WEBVTT

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Few Chili effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot com and listeners like you,

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Yeah Yeahted in a media second of
April twenty twenty four, allegedly,

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according to that thing we call a
calendar, this the o'celly effect. You

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hearing us somewhere in time, probably
possibly most likely via the podcast, but

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we are live at Ocelli dot com
radio and on your final slab of choice,

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your applicable application through various radio apps. So here it is Thursday.

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Now. It's odd that I have
Mike Swanson right back on the following week,

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because he's usually every other Thursday now, But Mike Swanson is back with

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us, and why well, he's
joining Carmine Sabastano, and we're gonna have

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a three way conversation here regarding something
that does come up in the JFK assassination

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community as well, although we're not
going to focus really on the Kennedy assassination

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tonight. Instead, we're gonna be
talking about the murder, you know,

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those untimely deaths. Why it has
somebody died, why it is somebody got

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killed at a convenient time, et
cetera, et cetera. We're going to

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focus on one of the names that
always comes up on that list, and

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I do mean always sam Gy and
Kanna, that's right, the guy who's

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always described as the godfather of New
Orleans, the godfather of the entire South.

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Some people try to make it sound
like he's the guy running everything.

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Oh excuse me, Chicago, right, Sorry, sorry, I stepped over

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there. I stepped over into Marcello
territory there accidentally. But gan Conna comes

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up and he's Chicago. Of course, Marcello is the guy from New Orleans.

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But anyway, point is that people
make statements like that and mix things

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up and present it as fact.
And they want to tell you that sam

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Gy and Kanna, you know,
exactly, die of natural causes, which

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is true. But a lot of
people say that that was because he might

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have spilled the beans regarding the mafia's
connection to the Kennedy assassination. And they'll

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put him, Marcello and Trapicante into
that box and say, look, here's

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three guys. They ran stuff,
and they were running stuff, and if

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anybody was responsible, it's these three
guys. And oops, some people turned

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up dead. Now, Trapacante didn't
turn up dead for a long time.

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Yeah, something worth noting yes,
definitely something worth noting. And you know

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Marcello, well, that's an interesting
thing because the battle with the Kennedys in

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general, the problem where he gets
deported to what was the Guatemala yep,

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you know, warring with the RFK
as the attorney general and the crackdown on

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the mob and oops, they wanted
to get their casinos back, like I

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said, and all of a sudden, it's a totally convoluted discussion. Anyway,

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we're going to talk about mister g
and Connor tonight and the circumstances surrounding

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his death. And Carmine has some
information that will be brand new to most

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listeners. I'm certain of that.
Anyway, Before we go there, Mike

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Swanson Wallstreet Window dot Com, of
course, being the no go to Wallstreet

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Window dot Com, the author of
the War State as well as Why the

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Vietnam War and a bunch of other
books. But those are the two that

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I highly recommend. Mike. First, how you doing tonight? I'm looking

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forward to this discussion that you and
I are not actually the featured presenter here,

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but along for the ride. How
you doing tonight, Mike? I'm

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doing good. Yeah. Carmon's really
dug up some interesting new information, There's

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no doubt about it. And these
deaths that occurred, the g and Connor

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murder, it really shook people up
when had happened that we're into the Kennedy

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assassination back then and congressional investigators and
so forth. Because of the timing of

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it. Yeah. Coincidentally, I
happen to have, you know, the

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YouTube shuffle on and May Brussels shows
came up on my YouTube shuffle, and

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uh, just so happened. She
was talking about the different Uh well,

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she would just say mobsters directly,
and that was usually her term. Uh,

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you know, mobsters and Nazis and
uh whatever, Oh my May Brussels

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show, thank you, good night, ladies and gentlemen. Uh. Constantly

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with the Nazis, constantly with the
mobsters. And I'm not saying May Brussell

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was entirely wrong, but it just
so happens. She was talking about this

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at a certain point, and I
found it interesting, Uh how somebody who

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you know, was using open source
stuff to do their research, was putting

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pieces together and trying to assemble a
puzzle. And later on the way that

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a lot of people who claim that
you know, the mafia is certainly a

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key player in the murder of John
F. Kennedy. They don't have evidence

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to tie them to it. Usually
they have lots of suspicion. They've got

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lots of likely suspects and all that, but lots of names come up,

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and of course, gee, mob
guy's turning up dead. Surprised, aren't

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you? Uh? Anyway, it's
a funny thing, kind of parcel of

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the mafia deal. It possibility you
could the course of events. Lifespans are

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not long if you sign on just
saying I mean, it's just like you

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mentioned, he is a white whale
in the mafia community to live to natural

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causes death. Yeah, a guy
who was Yeah, a guy who was

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around long enough to uh be tied
to indeed, yes, uh, you

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know, some interesting intrigues during the
Kennedy administration. But then, of course

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he's also around long enough to uh
be on the same boat when the PI

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agents, the undercover FBI agents decided
to use the same boat that was used

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in the abscam sting h and Donnie
Brasco is doing his thing. Traypicconte gets

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on the boat that the abscam guys
got on that they used the FBI used

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the same boat. That's a true
story, and I always find that funny

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in the movie Donnie Brasco. But
Carmine, you know what I'm referring to

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here, that's a pretty long line
as far as being around and being a

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powerful guy in the underworld to serve
not a lot of old time Besides him,

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I'd say a Cardo and a couple
others, Well, they'll live on

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as advisors or as bosses for longer
a bunt the time we'll regain the position

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of boss. But it's you don't
see a lot of them make it to

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their fifty sixties and seventies. Yeah, I mean, outside of that,

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there's some guys who never make the
headlines, who stay in you know,

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say hero and trafficking for thirty forty
years, But it's because they never made

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the headlines, you know. Yeah, and jen Conna was definitely one that

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made the headlines and got the attention
of the DOJ early in the fifties from

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how brazy he was, how I
mean, he did things in my opinion

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that were impressive as far as you
know who he was going up again,

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So it's Sam Jenkanna versus the FBI
and I actually read one file where they

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had to do a survey on the
over one hundred fake aliases he had used

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to try to put all these people
together as being the same person. Well,

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okay, fair enough, Yeah,
Mike, go ahead. Oh I'm

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just said, goodness, it's all
yeah, No, it's Look, it

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gets elaborate sometimes when you when you
have to get deep into things, it

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gets kind of elaborate. Okay.
Anyway, Carmie, So where should we

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begin? I think we should almost
begin with the murder itself, right,

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the shocking news that comes out.
When did that happen? When did he

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die? Let's begin there and talk
about how people ran with it for a

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moment before you get into I don't
know the facts and sure, well,

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yeah we can do that, and
then I'll try to do a little biographic

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material on him, and then yeah, we get into the deeper parts of

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the murder and some of the new
evidence. Right, So let's begin with

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the murder. Right, this happened
when exactly. I'm sure you have the

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notes in front of you. June
nineteenth, nineteen seventy five. He was

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shot to death in the basement was
an Oak Park, Illinois home by an

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unknown killer. And that's another interesting
thing. As much as there have been

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people and organizations like the CIA blamed
for this death, it's unsolved. Right,

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It's still officially unsolved. And next
year is the fiftieth year it would

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be unsolved. So there you have
it. But he's okay now. At

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the time of his death, what
would you say his position in the world

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was okay? Exactly? Well,
according to from what I've read about him,

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and as I discussed with you,
from some of the sources and the

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not only the documentary sources, but
some of the biographic sources I've had a

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chance to speak with, he was
living in a nice home in Oak Park.

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He was still exercising control over some
illegal operations, but he was not

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the boss. The boss at the
time was being advised by Tonia Cardo and

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in essence was a Cardo, but
Joey Upa was being primed to become the

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boss. Now Tonia Cardo'll go into
a little bit later. But he was

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Giencana's mentor. He was the guy
back in the Capone gang that rose up

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and basically when he rose, gien
Conna rose with him. And eventually when

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he quote unquote retired, gien Conna
became boss. So at that time in

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seventy five, he's you know,
he doesn't really have he's kind of as

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we'll learn later the States in some
of the files, he's a threat basically

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because he's an old boss who no
one can really control or exercise authority over.

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Because he was a boss, no
one wanted to confront him because they

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knew that he wouldn't back down,
right. But at the same time,

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he doesn't have any official power,
but he still has, you know,

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like a mafia bodyguard. He still
has people. He's still operating rackets.

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He's he's involved, but he's sort
of I don't know if you could say

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he was independent of them, but
it was he was in a sort of

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intermediate position. Right now, Here's
the interesting part about that they have.

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If you have longevity in that business, right that means that you have some

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very deep loyalties with people that have
solidly made money with you, if they

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haven't gone to prison and hadn't been
you know, busted out one way or

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another. Those are some loyal people
that are usually there if they've been with

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you over the long haul. And
this is the kind of thing that he

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had is that sort of loyalty that
was outside of just this is the boss,

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this is the structure, this is
the guy who you got to kick

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up to. It went well beyond
that, because he had for years had

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developed relationships with people in a lot
of places, not just in the you

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know, the mafia proper, let's
say, but all across the criminal underworld.

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And indeed he had you know,
had to have obviously run across people

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in certain government agencies and things like
this, not saying that he was,

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you know, a collaborator with government
agencies per se, but who knows.

