picking God's supposed divine attributes of omnipotence, omnicience, and 404 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:15,559 omni benevolence, depending on the problem to be solved. When it comes to 405 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:22,440 God's omnipotence, apologists embrace this attribute when it comes to believing he created an 406 00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:30,840 unfathomable and mysterious universe that continually surprises us. But when it comes to horrendous 407 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:37,239 suffering, apologists conveniently negate it by saying God cannot create a better world than 408 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:44,519 he did. One apologist, Thomas Ord, has stated this forthrightly, saying 409 00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:51,559 God cannot interfere in the world he created or with free willed choices intent on 410 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,719 doing harm. According to him, God simply doesn't intervene in the world. 411 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,400 How do apologists like Ord know this? They don't. They just affirm it 412 00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:07,480 because of the need to believe. So in order to save their faith from 413 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:15,199 refutation, they must allow God's omnipotence to only go so far and no farther. 414 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:22,360 This is where God's power arbitrarily ends where the apologist needs it to end 415 00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:29,840 to solve a problem for faith when it comes to God's omnitionis Apologists embrace this 416 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:35,679 attribute when it comes to God reading our minds, hearing billions of prayers at 417 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:42,320 the same time, and knowing everything that can be known, including minute details 418 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,800 into the distant future billions of years from now. But when it comes to 419 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:53,760 horrendous suffering, apologists negate it by claiming God didn't know how to create a 420 00:41:53,880 --> 00:42:00,480 good world without animals, or without natural disasters, or one in which free 421 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:07,800 willed creatures do no harm. Many apologists, such as William Hasker and Greg 422 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:14,119 Boyd have come to embrace open theism, which denies that God can fore no 423 00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:20,400 free willed human actions, so their God isn't to be blamed for what we 424 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:25,960 do. How do apologists know this? They don't. They just affirm it 425 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:30,840 because of the need to believe. So in order to save their faith from 426 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:37,880 refutation, they must allow God's omnitions to only go so far and no farther. 427 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:45,320 This is where God's knowledge arbitrarily ends where the apologist needs it to end 428 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:52,559 to solve a problem for faith when it comes to God's omni benevolence. Apologists 429 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:58,960 embrace this attribute when it comes to God's love and sending his son Jesus to 430 00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:05,320 pay the ultimate price by dying a horrible death for our sins, But when 431 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:12,039 it comes to suffering, apologists like Michael Peterson and Bruce Little appear to negate 432 00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:17,039 it by claiming God does not care that much about our daily lives. In 433 00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:22,559 their view, God does not care enough to micro manage the world, so 434 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:28,760 they claim that God is off the hook for much of the suffering we experience 435 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:34,880 in the world. How do apologists know this? They don't. They just 436 00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:39,800 affirm it because of the need to believe so in order to save their faith 437 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:46,400 from refutation, they must only allow God's omni benevolence to go so far and 438 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:54,239 no farther. This is where God's omni benevolence arbitrarily ends where the apologist needs 439 00:43:54,280 --> 00:44:00,079 it to end to solve a problem for faith. If this is not the 440 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:05,559 point, then what is it. Certainly an omniscient God knows how to intervene. 441 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,559 Certainly an omnipotent God has the ability to do so. Shouldn't an omni 442 00:44:10,639 --> 00:44:19,840 benevolent God have the motivation to do so so? The evidential problem of horrendous 443 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,400 suffering is one of the most powerful refutations of the theistic God as can be 444 00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:36,800 found. Okay that article God in Horrendous Suffering. I have linked the text 445 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,239 version in the description box of this show. I hope it helps you as 446 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,519 you engage the culture out there. Thanks to John for letting me share it 447 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:50,480 with you, and I will see you back here next time. Follow The 448 00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:54,880 Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of podcasts and videos. 449 00:44:55,039 --> 00:45:00,199 Products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logos, to atheist pages 450 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:06,320 and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. Log onto 451 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:12,400 our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com