WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:12.800 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking a 2 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:18.760 little bit more about Echo with star of the MCU podcast, the Grand Pandaimo 3 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:23.480 of the Stranded Panda podcast network and really the inspiration for me getting into podcasting. 4 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:26.039 So I'm so glad you're here with us, Matthew, Carrol dude, 5 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:28.359 how are we doing today, Matthew. Very kind intro. It's good to 6 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:30.920 talk to you. Matthew. It's been a bit a while since we've gotten 7 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.000 a cast together, so I'm definitely excited to chat about this show with you. 8 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:37.079 Yeah, very much so, very much so. And to give you 9 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:40.560 a little bit of background, I see. I imagine it's probably a very 10 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:42.880 small percentage of you who don't know, but Matthew, talk to you, 11 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.119 talk to us a little bit about the podcast you do, but more importantly 12 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:48.799 also kind of your background with Marvel. Because one of the reasons I wanted 13 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.439 you on right now for this is I've been talking a lot about the representation 14 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:55.799 in this show and it'd probably come up, but you are I think kind 15 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.920 of one of the leading voices out there, at least in my world about 16 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:03.200 Marvel and the MCU. So what's kind of your background with Marvel and both 17 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.120 comics and on screen. Well, I love a connected universe, always have, 18 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.439 so, you know, going way back to pretty much everything I grew 19 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.200 up on, I loved a good connected universe. And then when Marvel started 20 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:19.840 doing that on such a big scale, with big budgets and a lot of 21 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:26.319 forethought and interesting actors and directors, I just fell in real hard. And 22 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.079 then around Guardians of the Galaxy we started. So twenty fourteen we started the 23 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.799 MCU cast, that Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast if you don't know, And we're 24 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:37.719 over there and we've been doing it for almost we're on our tenth year and 25 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.719 we're nearing our thousandth episode. Awesome, and so we're hoping, we're hoping 26 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.760 we can align those two things. So it's like the ten year anniversary is 27 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.359 right around the thousandth episode, we do a big bonanza, but it's coming 28 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.159 up, so we gotta get on, we gotta get on planning that. 29 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.000 But yeah, so you've been just talking about this stuff multiple days a week 30 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.200 for ten years, and I love it. I love how deep the universe 31 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.719 goes now, with so many things and so many different corners of it that 32 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.919 have varying level of canonicity, and so we can kind of just I like 33 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:14.879 being able to like I love being able to watch uh Echo and be like, 34 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:16.879 but what if Punisher showed up and did this, you know, like 35 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:20.840 just like it's just weird, Like, well, is that canon? Maybe? 36 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.599 Maybe not? Like, let's let's get into it. I love I 37 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:25.919 love how expansive the world is, and it's just fun to play in that 38 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:32.319 sandbox and speculate and discuss so so so I and I and even with this 39 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:36.919 Phase four and FA five haven't been as well received. But I'm in a 40 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.080 I'm in a mindset of they're in a rebuilding time, clearly after endgame, 41 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:46.639 and it's just sort of like it's the it's the growing pains of rebuilding, 42 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.599 uh to the to the next big thing, which is probably five years away 43 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.400 at this point. So uh, I think I think they're in a good 44 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.240 place. And just to say to say where I am at this exact moment. 45 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.840 Though, have you seen have you seen Loki? I have not? 46 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.319 Oh man, have you seen what If? No? I have not. 47 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:12.159 Okay, those two shows combined have me in an incredibly excited place. I 48 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:19.560 loved them both and they both had U endings that led to cool speculation. 49 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.960 It they just ended well, it ended really really well. And then they 50 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.360 put up the trailer for Echo. Did you see the final trailer for Echo? 51 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:30.960 You don't watch trailers, right, So I did not watch trailers, 52 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:32.479 which we'll talk about in a bit, because I feel like I got the 53 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.719 best reward in the world for having no idea what was coming in this in 54 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:38.240 this show. Oh yeah, yeah, Well, they they had a trailer 55 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:43.199 that dropped for Echo, and after I'm coming off the high of what If, 56 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.039 and they had the final trailer drop for Echo, and it was just 57 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:53.080 they just took clips from all of the Daredevil stuff and showed the story of 58 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:58.520 Matt Murdoch and Kingpin and how it intersected with Echo and then the So the 59 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:03.319 entire trailer was is like basically saying this is canon with the Netflix stuff, 60 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.919 like you are going to it is gonna be canon, And like that got 61 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:12.639 me really really pumped. So those three events in succession has me on a 62 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.759 really high. Uh that's amazing level for Marvel right now. Well, and 63 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.920 I have to say I'm feeling in a very similar place, coming from a 64 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:23.240 very different direction, and we're gonna get into some details, but I think 65 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.480 this is kind of a fun place to start, especially with the canonicity of 66 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:27.680 it all, because I want to hear your thoughts on that. I, 67 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.480 like I said, I was, I was so excited for this show. 68 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.319 I think a lot those who are regular listeners to Mike podcasts probably know this, 69 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:35.639 but we may get some new people for this. I think this episode 70 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.560 is also going to get rebroadcast in the MCU cast, So for those who 71 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:43.839 don't know, I am myself an amputee in the exact same way I'm missing 72 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:48.160 a leg below the knee that both the character of my Lopez and the actors 73 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:53.000 who plays her A Loqua Cox is And so I was incredibly excited that this 74 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:56.920 show also trepidacious, and so I didn't want to know anything about it. 75 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.720 And I think people I want to see trailers. That's awesome, and I'm 76 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:04.000 so glad you get that. But I got to have a moment early on 77 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:10.120 of seeing in the background a new person enter the fight in kind of a 78 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:14.399 reddish suit that looked like it might have horns, and saying to my partner, 79 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.959 is that daredevil dls in this? And I had no idea, Yeah, 80 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.920 that's wonderful. That is wonderful. Yeah, that's something that they did 81 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:27.240 announce when they first announced Echo as a show that she was going to, 82 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.839 that he would appear, and so so I knew that was coming. I 83 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.560 didn't know it would be such a small part. I wasn't upset by it. 84 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:38.759 I think his role was kind of perfect. It gave it. They 85 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.800 have done the opposite so much with the MCU shows as of late, where 86 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.519 they saved the big connection for the end, and I think it tends to 87 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.560 overshadow the storyline that's happening, and this one did it the opposite where they 88 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:55.360 sort of sprinkle in a little MCU connection at the top and then they saved 89 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.480 the They left the finale of this show to be the finale of the show, 90 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.759 and I think that was way better than things like Hawkeye that like, 91 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:06.160 you know, speaking of Echo Hawkeye, you know, I think that show 92 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:12.879 bringing in King Pitt in the last episode was like really overshadowed some of what 93 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.360 was going on there. It's like the story didn't get its resolution like it 94 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.079 needed. I think that's so true. And I think one thing I talked 95 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.800 about a lot because one thing I think is worth noting and again, I 96 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:26.160 think there's no right or wrong in this, just different perspectives. I've definitely 97 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.000 been a little bit burnt out by the MCU, and I'm not one of 98 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.759 the haters, like you know, people if they love it, that's awesome. 99 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:35.079 I'm not saying it's all terrible. I just the couple of things that 100 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:39.680 I saw most recently above the MCU I didn't really love. I loved She 101 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:46.000 Hulk, but other stuff didn't grab me. Secret Invasion, the little I 102 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:49.399 saw. I didn't have any interest, Loki didn't have much interest, and 103 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:54.560 I was kind of just done with it for a while. And this show, 104 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.839 to me, really really brought me back, particularly because I felt like 105 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:00.519 this show touched on a lot of the things that I had loved about the 106 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.759 Netflix MCU. You know, it had a much darker tone. It was 107 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:10.079 much more street level, to the point where literally when I watched the first 108 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.199 couple of minutes, which are there, like we find out it's this gorgeous 109 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:18.759 thing of the Choctua sorry Chaqua creation myth, but it's very like mystical and 110 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.360 kind of Neon e lights almost that that's obvious supposed to be like mystical, 111 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.399 not actual Neon I had to stop and make sure I was watching the right 112 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:30.879 show, right because I started something else. But one of the things I 113 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.399 think that really kind of was like, Okay, I think they're doing this 114 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:38.879 better was the Daredevel appearance. Because one thing I remember that I had sometimes 115 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:44.839 been frustrated about was when you get to a point where in the story of 116 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.959 the larger universe it didn't make sense that other characters weren't showing up, you 117 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:53.879 know, and like The Defenders is one of my favorite examples. I don't 118 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.759 think Captain America or Iron Man cares if Wilson Fisk is taking over more of 119 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.360 the construction industry, you know, right, whatever, right, right, 120 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.639 right, But when the Hand is trying to raise a dragon and there's earthquakes 121 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.399 happening all throughout New York City, I kind of feel like Captain America or 122 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.639 Tony Stark or someone else might notice, you know. Yeah. And but 123 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:16.439 but of course having one of them show up at the end of The Defenders 124 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.920 would have, as you said, just kind of taken it over. Well. 125 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.639 I think there's a there's always if you it's a suspension of disbelief thing, 126 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.959 I think. And I think if the show is done well, you 127 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:31.959 don't care about that as much because you can always make up your own headcnon 128 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.679 for why someone's not there. Oh, they're on a different mission, they're 129 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.840 doing this, Tony's whatever, Tony's in space. Who knows? Like that? 130 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.279 There's always that's the thing. Marvel Comics has always done this. And 131 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.840 if the comic's good, no one's asking that question. If the show is 132 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.840 good, no one's asking that question. It's when you lose your suspension of 133 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:54.360 disbelief because the show is not grabbing you that you start going really, it's 134 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.240 a dragon, Come on, Where's where's start? But you could easily headcanon 135 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.879 like none of those five Defenders that were there, No, oh Tony Stark, 136 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.519 none of them know Captain America. No one has their number, you 137 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:07.039 know what I mean? So like, yes, sure they could call some 138 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.279 organization maybe, but maybe they whatever, Maybe they don't know who they can 139 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:13.879 trust. Blah blah. There's always head cannon. But like it, it 140 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.000 doesn't. It only works that only I feel like happens when the show isn't 141 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.279 grabbing you. And I think Defenders is one of those that didn't grab a 142 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.399 lot of people. Yeah, I think that's fair, and I think it 143 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:26.559 also maybe the difference in how we see these stories, because for me, 144 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:28.720 even if it's a very good story, I think in parts because I didn't 145 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.879 grow up reading comic books, so I don't have that kind of like I 146 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.519 haven't been taught how to watch these things, it would pull me out of 147 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.039 a story. But to me, my point is, so therefore, having 148 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.679 Daredevil's not gonna be a main character in the show, but she's fighting Kingpin 149 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.879 in New York City, and so it makes sense that Daredevil's going to be 150 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.440 there. Yeah, And so to me that was just the like that's the 151 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.399 perfect way, like in the same way that like I feel like if you 152 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.440 know, something pulled them into Harlem, you know, and Luke Cage showing 153 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.039 up like it would make a lot of sense. So yeah, it just 154 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.639 gave me a lot of hope about where the MCU is going and some of 155 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:05.679 these things. And I don't know how much you know about Spotlight and their 156 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.879 new direction with Spotlight. Do I'm sure you notice when it came on the 157 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:13.679 screen that it' said Marvel Spotlight. Have you have you researched that at all? 158 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:15.600 Do you know anything about it? Yeah? Since this I did a 159 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.200 lot of research and learned it. Yeah, it's it's kind of going to 160 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.639 be like not like the Netflix MCU, but kind of its own, Like 161 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.159 it's in the same continuity, but it's a little bit more street level. 