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But the thing is, these people
now know him, they know what his

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behaviors are like, they're they're used
to him, and he's had a long

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standing position, right, So that's
a little bit different than somebody who's like,

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you know, on the rise,
who's out there, you know,

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needing to prove something, having to
hold onto a position of power, having

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to their way through things, their
politics are done. They just have now

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the establishment of their own personal network, not necessarily based solely on the supposed

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or alleged proper structure of LaCOSA nostra. It goes well beyond that. Now,

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would you say that's an accurate statement. Yeah. And what is I

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think notable too that will come to
see as we discuss it more is it's

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not wholly proven, but it appears
to me at least to be a possibility

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that if you look at the manner
in which people were dying, instead of

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it being connected to the Kennedy case, I think that certain mafia figures died

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because they were connected to Jinkanna and
they were loyalists. Well, but I

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think was that the case, right, Johnny Rosselli, Well, Johnny rozsell

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I think the possibilities as far as
that goes, would be Richard Kine who

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was killed in seventy three, Johnny
Rosselli who was killed in seventy six,

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and Charles Nicoletti who was killed in
seventy seven less than six months after Rizzelle,

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or roughly over six months. But
all four of those men served GenCon

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in a close personal capacity. Roselli
was his fixer, He set up all

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of his stuff in Las Vegas.
They had state friends, and they worked

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together on the Castro plots. Right
now, I don't think that that has

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anything to do but that's just one
of the many things they did together.

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So and Nicoletti was a similar situation. He was Sam's enforcer. He was

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the one who collected for him when
he got put in jail in sixty five.

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He was a trusted, close friend, and Nicoletti, unlike everybody else

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says will come to learn, was
the only person whoever had a problem with

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a cargo and the bosses for killing
for what he believed they killed Sam.

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Nicoletti was convinced right because, as
we'll come to understand, he learned that

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he, in an unintended way,
was kind of connected to a situation around

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it. Now, these names may
sound extremely familiar to somebody who's followed the

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Kennedy case for many years for many
reasons, but one of the key reasons

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might be because it comes up in
the narrative given by James Sutton, who

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is also known as James Files,
who you know, on the sixtieth anniversary

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was apparently threatening to show up on
the Knowll and show people exactly where he

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was standing allegedly right, which I
found funny. Mike, Do you remember

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that going on when we were in
Dallas, that there was the rumor James

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Files is going to come out and
stand on the Knowll. Yeah, I

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did that if people were joking or
or if it was for real, you

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know, but he didn't show up
either way, thank god, as far

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as I know, he didn't show
up. But there was this very serious

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talk that he was going to show
up. And again, I agree with

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you. I don't know if it
was a joke or but it was repeated

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a lot, let's say. Anyway, but Files claims to be somebody who

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came from Chicago was part of that. And a lot of people with or

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without Files have tried to put a
gun in Nicoletti's hands in Dealey Plaza.

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The problem is Nicoletti is in Chicago
being investigated for a murderer at the time.

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Yeah, kind of had eyes on
him elsewhere. And yeah, but

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anyway, gee, that sounds familiar
to Karma. So okay, where do

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we begin? I guess we should
begin now with the biography to get people

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an ida in case they've just heard
the name and are not sure and just

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go, oh, yeah the mob
boss and I start throwing some of those

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guys to a little bit about each
of those those gentlemen that we mentioned as

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well, absolutely go right in.
Okay, So Salvatory Momo Ginkana was born

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during nineteen hundred and eight on the
southwest side of Chicago's literally after his parents

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arrived in a series of Italian immigration
waves had begun during the eighteen sixties.

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A young Sam would join various local
gangs until the nineteen twenties, when he

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00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.919
developed associations with the criminal syndicate of
al Capone. He served as a driver,

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00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.360
we're an enforcer in the component organization
until his formal acceptance into Chicago Mafia.

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00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.360
Among the nineteen forties, he aligned
himself with Tony Big Tuna Accardo,

207
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and by the end of the next
decade, following Akato's retirement, Sam ruled

208
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:18.039
over the entire Chicago mafia and surrounded
himself with infamous allies. He utilized fixer

209
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:26.399
Johnny Handsome John Rozilli to increase his
nationwide gambling rackets. Charles typewriter Nicoletti enforced

210
00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:33.159
Momo's will and managed projects in his
absence. Dominic Butchi Blasi was his secretary

211
00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.039
and bodyguard, and Richard Scalzetti Kane
was Momo's driver and corrupt police official.

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00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:42.000
Now really quickly, Garmine, just
to give people an idea of the diverse

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00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:48.720
type of business we're talking about here
among these gentlemen collectively. This range is

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00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.639
everywhere from your very typical, you
know, typically standard mob type stuff in

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00:16:53.759 --> 00:17:00.000
Chicago, all the way to show
business, all the way into literally entertainment.

216
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.720
Yeah, he was dating Judith Campbell
exter, he was dating what was

217
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.960
it, the m one of the
Maguire sisters. Oh yeah, but not

218
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.640
just in his uh you know,
let's call it his social life, but

219
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I mean in his business. He
was doing this, Yeah, Johnny ROSSELLI

220
00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.839
yeah, was out there trying to
represent the interests of the mob. Right.

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00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.079
Uh. You know, there's even
the possibility that these guys had little

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00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.119
interests in people like Elvis Presley,
uh, you know, and so on

223
00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.160
and so forth. Now I can't
prove that, but uh it is said

224
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:36.279
and does seem to have some reliable
uh reliable information connected to it. Uh

225
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.160
and and Hollywood and the mafia.
This is something that's gone on. But

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he also have the Vegas uh you
know, interests, so on and so

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00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.400
forth. But it's so diverse that
it goes all the way from there to

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00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.599
the castro plots right where. Indeed, just like we read in the uh

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you know, the Wonderful Assassination Guide, hiring criminals in order to facilitate certain

230
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:03.640
things, you know, when they
already have established business contacts. Well,

231
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.759
it made sense to get some of
these guys who might have been running casinos

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in Cuba, you know, under
the regime previous to Castro, to maybe

233
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.519
involve them in the get Castro projects. Now, there are some people that

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00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.680
say, well, that was the
whole thing. There was a really popular

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00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.240
book there for a little bit that
went out there and said it was all

236
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.880
about Cuba, right, it was
all about the mob wanted their casinos back

237
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.680
in Cuba, and the only way
that they were going to get that is

238
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.880
to kill Kennedy and so on and
so on. A completely ludicrous idea,

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00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.519
but you know, the American publican
buy it because they don't necessarily understand how

240
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.400
these things were flowing or do flow
even to this day. So anyway back

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00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.880
to it, that's a pretty diverse
set of business interests, wouldn't you say,

242
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.559
Carmer. Yeah, and that's just
some of them. You know,

243
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.039
those are five notables that I found, But yeah, he worked with dozens

244
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.799
of people and dozens of prochas.
One interesting one that I mentioned in the

245
00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:12.079
article that's in the references is that
he had a cousin, I believe distant

246
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:18.160
cousin, but it could have been
the Direction who was serving in the Illinois

247
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:23.960
legislature during nineteen sixty three and he
was trying to get him to become a

248
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:30.680
ward captain. Insho pushed out the
old ward captain, but that durw an

249
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.720
investigation and they found out what he
was doing. So someone so I think

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00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.000
just to consider that for a moment, all the people who you are and

251
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:38.839
say, oh, you know,
they had long planned this, even gian

252
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:44.480
Connor was kind of busy during nineteen
sixty three with other stuff. You know,

253
00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.359
unless the sort of plan comes out
or documents of a mob plan.

254
00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.279
I mean, we've discussed this before. I can understand Jack Ruby. That

255
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.799
makes sense. Mafia connections. You
know, he got pushed out of Chicago

256
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:57.880
and the rackets. He's a minor
player, He's easily manipulated. Sure,

257
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.400
the mafia could have I've had a
part in Lee Harvey Oswald's death. Oh

258
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:04.480
yeah, but that doesn't mean they
killed jfk Well, and there you go,

259
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:10.880
okay, and you could in some
ways connect you know, you could

260
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.039
connect Ruby to g and Kanna,
right, yeah, so you know,

261
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.599
there you go that's it. No, that's not it. He was a

262
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:19.720
loser. He got pushed out of
town. Yeah, if you would have

263
00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.440
been strong, jen Kanna would want
him to stay, he would have kept

264
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.319
him right. So he was good
at but he was still a useful guy

265
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:29.960
and could oh yeah later on sure. Yeah, but you know, but

266
00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.640
here we go. Okay, so
Ruby is connected to him as well.

267
00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.519
It's not just the Files connection and
so on in Castro. No, no,

268
00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:40.039
no, James Files. Smith has
nothing to do with any of this.

