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Oh, and welcome to the show
this evening. I'm Martin willis your host,

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and our guest is John Michael Greer. He has known out there is

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j MG, so I'll probably be
calling that here and there. Um.

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He has a very interesting and comprehensive
background. We're going to be talking about

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that. He has written another book. Actually, I think he might have

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said too, I'm not one hundred
percent. I just talked to him about

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it on UFOs and the UFO Chronicles, and I think one was just called

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the UFO Phenomenon. Now he has
a book, his latest one out of

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fifty books he's written, and this
one's called the UFO Phenomenon, Fact,

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Fantasy and Disinformation. Wow. I
like actually speaking to people who that are

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into a variety of topics and they
kind of veer over into this very interesting

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one. I like to hear what
they have to say about it. So

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I believe this is going to be
an interesting show. Don't forget to check

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out our website Podcast UFO, And
while you're there, you can check out

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this week's blog by Charles Lear and
it's called UFO. UFOs and Automotive Interference

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in leveland Texas, a lot of
people out there realize that this is a

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common thing that'll interfere maybe electromagnetica,
who knows what it is. But there

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are a lot of cases like this. But this happened back in November of

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nineteen fifty seven, actually November second
and third in nineteen fifty seven, and

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it's a great it's a great blog. Check it out. Also, as

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I mentioned before, if you are
on our podcast feed where we get your

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podcasts, if you are on there, you get an audio blog about midweek,

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and so I encourage people to read
the blog, of course because there's

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all kinds of links in them,
but you'll get an audio blog read by

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the author himself, Charles Lear,
so it'll be writing your podcast feed.

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A few things about future shows.
If you have not watched the body Language

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panel on YouTube about people in the
UFO field, I highly recommend it.

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There are some great episodes, and
they've looked into some note to people in

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their UFO stories, and that panel
is most likely going to be on next

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week, the Panel of four.
This is where it gets tricky though.

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They do what they do on Tuesday
nights, and that's the only time they've

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been able to coordinate them all all
four to get together, but we're going

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to try to work something out.
But that will be between on YouTube live

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somewhere between Friday and Monday night.
It will not be on Tuesday night unfortunately.

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The regular time. However, we
will have the audio file over to

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KGr A Radio and we'll also have
the podcast come out at the usual time.

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But if you want to get a
notification on when that show is going

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to play live, if you'd like
to be in live and participate in chat

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and phone calls and all that.
So the way I would suggest to do

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that is you go either to my
website podcast ufo dot com and on the

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right sidebar, you will see a
mailing newsletter. You just pop your email

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in there, click on the link, click on it, and you will

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get a link in you that will
be sent to you in your email to

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confirm it as as simple as that, and you'll get our weekly newsletter and

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it'll tell what time that is,
what time and day that'll be playing.

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Or you also can subscribe to the
YouTube channel and you want to click on

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that little bell that's right next to
the subscribe button. That bell will send

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you notifications an email of what and
when things are playing, and if it

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gets annoying, you can always click
the bell again and that that will shut

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it off. As I mentioned,
it'll be out. The podcast will be

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out on the regular time now.
If they just can't get this together and

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can't make the show next week,
I will have a family member of the

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Kelly Hopkinsville encounter at the regular time. So I just had that as a

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backup, So that will be that
will be coming up now. If you

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watch Netflix Unsolved Mysteries the Berkshire UFO, I love that. And coming up,

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we have this gentleman on YouTube,
you Cancy Tom Warner. I's going

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to be on in the Berkshire UFO. Get I recently got him connected to

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Philip Mannell. He's writing a he
wrote a book and it looks good that

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Philip's going to be publishing that and
great guy. I've spoken to him on

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the phone and so he will be
on September first, that's the fifty first

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anniversary of that incident. So anyway, for some reason, my screen has

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frozen. I'm going to have to
take myself out here in a minute.

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And and yes, I have to
remove myself from the screen for a minute.

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I'm not sure how that happened,
but no calls tonight. I'm sorry,

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we just we just can't take calls
the way we had to have our

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guests on this evening. However,
in the chat room, if you want

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to pose a question, I might
miss it, So please use all caps

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for any questions that you have,
and I'll be sure to if it's an

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interesting enough question, I'll be sure
to ask our guest that question. Getting

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back to podcast ufo dot com,
we have our Patreon link over there,

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and I have done this painting.
I think this is going to be my

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last UFO painting. For a while, I lived out in the Mill Valley

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area in California, actually a town
called Tiberon, and I used to drive

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by this mountain. It's called Mount
tam Lepius, our Mount Tam everyone calls

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it Mount Tam. So this is
a triangle UFO flying not over the mountain,

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but between the mountain and the and
myself as I would have painted.

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I actually painted this on location and
just added the UFO to it. I

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think I think it's an interesting painting, so I hope you enjoy that that

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It's not even up on our website
on my website yet, but if you

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go to podcast ufo dot com and
on the sidebar and you click the paintings

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little banner there. It'll shoot you
over and this should be up there in

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the next couple of days on the
website. That is enough for me,

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and welcome to the show, John
Michael Creer. Well, thank you.

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It's a pleasure to be on.
Yes, well, I think you are

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a very interesting guy. I'm working. I'm just trying to get these things

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down here just a second. Here
we go, and I have to what

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I have to do. If you
could introduce yourself, I actually have to.

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I have to take myself out of
the stream and back in again because

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I'm frozen. So if you could
go ahead and introduce yourself and I'll be

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right back. Okay, I'm John
Michael Greer, as as our host just

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said. I'm a writer and a
blogger and a researcher into a variety of

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strange things, like I'm for many
many of our listeners out there. I

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got interested in everything weird when I
was a kid, when the world was

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just obviously the world that I was
being told about by my teachers, parents,

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etc. Was way too one dimensional. It'll be true, So you

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know, I was a webwell eff
expert by age eleven. I read a

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lot of stuff a boy UFOs,
a lot of stuff out and explained phenomena

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of all kinds. Ended up getting
very deeply into occultism, and one thing

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followed another, I ended up with
a writing career, writing books on occultism,

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writing books on the future industrial society, writing, doing a weekly blog,

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all that, all the usual stuff
that you do if you want to

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make a living with your pen.
My research into UFOs began, of course,

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quite a long time ago. As
I mentioned, I read all kinds

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of stuff that was coming out in
the early nineteen seventies when I was a

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kid, when I was first getting
addressed in this stuff, and the conclusions

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that I came to. It took
a long time for me to figure out

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what I think is actually going on
here. The conclusions that I've come to

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are very different from those that are
circulated either among the UFO believer community or

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among the shall we call them the
pseudoskeptics, the people who insist that anything

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they themselves didn't see can't exist.
I hope, I hope that nobody will

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be too upset by my conclusions I
offer them, you know, as my

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conclusions. Your mileage may vary,
but this is what I've seen, this

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is what I've found, and I
think you'll plan the interesting. Yeah,

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and that's okay, like I've had, I've actually I'm not really sure what

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your conclusions are, but um,
I want to of course talk about them.

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And I'm not afraid actually, because
you know, I know a lot

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of people hold things really guarded.
But I'm just plain old interested in the

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topic and different people's thoughts on it. So I'm I'm excited to hear to

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hear that you had First, you
had the UFL I mean the UFL phenomenon,

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and actually after that you changed it
to the UFL Chronicles or what is

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the right titles. Yeah, that's
the new version. The uful Phenomenon was

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published quite a few years ago,
I think it was two thousand and nine,

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and that had kind of the first
draft of my argument conclusions, such

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evidence as I had been able to
gather at that point. After the publisher

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let it go out of print,
I placed it with another publisher and he

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said, this is great. Can
you expand it a year later, gotten

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much after your manuscript, with a
great deal of more information in it.

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M I didn't have to. I
actually didn't have to modify my conclusions,

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but I had I hoped them.
I've got some explanations for things that I

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had not that I have been still
scratching my head my head over, but

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it's been quite an adventure. And
the thing one of the things that I

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find most most baffling really about how
so many people relate to the UFO phenomenon

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is the idea that if it that
it has to be one of two things.

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Either UFOs are spacecraft from other worlds
or you never saw them, they

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didn't exist. That's a really odd
belief if you, if you've stoppen and

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think about it, why must it
be only one of those two things?

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Yeah? But are you right?
I mean a lot of people do feel

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that way, and unfortunately that's actually
in a way that's actually hurt. It's

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hurt the UFO field in general because
or even the word, you know,

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the word UFO, people think tinfoil
hats and you know, crazy people,

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and a lot of people now when
they want to talk about this subject,

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they're using the word UAP you know, and said just because of the stigma

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involved with the UFO, you know, the rolling of the eyes or whatever.

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Oh yeah, And the sad thing
is that the term UFO came into

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being as a replacement just the same
kind of thing for flying saucer because they

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were back in forty seven, forty
eight, forty nine, flying saucer was

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the term that everyone used and that
got the eye rolls. And then of

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course the UFO investigating community came up
with the idea of UFO unidentified flying objects

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something in the air we can't identify. Nice. But then, of course,

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you know, the same the same
dynamic played out. I suspect twenty

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thirty forty years from now, UAP
is going to get the eye roll.

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Well, let's come up with something
else. Yeah. Well, I don't

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know. It feels like the it
feels like this a lot of progress in

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UM in this you know, this
topic. You know, maybe I'm wrong,

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but you know, when you get
the government to actually UM take an

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accountability for UM, you know,
their studies and now you know a task

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force is being developed, you know, from the Pentagon through the Navy UM

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to study study UFOs, what they
are and stuff like that. So it

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feels like there's forward movement lately.
UM. For the last few years,

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there there may be there. Maybe
I just remind you this has happened before.

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Yes, yes, it has,
the whole over the whole product bluebook

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fiasco. UM. I would argue
that there's a reason for that, and

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that UM in particular, the investigators
who have realized the government is hiding something

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and they're heavily involved in this whole
business, they're actually onto something very very

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important. That's that's part of my
part of my argument here, that you

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know, there are mysterious things in
the sky. They people are seeing things,

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and they're are some of them are
really quite strange, and the government

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is into it up to their eyeballs. But of course, what what I've

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been led to, what I've been
led to, the conclusion I've reached as

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a result of my studies is that
there's something that it's not what it's being

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claimed to be. It's not what
it's being presented. And this whole notion

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that it has to be a little
green man from the leader, a little

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gray manfroms that to Articulie, or
it can't exist at all, is part

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of the camouflage. So I don't
I don't want to jump totally into the

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conclusion in the show's all over everything. So I want to I want to

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you know, I want to,
uh, you know, hear the pieces

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of it, UM, and and
how you came upon your conclusions. Let's

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let's do that, Okay. The
first thing that we can do this with

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a little bit historically, okay,
UM, we can start with the genesis

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of the of the the flying saucer. You know, there's the original nineteen

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forty seven sighting UM and the flurry, the wave of sightings that followed immediately

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thereafter, because it wasn't just you
know, the one guy in the airplane.

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UM. In the days immediately following
his sighting, people all across America

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were looking up and noticing little silver
dots moving through the sky. Many of

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the photographed. In fact, if
you go back to old newspapers sometimes you

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can find reproductions of the photographs.
It's quite interesting, little silver dots moving

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always west east. And of course
it was in the middle of that of

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the whole the Ross Welton popped up
and the UM, the or the Army,

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the Army Air Corps it was then
the Air Force didn't quite exist yet,

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announced that a flying saucer had crashed. And then somebody turned around and

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said no, no, no,
nothing like that, and people immediately said,

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oh, they have something to hide. Indeed they did. So that

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was that. That was kind of
the seed time. That was it is

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the beginning of the whole thing,
and it caused a great deal of talk,

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a great deal of concern. It
faded out for a while. People

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weren't saying anything except here and there, you'd have somebody would see something odd

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in the sky. Then okay,
We're moving on to about the early nineteen

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fifties, nineteen fifty two with the
next really big flap, and all of

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a sudden, people are seeing things
all over the place. There's a big

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sighting over Washington, DC. Things
are being tracked on radar, and the

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Air Force is making all kinds of
claims about no, no, there's nothing

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there, and then leaking stuff about
how there's you here are these radar things.

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There was a there was a regulation
past, a federal regulation which applied

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to all military personnel, airline pilots, and a variety of other people who

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were subject to certain national security regulations. And this rule had put a ten

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year prison term for leaking information of
UFOs. It was and I think within

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the nineteen eighties that was finally repealed. Now here's the fascinating thing. All

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of these airline pirrolets. Think of
the nash forton Burry sighting, some of

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these others air Force and their military
personnel. Lots of these people who were

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reporting UFOs. None of them were
ever charged under that regulation. So very

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clearly, something curious is going along
here. You don't slap that kind of

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draconian penalty and then don't use it. So what was going Okay? So

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nineteen fifty four, the UFOs are
all over the place. People could go

214
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out. In the late fifties and
early sixties, people could go out in

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certain areas for you, off the
watching parties. You would sit down and

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toward the toward evening and get a
couple of beers, park yourself on a

217
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hill and watch the sky. And
sooner or later you see this little dot

218
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which would fly past, or would
turn, it would glint. You couldn't

219
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really see it clearly because it was
way up in the sky, but they

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were very predicable. These finally they
were. People could watch them very easily.

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And all the time, of course, the UFO research community was getting

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going. You had nightcap um,
you had um Oh, there were there

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00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,599
a couple. I'm not forgetting the
acronyms just at the moment, but there

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were there were a variety of the
early very influential UFO research organizations, and

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all of them were staffed by spooks. They were full of people from the

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US intelligence community or US intelligence assets
who nobody would you know who, who

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00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:32,279
were not necessarily known as such.
Um, you had, you know,

228
00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:37,160
some very influential people um in the
UFO scene who were in fact um working

229
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,839
for the working for the CIA or
one of the other things. At the

230
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same time, you have the emergence
of the skeptic scene and people like Donald

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00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:51,160
Menzellen so on, and they're all
full of spooks too. So you know,

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the you started, you start to
get an idea of what's going on

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here. It is not necessarily what
it appears to be. The intelligence community

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and the military and the US are
all over it, and there are things

235
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in the sky. Now, let's
take a step back. What was actually

236
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going on in the sky at that
time that nobody wanted to talk about,

237
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and this is where we start getting
the conclusions. In nineteen forty seven,

238
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the US was conducting secret high altitude
balloon tests. We now know about them.

239
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They've been declassified Product Mogul, product
flying cloud habit of others. They

240
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were. They appeared when you saw
them, like a little silver dot in

241
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the air, moving from right,
moving from from west to east, following

242
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,559
the jet stream. Okay, there
were Product Mogul in particular was balloons with

243
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these big structures to catch found.
The goal was to snoop on secret Russian

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nuclear tests, and all of a
sudden everyone's talking about UFOs. Nineteen fifty

245
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,519
four and thereafter, the U two, the most secret air plane in the

246
00:18:55,599 --> 00:19:00,240
in the world at that time,
the most high altitude plane at that time,

247
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was flying at an altitude where people
nobody believed interplance could go. We

248
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now think of U two's as painted
black, because they are. Back in

249
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those days, they were barre aluminum. At sunrise or sunset, you see

250
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one of us in the sky,
it blazes like a bright red orange light.

