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Hello, and welcome to open my
GUFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro

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Rojas, and I am here with
Martin Moover and shaker Willis. That's right,

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I'm a mover and your mover and
a shaker. Because you've got your

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you're going to be coming onto k
g r A as well, and you've

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got an exciting lineup for your first
show on KGIRA. Why don't you go

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ahead and talk about it? Wow, thank you, ale Hondo. Yeah,

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I'm really excited. I reached out
to a few different people and just

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said I want to really do a
really great debut show over there. And

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it's changed days now. It's going
to be on Tuesday at six to eight

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pm Eastern Standard time. Going to
be real early for the West Coast folks

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out there at three pm. So
my shows are always safe for work,

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so if you're listening at work live, you don't have to worry about that.

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So anyway, I first ran the
idea by Lee Spiegel and said,

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hey, can you ask James Fox
if you tube could come on and talk

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about the movie that you have been
working so diligently on and so he said

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yeah, but you know, James
is so busy. I really really doubt

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it, and I said, okay, So as a backup, I contacted

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Dave Marler and and Dave said and
I said, Dave, you know you're

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my favorite guest. I'd love to
have you on and from my debut show.

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And he wrote back, anyone else
I'd say no, but I'll be

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on. So then I heard back
from Lee Spiegel and he said, yes,

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James will do it. So all
three of them are going to be

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I'm going to have Dave Marler on
the first hour and then he's going to

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remain on the show along with Lee
Spiegel and James Fox. So I'm really

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excited about that. And that's just
Tuesday Night coming. Yeah, very exciting,

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very cool, cool guys. I've
been in contact with all three of

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them a lot lately because of course, James is working with Lee on this

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great documentary, and Marler, I
know it contributed to the documentary and so

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he's a cool dude. I like
those guys. So that's going to be

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really exciting. And if you're listening
to KGRA on what is Monday night Tuesday

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morning, you know you're going to
be about twenty four hours after me on

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Tuesday night Wednesday morning of SLAT and
if you're listening on the podcast, then

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you'll be able to enjoy the KGr
show of Martins tonight because I usually launch

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a podcasts on Tuesdays. That's right
now, I'm even confused, but I

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know it'll work out. Yeah.
Well, the listeners, I think get

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it essentially your Tuesday night. Yeah
yeah, I'm looking forward to the audience

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over at kg R A. I
know they have a pretty good size listening

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audience, very dedicated to that channel
itself. So yeah, I know this

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show runs on that so and has
been for quite a while, what about

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six months, I guess, huh
something like that. Maybe long yeah,

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maybe longer, I can't remember,
probably longer actually, So. Yeah,

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So there's a good friend to Tom. It was in Utah. He's probably

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listening. He listens to kg R
and I didn't know this. He listens

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to kg A lot, like so
he always hears this show. He's listened

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to my show for quite some time. He comes to Phoenix mooth on occasionally,

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but I didn't know that. So
he's excited for your show to be

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on KGRA. He'll be actually hearing
you more. So there will be people

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hearing you more than they might have
before. But the Utah thing was really

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fun. Kgra was there. This
is the Utah UFO event that was kind

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of a fest in Cedar City,
Utah. It was interesting. They called

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it Nate, who's a cool guy. He's an amazing photographer. He's changing

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his last name. It is Colin
Shaw, but he's changing it to Arizona.

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So as soon as Nate name will
be Nate Arizona. But he's a

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photographer and an amazing one. I
think you can even find his Instagram on

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Nathan Arizona. He's taken pictures for
our conference, so he's kind of spearhead

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at this event. And this is
the third one. He likes to use

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the phrase grassroots. This is grassroots, but his kind of definition of grassroots

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is more along the lines of if
it looks unorganized, that's that's actually just

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grassroots. So it was kind of
haphazard in a way. So for instance

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that the talks that have power points, they have to can't go on till

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night because he has a big screen
out in the park and it's too like

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light, so we have to wait
for the sun that go down, and

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so we kind of had to like, for instance, when Jeremy Corbel spoke,

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which was great to see him.
We had to just wait until it

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got dark, do do Do Do
Do, and then finally when it did,

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you know, dark enough, he
went on and it was one It

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was really cool, but it was
it was really pretty out there, and

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we actually went with some friends from
Phoenix move On, Don and Mary Anne

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and Jim and Stacy. Jim and
Stacy run Phoenix move On and we went

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to Zion and Bryce Canyon, which
are also amazing. We stopped at the

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north rim of the Grand Canyon,
which is pretty cool. So we made

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a pretty neat little trip out of
it. But yeah, it's fun to

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see Jeremy and all of those dudes. Which brings me to the guest for

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today. My guest for today is
John Alexander. Yeah, I'm very excited

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about this just because of what's going
on right now. So what's going on

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and of course we've talked about this, and we talked about this quite a

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bit with Jeremy Corbel on my last
show. But is that you know,

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we've got this new information that the
a tip you know, this this Pentagon

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UFO STA the actually used to have
a different name, and not only did

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it have a different name, it
also was centered around the Skinwalker Ranch,

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which is to me very shocking I
think to many others too. So yeah,

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the Skinwalker Ranch actually was a big
part of it. So that the

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group I'm getting a name was the
actually called the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Applications

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Program or a SWAP a SAP or
a SAP. A SAP is what it

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would be. And that name that
actually Skinwalker Ranch was being investigated at the

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time that they created this organization and
they got the funding from the government to

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do investigations, so that Skinwalker Ranch
really was the center of the investigation,

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which is shocking because of the craziness
that went on there. You know,

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we talked about it with Jeremy but
and he also talked about Utah things like

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these giant wolves or cattle mutilations or
other what they've even called poltergeist activity.

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So what's interesting is John Alexander was
part of all of these investigations. He's

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retired, he was a former he's
a colonel in Army intelligence. He also

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worked at Los Alamos and he is
a defense consultant specializing in non lethal weapons.

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And so yeah, very credible,
interesting person who's also very interested in

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the paranormal. Some people have been
frustrated with his kind of how he sees

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how the military interacts with this topic. But I feel that, you know,

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certain, even more so in what
we've discovered, is that what he

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said all along is proving to be
true, and we'll get into that in

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this discussion. And what he has
been saying is that, you know,

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more along the lines of that they
don't know what to do with the phenomena,

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not that the phenomena does not exist. He feels very much like Elizondo,

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that the phenomena does exist and it
hasn't been paid enough attention. So

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really great talk, really interesting time
to talk to him about all of this,

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because you know, I ask was
he even aware, because in previous

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interviews about a tip, it seems
like he was not aware of the government

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involvement with the investigation that he himself
was investigating. So right now, isn't

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that weird? That is really strange. So it's all just that's such a

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weird. It's all just really hard
to digest and to kind of unpack and

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put all together. But I'm attempting
to do that. Oh, I've got

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a Dent of Geek article coming out
soon on the Nimets leaked Nimetz document about

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that incident, and then hopefully any
day now and then I've got a bigger

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piece about all of this that I'm
putting together for a Dent of Geek magazine

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that's going to be coming out.
So wow, Yeah, exciting stuff,

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right, all good stuff. Yeah, are we ready to do the news

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because I got kind of a segue. Oh you do great? Well,

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you sort of segue did oh,
I did great well? The segua away,

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Okay, Well, I wanted to
talk about the nimets UFO and the

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I Team exclusively confidential report the analysis
of the TikTok Ufo incidents. George Knapp,

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my favorite reporter on the subject.
Out there journalists did a great,

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great story about this and you can
find it online. Also, I saw

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on your website there's in the UFO
updates for whatever that you have there headlines

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it is. There's also a war
Zone article written about this as well.