269
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.400
These people are all legitimate, now, you know, besides Ruby,

270
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:48.160
but these others are more legitimate gangsters
who actually have a real record. They

271
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.119
but it's like with Roselli. People
try to work Roselle into some sort of

272
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.920
daily plaza scenario and that doesn't work
either because he's at the desert and hotel

273
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.359
under FBI surveillance. Another thing is
that Giencanna, Roselli, Nicoletti, most

274
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.599
of them were either under police or
FBI surveillance most of the time at the

275
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.559
time in fact. And you know, and the funny thing is they also

276
00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.680
try and transform uh you know,
uh, this guy's the dawn of what

277
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:17.680
did they say, the dawn of
Hollywood or the don Roselli, he's the

278
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.519
dawn of this or the he was
the don or nothing. He was a

279
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:26.599
good middleman that was able to get
things done. It was like a multi

280
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.839
state coppo. Yeah, and that's
and that is useful, and I get

281
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:36.279
it. But this is not a
guy who was like running anything. And

282
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.319
that's the funny thing about Giancanna,
where you know, again, like you

283
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.920
said, he's not exactly running the
show at the time. Anyway, let's

284
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.720
get back to it. You've laid
out part of this, and I just

285
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.240
wanted to, you know, just
note the diversity and the very interesting,

286
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:55.519
widespread reasons why this guy could be
everywhere doing everything. But now you need

287
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:59.119
to actually connect him to the assassination. But but anyhow, let's get back

288
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:06.160
to his assassinad Okay. Interestingly,
all of those men I had mentioned besides

289
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.680
Dominic Blasi, were killed in gangland
style murders which occurred from nineteen seventy three

290
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.240
to nineteen seventy seven. Cain,
who aided Gincana before and following the period,

291
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.559
Sam fled the United States in nineteen
sixty six from prosecution, was shot

292
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:23.200
down with all other patrons in set
a restaurant by massed men in Chicago mid

293
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:27.839
nineteen seventy three. Johnny Rosselli's body
was found in pieces within an industrial drum

294
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:33.279
floating in a Florida Bay amongst nineteen
seventy six, and Nicoletti was shot and

295
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.000
left in a burning car in the
spring of nineteen seventy seven. The FBI

296
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:42.759
later quietly investigated Nicolette's murder, and
criminal informant statements blame his death on conflicts

297
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.599
with Tony Jacardo, who had remained
a force in the underworld following Guiacana's absence.

298
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.599
Each were Gincana loyalists, but only
one person was spared the seeming wrath

299
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:59.640
the Chicago outfit using motive, means
and opportunity. When regarding a crime whose

300
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.599
details are in dispute and finding new
evidence to form reasonable conclusions is the matter

301
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.759
at hand. Today. I have
brought some new evidence for consideration that I

302
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.519
and I would contend when we apply
it to other facts from the crime scene,

303
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:17.920
witness statements, and using the aforementioned
requirements, it allows us to provide

304
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.039
answers to the question of who killed
sam Gy and Kana. The first wish,

305
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:27.200
first thing I wish to offer is
the popular and unlikely motives that we

306
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:33.400
have often heard. So the first
and probable motive for attacking Sam Giancana was

307
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.799
we can easily roll out as robbery
because gen Kana's body, according to investigators,

308
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.680
had fourteen hundred dollars in his pants
pocket after being discovered, the most

309
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.720
basic act that thief would undertake was
checking in for money and jewelry, and

310
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:48.200
both are still present after the assassin
that fled the crime scene was not ransacked

311
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.000
or valuables, and easier targets or
greater financial gain were present across Chicago.

312
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.200
Thus, I would submit this was
not a robbery gone wrong, A popular

313
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.880
motive that some of proposed in books
and films, would blame the Central Intelligence

314
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.000
Agency for gen Conna's murder. He
is among the mafia notables in contact with

315
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:11.279
officials that also included Johnny Roselli,
Santo Trafficante, and Jenkanna under the alias

316
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.119
Sam Gold. The contacts were made
by the CIA's Office of Security, using

317
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:21.079
multiple agents and officers seeking a means
to assassinate Fidel Castro. However, the

318
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:26.079
involvement of Giencanna and Trafficante was limited
to some planning and would not bear any

319
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:32.759
useful operational material, but Rozzelli would
continue supporting the plots after Gancana and Trafficante

320
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:37.400
had left. Yet, even Rozzelli, similar to his criminal superiors, had

321
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.319
no real use in exacting a plot
against Fidel Castro. Nevertheless, many believe

322
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:47.200
the agency was responsible for gene Conna's
death because of these associations. However,

323
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.400
there was no reason to kill Gancana
because he did not possess an eminent threat.

324
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.759
It had no information regarding the plots
beyond his For that, I would

325
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.079
say, for that reason, I
want people to understand he was a threat

326
00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.559
for other reasons. But for the
Castro plots, there was no imminent threat,

327
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:07.279
and no information regarding the plots beyond
his limited participation or what Roselli might

328
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.240
relate to him, was available.
I would note the press by the early

329
00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.240
nineteen seventy five, far before he
was killed, had begun to reveal the

330
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.559
Castro plots, while congressional investigators pursued
of effect possible. Sam was called to

331
00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:23.000
testify later that year, but he
was killed prior to the date of his

332
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:29.359
testimony. Those who might assume this
was another reason for the CIA to be

333
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.720
responsible may not have consulted several of
his former testimonies and his response to questions

334
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:40.119
posed by multiple Department of Justice and
Congressional officials. He would respond, often

335
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.279
by invoking his Fifth Amendment right and
in some cases laughing at their attempts to

336
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.559
force him to reply. Throughout the
nineteen fifties and sixties, There's one instance

337
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.160
where Robert F. Kennedy calls him
a little girl for laughing, or says

338
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.680
he laughs like a little girl because
he laughed at them. I thought little

339
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:59.599
girls laugh, mister Jack, Yeah, yeah, right, go ahead.

340
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:03.319
Sorry. So despite offers of immunity, years of surveillance, and threats of

341
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.839
spending his life in jail, Sam
did not relent and kept his criminal secrets

342
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:14.200
to himself. Additionally, the CIA
had years of opportunities to kill Jancana if

343
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.440
they wished to demise amid the later
sixties until nineteen seventy four, when he

344
00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:23.880
was eluding some officials within Latin American
countries. If the agency truly wished to

345
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:27.559
remove Sam, they had stations in
every country he visited, an agent's in

346
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:32.640
the field, they would have the
perfect atmosphere to carry out a deadly clandestine

347
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:38.160
act. It provided literal and political
distance and possibly amenable foreign investigators. This

348
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:44.799
period abroad generated several potential chances for
Momo to have a quote accident happened,

349
00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.720
as is prescribed in some of the
older agency's peb Success operational files. Yet

350
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.480
nothing ever happened to jan Conna when
it would have been most opportune for intelligence

351
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.319
officials, and this would support they
were not responsible for his death. Consider

352
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.599
that Giancana was a threat where he
lived to his enemies, but those who

353
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:07.400
killed him only acted months after his
return to America. Should officials that have

354
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:08.880
wished to eliminate him, they could
have done at any time, but his

355
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:14.240
enemies in Chicago had to wait for
him to return, right, Okay.

356
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.039
Now that's usually the key though,
is that they say, well, look,

357
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.720
he was about to testify. That's
why they had to get rid of

358
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.400
him, because he was going to
finally spill stuff. And no, he

359
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.319
hadn't spilled it before, but now
he was finally. What evidence do we

360
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.440
have that there was going to be
anything different from his usual elusive behavior that

361
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.440
you described. I don't think we
have any you know, no, So

362
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.720
you know, maybe he was being
shut down, but not by the agency,

363
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.599
and not because of the threat of
the testimony, that makes no sense.

364
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:52.319
Fatter Well, and I agree with
you, And I think that a

365
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.640
little fact that people, you know, when they say that it was because

366
00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:59.039
he was going to testify was the
reason they had to kill him, they

367
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.519
don't realize that if if you look
into the record, Johnny Roselli, who

368
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:07.640
knew more about the plots, testified
five days after jin Kinna died. Yeah,

369
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.839
so he would have been killed.
Well, or if that's what they

370
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:12.279
were doing, I mean, if
they were going to make sure nobody was

371
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.799
going to testify, the guy who
knew the most would have found the person

372
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.480
to eliminate, not gen Conna.
Well, alternatively, Roselli would have gotten

373
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:25.279
the message. Okay, oh yeah, there you go too. Yeah,

374
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:30.039
if Zella would have thought for a
moment that anything to do with it.

375
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.720
Yeah, if Sam was being shut
down for talking about this, I better

376
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:38.000
reconsider what I'm about to say.
H And that happens all the time.

377
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:44.119
Okay, Well, when it comes
to these guys testifying, is that suddenly

378
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.279
somebody changes their mind. I mean, you know, even if you look

379
00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:52.200
back at that whole thing with Gotti, right and the guy who uh you

380
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.759
know, was going to testify against
him in court over a car accident.

381
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.480
If you remember, all of a
sudden he figures out this is John and

382
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.839
his memory goes blank. Right,
they get a message that this might not

383
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:08.160
be a good idea to talk and
be a real shame if something bad were

384
00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:12.000
to happen. It's sad that that
happened to Sam. You know, he

385
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:15.799
was about ready to talk about some
of these things you're about ready to go

386
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.640
talk about. If I was you, I'm just saying I'd think about that,

387
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:22.960
and that could be a friendly face
coming to you to give you a

388
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:29.960
warning. So yeah, so the
CIA needed to get him for the testimony

389
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.480
just doesn't work. That's not a
viable reasoning for why he was killed.