162 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:28.399 It's a little bit more adult focused, and it's a little more like trying 163 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.960 to tell these stories in a connected way, well in an unconnected way. 164 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:35.159 It's kind of the goal, like, yeah, to do a allow a 165 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.159 place for individual stories that don't have to connect, that are smaller, and 166 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.879 I think it's right. It's it's so funny because for years we have been 167 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.639 begging for connection. We've been begging for those moments that you're talking about, 168 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:48.960 where like why don't they call Captain America, why don't they call it? 169 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.799 Well, But like I think if we all look back, like and I'm 170 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.000 changing my stance on this, I've been for years that guy who wants more 171 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.159 and more and more connection. But I think that the MIMCU when it was 172 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.600 at its height, when it's at it's like the thing that most people remember 173 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:11.320 as the best, which is like phase two and three, it is they 174 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.000 had great things happening in the movies that were very sparsely populated, and like 175 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.279 they were very connected, but they were like every year or two we were 176 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.559 getting like two movies a year or something like that, and then on TV 177 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.360 we were getting these very grounded stories that were not connected at all. The 178 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:33.440 Agency, Shield, the Defenders, all five of those shows on Netflix, 179 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:35.759 they had almost no connection. They were just in the same world. And 180 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.759 I think the Spotlight is sort of bringing that around and saying, Hey, 181 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:43.360 if you want to be a deep fan of Marvel and you want to watch 182 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:48.000 everything you can, the one thing I think I need they need, though, 183 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.399 The secret sauce of this formula working in an even better way than it 184 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.919 worked on Endgame is whenever we get the next version of the portal scene where 185 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.200 everything's opening and people are coming through, we need to see the characters from 186 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.159 Spotlight come onto the big screen at some point. They don't have to be 187 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.559 ultra connected. You don't have to explain who they are even, just give 188 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:11.799 us that little bit as fans. So we freak out and the rest of 189 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:13.720 the audience goes, oh, I don't know who they are. Oh, 190 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.679 well, you don't know who every person comes through the portals is. You 191 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.799 just need that little bit of that would if Dared Evil had walked through the 192 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.440 screen and the portal scene. It's the only thing that would have made that 193 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.960 scene better, you know what I mean, like it it would have been 194 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.799 increased how good I mean, And I think they even started to do that 195 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:33.639 to me and Spider Man where you know, oh right, right right, 196 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.279 yeah, where Spider Man needs to find a good lawyer who can help him 197 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:39.840 with stuff about Mega Superhero and who does he go too? Met Murdock? 198 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.879 Yeah, you've no idey who met Murdock is it's just a lawyer who happens 199 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.360 to have really good reflexes. Yeah, I'm totally with you there, And 200 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.279 so let me actually ask you this then, because I've been diving into this 201 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.720 a lot. Mostly though my discussions about Echo and the people I'm following and 202 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.080 talking to have been discussions of like the wrap presentation in it, and as 203 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.320 you expect with you know, most shows where it's a brown woman is the 204 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:07.559 star, there's a lot of people who are hating on it. There's a 205 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.879 lot of people who are loving it talking about how to represent it. We'll 206 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:13.480 get more to that in a bit, but I haven't really dealt with a 207 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.919 kind of like hardcore Marvel people talking about it much, and so I want 208 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:22.039 to ask you about the canonicity of it all, because clearly I think it 209 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.120 is, like you know, it is a Charlie Cox Daredevil, it's a 210 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.480 Vincent Ainofrio Kingpin. By the way, after watch, that was another reason 211 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.120 why it felt like it worked. I felt like I liked Kingpin and a 212 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.720 Hawkeye, but he didn't feel like the same character. This felt much more 213 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.639 like the same character. And there are there are probably others who are on 214 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.519 his level, but I think Vincent Andofrio is in terms of just the body 215 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:48.600 of work of the MCU, at the very highest level of acting performances we 216 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:52.320 have seen in the MCU. He was just incredible, incredible in this. 217 00:13:52.480 --> 00:14:00.240 Yeah, and such are morally complex character the thing though, but I did 218 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.600 notice that there were some things that didn't seem to fit with the exact canon 219 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.879 of the Defenders universe. And some of them like in the fact that like 220 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.279 all of this has already happened, but that now he's starting the process of 221 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.720 running from Mayor. They showed like what I think is supposed to be the 222 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.960 painting that reminds him of the wall in the home where he killed his father. 223 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.600 Uh, and that in the Netflix. It's just kind of a quick 224 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.240 flash, but they show him looking at that painting in the last episode, 225 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:33.080 and you know, in the mc in the Netflix MCU verse, he buys 226 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.240 it from Vanessa and that's how he meets Vanessa. And it's a horizontal painting 227 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.039 and in this it was a vertical painting. And there's like one or two 228 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:45.639 other things that that kind of got me thinking, and because I do think 229 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.279 they're gonna have a real problem of how do you tell a lot of those 230 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:50.519 stories when in some way you've already told all of those stories going back to 231 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.360 you know, all the stuff that happened in you know, how is he 232 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.320 running for mayor again? Uh, when he's kind of already done that in 233 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.559 the Netflix MCU, I don't know, talk to like Chris Christy well, 234 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.399 right, like that's the thing. Talk to Joe Biden, Like people run 235 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.639 for the same office all the time. And I think the way they should 236 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:11.559 handle it, this is what I said on the MCU guest last night. 237 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.159 If the next time we see Kingpin he's already mayor, that's how they should 238 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.000 handle it. Like next time we see Kingpin. They were talking on that 239 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.919 show about how like he's a he's an out We need an outsider, blah 240 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.399 blah. Someone could swing in right now and become Mayor. We need that 241 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:30.279 to happen. And then he's like hmm. And the next time we see 242 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.759 him, it's like Daredevil born again. It's two years later and he's just 243 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.639 Mayor Fisk and like Daredevill's having to deal with that, it's a different story 244 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:39.399 and it's just he ran again, you know, Like that's how I think 245 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:43.279 they could handle it. I think that's true. I'm going in a different 246 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.440 direction though, because to me, the fact that he was looking at it 247 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.480 as though like he'd never thought of this happening. As well. The vertical 248 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.679 painting, to me was the most obvious, but there were some other things 249 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:54.720 like that I didn't see the painting. When did they show the painting, 250 00:15:54.759 --> 00:16:00.120 Because when you're talking about in his dream, I think so in his I 251 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.039 dream that was the actual wall. It may have looked like the painting. 252 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.600 I think it may have looked, but it was the wall he was staring 253 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.120 at. So he's in his original bedroom in the dream and he's looking at 254 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.519 the wall. There's another scene where it looked like it was very it had 255 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.960 like a frame around it and stuff. But Okay, my point with all 256 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.919 this being it feels like trying to say this is the exact same canon cannon 257 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:26.320 of all this stuff we already saw feels like it's gonna be problematic just because 258 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.639 there's so many story beats that we've already seen. What I'm wondering is we 259 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:36.879 now are in a multiverse. Are they going to perhaps say that the Netflix 260 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.879 Defenders took place in a different part of the multiverse, and so what we're 261 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.919 seeing here in this version, in the six one six or whatever it is 262 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.360 that they're describing it as. For the MCU, it's the same Daredevil, 263 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.399 it's the same Kingpin, and it may well be the same Luke Cage and 264 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:59.639 all these other people. But by saying this is a different continuity, a 265 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.679 different cannon, that way, they're not tied to the exact details of the 266 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:08.160 Netflix, right, They're not tied to the exact casting it. Whether like 267 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.720 it felt to me like they were setting that up in this Whether or not 268 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.160 you think that though, do you think that that is a possible way they're 269 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.559 going with all this? I think that is absolutely a possible way they could 270 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.519 go. I think that this show makes that less likely, not more. 271 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.000 I think those smaller details that you're talking about, I mean, fist running 272 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.599 for mayor is not a small detail, but it's like an entire season of 273 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:36.359 the show. But I do think that like they could easily say he just 274 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.920 ran again and this time he won, like he they last time, they 275 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.680 weren't looking for an outsider the city was. Now he sees his opportunities like, 276 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.759 oh, I can do that thing I always wanted to do. Yeah, 277 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.680 but but the vertical versiars little thing. I'd have to see the screenshots. 278 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.559 I'm looking it up online. I'm not seeing that like as a have 279 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.079 you seen I guess, like, uh, yeah, it's entirely possible that 280 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:57.680 you're right. I misunderstood it, uh and saw that. So I don't 281 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.880 want that to be the thing that it hangs on for me. It's more 282 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:07.119 that like in this he felt to me like a businessman who is very well 283 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.319 respected in the community and pre corrupt already, but like, you know, 284 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.759 he has all this power and influence over the cops as we see, he 285 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.680 has all this power and influence with the casinos in ways that I feel like 286 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.279 if he's already been to jail and had everything revealed about him the way Karen 287 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:30.039 Paige and Mett Murdoch and Foggy did in the shows doesn't really work. I 288 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.559 don't think that's true, okay, And I just don't think like I think 289 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.519 just the way the entirety of season three was about that exact dichotomy, Like 290 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:44.079 Matt Murdoch, Karen Page, they're all yelling about how he's a corrupt criminal 291 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.119 and like trying to stop him, and half of the city is like, 292 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.200 oh, yeah, he's corrupt the way we like and you can absolutely see 293 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.799 you and you could see it mirroring our world today. Oh look, they're 294 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.799 trying to put him on trial. That just makes us like him more. 295 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.559 Like I just think it. I think they're setting up Yeah, that's fair. 296 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.079 I gott to withdraw that point. I think they're just setting up a 297 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.720 perfect parallel to what's happening in our world, and they're trying to tell a 298 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.519 story that is going to be like very on the nose about what if, 299 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:17.720 you know, like, what if a corrupt politician just keeps on being corrupt 300 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:21.559 and people won't believe it? And what does Daredevil do Because now he's the 301 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:23.960 mayor, he had his chance to kill him in that hotel room, and 302 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.440 he chose not to, and that was the victory of season three, him 303 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:33.079 overcoming his rage. And now he's gonna see the result of not doing the 304 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.640 Punisher thing. And now he's the Mayor. Now he's America's mayor. Now 305 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.720 he's running for president, like whatever they want to do with it. And 306 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.680 then he's like catapulted into so much power. And then you could you could 307 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.640 tie that into the Thunderbolts, which is something