251
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And that was what people were going
out and seeing on their UFO watching

252
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parties. Okay, the SR seventy
one was being tested at the same time,

253
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utterly secret. The first couple of
generations of US spy satellites. Now

254
00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:36,240
back in three years before the beginning
of the UFO thing. World War two

255
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:40,119
D Day is coming on, and
the US, the US military in the

256
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,240
British military between and cooked up one
of the biggest hoaxes in the history of

257
00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:51,880
warfare, manufacturing a fake army right
across the English Channel from the Particulai,

258
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,160
the one particular part of France,
to convince the Germans that that's where they

259
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,039
were going to invade, and of
course they moved their actual armies for their

260
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western invaded in Normandy. They faked
up the Germans completely. They had inflatable

261
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,519
tanks, they had non existent military
units, they had teams of actors designed

262
00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:11,160
to make themselves look really busy to
confuse earlier reconnaissance. It was brilliant.

263
00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:18,119
That same pattern of thought, I
argue, is what guided the manufacture of

264
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:25,599
the UFO phenomenon. Basically, we
need to hide these things from the Russians.

265
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,799
What are we going to do what
We can't pretend there's nothing in the

266
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:30,519
air. Okay, there's obviously something
here. I know, let's convince everyone

267
00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:36,440
there's little green men from Mars and
that. I am convinced that's not all

268
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,599
that's going on with THEO phenomenon.
There are one of the great problems with

269
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the phenomenon is that it's not just
one thing. There's a variety of things

270
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,119
happening. But one of the core
elements of the story is the US Air

271
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Force intelligence in particular has been playing
this thing from the beginning as a way

272
00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,400
to cover up its own its own
activities and to cover up what we're testing

273
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,680
in the air. Here's another example
you mentioned, trying us. Do you

274
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,519
remember when those first showed up?
Yeah? There, Well, Dave Marler

275
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,480
is what who do you consider the
expert. There have been some that have

276
00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:15,119
showed all the way back I believe
in the early twentieth century, um as

277
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far as UM, as far as
the masses of them starting um, the

278
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,000
late nineteen seventies. UM, I
know you know a few people personally that

279
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,079
I've seen them, Like in nineteen
seventy eight, there were a few of

280
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,839
them. There were a few of
them the very late in nineteen seventies.

281
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,119
They really took off in the nineteen
eighties. What other Black Triangle was suddenly

282
00:21:38,519 --> 00:21:44,920
was was of top secret military importance
in the right about that time, stealth

283
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,079
technology. Yeah, I thought you're
going to say that. Um. Now

284
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,079
I do want to I do want
to pause you right there though for a

285
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,279
minute, ahead, go ahead,
I know I can do. I tend

286
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,559
to get excited and run go ahead. Um. Well, there's a lot

287
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:03,000
of cases that something like this doesn't
fit so and and that's what I just

288
00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:06,680
want to bring up, and that
is, you know, for instance,

289
00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:12,279
thousands of people saw the Phoenix lights
and that was miles miles wide, not

290
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:17,839
you know, multiple miles wide,
and a lot of people say the same

291
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,480
thing. You know, maybe there
is a technology where they can float with

292
00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:26,839
no sound and like anti gravity or
whatever it is they're doing. And uh,

293
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,880
but when something is massive, you
know, I just can't see.

294
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,200
And a lot of people are claiming
to see things you know, at least

295
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:41,119
several hundred yards wide and longer and
wider um. So that that's where it

296
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,240
just is a puzzle. And uh, go on, go on. No

297
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,599
that that that that doesn't fit a
lot of where I think you're going.

298
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,599
Well again, one of the that's
that's why I make the crucial point view

299
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,880
of the UFO phenomenon is not just
one thing. Yeah, it's basically what

300
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:07,039
we've got going on here is a
situation where there is let's let's let's talk

301
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:11,359
about let's let's say there's a social
phenomenon called the UFO. We all have

302
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,000
that image of the flying saucer in
our minds. Um, We've all we

303
00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,720
all grew up at this point with
the idea of little green men and flying

304
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,480
saucers from Mars or what have you, as part of our culture, part

305
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,920
of one of our cultural myths,
if you will. And so around that

306
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,720
set of images, various different groups
of people have been manipulating those things.

307
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,759
And there may be other things entirely
unrelated to UM people that also have something

308
00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:41,640
to do with this. One of
the things that I think has really gotten

309
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:48,440
misplaced in the whole um the recent
UFO researcher generally, again, it's getting

310
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,680
stuck in that notion that that a
UFO has to be an alien spacecraft or

311
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,000
it never existed at all. Back
in the nineteen fifties, there were there

312
00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:59,720
was a lot of much more um, much more flexible, much more open.

313
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,640
You know, what could these things
be? Um? There were there

314
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,039
were there were several people who proposed
they might be living things from the upper

315
00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:12,640
atmosphere. There were UM, there
were theories that they were coming from the

316
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:18,799
oceans. Ivan Sanderson wrote a fascinating
book about that, and broadly speaking,

317
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,759
UM, I think I think in
some ways in those days we were closer

318
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:27,160
to the answers precisely because people were
not stuck on one answer for everything.

319
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,400
The thing that I've been talking about, the series of disinformation campaigns carried out

320
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:40,599
first by US military intelligence and then
more generally as other countries got into the

321
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,240
got into the stick. Um,
that's one important thread. It's not the

322
00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:48,759
whole story, but it's a very
important thread. And watching if you watch

323
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,799
some of the important cases, like
the whole Paul Benefits thing. Um,

324
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:59,000
it was said the way he was
said, disinformation by Air Force intelligence at

325
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,200
literally sane ended up in a because
they just they fit him, all of

326
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,720
this bizarre paranoiac stuff, all of
which ended up getting retailed into the broader

327
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:12,519
UFA community. Um. That's a
classic example. Um. The evidence that

328
00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:15,079
I've found that I covered in my
book shows that what happened there is a

329
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,599
benewits. Without without realizing it,
he was trying to research UFOs, he

330
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:25,160
actually ended up snooping on um top
secret project that's at the Sandy Laboratories.

331
00:25:25,759 --> 00:25:30,000
And so the intelligence services said,
I know how to fix this, and

332
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:36,759
proceeded to say, to feed him
gibberish until he cracked, so he so

333
00:25:36,839 --> 00:25:40,400
they could distract him from what was
actually going on. And so that's a

334
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,240
great example of again one of the
threads that's going on here. Um.

335
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,799
But the thing is, it's a
weird there's a whole UFO thing. It's

336
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,400
very strange, and it's never it's
not you can't just flat it out into

337
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,240
a single answer. Yes, I
think that's kind of one of the things

338
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,759
that keeps me really fascinated by it
because you know, I've said many times

339
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,440
in the show, I feel like
I know less than when I started,

340
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,720
you know, almost nine years ago. But because it is and I do

341
00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:15,279
agree one hundred percent, there isn't
just one answer, and there could be

342
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,039
many answers, and they could be
answers to some of it we wouldn't even

343
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:23,680
understand. That's a very good point. Going back to the triangles though,

344
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:30,200
you were going somewhere with that about
the stealth the stealth fighters, okay,

345
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,000
stealth fighter, sealth bomber, a
couple of other airplanes that are still top

346
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,039
secret, of the t R three
black Man to which technical reconnaissance and the

347
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,160
the SR ninety two Aurora, another
big big triangular stealth plane. It's been

348
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,960
sighted a couple of times. No
one's managed to photograph it yet, but

349
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,519
respected authorities say that it exists.
It doesn't get out much because it uses

350
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:59,759
extremely complex, extremely expensive technology.
It takes like a million dollars a flight

351
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,799
to keep that puppy in the air, so we don't see much of it.

352
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,079
Do you remember when the SR seventy
one was retired and it's spent about

353
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:10,880
it not about ten years being modeled, and then all of a sudden we

354
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,400
were using SR seventy ones again.
That's when the Aurora finally became It became

355
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,240
obvious the Aura was simply too expensive
to use. So we have these stealth

356
00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:25,640
planes, but we also have these
black triangles that kind of drift slowly by

357
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,319
and not much more than tree top
level. Maybe you know, some people

358
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,799
listening here a very faint and buzz
as those a small engine is going.

359
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,599
Other people don't hear anything at all. They're outline with lights. If you

360
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,279
get a good view of them,
you may see a kind of framework and

361
00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:45,599
the lights are connected to what exactly
that is. It's a fascinating question,

362
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:51,000
But the US government has been doing
research into airships lighter than air airships for

363
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,200
quite some time now. And my
guess is what is what happens at least

364
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,960
some of those black triangles, That's
what they are. And are they actual

365
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,519
a military technology anything? You know, they're there to fake people out.

366
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,920
They're part of the cap They're like
the inflatable tanks around over So you get

367
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,799
you get basically a big airship with
a lot of bright lights and you cruise

368
00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,839
it over a freeway so a thousand
people see it. Okay, now we

369
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,160
have um let's call him bordhist bad
enough, we have a Russian spy.

370
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,960
He wants to find out about these
these weird these weird stories about black triangle,

371
00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:27,319
black triangular aircraft. What is what
is the US up to? And

372
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,880
most of what he hears about are
these slow floating things to go drifting over

373
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,759
you know, Westchester, New York
or what have you. Um, he's

374
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:40,319
going to be hopelessly confused. He's
not going to be able to get through

375
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,319
that, to the through that noise, to the signal, which is that

376
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:48,119
we've got a stealth we've got a
working stealth technology and they don't. So

377
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,400
it's always necessary in this, in
this sort of thing to say Okay,

378
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,799
who be faking what? And what
will what will they be covering by it?

379
00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:02,440
And so that's that's basically where I
was going there. We have the

380
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,799
stealth planes, the ones that are
that are publicly admitted, the ones that

381
00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:08,759
are still top secret. Um,
we have something else, which is of

382
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:14,279
course very secret, which is drifting
along a tree top level, freaking people

383
00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:18,480
out on highways and gathering crowds of
thousands, um, drawing as much attention

384
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,880
to itself as possible. You'll notice
that a lot of the the the slow

385
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,079
moving black triangle things, they go
out of their way to be seen.

386
00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:30,920
Yeah, I have to agree with
you. Um, you know a lot

387
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:36,039
of people will will you know,
make a suggestion, well, um,

388
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:42,200
they're military possibly you know, trying
to fly over populated areas, so um,

389
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,720
just to see what the public reaction
is. I've heard that. I've

390
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,599
heard that argument a number of times. Yeah, um, yeah, but

391
00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,720
I don't think it's just for the
public reaction, going no, no,

392
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,079
no, no, finish your thought
on that. And I have a question

393
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:57,119
I wanted to pull up on Chat. It's it's not it's not it's not

394
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,480
a public reaction. It's distract you
know, if you ever watch a stage

395
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:07,079
magician when he's about to do something
with his left hand, he makes these

396
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:10,079
big gestures with his right hand,
so everyone's looking at the right hand.

397
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,640
Nobody watches them pull the extra as
out of his pocket. That's what's going

398
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,759
on here. You have to source
the disinformation. Watch where things are coming

399
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:22,759
out. Now, again, this
will not solve the OUFO cases. But

400
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:25,240
if we can get the air force
out of the picture, if we can

401
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,039
figure out what has been manufactured,
is disinformation suite that aside with a better

402
00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,880
shot at understanding what's left of the
picture. Now, go on, You

403
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,319
got a question, Yeah, that
makes makes a lot of sense. I'll

404
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,359
say, Mary Grace has this question
for you. Those little this goes back

405
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:42,839
to what we were talking about earlier. You were talking about earlier, those

406
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:48,759
little shiny dots in the sky during
the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, they

407
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:55,440
have been the palladium spheres attached to
balloons. I'm not sure what palladium spheres

408
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,480
are actually, that's that's primarily.
Yes, the palladium is a rare metal

409
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:06,559
and um. They were using it
to coate various things in um in some

410
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,480
of the various secret tests that they
were doing. It's very reflective and so

411
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,200
um yeah, that actually is probably
one of the things that was spotted in

412
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,000
the nineteen the late ninety forties and
early nineteen fifties when we're doing all these

413
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:25,039
top secret balloon tests. So yes, yeah, yeah, Okay, Well

414
00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:29,319
again I'm going to keep an eye
on chat and uh and if I see

415
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:33,039
a good question, I'll pop that
in there and ask you. So all

416
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:38,759
right, and um, you know
I I you're right about also about the

417
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:42,599
triangles, as far as you know
what people have said. You know,

418
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,920
some people do hear the buzzing sound. Um. I also had a friend

419
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,559
that I was in contact with when
she was a young girl, about nine

420
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,480
or ten years old, and she's
in her thirties now, and she was

421
00:31:56,519 --> 00:32:01,559
in she lives in Australia, and
when she was out in the garden with

422
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:06,640
her I believe it was her grandmother, all of a sudden she felt this

423
00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:10,680
pressure, this pressure that like almost
forced her to the ground. She got

424
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,799
down on the ground and felt an
extreme pressure. Just the sky dark and

425
00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:19,759
and she looked up in a big, huge triangle was like floating over her

426
00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:24,160
without any noise, And that's what
got her fascinated in the topic. Now,

427
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:28,160
did her grandmother see the triangle?
Oh? Yeah, they both did.

428
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Yeah, Okay, okay, that's
one of the one of the things

429
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:35,559
that that also has to be peeled
out of the UFO phenomenon. One of

430
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:40,960
the other sources of interest is we
we as a society, American society,

431
00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:50,880
modern Western industrial society ignores human visionary
experience. Okay, people see things things

432
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,839
that are real on some plance,
certainly most you know, most other society

433
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,480
would say, well, you know, this is a spiritual thing, or

434
00:32:55,519 --> 00:33:02,279
this this belongs to to the other
world. Jacques Valat one, of course,

435
00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:07,359
one of the great UFO researchers,
his book Passport to Magonia, which

436
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:13,440
pointed out that an enormous amount of
well, certain aspect of UFO lore has

437
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,599
exact equivalent in medieval fairy lore,
come all the way down to abductions,

438
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,960
and you know, he just he
just sort of put up the parallels.

439
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,799
And this is something Patrick Harper in
his book Demonic Reality, which is a

440
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,200
must read. Frankly, he again
points out we don't live in the kind

441
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,880
of flat, two dimensional prosaic world
that we're taught we live in where we

442
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,799
live in a world that is interpenetrated
by strange things. And since most people

443
00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:46,240
in the industrial world have no way
of understanding that because they've been taught not

444
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:51,319
to. They've been taught a radically
incomplete view of what the world is.