390
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.880
You don't have any evidence that backs
it up to say that that's what the

391
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.279
deal was. I mean, that's
all I'm saying. Yeah, but please

392
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.920
continue because this is an interesting timeline. But a lot of people say,

393
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.480
Nope, they had to kill him
because he was going to go testify,

394
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.400
And I go, yeah, but
that doesn't make any sense because he's already

395
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.200
proven that he's elusive, gives you
know, pleads, the fifth does stuff

396
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.920
like this. He dances around and
he's given some testimony already, and they

397
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.200
offered him immunity before and he's refused
it. That's the other thing is that

398
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:11.160
he was also offered immunity people that
thought that he might have something to offer

399
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:15.440
regarding the Kennedy case. He was
offered immunity in that case, like if

400
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.119
you have something on this, we'll, you know, give you a pass

401
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:25.200
here. And you know this is
speculation, but from what I've read about

402
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.839
him, he was a fairly proud
man if he thought that he could get

403
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.960
them to put on paper that he
had killed the president and they would have

404
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.759
to publish it and nothing would happen
to him, right, I have a

405
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.920
feeling he would have done that.
This is a guarantee that you will go

406
00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:44.720
down in history if you are the
mob guy who killed the president and you

407
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:45.640
can't do nothing about it. I
got a minute, Yeah, and they

408
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.759
gave you immunity deal. Yeah no, so just yeah, please continue.

409
00:30:52.519 --> 00:31:00.920
Okay, So where were we?
Yeah? So the means I think we

410
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:07.440
yeah, the timing, the timing
Rosellus, Oh yeah, okay, so

411
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.720
yeah, they were they were awaiting
him back in Chicago, right, So

412
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:17.000
the means by which was killed also
defy usual methods and have no and the

413
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:21.960
agency has no inside person with fore
knowledge of the crime scene Gencanna's habits,

414
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.720
his schedule, or his full trust. Only the FBI had him under the

415
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:30.079
sort of surveillance that would provide that
right, only the FBI if and I

416
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.400
don't think the FBI did it,
Okay, I did have the information of

417
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.359
what was going on in his life
to know those things. So it has

418
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.160
to be someone close to him personally. It can't just be some as they

419
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.960
were, as the rap song and
Young Guns say, some geek off the

420
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.240
street. Can't be some geek off
the street. It has to be someone

421
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.279
who actually is close to him.
Now, why does that make sense,

422
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.160
Carmine, Because tell me the circumstances. When he dies, he's like making

423
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.680
breakfast, there's nobody else around,
and yes, what how do you know?

424
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:14.119
Well? Okay, so okay,
So the Chicago outfit this will lead

425
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.920
into into your question. So the
outfit, in my opinion, had distinct

426
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:23.960
and officially recorded motives to eliminate Giancanna
before his extensive criminal reputation and connections might

427
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:30.240
allow him to regain lost power in
Chicago. Giancana, according to FBI investigative

428
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:32.559
documents, was considered a threat to
Tony Ycardo's power. As we stated before,

429
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:37.799
Sam's former boss and mentor, and
he was bringing renewed attention to the

430
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.519
mob. That's the reason why he
originally was displaced. They were afraid the

431
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.799
Justice Department just wouldn't let up in
the sixties, what the Kennedys had started,

432
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.839
the Johnson administration continued and the FBI
began to surveil him everywhere, planting

433
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.720
bugs and Barsi'd go to. He
wasn't going to get away, so the

434
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.440
mob basically said you half step aside, which drove him out of the country

435
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.440
because he knew they'd just started to
try to prosecute him and he wasn't going

436
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:10.799
to testify. So Giancanna was allegedly
also romancing a different mobster's wife and had

437
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:15.400
discussed possibly regaining more of his former
criminal territory. This information alone does not

438
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:20.359
implicate the mafia, but establishes,
with some evidence, more reasonable motivations to

439
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.720
kill Giancanna that do not require speculation. Giancanna was a rightfully paranoid man that

440
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:29.359
was under government surveillance almost constant leader
in portions of his life due to his

441
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.279
criminal undertakings, but to get close
to him, as we said, required

442
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:37.440
a trusted friend with the right weapon. Public information regarding the origin of the

443
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:42.720
Gencana murder weapon has been limited,
and not until the more recent JFK records

444
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:47.319
releases did such information emerge. Following
the twenty seventeen GfK releases, there was

445
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:52.079
so much information a process I had
to start archiving files with just a basic

446
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:55.039
description and possible use. After one
thousands of such files, I then had

447
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:00.319
to make folders to organize the files
with added in infation and set them aside

448
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.720
to process morphiles. Right, and
let's not forget let's not forget here that

449
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.400
if you're somebody who's considering killing Sam
g and Connam, and you know,

450
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:14.920
he knew he was under surveillance constantly. I mean to the point of he

451
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.960
was literally when they were putting new
undercover guys on him, he knew about

452
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.239
it, and he would approach them
himself. One of my favorite things that

453
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.840
actually read in the FBI documents,
they were complaining that he said that he

454
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:29.159
was always under surveillance. Because he's
not always under surveillance. It's like,

455
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.360
okay, guys five days a week. Yeah, But anyway, he would

456
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:36.440
literally approach some of these that FBI
guys. So all right, so he

457
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.639
knew it. Other people on the
street knew it. So here's your problem.

458
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:44.719
You know that you're constantly under surveillance. That means government eyes are on

459
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.320
this guy. That means somebody going
to try and get up close to him

460
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:52.239
and kill him is going to be
seen by the people that are surveilling him.

461
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:57.960
Yes, so you know, should
have been seen. So it gets

462
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:04.039
weird here because yeah, that currently
weren't surveilling in that most important time period

463
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:08.639
apparently, yes. But again this
is because and I'm telling you, this

464
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:14.480
guy's cooking breakfast by the way,
you know, but like night snack,

465
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.760
which one to call it, almost
but either way. Uh so, you

466
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.159
know, and he's not accompanied by
anybody. He's not in the middle of

467
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.519
anything. This isn't, you know, spark steakhouse. Okay, all right,

468
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:32.360
go ahead, Okay. So,
So, like I said, after

469
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.280
going through all of that and still
trying to organize all of it, one

470
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.480
of the files that I had put
aside years ago that I was that I

471
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:44.559
finally came back to that I knew
was worthwhile and helped me dig into more

472
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:47.719
of this was something about Giancana's murder
weapon. So the weapon used to kill

473
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.119
Sam Giancanna was a twenty two automatic
pistol equipped with a silencer. But this

474
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:58.519
weapon was one of a pair that
was purchased by an unknown criminal from the

475
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:06.960
Ta Miami Shop in Florida amidst nineteen
sixty five. The gun business was regarded

476
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.840
by the FBI later as a dummy
corporation that did illegal arms trades with criminals

477
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:20.079
and Cuban exiles. The other pistol
related to the Giancana weapon was used in

478
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:28.800
the still unsolved murder of Outfit associate
August Maniaci, a murder whose prime suspects

479
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:36.880
were gangster Paul Shiro being the shooter
and his driver, Charles Nicoletti. This

480
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:42.280
would confirm to the This would conform
to the hit squads that Nicoletti was leading

481
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:45.960
at the time that's available in other
documents in the course of the sixties and

482
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.719
seventies in which he oversaw and planned
murders and shows assassins. Yet a key

483
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:54.559
piece of information is the weapons are
in the possession of the Chicago Outfit at

484
00:36:54.599 --> 00:37:02.280
the time of Giancana and Maniaci's later
death right, so we can establish where

485
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.599
the means emerged. Not the CIA, but the Mafia provided the weapon used

486
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:15.159
to kill Sam Gancana. Right so, Giancana's driver and bodyguard, Dominic Blasi,

487
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:21.000
has been deemed by some the murderer
over several years based on known circumstances,

488
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.920
but now definitive answer was possible.
However, after reviewing the evidence and

489
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:30.880
more recent available FBI documents, I
must agree with that assessment. The suspect

490
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.920
pool, based on witness statements,
official surveillance, and access to the weapon

491
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.760
is quite limited. Of those criminal
suspects, only Blazi knew Giancana's home well,

492
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:45.800
was present at the crime scene just
before the murder, where Giancana had

493
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:50.000
been cooking, which consumes precious time. As Chuck mentioned in the Small Window,

494
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.000
he can be killed unobserved, and
this would mean he had to turn

495
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:57.639
his back to whomever was there when
he did so. Dominic Blazi was a

496
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.719
trusted friend and Sam had no reason
to suspens in his life. Among the

497
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:07.199
details known to the killer was the
sound proofing within the basement ceiling, a

498
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.639
loud air conditioner upstairs, a recessed
door that partially obstructed the view from upstairs,

499
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:16.599
and the basement exit to leave unseen
while some factors might not conceal the

500
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.039
sound of gunfire, with the addition
of a silencer as we know is used

501
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:25.760
and a loud television that appears to
be what occurred, the suspect leaves unseen

502
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:30.559
out the back before Genecana's body is
discovered, less than thirty minutes from the

503
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:36.400
last time he's seen alive. Yet
the role of Dominic Blasi has been overshadowed

504
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.360
by claim of agency responsibility and was
hidden in some instances by the FBI.

