Oh, and welcome to the show this evening. I'm Martin willis your host,
and our guest is John Michael Greer. He has known out there is
j MG, so I'll probably be calling that here and there. Um.
He has a very interesting and comprehensive background. We're going to be talking about
that. He has written another book. Actually, I think he might have
said too, I'm not one hundred percent. I just talked to him about
it on UFOs and the UFO Chronicles, and I think one was just called
the UFO Phenomenon. Now he has a book, his latest one out of
fifty books he's written, and this one's called the UFO Phenomenon, Fact,
Fantasy and Disinformation. Wow. I like actually speaking to people who that are
into a variety of topics and they kind of veer over into this very interesting
one. I like to hear what they have to say about it. So
I believe this is going to be an interesting show. Don't forget to check
out our website Podcast UFO, And while you're there, you can check out
this week's blog by Charles Lear and it's called UFO. UFOs and Automotive Interference
in leveland Texas, a lot of people out there realize that this is a
common thing that'll interfere maybe electromagnetica, who knows what it is. But there
are a lot of cases like this. But this happened back in November of
nineteen fifty seven, actually November second and third in nineteen fifty seven, and
it's a great it's a great blog. Check it out. Also, as
I mentioned before, if you are on our podcast feed where we get your
podcasts, if you are on there, you get an audio blog about midweek,
and so I encourage people to read the blog, of course because there's
all kinds of links in them, but you'll get an audio blog read by
the author himself, Charles Lear, so it'll be writing your podcast feed.
A few things about future shows. If you have not watched the body Language
panel on YouTube about people in the UFO field, I highly recommend it.
There are some great episodes, and they've looked into some note to people in
their UFO stories, and that panel is most likely going to be on next
week, the Panel of four. This is where it gets tricky though.
They do what they do on Tuesday nights, and that's the only time they've
been able to coordinate them all all four to get together, but we're going
to try to work something out. But that will be between on YouTube live
somewhere between Friday and Monday night. It will not be on Tuesday night unfortunately.
The regular time. However, we will have the audio file over to
KGr A Radio and we'll also have the podcast come out at the usual time.
But if you want to get a notification on when that show is going
to play live, if you'd like to be in live and participate in chat
and phone calls and all that. So the way I would suggest to do
that is you go either to my website podcast ufo dot com and on the
right sidebar, you will see a mailing newsletter. You just pop your email
in there, click on the link, click on it, and you will
get a link in you that will be sent to you in your email to
confirm it as as simple as that, and you'll get our weekly newsletter and
it'll tell what time that is, what time and day that'll be playing.
Or you also can subscribe to the YouTube channel and you want to click on
that little bell that's right next to the subscribe button. That bell will send
you notifications an email of what and when things are playing, and if it
gets annoying, you can always click the bell again and that that will shut
it off. As I mentioned, it'll be out. The podcast will be
out on the regular time now. If they just can't get this together and
can't make the show next week, I will have a family member of the
Kelly Hopkinsville encounter at the regular time. So I just had that as a
backup, So that will be that will be coming up now. If you
watch Netflix Unsolved Mysteries the Berkshire UFO, I love that. And coming up,
we have this gentleman on YouTube, you Cancy Tom Warner. I's going
to be on in the Berkshire UFO. Get I recently got him connected to
Philip Mannell. He's writing a he wrote a book and it looks good that
Philip's going to be publishing that and great guy. I've spoken to him on
the phone and so he will be on September first, that's the fifty first
anniversary of that incident. So anyway, for some reason, my screen has
frozen. I'm going to have to take myself out here in a minute.
And and yes, I have to remove myself from the screen for a minute.
I'm not sure how that happened, but no calls tonight. I'm sorry,
we just we just can't take calls the way we had to have our
guests on this evening. However, in the chat room, if you want
to pose a question, I might miss it, So please use all caps
for any questions that you have, and I'll be sure to if it's an
interesting enough question, I'll be sure to ask our guest that question. Getting
back to podcast ufo dot com, we have our Patreon link over there,
and I have done this painting. I think this is going to be my
last UFO painting. For a while, I lived out in the Mill Valley
area in California, actually a town called Tiberon, and I used to drive
by this mountain. It's called Mount tam Lepius, our Mount Tam everyone calls
it Mount Tam. So this is a triangle UFO flying not over the mountain,
but between the mountain and the and myself as I would have painted.
I actually painted this on location and just added the UFO to it. I
think I think it's an interesting painting, so I hope you enjoy that that
It's not even up on our website on my website yet, but if you
go to podcast ufo dot com and on the sidebar and you click the paintings
little banner there. It'll shoot you over and this should be up there in
the next couple of days on the website. That is enough for me,
and welcome to the show, John Michael Creer. Well, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be on. Yes, well, I think you are
a very interesting guy. I'm working. I'm just trying to get these things
down here just a second. Here we go, and I have to what
I have to do. If you could introduce yourself, I actually have to.
I have to take myself out of the stream and back in again because
I'm frozen. So if you could go ahead and introduce yourself and I'll be
right back. Okay, I'm John Michael Greer, as as our host just
said. I'm a writer and a blogger and a researcher into a variety of
strange things, like I'm for many many of our listeners out there. I
got interested in everything weird when I was a kid, when the world was
just obviously the world that I was being told about by my teachers, parents,
etc. Was way too one dimensional. It'll be true, So you
know, I was a webwell eff expert by age eleven. I read a
lot of stuff a boy UFOs, a lot of stuff out and explained phenomena
of all kinds. Ended up getting very deeply into occultism, and one thing
followed another, I ended up with a writing career, writing books on occultism,
writing books on the future industrial society, writing, doing a weekly blog,
all that, all the usual stuff that you do if you want to
make a living with your pen. My research into UFOs began, of course,
quite a long time ago. As I mentioned, I read all kinds
of stuff that was coming out in the early nineteen seventies when I was a
kid, when I was first getting addressed in this stuff, and the conclusions
that I came to. It took a long time for me to figure out
what I think is actually going on here. The conclusions that I've come to
are very different from those that are circulated either among the UFO believer community or
among the shall we call them the pseudoskeptics, the people who insist that anything
they themselves didn't see can't exist. I hope, I hope that nobody will
be too upset by my conclusions I offer them, you know, as my
conclusions. Your mileage may vary, but this is what I've seen, this
is what I've found, and I think you'll plan the interesting. Yeah,
and that's okay, like I've had, I've actually I'm not really sure what
your conclusions are, but um, I want to of course talk about them.
And I'm not afraid actually, because you know, I know a lot
of people hold things really guarded. But I'm just plain old interested in the
topic and different people's thoughts on it. So I'm I'm excited to hear to
hear that you had First, you had the UFL I mean the UFL phenomenon,
and actually after that you changed it to the UFL Chronicles or what is
the right titles. Yeah, that's the new version. The uful Phenomenon was
published quite a few years ago, I think it was two thousand and nine,
and that had kind of the first draft of my argument conclusions, such
evidence as I had been able to gather at that point. After the publisher
let it go out of print, I placed it with another publisher and he
said, this is great. Can you expand it a year later, gotten
much after your manuscript, with a great deal of more information in it.
M I didn't have to. I actually didn't have to modify my conclusions,
but I had I hoped them. I've got some explanations for things that I
had not that I have been still scratching my head my head over, but
it's been quite an adventure. And the thing one of the things that I
find most most baffling really about how so many people relate to the UFO phenomenon
is the idea that if it that it has to be one of two things.
Either UFOs are spacecraft from other worlds or you never saw them, they
didn't exist. That's a really odd belief if you, if you've stoppen and
think about it, why must it be only one of those two things?
Yeah? But are you right? I mean a lot of people do feel
that way, and unfortunately that's actually in a way that's actually hurt. It's
hurt the UFO field in general because or even the word, you know,
the word UFO, people think tinfoil hats and you know, crazy people,
and a lot of people now when they want to talk about this subject,
they're using the word UAP you know, and said just because of the stigma
involved with the UFO, you know, the rolling of the eyes or whatever.
Oh yeah, And the sad thing is that the term UFO came into
being as a replacement just the same kind of thing for flying saucer because they
were back in forty seven, forty eight, forty nine, flying saucer was
the term that everyone used and that got the eye rolls. And then of
course the UFO investigating community came up with the idea of UFO unidentified flying objects
something in the air we can't identify. Nice. But then, of course,
you know, the same the same dynamic played out. I suspect twenty
thirty forty years from now, UAP is going to get the eye roll.
Well, let's come up with something else. Yeah. Well, I don't
know. It feels like the it feels like this a lot of progress in
UM in this you know, this topic. You know, maybe I'm wrong,
but you know, when you get the government to actually UM take an
accountability for UM, you know, their studies and now you know a task
force is being developed, you know, from the Pentagon through the Navy UM
to study study UFOs, what they are and stuff like that. So it
feels like there's forward movement lately. UM. For the last few years,
there there may be there. Maybe I just remind you this has happened before.
Yes, yes, it has, the whole over the whole product bluebook
fiasco. UM. I would argue that there's a reason for that, and
that UM in particular, the investigators who have realized the government is hiding something
and they're heavily involved in this whole business, they're actually onto something very very
important. That's that's part of my part of my argument here, that you
know, there are mysterious things in the sky. They people are seeing things,
and they're are some of them are really quite strange, and the government
is into it up to their eyeballs. But of course, what what I've
been led to, what I've been led to, the conclusion I've reached as
a result of my studies is that there's something that it's not what it's being
claimed to be. It's not what it's being presented. And this whole notion
that it has to be a little green man from the leader, a little
gray manfroms that to Articulie, or it can't exist at all, is part
of the camouflage. So I don't I don't want to jump totally into the
conclusion in the show's all over everything. So I want to I want to
you know, I want to, uh, you know, hear the pieces
of it, UM, and and how you came upon your conclusions. Let's
let's do that, Okay. The first thing that we can do this with
a little bit historically, okay, UM, we can start with the genesis
of the of the the flying saucer. You know, there's the original nineteen
forty seven sighting UM and the flurry, the wave of sightings that followed immediately
thereafter, because it wasn't just you know, the one guy in the airplane.