445
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:55,000
If they have a visionary experience,
what are they going to think of it?

446
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,279
How are they going to interpret it? You know, this weird they

447
00:33:59,319 --> 00:34:02,599
watched this, your thing moved through
the sky. Um, you know two

448
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:06,599
thousand years ago somebody would have looked
as, oh, you know, spirits

449
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,320
are doing something or what have you. But they all they have to The

450
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,039
only explanation they have is wow,
that must have been aliens. No,

451
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,920
so that's that's another level of confumed
start go ahead. No, No,

452
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,800
I was I was agreeing with what
you were saying, that's all. Yeah.

453
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,360
Yeah, so you know that's another
that's another source of input. And

454
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,519
it's not I would stress, is
not a source of confusion. It's not

455
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:31,599
something we should ignore, we should
get away from. We should you know,

456
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,480
act like a skeptic and turn our
backs on what people are actually seeing.

457
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:42,599
Um, it's important in traditional societies
when strange things were seen in the

458
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,920
air, people paid attention to His
scholars noted governments said, Okay, what

459
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,719
does that mean, Because these kinds
of visionary experiences when they happen, they

460
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,239
have a message. They're not just
they're not just stuff that happens. Carl

461
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,360
Jung understand that, understood that very
well in his book On You. He

462
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:06,079
stressed that one way to understand them
was as as a visionary experience is something

463
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:10,159
that people were encountering the circular symbol
of unity at a time when the world

464
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:15,000
was divided down the middle between the
communists and is blocked in the West,

465
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:22,400
these classic symbols of polarity and harmony
at a time when nations were threatening to

466
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,079
blow each other up with nuclear bombs. And he basically psychoanalyzed the world using

467
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,440
UFOs as the dreams. And that's
another to my mind, that's a very

468
00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:37,119
important part of the whole riddle that
we need to understand that the UFOs are

469
00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:42,760
one of the places where prosaic experience
and visionary experience, with the inside of

470
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,199
our mind and the outside of our
mind flow together. And so that's one

471
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,519
of the things that makes it so
interesting to me. It's not just out

472
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,760
you know, the truth is not
just out there. The truth is inside

473
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,480
us. As well. Yeah,
Yeah, we had a guest on not

474
00:35:58,519 --> 00:36:02,079
that long ago, maybe a month
or two that was actually kind of going

475
00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:07,559
down the line where you're just talking
about, I have a question up here

476
00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:15,599
from Shawnee and how do you explain
the interference with ICBMs and are you familiar

477
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:20,960
with that that there has been you
know, reactions and actions of UFOs over

478
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,400
you know, military weapons and things
like that. The first thing to ask

479
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:31,480
yourself is where are you getting this
information from? In every case that I

480
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:35,920
don't know, you know, she
can correct me if I'm wrong here,

481
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,320
But in the case of that that
I know of, all of these reports

482
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:47,119
are coming out of the military from
military personnel. Now, military personnel who

483
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:52,599
speak about something like that without the
approval of their officers are going to end

484
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:54,920
up in whose game, So you
know that what they're saying is being improved

485
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,519
by their superiors. That's one of
the major sources of the disinf ration we

486
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:05,159
face, because you know, the
military is perfectly willing to have people say,

487
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:07,280
wow, that must have been from
outer space when they were testing something.

488
00:37:08,079 --> 00:37:14,679
Um, So always look for the
source. Where is this information coming

489
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,119
from, who is generating it,
who is putting it out there? Because

490
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:21,760
that's again that's where you see the
stage radician dips and through his pocket and

491
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,679
pull out the extra as Yeah,
you know, I don't know, you

492
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,519
know, I know I know someone
personally, UM, that I talked to

493
00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:32,920
now and then, and I just
can't see him as someone that would be

494
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,719
deceiving people all these years. And
there are some documents that to back up

495
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,079
some of these things too, that
have been um, you know, have

496
00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:49,880
been received through the Freedom of Information
ACTUM. And there's a there's a lot

497
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:55,440
going on when it comes to um
UFOs and nukes, even nuclear power plants,

498
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,880
you know, and you name it. There's there's quite a bit connected.

499
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:02,719
So that that that's a whole topic
that deserves a good look. And

500
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,880
my power plants or another matter,
because they're again many of those sightings have

501
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:10,360
not been personnel. Those have been
like neighbors, people in the area.

502
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,280
And that's another thing. And that's
so that there again look for your source.

503
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,679
No, I don't obviously I don't
know the person that you know,

504
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,760
I don't know, you know,
the basis for your assumption that they can

505
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,400
be trusted, um, you know, you may well be right, but

506
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:30,039
it's a complicated world out there.
And there are a lot of people playing

507
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,880
some very complicated games in it.
And okay, just in just in a

508
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,639
case like this, since we're on
this topic in particular, UM, I

509
00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:45,320
do understand like if there's a you
know, there's a military issue, um,

510
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,639
you know, a new craft that's
out or something like that that they

511
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,599
you know, they want to test
and they maybe want to get a reaction

512
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,400
or distract someone from seeing what.
I want to make sure those Russians in

513
00:38:54,440 --> 00:39:00,199
the Chinese don't figure out what it
is. So yeah, but then you

514
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:06,320
have, um, you know,
our weapons, according to some our weapons

515
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,599
are are messed with and altered.
And um this happened even in Russia,

516
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,519
not just here, you know,
it happened all over a lot of places

517
00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:19,079
in the country. Um, So
this happens. There's no just there's nothing

518
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:22,800
to distract anyone from. It doesn't
make sense that the military would make up

519
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:29,760
a story about something like this and
release something like this, because what could

520
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:35,679
be distracting. There's no there's no
secret stealth bomber that they're trying to hide.

521
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,360
When it comes to the you know, nuclear weapons being messed with,

522
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,559
well, actually we don't know that. We don't know what they are testing

523
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:52,039
in the way of for example,
UM anti missile defense systems. Okay,

524
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:54,719
now, the nuclear the nuclear reactors
are to my mind the more interesting one,

525
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,679
precisely because there it's not coming from
inside channel, so it's coming from

526
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,360
p from ordinary people who are simply
witnessing it. But UM, and you

527
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,679
know, I'll certainly I'll certainly reconsider
if I find if I find out that

528
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:15,840
UM reports of UFOs apparently messing with
ICBMs are coming from outside government channels.

529
00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:21,280
UM. Anything. The thing to
remember is anything that comes out of the

530
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,119
government has to be suspect. You
have to assume that they are you know,

531
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,400
they are telling you what they want
you to sink, not telling you

532
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,079
what they know. And we've seen
that so many times in so many places,

533
00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:37,800
and and that that skepticism toward anything
that comes out of the government,

534
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,440
especially when you know the the usual
gimmick the group of UM Air Force intelligence

535
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,199
officers who say, well, we're
members of a secret group that's the post

536
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:50,239
to UFO secrecy, and we're going
to pass onto you all these secrets.

537
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,800
And then we get the m J
twelve documents, we get the Project Aquarius

538
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,920
documents, we get the planets sur
prodocuments, um, all the same stuff.

539
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,400
M Well, UM, I do
I do have to tell you,

540
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,880
I two hundred percent agree with you
that, Um, you know, our

541
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:14,119
government doesn't is not always truthful.
There's many many cases of that. No,

542
00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:16,280
No, no government can ever be
truthful. They've always got secrets to

543
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,519
hide. And you know there are
there are valid secrets. I mean I

544
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:24,719
don't particularly want the Russians and the
Chinese to know exact everything we've got.

545
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:29,840
Um. That doesn't sound like a
very good idea to me. Um.

546
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,119
And every government also keeps harmful secrets. They want to conceal who's been dipping

547
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,840
their hands to the public till and
who wasted how much money on on such

548
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,320
and such project because they were trying
to you know, bang the group and

549
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,559
bang you know the wife of the
of the the industrialists or something. All

550
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:51,519
the all the the tacky little secrets
that every government ends up full of.

551
00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:53,960
Um. Yeah, No, governments
are always hiding things. The question is

552
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,159
how do we get past that?
And and you know, set those aside

553
00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:00,320
and say, okay, we can't
really trust that. What are our other

554
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,159
sources of information? And if we
can pursue the UFO phenomenon, that way

555
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,880
and pick it apart into the into
the different phenomena they're being lumped together here.

556
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:14,239
I think it's possible to make some
real headway. Yeah, very good.

557
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,159
Let's go back to way way back, and that is to Roswell.

558
00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:23,360
What's your opinion of Roswell? Okay, Roswell is a really complicated situation.

559
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:30,760
Um. So we know something happened
there, we know something crashed. Um.

560
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:37,920
Most of the published accounts UM have
been our frankly full of fiction.

561
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,639
And I include the skeptic accounts as
well as the believer accounts. If you

562
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,519
look at, for example, what
was the oh I'm forgetting the name of

563
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:52,360
the book in the early nineteen to
late ninety seventies that really putting Roswell on

564
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,119
the map in late nineteen seventies.
Oh yeah, I know what you mean.

565
00:42:55,199 --> 00:43:00,440
Now, let's and two more,
uh yeah more. Now, the

566
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,679
thing if the thing about that,
if you read that book and then you

567
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,000
go to the fake crash at Aztec, New Mexico, and that was a

568
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:10,679
complete that was a complete hoax that
was come up with a couple of by

569
00:43:10,679 --> 00:43:16,480
a couple of confidence. Man was
busted in the early nineteen fifties. Um,

570
00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:22,000
Burl's Moore at all took details from
the from the account of the Aztec

571
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:24,639
crash come up with with by those
the two con men, and put them

572
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,679
into their account of the Prosswell thing. They literally padded it out with material

573
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:36,880
from another source, and people have
been repeating that uncritically ever since. UM.

574
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,840
One of the real problems with the
whole the animosity between the skeptics and

575
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:45,760
the believers at this point, is
that both sides are become so focused on

576
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:51,239
trying to prove a point that they
don't do the necessary research. UM might

577
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,760
take this is now, this is
a tentative, this is this is quite

578
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,159
tentative. But my take is that
there was something that crash shot Roswell.

579
00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:02,239
It was probably one of the secret
balloon tests. I don't think it was

580
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,440
Project Mobile that was. That's the
one that's usually been credited, the one

581
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:14,159
with the big complicated huha that was
trying to detectum sound waves from from Russian

582
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:20,360
nuclear tests. There were several things
up there, several things being tested Highnammeister,

583
00:44:20,639 --> 00:44:24,199
and some of them remained secret to
this day. UM. I think

584
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,280
I know what one of them is. I don't know if this is what

585
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,239
was being tested at Roswell, but
or what crashed at Roswell during those of

586
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:37,800
those tests. But you've got to
put yourself in the in the mind space

587
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,159
of the late ninety forties, early
nineteen fifties, this is before icbams.

588
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:47,000
This is when nuclear weapons were delivered
by bomber and when American military planners were

589
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:51,840
petrified the thought of the Russians.
You know, the Russians have these huge

590
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,360
factories. They they're turning out bombers
at a fantastic base. They've got the

591
00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:00,400
nuclear bomb or in the in the
light late ninety forties, we're about to

592
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:06,000
get it. Everyone knew that,
and how do you stop them? We'd

593
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,840
seen in World War Two that fighter
planes can can stop a lot of bombers,

594
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,000
but they can't stop them all.
And the last you know, so

595
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:19,280
the nightmare of American strut planners in
those days was bomber streams coming over the

596
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,440
poll from Russia, each one carrying
a nuclear bomb, and how many of

597
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,480
them would get through. So the
response to that is a program. It

598
00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:28,679
was a project. I mean,
this is this in my theory. Okay,

599
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:34,000
there was a project, this is
fact called Operation Flying Cloud. Operation

600
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:38,000
Flying Cloud was a project that was
meant to loft atomic bombs on high altitude

601
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,719
balloons. Right now, that's crazy
for most purposes. You can't steer a

602
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,239
hile to do balloon. It goes
over, it wants to you. You

603
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,559
know, if you try to use
those from bomber Russia, you'd probably he's

604
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:57,239
likelyhead another country. But there's one
hideously effective use for that, lofting those

605
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,639
bombs into a bomber stream. If
you can imagine an atomic bomb, a

606
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:07,719
Hiroshima sized bomb, going off in
the middle of a bomber formation a mile

607
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,320
a second later, all those bombers
are scrapped, then their nuclear bombs are

608
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:16,960
blown to pieces. That's my theory
of what was behind a lot of a

609
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:22,480
lot of the balloon tests that are
still secret in the late nineteen forties and

610
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,159
run the nineteen fifties, especially run
nineteen fifty two. We had come up

611
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:29,599
with that at the last ditch emergency
defense in case the Russians attacked with nuclear

612
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:32,679
weapons, the case they sent those
bomber fleets, and it's still secret to

613
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,719
this day. A because it's still
a backup, it's still available, and

614
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,719
b because to make it work we
probably would have had to launch the balloons

615
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,880
of our Canada, and in other
words, what we're saying is we were

616
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,840
preventing nuke the Canadians in order to
save the United States. And can you

617
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:53,880
mentione the international scandal of that came
out. So basically, I don't know

618
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,400
if it was a Project Flying Cloud
thing that came the crash down or something

619
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,000
in the developmental stages of that that
they ended up crashing out Roswell. That's

620
00:47:01,039 --> 00:47:04,559
one theory. It might have been
Project Mogul, It might have been a

621
00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:07,840
balloon system one of the balloon tests
we haven't even heard about yet. But

622
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,199
that's my guess of what actually happened. And then what happened after that,

623
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,039
after Moore and Burlit's at all picked
up the Roswell thing, patted out with

624
00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:22,360
materials from the fate from the aspect
fraud, and ran with it, is

625
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,039
that that became another place for disinformation. That became another place for people who

626
00:47:27,119 --> 00:47:31,559
had connections to a US Air Force
intelligence could pad out the mythology and fill

627
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,519
fill in details and make it richer
and more laverage so people would look at

628
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:40,559
aliens and not at Project Flying Cloud. Well, well, here's my argument

629
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,880
for that. In particular, there's
feedback. I'm gonna just pull you out.

630
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:52,400
You'll be able to hear me.
So this uh, this, uh,

631
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:59,599
it doesn't fit because in a way
it doesn't fit. And that is

632
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:06,920
because when this came out that you
know, they captured a flying disc of

633
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,320
flying saucer and then they showed them
the balloon. They said it was just

634
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,519
a weather balloon, and all that
the story died. The story died for

635
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:22,679
many many years, and then witnesses
in the Roswell area were contacted when this

636
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:28,800
story became you know, uh back
into the stream, and so they were

637
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:34,679
contacted you know directly, and former
military and retired military and all that.