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I see you have that up there
today. So anyway, George in the

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I team, you know, they
they did this whirlwind tour to Washington,

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d C. And saw unclassified documents
about the NIMTZ incident back in off San

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Diego in two thousand and four.
Now these were written in two thousand.

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These documents are unclassified, but I
want to make a note that there's another

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highly classified document that that was written
at the same time that the public will

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probably or most likely never see.
But this unclassified document really talks about what

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was happening. And I didn't realize
this, I probably should have known.

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But there were seven pilots in all
that had an encounter with these objects or

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object to the tic TAC and so
what they were calling them in the document

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is AAVs, and which they decided, after all, at the end of

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this study that they were not a
threat. But what I really like about

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the name AAV it's anomalous aerial vehicle. They're actually calling it a vehicle.

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I mean, I think that's kind
of well, I think that's very interesting.

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Actually, So the equipment that was
used to track, or they did

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try to track, they tried to
lock on this object, they were unable

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to for quite a while. And
finally, you know, they're using equipment

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such as I don't know exactly what
it's called, but it can actually track

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a golf ball at one hundred miles. Think about that. It can track

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a golf ball at one hundred miles, and so they were able to finally,

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you know, lock onto it and
David Fraber. I'm not sure what's

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happened to David Fraver. He was
doing a lot of speaking out there.

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I have a little bit of an
update on that. Oh okay, good,

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glad to hear that. So anyway, the one thing I was a

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little bit confused about this, but
now there's more light shed on it.

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They actually saw a circular object below
the surface of the water that appeared to

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be rendezvousing with the tic TAC.
They think that it was about one hundred

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yards across. I think this is
all really really fascinating. Yeah, I

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think well Fraver has said that I
knee deep in all of this, of

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course, because I've been writing these
stories. So yeah, I'm immersed in

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the data. Fraver, I guess
I said that he is. He said

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his piece. He's gone on CNN, Fox News, all the big news

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outlets and done his interviews, and
so he's kind of he feels he's got

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what he has to say out there, so he's done. We'll see,

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though, hopefully he does some more
interviews, and you never know, people

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say that sometimes and they're still enticed
by exciting new projects. So we'll see

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if he comes out. But from
what I understand Corbel and I'll give I

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can give actually the listeners some exclusive
news because I have done some investigation on

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all of this for my story.
But Jeremy Corbel says he has talked to

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Fraver about this document, and FRAVERR
said that this document is the most accurate

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portrayal of what happened, because some
people out on the internet were claiming that

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it wasn't real, and it wasn't
as George knapclaimed, a military document prepared

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by and for the military. It
seems as though it was prepared for by

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a third party by a contractor,
most likely Bass Big Low Aerospace there their

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department, but still, you know, using their investigation. Now along these

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lines, there's a lot of really
kind of wild speculation in there, such

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as there was an object under the
water and there was docking with the object

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and stuff. Because what was seen, if you read the document, was

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a disturbance on the water below the
AAV and one of the witnesses pilots described

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a disturbances fifty two one hundred feet
round, and it looked like water going

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over a shoal or water being disturbed
by, you know, a submerging object.

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Fravor disguised it as frothy, almost
like boiling water for a short period

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of time under the object. Yeah, he essentially came in on the object.

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They looked at it. He said, yeah, looked like this giant

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tictac, you know, almost like
with a candy white covering. His wingman

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said that it looked like a whiteboard, you know, it was just white

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white. And when Fraverer came in
to get close to it at boom was

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gone. Took off at supersonic speeds
and it at first the USS Princeton,

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which is a missile boat that was
looking for it, didn't see it on

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a t radar when it took off, and then it saw it at twenty

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four thousand feet It was near the
ocean, and all of a sudden it

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was at twenty four thousand feet over
in the area that Fravor was training in

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earlier in the day. So that
was kind of interesting and along those lines

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that people were questioning whether or not
it's a real document of course, we

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have favor's statement from Jeremy Corbel.
Of course, those of us that know

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Jeremy Corbel know that he's an honest
person, and that would be an accurate

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statement if Jeremy says so in my
opinion. However, Leslie Kane has tweeted

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that they saw the document when they
wrote their New York Times story, so

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she can verify it's legitimate. She
also feels, she said she when I

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contact her, sharesn't know who wrote
it. She can't say for sure,

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but she feels it was probably Bass. And then I asked Alizondo about it,

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and he said that he at the
time I talked to him hadn't seen

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the report from George's article, but
he had seen a military report on this.

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So the military report exists. And
he also says, you know,

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he believes George Napp to be a
very credible journalist, and if George Knapp

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says it's real, and his sources
are good sources, and he absolutely believes

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George Knapp. So yeah, it's
an amazing document that outlines this entire thing.

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But the other things what's interesting is
his speculation, which is kind of

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I mean, they go on to
say the disturbance in the water could have

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been an object under the water,
but there was a submarine that was part

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of their carrier group, and that
submarine said they did not detect anything on

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sonar, So the report says it
could have been nothing there. However,

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it also could have been a disturbance
on the water caused by the AAV that

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the AAV, or it could have
been an object underwater which somehow had some

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sort of underwater stealth, or it
could have been a stealth like an object

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that could not be seen by the
human eye, that the object somehow used

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stealth, which is not surprising for
maybe like a moof on report that someone

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would speculate something like that, but
for a document prepared for the military,

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that's quite shocking. Yeah, right, Well, they're basically just admitting that

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they have no idea what the technology
is. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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and that's why it's so important or
should be important to them, because this

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is demonstrating, like Alessander keep saying, you know, technology beyond their own.

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So yeah, very shocking document.
Eric Davis actually came on he got

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mad at Nick Pope. Essentially Nick
Pope was saying he wasn't doubting the report

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at all. He was saying that
you're right that he was agreeing that the

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report doesn't seem like, you know, written by a military. In fact,

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I think he was speculating, speculating
perhaps it was written by a you

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know, somebody contracted by the military. And he's right, But something that

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Pope said got Eric Davis upset.
And Eric Davis is an astrophysicist who has

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worked for BASS, and he said
he knows that people who wrote the report

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that it's absolutely legitimate, and that
he has written many reports for the military

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as a government contractor, and he
typically you are not told what format to

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write your report, so you just
take it upon yourself to write your report

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and whatever format you choose, and
they typically accept your report in your format.