UM. In the days immediately following his sighting, people all across America
were looking up and noticing little silver dots moving through the sky. Many of
the photographed. In fact, if you go back to old newspapers sometimes you
can find reproductions of the photographs. It's quite interesting, little silver dots moving
always west east. And of course it was in the middle of that of
the whole the Ross Welton popped up and the UM, the or the Army,
the Army Air Corps it was then the Air Force didn't quite exist yet,
announced that a flying saucer had crashed. And then somebody turned around and
said no, no, no, nothing like that, and people immediately said,
oh, they have something to hide. Indeed they did. So that
was that. That was kind of the seed time. That was it is
the beginning of the whole thing, and it caused a great deal of talk,
a great deal of concern. It faded out for a while. People
weren't saying anything except here and there, you'd have somebody would see something odd
in the sky. Then okay, We're moving on to about the early nineteen
fifties, nineteen fifty two with the next really big flap, and all of
a sudden, people are seeing things all over the place. There's a big
sighting over Washington, DC. Things are being tracked on radar, and the
Air Force is making all kinds of claims about no, no, there's nothing
there, and then leaking stuff about how there's you here are these radar things.
There was a there was a regulation past, a federal regulation which applied
to all military personnel, airline pilots, and a variety of other people who
were subject to certain national security regulations. And this rule had put a ten
year prison term for leaking information of UFOs. It was and I think within
the nineteen eighties that was finally repealed. Now here's the fascinating thing. All
of these airline pirrolets. Think of the nash forton Burry sighting, some of
these others air Force and their military personnel. Lots of these people who were
reporting UFOs. None of them were ever charged under that regulation. So very
clearly, something curious is going along here. You don't slap that kind of
draconian penalty and then don't use it. So what was going Okay? So
nineteen fifty four, the UFOs are all over the place. People could go
out. In the late fifties and early sixties, people could go out in
certain areas for you, off the watching parties. You would sit down and
toward the toward evening and get a couple of beers, park yourself on a
hill and watch the sky. And sooner or later you see this little dot
which would fly past, or would turn, it would glint. You couldn't
really see it clearly because it was way up in the sky, but they
were very predicable. These finally they were. People could watch them very easily.
And all the time, of course, the UFO research community was getting
going. You had nightcap um, you had um Oh, there were there
a couple. I'm not forgetting the acronyms just at the moment, but there
were there were a variety of the early very influential UFO research organizations, and
all of them were staffed by spooks. They were full of people from the
US intelligence community or US intelligence assets who nobody would you know who, who
were not necessarily known as such. Um, you had, you know,
some very influential people um in the UFO scene who were in fact um working
for the working for the CIA or one of the other things. At the
same time, you have the emergence of the skeptic scene and people like Donald
Menzellen so on, and they're all full of spooks too. So you know,
the you started, you start to get an idea of what's going on
here. It is not necessarily what it appears to be. The intelligence community
and the military and the US are all over it, and there are things
in the sky. Now, let's take a step back. What was actually
going on in the sky at that time that nobody wanted to talk about,
and this is where we start getting the conclusions. In nineteen forty seven,
the US was conducting secret high altitude balloon tests. We now know about them.
They've been declassified Product Mogul, product flying cloud habit of others. They
were. They appeared when you saw them, like a little silver dot in
the air, moving from right, moving from from west to east, following
the jet stream. Okay, there were Product Mogul in particular was balloons with
these big structures to catch found. The goal was to snoop on secret Russian
nuclear tests, and all of a sudden everyone's talking about UFOs. Nineteen fifty
four and thereafter, the U two, the most secret air plane in the
in the world at that time, the most high altitude plane at that time,
was flying at an altitude where people nobody believed interplance could go. We
now think of U two's as painted black, because they are. Back in
those days, they were barre aluminum. At sunrise or sunset, you see
one of us in the sky, it blazes like a bright red orange light.
And that was what people were going out and seeing on their UFO watching
parties. Okay, the SR seventy one was being tested at the same time,
utterly secret. The first couple of generations of US spy satellites. Now
back in three years before the beginning of the UFO thing. World War two
D Day is coming on, and the US, the US military in the
British military between and cooked up one of the biggest hoaxes in the history of
warfare, manufacturing a fake army right across the English Channel from the Particulai,
the one particular part of France, to convince the Germans that that's where they
were going to invade, and of course they moved their actual armies for their
western invaded in Normandy. They faked up the Germans completely. They had inflatable
tanks, they had non existent military units, they had teams of actors designed
to make themselves look really busy to confuse earlier reconnaissance. It was brilliant.
That same pattern of thought, I argue, is what guided the manufacture of
the UFO phenomenon. Basically, we need to hide these things from the Russians.
What are we going to do what We can't pretend there's nothing in the
air. Okay, there's obviously something here. I know, let's convince everyone
there's little green men from Mars and that. I am convinced that's not all
that's going on with THEO phenomenon. There are one of the great problems with
the phenomenon is that it's not just one thing. There's a variety of things
happening. But one of the core elements of the story is the US Air
Force intelligence in particular has been playing this thing from the beginning as a way
to cover up its own its own activities and to cover up what we're testing
in the air. Here's another example you mentioned, trying us. Do you
remember when those first showed up? Yeah? There, Well, Dave Marler
is what who do you consider the expert. There have been some that have
showed all the way back I believe in the early twentieth century, um as
far as UM, as far as the masses of them starting um, the
late nineteen seventies. UM, I know you know a few people personally that
I've seen them, Like in nineteen seventy eight, there were a few of
them. There were a few of them the very late in nineteen seventies.
They really took off in the nineteen eighties. What other Black Triangle was suddenly
was was of top secret military importance in the right about that time, stealth
technology. Yeah, I thought you're going to say that. Um. Now
I do want to I do want to pause you right there though for a
minute, ahead, go ahead, I know I can do. I tend
to get excited and run go ahead. Um. Well, there's a lot
of cases that something like this doesn't fit so and and that's what I just
want to bring up, and that is, you know, for instance,
thousands of people saw the Phoenix lights and that was miles miles wide, not
you know, multiple miles wide, and a lot of people say the same
thing. You know, maybe there is a technology where they can float with
no sound and like anti gravity or whatever it is they're doing. And uh,
but when something is massive, you know, I just can't see.
And a lot of people are claiming to see things you know, at least
several hundred yards wide and longer and wider um. So that that's where it
just is a puzzle. And uh, go on, go on. No
that that that that doesn't fit a lot of where I think you're going.
Well again, one of the that's that's why I make the crucial point view
of the UFO phenomenon is not just one thing. Yeah, it's basically what
we've got going on here is a situation where there is let's let's let's talk
about let's let's say there's a social phenomenon called the UFO. We all have
that image of the flying saucer in our minds. Um, We've all we
all grew up at this point with the idea of little green men and flying
saucers from Mars or what have you, as part of our culture, part
of one of our cultural myths, if you will. And so around that
set of images, various different groups of people have been manipulating those things.
And there may be other things entirely unrelated to UM people that also have something
to do with this. One of the things that I think has really gotten
misplaced in the whole um the recent UFO researcher generally, again, it's getting
stuck in that notion that that a UFO has to be an alien spacecraft or
it never existed at all. Back in the nineteen fifties, there were there
was a lot of much more um, much more flexible, much more open.
You know, what could these things be? Um? There were there
were there were several people who proposed they might be living things from the upper
atmosphere. There were UM, there were theories that they were coming from the
oceans. Ivan Sanderson wrote a fascinating book about that, and broadly speaking,
UM, I think I think in some ways in those days we were closer
to the answers precisely because people were not stuck on one answer for everything.
The thing that I've been talking about, the series of disinformation campaigns carried out
first by US military intelligence and then more generally as other countries got into the
got into the stick. Um, that's one important thread. It's not the
whole story, but it's a very important thread. And watching if you watch
some of the important cases, like the whole Paul Benefits thing. Um,
it was said the way he was said, disinformation by Air Force intelligence at
literally sane ended up in a because they just they fit him, all of
this bizarre paranoiac stuff, all of which ended up getting retailed into the broader
UFA community. Um. That's a classic example. Um. The evidence that
I've found that I covered in my book shows that what happened there is a
benewits. Without without realizing it, he was trying to research UFOs, he
actually ended up snooping on um top secret project that's at the Sandy Laboratories.
And so the intelligence services said, I know how to fix this, and
proceeded to say, to feed him gibberish until he cracked, so he so
they could distract him from what was actually going on. And so that's a
great example of again one of the threads that's going on here. Um.
But the thing is, it's a weird there's a whole UFO thing. It's
very strange, and it's never it's not you can't just flat it out into
a single answer. Yes, I think that's kind of one of the things
that keeps me really fascinated by it because you know, I've said many times
in the show, I feel like I know less than when I started,
you know, almost nine years ago. But because it is and I do
agree one hundred percent, there isn't just one answer, and there could be
many answers, and they could be answers to some of it we wouldn't even
understand. That's a very good point. Going back to the triangles though,
you were going somewhere with that about the stealth the stealth fighters, okay,
stealth fighter, sealth bomber, a couple of other airplanes that are still top
secret, of the t R three black Man to which technical reconnaissance and the
the SR ninety two Aurora, another big big triangular stealth plane. It's been
sighted a couple of times. No one's managed to photograph it yet, but
respected authorities say that it exists. It doesn't get out much because it uses
extremely complex, extremely expensive technology. It takes like a million dollars a flight
to keep that puppy in the air, so we don't see much of it.
Do you remember when the SR seventy one was retired and it's spent about
it not about ten years being modeled, and then all of a sudden we
were using SR seventy ones again. That's when the Aurora finally became It became
obvious the Aura was simply too expensive to use. So we have these stealth
planes, but we also have these black triangles that kind of drift slowly by
and not much more than tree top level. Maybe you know, some people
listening here a very faint and buzz as those a small engine is going.
Other people don't hear anything at all. They're outline with lights. If you
get a good view of them, you may see a kind of framework and
the lights are connected to what exactly that is. It's a fascinating question,
But the US government has been doing research into airships lighter than air airships for
quite some time now. And my guess is what is what happens at least
some of those black triangles, That's what they are. And are they actual
a military technology anything? You know, they're there to fake people out.