Marvel's coming out within a few 308 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.400 years. You could have it like he's the power center that's like sort of 309 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:55.160 corrupting an Avengers like team, you know, like it could it could be 310 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.559 huge, King Kingpinn could be an even bigger character. And I'd love it 311 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.920 if nothing else draws a personal a perfect connection between Daredevil and Echo because she 312 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.079 also had the chance to kill him. Yes, yes, yeah, so 313 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.559 totally yeah, yeah. I can see it working either way, So I'll 314 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.200 be very curious to see it. I will admit that, like the airplane 315 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.640 running from Mayor scene was great. I was really hoping to see Foggy or 316 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.599 Karen or even the Punisher kind of sitting down with Echo and being like, 317 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.640 so we have a friend in common or we have a problem in common, 318 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.960 right, yeah, yeah, we we had a lot of those discussions last 319 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.559 night, like who we would have one of the things we did. We 320 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.839 actually hadn't released our episodes yet. We're like, I'm gonna lisse them to 321 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.319 the patrons today and they'll be up later later this week because we we just 322 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:44.279 had to release them in a certain way. But we had a we had 323 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:45.839 a big like in our episode four, we bet on like, okay, 324 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:48.880 are we going to see someone else we haven't seen? Like is someone going 325 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.279 to show up? And like then we all took bets on like who's going 326 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.759 to show up if? And it turned out to be nobody, but it 327 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.559 is. I love that last scene. I think it's it's perfect because it 328 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.680 well, first of all, also this last scene, this this Kingpin being 329 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.039 like Mayor or possibly Mayor or running for Mayor, also has to be tied 330 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:17.200 into the fact that Maya did some fancy magic to heal his pain and who 331 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:21.359 does that make Kingpin? And then like if you've got a if you've got 332 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.240 a daredevil who's regretting not killing him when he had the chance, and an 333 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:29.480 echo who's and like then they're looking at him, and he's doing terrible things 334 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.319 as Mayor, but also like what he's what if he's not doing terrible things 335 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.039 as Mayor. What if he's kind of walking the line because he's had his 336 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:41.240 pain healed and now he's like you have to believe as the what if? 337 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.440 What if they convince us as the audience that Fisk isn't such a bad guy 338 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.359 anymore, and then we have to take the ride where we're kind of disagreeing 339 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.480 with Matt, Like, I love the fact that it could all it could 340 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.640 go anyway, and the morality of it could be really really blurry. I 341 00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.440 mean, that's why I've always said that Daredevil Season one was a big part 342 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.799 of starting the podcast that and Marvel Civil War, because for me, those 343 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.640 are both stories that are so morally gray. Like I've often said, I 344 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:10.880 think Daredevil Season one is kind of like fifty one percent a Daredevil origin story 345 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.400 and forty nine per like it could be so close to a Kingpin origin story. 346 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:15.319 I mean it is, but you know, in terms of him being 347 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:21.440 the more heroic and as you kind of alluded to, I think even Kingpin, 348 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.079 as he is like a lot of people in this country and this world, 349 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.839 would think like, yeah, that's what we need. You know, 350 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:30.359 he is the and here's my take on what Echo did. And we'll definitely 351 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:32.839 get to Echo herself in just a moment. But I want to talk more 352 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:37.240 about Kingpin because I think his his portrayal in this is so well done and 353 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.880 so good and so morally. I think it's so easy to be like, 354 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:45.440 oh, he's just manipulating Maya the whole time. I don't believe that for 355 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.440 a second. I think he is one hundred percent. He feels a family 356 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:53.640 connection to her, and he very much loves her and wants to keep her 357 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.000 safe. He just doesn't A. He doesn't even know how to do that 358 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.279 yet. Also like know, like to me, the scene with the ice 359 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:06.200 cream vendor is so perfect because yeah, I mean you're you're now a parent, 360 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:07.160 Matt, so you can speak to this more even more than I could. 361 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.440 But like when I have friends who I know have like reasons that they 362 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.160 would get teased or harassed, and I see that happen, there is a 363 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.079 part of me that wants to get violent and go hurt that person. And 364 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.160 A I'm disabled myself and have never learned how to fight, so I couldn't 365 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.880 do it. Anyway, but like, also, I think it's the wrong 366 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.119 thing to do. But like, to me, part of what made that 367 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:34.200 scene with the ice cream guy so perfect and like so uncomfortable is that I 368 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.519 was like, yeah, I get him, and then looking at how intense 369 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.319 it was getting, and then when you know, little Maya shows up, 370 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.279 I was like, oh God, how traumatic is this going to be for 371 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.799 her? And my partner said, I hope she kicks him, and I 372 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.279 was like, no, yeah, I kind of hope so too, but 373 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:52.799 no, that's terrible. And then of course she does kick him, and 374 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.440 it's just, yeah, okay, so I've got I'm gonna go in a 375 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:57.279 different direction with this, but let you talk about that. Yeah, what 376 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:02.839 was your take on that scene and kind of the whole his feelings Maya in 377 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:06.039 general? Well, they're two very different. What I love about this show 378 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.480 is it, and you mentioned it in Daredevil being a great origin story for 379 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.799 Fisk. This is another great Fisk story sitting on top of this Echo story, 380 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.480 and it's it's great for both of them, and that scene means something 381 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:26.720 different in both of their tails. It is Fisk had a lot of pain 382 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.920 and trauma and he is a broken, broken person who doesn't understand love and 383 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:37.240 that hammer represents something really dark to him, but he thinks it represents freedom. 384 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:38.960 We'll talk about the hammer scene. The hammer scene is I think one 385 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.160 of the most interesting scenes in the whole show. But that is the scene 386 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:47.480 we're talking about Fisk. One of the things that first, let me talk 387 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:48.759 about it for Maya. First, I'll just have to pick pick a person 388 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:53.319 here, Maya. For me, it was interesting to think about that scene. 389 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:59.200 I think it was episode four that it started. And then the fifth 390 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:04.319 scene which is before her mother dies, and it kind of shows she out 391 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:11.799 of curiosity and like adventure shoots a baby, shoots a bird with the with 392 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.640 the rock right, and then she immediately has all this empathy for the bird, 393 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:21.240 the hurting bird, and wants to go like see it saved. But 394 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.480 then after her mother dies, she has no empathy. Like the reason Fisk 395 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.880 is fearful when of him seeing her it is because children have an innate empathy 396 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.559 when they see someone hurt and then they and and he's scared that he'll see 397 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.880 her. Fisk is the monster who hurt this poor vendor, even if he 398 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.720 was the bad guy in this moment, you know, but she after her 399 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.839 mother dies has that same trauma, and she's like, I have I have 400 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.160 trauma and I don't know how to I don't know how to heal. And 401 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.279 now she's losing her empathy, and I think that's like, I think that's 402 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:00.240 a very deliberate thing. So for her, I think that moment is showing 403 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.960 her sort of beginning down sort of a dark path, you know. And 404 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:11.200 for Fisk, it's this moment of I found someone broken like me, I 405 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.200 found someone that also, you know, at that young age, like at 406 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.200 my young age, when I was young, I killed my father with a 407 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:25.279 hammer. This child sees this bloody mess on the ground, breathing or not, 408 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.160 can't even tell, blood dripping down his face, and just wants to 409 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.559 kick him, and he sees himself in her. So I agree with you. 410 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:41.359 I don't think that that scene is a like I don't sorry, I 411 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:48.960 don't think that scene is I'm sorry, my brain is facing edit edit edit, 412 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.400 So I think we're Are you trying to say that you don't think that 413 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.200 scene is him trying to me? I think that scene, I don't don't 414 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.640 think that scene is showing us a Fisk that is. I don't think this 415 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:11.559 whole show is him manipulating her because I think he genuinely needs someone who understands 416 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.200 him, the same reason he loves Vanessa, the same reason Vanessa works is 417 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:18.720 because when she finds out when he blows up all the Russians in season one 418 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.920 of Daredevil and she sees him do it, she doesn't turn away. She 419 00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.400 turns toward him. She wants to be with him because the power he's projecting, 420 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:32.839 but she is just like him and doesn't turn away, like Vanessa doesn't 421 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.279 turn away from the horrible things that Fist does. I mean, in some 422 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.279 ways, I feel like and I never really put it together until they just 423 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:45.200 heard you describe it so well. The Echo Fisk relationship is very similar to 424 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.119 the darker tellings of the Batman Robin relationship. You know, if you look 425 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:52.319 at things like Titans and some other things that are really from Dick Grayson's perspective, 426 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.160 where there's an extent to which, like Bruce Wayne both he recognizes, 427 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.480 yeah, that Dick Grayson is in a similar place, and a part of 428 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.720 him wants to prevent that. But then when he realized that, when like 429 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.640 Dick Grayson, sees what Bruswayne Batman is doing, he's kind of like, 430 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:08.359 Okay, well, I guess he is going to be like me, and 431 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.640 so I need to train him in that regard. Man, that is a 432 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.799 great point. That's a really really solid point. They both lost parents in 433 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.240 traumatic ways. They both well one killed parents, but you know, it 434 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:23.559 is very much the dark side of that. I love that. Yeah, 435 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.680 And I think part of it is also to me. I think you're completely 436 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.200 right about how Maya has lost empathy, and I think one of the I 437 00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.119 think the loss of her mother is a big part of it. But I 438 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:38.559 also think when basically her grandmother is in so much pain and so much anger 439 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:44.480 over the loss of her own daughter that her grandmother can't have empathy for it. 440 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.279 I think from Maya's perspective, she sees a total lack of empathy from 441 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:49.599 her grandmother. Yeah, you know, and then she goes to the school 442 00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.440 and a lack of empathy from the ice cream guy and a lack of empathy 443 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.480 from the teacher. Really, yeah, she leaves her community that is all 444 00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:02.480 about empathy for her. Everyone in her community knows asl because her mother was 445 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.680 deaf, and they're all like communicating in a way that shows they care about 446 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:11.720 her. And that's why I think the fact that Fisk never learned is real 447 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.000 evidence to the fact that he does not know how to love. Like like 448 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:22.240 I I I not that like every person in a person's life that is deaf 449 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.880 has learned asl but like if he he's been, he's been in her life, 450 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.680 her entire life, twenty years, twenty twenty five years, and like 451 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.440 he's never learned, and she calls him out for it, and you know, 452 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.319 like he convinced that. I thought, it seems like such a great 453 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.319 moment when he invinced the he brings that the contact that allows her to hear 454 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.720 him. I thought it was so cool. But then also it's like keep 455 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:48.279 spent his money instead of actually taking the time to learn. Yeah, I 456 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.079 think that's the thing is like you know the stories you hear about like kids 457 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.559 with rich parents where it's like, you know, daddy tries to buy my 458 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.079 love and stuff like that, and I think sometimes it can be a sign 459 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.640 of a real lack of affection. And now, but I think, like, 460 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.000 you know, I had this with my parents a little bit, my 461 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.960 father, you know, where I did think it was you know, you 462 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.640 learn that money is often the way to solve problems, and I think to 463 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:14.839 me, that technology, which I definitely want to talk about, is a 464 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.440 part of it. But another part of it is, you know, she 465 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.079 gets in trouble with the police, and she calls him and he shows up 466 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:23.319 like an hour later. It's clearly that same night, and he has with 467 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:30.079 him an interpreter who he is comfortable talking to about talking to Maya about some 468 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.119 of the criminal parts of what he's doing at a very early moment. And 469 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.440 clearly he doesn't trust that interpreter entirely, as we find out later when he 470 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:45.799 has her killed. But to me, what that showed was is that he 471 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.359 was very conscious of the fact that there was a member of his family who 472 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:53.519 he needed to be able to communicate with, and he had taken proactive efforts 473 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.200 to be ready at a moment's notice to do that. But as we found 474 00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:00.799 out, he did it by throwing money at the situation instead of actually learning. 