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So it's not odd whatsoever that there's
no military markings on it or anything

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like that. The reports in the
format that it's in. So I feel,

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you know, it's really late to
rest whether or not this is a

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legitimate report. I think it definitely
is in that you know in the report

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that George and Nap did you know. He basically says that the meeting to

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view the document was arranged by Harry
Reid, and that gives it quite a

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bit of legitimate, you know,
legitimacy right there. Agreed, I totally

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agree, and so but you know, it's just kind of frustrating you get

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those. It's been kind of weird
with this whole thing. And I've experienced

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this ever since, you know,
especially ever since we gave Tom DeLong the

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award for Researcher of the Year because
he really had a large part in facilitating

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all of this. And in fact, there's a bunch of stories, including

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in the Washington Post this week,
regarding just that. So the Washington Repost

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wrote a story that UFOs are suddenly
a serious news story and you can thank

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the guy from Blink one eighty two
for that. That's an actual Washington Post

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story this week. So even though
I wrote essentially the same story for the

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Huffington Post in December, right after
all of this news came out, just

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essentially saying, how you know,
Tom DeLong facilitated all this happening. And

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Alexander did say that he was approached
by to the Stars to join to the

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Stars. So and to the Stars
wouldn't have existed if Tom DeLong wouldn't have

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put it together, and that's what
facilitated all of this happening. It's up.

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I've really seen anything really happening more
with to the Stars at this point

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have used, well, this is
all to the Stars. I mean,

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all of this is part of all
of that. I mean to the Stars.

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We don't know exactly what documents to
the Stars have, but it would

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make sense that they most likely have
similar access to what the New York Times

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had, So I think they're they're
definitely we haven't heard anything officially from them.

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They have been posting these stories,
many of these stories that are coming

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out, but and I'm not sure
what we'll hear officially. Yeah, I

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must be on the wrong mailing list
for them because I'm getting, you know,

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like promotionals, but I'm I'm not
seeing any stories, So I got

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to check that out. Yeah,
they're on their site, they're not really

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pushing them out. Tom DeLong is
tweeting them through to the Stars, So

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they're tweeting them, and they're kind
of posting them on their site, but

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they're not they're You're right, they're
being very subtle about all of this.

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And Tom has been very ever since
December, he's been definitely taking a back

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seat, and I've been very quiet
about all of this, and and I

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think it's been a good strategy because
you know, there has been less talk

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about some of the more wild things
he has said and more talk about the

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legitimacy of this project that he helped
reveal. Yeah, he was probably told

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to tone it down a little,
yeah, by the rest of the people

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on the team. Yeah. So
yeah, that's about all. We're almost

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out of time already. I saw
that. Yeah, so we better wrap

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it up. But yeah, really
really fun and interesting stuff going on right

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now. So as always, thanks
for joining us for the news, mister

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Martin Willis. Yes, always fun. Thank you, and we'll be right

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back after this break with John Alexander. For those of you listening to kg

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r R, you'll hear some commercials. Those of you listening to the podcast,

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we'll hear a short musical interlude,
and we will return shortly. Welcome

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back to Open minds UFO Radio.
I am at super excited, even more

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so than usual, I think,
although I talk about always getting too excited,

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but very excited to have John Alexander
joining me today. Thank you for

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joining me today. Oh glad to
be here. So the last time we

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talked, I think was just after
the news about the Advanced Aerospace Program the

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Pentagon program had come out, and
you and I had talked, and we

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talked with Nick Pope. But there's
been new developments and more coming out,

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which is very interesting because you're kind
of in the middle of all this because

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your association and friendship with Bigelow and
your participation in his National Institute of Discovery

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Sciences, which was his original group, and BASS. So there's this new

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revelation that that George nab had written
about and it's sort of starting to disseminate

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now into the mainstream media. I
think it's a lot to digest and that's

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where it's taking its time. But
that this whole program started as the Advanced

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Aerospace West Weapon System Applications Program,
and it's kind of what prompted BASS.

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You know, this department in big
Lower Aerospace that handles kind of the more

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fringe topics to be created. So
were you, I guess, aware of

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all of this. Frankly not until
very recently, and certainly not to the

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extent of it now, which is
not surprising because you know, I was

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on the board with move On,
I was a director or functional director with

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00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:11.000
move On when we began working with
Big Low and little did I know that

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the funding that you know, move
On was receiving was I would imagine it

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would have to be part of this
program as well. Yeah, I think

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there's more to come out now.
Part of it. I think that they

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were asking for T S. S
CI clearances, top secret and special compartment,

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which I happened to have, but
I was doing other things with Joint

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Special Operations University at the time.
Mm hmm. It's a bit ironic also

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that you you know, had with
your colleagues created you know, looked for

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kind of where kind of this this
sort of research was going on in the

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government, and it turns out you
became part of that research unwittingly that was

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funded by the government. Well,
I think by the government. Studied by

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the government is a topic that really
needs some discussion and clarification. As you

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know. This coming week we have
a conference for the SSE here in Las

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Vegas, and I'm going to be
giving a talk that really addresses that.

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My point will be that we did
the same thing about thirty years ago,

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and I was the one who did
run that and put it together. But

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the issue of the government that the
term is very hard to define. There

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are three branches of the government,
saw a note today. There's two million

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plus workers in the government, and
even within the Department of Defense. The

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UFO community seems to assume that if
something goes in to even a low level

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employee, somehow this percolates all the
way to the Secretary of Defense, which

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is just not true. They wrote. You know, in UFOSS Conspiracies and

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Realities, I mentioned that, you
know, people just don't understand how the

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government works. I just gave you
a figure of over two million people,

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like it's about two million, seven
hundred thousand. And if I believe that,

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and I believe what we know to
be true about the number of people

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who have seen UFOs, you would
come up from that number with at least

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two hundred and seventy thousand government employees
who had seen something that looks like a

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UFO. But as I have pointed
out that there is a difference between individual

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interests I saw something, I want
to do it, and institutional responsibility,

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meaning the individuals who are responsible for
an organization willing to put the resources out.