638
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,840
So I don't see where you're talking
about the Aztec crash how that could have

639
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,719
got mixed in since you know,
there were a few years apart, and

640
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:49,639
that story was already out on its
own and Roswell was sleeping for many many

641
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,599
years before it came back to life. Well the same No, the point

642
00:48:53,639 --> 00:49:00,400
about about the asset crashes specifically,
if you read burl its more at all,

643
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,199
if you read their their groundbreaking the
book, the book that brought um

644
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,639
rosewell back into public awareness. Okay, and you go back and you read

645
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,639
the accounts of the Aztec crash at
the time. But there was a book.

646
00:49:12,679 --> 00:49:15,400
Of course, you'll find entire sections
of pros that were the burlots that

647
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:21,119
are literally lifted out of the Aztec
book and plugged into their account. That's

648
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:23,480
what I'm saying about the Aztec thing. And you're saying the witnesses of the

649
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:29,920
people that plugged this in. No, I'm saying that. Um, I'm

650
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,599
taught again. I'm talking about burlats
and more. And was it Condero was

651
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:37,159
the third other? I forget who
the third author was that they plugged it

652
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,519
in. But how could they do
that? I mean, what what access

653
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:44,559
would they have all time? Now
again, all they have to do is

654
00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:47,719
get a copy of the book you
a Flying Saucer Crash at Astec. I

655
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,079
forget the exact title. It was
something like that. It was a published

656
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:53,360
book, Okay, it was readily
available. They doubtless had a copy it

657
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,559
was. I mean, I read
it back in the day and all they

658
00:49:57,639 --> 00:50:01,000
had to do was TYPEE type details
out of book A into their manuscript.

659
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,280
That's what I'm saying. It didn't
have anything witnesses at all. I'd had

660
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,880
to do with writers who were more
interest in the sensational story than in the

661
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,880
facts. So you're saying people like
Bill Moore and the other the co author

662
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:20,199
or Bill wrote the first book that
Stan Friedman was involved in. Bill Moore

663
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,039
was up to his eyeballs in Air
Force intelligence. He's admitted. Yeah,

664
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,880
yeah, that's I know that he's
admitted it. So again, what's your

665
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,719
look for your source. As for
Charles burletz Um, who was the primary

666
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:36,440
author of the whole thing, um, let's just say that his his literary

667
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,840
output generally involved a lot of playing
fast and loose with facts. He was

668
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,280
a sensationalist. He was good at
it. He's really good at it.

669
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,840
If you if you want to know
how to write sensational literature, he you

670
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,280
know, his books are great if
you want to know the facts that don't

671
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,079
use his stuff because he would.
He was like Eric Vandanakan, you know,

672
00:50:55,119 --> 00:51:00,280
another another really good, really successful
writer who loved to play asked to

673
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,519
lose with the details. Yeah,
well, you know, there's a lot

674
00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:09,719
of people that have been interviewed,
um that you know by I believe it's

675
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:15,280
six hundred witnesses supposedly in all that
kind of share the same story. So

676
00:51:16,159 --> 00:51:21,400
um, you know, I don't
know how many firsthand witnesses there were actually,

677
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,800
but there were a lot of them
supposedly that were interviewed UM in the

678
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,760
beginning, not not by just Bill
Moore and his co author, but Kevin

679
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:37,960
Randall, Um, John Schmidt,
and Um I'm forgetting just Adam. There's

680
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:43,039
been a whole series of of of
UFO believer interviews. There have also been,

681
00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:45,960
of course, quite a few interviews
conducted by the other side, and

682
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:52,719
it's very interesting to watch the competing
conclusions between them. Um, it's like

683
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,679
a car wreck. We all know
that when when ten people see the via

684
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,000
car wreck, they present ten different
um, ten different statements. And if

685
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:04,559
they've all watched, if they all
have to watch repeated documentaries about car Wrex

686
00:52:04,679 --> 00:52:07,840
since you know, since the time
twenty years ago, whenever, that's going

687
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:15,039
to save their stories. It's watching
this whole thing become more and more elaborated

688
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,119
has been. It's it's intriguing to
watch, and it would be really interesting

689
00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:30,920
to know what's going on behind it. I just I don't find a lot

690
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,480
of the claims that have been most
of the claims that are currently being made

691
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,159
about Roswell, I don't find them
plausible and again your mileage may vary.

692
00:52:37,159 --> 00:52:40,519
I'm not saying you have to believe
me. I'm saying this is my view.

693
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,599
I think it's very possible by the
way that there may have been there

694
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:46,920
may have been corpses, that there
may have been one or more people on

695
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:52,559
board that was done in some of
the balloon tests, and exactly you know

696
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:57,159
exactly whether they were smaller than usual, I don't claim to know, but

697
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,440
again, we don't know what exactly
was being test did there? Um?

698
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,480
Now you do that there were a
lot of balloon tests going on, a

699
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:08,119
lot of exotic ones, and some
of them are still very secret. Um.

700
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:13,239
A lot a number of people have
said that they saw the debris field

701
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:19,880
as this very large field. I
can't remember exactly the dimensions of it,

702
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,119
but it was vast. And you
know this, whatever whatever hit was big.

703
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,400
Yeah, And is that that's case
in the cloud whatever the cloud balloon

704
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,599
you mentioned? You know, we
don't we don't know. We literally have

705
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,320
no idea how big goes. It's
all classified. It's all still classified.

706
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,239
Something was being tested in the late
forties and it's still under lock and key.

707
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,480
Um, that's unusual, isn't it? For all this time? To

708
00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:49,159
go buy in it. It's rather
unusual. That's one of the things assassinating.

709
00:53:49,159 --> 00:53:51,360
But in fact, if you look
up operations Flying Cloud, if you

710
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,840
look up um US balloon experiments,
you'll find scattered references to Flying Cloud.

711
00:53:57,079 --> 00:54:00,840
So it was a definitely it actually
existed. We just don't know what they

712
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,639
were up to. Um In the
same way umbly, the Project Mogul,

713
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,000
the big the sound listening things,
the super the substructure for those, the

714
00:54:09,039 --> 00:54:13,519
sound coastra instructure was huge. It
was very light, but it was huge

715
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:16,039
because they were trying to catch you
know, shock ways from nuclear blasts in

716
00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:21,159
you know, the in Siberia coming
out US over the pole. So they

717
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:24,840
have these huge concentrating patterns leading into
microphones that would also leave a large debris

718
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:30,119
field. Interesting. Wow. Hey, well we are ready to go into

719
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:34,840
our break now, So we're going
to have a break about about four minutes

720
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,440
long. Now. During this break, if you're on YouTube, and I'll

721
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,119
actually keep this in the podcast as
well, I'm going to be playing a

722
00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:47,480
clip for my good friend Alejandro Rojas. He interviewed Luis Alexando the other day,

723
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,960
So I am going to play that
clip and and also I'm on his

724
00:54:52,039 --> 00:54:55,639
show every Friday, so I try
to be I didn't actually make the last

725
00:54:55,679 --> 00:55:00,840
two, but we'll be right back
on KGr A Radio right after these messages

726
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:07,599
and for YouTube hanging there for this
clip. Now. One of the topics

727
00:55:07,119 --> 00:55:10,960
that would brought up recently in the
New York Times, and I know you've

728
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,840
spoken about this a little bit on
Fox News, and I've asked you about

729
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,639
this a couple of times. Is
the topic of UFO crashes and the way

730
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,119
the New York Times framed it is
at a couple of you at TPSA at

731
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:30,159
least a few are convinced that this
is a reality, that this is something

732
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:37,679
that's happened. First of all,
is that framing accurate? And you know,

733
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,960
is that topic kind of been raised
also as a check to for these

734
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:45,639
reports that hey, you know,
if there is something out there on this

735
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,440
topic, we want you all to
share that information as well. So let

736
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:52,840
me go back to through original statement
about those people that you know an our

737
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:59,199
organization that are convinced. And We've
said this before, there's a fundamental difference

738
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:04,280
between what someone believes, what someone
thinks, and what someone knows right.

739
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,159
So I don't ever want to cross
that barrier of what I think. In

740
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,920
fact, a few times have been
pushed, you know, to a corner

741
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,880
on this question. I've tried very
diligently to deflect, because at the end

742
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,639
of the day, it doesn't matter
what Luis Alisondo things or believes. What

743
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,039
matters is what the data shows.
What do we have empirical data evidence that

744
00:56:22,119 --> 00:56:27,480
can speak for itself. Now we
know that this planet we live on,

745
00:56:27,599 --> 00:56:30,760
Earth is visited by extraterrestrials all the
time. Now wait before I go down

746
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,320
that road. People say, oh
my god, lose saying aliens. We

747
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:39,880
have meteor rights, and we have
debris from comets on a daily basis,

748
00:56:40,519 --> 00:56:44,880
coming in, re entering the Earth's
atmosphere, getting caught in Earth's gravity,

749
00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:49,639
coming in and plopping down here sometimes
in people's living rooms. Believe it or

750
00:56:49,679 --> 00:56:53,280
not? Right, So this is
the universe is not static. It is

751
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:59,679
dynamic. It is always changing.
Things are always happening, And so the

752
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,159
is are the things some of these
things that are found here on this planet

753
00:57:04,119 --> 00:57:07,360
engineered? Are they are they?
Let's go this step beyond. Is it

754
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:08,960
possible that some of these things that
have been found that we know are not

755
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:14,719
from this planet? Are they natural? Occurring things such as, you know,

756
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:21,199
meteor rights or whatnot meteorites or are
these something that had some sort of

757
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:27,559
intelligence behind them, if you will, in their in their in their design,

758
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:31,199
and their function. So that's the
question, and the bottom line is

759
00:57:31,239 --> 00:57:37,679
we're still trying to answer that question. Yes, I'm obviously deflecting your question

760
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:43,639
here in the plate ist way possible, but I'm always very careful to stipulate

761
00:57:43,719 --> 00:57:45,199
what I think. Look, the
Internet and social media is full of people

762
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,039
of expousing what they think, and
at the end of the day, I

763
00:57:50,159 --> 00:57:53,119
think most Americans are probably tired about
hearing what about what other people think.

764
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,519
Let's try to focus on the areas
we don't know yet, and let's try

765
00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:04,599
to provide information and data and evidence
that can help us answer some of these

766
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,880
questions. Uh, I'm not sure
if you've heard any of what I just

767
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:13,159
said. I didn't want to end
the Roswell's story right there, because you

768
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:15,159
know, first of all, I
have a feeling that we probably never really

769
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:21,800
know what actually happened there. But
are you open to the fact that you

770
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:27,440
know, maybe something else happened other
And then where are you're going with this?

771
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,920
In particular? Basically, the thing
is all I can do is offer

772
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,079
a hypothesis. That doesn't mean I
don't I don't claim to know the truth.

773
00:58:35,119 --> 00:58:37,360
And sometime I wouldn't there, you
know, and so did it?

774
00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:40,679
Might something else have happened? Yes, But I'm what I'm thinking is that

775
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,679
all the evidence suggests to me that
what we're dealing with here is a balloon

776
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:52,280
crash that has been systematically surrounded with
um deceptive camouflage to try to distract people's

777
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,519
attention. That's my call. I
don't claim to be omniscient. Could it

778
00:58:54,559 --> 00:58:59,119
be something else as opposed? So, but that's my best call as far

779
00:58:59,159 --> 00:59:04,159
as I can tell. Oh,
yeah, well, I don't know anything

780
00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:07,199
else you want to add about Roswell
before we move on to something else,

781
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,480
No, Roswell. One of the
real problems with with UFO research recently,

782
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:17,320
to my mind, is there's been
this endless focus on a very small number

783
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:22,599
of old cases. In many cases
cases you know, missusing repeating the word

784
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:27,320
unfortunately. But in many cases it's
things that have been dug over and dug

785
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,920
over and dug over an endless number
of times, and we don't know and

786
00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:37,760
probably never will know in some of
these cases what happened there. So this

787
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,159
is one of the places where a
broader view I think might be useful.

788
00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:43,000
So no, we can, we
can move on to something else if you

789
00:59:43,119 --> 00:59:45,079
like. Yeah, I was just
looking to see if there's anything in the

790
00:59:45,159 --> 00:59:51,199
chat on that, on that in
particular, you know, I you know,

791
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,519
the first thing that comes to mind
is I always think, well,

792
00:59:53,719 --> 00:59:59,480
you know, why why would the
Air Force even put that out there to

793
00:59:59,599 --> 01:00:02,800
begin the army Air Force put that
out there to begin with? You know

794
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,679
the fact that uh, you know, they say flying disc found, but

795
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:12,000
you know, you make the point
or you have made the point a number

796
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,559
of times that you know, don't
trust them because there it has to do

797
01:00:15,639 --> 01:00:20,159
with something else, and that would
be a good point. Actually in this

798
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:27,280
particular case exactly they're saying flying disc
crashed rather than saying, um, oh

799
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,079
yes, this top secret military products
of ours just crashed. And I'm sure

800
01:00:31,119 --> 01:00:35,320
they had to scramble around very fast
to find a diffused weather balloon that they

801
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,559
could display to the to the reporters
the next day. Yeah, I mean,

802
01:00:39,679 --> 01:00:44,599
as Steven puts on, you know, on the chat here, why

803
01:00:44,639 --> 01:00:46,000
did the Air Force call the newspaper? You know, why did they call

804
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:51,679
them in the first place, and
that you know that does that that is

805
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,480
something to be questioned, because you
know, it's not like everyone in the

806
01:00:54,559 --> 01:01:01,119
world knew anything happened at all.
But since people were seeing things ever since

807
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,840
that the original sighting over Mount Rainier, um, since people were paying attention

808
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,360
to things in the sky, feeding
them with the idea that they're flying saucers

809
01:01:10,559 --> 01:01:15,840
rather than balloon tests, would have
been crucial just then again to distract the

810
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,840
attention to the Russians. So this
would have been if one of the you

811
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,159
know, balloon tests crashed there.
There was probably some very very fast conversations

812
01:01:25,199 --> 01:01:30,039
over the phone between Roswell and Washington, DC, and somebody's in Air Force

813
01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:32,360
Intelligence, very high up, says, tell him it's a flying disc tell

814
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:37,159
him you know, um, let's
let you've heard you heard this whole Kennel

815
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:42,679
Kenneth Arnold thing about flying saucers.
Let's claim it's that. And from there

816
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,719
the whole thing developed. Yeah.
I bet you're not saying in particular that

817
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:52,800
you think Kenneth Arnold saw nothing or
saw something that was you know, a

818
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,199
potential cover up. You saw something. No, I mean I think it's

819
01:01:55,239 --> 01:02:00,760
Kenneth Arnold that's a good case to
start with because Arnold wasn't experienced pilot um.

820
01:02:01,079 --> 01:02:05,840
He was experience and experienced spotter.
He was used to you know,

821
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:09,880
spotting um fires, forest fires from
the sky. He knew how to observe.