475 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.839 And for me, I think this is so important and that it like 476 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:11.160 I think, if you just write off that as oh, he doesn't really 477 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.279 care about Maya, that's why he used the technology instead, it's all wrong 478 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.400 and part of why this is so important to me. And here let's get 479 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:19.440 into the representation of it a bit. And again I want to point out 480 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.480 I am not deaf myself. I am disabled, which is not exactly the 481 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.079 same but has a lot of overlaps. A lot of deaf people are very 482 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.160 adamant that death is not a disability, but it's a different way of being 483 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.319 physical in the world that you have often heard me say, I think I've 484 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.720 said it on the MCU cast or does send on my own podcast a bunch 485 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:44.400 of times that I and a lot of other disabled people are often very frustrated 486 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:49.000 with the idea that we get represented in like superhero shows, science fiction shows, 487 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:56.039 fantasy shows. But then very quickly people use the science fiction technology or 488 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.480 the magic to basically erase our disability to the point where the character is not 489 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.640 going through any of the things that disabled person really would go through, and 490 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.279 so it kind of becomes like, Eh, well, this isn't really our 491 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:15.039 story anymore. What they did with that machine is the single best example I 492 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.720 have ever seen of saying this is science fiction, so we're gonna use technology 493 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.559 that no one's thought of, but it's not going to be to erase the 494 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:27.480 disability. It's going to be to better bridge the gap, to help you 495 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.359 help other people better, make a world that disabled people can better function in, 496 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:32.960 or deaf people can better function. And again it's not being the same 497 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.519 thing, but in a way that doesn't embrace the disability. And it meant 498 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.599 so I cried during that scene, and I think it's brilliant that they could 499 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:45.000 both show that and be like, hey, like, clearly I think deaf 500 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:46.000 people. We were working with them to be like, no, no, 501 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:51.279 don't make She already said to Hawkeye that she doesn't want technology. She doesn't 502 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.160 think being deaf is bad, it's just different. Don't make the technology to 503 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:59.160 fix her deafness. Make the technology to fix the fact that he doesn't know 504 00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:01.880 how to communicate with her, you know, Like to me, it would 505 00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:06.680 be the equivalent if like, you know, Tony Stark or some other like 506 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.720 super you know, maybe Reary Richards or someone like that, or to invent 507 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.240 Reary Williams. I'm sorry. You know, you have a character in a 508 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:19.279 wheelchair, give them something where like they can press a button and like nanotech 509 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.799 will shoot out and create a ramp to go up to any step, right, 510 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:27.559 like amazing technology that does this in our own world. But it's still 511 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.000 not about like fix a racing the disability. It's just about making the world 512 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.640 more accessible to the disabled person. So to me, it was so brilliant 513 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:38.799 that they could both do that. But also then as a further beat to 514 00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:42.920 the story, be like, yeah, this is amazing tech and this is 515 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.799 a much better representation way of doing it. But also it's a sign of 516 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:52.079 the brokenness of their relationship that he still doesn't want to just he wants to 517 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:53.960 throw money at the problem and buy the tech instead of just actually learning how 518 00:33:53.960 --> 00:34:00.000 to communicate with her. Yeah, it's a really really complex and interesting moment 519 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:05.759 because the first thought, my first thought watching it was like, this is 520 00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:10.840 such an amazing overture that he like that he made this device that like can 521 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.480 communicate, but it's still isn't him learning, isn't him taking the time, 522 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:20.760 It's him throwing money. It's the problem I I and also like watching it, 523 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.639 I had a real sense of like, is this is this hold on? 524 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:30.760 What's that noise? Sorry, there's a truck beeping outside, which is 525 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:32.400 Weird're not hearing it. So it's weird because I'm not near the street at 526 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:37.159 all, So like, I think they must be backing up my driveway to 527 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.960 deliver a package or something, but like it's it's it's funny that I don't 528 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:45.039 ever hear trucks and I'm in my office that is intentionally the furthest away from 529 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:54.119 the street, you know, anyway there Oh you say, oh, yeah, 530 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.519 I had a real sense of this could be I don't know if that 531 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:02.320 kind of technology exists in the world at all or could or has, but 532 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:06.679 yeah, I got a real sense of this could be a Star Trek communicator 533 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:10.760 situation, where like they they created Star Trek Communicator and then thirty years later 534 00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:15.280 they had flip phones for the same reason, because those geeks were watching that 535 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:22.960 show that that's technology seems so doable. It's just animations over a like over 536 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:30.199 an augmented reality situation with with easy translation software, like you could do that, 537 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.079 like the right the right person could probably put that together in a fairly 538 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.559 quick amount of time. I was like, man, this is totally a 539 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:39.960 doable thing. And I was like, wow, that's cool. And if 540 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.639 it doesn't exist, I can't imagine someone didn't see that and go that's very 541 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.360 doable and I could do that tomorrow, you know. I thought that was 542 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:52.079 very cool, but but it did the revelation about the characters is what's most 543 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.360 important. And one thing if you noticed too, he does use sign throughout 544 00:35:55.400 --> 00:36:01.800 the show, but only very manipulative phrases like we are family, you know, 545 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.719 like he's just like he uses these like I love you maya like stuff 546 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.880 like that, just like he uses them in the most manipulative way, only 547 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.000 phrases that. And I don't even think I genuinely think he wants to be 548 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.639 in her life. He wants love from her, but he doesn't know how 549 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:24.280 to give love, and he doesn't know how how to not be manipulating and 550 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:28.800 just trying to get what he wants out of her, you know. Yeah, 551 00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:30.039 Well, and that's I think, at least the last question I want 552 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:34.960 to ask you, and then let's talk more about Echo herself. I think 553 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.119 that, Yeah, Like I think it's easy to write him off as he 554 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.159 never really loved her, is just using her. I don't think that's the 555 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:45.679 case at all. I think that one of the things that is that we 556 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:51.480 are seeing Kingpin at a time when he is still carrying He's still very more 557 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:54.000 conflicted about what he did to his father, and a part of him still 558 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:59.039 feels an awful lot of guilt about that. And when I took away from 559 00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:05.119 that very end scene is that she heals his pain, but a lot of 560 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.880 the pain that she heals is, like I said, the guilt that he 561 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.400 has about that. Like I think even in that scene with the ice cream 562 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.840 vendor, not that he regrets it, but it's kind of like the like, 563 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:19.880 Okay, I kind of lost control of myself. This is maybe not 564 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.440 the best I don't want It's like, I don't want to see my at 565 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:27.239 my worst. You know, it's the monster that he is and that he 566 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:30.559 like, it's the it's the Jeckyll to his hide or whatever, or the 567 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.480 hide to his Jeckyl. I don't know he he's scared. He both like 568 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.199 knows that he uses that side of himself and needs that side of himself, 569 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:42.559 but also I think he's obviously ashamed of that side of himself. And that's 570 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:46.159 why Echoes so special to him, because she saw it and didn't shy away. 571 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.760 Eactly, yeah, she doesn't. And that's where I think that the 572 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.800 I think you're right that in some ways I think Echo may have made him 573 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.360 and even more of a villain because she takes away his guilt, she takes 574 00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:01.320 away his shame, and that kind of tells him, no, you did 575 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:06.760 that. You protected your mother, you did the right thing. You can 576 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:09.559 protect the city in the same way. That's a really interesting interpretation. I 577 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:15.199 took it very differently, but I took it as she got out of his 578 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.000 pain, and I have no idea what that means for him, Like, 579 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.039 yeah, a Fisk without his pain, without his trauma informing all of his 580 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:29.840 decisions, and without him basing everything on that powerless little boy, and that's 581 00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:35.119 why he seeks power. I don't know who is Fisk without that? And 582 00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:37.559 like, I don't know. And that's what I think is such so fascinating 583 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:43.519 about ending the show this way, both there and ending the show with the 584 00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.719 Mayor thing. It's like this could go so many different ways, and like 585 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:52.519 her healing of him could mean so many things, but I don't know what 586 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.079 it means, and I like, I'm completely enraptured by the idea of finding 587 00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:01.199 out, Like I'm so into it, so into it as well. Let's 588 00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:05.920 talk about Maya. Let's talk about Echo then, and nice, simple, 589 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:10.840 easy ethical question. Is Maya Lopez a hero? Not yet? Well? 590 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:20.000 I mean she clearly Okay, lots of things I've been saying not yet all 591 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.199 season but obviously this last episode. I've just watched last episode, so I'm 592 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:27.480 kind of reframing everything. We watched it late last night on cast it about 593 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:35.320 it. I think, clearly the ending she is taking heroic actions to save 594 00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:43.400 her family, but that in itself I don't think shows heroism. Fighting for 595 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.760 the people that you specifically care about, yeah, doesn't necessarily make you a 596 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:51.679 hero, And I think she's a bit of an anti hero. Clearly, 597 00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:57.480 she's done some terrible things. She's turned over a new leaf, it seems, 598 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.679 in the way she saved her family, but at the end she's her 599 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:09.679 healing of Fisk is both a beautiful thing because it's her choosing to use this 600 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:14.880 power she can. She has these glowy hands that she can either fight with 601 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:17.360 or like hurt people with, or heal people with, and she chooses to 602 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.440 heal in that moment, and I think that's freaking beautiful. I love it. 603 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.079 But in that in that thing, she says, you are my uncle, 604 00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.559 like so, so is her doing that a real choice of from empathy 605 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:38.719 or is it a choice from uh like another person that she just needs in 606 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:44.280 her life that she has has always known as her uncle and she wants to 607 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:46.679 see him better, you know, wants to see him healed. She doesn't 608 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:51.360 want to hurt him. I think I think one thing that that scene reveals 609 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.239 is Fisk was right when he said, I saw the look on your face. 610 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:59.599 You were happy to see that I was alive. And like I think 611 00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.599 she I think she she's she did it in a rash moment, but like 612 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.000 she cares about Fisk, which makes this relationship and all of her decisions way 613 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:13.400 more complicated than just the hero did the thing the hero. The hero didn't 614 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.360 just turn the other cheek. You know, it's not the hero to turn 615 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.840 the other cheek. Story. I do think that she had a very luke 616 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:28.119 Skywalker moment with the hammer, and that is you strike me down, you 617 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:32.199 know, like like that the Emperor is. He's playing the Emperor and and 618 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.280 Vader when he says, you know, kill me with this hammer and you'll 619 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:43.400 be free, because really that will just cause her to forever be in the 620 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.559 cycle of violence. That hammer scene is so fascinating to me because it's here's 621 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:52.159 the hammer, kill me right now, and you'll be free. And he 622 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:53.719 said I had to do it. I had to do it to be free. 623 00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:58.840 Do you think Fisk is free. No, he's still in that freaking 624 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:02.880 bedroom yelling about his father beating his mother. And that's because he just accepted 625 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.079 the cycle of violence and continued it. Now, he was a victim at 626 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:08.840 that point, his mother was a victim. He did, but he never 627 00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:14.119 healed from those things. I think that's what the healing Maya gave him is 628 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.960 supposed to represent. But I just don't know what it means for the future. 