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And you know, the twinings just
don't meet that frequently. You know,

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there's another issue that has come up, and that would be interesting to

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get your take on, because contractors
then becomes an issue in that. You

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know, in one statement that George
knapp meet when it came to the NIMIT

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document that he recently shared that was
leaked to him, was that it was

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prepared by the military for the military. And I think some of the confusion

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is it appears that this was actually
a BASS document, but it was contracted

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by the military. And I've asked
actually Elizondo and others, and Eric Davis

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00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:12.200
actually kind of spoke to this on
Facebook. Does that constitute is a military

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00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:18.279
document? What would you take me
on that? No, that's a very

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00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:25.039
interesting thing, and I mean UFOs
are a minuscule piece of this. But

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00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:27.440
the point is, and when these
contracts go out and the way the FOY

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00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:34.160
or freedom information laws are written,
it has to be you know, information

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00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:41.400
that is owned by the government.
And what happens when you have contractors as

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00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:48.640
you do here, then they often
consider the information proprietary even though it was

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00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:55.160
contracted for and paid for by the
government. I think it's kind of a

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00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.400
shortfall on the law, but it
allows you to hide Hill the whole universe

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00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:08.000
of topics, and it just because
the contractor did a piece of work for

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00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:15.680
the government, that does not mean
that that information is necessarily to be subject

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00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:22.359
for you and therefore being made public
by the way. I think from a

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00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:27.039
political standpoint, that's something we ought
to work on because I think if the

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00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:31.480
government pays for it, it ought
to be public unless it's formally classified,

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right, And that that kind of
goes back to some of the difficulty with

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the prospect of getting more of these
documents out. You know, earlier you

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00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.559
and I had talked about there's probably
much you said, there's much more you

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00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.759
know that would come out in the
a tip or a swap or what you

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00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.920
know, all of this program,
and Alessando and others have said the same

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00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.839
thing. In fact, I've got
a he told me. This is the

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00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:07.160
phrase he used, is you ain't
seen nothing yet, baby, And but

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he seems very you know, even
in our interview with the UFO Congress,

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00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:16.519
I guess optimistic in that now that
people know this program existed, they should

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be able to do foyas to get
this information. But the people who have

358
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:24.759
done foyas are not getting any information. And for the reasons you just stated

359
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:31.160
may never get official documents to FOYA. Well, there's another aspect to FOYA

360
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too, and that is that you
don't put your sharpest knives in the drawer

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into Fourier programs. It is usually
an afterthought, very low level, and

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00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:49.200
it is not something as career enhancing, meaning that people are gee, I

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00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.960
want to be a FOYO officer.
You know this is where you get stuck.

364
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So you know there are people with
very little interest in getting that information

365
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:06.920
as opposed to researchers who want access
to it and probably should have access.

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00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:14.880
I think there's two issues that are
involved. You've mentioned an article that George

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00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.119
Knapp put out and it was great, and there is a document that came

368
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.199
out that has been published. Now
what's interesting it does not have a header

369
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:30.280
on it meaning who what organization had
it and released it or wrote it,

370
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:37.039
nor is it dated. And I
think those sorts of things would be of

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00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:42.480
great help. Now I have talked
to particular George and so others are working

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00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:46.119
on this and one of the major
problems that they have getting back to FOY

373
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is they interviewed a lot of people
and in so doing they guaranteed them an

374
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:00.760
anonymity. So the problem with anonymity
is that the real names were written into

375
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.280
the reports and somebody has to go
through and strike that out. And I'm

376
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.559
told that this is no small task, lots and lots of things that have

377
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:15.679
to be redacted. That does make
sense, So I mean, literally,

378
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.400
they just takes a long time to
get this stuff done. It will and

379
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.519
as I say, it's certainly not
going to be a very high priority item.

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00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:30.960
We've already seen, you know,
delays from the government even acknowledging that

381
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:36.360
these reports were valid, and you
know, who released the video and that

382
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:40.360
sort of thing. But one of
the things I think is critical here is

383
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:45.880
that from a government perspective, a
lot of this is risk reduction, meaning

384
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:52.320
don't want to be embarrassed, and
they feel this type of information basically from

385
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:59.800
an institutional perspective, is quite embarrassing. Right, So there's that issue,

386
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:05.880
and there's also kind of an issue
of misinterpretation. And I know you'd probably

387
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:09.360
have some thoughts on this, and
in that you know, these documents,

388
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:15.159
Alexando said he left because this situation, this was not being taken seriously enough,

389
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:20.800
and in fact, the things he's
describing I think are items you've described.

390
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:25.159
He's describing his interactions with other people
in the military very similar to the

391
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:30.519
way that you describe them in your
books and in your talks. However,

392
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:35.199
you know, you've got a large
part of like especially the UFO community,

393
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.480
saying, oh, look, this
is this is evidence of disclosure and they're

394
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.079
releasing a little bit of information.
You know, this is evidence that there's

395
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:47.519
a lot more there and all of
this. But actually in from giving Alessando's

396
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:51.599
words and what's in that NIMTZ document
where they said, you know, it

397
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.519
wasn't taken seriously. The reports weren't
taken seriously, and there's a high level

398
00:36:54.519 --> 00:37:00.599
of ridicule. That's not what really
all of this is showing. Well,

399
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:06.519
and one of the things when you
read the report about the pilots coming back

400
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:13.719
and being confronted by contemporaries wearing tinfoil
hats literally right, you know, and

401
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:17.639
obviously they had personal ridicule, and
that's one of the things that certainly of

402
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:25.679
concerned and all this has been and
then you have both the personal aspects of

403
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:31.639
that as well as institution. The
institutions do not want to be ridiculed,

404
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:37.000
and you know, tend to see
this as an extraneous issue. One of

405
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:44.440
the things I'm going to address in
the conference is I did some number crunching,

406
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:51.519
and my guess is that there are
at least six thousand what we call

407
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:57.239
flight grade officers and of those people
who have been admirals or general since the

408
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:04.360
end of Blue Book and the Content
Report. My point there is, again

409
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:10.840
we would have to estimate that probably
more than six hundred have seen UFOs or

410
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:16.360
something that they can't explain. So
my question then is not why is the

411
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:23.400
government doing this, but why isn't
this much more widespread since you have that

412
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:30.679
number of people who would have both
interest and access to the resources to do

413
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:37.719
it, and yet you find these
things rare and very low level, you

414
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:44.239
know handle, So it clearly is
not a front burner issue, as you

415
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:51.639
know anticipated by the quote UFO community
just do not understand the government. I

416
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:55.239
think that you bring up the great
point, and that's kind of part of

417
00:38:55.320 --> 00:39:00.639
the difference. So you talked to
you just mentioned there's probably people in the

418
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:06.320
government who have had these experiences,
certainly when it comes to Skinwalker. In

419
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:09.039
our past interviews, in fact,
one of my favorite statements that you use

420
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:16.840
is that you all kind of confronted
a precognitive sentient phenomena. Oh, I

421
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:22.440
think a lot of people in the
public kind of answer, or in uphology,

422
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.920
answer that question differently. So your
question is why aren't they looking into

423
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.159
it? And that was Elizondo's question
at all. So you all as insiders

424
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:35.599
are saying they have seen this stuff, but they're not doing anything about it,

425
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:40.639
and that's stupid, that's ridiculous,
whereas the public is kind of i'd

426
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:45.360
say the key issue though, it
is not career enhancing, right, meaning

427
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:51.519
you are not going to get promoted
or pushing the concept of let's go study

428
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:57.039
UFOs or any of the other phenomena
you might mention in transition, because we

429
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:02.360
also have familiar with the remote viewing
program, and the point there was you

430
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:08.079
had the same thing, You had
questions of can you do this at all?