822
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,760
So when he said he saw something
strange flying near mount right in here,

823
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:16,639
we need to stop and say,
okay, he saw something strange,

824
01:02:16,679 --> 01:02:21,400
what was it? Good question,
that's you know, that's the really interesting

825
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,960
question. What was it? Um? And now now at this point that

826
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:30,679
we're going to get into something a
little strange here because what he saw was

827
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,800
not a disk if you actually read
him account, and if you you know,

828
01:02:36,039 --> 01:02:39,519
it was crescent shaped, yes,
yeah, it was crescent shaped with

829
01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:43,840
a little point in the back.
It was moving very quickly. There.

830
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:49,800
There was a flight of them.
And yet because he said to him the

831
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,960
movement appeared to be like a stone
or a plate. You know, if

832
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,039
you throw a stone across the water, just right into the way, it

833
01:02:55,079 --> 01:02:59,800
skips, and that's you can do
that with a saucer as well. And

834
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:02,199
that's why he mentioned the word saucer. And all of a sudden it was

835
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:07,559
flying saucer. All of a sudden, it was flying disc. Now Here's

836
01:03:07,599 --> 01:03:14,079
where things get interesting, because I
cared to guess where the image of the

837
01:03:14,159 --> 01:03:16,760
flying disc came from and when it
got started. Did you have put a

838
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:22,519
note where the flying disc started the
idea of the flying disc? Where that

839
01:03:22,679 --> 01:03:28,960
got going first before nineteen forty seven, long before nineteen forty seven. I

840
01:03:29,199 --> 01:03:34,039
nope, I can't think of where
that would be fiction. It was invented

841
01:03:34,159 --> 01:03:40,039
by science fiction cover artists for the
early SF pulps. They started doing disc

842
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:45,760
shaped aircraft, and then those turned
to disc shaped spacecraft, and it caught

843
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,320
on. It was fat, it
was a fat it was a fashion and

844
01:03:47,519 --> 01:03:54,360
so in the years leading up to
nineteen forty seven, if you walked past

845
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,360
a news stand you need back in
those days you a news stands just by

846
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,880
everywhere the magazines brightly colored covers.
You would probably you had a very good

847
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:08,280
chance of seeing a flying saucer on
the cover of science fiction magazine. And

848
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,199
of course there were lots of science
fiction magazines in those days. That was

849
01:04:11,239 --> 01:04:14,880
the golden age of the of the
early golden age of the genre, and

850
01:04:15,159 --> 01:04:19,400
so this idea of disc shaped aircraft
really picked up being fashionable. You found

851
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:26,360
all kinds of illustrations and dating back
to nineteen twelve. This idea got going

852
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:32,159
in people's minds, and so when
Kenneth Arnold saw a crescent shaped aircraft.

853
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:41,119
My theory is there was actually am
a flying wing, probably formerly German.

854
01:04:41,199 --> 01:04:44,039
They had. If you looked at
the image of the German flying wings,

855
01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:46,960
they have roughly that shape. But
but I'm not I'm not wedded to that

856
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,679
explanation. It's just one possibility.
But Kenneth Arnold saw a crescent shape,

857
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:56,280
and all these people look up in
the sky in the days immediately after his

858
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,760
report saw little silver, little silver
dots. Okay, but everyone thought they

859
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:06,800
saw flying discs. Everyone thought the
self flying saucers, because that's what they

860
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:12,440
were prompted to see. And at
this point we're not talking in the air

861
01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:15,360
force. But this is one of
the things that I didn't I had not

862
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:19,320
been able to chase down at the
time of the earlier book, The UFA

863
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:24,480
Phenomenon. But in my current book, The UFA Chronicles, I was finally

864
01:05:24,519 --> 01:05:29,320
able to figure out what was going
on there. Why that idea of flying

865
01:05:29,519 --> 01:05:33,599
discs from other planets suddenly showing up
all over the world, how that gone

866
01:05:33,639 --> 01:05:39,760
into public circulation before the UFOs were
first sighted well before Kenneth Arnald. I

867
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,679
mean, we can talk in a
little bit about things being seen in the

868
01:05:43,719 --> 01:05:48,159
sky dating back into prehistory. Because
of worth that happened. It was deliberate,

869
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,119
It was not done by the government, what had What happened was that

870
01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:59,519
in the immediately after World War Two, immediately after Hiroshima, an enormous number

871
01:05:59,519 --> 01:06:02,199
of people were, of course very
worried that World War three would break out

872
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:08,559
very soon and that we would all
die. And a group of people involved

873
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:13,320
in this kind of intersection between the
science fiction scene and the occult scene,

874
01:06:14,159 --> 01:06:17,039
Raymond Palmer was at the heart of
this, the legendary science fiction editor of

875
01:06:17,119 --> 01:06:21,679
Amazing Stories later founder of Fate magazine, so on. A group of people

876
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:27,199
around him seemed to have come up
with a plan of saturating the media with

877
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,159
the idea that flying saucers were going
to come and rescue us from the risk

878
01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:38,400
of nuclear war. Story after story
after story after story saturated the pulp magazines

879
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:43,800
all on that theme. There there
were hundreds of them, and cover illustrations

880
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,920
showing, you know, green aliens
descending from flying saucers all over the place.

881
01:06:48,239 --> 01:06:54,679
They were literally priming the public imagination. Now I don't think they were

882
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,320
expecting what happened when some when Kantaz
Arnold saw whatever it was he saw,

883
01:06:58,639 --> 01:07:00,280
and people started looking up, A
wow, look at those dogs. Those

884
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:04,320
must be those flying saucers. You
know I read about in in you know,

885
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:09,480
amazing stories. But that's that seems
to be what happened. That it

886
01:07:09,639 --> 01:07:15,679
was literally it was in effect an
attempt to um to keep people, to

887
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:19,559
keep the world from blowing itself up, by getting the idea out there that

888
01:07:19,679 --> 01:07:25,239
there were alien intelligence watching us,
that there were other beings from other worlds

889
01:07:25,639 --> 01:07:30,039
looking down at us. And you
know, it's it's it's really clever psychology.

890
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,760
Jean Paul Stars, the existentialist philosopher, has this great piece in his

891
01:07:34,039 --> 01:07:39,719
in his book Being in Nothingness,
you imagine yourself and imagine yourself at a

892
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,760
keyhole. You're looking through a keyhole
at something. Well we don't have to

893
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:45,400
add talk about what you're looking at
through a key hole, but you're looking

894
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:47,320
at something through key hole. All
your attentions is on what's on the other

895
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,000
side of the keyhole. Then all
of a sudden you hear something behind you

896
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:55,559
and you realize somebody's been watching you
look through the key hole, and all

897
01:07:55,559 --> 01:07:59,360
of a sudden, your entire state
of mind changes. You're not paying attention

898
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:01,239
to the keyhole. You're turning bright
red because you know, somebody just caught

899
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:11,039
you. What Ray Palmer and the
Rain, Me Lane and a range of

900
01:08:11,079 --> 01:08:14,480
other people who worked with them.
We're trying to do let's get that reaction

901
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:17,359
to get people goop. Somebody's watching
us. Maybe we shouldn't be so stupid

902
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:21,840
about throwing nuclear bombs around. Did
they succeed? Will never know, certainly

903
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:27,880
we're still here. But that's that
was the thing that I happened to being

904
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,680
able to trace down the what was
it? The prime to the popular imagination

905
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:38,239
to look for for flying discs,
to see anything in the sky and identify

906
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:41,600
it as a flying disc for another
planet. That this was. There was

907
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:45,640
this organized attempt using science fiction primarily, but motivated from within the occult community

908
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,640
to carry this thing out. It's
an amazing story. Again, it's covered

909
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:56,279
in detail in my book The UFOL
Chronicles. All Right, well do you

910
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,680
um you know, I mean the
sighting than I had. The only sighting

911
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:06,479
that I think was you know,
really a solid sighting was was a disc

912
01:09:08,079 --> 01:09:13,000
a disc right over my head?
You know with a light blue hue to

913
01:09:13,159 --> 01:09:17,760
it. Uh no, sound stopped
and then took an angle toward towards Monterey

914
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:24,279
when I was out in California,
and uh, I can't it sounds like

915
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:29,199
you're going on almost down the line
of this is a pop culture phenomenon that

916
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:33,520
influenced people. Um, but well, when I when you're sitting there and

917
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:38,479
your mind is you know, I've
been a hot tub many times and relaxing

918
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:43,600
and looking up at the satellites moving
over and and never even thinking about a

919
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,079
UFO, and then all of a
sudden that appears there It is, yeah,

920
01:09:48,119 --> 01:09:53,359
and this is this is this is
where you have to remember the sort

921
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:57,159
of thing that that Patrick Harper was
talking about in demonic reality. We do

922
01:09:57,319 --> 01:10:00,880
not live in the prosaic universe we
think we live in. And when when

923
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:04,039
I say something is a pop culture
phenomenon, that doesn't mean that it's just

924
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:09,479
limited to the pages of pop culture
magazines. People experience these things. The

925
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,399
crucial thing we have that that the
thing the skeptics can deal with is that

926
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,800
people are actually seeing strange things in
the sky. Now in anyone in a

927
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:19,720
given case, can I be identified
for sure what it is? No,

928
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:24,800
not necessarily. Um, what did
you see? I don't know. Um,

929
01:10:25,199 --> 01:10:29,560
I'm I'm sure you saw something,
and I'm sure it probably was basically,

930
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,159
you know, a bluish disc that
you know, did an angle and

931
01:10:32,239 --> 01:10:38,920
z and zipped away. Many people
have seen those. Um, that's where

932
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,199
we start getting into the interesting part
of the story, because that's something that

933
01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:46,880
is not almost certainly not being manufactured
by the Air Force. Yeah, and

934
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:51,239
you know, I'm not I have
no idea what it was. I'm not

935
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:56,439
claiming that it was, you know, aliens, I don't know what it

936
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,479
was, but I sure know that
it was something. And you know,

937
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:04,239
that's why I'm having this show right
now. Was that that influence exactly and

938
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:12,119
that openness to you know, to
remember that UFO means unidentified flying object,

939
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:15,119
flying object, we don't know what
it is. That, to my mind,

940
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,039
is the thing that too many people
lose in the in all the backing

941
01:11:18,079 --> 01:11:23,199
and forth room of UFOs, that
you know, we don't know, and

942
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:26,479
as long as we may we remain
stuck on specific theories, we can't know.

943
01:11:29,119 --> 01:11:33,680
M Yeah, I believe you're right. Let me just see. Okay,

944
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:38,479
So if someone wants to ask questions, bow, you just put something

945
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:41,840
in caps, but if someone wants
to ask a question, please do it

946
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:46,520
in all caps. Otherwise just just
you know, type along. There.

947
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:53,039
There's a lot of interaction in the
and some of what you're saying is not

948
01:11:53,119 --> 01:11:57,039
real popular. I'll be I'll be
honest with you. No, The thing

949
01:11:57,159 --> 01:12:00,319
is, I'm well aware that what
I'm saying as a minority view, and

950
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,039
I'm also well aware that I may
or may not be right. But these

951
01:12:03,079 --> 01:12:08,119
are the conclusions that I've come to. And you know, if other people

952
01:12:08,199 --> 01:12:12,000
want to pursue other avenues of inquiry, that's great. The last thing we

953
01:12:12,079 --> 01:12:15,199
needed the monoculture of ideas. And
what do you think you know, Jay

954
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:21,000
posts up here? UM ask ask
you if if you believe that's possible that

955
01:12:21,079 --> 01:12:26,319
we're being visited and UM, you
know, from what I'm gathering, your

956
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,760
story is you know, maybe that's
part of you know, correct me if

957
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:34,960
I'm wrong, but maybe that's part
of you know, the whole puzzle.

958
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:40,720
But but you think there's a lot
of other things going on. UM,

959
01:12:41,079 --> 01:12:43,760
I'm quite sure there are a lot
of other things going on. Are we

960
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:48,760
being visited by um other physical intelligent
beings from different from from some distant planet?

961
01:12:49,319 --> 01:12:54,239
UM? I have no idea.
There are some very good arguments against

962
01:12:54,319 --> 01:12:57,680
it, but you know, one
can't prove a negative UM. I would

963
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:01,039
want to see some solid evidence for
it. There are many different kinds of

964
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:03,600
one of one of the things that
I picked up through my studies in They

965
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:08,600
Could is an awareness that there are
many different kinds of intelligent being, not

966
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:13,840
all of whom have physical bodies.
And so you know this we get into

967
01:13:14,039 --> 01:13:17,239
you know, quote woo woo territory
here, but it's territory again. There's

968
01:13:17,279 --> 01:13:23,079
Joqually discussed in quiet some detail in
Passport Numagonia and that, and of course

969
01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:27,520
John Keele was all over that,
and I think he John Keele was really

970
01:13:28,159 --> 01:13:30,840
probably of all the U the old
UFO writers, who's the one that probably

971
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:34,520
influenced me most strongly because his ussion
of the super spectrum of the idea of

972
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:40,720
different modes of reality inter penetrating with
ours. To my mind, that explains

973
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:45,920
much more about the really high strangeness
aspects of the UFO phenomenon than anything that

974
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:50,680
we're seeing from UM or any explanation
that involves you know, nuts and bolt

975
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:56,840
spaceships being flown by by biological aliens. Yeah, we have a question up

976
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:00,920
here from Mary Grace again, are
you saying that people are hallucinating or that

977
01:14:01,079 --> 01:14:06,520
they are manifested it in their minds
or have manifested it in their minds?

978
01:14:09,159 --> 01:14:15,239
Um? Hallucination is one of those
very awkward words that a lot of people,

979
01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:19,640
a lot of materialists used to explain
things or to explain away things that

980
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:25,000
they don't want to deal with.
UM. I would say that people are

981
01:14:25,159 --> 01:14:30,199
perceiving things, but they're not necessarily
perceiving things through their physical senses. And

982
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:34,359
you know that things are manifested in
our minds. That's that's imperfectly that's a

983
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:39,359
good way to say it, really, but you know, we have we

984
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,720
have various ways of perceiving things,
and the handful that are talked about in

985
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:50,000
modern industrial society or not necessarily the
most important Now what about um? About

986
01:14:50,079 --> 01:14:55,199
some of your theories here, but
when there's a mass sighting, you know,

987
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,319
uh, and one of them,
I'm just someone put this up?