They're part of the cap They're like the inflatable tanks around over So you get
you get basically a big airship with a lot of bright lights and you cruise
it over a freeway so a thousand people see it. Okay, now we
have um let's call him bordhist bad enough, we have a Russian spy.
He wants to find out about these these weird these weird stories about black triangle,
black triangular aircraft. What is what is the US up to? And
most of what he hears about are these slow floating things to go drifting over
you know, Westchester, New York or what have you. Um, he's
going to be hopelessly confused. He's not going to be able to get through
that, to the through that noise, to the signal, which is that
we've got a stealth we've got a working stealth technology and they don't. So
it's always necessary in this, in this sort of thing to say Okay,
who be faking what? And what will what will they be covering by it?
And so that's that's basically where I was going there. We have the
stealth planes, the ones that are that are publicly admitted, the ones that
are still top secret. Um, we have something else, which is of
course very secret, which is drifting along a tree top level, freaking people
out on highways and gathering crowds of thousands, um, drawing as much attention
to itself as possible. You'll notice that a lot of the the the slow
moving black triangle things, they go out of their way to be seen.
Yeah, I have to agree with you. Um, you know a lot
of people will will you know, make a suggestion, well, um,
they're military possibly you know, trying to fly over populated areas, so um,
just to see what the public reaction is. I've heard that. I've
heard that argument a number of times. Yeah, um, yeah, but
I don't think it's just for the public reaction, going no, no,
no, no, finish your thought on that. And I have a question
I wanted to pull up on Chat. It's it's not it's not it's not
a public reaction. It's distract you know, if you ever watch a stage
magician when he's about to do something with his left hand, he makes these
big gestures with his right hand, so everyone's looking at the right hand.
Nobody watches them pull the extra as out of his pocket. That's what's going
on here. You have to source the disinformation. Watch where things are coming
out. Now, again, this will not solve the OUFO cases. But
if we can get the air force out of the picture, if we can
figure out what has been manufactured, is disinformation suite that aside with a better
shot at understanding what's left of the picture. Now, go on, You
got a question, Yeah, that makes makes a lot of sense. I'll
say, Mary Grace has this question for you. Those little this goes back
to what we were talking about earlier. You were talking about earlier, those
little shiny dots in the sky during the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, they
have been the palladium spheres attached to balloons. I'm not sure what palladium spheres
are actually, that's that's primarily. Yes, the palladium is a rare metal
and um. They were using it to coate various things in um in some
of the various secret tests that they were doing. It's very reflective and so
um yeah, that actually is probably one of the things that was spotted in
the nineteen the late ninety forties and early nineteen fifties when we're doing all these
top secret balloon tests. So yes, yeah, yeah, Okay, Well
again I'm going to keep an eye on chat and uh and if I see
a good question, I'll pop that in there and ask you. So all
right, and um, you know I I you're right about also about the
triangles, as far as you know what people have said. You know,
some people do hear the buzzing sound. Um. I also had a friend
that I was in contact with when she was a young girl, about nine
or ten years old, and she's in her thirties now, and she was
in she lives in Australia, and when she was out in the garden with
her I believe it was her grandmother, all of a sudden she felt this
pressure, this pressure that like almost forced her to the ground. She got
down on the ground and felt an extreme pressure. Just the sky dark and
and she looked up in a big, huge triangle was like floating over her
without any noise, And that's what got her fascinated in the topic. Now,
did her grandmother see the triangle? Oh? Yeah, they both did.
Yeah, Okay, okay, that's one of the one of the things
that that also has to be peeled out of the UFO phenomenon. One of
the other sources of interest is we we as a society, American society,
modern Western industrial society ignores human visionary experience. Okay, people see things things
that are real on some plance, certainly most you know, most other society
would say, well, you know, this is a spiritual thing, or
this this belongs to to the other world. Jacques Valat one, of course,
one of the great UFO researchers, his book Passport to Magonia, which
pointed out that an enormous amount of well, certain aspect of UFO lore has
exact equivalent in medieval fairy lore, come all the way down to abductions,
and you know, he just he just sort of put up the parallels.
And this is something Patrick Harper in his book Demonic Reality, which is a
must read. Frankly, he again points out we don't live in the kind
of flat, two dimensional prosaic world that we're taught we live in where we
live in a world that is interpenetrated by strange things. And since most people
in the industrial world have no way of understanding that because they've been taught not
to. They've been taught a radically incomplete view of what the world is.
If they have a visionary experience, what are they going to think of it?
How are they going to interpret it? You know, this weird they
watched this, your thing moved through the sky. Um, you know two
thousand years ago somebody would have looked as, oh, you know, spirits
are doing something or what have you. But they all they have to The
only explanation they have is wow, that must have been aliens. No,
so that's that's another level of confumed start go ahead. No, No,
I was I was agreeing with what you were saying, that's all. Yeah.
Yeah, so you know that's another that's another source of input. And
it's not I would stress, is not a source of confusion. It's not
something we should ignore, we should get away from. We should you know,
act like a skeptic and turn our backs on what people are actually seeing.
Um, it's important in traditional societies when strange things were seen in the
air, people paid attention to His scholars noted governments said, Okay, what
does that mean, Because these kinds of visionary experiences when they happen, they
have a message. They're not just they're not just stuff that happens. Carl
Jung understand that, understood that very well in his book On You. He
stressed that one way to understand them was as as a visionary experience is something
that people were encountering the circular symbol of unity at a time when the world
was divided down the middle between the communists and is blocked in the West,
these classic symbols of polarity and harmony at a time when nations were threatening to
blow each other up with nuclear bombs. And he basically psychoanalyzed the world using
UFOs as the dreams. And that's another to my mind, that's a very
important part of the whole riddle that we need to understand that the UFOs are
one of the places where prosaic experience and visionary experience, with the inside of
our mind and the outside of our mind flow together. And so that's one
of the things that makes it so interesting to me. It's not just out
you know, the truth is not just out there. The truth is inside
us. As well. Yeah, Yeah, we had a guest on not
that long ago, maybe a month or two that was actually kind of going
down the line where you're just talking about, I have a question up here
from Shawnee and how do you explain the interference with ICBMs and are you familiar
with that that there has been you know, reactions and actions of UFOs over
you know, military weapons and things like that. The first thing to ask
yourself is where are you getting this information from? In every case that I
don't know, you know, she can correct me if I'm wrong here,
But in the case of that that I know of, all of these reports
are coming out of the military from military personnel. Now, military personnel who
speak about something like that without the approval of their officers are going to end
up in whose game, So you know that what they're saying is being improved
by their superiors. That's one of the major sources of the disinf ration we
face, because you know, the military is perfectly willing to have people say,
wow, that must have been from outer space when they were testing something.
Um, So always look for the source. Where is this information coming
from, who is generating it, who is putting it out there? Because
that's again that's where you see the stage radician dips and through his pocket and
pull out the extra as Yeah, you know, I don't know, you
know, I know I know someone personally, UM, that I talked to
now and then, and I just can't see him as someone that would be
deceiving people all these years. And there are some documents that to back up
some of these things too, that have been um, you know, have
been received through the Freedom of Information ACTUM. And there's a there's a lot
going on when it comes to um UFOs and nukes, even nuclear power plants,
you know, and you name it. There's there's quite a bit connected.
So that that that's a whole topic that deserves a good look. And
my power plants or another matter, because they're again many of those sightings have
not been personnel. Those have been like neighbors, people in the area.
And that's another thing. And that's so that there again look for your source.
No, I don't obviously I don't know the person that you know,
I don't know, you know, the basis for your assumption that they can
be trusted, um, you know, you may well be right, but
it's a complicated world out there. And there are a lot of people playing
some very complicated games in it. And okay, just in just in a
case like this, since we're on this topic in particular, UM, I
do understand like if there's a you know, there's a military issue, um,
you know, a new craft that's out or something like that that they
you know, they want to test and they maybe want to get a reaction
or distract someone from seeing what. I want to make sure those Russians in
the Chinese don't figure out what it is. So yeah, but then you
have, um, you know, our weapons, according to some our weapons
are are messed with and altered. And um this happened even in Russia,
not just here, you know, it happened all over a lot of places
in the country. Um, So this happens. There's no just there's nothing
to distract anyone from. It doesn't make sense that the military would make up
a story about something like this and release something like this, because what could
be distracting. There's no there's no secret stealth bomber that they're trying to hide.
When it comes to the you know, nuclear weapons being messed with,
well, actually we don't know that. We don't know what they are testing
in the way of for example, UM anti missile defense systems. Okay,
now, the nuclear the nuclear reactors are to my mind the more interesting one,
precisely because there it's not coming from inside channel, so it's coming from
p from ordinary people who are simply witnessing it. But UM, and you
know, I'll certainly I'll certainly reconsider if I find if I find out that
UM reports of UFOs apparently messing with ICBMs are coming from outside government channels.
UM. Anything. The thing to remember is anything that comes out of the
government has to be suspect. You have to assume that they are you know,
they are telling you what they want you to sink, not telling you
what they know. And we've seen that so many times in so many places,
and and that that skepticism toward anything that comes out of the government,
especially when you know the the usual gimmick the group of UM Air Force intelligence
officers who say, well, we're members of a secret group that's the post
to UFO secrecy, and we're going to pass onto you all these secrets.
And then we get the m J twelve documents, we get the Project Aquarius
documents, we get the planets sur prodocuments, um, all the same stuff.
M Well, UM, I do I do have to tell you,
I two hundred percent agree with you that, Um, you know, our
government doesn't is not always truthful. There's many many cases of that. No,
No, no government can ever be truthful. They've always got secrets to
hide. And you know there are there are valid secrets. I mean I
don't particularly want the Russians and the Chinese to know exact everything we've got.
Um. That doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Um.
And every government also keeps harmful secrets. They want to conceal who's been dipping
their hands to the public till and who wasted how much money on on such
and such project because they were trying to you know, bang the group and
bang you know the wife of the of the the industrialists or something. All
the all the the tacky little secrets that every government ends up full of.
Um. Yeah, No, governments are always hiding things. The question is
how do we get past that? And and you know, set those aside
and say, okay, we can't really trust that. What are our other
sources of information? And if we can pursue the UFO phenomenon, that way
and pick it apart into the into the different phenomena they're being lumped together here.