505
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:49.199
Unknown to the Chicago outfit was that
Blasi had made several contacts with the Bureau

506
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.840
and his status as a criminal informant. While most of the information Blasi offered

507
00:38:54.880 --> 00:39:00.880
the FBI regarded sam Jenkana and himself, it appears he was loyal to summon

508
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:05.320
the mafia, but not its leader. The Bureau had concealed the murder weapon

509
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.639
information from the public to likely protect
their source of useful information, and in

510
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:17.199
doing so have kept its association to
be revealed to the public. Blasi,

511
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:22.039
when later suspected and questioned, would
not testify about the death of Giancana to

512
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:27.719
a grand jury, further cementing the
Chicago Syndicate's role in sam Jiancana's death were

513
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.800
reports from three FBI criminal informants that
stay quote, the word is still out.

514
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.760
He Jiancana had it coming and a
cardo ayupa and the rest of the

515
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:42.039
people are satisfied with a job well
done. Okay, the Bureau's source.

516
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.559
I'm sorry, go ahead. I
just want to stop you for a second

517
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.599
and ask Mike, do you have
any thoughts thus far on this? Mike?

518
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:52.719
Uh, I mean, I'm just
listening to what Karma's saying. He's

519
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.519
going into good detail on it.
No, it's excellent. And of course

520
00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:00.960
the other thing that people bring up
about this is the manner in which he

521
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:04.719
was shot and all this kind of
thing that this was a message being sent.

522
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.599
And here's the thing that's sort of
flair. That kind of a thing

523
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.920
not something the agency does. Now, some people might argue that, well,

524
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:17.840
the agency hired the mob to do
it. But you know, here

525
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:22.800
we go once again. Yeah,
I would answer to that the Roselle thing.

526
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:28.239
Then why didn't Roselle die? Right? Right? So they're going to

527
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:31.880
cut everybody off before they can testify. Then, like you all said earlier,

528
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.360
though, what's the reason. What
was he going to say of course

529
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:40.639
he's dead, so we don't know. But is there any reason to think

530
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:47.000
he was going to say something that
was so important that they would have to

531
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:53.159
eliminate him, Well, you know, I doubt it. Well I agree

532
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.119
with that assessment because I know you
guys have looked at him fairly extensively,

533
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.239
and I've looked over the castro plots, documents, all the stages, you

534
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.239
know, Phase one, two and
three, and you know, we even

535
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:06.519
contributed to some of the stuff on
phase three on the show to show you

536
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.480
know, new documents and things.
So it's not a question of that it

537
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.679
was going on. I'm sure it
was going on, but the mafia was

538
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:17.199
gone before Phase one was even halfway
through. They knew they had the poison

539
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:22.440
pill, all the nonsense that they
had suggested, and it turned out really

540
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:24.480
just to be what's funny is is
the people don't ever The only thing that

541
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:29.840
might be a motive to want to
kill Giancana was that he blackmailed the CIA

542
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:36.800
because he had spied on Judith Campbell
Exner legally with sound sound equipment and they

543
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:38.960
were going to charge him for that. But Giancanna said, oh yeah,

544
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.880
well then I'll tell everybody about the
Castro plots. So they had to get

545
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:45.440
Bobby Kennedy to give the okay for
the DOJ to get rid of that indictment.

546
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.679
Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and no, I think the government

547
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:53.480
was just like, just get him
away from us. He's a problem,

548
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.880
he's got Anything he does is going
to have strengths, no way to deal

549
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.519
with it. And here's the other
problem is earlier on in the timeline.

550
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:07.800
If you're the CIA, this guy
is already an issue long before his death.

551
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:12.519
You got a decade here, Yeah, at least where he could have

552
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:15.920
make an accident happen, you know. And and if you would have gotten

553
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:20.519
rid of him in you know,
sixty five, Uh, nobody would have

554
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.159
thought about it because nobody knew about
any of this stuff yet, it would

555
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.920
have just you know, you make
that look like an accident, make that

556
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.920
look like something else, right,
And look, it's a it's a dangerous

557
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:36.039
business. It's a you got a
high fatality rate, you know, in

558
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:37.840
that point, especially in all the
other countries too. As soon as he

559
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:43.800
goes to a country where it's not
there isn't a real strong central government,

560
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:45.440
you can make all sorts of things
happen, right, You could just make

561
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.719
him. You know that, then
you could make him the victim of guess

562
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.400
what, a robbery, a random
robbery where they just happened to kill the

563
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.960
mob guy. And as you said
about the signature, that is true too.

564
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:01.079
Only usually professional criminals. Are people
wanting to stand out give that many

565
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:06.519
shots as a message? Right?
And what was just killing someone to What

566
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:08.440
are we talking about specifically, Carma? I just for the listener who doesn't

567
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:13.760
know the mafia, the mafia hit
men, certain hit men. Yeah,

568
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:15.880
but you would would try to be
flamboyant in the way that they killed someone,

569
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.760
right in this than wanted to go
under the radar like the agency would

570
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.480
if they were trying to kill something. Right in this case, what are

571
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:28.519
we talking about? Because what happened
here? Oh he was shot. He

572
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:35.079
was shot I believe once or five
times from behind something like that, Yeah,

573
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.400
and then turned over. He was
shot at an ordan amount of times,

574
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.239
right, more than more than necessary. One shot to where to his

575
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:44.079
head would have killed him, right. I mean, look, a couple

576
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.280
of sometimes you got to you gotta
tap at twenty two a couple of times

577
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.639
because it's a light, you know, Okay, But the thing is a

578
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:52.880
couple of times in the back of
the head with the twenty two. You

579
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:55.000
should be done. But no,
this guy was turned over and then shot

580
00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:00.079
in the mouth. All right,
so uh yeah, this doesn't look good.

581
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.559
Uh, this looks like again,
not an agency kill. You know,

582
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.800
the agency is more of the personality
of let's shoot him with an ice

583
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:13.519
bullet because that'll melt yeah, you
know, you know, yeah seven,

584
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.320
But I mean the agency is more
more like it, like I said,

585
00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:21.000
let's shoot him with an ice bullet
or something, because the projectile will melt

586
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:22.559
away. That'll be the end of
it. There'll be a hole and no

587
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:27.039
projectile that far. You know what, just dose, somebody falls down the

588
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.840
stairs something like that. You know, older guys fall down the stairs,

589
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:36.599
right exactly, or you know that's
actually one straight out of the manual,

590
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.760
like the hilariasis. Yeah he fell
out the window, yeah exactly. No,

591
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:44.480
he fell out the window. Was
his neck broken before he fell out

592
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.719
the window? Maybe? But it's
okay. Uh yeah. Well, and

593
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:52.679
I think once you you know,
you had the the long standing information and

594
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:58.039
a lot of the information that it's
likely rested upon Blasi. But once that

595
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.679
once I was able to close that
window down to less than a half an

596
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:05.679
hour while Giancana's cooking. Another thing
that I that I noticed when I was

597
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:07.360
looking over the case file, it
was there was no smoke in the basement.

598
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:12.199
M hm, So that food couldn't
have been cooking that long, right,

599
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.599
he didn't, you know what I
mean? So you give ten minutes

600
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:22.840
for the preparation nobody else is you're
gonna tell me that someone wandered in in

601
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:29.800
a twenty minute window to the back
of sam g and Conna's and killed him

602
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.320
and was able to vanish with no
one seeing him or hearing it. Right.

603
00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:36.880
And here's the other thing, is
all these circumstances lead you to believe

604
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.760
that this is somebody that got you
know, they didn't break in suddenly bust

605
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:45.360
in the place and you know,
and go shooting it up. It wasn't

606
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:46.880
one of the things too. I
was gonna just say real quickly. THEFI

607
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:52.079
I mentioned that when they wanted to
get a temperature amongst the underworld basically to

608
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.880
see what they thought. There was
no talk of revenge from anybody but Nicolotti.

609
00:45:55.719 --> 00:46:00.760
See, and there you have it
again, right, because why is

610
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:05.679
there no cross talk like that?
Because it's known what happen. Yeah,

611
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:07.800
Because somebody from on high gave the
order. That's what they actually said.

612
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:12.519
And they talk about how you know
if they mentioned Blasi, and they say,

613
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.559
if Blasi got the order, he
had no choice. It doesn't matter

614
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.440
if you're his friend, it doesn't
matter anything. You have to do what

615
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:21.880
your ordered to do. That's it. And like I said, your friends

616
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.079
are the most likely suspects, because
again, who's going to be you know,

617
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:28.320
who's he turning his back on while
he's at the stove, right,

618
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.239
Yeah, seriously, his bodyguard,
his driver, you know, his longtime

619
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:35.519
friend, his friend, somebody who
came by that he had an appointment with

620
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.199
that you know, they don't write
down things in an appointment book. But

621
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.400
he's gonna come by and I have
a chat with him. Okay, fine,

622
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:44.840
I'm cooking some eggs. Let's talk. Uh, and you know so,

623
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:46.760
and there's no struggle, there's no
well and then he didn't take it

624
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:50.880
by I mean, I'm not saying
that Blasi always because Joe Prizio, the

625
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.519
caretaker and his wife, you know, something like they're important people to the

626
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:58.440
mob or anything, right, But
he left and didn't say anything. Right.