988
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:02,479
Oh hair, Andy who call and
can't? Unfortunately no calls today, but

989
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:06,079
oh hair, I don't know if
you ever checked into Gate C seventeen back

990
01:15:06,119 --> 01:15:13,039
in two thousand and six when there
was a disc over a hair and they

991
01:15:13,119 --> 01:15:16,359
had there was certainly something that a
lot of people saw. Yes, Yes,

992
01:15:17,239 --> 01:15:20,159
My basic assumption and this is this
is a starting point. This is

993
01:15:20,199 --> 01:15:24,119
not a conclusion, it's a starting
assumption. Is that when you see a

994
01:15:24,399 --> 01:15:27,800
when you have a mass sighting,
when you have dozens or hundreds of people

995
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,640
spotting the same thing and they describe
it the same way, you're dealing with

996
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:36,720
something that's physically there. When you're
dealing with something where one person perceives it

997
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:41,760
another don't where you know, somebody
perceives it alone, or where there's a

998
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:45,199
lot of really high strangeness going on
that looks like visionary experience, and it's

999
01:15:45,279 --> 01:15:48,960
probably something on the visionary end rather
than something on the physical end. So

1000
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:56,079
whatever was above O'Hair there apparently was
indeed something physical up there. What was

1001
01:15:56,159 --> 01:16:00,920
it? Good question? Yeah,
yeah, that's that is a real good

1002
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:04,560
case. And it was kind of
you know, uh um, it was

1003
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:09,119
I don't want to say covered up, but you just will not being able

1004
01:16:09,159 --> 01:16:13,399
to No one could be interviewed for
that or very few people could. I

1005
01:16:14,319 --> 01:16:18,079
really think that something got spotted that
was not supposed to be spotted. Yeah,

1006
01:16:18,279 --> 01:16:20,960
and so there was going to be
the oop covered this, you know,

1007
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:27,319
no interviews, no information. You
know, we had no comment.

1008
01:16:28,239 --> 01:16:32,239
Yeah, Mark has a statement and
a question. I agree with him about

1009
01:16:32,319 --> 01:16:38,800
Valley and Keel's ultra terrestrial explanations are
more accurate than most UFO community and want

1010
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:42,359
to see and really examine. I
think it's often along those lines. So

1011
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:44,439
that was just a statement. All
the way through. I thought there was

1012
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,319
Oh, here is the question right
here. Um what about radar hits of

1013
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:55,520
unknown objects through the years, the
testimony of commercial pilots, etc. Okay,

1014
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,119
Um, the test and first of
all, you have to asked,

1015
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,159
where are you getting the information from
the radar hips. If it's coming for

1016
01:17:01,239 --> 01:17:05,640
the military, don't trust it.
If it's coming from civilian airline pilots,

1017
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:11,079
pay attention to the regulations that govern
civilian airline pilots. They're actually subject in

1018
01:17:11,119 --> 01:17:14,479
military discipline, or they were up
until the nineteen eighties. They were subject

1019
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,439
to the regulations that I mentioned that
made speaking out about UFOs a federal offense.

1020
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,399
They could get you ten years in
the slammer. And yet cases like

1021
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:25,840
the nash Ford and Durry sighting.
You know two commercial airline pilots who were

1022
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:29,199
governed by that regulation, and they
talked to the news, and they talked

1023
01:17:29,199 --> 01:17:31,520
to the media all over the place. Many of these I am convinced that

1024
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:33,880
many of these things were faked,
that many of the things they were they

1025
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:39,359
you know, it was their patriotic
duty to help spread disinformation. So somebody

1026
01:17:39,399 --> 01:17:43,000
from Air Force Intelligence came to them
and said, we want you to do

1027
01:17:43,119 --> 01:17:45,760
something for us, you know,
for your country that do not You know,

1028
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:47,800
we are not going to answer too
many questions, but this is what

1029
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:53,680
you're going to say. You saw
in the especially in the nineteen fifties in

1030
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:57,000
the middle of the Red Scare and
so on. We know, we know

1031
01:17:57,159 --> 01:18:00,319
for a fact that people did that
in other context. So there were of

1032
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,439
false stories being spread things like that
to confuse the Russians and so on,

1033
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:08,600
and I think that's a lot of
what was going on. There always always

1034
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:12,960
what's your source. Look for the
source. That's where you see the medician

1035
01:18:13,119 --> 01:18:15,119
dipping his hand into his pocket.
And if it again, if it comes

1036
01:18:15,159 --> 01:18:17,880
from the government, if it comes
from the military, if it comes from

1037
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:25,000
anybody who's subjects to military discipline,
as commercial airline pilots, um think twice.

1038
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,680
Be aware that you mean being you
may be being fit what they want

1039
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,920
you to think and not what actually
happened. All right, well, let's

1040
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:35,880
go into the Randelsham Forest for a
case. That's great, Yeah, happened

1041
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:40,279
back in nineteen eighty. Now,
I know Charles hallt I know a few

1042
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:45,319
other people that were first hand witnesses
to that. And you know military again

1043
01:18:45,399 --> 01:18:49,439
you're talking military. But here's here's
the catch and your your faery and this

1044
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:55,960
in particular is that they didn't want
that leaked, you know, I mean

1045
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:58,600
Charles Hall told me, you know, the best thing they could have ever

1046
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,520
happened in his life is that you
know, that story was never leaked.

1047
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:05,000
And you know his tape, his
tape didn't get out of there's you know,

1048
01:19:05,119 --> 01:19:09,399
audio tape that he recorded during the
incident. No, that was that

1049
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:14,079
was not supposed to come out because
um, let's let's take a step back

1050
01:19:14,159 --> 01:19:18,199
from that. What happened in rentals
from forest? We have um two u

1051
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:24,359
RF bases at least to the USR
force. Okay, we have that night

1052
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:30,439
and I I defined radar blip coming
in fast. We have all kinds of

1053
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:34,439
evidence that something crash, something made
an emergency landing, something that was described

1054
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:39,399
as a drumbe please, a black
triangle. What was going on in nineteen

1055
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:48,560
eighty, again early stealth. So
there what in England tested in England.

1056
01:19:49,119 --> 01:19:53,439
H know, at that point we're
past the we're past immediate test, but

1057
01:19:54,359 --> 01:19:57,560
there's there's there's an interesting timing.
I think it was set by seventy eight

1058
01:19:58,319 --> 01:20:02,479
was when the stealth technology was really
solidly in place, and yet it wasn't

1059
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,640
until eighty two that the F one
seventeen, the first a stealth fighter,

1060
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:10,199
finally flew. This is skunk work. These are people who got the U

1061
01:20:10,279 --> 01:20:13,960
two in the air in eighteen months, So what were they making between the

1062
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,000
two? The usual guests among people
who researched this is that it was the

1063
01:20:17,079 --> 01:20:20,680
t R three Black Manta. It's
another stealth plane. It's a reconnaissance plane,

1064
01:20:21,039 --> 01:20:27,640
long range recon and this was an
early mission they had. They had

1065
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:30,000
some kind of mechanical that's some kind
of problems over in the North Sea.

1066
01:20:30,039 --> 01:20:32,000
They were perhaps going to be snooping
on the Russians. It's a popular,

1067
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:36,000
popular thing to do in in nineteen
eighty, so they have to make an

1068
01:20:36,039 --> 01:20:41,640
emergency landing. They make it the
emergency landing in England because that's close and

1069
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,880
at that point, this entire stealth
thing was was really the deepest secret we

1070
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:54,079
had, and it could have been
exposed by a single photograph because all of

1071
01:20:54,159 --> 01:20:57,520
the disinformation that we people were talking
about stealth in those days, but all

1072
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:02,840
the disinformation was about like secret paints
and secret substances made for the you know,

1073
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,600
of the wings and the fuselage and
so on, and that wasn't what

1074
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:11,199
was doing it, as we know. It was the specially angled surfaces that

1075
01:21:11,319 --> 01:21:14,640
reflected right or ways the way.
One photograph would have blown that secret sky

1076
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:19,439
high. And so yeah, a
black triangle crash landed and the US military

1077
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:24,840
was and the British military were desperately
trying to keep that information from getting out.

1078
01:21:25,079 --> 01:21:28,079
Once it leaked out, of course
they had to cover it up in

1079
01:21:28,159 --> 01:21:32,479
flying saucer colors as quickly as possible. I don't know, I'm not I'm

1080
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,640
I don't. I don't think I
buy this this this part of it,

1081
01:21:36,279 --> 01:21:41,479
you know, and you know,
just just talking to Charles Halt from one

1082
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:45,399
of them, the commander, uh, he wasn't the commander of the base

1083
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,960
at the time, but but anyway, assistant commander I don't remember his title

1084
01:21:50,279 --> 01:21:55,479
in my book. Yeah, yeah, but here's the thing, so he

1085
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:59,680
he has you know, I've I've
been face to face with him talking.

1086
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:05,920
I feel like I have a pretty
good observation if someone's telling phony bologne or

1087
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,479
not. You know, of course, you know, anyone can be fooled.

1088
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:15,640
But he tells a story of this
thing looking like an eyeball and going

1089
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:18,640
through the woods and kind of like, you know, bouncing between the trees,

1090
01:22:19,119 --> 01:22:24,880
and then all of a sudden it
bursts into several lights, and uh,

1091
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,199
you know, he said, it
doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense

1092
01:22:28,239 --> 01:22:31,239
at all. And you know,
I have a friend in the antiques world

1093
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:38,279
who actually saw a UFO in college
that was box shaped, came down through

1094
01:22:38,359 --> 01:22:42,560
the mall at Amherst College. He
was in the tower and the thing looked

1095
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:46,319
like a box and then it shot
up overhead toward the mountains and then it

1096
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:50,600
burst into lights. So there's two
stories into five lights, two stories right

1097
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:55,479
there that are very you know,
similar in that type of way. But

1098
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:00,720
I don't know, uh, you
know, the the audio of that,

1099
01:23:00,119 --> 01:23:05,319
it sounds pretty fascinating. It sounds
like something was really going on. Did

1100
01:23:05,399 --> 01:23:10,399
you listen to the audio as well? I have not listened to the audio.

1101
01:23:11,399 --> 01:23:15,000
Yeah, it's really worth really worth
checking out. It doesn't. I

1102
01:23:15,039 --> 01:23:17,439
don't. I don't see how that
could have been faked or why it would

1103
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:21,840
have been Well, again, if
you want people to believe that that it's

1104
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,960
that it's aliens and stealth technology,
if and you have the resources of the

1105
01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:30,840
US government, you can do a
lot of fakery, all right. Well,

1106
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:35,159
so he wrote this memo about the
whole situation, and it was secret

1107
01:23:35,199 --> 01:23:41,960
memo that he sent to headquarters.
Um, you know that later was revealed.

1108
01:23:42,159 --> 01:23:45,560
It had no intention of being revealed
at the time. Um, you

1109
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,720
know. Uh. And and there's
a number of cases where you know,

1110
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:54,279
something eventually becomes to classified. It
just seems like if this was a disinformation

1111
01:23:54,439 --> 01:24:00,159
effort, then immediately that document would
get out there live and not you know,

1112
01:24:00,319 --> 01:24:04,520
years later when it's declassified. M
Well, it depends. It depends

1113
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:09,199
very much. I Mean, the
thing is, we're sitting here outside,

1114
01:24:11,239 --> 01:24:15,000
you know, we're sitting here on
the outside of trying to look in and

1115
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:20,520
exactly what's going on, exactly who's
who's talking about what or what's being manufactured

1116
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:25,279
at what time, what purposes is
being manufactured for. We can't know that.

1117
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:30,479
What I'm saying though, is that
a great many cases that have been

1118
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:34,600
labeled the UFOs show show. Basically, they make very immediate sense if we

1119
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:36,880
look at them and say, okay, what's the Air Force season is to

1120
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:42,600
distract attention for something from something?
And I argue the answer is yes,

1121
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,960
in a very large number of cases, that's what's going on. That not

1122
01:24:45,119 --> 01:24:49,439
all the cases. Again, there
is no one explanation for all UFO phenomena.

1123
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:55,640
But if we can, if we
can catch to get a sense of

1124
01:24:56,119 --> 01:25:01,279
how Air Force intelligences is manipulating their
end of it and screen that interference out,

1125
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:04,439
we have a much better chance of
getting toward what was actually going on

1126
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:10,680
as a working rule, as I'm
noted, if it comes from a president

1127
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:14,560
or former military officer or somebody in
this in you know, somebody with connections

1128
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:19,279
to Spookwood, I discounted precisely because
they're you know, you can't know whether

1129
01:25:19,319 --> 01:25:24,319
they're telling the truth or not.
And that may be a mistake on my

1130
01:25:24,399 --> 01:25:27,279
part, but I don't. I
don't see any way around that. Because

1131
01:25:27,439 --> 01:25:33,039
the um there, especially as intelligence, they have floated so much nonsense.

1132
01:25:33,079 --> 01:25:36,119
I talked about the Menowith case earlier. You know, they've done that kind

1133
01:25:36,159 --> 01:25:43,720
of thing over and over again,
and they're still doing it. And so

1134
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:47,760
you know, you fully want what's
the phrasing, foolly wants shame on you,

1135
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:51,520
fool me twice, shame on me. So anything that comes from a

1136
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:55,720
military source of government surf like that, you've got to look at it skeptically.

1137
01:25:55,720 --> 01:26:00,079
You've got to say, Okay,
what are they hiding something as what

1138
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,520
might they be hiding with this?
What strategies might this be involved? And

1139
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:10,720
this is actually another exact Well makes
in his book Messagers of Deception that,

1140
01:26:11,359 --> 01:26:16,239
um, you know, just as
just as Hitler's generals had ninety percent of

1141
01:26:16,319 --> 01:26:19,920
the information they needed to realize the
Allies were invade Normandy, but they had

1142
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:25,079
the wrong ninety percent. And Valet
goes on and points out, it's exactly

1143
01:26:25,159 --> 01:26:28,000
the same thing. We have ninety
percent of the information about the UFOs,

1144
01:26:28,279 --> 01:26:30,720
but that would help us figure out
what's actually going on, but it's the

1145
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,399
wrong ninety percent. And we also
have a lot of disinformation, as he

1146
01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:39,239
pointed out, a lot of stuff
that is um that is very dubious,

1147
01:26:39,359 --> 01:26:42,520
that is manufactured, that is meant
to push the narrative this way or that

1148
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:48,039
way. I mentioned the MG twelve
business and that the reality of that has

1149
01:26:48,079 --> 01:26:53,399
to be taken into account. Otherwise
we're just wandering in the midst. So

1150
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:59,199
getting back to just the rendlesham um
really quickly, Um, a question comes

1151
01:26:59,279 --> 01:27:00,880
up, the US was not big
enough for a pilot. It was very

1152
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:09,039
small, according to you know Jim
Peniston, and um, uh it was

1153
01:27:09,199 --> 01:27:12,439
very small for a pilot. I
believe it was like six by nine or

1154
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,000
something like that and not too tall
and it took off again. You know

1155
01:27:16,159 --> 01:27:20,000
this? This are you saying that
all these military people are in on the

1156
01:27:20,279 --> 01:27:29,079
you know this big that it was
very small fascinates me because the material that

1157
01:27:29,199 --> 01:27:30,920
I read, and I read quite
a few books on the subject, including

1158
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:35,000
the number by by you know,
I read Jenny Randall's book for example.