629 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.719 I just think so much of this I love, I love it. 630 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.400 I love it all. I love it all. I love what you said 631 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.639 there. But the only difference I think is and this is where I think 632 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:28.280 it's he's more like Vader than he is the Emperor. I don't think Kingpin 633 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.280 and anyway thinks he's going to live through like I think Kingpin is both kind 634 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.360 of inviting her into the cycle that he wants to be free of. Yeah, 635 00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:37.239 oh yeah, I think. No, I agree. I think a 636 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:44.639 part of it is because he is somewhat like he is. Like, I 637 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:50.039 think he is so hurt by the idea that something with this what he saw 638 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.159 as a loving, familiar relationship has been so broken that there's a part of 639 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:59.360 him that's like, yeah, if you are in some ways. It's a 640 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:04.079 perfect test where he is like, I don't want to live if Maya, 641 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.280 the person I thought was my family, hates me that much, and so 642 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.239 this is the way to test it. If you hate me enough to kill 643 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:14.079 me, then I don't want to be alive. And I want to you 644 00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:15.599 know. And I think that's the like and yeah, and it's you're right, 645 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.480 It's it's just it's, oh, this is and like I like the 646 00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.400 Disney I think the Disney Plus shows have been good. WandaVision was great. 647 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.199 You know, I really love some other things, but this is the kind 648 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:30.239 of like like and then I know people who are out there who are like, 649 00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:31.280 oh my god, there wasn't enough fight scenes. There was this, 650 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:36.239 There wasn't that. To me, this is the like, deeply ethically rich 651 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.119 stuff that I love so much. The only the only thing I would just 652 00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:43.719 say, and I love what you said about being a hero, because yeah, 653 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:49.280 to me, the two things that most make someone a hero are one 654 00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.480 that they're willing to recognize the difference between trying to do the right thing versus 655 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:57.480 acting out of vengeance and and you know that kind of thing, And to 656 00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.039 me, I think that's the fundamental star Wars question, which once again you 657 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:04.519 bashed on Star Wars, on the Star Trek, a recent episode of Star 658 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:08.280 Trek Quest, and a Star Trek Universe podcast. I have a corrective email 659 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.639 to send to you about that that we'll get to another time, but I 660 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:19.039 don't even remember. Just flows out of me, you know, I'm so 661 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:24.679 angry there. Oh yeah, it's the fan host Wanda moment right there, 662 00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:30.079 and I'm Wanda, but like we actually that means something works in today's world. 663 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.480 But anyway, you know what I mean, Uh, Doctor Strange and 664 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.800 all that put aside, the point being that, I think the other important 665 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.039 part of being a hero is yeah, that that is you're not just defending 666 00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:45.599 your own You're you're not just defending yourself and your family. You're defending the 667 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:52.000 defenseless. You're defending people who aren't part your group. To you hate to 668 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.199 me. I think what was so brilliant about this was it was like seventy 669 00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.760 five percent of a hero origin story. Yeah, because it is her moving 670 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:02.800 past or desire for vengeance. It is her you know, moving to a 671 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:07.199 better place and accepting that healing can be a power. But she's not quite 672 00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.880 there. Of like, I'm gonna go save a whole bunch of people who 673 00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.119 I don't care about because bad things are gonna happen. And I think it's 674 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:16.960 what I think in a lot of ways, she's gonna wind up kind of 675 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.960 being to take the Batman thing again. She's gonna kind of want it being 676 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:24.920 Catwoman to Daredevil's Batman, you know, in terms of the like much more 677 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.679 morally gray, much less of a hero, but probably willing to do a 678 00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:35.159 heroic thing in part because of like her connection to Daredevil and and met Murdock 679 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.320 inspiring her, not even inspiring her, but like helping to you know, 680 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.559 because I think she's in a like one of the things I loved, and 681 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:44.199 that makes it sound like I think her story is in service to Mett Murdoch's. 682 00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:45.719 I don't think that's the case at all. I think she has her 683 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.880 own story that I like that she's not just a one of the male hero 684 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.760 now. And so I've been going on for a while. This is the 685 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:57.199 last thing I'll say. I love that when they talk about all the different 686 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:01.280 parts of the different Choctaw Warrior women who they've been highlighting, that one of 687 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:05.960 the things they mentioned is ferocity. Mm hmm. Because you almost never hear 688 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:09.280 ferocity talked about as a positive trait for a character. It's kind of like 689 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.039 a berserker thing. If there's one character in the entire MCU who I would 690 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:21.280 say has like embodied ferocity, it's Kingpin, you know. So I just 691 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.840 thought that was such an interesting like she's not gonna be your normal hero. 692 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:28.760 She's gonna tap into things that we're not comfortable with heroes tapping into. But 693 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:30.639 she's someone we're gonna root for in a lot of ways. Yeah, man, 694 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:39.039 I love that whole thing of a cunning strategy Ferocity loves those are your 695 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:43.239 tools. I just loved it, Like those are your tools that you get 696 00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.800 from your ancestors, from this line of women that you come from. I 697 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:52.760 thought that was so freaking cool and just like a way of stating her like 698 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:57.559 the core of her character in a really non cheesy way. I in some 699 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:00.639 ways, I obviously some people will think that's cheese. Her dead mother appearing 700 00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:07.039 to her and like having an entire speech. I keep uh yeah, I 701 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:12.320 kept trying to like reframe a lot of what was going on through like because 702 00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:15.760 I really like a show when it like dances on the line, is this 703 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.360 religious experience really happening or is it not? You know what I mean? 704 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.920 And this show, when when she finally like spread her powers out to her 705 00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:28.039 uh, her cousin and her grandma and they started fighting, I was like, 706 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.719 oh, no, this is happening. This is fully like they fully 707 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.719 Everything up until that moment was like, even when she pushed the train, 708 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:38.920 it was like, that could have just been her believing that that's what allowed 709 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:42.000 her to out of that situation. It could have been a change in the 710 00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:47.360 you know, the chain itself with a combined with the train changing directions slightly 711 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:52.280 or something. You know, it could have been anything. And uh but 712 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.639 until that when when the grandma starts beating up the thugs, I was like, 713 00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.679 Okay, that's not really Yeah, that's the I can't I can't headcanon 714 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:05.960 this anymore. But yeah, it was one of my only quibbles. I 715 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.880 did wish that they'd kind of done a little bit of a forced ghost thing 716 00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:15.320 with Maya's mother because in a show, granted, comic movies have gotten me 717 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:20.760 very cynical about is someone actually dead, but particularly in a show where someone 718 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:25.159 who was shot in the face is still alive, when her mother just showed 719 00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:28.280 up a part of me was like, wait, is her mother just still 720 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:30.880 alive? Like in an actual literal sense, because again, totally someone was 721 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.719 shot in the head, so maybe she lived through a car accident somehow. 722 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.559 Yeah, but yeah, it was really well done. Yeah for sure. 723 00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:42.920 I in the middle of it, And I said this on mcucast last night, 724 00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.320 in the middle of it, I said, what is this Disney shit? 725 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:49.800 Because and I didn't even mean it in a negative way. I meant 726 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:53.840 it in a I was looking for a dark, gritty show about Kingpin and 727 00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:59.039 Echo, like just trying to kill each other, and suddenly I am weeping 728 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:04.119 because a character is talking to her dead mother and like talking about the generations 729 00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.280 and how they empower her. And it was just so like it was such 730 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.400 a beautiful moment. I I didn't when I say Disney shit, I just 731 00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:14.119 mean like it was happy, Like it was just so freaking happy, and 732 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:20.559 like, uh, I had a hard time like uh yeah getting back from 733 00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:22.400 that, Like I found myself crying through most of the last half of the 734 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:28.960 show when all of her Another Star Wars connection and this this is the last 735 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:30.960 mention of Star Wars was me like referencing Star Wars. This is me making 736 00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:36.000 fun of Star Wars. But how in the world did they pull off that 737 00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:39.400 scene where all the ancestors appear better than Star Wars did? Like, I 738 00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:45.280 was so much more emotional when her It's because it was personal, Like I 739 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:50.679 realized why, but it was her. Her family appears behind her as basically 740 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:53.960 as you say force ghosts, but you know, without the blue translucence, 741 00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.960 all the force ghosts appear behind her to show the support of her ancestors. 742 00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:01.960 They do the same thing in uh, you know the lat was what's the 743 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.119 last one called the Rise of Skywalker. They do the same thing, but 744 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:10.239 it like it's so impactful here, you know, it's the same moment, 745 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:15.280 but it's so freaking good here. Yeah, and it makes me I'm so 746 00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:21.800 curious for Maya's character going forward because does she have powers now? Is one 747 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:27.119 of my questions? Or is she just they say at moments of great Trial. 