I think it's possible to make some real headway. Yeah, very good.
Let's go back to way way back, and that is to Roswell.
What's your opinion of Roswell? Okay, Roswell is a really complicated situation.
Um. So we know something happened there, we know something crashed. Um.
Most of the published accounts UM have been our frankly full of fiction.
And I include the skeptic accounts as well as the believer accounts. If you
look at, for example, what was the oh I'm forgetting the name of
the book in the early nineteen to late ninety seventies that really putting Roswell on
the map in late nineteen seventies. Oh yeah, I know what you mean.
Now, let's and two more, uh yeah more. Now, the
thing if the thing about that, if you read that book and then you
go to the fake crash at Aztec, New Mexico, and that was a
complete that was a complete hoax that was come up with a couple of by
a couple of confidence. Man was busted in the early nineteen fifties. Um,
Burl's Moore at all took details from the from the account of the Aztec
crash come up with with by those the two con men, and put them
into their account of the Prosswell thing. They literally padded it out with material
from another source, and people have been repeating that uncritically ever since. UM.
One of the real problems with the whole the animosity between the skeptics and
the believers at this point, is that both sides are become so focused on
trying to prove a point that they don't do the necessary research. UM might
take this is now, this is a tentative, this is this is quite
tentative. But my take is that there was something that crash shot Roswell.
It was probably one of the secret balloon tests. I don't think it was
Project Mobile that was. That's the one that's usually been credited, the one
with the big complicated huha that was trying to detectum sound waves from from Russian
nuclear tests. There were several things up there, several things being tested Highnammeister,
and some of them remained secret to this day. UM. I think
I know what one of them is. I don't know if this is what
was being tested at Roswell, but or what crashed at Roswell during those of
those tests. But you've got to put yourself in the in the mind space
of the late ninety forties, early nineteen fifties, this is before icbams.
This is when nuclear weapons were delivered by bomber and when American military planners were
petrified the thought of the Russians. You know, the Russians have these huge
factories. They they're turning out bombers at a fantastic base. They've got the
nuclear bomb or in the in the light late ninety forties, we're about to
get it. Everyone knew that, and how do you stop them? We'd
seen in World War Two that fighter planes can can stop a lot of bombers,
but they can't stop them all. And the last you know, so
the nightmare of American strut planners in those days was bomber streams coming over the
poll from Russia, each one carrying a nuclear bomb, and how many of
them would get through. So the response to that is a program. It
was a project. I mean, this is this in my theory. Okay,
there was a project, this is fact called Operation Flying Cloud. Operation
Flying Cloud was a project that was meant to loft atomic bombs on high altitude
balloons. Right now, that's crazy for most purposes. You can't steer a
hile to do balloon. It goes over, it wants to you. You
know, if you try to use those from bomber Russia, you'd probably he's
likelyhead another country. But there's one hideously effective use for that, lofting those
bombs into a bomber stream. If you can imagine an atomic bomb, a
Hiroshima sized bomb, going off in the middle of a bomber formation a mile
a second later, all those bombers are scrapped, then their nuclear bombs are
blown to pieces. That's my theory of what was behind a lot of a
lot of the balloon tests that are still secret in the late nineteen forties and
run the nineteen fifties, especially run nineteen fifty two. We had come up
with that at the last ditch emergency defense in case the Russians attacked with nuclear
weapons, the case they sent those bomber fleets, and it's still secret to
this day. A because it's still a backup, it's still available, and
b because to make it work we probably would have had to launch the balloons
of our Canada, and in other words, what we're saying is we were
preventing nuke the Canadians in order to save the United States. And can you
mentione the international scandal of that came out. So basically, I don't know
if it was a Project Flying Cloud thing that came the crash down or something
in the developmental stages of that that they ended up crashing out Roswell. That's
one theory. It might have been Project Mogul, It might have been a
balloon system one of the balloon tests we haven't even heard about yet. But
that's my guess of what actually happened. And then what happened after that,
after Moore and Burlit's at all picked up the Roswell thing, patted out with
materials from the fate from the aspect fraud, and ran with it, is
that that became another place for disinformation. That became another place for people who
had connections to a US Air Force intelligence could pad out the mythology and fill
fill in details and make it richer and more laverage so people would look at
aliens and not at Project Flying Cloud. Well, well, here's my argument
for that. In particular, there's feedback. I'm gonna just pull you out.
You'll be able to hear me. So this uh, this, uh,
it doesn't fit because in a way it doesn't fit. And that is
because when this came out that you know, they captured a flying disc of
flying saucer and then they showed them the balloon. They said it was just
a weather balloon, and all that the story died. The story died for
many many years, and then witnesses in the Roswell area were contacted when this
story became you know, uh back into the stream, and so they were
contacted you know directly, and former military and retired military and all that.
So I don't see where you're talking about the Aztec crash how that could have
got mixed in since you know, there were a few years apart, and
that story was already out on its own and Roswell was sleeping for many many
years before it came back to life. Well the same No, the point
about about the asset crashes specifically, if you read burl its more at all,
if you read their their groundbreaking the book, the book that brought um
rosewell back into public awareness. Okay, and you go back and you read
the accounts of the Aztec crash at the time. But there was a book.
Of course, you'll find entire sections of pros that were the burlots that
are literally lifted out of the Aztec book and plugged into their account. That's
what I'm saying about the Aztec thing. And you're saying the witnesses of the
people that plugged this in. No, I'm saying that. Um, I'm
taught again. I'm talking about burlats and more. And was it Condero was
the third other? I forget who the third author was that they plugged it
in. But how could they do that? I mean, what what access
would they have all time? Now again, all they have to do is
get a copy of the book you a Flying Saucer Crash at Astec. I
forget the exact title. It was something like that. It was a published
book, Okay, it was readily available. They doubtless had a copy it
was. I mean, I read it back in the day and all they
had to do was TYPEE type details out of book A into their manuscript.
That's what I'm saying. It didn't have anything witnesses at all. I'd had
to do with writers who were more interest in the sensational story than in the
facts. So you're saying people like Bill Moore and the other the co author
or Bill wrote the first book that Stan Friedman was involved in. Bill Moore
was up to his eyeballs in Air Force intelligence. He's admitted. Yeah,
yeah, that's I know that he's admitted it. So again, what's your
look for your source. As for Charles burletz Um, who was the primary
author of the whole thing, um, let's just say that his his literary
output generally involved a lot of playing fast and loose with facts. He was
a sensationalist. He was good at it. He's really good at it.
If you if you want to know how to write sensational literature, he you
know, his books are great if you want to know the facts that don't
use his stuff because he would. He was like Eric Vandanakan, you know,
another another really good, really successful writer who loved to play asked to
lose with the details. Yeah, well, you know, there's a lot
of people that have been interviewed, um that you know by I believe it's
six hundred witnesses supposedly in all that kind of share the same story. So
um, you know, I don't know how many firsthand witnesses there were actually,
but there were a lot of them supposedly that were interviewed UM in the
beginning, not not by just Bill Moore and his co author, but Kevin
Randall, Um, John Schmidt, and Um I'm forgetting just Adam. There's
been a whole series of of of UFO believer interviews. There have also been,
of course, quite a few interviews conducted by the other side, and
it's very interesting to watch the competing conclusions between them. Um, it's like
a car wreck. We all know that when when ten people see the via
car wreck, they present ten different um, ten different statements. And if
they've all watched, if they all have to watch repeated documentaries about car Wrex
since you know, since the time twenty years ago, whenever, that's going
to save their stories. It's watching this whole thing become more and more elaborated
has been. It's it's intriguing to watch, and it would be really interesting
to know what's going on behind it. I just I don't find a lot
of the claims that have been most of the claims that are currently being made
about Roswell, I don't find them plausible and again your mileage may vary.
I'm not saying you have to believe me. I'm saying this is my view.
I think it's very possible by the way that there may have been there
may have been corpses, that there may have been one or more people on
board that was done in some of the balloon tests, and exactly you know
exactly whether they were smaller than usual, I don't claim to know, but
again, we don't know what exactly was being test did there? Um?
Now you do that there were a lot of balloon tests going on, a
lot of exotic ones, and some of them are still very secret. Um.
A lot a number of people have said that they saw the debris field
as this very large field. I can't remember exactly the dimensions of it,
but it was vast. And you know this, whatever whatever hit was big.
Yeah, And is that that's case in the cloud whatever the cloud balloon
you mentioned? You know, we don't we don't know. We literally have
no idea how big goes. It's all classified. It's all still classified.
Something was being tested in the late forties and it's still under lock and key.
Um, that's unusual, isn't it? For all this time? To
go buy in it. It's rather unusual. That's one of the things assassinating.
But in fact, if you look up operations Flying Cloud, if you
look up um US balloon experiments, you'll find scattered references to Flying Cloud.
So it was a definitely it actually existed. We just don't know what they
were up to. Um In the same way umbly, the Project Mogul,
the big the sound listening things, the super the substructure for those, the
sound coastra instructure was huge. It was very light, but it was huge
because they were trying to catch you know, shock ways from nuclear blasts in
you know, the in Siberia coming out US over the pole. So they
have these huge concentrating patterns leading into microphones that would also leave a large debris
field. Interesting. Wow. Hey, well we are ready to go into
our break now, So we're going to have a break about about four minutes
long. Now. During this break, if you're on YouTube, and I'll
actually keep this in the podcast as well, I'm going to be playing a
clip for my good friend Alejandro Rojas. He interviewed Luis Alexando the other day,
So I am going to play that clip and and also I'm on his
show every Friday, so I try to be I didn't actually make the last
two, but we'll be right back on KGr A Radio right after these messages
and for YouTube hanging there for this clip. Now. One of the topics
that would brought up recently in the New York Times, and I know you've
spoken about this a little bit on Fox News, and I've asked you about
this a couple of times. Is the topic of UFO crashes and the way
the New York Times framed it is at a couple of you at TPSA at
least a few are convinced that this is a reality, that this is something
that's happened. First of all, is that framing accurate? And you know,
is that topic kind of been raised also as a check to for these
reports that hey, you know, if there is something out there on this
topic, we want you all to share that information as well. So let
me go back to through original statement about those people that you know an our
organization that are convinced. And We've said this before, there's a fundamental difference
between what someone believes, what someone thinks, and what someone knows right.