627
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:02.599
That's just strikes me as odd that
in that small brief window we were

628
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.960
just talking about. Blasi just wandered
away, didn't notice that anything, you

629
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.719
know, just I guess I'll leave
now right before this happens. Yeah,

630
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:15.000
well, of course. Anyway,
please continue on though, because this is

631
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:22.800
this is the most interesting and okay, yeah, yeah, So the Bureau

632
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:25.119
files stated it had to be someone
that was had the complete confidence of g

633
00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:30.719
and Kanna to be able to get
close enough to kill him. And everyone

634
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.360
should note that all this was hidden, like all these all these Bureau files

635
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.320
were sealed in the JFK files.
In my opinion, they had nothing to

636
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:43.320
do with the I mean beyond I
think the way the Bureau was able to

637
00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:46.800
hide them was it was via Exner
and because there was talk in part of

638
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:52.000
one page of the file of Exner, who was connected to the JFK case,

639
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:58.360
right, got deep sixth Yeah,
when you have people that are common

640
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.639
between two individuals, you're tracking them
on one half, you can't have them

641
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:07.440
disappear and okay, we can't talk
about them now. So this is where

642
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.280
the problem is, right, And
it's not because they were you know,

643
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.199
oh, clearly this is a cover
up for the Kennedy assassination. No,

644
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:19.519
it's because he had a couple of
common associates in common. This is what

645
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:22.360
the thing is. And there's more
to it than that too, because don't

646
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:27.440
forget, what does everybody else bring
up to when they start talking about Chicago.

647
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.159
Well, the Chicago mafia helped the
Kennedy steal the election? You know

648
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.559
that that whole story too, right? Yeah? Yeah, So you know,

649
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:40.960
look, is it a truth that
there were people in the Chicago outfit

650
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:47.159
that knew some of Kennedy's people and
did they have friends in common? Did

651
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:51.840
they have this one lover in common? Yeah, that's what I'm saying here.

652
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:57.199
So that's enough right there to deep
six this because you don't want to

653
00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:00.760
be talking about well, you know, meanwhile, this associate is going to

654
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.880
see the president or whoever. Right, So yeah, that's exactly what happened,

655
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:10.280
So please continue. Okay. Yeah, So, like I said that,

656
00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:14.719
one of the big things the FBI
noticed, and one of the things

657
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:19.800
I think that helps cement to Blasi
as being our suspect, is that they

658
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.719
had that, you know, beyond
all the other circumstances, and beyond that

659
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.239
he was the only one president in
the window, and beyond that he left

660
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:36.920
without saying anyone that he was among
those who didn't bid revenge. If Blasi

661
00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:39.559
was this true ally, this true
friend, why didn't he do what Nicoletti

662
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:45.039
did? And the FBI will go
on in later documents that I cite in

663
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:52.440
the article to think that perhaps Nicoletti
was killed because he was a Junkana loyalist,

664
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.840
which is which makes me think that
there's the possibility not for the JFK

665
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:00.599
case, but for the death of
each of those loyal lists because of their

666
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:07.239
connection to Jana. Right, anybody
who's going to complain about this now has

667
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:09.599
got to go as well, because
they weren't along. And that's the thing.

668
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:14.960
It's it's not because they don't care
what happened. It's because they have

669
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:19.599
an explanation in HND. Because what
happens when a mob guy is killed and

670
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.440
nobody saw it coming, right,
it's not an authorized hit. It's not

671
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:27.559
knowing what happened. These guys run
around for a little bit going what the

672
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.639
hell happened? First of all,
you can see it in the wiretaps.

673
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:34.159
You see it in the communications.
They call each other up on the phone,

674
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:37.000
Hey do you know what happened over
there? I mean, this is

675
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:39.920
the way it goes, this didn't
happen in the case of Giancana dying.

676
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:44.880
There weren't people making these inquiries.
Hey, does anybody know what happened over

677
00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:47.159
there? No? No, and
now and then that there was no talk

678
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:52.159
of revo. What I think is
interesting too, is is I think Roselli,

679
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.480
in his own way, he wasn't
as bold as Nicoletti. He didn't

680
00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:58.400
try to confront a Carter or say
it was wrong and that no, you

681
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:02.519
know, whoever did Sam was wrong
for killing him. I think that Rosselli.

682
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:07.519
If you notice Roselli retired in seventy
five, right, I think Rozelli

683
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.760
just stepped back. He didn't want
to be next. Well, but that's

684
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:15.800
the thing. Unfortunately it didn't matter
where he went. Well, but there

685
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:17.280
you go. Look, I mean, once it's signed and sealed. But

686
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:20.840
that was his attempt to say,
you know what, all right, fine,

687
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.800
I'm I'm done here. Okay,
No, I'm not a threat to

688
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:29.719
anybody because I'm out. And that
was the move there. So really this

689
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:32.280
leads me more to believe in everything
you're laying out, plus other things I

690
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:37.440
know are showing me. This is
more about, you know, what a

691
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:42.880
threat was gotten rid of because of
the hierarchy on the street. That's how

692
00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:46.519
it was about move the entire Genkana
infrastructure, which required Caine's death, which

693
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.760
Cain could have been the first step. Once Giancana was dead, then they

694
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:54.920
had to rely on the most powerful
loyalists, Roselli and Nicoletti. Roselli backs

695
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:59.400
off, he retires, and then
he's killed. The next year, Nicoletti

696
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:02.159
presses the issue. I think Nicoletti
pressed it too. I don't know if

697
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:07.800
he maybe he knew the actual person
who bought them, but I have a

698
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:13.559
feeling Nicoletti might have found out later
on that the partner gun that killed Sam

699
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.599
was the one he used on another
job that they might have come from.

700
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:20.119
I mean, if anybody had a
shot to know where it came from.

701
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:23.039
He was the guy in charge of
assassinations the mob, right, So but

702
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:29.320
clearly if he's complaining about it,
he wasn't in on it, and they

703
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.480
kind of almost linked him in a
sick way to it by using it for

704
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:37.679
the Maniaci murder, Which is another
problem here where purposely almost somebody will do

705
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.440
that, I mean, and these
guys will turn around and use the same

706
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:45.920
gun, so that you got a
ballistic connection I've heard of this before where

707
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:49.840
that's done on purpose, you know, where it's like, well, we're

708
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:52.519
trying. Oh, I'm sure there
were used another Yeah, they both weapons

709
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:54.800
have been used. I'm sure in
prior I had been sixty five, So

710
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:59.760
for ten years these guns were probably
in use in various crimes. Well,

711
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:02.280
either that or they sit around waiting
for something that you want to connect us

712
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:06.960
or something special. Yeah, you
know, and that's the thing. You

713
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:08.400
got this thing. You know it's
a murder weapon, all right, so

714
00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:12.480
you keep this. This is how
murder weapons get discovered. How come this

715
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:19.159
guy held outrun by it? I'm
looking as we're speaking that I found a

716
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:23.800
newspaper article about Rosselli. And I'm
not going to read the whole thing to

717
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:32.000
you, but it's it's a Miami
newspaper nineteen seventy six, and just the

718
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:42.000
first paragraph says that the killers of
John Rosselli gave him the traditional gang laying

719
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:47.199
farewell drink. Then they strangled him
and shot him in the belly so that

720
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:54.079
abdominal gases would not cause us by
to float. But they miscalculated. He

721
00:53:54.159 --> 00:54:00.840
suffered from the sema, which created
pockets in his body anyway, and that

722
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:07.360
lifted the the gallon fifty five gallon
oil drum that they put them in in

723
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:10.960
the surface of the of the bay, and that's how he was discovered.

724
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:16.920
But evidently they when they did the
atops, they were able to figure out

725
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:22.360
that they gave him, that he
drank something and he was shot in the

726
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:28.239
belly and strangled. Well, I
don't that doesn't sound like CIA stuff either.

727
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:32.679
No, but you know, being
shot in the belly and strangled and

728
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:37.360
the people be that close to you
that are doing this to you. Well,

729
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:38.639
and a lot of people think that
they chop them up so that they

730
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.760
can separate, you know, identifying
marks in this kind. Truth is,

731
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:49.400
it's actually the methodology you just described. There a completely intact body, especially

732
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:55.079
if you don't disrupt the the abdominal
cavity will blow up because, like like

733
00:54:55.159 --> 00:55:00.400
you said, the gases in there
begin to expand from i'm the action of

734
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.440
decay. And a lot of times, you know, these bodies they turn

735
00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:07.000
up a little while later, they
seem to float to the surface later if

736
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:10.199
they're not, you know, really
really heavily weighted down. Well, a

737
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:15.519
shortcut is make sure that you don't
have an inflatable area a bladder, so

738
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:20.079
to speak, that inflates. Afterwards, you get rid of the body you

739
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:23.880
disturb that you can't inflate. It's
not going to become a flotation device basically,

740
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:32.480
And here's here's another paragraph for you. There are indications that the seventy

741
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:37.039
one year old Roselle was prepared for
his last treat He was a poor to

742
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:43.199
have spurned the advice of a Washington
lawyer to stay under cover because because he

743
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:49.920
felt his time was running out for
medical reasons. The fisima, Well,

744
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.960
look, I can tell you that
even if you listen to, like say,

745
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:58.440
Sammy the Bull as a podcast,
right, Sammy the Bullgravalla, you

746
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:00.679
listen to him talk about some of
the circumstances where he had to go get

747
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:05.440
rid of somebody he knew. A
lot of times, there's a little bit

748
00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:07.159
of a ritualistic thing that goes on. Look, we were always friends.