431
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.880
But you also had a group and
some of them very influential, who

432
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.599
were very senior people, who said, yes, you can do that,

433
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:21.159
but it's the work of the double
and therefore we should not be involved.

434
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:27.360
That's an interesting point too, because
in George Knapp's story recently about you know,

435
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.360
the funding that was going to BASS, is that there were people in

436
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:37.880
the government who had the concern had
religious concerns about funding this program. Absolutely.

437
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:44.320
Now I think this or any related
program, you get into the personal

438
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:52.199
belief systems, right, And I
think what happened is that people kind of

439
00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:58.360
face this question, Okay, they've
discovered this, they've discovered that, they've

440
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:04.039
seen UFOs, they know that this
is a real phenomenon they meaning quote unquote

441
00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:07.119
government. And of course, like
you talked about, people are kind of

442
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.719
just seeing it as one big mass
somehow, so they do know all of

443
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.559
this stuff is going on, so
they must be there's no way they're not

444
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.239
looking into it. They must be
just doing this in secret. And there's

445
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:23.519
this vast you know, conspiracy where
all of this discovery is being done in

446
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:30.440
secret. I think that's what happens
is these people make that assumption. Well,

447
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.480
secrecy is an issue, and I've
spoken to that several times, and

448
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:42.519
it's overly applied, often to prevent
embarrassment, which is not a rational reason

449
00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:50.920
but an understandable one for you know, application of secrecy. Oh, these

450
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:57.000
there are people who again are interested
in want to get the information out,

451
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:04.960
but that is not necessarily why it's
spread. Right, And like you said,

452
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:08.119
unpopular that you said, I think
that's what a lejand was saying.

453
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:13.840
The problem, the fundamental problem.
And again my UFO book I talked about

454
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.400
this directly, is how the government
works. And by the way, it

455
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:23.440
is not unique to the civilian population
that don't understand this. This is something

456
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:30.320
that is true inside the government as
well. It is amazing how many little

457
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:35.360
war story but I was once a
Department of Army inspector general. My boss,

458
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.000
who was a three star, actually
had to create a month long course

459
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.719
where we took lieutenant colonels such as
my Sava went in as a lieutenant colonel

460
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:52.519
and you had to go to school
to learn just how the government works.

461
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:58.320
So here are people probably with an
average of fifteen to twenty years in the

462
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:04.280
government at you know, increasing the
higher levels, that has no basic concept

463
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:12.280
of how the all functions. It's
very complex, right, So how did

464
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:19.079
you feel with the discovery of the
news you know, that story, learning

465
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:22.199
very recently about defending that was going
into the what you all were doing.

466
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:30.480
I'm not quite tracking that feel about
which now, So how did you feel

467
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.119
when you found out that, you
know, your skin Walker investigations, for

468
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:38.639
example, were you know, part
of this funding that that Harry Reid hadn't

469
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.440
been able to acquire for this advanced
Serospace Weapon System Applications program. Yeah,

470
00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:52.000
well, there in lies part of
the problem is they were extrapolating as to

471
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:58.719
what's the appropriate application. I have
article that will be coming out following week

472
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.639
as a matter of fact, Edge
Science that addresses a lot of this.

473
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:13.920
The Yeah, there is no Department
of Good Ideas since anywhere in the government,

474
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:20.519
and so anybody who's doing these sorts
of things have got to attribute them

475
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:29.119
to the institutional responsibility of that organization. Department of Defense deals with threats,

476
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:35.119
and hence, you know when they
did it, they called it a threat.

477
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:39.000
In fairness, I did exactly the
same thing thirty years ago when I

478
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:44.920
was looking for funding, and the
issue was it's got to be a threat.

479
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:50.079
And again getting back to how the
government works. Once you have issue,

480
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:54.360
the money comes from is appropriated from
Congress, and you have to have

481
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:59.480
both an appropriations bill, which is
the money can be spent, and an

482
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:04.760
author of zation bill, which is
separate from another group of Congress people.

483
00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:08.480
It said, yay, verily,
you can now actually spend the money.

484
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:15.079
So again, terribly complex. One
of the things that can happen is when

485
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:21.840
you're at relatively low levels and I'm
not talking about low levels from our personal

486
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.320
bank account here, so you're talking
you know, three, four or five

487
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:32.159
million dollars a year. You can
probably hide that pretty well, but it

488
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:38.440
is a zero sum game. And
that what happens is that even in the

489
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:45.280
black world there everything is tossed up
in the air and there are all those

490
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:50.239
people quote looking for money. That
was one of my favorite things that I

491
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:53.519
was in the building, pentygonten people
that I'm looking for money and a little

492
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:58.360
money doesn't grow on trees or it's
not hidden in pots in the corner.

493
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:04.360
What it means is you're going to
raise somebody else's program. And these sorts

494
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:08.760
of issues, be it remote viewing
or UFOs or anything that sounds like that,

495
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:15.920
are just eminently attackable. And and
that is from what I understand,

496
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:22.880
what happened to Amulaunder's program is that
people did come and actually siphon off the

497
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:27.880
money, saying, you know,
here's what the congressional language says. What

498
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.079
we're doing fits with that description.
Therefore, I want your money. I

499
00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:40.800
see, So I guess getting back, did you have any That's all really

500
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:45.760
helpful. But I'm wondering if you
had, like any emotional reaction, like

501
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.920
if you felt I guess just how
you felt. I mean it, I

502
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:55.480
would imagine that it would feel kind
of strange to know that you know,

503
00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:04.000
the this projects you you are working
on that you probably assumed we're just completely

504
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.199
funded by Bigelow. Also we had
money coming from the Department of Defense.

505
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:16.679
Well, it's always interesting, as
you've heard me describe and I will again,

506
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:22.639
is that whatever we're dealing with is
at least as complex as AIDS or

507
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:28.559
cancer or those sorts of things.
And I do think we need to have

508
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:34.960
an integrated response if we're going to
even get to first base. As you've

509
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.599
heard me say before, I don't
think we're at the point of asking the

510
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:44.559
right questions. Do I have an
emotional involvement, And I mean, I'm

511
00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:49.559
certainly curious, but glad to see
that things are working out. As you

512
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:54.519
saw my more recent book. You
know, we've had interactions with various phenomena

513
00:47:55.239 --> 00:48:05.039
all over the world, so this
stuff is ubiquitous and complex and perplexing.

514
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:07.840
One of the issues again in the
article I wrote to you, is that

515
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:15.239
you know, it just doesn't follow
our basic rules of what science should do,

516
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:22.599
and many of the things that we
observe present conundrums and paradoxes, and

517
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:28.280
that was certainly true at the ranch. We've got to go to break right

518
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.039
now, so we will be right
back and we'll continue on this and talk

519
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:36.760
more about the SSE. But I'm
talking to John Alexander. You're listening to

520
00:48:36.800 --> 00:49:40.239
Open Mind GFO Radio, and we'll
be right back after this short break.