So I don't ever want to cross that barrier of what I think. In
fact, a few times have been pushed, you know, to a corner
on this question. I've tried very diligently to deflect, because at the end
of the day, it doesn't matter what Luis Alisondo things or believes. What
matters is what the data shows. What do we have empirical data evidence that
can speak for itself. Now we know that this planet we live on,
Earth is visited by extraterrestrials all the time. Now wait before I go down
that road. People say, oh my god, lose saying aliens. We
have meteor rights, and we have debris from comets on a daily basis,
coming in, re entering the Earth's atmosphere, getting caught in Earth's gravity,
coming in and plopping down here sometimes in people's living rooms. Believe it or
not? Right, So this is the universe is not static. It is
dynamic. It is always changing. Things are always happening, And so the
is are the things some of these things that are found here on this planet
engineered? Are they are they? Let's go this step beyond. Is it
possible that some of these things that have been found that we know are not
from this planet? Are they natural? Occurring things such as, you know,
meteor rights or whatnot meteorites or are these something that had some sort of
intelligence behind them, if you will, in their in their in their design,
and their function. So that's the question, and the bottom line is
we're still trying to answer that question. Yes, I'm obviously deflecting your question
here in the plate ist way possible, but I'm always very careful to stipulate
what I think. Look, the Internet and social media is full of people
of expousing what they think, and at the end of the day, I
think most Americans are probably tired about hearing what about what other people think.
Let's try to focus on the areas we don't know yet, and let's try
to provide information and data and evidence that can help us answer some of these
questions. Uh, I'm not sure if you've heard any of what I just
said. I didn't want to end the Roswell's story right there, because you
know, first of all, I have a feeling that we probably never really
know what actually happened there. But are you open to the fact that you
know, maybe something else happened other And then where are you're going with this?
In particular? Basically, the thing is all I can do is offer
a hypothesis. That doesn't mean I don't I don't claim to know the truth.
And sometime I wouldn't there, you know, and so did it?
Might something else have happened? Yes, But I'm what I'm thinking is that
all the evidence suggests to me that what we're dealing with here is a balloon
crash that has been systematically surrounded with um deceptive camouflage to try to distract people's
attention. That's my call. I don't claim to be omniscient. Could it
be something else as opposed? So, but that's my best call as far
as I can tell. Oh, yeah, well, I don't know anything
else you want to add about Roswell before we move on to something else,
No, Roswell. One of the real problems with with UFO research recently,
to my mind, is there's been this endless focus on a very small number
of old cases. In many cases cases you know, missusing repeating the word
unfortunately. But in many cases it's things that have been dug over and dug
over and dug over an endless number of times, and we don't know and
probably never will know in some of these cases what happened there. So this
is one of the places where a broader view I think might be useful.
So no, we can, we can move on to something else if you
like. Yeah, I was just looking to see if there's anything in the
chat on that, on that in particular, you know, I you know,
the first thing that comes to mind is I always think, well,
you know, why why would the Air Force even put that out there to
begin the army Air Force put that out there to begin with? You know
the fact that uh, you know, they say flying disc found, but
you know, you make the point or you have made the point a number
of times that you know, don't trust them because there it has to do
with something else, and that would be a good point. Actually in this
particular case exactly they're saying flying disc crashed rather than saying, um, oh
yes, this top secret military products of ours just crashed. And I'm sure
they had to scramble around very fast to find a diffused weather balloon that they
could display to the to the reporters the next day. Yeah, I mean,
as Steven puts on, you know, on the chat here, why
did the Air Force call the newspaper? You know, why did they call
them in the first place, and that you know that does that that is
something to be questioned, because you know, it's not like everyone in the
world knew anything happened at all. But since people were seeing things ever since
that the original sighting over Mount Rainier, um, since people were paying attention
to things in the sky, feeding them with the idea that they're flying saucers
rather than balloon tests, would have been crucial just then again to distract the
attention to the Russians. So this would have been if one of the you
know, balloon tests crashed there. There was probably some very very fast conversations
over the phone between Roswell and Washington, DC, and somebody's in Air Force
Intelligence, very high up, says, tell him it's a flying disc tell
him you know, um, let's let you've heard you heard this whole Kennel
Kenneth Arnold thing about flying saucers. Let's claim it's that. And from there
the whole thing developed. Yeah. I bet you're not saying in particular that
you think Kenneth Arnold saw nothing or saw something that was you know, a
potential cover up. You saw something. No, I mean I think it's
Kenneth Arnold that's a good case to start with because Arnold wasn't experienced pilot um.
He was experience and experienced spotter. He was used to you know,
spotting um fires, forest fires from the sky. He knew how to observe.
So when he said he saw something strange flying near mount right in here,
we need to stop and say, okay, he saw something strange,
what was it? Good question, that's you know, that's the really interesting
question. What was it? Um? And now now at this point that
we're going to get into something a little strange here because what he saw was
not a disk if you actually read him account, and if you you know,
it was crescent shaped, yes, yeah, it was crescent shaped with
a little point in the back. It was moving very quickly. There.
There was a flight of them. And yet because he said to him the
movement appeared to be like a stone or a plate. You know, if
you throw a stone across the water, just right into the way, it
skips, and that's you can do that with a saucer as well. And
that's why he mentioned the word saucer. And all of a sudden it was
flying saucer. All of a sudden, it was flying disc. Now Here's
where things get interesting, because I cared to guess where the image of the
flying disc came from and when it got started. Did you have put a
note where the flying disc started the idea of the flying disc? Where that
got going first before nineteen forty seven, long before nineteen forty seven. I
nope, I can't think of where that would be fiction. It was invented
by science fiction cover artists for the early SF pulps. They started doing disc
shaped aircraft, and then those turned to disc shaped spacecraft, and it caught
on. It was fat, it was a fat it was a fashion and
so in the years leading up to nineteen forty seven, if you walked past
a news stand you need back in those days you a news stands just by
everywhere the magazines brightly colored covers. You would probably you had a very good
chance of seeing a flying saucer on the cover of science fiction magazine. And
of course there were lots of science fiction magazines in those days. That was
the golden age of the of the early golden age of the genre, and
so this idea of disc shaped aircraft really picked up being fashionable. You found
all kinds of illustrations and dating back to nineteen twelve. This idea got going
in people's minds, and so when Kenneth Arnold saw a crescent shaped aircraft.
My theory is there was actually am a flying wing, probably formerly German.
They had. If you looked at the image of the German flying wings,
they have roughly that shape. But but I'm not I'm not wedded to that
explanation. It's just one possibility. But Kenneth Arnold saw a crescent shape,
and all these people look up in the sky in the days immediately after his
report saw little silver, little silver dots. Okay, but everyone thought they
saw flying discs. Everyone thought the self flying saucers, because that's what they
were prompted to see. And at this point we're not talking in the air
force. But this is one of the things that I didn't I had not
been able to chase down at the time of the earlier book, The UFA
Phenomenon. But in my current book, The UFA Chronicles, I was finally
able to figure out what was going on there. Why that idea of flying
discs from other planets suddenly showing up all over the world, how that gone
into public circulation before the UFOs were first sighted well before Kenneth Arnald. I
mean, we can talk in a little bit about things being seen in the
sky dating back into prehistory. Because of worth that happened. It was deliberate,
It was not done by the government, what had What happened was that
in the immediately after World War Two, immediately after Hiroshima, an enormous number
of people were, of course very worried that World War three would break out
very soon and that we would all die. And a group of people involved
in this kind of intersection between the science fiction scene and the occult scene,
Raymond Palmer was at the heart of this, the legendary science fiction editor of
Amazing Stories later founder of Fate magazine, so on. A group of people
around him seemed to have come up with a plan of saturating the media with
the idea that flying saucers were going to come and rescue us from the risk
of nuclear war. Story after story after story after story saturated the pulp magazines
all on that theme. There there were hundreds of them, and cover illustrations
showing, you know, green aliens descending from flying saucers all over the place.
They were literally priming the public imagination. Now I don't think they were
expecting what happened when some when Kantaz Arnold saw whatever it was he saw,
and people started looking up, A wow, look at those dogs. Those
must be those flying saucers. You know I read about in in you know,
amazing stories. But that's that seems to be what happened. That it
was literally it was in effect an attempt to um to keep people, to
keep the world from blowing itself up, by getting the idea out there that
there were alien intelligence watching us, that there were other beings from other worlds
looking down at us. And you know, it's it's it's really clever psychology.
Jean Paul Stars, the existentialist philosopher, has this great piece in his
in his book Being in Nothingness, you imagine yourself and imagine yourself at a
keyhole. You're looking through a keyhole at something. Well we don't have to
add talk about what you're looking at through a key hole, but you're looking
at something through key hole. All your attentions is on what's on the other
side of the keyhole. Then all of a sudden you hear something behind you
and you realize somebody's been watching you look through the key hole, and all
of a sudden, your entire state of mind changes. You're not paying attention
to the keyhole. You're turning bright red because you know, somebody just caught
you. What Ray Palmer and the Rain, Me Lane and a range of
other people who worked with them. We're trying to do let's get that reaction
to get people goop. Somebody's watching us. Maybe we shouldn't be so stupid
about throwing nuclear bombs around. Did they succeed? Will never know, certainly
we're still here. But that's that was the thing that I happened to being
able to trace down the what was it? The prime to the popular imagination
to look for for flying discs, to see anything in the sky and identify
it as a flying disc for another planet. That this was. There was
this organized attempt using science fiction primarily, but motivated from within the occult community
to carry this thing out. It's an amazing story. Again, it's covered
in detail in my book The UFOL Chronicles. All Right, well do you
um you know, I mean the sighting than I had. The only sighting
that I think was you know, really a solid sighting was was a disc
a disc right over my head? You know with a light blue hue to
it. Uh no, sound stopped and then took an angle toward towards Monterey
when I was out in California, and uh, I can't it sounds like
you're going on almost down the line of this is a pop culture phenomenon that
influenced people. Um, but well, when I when you're sitting there and
your mind is you know, I've been a hot tub many times and relaxing
and looking up at the satellites moving over and and never even thinking about a
UFO, and then all of a sudden that appears there It is, yeah,
and this is this is this is where you have to remember the sort
of thing that that Patrick Harper was talking about in demonic reality. We do
not live in the prosaic universe we think we live in. And when when
I say something is a pop culture phenomenon, that doesn't mean that it's just
limited to the pages of pop culture magazines. People experience these things. The
crucial thing we have that that the thing the skeptics can deal with is that
people are actually seeing strange things in the sky. Now in anyone in a
given case, can I be identified for sure what it is? No,
not necessarily. Um, what did you see? I don't know. Um,
I'm I'm sure you saw something, and I'm sure it probably was basically,
you know, a bluish disc that you know, did an angle and
z and zipped away. Many people have seen those. Um, that's where
we start getting into the interesting part of the story, because that's something that
is not almost certainly not being manufactured by the Air Force. Yeah, and
you know, I'm not I have no idea what it was. I'm not
claiming that it was, you know, aliens, I don't know what it
was, but I sure know that it was something. And you know,
that's why I'm having this show right now. Was that that influence exactly and
that openness to you know, to remember that UFO means unidentified flying object,
flying object, we don't know what it is. That, to my mind,
is the thing that too many people lose in the in all the backing
and forth room of UFOs, that you know, we don't know, and
as long as we may we remain stuck on specific theories, we can't know.