748 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.599 They say it throughout the thing that at moments a great trial they come 749 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.599 to people in their in their their ancestors and give them power to protect their 750 00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:38.800 family sort of thing. Yeah, that's sort of how they go with And 751 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.159 like that means that if that that that holds, I don't really want to 752 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:51.440 see Maya become just uh, you know, captain glowy hands that can do 753 00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.679 cool things and heal whoever she wants and do whatever she needs. Like I 754 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.480 kind of want these powers of hers to be rare. I want her to 755 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:00.920 continue to use her her other things, the kind, the strategy, the 756 00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.599 fierceness, and I want her to like be awesome because she's Maya. And 757 00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:10.519 then occasionally, oh, this is one of those moments. This is a 758 00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:14.199 This is one of the moments is where her she calls on her ancestors to 759 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.480 do some big feat, you know, and that's always I want always to 760 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:20.519 have the kind of impact that had here. I don't want it to become 761 00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.000 like that's just what she does in every fight, you know. Yeah, 762 00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:27.559 I mean like in some ways her story reminds you a lot of Jessica Jones, 763 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.559 especially how Jessica Jones similarly was like, I don't want to be a 764 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:35.119 hero for a long time. And we know that Jessica Jones has like super 765 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.760 strength and can kind of fly sort of kind of maybe, but like most 766 00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:43.079 of her stories, but situations where those powers won't actually fix things, you 767 00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.119 know, And I think kind of a similar way, it's the same way. 768 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:49.760 I don't want, like you know, Danny Rand or Reary Williams, 769 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:53.480 to like rebuild her prosthetic and make it totally different, you know. And 770 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:58.559 just about that, I first of a out the powers. Then I'll get 771 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:02.840 to the ampute part. I have been part of why that first few moments 772 00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:07.039 through me, I do know there's an awful I'm not Native by any means 773 00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:10.360 myself, but I know there's a really long, awful history of white people 774 00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.679 kind of you know, mythologizing and like being like, oh, you know 775 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:21.119 Native indigenous wisdom and like they have all these like mystical powers. And so 776 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:22.159 when I saw some of that, I was a little like, You're not 777 00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:25.360 going that direction, are you? And I think what becomes very clear as 778 00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:30.960 you go further is that no, everything about the chalk Tawk connections that she 779 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:36.480 has is very authentic, and it's very much based in their mythology and their 780 00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:38.679 understanding of things and their kind of visions of stuff. And I think that 781 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:45.119 what I'd keep reminding myself was I have an idea of what it is supposed 782 00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:49.320 to look like when a dead person comes back to speak to someone, either 783 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.679 just in their mind or in kind of a mystical supernatural way, or in 784 00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:55.719 something that's kind of a combination of it. I have an idea of what 785 00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:01.079 it looks like when the ancestors speak to you, and my idea comes out 786 00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:05.960 of a very particular perspective and mythology set. That's not what this show is 787 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.079 dealing with. And the Chalkton Nation itself, like there's a little thing at 788 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:12.920 the very end of the last episode that says that they worked in partnership with 789 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.840 them. If you go to the Choctaw Nation's own website, it has like 790 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:22.679 a long thing about here's all the stuff that Echo draws upon and how connected 791 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:28.079 it was. And I think it is just I talk about representation all the 792 00:53:28.119 --> 00:53:30.039 time and how important it is, and I really think this show is a 793 00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:35.280 master class in how you do that right, in how you really do it. 794 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.559 Not that it, you know, as the anti woke people will say, 795 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.440 like, not that it like obliterates her character or obliterates any of the 796 00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:45.800 amazing story beat moments we get or there's a great story. But it really 797 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:49.519 felt like they did so much to make this very authentic to that background, 798 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.639 to that history and to kind of invite others in but without being like, 799 00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.239 we're not going to dumb it down for non native folk. We're going to 800 00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:00.480 tell you the story as it would be from this perspective. Yeah, yeah, 801 00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:04.039 yeah, that's very cool. And I you know, I I didn't 802 00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:07.639 give them any thought, but I do, like I am, I, 803 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:12.559 I I definitely like had to trust. I know they got creators and consultants 804 00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:15.679 on the show that we're putting putting a lot of effort into trying to make 805 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:22.400 it more authentic, and so I I admit I've been giving it a lot 806 00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.000 of credit for just like, Okay, I'm assuming this is all authentic. 807 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:29.280 I'm not. I'm not doing a lot of digging myself, but I but 808 00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:34.039 I I I'm hopeful and just based on what I've heard the creators say and 809 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.519 stuff, it seems like they're they're really drawing upon Yeah, they're they're myths, 810 00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:42.320 you know, And I think I'm not native, So like you, 811 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:44.599 I'm kind of like, as an outsider, I'm trusting, but I'm also 812 00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.880 hearing that I'm hearing from a lot of deaf people and hard of hearing people 813 00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:51.440 that like they really felt very similar and how authentic was I can say as 814 00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:54.960 an amputee, I won't speak for the entire empty community. I already had 815 00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:58.480 a Twitter argument with one person who was like, I'm an amputee, but 816 00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.320 wokeness is bullshit, and like, I don't want to be represented. I 817 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:05.519 just want stories of you know, fine, but I think that like and 818 00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.360 I certainly heard a lot of my empty colleagues talk about this. It was 819 00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:15.039 for I felt one hundred percent seen by this character, Ayes. I think 820 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.960 it's it really speaks to intersectionality and the interestingness of like, this is a 821 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.119 deaf character, this is a native character, this is a woman. I'm 822 00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:24.880 not any of those three things. I can't say I understand the character experience, 823 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.480 but just the like, I'll give you one basic example. Misty Knight, 824 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.480 I think, is another one of those things where it's like, yes, 825 00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:37.840 she loses a limb, but it's not the amputee experience that anyone else 826 00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:42.639 knows because her arm is cut off, and like, three days later, 827 00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:47.440 Danny Rand and his corporation have made her this amazing high tech arm for most 828 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:52.440 amputees. And I should say, by the way, that like, amputee 829 00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:57.920 is not the perfect term for people who are missing limbs, because some people 830 00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.960 are born without that in this case, the characters the amputee and the but 831 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.800 like the people use prosthetic limbs who are similar. But for anybody who does 832 00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:12.360 lose their limb in any kind of traumatic way, it takes like think about 833 00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:15.000 any injury and how much it swells, like that entire area swells up and 834 00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:20.199 is also incredibly tender. And also often there's muscle graphs and skin graphs that 835 00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:22.880 are needed. The idea that you're going to put anything on that for weeks, 836 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.679 let alone months, is just ridiculous. Yeah, And so the fact 837 00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:31.599 that little girl Maya when she and her father are leaving Oklahoma to go back 838 00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:35.960 to New York, it's clearly been a couple of weeks, like her mother 839 00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.679 has been buried, she's out of the hospital, and she still has her 840 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:43.440 stump bandaged, and she's not using a prosthetic leg yet. I was like, 841 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.480 that's what representation looks like, you know that? And then stuff like 842 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:51.679 about how when her leg gets damaged and her grandfather has to help her rebuild 843 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.400 it and the first version he makes isn't perfect and so she limps on it 844 00:56:54.480 --> 00:57:00.480 like just there were so many things like that, and then because to me, 845 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:02.079 what I want to see is kind of my experience at its best, 846 00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:06.760 you know. And so I don't think I know how to have a fight 847 00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:10.039 where at some point I cock my prosthetic limb like a weapon and hold it 848 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.079 back so that I release it with even more force. But she did that 849 00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:17.920 and it was freaking awesome. It made for a great fight scene, and 850 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:22.199 it felt like, yeah, is that stretching the bonds of stretching the bounds 851 00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:28.880 of credulity? Sure? Do I care? No, because any less realistic 852 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:32.280 than you know, Tony Stark building the first Iron Man suit in the cave, 853 00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.400 you know. So yeah, I just everything about it really spoke to 854 00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:42.599 They really were being serious about we want this to be a comic book story. 855 00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:45.719 We want to have fun with it, but we're not gonna We're gonna 856 00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:50.719 tell a story about an actual amputee and understand what that experience is like. 857 00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:53.320 And it just made me so so happy and feel so so seen. That's 858 00:57:53.360 --> 00:58:00.960 awesome. Man. I found myself thinking more about it with the uh with 859 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:06.360 the the deaf experience, just because it's so uh, it's it's it's very 860 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:09.559 different from my own. And so there were a lot of things on the 861 00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:15.679 show where I was like, man, I like, I didn't even realize 862 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:19.440 that something would be different. Does that? Does that make sense? Like, 863 00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:22.400 oh, you don't even realize that this would be different in your life 864 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:30.480 if this if you had this disability or uh not disability or difference. Yeah, 865 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:32.599 yeah, so so so I love to hear that that you felt that 866 00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:39.320 way with the the the amputee portion of it when she the one the one 867 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:43.239 part I wanted to ask you about, And did it seem to stretch the 868 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:49.639 bounds of credulity? Uh? When when the grandfather was able to fix her 869 00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:53.360 leg? Did that seem a little like far fetched? It did to me? 870 00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:57.800 And I don't know. I just know that, like there are various 871 00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:05.000 levels of prosthesis and like some can do a lot more than others. Clearly 872 00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:07.880 the one that Maya has been using in her fight sequences are is amazing. 873 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:14.119 But the fact that her uncle or her grandfather was able to do it and 874 00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.679 in a fairly quick manner and make one that in a few seconds later she 875 00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:22.519 was jumping off the house with I was like, that seems to strain that 876 00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.400 but like the strain realism, but like I'm going with it, But like 877 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:30.920 you said, it's not much different than a you know, Tony start building 878 00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:32.760 it in the cave, building the ironman in the cave. So this is 879 00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:37.639 actually a great question and gets it, I think a part of the prosthetic 880 00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:39.239 experience that most people don't understand. And like I hadn't even thought it in 881 00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:42.280 these terms, but you're right, it's one more way they get it very 882 00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.239 right. There are two parts to every prosthetic or at least every prosthetic leg, 883 00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:51.360 because that's what I know best about. There is the actual foot itself, 884 00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:54.480 and then there's the socket, which is what your leg plugs into and 885 00:59:54.519 --> 01:00:00.159 connects to. Okay, the leg itself is incredibly It can be very basic 886 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:06.960 or it can be very high tech. And like you think about that South 887 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.880 African runner who then also I think like killed his girlfriend or like did something 888 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:15.679 horrible, but like he he ran at the Olympics on these prosthetic legs that 889 01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:20.519 basically like gave him a huge advantage. And there's some interning conversations about because 890 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:23.000 like, like even my prosthetic leg, which is still like if it's what 891 01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:27.159 insurance will pay for, it's the high end of what insurance will pay Forcause 892 01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:30.920 I'm very prilugient I have a very good insurance. It has better shock absorbers 893 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:37.119 than my car does. Like and I fully believe that Wilson Fisk could paint 894 01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:42.800 wood and could pay for the very top level of like foot that she could 895 01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.639 have, and like, to give an example, there are times where she 896 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:51.800 like drops down and is fine with it. That would probably be painful for 897 01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:53.840 me because just I don't have quite a high quality. So like, if 898 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:58.480 I drop from a distance in my foot lands, it like creates a reverberation 899 01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:01.320 that goes up into my stump, but it's quite painful. But I fully 900 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:06.360 believe that she has the foot that that's not a problem with the foot then 901 01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:10.400 attaches to a socket and the socket is you know, it's a plaster mold 902 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:17.119 that is that it's built of to that fits around your your stump, and 903 01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:21.719 then there's a at the bottom of the socket is the piece that connects that 904 01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:27.519 to the foot. They were very careful to show that the foot itself was 905 01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:30.840 not damaged. It was the socket and the way that the socket connects to 906 01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:37.000 the foot, because part of why I have trouble walking a lot is that 907 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:38.719 in part because I'm heavier. This is not a fat shaming thing in the 908 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:44.519 slightest. It's just the way bodies work. The more fat there is on 909 01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:46.280 something, and my stump has a good deal of fat, not just because 910 01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:50.960 of my own weight, but because of just I have a very short knee, 911 01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:53.199 and so it's the way it's must. There's also biological details, but 912 01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:57.519 the point is it's hard to get a very good perfect fit, and so 913 01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:00.320 it wobbles a little bit. So like if I if I kicked someone, 914 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.280 it probably knocked my whole leg off of alignment. Maya has a very well 915 01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:09.760 made one that fits her perfectly. When it's damaged as it is in that 916 01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:15.039 train scene, it's very hard for her and that's why. And he can 917 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.920 fix it to some extent. But if you notice, even after what her 918 01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:23.360 grandfather does, initially it doesn't work very well and she is still limping somewhat. 