521
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:15.440
We are back. You're listening to
Open Mind's UFO Radio. I'm your host,

522
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:21.400
Alejandro Rojas, and we've got John
Alexander with us here talking about some

523
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:25.119
of this new revelations around the Department
of Defense. And I think, you

524
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:30.800
know, what you offer is unique
because I don't think like you talked about,

525
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.440
you know, even some of the
lieutenant colonels had to go through a

526
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:39.360
class on how the government runs.
And that's what it's great that you.

527
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:44.599
I think most people don't feel like
they want to waste their time describing this

528
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:50.440
sort of thing to certain populations,
especially people interested in UFOs, and so

529
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:57.320
I think we have a unique opportunity
with you willing to educate people on all

530
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:02.920
of this. Well, let's say
they're very complex. Let me address some

531
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:07.039
of the things that have popped in
in the report that George mentioned. I

532
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:10.360
might mention I did an interview with
in just a couple of days ago,

533
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:17.840
has not yet aired, But the
point was that he is gettinghemly attacked by

534
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:22.920
the quote UFO crowd and they look
at the tic TAC video and people said,

535
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:28.920
always just a balloon. It's just
that, And it's interesting how they

536
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:37.400
isolate the information. The video is
interesting, but when one understands that it

537
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:44.679
was corroborated by three of the most
sophisticated radar systems that we have, as

538
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:51.880
well as the personal observation of the
pilots that were flying and captured it on

539
00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:55.719
film. So when you look at
the totality of the evidence, it just

540
00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:04.000
does not respond to any of these
strange, you know, correlations. People

541
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.599
are always just say, you don't
pick your thing. That's a great point.

542
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.159
Even the pilot who captured that video
says, I don't know if this

543
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.159
is, you know, the same
thing that Favor and others had seen during

544
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:22.559
the real kind of big event that
occurred earlier in the day. It was

545
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.920
it was a short video that of
an object they caught on radar for a

546
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:30.880
short period of time. So the
video itself is not the end all be

547
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:36.199
all, of course, it's it's
the only amount of kind of physical evidence

548
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.440
of but it's not necessarily what they
saw. And what they saw was captured,

549
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:44.719
like you said, on radar,
witnessed by many of the pilots,

550
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:50.000
and that's the actual event that that
video is not even a part of.

551
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:53.239
And it is weird, you're right, but you get this also, you

552
00:52:53.360 --> 00:53:01.039
get at the point is that you
have multisensory data, multiple sources, hard

553
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:07.320
data. You're not relying on the
personal observation of individual You're not relying on

554
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:14.239
just the accuracy of the video itself. And yet the skeptics, and many

555
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:21.079
of them here, like the UFO
community itself, skeptics tend to go put

556
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.599
it for that reason. And as
George has said, he even have people

557
00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:30.360
saying, oh, you just made
up the whole thing, just not true.

558
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:35.000
It is interesting, you know how
this information came out, because you

559
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:42.239
know, some of this was actually
published in aviation magazines by the pilots themselves,

560
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:50.119
not picked up on by the UFO
community. Yeah, I think it

561
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:54.639
was a note I know myself and
too mothers had found it and posted it.

562
00:53:54.639 --> 00:54:00.440
It was a very interesting but you
know, putting all the pieces together

563
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:05.079
is what's been difficult. And that's
another interesting aspect is that you know,

564
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:09.400
these guys, obviously in the document
itself faced a lot of ridicule, and

565
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:15.480
there was one pilot who said the
guy who captured that Fleer video said he

566
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:21.480
did not release the video to the
intelligence officers when asked, he kept it

567
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:28.880
and I would assume that he gave
it to somebody or someone. Then we

568
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:32.199
could leak that video years ago,
because that video did get out to the

569
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:38.280
Internet prior to the New York Times
story which showed the actual you know,

570
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.719
the video that we can track back
to the Department of Defense in Alzando's group.

571
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:52.880
But it's a complicated story where people
it's just very complicated story. So

572
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:59.119
one of the issues I point to
that that I have seen is one a

573
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:06.119
contrary to the UFO community, they
specifically said they were not required to sign

574
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:12.920
non disclosure agreements or form the secrecy
on it, which is a good point

575
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:16.039
to what you're saying and what the
document says. They didn't take it seriously.

576
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:21.320
They didn't. It wasn't Oh,
this needs to go to the Majestic

577
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:25.039
twelve and everything needs to be secret. We need to maybe take out these

578
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:31.239
pilots and witnesses like X files or
something. It was a well, as

579
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:38.639
we understand it, that Altho Alessandro
had had personal encounters with the Secretary of

580
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:49.119
Defense. That secretary didn't really learn
about the release until maybe hours two minutes

581
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:53.039
before the New York Times actually posted
that article. So this stuff does not

582
00:55:53.280 --> 00:56:00.800
flow uphill as the UFO community believes. So the SSSE, I mean,

583
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:07.079
I think what you've described here,
we had Bigelow doing his best to put

584
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:13.800
together a group of people to investigate
this phenomena. But of course you all

585
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:17.320
struggled with that. It was difficult
because it was a as you described,

586
00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.960
it kind of was very enigmatic,
and it seemed like it knew what you

587
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:28.320
were going to do before you did
it. So you are speaking and this

588
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:35.159
is fascinating with this organization called the
SSE, the scientific Maybe you could describe

589
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:42.559
who and what the SSE is well
as the Society for Scientific Exploration. This

590
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:50.039
is the thirty seventh annual conference has
been around that long. We're also meeting

591
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:54.639
with IRVA, the International Remote Viewing
Association, so it's a joint session.

592
00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:00.960
But SSSE was formed by some very
very very senior sciences. We're going to

593
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:10.639
pay tribute to Robert John at this
last year, and Bob was the professor

594
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.719
and the head of the Department of
Engineering at Princeton, so the people that

595
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:22.159
formed this another Peter Sturrock will be
there. He is one of the premier

596
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:30.679
people in high power microwave research.
Again very senior people who said we're willing

597
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:36.440
to go wherever the data go,
but we ought to have open minds about

598
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:40.079
this. I might mention that Peter
wrote a book called a Tale of Two

599
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:45.960
Sciences, and one he talked about
what he had done with high powered microwaves

600
00:57:46.039 --> 00:57:52.719
and how that data were received,
and then the other when he tried to

601
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:59.039
introduce UFOs, he actually wrote a
book called the UFO with Nigma, based

602
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:05.079
on a conference again high level scientists, and how the reaction of the two

603
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:15.519
sciences with the equally competing compelling data
just received totally differently with this scientific organization.