M Yeah, I believe you're right. Let me just see. Okay,
So if someone wants to ask questions, bow, you just put something
in caps, but if someone wants to ask a question, please do it
in all caps. Otherwise just just you know, type along. There.
There's a lot of interaction in the and some of what you're saying is not
real popular. I'll be I'll be honest with you. No, The thing
is, I'm well aware that what I'm saying as a minority view, and
I'm also well aware that I may or may not be right. But these
are the conclusions that I've come to. And you know, if other people
want to pursue other avenues of inquiry, that's great. The last thing we
needed the monoculture of ideas. And what do you think you know, Jay
posts up here? UM ask ask you if if you believe that's possible that
we're being visited and UM, you know, from what I'm gathering, your
story is you know, maybe that's part of you know, correct me if
I'm wrong, but maybe that's part of you know, the whole puzzle.
But but you think there's a lot of other things going on. UM,
I'm quite sure there are a lot of other things going on. Are we
being visited by um other physical intelligent beings from different from from some distant planet?
UM? I have no idea. There are some very good arguments against
it, but you know, one can't prove a negative UM. I would
want to see some solid evidence for it. There are many different kinds of
one of one of the things that I picked up through my studies in They
Could is an awareness that there are many different kinds of intelligent being, not
all of whom have physical bodies. And so you know this we get into
you know, quote woo woo territory here, but it's territory again. There's
Joqually discussed in quiet some detail in Passport Numagonia and that, and of course
John Keele was all over that, and I think he John Keele was really
probably of all the U the old UFO writers, who's the one that probably
influenced me most strongly because his ussion of the super spectrum of the idea of
different modes of reality inter penetrating with ours. To my mind, that explains
much more about the really high strangeness aspects of the UFO phenomenon than anything that
we're seeing from UM or any explanation that involves you know, nuts and bolt
spaceships being flown by by biological aliens. Yeah, we have a question up
here from Mary Grace again, are you saying that people are hallucinating or that
they are manifested it in their minds or have manifested it in their minds?
Um? Hallucination is one of those very awkward words that a lot of people,
a lot of materialists used to explain things or to explain away things that
they don't want to deal with. UM. I would say that people are
perceiving things, but they're not necessarily perceiving things through their physical senses. And
you know that things are manifested in our minds. That's that's imperfectly that's a
good way to say it, really, but you know, we have we
have various ways of perceiving things, and the handful that are talked about in
modern industrial society or not necessarily the most important Now what about um? About
some of your theories here, but when there's a mass sighting, you know,
uh, and one of them, I'm just someone put this up?
Oh hair, Andy who call and can't? Unfortunately no calls today, but
oh hair, I don't know if you ever checked into Gate C seventeen back
in two thousand and six when there was a disc over a hair and they
had there was certainly something that a lot of people saw. Yes, Yes,
My basic assumption and this is this is a starting point. This is
not a conclusion, it's a starting assumption. Is that when you see a
when you have a mass sighting, when you have dozens or hundreds of people
spotting the same thing and they describe it the same way, you're dealing with
something that's physically there. When you're dealing with something where one person perceives it
another don't where you know, somebody perceives it alone, or where there's a
lot of really high strangeness going on that looks like visionary experience, and it's
probably something on the visionary end rather than something on the physical end. So
whatever was above O'Hair there apparently was indeed something physical up there. What was
it? Good question? Yeah, yeah, that's that is a real good
case. And it was kind of you know, uh um, it was
I don't want to say covered up, but you just will not being able
to No one could be interviewed for that or very few people could. I
really think that something got spotted that was not supposed to be spotted. Yeah,
and so there was going to be the oop covered this, you know,
no interviews, no information. You know, we had no comment.
Yeah, Mark has a statement and a question. I agree with him about
Valley and Keel's ultra terrestrial explanations are more accurate than most UFO community and want
to see and really examine. I think it's often along those lines. So
that was just a statement. All the way through. I thought there was
Oh, here is the question right here. Um what about radar hits of
unknown objects through the years, the testimony of commercial pilots, etc. Okay,
Um, the test and first of all, you have to asked,
where are you getting the information from the radar hips. If it's coming for
the military, don't trust it. If it's coming from civilian airline pilots,
pay attention to the regulations that govern civilian airline pilots. They're actually subject in
military discipline, or they were up until the nineteen eighties. They were subject
to the regulations that I mentioned that made speaking out about UFOs a federal offense.
They could get you ten years in the slammer. And yet cases like
the nash Ford and Durry sighting. You know two commercial airline pilots who were
governed by that regulation, and they talked to the news, and they talked
to the media all over the place. Many of these I am convinced that
many of these things were faked, that many of the things they were they
you know, it was their patriotic duty to help spread disinformation. So somebody
from Air Force Intelligence came to them and said, we want you to do
something for us, you know, for your country that do not You know,
we are not going to answer too many questions, but this is what
you're going to say. You saw in the especially in the nineteen fifties in
the middle of the Red Scare and so on. We know, we know
for a fact that people did that in other context. So there were of
false stories being spread things like that to confuse the Russians and so on,
and I think that's a lot of what was going on. There always always
what's your source. Look for the source. That's where you see the medician
dipping his hand into his pocket. And if it again, if it comes
from the government, if it comes from the military, if it comes from
anybody who's subjects to military discipline, as commercial airline pilots, um think twice.
Be aware that you mean being you may be being fit what they want
you to think and not what actually happened. All right, well, let's
go into the Randelsham Forest for a case. That's great, Yeah, happened
back in nineteen eighty. Now, I know Charles hallt I know a few
other people that were first hand witnesses to that. And you know military again
you're talking military. But here's here's the catch and your your faery and this
in particular is that they didn't want that leaked, you know, I mean
Charles Hall told me, you know, the best thing they could have ever
happened in his life is that you know, that story was never leaked.
And you know his tape, his tape didn't get out of there's you know,
audio tape that he recorded during the incident. No, that was that
was not supposed to come out because um, let's let's take a step back
from that. What happened in rentals from forest? We have um two u
RF bases at least to the USR force. Okay, we have that night
and I I defined radar blip coming in fast. We have all kinds of
evidence that something crash, something made an emergency landing, something that was described
as a drumbe please, a black triangle. What was going on in nineteen
eighty, again early stealth. So there what in England tested in England.
H know, at that point we're past the we're past immediate test, but
there's there's there's an interesting timing. I think it was set by seventy eight
was when the stealth technology was really solidly in place, and yet it wasn't
until eighty two that the F one seventeen, the first a stealth fighter,
finally flew. This is skunk work. These are people who got the U
two in the air in eighteen months, So what were they making between the
two? The usual guests among people who researched this is that it was the
t R three Black Manta. It's another stealth plane. It's a reconnaissance plane,
long range recon and this was an early mission they had. They had
some kind of mechanical that's some kind of problems over in the North Sea.
They were perhaps going to be snooping on the Russians. It's a popular,
popular thing to do in in nineteen eighty, so they have to make an
emergency landing. They make it the emergency landing in England because that's close and
at that point, this entire stealth thing was was really the deepest secret we
had, and it could have been exposed by a single photograph because all of
the disinformation that we people were talking about stealth in those days, but all
the disinformation was about like secret paints and secret substances made for the you know,
of the wings and the fuselage and so on, and that wasn't what
was doing it, as we know. It was the specially angled surfaces that
reflected right or ways the way. One photograph would have blown that secret sky
high. And so yeah, a black triangle crash landed and the US military
was and the British military were desperately trying to keep that information from getting out.
Once it leaked out, of course they had to cover it up in
flying saucer colors as quickly as possible. I don't know, I'm not I'm
I don't. I don't think I buy this this this part of it,
you know, and you know, just just talking to Charles Halt from one
of them, the commander, uh, he wasn't the commander of the base
at the time, but but anyway, assistant commander I don't remember his title
in my book. Yeah, yeah, but here's the thing, so he
he has you know, I've I've been face to face with him talking.
I feel like I have a pretty good observation if someone's telling phony bologne or
not. You know, of course, you know, anyone can be fooled.
But he tells a story of this thing looking like an eyeball and going
through the woods and kind of like, you know, bouncing between the trees,
and then all of a sudden it bursts into several lights, and uh,
you know, he said, it doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense
at all. And you know, I have a friend in the antiques world
who actually saw a UFO in college that was box shaped, came down through
the mall at Amherst College. He was in the tower and the thing looked
like a box and then it shot up overhead toward the mountains and then it
burst into lights. So there's two stories into five lights, two stories right
there that are very you know, similar in that type of way. But
I don't know, uh, you know, the the audio of that,
it sounds pretty fascinating. It sounds like something was really going on. Did
you listen to the audio as well? I have not listened to the audio.