749
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:12.199
I'm here to kill you. They
will sit, have a final drink,

750
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:15.920
have a little talk. Hey,
listen, do me a favor. Don't

751
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.039
shoot me in the face. You
know, stuff like this goes on.

752
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.000
Literally, it's true story. I
know it sounds hollywood ish and a lot

753
00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:27.960
of things are exaggerated. In Hollywood. But there are stories all the time

754
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.679
about this kind of thing, So
that's believable as well. Somebody could have

755
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:35.920
very easily. I mean, even
if you watch the Sopranos, right when

756
00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:38.039
when they decide to get rid of
you know, bumping saroh there on the

757
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:42.079
boat, what do they do.
They all get a drink. They all

758
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:45.920
get a shot at tequila. I
think, right, what's interesting now that

759
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:49.079
you bring that up. I mean, this is just in the side.

760
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:52.639
It doesn't, you know, prove
anything in and of itself. But when

761
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:58.880
Deep Paricio just before he left Giancana
and Blasi alone, Blazi had been bothering

762
00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:04.559
him for a glass of sky.
Okay, well, so Blosi was in

763
00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:07.320
the mood to drink right before whatever
happened. That jen kind of happened.

764
00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:12.119
Well, if you ever notice though
it's a common trope. You can see

765
00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:15.760
it again evidenced in these Hollywood movies. But it's a real life thing about

766
00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:19.880
like if you remember in The Godfather, here how a drink? Now tell

767
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.679
your Godfather? What's going on?
The idea of you have a shot of

768
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:29.599
liquor before you deal with something significant. The shot you know a little bit

769
00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:31.760
of a little bit of alcohol before
you're gonna get shot or you gotta go

770
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:40.079
kill somebody, Okay, it says
the story. The paragraph later on a

771
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:45.760
quote. Examiners found a small amount
of alcohol in Result's body, about the

772
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:51.400
equivalent of one drink. Right,
Investigators learned that he hadn't had anything to

773
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:54.480
drink at home that morning, Nor
is any evidence that he stopped at a

774
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:59.400
bar after leaving. Yeah, that
tells me that a friend probably killed him

775
00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:01.519
and sat there. He said,
Look, it's sad you're not leaving you

776
00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:07.960
alive. Okay, but tell them
I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh,

777
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:15.559
the last paragraph stop of the story. But former CI director William Colby,

778
00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:20.480
while meeting the agency enlist of Riselli
and g and Conna in an unfulfilled plot

779
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:24.079
against Castro, he said, I
can guarantee you see he had nothing to

780
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:30.360
do with their deaths in this instance. I do believe this CIA director.

781
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:35.679
Well, Kobe was one of the
rare, more honest ones who actually revealed

782
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.639
some of the CIA secrets to Congress
when he didn't have to, as opposed

783
00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:45.840
to Dulles and others who were forced
kolby himself. You know, he had

784
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:52.079
a strange death too. That not
that is very strange if I were gonna

785
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.599
if I have to place a bet
on Sam g and Connor or William Colby

786
00:58:55.639 --> 00:59:00.000
being killed by the CIA, Sam
and Conna, I gotta tell you that.

787
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:04.559
Look, you see the big difference
here though, Okay, Roselle ends

788
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:08.360
up in a drum chopped up.
Toby has an accident on a boat,

789
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:13.320
okay, which obviously must have been
a suicide jackson, which you know because

790
00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:16.000
I'll tell you anytime I'm suicidal,
I'm going to row a boat out by

791
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:20.480
myself. And I know, come
on, you know this is the big

792
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.840
difference here. Okay, that's what
happens. Okay, So that's what a

793
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:29.119
c I A murder looks like,
you know, not saying that I know

794
00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:32.360
for sure about quothetically hypothetically looking at
the murder guy. That's the way to

795
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:37.239
do it, hypothetically. And yeah, we're backed by certain agency documentation that

796
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.760
says this is how you do it, by the way, but nothing in

797
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.280
uh the the uh you know,
assassination guy talks about making sending a message,

798
00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:49.400
making a point of it. No, in fact, that's the exact

799
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:53.320
opposite what that That's why, as
you know, we've we've said before and

800
00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:58.639
not just reiterated that that's why this
death. You know, I'm glad we've

801
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:00.559
been able to contribute some more information
so we have a better picture of a

802
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:06.119
better answer with more evidence. But
ultimately, one of the big reasons why

803
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:09.800
this wasn't ever likely a CIA death
is because it attracts attention. As I've

804
01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:15.239
said before, James Bond is the
worst spy in the history of spies because

805
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:17.440
he attracts attention. Everybody. The
guy in the back of the room,

806
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:23.079
the little fat guy with a house
drink. Everybody knows this guy's name,

807
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:27.559
Everybody knows what he drinks when he
comes into the bar and he has a

808
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:31.039
crowd gathered around him. This is
not the five or I six guy you

809
01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:37.079
want to hire. Okay, you
know, so that's the that's the piano

810
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:42.840
player right now, the guy who's
who's really the I five, I six

811
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.239
guys pushing a broom? Okay,
you know what I mean, that's what

812
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:49.960
he's all about. I mean the
word clandestine means something, Yeah, it

813
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.000
does, it actually does. So
all right, so car am I,

814
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:58.360
where where's Let's let's bring this to
a to a head, if you will,

815
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:04.119
because I think this is a worthy
discussion. But again people jump the

816
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:09.559
conclusions and they you know, confabulate
things there together and they make these composites

817
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:15.039
out of stuff. You're sending a
message that's not the CIASMO. You know,

818
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:17.000
you're able to get in with a
guy at a very particular time.

819
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:21.920
He got a very suspicious individual who's
coming in and out, who doesn't even

820
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:25.360
bitch about it afterwards, looks to
me like, you know, yeah,

821
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:30.719
he what else can you do when
you have all the facts of the crime

822
01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:35.559
scene pointing to one person, only
one person has access and the fore knowledge.

823
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:37.800
Oh another thing that they had to
have fore knowledge to know there was

824
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:44.199
a recessed door that was partially closed
that obstructed the body's view from the stairs.

825
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.599
So they even knew that at certain
point the stairs you could see the

826
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:50.119
body. So if they just pulled
this recess stor just a little bit farther

827
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.559
to be harder, and it would
take a little longer to find him.

828
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.679
Yeah, So you had to have
intricate knowledge of the gien Kanna home.

829
01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:00.960
You had to have intricate knowledge that
Sam always left the back door and locked

830
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:04.400
all a certain time. You had
to know you could come and go through

831
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:07.360
the back without being seen. You
had to know that the air conditioner was

832
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.199
loud, that there was soundproofing.
It's too much to be a quinn.

833
01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:14.880
Someone has to know these things,
and there's only a couple of people that

834
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:21.719
do. And Dominic Blasi is the
only enforcer who is present with him during

835
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:27.719
the short window of roughly twenty minutes, right and again and again, when

836
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:30.840
you have the associated weapons, right, I mean, you know, come

837
01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:32.199
on, yeah, when the weapons
come from the mob, when there's no

838
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:37.000
talk of revenge, when a Cardo
and Ayuba are pleased by a job well

839
01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:40.719
done, quote well done, right, right, so you know they're not

840
01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:45.039
sending thank you notes to the CIA
for a job well done. Yes,

841
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:49.840
same, yeah, okay, anyway, well and and like we discussed earlier,

842
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:52.039
Ny, I think Johnny Roselli really
turns it for me. Were people

843
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:57.239
who want to say it's it's not
because if they were going to kill someone,

844
01:02:57.280 --> 01:02:59.599
they would have killed the person with
the most intelligence, and that was

845
01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:04.440
Johnny. They would have taken him
out before he could testify. Not Gana

846
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:07.639
Jenkanna was a threat to the mob, the Chicago Mafia, and a Cardo

847
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:12.679
had to deal with him quickly because
if they didn't Let's say that he would

848
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.880
have been successful and he'd started to
regain some of his territory, and then

849
01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:20.039
people like Rosselli and Nicoletti went hard
to back him. They could push out

850
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:24.159
Akrdo and whoever he wanted to be
the successor exactly. So there you have

851
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:28.559
it, U. It looks like
the means, the motive, and the

852
01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:34.079
opportunity all seemed to fall elsewhere,
not with the agency, not with the

853
01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:37.960
you know, the FBI or whatever. You don't have a government agency here

854
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:40.920
behaving like this, I'm just saying. And clearly, even though there's a

855
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:45.400
guy that you know, was mixed
in with people who worked with government agencies,

856
01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:50.440
that is not his primary job.
And again the aftermath, the way

857
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:53.159
people behave, Like I said,
if it was something that they were blindsided

858
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:59.119
by because the agency took care of
this guy, you would have seen the

859
01:03:59.119 --> 01:04:03.000
static of what the hell just happened
to our guy, Sam, You know

860
01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:08.079
what I mean? You would well, And I just wanted to mention too,

861
01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:11.559
you know, as you guys,
when we brought up Johnny Roselli's murder,

862
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:15.280
that wouldn't have just been a Chicago
thing. They would have needed permission

863
01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:19.599
from trafficante or the order had to
come from traffic Conte to take out Johnny

864
01:04:19.639 --> 01:04:25.880
Roselli. That's in his territory,
Yeah exactly, because you can't be doing

865
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:30.679
that when it's somebody, Yeah exactly, it's outside of Chicago. So this

866
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:35.239
goes beyond a Cardo to go get
Rosselli if you want to, Yeah,

867
01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:39.400
if you want to take out all
of his which is crazy that they're still

868
01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:43.159
trying. I mean, I don't
we can't say for sure about Rosselli,

869
01:04:43.519 --> 01:04:46.599
but certainly Giencanna and certainly Nicolette.
But to me, it amazes me that

870
01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:50.360
they were still killing people in seventy
seven and Sam was dead in seventy five.