604
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:21.400
I mean, do you feel that
is a better arena for the investigation

605
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:24.559
of this. I mean does the
government even need to be involved? And

606
00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:30.360
if so, I mean, should
they be working with at a university or

607
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:36.559
some other science based organization. Well, I guess you should come and hear

608
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:42.199
my talk. I am going to
address that issue, and that is I

609
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:46.519
guess now I've evolved on this,
is that this is not in the government

610
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:52.519
domain. It just does not mean
that they should necessarily have some aspects to

611
00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:59.599
what the government does bring a particularly
Department of Defense, or some very advanced

612
00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:04.639
sense systems and the way to collect
data. And that's certainly true in satellite

613
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:10.000
and all the avionic systems that are
out there. They do bring some brain

614
00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:19.320
power. We have the government labs
and that that can do adequate analysis should

615
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:24.400
they so choose. But as you've
heard me say many times, I think

616
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:32.480
that these are interrelated phenomena. And
it certainly doesn't stop start with UFOs,

617
00:59:32.559 --> 00:59:37.760
but you have continuation of consciousness,
life after death, remote viewing, psychokinesis,

618
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:43.599
et cetera, et cetera. And
I think they're all interrelated. And

619
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:51.239
I don't think that we have any
expectation that the government would be the premiere

620
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:58.159
lead agency in studying any of those
phenomena. So I do think, and

621
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.320
one of the things I'm going to
call for is that what we should develop

622
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:10.000
is something like the Human Genome Project, where you had a number of countries

623
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:16.719
involved, numbers of universities, and
most importantly data sharing. And the problem

624
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:23.559
with government research is that you tend
not to get the shared except outside of

625
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:30.400
very small circles. What and you
know, it almost seems like another danger

626
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.239
of that actually this issue being taken
more seriously, like by the military.

627
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:38.760
So for example, the Nimits case
actually triggering oh you know, maybe there

628
01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:44.519
is something here, it might actually
then trigger more secrecy. I mean,

629
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:47.760
if it was taken seriously and this
is a possible, you know, an

630
01:00:49.239 --> 01:00:57.840
unknown object of advanced nature, then
perhaps it would be necessary that to classify

631
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:04.519
it because it does perhaps demonstrate a
threat that would need to be examined and

632
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:10.639
understood, and that information probably then
should not be shared. Oh that's one

633
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:17.519
aspect that the other is everything you
don't understand does not constitute a threat.

634
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:25.159
And right, and Alexander kind of
speaks to this. And as soon as

635
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:30.400
Nick Pope and and you kind of
mentioned it earlier, at least when the

636
01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:35.880
Department of Defense is justifying funding,
they have to classify it as a threat.

637
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:39.599
But do you believe it it would
be it's important for the military to

638
01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:47.400
classify the unknown as a threat.
Frankly our potential. No Oka in general,

639
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:54.800
no often do. But again we
do not like to have things we

640
01:01:54.920 --> 01:02:01.440
don't understand or get questioned about things
you don't understand, And in some aspects

641
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:08.159
it's just easier to classify it.
I was involved in the study back at

642
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:15.719
the beginning of the Global War on
Terror two thousand and two timeframe, at

643
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:22.760
sitting in meetings at the Office of
the Secretary of Defense, a joint staff,

644
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:28.039
and I was reading things and they
were classified, and I'm going,

645
01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:32.800
what is classified about this? If
this is classified the New York Times was

646
01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:37.559
to be top secret, and why
do you do this? And the answer

647
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.559
was it's easier to classify everything to
figure out, you know, what we

648
01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:47.119
need to protect, which is a
horrible answer and terribly expensive, but one

649
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:57.239
that's often employed. And these are
concerned for the scientists and the type of

650
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:04.320
people you have at SSE, in
particular yourself because of your background in defense

651
01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:08.119
and your association. I guess with
you know Bigelow in these projects. But

652
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:15.119
this topic, or at least this
Bigelow project is a lot is going to

653
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:21.079
be a part of your event next
week in that you're actually doing a tour

654
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:27.199
to big Yellow Aerospace and is Bigelow
Aerospace going to show you? I mean,

655
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:30.239
do you know what the agenda is? Is it going to be beyond

656
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:37.599
just them showing you what they're doing
in space and more along what BASS is

657
01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:43.239
looking into. No, we're not
going on the UFO tour on it,

658
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:49.840
and will say that what they have
done just in the regular space aspects is

659
01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:57.119
absolutely phenomenal and making huge leaps.
We were always amazed and watching Bob work

660
01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:03.159
you know, warp speak compared to
what NASA is doing. So that's what

661
01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:08.360
it's going to be. A better
warn folks that tour sold out. We're

662
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:14.840
not accepting any anymore people for that
all that they can walk in to the

663
01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:21.559
conference. Now. It's like I
said, I think there's a need to

664
01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:27.880
share data and get it into the
public domain. What we're dealing with is

665
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:34.920
so complex that you're not going to
get it without a coordinated effort and sharing

666
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:43.280
of data. Hence looking at it
like Human Genome Project. So another person

667
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:46.840
at the SEC who is of interest
in all of this very much so,

668
01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:53.119
is how put up? In fact, did you read the recent New York

669
01:04:53.280 --> 01:05:00.000
or Newsweek article? Yes, and
they essentially kind of tried to frame how

670
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:04.679
put of its kind of a goofy, kind of fringe non credible person,

671
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:11.840
right, I mean, do you
what is your take on that? Well,

672
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:15.400
it's terrible. It is highly credible
when you get into zero point energy.

673
01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:24.039
He wrote the premier documents that appeared
in Fiz Rev and FIZZ Letters,

674
01:05:24.119 --> 01:05:32.880
which are you know, the premier
document's highest standards in the field of physics.

675
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:41.280
Of course he has a remote viewing
aspect. They did at SRI and

676
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:46.360
I think this is part of the
problem that you see with us the word

677
01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:51.360
mainstream media, but the media as
well as the government who always have to

678
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:58.679
have snide remarks. There was an
article I just saw. It was carried

679
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:03.559
on Drudge but from and Stripes of
all things, and they also took kind

680
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:10.199
of a sideway shot. I might
mention that Hell is going to get the

681
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:15.360
Dinsdale Award, which is a biannual
award that is put out by the SSE

682
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:20.559
four people who have done premiere research. It's kind of like a if you

683
01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:28.039
will, but highly credible. I
might mention he was involved with the study

684
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:32.199
that I did thirty years ago.
He was doing key work with the Big

685
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:41.239
Low and the Dea study, and
now with to the Stars private organization as

686
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:45.760
well. I think he's the lead
scientist there. And what is this sense?

687
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:50.559
Is there a kind of a sense
of excitement within the SSE with these

688
01:06:50.599 --> 01:07:00.559
new revelations, perhaps even a sense
of vindication. I think it's a step

689
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:06.039
too far. Certain people who are
interest I might mention that the SS is

690
01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:12.960
actually just that scientific exploration on a
very broad front. There are people who

691
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:21.000
are interested in many different phenomenons,
certainly consciousness as a key piece of that.

692
01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:28.159
Then you've got some of their true
skeptics as opposed to the bunkers,

693
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:32.119
if you will, man. But
they come in looking for you know,

694
01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:40.599
hard data as opposed to just opinion
and neat stories about stuff that happened.