Yeah, it's really worth really worth checking out. It doesn't. I
don't. I don't see how that could have been faked or why it would
have been Well, again, if you want people to believe that that it's
that it's aliens and stealth technology, if and you have the resources of the
US government, you can do a lot of fakery, all right. Well,
so he wrote this memo about the whole situation, and it was secret
memo that he sent to headquarters. Um, you know that later was revealed.
It had no intention of being revealed at the time. Um, you
know. Uh. And and there's a number of cases where you know,
something eventually becomes to classified. It just seems like if this was a disinformation
effort, then immediately that document would get out there live and not you know,
years later when it's declassified. M Well, it depends. It depends
very much. I Mean, the thing is, we're sitting here outside,
you know, we're sitting here on the outside of trying to look in and
exactly what's going on, exactly who's who's talking about what or what's being manufactured
at what time, what purposes is being manufactured for. We can't know that.
What I'm saying though, is that a great many cases that have been
labeled the UFOs show show. Basically, they make very immediate sense if we
look at them and say, okay, what's the Air Force season is to
distract attention for something from something? And I argue the answer is yes,
in a very large number of cases, that's what's going on. That not
all the cases. Again, there is no one explanation for all UFO phenomena.
But if we can, if we can catch to get a sense of
how Air Force intelligences is manipulating their end of it and screen that interference out,
we have a much better chance of getting toward what was actually going on
as a working rule, as I'm noted, if it comes from a president
or former military officer or somebody in this in you know, somebody with connections
to Spookwood, I discounted precisely because they're you know, you can't know whether
they're telling the truth or not. And that may be a mistake on my
part, but I don't. I don't see any way around that. Because
the um there, especially as intelligence, they have floated so much nonsense.
I talked about the Menowith case earlier. You know, they've done that kind
of thing over and over again, and they're still doing it. And so
you know, you fully want what's the phrasing, foolly wants shame on you,
fool me twice, shame on me. So anything that comes from a
military source of government surf like that, you've got to look at it skeptically.
You've got to say, Okay, what are they hiding something as what
might they be hiding with this? What strategies might this be involved? And
this is actually another exact Well makes in his book Messagers of Deception that,
um, you know, just as just as Hitler's generals had ninety percent of
the information they needed to realize the Allies were invade Normandy, but they had
the wrong ninety percent. And Valet goes on and points out, it's exactly
the same thing. We have ninety percent of the information about the UFOs,
but that would help us figure out what's actually going on, but it's the
wrong ninety percent. And we also have a lot of disinformation, as he
pointed out, a lot of stuff that is um that is very dubious,
that is manufactured, that is meant to push the narrative this way or that
way. I mentioned the MG twelve business and that the reality of that has
to be taken into account. Otherwise we're just wandering in the midst. So
getting back to just the rendlesham um really quickly, Um, a question comes
up, the US was not big enough for a pilot. It was very
small, according to you know Jim Peniston, and um, uh it was
very small for a pilot. I believe it was like six by nine or
something like that and not too tall and it took off again. You know
this? This are you saying that all these military people are in on the
you know this big that it was very small fascinates me because the material that
I read, and I read quite a few books on the subject, including
the number by by you know, I read Jenny Randall's book for example.
Um, the claim was that the claim they reported that it was something rather
a large a large triangular aircraft flash spacecraft. Well, you know what.
Okay, then there's the three mendentations talking multiple stories here, and that that
adds to the fun of course, when they're they're conflicting stories and circulations go
on. Uh No, I would be interested to know that other story.
I'm not familiar with that in particular, but you know, they want to
pick up you want to pick up Jenny Randall's book. Um, I think
it's I remember the title of it, but she's you know, she's a
well known British m UFO researcher, and she did she did good work on
this one. And I believe, if I'm remembering it correctly, it was
quite a large thing and a whole bunch of people were taken were taken to
see it in a way that later that some of them later said, this
seems all staged. So well, yeah, I haven't heard that angle at
all, but I will check it out and chet book. I think I
think you'll find it entertaining or interesting. And at the time, you know,
Charles Halt made these impressions, I mean he filled the impressions of the
triangle, you know where the landing gear came down with plaster. I actually
saw he had a piece with him, you know, to show, and
it did support the theory that the thing was very small and it did come
supposedly come down between the trees and branches broken things like that, and they
took pictures of the branches, broken branches in the upper part of the tree
and they it just it seems like an awful lot of work to to make
a hoax. No. Again, the my argument for RENTALSSOM is that it's
not a hoax, that it was an actual stealth craft and that's why they
tried to blank it as incompletely. I wonder you know that's that's interesting if
there may have been because there were proposals in the in the sixties and sivities
to do what we now call drones, pilotless planes that were controlled by another
plane. Can you can you name some books that cover the smone that discussed
the small thing that was found. No, Okay, I'll dig into it,
um, because that sounds interesting, and I think it's just comparing that
to what we know of aerospace technology at that time might reveal a great deal.
Okay, all right, um, I guess I guess I'll move on
also to another another question, just to ask you if you've ever looked into
UM incidents like the aerial school incident in Westall are you familiar with either one
of those that those those aren't ringing bills right now? Okay, all right?
This was a school children in a remote area and South Africa that that
you know, sixty two of them actually UM talked about it were interviewed by
a child psychicologist, John mac who came in. A BBC reporter came in
first ahead of at and uh, it's a very very fascinating case. We're
a place where no one was actually the witness that I actually spoke with said,
you know, she never even heard of the topic UFO. She had
no idea what it was at the time, just that it was very strange
and there was actually beings u and volved in that too and not. And
this is by sixty two plus kids plus one teacher, as well as some
unreported kindergarten kids that saw it as well. But we're not able to be
interviewed at the time. Mum. So there's that. And the thing I
want to cycle back to is that unquestionably weird things are being seen. Weird
things are being seen in the skies. The question is what you know?
Are they all the same thing? I'm arguing that they're not. Are some
of them being created for various purposes of deception or um basically, are are
being interpreted in various ways manipulated by the US Air Force. I would argue
that's the case. Does that explain every setting? Of course not. And
I'm specifically said it's not every setting. But you know, one of the
one of the challenges here, of course is that to really under to really
study every single site in the detail it will be necessary. That's something that
would take you know, no want, no researcher, you can do that,
no individual researcher. We could have if there was actually an independent agency
for UFO research with you know, a billion dollars your budget and hundreds of
field investigators. Even then it would be very very hard to keep track of
everything and do all the adequate research. So all of us are basically trying
to work with a very limited data set and with ar Google's impressions, and
we do our best. Yes, yes, I agree in that. All
right, Well do you think so if the Pentagon actually admits that it has
been looking into you know, UAPs as they call them or whatever they are,
you know, maybe they're because it's possible that it's a foreign threat or
something else unexplained. And I don't know if you have fallen any of that,
but yeah, so I did want to get into also the Nimitz case.
Again it's military. Um you may have you know, thoughts about that
separately. Um I talked to Kevin Day actually before he even came forward,
and actually he's, uh, you know, he's he's come out on you
know, several shows and you know TV and TV shows, unexplained, unidentified
and all that. So what do you think of these tic TACs that defied
all the tik tak shaped you know, UFOs defied all physics that we know
about as far as you know, the starting stops and all the radar data
they had on it, and the eyewitnesses as well. Where did all this
come into play? Good question? Um. The first point is again,
um, no reminding of the date when that happened un two thousand and four,
two thousand and four, So right about the beginning of the latest run,
when the Navy started going, oh working, and my assumption when all
of us started coming out with oh, the Navy's testing something new, and
I could be wrong, but watching the Pentagon go through exactly the same maneuvers
they went through in the creation of Project Blue Book and making the same well
there might be something up there. This kind of thing, it's so reminiscent
of what was going on in the midnight mid late nineteen fifties. And my
assumption, again I could be wrong. My assumption is that, in particular,
now that our aircraft carrier fleet is rapidly approaching obsolescence due to our ship
killing missile hypersonic ship killing missiles, that's the Navy's testing something, and that
they're doing a whole series of secret tests. They are trying to keep it
out of the eyes of everyone, and so they are manufacturing and circulating stories
of you this UFO, that UFO, the other UFO as protective camouflage,
just the same way that the Air Force did. Now again, I could
be wrong, that's my take on it. And watching the Pentagon pile into
the whole up thing, um again, I think it's a smokescreen. I
think it's I think we're looking at another equivalent of those inflatable tanks and non
existent armies that we use to fake out the Nazis in in nineteen forty four.
And will I, you know, will I be able to say that
for sure, not until whatever the Navy. You know, my working guess
is in about ten years, maybe five, but probably closer to ten given
the way it goes, we'll find out that the Navy does have this remarkable
new technology that they haven't been talking about and it will resemble what's being seen
in roughly the same way that the stealth plans resembled those slow moving black triangles.