871
01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:55.440
Yeah, right, And look,
there's a lot of reasons why somebody

872
01:04:55.480 --> 01:04:58.719
might have wanted to try and get
rid of these guys. Anyway. Okay,

873
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:01.920
so there's many possible motives, but
you know, what looks good,

874
01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:06.519
looks good. So anyways, what
else, excuse me, what else do

875
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:10.360
we need to know? Carmine and
Mike, do you have any final questions

876
01:05:10.360 --> 01:05:14.159
here? Oh? No, you're
doing a good job covering at all.

877
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:18.800
Okay, So I'm glad you guys
help The audience enjoyed it, and yeah,

878
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.599
I will We'll let you know.
I'm probably gonna work more on this

879
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:25.880
case. It's definitely, you know, try to find out every little bit

880
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:28.719
that I possibly can, try to
expand what we know as much as possible.

881
01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:31.159
But it certainly it's a step in
the right direction. And you know,

882
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:33.559
now we actually know where the murder
weapon came from, which I think

883
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:39.079
opens up you know, all the
other mob connections and why the FBI hit

884
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:43.440
it, which shouldn't be overlooked as
well. Once again, the FBI is

885
01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:49.599
hiding illegal activities by its informants because
it doesn't want them associated with the bureau,

886
01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:53.639
right right, And as I said, it's not just about the mafia

887
01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:57.519
here, it's about any organized situation. The Klan comes to mind first,

888
01:05:57.559 --> 01:06:01.599
but it's not the only two places
this goes on. I would even say

889
01:06:01.599 --> 01:06:05.239
that some of the violence that erupted
among activists, even the you know,

890
01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:11.079
like let's just go with the Black
Panthers and the various you know, organizations

891
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.199
that were connected to that, and
you have some violence going back and forth

892
01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:17.519
here. The FBI doesn't want you
to know that some of these guys were

893
01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:23.119
their people, you know, who
were participating in this anyway, So all

894
01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:25.800
that having been put out there,
what is the link that they can go

895
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:30.639
to at tepok tpaak dot com,
which, by the way stands for two

896
01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:32.880
Princes and a King, which happens
to be the title of Carmine's book,

897
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:38.440
which is a concise review of three
assassinations from the nineteen sixties, which I

898
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:42.880
didn't mention before but need to mention
it now. And I recommend that book

899
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:47.480
as well, just like I recommend
Mike's books. But at teapoktpaak dot com,

900
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.679
what is the headline of the article
there? I'm going to put in

901
01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:56.800
the show notes for you guys out
there to follow along and read afterwards.

902
01:06:56.840 --> 01:07:00.199
But what is it comline? It's
the Death and Time of a Gangster Part

903
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:05.239
two. There you go, and
it was a part two years in the

904
01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:09.719
making because they were the original one, I believe twenty sixteen or seventeen about

905
01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:14.800
Johnny Rozselli. Just another unsolved mafia
murder that people always attribute some link to

906
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:17.519
the DFK case. There you go, and look, you had to put

907
01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:20.239
the files aside, and it took
a little time to get back to it,

908
01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:24.480
and you ended up with a big
stack of stuff. So sometimes these

909
01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:28.760
things take time and definitely well worth
the wait. So more to come,

910
01:07:28.840 --> 01:07:32.000
slowly but surely exactly. I got
to wait through them. More to come

911
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:38.440
and who knows what else is in
the files but tpaak dot com and once

912
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:43.559
again the the what is the title
of the article again the Death in Times

913
01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:46.760
of a Gangster? The Death and
Times of a Gangster Part two, And

914
01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:50.599
like I said, I have that
noted and I already have the links there.

915
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:54.559
I put it in the live Chatroomadochelli
dot com, thanks, which you

916
01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:58.440
can always roll back, but it'll
also be in the show notes with this

917
01:07:58.519 --> 01:08:00.840
podcast meanwhile, and in there,
yeah, oh, I just want to

918
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:03.679
say real quick in there at the
end of the article and the references are

919
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:06.559
all the NARA numbers. All you
have to do is just copy and paste

920
01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:11.480
that number into Google and it'll take
you to the National Archives. You can

921
01:08:11.679 --> 01:08:14.159
whatever. I don't have a link, you can look at yourself. There

922
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:16.600
you go, so you can examine
the documentation for yourself, because he's given

923
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:21.439
you the NAR references. Anyway,
Mike Swatson, again, glad to have

924
01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:25.159
you along. I know you didn't
put much in on this one, but

925
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:29.760
this was definitely educational. I would
say, how do you feel about it?

926
01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:32.680
I enjoyed this, and I think
Carmi did some solid work here to

927
01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:39.800
put a realistic context and spin on
this thing that people speculate about regarding the

928
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:43.439
Kennedy case all the time. What
do you think about it, Mike?

929
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:49.479
Oh, for sure, I think
it's well worth people's time to go back

930
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:54.039
and listen to this show. Hopefully
it'll be you know, archived on the

931
01:08:54.039 --> 01:08:58.239
internet. People will do that because, as you said, it's something that

932
01:08:58.279 --> 01:09:06.199
comes up quite free, these deaths
that happened to Ginkan and Rosselli and a

933
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:10.720
few others in the nineteen seventies,
right, And it's always a guarantee that

934
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:15.760
these guys are on the list of
inconvenient deaths. I see it every week.

935
01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:18.279
Every week I see this, and
they try to put one hundred and

936
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:21.359
fifty people on there, and some
of them didn't die until nineteen eighty six,

937
01:09:21.800 --> 01:09:25.760
but you know, they needed to
get him out of the way anyway.

938
01:09:25.880 --> 01:09:30.119
Yeah, those generational hit squads.
Apparently generational hit squads. That's hilarious.

939
01:09:31.439 --> 01:09:34.760
Perfect. But you know what,
sometimes you can read articles like that

940
01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:40.079
at Wall Street window dot com because
it's not just about Wall Street but but

941
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:44.239
not that often occasionally Carmine contributes over
there, so you never know. But

942
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:47.000
anyway, be in the no go
to Wallstreet Window dot Com. And although

943
01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:51.039
Mike is not going to write about
this kind of stuff in his book on

944
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:58.479
Vietnam, you know, who knows, maybe one day he'll consult Carmine or

945
01:09:58.520 --> 01:10:03.079
collaborate with Carmine on his is a
definitive JFK book that I imagine that Swanson

946
01:10:03.079 --> 01:10:05.680
could write about, you know,
a few years from now, what he's

947
01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:10.399
done with his Vietnam series. But
here I am telling you what to write

948
01:10:10.399 --> 01:10:14.159
next, Mike, what do you
think of that? Well, they need

949
01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:15.960
to come out there you go,
and it'd be great to see that.

950
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:19.000
Look, I love the way Mike
writes. So again The War State and

951
01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:26.560
Why the Vietnam War both books I
recommend by Michael Swanson, Wallstreet Window dot

952
01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:30.520
Com. Sorry I studied stuttered there, Wallstreet Window dot Com the website and

953
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:35.920
Carmine Sabistano. Two Princes and a
King okay again, the concise review of

954
01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:41.920
three assassinations from the nineteen sixties,
the two princes being, of course JFK

955
01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:47.359
and HARFK, and the King being
doctor Martin Luther King Junior and obviously Carmine

956
01:10:47.560 --> 01:10:51.640
you know somehow crams that all into
one book, but you can definitely check

957
01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:56.000
that out. I recommend that as
well. So there you have at Carline

958
01:10:56.000 --> 01:11:00.399
Sabastano and Mike Swanson with me here
on a Thursday. And I think this

959
01:11:00.560 --> 01:11:04.920
qualifies as a We used to call
this Sinister History Night on the Ocelly Effect,

960
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:10.520
but uh, maybe we'll get to
another myths episode soon and who knows

961
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:15.760
what else we might do next.
So no matter who has history, yeah,

962
01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:17.520
it does. So no matter who
you are, where you are,

963
01:11:17.560 --> 01:11:20.479
when you are, remember this.
Uh. And I'm glad that Mike Swanson

964
01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:46.960
and Carli Sabastano were with me.
But oh, Chili dot Com, window,

965
01:11:47.119 --> 01:12:00.159
dott Gold Silver, the stock market
window, dot dot you're invested deeply.

966
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:04.760
Perhaps you're not in deep enough.
Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall

967
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:10.800
Street, windows on condos on com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of

968
01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:15.600
the War State, understood these trends
professionally for many years, and now he

969
01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:23.680
gives you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall Street streamno dot go there,

970
01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:30.600
now go there, now go there
now dot Com Radio network, revelation through

971
01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:31.960
conversation, Holocaust