695
01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:45.840
Yeah, I mean one of the
interesting aspects. Another you know, this

696
01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:49.960
will probably be the last time we'll
have or last thing we'll have time to

697
01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:56.400
touch on. Is this statement from
the senior manager, the best senior manager

698
01:07:56.480 --> 01:08:02.719
that Careless also released And it doesn't
say who this person is, but this

699
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:11.480
idea of using humans kind of their
interaction, but using the human body as

700
01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:16.960
a readout system for what it callsed
UFO effects. But I get the sentiment,

701
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:20.760
and you can let me know what
you think you're closer to this that

702
01:08:20.800 --> 01:08:28.640
they use that term UFO to kind
of represent the entire paranormal kind of genre,

703
01:08:28.800 --> 01:08:34.319
at least aspect of what you are
we're looking at. Well, yeah,

704
01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:40.840
that's not a simple it might sound. Again, you get back to

705
01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:45.560
if you have a fund to project, which they did, you have to

706
01:08:45.560 --> 01:08:53.159
stay within certain operational parameters to justify
the application of funds. I do think

707
01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:59.760
that the people are involved, and
certainly the ones who had personal experiences with

708
01:09:00.119 --> 01:09:05.119
say that again, this is complex
and that you do have human sensor systems.

709
01:09:06.520 --> 01:09:11.960
From a legal perspective, you'd have
to be very careful with that terminology

710
01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:17.600
because of protocols in human use things. You said you're using as a sensor

711
01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:28.560
to attract bad things that would probably
not fly by the scientific review boards human

712
01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:32.640
use boards. Is that what's that
part of it? Trying to use the

713
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:40.159
humans as a magnet for a phenomena. Well, we know that again,

714
01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:45.039
you have individuals who seem to be
more susceptible than others. We talked about,

715
01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:51.319
you know, the infamous Skinwalker ranch. I was up there many times

716
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:59.199
and I can't say I had any
you know, anomalous experience myself, although

717
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:04.199
I think they did occur, and
you bumped that against what you know is

718
01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:12.159
Eric Davis, who certainly reported sensing
things that others of us did not.

719
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:18.960
Fascinating stuff. So there's a lot
of information here and a lot too unpacked.

720
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:21.880
So I know we've kind of we
have been all over the place,

721
01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:28.039
and I don't know, it makes
my mind's been getting into all of this

722
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:32.520
because there's just so many branches and
so much it's just so complicated. So

723
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:36.640
thank you for judging through all of
this, and I mean this has been

724
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:43.560
extremely insightful. So thank you for
joining us again on the show. Okay,

725
01:10:43.680 --> 01:10:46.239
thank you all home rule yep.
I hope you all have a successful

726
01:10:46.279 --> 01:10:51.399
conference and you are actually hosting it, are you the MC, Well not

727
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:56.600
the MC, but I am the
local host. Okay, great, well

728
01:10:56.600 --> 01:11:00.119
that's wonderful. So I hope you
have a great conference. And I'm sure

729
01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:03.960
many of my listeners wish to know
they would have could be there, and

730
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:09.840
some of them will be great,
that's true, some will. Thank you

731
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:14.359
so much to John Alexander for joining
us today. What a great interview.

732
01:11:14.640 --> 01:11:18.159
It's you know, my mind is
boggled, just there's so much to all

733
01:11:18.239 --> 01:11:24.119
of this so much to the Skinwalker
Ranch case, so much to everything that's

734
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:28.720
going on. What we're learning about, how this whole Pentagon project happened,

735
01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:32.960
how the Skinwalker Ranch is a part
of that, and all of these other

736
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:36.640
fats. It's how the government works, why things happen the way they do.

737
01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:41.319
And John Alexander is of course right
in the middle of all of this.

738
01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:45.439
He has spent you know, a
career in Army intelligence working also at

739
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:51.520
Los Alamos Laboratories, and he's kind
of had a career working in these arenas

740
01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:55.159
and also with all of these people. He's been close to Big Low,

741
01:11:55.479 --> 01:12:00.479
he's been part of the National Institute
of Discovery Sciences in these up until you

742
01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:05.359
know, the more recent investigations.
So he is right in the middle and

743
01:12:05.439 --> 01:12:13.079
an important person to uh to get
insight from. He there's very few that

744
01:12:13.319 --> 01:12:17.720
have that level of inside knowledge that
he does, so uh and there's so

745
01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:21.640
many Haven news to go down and
that you know, you can probably hear

746
01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:26.560
it. My brain was kind of
cranking along and and kind of taking these

747
01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:30.720
left and right turns almost like these
alleged tic tac UFOs do and uh,

748
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:34.319
and there's we'll be unpacking a lot
of this for a long time, and

749
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:38.560
you know, I keep hearing.
I've heard from Elizondo himself. He said

750
01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:43.239
to me recently that I ain't seen
nothing yet, baby. So I guess

751
01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:47.880
there's a lot more coming, very
very exciting times for people in this field.

752
01:12:49.039 --> 01:12:55.119
That reminds me. Do check out
Den of Geek. I do have

753
01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:59.119
an article up on the Nimitz case, and I will have some more articles

754
01:12:59.159 --> 01:13:02.159
coming out about this to kind of
unpack it all and put it all out

755
01:13:02.199 --> 01:13:06.680
there and hopefully explain it in a
way that it's more digestible to just their

756
01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:11.239
regular person. So do check out
the SSE if you're in Las Vegas,

757
01:13:11.239 --> 01:13:14.960
an excellent organization is going to be
really important. A lot of the scientists

758
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:16.880
tied to this will be there.
Of course, Alexander and help put Of

759
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:23.079
himself will also be there. The
Biglow tour is sold out, it sounds

760
01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:25.840
like, but there's still a lot
more going on, so check that out.

761
01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:30.479
Also, get John Alexander's book.
I think it's a very important book.

762
01:13:30.520 --> 01:13:33.640
You can find that at his website. Just google John B. Alexander

763
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:36.760
b as a Boy John B.
Alexander and you'll find him. We also

764
01:13:36.760 --> 01:13:43.159
will have links to both the SSE
and John's website at the note for the

765
01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:46.720
show. Otherwise, do check out
the UFO Congress website. There's new stuff

766
01:13:46.720 --> 01:13:49.600
all the time, new videos that
are posted, and a ton of new

767
01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:54.760
T shirts. Is super cool t
shirts we had this year. Now they

768
01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:58.000
are posted on the store so you
can purchase them. You're going to love

769
01:13:58.039 --> 01:14:00.479
them, so do check out the
store. Otherwise. That is it.

770
01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:04.319
Thank you to Caleb Hanks for the
opening and close music. Thank you to

771
01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:09.520
Martin Willis for joining us with the
news. Thank you for Systematics for the

772
01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:13.720
bumper music, and thank you to
you the listener. Until next time,

773
01:14:13.840 --> 01:15:00.399
Audio Smooth, Tatos Moss