You know, we'll see I quite understand there are a lot of people
who think otherwise, who think that it's something the violent. You know,
there's some something violating the laws of physics, some some you know, alien
technology or something, and we'll just have to see who's right now. The
government recently over this last few months has come out and said that they agree
that the three videos that have been released were you know, unidentified objects and
um and you know they they ups. I'm sorry I put up the wrong
here's the one. But there was the shapes were there was the gimbal known
as the gimbal. Were this uh, this disc with a little point on
the top of it appears to have a point. It kind of goes along
level and then all of a sudden it goes up on its side and it's
moving along at a hundreds of other knots and uh, you know, being
filmed with the gun camera and all that. Um, and then the go
fast which was a lock on and uh. Then of course the tik tak
that came off of that whole event off the coast of California. Um,
and what do you what do you say to all those different objects and all
that you think they're all a military I mean, you think this is the
total answer for this? No, I think I think that I think that
what we that, Um, all those films were clever fakes that although I
mean, this is the US government. Can they pay for the production of
a film and then leak it and say, wow, this must be unidentified
if they're trying to cover up something that doesn't look like any of those of
course they can. So again, there's anything that comes from the government,
you have to approach with skepticism because again, they're not telling you what they
know. They're telling you what they want you to believe. M Well,
um, that's my take again. I'm I'm not saying that I'm that I'm
niscient here or that I'm absolutely true and you know you better, you better
believe it. This is my take, and it's it's worked out that way
often enough. It's worked out often enough that the Um, the remarkable thing
in this that so and so is pointed too, turns out, ten or
fifteen years down the road to have been another secret test, you were the
Mantel case that used to be quite famous. On nineteen forty eight International Garden
pilot went to chasing a cone shaped UFO and he ran too high, lost
conscious to lack of a crowd and yeah, and it turned out that what
he was chasing was a skyhook balloon, one of the again, one of
those balloon tests, but for like what was it six years after after the
date of that of that crash, the Air Force insisted at the top of
their lungs that know he'd been chasing the planet Venus. They know perfectly well
that he hadn't been chasing the planet Venus. They knew that he was chasing
a secret balloon test, but they live through their teeth because those were the
tests were secret. That was actually the incident that really gave me a clue
to the whole thing. Watching well, that and then all of the revelations
about how many Project blue Book sightings had actually been u to NSS seventy one
settings. When that when the information about about the SR seventy one and YouTube
program programs were declassified by the CIA, it turned out that approximately half of
the quote unknowns the Blue Book had recorded not only were they SR seventy one
or you two flights, but the Blue Book officers knew that. They got
on the phone to lengthy talked to the CIA, thing, how were you
sting? Were you flying something? Yeah? Okay, Mark, that was
as an unknown. So that's that's the kind of thing we're up against here,
a situation where we can't where the US government is systematically lucking about what
people are seeing in order to cover up in order to provide count protective camouflage
for secret programs. It's you know, it's documented that they've done that.
It's it's documented over and over again that they did exactly that. And so
we need to book at anytime something comes out of the government saying and look
at the possibility or I would say, the probability that it's yet more of
the same thing. Are you Are you familiar with the Belgium wave? Um,
David, I think it was the nineteen nineties. Um that that was.
I forget how many. I think it was something like a thousand sightings.
I may be way off on that, And I just wondered if you
were familiar with that in particular nineteen nineties, And Um, I recall reading
something about it, but I'm not recalling the details what we're people seeing.
They were seeing a triangle um lots of them, and police officers round triangle
or a flying up high triangle. They actually saw one over a field that
was that was the police officer in particular was out with his wife. And
that was actually in nineteen eighty nine to nineteen nineties when when that happened.
And so there was just lots and lots and lots of people saying this and
one picture that is suspect. You know, only one picture was taken and
that was in junior nineteen ninety. Yeah, where were all the cameras.
I mean nineteen ninety cell phone cameras weren't really a thing. Yes, as
I recall that at all people had cameras, and you'd think, especially if
these things are being a popping of all of the place, you know,
some lady would stick an incinematic into a purse just to make sure to have
it. But one of the one of the really odd things is that,
especially nowadays, with the fantastic number of people who were going around with cell
phones with these and cameras. Yeah, I gotta tell you when I will
tell you this, and I don't know if you have ever had a sighting.
Of course, that's usually a question I asked. But when I fair
question, and I have to say the answers, No, I have not.
Okay, when I had my UFO sighting, I was so enthralled with
what the heck am I looking at? If I had a camera beside me,
I don't know if I would have thought to pick it up. But
I understand what you're saying. If people there's a flap, everyone's talking about
seeing something, you know, you're you're almost out there looking for something.
I can understand. You know your point where someone seemed to have a camera.
Yeah, exactly, you think somebody, I mean a situation like yours.
You're alone, you're chilling out in a hot tub, and then there's
this this impossible thing hovering over you. Yeah, you're just gonna be staring
at the thing, going what's the bleep? Yeah? But I think I
said that too, Yeah. Yeah. No. The thing is, I'm
I have friends who head sightings. I'm a good friend of mine had had
a head a classic black triangle sighting. Um, and I believe he saw
something. I do not think he was. You know, I believe that
he saw it and he described it as best he could. And that's that's
the thing, you know, the thing that the skeptics always missed, that
the people are actually seeing strange things in the sky, and we need to
start by accepting that. And then we go on to say, okay,
now are they all the same thing? Clearly not what categories they fall into?
Could they be from many different sources? What influence does popular culture have
on our interpretation of these strange things that we're seeing. What about the interface
between you the young talked about between the inner and the outer worlds, where
you know, things are seen in the sky because they fill a psychological need,
but they're actually being seen, you know, we're not. Again Patrick
Harper's discussion in Demonic Reality is great. There we're dealing with a very very
strange phenomenon, or a very very strange set of phenomena. As I've already
indicated, I tend to think that John Keel's notion of the super spectrum of
ultraterrestrials with an extraterrestrials had a lot going for it actually explains much more than
many of the other explanations. But there again, there are these other things
going on that clearly relate to something like say, military intelligence. So it's
you know, it's crucial not to not to oversimplify it, not to try
to go for the simple answer. And I'm not trying to go for a
single answer for something that obviously has many mediagual causes. Right. Uh.
Are you familiar with the JA L the Japanese Airlines flight sixteen twenty eight pack
in nineteen eighty six. I've read about it. It was a long time
ago. Yeah, Well that's a fascinating case to me. You know,
this walnut shaped you know, three hundred some odd foot or somewhere around there
between one hundred plus feet long, you know, following scene on radar h
This is a pilot that is flying cargo, you know basically, and you
know he reports that trying to figure out what's happening. There's all kinds of
I think there's two different radar hits on this thing, and you know,
he ends up getting a desk job, you know, after this thing happened,
because he actually you know, uh reported it. And what do you
think of that? In general? John Callahan actually is a person that speaks
about that now and what he saw. I mean again, not not having
not having the actual account to the actual information so on available to me right
now. I don't know. Um, it's an it's an interesting question.
I note that a remarkable number of these sightings happened to cargo plan to people,
to pilots of cargo planes, not passenger planes. Yeah, there are
some passengers. A matter of fact that I had a personal friend on my
show that I knew a commercial pilot that had a very similar sighting. Said
the shape like a WALTT as well. Interesting and was that a passion passenger
flight? That was a passenger flight? Yes, okay, yeah, yeah,
I did say that all of them were commercial flights. They're just noticed
that a lot of the famous ones are are cargo flights. Nash Fort and
varies a great example. Ah yeah, how about that. Never never never
thought of that, But yeah they are. They are some fascinating cases.
And it's just like you said, you know, we are, they are.
There are some weird stuff up there. There's some weird stuff that people
are saying. There's things that one over the English channel that look like big
yellow crafts. So that's another great one. Unusual. Yeah. Um.
I also like to point out. If you go back to Charles Fort,
go back to some of the really early investigators. You can go back to
in some cases medieval and Renaissance sources. You can find descriptions of things very
like what people are reporting now. Um, you know, in things from
the fourteenth century, in things from ancient Rome, there are it's it's really
quite remarkable some of the weird things and the skies have been there all along.
That's clear. Um. The question is what does that mean? What
does that tell us? I don't know, but it's it's Gristopher. The
mill is something that has to be taken into account when you know, you
occasionally get you a full researchers from the straterrestrial side, who are who are
insisting that no, no, it's a recent high. It's a recent event.
They must have just arrived and the evidence simply doesn't support that they've been
around. Whatever it is, it's been happening for a long time. Right,
Yeah, I'm just just so I know, we have all I don't
know, maybe four minutes something like that left and um, your your books,
um, if you want to talk a little bit about where people can
find them actually and and a little bit you know, just kind of what
what is in you know, the your latest book, basically, what does
it cover exactly? Sure? Um, As far as my books, generally,
you can get them from any full service bookstore or your favorite online bookstore.
I'm all over the place. I've got an is on page if you
want to look me up. John Michael Greer Um. This current one UM
the UFO Chronicles. It's an attempt to sort out the UFO phenomenon, starting
with the recognition that it has that it doesn't make any sense if we assume
that if it wasn't a spacecraft, it couldn't have existed at all. With
the sort of skeptic and the skeptical notion um, it discusses the history of
the phenomenon, gives an over you the whole thing, talks about the bad
logic that a lot of skeptics use to try to pretend that people are not
seeing what they're actually seeing, and then also talks about some of the mistakes
that've been made from by UFO investigators in interpreting what their things, and then
goes on to suggest and some explanations for at least some of the phenomena the
UFO Chronicles from books it should be readily available, um, you know,
as your favorite bookstore, and if not, you can you can get an
order it. I you just mentioned about, you know, some of the
mistakes ufologists have made, and I know there's a you know, I've said
this on this show a few times. It's unfortunate that sometimes and a few
I can't I'm not going to say any examples or or I can't none can
come directly to mind right now. But when they find out they're wrong about
a case, um, they don't divorce themselves from it. They just keep
going. Uh, they keep going with what they have and uh, you
know, even even to conferences and talk about it. Yeah, so that
that does happen. I mean, there's the human element in it. It's
very human. If you committed yourself to a particular point of view and then
it turns out you're completely wrong about that, that thing, it's really embarrassing
to say out, yeah I was wrong. Um. The one thing I'll
say is that, generally speaking, the upologists have done a better job being
reasonable, paying attention to the evidence and so on than the skeptics. M
One of the chapters in my book takes the basic skeptic arguments apart, and
so that they're based on logical fallacies that are so old they have names in
Latin. So these people who are crowing about science and reason apparently have not
made the acquaintance of science and reason to the extent that anything like the extents
they claim. That's one of the points that I make. The skeptics have
done very badly. Now I think many of them have had reason to do
so because a lot of them again have connections with the spook, with the
spook world, or were there for right, right, Well, okay,
that's it for the show with you tonight. Thank you so much. It's
been a pleasure, very interesting. All right, all right, you take
care and you too now, all right, all right, everyone, So
that is it for our show tonight. I just wanted to go into what
I mentioned earlier, and that is please do either do one or two things
if you want to find out if if you're very interested in watching the show
live of course next week, you want to go into the YouTube and subscribe
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And so that next week it should be the body Language Panel talking about UFOs
and UFO reports and what they thought, and it's pretty amazing. I think
it'll be very enjoyable. And I think that is all I have for today.
Again, check out the blog. You'll get an audio blog if you're
in the podcast, and we'll be back next week one way or the other.
It might be the usual time with someone from the Hopkinsville Kelly incident.
Anyway, Thanks so much, and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.