919 01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:27.320 It's only when she gets the finished version of it that he can. 920 01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:31.400 And the first couple of times, like aprosthetic limbs made, I was expecting 921 01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:37.599 it to be this super high tech, you know, experience and the foot 922 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.599 is that, But the actual making of the socket and everything else, it's 923 01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:45.000 just a guy with screwdrivers and pliers, like fuddling around the way someone would 924 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:49.119 under the hood of like a nineteen seventies car. You know, it's very 925 01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:53.000 much a you know, like grease under your fingernails kind of mechanic experience. 926 01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:57.800 It's not a high tech thing. That's really cool. That were they captured 927 01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:01.679 that. That's really cool. And clearly they knew what they were doing and 928 01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:05.400 knew what they were talking about. That's awesome because I saw that and I 929 01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:07.679 was like, I just know these things are these things are complicated, and 930 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:12.320 it seems weird that he's just been able to rebuild it at all, much 931 01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.000 less get it working so quickly. But yeah, that's awesome. Yea, 932 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:17.320 that they were careful with that, that's super cool. It is. And 933 01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:21.960 I'll say, like, I think the implication is supposed to be in the 934 01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:27.159 same way that like the family learned asl I don't think any random mechanic could 935 01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:29.639 do it, but I think a mechanic could really learned and studied how to 936 01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.840 make prosthetics could do that. Yeah, And so in my head it's like, 937 01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:35.159 oh, of course he's been making prosthetics for her all of her life. 938 01:03:35.199 --> 01:03:37.039 He knows how to do this. Then I realized, wait a minute, 939 01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:40.000 yeah, with her twenty years, So I was like, Okay, 940 01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:45.079 well that that part, but I can understand him being like I want her 941 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.199 to be able to come back. Plus other natives are going to lose their 942 01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:52.159 legs and I'm probably not gonna have good health insurance to me, I have 943 01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:54.159 to head canon a bit. Yeah, but I can very easily head canon 944 01:03:54.519 --> 01:04:00.559 that he decided to learn how to fix prosthetics a because the back of his 945 01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:02.880 mind he's hoping she'll come back one day, but mostly said he can help 946 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:06.840 other people in his community and thus had the skills ready. Yeah, and 947 01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:13.320 I was curious about that too. One of the things we talked about in 948 01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:19.679 them seitcast is why they didn't really get into why the uh the grandparents get 949 01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:25.360 divorced, and we kind of just headcanon. Slash talked about how it's very 950 01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:30.679 possible the trauma of losing their daughter and and and having to deal with that 951 01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:34.280 caused this riff, but also the fact that the grandmother refused to have contact 952 01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:39.480 with Maya's father and liked, you know, writing them off, that all 953 01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:43.880 of that seems very traumatic and very hard to navigate and very hard to make 954 01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:47.679 those choices as a unit, as like a married couple, So I got 955 01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:51.400 I got curious about the possibility, and I don't know, but it's possible 956 01:04:51.400 --> 01:04:55.880 that he may have had more contact with her than the grandmother had. And 957 01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.800 clearly when she went to town, he was the one she went to, 958 01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:00.920 like He's she didn't go to that, So it's possible he has worked on 959 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.840 her leg before, even if it was just when she was younger or as 960 01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:10.559 a child, then once she because it seemed like Bonnie also pot they were 961 01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:14.559 very unclear with when Bonnie and Maya stopped talking, like it was it was 962 01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.039 clear that the grandmother didn't want them talking, but then after the death of 963 01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:20.079 her father, it seemed like she didn't want to talk to any of her 964 01:05:20.119 --> 01:05:26.599 family at all because of the dark road she was taking, you know, 965 01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:30.039 like it seemed that way. But they never are very explicit about it, 966 01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:33.280 because we never really have evidence one way or the other what happened between the 967 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:39.360 time that she left for New York and the time that that she comes back, 968 01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:42.880 like did they have any contact for those twenty years or whatever, And 969 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:45.119 it's not real clear. Yeah, I think it's really true, and I 970 01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:47.719 think there's there's room to explore it. But I also felt like, yeah, 971 01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:50.960 I don't exactly know, but but it all makes sense to Yeah, 972 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:54.840 I believe in gaps and the information allows us to do things like d Cannon 973 01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:57.199 that, Yeah, maybe the grandfather worked on it a few times, like 974 01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:00.280 yeah, whatever, Like maybe they came back to visit twice. Then he 975 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.920 got to do a little bit of tinkering and that informed his ability later. 976 01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:08.119 And like you said, a good story is such that you don't get caught 977 01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:11.360 up in the exact details exactly. Yeah, like until we go on a 978 01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:14.320 podcast, and then we get and cut up in the details regardless, and 979 01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:17.000 that's the point and we enjoy it. There's so much more we can say 980 01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:18.920 about this, and I'll that you have a couple last words, but I 981 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:21.559 just want to say, uh, because we barely talked about the family. 982 01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:25.880 But I just want to say the actress who plays Bonnie, who I know 983 01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:29.440 also is the voice actress for a native character. Yes, that I have 984 01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:32.840 not seen yet, but I want to see it. But there's one scene 985 01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:36.920 in particular that I was like, three minutes is not enough to win an 986 01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:40.360 Emmy, but I think this may be one of the best three minutes of 987 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:45.400 acting I'll ever see in television. This year, where you know, if 988 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:49.280 you're interpreting in theory, you're supposed to be kind of like dispassionate about the 989 01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:53.760 information you're passing back and forth because you have to be, because you have 990 01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:58.559 to be able to translate it. And so the scene when she is the 991 01:06:58.679 --> 01:07:03.280 interpreter as King Pitt is explaining that he is going to kill Bonnie, like 992 01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:08.280 she is having to interpret a threat to her own life, yeah, as 993 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:13.119 though she's not in it. And just the way that the actress was able 994 01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:19.239 to carry the horror and the upsetness on her face without losing a beat and 995 01:07:19.280 --> 01:07:24.079 translating, and that she was having to struggle so much to do it, 996 01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:28.559 but she did it. I was just like, I can't imagine what that 997 01:07:28.599 --> 01:07:31.760 moment is like, but I feel like I am seeing it in this acting 998 01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:36.119 performance, and it was just so well done. It is the terror on 999 01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:42.320 her face and the like urgency at which she's signing because she needs ma to 1000 01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:44.920 understand what's going on. And one of my favorite things about that scene is 1001 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.840 unrelated to acting, which I agree with you is stellar, but one of 1002 01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:53.280 my favorite things about that scene is she never hears the third phrase, she 1003 01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:59.800 never has it interpreted because there's this really rhythm to the scene where Fisk says 1004 01:07:59.800 --> 01:08:03.880 some thing, cuts over to Bonnie signing it, Fisk says something, cuts 1005 01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:09.599 over to Bonnie signing it, and then Fisk says something and as she's turning 1006 01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:13.639 to like see what he's saying, a one of the thugs come in and 1007 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:15.720 comes in and punches her, and it's like a very like oh yeah, 1008 01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:19.439 he gets interrupted, and it's another one of those moments where like, oh, 1009 01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:24.399 the fight scene started and we as the audience and Maya were in this 1010 01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:27.840 experience of just not finding out. We just don't get to find out because 1011 01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.880 the interpreter wasn't given time and it's just like a really small moment, but 1012 01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:34.840 it's like one of those things will if you just don't have the interpreter available 1013 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:38.079 in that moment, you don't get it, you know. And it was 1014 01:08:38.079 --> 01:08:42.119 it was another just like great moment of that experience. You know. It's 1015 01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:45.319 funny. I was talking with a friend about how kind of one thing we 1016 01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:50.359 liked about it is it is really fun in the more traditional MCU when you 1017 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:55.079 know a hero does something great and that has a really quippi line, you 1018 01:08:55.119 --> 01:08:58.399 know, like Peter quill or someone like that says something really funny as he 1019 01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:00.960 finishes a fight. Well, like, it would make no sense for that 1020 01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:04.680 to happen in this because that's not what she's doing. But also in realizing 1021 01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.560 like while she's using her fists, she can't come up with a quippie long 1022 01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:13.239 you know, like she could never be Spider Man because like the way she 1023 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:15.359 talks is also the way she fights. Oh yeah, good point, good 1024 01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:18.720 point. Yeah. I thought a lot about that when she's tied, when 1025 01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:23.479 her hands are tied behind her back, because it's not only uh, not 1026 01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:28.520 only is she physically tied, but she's barred from communicating as well. By 1027 01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:30.760 tying, he has basically gagged as well. Yeah, without gagging, she's 1028 01:09:30.760 --> 01:09:34.560 gagged. I think that was really it just these moments you don't think about 1029 01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:38.840 when you don't read that experience, and it's so cool to see that on 1030 01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:42.680 screen and just get that oh oh yeah, that's totally different than my experience. 1031 01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:45.239 That's different and I would have never ever even thought about it, and 1032 01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:49.079 like that's to me. It's also a great counterpoint where there she's tied up 1033 01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:54.680 in a way that her disability makes harder. Contrasts that to when she's tied 1034 01:09:54.760 --> 01:09:58.800 up by the ankles, right and by the way when you concept like this 1035 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:01.479 that separation I talked about between leg and socket, that's how she gets out. 1036 01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:05.479 Is she separates her leg from her socket, like tying up someone's legs 1037 01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:09.520 when you're kind of a mister potato head and can you know, takes part 1038 01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:12.560 of the part like doesn't work as well. And so yeah, I didn't 1039 01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:15.079 even thought of that. I don't even know if that was intentional. But 1040 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:17.680 having one scene where she's tied in the way that makes her other disability even 1041 01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:21.000 harder, but another scene where she's tied up and because of her disability she 1042 01:10:21.039 --> 01:10:25.800 can get out, which it's just really cool. And you know, the 1043 01:10:25.840 --> 01:10:29.399 way she fights, as you mentioned with like cocking her leg back and springing 1044 01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:33.560 it forward, it is you know, it's the h and when the train 1045 01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:38.680 crushes her leg and the fact that she had that leg's already gone and it's 1046 01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:42.560 still it's still an important thing because she still has to get her prosthetic repaired, 1047 01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:45.880 but it is it is you know, obviously not as painful and not 1048 01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:54.840 as uh, not as traumatizing the the uh. It's these moments in the 1049 01:10:54.840 --> 01:11:00.560 show that show her disability for being aage at times too, and it's a 1050 01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.720 whole like, you know, you used to be a phrase not disabled, 1051 01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:06.840 differently abled, and I'm sure people use it at times, but like this 1052 01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:13.079 was just a real example of that throughout the show, where her her abilities 1053 01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:17.520 as an amputee were like different in different situations that's helped her or hurt her, 1054 01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:21.760 And it's sort of this like, uh, it just is showing how 1055 01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:27.600 that experience can be just so different from ours, from from mine. And 1056 01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:30.479 yeah, I thought it was very cool. I mean, as someone who 1057 01:11:30.520 --> 01:11:32.720 gets to park wherever I want, whatever I want because of my disability, 1058 01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:38.239 Like I totally got that. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I 1059 01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:40.399 would ask if you have any last thoughts, But the fact is, if 1060 01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:44.000 people want to hear Matthew Carroll's last thoughts on MCU and first thoughts and middle 1061 01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:47.920 thoughts, there's five episodes now on the MCU podcast, which is fantastic. 