1159
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:41,640
Um, the claim was that the
claim they reported that it was something rather

1160
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:46,279
a large a large triangular aircraft flash
spacecraft. Well, you know what.

1161
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:53,680
Okay, then there's the three mendentations
talking multiple stories here, and that that

1162
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:57,439
adds to the fun of course,
when they're they're conflicting stories and circulations go

1163
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,960
on. Uh No, I would
be interested to know that other story.

1164
01:28:00,039 --> 01:28:04,399
I'm not familiar with that in particular, but you know, they want to

1165
01:28:04,399 --> 01:28:08,520
pick up you want to pick up
Jenny Randall's book. Um, I think

1166
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:11,279
it's I remember the title of it, but she's you know, she's a

1167
01:28:11,359 --> 01:28:15,720
well known British m UFO researcher,
and she did she did good work on

1168
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:17,399
this one. And I believe,
if I'm remembering it correctly, it was

1169
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:23,520
quite a large thing and a whole
bunch of people were taken were taken to

1170
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,079
see it in a way that later
that some of them later said, this

1171
01:28:28,039 --> 01:28:33,119
seems all staged. So well,
yeah, I haven't heard that angle at

1172
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:38,039
all, but I will check it
out and chet book. I think I

1173
01:28:38,159 --> 01:28:41,520
think you'll find it entertaining or interesting. And at the time, you know,

1174
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:45,800
Charles Halt made these impressions, I
mean he filled the impressions of the

1175
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:49,880
triangle, you know where the landing
gear came down with plaster. I actually

1176
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:55,239
saw he had a piece with him, you know, to show, and

1177
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,880
it did support the theory that the
thing was very small and it did come

1178
01:29:00,279 --> 01:29:03,159
supposedly come down between the trees and
branches broken things like that, and they

1179
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:06,880
took pictures of the branches, broken
branches in the upper part of the tree

1180
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:15,560
and they it just it seems like
an awful lot of work to to make

1181
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:21,760
a hoax. No. Again,
the my argument for RENTALSSOM is that it's

1182
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:26,279
not a hoax, that it was
an actual stealth craft and that's why they

1183
01:29:26,359 --> 01:29:30,000
tried to blank it as incompletely.
I wonder you know that's that's interesting if

1184
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:34,079
there may have been because there were
proposals in the in the sixties and sivities

1185
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:40,039
to do what we now call drones, pilotless planes that were controlled by another

1186
01:29:40,199 --> 01:29:45,640
plane. Can you can you name
some books that cover the smone that discussed

1187
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:49,600
the small thing that was found.
No, Okay, I'll dig into it,

1188
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:54,079
um, because that sounds interesting,
and I think it's just comparing that

1189
01:29:54,439 --> 01:30:00,239
to what we know of aerospace technology
at that time might reveal a great deal.

1190
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:08,680
Okay, all right, um,
I guess I guess I'll move on

1191
01:30:09,119 --> 01:30:13,479
also to another another question, just
to ask you if you've ever looked into

1192
01:30:14,279 --> 01:30:18,680
UM incidents like the aerial school incident
in Westall are you familiar with either one

1193
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:23,960
of those that those those aren't ringing
bills right now? Okay, all right?

1194
01:30:24,159 --> 01:30:30,359
This was a school children in a
remote area and South Africa that that

1195
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:34,279
you know, sixty two of them
actually UM talked about it were interviewed by

1196
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:40,359
a child psychicologist, John mac who
came in. A BBC reporter came in

1197
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:45,880
first ahead of at and uh,
it's a very very fascinating case. We're

1198
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:51,199
a place where no one was actually
the witness that I actually spoke with said,

1199
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:55,560
you know, she never even heard
of the topic UFO. She had

1200
01:30:55,640 --> 01:31:00,640
no idea what it was at the
time, just that it was very strange

1201
01:31:00,119 --> 01:31:04,079
and there was actually beings u and
volved in that too and not. And

1202
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:10,399
this is by sixty two plus kids
plus one teacher, as well as some

1203
01:31:11,279 --> 01:31:15,479
unreported kindergarten kids that saw it as
well. But we're not able to be

1204
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:21,079
interviewed at the time. Mum.
So there's that. And the thing I

1205
01:31:21,159 --> 01:31:27,119
want to cycle back to is that
unquestionably weird things are being seen. Weird

1206
01:31:27,199 --> 01:31:30,600
things are being seen in the skies. The question is what you know?

1207
01:31:30,159 --> 01:31:33,319
Are they all the same thing?
I'm arguing that they're not. Are some

1208
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:41,199
of them being created for various purposes
of deception or um basically, are are

1209
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:45,359
being interpreted in various ways manipulated by
the US Air Force. I would argue

1210
01:31:45,359 --> 01:31:47,560
that's the case. Does that explain
every setting? Of course not. And

1211
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:54,199
I'm specifically said it's not every setting. But you know, one of the

1212
01:31:54,279 --> 01:31:57,960
one of the challenges here, of
course is that to really under to really

1213
01:31:58,039 --> 01:32:03,600
study every single site in the detail
it will be necessary. That's something that

1214
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:06,479
would take you know, no want, no researcher, you can do that,

1215
01:32:08,279 --> 01:32:13,439
no individual researcher. We could have
if there was actually an independent agency

1216
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:17,159
for UFO research with you know,
a billion dollars your budget and hundreds of

1217
01:32:17,239 --> 01:32:21,800
field investigators. Even then it would
be very very hard to keep track of

1218
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:26,319
everything and do all the adequate research. So all of us are basically trying

1219
01:32:26,359 --> 01:32:30,960
to work with a very limited data
set and with ar Google's impressions, and

1220
01:32:30,279 --> 01:32:35,319
we do our best. Yes,
yes, I agree in that. All

1221
01:32:35,359 --> 01:32:41,119
right, Well do you think so
if the Pentagon actually admits that it has

1222
01:32:41,199 --> 01:32:45,119
been looking into you know, UAPs
as they call them or whatever they are,

1223
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:50,119
you know, maybe they're because it's
possible that it's a foreign threat or

1224
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:55,960
something else unexplained. And I don't
know if you have fallen any of that,

1225
01:32:56,680 --> 01:33:00,640
but yeah, so I did want
to get into also the Nimitz case.

1226
01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:04,600
Again it's military. Um you may
have you know, thoughts about that

1227
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:13,319
separately. Um I talked to Kevin
Day actually before he even came forward,

1228
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:16,600
and actually he's, uh, you
know, he's he's come out on you

1229
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:25,720
know, several shows and you know
TV and TV shows, unexplained, unidentified

1230
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:29,920
and all that. So what do
you think of these tic TACs that defied

1231
01:33:30,079 --> 01:33:34,479
all the tik tak shaped you know, UFOs defied all physics that we know

1232
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:39,600
about as far as you know,
the starting stops and all the radar data

1233
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:43,840
they had on it, and the
eyewitnesses as well. Where did all this

1234
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:47,239
come into play? Good question?
Um. The first point is again,

1235
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:54,000
um, no reminding of the date
when that happened un two thousand and four,

1236
01:33:55,119 --> 01:33:58,159
two thousand and four, So right
about the beginning of the latest run,

1237
01:33:58,520 --> 01:34:01,560
when the Navy started going, oh
working, and my assumption when all

1238
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,000
of us started coming out with oh, the Navy's testing something new, and

1239
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:11,840
I could be wrong, but watching
the Pentagon go through exactly the same maneuvers

1240
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:16,119
they went through in the creation of
Project Blue Book and making the same well

1241
01:34:16,119 --> 01:34:19,520
there might be something up there.
This kind of thing, it's so reminiscent

1242
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:26,760
of what was going on in the
midnight mid late nineteen fifties. And my

1243
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:31,000
assumption, again I could be wrong. My assumption is that, in particular,

1244
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:38,720
now that our aircraft carrier fleet is
rapidly approaching obsolescence due to our ship

1245
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:42,920
killing missile hypersonic ship killing missiles,
that's the Navy's testing something, and that

1246
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,920
they're doing a whole series of secret
tests. They are trying to keep it

1247
01:34:45,039 --> 01:34:49,399
out of the eyes of everyone,
and so they are manufacturing and circulating stories

1248
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:54,840
of you this UFO, that UFO, the other UFO as protective camouflage,

1249
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:58,199
just the same way that the Air
Force did. Now again, I could

1250
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:02,079
be wrong, that's my take on
it. And watching the Pentagon pile into

1251
01:35:02,119 --> 01:35:06,960
the whole up thing, um again, I think it's a smokescreen. I

1252
01:35:08,079 --> 01:35:12,560
think it's I think we're looking at
another equivalent of those inflatable tanks and non

1253
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,800
existent armies that we use to fake
out the Nazis in in nineteen forty four.

1254
01:35:16,159 --> 01:35:21,159
And will I, you know,
will I be able to say that

1255
01:35:21,319 --> 01:35:25,920
for sure, not until whatever the
Navy. You know, my working guess

1256
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:29,720
is in about ten years, maybe
five, but probably closer to ten given

1257
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:32,359
the way it goes, we'll find
out that the Navy does have this remarkable

1258
01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:39,359
new technology that they haven't been talking
about and it will resemble what's being seen

1259
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:43,760
in roughly the same way that the
stealth plans resembled those slow moving black triangles.

1260
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:47,079
You know, we'll see I quite
understand there are a lot of people

1261
01:35:47,119 --> 01:35:49,439
who think otherwise, who think that
it's something the violent. You know,

1262
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:54,439
there's some something violating the laws of
physics, some some you know, alien

1263
01:35:54,479 --> 01:36:00,479
technology or something, and we'll just
have to see who's right now. The

1264
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:08,079
government recently over this last few months
has come out and said that they agree

1265
01:36:08,199 --> 01:36:15,159
that the three videos that have been
released were you know, unidentified objects and

1266
01:36:15,239 --> 01:36:21,239
um and you know they they ups. I'm sorry I put up the wrong

1267
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:27,399
here's the one. But there was
the shapes were there was the gimbal known

1268
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:30,960
as the gimbal. Were this uh, this disc with a little point on

1269
01:36:30,039 --> 01:36:33,560
the top of it appears to have
a point. It kind of goes along

1270
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:36,560
level and then all of a sudden
it goes up on its side and it's

1271
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:41,239
moving along at a hundreds of other
knots and uh, you know, being

1272
01:36:41,359 --> 01:36:44,600
filmed with the gun camera and all
that. Um, and then the go

1273
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:48,800
fast which was a lock on and
uh. Then of course the tik tak

1274
01:36:49,279 --> 01:36:54,920
that came off of that whole event
off the coast of California. Um,

1275
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:58,359
and what do you what do you
say to all those different objects and all

1276
01:36:58,399 --> 01:37:01,880
that you think they're all a military
I mean, you think this is the

1277
01:37:02,039 --> 01:37:05,399
total answer for this? No,
I think I think that I think that

1278
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:13,640
what we that, Um, all
those films were clever fakes that although I

1279
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:17,640
mean, this is the US government. Can they pay for the production of

1280
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:21,640
a film and then leak it and
say, wow, this must be unidentified

1281
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:25,520
if they're trying to cover up something
that doesn't look like any of those of

1282
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:30,319
course they can. So again,
there's anything that comes from the government,

1283
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,880
you have to approach with skepticism because
again, they're not telling you what they

1284
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:40,560
know. They're telling you what they
want you to believe. M Well,

1285
01:37:41,199 --> 01:37:44,920
um, that's my take again.
I'm I'm not saying that I'm that I'm

1286
01:37:45,039 --> 01:37:47,600
niscient here or that I'm absolutely true
and you know you better, you better

1287
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:51,840
believe it. This is my take, and it's it's worked out that way

1288
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:59,479
often enough. It's worked out often
enough that the Um, the remarkable thing

1289
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:02,720
in this that so and so is
pointed too, turns out, ten or

1290
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,920
fifteen years down the road to have
been another secret test, you were the

1291
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:13,920
Mantel case that used to be quite
famous. On nineteen forty eight International Garden

1292
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:18,880
pilot went to chasing a cone shaped
UFO and he ran too high, lost

1293
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:23,920
conscious to lack of a crowd and
yeah, and it turned out that what

1294
01:38:24,039 --> 01:38:27,840
he was chasing was a skyhook balloon, one of the again, one of

1295
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:31,319
those balloon tests, but for like
what was it six years after after the

1296
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:34,840
date of that of that crash,
the Air Force insisted at the top of

1297
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:40,119
their lungs that know he'd been chasing
the planet Venus. They know perfectly well

1298
01:38:40,199 --> 01:38:43,199
that he hadn't been chasing the planet
Venus. They knew that he was chasing

1299
01:38:43,239 --> 01:38:47,079
a secret balloon test, but they
live through their teeth because those were the

1300
01:38:47,159 --> 01:38:50,920
tests were secret. That was actually
the incident that really gave me a clue

1301
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:56,000
to the whole thing. Watching well, that and then all of the revelations

1302
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:59,960
about how many Project blue Book sightings
had actually been u to NSS seventy one

1303
01:39:00,039 --> 01:39:03,880
settings. When that when the information
about about the SR seventy one and YouTube

1304
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:11,359
program programs were declassified by the CIA, it turned out that approximately half of

1305
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:17,840
the quote unknowns the Blue Book had
recorded not only were they SR seventy one

1306
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:21,880
or you two flights, but the
Blue Book officers knew that. They got

1307
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:25,560
on the phone to lengthy talked to
the CIA, thing, how were you

1308
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:27,720
sting? Were you flying something?
Yeah? Okay, Mark, that was

1309
01:39:28,119 --> 01:39:31,439
as an unknown. So that's that's
the kind of thing we're up against here,

1310
01:39:31,880 --> 01:39:39,880
a situation where we can't where the
US government is systematically lucking about what

1311
01:39:40,119 --> 01:39:44,960
people are seeing in order to cover
up in order to provide count protective camouflage

1312
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,000
for secret programs. It's you know, it's documented that they've done that.

1313
01:39:48,119 --> 01:39:53,279
It's it's documented over and over again
that they did exactly that. And so

1314
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,159
we need to book at anytime something
comes out of the government saying and look

1315
01:39:58,199 --> 01:40:01,079
at the possibility or I would say, the probability that it's yet more of

1316
01:40:01,159 --> 01:40:09,399
the same thing. Are you Are
you familiar with the Belgium wave? Um,

1317
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:15,600
David, I think it was the
nineteen nineties. Um that that was.

1318
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:19,079
I forget how many. I think
it was something like a thousand sightings.

1319
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,239
I may be way off on that, And I just wondered if you

1320
01:40:23,279 --> 01:40:29,239
were familiar with that in particular nineteen
nineties, And Um, I recall reading

1321
01:40:29,319 --> 01:40:30,880
something about it, but I'm not
recalling the details what we're people seeing.