1062 01:11:47.960 --> 01:11:50.720 I'll give you a chance to talk about it into a second, but is 1063 01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:55.279 there any last things you want to And we will be doing a bonus section 1064 01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:58.199 maybe quick like ten minutes because it's gone pretty long, but we will be 1065 01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:00.960 doing a bonus section about more one of the Defenders coming into the MCU and 1066 01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:04.239 kind of our hopes and thoughts about that or into this versus of the MCU. 1067 01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:06.800 But Matt, any of the last things you want to say as part 1068 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:11.039 of this conversation, Oh, Man, not really. I just appreciate you 1069 01:12:11.079 --> 01:12:16.079 having me, and it's good to be here. Hadn't been on the Superhero 1070 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.359 ethics in a long time and always good to be here, man, And 1071 01:12:20.560 --> 01:12:23.920 I just yeah, I love this show. I think this show is really 1072 01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:29.000 really cool, and I love that it is so meaty for representation and so 1073 01:12:29.119 --> 01:12:32.840 meatiaf to have new conversations and so like just it's just really really a great 1074 01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:40.319 show. And as you mentioned, shows with ethical questions, I think the 1075 01:12:40.359 --> 01:12:44.920 Defenders were particularly good with that, and this show, again, I think 1076 01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:46.720 is just hitten out of the part with a lot of that and some of 1077 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:50.239 it I don't even understand the repercussions of yet, and we're gonna have to 1078 01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:53.840 wait and see. And I think that's really cool too, the fact that 1079 01:12:53.880 --> 01:13:00.039 they're trusting the future storytellers in the Spotlight Arena to pick up the ball and 1080 01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:02.840 run with Maya story, and run with fifth story and see where it goes 1081 01:13:02.840 --> 01:13:06.439 from here, you know, yeah, I definitely think so. I'm I'm 1082 01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:11.159 nervous about that, just because with the MCU so much has been like started 1083 01:13:11.199 --> 01:13:15.760 and then canceled. And I do know there is a strong fan reaction of 1084 01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.079 dislike to the show so far. I think there's a lot of fans who 1085 01:13:18.079 --> 01:13:21.039 abolutely love it. I think it's a strong majority, but there are I 1086 01:13:21.039 --> 01:13:24.279 guess, I don't sure, some people of legitimate reasons, but there's also 1087 01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:28.199 some folks who are I had one person who was like, oh, this 1088 01:13:28.239 --> 01:13:30.239 is all woke nonsense. Who's trying to convince me there's an amputee I should 1089 01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:34.119 hate this show. And his reasoning was, if you remember, she loses 1090 01:13:34.119 --> 01:13:40.560 her leg in the car accident, and it happens because like you know, 1091 01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:43.960 when the car breaks, there's this like large shard of glass that goes into 1092 01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:47.680 her leg, and that is very realistic in terms of like if you cut 1093 01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:51.399 the femeral artery that goes to the leg, and like that leg loses blood, 1094 01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:55.840 like it's going to die pretty quickly and like you will have to amputate 1095 01:13:55.880 --> 01:13:59.920 it. People I know are coming after me and being like no, but 1096 01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:03.239 like a windshield doesn't break like that. A large piece of glass wouldn't come 1097 01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:08.000 out like that, and so therefore everything about the show is ruined and terrible. 1098 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:12.800 And I was like, look, maybe that's true about the windshield, 1099 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:17.079 but I just couldn't possibly care less like that. But my point being with 1100 01:14:17.119 --> 01:14:20.840 all that, given all of the dislike that it's generating, as well as 1101 01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:25.359 just like some of the discussions around like the Marvels and other stuff, I 1102 01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:28.000 am worried that we're not going to get as many of these stories as we 1103 01:14:28.039 --> 01:14:30.000 want. Sure, or it may well be that we get it entirely in 1104 01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:33.039 Daredevil's story, which I think will be great. I Echo gets to be 1105 01:14:33.079 --> 01:14:35.840 a big part of it. But yeah, I like you. I'm very 1106 01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:40.640 excited. We'll talk more about that in the motu section, and just yeah, 1107 01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:42.600 it just makes me really happy as a Marvel fan. And I'm now 1108 01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:45.960 going to go back and watch what If. And Loki isn't my show, 1109 01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:47.039 so I probably won't watch that, but I'll watch some other stuff. Do 1110 01:14:47.239 --> 01:14:50.880 man so much, and that's our time travel difference, But man, I 1111 01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:56.000 love Loki so much. It's Loki is a show built for me. Like 1112 01:14:56.079 --> 01:15:02.039 the it I hope you, I hope one day you'll get to see it. 1113 01:15:02.079 --> 01:15:04.359 And they are all you'll decide to see it because I think it ends 1114 01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:09.359 so beautifully and in really cool way. It just has some really coolness to 1115 01:15:09.399 --> 01:15:13.600 it. I may well, but I also think that's another to me, 1116 01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:15.720 a part of this, like this is going to be getting back to all 1117 01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:18.680 the topic because with you and I, like you and Paul were really bad 1118 01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:21.520 at ending things at least the time we're not trying to get the last word 1119 01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:25.319 on each other and in a disagreement, which poor Jeff used to have to 1120 01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:30.159 moderate those. But like, to me, I think one of the there's 1121 01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:34.880 a difference between a large connected universe where all these individual stories happen, but 1122 01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:39.439 like you're always remembering that's happening in a world after the blip for example, 1123 01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:44.359 you know, and like that's changed the world that's different than everything is feeding 1124 01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:48.399 into this larger overall plot, you know. And I think like if I 1125 01:15:48.399 --> 01:15:51.880 found out that Wilson Fisk was somehow working for King in some way or you 1126 01:15:51.920 --> 01:15:55.199 know, like that kind of thing, I'd be like, Eh, I 1127 01:15:55.199 --> 01:16:00.840 don't want this right, but but yeah, I I I do really love 1128 01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:02.159 that. It is just the I'm trying to think where in the world that 1129 01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:05.439 was going with that. What were we talking about right before the Loki? 1130 01:16:06.199 --> 01:16:11.640 Oh? Yeah, so the point the point that being, I think another 1131 01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:16.800 advantage of that is if I don't need to watch every single thing to understand 1132 01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:20.720 every single thing, they can take more risks. They can have a show 1133 01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:25.800 like Loki, which time travel people will love and isn't for me. Well 1134 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:31.359 they might. They might have a show that's just Matt Murdoch and she Hulk 1135 01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:36.560 trying cases together and they get in a fight once every three episodes, but 1136 01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:40.680 it's just a lego drab and I love that a lot of other people won't, 1137 01:16:40.680 --> 01:16:42.920 you know, Like there's just so many things, like we can have 1138 01:16:43.039 --> 01:16:45.520 things that are not made for everybody in a lot in the Spotlight. Yes, 1139 01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:48.840 yeah, And I think that's that's what I was saying earlier. I 1140 01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:53.800 think we've all strived for this connected universe to be even more connected. But 1141 01:16:53.880 --> 01:16:57.239 I think there's a balance to that connection. And I think that's something that 1142 01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:00.920 we've we've known for a long time that there's a bad to the connection. 1143 01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:06.479 But I think that they're they're recalibrating that right now at Marvel because of the 1144 01:17:06.520 --> 01:17:11.279 sort of lack of success of some of these Because I don't think they've made 1145 01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:15.560 you when you compare phases four and five. People have talked about the overload 1146 01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:19.279 or whatever, but when you compare phases four and five, there's not that 1147 01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:24.039 much. I don't think there's more television than there was during the Defenders. 1148 01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:29.920 I think it's probably very similar amount of television when you when you include Defenders 1149 01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:35.479 and Agents of Shield and all that and and Runaways and but back then they 1150 01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:40.840 let things be separate a little more, and it's something I didn't like about 1151 01:17:40.840 --> 01:17:43.880 it. I was like, more connected, But now I'm like, you 1152 01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:45.640 know what, they tried it. They tried to be more connected, and 1153 01:17:45.680 --> 01:17:49.640 they lost half their audience because like so many people were like, there's so 1154 01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:53.319 many people out there, like like myself, that's a completest. And I 1155 01:17:53.319 --> 01:17:56.319 don't like watching the next thing until I saw the last thing. And so 1156 01:17:56.399 --> 01:17:59.960 if a thing comes out and it's not really my thing and I fall off 1157 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:03.560 and I don't watch whatever, then I feel like I've lost a rung in 1158 01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:08.199 the ladder. And the more connected things are, the more that is. 1159 01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:14.119 And I think they're because more people feel that way. It's it's it's good 1160 01:18:14.199 --> 01:18:17.439 to have shows for different audiences. And I think they're they're they're moving towards 1161 01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:21.960 that. I think, Yeah, I feel like the kind of three main 1162 01:18:23.920 --> 01:18:26.520 universes that, like, you know, between the two of us and like 1163 01:18:26.520 --> 01:18:30.760 your other podcast that we cover, Marvel, Star Wars and Star Trek are 1164 01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:32.840 all wrestling with how to do this? You know for a sure show that 1165 01:18:32.920 --> 01:18:35.680 there's a lot of this conversation and just it's gonna be fascinating to see how 1166 01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:40.319 it all comes around. So well, thank you again, Matt. Yeah, 1167 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:43.800 who are members? You know, five dollars a month, You get 1168 01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:46.760 ad free content, you get bonus content, and you help support us. 1169 01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:49.479 It is fantastic. All the information about how to join is right there in 1170 01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:54.920 the show notes. Please do so. But also I assume if you're listening 1171 01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:57.279 to this, you probably already know about the MCU cast. I think it 1172 01:18:57.359 --> 01:19:01.560 is the absolute premiere, as I think it's the mere superhero podcast out there, 1173 01:19:01.560 --> 01:19:04.920 but absolutely the MCU one. Matt, tell us a little bit about 1174 01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:08.560 MCU cast or where you can find it. Thanks man, it's very kind. 1175 01:19:09.079 --> 01:19:12.760 Yeah, we were at the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast. Everywhere you get 1176 01:19:12.760 --> 01:19:16.159 podcasts, so if you like the Marvel cinemat Universe, we talk about it 1177 01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:19.960 every week, and you know, it's just it always surprises me. Sometimes 1178 01:19:19.960 --> 01:19:23.119 there's not content for a few weeks and I'm like, well, will we 1179 01:19:23.159 --> 01:19:26.039 talk about And then we get on and we're like, there's always so much 1180 01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:29.399 to talk about. There's so many ways to go with it. And honestly, 1181 01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:31.439 a lot of that is thanks to our listeners who's writing a lot of 1182 01:19:31.479 --> 01:19:36.119 things, and we get great feedback that like spurs on cool convers excuse me, 1183 01:19:36.359 --> 01:19:41.239 cool conversations that we never would have had otherwise. And I think I 1184 01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:43.840 just I love being on the show. I love the community, and I 1185 01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:46.840 love love, love making it for you, for you listeners out there. 1186 01:19:46.880 --> 01:19:50.039 So if you like the Marvel Cinemat Givers, check us out Marvel Cinemat Giver's 1187 01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:54.960 podcast. And there is of course other podcasts that Matt's very involved with where 1188 01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:58.920 you can hear him give like good updates about news that's happening in the multiverse. 1189 01:19:59.159 --> 01:20:02.359 You can hear him heretical slander against Star Wars while he's talking about another 1190 01:20:02.439 --> 01:20:05.279 Star show. Gives like a quick rundown about some of the other stuff you're 1191 01:20:05.279 --> 01:20:09.840 on. Yeah, one of the ones we're really really focused on this year, 1192 01:20:09.840 --> 01:20:15.399 building Up is Multiverse News, and it is a week week, week 1193 01:20:15.439 --> 01:20:19.760 to week news news show where we really put a ton of work in honestly, 1194 01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:25.680 like it's it's the most work intensive show we've done on that I've done 1195 01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:30.760 on the network, because we actually like research and write the news up and 1196 01:20:30.880 --> 01:20:35.159 like have I'm the sort of anchor on the show, and I read read 1197 01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:39.800 the news and then we discussed and have sort of a panel show about all 1198 01:20:39.800 --> 01:20:43.119 the news stories that are going on that week, and we expand a little 1199 01:20:43.119 --> 01:20:45.039 far beyond those three universes you mentioned. We do talk about all those, 1200 01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:49.600 but we also get into everything else just in mostly in the geeky realm, 1201 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:54.039 but sometimes we're just talking about what's going on in the box office and what 1202 01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:57.039 we like, know, Taylor Swift was big in the box office this year. 1203 01:20:57.760 --> 01:20:59.880 You know, Barbie was big in the box office this year. So 1204 01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:04.439 Urbenheimer and Taylor Swift became common topics on the show. Like you know, 1205 01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:09.359 it's sort of just whatever is happening in pop culture we'll kind of get into 1206 01:21:09.399 --> 01:21:12.600 and that good even even did dip our toe into video games and stuff. 1207 01:21:12.600 --> 01:21:15.279 So it's just Multiverse News. Any we say, we're your your source for 1208 01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:19.199 information about all your favorite fictional universes. So that's one we're really trying to 1209 01:21:19.560 --> 01:21:21.680 grow and we're really putting a lot of effort into. So I hope you 1210 01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:25.840 guys will check that one out too, And then everything else is at strandedpana 1211 01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:29.640 dot com. We have something for every every universe and every show. Probably 1212 01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:32.119 at this point something's going on. So yep, yeah, there's so much 1213 01:21:32.119 --> 01:21:35.840 great stuff to check out there. Stranded Panage does so many wonderful things. 1214 01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:40.439 There's Animation Deliberation, which does all this stuff about animated stuff. There's the 1215 01:21:40.439 --> 01:21:44.199 Star Trek Universe pot Star Trek is Yeah, there's a Star Trek Universe podcast. 1216 01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:46.560 There are just so many good things you guys got going on. Source 1217 01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:49.159 Notes, which is all about like the book. Yes, source pages, 1218 01:21:49.479 --> 01:21:51.800 shorts pages, thank you, thank you, And of course this is an 1219 01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:56.680 Ethical Pana podcast. You can find this along with Star Wars Generations by going 1220 01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.760 to the Ethical Pana dot com or by searching for us on the True Story 1221 01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:03.680 FM Family web web podcasts. Love contact Information. What do you think of 1222 01:22:03.680 --> 01:22:06.479 the echo? I already did one kind of quick reaction. This is a 1223 01:22:06.520 --> 01:22:10.720 little bit more of a deeper, particularly for more the that was more focusing 1224 01:22:10.720 --> 01:22:13.199 on representation. This was more about like the comic book side of things. 1225 01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:15.319 But I would love to hear what you all have to say. Our contact 1226 01:22:15.399 --> 01:22:18.199 is in the show notes. Please check all that out. Please really seriously 1227 01:22:18.239 --> 01:22:21.039 considered becoming a member because it's such a good way to support us, such 1228 01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:24.680 a good way to help keep things going, and you get a lot of 1229 01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:27.560 great content. We're going to be starting a book club pretty soon for Star 1230 01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:30.800 Wars Greed, possibly for Superherotics as well, so members stick around on the 1231 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:34.880 behalf of but for everybody else, I'm half of myself and Matt. We have spoken