1322
01:40:32,199 --> 01:40:40,720
They were seeing a triangle um lots
of them, and police officers round triangle

1323
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:46,159
or a flying up high triangle.
They actually saw one over a field that

1324
01:40:46,399 --> 01:40:50,159
was that was the police officer in
particular was out with his wife. And

1325
01:40:50,319 --> 01:40:55,720
that was actually in nineteen eighty nine
to nineteen nineties when when that happened.

1326
01:40:56,359 --> 01:41:00,359
And so there was just lots and
lots and lots of people saying this and

1327
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:04,720
one picture that is suspect. You
know, only one picture was taken and

1328
01:41:05,399 --> 01:41:12,039
that was in junior nineteen ninety.
Yeah, where were all the cameras.

1329
01:41:12,079 --> 01:41:15,079
I mean nineteen ninety cell phone cameras
weren't really a thing. Yes, as

1330
01:41:15,119 --> 01:41:20,600
I recall that at all people had
cameras, and you'd think, especially if

1331
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:23,880
these things are being a popping of
all of the place, you know,

1332
01:41:24,159 --> 01:41:27,439
some lady would stick an incinematic into
a purse just to make sure to have

1333
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:30,680
it. But one of the one
of the really odd things is that,

1334
01:41:30,479 --> 01:41:34,840
especially nowadays, with the fantastic number
of people who were going around with cell

1335
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:39,840
phones with these and cameras. Yeah, I gotta tell you when I will

1336
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:42,720
tell you this, and I don't
know if you have ever had a sighting.

1337
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:45,920
Of course, that's usually a question
I asked. But when I fair

1338
01:41:46,039 --> 01:41:47,960
question, and I have to say
the answers, No, I have not.

1339
01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:54,199
Okay, when I had my UFO
sighting, I was so enthralled with

1340
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:58,000
what the heck am I looking at? If I had a camera beside me,

1341
01:41:58,039 --> 01:42:00,039
I don't know if I would have
thought to pick it up. But

1342
01:42:00,039 --> 01:42:03,119
I understand what you're saying. If
people there's a flap, everyone's talking about

1343
01:42:03,159 --> 01:42:06,319
seeing something, you know, you're
you're almost out there looking for something.

1344
01:42:06,359 --> 01:42:11,640
I can understand. You know your
point where someone seemed to have a camera.

1345
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:15,199
Yeah, exactly, you think somebody, I mean a situation like yours.

1346
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:18,039
You're alone, you're chilling out in
a hot tub, and then there's

1347
01:42:18,039 --> 01:42:21,720
this this impossible thing hovering over you. Yeah, you're just gonna be staring

1348
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:26,319
at the thing, going what's the
bleep? Yeah? But I think I

1349
01:42:26,399 --> 01:42:31,239
said that too, Yeah. Yeah. No. The thing is, I'm

1350
01:42:31,560 --> 01:42:34,840
I have friends who head sightings.
I'm a good friend of mine had had

1351
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:40,520
a head a classic black triangle sighting. Um, and I believe he saw

1352
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:43,600
something. I do not think he
was. You know, I believe that

1353
01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:45,880
he saw it and he described it
as best he could. And that's that's

1354
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:49,560
the thing, you know, the
thing that the skeptics always missed, that

1355
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,520
the people are actually seeing strange things
in the sky, and we need to

1356
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:58,840
start by accepting that. And then
we go on to say, okay,

1357
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:03,680
now are they all the same thing? Clearly not what categories they fall into?

1358
01:43:04,399 --> 01:43:09,479
Could they be from many different sources? What influence does popular culture have

1359
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:15,760
on our interpretation of these strange things
that we're seeing. What about the interface

1360
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:18,680
between you the young talked about between
the inner and the outer worlds, where

1361
01:43:19,239 --> 01:43:24,760
you know, things are seen in
the sky because they fill a psychological need,

1362
01:43:25,239 --> 01:43:29,039
but they're actually being seen, you
know, we're not. Again Patrick

1363
01:43:29,079 --> 01:43:34,560
Harper's discussion in Demonic Reality is great. There we're dealing with a very very

1364
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:40,960
strange phenomenon, or a very very
strange set of phenomena. As I've already

1365
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:45,680
indicated, I tend to think that
John Keel's notion of the super spectrum of

1366
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:50,239
ultraterrestrials with an extraterrestrials had a lot
going for it actually explains much more than

1367
01:43:50,359 --> 01:43:57,000
many of the other explanations. But
there again, there are these other things

1368
01:43:57,119 --> 01:44:01,640
going on that clearly relate to something
like say, military intelligence. So it's

1369
01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:08,680
you know, it's crucial not to
not to oversimplify it, not to try

1370
01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:12,399
to go for the simple answer.
And I'm not trying to go for a

1371
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:16,920
single answer for something that obviously has
many mediagual causes. Right. Uh.

1372
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:25,399
Are you familiar with the JA L
the Japanese Airlines flight sixteen twenty eight pack

1373
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:29,880
in nineteen eighty six. I've read
about it. It was a long time

1374
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:32,039
ago. Yeah, Well that's a
fascinating case to me. You know,

1375
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:38,920
this walnut shaped you know, three
hundred some odd foot or somewhere around there

1376
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:44,279
between one hundred plus feet long,
you know, following scene on radar h

1377
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:51,479
This is a pilot that is flying
cargo, you know basically, and you

1378
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:57,880
know he reports that trying to figure
out what's happening. There's all kinds of

1379
01:44:58,279 --> 01:45:01,119
I think there's two different radar hits
on this thing, and you know,

1380
01:45:01,239 --> 01:45:05,039
he ends up getting a desk job, you know, after this thing happened,

1381
01:45:05,079 --> 01:45:12,359
because he actually you know, uh
reported it. And what do you

1382
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:19,319
think of that? In general?
John Callahan actually is a person that speaks

1383
01:45:19,319 --> 01:45:25,800
about that now and what he saw. I mean again, not not having

1384
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:30,239
not having the actual account to the
actual information so on available to me right

1385
01:45:30,279 --> 01:45:32,720
now. I don't know. Um, it's an it's an interesting question.

1386
01:45:33,159 --> 01:45:39,000
I note that a remarkable number of
these sightings happened to cargo plan to people,

1387
01:45:39,239 --> 01:45:43,840
to pilots of cargo planes, not
passenger planes. Yeah, there are

1388
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:46,560
some passengers. A matter of fact
that I had a personal friend on my

1389
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:50,520
show that I knew a commercial pilot
that had a very similar sighting. Said

1390
01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:56,000
the shape like a WALTT as well. Interesting and was that a passion passenger

1391
01:45:56,039 --> 01:45:59,479
flight? That was a passenger flight? Yes, okay, yeah, yeah,

1392
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:01,000
I did say that all of them
were commercial flights. They're just noticed

1393
01:46:01,039 --> 01:46:04,880
that a lot of the famous ones
are are cargo flights. Nash Fort and

1394
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:10,720
varies a great example. Ah yeah, how about that. Never never never

1395
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:14,039
thought of that, But yeah they
are. They are some fascinating cases.

1396
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:17,840
And it's just like you said,
you know, we are, they are.

1397
01:46:18,079 --> 01:46:21,079
There are some weird stuff up there. There's some weird stuff that people

1398
01:46:21,119 --> 01:46:26,560
are saying. There's things that one
over the English channel that look like big

1399
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:30,199
yellow crafts. So that's another great
one. Unusual. Yeah. Um.

1400
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:34,000
I also like to point out.
If you go back to Charles Fort,

1401
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:38,560
go back to some of the really
early investigators. You can go back to

1402
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:43,800
in some cases medieval and Renaissance sources. You can find descriptions of things very

1403
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:48,119
like what people are reporting now.
Um, you know, in things from

1404
01:46:48,119 --> 01:46:54,239
the fourteenth century, in things from
ancient Rome, there are it's it's really

1405
01:46:54,359 --> 01:46:58,159
quite remarkable some of the weird things
and the skies have been there all along.

1406
01:46:58,399 --> 01:47:01,800
That's clear. Um. The question
is what does that mean? What

1407
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:04,680
does that tell us? I don't
know, but it's it's Gristopher. The

1408
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:09,359
mill is something that has to be
taken into account when you know, you

1409
01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:13,439
occasionally get you a full researchers from
the straterrestrial side, who are who are

1410
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:15,840
insisting that no, no, it's
a recent high. It's a recent event.

1411
01:47:15,079 --> 01:47:19,279
They must have just arrived and the
evidence simply doesn't support that they've been

1412
01:47:19,279 --> 01:47:25,479
around. Whatever it is, it's
been happening for a long time. Right,

1413
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:29,079
Yeah, I'm just just so I
know, we have all I don't

1414
01:47:29,119 --> 01:47:34,000
know, maybe four minutes something like
that left and um, your your books,

1415
01:47:34,399 --> 01:47:40,479
um, if you want to talk
a little bit about where people can

1416
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:45,840
find them actually and and a little
bit you know, just kind of what

1417
01:47:45,199 --> 01:47:48,920
what is in you know, the
your latest book, basically, what does

1418
01:47:48,960 --> 01:47:54,079
it cover exactly? Sure? Um, As far as my books, generally,

1419
01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:57,840
you can get them from any full
service bookstore or your favorite online bookstore.

1420
01:47:57,840 --> 01:48:00,680
I'm all over the place. I've
got an is on page if you

1421
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,920
want to look me up. John
Michael Greer Um. This current one UM

1422
01:48:04,359 --> 01:48:11,279
the UFO Chronicles. It's an attempt
to sort out the UFO phenomenon, starting

1423
01:48:11,359 --> 01:48:15,039
with the recognition that it has that
it doesn't make any sense if we assume

1424
01:48:15,159 --> 01:48:19,319
that if it wasn't a spacecraft,
it couldn't have existed at all. With

1425
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:25,560
the sort of skeptic and the skeptical
notion um, it discusses the history of

1426
01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:29,159
the phenomenon, gives an over you
the whole thing, talks about the bad

1427
01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:32,199
logic that a lot of skeptics use
to try to pretend that people are not

1428
01:48:32,319 --> 01:48:35,600
seeing what they're actually seeing, and
then also talks about some of the mistakes

1429
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:40,119
that've been made from by UFO investigators
in interpreting what their things, and then

1430
01:48:40,199 --> 01:48:45,600
goes on to suggest and some explanations
for at least some of the phenomena the

1431
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:51,840
UFO Chronicles from books it should be
readily available, um, you know,

1432
01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:55,800
as your favorite bookstore, and if
not, you can you can get an

1433
01:48:55,920 --> 01:49:00,439
order it. I you just mentioned
about, you know, some of the

1434
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:03,359
mistakes ufologists have made, and I
know there's a you know, I've said

1435
01:49:03,399 --> 01:49:10,000
this on this show a few times. It's unfortunate that sometimes and a few

1436
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:14,880
I can't I'm not going to say
any examples or or I can't none can

1437
01:49:15,039 --> 01:49:18,000
come directly to mind right now.
But when they find out they're wrong about

1438
01:49:18,039 --> 01:49:23,600
a case, um, they don't
divorce themselves from it. They just keep

1439
01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:27,479
going. Uh, they keep going
with what they have and uh, you

1440
01:49:27,560 --> 01:49:31,479
know, even even to conferences and
talk about it. Yeah, so that

1441
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:35,520
that does happen. I mean,
there's the human element in it. It's

1442
01:49:35,680 --> 01:49:40,079
very human. If you committed yourself
to a particular point of view and then

1443
01:49:40,079 --> 01:49:44,079
it turns out you're completely wrong about
that, that thing, it's really embarrassing

1444
01:49:44,119 --> 01:49:46,000
to say out, yeah I was
wrong. Um. The one thing I'll

1445
01:49:46,039 --> 01:49:50,840
say is that, generally speaking,
the upologists have done a better job being

1446
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:55,760
reasonable, paying attention to the evidence
and so on than the skeptics. M

1447
01:49:55,960 --> 01:50:00,199
One of the chapters in my book
takes the basic skeptic arguments apart, and

1448
01:50:00,279 --> 01:50:02,880
so that they're based on logical fallacies
that are so old they have names in

1449
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:08,600
Latin. So these people who are
crowing about science and reason apparently have not

1450
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:14,119
made the acquaintance of science and reason
to the extent that anything like the extents

1451
01:50:14,119 --> 01:50:15,960
they claim. That's one of the
points that I make. The skeptics have

1452
01:50:16,039 --> 01:50:19,359
done very badly. Now I think
many of them have had reason to do

1453
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:24,119
so because a lot of them again
have connections with the spook, with the

1454
01:50:24,159 --> 01:50:27,960
spook world, or were there for
right, right, Well, okay,

1455
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:31,000
that's it for the show with you
tonight. Thank you so much. It's

1456
01:50:31,039 --> 01:50:35,680
been a pleasure, very interesting.
All right, all right, you take

1457
01:50:35,720 --> 01:50:41,199
care and you too now, all
right, all right, everyone, So

1458
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:45,680
that is it for our show tonight. I just wanted to go into what

1459
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,560
I mentioned earlier, and that is
please do either do one or two things

1460
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:54,039
if you want to find out if
if you're very interested in watching the show

1461
01:50:54,159 --> 01:51:00,800
live of course next week, you
want to go into the YouTube and subscribe

1462
01:51:00,840 --> 01:51:03,199
and click the bell and you'll get
a notification because right now I don't know

1463
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:09,039
exactly when the show is going to
be next week. The live show part

1464
01:51:09,079 --> 01:51:13,840
of it that is if I do
have the body Language Panel up. You

1465
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:16,359
can also go to my website podcast
ufo dot com, and over on the

1466
01:51:16,479 --> 01:51:21,239
right hand sidebar you will see our
weekly newsletters. Sign up, you drop

1467
01:51:21,279 --> 01:51:26,279
your email in. It's very simple
and you'll get all notifications. Of course,

1468
01:51:26,359 --> 01:51:29,399
you can remove from the list.
Same thing. You can remove yourself

1469
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:31,920
from the notifications on YouTube if it
gets to be a pain for you.

1470
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:40,239
And so that next week it should
be the body Language Panel talking about UFOs

1471
01:51:40,319 --> 01:51:45,760
and UFO reports and what they thought, and it's pretty amazing. I think

1472
01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:51,720
it'll be very enjoyable. And I
think that is all I have for today.

1473
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:57,000
Again, check out the blog.
You'll get an audio blog if you're

1474
01:51:57,119 --> 01:52:00,239
in the podcast, and we'll be
back next week one way or the other.

1475
01:52:00,319 --> 01:52:06,199
It might be the usual time with
someone from the Hopkinsville Kelly incident.

1476
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:11,439
Anyway, Thanks so much, and
remember to keep your eyes to the sky.